Ok, so we all hear about the discussions about "40K vs Star Wars, 40K vs Halo, etc", but I've been thinking of an alternate one: Who would win out of a Jedi/Sith Master, or a Chief Librarian? These guys seem pretty on-par with their abilities: both shoot lightning, both can control objects with their mind, both can use mind trickery against their foes. However, there are wargear abilities which are unique to both units, such as the ability to choke people using the mind, or the ability to summon black holes, etc. Imagine that they run into close-combat and work from that.
Please keep this discussion formal, no going too off-the-rails with this.
While a Jedi Master is powerful, and has powers on par with those of a Librarian, the fact remains that the Jedi Master relies entirely on the Force. Without it, he/she/it is just a normal human/alien/whatever. On the other hand, if a Librarian's psychic powers are somehow nullified, well... he's still a Space Marine. He's still wearing power armor and carrying a bolt pistol. And I have a feeling that, if the Force is anything like the Warp (and if the universes were to cross over, it'd have to be), the Librarian's psychic hood would quickly turn the fearsome Jedi Master into nothing more than a regular dude. Enter bolt pistol.
If we presume for a moment that the two are significantly far apart (and therefore will not use CC attacks), and that the Warp and the Force are non-interchangeable systems (i.e. force will not block psychic powers, and vice versa) it will come down to whoever had the stronger training (or they'll just kill each other).
For example, several Force-wielders have demonstrated the ability to implode vehicles, crushing the occupants. Even a Librarian couldn't survive his armour being crushed down into a ball.
On the other hand, Warp-energy attacks are arguably more powerful than Force-energy attacks. We typically see warp-attacks easily shredding through armour, bulkheads, and pretty much any terrain, with the end effect usually that the target is reduced to an unrecognizable form. I don't imagine a Jedi's robes (or even a lightsaber) could withstand that kind of power for any non-negligible length of time.
So I say depends.
To take another view: If they're very close together, it would be akin to a Warlock (robes, fast, psychic) vs a Librarian. In this case (and from the fluff I've read) the Jedi could win, but only if the space marine doesn't manage to grab him/her. If the Librarian gets his hands on the jedi, the jedi is going to have his arm ripped out of his socket at the very least. And do not underestimate the speed with which a Librarian could do this; it's not like he'll sit there and monologue for five minutes while the jedi cuts off his arm.
Better yet, what if 1 jedi and 1 librarian fought WITH each other, rather than against? THATS what I wanna see. Combining the speed of the Force with the power of the Warp, that is a deadly combo.
My bet is librarian. We must not forget that a lightsabre will do almost nothing for a bolt, as they are designed to block lasers, not explosive rpg rounds.
I would go Jedi/Sith Lord as they can manipulate the minds of other. For instance, "Librarian tries to shot a Jedi/Sith Lord" the Jedi/Sith Lord uses mind control and the bolt blast goes another direction. In Star Wars yes the Jedi/Sith mind can redirict pysical attacks, a Librarian has a bolt pistol, Force Sword, a Jedi/Sith has a Lightsaber. An Energy Blade used with the force to cut through and object. The best the Librarian can do is take his Force Sword and hope it works and may deflect the lighsaber. The Jedi/Sith using the force in combat would be superior as his mental attacks are greater. One Librarian Dead being way to slow and not adgile.
I've gotta say a Jedi would completely dominate. For a lot of reasons, not least of which that there's no "Perils of the Force" attacks that they would need to worry about.
SaintHazard wrote:While a Jedi Master is powerful, and has powers on par with those of a Librarian, the fact remains that the Jedi Master relies entirely on the Force. Without it, he/she/it is just a normal human/alien/whatever. On the other hand, if a Librarian's psychic powers are somehow nullified, well... he's still a Space Marine. He's still wearing power armor and carrying a bolt pistol.
And the Jedi still has a Lightsaber! I'm pretty sure that would cut through Power Armor as easily as it does everything else. A Jedi would probably have a few powers that wouldn't be affected by a Psychic Hood anyway, sort of like a Warlock.
I wonder if a suit of power armor would impede a lightsaber at all?
Im guessing they are probably power weapon equivalents, given that they are plasma blades IIRC, and plasma in 40k is AP2
Still a Libby with Bolt Pistol and a Force Weapon would probably beat a jedi, especially since I doubt the usual force blast wouldnt work on Power Armor all that well.
del'Vhar wrote:I wonder if a suit of power armor would impede a lightsaber at all?
Im guessing they are probably power weapon equivalents, given that they are plasma blades IIRC, and plasma in 40k is AP2
Still a Libby with Bolt Pistol and a Force Weapon would probably beat a jedi, especially since I doubt the usual force blast wouldnt work on Power Armor all that well.
Well, to put it in simple terms:
There's Power Armor equivalents in the Star Wars universe. And Lightsabers can slice clean through that stuff, without skipping a beat.
The only difference is made when an ore called "Cortosis" is used, and to a lesser extent another ore called "Beskar".
Cortosis completely, for lack of a better term, "shortcircuits" the lightsaber by causing an overload in the focusing crystals when the blade comes in contact with it.
Beskar is probably similar to the materials used in Terminator Armour, but far far lighter.
If the Force and the Warp are seperate, then it's mostly luck. At range, the Librarian has more offensive powers (plus a gun) but the Jedi/Sith has insane reflexes, and pushing/pulling/crushing/lightning/whatever. I think a lightsaber would still be effective against a bolt; it wouldn't get deflected, but it wouldn't be hitting its target either.
At close combat the advantage rests with the Librarian, but the Jedi/Sith could still win. Lightsabers go through anything like a hot knife through butter, so all Mr. Jedi has to do is get one good hit. Of course, that's all Mr. Librarian has to do as well, and he is stronger and much more durable. A Librarian will continue to fight without an arm. A Jedi? Not so much. Powers-wise, the Jedi has a slight advantage in CC, as the pushing/pulling business is safer than black holes or lightning.
Bu if Force=Warp, Librarian wins. With the PH shutting down most Jedi/Sith powers, the Jedi/Sith loses not only the offensive powers but also their speed, reflexes, ect.
A jedi can chop right through a battle droid, but it takes an extremely long time to cut through something more resilient, like a bulkhead, or power armor. A Light saber would at most be as effective as a power sword. A force weapon is a power weapon that also destroys your soul if it hits you.
The jedi can quicken himself, but so can the librarian.
The jedi can shoot magic lightning, but so can the librarian, and his is depicted as significantly stronger.
The librarian has a psychic hood, which in a crossover would likely work against the force.
The librarian also is a super human. If they ever got into close combat, the librarian would win without a doubt.
The librarian also has a side arm, which would be of moderate usefulness.
A more reasonable matchup is Jedi vs Eldar Warlock. They would be close in power, with the warlock probably having a slight edge. In physical prowess and armor, the warlock would again likely have the edge. It would likely be a lot closer than Jedi vs Librarian.
I remember the Jedi not being your run-of-the-mill humans as people have said. Take away his Force, his unflailing mental training still remains, and so does his impeccably honed reflexes.
People seem to think lightsabers are for deflecting lasers. They are swords. And a Librarian is a bulky, hulky brute that any Jedi master worth his salt would circumvent and impale within a moment's notice. I'd say it'd be very much Eldrad vs Librarian fight. The difference in strength means very little when your weapon is weightless and cuts through thickest alloys. Plus the Jedi would be WS no less than 7, and his I would be 7-10, depending on training, while Librarians is in the lower end of the scale.
But I agree that if luck(he rolled lot of 1's and 2's on to-hit) wasn't on the Jedi's side and the Libro actually managed to hit him or grab him with his fist...it's game over for the ninja-dude.
Araenion wrote:I remember the Jedi not being your run-of-the-mill humans as people have said. Take away his Force, his unflailing mental training still remains, and so does his impeccably honed reflexes.
People seem to think lightsabers are for deflecting lasers. They are swords. And a Librarian is a bulky, hulky brute that any Jedi master worth his salt would circumvent and impale within a moment's notice. I'd say it'd be very much Eldrad vs Librarian fight. The difference in strength means very little when your weapon is weightless and cuts through thickest alloys. Plus the Jedi would be WS no less than 7, and his I would be 7-10, depending on training, while Librarians is in the lower end of the scale.
But I agree that if luck(he rolled lot of 1's and 2's on to-hit) wasn't on the Jedi's side and the Libro actually managed to hit him or grab him with his fist...it's game over for the ninja-dude.
Except that not all jedis are Mace Windu/Anakin Skywalker/Palpatine.
Given how quickly and easily most of the Masters were killed by droids taking them by surprise, I think it would be a far more even matchup than you suggest.
Most Jedi Masters would probably be WS 5 or 6 I5 with BS 3 S3 and T3, W1 and no armor with a 4++ dodge/deflection save (like DE wyches) Armed with a Power weapon.
Ld on a Master would be 9 or 10 as well I'd say.
Araenion wrote:I remember the Jedi not being your run-of-the-mill humans as people have said. Take away his Force, his unflailing mental training still remains, and so does his impeccably honed reflexes.
People seem to think lightsabers are for deflecting lasers. They are swords. And a Librarian is a bulky, hulky brute that any Jedi master worth his salt would circumvent and impale within a moment's notice. I'd say it'd be very much Eldrad vs Librarian fight. The difference in strength means very little when your weapon is weightless and cuts through thickest alloys. Plus the Jedi would be WS no less than 7, and his I would be 7-10, depending on training, while Librarians is in the lower end of the scale.
But I agree that if luck(he rolled lot of 1's and 2's on to-hit) wasn't on the Jedi's side and the Libro actually managed to hit him or grab him with his fist...it's game over for the ninja-dude.
Except that not all jedis are Mace Windu/Anakin Skywalker/Palpatine.
Given how quickly and easily most of the Masters were killed by droids taking them by surprise, I think it would be a far more even matchup than you suggest.
Most Jedi Masters would probably be WS 5 or 6 I5 with BS 3 S3 and T3, W1 and no armor with a 4++ dodge/deflection save (like DE wyches) Armed with a Power weapon.
Ld on a Master would be 9 or 10 as well I'd say.
Note: The die-off of all the Jedi at the end of RotS was rather unlikely and was a huge plot device. And I think the assumption is that both parties are fully aware of the other, so suprise is not an issue.
Araenion wrote:I remember the Jedi not being your run-of-the-mill humans as people have said. Take away his Force, his unflailing mental training still remains, and so does his impeccably honed reflexes.
People seem to think lightsabers are for deflecting lasers. They are swords. And a Librarian is a bulky, hulky brute that any Jedi master worth his salt would circumvent and impale within a moment's notice. I'd say it'd be very much Eldrad vs Librarian fight. The difference in strength means very little when your weapon is weightless and cuts through thickest alloys. Plus the Jedi would be WS no less than 7, and his I would be 7-10, depending on training, while Librarians is in the lower end of the scale.
But I agree that if luck(he rolled lot of 1's and 2's on to-hit) wasn't on the Jedi's side and the Libro actually managed to hit him or grab him with his fist...it's game over for the ninja-dude.
Except that not all jedis are Mace Windu/Anakin Skywalker/Palpatine.
Given how quickly and easily most of the Masters were killed by droids taking them by surprise, I think it would be a far more even matchup than you suggest.
Most Jedi Masters would probably be WS 5 or 6 I5 with BS 3 S3 and T3, W1 and no armor with a 4++ dodge/deflection save (like DE wyches) Armed with a Power weapon.
Ld on a Master would be 9 or 10 as well I'd say.
Note: The die-off of all the Jedi at the end of RotS was rather unlikely and was a huge plot device. And I think the assumption is that both parties are fully aware of the other, so suprise is not an issue.
Araenion wrote:I remember the Jedi not being your run-of-the-mill humans as people have said. Take away his Force, his unflailing mental training still remains, and so does his impeccably honed reflexes.
People seem to think lightsabers are for deflecting lasers. They are swords. And a Librarian is a bulky, hulky brute that any Jedi master worth his salt would circumvent and impale within a moment's notice. I'd say it'd be very much Eldrad vs Librarian fight. The difference in strength means very little when your weapon is weightless and cuts through thickest alloys. Plus the Jedi would be WS no less than 7, and his I would be 7-10, depending on training, while Librarians is in the lower end of the scale.
But I agree that if luck(he rolled lot of 1's and 2's on to-hit) wasn't on the Jedi's side and the Libro actually managed to hit him or grab him with his fist...it's game over for the ninja-dude.
Star Wars fanboy detected.
A space marine trains and fights significantly more than a Jedi, in addition to living longer, and having genetic modification to make his combat learning and reflexes better still. A Jedi additionally trains to use the force as a guide for his fighting style, and without it he is significantly unbalanced.
A librarian is bulky, true, but a space marine can act lightning fast in his power armor, as it is an extension of his nervous system and does not slow him down in the slightest.
A lightsaber could not slash through power armor. Maybe if the jedi managed to get a solid stab off on the marine, he could pierce through, but is very likely that if stuck into a space marine, who has automatic pain blocking, redundant organs, and automatic blood clotting, would simply crush the jedi in hand to hand and remove the lightsaber.
The fact that you think that a Jedi is WS7 and initiative 7-10 is completely ridiculous and so off base that it significantly undermines your argument to the point that I honestly can't take you seriously any more.
ph34r wrote:
1. A lightsaber could not slash through power armor. Maybe if the jedi managed to get a solid stab off on the marine, he could pierce through, but is very likely that if stuck into a space marine, who has automatic pain blocking, redundant organs, and 2. automatic blood clotting, would simply crush the jedi in hand to hand and remove the lightsaber.
The fact that you think that a 3. Jedi is WS7 and initiative 7-10 is completely ridiculous and so off base that it significantly undermines your argument to the point that I honestly can't take you seriously any more.
1. Based on what, exactly?
2. Blood clotting is irrelevant, as the Lightsaber would cauterize the wound. Just saying
3. Really, do you need to be that nasty?
Also, some Jedi live for centuries as well. Yoda is quite vocal on the subject.
Is everyone forgetting that in Starwars there's also metals, including swords and ARMOR that stop light sabers? Forget what the stuff is called... but it exists. It's the same stuff Boba Fett wears around as armor. I know it's traditional Mandalorian. I know this, because I'm a bit of A Mandalorian fan (not Star Wars just Mandalorians) and I hate Jedi. So how do we know that the metals the Imperium uses in power swords and power armor isn't equally as resilient?
(By the way I think it's called bescargen (spelling?) or something like that
Grotzooka wrote:
Note: The die-off of all the Jedi at the end of RotS was rather unlikely and was a huge plot device. And I think the assumption is that both parties are fully aware of the other, so suprise is not an issue.
It's still fluff and still happened. If C.S Goto wrote tomorrow that a Gun Drone traveled back in time and killed the Emperor in CC before the Horus Heresy, there would probably a mass Suicide, and the remaining 40k players would have to accept that a Gun Drone killed the Emperor in CC.
And what about in Episode two when some Jedi died, knowing they were fighting droids?
Not every Jedi is Mace Windu/ Obi-wan/Yoda/Qui-gon. Jedi Masters can be Average, Librarians (and Space Marines in general, as much as I hate it) are WELL above average.
Grotzooka wrote:
Note: The die-off of all the Jedi at the end of RotS was rather unlikely and was a huge plot device. And I think the assumption is that both parties are fully aware of the other, so suprise is not an issue.
It's still fluff and still happened. If C.S Goto wrote tomorrow that a Gun Drone traveled back in time and killed the Emperor in CC before the Horus Heresy, there would probably a mass Suicide, and the remaining 40k players would have to accept that a Gun Drone killed the Emperor in CC.
And what about in Episode two when some Jedi died, knowing they were fighting droids?
Not every Jedi is Mace Windu/ Obi-wan/Yoda/Qui-gon. Jedi Masters can be Average, Librarians (and Space Marines in general, as much as I hate it) are WELL above average.
Ummm... no.
I would say that a Master, by definition, is above average.
Not the Jedi Masters. The rank and file, maybe. And if a Librarian's entire company suddenly turned on him with their bolt pistols he probably wouldn't live through it either.
Some Masters absolutely did die to mass small arms fire.
Just none of the plot important ones.
And given that the question was Master vs Chief Librarian, they are both at the top of their fields so to speak, so it wouldn't be like Anakin walking through the Academy gleefully swinging his saber through the younglings.
OK so if a jedi tried to block a bolt, it would just explode in the air and screw the jedi.
Librarians know the future, jedi do not (dont argue with it!)
It would take at least 10 seconds to cut through power armour, as it does to cut through the door in episode 1.
The slightest touch on your skin from a force weapon will obliterate your soul.
Jedi without force cannot wield lightsabers at all, they use the force to focus, and use it to know where their lightsaber blade is. Without that, they would find themselves in little pieces very quickly due to the weightlessness of the lightsaber.
First of all, drop the "ad homined", pal. If you can't have a discussion without resorting to personal snipes, forums are no place for you. Furthermore, this is a lighthearted(I presume, I honestly can't see it as anything different) debate about two different fictional universes. All you will ever get around here are opinions, not facts in any way, shape or form.
Now I normally tend to avoid these sort of discussions, but this one has come up a few times and I'm just wanting to throw my ideas out here for once.
Firstly I'll start off by saying this is essentially impossible to call, since different sources portray wildly different levels of ability and power from both Star Wars and 40K. Take episodes 1-3 for example, Jedi masters get gunned down like headless chickens on more than a few occasions, but in Force Unleashed, Starkiller is a godlike death-machine chewing through an entire army of soldiers, droids and armoured vehicles.
Again in 40K, the fluff says Mephiston when still a normal Marine survived a hopeless battle against the Orks, survived a building collapsing on him and then after days of this, burst from the rubble and dismantled a bunch of other Orks without his armour and using his bare hands. Conversely, the Dawn of War 2 intro video shows a Marine getting insta-killed by a shuriken pistol.
Which portrayals are more accurate?
Assuming we stick with only original sources i.e. The Star Wars films and 40K codex, I'd say the Librarian has a massive edge: Much stronger, as fast-if not faster-than the Jedi/Sith, and much more likely to survive any injury caused while still remaining combat effective.
Oh and as for the comment about the Jedi "Mind controlling the Librarian", you do realise that only works on the feeble minded right? I'm not sure a Librarian falls into that particular category if I'm honest...
Dear people who assume a glancing blow woth a force weapon instantly and automaticaly rends the living soul from the target,
Please remember that in-game, a psyker must pass a Psykic Test for the force weapon to insta-kill. Fluff-wise, the psyker must focus his power, not an easy thing at the best of times, but quite possibly more difficult in CC.
Yes, I know the Librarians have really good Ld. Still, there are always s.
Personaly, I would find fighting a psykic ninja with a power sword quite difficult, and my concentration could certainly slip.
I think what SaintHazard is trying to tell us is that Star Trek owns all.
And at the end of the day, a Librarian whisked to the Galaxy Far, Far Away exactly as he is in 40k, would be just a big brute with a chip on his shoulder. Same way if a Jedi was transported to 40k space, he'd soon find he's barely more than a guardsman with peerless medtation skills, the lot of good that would bring him.
If we are to bring the Jedi into the 40k, we'd have to assume they'd also have some form of psychic power denial/protection. And we have no clue what the powers would actually do in 40k. Because the way I see it, the reason why psykers are so strong in this universe is that they meddle with terrible power at ultimate personal risk: their souls. A Jedi is perfectly safe while using Force, except that the more passionate ones usually fall prey to their own ego. I'd still say the risk is marginal when compared to Librarians. So universe to universe, Librarians are more potent. If a Jedi was a psyker of 40k, I'm not sure that would be true.
Also, close combat is pretty self-explanatory. In gameplay terms, if a Jedi charged the Librarian(more likely as they'd certainly be Fleet) he'd either kill the Libro in their first set of attacks, or would be stomped under power armor foot. I see a combat oriented Jedi as a Harlequin(Same general stats, Fleet of foot, ignore difficult terrain, 5+ inv with no armor save) with a witchblade that ignores armor saves. Librarian with a SS would probably eat that Jedi for breakfast.
I think the powers are irrelevant really, as both are depicted as equally powerful in their respective Universes, however a Jedi's reactions are from the force so I reckon its more likely for the Superhuman Librarian to outlast and eventually outfight his opponent. But I like the idea of Star Trek hijacking the whole scene
Who'd win? Barack Obama or Ghengis Khan? Tanner Mirabel or Harry Dresden?
It's taking the two out of context or putting them in a context that is entirely favourable to one or the other. In case or Mr Obama, he isn't a fighter but the leader of arguably the most powerful nation in the world currently. In case of Harry Dresden it's assuming magic even work at all in the setting or that he's had the time to prepare. In the case of the Spess Mahreen, it is assuming that the setting in which we put them his mind won't be wide open to Jedi influence and for the Jedi that the underlying workings of the force even gives him the constant subconscious knowledge he need. Besides, a Jedi is much more a politician and spiritual leader whereas the Spess Mahreen is a dumb grunt (it's all relative) with excessive access to warp energies.
Who'd win? Jedi in Jedi universe, Libby in 40k universe. In a neutral universe? There's no such thing. They are defined from their surroundings, and putting them outside their area of definition makes them mean nothing.
But for the sake of it, I'd vote the Librarian. Why? 'cause this is a 40K forum with a Spess Mahreen dense population. Entities from other settings do not stand a chance.
I've just realised that I haven't actually provided any input, yet I started the discussion. My money would be on the Librarian, as apart from being physically stronger and tougher than the Jedi, their powers are much better than any Jedi power I've seen.
"Oh wow, you can summon lightning"
*bounces off Storm Shield*
*Libby summons a black hole and sucks Jedi to oblivion*
Monster Rain wrote:1. Based on what, exactly?
2. Blood clotting is irrelevant, as the Lightsaber would cauterize the wound. Just saying
3. Really, do you need to be that nasty?
Also, some Jedi live for centuries as well. Yoda is quite vocal on the subject.
Based on the fact that the only thing that jedi ever slash though are droids or people. They never slash through a thick armor column or blast door, it takes them significant time and pressing. Marine power armor would at least be able to deflect a glancing blow, which a librarian would be expert at considering he is physically faster, more powerful, and more trained and experienced in hand to hand combat.
You are right that blood clotting is irrelevant, it's just a part of the laundry list of immunities and defense.
Nasty? He suggested that a Jedi would be as skilled as the reincarnating, 10s of thousands of year old, literally pinnacle of martial achievement, physically and genetically more combat capable, eldar phoenix lords. And significantly faster, such that a jedi would make a phoenix lord seem sluggish by comparison. If that isn't completely off the rocker, I don't know what is.
Yoda lives for hundreds of years, sure, but physically he is extremely feeble. Even with his force enhancement, he is only "significantly fast and skilled" for a human/jedi. A physically weak person with force acrobatics and enhancements compared to a top-shape human who is then physically improved and then improved with armor and then improved again with quickening warp powers, is not as impressive. He additionally does not spend every waking moment training.
Araenion wrote:First of all, drop the "ad homined", pal. If you can't have a discussion without resorting to personal snipes, forums are no place for you. Furthermore, this is a lighthearted(I presume, I honestly can't see it as anything different) debate about two different fictional universes. All you will ever get around here are opinions, not facts in any way, shape or form.
It's a joke. I'm suggesting that you are heavily biased towards SW. No offense to your personal character meant by that. If you can't take a lighthearted jab, then well, take your own advice. In any case, my points still stand, unless you want to just lock onto my joke as an unwillingness to actually discuss and ignore everything else I said.
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Mahtamori wrote:Who'd win? Jedi in Jedi universe, Libby in 40k universe. In a neutral universe? There's no such thing. They are defined from their surroundings, and putting them outside their area of definition makes them mean nothing.
But for the sake of it, I'd vote the Librarian. Why? 'cause this is a 40K forum with a Spess Mahreen dense population. Entities from other settings do not stand a chance.
In SW only universe, Jedi wins due to librarian having no warp powers, but the librarian would still be able to at least put up a fight with his physical prowess and armor. He is definitely up there alongside the SW universe things that are non-force capable yet still dangerous to jedi.
In a 40k universe setting, the Librarian wins in a landslide as a Jedi has almost no close combat skill or power without the force.
In a neutral setting, I think that it still goes to the librarian given that he has such better physical powers. Unless we assume that Force powers are significantly more powerful than Psyker powers, the Librarian just flat out wins due to more training, experience, and raw physical power and toughness.
Jedi are not primarily warriors, they do not have advanced defensive and offensive technology, and they don't train as intensively as Marines. It's just not a fair fight at all.
ph34r wrote:Nasty? He suggested that a Jedi would be as skilled as the reincarnating, 10s of thousands of year old, literally pinnacle of martial achievement, physically and genetically more combat capable, eldar phoenix lords. And significantly faster, such that a jedi would make a phoenix lord seem sluggish by comparison. If that isn't completely off the rocker, I don't know what is.
In *their* universe, Jedi literally are pinnacles of martial achievement, physically and mentally capable of wonderous things. And it wasn't really my point, my point was that they'd be faster than Librarians and strike first in melee. Do you disagree with that?
Oh and also, if I'm off the rocker, then so is GW. I'm not the one that raises every Space Marine HQWS and BS with every new codex. Used to be WS5 was the norm(so I've heard), now a plain Ultramarine Captain has the same WS as a thousand-years old Eldar general. So take it up with them.
ph34r wrote:Yoda lives for hundreds of years, sure, but physically he is extremely feeble. Even with his force enhancement, he is only "significantly fast and skilled" for a human/jedi. A physically weak person with force acrobatics and enhancements compared to a top-shape human who is then physically improved and then improved with armor and then improved again with quickening warp powers, is not as impressive. He additionally does not spend every waking moment training.
Meditating is training for Jedi, because the stronger their connection to the Force, the stronger, faster and spiritually attuned they become. Star Wars universe is much more about the superiority of the immaterial than 40k is, demons coming out of some twisted, spirit-infested Hell-like plane notwithstanding. Hence the comparison is inherently out of place.
ph34r wrote:It's a joke. I'm suggesting that you are heavily biased towards SW. No offense to your personal character meant by that. If you can't take a lighthearted jab, then well, take your own advice. In any case, my points still stand, unless you want to just lock onto my joke as an unwillingness to actually discuss and ignore everything else I said.
Alright then, I didn't get the joking feel out of it, but let's chalk it up to the language barrier, shake hands and all that. As for my counter-argument, sure, I'm up for it.
ph34r wrote:In a neutral setting, I think that it still goes to the librarian given that he has such better physical powers. Unless we assume that Force powers are significantly more powerful than Psyker powers, the Librarian just flat out wins due to more training, experience, and raw physical power and toughness.
There can be no neutral setting between two "magic" styles. You can compare the physical prowess of Space Marine and Mech Warrior Clan warrior for instance, or plasma-wielding awesomeness of Zeratul or Mace Windu, but as soon as you delve into the surreal, you must make consessions. So either the Librarians crosses over or the Jedi does. For this argument, because this is a 40k forum, I'm assuming a Jedi would be the one crossing over. And I'm not sure what kind of potency their powers would then have, when they come at a signifactly greater personal risk than in their native setting. My guess is - stronger.
ph34r wrote:Jedi are not primarily warriors, they do not have advanced defensive and offensive technology, and they don't train as intensively as Marines. It's just not a fair fight at all.
I'm biased here. In Kotor games, I was always Jedi Guardian/Weapon Master. Force really wasn't interesting to me as much as the lightsaber melee. And the things that a combat-oriented Jedi Master can do when the force augments his body is something I doubt even a Phoenix Lord(and I'm biased toward PLs, I absolutely love Eldar lore) could pull off. Relative to their setting, in all seriousness.
My point is, I can give the Jedi S, T, WS and I all of 10 and I'd be no more right or wrong than you. Because they're from entirely different settings and all we can do is speculate based on our perspectives on the two. Keep that in mind before you decide someone is so unrighteously insane as to give a fictional character from a fictional place a higher skill swinging their fictional piece of wargear than you think they should have.
ph34r wrote:In a 40k universe setting, the Librarian wins in a landslide as a Jedi has almost no close combat skill or power without the force.
And with that I would disagree as has been shown in both rules and books the PH does not nullify passive powers. So a Jedis' enhancements wouldn't be affected.
1. Sure, but Jedi are just really good humans with powers. It stands to reason that better-than-humans with better powers, would be better.
And like hell a Jedi would strike first. A jedi is a human with force powers to quicken him. A Librarian is a top physical condition human, who is further enhanced, who is then given armor to make him faster still, who then uses powers to make him faster. Faster than a Jedi.
WS used to be all over the place, then 3rd edition made everything super bland, and now they are going back to representing their stats with more of the scale.
An ultramarine captain probably has nearly the same expertise in close combat as an eldar general, he has many advantages. The point here is both can beat the crap out of a jedi.
2. So if meditating is so important, why don't the Jedi have stronger powers? Many 40k powers far outstrip those of SW. The comparison is perfectly valid. If I am 100x physically stronger than you, and match your powers with my own, who will win? Me.
3. Yes, yes there can. Example: Both The Force and Psyker Powers exist. Bam. Neutral setting achieved. There is no reason that one can't say they both work.
4. An eldar could have the same combat style as a Jedi. However an Eldar would likely have significantly more experience, and the Eldar still have problems beating the Marines.
If you gave the Jedi 40k stats that were completely unfounded you would very much be more wrong than me. Just because they exist in two different settings, doesn't mean that we can't compare what they can do. You don't see me saying "you can't say which is stronger, the deathstar or a last pistol!" That argument makes no sense, right? It's just an exaggerated version of yours. Of course you can compare them.
@AndrewC by 40k universe setting I mean a "force doesn't exist" setting such as proposed as being one of the only two possibilities by the "no neutral universe" camp.
1. That's why a Librarian has Initiative 4, right? Because they're super fast? They're fast for humans and faster than lumbering Orks. They're certainly a good average among 40k races. It's physically impossible to move fast in that sort of armor even if it were made of cardboard. Simply because it's too large. Space Marines are genetically engineered killing machines, but a tyrannid is exactly that as well, only much faster because it has only its natural carapace to hold it back. That's why tyrannid carapace is 5/6+ while power armor is 3+. To represent the penalty of movement that comes at stronger protection. You simply can't have both, except in extremely rare cases like Phoenix Lords. But their armor is magical itself.
2. I already said why I believe this is true. Because in 40k universe, "magicians" dabble their souls to gain that power. Essentially, they make deals with the devil but pull out right before the signing. Except that sometimes they don't, so they end up breakfast for daemons. Jedi are more akin to Budhists. Delving into themselves to shape the inner power that is within all beings. Star Wars is a much more realistic setting(if you go by the original sources, the movies) even with all those cool stunt moves everyone pulls off. The magic there is usually very subtle, because it's natural. In 40k, magic is wild and chaotic, daemonic. Librarians, Farseers, Sorcerers, etc, act as a conduit to the source of that power, the Warp. It does not come from them, it comes through them. Saying that, a Jedi actually has much more innate power than a Librarian.
3. No, they cannot. Because both of those "sources" are divine in nature. When a living thing dies, it returns to the Force, its essence living forever. Except that it doesn't, it actually gets whisked away to the chaos of the Warp. These two forces can never co-exist, because they're polar opposites serving the same supposedly "neutral" purpose. There is no Heaven or Hell. There is only the Force. Or the Warp. See what I mean?
4. Force is not some superficial thing that comes and goes. It's the individual potential maxed. It's just a part of the Jedi as blood is to a normal living thing. And they can use it anytime, anywhere. To defy gravity, to crush people's veins from distance, or burn them in displays of pure energy. No Perils of the Force test needed to see if a daemonic entity will eat your soul. Eldar have experience, Space Marines have genetic engineering, Jedi have the Force. All the time. Even in their sleep. Even in the crapper. And that Space Marine can't lift a freight train to the air, can it now? Lot of good would his awesome armor do, when he can be crush-fitted into a nicely sized chocolate box together with it. And even without any armor, any weapons, a Jedi would still have his Force. So no, I doubt that hand-on-hand brawl would end well for the Marine.
Did you ever hear of that woman who saw her kid getting trapped beneath a car, lifting it with her bare hands? Of course her bones snapped thereafter, but she did it. Even a normal real-world person can do amazing things when they are determined. Jedi have that determination 24/7.
If you want to compare, try putting them in the same context first, because outside of that, it simply won't work. And to be honest, if something as awe-inspiring as a Jedi would be included into 40k, it'd certainly be more in line with the significance of the Phoenix Lords, than just your run-of-the-mill Space Marine Librarian. Even if it is a Chief Librarian, he'd still be just a G-mod human in a world of mighty star-races. A Jedi is a prenominal figure in the Galaxy Far, Far away, regardless of their race. You can bet he'd be an important factor in 40k as well.
Grey knight librarian would dominate the jedi knight...
you didn't say which chapter!
Grey knight has the aegis suit, which would nullify any force powers trying to get at the librarian. The Halabard would probably be light-sabre resistant (remembering that these parry deamon weapons of massive power).
Jedi knight would probably last approximately an hour or so before they slowed and died. (as shown in ROTS and clone wars) Space marine would keep on powering.
Assuming the lightsabre is a las weapon and he only has Lash of Submission and a psychic shooting attack (i'll be generous and say it's an assault weapon), with no armor?
1. Marine stats in the game undersell their strength greatly for the purpose of gameplay. Read a book, or the rulebook, or a codex. Marines are explicitly stated as not being slowed down by their armor, due to black carapace.
2. No, they don't. It's just slightly risky to use 40k powers, much like a plasma gun is slightly risky to shoot. You don't see anyone saying "waah, you can't say plasma guns are stronger than blasters! they are dangerous!"
And I don't care how much "innate power" or awesome meditation a Jedi has. It's a simple check: Are Jedi Powers Generally Stronger Than Librarian Powers? Answer: no. The end.
3. No. You are being intentionally dense. You don't have to say that the Force and the Warp coexist in a meaningful way in a persistent universe that makes internal sense. All you have to say is "both psykers and jedi powers work" and you can have a competition. Except oh wait, you don't want the competition to be valid, because you realize that I am right and you want to invalidate the entire argument. Cool.
4. lollll no. In the movies, the greatest Jedi around still defeat mundane opponents with effort. Average Jedi are killed by average troopers. Each Jedi is clearly not depicted as a 100% effort, lifting cars, punching through walls, snatching your gun out of your hand faster than you can blink, badass. Like, not even close. Where do the Jedi just prance along the front lines, mentally compacting Seperatist assault vehicles into tiny boxes? I must have missed that part, but I did see a whole lot of them charging forwards and using their light saber. But then again I've watched the movies. Have you? From your posts it does not seem like you have..?
A Jedi gets into hand to hand combat with a librarian. What happens? The Jedi uses the force, the Librarian uses quickening. They are the same thing in effect. The librarian additionally has top-human build, plus genetic enhancements, plus armor. It's really simple. I honestly 100% no troll don't understand how you don't understand this.
Jedi are not "super awe inspiring oh my god they are better than the superior-to-human-ancient-psychic-space-elf-god-of-war". They are an order of dudes with powers. There are thousands of them. They are trained for a few years, and then they train themselves for a few decades, and then they die.
The thought that a Jedi is more significant than a Phoenix Lord is mind bogglingly stupid and I don't even know how to approach understanding it.
... why a Chief Librarian? It's not as if Librarians are necessarily any more powerful than human psykers. Indeed, a Primaris Psykers in the fluff can actually become far more powerful than the Librarian you see on tabletop, doing such things as stopping time, banishing daemons with a single word, creating flames so hot that it burns the soul as well as the body, inspiring entire armies to greater glory, creating army-sized storms of psychic fire/lightning, boiling a person's blood in their body with a thought, and so on.
And they're better protected from the perils of the warp than Librarians, to boot. Jedi don't stand a chance in hell.
Not really. As noted above, jedi are still human... well, equivalent to human anyway, as while many of them are xeno they still die roughly as easily as a human (with the exception of a few abiltiies like holding their breath and etc). So a human opponent is more equivalent, yes?
Alpharius wrote:And since not all Jedi are human...
... ahem. Put in bold because you apparently missed it.
Melissia wrote:Not really. As noted above, jedi are still human... well, equivalent to human anyway, as while many of them are xeno they still die roughly as easily as a human (with the exception of a few abiltiies like holding their breath and etc). So a human opponent is more equivalent, yes?
The source for this is, if you need one, the D20 Star Wars game. The various races that can become a Jedi are still all humanlike in endurance, strength, durability, and so on, with only slight variations-- in 40k, all of them would be classified as T3.
The point is, this is the grim dark, EMO, future. It cuts itself regularly just to see what colour of blood comes out this time. Obviously, if you pitch anyone from a more mentally balanced alternate reality into this one, that person will die horribly.
I mean, even the elves in this universe has stopped picking flowers and started worshipping a war god, think a human skull is a laughing matter, and call an entire race "Must Be Slain". And those are the "good" elves.
Melissia wrote:
Alpharius wrote:And since not all Jedi are human...
... ahem. Put in bold because you apparently missed it.
Melissia wrote:Not really. As noted above, jedi are still human... well, equivalent to human anyway, as while many of them are xeno they still die roughly as easily as a human (with the exception of a few abiltiies like holding their breath and etc). So a human opponent is more equivalent, yes?
The source for this is, if you need one, the D20 Star Wars game. The various races that can become a Jedi are still all humanlike in endurance, strength, durability, and so on, with only slight variations-- in 40k, all of them would be classified as T3.
As a minor note, a Space Marine in a D20 setting wouldn't be a whole lot different from an Orc in Dragonlance setting. D20 has a marvellous way of having all medium-sized creatures merely 2 stat points apart with equal drawbacks as benefits - unless they're supernatural (such as angels or demons).
Melissia wrote:Touche I suppose. D20 is an inherently clunky system (but then, so is D6...).
Still, the aliens that commonly become Jedi are very much humanlike in ability.
Oh, I'm fairly certain the Jedi will die in a straight up fight - just as I'm fairly certain the Librarian will fall to the old Jedi mind trick /wavehand "I am the emperaaah"
Oh wait, I think a Librarian can probably just dominate the Jedi's mind instead and control them that way... even non-Primaris human psykers can do that.
Err, no, I don't recall reading about a Jedi power that could force a strong-willed opponent to stab his sword into his throat...
... but a Sith certainly could. Many "Dark Side" powers are somewhat more effective than "Light Side" powers (Force Persuasion isn't as powerful as Mind Control in this instance), though the reverse of that is also true.
Though I'm almost certain there's been at least one instance of what you just described in the Expanded Universe. Not that that'd be canon. Just sayin'.
LordWynne wrote:I would go Jedi/Sith Lord as they can manipulate the minds of other. For instance, "Librarian tries to shot a Jedi/Sith Lord" the Jedi/Sith Lord uses mind control and the bolt blast goes another direction. In Star Wars yes the Jedi/Sith mind can redirict pysical attacks, a Librarian has a bolt pistol, Force Sword, a Jedi/Sith has a Lightsaber. An Energy Blade used with the force to cut through and object. The best the Librarian can do is take his Force Sword and hope it works and may deflect the lighsaber. The Jedi/Sith using the force in combat would be superior as his mental attacks are greater. One Librarian Dead being way to slow and not adgile.
I agree, a librarian would not win against a jedi.
However, if a farseer were to fight a jedi the farseer would win because:
1: 4+ invulnerable save acts as a forcefield like on the droidikas (episode I, aboard the confederate cruiser)
2: a farseer could predict the jedi's moves before the jedi knew he was going to use them (fortune psychic power)
3: the farseer could (and probably would) pump the jedi full of shurikens before he could draw his lightsaber (as he could use his powers of prediction to sneak up behind said jedi)
4. the farseer is motivated by the survival of his species rather than some outdated code of chivalry, and hence would not be afraid to play dirty.
Whirling Blade Exarch wrote:
I agree, a librarian would not win against a jedi.
However, if a farseer were to fight a jedi the farseer would win because:
1: 4+ invulnerable save acts as a forcefield like on the droidikas (episode I, aboard the confederate cruiser)
2: a farseer could predict the jedi's moves before the jedi knew he was going to use them (fortune psychic power)
3: the farseer could (and probably would) pump the jedi full of shurikens before he could draw his lightsaber (as he could use his powers of prediction to sneak up behind said jedi)
4. the farseer is motivated by the survival of his species rather than some outdated code of chivalry, and hence would not be afraid to play dirty.
I disagree!
1. A Librarian could get a 3+ invulnerable save (Storm Shield)
2. Librarians in the 4th Ed. Codex had a very similar power.
3. Storm Bolter
4. Not many marines are 'motivated by chivalry' and last time I checked, in the Ultimate Grimdark of the 41st millennium, Mankind is on the verge of extinction from every side, threats both external and internal.
Again, 40K and Star Wars really don't mesh well at all, and ultimately, no one is right and everyone is!
Librarian. Hey, you want to throw me into a wall? I'm 3 tons and I can boil your blood, shoot purple lightning out of my hands, rend you in half, teleport you into the warp, AND shoot you with my mass-reactive bolts and rip your face off with a chainsword.
I'll say the Librarian would win. The lightsaber is probably a better weapon than the force sword is in this situation, but the armor's still going to be too much for the Jedi to handle, and the Librarians seem to display more powerful abilities, at least as far as combat is concerned (though not by too large of a margin).
Additional things to consider about a Jedi's power level:
A lightsaber can be blocked by an energized staff weapon, as seen in Episode 3.
Two jedi considered flight preferable to fight when confronted with two droids with rapid fire lasers and shields. Not exactly fearsome.
I don't see why people think that the Jedi are faster than a Librarian would be. They're not moving at super-human speeds in the movies, although they are certainly very skilled in combat. They couldn't match on Harlequins, speed wise, and honestly, they're probably only about even with Space Marines. The Jedi's powers aren't going to be much help either, since they're at least matched with the Librarians pretty much everywhere (I would say, however, that the Psychic Hood wouldn't be able to nullify the Jedi's abilities, as they are based in the Force rather than the Warp).
The Jedi's only real advantage in this fight is the lightsaber, which is an excellent weapon. However, the Librarian's armor and physiology is probably going to render the lightsaber insufficient to win (Power Armor is probably the equivalent in material to the blast doors in Phantom Menace, though obviously not as thick).
Honestly, this isn't really even too fair of a match up. The best equivalent to a Jedi in the 40k universe would probably be a psychic Inquisitor Lord, both in ability and in the general role they play within their universe.
Jedi CAN move at superhuman speeds, however, using a force ability called "Force Speed" (a functional if unoriginal name). I don't think it was as powerful as it sounds though, as its main use was the ability to run long distances according to wookiepedia, not to actually move a lot faster. And only jedi masters could apparently really use it in combat that way.
Melissia wrote:Jedi CAN move at superhuman speeds, however, using a force ability called "Force Speed" (a functional if unoriginal name). I don't think it was as powerful as it sounds though, as its main use was the ability to run long distances according to wookiepedia, not to actually move a lot faster. And only jedi masters could apparently really use it in combat that way.
The Jedi Knight series of games (which, IIRC, are considered canon, like most LucasArts works) allowed you to use the power to make quick dashes in combat, and you were far from a Jedi Master in that series (especially in III: Jedi Academy, where you were - you guessed it - a Jedi apprentice). Furthermore, there was another power (can't remember what it's called) that allowed you to essentially slow down time and move at incredible speeds for a few seconds at a time. No real combat application (it was used to get through closing doors) in the game, but theoretically it could be used by a Jedi in a less restricting setting.
And I'm not quite sure the assertion (can't remember who made it) that Jedi are all comparable to human beings is entirely correct - we have examples of Wookiees and Trandoshans becoming Jedi, both of which are significantly tougher and stronger than your average human, and Zabraks and Twi'leks, both of which are significantly more nimble than your average human.
True, I never said ALL of them were, I said most races were roughly equivalent to humans. In a D20 system, races like Wookies would have a level penalty (IE, they require XP one, two, or more levels above their current level) to represent the advantage they have, as some races are very distinctly superior to humans in most ways (sometimes in pretty much every way depending on how mary sue the author makes them to be).
Why is this even in question? Of course a Librarian beats a Jedi. A *Tactical Marine* probably beats a Jedi. Consider that Jango Fett, (elite human), can kill Jedi; a Tactical Marine (ultra elite superhuman), should definitely be able to take one out, especially given his superior equipment.
Jango also hunted and killed Sith and Jedi for most of his adult life, along with being a member of a "race"(in quotes since Mandalorians are a group that does alot of adoption, and is really more of an organization/mercenary outfit than a race) that knows all the tricks of the trade for bringing down snarky Force adept individuals.
Jango Fett would probably be closest to a Rogue Trader or an Inquisitor, 40k-wise, and it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine one of them taking out a Space Marine. They've got enough tricks.
SaintHazard wrote:The Jedi Knight series of games (which, IIRC, are considered canon, like most LucasArts works) allowed you to use the power to make quick dashes in combat, and you were far from a Jedi Master in that series (especially in III: Jedi Academy, where you were - you guessed it - a Jedi apprentice). Furthermore, there was another power (can't remember what it's called) that allowed you to essentially slow down time and move at incredible speeds for a few seconds at a time. No real combat application (it was used to get through closing doors) in the game, but theoretically it could be used by a Jedi in a less restricting setting.
Is this ability to dash in combat moving them at inhuman speeds? This would sort of be the crux of the issue, regarding the divide between human and superhuman. However, I would think that in any case the dashing ability would be of limited use, since I don't think the Jedi would want to close with a marine.
An ability used to move quickly through doors but isn't used in combat is a bit suspect, so far as abilities go. None of the movies show the Jedi doing things at "bullet-time" speed, though they most certainly would have been better off using them in many situations if they could. The Jedi would be concentrating on not cutting himself in half with his lightsaber and not getting mind-blasted (or chopped in half, or shot) by the Librarian during the fight as well, so if there's a limitation on the ability's use in combat, it would probably be making itself present.
Now one thing Jedi do have going for them is that ability to jump around like a melon-fether. However, the practical applications of this in a fight aren't anything too special, unless the fight is taking place in some sort of ridiculous fiery whirling blade factory. I suppose it may help with the height disadvantage. They're probably going to need to go for the head if they want a quick kill.
Also, keep in mind that the lightsabre is designed to reflect blaster shots. A bolter shell would probably explode upon the lightsabre, harming the Jedi. Fun times.
Melissia wrote:Also, keep in mind that the lightsabre is designed to reflect blaster shots. A bolter shell would probably explode upon the lightsabre, harming the Jedi. Fun times.
Well, since bolter shells move at subsonic speeds (IIRC), I call upon the Jedi's precognition and preternatural swiftness to dodge the bolts instead of deflecting them.
Well I think a "normal" Jedi is basically on par with something like a Calidus assassin. Minus the polymorph. The sword is the closest thing to a lightsaber and the neural shredder can be like some offensive force power. Works well on low leadership units, not so againts the strong willed. 4+ dodge save, jump back. More or less a very well trained human with unique skills.
If were talking about named characters, then you have to compare guys like Mephiston, Calgar, Tigurius etc against guys like Mace Windu, Yoda and so on.
I'm going to have to say that a Master Jedi could take out a chief librarian easily. In the short 15 minute long cartoons on Cartoon Network. Mace Windu takes out an entire army droids with a giant vehicle by himself and Yoda Brings down a couple of battle cruisers with just his mind. I don't think a Librarian would be able to take out an entire army on his own.
Err, no? The Lightsabre is roughly equivalent to a power sword. Actually, there are power swords that are basically lightsabres in the fluff.
Also, the reason why armies aren't taken out by psykers in 40k is because the 40k armies don't suck.
Seriously, the Trade Federation army got taken out by a bunch of primitives wielding atlatls, catapults, and spears. The Empire's army got taken down by a bunch of small little furry things with, and I wish I was fething kidding, sticks and stones.
LordWynne wrote:I would go Jedi/Sith Lord as they can manipulate the minds of other.
Only on weak-minded individuals, however. A Librarian, given the nature of his powers, has immense willpower, and would probably not be as susceptible to this.
On what are you basing this adamant assertion that a Lightsaber is the equivalent of a Power Sword? Believe it or not, Star Wars already has Vibro-weapons which are more similar to power weapons than Lightsabers.
A power sword isn't capable of cutting through armored bulkheads, a Lightsaber is. It's better than a power weapon.
The question was whether a Jedi or Sith Master could beat a Chief Librarian.
A Chief Librarian is the senior most Librarian in a chapter. This doesn't tell us much about his power. The Chief Librarian of the Novamarines might be weaker than a lot of the regular Librarians in the Ultramarines, for example.
Jedi don't like fighting. If they could they'd only ever use the Force to heal people and knit daisy chains. They usually award the title of Master to Jedi Knights who have successfully trained Padawan, which has nothing to do with combat. There are many Jedi Masters who haven't ever fought in a battle. There are Force powers that do nothing but make plants grow (seriously). To quote Skywalker;
"Remember, a Jedi fights only as a last resort. If you are forced to draw your lightsaber, you have already forfeited much of your advantage."
Sith? This guy isn't even a Sith Master. He's an apprentice. If you're at work and can't watch that video, he uses the Force to pull a Star Destroyer out of the sky while defending against multiple waves of Tie Fighters. And yes, Force Unleashed is canon.
Of course, there are only 2 or 3 Sith around during the time of the films, but the OP didn't make any caveats for that. He also didn't specify a time frame (there were plenty of Sith during the Old Republic).
I'd say a Jedi Master loses to a Chief Librarian, probably gladly. A Jedi Master would rather lose and die than resort to using the Force in the way necessary to take a Librarian down. See; Obi-wan vs Vader.
The Sith Master would turn the Librarian into an exceptionally small metal raisin. Then blow up the Battle Barge he flew in on for laughs.
Monster Rain wrote:On what are you basing this adamant assertion that a Lightsaber is the equivalent of a Power Sword?
Every single description of power weapons... ever?
The very fact that there is a power weapon which is literally just a sword handle that creates a sword of energy-- and in fact multiple variants of this weapon (Eisenhorn has one variant, and there's another in Dark Heresy)-- makes the comparison quite obvious.
Index85 wrote:I'm going to have to say that a Master Jedi could take out a chief librarian easily. In the short 15 minute long cartoons on Cartoon Network. Mace Windu takes out an entire army droids with a giant vehicle by himself and Yoda Brings down a couple of battle cruisers with just his mind. I don't think a Librarian would be able to take out an entire army on his own.
Unfortunately, I think that Star Wars: Clone Wars (the Cartoon Network version) isn't official cannon, though I could be wrong.
I'd love to be able to say that the Jedi would win, but I don't think a Jedi would. In the movies, you can actually see the blaster shots traveling. Since bullets in real life move way faster than the naked eye can see, I can only conclude that blaster shots move ridiculously slow. I think a guardsman with a lasgun could shoot a Jedi and he wouldn't be able to block it. In fact, I think you or I could kill a Jedi Master with a standard rifle.
All the Librarian would have to do it shoot a boltpistol at the Jedi and kill him. Of course, in CC, a Lightsaber would destroy a Librarian.
Grakmar wrote:All the Librarian would have to do it shoot a boltpistol at the Jedi and kill him. Of course, in CC, a Lightsaber would destroy a Librarian.
Possibly not. I don't think Lightsabers go through force-field type doo-wots, so if the Librarian had his Iron Halo switched on (Provided they can have one), a major advantage of the lightsaber would be gone. Even then, dismemberment affects a SMs fighting ability much less than you'd think, so the Jedi would have to be damn snappy about killing the Librarian before he had a chance to retaliate or even pre-emptively cut the unfortunate force-wielder up.
Grakmar wrote:All the Librarian would have to do it shoot a boltpistol at the Jedi and kill him. Of course, in CC, a Lightsaber would destroy a Librarian.
No it wouldn't. "Force Weapons" exist in both settings, and are actually quite close to eachother in effect and design.
Force Weapons in Star Wars are imbued with the wielder's force presence (it's actually a little known force power), and can block lightsabers. Force Weapons in Warhammer 40,000 are imbued with the wielder's psychic presence... and can in most interpretations block power weapons, as well as act as power weapons using the psychic force of the wielder.
So... actually the Librarian would be able to block the lightsaber with his force staff / force sword. While the lightsabre would be faster than the force weapon, the force weapon is less dangerous to the Librarian than the lightsaber is to the Jedi, making it easier to block, especially with a force staff.
And let's not forget that the average Marine fights dirty (or at least in such a way as to maximise his chances of winning), whilst Jedi use a fairly rigid combat style.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:And let's not forget that the average Marine fights dirty (or at least in such a way as to maximise his chances of winning), whilst Jedi use a fairly rigid combat style.
That's true. When Darth Maul fought Qui-Gon with his "I'm going to attack you with a weapon that looks totally badass but has a better chance of hurting myself than you" approach, Qui-Gon still couldn't manage to win.
Melissia wrote:Also, keep in mind that the lightsabre is designed to reflect blaster shots. A bolter shell would probably explode upon the lightsabre, harming the Jedi. Fun times.
Just stepping in here... a lightsabre can be used to deflect blaster shots, but the lightsabre predates blaster combat. Form III and Form V of lightsaber combat were developed in part due to the proliferation of blasters. Speaking of forms, consideration of which forms the Jedi Master was proficient in and level of mastery is kind of important as well. With respect to this, Obi-wan seems to be a good benchmark Jedi Master, as his main character billing places him above the weak sauce cannon fodder masters shown in AotC, and under the uber-masters such as Yoda and Mace Windu.
Melissia wrote:Also, keep in mind that the lightsabre is designed to reflect blaster shots. A bolter shell would probably explode upon the lightsabre, harming the Jedi. Fun times.
Just stepping in here... a lightsabre can be used to deflect blaster shots, but the lightsabre predates blaster combat. Form III and Form V of lightsaber combat were developed in part due to the proliferation of blasters. Speaking of forms, consideration of which forms the Jedi Master was proficient in and level of mastery is kind of important as well. With respect to this, Obi-wan seems to be a good benchmark Jedi Master, as his main character billing places him above the weak sauce cannon fodder masters shown in AotC, and under the uber-masters such as Yoda and Mace Windu.
IIRC, Obi-wan specialized in both Form III and Form IV, right? Form IV is highly acrobatic and makes liberal use of Force powers to augment it. If the Librarian's psychic hood neutralizes Force power, Obi-Wan would most likely be screwed.
abaddon=gargamel wrote:Im going with the jedi, librarians aren't fast enough.
Librarians are far more nimble than the average human. A human needs to train to very high levels of close combat capability to match a Librarian. And even then, they'd need to be a psyker because the Librarian can enhance their prowess with psychic powers.
SaintHazard wrote:IIRC, Obi-wan specialized in both Form III and Form IV, right? Form IV is highly acrobatic and makes liberal use of Force powers to augment it. If the Librarian's psychic hood neutralizes Force power, Obi-Wan would most likely be screwed.
Obi-Wan started with form IV under Qui-Gon, but switched over to Form III after Qui-Gon was killed. Form III being a defensive form might be effective vs a librarian, but hey, who knows... I don't actually care about the outcome - I just came to watch the internet nerds rage against each other.
As for the Force = Psychic Powers arguement... The Force, as described by Yoda is the "force that binds all living things together...", suggesting some sort of gestalt life-force field, where as Psykers harness the extra-dimensional power of the warp. I personally think its ludicrous to try and compare them as they are clearly seperate things, let alone suggest that a psychic hood would be some sort of Force nullifier. To take it a step further, as the Force is generated by living things, it would stand to reason that the Jedi, through the hated "midichlorians" is able to access Force powers in the 40k-verse, but the reverse wouldn't be true for the Librarian... at any rate...
Binds the universe together? Check.
Mysterious and only easily accessible by specialists? Check.
Requires some predisposition in order to properly harness? Check.
Can be transmuted into raw energy by the sheer will of the user? Check.
Can be used to augment one's abilities? Check.
Can be imbued in nonliving objects? Check.
Melissia wrote:"Midichlorians" don't exist in 40k.
Neither do Jedi. The Jedi, if something like this were to happen, would have midichlorians in his blood because that's where the force comes from and what makes him a Jedi.
Also, I doubt the psychic hood would work on a Jedi's passive abilities. I imagine Obi Wan would still be able to use his Lightsaber form, just as a Warlock still gets to use Enhance even when there's a psychic hood around.
SaintHazard wrote:Well, let's see. Immaterium versus Force?
Binds the universe together? Check.
Mysterious and only easily accessible by specialists? Check.
Requires some predisposition in order to properly harness? Check.
Can be transmuted into raw energy by the sheer will of the user? Check.
Can be used to augment one's abilities? Check.
Can be imbued in nonliving objects? Check.
Sound pretty similar to me.
Now you're just being obtuse... That's like saying a horse is similar to a car in a transportational context.
Mode of transportation used to decrease travel time? Check.
Enables greater carrying capacity for cargo? Check.
Carries more than one passenger? Check.
Requires training to operate? Check.
Requires regular applications of fuel? Arguable, based on definition of fuel, but Check.
Generates waste products? Check.
SaintHazard wrote:Yes, they do, which is why it's perfectly reasonable to muse about who'd win in a race - a guy on a horse or a guy driving a car.
Sure - that would apply if you were directly comparing if the Force and Warp... however, in this case, this thin application of "sameness" is only being used to justify the Psychic Hood's ability to nullify force powers. That would be like saying that because the horse and car are similar, it is reasonable to expect that the horse is also powered by gasoline. (Which, while off topic, sounds hillariously awesome.)
SaintHazard wrote:Yes, they do, which is why it's perfectly reasonable to muse about who'd win in a race - a guy on a horse or a guy driving a car.
Sure - that would apply if you were directly comparing if the Force and Warp... however, in this case, this thin application of "sameness" is only being used to justify the Psychic Hood's ability to nullify force powers. That would be like saying that because the horse and car are similar, it is reasonable to expect that the horse is also powered by gasoline. (Which, while off topic, sounds hillariously awesome.)
You didn't notice any of the "ifs" in my posts regarding that point, did you?
@SaintHazard: You didn't notice that you weren't the only one noting that the Force might = Psychic Powers... in fact, there are a number of others earlier in the thread who are downright adamant about it. Original post was aimed at them... but hey, something good did come out of it. We have Chuck Norris in the thread. He could beat a Jedi and a Librarian. At the same time. Riding a gasoline powered horse.
Noticed someone commenting on the quickness of the Librarian not being enough to match the Jedi.
I disagree.
Space Marines, despite their bulk, are scarily fast. Their reaction times are markedly superior to that of trained humans, and that's just your standard battle-brother. A Chief Librarian has had centuries in which to hone his combat skills, and coupled with his innate psychic powers, the speed at which a Librarian can strike is more than a match for the Jedi.
In addition, we already know that simply removing a limb or even disembowelling a SM is often not enough to stop him from punching your skull so hard it breaks apart, due to their massively enhanced constitution, so even if the Jedi got the first swing in, there is a reasonable chance he would never be able to make a second attack. The best chance the Jedi has is to behead the SM, and if the Librarian has the centuries of experience that we know he does, then he may well be ready for that.
Hey, maybe we're all just thinking about this the wrong way.
After all, what is a Jedi Master? Someone who spent their whole life obsessing about Star Wars.
And, what is a Chief Librarian? Someone who spent their whole life obsessing about WH40K.
In other words, they are both just giant nerds!
I think their fight wouldn't be them attacking each other. I think their "fight" would just be an argument over who is more evil, a Demon Prince or a Sith Lord. And, in a fight of that nerdiness, no one wins.
keezus wrote:To take it a step further, as the Force is generated by living things, it would stand to reason that the Jedi, through the hated "midichlorians" is able to access Force powers in the 40k-verse, but the reverse wouldn't be true for the Librarian... at any rate...
Actually, while people often make the assumption that there would be two "universes" in this situation, I don't this is actually supported. Star Wars takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away... but in this universe. 40k takes place in the grim darkness of the far future... of this universe. By each cannon, the universe everything takes place in is this one, which means 40k and Star Wars are taking place in the same universe, at different times, and in different places. As far as I know the 40k cannon is that the Warp has always existed and exists throughout the material universe, although its nature may vary significantly, so it should be present on, say, the Death Star. Similarly, any ability the force has to "flow" through things should be unimpeded on, say, Cadia.
Also, Master Chief Librarian would totally kick Master Chief Jedi's ass. He is a 133 sn1p3r, and would just no scope him in the face with his tactics.
ing arse.
That's like saying a horse is similar to a car in a transportational context.
