Ok just a question on how you guys see this .

I have a 1500 points BA list but its actualy 1501 pts

So the question is allow me to play or say sorry thats too many points?#

Thanks

Is 1501>1500? If the limit is 1500 then anything more is unacceptable.

Anything over 1500 is not 1500. The limit is there for a reason.

Gwar! wrote:Anything over 1500 is not 1500. The limit is there for a reason.

Tell that to the Nova Open judges who let a kid with a 2003 pt list for a 2000 tournament keep his ticket to Vegas =/

In tournaments normally over points == DQ'd or told to resubmit.

In friendly games check with opponents - most wouldnt have a huge issue with it.

Shouldn't have happened, but a tournament is, of course, at the judges discretion so they could have just as easily revoked the ticket...

A limit is a limit, for tourny or friendly games.

Drop some wargear, change a unit, or suggest playing at a higher limit. Anything else is just trying to take advantage of people who you think might let you get away with it.

Hint: Your opponent who is at the limit already made this choice.

The easy way to handle this if you have a hard time thinking of an exact limit is to treat the limit as different for yourself. For a 1500 game, design your army as though it's a 1475 game with up to 25 'over points' allowed.

I hope I am not beating a dead horse but yes a Limit is a Limit.

In friendly games I usually allow a tiny bit of leeway. What chaps my a$$ is when the points that go over the limit are there because of an upgrade in wargear. That is a no-no and is taking advantage of an opponent who is a sport.

Most armies have a vehicle for balancing those out.
For MEQ, drop a special weapon or a melta bomb.
For Orks, leave off a grot oiler or ammo runt.
For eldar, cut a cheap aspect power.
For Tau, a low-cost vehicle mod, or a drone.

Bottom line: 1,500 points is 1,500 points. 1,501 points isn't.

my FLGS has a 1-4point leeway but if you win that game it is only a lesser victory cus your over pointed, you get bonus points if your under pointed though :3

as for my beating of a long dead horse that is starting to smell...

>1501 = not 1500
<1500 = yes 1500

even if it means giving up a valuable flamer or meltabomb. rules are the rules man,

I agree, 1500 means 1500, I have a friend in my local group who constantly tries to pull that 1501-4 bull crap and he constantly has to be told no.

If you have a 1501 point army, is it a 1500 point army?

The answer to my question is the answer to your question.

cl4nj4def4lcon wrote:I agree, 1500 means 1500, I have a friend in my local group who constantly tries to pull that 1501-4 bull crap and he constantly has to be told no.

The one exception that I make to that is for people with 100% WYSIWYG armies since it's much harder to tweak those last few points.

So then, you allow people to bring in an extra meltagun or plasma cannon? I applaud your intention but the result could be disasterous.

In tournies its normally as many points as you want up to 1500, but not 1 point over.
In friendly games I normally cut my opponents a little slack if its going to save them having to re write a whole list, I'd rather than be paying than waiting for them to cut out 1-2 points.

Ask your opponent to play a 1501 point game?

I highly doubt that the one point is actually going to make a large enough difference to really warrant any sort of consideration. If you really think that that 1 point made a huge difference in you getting tabled, then your just a sore loser who needs to get the stick out their butt.

People are saying that 1501 =/= 1500. Neither does 1499. So, unless they build a list that is exactly 1500 points then by their own standards they wouldn't want to play a list with 1499 points. Unless of course they were just trying to take advantage of said player .

I mean, if you'd really prefer for your opponent to rewrite their list to try to dump that one point instead of just playing them then that's your decision, although I'd prefer to just play the game.

In a game like Warmachine where that one point could actually buy another solo or upgrade a 'jack tremendously then it actually could be a little bit of an issue. That's mostly because points range usually from 15-50 for games instead of 500-2000.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:I highly doubt that the one point is actually going to make a large enough difference to really warrant any sort of consideration. If you really think that that 1 point made a huge difference in you getting tabled, then your just a sore loser who needs to get the stick out their butt.

Well, that depends. Was that one point spent on a targeter, or was that one point spillover from abusing MSU? If it was the difference between having 6 5-man squads, and having to suck it up and only have 5 7-man squads, then I think it made an absolute difference.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:People are saying that 1501 =/= 1500. Neither does 1499.

BZZZZZ! Wrong!

Page 86, main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, under the heading "Agree Points Limit & Choose Forces", Paragraph 4:

The first thing players need to do when arranging a game is to decide what points limit they are going to use. For example, they may agree to play a 1,000 points game, in which case the total value of all models in each player force must come to 1,000 points or less (it will often be a few points short, but it still counts as a 1,000 points game).

Bold, large and Red for Emphasis.

Gwar! wrote:

SamplesoWoopass wrote:People are saying that 1501 =/= 1500. Neither does 1499.

BZZZZZ! Wrong!

Page 86, main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, under the heading "Agree Points Limit & Choose Forces", Paragraph 4:

The first thing players need to do when arranging a game is to decide what points limit they are going to use. For example, they may agree to play a 1,000 points game, in which case the total value of all models in each player force must come to 1,000 points or less (it will often be a few points short, but it still counts as a 1,000 points game).

Bold, large and Red for Emphasis.

Oh no no no, in terms of the game you're correct. But in fact, the only number that equals 1500 is 1500. And what people have been saying basically is that if it isn't exactly 1500 it's not 1500. (of course not in those words exactly, but that's what they're saying means.)

@Daeddalus: I agree if they bought a 1 point piece of wargear than go ahead and drop it, but other than that I really wouldn't have a problem with it. And I think that most people wouldn't have a problem with it.

I would. And for one simple reason: I labor obsessively when creating army lists to bring the total within 10 points of the point limit but never over. Quite simply put, I expect the same effort from others. I don't think that's unfair?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:So then, you allow people to bring in an extra meltagun or plasma cannon? I applaud your intention but the result could be disasterous.

I would prefer that someone had that small measure of advantage than that they had proxy models.

SaintHazard wrote:I would. And for one simple reason: I labor obsessively when creating army lists to bring the total within 10 points of the point limit but never over. Quite simply put, I expect the same effort from others. I don't think that's unfair?

I don't know, I'm no mind reader.

However, I do think it's a bit strange to expect everyone else to obsess over not being 1 point over just because you do. But again, if you'd prefer to sit around and wait for your opponent to write their new list rather than go ahead and play the game then that's you. I just think that most people would choose the second option.

If it's a friendly game, it probably won't be a problem but in a tournament, you'd either be disqualified or lose points. You may just be told to make a new army list.

If you allow one point, then why not allow 2, or 3, or 500?

The fact is, the rules say you MUST be at the limit or less. Rules are rules. If you don't follow them deliberately, that is called cheating.

Gwar! wrote:If you allow one point, then why not allow 2, or 3, or 500?

The fact is, the rules say you MUST be at the limit or less. Rules are rules. If you don't follow them deliberately, that is called cheating.

To answer your question, because having 500 extra points can actually have a huge impact on the game. Whereas 1 point does not. The choices of just playing the game vs being a stickler and making them write up a new list is an easy choice for both of us. Our choices are just different.

It's not cheating if I allow them to do it. The rulebook even says that it's just a guideline and doesn't have to be followed if both players are okay with it.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:I do think it's a bit strange to expect everyone else to obsess over not being 1 point over just because you do. But again, if you'd prefer to sit around and wait for your opponent to write their new list rather than go ahead and play the game then that's you. I just think that most people would choose the second option.

I have my lists built weeks in advance. I build lists for fun, when I'm bored at work. It annoys the living crap out of me when people show up, models and codex in hand, and then take half an hour to build their damn list when they could've done it the night before. Especially when I texted them the previous afternoon with something like, "12:00 tomorrow? Bringing 2000 of Tau."

It's like, come on dude. You knew the point limit. You knew when and where we were playing. You even know what army I'm playing. Could you not have put together a 2000 point list last night? This morning? Any time other than five minutes before I plan on actually playing?

Yeah, I tend to play very relaxed games. My local playgroup doesn't play top-tier choices, we often times do things that aren't strictly RAW, and we can take back attacks or other declarations if there was a rule we weren't aware of (shooting at Tau Stealth Suits requiring a roll, for example).

However, even we play that you can't go over point costs. The problem is that if you come in at 1501, then I'll want to take an extra upgrade putting me at 1504, then you come back and go to 1508, and so forth.

Point limit is a point limit. Rework your army and come in under.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:To answer your question, because having 500 extra points can actually have a huge impact on the game. Whereas 1 point does not.

Incorrect.

1 Point can mean you have a single Targetter in your army instead of none, which means you can essentially pre-measure all your shooting.
1 Point can mean the difference between having Mephiston in the army and not.

1 Point can make a massive difference, and that is why the rules tell you to have the limit or less.

The awesome thing is that I actually have a DH list that is one point shy of being able to shoehorn one more GKT into it. I appreciate you having no moral qualms about me running it. I was actually considering dropping one of the four landraiders to fit it in, along with some other slightly less awesome stuff to fill the other points I'd gain back. Not that we'd ever play each other, but I'm happy you'd let me use it. I'm sure it wouldn't make much difference anyway.

As stated - points is points so anything over is DQed from a tourney setting.

However in a friendly, just warn me and no problem. Often done a pick up game where someone runs 10 pts or so over and then I either adjust up to meet or live with it. Percentage wise it is not a big deal but if you had week(s) to prepare a tournament list you can get at or under the points limit.

Gwar! wrote:

SamplesoWoopass wrote:To answer your question, because having 500 extra points can actually have a huge impact on the game. Whereas 1 point does not.

Incorrect.

1 Point can mean you have a single Targetter in your army instead of none, which means you can essentially pre-measure all your shooting.
1 Point can mean the difference between having Mephiston in the army and not.

1 Point can make a massive difference, and that is why the rules tell you to have the limit or less.

Well, how many points is this target-er? If it's 1 point then, as I said, go ahead and drop it because doing that is quite simple. The thing is, is that it isn't 1 point the difference between having mephiston or not. Because if the choice is between him and a 5 point flamer upgrade they'll drop the flamer and take the HQ. So, I guess the difference between our thoughts really lies in that I see the one point difference coming from the least important thing that they have in their army and you see it as coming from the biggest and baddest things they have in their army.

And again, the rules also tell me to ignore some rules if both players agree to it. And being 1 point over is something I could easily agree to let my opponent do.

In that case, you're not running a 2001 point list. You're running a 2001 point-but-drop-the-cheapest-upgrade-when-your-opponent-notices-and-calls-you-out list.

kirsanth wrote:Ask your opponent to play a 1501 point game?

Seriously. There is nothing that says the game must be played with point increments of 10 or anything.
If it is going to take you soooo long to remake a list that is actually 1500 or less (as was apparently agreed), play a 1501 game instead.

daedalus wrote:In that case, you're not running a 2001 point list. You're running a 2001 point-but-drop-the-cheapest-upgrade-when-your-opponent-notices-and-calls-you-out list.

Ummm no actually, because I'm not the one running said list. Also, if I'm playing an opponent and they get in a such a huge hissy fit over 1 point then chances are I probably would not want to play them. That aside, they'd drop the least important thing to their army and thus, that one point really doesn't make the difference in a game that people are suggesting. And as such I'd let my opponent play with it because it means there's no chance of starting any trouble or being seen as a douche bag.

I think that if this happened in real life with a stranger you probably wouldn't bitch at them to change their list, but since this is the internet you're much more likely to get up-in-arms about it.

tournament play I wouldnt allow it. pick up game i dont care. Hell I've let people play 10 points over in pick up games.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:

daedalus wrote:In that case, you're not running a 2001 point list. You're running a 2001 point-but-drop-the-cheapest-upgrade-when-your-opponent-notices-and-calls-you-out list.

Ummm no actually, because I'm not the one running said list. Also, if I'm playing an opponent and they get in a such a huge hissy fit over 1 point then chances are I probably would not want to play them. That aside, they'd drop the least important thing to their army and thus, that one point really doesn't make the difference in a game that people are suggesting. And as such I'd let my opponent play with it because it means there's no chance of starting any trouble or being seen as a douche bag.

I think that if this happened in real life with a stranger you probably wouldn't bitch at them to change their list, but since this is the internet you're much more likely to get up-in-arms about it.

If I was in that situation, I would say agree to play a game slightly over 1500 pts. But, I would insist on increasing it to 1503 or 1505 or something so that I could get another upgrade.

The player that shows up with a legal list shouldn't be penalized.

I'm just saying that there are many circumstances that I've organized myself into a less optimal list in the interest of being within a particular number of points, such that if the expectation of being one or two points over was set upfront, I could have brought something I'd be much more comfortable with. I suppose long as the other person had no problem with me picking up a one or two point upgrade to even it out, well, I'd still not be thrilled, but I wouldn't complain at that point. One of my friends actually did this in a game. It was the difference between him having an Exarch in each of his squads, or just having another guy in one of his other squads and having one Exarch less. And yes, I feel it did make a difference. He had cheaper upgrades he could have dropped for it, true, but he wanted to keep all of those such that he probably would have given up the Exarch first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This actually really forces another question. We agree to a point value. I stay within it; you (hypothetically) go over it. Why am I the bad guy for wanting someone to play within the amount that we specified? Bad Analogy time: If we were playing poker, and we had a max bet, and you bet $2 over the bet, would I be a jerk for calling you out on it?

Depends entirely on how you go about it really. It just seems to me like people are getting way too uptight about a friendly game of toy soldiers. I mean, if there's money on the line then that could be understandable, but there isn't in this situation.

On the same token, am I a jerk-face cheater-pants for letting someone go one point over? I don't think so, but it seems some people might disagree.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:Depends entirely on how you go about it really. It just seems to me like people are getting way too uptight about a friendly game of toy soldiers. I mean, if there's money on the line then that could be understandable, but there isn't in this situation.

On the same token, am I a jerk-face cheater-pants for letting someone go one point over? I don't think so, but it seems some people might disagree.

Again the issue is friendly or tournament. You should be comfortable fielding a 1496 list if the only option is to take or not take a 5 pt modification. For a friendly match I have absolutely no problem but 1501
in a 1500 pt limit tournament is a DQ or a major infraction in my mind. That tells me you can't properly add with a week + to figure out a list that works.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:On the same token, am I a jerk-face cheater-pants for letting someone go one point over?

Anything you and your opponent agree upon is a valid rule.
Like the point value of the game, for example. . . .

Did you both agree point total? Yes
Did you olny have 20 minute to make your list? No, at min you will have a day to make a list.

So you have a day to make a list and still one point over. Now unless he can't count right he has more then enough time to get it under the point total. Someone keeps saying if we want them to be under or right at point total, now we have to what until they rewrite there list. Why not just have them toss one model and just play, he knew he was over maybe next time he will not be.

Now if he clears it with me ahead of time and we agree so be it, but thats not showing up hopeing I don't notice or making my what while they figure out what to drop.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:Depends entirely on how you go about it really. It just seems to me like people are getting way too uptight about a friendly game of toy soldiers. I mean, if there's money on the line then that could be understandable, but there isn't in this situation.

On the same token, am I a jerk-face cheater-pants for letting someone go one point over? I don't think so, but it seems some people might disagree.

Again the issue is friendly or tournament. You should be comfortable fielding a 1496 list if the only option is to take or not take a 5 pt modification. For a friendly match I have absolutely no problem but 1501
in a 1500 pt limit tournament is a DQ or a major infraction in my mind. That tells me you can't properly add with a week + to figure out a list that works.

Friendly is one-on-one. Tourney is multiple people that all have to stay within a point limit as a common feature that all parties that want to participate will work with and can't be easily worked out on the day of the tourney. Also usually an infraction is found out after the fact. So cudos for spotting you are over a points limit but then I would ask, "And you didn't change it because?"

The fact is, you agreed to play a 1,500 game and deliberately brought a 1,501 list. That is the very definition of cheating.

Now, if you had agreed to play a 1,501 game, that is different.

Been playing for many years and I've always gone with Webster's on what a limit is. If you've had time to make up a list before hand, you've had time to make it within the limits. If you're just making it up on the spot, ask if it's okay. 99 times out of a hundred I don't mind.
But if you're in a tournament there's no excuse for going over the points limit. Everyone else had the common decency to stay within the limit, why not you?
As for the original post, I hope you'd take the time you've spent reading and commenting to adjust your list so it's within the agreed on limit.Saves heartache that way.

Is it cheating if I allow my opponent to go 1 point over the limit we set? No, because I agree to it. But to my mind, it shows a great amount of disrespect if we set a time and place to play in advance and he can't be bothered to figure things out ahead of time. If it was a situation where it is a true pick up game and the situation was he brought an 1850 point list and I only brought 1600 points worth of stuff if he could get within a point it would be fine. If I go to my LGS I usually bring a variety of lists for different point levels 1250, 1500 1750 and 2000 points. That way I can play and not waste a lot of time at the store figuring out what to use.

kirsanth wrote:

SamplesoWoopass wrote:On the same token, am I a jerk-face cheater-pants for letting someone go one point over?

Anything you and your opponent agree upon is a valid rule.
Like the point value of the game, for example. . . .

Yeah we get it dude... 1501 pts.

@Gwar: You keep saying that but I've already shown how that's not necessarily true and even if it was it doesn't answer the OP's question.

@ Most everyone else: I was assuming this was a friendly pick up game. I thought that was apparent when I said "friendly game of toy soldiers." And like I said, if there's money on the line (IE: a tournament) then it's understandable to not allow it. I still think that some people are getting too uptight/worked up about this game.

DAaddict and Durzod seem to be the most sensible people on here really.

Remember though, most pick-up games are arranged on the spot. And when I arrive at GW or my FLGS, I never know what i'll be playing (apoc, 1 on 1, 2 vs 2 etc), so I don't bother coming with pre-written lists. When you're just knocking a list together for a friendly game, its hard to plan out your points to be as "point efficient" as possible. Myself and my opponents are often 1,2,3 points over for many games. As some have said, if there are offending items of wargear (such as a melta bomb or something), then thats solveable. If it's something like a flamer which would reduce my opponent from 2003 points to 1998 points, im honestly not going to flinch an eyelid at it. Rules are rules yes, but many MANY battle reports in WD have often marginally gone over their limits too - why can;t we put our common sense hat on and do the same?

I'll bring a 1502pt list as well as a 1500pt list in future - that way, if asked if its okay to use a 1501pt list, I'll just counter with my 1502pt list

Actually, I'm amazed at how many of my Ork lists end up 4 points under... - I should probably identify a 5pt item I would have liked to take if we were playing 1501pts...

For a friendly game, I'd rather be playing than waiting or not playing at all...

MekanobSamael wrote:Most armies have a vehicle for balancing those out.
For MEQ, drop a special weapon or a melta bomb.
For Orks, leave off a grot oiler or ammo runt.
For eldar, cut a cheap aspect power.
For Tau, a low-cost vehicle mod, or a drone.

Bottom line: 1,500 points is 1,500 points. 1,501 points isn't.

For Necrons, redesign list.

I don't run over, but if someone is a few points over, (1-4) I don't much care. It's only a game. The people who go crazy over points cost, seem to be the same exact people who only run "competitive list" IE...6 squads of Grey Hunter in Razorbacks. That pisses me off SO much more than some kid who wanted a Combi-melta for his HQ.

DAaddict wrote:As stated - points is points so anything over is DQed from a tourney setting.

However in a friendly, just warn me and no problem. Often done a pick up game where someone runs 10 pts or so over and then I either adjust up to meet or live with it. Percentage wise it is not a big deal but if you had week(s) to prepare a tournament list you can get at or under the points limit.

I concur, if it's a friendly game and your opponent is aware of the over points then they have to option to either match or accept it or not play you. I see what Gwar is saying that even a point can make a hell of a lot of difference but I also agree with SamplesoWoopass, that a few points might not make any difference.

mulkers wrote:For Necrons, redesign list.

Except that Necrons have EXACTLY ONE BUILD.

So that's pretty easy!

SaintHazard wrote:

mulkers wrote:For Necrons, redesign list.

Except that Necrons have EXACTLY ONE BUILD.

So that's pretty easy!

Lies. Dash has shown that with sufficient META, you can have two or maybe even three Builds!

Gwar! wrote:So that's pretty easy!

Lies. Dash has shown that with sufficient META, you can have two or maybe even three Builds!

SaintHazard wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So that's pretty easy!

Lies. Dash has shown that with sufficient META, you can have two or maybe even three Builds!

You show me a Necron build that doesn't involve "Destroyer lord with warscythe, token block of Warriors, destroyers out the yin-yang and roughly one Monolith for every 750 points" and I'll show a Tau build that successfully incorporates Vespids.

Ouch, we totally tag-teamed that quote fail.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:However, I do think it's a bit strange to expect everyone else to obsess over not being 1 point over just because you do. But again, if you'd prefer to sit around and wait for your opponent to write their new list rather than go ahead and play the game then that's you. I just think that most people would choose the second option.

I think it's a bit strange violate the agreement you made on what points value to use but to act like the guy following the agreement is doing something wrong. Why am I a bad guy for putting in the effort to follow the rules, and the guy who is violating is somehow a victim? I would prefer for my opponent to actually follow the rules in the first place, not to pull some stunt by bringing an illegal list but trying to strongarm me into it by threatening to spend an absurdly long time removing one small upgrade.

I also wonder about this 'minor points' threshold - if you're going to be over, is it OK for me to go over by a little bit too? If you show up with your 'over list', and I say 'that's cool, lets just make it 1505 and I'll take that extra combi-melta I had to ditch in my sternguard' or 'OK, lets just make it 1510 and I'll make that one ML a LC like I wanted', or 'cool, I wanted extra armor on my land raider but couldn't fit it, I'll play at 1515,' or perhaps 'ahh, cool, I'll ditch one combi-weapon and take one more terminator to fill my crusader, 1530 is great,' do you have a problem with any of these? How many points over am I a bad guy to ask for if you're asking for points over? The 'oh I'm just a couple of points over' guys that I've seen tend to think that their overpoints are fine, but letting me take one more thing is terrible.

I would prefer for my opponent to follow the rules. If a new guy realizes after the fight that he screwed up points values for some unit and he's actually 50 points over, I really don't care. If we're making lists on the fly and he wants to bump the points value slightly, I'll take a little extra stuff. But if someone deliberately breaks the rules for advantage, even if he considers the amount small, that's the very definition of cheating. It's not fair to make one person follow the rules and the other not, and it's really not fair try to paint the guy who put in the effort to follow the rules as the bad guy.

^ He said it better than I ever could. +1 to that.

SaintHazard wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So that's pretty easy!

Lies. Dash has shown that with sufficient META, you can have two or maybe even three Builds!

You show me a Necron build that doesn't involve "Destroyer lord with warscythe, token block of Warriors, destroyers out the yin-yang and roughly one Monolith for every 750 points" and I'll show a Tau build that successfully incorporates Vespids.

@ OP: I think someone recommended this in a similar thread...maybe you should be so kind and give every of your opponents the gift of allowing them to field 1505 points? The point is: If you want to be a little bit over, you shouldn't have a problem when they are a little bit over yours right? Just an idea, an approach.

Edit: darn, just realized that this was mentioned one page earlier! Anyway, can't stress things like this too often.

5 points is the difference between a Mortar and an Autocannon. It makes a hell of a lot of difference to the Rhino heading towards you.

3 points allows for a Singing Spear upgrade. Make a lot of difference to the Land Raider nearby. Plus I get to hear about how his Warlock killed my Land Raider forever.

Saying; "It's just 1 point. It doesn't make a lot of difference" is a huge fallacy. That 1 point might be part of a larger chunk of points that makes it possible to field that extra Hive Guard, Terminator, Meltagun or whatever.

Saying; "Just add a Melta Bomb to one of our Sergeants and we are even" is a fallacy. Said squad might not have been taken to move aggresively forwards....making the upgrade utterly pointless. Hell, it might even induce me to stray from the basic tenents of my battleplan, which I had in mind when I made the armylist. Maybe I even considered giving him a Melta Bomb but discarded the idea because it was a useless waste of points.....and now I add it again to compensate for your unwillingness to follow the rules?

If 1-5 points is no big deal, then remove them. They are "no big deal", remember?

Thank you for putting me in a situation where I, by saying "no", is denying you your "right to have fun". I am not really given a choice. You broke the rules/agreement and suddenly I'M the TFG?!?

We have to set the limit somewhere....and that might as well be at the limit agreed upon beforehand.

I completely agree that in Tournament play its strictly limit only - and for good reason.

Like I said earlier though, in pick up games, I often don;t know whether ill be playing APOC, or 2 vs 2, or some other variant of game. It's difficult to plan your points out properly when youre knocking a list together in 5 minutes, so the odd over point is going to happen. At our GW and FLGS, we write our lists down for all to see, so no-one really has an issue with being 1,2, or 3 points over. If you lose to the overpointed player, I hardly think the difference of 3 points is going to have had that significant effect. One less terminator sure, but it could have been an HK and a storm bolter on a vehicle that could have done MORE damage.

To re-iterate, in Tournament play, strictly the limit. In friendlies, does anyone really care? The important thing is to get as much killing done as possible. More points means more targets!!!!

liam0404 wrote:Like I said earlier though, in pick up games, I often don;t know whether ill be playing APOC, or 2 vs 2, or some other variant of game. It's difficult to plan your points out properly when youre knocking a list together in 5 minutes, so the odd over point is going to happen. At our GW and FLGS, we write our lists down for all to see, so no-one really has an issue with being 1,2, or 3 points over. If you lose to the overpointed player, I hardly think the difference of 3 points is going to have had that significant effect. One less terminator sure, but it could have been an HK and a storm bolter on a vehicle that could have done MORE damage.

Why 3 and not 5 or 10? Is it just so that if someone makes their list to the actual point limit, you can claim they're being terribly abusive if they say 'well, you're over, I'll take the combi-weapon I skipped'? It always seems to be that YOUR over points are fine and I'm being TFG if I don't like you not following the rules, but if I try to put MY over points on then I'm TFG for going too many points over. If it really isn't anything to worry about, you should be fine with me going 10 over when you're 3 over and we can start the game, but it doesn't sound like you're fine with that.

And again, if the points are so insignificant, why not take off whatever knocked you 1 point over? You say it's not significant on one hand, but consider someone TFG if you don't get to have it on the other, so you seem to think the points are significant since you get upset at the idea of taking them off.

Did i once mention i was upset? I don't think I did.

I think that taking an upgrade that costs 8 pts for example that takes you up to 2003 is more forgiveable, than being at 1999 points and taking 1 extra tactical marine. THAT's what im getting at. If i'm at 2001 points and I have an item of wargear worth 1 point, of course ill drop it. I'm more referring to the example at the beginning of this paragraph.

No one accused you of being TFG, so don't say that I did.

I'm with steelmage on this one.
Let's be serious, that single point HAS to do something important (in which case it would be an unfair advantage) or you could just drop it on the spot, in whichever case, that point will be gone before we start...

liam0404 wrote:I think that taking an upgrade that costs 8 pts for example that takes you up to 2003 is more forgiveable, than being at 1999 points and taking 1 extra tactical marine. THAT's what im getting at. If i'm at 2001 points and I have an item of wargear worth 1 point, of course ill drop it. I'm more referring to the example at the beginning of this paragraph.

I think that breaking the rules is something you simply shouldn't do. The only reason you're 3 points over is that you weren't willing to run 5 points under - you could have just taken your 1995 point list and avoided the point of contention entirely. Do you really believe that 3 points is utterly insignificant, but 5 points is hugeley significant and will shift the results dramatically? I doubt you do, so why are you so insistent on running slightly over instead of slightly under?

That's the thing that I don't like about this argument, and that none of the 'no big deal' crowd seem willing to acknowledge. If a few points is so insignificant, what's the big deal with running slightly under instead of slightly over? According to your argument the handful of points is insignificant and not worth worrying over, but the only reason we're having this discussion is that instead of giving the advantage to your opponent, you insist that the advantage should go to you. Why not be the bigger man and give your opponent the advantage you want us to believe is insignificant?

You're acting as though a handful of points is only insignificant if it's in your favor, but is significant if it's in your opponent's favor.

If you lose to the overpointed player, I hardly think the difference of 3 points is going to have had that significant effect.
In friendlies, does anyone really care?

No one accused you of being TFG, so don't say that I did.

The implication is there - if you go on about 'I hardly think that matters' and 'does anyone really care', what's your response if someone does think it matters or does care? Sounds to me like you're going to respond that they're nitpicking over insignificant things, which is one of the big TFG behaviours. But, if I'm wrong on that, how would you respond if your opponent said 'this list is over, I thought we agreed to 2000 points, can you make a legal list?'

1500 means 1500 or less.

Our gaming group is very clear on this point.

As has been said earlier, if you are 1 or 5 points over, drop off a melta bomb or some other unit upgrade.

I tend to be rather forgiving about people over the points limit.

I have confidence in my list building, and generally in a regular day of gaming I just want to get started, and actually play the game
Watching somebody toil an additional 5-10 minutes and gripe about me being a stickler is not worth it to me, even if it would be the right thing to do.

I personally never go over, and generally my lists are between 4 under and exactly on target. But this is due more to my own honor code than anything else.

But my honor code is more rigorous than most peoples, I play lists built up in advance at my house without knowing my opponent. So no list tailoring... you get the idea. I want to win because of skill, not because I tailored my list to beat my opponent an went over the limit to fit in more upgrades and powers.

Well i can see i opened a can of worms with my original post

i have in the past had a list 1 and 5 pts over the limit and yes so has my regular oppnenets ,also my current list is 10 pts bellow the limit and i would allow my oppnent to be over his by say 5 pts with no moaning at all

All i can say is i am glad i dont do tournys since i prefer fun games with people i know who wont stamp there feet should i go over the limit by a point or 2

But the post was started to let me know what the general feeling was and it seems that most people are more interested in winning than playing for fun since they would stamp there feet like a child if i were 1 point over.

Guys be real at some point you have to say sure fine its a few points who cares and the same goes if your over .

I do make my list hit or below the limit 99% of the time but its a game not llife and death ,

If you cant play friends and give a little leeway then i feel for you

snakel wrote:All i can say is i am glad i dont do tournys since i prefer fun games with people i know who wont stamp there feet should i go over the limit by a point or 2

So do you mind if I move all my infantry 7 or 8" then while you move yours 6"? After all, it's only an inch or two.

snakel wrote:But the post was started to let me know what the general feeling was and it seems that most people are more interested in winning than playing for fun since they would stamp there feet like a child if i were 1 point over.

I am glad I do not regularly play people who cannot count as well as many children.

On a serious note, you may want to check out your OP, you never mention tourney or friendly game. So people saying it is an issue in a tourney are giving perfectly relevant responses.

And again, if you have agreed to play by any rules or rules changes with an opponent--even in a tourney--that is fine.

If you regularly say that 2000 point lists can be 2013 points, why not just make 2013 point lists from the get-go? Having someone hold you to agreed upon limit (points or not!) is not a good example of being "more interested in winning than playing for fun". It an easily an example of assuming someone meant what they said and is NOT trying to squeeze extra points in an attempt to win.

I do find it really strange that there is even the hint of an accusation that the person building a list that follows all the agreed upon restrictions is TFG playing only to win--and the guy breaking the agreement and showing up with more is not.

I think I understand where you are coming from, but I think it strange nonetheless.

1 Tournements were not mentioned since i thought it was obvious they were played to win and not really for fun (dont tell me there are for fun they may be fun, put the be all and end all is winning )

2 Its not about being able to count since stating my list is 1501 or 1490 would suggest i could count

3 Its about playing a game for fun and accepting the odd point here and there instead of a flat no your cheating

4 As for moving 8" and 6" that is cheating with intent , to say hey my list is 1505pts not 1500 that ok or do you want me to lose somthing ? with you saying nah its no biggy , is not since i or my oponent was happy to accept it

5 if it was all the time and they could never hit the limit then, yes you would say at some point hey come on you,ve had your leeway now your pushing it

Ok to the original post it was asking what people feelings were regarding this and from the answers i got ,it was clear most people are unable to give any slack suggesting that they cant play the game when they think they might lose due to an extra melta and what not .

I make my lists and like i said 99% they hit the target on the odd few times they dont i would be happy drop somthing if It caused trouble but i would also not have a problem with somone being over

Maybe its me but i was thinking the general opinion would be sure as long as it was not all the time 1 point no biggy but instead it was a flat no 1500 =1500 not 1501

This is a forum not a live chat ,you can only read what is written and the replies were worded in a way as to say never, oh no you can do that , or hey your cheating

But still i love a good argument everynow and then and this has been a good one so thanks all for your input and however you view it, it only matters if the people you play view it differently

snakel wrote:4 As for moving 8" and 6" that is cheating with intent , to say hey my list is 1505pts not 1500 that ok or do you want me to lose somthing ? with you saying nah its no biggy , is not since i or my oponent was happy to accept it

So why is the rule to stay under the limit less important than the one that says you can only move infantry 6"?

LOL did i say less important?

I did however say that being a few point over if your oppnent is ok with it is no biggy

and as for anyone that mentioned tournments they would be right since they are tournements and trying to gain an advantage in an arena ment for winning and not just for fun would be cheating

The point here is cheating with intent or not how do you view that, making a list over limit taking advantage of there good nature is cheating ,making a list and asking you oppnent" hey can i go 1 point over and him saying sure its no biggy "once in a while is not

I think anyone with half a brain can see how ridiculous the "let me have 3 extra points because they're not a big deal" camp starts to sound when you realize that 1) it's a not a big deal as long as they're the ones going over the predetermined limit, and 2) if they're making a big deal out of keeping those extra 3 points, clearly they're actually a pretty big deal.

Quit being hypocrites and follow the damn rules already.

Actually, I dislike people who have 'over' lists and then drop whatever weapon or wargear that won't be used or effective against your army.

What if I had an ork list that was points over, and every time I played Nids I dropped bombsquigs but when I played marines I dropped a big shoota? Maybe when I play a skimmer-heavy army I drop grenades?

This selective pre-game tweaking of non-optimal stuff in the name of coming in under points should *NOT* be tolerated. It is selfish and a bit rude and changing 'what you drop' every game can seriously impact things.

snakel wrote:I did however say that being a few point over if your oppnent is ok with it is no biggy

The thing is, why do you consider this an acceptable to even ask? If I were to ask, "Can all my units move an extra inch?", what would you say?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Actually, I dislike people who have 'over' lists and then drop whatever weapon or wargear that won't be used or effective against your army.

What if I had an ork list that was points over, and every time I played Nids I dropped bombsquigs but when I played marines I dropped a big shoota? Maybe when I play a skimmer-heavy army I drop grenades?

This selective pre-game tweaking of non-optimal stuff in the name of coming in under points should *NOT* be tolerated. It is selfish and a bit rude and changing 'what you drop' every game can seriously impact things.

Also this. It's not hard to make a list come equal to or under.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

liam0404 wrote:I think that taking an upgrade that costs 8 pts for example that takes you up to 2003 is more forgiveable, than being at 1999 points and taking 1 extra tactical marine. THAT's what im getting at. If i'm at 2001 points and I have an item of wargear worth 1 point, of course ill drop it. I'm more referring to the example at the beginning of this paragraph.

I think that breaking the rules is something you simply shouldn't do. The only reason you're 3 points over is that you weren't willing to run 5 points under - you could have just taken your 1995 point list and avoided the point of contention entirely. Do you really believe that 3 points is utterly insignificant, but 5 points is hugeley significant and will shift the results dramatically? I doubt you do, so why are you so insistent on running slightly over instead of slightly under?

That's the thing that I don't like about this argument, and that none of the 'no big deal' crowd seem willing to acknowledge. If a few points is so insignificant, what's the big deal with running slightly under instead of slightly over? According to your argument the handful of points is insignificant and not worth worrying over, but the only reason we're having this discussion is that instead of giving the advantage to your opponent, you insist that the advantage should go to you. Why not be the bigger man and give your opponent the advantage you want us to believe is insignificant?

You're acting as though a handful of points is only insignificant if it's in your favor, but is significant if it's in your opponent's favor.

If you lose to the overpointed player, I hardly think the difference of 3 points is going to have had that significant effect.
In friendlies, does anyone really care?

No one accused you of being TFG, so don't say that I did.

The implication is there - if you go on about 'I hardly think that matters' and 'does anyone really care', what's your response if someone does think it matters or does care? Sounds to me like you're going to respond that they're nitpicking over insignificant things, which is one of the big TFG behaviours. But, if I'm wrong on that, how would you respond if your opponent said 'this list is over, I thought we agreed to 2000 points, can you make a legal list?'

First things first, you need to calm down. You've 100% misinterpreted what I've been saying. In tourneys, the limit is there, and its cast iron. In pick up games, its easily bent. At my FLGS, often you hear "I'm a couple over, is that ok?" and no one ever has an issue. In friendly games, it doesn't matter. Really. If you play friendlies to WAAC, then you may as well hang up your dice now. At my FLGS, players are more concerned with enjoying the game than going berserk at the extra point on the table. If someone fielded an overpointed list in a tourney, id be part of the lynching mob. In friendlies, its not a big deal. You also seem to have this idea (from where I don't have a clue) that id stop my oponnent from being slightly over points. Have I said that? No. Id happily allow it to let the game commence quicker.

If you've got further criticism of me, id happly challenge you to a 1500 vs 2001 point game, and show you how to win without bitching about 1 point extra.

In a pick up game, where your opponent did not know what point limit you were playing and needed to write a quick list to get started I don't mind over points. Both because their list will not be optimized and because we can start the game quicker.

In a pre-determined game (friendly or tournament) where my opponent showed up with overpoints I would be annoyed. We agreed on a point limit and build our lists in advance so we could start immediately. By going over the points limit you force me to choose between 2 bads:

1). I ask you to rewrite your lists, taking out time which we could have spend playing, with the risk of being called nit-picky because I like to follow the rules, or
2). Allow you to use your list, which I do not like, feeling cheated the entire game. Just so we can get started

The points limit is there for a reason and unless you play with people you know and already discussed with that the limit is "flexible" you should keep to that limit.

The thing that gets me in this entire discussion is that somehow the person that is following the rules is the bad guy, ruining the fun of the game. Every game has a rule set that keeps the game fair and fun for everyone. Calling people that like to follow these rules the ones that take away the fun seems strange to me.

In the end it is always up to you and your opponent, but if you want to deviate from the core rules you better discuss this well before the game, and not at the table just before you start. So even though in specific cases it might not be an issue (like the people snakel plays with), this is not something that can be assumed to be accepted in general.

liam0404 wrote:If i'm at 2001 points and I have an item of wargear worth 1 point, of course ill drop it.

But why would you come to a 2000 point game with 2001 points when you have an item of wargear that you could have dropped pre-game? That makes next to no sense.

The other thing that is being missed here is that if I go to a LGS, or a new club, or to play a pick up game, I may not know the person I'm playing. That's the whole point of a pick up game, particularly at an LGS or GW store, or whatever.

If I go to play a pick up game against someone I don't know, and they overpoint their list (that we agreed upon), then what does that tell me about the player? How do I ask them to re-do their list? How do I know how they'll react? Do I even want to play them? If they're going to do this at the list building phase, what might I encounter actually playing the game?

When two people agree to play a game of toy soldiers, there should be an expectation of mutual respect and responsibility as it pertains to the game, and its conduct.

As has been pointed out, once you start cutting corners, then where do you end up?

If its not obvious, I'm in the 'exactly at the agreed points or under' camp.

snakel wrote:1 Tournements were not mentioned since i thought it was obvious they were played to win and not really for fun (dont tell me there are for fun they may be fun, put the be all and end all is winning )

I am paying to go to a tourney this weekend for fun. To each their own.

snakel wrote:But still i love a good argument everynow and then and this has been a good one so thanks all for your input and however you view it, it only matters if the people you play view it differently

Why would anyone ever build a list that is over. If you know the people at your FLGS play 1500 points then why wouldn't you spend a few minutes and write a list that is under that before you show up at the store. I've got plenty of lists that come in 5-10 points under because I can't fit something else in that I want without going over. You've made your list before you've gone to the store so why can't you be bothered to make a list that is for the normal points games.

Now if you're at and you have a 1750 list and someone else brought 1500 and you can only drop to 1505 easily and the other guy is cool with you having more points then go for it. If you plan for a game of a predetermined point value, make a list for that point value.

personally i run lists that are often 10-15 points under, Simply because i dont have the ability to really use the remaining 15 points to my liking, and taking what i want would put me over. in friendly games you often agree to a points limit at a certain time and place, and thats what you play. being over is simply disrespectful to your opponent. we have a guy like this at our FLGS. he always shows up with 1502 or 2003 pts and says oh its just 3 pts whatever. my response and most others is, well then loose that 5 point bolter, or squad upgrade and deal with it. he responds with "But that wrecks my battleplan!" which leads myself and others to respond with "well not playing the game wrecks it more" thus, i am forced to state that i agree with the others. a points LIMIT is a limit for a reason. if its no big deal to be over 1 point, then loose something and be a few points under. the guy in previous example is TFG and now no one plays him, unless he adjusts his list.

The only time i see exception to be made, is in a quick pickup game when you dont have time to plan, and are both hashing out lists without a set point value. ie: "well i have 1850 roughly... can you do that? no, ok how about this..." and so on. However these games are often set to 1 players limit, such as the 1850, the other player ends up padding his list to match but both are under the set value of 1850. (player 1 at 1848 and player 2 at 1830, or something simaler)

</end> rant

Even in friendly games with my friends, we are strict on the points limit, and would not allow an extra point. The problem is that it leads to a slippery slope - what about 10 extra points? What about 15? After all, for a 1500pt game, that's just 1%. What about 30?

At some point, it's just better to avoid those arguments. Now, if there were only a few choices in the book, and you'd either be 200 points short or 1 point over - like if every unit was 230 points or something - then it would be a different situation. But it's not. Every list that is 1500 points has a few upgrades in the 5 points or less category.

EDIT: removed rant that won't achieve anything anyway, this is up to the TO.

Gwar! wrote:

snakel wrote:All i can say is i am glad i dont do tournys since i prefer fun games with people i know who wont stamp there feet should i go over the limit by a point or 2

So do you mind if I move all my infantry 7 or 8" then while you move yours 6"? After all, it's only an inch or two.

And off to the left ladies and gents, we have what we call a strawman argument.

Oooooh......Ahhhhhhhhh.



It is ONE frigging point people. Outside tourny play, nobody should really give a hoot, unless you want to be a rule nazi or TFG.

But hey, this is Dakka! Lets argue for 3 pages over one point.

With a bit of OTT reductio ad absurdum thrown in for good measure

edit: JP- You've discredited yourself sir, an argument from personal incredulity and then an ad hominem attack on Dakka!

This thread needs to die!

Well certainly at this point I can't imagine any new perspective or argument will be generated between the only 4 logical ones:

Some people will allow it

Some people will not

Intentionally overcosting that then downgrading once you peek at your opponents forces makes you a tool

It's better to avoid the situation by just following the rules

Putting your opponent in a position where you ask them to break the rules that you already agreed to is being very rude. If they say "no, you can't break the rules", you make them out to be a jerk. You are pressuring them into agreeing to your breach of the agreement.

The very concept is so backwards that knowingly going over in points has always been completely unfathomable to me.

As far as rules go, the book is explicitly clear on this point, an agreed upon point limit may not be exceeded. No rules debate here, just people rationalizing rude behavior.

jp400 wrote:

It is ONE frigging point people. Outside tourny play, nobody should really give a hoot, unless you want to be a rule nazi or TFG.

If it is one frigging point, then why don't you remove it?

It isn't just "one frigging point", is it? No, that one measly little point is joined by his 129 little friends that makes an additional Vendetta possible (just an example).

What.... did someone say if one guy showing up with less then or right at the agreed on point total and the other guy comes with a list thats over. The guy with the list not over the total is out to only win and not the one there for fun. If you agree to a point total and you have even 10 minute before a game, you should be able to get it right, you should atleast show the other guy that much respect.

In a friendly i allow 2pts over because I round up/down in 5s.
But at 3 points it is closer to the 5pt mark which is 1 war gear upgrade.

In a tournament however I wouldn't allow it at all.

Yeah, it is kinda odd.

It seems that the statement; "Anybody that doesn't let me go a few points over is obviously a WAAC gamer.", makes perfect sense to the people that advocate going over is OK.

I wonder what they would think of an equally erroneous statement like; "Anybody that goes over is list-tailoring and obviously a WAAC gamer."?

This ties into another thing that has me puzzled.

Who doesn't make their list beforehand and why don't they?

When I show up for a game I bring a list and the models I need.
I mean, do these people bring their entire collection and then make lists on the fly AFTER agreeing to play a game?

Even when I haven't arranged any games beforehand, I still make a list, bring the models and then show up to see who's there to play.

Why don't these people make a list beforehand?
Wouldn't this prevent any situations along the lines of; "I will not force my opponent to spend 15 minutes reworking his list."?
Do these people hold off on making their list because they would like to know who they are facing, before tailoring their list to that opponent?

I guess that the concept of bringing my entire collection along with me and THEN make a list at the store is completely and utterly alien to me.

Ok it's easy to say 'take off one melta bomb', but I've had marine player friends build lists with no upgrades come in at a total of 2001. To trim his ist, he'd have to drop a tac marine. I can say hand on heart, that id have no issue letting him use it.

To those saying its easy to plan points in a pick up game - is that a 3 headed monkey I see? Its easy to plan points when there's a queue of players waiting for a game when you're done? Should I turn round to them, and say "This heathen is 1 point over! But don't worru, I'm making hin rethink his whole list!".

But hey, if everyone at your flgs would rather see the point count enforced rather than play games themselves, that's their decision. I think its fair to say that this debate goes slightly beyond a rules discussion, and also covers elements of practicality.


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@steemage

I've already discussed above why I don't make lists beforehand. At my flgs, I dony know if ill be playing 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2 or apoc. Would you use a "sensible " 40k list in a game of apoc? I certainly wouldn't.

You can make several lists.

But I understand what you are saying.
I play in a club where 1750 and 2000 are standard values for games.
This means that pretty much everybody bring a 1750 or 2000 point list and most bring both 1750-variants and 2000-variants of their list.

I realize that not everybody is in such a happy situation.

I appreciate you acknowledging thay. If my flgs had similar guidelines then id be better prepared, but we don't have anything like that. We just go with whatever types of game are running at the time, so it can be hard to predict.

In friendly games there's no reason to stop someone going slightly over. The slight increase in points will almost never have a significant effect on the game, while the game will likely be far less enjoyable if you bitch at someone for having a 1 point over army.

ph34r wrote:In friendly games there's no reason to stop someone going slightly over. The slight increase in points will almost never have a significant effect on the game, while the game will likely be far less enjoyable if you bitch at someone for having a 1 point over army.

In a friendly game there is no reason to go slightly over either.

If the slight increase in points doesn't have a significant effect on the game, why go over in the first place?

Nobody is bitching. What would you do if I in a calm (perhaps low) voice kindly (perhaps even timidly) pointed out that I would be more comfortable if the lists were not above the point-value? Answer this, please.

Because guess who is the bitching WAAC power gamer now? There is no reason why you request to go over the value has more positive weight attached to it, than my request to please stay within the point-limit.

snakel wrote:Ok just a question on how you guys see this .

I have a 1500 points BA list but its actualy 1501 pts

So the question is allow me to play or say sorry thats too many points?#

Thanks

The answer to your question will vary on your opponent.

I would not mind, as if you are so worried about the tactical implications of losing 5 points (a single piece of wargear) in order to meet the pre-agreed point limitm META tells me you probably don't have as much experience with your doodz as I have with mine.

I hate to say it, but this seems more like a troll thread then anything else (Asking the personal opinion of "being 1 point over" with a biased answer set with no actual "solid" rules questioning.

~DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I hate to say it, but this seems more like a troll thread then anything else (Asking the personal opinion of "being 1 point over" with a biased answer set with no actual "solid" rules questioning.

Just my opinion, but I'd consider YMDC to be the place for questions that are not necessarily answered by the BRB, but also as a general sampling of the community to gather a sense of what is usual and customary.

Ouze wrote:
Just my opinion, but I'd consider YMDC to be the place for questions that are not necessarily answered by the BRB, but also as a general sampling of the community to gather a sense of what is usual and customary.

Which I would completely agree with if the question wasn't so heavily biased.

"allow me to play or say sorry thats too many points"

Seems to imply victimization, IMO.

Good night, you people are kinda uptight about this! In tourneys, I can understand point-stickling, but in friendly games...well, I have gone up to 10 points over my limit, and no one ever cares! Plus, war 'taint far, m'boy.*Monocle*

_Tim?

Yep, we're uptight about following the rules, not cheating, all that stuff. If you and I agree to a 1500 point game, then per the rulebook, both our lists are supposed to be 1500 or less. We're not hewre to discuss club rules, house rules, etc, but what the rules are. And the rules say agreed point value or less.

Now do I mind if my opponent goes over in friendly games? No, so long as he gives me a chance to adjust my list and add the same number of points. That could be the meltagun I didn't add, or the extra armor, etc etc. Yes, one point can change the game as it changes the choices you make on the list.

i prefer fun games with people i know who wont stamp there feet should they be under by a point or 2

I was going to type a reply but it was easier to slightly modify one of yours.

I don't get this whole attitude thing.

If you are play testing for something or its casual there is no harm. But if the match you are playing is slightly competitive (or any bit serious) then it is widely rude and arrogant to complain you feel victimised if you are over the rules agreed upon.

That is not what the person is doing here but some others in the thread seem to think it would be acceptable to do this then guilt trip their opponent for making other people wait while they re do their list.

Steelmage99 wrote:Do these people hold off on making their list because they would like to know who they are facing, before tailoring their list to that opponent?

I guess that the concept of bringing my entire collection along with me and THEN make a list at the store is completely and utterly alien to me.

Yes, they often do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

liam0404 wrote:Ok it's easy to say 'take off one melta bomb',

What if the melta bombs are modelled?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:Do these people hold off on making their list because they would like to know who they are facing, before tailoring their list to that opponent?

I guess that the concept of bringing my entire collection along with me and THEN make a list at the store is completely and utterly alien to me.

Yes, they often do.

Although, in some playgroups, this is considered perfectly acceptable and both sides can tweak lists based on opponent's army. But, that's a different discussion.

Scott-S6 wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Ok it's easy to say 'take off one melta bomb',

What if the melta bombs are modelled?

Well, if you're consistently playing the same point limit and have a "take all comers" army list, you should be constantly running into this problem and should rip the meltabomb off the model. If this is a one-time issue, just ignore the model. Not being 100% WYSIWYG is more acceptable than being over points, IMO.

Grakmar wrote:Although, in some playgroups, this is considered perfectly acceptable and both sides can tweak lists based on opponent's army. But, that's a different discussion.

How is it possible for both people to do that? At some point one of you is going to have a finished list while the other is tweaking to match.

Or do you show lists, both go away and tweak and then show lists again?

I hate the WysiWyg rule in all it's form. It has caused me to break many models (Read: My brute way of modeling broke them - but it wouldn't of needed to happen)

But the rule is as solid as the points rule. A person may see that melta bomb and spend a units firing turn trying to remove the unit because it is too close to his light transport -forgetting the list he read 15 minutes ago.

Grakmar wrote:Well, if you're consistently playing the same point limit and have a "take all comers" army list, you should be constantly running into this problem and should rip the meltabomb off the model. If this is a one-time issue, just ignore the model. Not being 100% WYSIWYG is more acceptable than being over points, IMO.

You're assuming that the person is question is always playing the same list. It might be sensible to do that but there are many people who seem to be incapable of sticking to a list.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:I highly doubt that the one point is actually going to make a large enough difference to really warrant any sort of consideration. If you really think that that 1 point made a huge difference in you getting tabled, then your just a sore loser who needs to get the stick out their butt.

People are saying that 1501 =/= 1500. Neither does 1499. So, unless they build a list that is exactly 1500 points then by their own standards they wouldn't want to play a list with 1499 points. Unless of course they were just trying to take advantage of said player .

I mean, if you'd really prefer for your opponent to rewrite their list to try to dump that one point instead of just playing them then that's your decision, although I'd prefer to just play the game.

In a game like Warmachine where that one point could actually buy another solo or upgrade a 'jack tremendously then it actually could be a little bit of an issue. That's mostly because points range usually from 15-50 for games instead of 500-2000.

It isn't just 1 point. It is whatever you bought that put you over by 1 point. So if my Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf had his wolf tooth necklace put him over the limit by 1 point, he is now hitting everything in your army on a 3+. Extra armor on my rhino putting my list over the limit by 1 point is now allowing it to rush onto an objective last turn instead of not being able to move and shoot. There are countless other examples I could give that make it more then just being 1 point over the limit that would affect the game greatly from turn 1 till the end.

Steelmage99 wrote:In a friendly game there is no reason to go slightly over either.

If the slight increase in points doesn't have a significant effect on the game, why go over in the first place?

Nobody is bitching. What would you do if I in a calm (perhaps low) voice kindly (perhaps even timidly) pointed out that I would be more comfortable if the lists were not above the point-value? Answer this, please.

Because guess who is the bitching WAAC power gamer now? There is no reason why you request to go over the value has more positive weight attached to it, than my request to please stay within the point-limit.

Actually there is, sometimes it's the difference between an organized, fluffy, themed list, and one that is perfectly balanced except one tac squad has 9 members for some reason.
If you asked me that I would probably say, "why, do you think that my one tac marine which puts me 1 point over will change the course of the game significantly? You would rather me be 15 points under with an unbalanced and unfluffy list than be 1 point over?"
In this case nobody would be a bitching WAAC power gamer, but if one person had to be it, it'd definitely be you.

liam0404 wrote:First things first, you need to calm down. You've 100% misinterpreted what I've been saying... If you've got further criticism of me, id happly challenge you to a 1500 vs 2001 point game, and show you how to win without bitching about 1 point extra.

I seem to have 100% correctly interpreted what you're saying, you haven't shown anywhere where I've actually misinterpreted anything. You didn't use the phrase "TFG", but when you accuse someone of WAAC and of going berserk over something that doesn't matter, it means you're accusing them of being TFG. And why are you telling me to calm down when you're the one issuing Internet Blowhard Challenges? Do you really think that challenging people to play a game magically turns your arguments valid?

No one accused you of being TFG, so don't say that I did.

In friendly games, it doesn't matter. Really. If you play friendlies to WAAC, then you may as well hang up your dice now. At my FLGS, players are more concerned with enjoying the game than going berserk at the extra point on the table.

How is saying that "it doesn't matter", accusing me of "WAAC", and calling it "going berserk" to say "this list is over, I thought we agreed to 2000 points, can you make a legal list?" anything other than accusing me of being TFG? It was obvious from the start that this was the line of argument that you were taking, the fact that you were trying to hide the TFG accusation a bit doesn't change that arguing 'it doesn't matter' almost inevitably leads to 'you're TFG if you don't agree with me and think it does matter'.

I think that taking an upgrade that costs 8 pts for example that takes you up to 2003 is more forgiveable, than being at 1999 points and taking 1 extra tactical marine. THAT's what im getting at. If i'm at 2001 points and I have an item of wargear worth 1 point, of course ill drop it. I'm more referring to the example at the beginning of this paragraph.

If someone fielded an overpointed list in a tourney, id be part of the lynching mob. In friendlies, its not a big deal. You also seem to have this idea (from where I don't have a clue) that id stop my oponnent from being slightly over points. Have I said that? No. Id happily allow it to let the game commence quicker.

You said that if you're 5 points under, you won't accept playing the game giving 5 points to your opponent, but instead will tack on one more piece of wargear taking you to 3 over instead of 5 under, then try to get your opponent to accept it (and accuse him of "going berserk" if he doesn't allow it according to your latest post). You say that you'd happily allow it, but in your example you don't allow it at all.

Again, if it's no big deal, why not just play 5 under instead of tacking on one more thing to go 3 over? You're willing to call 3 over in your favor no big deal, but fight hard against being 5 under. And while it's easy to issue an Internet Challenges that you know you won't have to follow through on to play 500 points under, the fact is that your own example showed you completely unwilling to play 1% of that under.

I agree with Gwar! (as if my opinion really maters).
But, if it's a friendly game and both sides agree with the "point cushion" I don't see any harm.

BEAULONEA wrote:I agree with Gwar! (as if my opinion really maters).
But, if it's a friendly game and both sides agree with the "point cushion" I don't see any harm.

Dont worry, he is usually right and he likes the ego boost lol.

But the general consensus here is that it matters in serious or tournament games.

ph34r wrote:Actually there is, sometimes it's the difference between an organized, fluffy, themed list, and one that is perfectly balanced except one tac squad has 9 members for some reason.
If you asked me that I would probably say, "why, do you think that my one tac marine which puts me 1 point over will change the course of the game significantly? You would rather me be 15 points under with an unbalanced and unfluffy list than be 1 point over?"

Downgrade a meltagun to a flamer.

Scott-S6 wrote:What if the melta bombs are modelled?

By RAW, WYSIWYG only says that you have to model upgrades, not that everything that could be an upgrade on the model must have points paid for it, so it fits RAW.

Is there really any gaming environment that is strict, unbending 100% WYSIWYG, no proxies or 'that just looks cool, it's not an upgrade' but also doesn't care if lists have the correct number of points? I would think anywhere that strict on modeling would be similarly strict on what you're modeling following the rules.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:Actually there is, sometimes it's the difference between an organized, fluffy, themed list, and one that is perfectly balanced except one tac squad has 9 members for some reason.

I would like for you to post a list where this happens in the Army List forum. If all of your assault, tac, and dev squads are 10-man, they all come out to even multiples of 10 points, and their wargear options all cost multiples of 5. Vanguard vets, terminators, sternguard vets, bikers, scout bikers, command squads, and honor guard all cost multiples of 5 points. All standalone characters cost multiples of 5 points, as do all vehicles and transports. The only way that I can think of to get 1 point over is by taking odd minor wargear choices (like 2 power armor ICs each with a storm bolter), but in that case you could take off one of the minor pieces of wargear instead of a tac marine.

In order to get a list where the cheapest way to scrape 1 point and still be legal, you'd need to take no upgrades that cost less than 16 points, and no upgrades that have a lesser, similar upgrade with a difference of less than 16 points. That means no combi-weapons, melta guns, plasma guns, plasma cannons, lascannons, melta bombs, power weapons, lightning claws (could drop to power weapon for 15), power fists (could drop from fist to weapon for 10 points), thunderhammers (could drop from hammer to fist for 5), devastator heavy weapons (can drop to a lower one or drop a 15 point one entirely), vehcile upgrades, and a whole bunch of other stuff I'd be suprised not to see in any list someone called fluffy.

I just don't believe that you have a set of genuine fluff that generates such a specific list limitation that you genuinely would be forced to remove a tactical marine.

In this case nobody would be a bitching WAAC power gamer, but if one person had to be it, it'd definitely be you.

I think the guy who is trying to go over points and is making a lame excuse about a 'fluffy, themed' list is clearly the WAAC guy. If the theme of your list is 'be one point over', or your fluff is made up just to let you take a specific list, your opponent is not the one being unreasonable. I don't see how you're genuinely getting a list that is 1 point over and has no option other than removing a tac marine to be legitimate.

Since i started this i will try and end it (note the word try, i am sure it will go on )

Ok the post was not a troll i had misscaulated my list and it came in at 1501 when it was actualy 1491.

While i was still under the false asumption i thought just for a general feel i would ask what people thougth about being over points .

I have myself only been over points a few times and that was when i started playing

Also i knew if my list was over my normal gaming friends would have had no problem with it .

Since at some point i may want to play other people ,i wanted to know what the general feeling would be regarding this points vs over points issue

Playing friends allows me to know that the points over is deliberate or not .

playing people i dont know would not .

If any of my posts were taken in the wrong way i apologise, but i did feel that i was being made out to be some sort of monster for asking, if people would accept a list 1 point over the limit

In the end we all have our ways of playing be it rules are never broken or leeway be given .

Scott-S6 wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Although, in some playgroups, this is considered perfectly acceptable and both sides can tweak lists based on opponent's army. But, that's a different discussion.

How is it possible for both people to do that? At some point one of you is going to have a finished list while the other is tweaking to match.

Or do you show lists, both go away and tweak and then show lists again?

Well, you typically don't get to see lists, but do know what army you're going against. So, you can tweak your Guard army knowing you're against Demons, but you won't know exactly what choices will be showing up.

ph34r wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:In a friendly game there is no reason to go slightly over either.

If the slight increase in points doesn't have a significant effect on the game, why go over in the first place?

Nobody is bitching. What would you do if I in a calm (perhaps low) voice kindly (perhaps even timidly) pointed out that I would be more comfortable if the lists were not above the point-value? Answer this, please.

Because guess who is the bitching WAAC power gamer now? There is no reason why you request to go over the value has more positive weight attached to it, than my request to please stay within the point-limit.

Actually there is, sometimes it's the difference between an organized, fluffy, themed list, and one that is perfectly balanced except one tac squad has 9 members for some reason.
If you asked me that I would probably say, "why, do you think that my one tac marine which puts me 1 point over will change the course of the game significantly? You would rather me be 15 points under with an unbalanced and unfluffy list than be 1 point over?"
In this case nobody would be a bitching WAAC power gamer, but if one person had to be it, it'd definitely be you.

Or you could have the 10 man squad and drop a weapons upgrade. That point can make a difference. That's the whole point of points (pun intended).

Scott-S6 wrote:

What if the melta bombs are modelled?

Simple, buy another model, and don't give it melta-bombs.

If you can afford to play this hobby, you can afford ONE model (assuming you don't already have one) that would keep you within the point limit.

snakel wrote:

While i was still under the false asumption i thought just for a general feel i would ask what people thougth about being over points .

I have myself only been over points a few times and that was when i started playing

Also i knew if my list was over my normal gaming friends would have had no problem with it .

While the general tone of the thread has been "If you are over, you are cheating" I think it is safe to imply that you would only be "Over" and "Cheating" if you did not INFORM your opponent of the "Overage" ahead of time.

If you do notify your opponent, and they agree that it is alright, you are no longer cheating as you and your opponent have agreed to play the "New" point value game, which would be a "X" point game (where X is that HIGHEST point cost of the two ((or more in the case of 'multi-detachment games)) armies present) so you are well within the rules.

When it comes to tournaments however, the "right to determine game type/points" is removed by the players and is instead something decided by the TO, whom you SHOULD inform BEFORE the tournament to see if the TO would be willing to accommodate (and thus extend the 'new point limit" to all other players in the tournament to ensure fairness) the higher point cost. If they would not be willing to accommodate, then according to the rules, you MUST drop points to be UNDER or AT the specified point limit, any OVER would constitute a violation of the rules.

Otherwise, it would be like if you "Agreed" with your opponent to do a 'spear-head' deployment type (or you rolled it on the table) and then decided that you wanted to deploy in a "Pitched battle" style. If you don't have your opponent's consent(or the TOs, but I doubt the TO would permit this) deploying outside of the current games "Rules for deployment" would be just as much cheating as being 1 (or more) points over the games point limit.

Does that help?

~DAR

All the time you've been spending reading and replying could have been spent rewriting your list to fit the agreed on point limit, as your opponent(s) already did. What makes you so special? Did you get Special Dispensation from Games Workshop?

For friendly games I allow a slight overage of points, even if I labored to be at or under the set limit. Of course my usual opponents are just as happy to let me be over occasionally. IMO the determining factor of a game is not the points limit but the fun involved. YMMV.

The only time I think this is acceptable is if you're at your club or FLGS, and someone asks for a pick up game, to start in the next 10 minutes, at a points level you don't usually play or when you don't have your usual list there.

In any other situation, you've had more than enough time to calculate everything, add it up, etc. As people have already said; it is rarely a single one point upgrade. It could be the difference between fielding 3 squads of troops or two; it could be the difference between a lascannon and a mortar, or a razorback to a landraider, between having toxin sacs or not.

snakel wrote:1 Tournements were not mentioned since i thought it was obvious they were played to win and not really for fun (dont tell me there are for fun they may be fun, put the be all and end all is winning )

Nor were they specifically excluded. Specifying the situation goes a long way in people being able to gauge their response, but since this is YMDC and not just the discussion forum, you're going to get arguments based on RAW, which says that 1501 in a 1500 point game is over points and against the rules.

2 Its not about being able to count since stating my list is 1501 or 1490 would suggest i could count

I'll try to put this in a way that isn't flaming... it's not about counting, it's about being able to add several numbers together accurately. We all make mistakes once in a while, but it helps to double-check your math sometimes.

3 Its about playing a game for fun and accepting the odd point here and there instead of a flat no your cheating

Methinks you missed the point: If you're over, it's not about expecting the other player to bend over and take it. The fact of the matter is that, RAW, it's cheating, and your opponent is well within his rights to tell you to trim it.

4 As for moving 8" and 6" that is cheating with intent , to say hey my list is 1505pts not 1500 that ok or do you want me to lose somthing ? with you saying nah its no biggy , is not since i or my oponent was happy to accept it

Try this at a tourney, and you'll be asked to trim it or GTFO, if you're lucky. If it's a friendly game, you and your opponent are free to renegotiate the terms of the game to your heart's content, but any TO worth his salt would certainly raise hell about it.

5 if it was all the time and they could never hit the limit then, yes you would say at some point hey come on you,ve had your leeway now your pushing it

So where's the line? I'm not saying I would have an issue with it, as I've been sure to clear everything with my opponent beforehand. Extra points are not generally a problem in a casual setting with people you know if you already know they'll be cool with it, but assuming that you'll be allowed to do so with everyone is bound to earn you a bad rep in your local spot to play.

Ok to the original post it was asking what people feelings were regarding this and from the answers i got ,it was clear most people are unable to give any slack suggesting that they cant play the game when they think they might lose due to an extra melta and what not .

Wrong forum if you think you're gonna get any touchy-feely responses to a subjective, possibly hypothetical question. YMDC is about hard rules interpretations, not soft, ambiguous points about the ethical state of the game. A 1500 point game is a game played at a value of 1500 points or less. Whatever you close negotiations with your opponent for is a different story, but that's a discussion for another thread in another forum.

I make my lists and like i said 99% they hit the target on the odd few times they dont i would be happy drop somthing if It caused trouble but i would also not have a problem with somone being over

Again, this is a point of negotiation with your opponent. If you think these are stringent, try WM tournies, where you have to be at no less than -1 to the max limit and no more than +0 over, but since you're not a competitive player (nor am I, I don't play tournies, i just run them), you don't really have much to worry about, since you can negotiate your game for as long as you like before starting.

Maybe its me but i was thinking the general opinion would be sure as long as it was not all the time 1 point no biggy but instead it was a flat no 1500 =1500 not 1501

Again, wrong forum for touchy-feely judgement calls. YMDC is the home of strict RAW translations on Dakka.

This is a forum not a live chat ,you can only read what is written and the replies were worded in a way as to say never, oh no you can do that , or hey your cheating

because, in order, those responses are correct, merely conditional, assuming you've renegotiated to a points limit outside of the aforementioned 1500, and correct once more.

But still i love a good argument everynow and then and this has been a good one so thanks all for your input and however you view it, it only matters if the people you play view it differently

Except this is YMDC... how you view it can, in many cases, be contrary to how it's actually meant to be played.

Mentat wrote:Downgrade a meltagun to a flamer.

Zero effort answer, 1/10 points

BearersOfSalvation wrote:I would like for you to post a list where this happens in the Army List forum.

It doesn't have to be marines. It doesn't have to be all units with nice even points costs. There could be a list where it just isn't the same without that 1 point over. Maybe it's a mech guard list with all full squads with matching wargear, that needs the 1 point for the last chimera, with no frivilous upgrades. It could be any number of things, but I think it is quite obvious that the guy saying "no i will not play you you are 1 point over in a 2000 point game" is quite clearly a dick. I wouldn't play against that guy, points over or not. It's just a kind of "would I enjoy actually hanging out with you/having a conversation with you" thing. If you are going to be a douchebag over an army being overcosted 0.05%, I don't want to associate with you anyway.

I think the guy who is trying to go over points and is making a lame excuse about a 'fluffy, themed' list is clearly the WAAC guy. If the theme of your list is 'be one point over', or your fluff is made up just to let you take a specific list, your opponent is not the one being unreasonable. I don't see how you're genuinely getting a list that is 1 point over and has no option other than removing a tac marine to be legitimate.

See above and understand why you are wrong.

don_mondo wrote:Or you could have the 10 man squad and drop a weapons upgrade. That point can make a difference. That's the whole point of points (pun intended).

See above to be directed to see further above.

ph34r wrote:
It doesn't have to be marines. It doesn't have to be all units with nice even points costs. There could be a list where it just isn't the same without that 1 point over. Maybe it's a mech guard list with all full squads with matching wargear, that needs the 1 point for the last chimera, with no frivilous upgrades. It could be any number of things,

From a 3rd party perspective it sounds to me like you are saying

"What if you are too OCD to allow one of your squads to not have matching wargear (to be under, instead of over in points) but not OCD enough to stay within the point limit"

Just sayin...

ph34r wrote:It doesn't have to be marines. It doesn't have to be all units with nice even points costs.

It does have to be marines, because you talked about dropping "a tactical marine". Armies other than marines don't have "tactical marines", except maybe for DH and WH allies, but they have lots of stuff that costs less than 16 points. Don't use an example then try to say 'oh, well it's not about the thing I talked about' - you picked the example, not me. It's pretty telling that a little investigation into your example shows that it could never happen

There could be a list where it just isn't the same without that 1 point over. Maybe it's a mech guard list with all full squads with matching wargear, that needs the 1 point for the last chimera, with no frivilous upgrades.

The point of a points limit is that you don't always get to have everything you want; if you can't build the army that you want on the points list given, then modify your army to fit it. Most adults understand that in life you sometimes make choices and can't get everything you want. And as I thought, it's about having efficient units with 'no frivilous upgrades', it's not about fitting into the background - which isn't really suprising, because there's no background in 40k that is so tight that an entire list could have no single piece of wargear that could be downgraded. It's very telling that you changed from a 'fluffy, themed list' to 'a list spamming lots of identical units with an effective makeup', something which is regarded as WAAC behaviour in every comp scoring system I've seen.

It could be any number of things, but I think it is quite obvious that the guy saying "no i will not play you you are 1 point over in a 2000 point game" is quite clearly a dick. I wouldn't play against that guy, points over or not. It's just a kind of "would I enjoy actually hanging out with you/having a conversation with you" thing. If you are going to be a douchebag over an army being overcosted 0.05%, I don't want to associate with you anyway.

I think it's obvious that the guy saying "I know we agreed to a set of rules, but I'm going to break them because I want this stuff even though I could easily follow them, but you're a dick if you want the game to be fair" is quite clearly a dick, and hypocritical at that. I don't like playing against people who try to ignore the rules but paint the guy who follows the rules as a terrible person, especially since (as we've seen from people posting in this thread) they often don't give others the same consideration. Insisting that you get to break the rules because you want to spam identical units is being a douchbag, the guy who had to cut out something he wanted from his list to fit the points limit and wants you to do the same isn't.

I'd much rather play against an honest WAAC player than a guy who plays like a WAAC but also tries to get exemptions from the rules, and accuses the other guy of being "a dick" and "a doucebag" for expecting you to do what you agreed to do. It's pretty telling that all of the 'dick', 'douchebag', and 'TFG' labels are starting off from the 'I want this, let me have it or you're a bad person' crowd.

ph34r wrote:

Mentat wrote:Downgrade a meltagun to a flamer.

Zero effort answer, 1/10 points

And thats exactly my point. It takes very little effort to bring your points equal or below the actual points limit.

And an extra meltagun instead of a flamer can make all the difference.

Until recently I primarily played pure Deathwing, and with certain builds I would be 10 or even 15 points under. I could go 5 points over and have twin linked lascannons on one of my dreads instead of another assault cannon. 5 points over in that case would make a significant difference in my army, which has very few options for good AT.

In my local gaming group, nobody shows up with a list over the points limit, even in friendly games. I can't remember the last time it happened. I don't really care about someone being a couple of points over from the perspective of winning/losing a game. It's just rude to show up with an over pointed list and then force the other player to have to call you on it. Treating him like he is being a dick about it makes it twice as bad. If you asked me "I'm 3 points over, do you mind" I wouldn't mind unless you did it every time (or most of the time) I played you. But if you are showing up more than on the rare occasion with an overpointed list, giving a weak justification (fluff), and throwing a fit if someone calls you on it, then you are just being TFG .

ph34r wrote:

Mentat wrote:Downgrade a meltagun to a flamer.

Zero effort answer, 1/10 points

Yup, it makes sense, is a simple solution, and paves the way to resolution.

ph34r wrote:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:I would like for you to post a list where this happens in the Army List forum.

It doesn't have to be marines. It doesn't have to be all units with nice even points costs. There could be a list where it just isn't the same without that 1 point over. Maybe it's a mech guard list with all full squads with matching wargear, that needs the 1 point for the last chimera, with no frivilous upgrades. It could be any number of things, but I think it is quite obvious that the guy saying "no i will not play you you are 1 point over in a 2000 point game" is quite clearly a dick. I wouldn't play against that guy, points over or not. It's just a kind of "would I enjoy actually hanging out with you/having a conversation with you" thing. If you are going to be a douchebag over an army being overcosted 0.05%, I don't want to associate with you anyway.

It should be marines, because that is your example, and like it or not, the majority of players are playing space marines. Here is why it matters: at 9 marines, you have 9 marines, but at 10 marines, you now have a squad capable of getting a free flamer and a free HB, ML, or MM. Not to mention the ability to combat squad. Amazing what all that insignificant 1 point will do. Also, mech guard will almost never be over by 1 point either. The best chance you'd have that I can think of is either tossing an strange number of storm troopers out there, or adding a bolt pistol/bolter, but even then, that would put you 2 points over. If you're going to allow 2 points, why not slippery slope it and say 5?

EDIT: As a matter of integrity, I feel I should mention that, after checking, you could get just one point over due to stormtroopers.

Poking holes in specific examples aside, it's a question of good faith. We've gathered together and we're attempting to play a game. We've agreed to a number of points and the set of rules. We've discussed how we're handling house-ruleable situations. We have a social contract. There are expectations of how each other will act and respond. We exchange lists, and now all of a sudden I witness that you've violated the first term of that contract before we've even began. Now granted, it was a minor slight. Perhaps even an honest oversight, but you've already started out disregarding the conditions by which we've conceded to playing this game. 'Now,' one starts to wonder, 'how else is this gentleman going to disregard our contract? Measuring 6.05" where there was supposed to be 6"? Making up rules? Arguing LOS?' I dislike playing against people who try stuff like that, and I think it's usually human nature to lump it together. And if nothing else, it's simply bad manners.

I thought the battle report was funny in WD from when the Eldar codex was new. In one of the sidebars, Jervis Johnson pointed out the Phil's list was like 3 points over the limit and the statement was that Phil muttered something about "spirit of the game" and the primary rule.

Homer

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

It could be any number of things, but I think it is quite obvious that the guy saying "no i will not play you you are 1 point over in a 2000 point game" is quite clearly a dick. I wouldn't play against that guy, points over or not. It's just a kind of "would I enjoy actually hanging out with you/having a conversation with you" thing. If you are going to be a douchebag over an army being overcosted 0.05%, I don't want to associate with you anyway.

I think it's obvious that the guy saying "I know we agreed to a set of rules, but I'm going to break them because I want this stuff even though I could easily follow them, but you're a dick if you want the game to be fair" is quite clearly a dick, and hypocritical at that. I don't like playing against people who try to ignore the rules but paint the guy who follows the rules as a terrible person, especially since (as we've seen from people posting in this thread) they often don't give others the same consideration. Insisting that you get to break the rules because you want to spam identical units is being a douchbag, the guy who had to cut out something he wanted from his list to fit the points limit and wants you to do the same isn't.

I'd much rather play against an honest WAAC player than a guy who plays like a WAAC but also tries to get exemptions from the rules, and accuses the other guy of being "a dick" and "a doucebag" for expecting you to do what you agreed to do. It's pretty telling that all of the 'dick', 'douchebag', and 'TFG' labels are starting off from the 'I want this, let me have it or you're a bad person' crowd.

It's a GAME. If you think that your "enemy" has an "unfair and unfun advantage" by going 0.05% over the points limit, then I'm sorry. You are a dick. You are a douchebag. Why would 1 more point out of 2000 matter to you? Because uh oh, it's you that is the WAAC.
You think that going 1 point over makes the game unfair? That's laughable. Completely nuts.

For all the points given above: yes, 1 point can be a BIG difference to a list.

ph34r wrote:t's a GAME. If you think that your "enemy" has an "unfair and unfun advantage" by going 0.05% over the points limit, then I'm sorry. You are a dick. You are a douchebag. Why would 1 more point out of 2000 matter to you? Because uh oh, it's you that is the WAAC.
You think that going 1 point over makes the game unfair? That's laughable. Completely nuts.

That cuts both ways. Its a game, yet you feel you need to insult the other player because he won't let you go one point above the agreed upon points value for the game. That's nuts and laughable too.

How is this thread still going on?

If you agree to a point limit, then those are the rules.

Asking to break the point limit is the same as me asking if all my troops can move an extra inch. Its just 1, right? Surely the number 1 is too small to make an impact.

The rules are clear, a "1500 point game" means the maximum total of either army is 1500. There is no point in arguing about the rules here

Etiquette may be a different matter, but really neither this thread nor this forum are the place to argue about etiquette IMO.

This should be locked IMO.

ph34r wrote:It's a GAME. If you think that your "enemy" has an "unfair and unfun advantage" by going 0.05% over the points limit, then I'm sorry. You are a dick. You are a douchebag. Why would 1 more point out of 2000 matter to you? Because uh oh, it's you that is the WAAC.
You think that going 1 point over makes the game unfair? That's laughable. Completely nuts.

Can we please dial the hysteria back a few notches?

As has been pointed out numerous times over this thread, the 'why does 1 point matter?' idea works both ways.


If you have agreed to a 1500-point game, then the limit is 1500 points. The points limit is one of the balancing factors of the game, and exceeding it does alter how the army works. Insisting that your opponent stick to that limit no more makes you a 'waac' player than insisting that your opponent let you break it.

Discussion is the key here. If you wish to alter the rules of the game, discuss it with your opponent. If you can not reach an agreement on how it should be played, that doesn't automatically make either of you a WAAC player or a douchebag. It just makes you two people with different ideas on how the game should be played.

Woah, whoa, whoa, wths with the attitude?
Well it all depends what that 1 point is attached too.
if its attached to a 1 point upgrade or a 3rd dreadnought (base)

ph34r wrote:It's a GAME.

Absolutely. And a GAME is played by following RULES. And when someone breaks the RULES for personal gain, they're the one being a DICK and DOUCHEBAG, not the person who did follow the rules.

If you think that your "enemy" has an "unfair and unfun advantage" by going 0.05% over the points limit, then I'm sorry. You are a dick. You are a douchebag. Why would 1 more point out of 2000 matter to you? Because uh oh, it's you that is the WAAC.

It is not fun to me if I remove things that I would like to have from my list to meet the points limit and my opponent tries to exempt himself from doing the same. Wanting basic fairness, like both players being subject to the same restrictions, is not WAAC behavior, and certainly is not being a 'dick' or 'douchebag' to anyone who acts like an adult. It doesn't even have anything to do with WINNING the game, just with creating a level playing field. What is WAAC behavior, and really is beyond what's normally meant by WAAC, is trying to get your side (but not the other) exempted from the rules of the game, and especially doing so by insulting the other player and/or throwing a tantrum if they don't let you have the advantage you want.

It's also fascinating that you keep going on and on about how the 1 point is insignificant, yet you're willing to insult people and are clearly getting angry over it. Why not just ditch one upgrade and play slightly under if it's really so insignificant? People don't get furious and call others 'dicks' and 'douchebags' if they really think something is insignificant, your actions simply don't fit your words.

You think that going 1 point over makes the game unfair? That's laughable. Completely nuts.

I think that exempting one player but not the other from following the rules is unfair. How exactly is that 'laughable' or 'completely nuts'? It's practically a dictionary example of 'unfair'. The fact that you're unwilling to give your opponent the advantage you keep calling insignificant, and call the other guy a 'dick' and 'douchebag' for not giving you the advantage is what's laughable - if the points were so insignificant, you'd drop one thing to go slightly under without resorting to name calling.

I agree lock it and i started it

lets all be nice, the whole thing has gone south and lost the plot

It was never about rules lawyers and cheating it was purley ment as a simple would you allow it or not .

The reason you would allow it or not was never a question.

Heres the simple way to see it if you play and allow the odd point over then you most likely play people of the same mind ,if you play with no leeway at all ,and all lists should be exact ,then you will most likely play people of the same mind.

In the end calling anyone anything in this thread is irrelivant since the chances of you playing them are 0.

While i do not agree with many of the opinions in this thread, since i asked the question i accept their view no matter what it is .

For whatever reason you allow it or not you cant expect others to agree with you all the time

So agian thanks all ,this has been a blast but i think its time it ended

snakel wrote:Ok just a question on how you guys see this .

I have a 1500 points BA list but its actualy 1501 pts

So the question is allow me to play or say sorry thats too many points?#

Thanks

Before it gets locked, for anyone referencing this thread in terms of game rules (the point of the forum) let me hopefully clarify a few things.

If you agree on a 1500 point game, and you take a list with 1501 points, you are in violation of the rules.

The only ways you would be able to agree on a 1500 point game and take a list of 1501 (or more) would be if you knew you were in excess and did not tell your opponent, or you did not know that you were over (due to misreading a codex or something) and both instances would still be a violation of the rules ("gnorance of the law is not excuse" and such)

If you told your opponent you were over, and they did not mind, you are no longer playing a 1500 point game, but a X point game (where X is the greatest amount of the two lists) which is entirely within the rules. (However, this may alter the required victory points to obtain a "Moral Victory" if you so play by them)

tl;dr: Tell your opponent when you may be over the previously agreed point limit, no matter how much (big or small), if they "Agree" to allow your overage, they've just "Agreed" to the new point limit, and no rules violation is present. (Tournaments are different. And are entirely based on how the TO wishes to organize things)

~DAR

Fluff really.

If it's fluff you would be playing that army list in all were up come games, if not you made the fluff up to just get that extra point. Becouse if you change your army for the next army you face, you should beable to keep under the points total, so there no need for the extra point or two, becouse its not fluff anymore, it's min-maxing and cheat by going over.

Now if it is albout fluff, and you really need to play that list. Then your really playing 1501 point games and you should let the other guy know ahead of time, so he can change his list if he wants, otherwise your just cheating.

It called RESPECT, or go ahead and show the other guy how little you think of them.

I never make a list to be over, always under or equal to the points limit. With that being said, at my FLGS we mostly play pickup games of whoever with whatever, so pre-made lists don't always work. Then there are people that want to test a certain list and an opponent needs to make one up on the spot. Although I may be strict on myself, for friendly pickup games like that, I'll let a few points slide on my opponent's behalf. If, however, I were to play an arranged point limit game or most certainly in a tournament, I would insist everyone sticks to the points limit. I do realize that allowing just even 1 point over a limit can, and sometimes does, lead to a slippery slope of what else may be allowed for the sake of "fun" but for the most part people in my area don't abuse that leeway. In an ideal world with ideal games and match-ups, there would never be any going over on points. I do not hold other people to the same standard I do to myself with list building, but that's just me.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:....With that being said, at my FLGS we mostly play pickup games of whoever with whatever, so pre-made lists don't always work.

(I realize this is beyond the scope of the original intention of the thread and moving into List Tailoring, but here we go)

I am curious.

Wouldn't a premade list be the very definition of a perfect list in "a pick-up game of whoever with whatever"?

I guess what I am asking is; "do you list-tailor"?

ph34r wrote:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

It could be any number of things, but I think it is quite obvious that the guy saying "no i will not play you you are 1 point over in a 2000 point game" is quite clearly a dick. I wouldn't play against that guy, points over or not. It's just a kind of "would I enjoy actually hanging out with you/having a conversation with you" thing. If you are going to be a douchebag over an army being overcosted 0.05%, I don't want to associate with you anyway.

I think it's obvious that the guy saying "I know we agreed to a set of rules, but I'm going to break them because I want this stuff even though I could easily follow them, but you're a dick if you want the game to be fair" is quite clearly a dick, and hypocritical at that. I don't like playing against people who try to ignore the rules but paint the guy who follows the rules as a terrible person, especially since (as we've seen from people posting in this thread) they often don't give others the same consideration. Insisting that you get to break the rules because you want to spam identical units is being a douchbag, the guy who had to cut out something he wanted from his list to fit the points limit and wants you to do the same isn't.

I'd much rather play against an honest WAAC player than a guy who plays like a WAAC but also tries to get exemptions from the rules, and accuses the other guy of being "a dick" and "a doucebag" for expecting you to do what you agreed to do. It's pretty telling that all of the 'dick', 'douchebag', and 'TFG' labels are starting off from the 'I want this, let me have it or you're a bad person' crowd.

It's a GAME. If you think that your "enemy" has an "unfair and unfun advantage" by going 0.05% over the points limit, then I'm sorry. You are a dick. You are a douchebag. Why would 1 more point out of 2000 matter to you? Because uh oh, it's you that is the WAAC.
You think that going 1 point over makes the game unfair? That's laughable. Completely nuts.

Edited by moderator. Dialing the hysteria back means laying off the personal nonsense and behaving like grown-ups

It is not about the 1 point that puts you over the agreed to limit.

That extra tactical marine that holds up an assault one more turn is the problem. That extra melta gun that gets into 2d6 range is the problem. That extra chimera that contests an objective on the last turn is the problem.

Steelmage99 wrote:

(I realize this is beyond the scope of the original intention of the thread and moving into List Tailoring, but here we go)

I am curious.

Wouldn't a premade list be the very definition of a perfect list in "a pick-up game of whoever with whatever"?

I guess what I am asking is; "do you list-tailor"?

Ah, I see with what I said how it could mean that. No, I do not "list-tailor". What I meant by pick-up games is where two (or more) players don't have a specific list in mind so points are agreed upon and lists made right there and then. It could also mean that one person has a specific points list and someone (like myself) doesn't has any points in mind, so they can be quite flexible in what they play, but not to the point of "list-tailoring". For example, I have a tentative game today, Saturday, with a new player who's just starting out Black Templar. It will be 500 points or whatever he has, whichever is greater. I have no set list in mind to play against him, mostly because I'm going to leave it up to him as to which of my armies I will play. I suppose I may be in the minority in that I do bring most of my collection with me when I go to go play at my FLGS so that not only do I have a choice, but so do my opponents. If given the option, I do not like to know what I'm facing ahead of time so that I cannot make a list to play against one army or another as opposed to a take all comers list. I hope that my rant makes some sense.

I think that the whole "we just made a list at last second so it might be over a few points" is just an excuse.

I don't even take this game that serious and I find myself making lists in my head or on paper in my free time to try out the next time I game. From kill team crap all the way up to next years Ard Boyz. It is the nature of gamers to "listcraft" all the time. Given a situation where a pickup game presents itself at any point value, the vast vast majority of us already have a list built for that point value in our heads.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:I never make a list to be over, always under or equal to the points limit. With that being said, at my FLGS we mostly play pickup games of whoever with whatever, so pre-made lists don't always work. Then there are people that want to test a certain list and an opponent needs to make one up on the spot. Although I may be strict on myself, for friendly pickup games like that, I'll let a few points slide on my opponent's behalf.

I think it's important to note that most of the objections are not to letting points slide on your opponents behalf, it's about demanding your opponent let you play over (if you ask but call the guy a douchebag if he says no, it's a demand). My experience is that the conversation starts with "Hey, I'm 3 points over, do you mind if I keep it?" and I respond "Yeah, that's fine I just put this 5pt piece of wargear back in place". Now, if the guy really considered the points insignificant, he'd say 'cool, lets play'. But instead i get either "Hold on, let me find something worth 2 points to buy" or "Man you are so nitpicky, trying to squeeze any advantage out of the game" - indicating that HE doesn't really consider the points insignificant, and that he's not willing to play under the handicap he gave me.

In my experience, it's ALWAYS someone asking "Hey, I'm a point over, can I run with more points than you" and never "Hey I'm a point over, can we just call it a 1505 game?". The point itself probably doesn't have a lot of effect on the game, but the fact that the person isn't willing to give their opponent a similar or slightly larger advantage but always insists they be the one ahead is simply disrespectful.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:
I think it's important to note that most of the objections are not to letting points slide on your opponents behalf, it's about demanding your opponent let you play over (if you ask but call the guy a douchebag if he says no, it's a demand). My experience is that the conversation starts with "Hey, I'm 3 points over, do you mind if I keep it?" and I respond "Yeah, that's fine I just put this 5pt piece of wargear back in place". Now, if the guy really considered the points insignificant, he'd say 'cool, lets play'. But instead i get either "Hold on, let me find something worth 2 points to buy" or "Man you are so nitpicky, trying to squeeze any advantage out of the game" - indicating that HE doesn't really consider the points insignificant, and that he's not willing to play under the handicap he gave me.

In my experience, it's ALWAYS someone asking "Hey, I'm a point over, can I run with more points than you" and never "Hey I'm a point over, can we just call it a 1505 game?". The point itself probably doesn't have a lot of effect on the game, but the fact that the person isn't willing to give their opponent a similar or slightly larger advantage but always insists they be the one ahead is simply disrespectful.

In regards to this, I cannot think of a single time where the guy over on points has demanded that he be allowed to be over. It is always a question asked and in a polite manner in my experience. If my opponent were to demand to be over points as if it were their God given right to be over, then I would have more of a problem with it on a matter of principle. Rarely have I seen the point level of the game increased to accommodate one player or another. I guess for me it comes more down to manners and simple decency when asking about being over a point limit. I suppose that is the issue I have, people should ask if it is ok to be over, never demand it to be so. I would imagine a player that demanded to be over on points would soon find himself without someone to play with or would accept the fact that they should be equal to or under the agreed upon point limit.

I think it is mostly about the theoretical of the situation, not examples of it in history.

Well, here is one more option.

If you have a list which you feel is awesome, but is 1501, and you don't think you can adjust it one pip, create an additional list that is under 1500. Bring them both. Then, when you go to play with someone, before you even open the bag, explain that you have a great list you want to play, but it's over the point limit. Would you mind, for this game, allowing this list? Obviously, I'll give you a few minutes to allow you to take another 5 points of gear somewhere, too. If not, no problem - I've got another list we can play as a backup.

Remember, you're the one asking for special dispensation, so no getting butthurt if the opponent says no, or even being upset. Of course, the fastest, easiest, and most pragmatic way to handle this would be not to allow it to happen at all.

I give a leighway of 0.1% in games, so in 1000 points, it is 1 point and in 2000 it's two.

Though, I'd prefer it if they were under points.

in tournament it is unacceptable.

I don't think I would allow this, not even in a friendly game. And not just because I'm a jerk.

Every time I try to put together an army list, I always seem to end up having to leave out something that I really wanted because it puts me a few points over. Like I can afford a Land Speeder, but then can't afford to arm it with a multi melta. Then I have to rejiggle my whole list cause I have no use for a HB Land Speeder. I always seem to feel like I'm one unit short of a what I actually want.

If I then turned up to 1500 paint game, to find my opponent had 1501 points, then I think I would be quite annoyed. It's like inviting someone who you know is vegetarian to dinner, and then saying "I hope you don't mind lamb chops?"... What part of 'Don't eat meat' do you not understand? What part of 1500 OR LESS do you not understand?

The only time I would allow this is if it were someone putting together an army list on the spot... For example someone scaling thier 2000 point army down to quickly take part in 1500 point game. If it came up 1501 then I would say "Yup that's close enough, lets play!". But if you've actually gone away and sat down with your codex and put together a list for 1500 point game, then there is really no excuse for being over 1500. I would just have to assume the person was being deliberately obtuse.

I would insist that either my opponent drops some wargear, or we increase the agreed points value of the game to 1510 so that I can get that extra melta and hopefully leave them 9 points behind (which is what they deserve for going over).

@ the OP... If you know your Army is 1501 points then you should fix it.

My response would probably be "Sure. Come to think of it, my sorcerer could use a personal icon anyway."

I wish my friends could listen to you guys.

Every
Single
Game
CANIHAZMOREPOINTSTAHNYOUKTHNX!?

I just realized my friend has been 26 points over in every game we've played against each other in the last two months. sigh. Not that it has made a difference in game play much because he could cut two power weapons and that is that. Hardly game changing. But it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Deuce11 wrote:I just realized my friend has been 26 points over in every game we've played against each other in the last two months. sigh. Not that it has made a difference in game play much because he could cut two power weapons and that is that. Hardly game changing. But it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Was he aware that he was over points? If so, 26 is WAY more than is acceptable, even for the crowd that allows for extra points.

If he wasn't aware and this was just a math error, these things happen when totaling points by hand. I've found myself sometimes summing an army to the wrong total. But, I tend to always end up with extra points in my total, and not missing points.

Anyway, it's always a good idea to double-check your math, and, if you have the time, to double-check your opponents math.

I had problems with math too quite a bit. I remember my first few games was with a list that actually something like 1925 in 2000 point games. This is why I now write my lists on Excel! Saves me the trouble of having to worry about typing a number into a calculator wrong, or just plain failing with basic math.

I don't think there's anything new I can add to this debate....I'll throw my hat in the ring with the people who wouldn't allow it, outside extenuating circumstances. As has been pointed out many many times before, "If being one point over won't change the course of the game, then one point under shouldn't hurt you either, yah?" To me that logic is perfectly sound, and makes absolute sense alongside the many many other arguments presented by this side of the debate.

If I play people who pull this crap with me by going over points, I just say "ok" then grab some nice upgrades that I could use like dozer blades or extra armor.

I had a friend who I used to play with who would say "Ok, im ready. Im like 70 points over though, is that ok?" ARRRGGHHH

scubasteve04 wrote:If I play people who pull this crap with me by going over points, I just say "ok" then grab some nice upgrades that I could use like dozer blades or extra armor.

I had a friend who I used to play with who would say "Ok, im ready. Im like 70 points over though, is that ok?" ARRRGGHHH

Which works just fine for SPESS MEHREENS, but for those of us who play armies that don't have tons of little miniscule upgrades you can add (e.g. Necrons) or whose miniscule upgrades are largely useless (e.g. Tau, Orks) that strategy doesn't work so well.

"Add a meltabomb!" is a fine response if you're playing cheesefactories, but I can't just go and "add a meltabomb," since all comparable upgrades are entirely useless for my armies, or can't just be added to one model.

It doesnt have to be comparable to his overpoints though.

If your playing crons and a guy comes with 1503, add an extra warrior for 18 pts or whatever they are. You get an extra model, and you send the guy a message. Maybe he will learn to count and bring 1500 pts or less next time.

Oh and dont hate on marines lol

Funny!

"Mind if my list is 1 point over?"
"Umm, if I can add one model that sounds fine."
"Umm, that is a monolith!"
"It is just one model, why make an issue?"

kirsanth wrote:Funny!

"Mind if my list is 1 point over?"
"Umm, if I can add one model that sounds fine."
"Umm, that is a monolith!"
"It is just one model, why make an issue?"

Exactly. Teach people not to go over points. I would seriously do this in a game.

scubasteve04 wrote:It doesnt have to be comparable to his overpoints though.

If your playing crons and a guy comes with 1503, add an extra warrior for 18 pts or whatever they are. You get an extra model, and you send the guy a message. Maybe he will learn to count and bring 1500 pts or less next time.

Oh and dont hate on marines lol

What if I've got two units of 20 warriors, and therefore cannot add any more?

What then?

add a light destroyer, or an upgrade to one of your lords.

scubasteve04 wrote:add a light destroyer, or an upgrade to one of your lords.

What if his lords are already at the 100 point limit?

Seriously, it's not hard to make a 1500 list instead of a 1501.

scubasteve04 wrote:add a light destroyer, or an upgrade to one of your lords.

Right. Sure. I bring extra Destroyer models to every game because I expect my opponent to be over his limit by 50 points.

And like Gwar! said, what if my Lord already has 100 points of wargear and a warscythe?

It's a 1500 point game. Bring 1500 points. Don't be a jackass and expect me to compensate for your inability to follow the rules/do basic first-grade arithmetic/observe common courtesy.

SaintHazard wrote:
And like Gwar! said, what if my Lord already has 100 points of wargear and a warscythe?

It's a 1500 point game. Bring 1500 points. Don't be a jackass and expect me to compensate for your inability to follow the rules/do basic first-grade arithmetic/observe common courtesy.

I agree with the hard limit on points. But, if your opponent won't meet that, I'd suggest giving the Lord an extra upgrade and allowing for more than 100pts for him upgrades. After all, if 1502 pts for an army isn't a big deal, 105 pts for Lord upgrades isn't a big deal.

But, this is just evolving into a "If my opponent breaks the rules, how many rules can I break?" discussion. Which is best addressed with "Neither player should break any rules!"

We always play 5 points over max. No matter what the size game, however any five piont or under piece of wargear must be discarded if so.

SaintHazard wrote:Which works just fine for SPESS MEHREENS, but for those of us who play armies that don't have tons of little miniscule upgrades you can add (e.g. Necrons) or whose miniscule upgrades are largely useless (e.g. Tau, Orks) that strategy doesn't work so well.

It's not really good for marines - by the time I've made my list to 1500 points, I've probably gotten everything that I think will be useful around that point value. Tacking melta bombs onto a squad that already has a powerfist or doesn't plan to melee isn't really going to do much for me. 25 points is easily enough to make a major shift in the army, I might now be afford enough speeders to be worthwhile if I ditch this unit I brought because I don't bother with one speeder, but I don't have the speeder models with me because they didn't fit into my earlier list.

I think you should follow kirsanth's suggestion, the 'just 1 more model' idea is a good one.

SaintHazard wrote:

Right. Sure. I bring extra Destroyer models to every game because I expect my opponent to be over his limit by 50 points.

And like Gwar! said, what if my Lord already has 100 points of wargear and a warscythe?

It's a 1500 point game. Bring 1500 points. Don't be a jackass and expect me to compensate for your inability to follow the rules/do basic first-grade arithmetic/observe common courtesy.

Thats not my point. I absolutly hate when people bring lists over points.

I am just saying if you you are running a rigid list like necrons with under or even points, then its insulting if a BA player comes over points. Therefore the BA player should not say anything when the cron player adds a single model or upgrade to go over 1500 by 18-50points. People like that need to learn to craft lists to the proper points limits.

And if its impossible to add something useful, just tell the opposing player to remove an upgrade or model even if it brings them below points. Rules are rules

phantommaster wrote:We always play 5 points over max. No matter what the size game, however any five piont or under piece of wargear must be discarded if so.

So why not just say you play XXX5 point games and be honest?

phantommaster wrote:We always play 5 points over max. No matter what the size game, however any five piont or under piece of wargear must be discarded if so.

And what if someone is 6 points over? are you gonna kick up a fuss over 1 more point? If you are going to draw the line at +5 why not just draw it at +0?

If I played you guys I would always go the full 5 points over whenever possible, because I know that everyone else might do the same.

SmackCakes wrote:

phantommaster wrote:We always play 5 points over max. No matter what the size game, however any five piont or under piece of wargear must be discarded if so.

And what if someone is 6 points over? are you gonna kick up a fuss over 1 more point? If you are going to draw the line at +5 why not just draw it at +0?

If I played you guys I would always go the full 5 points over whenever possible, because I know that everyone else might do the same.

Yep we would kick up a fuss over one point, our GW guy does this for local tournaments and it's stuck ever since, never really thought why.

Follow the rules...doesn't matter what kind of game it is.
There is no mystery of what the rules say: At or Less.

It's real simple; it involves Zero Issues.

When rules are not followed, both sides are made out to look like jerks depending on point of views, but following the rules bypasses all the drama.

Sanctjud wrote:Follow the rules...doesn't matter what kind of game it is.
There is no mystery of what the rules say: At or Less.

It's real simple; it involves Zero Issues.

When rules are not followed, both sides are made out to look like jerks depending on point of views, but following the rules bypasses all the drama.

Amen

In the good old days you could simply give the opponent a free VP to balance.

1 point in 1,500, or 3 in 2,000 is hardly a major advantage.

Of course the game is played to a set limit, so if the opponent says you can't have your extra point, you are kind of stuck.

I'm surprised a TO allowed an entrant to get away with the extra points. Perhaps he beat all his opponents by such a wide margin that it was clear the three points weren't of any significance.

Kilkrazy wrote:1 point in 1,500, or 3 in 2,000 is hardly a major advantage.

Again, this assertion is based on a false assumption.

The false assumption is that that single point stands alone, or represents a miniscule upgrade, but consider this:

Which generally a more competitive unit, a Battlewagon with a Deff Rolla and Big Shoota at 115 points, or a Deff Dread with extra DCCW, Big Shoota, and Armour Plates, at 105 points? Most Ork players who run mech lists will take the BW over the Dread, but it costs an extra 10 points. Say you're going up against a mech IG army, and the Ork player wants to take the BW, but it'd put him 1 point over. That one single point is the difference between a competitive unit against mech IG armies and a mediocre one. That one point is, effectively, a major advantage.

There are numerous examples of how a single point can be the difference between taking that competitive unit you want to take and being forced to take something a little less potent.

Kilkrazy wrote:In the good old days you could simply give the opponent a free VP to balance.

1 point in 1,500, or 3 in 2,000 is hardly a major advantage.

Yeah...I'm thinking VP would probably be an overall better system than KP, just because of the sheer number of ways to mess with killpoints.

But as has been said a lot in this thread: 1 point over doesn't help you significantly, right? So 1 point UNDER shouldn't hurt you significantly either, right? That and Hazard's lovely dissertation above.

Hazard.

Edited.