Ive been branching out from 40k a bit lately and ive noticed alot of systems allow pre measuring, I was wondering why is pre measuring not allowed?

Seems to me it would make a big difference to newer players and I was wondering if a house rule allowing it would affect the game in a negative way?

Personally It dosent really effect me as I seem to have the "knack" for guessing ranges but my in my last game I won simply because my opponent simply didnt allow his troop choices enuff time to walk onto the objectives if he had been able to pre measure he would have known to start running the a turn earlier.

Seems to be a relic from the Guess Range rules that affect most ordance weapons, players had to guess how many inches and then place the template that far.

Not allowing premeasuring is not that uncommon in minature games. Its just another skill that you need to develope, or if you lack this skill you have to take other actions to negate its effects.

From a rules standpoint, you may not pre-measure because there are rules and wargear that allow you to pre-measure. Allowing pre-measuring without these items would not only put people who paid for them at a disadvantage, but would also change the game significantly. It's not a throwback, it's a good rule that more tabletop games should utilize.

From a fluff standpoint, simply because your troops do not have your godlike knowledge of the battlefield. They can't simply look over yonder hill and tell instantly that the enemy is two hundred yards away, etc. Trained soldiers will be able to approximate distances like this, but that's why you're allowed to "eye" the battlefield and use reference points without ever actually using a measuring tape. Only the soldiers with the proper wargear (targeters and the like) will be able to tell exactly how far away a given point is, and therefore may pre-measure.

I disagree that its a "good rulee" - while seeing the world in 6" increments is certainly a skill, i dont think it is one that is necessary for a good war game.

WHFB has finally gotten rid of it, so no doubt 6th ed will as well.

Additionally - I can only think of Targetters that allowed a premeasure?

nosferatu1001 wrote:I disagree that its a "good rulee" - while seeing the world in 6" increments is certainly a skill, i dont think it is one that is necessary for a good war game.

WHFB has finally gotten rid of it, so no doubt 6th ed will as well.

Additionally - I can only think of Targetters that allowed a premeasure?

Agree to disagree on the first point. I take pride in my ability to approximate distances without a measuring implement.

Also, Flash Gitz have Gitfindas, which allow them to pre-measure.

I do like the no pre-measuring rule. Although, I have been screwed by it or screwed over my opponent quite a few times. It speeds up the game quite a bit, because you don't end up with situations where everyone needs to make sure they're exactly 13" away with every model so that the opponent can't assault them (or 19" if against fleet or other faster troops).

That being said, if you are brand new to the game, it is nice to add a house rule occasionally that allows pre-measuring. This lets you experience some of the higher-level tactical decisions going on without most of the game relying on how good you are at guessing distances. Just don't do it so often you become dependent on it.

Because Pre-measuring turns the game into a bore.

If I wanted to play maths, I would play Chess.

The human Error element adds another level of skill to 40k that is vital for it to be enjoyable.

Human Error + Random Dice Chance = Unforeseen Consequences

Catyrpelius wrote:Its just another skill that you need to develope, or if you lack this skill

Yeah... this isn't really a skill, considering that biological differences can provide an advantage between two intellectually equivalent opponents.

This is not a game of physical prowess, but one of MENTAL prowess. While I have perfect eyesight, I don't think it's fair to begrudge someone else for not having it.

I hope no pre-measuring goes the way of the dodo and they adopt the WFB "you may always pre-measure" rule.

Catyrpelius wrote:Not allowing premeasuring is not that uncommon in minature games. Its just another skill that you need to develope, or if you lack this skill you have to take other actions to negate its effects.

Epic plays marvelously with premeasuring.

And in FB the charge range and all other range are more random and every unit moves differently. You can still "cheat" and leave unit so that the opponent cant reach you or something, but i honestly think you should stop playing with such guys. I miss guess blasts tho for fb.

Gwar! wrote:Because Pre-measuring turns the game into a bore.

If I wanted to play maths, I would play Chess.

The human Error element adds another level of skill to 40k that is vital for it to be enjoyable.

QFT. You can already use simple math to calculate distances I.E.:

We deployed 36" apart, he moved 6" forward & ran 2" forward again. I moved 5" diagonally so I can safely assume that we are now (36-8-3) or about 25" away, the 3 was aproximated from the diagonal movement. Now I make a decision whether I think I am just inside or just outside my weapons firing range & that is where tactics come in hand. Is it better to try to shoot them or seek a target I know I can hit?

Dorian has it spot on; that's what you're supposed to be doing the whole time.

M.

"After all, our warriors are all led by experienced campaigners and we can assume that they can accurately judge the range of their weapons"

Yet 40,000 years later with all that hardware, they need range finders.

/boggle

Catyrpelius wrote:Not allowing premeasuring is not that uncommon in minature games. Its just another skill that you need to develope, or if you lack this skill you have to take other actions to negate its effects.

It is fairly uncommon, in my experience.

I have played a lot of different games. Most of them don't mention it either way, but since you have to measure so many things it is just accepted that you can measure range before you decide to shoot. To be fair, in a lot of games there is often only one target you can shoot anyway.

As far as I can remember, DBA specifically says you can measure any distance at any time.

I think it is in 40K because of the old Guess Range weapons and the general toy soldier atmosphere -- I mean, the game isn't trying to be a simulation so the guessing aspect adds to the fun.

kirsanth wrote:"After all, our warriors are all led by experienced campaigners and we can assume that they can accurately judge the range of their weapons"

Yet 40,000 years later with all that hardware, they need range finders.

/boggle

Well, judging how far an enemy unit is requires thinking. And, thinking can lead to having your own thoughts... Once you're thinking for yourself, you can think impure thoughts. And that, is HERESY!!!! Burn the witch!!!!

Grakmar wrote:Well, judging how far an enemy unit is requires thinking. And, thinking can lead to having your own thoughts... Once you're thinking for yourself, you can think impure thoughts. And that, is HERESY!!!! Burn the witch!!!!

That explains the scope on Sororitas flamers. . .where did that link go?

I miss playing my fantasy empire army from... what was that, 5th or 6th edition? Just tearing people apart with my cannons was so much fun. Now that took actual skills.

Not premeasuring was fine once upon a time.

Now that I am recovering from a serious head injury, I have zero ability to estimate the distances and I can't math it out either (I need to color code my dice to help me count them out these days.) The ability to premeasure would certainly level the playing playing field for me, in any case.

I see one main reason for and one main reason against premeasuring:

For: Makes the game more about decisions. You know before you commit what this or thats range is, so its more about making the correct decision and hoping your dice hold out.

Against: Rules would have to change to replace the risk of misjudging a distance. AKA, charge distance and perhaps even shooting distance would have to have a random component, such as 2d6+1 pick the highest for charge distance, 1 less d6 for going through cover. Without this random component the current game balance would shift slightly but in a very exploitable way.

As an aside, does anyone know if premeasuring has directly led to players moving their units more accurately? In 40k, I have seen good players who would never cheat move an extra 3 inches total by the end of turn 2 by being a little off in deployment, a little off with their vehicles first move straight ahead 12, and a little more off on the second move 12 forward. The evidence is easy to see, as the vehicle in question was only 9 inches away from the opposite board edge by turn 2's end, but the player in question could not pinpoint where exactly they went wrong.

Well they took it out for WHFB and I think it turned out just fine. I haven't seen any threads about how WHFB has turned into a mechanical bore, and the Fantasy players in my area keep going on about as a whole the game is more tactical and balanced than ever before (though the PS+Lvl 6 spell debate is carrying on quite energetically).

The key thing here is while they took out pre-measuring, they added other mechanics to stop it from tuning into a mathematical exercise, random charge distance being one. Great you measured everything to within 0.1, you still have to play the odds to get off your dual flank trap.

It's really just for speed of play. In WHFB you've got blocks of troops, not many of them will have ranged weapons, and they all stand in rank and file. Measuring is quick and easy.

In 40K you've got whole armies with ranged weapons, and they're deployed in loose formations, so that often you'd have to measure half or more of the models to know which are and which aren't in range. If someone wanted to be really certain about his ranges, you could see him spending ten minutes or more measuring ranges each turn.

sebster wrote:
In 40K you've got whole armies with ranged weapons, and they're deployed in loose formations, so that often you'd have to measure half or more of the models to know which are and which aren't in range. If someone wanted to be really certain about his ranges, you could see him spending ten minutes or more measuring ranges each turn.

This, plus the human error aspect makes it a lot more fun. Pre-measuring would "dumb down" the game for me. And, although I don't collect fantasy, most fantasy players that I know at our FLGS were quite upset at the introduction of premeasuring.

In WHFB guess-range is out, because random charge range is in. If 40k removes flat movement distance, then i'm all for removing the no pre-measuring.

kirsanth wrote:That explains the scope on Sororitas flamers. . .where did that link go?

Here you go.

I had been talking about how terrible guess range arty is for a game mechanic for many a year. They removed it from 40k, then from BFG, and now from WFB. However, the last to eliminate guess range then went to premeasuring, skiping the middle step all together. Thus I think the implimentation in fantasy is less than perfect--take cannons for example. You can simply say '7 inches in front of your base', then roll a dice for distance and bounce. The models ballistic skill has no bearing. In 40k, they used BS to reduce the scatter at least. Fantasy could have easily adopted such a system, but missed the boat.

As for how 40k would play with random charge distance, we actually have a really good set of play experience already thanks to difficult terrain rolls. Anyone familiar with rolling 2 inches to charge an enemy 3 inches away in 40k gets the gist of how random charge distances would play out.

DevianID wrote:I had been talking about how terrible guess range arty is for a game mechanic for many a year. They removed it from 40k, then from BFG, and now from WFB.

Wait... They removed guess weapons in 40k? How have I missed this? And, more importantly, how do my guess range weapons work now?

Grakmar wrote:

DevianID wrote:I had been talking about how terrible guess range arty is for a game mechanic for many a year. They removed it from 40k, then from BFG, and now from WFB.

Wait... They removed guess weapons in 40k? How have I missed this? And, more importantly, how do my guess range weapons work now?

...very clearly stated in the rulebook, under the entry for Barrage Weapons.

Good question, considering they've been gone for the better part of a decade.

Bookwrack wrote:Good question, considering they've been gone for the better part of a decade.

They were around in 4th. So they were removed in 2008.

Two years is the better part of a decade?

My take on pre-measuring:

I don't have any problem with not doing it, I can guess pretty well these days.

When I teach newer players, it is a major and frustrating hurdle for them to overcome.

Anything that makes it harder for new players to enjoy the game means a chance that that player won't continue in the hobby, or will lower his involvement. (like sticking to the painting and modeling aspect).

So, no pre-measure gives an advantage to vets, and a disadvantage to new players. By that alone I am inclined to support the removal of that rule. Vets already have huge advantages (at least they should) in model collection, play experience, and tactical techniques. Why should they get such a minor/major boost just because their spacial ability is more honed?

SaintHazard wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:Good question, considering they've been gone for the better part of a decade.

They were around in 4th. So they were removed in 2008.

Two years is the better part of a decade?

Errm... No? Guess Range has been gone since 3rd ed. They were not in 4th. What you are thinking of is the designation for Barrage Weapons, which used to be a "G" before the Range (even in 4th). You didn't guess the range for them in 4th, it was the same mechanic that we use now for all Blasts.

Gwar! wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:Good question, considering they've been gone for the better part of a decade.

They were around in 4th. So they were removed in 2008.

Two years is the better part of a decade?

Errm... No? Guess Range has been gone since 3rd ed. They were not in 4th. What you are thinking of is the designation for Barrage Weapons, which used to be a "G" before the Range (even in 4th). You didn't guess the range for them in 4th, it was the same mechanic that we use now for all Blasts.

I know that.

I was checking to make sure you were paying attention.

You have passed the test.

/shifty glances

Gwar! wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:Good question, considering they've been gone for the better part of a decade.

They were around in 4th. So they were removed in 2008.

Two years is the better part of a decade?

Errm... No? Guess Range has been gone since 3rd ed. They were not in 4th. What you are thinking of is the designation for Barrage Weapons, which used to be a "G" before the Range (even in 4th). You didn't guess the range for them in 4th, it was the same mechanic that we use now for all Blasts.

*sigh* They should add a page or two at the beginning of the BRB saying: "ATTENTION: The following things have been radically changed from previous addition". Otherwise, I just assume there was a rule I overlooked rather than the complete removal of a mechanic.

Anyway, thanks for pointing this out! Maybe it's time to dust off my Dark Reapers and D-Cannons.

Emperors Faithful wrote:This, plus the human error aspect makes it a lot more fun. Pre-measuring would "dumb down" the game for me. And, although I don't collect fantasy, most fantasy players that I know at our FLGS were quite upset at the introduction of premeasuring.

There's no dumbing down, it has nothing to do with intelligence to begin with.

AlexHolker wrote:

kirsanth wrote:That explains the scope on Sororitas flamers. . .where did that link go?

Here you go.

Excellent, thank you.



I think not being allowed to measure is annoying, but it is because I am not very good at it.
I would prefer random ranges, but am fine with things the way they are. It would not change much for me, I miss about as many shots/charges as I think dice would cause.

That said, I do think it is a silly, gamey mechanic and the fantasy rulebook line regarding measuring that I quoted makes it quite blatantly so.

"3 year veteran Skirmisher x can eyeball that a guy is 47.34 feet away and his bow only reaches 47 feet so does not fire"

"300 year veteran Space Marine x thinks that a guy might hopefully be within range of his bolter so wastes a few shots checking and alerting the enemy to his exact range and location"

Ordo Dakka wrote:In WHFB guess-range is out, because random charge range is in. If 40k removes flat movement distance, then i'm all for removing the no pre-measuring.

QFT. This is why WHFB hasn't become a mechanical bore (I would imagine, as I don't play). There's still risk involved. (Although the risk is much more in the hands of dice than with an overzealous opponent being lured into a charge that they can't quite make).

Allowing premeasuring would be fine if they adjusted the move/charge system to compensate.

SaintHazard wrote:From a rules standpoint, you may not pre-measure because there are rules and wargear that allow you to pre-measure. Allowing pre-measuring without these items would not only put people who paid for them at a disadvantage, but would also change the game significantly. It's not a throwback, it's a good rule that more tabletop games should utilize.

Those objections are a bit forced. If pre-measure became the rule, people simply wouldn't take that equipment. And as for changing the game, meh, that's what happens every edition.

As someone else pointed out, random charge ranges in WHFB do mitigate the effects of pre-measure somewhat. Then again, running in 40k also keeps assault units from being kited too badly by shooting units.

Okay.

Then I object to pre-measuring because that's not how it's done now, and I fear change.

SaintHazard wrote:Okay.

Then I object to pre-measuring because that's not how it's done now, and I fear change.

CHANGE IS BAD!

Except when it is good.

Emperors Faithful wrote:This, plus the human error aspect makes it a lot more fun. Pre-measuring would "dumb down" the game for me. And, although I don't collect fantasy, most fantasy players that I know at our FLGS were quite upset at the introduction of premeasuring.

I have to admit, I don't love premeasuring. The old edition was fiddly, and I think it's good that a person's ability to operate war machines is now based on his ability to position his batteries and prioritise targets, not his ability to guess the distance between models. Similarly, charging without premeasuring, when coupled with wheeling to begin the charge then wheeling to face the enemy produced some nightmare results - I'm more than a little happy to see that replaced with the simple 'if distance between units is enough then charge'.

But both of those rules could have been fixed without going to complete pre-measuring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:Okay.

Then I object to pre-measuring because that's not how it's done now, and I fear change.

That's way too honest a way to approach talking about a rules change.

You need to declare that you've been in the hobby for years, that you remember back when it was complex, sophisticated game that rewarded tactical play, and that everything GW has done since those halycon days has dumbed the game down. Then you need to wander off into a rant about pricing, the UN or how long it's been since McDonalds made the McRoma, before winding up with a threat that the proposed rule was ever adopted you'd quit the hobby once and for all.

kirsanth wrote:"After all, our warriors are all led by experienced campaigners and we can assume that they can accurately judge the range of their weapons"

Yet 40,000 years later with all that hardware, they need range finders.

/boggle

More like /thread.

I like pre-measuring, if only for removing cheating and fudging during movement/charges, etc.

Catyrpelius wrote:Not allowing premeasuring is not that uncommon in minature games. Its just another skill that you need to develope, or if you lack this skill you have to take other actions to negate its effects.

Exactly. One of the guys in our local 40k group is a sniper when it comes to guessing ranges. Now that guess weapons, like Whirlwinds, are not currently used, he is still a beast when it comes to figuring out exactly how far things are from each other. It's a skill he probably developed being a mechanic!

This thread was probably started by someone who constantly gets nerfed by not deploying and maneuvering properly, and gets busted trying to shoot or charge a tenth of an inch outside of range...

Can I have a clear definition of what people believe pre-measuring is?

But the question still stands, with pre-measuring would you actually help remove cheating/fudging?

Like I said earlier, I have seen good players who dont cheat make compound movement errors that result in several extra inches of movement. Heck I am sure I have done it. Premeasuring wouldnt change this, as we usually have our tape measure extended as we move anyway.

For me, it would be measuring before declaring your intention to shoot, move, or charge and where you intend to do so.

I have played against kids who have tried to check the range of their weapons to find out what they have the range to hit. We have told them it was not allowed and they stopped.

Sometimes, you just have to risk the shot. I have misplayed and been in a position where premeasuring a move or whatever would have prevented that, but that's the nature of the game.

Long story short: declare, then measure. If you come up short, well, that's the chance you take...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DevianID wrote:But the question still stands, with pre-measuring would you actually help remove cheating/fudging?

Like I said earlier, I have seen good players who dont cheat make compound movement errors that result in several extra inches of movement. Heck I am sure I have done it. Premeasuring wouldnt change this, as we usually have our tape measure extended as we move anyway.

I don't think it encourages cheating, but it is cheesy to check all your ranges and work from there. It also wastes a lot of time, especially with a heavily shooty army.

In Warhammer FANTASY archers are allowed to measure the distance any time they want to. You can always measure distances.

I guess all those people who really enjoy fantasy must be wrong and the game lacks interesting situations or skill somehow?

Somehow 40,000 years in the future, people with high tech scopes and lascannons and tanks and BINOCULARS (points to imperial guard squad) cannot tell distance?

well consider the proportion of shooting units in Fantasy... and the fact that the game is being overrun by kids who min-max and mathhammer their games, 6th edition might as well give them one more thing to do while playing...

I have no Depth perception, so I play Tau. When you can shoot people on thier side of the Board, you don't need to measure.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:This, plus the human error aspect makes it a lot more fun. Pre-measuring would "dumb down" the game for me. And, although I don't collect fantasy, most fantasy players that I know at our FLGS were quite upset at the introduction of premeasuring.

There's no dumbing down, it has nothing to do with intelligence to begin with.

Yeah, it kind of did.

Ordo Dakka wrote:Can I have a clear definition of what people believe pre-measuring is?

Pre-measuring is, to me, being able to take any sort of measurement you like at any point in the game, like checking distance between yourself and enemy units in your movement phase.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:This, plus the human error aspect makes it a lot more fun. Pre-measuring would "dumb down" the game for me. And, although I don't collect fantasy, most fantasy players that I know at our FLGS were quite upset at the introduction of premeasuring.

There's no dumbing down, it has nothing to do with intelligence to begin with.

Yeah, it kind of did.

Your list of talents must be quite sparse if you cling to visual estimates of 6" intervals as your claim to intelligence.

Terminus wrote:
Your list of talents must be quite sparse if you cling to visual estimates of 6" intervals as your claim to intelligence.

No, in fact I am very poor at guessing correct range. But, it's the very fact that I have to rely on guesses (however educated they might be). It's good to be throw out of your depth, to not be entirely sure if that Trygon is more than 18" away, praying that it fails on fleet. Likewise, it's funner when you have to think "should I stand here and go full range, or are those fellows close enough to risk moving forward and getting the Rapid Fire."

I don't know, plenty of games allow pre-measuring and work just fine (Epic, Flames of War, et. al.).

And I'm not exactly sure how guessing at the right answer is somehow more cerebral than making fully-informed decisions?

Terminus wrote:I don't know, plenty of games allow pre-measuring and work just fine (Epic, Flames of War, et. al.).

And I don't play those. Why should I care?

And I'm not exactly sure how guessing at the right answer is somehow more cerebral than making fully-informed decisions?

Cerebral? I'm not saying you need extra bloody IQ points if you have to guess, but it does add another element into the gameplay. "Have they been moving a steady 6 inches per turn? They were in range with their boltguns, my vehichle should be able to move this far and still fire the heavy flamer." By just 'knowing' and having all the info, you don't have to put any of the pieces together becuase someone has just handed you the thing on a silver platter. Takes the fun out of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then again, a friend of mine who played Empire always boasted (to some degree) about his "skill" in guessing the correct range for his cannons.

I'd also like to see pre-measuring partially removed. When I beat an opponent, I'd like it to be because my strategy and tactics was superior to his/hers, not because my opponent is simply poor at eyeballing 6". Other games that I have played allow measuring at all times, and it simply did not affect gameplay for better or worse.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Cerebral? I'm not saying you need extra bloody IQ points if you have to guess, but it does add another element into the gameplay.

Yes, but it's neither a particularly fun not particularly sensible element. It's removal would actually make gameplay more fun, I think. Fluffwise, it's just completely strange.

I find it hard to believe Necrons don't know how far away something is at all times, or that Chaos Terminators - veterans of nonstop war for literally centuries - don't have a good eye for how far they can shoot, something most first year conscript soldiers have a good handle on.

The only exception I'd like to see for no-measuring-allowed is for drop pods/deep striking/etc etc. Those should be inherently riskier then anything else.

Especially given, fluffwise, bolter link information gives you the exact range at which targets are viable. Many BL novels state this piece of info. It's part of the many details about the environment supplied by the helm.

In all the games i've played that we've allowed premesuring it hasn't affected the game much at all....

Well, the obvious reason it's there is the battlefield isn't presighted. There aren't little red flags every 10 meters, and even the best shooter in the heat of combat will misjudge how far away something is unless he's taken the time to take a direct measurement with some fancy thingy.

But yes, I'm all for allowing premeasuring if you change the rules to make distance shooting, and charge distance a bit more random. BUt then you'd have to rework a lot more, as well as remember that alot of the codexes will still be built around the old 'no pre-measuring' rules.

Just out of curiosity, how did WHFB solve this problem with older Army Books?

They didnt need to. Fewer unique machines so common rules for stone throwers etc can be changed in one go. Still have some oddities (some stone thrower alike machines are still hella powerful, like the Bret trebuchet) but as it was core rules changes not much needed changing on the army book side.

Biggest change was stone throwers no longer disallowing armour saves, and dropping to S3 basic meaning while you get more hits (they got rid of partials as well) you wound less often than previously. Murders cheap troops, less effective against Chaos Warriors.

Ahhh, then I see a major problem when it comes to translating pre-measuring into 40k. Most weapons in 40k being unique to each faction, they can't just change the core rulebook and everyone's happy.

THen again, I kinda like not pre-measuring. I think for new players you can cut them some slack on not pre-measuring, maybe have them guess whether or not they're in range, and them let them measure? Just so they begin to get the skills down? We can't change the core rules around to make everyone happy, unfortunately...

The current system is wide open to abuse. You can't check behind your opponent, so movement fudges occur on a regular basis.

Then the entire concept of unknown distance goes out the window once you've played on a table a few times and are familiar with the distances between terrain objects, etc

The nice thing about pre-measuring is that it helps prevent the movement slippage that some people seem to have a problem with.

You know, where two units are >24" apart but three 6" moves and a 6" assault somehow gets them into combat...

I have to say I'm against pre-measuring because , to me, it removes a very important tactical element from the game.

There have been a lot of times when I've been faced with the "Do I shoot at not very threatening unit A, because it's definitely in range, or do I shoot potentially game-winning unit B which is rattling on the margin of my range??" I find that type of situation adds real pressure to the game.

Plus I'd much rather lose a game because I misjudged the distance and missed a charge or round of shooting, than have it snatched away by the dice gods with a random range roll.

Why do the dice gods hate me so? :-(

Jadenim wrote:I have to say I'm against pre-measuring because , to me, it removes a very important tactical element from the game.

There have been a lot of times when I've been faced with the "Do I shoot at not very threatening unit A, because it's definitely in range, or do I shoot potentially game-winning unit B which is rattling on the margin of my range??" I find that type of situation adds real pressure to the game.

Plus I'd much rather lose a game because I misjudged the distance and missed a charge or round of shooting, than have it snatched away by the dice gods with a random range roll.

Why do the dice gods hate me so? :-(

+1 I agree completely here. If I'm going to lose (which I do alot ) I want it to be because I misjudged something, or made a tatical error. I don't want it to be because my lascannon has 36" + d6" range and I rolled a 1. Yes, premeasuring is a skill that takes time to master, and new players won't have it down yet...but that's why new players lose a few games before they get better. You can always be nice to a new player, and let them pre-measure. Or what I do is let them guess if it's in range or not THEN measure so they get a better eye for these things quickly.

In any case, I really don't think pre-measuring works from a fluff perspective, or an in-game perspective. Maybe, you can add more pieces of wargear or some kind of 'targeting' usr that allows pre-measuring? As had been said earlier, Space Marine suits have lots of fancy sensor doohickeys to measure range. Guard has binoculars. Eldar prob have some kind of psychic detect range power...adding these types of wargear and psychic abilities to 40k would be a much better way than to introduce pre-measuring universally.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Jadenim wrote:I have to say I'm against pre-measuring because , to me, it removes a very important tactical element from the game.

There have been a lot of times when I've been faced with the "Do I shoot at not very threatening unit A, because it's definitely in range, or do I shoot potentially game-winning unit B which is rattling on the margin of my range??" I find that type of situation adds real pressure to the game.

Plus I'd much rather lose a game because I misjudged the distance and missed a charge or round of shooting, than have it snatched away by the dice gods with a random range roll.

Why do the dice gods hate me so? :-(

+1 I agree completely here. If I'm going to lose (which I do alot ) I want it to be because I misjudged something, or made a tatical error. I don't want it to be because my lascannon has 36" + d6" range and I rolled a 1. ...

... ...

Isn't that random factor present whenever you shoot or melee anything? You can have a model standing and inch away from an immobilised Necron Monolith the size of a small building, and have a 50% chance to miss it.

Just move to range 36 of the target.

Killkrazy: Yes, that's true, and there is an element of random chance involved that you simply can't get rid of, but for things like movement? Or range? Every mini game has rules for probability to hit and other fun stuff, and players build their plans around it. Yes, if you changed to rules to allow pre-measuring and random ranges, people would build their plans around that too, but it makes less sense to me than chance to hit and stuff.

The battlefield is not pre-sighted, and unless you take the time to range your target, even the best soldier is guessing at distance. He can be reasonably sure he's in range, but he still won't be. To me, this is something that 40k represents well, and like I said. I would be totally in favor of each faction getting wargear of some kind that allows premeasuring, but I'm against making it a core rule.

SaintHazard wrote:

From a fluff standpoint, simply because your troops do not have your godlike knowledge of the battlefield. They can't simply look over yonder hill and tell instantly that the enemy is two hundred yards away, etc.

Ill call that argument less than valid. Most modern armies like the USA, GB, France, etc have easy access to laser range finders. I would hope that 38,000 years from now a very simple item like that would be part of every ranged weapon built. Perhaps not for the Orks...but Im fairly sure they dont really aim anyways, more like fire in the general direction of the enemy.

I make a similar argument for Battletech...modern tanks that are like 8 feet tall can get something like an 80% hit rate on other targets, while moving at 40+ mph. However, in the year 3000 or so a 50ft tall walking tank has about a 30% hit rate on targets of similar size.

ChrisWWII wrote:The battlefield is not pre-sighted, and unless you take the time to range your target, even the best soldier is guessing at distance. He can be reasonably sure he's in range, but he still won't be. To me, this is something that 40k represents well, and like I said. I would be totally in favor of each faction getting wargear of some kind that allows premeasuring, but I'm against making it a core rule.

I disagree. Even if they don't know exactly how far away the target is, they know approximately how far away the target is, and that's close enough. Pre-measuring is not a solution to any real-life problem, it's a solution to the abstraction in the game that makes the difference between 23.99" and 24.01" more important than it should be.

Mad4Minis wrote:

Ill call that argument less than valid. Most modern armies like the USA, GB, France, etc have easy access to laser range finders. I would hope that 38,000 years from now a very simple item like that would be part of every ranged weapon built. Perhaps not for the Orks...but Im fairly sure they dont really aim anyways, more like fire in the general direction of the enemy.

I make a similar argument for Battletech...modern tanks that are like 8 feet tall can get something like an 80% hit rate on other targets, while moving at 40+ mph. However, in the year 3000 or so a 50ft tall walking tank has about a 30% hit rate on targets of similar size.

That's hardly grimdark though. You're also neglecting that they use tanks that look like they were developed in WWI, and that the IG, rather than manning them with veterans who have experience, toss whatever yahoos they just picked up behind the guns.

AlexHolker wrote:
I disagree. Even if they don't know exactly how far away the target is, they know approximately how far away the target is, and that's close enough. Pre-measuring is not a solution to any real-life problem, it's a solution to the abstraction in the game that makes the difference between 23.99" and 24.01" more important than it should be.

And that's true within 40k too. You'll know if something is definitely close enough for you to shoot at it, and you can direct your fire accordingly. However, the issue comes out at longer ranges when you're not so sure. Is that tank 47" away, or is it 49"? I can shoot at that or I can shoot at the tank I know is within my range. A soldier will know if something is definitely within their range, but without taking the time to sight out and acquire the range with a rangefinder or something, he'll have a hard time discerning if something at the edge of his range is within range or not.

Mad4Minis wrote:

Ill call that argument less than valid. Most modern armies like the USA, GB, France, etc have easy access to laser range finders. I would hope that 38,000 years from now a very simple item like that would be part of every ranged weapon built. Perhaps not for the Orks...but Im fairly sure they dont really aim anyways, more like fire in the general direction of the enemy.

I
Yes, they do have easy access to laser range finders, but even then, you have to set up the range finder, point it at your target and wait for it to tell you the range. I'm all for a wargear upgrade that lets your troops do it, maybe even make it standard for Marines, and have balancing rules. But somehow I doubt every single grunt in the military has a laser rangefinder, and such it is with the IG.

daedalus wrote:That's hardly grimdark though. You're also neglecting that they use tanks that look like they were developed in WWI, and that the IG, rather than manning them with veterans who have experience, toss whatever yahoos they just picked up behind the guns.

No, that's not true.

In the IG, regiments are an All or Nothing affair (to force them to have to work together and prevent 1 renegade Regiment being able to rebel effectively).

The reason you don't see any veteran Tanks (at least in normal 40k) is a) A Balance issue and b) they all get killed before they get a chance to be good.

ChrisWWII wrote:And that's true within 40k too. You'll know if something is definitely close enough for you to shoot at it, and you can direct your fire accordingly. However, the issue comes out at longer ranges when you're not so sure. Is that tank 47" away, or is it 49"? I can shoot at that or I can shoot at the tank I know is within my range. A soldier will know if something is definitely within their range, but without taking the time to sight out and acquire the range with a rangefinder or something, he'll have a hard time discerning if something at the edge of his range is within range or not.

Unless you're talking about things like the RPG-7 (which has a self-destruct timer that prevents the rocket flying more than ~1 kilometer), in real life there's no such thing as "at the edge of his range". There is no edge, just a slow tapering off.

AlexHolker wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:And that's true within 40k too. You'll know if something is definitely close enough for you to shoot at it, and you can direct your fire accordingly. However, the issue comes out at longer ranges when you're not so sure. Is that tank 47" away, or is it 49"? I can shoot at that or I can shoot at the tank I know is within my range. A soldier will know if something is definitely within their range, but without taking the time to sight out and acquire the range with a rangefinder or something, he'll have a hard time discerning if something at the edge of his range is within range or not.

Unless you're talking about things like the RPG-7 (which has a self-destruct timer that prevents the rocket flying more than ~1 kilometer), in real life there's no such thing as "at the edge of his range". There is no edge, just a slow tapering off.

The edge is an abstraction to represent that tapering off. Past a certain range, you can be reasonably sure that even if it DOES hit, it won't cause much damage.

AlexHolker wrote:
Unless you're talking about things like the RPG-7 (which has a self-destruct timer that prevents the rocket flying more than ~1 kilometer), in real life there's no such thing as "at the edge of his range". There is no edge, just a slow tapering off.

That is true, but there is a range past which a soldier can accurately hit something. It doesn't matter if your bullet can go 10 miles, if your scope can only pick out a target 5 miles away. That is what range represents in this game, as Gwar has said.

Me and my friends have a house rule that says we can pre measure. There has not been a significant difference in gameplay.

Soldiers with any amount of experience know the edge of their effective range (the actual range of the weapon being far longer than that), while rookies follow the lead of more experienced soldiers or their commanding officers. Like someone said, blind firing of the current system makes the difference between 23.99" and 24.01" way too significant (as in your odds of success dropping from

I think WFB's system of modifying ranged attacks based on distance to target, whether you're moving, and whether there's cover/concealement/etc. is way better. It certainly is more "realistic", and for me at least, fun than 40K's uber-simplified version of: roll die to hit, if target has foot in shrubbery ignore half the hits.

And really, I would love to have pre-measuring in 40K if only so I can keep tabs on my opponent's movement. Tiny "mistakes" in movement (oh oops, I measured front of base to back of base by "accident") happen all the time, and calling your opponent out at every instance makes you feel and look like a dick even if you're completely in the right. With premeasurement, I could just keep track of where's what, and any cheating/errors during movement would be so obvious that I wouldn't even have to say anything.

Terminus wrote:Soldiers with any amount of experience know the edge of their effective range (the actual range of the weapon being far longer than that), while rookies follow the lead of more experienced soldiers or their commanding officers. Like someone said, blind firing of the current system makes the difference between 23.99" and 24.01" way too significant (as in your odds of success dropping from

Yes, and that is perfectly true. However, I think this would be best represented, not by pre-measuring, but by specialized wargear allowing premeasuring. Even the best soldier can't perfectly tell whether an object is 500 metres away or 550. However, this range could easily be significant in terms of being able to hit that target. As said earlier, grant veteran soldiers or commanders access to upgrades allowing pre-measuring, and avoid having to rework systems to allow for random changes in range.

I think WFB's system of modifying ranged attacks based on distance to target, whether you're moving, and whether there's cover/concealement/etc. is way better. It certainly is more "realistic", and for me at least, fun than 40K's uber-simplified version of: roll die to hit, if target has foot in shrubbery ignore half the hits.

Yes, it is more realistic, but it's much more complicated as you pointed out yourself. Some may enjoy this extra complication, but to me that makes the game much less fun. We may differ here, but I'd rather spend more time killing things than trying to calculate all kinds of variables jjust to see if I can shoot something. More importantly, a lot of new players pick up 40k as their first game, and I like to think they get into it faster and easier because the rules are simple and easy to understand. Yes, there a little dumbed down, but it's so much easier to explain and introduce than Fantasy.

I do agree cover rules are a little generous in 5th, but still. You'd have to be a real TFG to claim that a models foot behind a bush = 4+ cover save. I'd say maybe 6+ would be more appropriate, if the entire squad was behind the bush and in cover. Cover rules need reworking, yes, but complicating the shooting system is not the way to go about it.

The problem with Wargear that allows pre-measuring is that it essentially means the whole army gets pre-measuring anyway.

Case in point, you have a squad of Lootas and Flash Gitz. The Flash Gitz are parallel to the Lootas, and you are unsure if that enemy Manticore directly ahead of you is in range of the lootas.

Just shoot the Flash Gitz first, and now you KNOW that the lootas are in range.

You can even do it now anyway. Not sure if them Bolters are within 24"? Use a Land Speeder to Move, then "Change your mind" in another direction to get a range on them.

Gwar! wrote:The problem with Wargear that allows pre-measuring is that it essentially means the whole army gets pre-measuring anyway.

Case in point, you have a squad of Lootas and Flash Gitz. The Flash Gitz are parallel to the Lootas, and you are unsure if that enemy Manticore directly ahead of you is in range of the lootas.

Just shoot the Flash Gitz first, and now you KNOW that the lootas are in range.

You can even do it now anyway. Not sure if them Bolters are within 24"? Use a Land Speeder to Move, then "Change your mind" in another direction to get a range on them.

Mhmmm, yep. Besides, everyone does it already, no? Using a squad with not that good guns to range for the bigger toys? If we look at it this way, then pre-measuring is basically moot. The only problem is you have to sacrifice something for it.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The problem with Wargear that allows pre-measuring is that it essentially means the whole army gets pre-measuring anyway.

Case in point, you have a squad of Lootas and Flash Gitz. The Flash Gitz are parallel to the Lootas, and you are unsure if that enemy Manticore directly ahead of you is in range of the lootas.

Just shoot the Flash Gitz first, and now you KNOW that the lootas are in range.

You can even do it now anyway. Not sure if them Bolters are within 24"? Use a Land Speeder to Move, then "Change your mind" in another direction to get a range on them.

Mhmmm, yep. Besides, everyone does it already, no? Using a squad with not that good guns to range for the bigger toys? If we look at it this way, then pre-measuring is basically moot. The only problem is you have to sacrifice something for it.

And that is what balances it out!

Gwar! wrote: And that is what balances it out!

And we have no need for a new rule, da?

ChrisWWII wrote:Yes, and that is perfectly true. However, I think this would be best represented, not by pre-measuring, but by specialized wargear allowing premeasuring. Even the best soldier can't perfectly tell whether an object is 500 metres away or 550. However, this range could easily be significant in terms of being able to hit that target.

Prove it. If this claim is going to be the foundation of the argument against allowing pre-measuring, I'd like to see evidence that it is true.

AlexHolker wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:Yes, and that is perfectly true. However, I think this would be best represented, not by pre-measuring, but by specialized wargear allowing premeasuring. Even the best soldier can't perfectly tell whether an object is 500 metres away or 550. However, this range could easily be significant in terms of being able to hit that target.

Prove it. If this claim is going to be the foundation of the argument against allowing pre-measuring, I'd like to see evidence that it is true.

Are we talking 40k wise or IRL?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Are we talking 40k wise or IRL?

In real life. We already know that in 40k half an inch can be the difference between an 83% chance of hitting and 0%. If a 10% increase in range does not cause more than a 5-10% decrease in accuracy in real life, enforcing the "no pre-measuring" rule only serves to draw attention to the inaccuracies of the abstraction.

My claim was based on knowing that a rifle must be properly sighted in order to be accurate, and its sights adjusted so that the bullet hits directly where you want it to at a certain range. If the target changes its range, you must then adjust your sights to compensate. Now, granted this only has an affect of inches over a hundred yards, but still. If you've got a gun sighted at 100 yards, and your being told to shoot at a target 150 yards away....that's going to throw off your accuracy. Part of why most soldier aim for center of mass...even if you're a few inches off you still hit them. But how is a poorly trained Guardsman gonna know that? More importantly...does a lasgun even have iron sights? o.O

Now, of course, I'm not a trained rifleman or a soldier, and if one could come along and tell us more about sighting a weapon as well as the impact range has on accuracy in the military that'd be awesome.

I'm trying to find a debate acceptable article for this....but I'm only finding blogs and stuff right now. I'll post a proper article when I find one.

A weapon that doesnt really care about windage or drops probably doesnt need to have adjusted ranges...

You also ignored that, in fluff at least, Marines have standard equipment which tells them exactly when to start shooting. They KNOW exactly when their firing will be most effective - its projected into their HUD.

Premeasuring should be put in, it levels the playing field for a skill that isnt particularly required in a war game, in my opinion. Fantasy has GREATLY benefitted from it.

Nosferatu: That's true, since the beam probably dissipates slightly at a set point, but ah well. Even without wind factor and drops, the lasgun would benefit from iron sights.....But that's a bit OT.

That is true, and like I said I'm all for a wargear upgrade that factors in pre-measuring. You just have a pay points for it. As I understand, the rolling to hit is not just accounting for how acccurate your guy shooting it, but also factors in the target jumping out of the way, changing position and all kinds of other things. So yes, just because a Space Marine sees his target, and knows where to put his firepower doesn't guarantee he'll hit. More importantly....Space Marines are famous for putting honor before reason. I'm willing to bet that sometimes a Marine will ignore what his technology is telling him, just so he can follow the more 'honorable' course of action.

E.g. (kinda) Eisenhorn, Xenos Eisenhorn's assault team has a Space Marine. Despite being informed constantly by Eisenhorn on how to adjust his aim, the Marine ignores said advice in order to follow the more honorable course.

I personally feel like judging distances IS a very important skill to have in wargaming. If you look at the table, you know you can move your guys forward 6" in one way to get within shooting distance of Target A (threatening and vulnerable to shooting). BUT in another direction is Target B (possible game winner and vulnerable to assault). You could, potentially, be in able to assault Target B if you move towards it, but in doing so you will definitely be out of range of Target A. What do you do? Do you take the risk of maybe wasting your assault and shooting because Target B is 13" away. Or do you play it safe and just go attack Target A? Premeasuring would eliminate this type of tactical problem that a player needs to face, not to mention, judging distance IS a major part of wargaming.

Interesting. So theoretically, Marines should be BS5, except that they're idiots.

I like it!

During the American Civil War, George Custer, who later died at the Battle of the Little Big Horn was a captain on the staff of one of the Union generals.

One day they were riding along on march, and came to a river that the general wanted to cross. No-one had a map that might show a ford, so they spent some time discussing how deep the river might be, according to the speed of flow and such factors, but they couldn’t come to a conclusion.

Custer was noted for being impetuous, and he suddenly said, “You want to know how deep the river is, General?”

And he rode into the middle of the river.

Turning back he called out, “It’s this deep.”

This story makes two points in relation to the pre-measuring question.

1. Generals don’t have to guess how deep a river is.
2. Generals don’t have to send their entire force into the river to find out.

SaintHazard wrote:Interesting. So theoretically, Marines should be BS5, except that they're idiots.

I like it!

Glad you do! Of course, GW will never admit it, but everyone knows it's true!

Killkrazy: No, they don't have to send in their whole army. But they do have to send one guy to check they won't all drown if they try to cross.

Scott-S6 wrote:The nice thing about pre-measuring is that it helps prevent the movement slippage that some people seem to have a problem with.

You know, where two units are >24" apart but three 6" moves and a 6" assault somehow gets them into combat...

Indeed.

Yes, and that is perfectly true. However, I think this would be best represented, not by pre-measuring, but by specialized wargear allowing premeasuring. Even the best soldier can't perfectly tell whether an object is 500 metres away or 550. However, this range could easily be significant in terms of being able to hit that target. As said earlier, grant veteran soldiers or commanders access to upgrades allowing pre-measuring, and avoid having to rework systems to allow for random changes in range.

If you've ever fired a gun for any length of time, you really pick up where your effective range is even without being a good judge of distances. No soldier except the designated sniper maybe will be engaging targets at 500 meters. The actual engagements take place well within the weapons' ranges.

And your proposed partial pre-measuring is a horrible solution. It doesn't fix the issue with movement cheating/fudging, if you can premeasure from some troops you can basically apply that to adjacent troops that don't have targeters (i.e. more "cheating", unless you bring back and modify the 3rd edition rule to not allow firing of any other weapon without a targeter once one weapon with a targeter has been fired), and it unbalances the game in favor of elite armies who would have more access to such equipment.

Yes, it is more realistic, but it's much more complicated as you pointed out yourself. Some may enjoy this extra complication, but to me that makes the game much less fun. We may differ here, but I'd rather spend more time killing things than trying to calculate all kinds of variables jjust to see if I can shoot something. More importantly, a lot of new players pick up 40k as their first game, and I like to think they get into it faster and easier because the rules are simple and easy to understand. Yes, there a little dumbed down, but it's so much easier to explain and introduce than Fantasy.

You don't calculate "if" you can shoot something, it just modifies your success rate. Frankly, if you can't do basic +1/-1 arithmetic, then you're an idiot. A "little" dumbed down? 40K is basically the preschool version of miniature wargames. But granted, that makes it more accessible, for preschoolers who won't read the rulebook anyway and just make up gak as they go along. Hell, from what I've seen, even folks in their 30s tend to do the same when it comes to 40K. Having a more robust and engaging ruleset may convince some people to actually read the rulebook. I know it's a slim hope, but I have noticed that 40k-exclusive players tend to be a bit on the dimwitted side compared to pretty much everyone else (yes, even the smelly guys playing Blood Bowl in the corner).

ChrisWWII wrote:My claim was based on knowing that a rifle must be properly sighted in order to be accurate, and its sights adjusted so that the bullet hits directly where you want it to at a certain range. If the target changes its range, you must then adjust your sights to compensate. Now, granted this only has an affect of inches over a hundred yards, but still. If you've got a gun sighted at 100 yards, and your being told to shoot at a target 150 yards away....that's going to throw off your accuracy. Part of why most soldier aim for center of mass...even if you're a few inches off you still hit them. But how is a poorly trained Guardsman gonna know that? More importantly...does a lasgun even have iron sights? o.O

Now, of course, I'm not a trained rifleman or a soldier, and if one could come along and tell us more about sighting a weapon as well as the impact range has on accuracy in the military that'd be awesome.

I'm trying to find a debate acceptable article for this....but I'm only finding blogs and stuff right now. I'll post a proper article when I find one.

Quite.

If you had to resight your rifle every time you switched from 100 to 150 yards or whatever, then rifles would be pretty crappy weapons on the whole. As you say, center body mass shots kill regardless and the drift is really minimal at such ranges. In fact, many modern sights just have increments so you can instantly adjust for any number of distances. Hell, I have pistols with multistage sights like that. A guardsman with the most elementary training would be adequately prepared for this task. And the point is moot anyway since a lasgun's "ballistics" (for a lack of a better term) are completely different and would not be affected by wind or gravity.

Given that you have actually fired guns for a period of time, and have experience with the topic, I will concede my points about sighting and range determining for you. I admitted I'm not trained, and have limited experience, and I was arguing as a layperson. I'm more than happy to bow out to someone with real experience.

Now, onto game mechanics......Well, you already can do that form of pre-measuring by using a unit with a crappy gun (Guardsman with lasguns) to get a range estimate for a bigger, more important toy (Heavy Weapons Squad with autocannons). If we accept that (which no one views as cheating), then there is no need whatsoever for either an upgrade as I suggested, or for pre-measuring as you suggest. I also don't understand why you think having a targeteer would be 'cheating' ? Even in a fluff sense, the guy with the targeteer wouldn't just be using it to sight for himself. He'd be shouting out range and whatever other information his comrades need, thus the squad, and most units near him in a vague sense get the benefit.

It would not have to unbalance it, if GW actually puts some effort into the rules, then we can get a good balance. I have no idea what balance changes those might be, but I'm sure it could be possible to see a properly balanced targeteer system.

On the topic of 'cheating' within movement. I think that's a factor with any wargame that uses models in loose formations like Warhammer 40k. No doubt some of the more stringent movement in Fantasy is because most major units are on bases, and instead of having to measure for 10 or more models, you only have to measure once for a whole bunch. I can tell you for sure, that I only measure for one or two models when I'm moving my Guardsmen, and then move the rest up behind them. Did some move more than 6"? Probably. But I value a game that runs fast and efficiently over one where I spend my time measuring for each individual guy.

Sorry, I meant if you can shoot something as 'can you shoot, hit and hurt the enemy'. I can do basic arithmetic easily, but on this, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I play 40k so I can kick back, relax, and enjoy killing some heretics in the name of the God-Emperor. While I could easily do the math, I'd prefer not to for the sake of fun. Obviously, we differ in opinion on this, and aren't going to be convincing the other any time soon.

And I enjoy the open ruleset. It makes it very easy to convince people to join, excluding pre-schoolers. Some people are perfectly intelligent, but get a headache trying to learn all kinds of variations that come with a more complex ruleset. I'm very pleased with simpler rules, and I wouldn't want them made more complicated just to make the game more exclusive.

I don't want to make the game more exclusive, merely more engaging. But of course you're right that this is a very subjective aspect of the game.

By the way, what's with all the Russian stuff? The "k" is unnecessary in that sentence.

Eh, I'm a slight Russian culture/history nut who themed his IG as a Soviet Shock Army. Since I don't speak Russian (yet!) I had to use google translate to get the Russian of my army's battlecry....

It no doubt came out horribly, HORRIBLY for anyone who actually speaks Russian. It allegedly says: "For Emperor and Union!" but who knows?

Haha, no, it says "Death to the enemies of humanity". The 'k' is an out-of-place preposition.

You want "За Союз и Императора!" if you want to say "For Union and the Emperor!" I know I flipped the words, but it flows better than way when screaming in it in battle.

Woops, I suppose I should ask for that to be changed, shouldn't I? I could've sworn I had it as the latest one. Ah well. Thanks for the heads up!