There's an alarming trend now where people seem to think The Alpha Legion is interesting. I assure you they are not. By which I mean The Alpha Legion is not secretly working for the good of The Emperor. The Alphas can be summed up in the cliché "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." This is a very common theme in 40K. Indeed, is there a more told story in 40K fiction than the one of a Governor/General/ Inquisitor/guy doing something forbidden but what he feels is good for humanity and then being eventually damned for it?

Let's take a step back now. Many argue that the reasons behind a lot of the traitor primarchs treason were pretty immature under closer scrutiny. And indeed that is true. So despite what I said Alpharius (or Omegon) actually have the most intriguing reason. They were told by a bunch of Aliens that if The Emperor won The Heresy it would lead to 10,000 years of grim darkness and war...turns out that was true however I would argue that if a bunch of frikkin Xenos you never met tell you something like that you still stick by your father.

Nonetheless, they made their choice, they betrayed the emperor: not because they were chaos worshipping scum, not because they didn’t believe in the Imperium, not because they were angry but because it was the pragmatic thing to do for the supposedly most pragmatic legion. That is interesting actually.

Then The Dropsite Massacre happened. It was not just the death of 3 Legions but the death of there being some other side to the Alpha Legion. You don’t just kill 300,000 of your brothers and just carry on. There’s no coming back from that, any marine of conscience would have defected as soon as he heard that plan. That is literally were they just became another Traitor Legion. They can now be heard screaming vile praise to the Chaos Gods and growing tentacles and so on. So I admit the Legion’s History is interesting but their current status isn’t. They are exactly what they appear to be: Chaos Space Marines.

KamikazeCanuck wrote: They can now be heard screaming vile praise to the Chaos Gods and growing tentacles and so on. So I admit the Legion’s History is interesting but their current status isn’t. They are exactly what they appear to be: Chaos Space Marines.

Do you have any proof of this, out of curiosity?

Interesting.

Where is the mystery?

They played 007 until they didn't recognize who is who.

stop the trend. Omega marines FTW, Alpha Marines suck! or Alpha Marines FTW, Omega marines suck?

Seaward wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote: They can now be heard screaming vile praise to the Chaos Gods and growing tentacles and so on. So I admit the Legion’s History is interesting but their current status isn’t. They are exactly what they appear to be: Chaos Space Marines.

Do you have any proof of this, out of curiosity?

The Seige of Vraks.


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The Seige of Vraks is actually a very good example of The Alpha Legion's standard operating procedure. (and a Imperial rebellion at that).
99% of the Vraksian rebels didn't realize they were rebels. So when the Legion infiltrates they needed to pose as Loyalists. They then bolster the rebels forces killing the Emperor's actual mandated troops, the kriegers, all while yelling their battle cry "For The Emperor" i'm sure.
That's probably how rumors of their supposed loyalty get started but I assure you they were they to killl some Imperials. (and called in huge forces of Korne and Nurgle backup to boot.)

My pet theory is that the Alpha Legion is loyal to the Emperor's ultimate plans.

The Alpha Legion acts as control rods in a kind of human psychic growth reactor. The Chaos gods must remain distracted by the Horus Heresy and the aftermath. Should the Imperium gain too much of an upper hand, more systems will fall to chaos as people have more idle time to fall victim to psychic corruption. The constant warfare is beneficial to the psychic growth of mankind least mankind fall victim to Chaos as the Eldar did.

On the other hand, if Chaos gains the upper hand, civilization will collapse, and Chaos will gain direct control. A delicate ballence must be maintained. Mankind's psychic transformation will take thousands of years. It is all part of the Emperor's plan.

Warprat

Has Alpharius seen this thread yet? He has been pretty down on Chaos lately . . .

I have also noticed an explosion of Alpha Legion interest. While the XXth Legion is indeed interesting, I don't think that it's due to them being somehow loyal to the Emperor.

The Alpha Legion is loyal to themselves.

I don't think their fluff has ever been that they're secretly loyal to the Emperor.

I believe their fluff has always been that they were made aware prior to the Horus Heresy that humanity simply can't win against Chaos, and that the shorter the conflict, the less painful it would be - and also the less chance there would be that the entire galaxy would be destroyed. They were told that victory for Horus meant humanity would die off in two generations, and take the Chaos gods with them, while victory for the Emperor meant twenty thousand years of slow death for humanity, and the destruction of the entire galaxy. They sided with quick and painless.

Yes, the Daemon Prince Voldorius is fighting for the Emperor, he's just in really really really deep cover...

Basically KamikazeCanuck is right. There's a reason John Grammaticus decided to throw himself out an airlock.

Nurglitch wrote:Yes, the Daemon Prince Voldorius is fighting for the Emperor, he's just in really really really deep cover...

Basically KamikazeCanuck is right. There's a reason John Grammaticus decided to throw himself out an airlock.

Again, Alpha Legion fluff doesn't suggest they're fighting for the Emperor, only that they're not, ultimately, fighting for Chaos.

[quote=Seaward
Again, Alpha Legion fluff doesn't suggest they're fighting for the Emperor, only that they're not, ultimately, fighting for Chaos.

Seaward wrote:I don't think their fluff has ever been that they're secretly loyal to the Emperor.

I believe their fluff has always been that they were made aware prior to the Horus Heresy that humanity simply can't win against Chaos, and that the shorter the conflict, the less painful it would be - and also the less chance there would be that the entire galaxy would be destroyed. They were told that victory for Horus meant humanity would die off in two generations, and take the Chaos gods with them, while victory for the Emperor meant twenty thousand years of slow death for humanity, and the destruction of the entire galaxy. They sided with quick and painless.

Quick and painless and chaos in the same sentence? Sorry if they bougth into this, they're dumb.
Chaos doesn't need maknind. Their existance began when old ones and C'tan roamed the galaxy.

A reason to save the galaxy at the cost of mankind?
Lets see they are space marines and shall protect mankind. => screw the galaxy is the response I would expect.

1hadhq wrote:

Seaward wrote:I don't think their fluff has ever been that they're secretly loyal to the Emperor.

I believe their fluff has always been that they were made aware prior to the Horus Heresy that humanity simply can't win against Chaos, and that the shorter the conflict, the less painful it would be - and also the less chance there would be that the entire galaxy would be destroyed. They were told that victory for Horus meant humanity would die off in two generations, and take the Chaos gods with them, while victory for the Emperor meant twenty thousand years of slow death for humanity, and the destruction of the entire galaxy. They sided with quick and painless.

Quick and painless and chaos in the same sentence? Sorry if they bougth into this, they're dumb.
Chaos doesn't need maknind. Their existance began when old ones and C'tan roamed the galaxy.

A reason to save the galaxy at the cost of mankind?
Lets see they are space marines and shall protect mankind. => screw the galaxy is the response I would expect.

Yep, they bought it, and it's not exactly a bad thing to buy into. Humanity's not going to win, in the 40K universe. The Golden Throne's broken beyond repair, and as soon as it goes, so goes human interstellar travel; Chaos gets stronger, not weaker, as the years go by; the three known hive fleets may very well simply be the tiny tip of a very large iceberg for all we know.

Plus, I believe, though I'm not 100% sure, that at least three of the four Chaos gods are merely manifestations of human emotion, correct?

Alpha Legion recruited more on the basis of intelligence and lateral thinking than any other Legion, as far as I'm aware. They're the think-outside-the-box guys. If they became unshakably convinced that the Imperium was doomed no matter what they did, but that they could prevent a vast balance of human suffering and preserve a lot of the galaxy by switching sides, they're exactly the Legion that would not have the knee-jerk, conditioned, "Shut up I kill you!" Space Marine response.

Seaward wrote:



Yep, they bought it, and it's not exactly a bad thing to buy into. Humanity's not going to win, in the 40K universe. The Golden Throne's broken beyond repair, and as soon as it goes, so goes human interstellar travel; Chaos gets stronger, not weaker, as the years go by; the three known hive fleets may very well simply be the tiny tip of a very large iceberg for all we know.

Plus, I believe, though I'm not 100% sure, that at least three of the four Chaos gods are merely manifestations of human emotion, correct?

Alpha Legion recruited more on the basis of intelligence and lateral thinking than any other Legion, as far as I'm aware. They're the think-outside-the-box guys. If they became unshakably convinced that the Imperium was doomed no matter what they did, but that they could prevent a vast balance of human suffering and preserve a lot of the galaxy by switching sides, they're exactly the Legion that would not have the knee-jerk, conditioned, "Shut up I kill you!" Space Marine response.

Ok its not bad, its terrible.
The galaxy is screwed if any race fails like the eldar did. So how do you expect to save the galaxy in absence of mankind?
Because, chaos don't need them and there is no guarantee of chaos ceasing to exist as they may find new victims.
The rulebook clearly put M41 at the point where the IoM's fall would ruin the galaxy.
I agree it was reasonable to contact the AL, but then I would not buy into visions as those aren't of a pre-set future but a possible one.
And chaos seems to be aware of the use of visions and alters them sometimes. IMO the cabal was screwed when they attempted
to know of the future and alter it. Eldar try this all the time, and did they prevent their fall?

Seaward wrote:
Plus, I believe, though I'm not 100% sure, that at least three of the four Chaos gods are merely manifestations of human emotion, correct?

The Chaos Gods are the reflection in the warp of humanity's emotions yes. But they've grown powerful enough to be more than the sum of their parts and capable of actively encouraging the emotions that empower them.

At the most basic level (Yes, basic. People will quibble with this.)

Khorne is a reflection of and empowered by humanity's Anger, Pride and Hatred.
Tzeentch is a reflection of and empowered by humanity's Hope, Ambition and Will to Survive.
Nurgle is a reflection of and empowered by humanity's Fear, Despair and Apathy.
Slaanesh is a reflection of and empowered by humanity's Lust, Obsession and Desire for Excess.

In the warp these basic emotions and desires and urges are taken to grotesque extremes.

Mind you, the Four Great Powers aren't the only reflections. Just the most powerful. ALL of humanity's emotions are reflected in the warp.

1hadhq wrote:
Ok its not bad, its terrible.
The galaxy is screwed if any race fails like the eldar did. So how do you expect to save the galaxy in absence of mankind?
Because, chaos don't need them and there is no guarantee of chaos ceasing to exist as they may find new victims.
The rulebook clearly put M41 at the point where the IoM's fall would ruin the galaxy.
I agree it was reasonable to contact the AL, but then I would not buy into visions as those aren't of a pre-set future but a possible one.
And chaos seems to be aware of the use of visions and alters them sometimes. IMO the cabal was screwed when they attempted
to know of the future and alter it. Eldar try this all the time, and did they prevent their fall?

You sound like you actually think humanity ultimately wins in the 40K universe. It doesn't.

Chaos does in fact need humanity. Think of human emotion as the engine that powers Chaos; without it, would Chaos cease to be? Dunno. I think so, though. Someone better-versed on what exactly Chaos is could probably answer that.

If your point is that Alpha Legion could've been duped by Chaos into switching sides, sure, it's entirely possible. It doesn't change their motivations, though, nor the fact that they avoid the Eye of Terror, aren't favored with a bunch of mutations, and pretty generally just do their own thing without regard to what the Ruinous Powers would want them to be doing.

More than merely human emotions are reflected in the warp.

Seaward wrote:
You sound like you actually think humanity ultimately wins in the 40K universe. It doesn't.

5th ed rulebook page 116 disagrees with you.

Seaward wrote:
Chaos does in fact need humanity. Think of human emotion as the engine that powers Chaos; without it, would Chaos cease to be? Dunno. I think so, though. Someone better-versed on what exactly Chaos is could probably answer that.

Again, 5th ed rulebook page 101.
Chaos needs humanity to fail to take over.
It didn't need humans for 60.000.000 years after the war in heaven.
Codex Necrons explains the creation of chaos and back in these days were no humans ( as far as we know of ).

Seaward wrote:
If your point is that Alpha Legion could've been duped by Chaos into switching sides, sure, it's entirely possible. It doesn't change their motivations, though, nor the fact that they avoid the Eye of Terror, aren't favored with a bunch of mutations, and pretty generally just do their own thing without regard to what the Ruinous Powers would want them to be doing.

Thats how I see it. Visions carry the risk of chaos altering them.
Have to agree with the OP that AL isn't considered 'loyal' to the throne.
They kept their behaviour and stayed outside the warp, hidden and secretly following their ?own? goals.
But the ruinous powers aren't called ruinous for nothing. They corrupt any many A-legionaires should be minions of chaos now.

1hadhq wrote:But the ruinous powers aren't called ruinous for nothing. They corrupt any many A-legionaires should be minions of chaos now.

See, e.g., Voldorius.

Good point.

Going overboard with slaughter secured him a place on a spear as trophy of the white scars tough.....

Sadly, or not, all conjecture.

I'm fairly sure GW/BL/DA will never tell us exactly what's going on, so, it will be up to us, and everyone will be wrong and right at the same time!

(Does current background even have The Legion at the Dropsite Massacre?)

The reality (ha!) of it is more likely that The Legion thought they knew what was best for Humanity, and maybe for the Imperium, and it didn't quite work out as planned.

"Too clever by half", yes?

And now, some factions are 'loyal', some are 'traitor' and the whole thing's a mess!

1hadhq wrote:
5th ed rulebook page 116 disagrees with you.

5th edition rulebook page 116 is a map. I'm not sure what point you think it makes? It certainly doesn't say that the Imperium ultimately wins. If you're taking the first-person propaganda writing as indicative of objective assessment of the Imperium's situation, I dunno what to tell you.

Again, 5th ed rulebook page 101.
Chaos needs humanity to fail to take over.

Page 101 states that Chaos will use humanity as a conduit to bring the Warp into "real" space - if that's the part you're referring to. Which, of course, means that Alpha Legion working to kill off humanity so that that can't happen directly reinforces my point.

But I'm glad you've provided me with some core rulebook fluff to back it up!

Seaward wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
5th ed rulebook page 116 disagrees with you.

5th edition rulebook page 116 is a map. I'm not sure what point you think it makes? It certainly doesn't say that the Imperium ultimately wins. If you're taking the first-person propaganda writing as indicative of objective assessment of the Imperium's situation, I dunno what to tell you.

Maybe don't get distracted from the map and look at the text-box?

If were going to cast anything down as propaganda, there won't be any fluff.
But its ok,
the poster above you has already solved it for us.

We must believe him, he IS Alpharius...

To echo OP along a slightly divergent strand of thought, I don't like all this "CSM are actually anti-heroes" stuff. Aaron Dembski-Bowden is doing this with the Night Lords and, while his writing is good, it's pretty annoying to see these evil-doers portrayed as noble. Similarly, the Alpha Legionnaires are CHAOS Space Marines, not just disgruntled Space Marines. They are in fact BAD GUYS even by GrimDark standards. If you want anti-heroes, please think of the Dark Angels and leave our beloved villains as villains.

1hadhq wrote:
Maybe don't get distracted from the map and look at the text-box?

Right, the one written in first person? By that logic, it's also completely canon that the orks will in fact fight and kill everything in the galaxy, because they constantly say they will. That seems contradictory to the notion that the Imperium eventually wins, yet they're both published in the rulebooks!

Some sections of the book are written from the perspective of the faction they represent. Generally speaking, whenever the author uses "we" rather than the third person, such is the case. Of course the Imperium doesn't think it's going to lose. Napoleon thought he was going to win Waterloo. Simply believing something doesn't make it factual.


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Manchu wrote:To echo OP along a slightly divergent strand of thought, I don't like all this "CSM are actually anti-heroes" stuff. Aaron Dembski-Bowden is doing this with the Night Lords and, while his writing is good, it's pretty annoying to see these evil-doers portrayed as noble. Similarly, the Alpha Legionnaires are CHAOS Space Marines, not just disgruntled Space Marines. They are in fact BAD GUYS even by GrimDark standards. If you want anti-heroes, please think of the Dark Angels and leave our beloved villains as villains.

They are unquestionably trying to kill off the Imperium, I'll grant you that much. If they're the bad guys, though, who are the good guys?

@Seaward: Whether anyone likes it or not, 40k is EXPLICITLY about the Imperium. To quote Jervis and Matt Ward, every thing else constitutes "secondary characaters." The forces of the Imperium are the protagonists and as such their persepctive dominates the morality of the game. The "good guys" are not good because they reflect any 21st century IRL notions of morality (as Abnett and Dembski-Bowden seem to like) but rather because it is a key assumption of the universe--"because the game's creators said so." There isn't much room for intrinsic moral nuance in the GrimDark. Most simply put, being "bad" means opposing the Imperium. The defniitive opposition to the Imperium (or "cosmos") is Chaos.

Manchu wrote:@Seaward: Whether anyone likes it or not, 40k is EXPLICITLY about the Imperium. To quote Jervis and Matt Ward, every thing else constitutes "secondary characaters." The forces of the Imperium are the protagonists and as such their persepctive dominates the morality of the game. The "good guys" are not good because they reflect any 21st century IRL notions of morality (as Abnett and Dembski-Bowden seem to like) but rather because it is a key assumption of the universe--"because the game's creators said so." There isn't much room for intrinsic moral nuance in the GrimDark. Most simply put, being "bad" means opposing the Imperium. The defniitive opposition to the Imperium (or "cosmos") is Chaos.

I'm not sure that's true. Their perspective dominates...well, the perspective of the game. I've never seen Jervis nor Ward state that the Imperium are in fact the good guys, but simply the guys who the story is mainly about. That's certainly true. But the Imperium being the focus of the story doesn't automatically mean the Imperium are the good guys. At the risk of Godwining the thread, and using an extreme example, the HBO Films movie "Conspiracy" is about the Wannsee Conference; that's it's one and only focus. I wouldn't say that simply because it's told from the participants' perspective it should be taken to mean that they're the "good guys" of the story.

Attempting to speak from any position of absolute authority on this subject is foolish.

Let me rephrase what I'm saying: In the GrimDark, there are no identifiable "good" or "bad" guys by IRL standards. Even the Ultramarines are willing to destroy entire planetary populations at the end of the day. This is beause the moral perspective is ENTIRELY alien from our own, as opposed to your Nazi example. With 40k, we have to step into the shoes of the protagonists if we're going to have any understanding of it. We have to assume their values and goals. Otherwise, 40k loses all of its drama and peril.

Manchu wrote:Let me rephrase what I'm saying: In the GrimDark, there are no identifiable "good" or "bad" guys by IRL standards. Even the Ultramarines are willing to destroy entire planetary populations at the end of the day. This is beause the moral perspective is ENTIRELY alien from our own, as opposed to your Nazi example. With 40k, we have to step into the shoes of the protagonists if we're going to have any understanding of it. We have to assume their values and goals. Otherwise, 40k loses all of its drama and peril.

Perhaps for some. I personally find that I can understand the values, motivations, whatevers of a given faction without stepping into their shoes. Honestly, I find it arguably more dramatic to not do so; for all their ends-justify-the-means descent into totalitarian horror, the Imperium's still not going to pull it out in the end, and that's what I like about them. Tragedies are interesting, and offer no shortage of drama.

Which, incidentally, is also one of the reasons I like Alpha Legion.

Seaward wrote:

Right, the one written in first person? By that logic, it's also completely canon that the orks will in fact fight and kill everything in the galaxy, because they constantly say they will. That seems contradictory to the notion that the Imperium eventually wins, yet they're both published in the rulebooks!

Some sections of the book are written from the perspective of the faction they represent. Generally speaking, whenever the author uses "we" rather than the third person, such is the case. Of course the Imperium doesn't think it's going to lose. Napoleon thought he was going to win Waterloo. Simply believing something doesn't make it factual.

Somehow, you ignore the orks disability to spell defeat....
And it is canon ( for orks ) to think they win. Since every single faction is entitled to believe in their ultimate victory.

Didin't refute the possibilty to loose ( which is unlikely and you should remember what happened when GW put cadia on stake )
but I deem to claim the same chance as all the others. Thus official backup in a BRB is canon.

The Imperium is not in the position of Napoleon Bonaparte.
It may look like a point to make, but you know what: chaos is as wrong as everyone else since its creatures also believe they win.
So now were back to possibilities.
N°1 undisputable contender is GW's intend to keep the eternal war setting. There is no interest in a winner. Guess its a draw and always
will be. Fact: The timeline is in a stasis field.

Happier with facts?

@Seaward: I totally disagree. The audience experiences drama by assuming perspectives. They can, of course, assume multiple perspectives throughout a story. Indeed, the resulting tension heightens drama. But if the audience identifies with neither the protagonits nor the antagonists, the result is a dramatic failure. With regard to the conflict, the audience says "so what?"

Manchu wrote:To echo OP along a slightly divergent strand of thought, I don't like all this "CSM are actually anti-heroes" stuff. Aaron Dembski-Bowden is doing this with the Night Lords and, while his writing is good, it's pretty annoying to see these evil-doers portrayed as noble.

Even back 20 years ago in the Lost and Damned and Slaves to Darkness books, one of the big themes of Chaos is that the chaos powers feed on corruptions of positive motives. I think it's always been implied that the traitor legions originally fell for what were noble reasons (other than the Wold Eaters, who have always been just bloodthirsty).

I think that having villains who are Evil just to be Evil is boring - villains who think they're heroic are much more compelling. Plus, in the real world you don't have moustache-twirling villains who are Evil because they are Evil; most people see themselves as good, or as defending themselves while being no worse than anyone else, or are just indifferent to morality. Good 'ol Adolf in WW2 believed that he was saving the German race from destruction, he saw himself as the last desperate hope for salvation, not as any kind of villain.

Warprat wrote:[quote=Seaward
Again, Alpha Legion fluff doesn't suggest they're fighting for the Emperor, only that they're not, ultimately, fighting for Chaos.

This from Warhammer 40 Wiki:

Unlike the other Traitor Legions, most of the Alpha Legion does not reside in the Warp, but rather roams the galaxy in warbands of warriors, each of which is trained to act independently of each other in pursuit of their greater cause. In this way the Alpha Legion was by and large the only Traitor Legion not to succumb to the mutations of Chaos, an outcome that may also have been dictated by their continued secret loyalty to the Emperor of Mankind.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

I'm sure many of the warbands believe they are fighting only for Chaos...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Warprat wrote:
Again, Alpha Legion fluff doesn't suggest they're fighting for the Emperor, only that they're not, ultimately, fighting for Chaos.

This from Warhammer 40 Wiki:

Unlike the other Traitor Legions, most of the Alpha Legion does not reside in the Warp, but rather roams the galaxy in warbands of warriors, each of which is trained to act independently of each other in pursuit of their greater cause. In this way the Alpha Legion was by and large the only Traitor Legion not to succumb to the mutations of Chaos, an outcome that may also have been dictated by their continued secret loyalty to the Emperor of Mankind.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

I'm sure many of the warbands believe they are fighting only for Chaos...

There's no evidence to suggest there's any more loyalist Alpha Legion than say Iron Warriors or Night Lords. I would like to see one just one example of the Alphas fighting for the Emperor. There isn't one becauase they are just normal Chaos Space marines.

The Alpha Legion is not like an onion with many intriguing layers to peel away. They like.....idunno....brocholli or something. No peeling required!

Er, wrong.

The problem is that the old background is now entirely thrown into doubt by the new background.

This is why all the stuff you'd like to see hasn't been seen.

And, sadly, GW/BL haven't seen fit to illuminate us further, instead thinking that we need TWO Dark Angel HH books that still really haven't told us anything we didn't already know...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

There's no evidence to suggest there's any more loyalist Alpha Legion than say Iron Warriors or Night Lords. I would like to see one just one example of the Alphas fighting for the Emperor. There isn't one becauase they are just normal Chaos Space marines.

The Alpha Legion is not like an onion with many intriguing layers to peel away. They like.....idunno....brocholli or something. No peeling required!

Opinion stated as fact is still, sadly, only opinion.

Say, opinion is close to onion, isn't it?

Furthermore, why all the hate on the Legion?

Did they shout out "Definitely and most assuredly NOT For the Emperor!" when they were stealing your lunch money?

BearersOfSalvation wrote:I think that having villains who are Evil just to be Evil is boring - villains who think they're heroic are much more compelling.

Done. To. Death. Seriously, it's like everyone wanting to play the one noble dark elf after R. A. Salvatore's books took off. And as it turns out, the Drow in general are far more interesting than Drizzt. Same is true of the CSM, IMO. Word Bearers don't think what they're doing is "good" at all. They act according to a set of principles, of course, but none of them could be articulated as "good" except with the dullest sense of irony. There is a such thing as doing something for the sake of evil.

Alpharius wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Warprat wrote:
Again, Alpha Legion fluff doesn't suggest they're fighting for the Emperor, only that they're not, ultimately, fighting for Chaos.

This from Warhammer 40 Wiki:

Unlike the other Traitor Legions, most of the Alpha Legion does not reside in the Warp, but rather roams the galaxy in warbands of warriors, each of which is trained to act independently of each other in pursuit of their greater cause. In this way the Alpha Legion was by and large the only Traitor Legion not to succumb to the mutations of Chaos, an outcome that may also have been dictated by their continued secret loyalty to the Emperor of Mankind.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

I'm sure many of the warbands believe they are fighting only for Chaos...

There's no evidence to suggest there's any more loyalist Alpha Legion than say Iron Warriors or Night Lords. I would like to see one just one example of the Alphas fighting for the Emperor. There isn't one becauase they are just normal Chaos Space marines.

The Alpha Legion is not like an onion with many intriguing layers to peel away. They like.....idunno....brocholli or something. No peeling required!

Er, wrong.

The problem is that the old background is now entirely thrown into doubt by the new background.

This is why all the stuff you'd like to see hasn't been seen.

And, sadly, GW/BL haven't seen fit to illuminate us further, instead thinking that we need TWO Dark Angel HH books that still really haven't told us anything we didn't already know...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

There's no evidence to suggest there's any more loyalist Alpha Legion than say Iron Warriors or Night Lords. I would like to see one just one example of the Alphas fighting for the Emperor. There isn't one becauase they are just normal Chaos Space marines.

The Alpha Legion is not like an onion with many intriguing layers to peel away. They like.....idunno....brocholli or something. No peeling required!

Opinion stated as fact is still, sadly, only opinion.

Say, opinion is close to onion, isn't it?

Furthermore, why all the hate on the Legion?

Did they shout out "Definitely and most assuredly NOT For the Emperor!" when they were stealing your lunch money?

No, they shouted "For The Emperor" when stealing my lunch money ironicaly. That's why I need to get the word out there that they were lying.
Anyways, like I said originally there's a lot of thread and posts popping insinuating there's some other intersting motive or side to the Alpha Legion to which I reply no there isn't. They really are just some traitor legion and btw that's fine. Indeed threads like this usually draw out proof to the contrary of the original post but so far there's been none becasue the Alphas are brocholli.....or perhaps Vanilla is a better term?

Maybe, and in the end you might actually be right.

But right now... no one knows!

I am glad that DA wrote LEGION, as it has created a lot to talk about and ponder.

But I'm a bit worried that DA will never actually continue that story and we'll be left with a mess!

I dunno. I think the "maybe they're good . . . ?" line is just another aspect of their villainy. People inside the 40k universe might be confused by their subterfuge (although the Imperium doesn't seem to buy it) but I see no reason why IRL people shouldn't see through it.

OP is 100% correct, IMO.

OP and Manchu are 100% something.

Maybe even right.

Ignoring the 'game changer' that DA threw out there though is a bit 'sour grapes' and 'rain on parade' but, hey, whatever!

The Legion is a lot more interesting now.

Alpharius wrote:OP and Manchu are 100% something.

In agreement.

Alpharius wrote:The Legion is a lot more interesting now.

They've always been interesting. If they weren't interesting already, there's nothing Abnett could have done for them.

Manchu wrote:I dunno. I think the "maybe they're good . . . ?" line is just another aspect of their villainy. People inside the 40k universe might be confused by their subterfuge (although the Imperium doesn't seem to buy it) but I see no reason why IRL people shouldn't see through it.

OP is 100% correct, IMO.

Seriously you took the words right out of my mouth. I can see why Imperial Citizenry get confused. They don't have a list of Legions with Traitor and Loyal boxes checked but what's with the real life people?!! We do have a list!!!


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Alpharius wrote:OP and Manchu are 100% something.

Maybe even right.

Ignoring the 'game changer' that DA threw out there though is a bit 'sour grapes' and 'rain on parade' but, hey, whatever!

The Legion is a lot more interesting now.

He made their history more interesting but I would say nothing at all has changed with what they do post-heresy.


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Seaward wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Ok its not bad, its terrible.
The galaxy is screwed if any race fails like the eldar did. So how do you expect to save the galaxy in absence of mankind?
Because, chaos don't need them and there is no guarantee of chaos ceasing to exist as they may find new victims.
The rulebook clearly put M41 at the point where the IoM's fall would ruin the galaxy.
I agree it was reasonable to contact the AL, but then I would not buy into visions as those aren't of a pre-set future but a possible one.
And chaos seems to be aware of the use of visions and alters them sometimes. IMO the cabal was screwed when they attempted
to know of the future and alter it. Eldar try this all the time, and did they prevent their fall?

You sound like you actually think humanity ultimately wins in the 40K universe. It doesn't.

Chaos does in fact need humanity. Think of human emotion as the engine that powers Chaos; without it, would Chaos cease to be? Dunno. I think so, though. Someone better-versed on what exactly Chaos is could probably answer that.

If your point is that Alpha Legion could've been duped by Chaos into switching sides, sure, it's entirely possible. It doesn't change their motivations, though, nor the fact that they avoid the Eye of Terror, aren't favored with a bunch of mutations, and pretty generally just do their own thing without regard to what the Ruinous Powers would want them to be doing.

Correct. Chaos is actually one of the only factions that can never win. It needs sentient life to exist. The basic theme of Chaos is that it is always destoying itself (hence the the name chaos - no plan here). As for why the big 4 were around 60 million years ago you guys seemed to be really brainwashed by your eccelsiarchy sunday school. Despite what they may tell you there is other sentient life in the galaxy besides humans.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Alpharius wrote:OP and Manchu are 100% something.

Maybe even right.

Ignoring the 'game changer' that DA threw out there though is a bit 'sour grapes' and 'rain on parade' but, hey, whatever!

The Legion is a lot more interesting now.

He made their history more interesting but I would say nothing at all has changed with what they do post-heresy.

OK, sure.

Because it hasn't been written yet.

It is now an UNKNOWN.

The old background may or may not be relevant or even true anymore.

That's true, Alpharius, to the extent that GW could revamp any aspect of the (un)canon at any time. Yes, we live in fear! The general rule I use is "if it hasn't been explicitly contradicted, it stands."

It is known! That's what I'm saying!

Look I'm willing to throw you a bone here. It written many times that fully half of the legions went traitor. Now most just chalk that up to 9/9 and are done with it but those in the know know that when you take a closer look at those Dark Angels guys it was more like 8.5 loyalist to 9.5 traitor. Seriously, bad times for the Emperor.
So I could fully see them going down the route of Alphariius and Omegon having a Lion and Luthor type split (think I mentioned this before) but just like the Fallen any loyalist Omega Legionaires are pretty much just scattered and useless. Probably, hunted to the edge of extinction by the Alpha Legion.
Anyways, that would be a cool way for the story to go and hopefully they will do that but right now they're just vanilla CSMs.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:


As for why the big 4 were around 60 million years ago you guys seemed to be really brainwashed by your eccelsiarchy sunday school. Despite what they may tell you there is other sentient life in the galaxy besides humans.

You guys? Now I feel included in that message...

There is other life besides humans....for now. But there is and too.

BTW, the big 4 weren't always 4 (except you count Frazz and its big 5 actually..), if this 'how to save the galaxy from unneccessary pests'
dataslate i got from this nice brother marine in blue-green PA is correct.

right, and when the 4th came into existence humans were still running around stabbing each other with swords in never-ending war.

Ah, how times have changed.

Well, that's a complicated issue. The Chaos enties are non-temporal. So "when they came into being" or "they were no always around" is . . . inaccurate language at best. It's bizarre because, regarding the Materium, there is a point before and after the birth of Slaanesh. Regarding the Immaterium . . . ai, all best are off.

More correctly, the Chaos Gods are a-temporal, as their actions within space-time are bounded. The birth of Slaanesh into the Materium, for example.

It's been said before the Old Ones started meddling with it the warp was peaceful and tranquil. Then the Old Ones basically weaponized it to give them an edge over the C-Tan and that's when things literally went to go to hell.

Manchu wrote:Done. To. Death. Seriously, it's like everyone wanting to play the one noble dark elf after R. A. Salvatore's books took off. And as it turns out, the Drow in general are far more interesting than Drizzt.

Anything remotely realistic has been 'Done. To. Death', because even history books will have examples. I'm not sure what Drizzt has to do with this, he's nothing like what was being discussed. He didn't act thinking he was doing good but actually doing the opposite, he was just a 'good aligned' guy who's race is normally 'evil aligned'.

Same is true of the CSM, IMO. Word Bearers don't think what they're doing is "good" at all.

Word bearers thought what they were doing was "good" at the time of the original Heresy. They simply serve chaos now, but their original motives were not just 'oh HAI lets be EVUL today'.

They act according to a set of principles, of course, but none of them could be articulated as "good" except with the dullest sense of irony. There is a such thing as doing something for the sake of evil.

Articulating things as "good" in 40k is always filled with irony. Evil for the sake of evil is boring and really kind of silly.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Word bearers thought what they were doing was "good" at the time of the original Heresy. They simply serve chaos now, but their original motives were not just 'oh HAI lets be EVUL today'.

Just like the Alpha Legion!

KamikazeCanuck:

As mentioned in Codex: Chaos Daemons, while the birth of Slaanesh 'created' It, It had always existed. It's a chicken-egg paradox. If the Old Ones got the ball rolling, chances all they did was get the attention of the Ruinous Powers and bring them to wakefulness in the Materium. Mind you, that's another essential rede in 40k: you muck about with the Immaterium and sooner or later everything literally goes to Hell.

One of the things that Chaos is good at is concealing its true nature: Sarpedon is convinced the Architect of Fate is the Emperor, Ravenor habours a nascent Greater Daemon right under his nose (after demonstrating the same technique on some else), Horus is convinced the Emperor is planning to deify himself, and so on. Then there's the insinuation that the Emperor himself bargained with the Dark Powers to create the Primarchs. Just about the one thing you can be assurred of in 40k is that stuff happens because it amuses the Chaos Gods (this might just be an allegory...).

I think by that they mean the emotions and thoughts existed to create Slannesh but all of the gods had a point were those psychic energies reached critical mass and became sentient.
and yes everything Immaterium related is a perpetual chicken-egg paradox.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Word bearers thought what they were doing was "good" at the time of the original Heresy. They simply serve chaos now, but their original motives were not just 'oh HAI lets be EVUL today'.

Just like the Alpha Legion!

Now you're just trolling.

But as long as you're having fun...

The way I imagine it is that the Warp is at all times at once. Slaanesh has always been around, it's just he needed the power of the Eldar to fuel his ability to interact with the space-time continuum. I think there are thousands of small chaos gods, just waiting for people to give them enough energy to interact with the matereum. Yes, even good ones.

@BOS:

Originally, the protagonists were good guys who fought bad guys.

Then they were good guys who fought bad guys who -TWIST!- eventually became good guys.

Then they were good guys who -TWIST!- were actually the bad guys and they fought bad guys who -TWIST!- were actually the good guys.

Then they were bad guys who -TWIST!- actually wanted to be good guys and instead of fighting bad guys they -TWIST!- fought guys even worse than them but sometimes -TWIST!- had to fight the good guys who -TWIST!- eventually worked with them grudgingly.

TWIST TWIST TWIST TWIST

This is the evolution of hackwriting, the eclipse of characterization by storyline. The best example I can think of from recent TV is the tremendously overrated Battlestar Galactica. In 40k, you'll find that Abnett is squarely aligned with this school of thought and Demski-Bowden looks poised to follow him.

Bad guys who are bad guys are not boring when handled by talented writers. Supplying TWIST! after TWIST! after TWIST! does not make something more interesting. Just ask M. Night Shyamalan.

I, sadly, agree with the OP.

The Alpha Legion is just running around killing Imperials. There's not delicate balance, there's no ulterior motives, they're just a secretive legion. If anything, they're probably using this confusion to their advantage, striking down the Imperium's few morons who believe they're some sort of loyalist.

Alpha Legion is Traitor.
Alpha Legion is Chaos Space Marine.

But not Chaos Worshiper.


I believe Alpha Legion use powers of Chaos to own plan.
They think they are using Chaos but truces are unknown.

I have a personal conspiracy theory about the Alphas, and I think it fits the facts, but then again who doesn't?

Anyway, it goes like this.

After the events of Legion, the Alphas get together, talk it out, and decide to try to get Horus's trust and get close to him so they can take him out before the climactic showdown on Earth. This obviously fails, but explains the way they didn't seem to go for the throat as much as they could have during the Heresy itself. Meanwhile, to prove their loyalty, they're hanging out in warrior-cults, doing blood rituals, etc. all to "proove their loyalty" 'cause Horus knows how the Alphas roll about as well as anyone else.

This backfires. A lot of the Alphas start to seriously go over to Chaos as the taint sets in.

After the Heresy, the Alphas slowly regroup outside the Eye of Terror and try to decide what to do next from here. This is where it all goes to hell, and Alpha Legion civil war breaks out. You remember the Index Astartes story with the battle the Ultramarines deny ever fighting? That was the Alpha Legion version of Istvaan 3 where the loyalists and the heretics of the Alpha Legion break company and settle their differences in classic Warhammer fashion. The Ultras don't remember it because they were never there. After that fight, the renegades become the vile heretics we know and love/hate in the 41st millenium, and the surviving loyalists probably vanish into the many chapters created in the 2nd founding as deep cover, throwing away their previous identity as they continue to fight for humanity.

So, really nothing more than a theory that happens to fit the facts, but I like it and it hasn't been disproven yet, so I hope it continues to fit the facts.

Well whatever the truth is, Alpha Legion's plan must be working, I mean just look at this thread!

Confusion, misdirection, accusation and much hand-waving!

Filthy traitors, secret loyalists, or victims of retcon and lousy writing?

If this thread gets locked, it was all part of their plan I'm sure!!!

Manchu wrote:@BOS:

Originally, the protagonists were good guys who fought bad guys.

Then they were good guys who fought bad guys who -TWIST!- eventually became good guys.

Then they were good guys who -TWIST!- were actually the bad guys and they fought bad guys who -TWIST!- were actually the good guys.

Then they were bad guys who -TWIST!- actually wanted to be good guys and instead of fighting bad guys they -TWIST!- fought guys even worse than them but sometimes -TWIST!- had to fight the good guys who -TWIST!- eventually worked with them grudgingly.

TWIST TWIST TWIST TWIST

This is the evolution of hackwriting, the eclipse of characterization by storyline. The best example I can think of from recent TV is the tremendously overrated Battlestar Galactica. In 40k, you'll find that Abnett is squarely aligned with this school of thought and Demski-Bowden looks poised to follow him.

Bad guys who are bad guys are not boring when handled by talented writers. Supplying TWIST! after TWIST! after TWIST! does not make something more interesting. Just ask M. Night Shyamalan.

What a Twist!

The Alpha Legion may have had killed the Imperium humans to help the Imperium at one point, but now they are just evil for being evil. It may be silly, but GW has proved time and time again that Chaos in all forms are the goofy moustanched saturday morning cartoon villans of 40k. For the Most recent example: see Cadia.

Manchu wrote:@BOS:

Originally, the protagonists were good guys who fought bad guys.

Then they were good guys who fought bad guys who -TWIST!- eventually became good guys.

Then they were good guys who -TWIST!- were actually the bad guys and they fought bad guys who -TWIST!- were actually the good guys.

Then they were bad guys who -TWIST!- actually wanted to be good guys and instead of fighting bad guys they -TWIST!- fought guys even worse than them but sometimes -TWIST!- had to fight the good guys who -TWIST!- eventually worked with them grudgingly.

TWIST TWIST TWIST TWIST

This is the evolution of hackwriting, the eclipse of characterization by storyline. The best example I can think of from recent TV is the tremendously overrated Battlestar Galactica. In 40k, you'll find that Abnett is squarely aligned with this school of thought and Demski-Bowden looks poised to follow him.

Bad guys who are bad guys are not boring when handled by talented writers. Supplying TWIST! after TWIST! after TWIST! does not make something more interesting. Just ask M. Night Shyamalan.

Dude you just slagged my favorite show and writer in one breath.

Fraid I have to agree with BearersofSalvation. Villians with interesting motives and relatable backstorys are the difference between great fiction and total crap. Your confusing "twists" with character development. Cartoonish supervilliany is not compelling fiction.


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inquisitorfaust wrote:I have a personal conspiracy theory about the Alphas, and I think it fits the facts, but then again who doesn't?

Anyway, it goes like this.

After the events of Legion, the Alphas get together, talk it out, and decide to try to get Horus's trust and get close to him so they can take him out before the climactic showdown on Earth. This obviously fails, but explains the way they didn't seem to go for the throat as much as they could have during the Heresy itself. Meanwhile, to prove their loyalty, they're hanging out in warrior-cults, doing blood rituals, etc. all to "proove their loyalty" 'cause Horus knows how the Alphas roll about as well as anyone else.

This backfires. A lot of the Alphas start to seriously go over to Chaos as the taint sets in.

After the Heresy, the Alphas slowly regroup outside the Eye of Terror and try to decide what to do next from here. This is where it all goes to hell, and Alpha Legion civil war breaks out. You remember the Index Astartes story with the battle the Ultramarines deny ever fighting? That was the Alpha Legion version of Istvaan 3 where the loyalists and the heretics of the Alpha Legion break company and settle their differences in classic Warhammer fashion. The Ultras don't remember it because they were never there. After that fight, the renegades become the vile heretics we know and love/hate in the 41st millenium, and the surviving loyalists probably vanish into the many chapters created in the 2nd founding as deep cover, throwing away their previous identity as they continue to fight for humanity.

So, really nothing more than a theory that happens to fit the facts, but I like it and it hasn't been disproven yet, so I hope it continues to fit the facts.

nice. That's pretty much exactly the path I hope the HH books take.
I like it when the smaller battles acts as a parable of the greater conflict itself.

IMO, Surprising twists are only hack writing when they are inconsistent with previously written material and it doesn't hold up on the second read through. Otherwise you end up with ridiculousness like condemning the entire genre of detective stories because the whole point of the tale is to lead up to the *TWIST* at the end of who the killer really is. Twisting stories neither prevent, nor guarantee any particular level of quality.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Manchu wrote:@BOS:

Originally, the protagonists were good guys who fought bad guys.

Then they were good guys who fought bad guys who -TWIST!- eventually became good guys.

Then they were good guys who -TWIST!- were actually the bad guys and they fought bad guys who -TWIST!- were actually the good guys.

Then they were bad guys who -TWIST!- actually wanted to be good guys and instead of fighting bad guys they -TWIST!- fought guys even worse than them but sometimes -TWIST!- had to fight the good guys who -TWIST!- eventually worked with them grudgingly.

TWIST TWIST TWIST TWIST

This is the evolution of hackwriting, the eclipse of characterization by storyline. The best example I can think of from recent TV is the tremendously overrated Battlestar Galactica. In 40k, you'll find that Abnett is squarely aligned with this school of thought and Demski-Bowden looks poised to follow him.

Bad guys who are bad guys are not boring when handled by talented writers. Supplying TWIST! after TWIST! after TWIST! does not make something more interesting. Just ask M. Night Shyamalan.

What a Twist!

The Alpha Legion may have had killed the Imperium humans to help the Imperium at one point, but now they are just evil for being evil. It may be silly, but GW has proved time and time again that Chaos in all forms are the goofy moustanched saturday morning cartoon villans of 40k. For the Most recent example: see Cadia.

That's why Faust's idea is more interesting. The Luna Wolves trilogy did a good job showing that unlike what had previously been portrayed in the background materials the Primarchs didn't just flip a light switch and suddenly all Luna Wolves, Death Guard, World Eaters and EC are now traitors. You can't just betray everything your Legion ever stood for and not get a few dissenters; primarch or not. Especially when many in the Legions were Terrans and actually fought alongside the Emperor before even meeting their Primarchs. Every Legion had its own little mini-Istvaan.

Although actually after saying all that if there's one legion that didn't it would be the Alpha Legion. They are unique in that they were created and got their Primarch right away so their loyalty to The Emperor was always tenous at best.

Your confusing "twists" with character development.

Nah, that's what I'm actually criticizing.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Cartoonish supervilliany is not compelling fiction.

That's just saying gak is gak. Of course "cartoonish supervillainy" is no good. But I don't think being out-and-out evil is the same thing as "cartoonish supervillainy." CSM have plausible reasons to believe what they believe (or disbelieve, more accurately). But that doesn't make them noble. Basically, I don't need my bad guys to be somehow morally superior to the good guys. And that's what a lot of people seem to want out of CSM. That's why people are so obsessed with insisting that the Alpha Legion and Night Lords are not Chaos-worshipers . . . when both of them include Daemon Princes? Really? Just because they don't build Chaos churches like the Word Bearers doesn't mean they aren't squarely on the side of Chaos. But if you tell people that, they just come back with the "oh, those are just certain factions/individuals in that Legion who don't represent the whole Legion." And then there's this "who knows what the Alpha Legion is really up to?" Well, I do. They're shuffling around the galaxy spreading the good news of Chaos. No twist necessary.


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inquisitorfaust wrote:Twisting stories neither prevent, nor guarantee any particular level of quality.

Yeah, I know. But I'm talking about stories where TWISTS! are a substitute for good writing.

Manchu wrote:

Your confusing "twists" with character development.

Nah, that's what I'm actually criticizing.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Cartoonish supervilliany is not compelling fiction.

That's just saying gak is gak. Of course "cartoonish supervillainy" is no good. But I don't think being out-and-out evil is the same thing as "cartoonish supervillainy." CSM have plausible reasons to believe what they believe (or disbelieve, more accurately). But that doesn't make them noble. Basically, I don't need my bad guys to be somehow morally superior to the good guys. And that's what a lot of people seem to want out of CSM. That's why people are so obsessed with insisting that the Alpha Legion and Night Lords are not Chaos-worshipers . . . when both of them include Daemon Princes? Really? Just because they don't build Chaos churches like the Word Bearers doesn't mean they aren't squarely on the side of Chaos. But if you tell people that, they just come back with the "oh, those are just certain factions/individuals in that Legion who don't represent the whole Legion." And then there's this "who knows what the Alpha Legion is really up to?" Well, I do. They're shuffling around the galaxy spreading the good news of Chaos. No twist necessary.


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inquisitorfaust wrote:Twisting stories neither prevent, nor guarantee any particular level of quality.

Yeah, I know. But I'm talking about stories where TWISTS! are a substitute for good writing.

Yes I think we basically agree. (well not on Abnett and BSG). If a writer has made his villian more likable than the hero you could argue that he has actually failed. You need to make your villian compelling yet still despicable. A waffling pro wrestling style villian makes neither an interesting hero or villian usually.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:If a writer has made his villian more likable than the hero you could argue that he has actually failed.

Darth Vader?

You need to make your villian compelling yet still despicable.

This is exactly why I like the Exalted from Soul Hunter (but less in Throne of Lies) better than Talos.

Abnett and BSG are both miles above the usual trip that passes for scifi writers and scifi programs. But they're not worthy of the worship they elicit. You can see this from your own thread when you consider that it was Abnett who wrote Legion.

I never understood the big deal with Vader. Like he's cool cause he wears all black or something. Nobody likes Anakin but suddenly when he's vader he's cool? He's the same whiny, needy dork he always was just with a deeper voice.

Manchu wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

inquisitorfaust wrote:Twisting stories neither prevent, nor guarantee any particular level of quality.

Yeah, I know. But I'm talking about stories where TWISTS! are a substitute for good writing.

In that case, we are mostly in agreement, except that I actually enjoy Abnett's work in Legion. It didn't seem poorly written to me at all. I am willing to concede that most of my reading is 40k/warcraft/starcraft stuff and I go through a lot of turds looking for the gems, so maybe my standards are lower than yours, but in that small pond Abnett and ADB are the local big fish imo.

Haven't read The First Heretic yet so I will wait and see how it goes.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I never understood the big deal with Vader. Like he's cool cause he wears all black or something. Nobody likes Anakin but suddenly when he's vader he's cool? He's the same whiny, needy dork he always was just with a deeper voice.

To be fair, a Majority of Star Wars Characters are whiny, needy dorks.

Yes, I guess I basically agree with you faust. I consider Legion to be some of Abnett's weaker work but its not like its bad just kinda boring. Probably becasue it suffers from some of the "Good-Bad guy" syndrome with John Gramaticus we are bemoaning Manchu!

Well then It seems like we're all in agreement then....that's nice. The interweb must have a bug or something.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

What a Twist!

The Alpha Legion may have had killed the Imperium humans to help the Imperium at one point, but now they are just evil for being evil. It may be silly, but GW has proved time and time again that Chaos in all forms are the goofy moustanched saturday morning cartoon villans of 40k. For the Most recent example: see Cadia.

That's true...but only if you disregard their fluff and make up your own.

Again, their thing isn't that they're secretly loyal to the Imperium. They're not. But they're also not fighting for Chaos' ultimate victory.

Well the thing is, and now everyone can start laughing at me if they want...

I actually think the Emperor created the Primarchs for Chaos to steal. He setup the Imperium for the Horus Heresy on purpose. For the good of humanity of course... That's why he ignored the warnings. It wasn't out of love for his sons. Yes, they were his creations, and mighty ones at that. But they were built to be a distraction for Chaos, while the human race grows mentally, and becomes New Man. He sensed what had become of the Eldar, and needed a plan to avoid thier fate.

The Emperor is not a nice guy. He knew that the human race would suffer greatly, but that the only way to survive the transformation to New Man was by constant war and pain for people. With the Imperium on a constant war footing, all manner of injustice can be tollerated and condoned. If he had simply contiued to kick but, humanity would have had peace, but left itself open to Chaos. With war, the Inquistion can hunt, round up, and contain the psychers that would destroy humanity during the transformation.

After the warp storms (Slannish birth by Eldar) abated, the Emperor expanded Human civilization to cover most of the gallaxy. Humanity, and the Emperor, are in a holding pattern, while humanity grows and transforms.


Within this framework, the Alpha Legion has a job to to. As I posted before, I believe them to be the control rods of the Imperium, during mans transformation to New Man. Whether the Alpha Legion Primarchs realize this or not, I don't know. Maybe the Emperor gave them special instructions. Maybe it's in thier genes. Certainly the warbands would have no idea what was happening, both from a collective and individual basis. Nobody really knows what the Alpha Legion Primarch(s) really think. Nobody can know the real reason, or the jig is up, and Chaos will unite. The Alpha Legion creates the think and double think to protect it's secret. It uses Chaos to futher it's own ends, and avoid suspician.

Warprat

Given the somewhat heavy-handed nature of most of the writing in the HH books, I fully expect to see the Heresy played out in detail as Brother LITERALLY goes against BROTHER...

For obvious reasons, I'm hoping that Omegon is the loser!

Alpharius wrote:Sadly, or not, all conjecture.

I'm fairly sure GW/BL/DA will never tell us exactly what's going on, so, it will be up to us, and everyone will be wrong and right at the same time!

(Does current background even have The Legion at the Dropsite Massacre?)

The reality (ha!) of it is more likely that The Legion thought they knew what was best for Humanity, and maybe for the Imperium, and it didn't quite work out as planned.

"Too clever by half", yes?

And now, some factions are 'loyal', some are 'traitor' and the whole thing's a mess!

There is no such thing as a loyal Alpha Legion marine simply for the fact that none have returned to the service of the Imperium. Traitorous Excommunicatus is how they will forever be viewed.

Manchu wrote:More than merely human emotions are reflected in the warp.

Well quite. It's the thoughts, feelings, urges and emotions of all creatures possessing souls.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Sadly, or not, all conjecture.

I'm fairly sure GW/BL/DA will never tell us exactly what's going on, so, it will be up to us, and everyone will be wrong and right at the same time!

(Does current background even have The Legion at the Dropsite Massacre?)

The reality (ha!) of it is more likely that The Legion thought they knew what was best for Humanity, and maybe for the Imperium, and it didn't quite work out as planned.

"Too clever by half", yes?

And now, some factions are 'loyal', some are 'traitor' and the whole thing's a mess!

There is no such thing as a loyal Alpha Legion marine simply for the fact that none have returned to the service of the Imperium. Traitorous Excommunicatus is how they will forever be viewed.

Yes and no.

That's why I said 'loyal' yes?

That's why 'For the Emperor!' may mean exactly that.

Again, I get the feeling that there's a certain amount of "Fingers in Ears" and "Intentional Tweaking" going on, so, this is probably enough for me now.

Until we get a THIRD Dark Angel book, then maybe we'll get a sequel to LEGION.

inquisitorfaust wrote:You remember the Index Astartes story with the battle the Ultramarines deny ever fighting?

Not a bad theory.

Where is the fluff on that battle located?

Warprat wrote:Well the thing is, and now everyone can start laughing at me if they want...

I actually think the Emperor created the Primarchs for Chaos to steal. He setup the Imperium for the Horus Heresy on purpose. For the good of humanity of course... That's why he ignored the warnings. It wasn't out of love for his sons. Yes, they were his creations, and mighty ones at that. But they were built to be a distraction for Chaos, while the human race grows mentally, and becomes New Man. He sensed what had become of the Eldar, and needed a plan to avoid thier fate.

The Emperor is not a nice guy. He knew that the human race would suffer greatly, but that the only way to survive the transformation to New Man was by constant war and pain for people. With the Imperium on a constant war footing, all manner of injustice can be tollerated and condoned. If he had simply contiued to kick but, humanity would have had peace, but left itself open to Chaos. With war, the Inquistion can hunt, round up, and contain the psychers that would destroy humanity during the transformation.

After the warp storms (Slannish birth by Eldar) abated, the Emperor expanded Human civilization to cover most of the gallaxy. Humanity, and the Emperor, are in a holding pattern, while humanity grows and transforms.


Within this framework, the Alpha Legion has a job to to. As I posted before, I believe them to be the control rods of the Imperium, during mans transformation to New Man. Whether the Alpha Legion Primarchs realize this or not, I don't know. Maybe the Emperor gave them special instructions. Maybe it's in thier genes. Certainly the warbands would have no idea what was happening, both from a collective and individual basis. Nobody really knows what the Alpha Legion Primarch(s) really think. Nobody can know the real reason, or the jig is up, and Chaos will unite. The Alpha Legion creates the think and double think to protect it's secret. It uses Chaos to futher it's own ends, and avoid suspician.

Warprat

Don't think so. The "new men" as you call them are psychics. So this doesn't make sense. Also The Imperium doesn't ned to be on a war footing for inquisitors to go around plucking up psykers in fact peace would probably be easier. Mankind is constantly teetering on the brink of extinction and one of the main Reasons is Chaos so I don't think the Emperor was hoping for that.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I never understood the big deal with Vader. Like he's cool cause he wears all black or something. Nobody likes Anakin but suddenly when he's vader he's cool? He's the same whiny, needy dork he always was just with a deeper voice.

So did you watch Star Wars and Empire AFTER the crappy three?

Until those came out, Vader was never, and could never have been whiny. He was a bad ass.
Lucas ruined his character with crappy direction and story.

really? Are you sure he's not a sniveling twit at the beck and call of The Emperor who ruined his life?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Don't think so. The "new men" as you call them are psychics. So this doesn't make sense. Also The Imperium doesn't ned to be on a war footing for inquisitors to go around plucking up psykers in fact peace would probably be easier. Mankind is constantly teetering on the brink of extinction and one of the main Reasons is Chaos so I don't think the Emperor was hoping for that.

The fluff I remember was that man was evolving into a psychic race, but wasn't ready yet.
The Emperor was attempting to guide them through the transition when the Heresy happened.

If things had went how they were going, there would never have been an Inquisition.
And Mankind would have developed into a psychic race, instead of culling the ability out of the species, as they are doing.

Yes exactly. Seems to me having every human as a psyker would be a disaster. There'd be a demonic incursion on every street corner!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes exactly. Seems to me having every human as a psyker would be a disaster. There'd be a demonic incursion on every street corner!

So there are demonic incursions wherever a psyker is?
Maybe this "new man" theory aims at trained psykers, such as we see freely venturing in the Imperium today (M41).

skrulnik wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Don't think so. The "new men" as you call them are psychics. So this doesn't make sense. Also The Imperium doesn't ned to be on a war footing for inquisitors to go around plucking up psykers in fact peace would probably be easier. Mankind is constantly teetering on the brink of extinction and one of the main Reasons is Chaos so I don't think the Emperor was hoping for that.

The fluff I remember was that man was evolving into a psychic race, but wasn't ready yet.
The Emperor was attempting to guide them through the transition when the Heresy happened.

If things had went how they were going, there would never have been an Inquisition.
And Mankind would have developed into a psychic race, instead of culling the ability out of the species, as they are doing.

Well. they have been testing everyone for the last 10,000 years, and sending the rejects off on the Black Ships. That should be enough time to eliminate the unwanted genetic traits. But humanity is evolving, so they can barely keep it under control. Just like using pesticide on bugs and whatnot, in real life, a few survive to become stronger and more resilient. The process builds.

And the Emperor in a perfect position to influence human evolution to New Man, should man be evolving, by monitoring the psychic potential in individuals, and helping them find each other to mate. Perhaps he has minions who do this? We really can't know this, but it's plausable. For obvious real world reasons, Games Workshop would want to tread lightly here...

Or, maybe it IS simply the effect of Chaos, working to infiltrate into more psychers, but in the process causing humanity to explosivly evolve. The Inquisition, failing to keep up with the pace, as the contagion rolls on century after century. The fact that the Inquistion can barely keep up, and is actually falling behind is well known within the Inquisition. Making them all the more frantic.

No matter the reasons, humanity is becomming more and more psychic. The Emperor could either stay on the sidelines or get involved. I choose to believe he is involved.

With the Emperor spending so much time in the warp, he is in the perfect position to protect the human phychics powerful enough to stay consious after death, and recuit them into his army in the Immaterium. As humanity evolves, his army becomes stronger, and Chaos weaker.

Lately, the Legion of the Dammed has been making an appearence, so perhaps he now has enough forces to begin active incursions from the Immaterium into the physical universe. So, maybe it is not so far fetched of an idea. It's interesting to note that all attempts by the Inquisition to learn of these events have been seemingly blocked.

Warprat

1hadhq wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes exactly. Seems to me having every human as a psyker would be a disaster. There'd be a demonic incursion on every street corner!

So there are demonic incursions wherever a psyker is?
Maybe this "new man" theory aims at trained psykers, such as we see freely venturing in the Imperium today (M41).

Yes, every psyker is a potential gateway for the evil warp denizens. That's why the inquisition pursues them so doggedly. If every human was a psyker then even if only 1% of them "turned to the dark side" to coin a pharse then humanity would easily be destroyed. This is why The Emperor purged psychics.
Look up something called the "Enslaver Plague" for one example of how this has already happened.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes exactly. Seems to me having every human as a psyker would be a disaster. There'd be a demonic incursion on every street corner!

So there are demonic incursions wherever a psyker is?
Maybe this "new man" theory aims at trained psykers, such as we see freely venturing in the Imperium today (M41).

Yes, every psyker is a potential gateway for the evil warp denizens. That's why the inquisition pursues them so doggedly. If every human was a psyker then even if only 1% of them "turned to the dark side" to coin a phrase then humanity would easily be destroyed. This is why The Emperor purged psychics.
Look up something called the "Enslaver Plague" for one example of how this has already happened.

Eldar=psychic abilities
Orks=psychic abilities
Humans=psychic abilites

Its the level of the latent abilities that matters.
Abilities need control,yes.

So why do you willfully miss the point of trained psykers?
What happens if 1 sanctioned psyker fails but other sanctioned psykers are available to stop him/her? 1% vs 99%

I think the point of the "new man" theory is a change of power and control.

1hadhq wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yes exactly. Seems to me having every human as a psyker would be a disaster. There'd be a demonic incursion on every street corner!

So there are demonic incursions wherever a psyker is?
Maybe this "new man" theory aims at trained psykers, such as we see freely venturing in the Imperium today (M41).

Yes, every psyker is a potential gateway for the evil warp denizens. That's why the inquisition pursues them so doggedly. If every human was a psyker then even if only 1% of them "turned to the dark side" to coin a phrase then humanity would easily be destroyed. This is why The Emperor purged psychics.
Look up something called the "Enslaver Plague" for one example of how this has already happened.

Eldar=psychic abilities
Orks=psychic abilities
Humans=psychic abilites

Its the level of the latent abilities that matters.
Abilities need control,yes.

So why do you willfully miss the point of trained psykers?
What happens if 1 sanctioned psyker fails but other sanctioned psykers are available to stop him/her? 1% vs 99%

I think the point of the "new man" theory is a change of power and control.

Look dude, besides that Galaxy being destroyed by Enslavers the eldar who are not all psychic but have a strong warp presence once again destroyed the galaxy in their heyday. Basically anything to do with the Warp = Bad Times.

skrulnik wrote:

inquisitorfaust wrote:You remember the Index Astartes story with the battle the Ultramarines deny ever fighting?

Not a bad theory.

Where is the fluff on that battle located?

That's from the Index Astartes article on the Alpha Legion that was printed years ago in White Dwarf and may have been included in a compilation book as well. These things were from... mid 3rd eddition I think? Old enough to be obscure, but not so far back that it's all but ret-conned.

KamikazeCanuck wrote: This is why The Emperor purged psychics.

What are you talking about? The Inquisition did not form to pursue psykers until after the Heresy. Even after that, initially they were pursued to supply the Golden Throne, not because of the warp breaches.
They haven't covered the history enough to tell if the risk was always as high as it now is. I tend to think it was less likely in hte days of the Crusade.

I was speaking of evolution of the species. I see the current pursuit of psykers as one of fear, not necessity.
Rather than develop and educate psykers, the Imperium kills those it thinks it can't control, and subjugates the rest, falling back upon superstition.
There is a fear there of the "New Man" that transcendes the threat of chaos/demons.
What happens to most cultures when a new, more powerful one develops? It is destroyed.
The Imperium is desperately trying to hold back the ascension of man out of that fear.

I suspect that part of the Emperor's denouncing of religion/chaos/superstition was an attempt to foster an acceptance of the change of man,
as well as an attempt to reduce the power that chaos could impose on the material world.
If the Emperor was still around, I think there would have been reduced susceptibility to chaos, as well as having the ability being more acceptable.

I'm pretty sure the danger represented by psyckers offering the daemonic hordes a gateway into reality preceded the needs of the Imperium and the Golden Throne. Remember that Old Night was caused by the explosive appearance of psyckers. Plus, for reasons that are probably incidental, there seems to be a curious paucity of psyckers in the 31st millennium. Horus' expeditionary fleet, for example, seems to have one Astropath whereas relatively backwater planets in the 41st seem to have entire Astropathic choirs. That could just be the tendency of the Horus Heresy to focus on the minuitae at the expense of the big picture, but the whole warp portal for the legions of hell has been there since Rogue Trader.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Look dude, besides that Galaxy being destroyed by Enslavers the eldar who are not all psychic but have a strong warp presence once again destroyed the galaxy in their heyday. Basically anything to do with the Warp = Bad Times.

SO the Emperor and the astronomican and the Navis nobilite and the whole bunch of sanctioned psykers is bad times?



An uncontrolled warp isn't good times, but I am not advocating free unlimited use of the warp,dude.
The Empyrean can be mastered.
Not yet, but this 'new man' theory has its possibilities.

Counter proposal: evolve the human race to psychic blanks.
Eat this, chaos

skrulnik wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote: This is why The Emperor purged psychics.

What are you talking about? The Inquisition did not form to pursue psykers until after the Heresy. Even after that, initially they were pursued to supply the Golden Throne, not because of the warp breaches.
They haven't covered the history enough to tell if the risk was always as high as it now is. I tend to think it was less likely in hte days of the Crusade.

It is quite clear that human psykers have never been as prevalent (note: Prevalent, not powerfull) as they are in the 41st Millenium.

I was speaking of evolution of the species. I see the current pursuit of psykers as one of fear, not necessity.
Rather than develop and educate psykers, the Imperium kills those it thinks it can't control, and subjugates the rest, falling back upon superstition.

Welcome to the 41st Millenium, where superstition is the watchword.

There is a fear there of the "New Man" that transcendes the threat of chaos/demons.
What happens to most cultures when a new, more powerful one develops? It is destroyed.
The Imperium is desperately trying to hold back the ascension of man out of that fear.

And to be perfectly fair, there is little to suggest that such fears are entirely unfounded. Few 'New, more powerful cultures' take the shape of a single person that can (accidentally or purposefully) destroy cities and bring a torrent of deamons onto an unsupecting world.

I suspect that part of the Emperor's denouncing of religion/chaos/superstition was an attempt to foster an acceptance of the change of man,
as well as an attempt to reduce the power that chaos could impose on the material world.
If the Emperor was still around, I think there would have been reduced susceptibility to chaos, as well as having the ability being more acceptable.

Possibly, but it is likely that the emergence of such a radical entity as the New Man race was always going to be a painful birthing, lessened perhaps by the Emperor's Utopia. Woah, wait a second. You mean things would be better if the Emperor was still concious? Who'da thunk it?

I think the Emperor's Utopia was the Dark Age of Technology. That was Plan A, now he is on Plan B.

Warprat wrote:I think the Emperor's Utopia was the Dark Age of Technology. That was Plan A, now he is on Plan B.

You're quite mistaken. Dinosaurs was the Emperor's Grand Plan A. The Imperium is somewhere near Plan W[iv].

There was little evidence of human unity in the Dark Age of Technology, and little still to suggest the Emperor was driving the entire thing. Most sources, especially Horus Heresy novels, agree that before the Crusades the Emperor only dabbled in humanity's course, doing what he could here and there. It was only after the Age of Strife that the Emperor concluded "Bugger this, I'll show you lot how it's done."

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Warprat wrote:I think the Emperor's Utopia was the Dark Age of Technology. That was Plan A, now he is on Plan B.

You're quite mistaken. Dinosaurs was the Emperor's Grand Plan A. The Imperium is somewhere near Plan W[iv].

There was little evidence of human unity in the Dark Age of Technology, and little still to suggest the Emperor was driving the entire thing. Most sources, especially Horus Heresy novels, agree that before the Crusades the Emperor only dabbled in humanity's course, doing what he could here and there. It was only after the Age of Strife that the Emperor concluded "Bugger this, I'll show you lot how it's done."

The game is 40K and covers a full 10,000 years. But the Emperor had 30K plus years before that. Do you really think he just dabbled?

The Dark Age of Technology had democracy and multiple governments. Alien races were tolerated and treatied with. Machines served man and did most of the labor, including fighting the wars, the Iron Men. Technology was made freely available with the Standard Templates. People looked to science for their answers, and not religion. It was Utopia.

But it all went bad when Chaos entered the picture and blew it all up. It all went bad when the Human race started evolving psychers, and evolving into New Man. The Emperor hadn't counted on the Reset Button being hit. He hadn't counted on warp travel being cut off.

What's the Emperor going to say? "OK everyone listen up, I messed up on Utopia, but this time I have it right?" That's awe inspiring... as they stand in the rubble of thier former civilazation. No, he's going to say he had little part in it and move on to Plan B with as much confidence as he can muster. And nobody is going to doubt it, because all the history has been lost.

He needed a way to allow man to evolve, and not implode like the Eldar. He needed to deal with Chaos. Simply uniting and expanding the human civilization again wasn't going to cut it. He had been there, done that... and working behind the scenes had taken him 30K years. He didn't have time for that with Plan B, because New Man was already starting to evolve. The biological clock was ticking.

He had no time, and needed to act quickly, and that meant he had to direct things personally. He had to expose himself and take a chance. Because he only had one chance before Chaos destroyed man.

I'm thinking he got it right. If only because it makes for an epic story...

@Warprat: I think you're mistaking my argument. The Crusades were the first time the Emperor ever took a direct role in Humanity's course. I am arguing that while the Emperor may have edged along the Dark Age of Technology he was not responsible for it, he was not the sole engineer, probably giving them a push in the right direction at times. The evidence of him being stuck on Earth rather than any other planet shows he stayed back a little. He was also not the first human psyker, only the most powerful. Blaming the Age of Strife on the New Race is not accurate. Furthermore, Chaos had existed for quite a while, before humanity came to its ascension (the Eldar Fall is evidence of that).

Warprat wrote:

But it all went bad when Chaos entered the picture and blew it all up. It all went bad when the Human race started evolving psychers, and evolving into New Man. The Emperor hadn't counted on the Reset Button being hit. He hadn't counted on warp travel being cut off.

I don't think chaos was the reason for the age of strife.
The near religious approach to machines and the fact of AI's beeing forbidden does support a rebellion of the AI's/machines causing
the AoS.

Your theory of the evolution of the 'new man' :

- the clock ticking and thus forcing the Emperor's hand seems plausible.
- the existance of enhanced warriors at the end of the unity wars at Terra may hint on a advanced level
of bio-engineering. The evolution to 'new man' could be artificial.
- the Emperor's heritage is old fluff, but 8000BC would give him 38.000 years pre-crusade to influence Mankind.
We don't know , what he did in these years ( assuming GW keeps this fluff ).
Its possible to change the fluff, so the Emperor becomes a scientific project from the DAoT.
- chaos obviously tried to benefit from the AoS, but such creatures are maybe acting as predators hunting the weak, not really going
on a frontal assault against the strong. Warp storms would be a tool to separate worlds.
- DAoT was utopia. But it was Imperfect and fell.
- the Emperor didn't reveal so much about chaos. Maybe he didn't know everything himself?
Chaos is millenia old, when Mankind steps out of the caves. And still, everyone is surprised in the HH when a person becomes possessed.

Abbrevations:

- DAoT = Dark Age of Technology
- AoS = Age of Strife


Could partially agree on some of your points. But I don't buy the whole package.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Warprat: I think you're mistaking my argument. The Crusades were the first time the Emperor ever took a direct role in Humanity's course. I am arguing that while the Emperor may have edged along the Dark Age of Technology he was not responsible for it, he was not the sole engineer, probably giving them a push in the right direction at times. The evidence of him being stuck on Earth rather than any other planet shows he stayed back a little. He was also not the first human psyker, only the most powerful. Blaming the Age of Strife on the New Race is not accurate. Furthermore, Chaos had existed for quite a while, before humanity came to its ascension (the Eldar Fall is evidence of that).

I agree most whole heartedly that he was not the sole engineer. I'm sure that there were many, many players. But I do think he manipulated it to his satisfaction. He had so many lifetimes compared to normal people. With no need for childhood or dying during that time. Just super productive adulthood. Why he wanted to stay hidden I don't know. Maybe he just enjoyed the freedom to travel, live well, and not be noticed. Or, maybe he was hunted.

Earth was his home. And it was the center, or at least one of the centers for culture, government, history. A perfect location to pull strings from. A golden age. Perhaps the Chaos gods are busy with the much more psychic Eldar to even think about humanity. Or perhaps with so few human psychers, the Emperor is easily able to shield humanity for a while. For whatever reason, Chaos leaves humanity alone.

Anyway... At the end of the Dark Age, machines rebelled, we don't know why. But perhaps when they reached sentinence, they were vulnerable to Chaos. There is a huge war which humanity wins at great expense. What role the Emperor played, we don't know. But my guess would be that the Emperor had a hand in it, doing damage control.

Then the Eldar become decadent and cause the warp to form Slannish. Warp Storms cut off intersteller travel. The age of Strife begins as psychers are possessed and deamons appear. Most of the major worlds had been tollerant of psychers and were hurt badly because of it. The minor colonies were more fearfull of psychers and suffered less, but many of them were invaded by the other species.

It was too much for the Emperor to contain on his own, or with what ever group or groups he was with. And they are cut off by the storms. The Emperor forsees the birth of Slannish, the clearing of the warp storms, and prepares for it with genetic research.

So, yes while New Man was not directly responsible. That being Chaos, powerd by the Eldar. The psychers of New Man opened the door and sealed humanities fate.

I think this hypothesising is pretty cool.

Warprat wrote:
Earth was his home. And it was the center, or at least one of the centers for culture, government, history. A perfect location to pull strings from. A golden age. Perhaps the Chaos gods are busy with the much more psychic Eldar to even think about humanity. Or perhaps with so few human psychers, the Emperor is easily able to shield humanity for a while. For whatever reason, Chaos leaves humanity alone.

The Emperor does not 'shield' humanity, how can he? It was only through the Golden Throne and that whole mess (I assume you are aware of exactly how much Magnus dicked things up) that made him the Ultimate Guardian of Mankind from the Warp.
Before the Fall, the Warp was a gentle creature which was utilised by the Eldar at thier whim (alowing some form of reincarnation). It's hard to exactly guage when the Chaos Gods came into being, time flows strangely in the Warp, and Slaanesh is the only God which we are given an actual 'birthday' for.

Anyway... At the end of the Dark Age, machines rebelled, we don't know why. But perhaps when they reached sentinence, they were vulnerable to Chaos. There is a huge war which humanity wins at great expense. What role the Emperor played, we don't know. But my guess would be that the Emperor had a hand in it, doing damage control.

Machines attack becuase that was just going to happen. You do watch Sci-Fi movies right?

Then the Eldar become decadent and cause the warp to form Slannish. Warp Storms cut off intersteller travel. The age of Strife begins as psychers are possessed and deamons appear. Most of the major worlds had been tollerant of psychers and were hurt badly because of it. The minor colonies were more fearfull of psychers and suffered less, but many of them were invaded by the other species.

1) The Eldar Fall occured before the Dark Age of Technology. Humanity's initial expansion into the stars filled the power vaccum left behind by the Eldar, and even today much of the Imperium's Galactic West is located within the ruins of the Ancient Eldar Empire (The EoT being its very centre).
2) Again, the New Man is was not as prevalent back then. Why would the major colonies be tolerant while the minor colonies were fearful?

It was too much for the Emperor to contain on his own, or with what ever group or groups he was with. And they are cut off by the storms. The Emperor forsees the birth of Slannish, the clearing of the warp storms, and prepares for it with genetic research.

You contradict yourself here. First you blame the Warpstorms on the Eldar Fall, then you say they are cleared up by the Birth of Slaanesh. These are the same events.

So, yes while New Man was not directly responsible. That being Chaos, powerd by the Eldar. The psychers of New Man opened the door and sealed humanities fate.

No, the New Man was not responsible. Nor (if we are still talking about the catalyst for the Age of Strife) were the Eldar.

1hadhq wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Look dude, besides that Galaxy being destroyed by Enslavers the eldar who are not all psychic but have a strong warp presence once again destroyed the galaxy in their heyday. Basically anything to do with the Warp = Bad Times.

SO the Emperor and the astronomican and the Navis nobilite and the whole bunch of sanctioned psykers is bad times?

Yes, The astronimcon results in the Death of its members in just a few months. The Navigators are mutants and sanctioned psykers are reviled. They all fall under the catagory of "necesary evils". Not saying Navigators and Sanctioned psykers are evil but rather if there was any other way to traverse The Warp without The Astronomicon and Navigators then The Emperor would have been all over it (and indeed was working on it). Why? Cause warp = bad times.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I think this hypothesising is pretty cool.

Warprat wrote:
Earth was his home. And it was the center, or at least one of the centers for culture, government, history. A perfect location to pull strings from. A golden age. Perhaps the Chaos gods are busy with the much more psychic Eldar to even think about humanity. Or perhaps with so few human psychers, the Emperor is easily able to shield humanity for a while. For whatever reason, Chaos leaves humanity alone.

The Emperor does not 'shield' humanity, how can he? It was only through the Golden Throne and that whole mess (I assume you are aware of exactly how much Magnus dicked things up) that made him the Ultimate Guardian of Mankind from the Warp.
Before the Fall, the Warp was a gentle creature which was utilised by the Eldar at thier whim (alowing some form of reincarnation). It's hard to exactly guage when the Chaos Gods came into being, time flows strangely in the Warp, and Slaanesh is the only God which we are given an actual 'birthday' for.

Anyway... At the end of the Dark Age, machines rebelled, we don't know why. But perhaps when they reached sentinence, they were vulnerable to Chaos. There is a huge war which humanity wins at great expense. What role the Emperor played, we don't know. But my guess would be that the Emperor had a hand in it, doing damage control.

Machines attack becuase that was just going to happen. You do watch Sci-Fi movies right?

Then the Eldar become decadent and cause the warp to form Slannish. Warp Storms cut off intersteller travel. The age of Strife begins as psychers are possessed and deamons appear. Most of the major worlds had been tollerant of psychers and were hurt badly because of it. The minor colonies were more fearfull of psychers and suffered less, but many of them were invaded by the other species.

1) The Eldar Fall occured before the Dark Age of Technology. Humanity's initial expansion into the stars filled the power vaccum left behind by the Eldar, and even today much of the Imperium's Galactic West is located within the ruins of the Ancient Eldar Empire (The EoT being its very centre).
2) Again, the New Man is was not as prevalent back then. Why would the major colonies be tolerant while the minor colonies were fearful?

It was too much for the Emperor to contain on his own, or with what ever group or groups he was with. And they are cut off by the storms. The Emperor forsees the birth of Slannish, the clearing of the warp storms, and prepares for it with genetic research.

You contradict yourself here. First you blame the Warpstorms on the Eldar Fall, then you say they are cleared up by the Birth of Slaanesh. These are the same events.

So, yes while New Man was not directly responsible. That being Chaos, powerd by the Eldar. The psychers of New Man opened the door and sealed humanities fate.

No, the New Man was not responsible. Nor (if we are still talking about the catalyst for the Age of Strife) were the Eldar.

Well, not that I wouldn't love to discuss this... I would, but I have already hijacked the thread and probably bored the hell out of a few people.

PM me if you would like me to start up a new topic. Warprat

Amen to that!

I don't care. Hijack away. I thought that was all interesting.

1hadhq wrote:

Quick and painless and chaos in the same sentence? Sorry if they bougth into this, they're dumb.
Chaos doesn't need maknind. Their existance began when old ones and C'tan roamed the galaxy.

well chaos certianly wasnt created by the c'tan as far as i know they were trying to close it off from realspace. and if i recall correctly i think chaos actually DOES need humanity to exist. (correct me if im wrong)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

necrongod wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Quick and painless and chaos in the same sentence? Sorry if they bougth into this, they're dumb.
Chaos doesn't need maknind. Their existance began when old ones and C'tan roamed the galaxy.

well chaos certianly wasnt created by the c'tan as far as i know they were trying to close it off from realspace. and if i recall correctly i think chaos actually DOES need humanity to exist. (correct me if im wrong)

um i am wrong (dangit i hate correcting myself ) seeing as i missed the whole "eldar stuff" i was waaaay wrong. but the c'tan didnt create the warp. so ha!

No one created the Warp but the Old Ones (the Slann) weaponized it.

Maybe the same entitiy that created the galaxy also created the warp?
Or both came out of nowhere....

But that wasn't what I was trying to say.

My point ( should have been ? ):

- the old ones messed up the warp, before they created the eldar and orks. As both are intended to interact with the warp.
- the war between C'Tan/Necrontyr and old ones, made new weapons neccessary. But his happened before humanity existed.
- the eldar created one of the chaos-'gods' most likely without any other contributions.
- every soul is of interest to chaos. Humans have one ( except blanks ), but most sentient creatures have such thing too.
- Psykers exist outside humanity too.

Intended point:
Humans are not the only source of chaos. Mankind has the numbers to be a major opportunity to feed upon, but still other options
aren't impossible. If we look into that tome called BRB we find more races than these wellknown to us and I believe chaos would find a replacement for humans.

Ah, but did the Slaan weaponize the Warp, or did the Warp seduce them to weaponizing it? That's the interesting thing about atemporal entities like the Chaos Gods is that they can bootstrap their own subsistence.*

*The Chaos Gods don't exist, in the common metaphysical notions attributed to existence, so I'm using a terminology proposed to validate the truth-predicates of fictional entities in sense-reference theories of truth. The notion being that while they lack extension, they underlie the qualia of existing objects. I suppose I could quote the philosopher that proposed it, but I'm too lazy to go through my files at the moment.

No, you're outsmarting yourself. There was a time when sentience did not exist in the Immaterium. Then beings with emotions and desires were created through genetic engineering that had enough effect on the warp to screw it up.

I know what you mean about the warp's atemporal nature but if they really could manipulate the past effectively I think they would have won The Heresy and everything else they put there minds too. The vast majority of time related anomolies (big 4 related or not) involve giant leaps forward.

Something to remember is that the Chaos Gods did win the Heresy. The noble ideals of the Imperium were perverted (go Slaanesh), the galaxy was racked with war and plunged into 10,000 years of violent conflict (go Khorne), the Emperor's best laid plans were collapsed and the Chaos Gods successfully turned half of the Space Marine Legions and their Primarchs while preventing any permanent victory (go Tzeentch), and it left the Imperium a stagnating mega-state constantly on the edge of destruction (go Nurgle).

Nurglitch wrote:Something to remember is that the Chaos Gods did win the Heresy. The noble ideals of the Imperium were perverted (go Slaanesh), the galaxy was racked with war and plunged into 10,000 years of violent conflict (go Khorne), the Emperor's best laid plans were collapsed and the Chaos Gods successfully turned half of the Space Marine Legions and their Primarchs while preventing any permanent victory (go Tzeentch), and it left the Imperium a stagnating mega-state constantly on the edge of destruction (go Nurgle).

If the Gods only goal were to mess up the emperor's vision then yes I suppose they did. However, militarily their chosen champion was obliterated mind, body and soul and their army was routed. They fled into the eye of terror and then turned on each other.
It hard to say if they Chaos gods really can ever "win" or if "winning" is even a concept for them for all they really want and cause is just that: Chaos.

Exactly, they won, and continue to win.

No, the Imperium is very much the picture of order. Order to the point of Tyranny. So Chaos did not win, they just made everyone sad.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:No, the Imperium is very much the picture of order. Order to the point of Tyranny. So Chaos did not win, they just made everyone sad.

Isn't that them winning? To a point, at least?

The Chaos Gods didn't exactly 'win' the Horus Heresy. But they were happy enough to settle with the results of the draw.

And Humanity was happy not being made extinct. So everyone wins!

We must be reading different background materials if you think that the Imperium isn't a decaying disorganized mess.

Nurglitch wrote:We must be reading different background materials if you think that the Imperium isn't a decaying disorganized mess.

It probably has more to do with being the single largest empire the galaxy has ever seen AND being hated on by every single other race rather than any fault of the Imperium. Given the situation it has done remarkably well.

It's a decaying mess but i wouldn't say its disorganized. It's crippled by it byzantine bureaucracy. So its too organized!

Alpharius wrote:Attempting to speak from any position of absolute authority on this subject is foolish.

QFT and QFE.

What makes this universe work for me is ....and despite it all, the Heresy, the Failing Throne, etc. There is always hope. Some hope. A scintilla even.

In the grim darkness of the future there is only war....but even that isn't worth fighting if humanity accepts that it is lost. And maybe that's all we need. I think that on some human level the GW universe for all its flaws, simply does not work without it; (And I think its survival as a viable games sytem/alternate universe depends on some faith in the internal logic of its creation.). Just a rambling thought.