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Post by: nomsheep
can anyone think of a fluffy reason why tau might turn renegade(not farsight-related) ?
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Post by: 4M2A
The only way Tau are ever going to leave is that they just feel like it (as farsight did). Tau are unlikely to ever worship chaos for multiple reasons:
Being a very un psychic race they don't even know what it really is.
Due to the nature of their souls possesion is very diifficult if not impossible. Most daemons wouldn't even consider trying.
Tau culture would make it very easily for an ethereal to spot it.
The isn't really a point. Unlike psychic races Chaos can't offer them anything.
If you want renegade tau they need to leave for their owb reasons.
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Post by: nomsheep
do tau have souls?
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Post by: Retrias
They have little warp presence if any at all
that would put them at , yes they probably have souls, they are living after all
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Post by: nomsheep
in theory those souls could be 'borrowed' by a crafty witch and used as a bargining tool?
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Post by: 1hadhq
This would be a ton of lightweigth Tau souls to be worth considering as offer.
Chaos could take over their allies. Maybe Tau civilians as hostages.
Bargain is : Tau join their former allies and fight for chaos or civillians die.
Should the Tau think of the civilists death as 'for the greater good'? Maybe.
But if its relatives of them and their etherals? Still sacrifice them?
Chaos may be able to press them into service temporarly.
Better option would be Tau secessionists.
A colony could aim to be independent and leave the Empire.
Farsight has proven its possible to leave.
These Tau could have left peacefully ( unlikely ), based on loss of their etherals ( unimaginative ), influenced by their environment or
new pets which turn out to be more than able to swap roles and secretly guide the Tau on their new course.
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Post by: Darth Bob
Retrias wrote:yes they probably have souls, they are living after all
The fact that you are alive in the 40k universe has no bearing on the presence or lack of a soul. Psychic Nulls like the Culexus Assassins are, for all intents and purposes, soulless, and yet are still very much alive.
Honestly, to me, Chaos Tau sounds a bit silly. It really makes no sense, fluff wise, and you'd be better off just making them renegades like Farsight and his crew. That said, if you want them to be gritty and dark, by all means, have at it. You could make them something along the lines of ruthless Space Pirates. They could be victims of mental disease causing psychosis and the like, or maybe even be Tau outlaws. However, a cult of Chaos Tau is just unfluffy in almost every aspect.
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Post by: MagicJuggler
The simplest reason that Tau would change from their Utilitarian philosophy would be if an Ethereal-deprived Tau were to, on the ruins of a former Deathworld, find a still-preserved copy of Atlas Shrugged. 
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Post by: pharom
MagicJuggler wrote:The simplest reason that Tau would change from their Utilitarian philosophy would be if an Ethereal-deprived Tau were to, on the ruins of a former Deathworld, find a still-preserved copy of Atlas Shrugged.
Just wait till a bunch of Kroot start to play Bioshock =(
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Post by: rabidaskal
Dunno about Chaos Tau, but Renegade Tau would definitely be doable and easy to explain fluff-wise. Just come up with a scenario where the Tau force in question gets bitten in the butt in the name of the Greater Good. Stay behind on this planet right in the path of a Tyranid devourer fleet. Sure you'll be slowly eaten alive while screaming, but its for the Greater Good! We gotta evac the Ethereals first see . . .
Tau Commander: this was ok when it happened to my other 3 brothers and best friend back in Tau military school, but enough is enough! The greater good can suck it, I'm outta here, let's go men!
Then a greater demon appears and offers the Tau power, immortality, and a way of the doomed planet . . . hmmmm see this is where it gets unbelievable. Well maybe someone else can make it work lol.
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Post by: Smarteye
Allmost impossible...unless say a high-up Tau commander starts using an extremely powerful Chaos weapon.
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Post by: nomsheep
I did have an idea,regarding renegade tau that had been tempted in to slanneeshi worship. (akin to the way we worship our gods, they don't mutate us, we just do things in their name).
They are a small planet on the edge of the farsight enclsves, who without the guiding light of the ethereals have began to return to the mont'au - when some kind of slanneshi deaomn wearign a mask, showed up and reorganized whilst persuading them to devote themselves to her. 
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Post by: Kroothawk
nomsheep wrote:can anyone think of a fluffy reason why tau might turn renegade(not farsight-related) ?
Non-chaotic rebels like Farsight are possible when there are no ethereals around.
Background makes it quite clear that there are no Chaos Tau, not a single one and certainly not an army. Best example is the novel Firewarrior where Chaos attempts to corrupt a single, unusually emotional, battle worn Fire Warrior and fails utterly (paradoxically this novel is often presented as an example of Chaos Tau in the hope that noone has read the book until the end). Tau can be deceived by Chaos, single Tau can be broken and/or killed by CHaos, but not corrupted. Xenology even hints at the fact that Eldar created ethereals to make Tau immune to Chaos, but up to now this is not backed by other sources.
Only thing similar to Chaos corruption is Tau in old Mont'au times, before ethereals arrived and ended the civil war.
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Post by: doctorludo
Every army should have its renegades - gives you the chance to invent your own paint schemes and doctrines. You don't need chaos to create a weird and discordant army, though admittedly it would be fun to mix the styles.
What about genestealer hybrids?
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Post by: Retribution
The Tau themselves are basically immune to the taint of chaos, their allies, however, are not
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Post by: nomsheep
doctorludo wrote:
Every army should have its renegades - gives you the chance to invent your own paint schemes and doctrines. You don't need chaos to create a weird and discordant army, though admittedly it would be fun to mix the styles.
What about genestealer hybrids?
i'd never really considered turning them into a genestealer cullt. hmm..?
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Post by: doctorludo
"Sir, we appear to be under attack from genestealers."
"By the Emperor, we are doomed."
"It's worse than that, sir...
They've got firepower."
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Post by: asimo77
I'm sure a Tzeentchian daemon would be able to fool some tau or trick them sufficiently to do whatever they want possibly even abandon the greater good or whatever. As far as I know you don't have to be possessed for Tzeentch and friends to manipulate you. Then there's always the Deciever and even eldar possibly (it's even hinted in Xenology that they created the ethereals). Plus the whole being fooled thing fits with the tau being naive upstarts.
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Post by: stompydakka
tau's big thing is "for the greater good" so i can't see them turning.
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Post by: Black Corsair
stompydakka wrote:tau's big thing is "for the greater good" so i can't see them turning.
well, you have reason, and all we know they are nearly immune to Chaos effects, but.... what about alteration of their perception about the "greater good", a subtle and gradual corruption of their believes? i think it can be possible, hard and long lasting effect, but possible
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Post by: stompydakka
maybe.... a sort of twisted belief that for the greater good includes murdering their brothers/other non-chaos factions
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Post by: nomsheep
which god would be best though?
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Post by: Black Corsair
nomsheep wrote:which god would be best though?
Tzeentch with no doubt!!! is the only one really able to corrupt the Tau by pure Trickery, remember they're nearly immune to chaos
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Post by: nomsheep
touche,
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Post by: LooT
Way back in White Dwarf 280-something, when the Daemonhunters had been released for about a month or two, GW did an article on Daemonic adversaries, with a picture of a Tzeentch Lord of Change leading a Squad of Fire Warriors. The article itself had tactics on Chaos Daemon/Tau force usage (I think), and the Daemonhunter's codex itself has a host of reasons why the Tau would and could turn to the dark Gods and their servants.
Another idea is that in their quest to understand the warp, they hire a cultist to summon a daemon, so that they can talk. The Daemon requires 'a body of a great leader' to inhabit during it's stay in the material plane. Who else but the colony's ethereal is up for the role? The Daemon possesses the Ethereal, talks a bucketful of lies to the Tau, misleading them, and makes a great show of it leaving the Ethereal. Of course, this is a trick, and the Ethereal is gone bar the daemon inside. The colony is slowly swayed towards the daemon's teachings - all because they believe they are following the greater good. Cue alien debauchery and murder, the silencing of local opposition, and a campaign against the nearest enemy. This enemy might even be another Tau colony, who are supposedly renegades who have left the Greater Good for their own selfish gain.
Cue amazing Tau Civil war!
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
I agree that Chaos Tau is pretty much an impossibility. Their allies yes, them no.
But renegade or successionist Tau is a whole differant story as there is already an example of it in fluff. To me if you want renegade Tau have it so your commander was a student of Farsight who followed along the same lines. They could be mercenaries of some sort, or you could have your commander be an actual captain of the Farsight Enclaves I mean Farsight can't be the only commander (if he's actually still alive).
As far as the whole Etherial thing goes I personally don't think that there is an Etherial with EVERY Tau fleet and cadre so while you could say the Etherial was killed you could also say they just didn't have one assigned to them since the first option is kind of cliched. Or heck you could go as far as saying that the Etherial has become dissalusioned for some reason, maybe he has fought alongside the Fire Caste for a long time and has witnessed something that changed his view. He still believes in the Greater Good but he believes that The Empire as a whole is not moving towards that goal as they should be and so he and those under him have seperated themselves so that they may pursue The Greater Good in the "correct" manner.
Just some ideas
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Post by: Melissia
Traitor Tau is certainly a possibility. Chaos Tau? Eeh... I doubt most of them are of much interest to Chaos. Though a heavily mutated Tau might be...
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Post by: nomsheep
I don't think tau could worship. khorne, nurgle or tzeentch as it involves way t o much mutation for it to pyshically be possible.
Melissia wrote:Traitor Tau is certainly a possibility. Chaos Tau? Eeh... I doubt most of them are of much interest to Chaos. Though a heavily mutated Tau might be...
they don't have to be, the chaos gods have to interest the tau.
As far as the whole Etherial thing goes I personally don't think that there is an Etherial with EVERY Tau fleet and cadre so while you could say the Etherial was killed you could also say they just didn't have one assigned to them since the first option is kind of cliched. Or heck you could go as far as saying that the Etherial has become dissalusioned for some reason, maybe he has fought alongside the Fire Caste for a long time and has witnessed something that changed his view. He still believes in the Greater Good but he believes that The Empire as a whole is not moving towards that goal as they should be and so he and those under him have seperated themselves so that they may pursue The Greater Good in the "correct" manner
which would then open him to manipulation.
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Post by: Melissia
Tau are mortal, and therefor they can be tempted. Tyranids resist temptation through the hive mind, Eldar do it through devotion to a single path, Grey Knights do it through their training, Sisters do it through faith, Orks do it through their gestalt psychic field, etc etc. The Tau appear to resist temptation through the Ethereals-- there's actually hints that Farsight might be leaning towards becoming Khornate.
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Post by: Retribution
Melissia wrote:The Tau appear to resist temptation through the Ethereals-- there's actually hints that Farsight might be leaning towards becoming Khornate.
Waaat?
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Retribution wrote:Melissia wrote:The Tau appear to resist temptation through the Ethereals-- there's actually hints that Farsight might be leaning towards becoming Khornate.
Waaat?
Farisght is warlike. Which suits the Fire Caste. Based on this logic every army general in existence is leaning towards worship of Khorne. While this may be true in some sense (the Gods cares not from where the blood flows so long as it does etc) I doubt very much that they are erecting shrines or any such nonsense.
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Post by: Retribution
Yea i know Farsight is warlike...being a big-bad general in 40k after-all, but i'd like to see any specific fluff that points toward khorne worship, in particular
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Post by: ShadowAngel159
Retribution wrote:Yea i know Farsight is warlike...being a big-bad general in 40k after-all, but i'd like to see any specific fluff that points toward khorne worship, in particular
This isn't proof, but it is an idea. What about the Dawn Blade he carries? There has been speculation that it could be a Daemon weapon. IF the Dawn Blade is a weapon of Chaos, and considering Farsight always uses it in battle, it could potentially be corrupting him to the worship of Khorne.
Just my idea
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Post by: Retribution
It can also be of Eldar or Necron origin, and even if it is a Daemon weapon it doesn't point us at khorne in particular
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Post by: Melissia
No, but think about him a bit more: he has an extremely aggressive and warlike nature, favoring close combat despite being of a race that does not excel in it.
This certainly sounds Khornate to me. It is not as if he is a human, Eldar, or Astartes, whom are all more balanced between close combat and assault. He is a Tau. WIth the exception of Farsight's little band, the Tau see close combat as extremely undesirable.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Melissia wrote:No, but think about him a bit more: he has an extremely aggressive and warlike nature, favoring close combat despite being of a race that does not excel in it.
This certainly sounds Khornate to me. It is not as if he is a human, Eldar, or Astartes, whom are all more balanced between close combat and assault. He is a Tau. WIth the exception of Farsight's little band, the Tau see close combat as extremely undesirable.
HE favours close combat becuase HE is actually damn good at it for a Tau Commander. It's not like he has all his firewarrior squads drop their rail guns and charge the enemy with bamboo sticks and harsh words. He doesn't display a mindless brutality in search of more and more opponents to kill, he demonstrates an aggressive approach to war. It doesn't make him a follower of Khorne.
EDIT: Oops, I don't think firewarriors come with Rail Guns. 
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Post by: Darth Bob
Emperors Faithful wrote:
EDIT: Oops, I don't think firewarriors come with Rail Guns.
If they did...I would be a very sad panda.
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Post by: Retribution
Farsight sees close combat as a necessary element of fighting from his experience with the orks, and yes, after acquiring the dawn-blade he's pretty good at CQC; it does kill no-matter what, right?  But, the Farsight Enclaves still fight like tau, you don't see any of them running around with chain-axes and chanting "blood for the blood god"
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
Not to be rude but I think you're grasping at straws in trying to reason your idea. Just because he is adept at close combat dosen't mean he worships Khorne, Aun'shi is (or was I think he's dead) a master of the Honour Blade. He, his bodyguard and a small group of Earth Caste miners held off an entire horde of Orks with Aun'shi fighting in the thick of it and he didn't have the benifit of a battlesuit and a mysterious blade. This means that for a Tau he's a cc god so to speak, dosen't mean he worships Khorne.
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Post by: 4M2A
Tau aren't neccessarily bad at CC. They aren't particulary strong but they can learn to use skill and specialised weapons. The reason they don't use CC is becuase they see it as brutal and savage. Farsight changed his style because he saw that sometimes CC may be the only option so it would help to have some combat training. Finding the Dawn Blade gave farsight the ability to become good at CC.
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Post by: nomsheep
Khorne worship mutates the body and farsight wouldn't be able to handle the mutations hence he would die.
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Post by: The Night Lord
lol this sounds like my army "the shadow tau"
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Post by: Melissia
It's not my theory dude, I'm just playing devil's advocate *facepalm*
As for what Farsight is, I'm not entirely sure myself. But given his attributes, I definitely think he, of all the Tau Empire, is the closest to any form of chaos worship given his separatist movement and the peculiar mindset he and his Tau have due to not being near an Ethereal for an extended period. That and the fact that he's supposedly lived for three centuries despite Tau being a remarkably short lived race...
The Inquisition reported that the planet that he obtained his Dawn Blade from was once ruled by Chaos Space Marines before being cleansed by the Scythes of the Emperor chapter, leading a bit of credence to the connection.
For now, GW obviously wants to keep the reason behind any of this a secret. Certainly, the Dawn Blade LOOKS like it could have been a CSM weapon on pure size alone. Farsight can't even hold it properly outside of his armor. I doubt a human could either.
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Post by: MikeV37
Is that a slaansh symbol on the dawn blade in Melissia'a pic?
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Post by: Melissia
I dont' think so. The upward pointing crescent is not an uncommon symbol in 40k. Necrons also use it on top of their symbol.
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Post by: Retribution
I've always thought the "Dawn Blade" looked more like a wraith-sword than anything else
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
And personally I believe that it is an Old One artifact. But none of this really helps the OP in creating his Tau now does it 
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Post by: ShadowAngel159
Melissia wrote:It's not my theory dude, I'm just playing devil's advocate *facepalm*
As for what Farsight is, I'm not entirely sure myself. But given his attributes, I definitely think he, of all the Tau Empire, is the closest to any form of chaos worship given his separatist movement and the peculiar mindset he and his Tau have due to not being near an Ethereal for an extended period. That and the fact that he's supposedly lived for three centuries despite Tau being a remarkably short lived race...
The Inquisition reported that the planet that he obtained his Dawn Blade from was once ruled by Chaos Space Marines before being cleansed by the Scythes of the Emperor chapter, leading a bit of credence to the connection.
For now, GW obviously wants to keep the reason behind any of this a secret. Certainly, the Dawn Blade LOOKS like it could have been a CSM weapon on pure size alone. Farsight can't even hold it properly outside of his armor. I doubt a human could either.
I sense the taint of Chaos in the Farsight Enclaves! Automatically Appended Next Post: But wait! I just read about Farsight and the Dawn Blade (thank you, almighty Lexicanum.com) and it said something about the blade being potentially related to the c'tan.
I think Farsight has a C'tan phase blade
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Post by: Lokirfellheart
As they are very non-Psychic, they have little if no temptations concerning chaos, and the Ethereals and the power of the greater good holds them back.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Wait, I think it was either the WH or DH codex that had scenarios for facing Tau. You could use those for inspiration perhaps?
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
It's DH. They have scenarios for EVERYTHING!!!
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Post by: Kroothawk
Emperors Faithful wrote:Wait, I think it was either the WH or DH codex that had scenarios for facing Tau. You could use those for inspiration perhaps?
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:It's DH. They have scenarios for EVERYTHING!!!
Almost, even Daemon Hunter have no scenario of corrupted Tau, because Inquisition knows those don't exist.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Do you mean turn to Chaos or turn away from the Greater Good?
Any Tau has the potential to turn away from the Greater Good, since it is the influence of the Ethereals which help keep him on the correct path.
The influence of Chaos seems to be much less, owing to the Tau's very strong focus in the Warp.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would seem reasonable that if Tau were susceptible to Chaotic influence, there would have been some signs of it by now, however the Medusa V campaign's revelation of Chaos seems to have come as a great surprise to them.
Thus, given that fluff has them not susceptible to Chaos, and also unaware of the existence of Chaos, it appears that they are relatively immune to Chaos.
Of course it could merely be that Chaos has bigger fish to fry.
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Post by: inquisitoredd142
I thought it would take too much energy for a daemon to take a Tau and even if they do what good would it be. Anyway Chaos' main target at the moment is the Emperor.
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
Kroothawk wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:Wait, I think it was either the WH or DH codex that had scenarios for facing Tau. You could use those for inspiration perhaps?
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:It's DH. They have scenarios for EVERYTHING!!!
Almost, even Daemon Hunter have no scenario of corrupted Tau, because Inquisition knows those don't exist.
Sorry but this is wrong. The Daemonhunters do in fact have scenarios for Tau, in fact they have 5 of them located on the top right corner of page 53. Although admitidly none of them actually involve the Tau turning to Chaos, instead they focus on the Taus ingorance in terms of the nature of Chaos.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
you don't need chaos to turn bad in the 40,000 universe, two ideas would be:
1. a group of tau explorers and fire caste escort find a near perfect planet, no humaniod life (or tyranid), they land, set up shop then it all changes slowely starting with the ethereals they are taken over by brain bugs/Goa'uld/other alien puppet masters
2. the same group find a cybernetic cube/artificial conscious that offers them the perfect way to achieve unity (ala borg), unifying them into a gestalt mind. one mind 10,000 bodies
edit: also a warp storm cutting them off, leading them to a pirate life would work
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Post by: Mr Nobody
Another argument against farsight turning to khorne is that he hasn't gone insane. He hasn't attacked any tau worlds, even the ones ruled by the ethereals, he just stopped talking to them and the ethereals have done the same. It also makes sense for farsight to favor close combat since he now has a giant sword.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
He also has a shield, which isn't in khorne's nature.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Kroothawk wrote:Emperors Faithful wrote:Wait, I think it was either the WH or DH codex that had scenarios for facing Tau. You could use those for inspiration perhaps?
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:It's DH. They have scenarios for EVERYTHING!!!
Almost, even Daemon Hunter have no scenario of corrupted Tau, because Inquisition knows those don't exist.
Sorry but this is wrong. The Daemonhunters do in fact have scenarios for Tau, in fact they have 5 of them located on the top right corner of page 53. Although admittedly none of them actually involve the Tau turning to Chaos, instead they focus on the Taus ignorance in terms of the nature of Chaos.
Which is kind of Kroothawk's point.
There's nothing for "possessed" Tau. There's only things like the Tau harboring a Daemonically possessed Psyker without knowing who/what he is, the Tau disrupting a great big ol' hexagrammic ward containing a Daemonic entity thinking it's some kind of primitive decoration used to keep the locals in line, etc.
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Post by: Kroothawk
"Codex Daemonhunters doesn't have any scenario of corrupted Tau."
"Wrong, the Codex has scenarios, just not of corrupted Tau." 
Yes Kanluwen, you got my point right.
Tau threads always feature warped logic like this, and they have a 2+ invulnerable save against official background facts
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Post by: BluntmanDC
@kroothawk:
So full of win.
So many people think that chaos is always the caise of rebels, lots of imperial worlds have rebelled just cos they don't like taxes, eldar have pirates (not dark eldar, they just like the freedom).
Some tau might just think they have a better way of serving the greater good.
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Post by: Kanluwen
BluntmanDC wrote:@kroothawk:
So full of win.
So many people think that chaos is always the cause of rebels, lots of imperial worlds have rebelled just cos they don't like taxes
Not true. Imperial worlds that have rebelled are something like 80% of the time can be traced to some form of Chaos taint. Vraks, for example, rebelled against the attempted assassination by a Vindicare of(what they believed) to be their favored Ecclesiarchy official.
In reality, the Vindicare was there to kill the official's righthand man, who was a secretive worshiper of Nurgle.
Eldar have pirates (not dark eldar, they just like the freedom).
Except the Corsairs aren't really "rebels", just like the Exodites aren't either.
They just don't live within the normal constraints of Eldar(both Dark or Craftworld) life.
Some Tau might just think they have a better way of serving the Greater Good.
Not really. Ethereals being present within every aspect of Tau society ensures that can't and won't happen.
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
Sorry I mis read Kroothawks post about the Tau vs DH I thought he was saying that their wern't any scenarios at all, my bad
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Post by: Necroman
Question: Is the Tau subservience factor genetic? And does that factor lead to their weak souls?
Like, if you were to isolate a bunch of Tau outside of the Etheral's control, would their souls grow brighter in the Warp?
MagicJuggler wrote:The simplest reason that Tau would change from their Utilitarian philosophy would be if an Ethereal-deprived Tau were to, on the ruins of a former Deathworld, find a still-preserved copy of Atlas Shrugged.
The bad writing would traumatize any species.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Considering that the Farsight Enclave hasn't been suddenly subjected to Daemonic incursions, no. Their souls don't "grow brighter" in the Warp.
And the subservience does seem to be genetic, as it is dominated by the Ethereals emitting a musk that the Tau are affected by.
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Post by: syanticraven
How about an Etheral is attacked and Possessed/controlled by a daemon of chaos?
Or do Etherals not have enough soul presence?
Since Tau are completely loyal to their ehterals they would listen and obey and slowly be corrupted.
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Post by: Necroman
That assumes an Ethereal could be corrupted in the first place.
Also, the Tau wouldn't be corrupted by following the Ethereal's orders, they would just be serving as pawns.
Kanluwen wrote:Considering that the Farsight Enclave hasn't been suddenly subjected to Daemonic incursions, no. Their souls don't "grow brighter" in the Warp.
And the subservience does seem to be genetic, as it is dominated by the Ethereals emitting a musk that the Tau are affected by.
Yeah, the "glow brighter" thing is just how I remember daemons seeing souls.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Since a Tau can't be corrupted due to some abnormality in their genetics, it's highly doubtful that Ethereals which are supposed to be pure, undiluted examples of the Tau genetics could be.
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Post by: syanticraven
Kanluwen wrote:Since a Tau can't be corrupted due to some abnormality in their genetics, it's highly doubtful that Ethereals which are supposed to be pure, undiluted examples of the Tau genetics could be.
That would be assuming that abnormality wasn't an evolution into their genetics. If the Ethereals are pure samples then they may not have that genetic code, depending on your definition of 'pure sample'. Also if Tau act loyal to a corrupted ethereal I would still consider them corrupted while under its leadership, sure when they sit down and are ordered to do nothing they wont pillage burn or torture, but all that corrupted Ethereal needs to do is click his fingers and they will. On a second note. It was just a thought. I wasn't stating a fact.
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Post by: Necroman
syanticraven wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Since a Tau can't be corrupted due to some abnormality in their genetics, it's highly doubtful that Ethereals which are supposed to be pure, undiluted examples of the Tau genetics could be.
That would be assuming that abnormality wasn't an evolution into their genetics. If the Ethereals are pure samples then they may not have that genetic code, depending on your definition of 'pure sample'.
Also if Tau act loyal to a corrupted ethereal I would still consider them corrupted while under its leadership, sure when they sit down and are ordered to do nothing they wont pillage burn or torture, but all that corrupted Ethereal needs to do is click his fingers and they will.
Chaos "corruption" requires actual physical or mental demonic influence on the target.
Of course, there's ****ing corrupted tanks and titans, so what do I know...
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Post by: Kanluwen
To be fair, Titans and Tanks do have a "soul" that can be daemonically possessed.
I mean, after all there's Daemons that infest technological constructs so I guess it's feasibly possible if there's enough computer processing equipment in Crisis Suits or Drones that they could be possessed.
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Post by: syanticraven
Kanluwen wrote:To be fair, Titans and Tanks do have a "soul" that can be demoniacally possessed.
I mean, after all there's Daemons that infest technological constructs so I guess it's feasibly possible if there's enough computer processing equipment in Crisis Suits or Drones that they could be possessed.
That might be something specific to the Machine spirit though. But possibly.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
Kanluwen wrote:BluntmanDC wrote:@kroothawk:
So full of win.
So many people think that chaos is always the cause of rebels, lots of imperial worlds have rebelled just cos they don't like taxes
Not true. Imperial worlds that have rebelled are something like 80% of the time can be traced to some form of Chaos taint. Vraks, for example, rebelled against the attempted assassination by a Vindicare of(what they believed) to be their favored Ecclesiarchy official.
In reality, the Vindicare was there to kill the official's righthand man, who was a secretive worshiper of Nurgle.
Eldar have pirates (not dark eldar, they just like the freedom).
Except the Corsairs aren't really "rebels", just like the Exodites aren't either.
They just don't live within the normal constraints of Eldar(both Dark or Craftworld) life.
Some Tau might just think they have a better way of serving the Greater Good.
Not really. Ethereals being present within every aspect of Tau society ensures that can't and won't happen.
Read what i actually said, i was saying that chaos is not always the cause and thanks to your statistic you have proved me right  , corsairs represent a rebellion against the norms of craftworld live, although they still will help their craftworld brethren.
and the grand finale to your whole argument.......oh wait we have the farsight enclave to back up my point
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Post by: danp164
I always hated the way everyone automatically assumes Khorne=Mass Murdering Maniac. Now its true some of the better known Khorne devoted charecters ARE of the aforementioned catagorey, lets be clear that its a sliding scale that doesnt go from "Hmm who'se this Khorne bloke" Straight to "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD ARRRGGHHH!!!"
Many of those who turned insane brutal beserkers simply started off as strong warriors with a sense of martial pride. The point is if you knew you were slipping into chaos worship, you wouldnt slip, its an insidious slide. Theres nothing to say that Farsight's blade IS a demon weapon Slowly corrupting him into khornate worship HOWEVER he isnt quite at the homicidal maniac end of the slide.
Let me put it to you, if a Tau sniper team takes considerable pride in his aim and begins to boast he is the best shot in the entire empire, as his fame and renown grows, as does his ego, could he not be slipping to slannesh worship simply by seeking to perfect his skills?
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
In relation to the idea that Battlesuits and the like could be possesed in the same way as titans and tanks and such. I believe (just my opinion) that the machines of the Imperium do have spirits but as with all creatures of the warp these spirits exist because the people of the Imperium and Chaos believe they exist which in turn makes them a reality (I like to call this the Freddy Kruger Affect).
The Tau on the other hand don't believe in such things, they don't have an actual religion just a single cause that has unified the race so their emotions and such don't form into "living" beings within the warp. So for the Imperium and Chaos machine spirits do exist and can be corrupted because they believe that the exist and so forth. The Tau don't believe such things and so they don't face the same problem which is why you don't see daemonicly possesed Ork or Eldar/Dark Eldar vehicles because they don't believe in machine spirits. Unless of course the Orks have looted a posseses vehicle or you consider a Wraith Lord and Wraithguard to be "machine spirits" which technicly they aren't as machine spirits are actually the soul of the machine while Eldar ghost constructs are simply machines piloted by a soul of a dead warrior.
Also I believe that the Ethereals are a survival response of the Tau. We already know that the Tau evolved relativly quickly which allowed the members of the species to better survive their chosen environments on T'au. We also know that the Tau faced a period of extinction due to their own inability to cooperate, so I believe that the Ethereals are an evolutionary response to that threat which has allowed the race to survive and prosper. Now some people see the Ethereals abilities as a form of mind controle, I don't think it works that way. I believe that the pharamones released by the Ethereals act as a sort of gentile persuasion. When combined with the psychological conditioning that every Tau recieves to obey the saviors of their race it can seem like it's mind controle but is just a very strong imperative to do as they are told.
Now the relevance that this has to renegade Tau (notice I do not say chaos Tau because Tau cannot be corrupted by Chaos) is that should an Ethereal be removed then the Tau would be left without their guidance. As with most leaders I believe that the Ethereals guidance contains truths that are hidden from the Tau in general for their own protection and betterment (as well as actions taken for the betterment of alien races within the Empire even if they don't want it). Now should a Tau of authority (O'shovah) become privy to these omited truths they may become aware of the horrors that exist in the universe and learn that not everything is as one sided as the Ethereals say.
I believe that O'shovah simply woke up and realised that in the 40k universe it is pretty much every race for itself and that the Tau are going about it the wrong way (or so he believes) and so
he has seperated himself from the main Tau Empire in order to pursue what he and his followers see as the right course of action. Should other commanders have the same experience they may very well leave the Tau Empire and join O'shovah or they may even create their own little niche in the galaxy. I believe this is the bases of having a renegade Tau army.
Ok I'm done now
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Post by: Kanluwen
BluntmanDC wrote:
Read what i actually said, i was saying that chaos is not always the cause and thanks to your statistic you have proved me right
Not really, because even things that start out with no real "Chaos" leaning end up being revealed, at their core, to have some relationship that can lead to the insurgency/rebellions being tied to the Ruinous Powers.
Corsairs represent a rebellion against the norms of Craftworld life, although they still will help their Craftworld brethren.
They'll also help their Dark Eldar cousins, what's your point?
and the grand finale to your whole argument.......oh wait we have the Farsight Enclave to back up my point
And just like I stated, the Ethereals have gone out of their way since the founding of the Farsight Enclave(which was, y'know...founded when the single Ethereal, who was accompanying an expeditionary force went outside of the inner Tau colonies, was killed. They've since made it a point so that there's dozens of Ethereals traveling alongside of Fire Caste forces) to make sure it can't happen again.
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
Just curious but where does it say in fluff that Tau fleets are acompanied by multiple Ethereals following the inciden with O'shovah? I've never come across that?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Then read harder, because it's in there.
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
Kanluwen wrote:Then read harder, because it's in there.
Umm ok? a simple page number would have worked because I was genuinly curious. Anyone else care to actually answer my question?
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Post by: Thelaugher
maybe parts of the tau forces...like the mercenaries they hire...but probably not the main castes.
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Post by: Che-Vito
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Post by: Sanctjud
^ditto.
I personally run a small Nurgle Tau army 750-1000 points... I do it for conversions and looks, not really for fluff.
As for fluff, the codex doesn't say 'impossible'...hinting towards unlikely, but the possibility is there, even if it's 0.000000000000000000000001%, I'm there . I generally just assume the wonderful odor of Grandfather Nurgle has over taken the pheramones of the Ethearals .
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Post by: BluntmanDC
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Then read harder, because it's in there.
Umm ok? a simple page number would have worked because I was genuinly curious. Anyone else care to actually answer my question?
@kanluwen
look if you don't actually have any references to back up your points say so. Everyone else is having a discussion, while you are the shouty guy going 'i'm right, you know who's right? ME'
@warboss imbad ironskull
i can't find it in any of my books, but i think you ideas why they would rebel is very believable
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Post by: Kanluwen
BluntmanDC wrote:Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Kanluwen wrote:Then read harder, because it's in there.
Umm ok? a simple page number would have worked because I was genuinly curious. Anyone else care to actually answer my question?
@kanluwen
look if you don't actually have any references to back up your points say so. Everyone else is having a discussion, while you are the shouty guy going 'i'm right, you know who's right? ME'
Read the Tau codex, the Taros Campaign book, Medusa campaign material, et all.
There's no real specific page numbers because it's spread all over the bloody place.
@warboss imbad ironskull
i can't find it in any of my books, but I think your ideas why they would rebel is very believable
O'shovah separated himself from the Tau Empire proper not because of any realization that "it's every race for themselves".
But because of the fact that he wanted to slaughter the Orks in the sector of space where he founded the Farsight Enclaves.
There's no real xenophobia or racial superiority with O'shovah. The only reason he doesn't have Kroot or Vespid or Gue'vasa?
The fact that he's not being regularly supplied by the Tau Empire. He has no mandate to recruit those auxiliaries, no way to support them or manage them either. It's the same reason why there was a 0-1 restriction on the "new" tech like Stealth Suits, Hammerheads, Pathfinders, Piranhas, etc in a Farsight army.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
Kanluwen wrote:Read the Tau codex, the Taros Campaign book, Medusa campaign material, et all.
There's no real specific page numbers because it's spread all over the bloody place.
go on just one example, pretty please
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Post by: Librius Machina
What if a Chaos Daemon posed as a Tau Commander and led them to chaos that way. They didn't realise they were following chaos, they were just following their commander's orders. Maybe the Tau could go the way of the Death Guard as well. Pray to Nurgle to stop the pain of Nurgles rot and serve him in return.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
How would the deamon be able to pose as the commanded? it would require alot of energy to exist for the period of time required even to start its plan.
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Post by: Che-Vito
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
I think the Tau would notice just as well. Yes Tau are conditioned to obey the commands of an Ethereal but even they would notice something is wrong when the Ethereal orders them to cut the heads off the dead and put them in a pile or to do unspeakables to the corpses etc. Plus the Ethereals themselves that usually travel with Tau fleets answer to a higher Ethereal council so even if their subordinates woulden't notice their superiors would. And again that's assuming that an Ethereal could even be possesed which would take a ritual summoning and considering how well protected Ethereals are I doubt one could be captured. I only know of 2 examples of it happening, 1 was by the Ordos Xenos and the other was in the Fire Warrior book and that Ethereal resisted temptation even through torture and given how faint a Taus presence is in the Warp I doubt it could happen.
Also someone brought up the idea of Nurgles rot affecting the Tau and they prey to him for salvation. Tau probably can be affected by Nurgles Rot as it's a disease and even the Tyranids can be infected with it but the whole praying thing dosen't fly. In order to pray to a god you have to believe that they exist, the Tau are a secular society. They believe in a cause not in gods, so if they where affected by Nurgles Rot they would probably try and develop a cure for it instead of praying to a god that they don't believe (or know) exists. And it can't really be said that their allies would either because 1 it hasen't been stated if the Vespid have a religion and in my experience of sci-fi inscetoid aliens they don't. And 2 the Kroot worship their ancestors not gods, and they activly avoid eating worshipers of chaos to avoid corruption. I doubt that they would worship one of it's gods if they so openly avoid being tainted by it physically, though working for that gods agents is an entirely differant matter. Chances are the other Kroot would cull those who where infected, possesed or who had begun worshiping chaos.
Unless there is a major revision in Tau fluff the Tau just aren't going to join chaos.
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Post by: Librius Machina
If the Tau did try to research a cure they would soon learn that it is incurable. I also think that if one Tau like Farsight can think "Hmm, screw the greater good" than any other Tau could look past the secular nature of Tau society. If a Firewarrior spends a lot of time fighting Chaos forces and sees Daemons, Sorcerors and Magic they might start to doubt what they've been taught.
The whole Nurgle thing could happen like this: Firewarriors fighting against Chaos catch one of Nurgles plagues. They are in horrible pain and nothing the Tau Empire can do with help them. They have seen Plague Marines fighting with these horrible illnesses without much difficulty. In fact, it seems to help rather than hinder them. They are so maddened by pain that they decide to join up with whatever is stopping the marines from feeling as bad as them. You now have Nurgle Tau.
It might not be the best explanation but its one way you could have reasonably fluffy Chaos Tau.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
How would they initiate the worship though, seeing as they have no history of worship or knowledge of the chaos gods and with no presence in the warp nurgle or one of his deamons couldn't communicate directly with them to make a 'deal'. the only way would be to actively seek out the plague marines who would most likely kill within torpedo range or use as slaves/toys
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Post by: Librius Machina
I guess they could have learnt about it from Cultist bases they have raided. They don't believe so wouldn't understand the threat of Chaos' literature and might read it.
I suppose thats the major reason that Chaos Tau don't work. You just end up clutching at straws to justify them. The best way would be just to not think about it to much.
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
@Librius Machina
If they found a cure or not isn't the point. The Tau are logical and scientific, that means that they would search for a logical and scientific solution instead of completly changing who they are in the drop of a hat and start worshiping some god that they don't believe exists in the first place.
As far as your scenario about how Tau would come to serve Nurgle there is a differance between being bad but still plausible and being so bad there is no way. No offence but your scenario is the later. 1st of all infected Tau woulden't still be fighting on the front lines, they would be in a medical center or quarentine so how would they be able to go searching for those marines? 2 they probably woulden't even be able to move let alone seek out Nurgle Marines that represent the exact opposite of everything the Tau believe in so besides having to suddenly develop a belief in a god that normal Fire Warriors probably know nothing about they would also have to be completly dissillussioned about the Greater Good ergo the absence of Ethereals. And given the Tau nature they would still believe their deaths where for the Greater Good. And using Farsight as an example won't work either, he and his faction have gone renegade they don't worship chaos sothat tells you that even Tau who are outside of the Empire proper still woulden't turn to chaos.
I repeat Tau will not turn to chaos
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Post by: nomsheep
@ ironskull: just because they haven't yet doesn't mean they can't. we just can't find a logical and decent reason that stands up to scrutiny.
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Post by: Librius Machina
If they found a cure or not isn't the point. The Tau are logical and scientific, that means that they would search for a logical and scientific solution instead of completly changing who they are in the drop of a hat and start worshiping some god that they don't believe exists in the first place.
and when people have no scientific answer they generally turn to religion. Just look at how many people turn to god when they have an illness that can't be cured. Besides, look at the Imperium. The Imperial Truth taught that there were no gods or anything supernatural. However, once people were shown that there were actually gods and daemons, they soon gave up on that. The Tau's belief is rather more deep seated due to the Ethereal's control over them, but if they were to be away from the Ethereals for a while (i.e. they had been seperated from the rest of their sept) they might start to see otherwise.
using Farsight as an example won't work either, he and his faction have gone renegade they don't worship chaos sothat tells you that even Tau who are outside of the Empire proper still woulden't turn to chaos.
All I meant by that was that Farsight proves that Tau can change their minds about things and can make their own decisions. Just because Farsight didn't choose to leave the Empire for Chaos doesn't mean that others wouldn't.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
Librius Machina wrote:and when people have no scientific answer they generally turn to religion. Just look at how many people turn to god when they have an illness that can't be cured. Besides, look at the Imperium. The Imperial Truth taught that there were no gods or anything supernatural. However, once people were shown that there were actually gods and daemons, they soon gave up on that. The Tau's belief is rather more deep seated due to the Ethereal's control over them, but if they were to be away from the Ethereals for a while (i.e. they had been seperated from the rest of their sept) they might start to see otherwise.
the one problem with this is that the gods are powered/fueled/created/born from the psychically active races, so the act of religion is 'natural' in those races while unnatural in the tau, this means they do not have the 'all is  so better start praying default' ( IMO real world examples shouldn't be used seeing as the warp doesn't exist here)
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Post by: syanticraven
BluntmanDC wrote:Librius Machina wrote:and when people have no scientific answer they generally turn to religion. Just look at how many people turn to god when they have an illness that can't be cured. Besides, look at the Imperium. The Imperial Truth taught that there were no gods or anything supernatural. However, once people were shown that there were actually gods and daemons, they soon gave up on that. The Tau's belief is rather more deep seated due to the Ethereal's control over them, but if they were to be away from the Ethereals for a while (i.e. they had been seperated from the rest of their sept) they might start to see otherwise.
the one problem with this is that the gods are powered/fueled/created/born from the psychically active races, so the act of religion is 'natural' in those races while unnatural in the tau, this means they do not have the 'all is so better start praying default' ( IMO real world examples shouldn't be used seeing as the warp doesn't exist here)
And that scientifically speaking god(s) has not been proved or disproved (no matter what your view) were as in the 40k world they do exist.
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
Librius Machina wrote:If they found a cure or not isn't the point. The Tau are logical and scientific, that means that they would search for a logical and scientific solution instead of completly changing who they are in the drop of a hat and start worshiping some god that they don't believe exists in the first place.
and when people have no scientific answer they generally turn to religion. Just look at how many people turn to god when they have an illness that can't be cured. Besides, look at the Imperium. The Imperial Truth taught that there were no gods or anything supernatural. However, once people were shown that there were actually gods and daemons, they soon gave up on that. The Tau's belief is rather more deep seated due to the Ethereal's control over them, but if they were to be away from the Ethereals for a while (i.e. they had been seperated from the rest of their sept) they might start to see otherwise.
In this statement you 1 compare Tau to people, now if you're using "people" in terms of real world people then that comparison is faulty at best because real world ideals, physics and beliefs do not translate into 40k and so have no place IMHO. If you're refering to "people" in terms of 40k humans then that means you are comparing 2 entirely differant species, Tau reactions cannot be compared to those of humans no more then you could compare Eldar emotions to those of a Ork.
Then you use the Imperium as an example. Again you are comparing 2 entirely differant species with differant histories and differant traditions. As far as we know the Tau have NEVER worshiped any kind of god nor have they believed in spirits or such creatures. Humanity in 40k always has believed in such things, yes the Emperor tried to make the Imperium a secular society but it never happened, not completly. Now the Imperium had a good reason to return to being a religious society, the Horus Heresy gave them reason to what with daemons and chaos gods and magic and such.
So lets say that the Tau had something similar happen. Lets say that when O'shava seperated himself from the Tau half the Empire went with him and he started working with chaos forces (note I did not say for or under, I said with). Now the Tau Empire isn't going to take kindly to that so they are going to try and get the Farsight renegades back or kill them and in these battles they see them fighting alonside summoned daemons and such. Are they going to see them as daemons and start worshiping some god like the Imperium did? No because as the fluff has shown so far the Tau do not believe in spiritual creatures such as daemons, they see them as just another type of being. Since they do not associate them with a supernatural element like the Imperium does thanks to it's history of supersticion they will not start praying to gods because they have no need to they never have because they don't believe they exist.
They may believe that they are simply powerfull creatures that have developed amazing abilities. But they do not believe that they are gods because they don't believe gods exist. If they do; ot believe that gods exist then they won't start praying to them because there is no one to pray to in their minds. So using the Imperium (an organisation made up of humans with a LONG LONG history of spiritual beliefs even before the Emperor) as an example of why the Tau (a non human race with no known religion nor any mentioning of ever having believed in gods or spirits) could do the same thing isn't going to work.
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Post by: syanticraven
This has gotten all to serious for a fluff army.
Your tau where out walking the dog near the eye of terror looking for a lost fleet in planet X (following a mayday call) when all of a sudden a warp storm appeared and they started hearing odd noises through their coms - a mysterious harsh but calming noise, it is unknown what this might of been or what caused it but the Tau that where within the planet X effected by this storm have now been sighted 'aligning' with the forces of chaos.
There you god damn go. Use completely ambiguous text to fluff it up how you like, just never state specifics when it comes to 'how'.
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Post by: Kroothawk
The Codex Daemonhunters doesn't have any scenario of corrupted Tau, because the Imperial specialists (and GW designers) know Tau can't be corrupted.
The novel "Firewarrior" shows a daemon trying to corrupt a Firewarrior. He only sees in one in a million the slightest chance of success (he doesn't event try on the captured ethereal), but even this highly emotional Firewarrior after days of attacks and corruption attempts doesn't fall to Chaos. Another example of GW saying NO.
Xenology even hints at the fact that Eldar created ethereals to make a race immune to Chaos.
And you will find not a single example of a corrupted Tau in the official background including novels.
Is there any other way that GW can say NO to corrupted Tau? I guess not.
BTW Tau have never been close to the Eye of Terror, so the above attempt of justification is another failed attempt.
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Post by: syanticraven
Kroothawk wrote:The Codex Daemonhunters doesn't have any scenario of corrupted Tau, because the Imperial specialists (and GW designers) know Tau can't be corrupted.
The novel "Firewarrior" shows a daemon trying to corrupt a Firewarrior. He only sees in one in a million the slightest chance of success (he doesn't event try on the captured ethereal), but even this highly emotional Firewarrior after days of attacks and corruption attempts doesn't fall to Chaos. Another example of GW saying NO.
Xenology even hints at the fact that Eldar created ethereals to make a race immune to Chaos.
And you will find not a single example of a corrupted Tau in the official background including novels.
Is there any other way that GW can say NO to corrupted Tau? I guess not.
BTW Tau have never been close to the Eye of Terror, so the above attempt of justification is another failed attempt.
Just because they have never been there in fluff that you read does not mean it is impossible for them to go there in search of a missing fleet of theirs. How that fleet got there is not mentioned and neither is why. It could be many plausible reasons. ALSO to boot, the above attempt was a joke, you did not mention that tau don't take their dogs a walk in space. Seriously have a bit of tact.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
syanticraven wrote:Kroothawk wrote:The Codex Daemonhunters doesn't have any scenario of corrupted Tau, because the Imperial specialists (and GW designers) know Tau can't be corrupted.
The novel "Firewarrior" shows a daemon trying to corrupt a Firewarrior. He only sees in one in a million the slightest chance of success (he doesn't event try on the captured ethereal), but even this highly emotional Firewarrior after days of attacks and corruption attempts doesn't fall to Chaos. Another example of GW saying NO.
Xenology even hints at the fact that Eldar created ethereals to make a race immune to Chaos.
And you will find not a single example of a corrupted Tau in the official background including novels.
Is there any other way that GW can say NO to corrupted Tau? I guess not.
BTW Tau have never been close to the Eye of Terror, so the above attempt of justification is another failed attempt.
Just because they have never been there in fluff that you read does not mean it is impossible for them to go there in search of a missing fleet of theirs. How that fleet got there is not mentioned and neither is why. It could be many plausible reasons. ALSO to boot, the above attempt was a joke, you did not mention that tau don't take their dogs a walk in space.
Seriously have a bit of tact.
should he have started with 'sorry but you a wrong', 40k background as the main is about descussing fluff, so if you want to ignore that whats really the point, and now lets try some tact here, isn't a joke supposed to be funny?
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Post by: Kroothawk
syanticraven wrote:Just because they have never been there in fluff that you read does not mean it is impossible for them to go there in search of a missing fleet of theirs. How that fleet got there is not mentioned and neither is why. It could be many plausible reasons.
Actually no, as the fluff is very explicit that the Tau are limited to the Eastern Fringe "("big fish in a small pond") because they have no access to a real warp drive. But as you obviously haven't read Tau background, you couldn't know that.
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Post by: syanticraven
BluntmanDC wrote:syanticraven wrote:Kroothawk wrote:The Codex Daemonhunters doesn't have any scenario of corrupted Tau, because the Imperial specialists (and GW designers) know Tau can't be corrupted.
The novel "Firewarrior" shows a daemon trying to corrupt a Firewarrior. He only sees in one in a million the slightest chance of success (he doesn't event try on the captured ethereal), but even this highly emotional Firewarrior after days of attacks and corruption attempts doesn't fall to Chaos. Another example of GW saying NO.
Xenology even hints at the fact that Eldar created ethereals to make a race immune to Chaos.
And you will find not a single example of a corrupted Tau in the official background including novels.
Is there any other way that GW can say NO to corrupted Tau? I guess not.
BTW Tau have never been close to the Eye of Terror, so the above attempt of justification is another failed attempt.
Just because they have never been there in fluff that you read does not mean it is impossible for them to go there in search of a missing fleet of theirs. How that fleet got there is not mentioned and neither is why. It could be many plausible reasons. ALSO to boot, the above attempt was a joke, you did not mention that tau don't take their dogs a walk in space. Seriously have a bit of tact.
should he have started with 'sorry but you a wrong', 40k background as the main is about descussing fluff, so if you want to ignore that whats really the point, and now lets try some tact here, isn't a joke supposed to be funny?
I am sure a tau taking a kroot dog for a walk would be funny in someone's mind -humour is different for everyone. Also the fluff did not say "Tau have not and will never go to the eye of terror" it just said they have not been there, so if a player wants to make an tau excursion to there so recent that it has not been documented then so be it, there is no fluff to stop them. Therefore referring to that specific fluff in my above case has no relativity and he should of though about the possibility first not just stamp his feet. Just because something is not documented in a book does not mean it did not happen -unless said book/source specifically said so or hinted to such. You could also say that they have been but it had not been documented for the greater good, maybe they got lost and then disappeared from tau and no one knew where they went, maybe they got caught in a warp storm and it threw them towards the eye of terror, or even that it was a warp storm that was not in the eye of terror (reason they where not noticed before was due to warp storms blocking out the area). But as my point is about people being too serious in this thread I am not going to label every possibility or the use of ambiguous phrases to pass it off. Just say they are corrupted just because. Maybe just say they are insane.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
syanticraven wrote:Also the fluff did not say "Tau have not and will never go to the eye of terror"
yes but how would a fleet get through the whole of the galaxy, the tau empire is on the other side of the galaxy to the eye of terror, a fleet would be destroyed before it got anywhere near the segmentum solar let alone the eye.
http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html
have you noticed you are the only one thinking this, maybe everyone on this thread wants to have this 'serious' discussion
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Post by: Miraclefish
Chaos have no interest in the Tau.
The Tau have no interest in Chaos.
Nuff said.
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Post by: syanticraven
BluntmanDC wrote:syanticraven wrote:Also the fluff did not say "Tau have not and will never go to the eye of terror"
yes but how would a fleet get through the whole of the galaxy, the tau empire is on the other side of the galaxy to the eye of terror, a fleet would be destroyed before it got anywhere near the segmentum solar let alone the eye.
http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html
have you noticed you are the only one thinking this, maybe everyone on this thread wants to have this 'serious' discussion
The 'How' is what the creator of this gets to make up, its part of the fun.
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Post by: Aun'shi
asimo77 wrote:I'm sure a Tzeentchian daemon would be able to fool some tau or trick them sufficiently to do whatever they want possibly even abandon the greater good or whatever. As far as I know you don't have to be possessed for Tzeentch and friends to manipulate you. Then there's always the Deciever and even eldar possibly (it's even hinted in Xenology that they created the ethereals). Plus the whole being fooled thing fits with the tau being naive upstarts.
I wouldn't think so, if such an important decision, such as following chaos, the ethereals would become invovled and would immediately destroy any hope Tzeentch had of tainting them, as it would destroy the commanding power of the ethereals.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
syanticraven wrote:The 'How' is what the creator of this gets to make up, its part of the fun.
But seeing as there is NO possible way for it to happen in the fluff, its a lack of care for the world that has been created, if you want a chaos tau army say 'i know its non-fluff but this is what i want' but don't get in a huff when people say its impossible in the 40k universe, they would still play you, but it has no background in the universe.
This is much like the dreaded female space marines, people would still play against your converted army but don't try to justify a completely un-fluff army.
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Post by: syanticraven
BluntmanDC wrote:syanticraven wrote:The 'How' is what the creator of this gets to make up, its part of the fun.
But seeing as there is NO possible way for it to happen in the fluff, its a lack of care for the world that has been created, if you want a chaos tau army say 'i know its non-fluff but this is what i want' but don't get in a huff when people say its impossible in the 40k universe, they would still play you, but it has no background in the universe. This is much like the dreaded female space marines, people would still play against your converted army but don't try to justify a completely un-fluff army.
Saying there is no possible way is just a lack of imagination. Some Iyanden Eldar may have tricked them into an alliance and using Eldar webways transported them to X area where they where ambushed allowing the trapped eldar troops to escape, maybe the accidentally activated a Old One Relic that linked to something on The Thousand Sons home plant and teleported them there eliminating the planet they where on . From here on 'scary gak' happened or a Tzeentch prince parades as a ethereal commanding them or some other bs way to make up some way. I mean the possibility of it is within the creators mind, they just need to be careful, maybe something warped there DNA to make them more susceptible or that one FW commander had a greater soul presence for some reason. Maybe X done Y and Z was caused.
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Post by: BluntmanDC
syanticraven wrote:BluntmanDC wrote:syanticraven wrote:The 'How' is what the creator of this gets to make up, its part of the fun.
But seeing as there is NO possible way for it to happen in the fluff, its a lack of care for the world that has been created, if you want a chaos tau army say 'i know its non-fluff but this is what i want' but don't get in a huff when people say its impossible in the 40k universe, they would still play you, but it has no background in the universe.
This is much like the dreaded female space marines, people would still play against your converted army but don't try to justify a completely un-fluff army.
Saying there is no possible way is just a lack of imagination. Some Iyanden Eldar may have tricked them into an alliance and using Eldar webways transported them to X area where they where ambushed allowing the trapped eldar troops to escape, maybe the accidentally activated a Old One Relic that linked to something on The Thousand Sons home plant and teleported them there eliminating the planet they where on . From here on 'scary gak' happened or a Tzeentch prince parades as a ethereal commanding them or some other bs way to make up some way.
I mean the possibility of it is within the creators mind, they just need to be careful, maybe something warped there DNA to make them more susceptible or that one FW commander had a greater soul presence for some reason.
Maybe X done Y and Z was caused.
There is a big difference between a lack of imagination and caring about the establish history and geography of the 40k universe, the Eldar would not allow the tau to use a webway portal, relics are defended, and if they landed on the thousands sons home world the would have travelled back in time a few millenia (unless you are taking about magnus' deamon world, a world the 13th company hasn't been able to find in millenia or the fact that upon arrival the thousands sons and the multitude of deamons would rip them apart, the majority of deamons don't go for the whole chess game classic image of the deamon, they want to kill/rip apart/eat mortals) oh see i used my imagination, i'll be damned. writting a sequence of non linked words doesn't make you an imaginative poet it makes you a .
In a debate about official background, i will reiterate, there is no historical, canon, written, logical way for a tau to be turned to chaos
and you are not allowed to swear on dakka
'people would still play against your converted army but don't try to justify a completely un-fluff army.'
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Post by: syanticraven
Well it is not my army, I am happy with the greater good.
But I don't see anywhere that notes that Tau are completely immune to chaos and will forever be. So it is up to the writer of fluff army to decide what changes that.
Who knows, maybe a tau diplomat had a baby with a bar maid and it all went downhill.
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Post by: ChocolatePretzel
Its chaos though. reasoning and logic are the last things to be able to be used explaining it. every viable excuse given on why chaos tau cant exist is invalid because of fathoming chaos' reasoning is impossible
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Post by: Big Tim
I always thought there might be some long lost Necron/Tau connection. My reasoning follows:
I think a Necron Warrior head looks something like a Tau skull would.
I think O'Shovah's Dawn Blade looks very Necronesque and he did find it on a long abandoned world.
And they have great tech, just like the Crons.
If the Tau have a darker half in the 40K universe, I think it's the Necrons.
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
Big Tim wrote:I always thought there might be some long lost Necron/Tau connection. My reasoning follows:
I think a Necron Warrior head looks something like a Tau skull would.
I think O'Shovah's Dawn Blade looks very Necronesque and he did find it on a long abandoned world.
And they have great tech, just like the Crons.
If the Tau have a darker half in the 40K universe, I think it's the Necrons.
I don't think so.
The Necrontyr have been effectivly "dead" for countless millenia, so while the machines that their minds where transfered to may look like the Necrontyr the chances of a race that exists millions of years later having the same skeletal structur are coincidental at best.
If O'shovahs sword is a Necron weapon that dosen't mean there is necissarily a connection between them. The Imperium uses C'tan Phase Blades it dosen't mean there is a connection (although that's a bad example because of the whole void dragon thing on Mars).
Great tech isn't really a sign either. Alot of races in the 40k universe have great tech, it's just that the Tau technology advances faster then that used by other races. And when you think about it Necron and Tau technology aren't even close to being the same.
Plus what would be the point of them being connected? why would a race that harvests the souls of others to feed their masters and a race that wants the unity of all for the greater good have anything in common? Their like exact opposites, if anything the Tau are the 40k answer to the Necrons. The one race that could possibly stand against them.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
ChocolatePretzel wrote:Its chaos though. reasoning and logic are the last things to be able to be used explaining it. every viable excuse given on why chaos tau cant exist is invalid because of fathoming chaos' reasoning is impossible
By the same reasoning, why not have Chaos Orks, Chaos Tyranids, Chaos Necrons, Chaos Loyalist Space Marines, Loyalist Chaos Space Marines? Any restriction is merely a lack of imagination.
Why not make everything a pile of grey goo? That is the ultimate Chaos.
Restrictions are how the game is given interest and character. Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW when you look at them, the Chaotic powers obey quite strong logical rules and little imagination in the way they operate.
There are four of them (five if you include Malal). They are generated by specific types of "negative" emotions. They have defined special powers and signs, and areas of responsibility.
Chaos Daemons manifest in predictable ways. They can be restrained or destroyed by rules and physical devices.
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Post by: Miraclefish
Kilkrazy, I agree with your post and wish to subscribe to your newsletter!
Nail. Head.
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Post by: Lexx
Couldn't have said it better myself Killkrazy.
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Post by: ChocolatePretzel
thats the point i was trying to make: chaos orks and nids can exist as the dh codex has pics of chaos orks and reasonings for dh to fight other races. necrons cant be possessed by chaos as they are immortal ancient dead beings. as for chaos loyalist marines? and loyalist chaos marines? those also exist(to an extent) the soul drinkers: a bunch of loyalist marines who get tainted by chaos but they view themselves as still loyal to the emperor and fight for him still. the Chaos Gods do, yes, obviously represent their realms: killing, plague, change, and pleasure, etc., but its more complex than that. they have GOD titles because they operate on a level mortals cant comprehend. tau are mortal and can fall just as every mighty being can. however they are tough being the soul crabs(lots of work, not alot of meat) so they wont probably be first draft picks. also thnx for grey goo idea. srsly, i was wondering on how to make a bunch of cheap spawn.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Kilkrazy wrote:ChocolatePretzel wrote:Its chaos though. reasoning and logic are the last things to be able to be used explaining it. every viable excuse given on why chaos tau cant exist is invalid because of fathoming chaos' reasoning is impossible
By the same reasoning, why not have Chaos Orks, Chaos Tyranids, Chaos Necrons, Chaos Loyalist Space Marines, Loyalist Chaos Space Marines? Any restriction is merely a lack of imagination.
Should I give you links to threads suggesting or even modelling each of those?
And remember: Chaos is so strong, it can even warp the logic in posts
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Post by: BluntmanDC
ChocolatePretzel wrote:thats the point i was trying to make: chaos orks and nids can exist as the dh codex has pics of chaos orks and reasonings for dh to fight other races. necrons cant be possessed by chaos as they are immortal ancient dead beings. as for chaos loyalist marines? and loyalist chaos marines? those also exist(to an extent) the soul drinkers: a bunch of loyalist marines who get tainted by chaos but they view themselves as still loyal to the emperor and fight for him still. the Chaos Gods do, yes, obviously represent their realms: killing, plague, change, and pleasure, etc., but its more complex than that. they have GOD titles because they operate on a level mortals cant comprehend. tau are mortal and can fall just as every mighty being can. however they are tough being the soul crabs(lots of work, not alot of meat) so they wont probably be first draft picks. also thnx for grey goo idea. srsly, i was wondering on how to make a bunch of cheap spawn.
You obviously have never eaten crab, they have lots of meat. you seem to have misunderstood killkrazy, although there are many areas that have leyway for a person's own creativity such as creating chapters and regiments,there are areas of official 40k background that make the world what it is (eldar don't like anyone, space marines are male, squat worlds were eaten, tau have nere to zero warp presence so chaos have no interest, tyranids like to eat everything, the number of eldar craftworlds).
The universe has a google of humans, millions of worlds each with billions of toiling humans, full of psykers either hiding or unknown of their powers waiting for the chaos gods to use, tau make up a tiny fraction (~0.0000000000001%) of the universe's sentient population, there is no point in the gods wasting their time.
The gods have no desire to try to posess necrons for the same reason, they have no warp presence.
Plus the tyranid scenarios in deamonhunters have no examples of the tyranid worshipping chaos, there is a difference between effected by the warp or nurgle's diseases and being chaos nids (worshippers)
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Post by: Kilkrazy
To wrap up the argument, if someone wants to make Chaos Tau, go ahead and do it.
Some people will say, "Wow! That's a cool idea", and some people will say, "That's stupid! It sucks", and other people will reserve their opinion.
It doesn't even matter if the GW official fluff supports it or not. Nearly anything can be got around, because the fluff is deliberately so vague.
I like Female Space Marines. I can claim all sorts of justification for why the fluff against them is wrong. For example, it's just Imperial propaganda that women can't accept the progenoids. The two missing Primarchs were women, that is why they are missing -- because the authorities have retconned them out of history.
OT.
The main point is that there need to be differences and contrasts between different races and factions to give the game interest.
People should not be afraid of making something different and interesting. I just feel that Chaos <latest faction> isn't a very interesting idea because it has been done enough times that Chaos has become ho hum. Stick spikes and tentacles on everything and paint it black. Thrash metal. Even mind-bending horror becomes predictable and dull when it is constantly expressed in the same tropes.
I think it's a missed opportunity.
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
With all due respect to Killkrazy I don't think any of it has to due with being afraid of making something differant. There are those of us who believe it is simply impossible which has been supported by fluff. If any of the codices that include information about Tau had mentioned anything about them turning to Chaos then we would have no problem helping the OP to make Chaos Tau. But when the fluff specificly points out that the Tau have almost no presence in the Warp and no fluff has ever indicated that their can or will be any then it is not out of the question for us to say no it can't happen especially when we stay within the boundries of the fluff.
Now I'll be the first to admit that creativity and imagination play a big part in the game. Creating your own army is what the game is all about, for some people it's simple painting their models. For others it's completly intricate and full backgrounds and histories. Now most people don't have a problem with some of the differant stories that are created because they fit within the boundries of the established fluff. Chaos Tau are far outside of those boundries, so while the OP completly has the right to make any army he wan't and to model them how he wants he would be very very hard pressed to justify the army in terms of fluff without having a completly outlandish and radicle story that strains belief.
Orks, Tyranids and such have instances of contact with Chaos that fit within their established fluff. The Orks believing an idle of a Chaos god or Daemon is either Gork or Mork fits with their fluff as in general they are fairly stupid. Tyranids being infected with Nurgles Rot because their Hive Fleet was sucked into the warp, that fits because anyone (even Tau) can be infected with the Rot. The Tau do not worship gods so they cannot be tricked like Orks, they can be infected with the Rot but that does not mean that they will start worshiping Chaos Gods. The OP asked if their was a way that Tau can be turned to Chaos. As supported fluff goes no there is not.
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