I have seen lots, and lots of CSM threads on here about what people would like to see in a new CSM codex. However, one thing I have yet to see (or seen in any serious attempt) is anyone actually post and discuss various stats for these upgrades.

So lets have a civil go, shall we?

First off, we need somewhere to start. Characters are fairly straight forward and simple, so lets start here.

Here is my take on fixing Abby:

Cons: High base cost compared to newer codex hero's, has the ability to neuter himself on a bad roll, not near as tough as he once was compared to newer characters.

Abaddon

(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Undivided)

Cost: 250 Points

Wargear: Termi Ar, Personal Icon, Drach'nyen, Talon Of Horus

Special Rules: Fearless, IC,

Mark Of Chaos Ascendant:
*Insert Fluff here*
Abby counts as haveing every chaos mark. Thus gets every chaos mark bonus (include in profile).

The Gods Have A Plan:
Abby has been chosen by all four chaos gods, and his uncanny ability to walk away from horiffic battles without a scratch on him is proof that they are protecting him so he can fight another day.

Gives Abby a 3+ inv save (which includes the MOT +1) and grants him the eternal warrior USR.

Drach'nyen and Talon Of Horus:
*Insert Fluff*
The effect of these two weapons combined means that Abby counts as being equiped with a daemon weapon (+D6 attacks) that doubles his strength instead of the normal +1, and may re roll failed "To Wound" rolls in combat. Talon Of Horus has a built in bolter of Ancient Design and in the shooting phase may be fired useing the following profile:
Range 12, Str 4, AP 5, assault 3

Legendary Warmaster:
*Insert Fluff*
Abbys daemon weapon on a roll of 1 doesn't attack him. Instead he may only attack with his base attacks and gets no additional attacks that turn as he grapples with control of the weapon. Also even the sight of the Warmaster striding toward them across the battlefield is enough to make grown men cower in fear. All enemy Leadership checks within 12 inches of the warmaster are at -1 and any squad that he joins gains Fearless USR.

Chosen Bodyguard:
Brought Back from the 3.5 dex. (Stats and costs to follow up later once Chosen are re-worked)

Discuss away.

Only 220 points?

My God, make him around 260 or higher. He could beast any character I can think of.

That aside, I definitely like his rules upgrade, makes him a worthwhile super-character.

Well, the problem is that he currently costs around the 270 mark.. and is overcost at that when compared to the newer "uber" codex characters.

Lets meet in the middle and discuss shall we?

How does 240 sound?

Maybe 250 points at the most, and a rule which invokes terror in nearby enemies would be good for him.

Hmmm...

How would you do the Terror bit though?

Maybe a negative to all enemy LD tests within X inches?

Yeah, that's just what I had in mind.

Finally my kind of thread. I’ve been wanting a more organised proposed rules thread on Chaos for a while now. I think once we’ve finished Abaddon, we should move onto the other special characters. Hopefully at the end of this, we can have some sort of PDF document with all the finalised and discussed rules.

I think Abaddon’s cost should be no higher or lower than 250 and his power adjusted as such. I rather see Abaddon’s combi bolter upgraded rather than have some kind of a terror ability. The majority of the marine SCs have some kind of pimp storm bolter and realistically, the combi bolter on the Talon of Horus is probably also pimp. Maybe something like

Range: 12 Str: 4 AP: 3 Assault 2
OR
Range: 18 Str: 4 AP: 3 Rapid fire, twin linked
OR
Range: 24 Str: X AP: 4 Rapid fire, twin linked (always wounds on 2+)
OR
Range: 24 Str: 4 AP: 5 Rapid fire, twin linked (re-rolls to wound rolls as well)

Ok, so it seems 250 is the number people can agree on.

It is a little higher then what I was thinking... but I am a fair and open minded person. So 250 it is.

As for upgradeing his bolter, I don't really see or invision Abby as any kind of shooty character. Everything fluff wise that I have come across over the years also paints him as a close combat monster. Plus it is built into the "Talon Of Horus", so I can't really see it being upgraded.

Maybe a different ammunition type perhaps?

And yes.. I have some free time for the near future with Wildland season comming to a close. So I was planning on hitting at least the weak spots in the chaos codex and have some fun with it.

*EDIT*
Rules Updated.

The thing is that Abby will always be a CC monster and so will Calgar and Kharn, yet both Calgar and Kharn have decent shooting weaponry.

I think Abby should function as a CC monster with a reliable short ranged shooting weapon that he can used before charging into combat. His combi bolter should not be overpowered or AP2 like Calgars bolter but slightly better than average combi bolter. He is the Warmaster of Chaos after all (no expenses spared) and the weapon did belong to Horus after all.

The different combi bolters I designed above were inspired by the special ammunition in the Vanilla dex. Personally I reckon something like the hellfire rounds (wounding on 2+) or something with a slightly better AP value (4 or 3) would be satisfactory and enough to match Abby’s power to 250 points (from your 240 point design).

How about we meet in the middle, and make it an assault 3(?) weapon at current stats?

Not overpowered in the least, and is slightly better then his current setup. And he can assault after shooting it thus adding to his CC powers.

Assault 3 is good. Lord Zhufor, a forgeworlds terminator character had an assault 3 bolter attached to his powerfist. The fluff described it as a bolter of ancient design. It had the following profile

Range 12, Str 4, AP 5, assault 3

That, I can agree with.

Yes, he would lose his "Linked" status (thus the re-roll) but he gains the ability to assault after shooting. I feel that this is a equal trade off.

Yeah. I feel it is a great weapon that would suit Abby. Now that Abby is done. Who is next?

Well to be honest, my play was to post an entry every day. Thus would allow some time for people to comment away and offer their feedback.

Plus my codex isn't handy at the moment, but my plan was to go down the list page by page in order starting with characters.

Fair enough. I'm cool with whatever strategy

This thread.....

This thread I like

You may want to downgrade his "Gods have a Plan" Save to 4+ though, as MoT gives him +1 to his Invul Save. Or at least say "this includes his Mark of Tzeentch" just to avoid any confusion.

To make it even easier for the reader to interpret, just put “(including Mark of Tzeentch)” when mentioning the 3++ save in the “Gods have a Plan” entry

Sounds like a plan and it is updated.

Glad you like it.

Want me to post Fabius' Profile? It's the next in line on the FoC.

Ill let you guys squabble over the named guys, Here's what Ive got for normal HQ's

For the chaos lord I think for what he does, his base point cost should be lowered to 80 at the least.

As for marks:
Khorne: Grants Furious charge, and +1 attack.

Tzeentch: +1 to his invulnerable, Warptime (free) THIS DOES NOT MAKE HIM A PSYKER.

Nurgle: should grant him feel no pain and +1 toughness

Slaanesh: +1 initiative and fleet

Upgrades: these are fine. But add one more: Able to take eternal warrior for 20pts

Special rules: IC, Fearless, 5+ invulnerable (4+ if in termi, 3+ if both)

Chaos sorcerers: Everyone knows these guys are insanely expensive because of one thing: spells. So Ive come up with a nice little set up:

Chaos sorcerer: base 110pts (vanilla)
wargear: same, Comes with Gift of chaos, warptime, and wind of chaos.

Marks: These will affect the sorcerers stats and abilities

Khorne: The sorcerer loses all spells and force weapon, but gains a Blood-Glaive: +2 attacks, all models within 6'' of sorcerer has fleet and preferred enemy, This also affects enemies. 4+ invulnerable. immune to psychic powers

Tzeentch: able to cast two spells. Loses wind of chaos but gains bolt of tzeentch (instead of just str 8 ap 1 assault 1, it can do smaller burst shots of str 4 ap 3 assault 4). re-rollable 5+ invulnerable.

Slaanesh: Loses gift of chaos, gains lash of submission. gains fleet and 1 initiative. 4+ invulnerable.

Nurgle: Loses warptime, able to cast wind of chaos twice, but will be unable to assault. Gains FNP and +1 toughness.

extra upgrades:
Charms of Chaos: enemy psykers within 18'' of sorcerer take psyhic tests on 3d6. choose the highest 2.

mounts/wings, gun, w/e else.


Chosen Chaos space marines:
Give the Champion his own upgrades (currently he has to share with the 4 upgrades available)
Chosen should be fearless.

Possessed: LOWER THEIR COST.
Lose the random buff, let them be able to take buffs for a price (5-20pts depending on buff) max of 2 buffs.
possessed should be able to take wings for 5pts a model.

Termies: let em take asscannons, or buff the "weeper-autocannon" seriously this thing makes me weep

Chaos Dreadnaught:
Lose the crazed rule, seriously. let him take asscannons or buff the weeper.
Marks:
Khorne: rage rule (move-run-assault nearest enemy) +1 attack and furious charge
Nurgle: +1 front and rear armor (13, 12, 11), has a cloud of locusts making him have a 5+ cover save
Tzeentch: Has a str 6 ap 3 flamer, ignores terrain for movement
Slaanesh: Has +1 initiative, Uses a whip arm to drag vehicles or units that are 12'' away d6'' towards the dread (hits on a 4+)
Whip lowers the attacks of all models in cc with the dread by 1 to a minimum of 1

Defiler gets similar upgrades from marks (whip arm, pissed off khorne, floaty tzeentch, tougher nurgle)

Basic CSM:
Marks need to be cheaper for what they do or keep the prices but give better buffs.

lesser/greater daemons: LET US HAVE GOD SPECIFIC DAEMONS WITH THEIR OWN ABILITIES. (priced accurately ofcourse)

CULTISTS!: we need a cheap blob unit, these guys are perfect.

VEHICLES:
Rhinos are okay, perhaps offer options of god specific weaponry depending on the mark of the squad it started off carrying.
OR.
keep normal rhinos but give us god specific razor backs.

Razorback of khorne: (8 models) Ignores stunned.
Can only be used by khorne berzerkers or CSM with MoK, this does not confer to IC's. Has two TL bolters on top (may upgrade to combis for 5pts per).
Is a fast, assault vehicle.

Razorback of Nurgle: (7models) (may only be used by plague marines or CSM's with MoN) Thicker armor (12, 11, 10), cloud of flies (5+cover, unless there's better) Has a pus launcher on top (str 5 ap 4 heavy 3 blast)
This vehicle may only move 6'' always passes terrain checks

Razorback of Tzeentch: (9 models) (May only be used by thousand suns or CSM's with MoT) 10 armor all round, has a re-rollable 4+ cover save. has a TL Infernobolts bolter on top. This vehicle is a skimmer and opentopped.

Razorback of Slaanesh: (6 models), comes with two TL sonic blasters (may add a doom siren for 15, or replace the TL sonic blasters with a 2 blastmasters for 20 per)
This vehicle causes all enemies within 18'' to take leadership/psychic/w/e else tests with a -2 modifier.
this vehicle is fast.

the prices would be the same as a normal razor back, but paying to have it be a god specific one as the upgrades.

as for the normal razorback: (6 models) has a TL heavy bolter on top. May have normal vehicle upgrades. may up the turret to buffed weeper cannons (or TL ass cannon) for 15, or a TL lascannon for 30.

LANDRAIDER VARIENTS: (non loyalist chaos versions)
some of the varients are god specific.
All land raiders come with Daemonic intelligence. This vehicle will ignore crew stunned, but will always be able to fire 1 weapon if shaken. May target two units with weapons.

Landraider Infester (nurgle): (10 models) TL Pussprayer sponsons (AP4. template, always wounds on a 3+) and a TL puslauncher on top. Has cloud of locusts (5+ cover)
May only move 6'' but always passes terrain tests.

Landraider Bloodspiller (khorne): (16 models) TL Heavy bolter sponsons, Two TL heavy bolters on top. This vehicle is fast (combined with already being an assault vehicle) Ignores imobilized results on a 5+

Landraider Warper (tzeentch): (10 models) 12 armor all round, TL S5 ap 3 warpflamer sponsons, Warplauncher on top (large blast sends anyone who fails a toughness test (they must roll their toughness or lower) into the warp (eternal warriors suffer a wound). 6 always fails. re-rollable 4+ cover save.
This vehicle ignores terrain, but is opentopped.

Landraider Violator (slaanesh): (10 models) 4TL sonic blasters per sponson OR TLblastmaster sponson. Doom Organ on top. Any enemies within 18'' of this vehicle taker any leadership/psychic w/e else tests on a -2 modifiier

Doom Organ: A much larger and more powerful doom siren capable of emitting many different sounds and attacks.
shot:
full auto: The organ player lets off a softer extremly fast paced tune, S3, Ap6 assault 15
burst: The Player slams on the keys hard releasing a massive wave of sound, S4 ap5 assault 2 template (2 flame templates)
Focused Fire: The organ player sets his volume to 11 and begins slamming the keys at a crazed rate creating a earth shattering sound-wave S10 ap2 ordnance1 large blast, Lance, pinning.
This vehicle is fast

Non god landraiders: these guys can take normal vehicle upgrades and daemonic intelegence for 30 pts.

Landraider Destroyer: TL Plasma cannon sponsons, Plasma destroyer on top (two shots)

Landraider Corrupter: Reaper auto cannon sponsons, Two reapers on top (this baby was made to shoot. and shoot it will.

Predators:
Same shenanigans here, god specific ones will have special weapons and rules. we will also have a fast attack version. but its front armor is 12, and TL bolter sponsons with reaper auto cannon on top. Its fast.

DROP PODS OMFGWTFBBQ:
WE NEED THESE. Drop pods have existed before the heresy but some codex writers thought it would be funny to deny us these. Instead of clyclone missile launchers we would get havoc launchers inside them.

Also an option to purchase an upgrade to allow those who deep strike from it to be able to assault.

OBLITS:
Make them cheaper, yes they have two wounds and a 2+ save but for what they can do, they arent worth 75pts a pop.

OR. Keep the price, but make them S5, T6.

OR. Keep the price, Immune to instant death, and Twin-link their heavy weapons.

HAVOCS:
make las cannons 30pts, make missile launchers 15, If the unit has a champion, allow the havocs to split their fire (ALL shots must be fired at the same time, so no popping tanks with las cannons then smashing the contents with heavy bolters). Allow one to take a plasmacannon.
The squad may become relentless at 3pts per model.

thats all ive got for now.

Return raptors to being Unmarked only please?

It would be great if we could organise something as many CSM players know their Codex is

Here's some of what I've come up with in regards to Special Rules and Marks...as for the marks many ideas have been taken from the 'Marks should be different' thread. I feel marks should confer more abilities than mere Icons...I think for the more dedicated Chaos armies units such as Chosen, Terminators, Havocs etc should be able to have Marks or Icons...

Chaos Space Marine Special Rules:

All the original Traitor Legions and their Renegade brothers have nurtured an almost infinite hatred of their Loyal Space Marine brethren. Many who fought during the Heresy can still recall those days as if they they were there again, re-living the shame of defeat, whilst the fresh hatred and dissolution of the Imperium and its Emperor is like a cancer forever growing within the Renegade's mind. Several times since the Hersey Abaddon has often re-ignited their shared hatred for their most common enemy – The Emperor & his loyal Astartes. As Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade still rages around the Cadian Gate there is only one vital objective. All Chaos Marines have the following rule:

Death to the False Emperor!: Chaos Marines have the Preferred Enemy universal special rule against any Space Marines army.

Renegades: Space Marine Renegades are as diverse as the nature of Chaos itself. Some have become so focussed and driven in their dedication that they have been 'adopted' into the orignal Traitor Legions. Others have become a force of their own, acting as Pirates or Mercenaries to Chaos Lords or any who would pay their demands. Others, still, have only just rebelled either fighting a campaign of their own or are else heading to the Cadian Gate to join the Despoiler's 13th Crusade.

A Chaos Marine army may be picked in either of two ways. It may use this as a stand-alone Codex, or it may use the Space Marine Codex as the basis. This is to give Chaos players the chance to represent a newly renegade army that has renounced its oath to the Emperor and the Imperium itself. If the latter is chosen then all Space Marine Special Rules (other than Drop Pod Assault: see below) are removed and are replaced with the Death to the False Emperor! rule & all Unique choices, Chaplains & The Legion of The Damned are removed as options from the Army List.

If used all Space Marine Independent Characters may be given the Mark of Chaos Undivided for 20 points. All Infantry units may take an Icon of Chaos Undivided for + 10 points.

Note: Other Chapter specific Codex books could be used in a similar fashion but this may end up crippling their effectiveness too much that no player may wish to. I have not covered these due to the many complications that would arise, however it would simply be a case of using the rules and army lists as normal and modeling the models differently.

Dreadclaw Assault: Many Chaos Legions and Renegades have kept the manufacturing and craft capabilities they have had since their inception, and many still retain a suitably sized fleet and supporting craft, including the use of Drop Pods or their Dreadclaw varients. Chaos commanders are often less scrupulous than their Loyalist 'equals' and often deploy such craft simultaneously, shocking the enemy with their speed and precision in force:

Any unit with a Drop Pod or Dreadclaw as its Dedicated Transport vehicle may choose to remain in reserve at the start of the battle as normal, or else deploy on their first turn, following all the rules for Space Marine Drop Pods.

Marks of Chaos: The Mark of any particular Chaos God is earned only through many years, if not decades, or even centuries, of combat and sacrifice. Often an individual dedicating themselves to a particular God will have to pass many tests or challenges set by their new Master as a sign of their devotion. The Marks themselves are a blessing from their God that alter their champion's physiology and temprament and may even gift them with special abilities suitable to the God's whims. Marks may only ever be given to Independent Characters or certain Elite choices as stated in their army list entry. Any ability marked * applies to Independent Characters only. The rules are as follows:

Mark of Khorne: + 1 A, + 1 WS*, Furious Charge.
Nurgle: + 1 (T), - 1 I, Feel No Pain*
Slaanesh: + 1 Initiative, Acute Senses, Aura of Acquiesence*
Tzeentch: 4+ Inv, Inferno Bolts, Oracle of Tzeentch*
Undivided: Fearless (units only), Eternal Warrior*

Aura of Acquiesence:
The Champion or unit is wrapped with the glamour of Slaanesh and is a beauticious wounder to all who look upon them, often reducing their enemy to gaze upon them in awe and desire, only to be cut down or eviscerated by the angelic site before them. Only the most strong willed or disciplined are able to see the champion or unit for what they truly are.

Enemy units in base contact with a model with this rule count as Weapon Skill 1 unless they can pass a Ld test at the start of any combat. The rule has no effect against units who are subject to Rage.

Oracle of Tzeentch:
The Lord or Sorceror of Tzeentch has been given the ability of great foresight by their Master and can peer into events and destiny's as sure as they can the physical forms of their enemies. This enables them to determine the enemies deployment and reserve schedule, as well as giving an imperious ability to surpise the approaching enemy before they can even react. The ways of the Lord of Change are fickle, however, and can lead the champion towards their own doom as sure as any victory.

This ability works differently on Lords and Sorcerors, for Tzeentch changes and manipulates their talents to best suit his own needs. The rule confers the Warptime psychic power to the Lord of Tzeentch and enables the Sorceror to re-deploy D3 friendly units before the battle begins should they wish to do so. The ability enables either to 'Sieze the Initiative' on a D6 roll of 5 or 6. However on a roll of 1 the Changer of Ways has an alternate plan for them and the enemy gets to re-deploy D3 of the Chaos Marine player's units.

If more than one HQ is taken with the Mark of Tzeentch then they may re-roll the dice to sieze the Initiative.

Or something like that....

OK, thank you all for trying to contribute, but this is why I was trying to keep things organised. Right now our focus looks like a shotgun pattern at 50 yards.

It's all over the place.

Lets knock out the Characters first, then move on to the main body later. (HQ, troops ect ect)

Up next:

Fabius Bile
(Patron God: Undivided)
Cons: Instant death, but not on a power weapon.... Enhanced warrior nobody uses due to being random and more then likely to kill off your own guys then get anything useful out of it.... Ap6 poisoned weapon is pretty much useless.

My Take on how to fix him:

(Profile same as before)

Cost: 160 (no change, I feel with his new upgrades he is now worthy of his points cost)

Xyclos Needler:
Range 18'' Str:N/A AP:5 Assault 3 Posioned (4+)

Rod Of Torment:
Counts as a power weapon that grants instant death.

Enhanced Warriors:
Pay 10(?) points per squad before game setup and roll on the following chart and apply to that squad for the remainder of the game. Can only be used on regular CSM troops. Can only be purchased once per squad
D6 Roll:
1: +1 WS
2: +1 BS
3: +1 STR
4: + 1 Wound
5: + Fearless
6: Ive Created a Monster! Pick one upgrade of your choice and roll again. If you roll two sixes in a row, uncontrolled mutation rips through your ranks, leaving few standing. Replace your squad with a Chaos Spawn. If a squad is removed this way then it does NOT count as a VP/KP/whatever for your opponent for scoring.


I feel that this addresses the main complaints I have heard about this SC. As always please feel free to comment away.

Just to make the discussion a bit less chaotic... how about cover one mark at a time. Start with specifics and then balance out to Chaos Undivided.

Start with an easy one. Mark of Khorne:

Lords: +1 WS, +1 A, +1 S, Furious Charge, Fearless
Needed to qualify Berzerkers as troops.


Daemonic Weapon: 2d6 extra attacks as now but instead of wounding user on a 1, wounds user on a double. Works like a Psychic Hood but with only a 12" radius.

Sorcerer: Does not exist

Special Mark infantry: Khorne Berzerkers (+1 WS, +1 A, Furious Charge, Fearless) Loss only allowed special weapon is Plasma Pistols. No Heavy Weapons

Mark infantry: (+1 A) No heavy weapons allowed.

Mark lesser daemon: (+1 S) CSM Lesser Daemons are a more ethereal duplicate of the true Chaos Daemon - They look just like a true daemon of that mark - in this case a Bloodletter - but they do not have the power weapon equivalent that true Bloodletters use. Their ethereal nature means they start attacking while they are materializing and thus can assault on the turn they deep strike.

Mark greater daemon: (AS LORD)

Mark Dreadnought: (Built in Rage - must charge closest opponent. Twice the number of base attacks. A 4 (6 w 2 CCW) NOTE: In effect a khorn dreadnough is in frenzied state at all times. No longer schizophrenic - Khorne dreadnoughts want to charge into HTH - they never fire frenzy but shine once they are in HTH.

I've spent AGES thinking about stuff like this. I've got more for basic troops, but (respecting what the OP would like) Ill stick to characters:

jp400: why not just say the Rod of torment is just a power weapon then? that gives +1S?

Typhus is good as is, can't stand the Scythe thing he has though (but thtats modelling) maybe let him take a retinue of blight termies? 45pts per. WS3 BS4 S4 T4(5) I3 Ld 10 (Fearless) Sv2+/5++ FNP TL Bolter, CCW (NOT powerweapon, like others) Blight Grenades(or simmilar - defensive grenades)

Kharn: Drop the plasma pistol

Ahriman: Immune to PotW


Chaos needs some sort of new character - one with a jump pack:
Badassnamehere
WS5 BS5 S4 T4 I4 Sv3+ Ld10 (Fearless)
Frags, Lightning Claw, Powerfist, Bolt pistol (maybe built into LC or PF?) may take a retinue of up to 4 raptor champions
same stats as him
Frags, Power weapon, BP, meltabombs. up to 2 may replace meltabombs and BP with either melta or flamer, or replace PS and meltabombs with PF or LCs (two)

what do you all think????

Updated.

Ive also added "Patron God" to the two characters.. I envision a system like in 3.5 where you have to choose a god (or undivided) which will unlock characters for you to choose from.

So if you choose Khorne, your troops will be Zerkers, with Hq choices like Kharn. Or Nurgle, thus giving you PM's for troops and Hq's like Typhus. ect ect.

This makes our next Character stand out a little bit, by allowing him to mix and match abit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Huron Blackheart:
* Same Stats
* Patron God: Undivided
*Cost: 170

Red Corsairs:
*Insert Fluff here*
Any army that takes Huron Blackheart as one of its HQ choices that normally wouldn't be allowed to take regular chaos space marines as troop choices, may elect to do so.

Abaddon as stated there would have all four Daemon Weapons, clarify that

There are nine Chaos Legions, so I think that there needs to be AT LEAST 9 special characters. The biggest issue with the CSM book is that there is no way to play most of the legions. My solution to this is three fold. (Along with a general re-balancing so all of the options are useful)

1) The only basic troops are Space Marines, and Cultists. All of the legion troops are Elites now. (They are veterans of the siege of terra, they are not basic troops

2) There are 9 upgrades for a CSM Lord to dedicate him to one of the legions. This includes making ONE unit of their legion's specialty a troop choice and some other upgrade.

3) There are 9 special Characters, one for each legion. They would make ALL of their legion's specialty troops.

Black Legion: Terminators become troops
Lord: units within 12" may reroll LD
Character: Abbadon, mostly the same.

World Eaters: Bezerkers become troops
Lord: Always hits on a 3+
Character: Kharn, mostly the same.

Thousand Sons: Thousand Sons become troops
Lord: Becomes a psyker with 1 power a turn.
Character: Ahriman, mostly the same, but better.

Death Guard: Plague Marines become troops
Lord: 4+ poison
Character: Typhus, mostly the same.

Emperor's Children: Noise Marines become Troops
Lord: unit gains hit and run
Charcter: Lucius , mostly the same but better

Night Lords: Raptors become troops.
Lord: -1 LD to enemy in assault
Character: Has a jump Pack, Blend into Shadows- can return to reserves to deepstrike. and then Deep Strike assault.

Iron Warriors:Lord makes one predator or Vindicator troops, Character makes all Obliterators troops.
Lord: Servo Arm
Character: Olbiterator with a servo harness and extra obliterator weapon options

Alpha Legion: Chosen become Troops
Lord: Reroll outflanking rolls
Character: According to Plan: Select two units in reserve. One enters automatically turn 2, the other turn 5

Word Bearers: Possessed become Troops.
Lord: Chaplain with liturgies of hate.
Character: Chaplain. Reroll reserves for summoned demons.

Iron Warriors:Lord makes one predator or Vindicator troops, Character makes all Obliterators troops.
Lord: Servo Arm
Character: Olbiterator with a servo harness and extra obliterator weapon options

Really? Obliterators as troop choices? It's hard enough when people are using 9 of them in a game...

Why not make there be more vehicle options, or cheaper transports or something.

Perhaps armor that makes their vehicles Front Armor +1 or something?

Bionics? Twin-Linked Melta/Plasma/I dunno what guns?

I think the Iron Warriors Character should be more like a Master of the Forge, however making obliterators elites, instead of dreadnoughts as heavy support. Also, with the lord making a vehicle a troop choice, it still wouldn't be able to capture objectives. Is this just to get more heavy support?

The old iron warriors army list was 4 heavy support slots and then 3 sets of obliterators as elites. All of the other characters made something a troops choice. How about the Iron Warriors Character makes Havocs troops and Obliterators Elite?

I like that, although do you mean obliterators are both elites and heavy support? Or just elites?

I like the idea of Havocs as troops and Obliterators are Elites.

But that'd probably overpower them.

Picture this. 4 Havoc Squads. 3 Obliterator Squads. 3 Vindicators.

Is that really fair?

Just elite for obilterators

Actually with an iron warriors Lord and Character you could have maximum 4 vindicators, 5 Havoc squads, and 3 Obliterators

Its less worse than some things I've seen, and it has distinct disadvantages in mellee.... (Not saying its right, just saying its less wrong...)

Liking some of the things in here.

...Night lords - considering ALL raptors have those crazy scremer things to DEMORALISE enemies. they should get some bonus for that. Night lords get stuff like chaos land speeders, etc.

jp400 wrote:I have seen lots, and lots of CSM threads on here about what people would like to see in a new CSM codex. However, one thing I have yet to see (or seen in any serious attempt) is anyone actually post and discuss various stats for these upgrades.

So lets have a civil go, shall we?

First off, we need somewhere to start. Characters are fairly straight forward and simple, so lets start here.

Here is my take on fixing Abby:

Cons: High base cost compared to newer codex hero's, has the ability to neuter himself on a bad roll, not near as tough as he once was compared to newer characters.

Abaddon

(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Undivided)

Cost: 250 Points

Wargear: Termi Ar, Personal Icon, Drach'nyen, Talon Of Horus

Special Rules: Fearless, IC,

Mark Of Chaos Ascendant:
*Insert Fluff here*
Abby counts as haveing every chaos mark. Thus gets every chaos mark bonus (include in profile).

The Gods Have A Plan:
Abby has been chosen by all four chaos gods, and his uncanny ability to walk away from horiffic battles without a scratch on him is proof that they are protecting him so he can fight another day.

Gives Abby a 3+ inv save (which includes the MOT +1) and makes him immune to instant death and all psychic attacks/effects.

Drach'nyen and Talon Of Horus:
*Insert Fluff*
The effect of these two weapons combined means that Abby counts as being equiped with a daemon weapon (+D6 attacks) that doubles his strength instead of the normal +1, and may re roll failed "To Wound" rolls in combat. Talon Of Horus has a built in bolter of Ancient Design and in the shooting phase may be fired useing the following profile:
Range 12, Str 4, AP 5, assault 3

Legendary Warmaster:
*Insert Fluff*
Abbys daemon weapon on a roll of 1 doesn't attack him. Instead he may only attack with his base attacks and gets no additional attacks that turn as he grapples with control of the weapon. Also even the sight of the Warmaster striding toward them across the battlefield is enough to make grown men cower in fear. All enemy Leadership checks within 12 inches of the warmaster are at -1.

Discuss away.

Abaddon doesn't need anything else. He's an obnoxiously good SC as is.


We need to go back to our roots. USE THE 3RD EDITION CODEX if you're unhappy with what we have. I own one. Best purchase I've ever made. Other than Rhino's being 50 points, the codex was amazing.


I want:
Moar daemons
Storm Bolters
Every model in a havoc squad can take a special weapon, not just three of them.
Land raiders with some sort of POTMS
An 'armoury'
Veterans can take anything from the armoury^^^^Like 3rd....


Chaos Lords should be able to take more than one mark too. I see no reason why a Chaos Lord shouldn't be able to pledge himself to Khorne and Nurgle...Or khorne and tzeentch...whatever you want..Also CHAOS MARKS! would I pay 40 points for another toughness? Maybe 10 points or so.NOT 50!


Aspiring champions should only be like 5 points more than a regular guy..An extra attack is not worth that much.

There are so many problems.....It's not worth complaining about.

Samus_aran115 wrote:
Chaos Lords should be able to take more than one mark too. I see no reason why a Chaos Lord shouldn't be able to pledge himself to Khorne and Nurgle...Or khorne and tzeentch...whatever you want..Also CHAOS MARKS! would I pay 40 points for another toughness? Maybe 10 points or so.NOT 50!

There's a very good reason why you can't take more than one mark, and it's becuse the 4 gods of chaos dont like each other very much and are constantly struggling amongst themselfs for power. If a Chaos Marines tried to pledge himself to both Khorne and Tzeentch at the same time he'd probably be destroyed for his folly (nevermind that tzeentch and khorne HATES each other most of all gods).

I know your trying to keep on topic with SC's,So I dont want to try to throgh off the thread to much. I did write up some new Chaos Vehicle rules. You can check them out here.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/287518.page#1460075

Limbo wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:
Chaos Lords should be able to take more than one mark too. I see no reason why a Chaos Lord shouldn't be able to pledge himself to Khorne and Nurgle...Or khorne and tzeentch...whatever you want..Also CHAOS MARKS! would I pay 40 points for another toughness? Maybe 10 points or so.NOT 50!

There's a very good reason why you can't take more than one mark, and it's becuse the 4 gods of chaos dont like each other very much and are constantly struggling amongst themselfs for power. If a Chaos Marines tried to pledge himself to both Khorne and Tzeentch at the same time he'd probably be destroyed for his folly (nevermind that tzeentch and khorne HATES each other most of all gods).

That's true....Khorne does indeed hate everyone.

I wish they still had the minor gods fluff. Like ma'lal, the god of spikes. He was way awesome.

svendrex wrote:Just elite for obilterators

Actually with an iron warriors Lord and Character you could have maximum 4 vindicators, 5 Havoc squads, and 3 Obliterators

This is horse flop. It's what ruined the last codex, and it'll ruin all credibility on this one. Why not JUST take havocs or oblits as troops. Neither are particularly overpowered as they stand. The havocs will be just as good as ig vets, and the blits will lose in melee something fierce. Seriously, do not dick us on this proposed codex IW.

Abaddon is abundantly terrible currently and under the new rules I actually might take him at some point.

Although I entirely agree the third edition dex is where we should start, hell if we fixed all the problems it had we'd make a solid codex, I'll make another thread so we can discuss fixing that while this one can try to save that abortion of a new one.(Not worth it imho)


(Also bedamned censoring.)

Huron Blackheart needs a new model. The current one is an abomination.

some interesting idea's here guys, but try to rember too many rules clutter up a codex.

as to iron warrions, im suprised no one considered just giving them +1 to any builings cover save AND defensive grenades across the board.

this oblits as troops is simply a bad idea, 54 twin linked heavy bolter shots a turn vs Orks or Nids? or 18 lascannon vs mech guard? and this is just the troops, you can add another 9 oblits for elites in bigger games, add in the proposed T6 that someone said? no justification can condone the vast exodus of tourny players that WILL run this list

Lord (iron warrior)
80

Troops
3 oblits
3oblits
3oblits
3oblits
3oblits

Elites
1 oblit
1 oblit
1 oblit

Work within the limitations - I think this sounds very OP with Oblits or Havocs.

What I could accept would be something minor like CSM for Iron Warriors being able to take 2 HW instead of 1 SW and 1 SW/HW for squad of 10. This would increase the HW even allowing squads of 5 with 1 HW. Not OP but allowing for their specialization.

Allowing oblits as Elites or possibly allowing any current Heavy choice as a replacement for Fast Attack would set the tone of an iron warrior army without the straight jacket
of moving anything around.

18 models? I can take on that

DAaddict wrote:Work within the limitations - I think this sounds very OP with Oblits or Havocs.

What I could accept would be something minor like CSM for Iron Warriors being able to take 2 HW instead of 1 SW and 1 SW/HW for squad of 10. This would increase the HW even allowing squads of 5 with 1 HW. Not OP but allowing for their specialization.

Allowing oblits as Elites or possibly allowing any current Heavy choice as a replacement for Fast Attack would set the tone of an iron warrior army without the straight jacket
of moving anything around.

+1 to this idea. Personally I reckon all legion rules can be easily implemented via some sort of low weight modification to the troop slot in the same fashion as the Vanilla Marines codex.

Iron Warriors Lord = 2X HW CSM battle squads
Night Lords HQ = Raptor Troops
Alpha Legion lord = Able to use Chaos cultists
Word Bearers HQ = something to do with daemons
Khorne HQ= Berserker troops
Tzeetnch HQ= Tsons troops
Nurgle HQ= Plague Marine troops
Slaanesh HQ= Noise marine troops
Black Legion HQ = Able to take 0-2 Legion/Cult specific troop choices

Cultists were all the rage last edition because Alpha Legion could use an abundance of chosen and normal squads with infiltrate. So you'd have the little dudes running amuck backed by very powerful squads of traitor marines.

Alpha Legion should follow the example by having chosen as troops(in the very least otherwise 60% of your force deploys way back with unsupported cultists eating bullets). Or give the Chaos Space Marine codex entry infiltrate for a point a model or something, though chosen as troops makes far more sense.

TYPHUS:
(Same Base Stats, but make him true T5)
(Patron God: Nurgle)

Cost: 205 Pts

KHARN:
(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Khorne)

Cost: 165 Pts

Cons: Same as above. He is pretty solid right now with how he is. The only thing I could think of doing is maybe giving him the chaos version of Artificer Armor thus upping him to a 2+ save base. This of course would increast his base point cost a little bit. (thinking 175 pts)

AHRIMAN:
(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Tzeentch)

Cost: 240 Pts

Cons: He is supposed to be the best psyker known, and compared to the new loyalist psykers... he sucks. How can we fix this? I feel that if we give him better spells, more selection, and the ability to protect his side from enemy psykers would make him very attractive to players.

Master Of Sorcery: Allows him the ability to cast any spell in the Chaos Codex. (will be updated later when I hit on the chaos spells)

The Black Staff Of Ahriman: Same as before But add the line "Also whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of Ahriman, On a D6 roll of 4+ that power is ignored.

Inferno Bolts: Same as Before

Helm Of Eternal Silence: Any unit that Ahriman joins gains immunity to ALL psychic spells and weapons.

I appreciate the enthusiasm shown by so many people here and their myriad of ideas, however the Op has suggested that rather than employing such a wide scattergun approach to the codex, a more measured and logical procession through the codex would be better.
In that spirit :

I like most of the Abaddon stuff, I would simply clarify him as having eternal warrior, and I would also have him grant fearless to any squad he joins as well..that's always been a bug bear of mine of him currently.

When I looked at doing something like this I took some inspiration from the ork codex and the idea that certain selections "unlocked" or moved a ( single) unit from one slot to another. To this end how about Abaddon being taken as an HQ choice allows a single unit of Chaos Chosen ( including terminators assuming we're leaving them as a single option ) to be allowed to be taken as a troops choice. This represents the hardened inner core of veterans he keeps close as his praetorian guard/people he needs to keep an eye on.

I'd be tempted to follow up on this idea some what : so a Night Lords HQ might allow 1 unit of raptors as a troops choice, an IW guy might unlock a Vindicator/basilisk/obliterators as a troops choice and so on.

Fabius looks like he's going in the right direction. Given what we learn in the DE codex I think "borrowing" ideas from their codex is a good idea indeed. I might be tempted to have as an option units of disfigured mutant monsters as a unit as well.

Kharn I don't think fits as an HQ choice -- same as Lucius. I think they should both in fact be upgrade characters for their unit types.

I agree Ahriman needs some kind of psychic hood..I'd be tempted to go all out and simply claim his Black Staff is in fact a corrupted Space Wolf Rune priest staff and follow the rules for that -- ie it can dispel psychic p[owers and "magical" shooting attacks with X distance on a 4+/whatever.

I'd also be tempted to give him some rerolling capability in some fashion or other.. bit like Corbulo. I might even go so far as to give him 1 reroll per player turn.

If Typhus is raising his price, might he raise his Invul to a 4+?

As psychic abilities have increased in lethality, the weakness of chaos sorcerers to me is they have no anti-psychic.

Bugs, Eldar: Passive 3d6 makes success less likely.
SW, SM, etc: Rune Staff and Psychic Hood shut down psychic abilities.

I would like to see chaos sorcerers go to a more active anti-psycher role - something like a 24" range eldar mind war against anyone using a psychic ability. Maybe limit it to causing an equivalent of a warp attack normally reserved to a failure. So it only causes 1 wound and can be saved by some invulnerable (rerolled) or ghost helm.

Librarians can now cast two spells a turn which in itself leaves chaos sorcerers in the dust. This ability somewhat redresses that by making it dangerous to count on psychic abilities when a chaos sorcerer - a vessel of the warp - is nearby.

So to go on that, Ahriman packing this ability, a 4+ rune staff negate and then casting two or more spells is quite disgusting. One I would suggest for him would be a permanently up Warptime. No roll for success, it is automatic just like Typhus with Nurgle spells.

Hmm, I like your idea on kharne and lucius Reds8n..So you're saying they can be sort of like aspiring champions for their respective cult unit?

The only problem I can see with that is that people would abuse Kharne in almost every list without even having to waste a slot on him. Right now, it's usually a toss-up between Kharne and a DP, or two DPs. Having all three might be a little over-powered, even if kharne is tied down to a unit of berserkers.


Othewise, it seems like a great idea, and makes a little more sense. It's sort of like the IG model, where you can have random dudes join your Company Command squads and stuff.

Almost, I was thinking more along the lines of some of the Space Wolf characters. But I think it would be reasonable to restrict it so you can only have them or a regular champion in the unit, not both.

Kharn doesn't really strike me as being more powerful/useful than *blankshisname* the Wolfguard guy with the thunderhammer.

And neither Kharn or Lucius kind of scream leader -- in the tactical sense anyway -- to me. Being a bit too frenzied/bloodthirsty and...twisted and out there respectively.

Regarding chaos sorcorors:

I've been thinking for the longest time that (fluff wise and game wise) they have been completely forgotten. To make it more realistic:

Remembering that a chaos god would not be too keen to let one of his minions kill another of his minions, and PoTW is... getting mindraped by a daemon... Chaos sorcorors are considered to have a 2++ ONLY FOR PoTW TESTS!
And they don't need to reroll sucessfull tests (maybe can even reroll failed tests?)

Ofcourse, better spells, I.E. Crazy chaos mindrape -sorceror locates an enemy psyker, and sends a bolt of psychic energy at him/her. this psychic energy attracts sentinent beings in the warp to the enemy psycher, making drawing on the power of the warp incredubly dangerous for a shor time. model must take psychic tests on 4D6 for the entirity of its next turn.

Power of Chaos!:
Sorceror ALWAYS takes psychic tests on 2D6 regardless of other special rules, etc.

I like the Power of Chaos boost.

How about a passive ability ala psychic hood.

Vessel of the Warp:
Any opponent attempting to cast a spell and within 24" of a chaos sorcerer will suffer a perils result on any roll of doubles. This takes a perils result from 1 in 18 to 1 in 6. Even more vicious if some thing allows or forces 3d6 for a psychic test. (Shadow or Runes of Witnessing)

Abaddon Upgraded.

Abaddon: If anyone would be willing to un-clutter his Legendary Warmaster skill and make it more slimlined, that would be great.

Kharn: The only problem I see with makeing him a squad upgrade, is that people lose the choice to run him single so he doesn't slaughter his own men. Thoughts?

Ahriman: I do not have the space puppy codex handy, so if someone would be willing be willing to write something up like Red suggested, I would be willing to post it. Also an interesting idea... stealing an idea from WFB, what if his staff instead of giving a re-roll, generated a D6 each player turn that went into a pool and could be used to boost any psychic test.. either for casting, or for psychic hood ect ect.

Now, I really like Power of Chaos and Vessel of the Warp. Now what if, instead of giving these to a special character, we made is a Tzeench special rule for any psyker with his mark?
This would really boost Thousand Sons and make them a much needed anti psyker army to balance out some of the power creep.

Something I havent seen or heard yet regarding Tzeentch and psyker powers is the idea of unit buffs.

Fluff often talks about how the dark gods would bless choosen warriors and what not. Is it to far fetched to have Ahriman be able to cast spells on friendly units? I was thinking about a variance of powers one of them being akin to re-rolling to hit when shooting, or +2 attacks on the turn said unit charges instead of +1.

Here's an idea I had for a psychic power:

*name left intentionally blank*
Make a psychic test before your shooting phase. If you pass, choose a unit within 24' of the caster. This unit raises it's ballistic skill by one for the remainder of the turn.

Something to do with tzeentch, I guess. Or just undivided chaos. I was thinking it would be pretty useful to use on campy units, like Havocs, or Obliterators.

What do you guys think? I'm sorry if this "Off topic' concerning what you guys are talking about now.

jp400 wrote:Abaddon Upgraded.

Abaddon: If anyone would be willing to un-clutter his Legendary Warmaster skill and make it more slimlined, that would be great.

Kharn: The only problem I see with makeing him a squad upgrade, is that people lose the choice to run him single so he doesn't slaughter his own men. Thoughts?

and.. Khorne cares not from where the blood flows ! I did consider making a squad of either 8 or 16 berzerkers a retinue for him..but I think that might be a bit much and..well..he doesn't need to hide. I think it would be fine if it was simply stated that ( with him still being an IC still) he has to deploy/arrive with the berzerkers but after that he can indeed wander off and do his own thing..perhaps even to the relief of his brethren.

No love for a unit of chosen/whatever as a troops choice if you take Abaddon then ?

Ahriman: I do not have the space puppy codex handy, so if someone would be willing be willing to write something up like Red suggested, I would be willing to post it. Also an interesting idea... stealing an idea from WFB, what if his staff instead of giving a re-roll, generated a D6 each player turn that went into a pool and could be used to boost any psychic test.. either for casting, or for psychic hood etc etc.

The book reads : "Whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer,roll a dice -- on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified."

There's some stuff about wounding demons on a 2+ but I think we can live without that.

Now, I really like Power of Chaos and Vessel of the Warp. Now what if, instead of giving these to a special character, we made is a Tzeench special rule for any psyker with his mark?
This would really boost Thousand Sons and make them a much needed anti psyker army to balance out some of the power creep.

I agree the sorcerers need something.
I think the "power of chaos" rule is workable, it still leaves them a chance of failing -- you can't trust the chaos gods too much after all.

I think the vessel idea is kinda cool, but might be a bit too much of a nerf.. unless we maybe make that an option for the sorcerer to buy ? It could be some arcane item or somesuch and goes some way towards helping make the sorcerer's more of a supporting unit rather than simply a less effective version of the lord/s.

Oh, perhaps we should do this now :

The army as a whole -- characters excluded

HQ :
Demon prince
Chaos Lord
Chaos Sorcerer -- maybe have the option of 2 levels/options here ?
Special characters

Elites :
Chaos Chosen
Chaos terminators -- I've split these as I think it would be cool for chaos lords to unlock a unit of chosen as a troops choice, Abaddon allowing a unit of termies as one --"Justarian" or whatever they were called.
Possessed -- maybe if you have a top tier sorcerer 1 unit of these as a troops choice ? Nod towards WB and the like here perhaps.
Chaos Dreads -- might go in heavy..but that's crowded already.

Troops :
Chaos marines
The 4 cult units.
Cultists -- "free" force org choices -- maybe an Alpha Legion character could make them scoring/similar.

Heavy :
Oblits.
Predators
Vindicators
Land Raiders
Defilers
Havocs

Fast :
Raptors
bikes

????

Needs something here ? Chaos speeders ? Attack bikes ? Something new ?

I'd be tempted to keep daemons as they are.. except allow you buy a mark for them that alters their profile(s).

This same mark would also be available to non cult units as well ; something like Khorne -- +1A and FC. Nurgle +1T and FnP, Tz. +1 ++ save ( or a 5+ basic invuln) and AP3 inferno shells ( not sure about this one ?) Slaanesh +1I and..fleet ?

I appreciate I've ignored my own advice here and gone slightly OT, but I think a skeleton to hang the meat on is a useful thing perhaps.

Just to note somthing, making Abbandons gun rapid fire or assault makes no difference, he has terminator armour, and is therefor granted the 'Relentless' special rule.

Also I'd make the bolter 18" range, but then again thats just me thinking an anceint super bolter, with the range of a pistol is a bad idea.

Also, why not give the Chaos some scout type subsitiute, I can espically see the Alpha Legion deploying snipers into a tower, to kill enemy commanders at the precise moment to cause optimal moral devistation.

reds8n wrote: No love for a unit of chosen/whatever as a troops choice if you take Abaddon then?

I actually missed this somehow.
What about if we change this slightly, and instead of allowing a special troop choice, take a line from the last codex and give him the option to take a chosen termi bodyguard at no FOC slot makeup?

reds8n wrote: The book reads : "Whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer,roll a dice -- on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified."

Sounds good and I like it. Consider it added.

**EDIT**
Just had an idea, what if instead of the power being nullfied, the user suffers a perils of the warp instead?

reds8n wrote: I agree the sorcerers need something.
I think the "power of chaos" rule is workable, it still leaves them a chance of failing -- you can't trust the chaos gods too much after all.

I think the vessel idea is kinda cool, but might be a bit too much of a nerf.. unless we maybe make that an option for the sorcerer to buy ? It could be some arcane item or somesuch and goes some way towards helping make the sorcerer's more of a supporting unit rather than simply a less effective version of the lord/s.

So can we agree on the following:
Vassel Of The Warp is a mutation upgrade restricted to MOT sorcerers for lets say 15 pts (?)
Power Of Chaos now counts as a MOT benefit on sorcerers that take it.

I feel that the above is both pretty slick, fluffy, and adds some flavor to certain chaos builds.

As for Chaos scouts, I feel that this roll could be filld by bringing back cultists.

Hey, I was intending (and have been for a long time) to propose a Chaos Space Marine fandex but wanted to see what people wanted from the Codex and luckily I've stumbled upon this.
I still intend to create my fandex - although maybe not right now as that could clutter up the forum - however I'll throw my hat into the ring and leave a few comments.
Note: I intend to play Devil's Advocate here, a lot of the stuff I've seen suggested has been over-powered or too 'out there' IMHO.

jp400 wrote:TYPHUS:
(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Nurgle)

Cost: 205 Pts

Cons: Other then being slightly over cost, I have to admit that I can't seem to find anything really wrong with him stat wise. That and I have not heard many people complain about him.

The main - and understandably so - complaint I see about Typhus is his lack of immunity to instant death. You'd have this 4 wound, T5, 2+ charaacter who'd get bopped by a random power-fist. I'd say keep his current points but give him eternal warrior. He's been around since the heresy after-all.

KHARN:
(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Khorne)

Cost: 165 Pts

Cons: Same as above. He is pretty solid right now with how he is. The only thing I could think of doing is maybe giving him the chaos version of Artificer Armor thus upping him to a 2+ save base. This of course would increast his base point cost a little bit. (thinking 175 pts)

This seems like a fair idea. Does he have a slight invulnerable save atm (can't remember right now) but a 5++ or something could be suitable. Reds8n's idea of possible upgrade to squad has some weight to it, though I'd argue he's enough of a character to warrant his own HQ slot.

AHRIMAN:
(Same Base Stats)
(Patron God: Tzeentch)

Cost: 240 Pts

Cons: He is supposed to be the best psyker known, and compared to the new loyalist psykers... he sucks. How can we fix this? I feel that if we give him better spells, more selection, and the ability to protect his side from enemy psykers would make him very attractive to players.

Master Of Sorcery: Allows him the ability to cast any spell in the Chaos Codex. (will be updated later when I hit on the chaos spells)

The Black Staff Of Ahriman: Same as before But add the line "Also whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of Ahriman, On a D6 roll of 4+ that power is ignored.

Inferno Bolts: Same as Before

Helm Of Eternal Silence: Any unit that Ahriman joins gains immunity to ALL psychic spells and weapons. Also counts as a psychic hood.

You've got a psychic hood in effect within the black staff. Maybe immunity to ALL is a bit OP IMHO. 4+ chance of ignoring psychic powers/force weapons is more reasonable in my opinion.

I will have my revenge: Ahriman to this day still holds an unrelenting hatred for the Space Wolfs for the destruction of Prospero and its vast holdings of great and powerfull artifacts from the great crusade.

If Ahriman is fighting Space Puppies, he gains preferred enemy USR and bestows it upon any Thousnad Sons CSM in the army.

I'd argue this to be slightly unfair. Not only does this only affect a single army - and is hence a bit unbalanced (as is the idea of Preferred enemy against Codex Marines!) - but it doesn't make sense for the opposing army to not have the same rule. Notice it's not included in the Space Wolf Codex either? I'd leave this behind IMHO.
Also, Ahriman doesn't hate the Space Puppies so much, he's really pissed at the Eldar for screwing up his plans with the black library...
You may wish to replace a rule with something akin to Veil Of Darkness (Necrons) as I recall a similar white dwarf rule in the past for aspiring sorcerers?

reds8n wrote: I appreciate the enthusiasm shown by so many people here and their myriad of ideas, however the Op has suggested that rather than employing such a wide scattergun approach to the codex, a more measured and logical procession through the codex would be better.
In that spirit :

I like most of the Abaddon stuff, I would simply clarify him as having eternal warrior, and I would also have him grant fearless to any squad he joins as well..that's always been a bug bear of mine of him currently.

When I looked at doing something like this I took some inspiration from the ork codex and the idea that certain selections "unlocked" or moved a ( single) unit from one slot to another. To this end how about Abaddon being taken as an HQ choice allows a single unit of Chaos Chosen ( including terminators assuming we're leaving them as a single option ) to be allowed to be taken as a troops choice. This represents the hardened inner core of veterans he keeps close as his praetorian guard/people he needs to keep an eye on.

This is a much better and fairer rule than allowing all termies as troops. It's bad enough that the Space Wolves can do this, it should really only be the Deathwing IMHO. Even so, a squad of termies as troops is much more reasonable and fluffy. Black Legion isn't known for it's terminator armour.

jp400 wrote:Abaddon Upgraded.

Abaddon: If anyone would be willing to un-clutter his Legendary Warmaster skill and make it more slimlined, that would be great.

You incarnation of Abaddon is very much over-powered in my opinion. Whilst he is over-priced in his current codex, in your incarnation he's cheaper (than Logan, Mephiston, Njal, Sanguinor and more too) than he was before but is now MUCH better?! He doesn't need to re-roll wound; he's strength 8. I'm also unsure about the 3++. I like what you did with the bolter and that he actually does something to his force, however he's supposed to be a daemon in combat and he really is. Particularly with his Daemon Weapon sorted (good move there). In his current incarnation he trounces Ghazzy let alone anything else. 250pts really is much too cheap for him now. His current points cost is much more suitable, maybe even more with a 3++. Seriously. Otherwise, good ideas.

Ahriman: I do not have the space puppy codex handy, so if someone would be willing be willing to write something up like Red suggested, I would be willing to post it. Also an interesting idea... stealing an idea from WFB, what if his staff instead of giving a re-roll, generated a D6 each player turn that went into a pool and could be used to boost any psychic test.. either for casting, or for psychic hood ect ect.

Kind of cool idea about the 'pool' but is difficult to work and Ahriman really, really has enough special rules and abilities in your current incarnation of him...

Now, I really like Power of Chaos and Vessel of the Warp. Now what if, instead of giving these to a special character, we made is a Tzeench special rule for any psyker with his mark?
This would really boost Thousand Sons and make them a much needed anti psyker army to balance out some of the power creep.

I believe the Power of Chaos rule is a bit unnecasery. Correct me if I'm wrong but it's only Eldar that will change how many dice you roll on and ELDAR ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE BEST PSYKERS IN 40K.
Vessel of the Warp also seems a bit OTT to me, Chaos is more aggressive than defensive and this is slightly over-powered too. By all means add some Psyker protection - always use protection - but they shouldn't be so powerful, particularly in defense.

I admit, Blood Angels, Space Wolf and Imperial Guard codices are similarly over-the-top and over-powered but it wouldn't excuse the Chaos Codex being the same way. Dark Eldar seem fairly balanced and don't have the abilities to do everything and destroy everyone as many of these Chaos Codex opinions seem to lean towards.
Obviously just my opinion, but I'm just trying to help and balance things. I want the Chaos Codex to be good too but I don't want the sun (eye of terror?) to shine out of it's mutated buttocks.

Hope that helps, Dave.

I agree we don't need scouts, I've never read anything about chaos marines using them, and that sort of structured training is a bit too "formal", cultists/whatever can fill that sort of role.

Let's go with that for the sorceror for the moment, we can always tweak it later, and I'm quite pro adding a few more wargear/arcane items for them to use as well.

Typhus being T5 protects him from most ID, i did wonder about letting him regenrate Ws from casualties caused by his psychic power(s) perhaps ? If we keep nurgles rot as an option, with a low S and no AP, i think it would be cool to have him "feed" off of the decay he causes.

Personally I don't think Kharn cuts it as an HQ. I do think his always hit on a 2+ needs to go, but I think soemthing like Ragnars extra A per casualty rule would be cool. I would also like to give him complete immunity to any and all psychic powers, with this benefit being spread to any Khorne aligned unit he is with.. the affect not applying to Ics who join the unit.

I think the issue with the slot free unit is that any such unit is likely to be quite pricey, and therfeore not of much use in a lot of games.

All loyal Librarians have Psychic Hood. Any Farseer can take Runes of Warding. I don't want to limit Chaos Sorerer's to be MOT to get Vessel of Chaos. All Chaos Sorcs should have it. It is the reason to take a Sorcerer instead of a Lord or Daemon Prince. Sure the Daemon Prince is a MC and can cast spells but he does not offer any psychic deterrent.

I don't mind Ahriman getting a warped Rune Staff 4+ dispell (or even 3+) but don't give it as a general option to anyone. The psychic defense of Chaos is well served by psychers killing themselves 1/6 of the time by using their abilities. I know this doesn't stop or make enemies' chance of success any less but somehow the chaos lure of power (using their abilities) causing them to be killed just feels like a true chaos "defence."

The issue with Typhus I believe is that he is T4(5) and not T5. I reckon making him a true T5 in his base profile should protect him against most str8 ID attempts.

This would be a good way to separate him from a "regular" Nurgle lord who would be only T4(5).

candy.man wrote:The issue with Typhus I believe is that he is T4(5) and not T5. I reckon making him a true T5 in his base profile should protect him against most str8 ID attempts.

This would be a good way to separate him from a "regular" Nurgle lord who would be only T4(5).

This. I believe this to be a much better addition to Typhus IMHO.

reds8n wrote: I agree we don't need scouts, I've never read anything about chaos marines using them, and that sort of structured training is a bit too "formal", cultists/whatever can fill that sort of role.

Definitely. Cultists or whatnot will suit Chaos really well, Scouts much less so...

reds8n wrote: Personally I don't think Kharn cuts it as an HQ. I do think his always hit on a 2+ needs to go, but I think soemthing like Ragnars extra A per casualty rule would be cool. I would also like to give him complete immunity to any and all psychic powers, with this benefit being spread to any Khorne aligned unit he is with.. the affect not applying to Ics who join the unit.

I'm still not sure. He's definitely not so much the leader 'type' these days (although he was like 1st Captain in HH), but he's still a pretty damn big character, there's definitely a compelling argument for him as a Bezerker-upgrade but I'm not sold on it yet TBH.
I like his hitting on 2+, after all Khorne is all about martial prowess and killing and this is Kharn we're talking about. I think the Saga of the Warrior Born type idea is also very good and really suits Kharn/Khorne, however on the other hand I don't think he should really be benefitting units he's with. To me, Kharn is a one man killing machine (who should, yes, be immune to all Psychic Powers), but I don't think he's really the kind of guy to provide unit buffs, but maybe that's just me?

I want to give the unit buff to make it less of a no brainer with regards to splitting him off from the squad : if he stays, sure that squad aint getting mindzapped but every 1 you roll is a potential casualty from your own squad as well.

Plus it also fixes or avoids one of the current rules loopholes/arguments about him and squads as well.

The hitting on a 2+ thing bugs the hell out of me : Why is he a better combatant than the Eldar Avatar ?

Typhus at T5 I think is fair, do people think it might be alright to make all plague marines just a basic T5 instead 4(5) ? They are pretty resilient as they are I guess..might be a bit much ?

True, that's a very good point. Maybe something like Immunity for Kharn and 'protection' (ie. 4+) for his squad? I guess thinking about it, compared to the force-hoods that are being suggested, Khorne armies maybe should have more psychic defence after all? I completely agree though, forcing decisions is always good.

I think the hitting on a 2+ suits Kharn well, I think it's more a problem with the Avatar than Kharn. Many things seem to out-class the Avatar in combat which I agree, just isn't fair... Maybe 3+ and the wound=attack bonus?

I have to admit, I think that's maybe a bit much, as you said? I think Typhus being T5 is definitely a good idea, but Plague Marines are good as they are, just maybe need dropping a point or two each?

Lots of good ideas though Red!

I had some ideas and posted a thread a few weeks ago:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/321110.page

Let me know what you think?

I have to agree. Kharn's 2+ isn't really a problem with him, so much as the Avatar needs to be completly reworked in my eyes.

Sorry for the lack of updates, been a busy weekend.

I realize he is long in the past on this thread, but I have something I would like to add to Abby.
The bolter on the Talon of Horus, why not make it to where he can shoot in close combat? I mean it is connected to the Talon and it makes sense.
OR
Have him be able to shoot int he next turns shooting phase, can shoot X amount of times. X is the number of models that he himself has killed.
Think Megatron in TF2(i know lame reference)

Just a note on difilers: they should be able to take marks or be upgradable to cult machines (blood slaughter, blight drone.... ect)

Thanks for the link to this post, yeah, would didn't think to search, would have saved me some time, lol... Anehoo, I'm going to go with the flow of the post and just discuss HQ's for the time being, as that seems to be the trend, I'll post the rest of my ideas later.

I agree so far with many of the posts made, including the fact that the mark system needs to be redone a wee bit.

As far as special characters goes, I think the great majority of them are fine the way they are, though I do like the proposed changes to abbadon, and Ahriman.

I for one think Lucius needs 1 thing, something better than a normal PW (I know his unique thing is his whip, but that's pretty lame as far as "special" weapons go). Granted that's what makes him great because he's cheap, but I feel like a lord with a Blissgiver would outperform him most of the time for even less points. He doesn't need some game-ending weapon, because he's just suposed to be a personality, not some Uber-captain/lord...but he was obviously favored by Slaanesh enough to be made immortal, and he utilizes sonic weaponry so why not give him something unique? He should still be the "bargain character" in the mix, but even something as simple as saying his weapon was poisoned(4+) or something for 10 extra points on him /shrug.

Also...I think they need to focus on some of the other traitor chapters from the first founding, AlphaL, IW, WB and NL could use some love. Seeing as my army is mostly AlphaL (chosen), slaanesh, and nurgle, I could use Lucius or Typhus no prob, but I'd love something to represent as a Lord for my AL...I actually have a character, but no rules for him, I'll post back on that later.

Just a few thoughts I thunked

General CSM Rules

We Shall Teach Them Fear: All Models wishing to charge a Model with this rule must first pass a Ld check, if passed the combat continues as normal, if failed the attacking unit suffers -1 to hit modifier

Specific Traitor Legion Rules

World Bearers: Return of the Dark Apostle choice, May summon one unit of deamons from codex deamons (Troop choices only) per Aspiring Champion

Iron Legion: Return of the Warsmith, CSM units may take 1 additional Heavy weapon than normal, Have a basalisk as a heavy support option.

Alpha Legion: Let them use "Cultists" taken from the Penal Legion option, Secret Base: Nominate one peice of terrain outside opponents deployment zone and not within 12" of an enemy model any model coming in from reserve may do so from that terrain peice.

Black Legion: May take 1 unit of Chosen or Chosen Terminators as a Troop Choice, All CSM gain Fearless

Night Lords: May Take 1 unit of Raptors as a Troop Choice, Opponents in close combat with Night Lords -2 LD

You may have noticed I left out the 4 Main cult Legions, because I feel they are fairly well represented already, as another addendum, it might be nice to let CSM squads buy vetran skills again. Oh, and for gods sake let us just BUY upgrades for possessed instead of rolling on these rediculous tables.

Hi

I’ve thought of a balanced set of rules that would essentially implement legion rules in a new chaos codex. The ruleset is designed in the same fashion as combat tactics in the vanilla codex. For codex balance purposes, all cult marine units have a 0-1 limit. I've also designed a good ruleset for a retinue style unit. Both these rules were inspired by the 3.0 codex (not the 3.5 codex).

Legion Tactics
The following units have Legion Tactics in their profile:
• Khorne Berserkers
• Noise Marines
• Thousand Sons
• Plague Marines
• Chaos Space Marine Battlesquads (Vanilla CSM)
• Chaos Terminators

Legion Tactics (Mark of Khorne): The 0-1 limit on the Khorne Berserkers is removed if army contains HQ with the matching mark. You can only have 1 version of Legion tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Mark of Slaanesh): The 0-1 limit on the Noise Marines is removed if army contains HQ with the matching mark. You can only have 1 version of Legion tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Mark of Tzeentch): The 0-1 limit on the Thousand Sons is removed if army contains HQ with the matching mark. You can only have 1 version of Legion tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Mark of Nurgle): The 0-1 limit on the Plague Marines is removed if army contains HQ with the matching mark. You can only have 1 version of Legion tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Abaddon): Chaos terminators count as a troop choice if the army is led by Abaddon. You can only have 1 version of Legion tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

If a Chaos Lord does not purchase a Mark of Chaos, he can purchase one of the following variations of Legion Tactics for x points:
Legion Tactics (Infiltration): All Chaos Space Marine Battle Squads now have the infiltrators rule. You can only have 1 version of Legion Tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Siege Masters): Any heavy weapons carried by Chaos Space Marine Battle Squads count as being twin linked. You can only have 1 version of Legion Tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Daemon Cult): All squads count as being equipped with an icon for summoning purposes regardless if the unit has/hasn’t purchased an icon or lost it during a battle. You can only have 1 version of Legion Tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Legion Tactics (Fear Factor): All Chaos Space Marine Battle Squads now have the accute senses rule. Enemy units in an assault with a Chaos Space Marine Battle Squad suffer -1 to LD. You can only have 1 version of Legion Tactics in your entire army and if your army has access to more than one version of Legion Tactics, you must choose which one applies to your entire army.

Chaos Lord Retinue Rules
(Available to Chaos Lords and Special Characters)
The Chaos Lord has access to a different retinue depending on his Mark.
• MoK = Khorne Berserkers.
• MoS = Noise Marines
• MoT = Thousand Sons
• MoN = Plague Marines
• No Mark = Chosen (note: Chosen would not have the infiltrators rule in this incarnation and would have something like stubborn or fearless instead)

Any model in the Chaos retinue may purchase any upgrades normally restricted to the unit aspiring champion.

If the character is wearing terminator armour than all models in the unit may be given terminator armour at 15 points per model (note: all models must be upgraded to terminators). Any models given terminator armour replace their bolters, bolt pistols, CC weapons and frag/krak grenades with a power weapon and twin lined bolter. Any specialist wargear items such as blight grenades, inferno bolts and doom sirens are still retained. Models in terminator armour replace their usual wargear options with that of a chaos terminator.

Soemone ealier mentioned that Lucius and Kharn dont really fit as HQs, and i agree.

but i think makign a character that potent a unti upgrade doesn't fit either.

How aboutmakgin some characters Elites with a 0-1 restriction? So Lucius would be a stand alone Character but woudl take up an Elites slot? In this way you could have people liek Lucius and Kharn...maybe other "support" or "personality" units in the army btu still have a specific HQ elsewhere. For example: Chaos "leuitenant units" (I'm thinking a Lords second or lackey sort of thing). A Warsmith might have his favoured Lt who has little things that elevate them above the rank and file troops (a servo-arm in this case). A Word Bearers Apostle could have arranged fo their favourite captain to be "gifted" by a warp creature..

Just brain storming to myself really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I see the legion tactics above. For the Siege Masters rule, maybe rather than making them TL, grant the ability to reroll scatter on Ordnance weapons?

I had thought of that as well as other things that would affect the heavy support slots or heavy support units in general however I could not think of anything that could be abused like the previous dex or like Vulkan is now (twin linking all melta, flame and hammers army wide is ridiculously broken and a steal at 190 points). Also the issue with having an ability focused on ordinance weapons is that it kind of forces an Iron Warrior’s player to take Vindicators/Defilers (which 90% of Iron Warriors players most likely would but the other 10% much take other heavy support options such as Preds/Landraiders/Oblits instead).

All of the abilities above are based upon the chapter tactics abilities that the loyalists have. It is interesting that the Imperial Fists don’t have a siege based ability (or an attack based ability like Salamanders) and yet Imperial Fists player’s don’t seem to mind and seem to be content with the Stubborn ability.

According to my research, Iron Warriors pre-heresy, were siege masters but they were also specialists who could operate in small numbers. They would be split up into very small numbers and deployed all over whenever a siege was needed. It would be common for 1-2 squads would maintain an entire fortress. This was the inspiration for my idea and the thought that even a lone heavy weapon in an isolated tactical squad could be deadly if they were Iron Warriors.

The bottom line is that there needs to be some sort of incentive for an Iron Warriors player to take a heavy weapon in their tactical squads over dual special weapons rather than increase the incentive to take more mech in a mech heavy environment (there’s plenty incentive for that already). It is not that fluffy for an Iron Warriors player to choose an assault weapon over a heavy weapon whenever possible. Iron Warrior tactics should always something along the lines of deploying fire support squads in cover whilst crush their opponents in a wall of armour rather than the current tactic of popping tanks with melta + assaulting the leftovers with a power fist that the current book encourages.

Anyway, sorry for the long post but I hope this sheds some light into my decision making.

+1 to candy.man's train of thought.

There is currently no reason at all for chaos marines to take a heavy weapon when they cost more than loyalist weapons and make them less effective. Giving chaos a buff for heavy weapons gives chaos marines a different dimension, rather than the usuall double melta rhino rush or double plasma plague marine spam. Giving Iron Warriors a benefit to ordnance weapons is also a big plus in my mind. This makes defilers and vindicators worth their cost.

Candy.man has it on point. Agree with everything he said, except I think siege masters should grant havoc units with 5BS as well as twin-linked weapons.

I probably won’t give them BS5 as it would make them too good. From a game play perspective, few rank and file units are ever given BS5 and I don’t think that is going to change. From a fluff perspective, Iron Warriors appear to be the masters of siege warfare and associated tactics and but not necessarily having better aim/accuracy than other marines. I believe it’s a case of the Iron Warriors being smarter but not necessarily physically superior.

I’m a bit hesitant about giving havocs the twin linked ability as well as if havocs were to be costed as cheaply as BA Devastators or Space Wolf Long Fangs, it would result in pretty much the same negative uproar that Long Fang spam created (Iron Warrior Players would probably start spamming twin Linked autocannon death on everyone). I would suspect that. Perhaps if Chaos Havocs were priced the same as the Vanilla Space Marine book and not as ultra cheap as Long Fangs, there might not be too much of an issue to give Chaos Havocs, siege masters.

Vanilla Marine Codex costing
• Heavy bolter, multi melta, missile launcher: 15 points
• Plasma Cannon: 25 points
• Lascannon: 35 points

Long Fangs costings
• Heavy Bolter: 5 points
• Missile launcher and multi melta: 10 points
• Plasma Cannon: 20 points
• Lascannon: 25 points

Proposed Chaos Havocs costings
• Flamer, sonic blaster (slaanesh only): 5 points
• Heavy Bolter, melta gun: 10 points
• Missile launcher, plasma gun and autocannon: 15 points
• Blastmaster (slaanesh only): 25 points
• Lascannon or: 30 points

@ Candyman

I stand corrected. Makes more sense now.

Not sure if a non Slaaneshi Havoc should be allowed to take a Sonic Weapon. I like where you are going with it though.

Maybe access to the Plasma Cannon and Multimelta would be cool?

/agree.

Sonic weaposn should be for Slaaneshi only. You will get peopel crying because their Nurgle/Khorne army doesn't et special stuff but thats life (Tzeentch-ists would be able to buy Inferno Bolts for AC and HBs i suppose)

Yeah, sonic weapons would be Slaanesh only. I added the weapons onto the list for lols. I'll update my previous post to reflect this.

As a side note, I felt Slaanesh havocs should get noise weapons so I added them. I also used a system of equivalency (with the 5th ed loyalist books as a template) where the blastmaster is filling in the empty gap normally filled by the plasma cannon in the loyalist books.

Lots of little updates. I think every character posted so far has been fiddled with to a small degree to bring more in line with suggestions.

candy.man wrote:

Vanilla Marine Codex costing
• Heavy bolter, multi melta, missile launcher: 15 points
• Plasma Cannon: 25 points
• Lascannon: 35 points

Long Fangs costings
• Heavy Bolter: 5 points
• Missile launcher and multi melta: 10 points
• Plasma Cannon: 20 points
• Lascannon: 25 points

Proposed Chaos Havocs costings
• Flamer, sonic blaster (slaanesh only): 5 points
• Heavy Bolter, melta gun: 10 points
• Missile launcher, plasma gun and autocannon: 15 points
• Blastmaster (slaanesh only): 25 points
• Lascannon or: 30 points

Not bad on proposal but I would prefer a little cheaper. Remember vanilla marines have a sgt that can grant BS 5 to one guy and Long Fangs can split fire. For me it is the combo of split fire and cheap cost that makes long fangs too OP. The vanilla ability means a vanilla dev with a MM or lascannon can almost guarantee one hit. The chaos havoc has no such advantage. Their one advantage is the better base leadership and the possible advantage of a mark which is lessened in the case of a havoc unit.

Modified Havocs:

> Flamer, Heavy Bolter 5 pts
> Melta gun 10 pts
> Missile launcher, Plasma, AC 15 pts
> Lascannon 25 pts.

Slannesh noise marines cost 5 pts over a standard CSM and have sonic blaster for free. Go back to the old codex for blast master, replacing an AC. A sonic blaster is nothing more than a suped up stormbolter. The payback is you also lose the bolt pistol and CCW so you do give up 1 CC attack for the superior fire of a sonic blaster.

Difference a Slaanesh Havoc unit of 9 with 4 blast masters costs 305. My way it costs 240. That is still not cheap but my arguement is give me a reason to field havocs instead of dakka preds, obliterators, vindicators or defilers. At 240, I would still question whether 4 blastmasters and 5 sonic blasters are superior to affording 3 dakka preds for a little more or 3 obliterators for a little less.

As far as Noise marines getting unfair advantages over others. I would beg to differ. Khorites are still masters of CC, 4++ save and AP3 bolter rounds are pretty good for Tzeentch, FNP and +1 T makes Nurgle the most resilient. Tzeetch could use cheaper sorcerers at least and berzerkers maybe recosting but the trade off of losing some CC power is enough of an offset for a sonic blaster.

I agree that noise marines need some more balance, and I think that BM's need to be cheaper and that they need to come with SB's standard, but I'm not sure taking away their ccw is the way to go.

If you look at them now they are decent at melee because they can deliver a large amount of fire (though nothing really stronger than a bolter and not including the DS that the champions field, I'm talking about the unit in general) and then charge into combat with 3A apiece and a champ with a pw. However, they lack the furious charge of the zerkers, and the weapon options of chosen (which I think need 2 attacks base btw). They are a decent cc unit who's biggest strength in cc is their I5. If you take away their ccw then you get a unit which is decent at shooting, sub par in melee, and you're wasting the I5 advantage in most cases.

As it stands, noise marines are somewhat versatile, but lack a lot of hitting power/survivability of the other pantheon units. They need balance, but if you go by the fluff they should be better in cc than most marines while delivering "unique" firepower options...not an easy thing to materialize effectively in the game without them being over/under powered or out of place.

candy.man wrote:

The bottom line is that there needs to be some sort of incentive for an Iron Warriors player to take a heavy weapon in their tactical squads over dual special weapons rather than increase the incentive to take more mech in a mech heavy environment (there’s plenty incentive for that already). It is not that fluffy for an Iron Warriors player to choose an assault weapon over a heavy weapon whenever possible. Iron Warrior tactics should always something along the lines of deploying fire support squads in cover whilst crush their opponents in a wall of armour rather than the current tactic of popping tanks with melta + assaulting the leftovers with a power fist that the current book encourages.

The biggest problem with heavy weapons is that you have to stay still to use them, so maybe giving the squad relentless would be better.

As far as alteration to the FoC are concerned, having havocs as troops or obliterators as elites is far too powerful. Enabling IW to take 1 heavy choice in an elite slot would be less so, while still maintaining flavour.

As far as Kharn goes, he's meant to be one of the ultimate embodiments of khorne. During the siege of terra, when he finally fell at the gates of the emperors palace, it was ontop of a 30ft high pile of bodies that he had personally slain himself. Seeing him relegated to a mere upgrade character, or even an elite character, would be a sad day indeed.

I think chosen need to be reworked so they actually reflect thier fluff. 10,000 year only marines that are no different from regular ones, except they can hide better, does not scream planetary overlords. Making them fearless and giving them +1WS and +1 attack (with a relevant price increase) would be a start.

Dreads should also be able to take marks too. They are entombed chaos marines, some of whom were presumably dedicated to a chaos god at some point. The marks as they are at the moment apply quite nicely to dreads, except nurgle:

Khorne: +1 Attack
Tzneetch: 6+ Inv save
Nurgle: +1 Front Armour
Slaanesh: +1 Initiative

Disregarding 'Crazed', all of those dreads are interesting and quite good.

I'm not crazy about those dreadnought marks.

K: +1 ws and +1 A
T: +1 BS, 6+ save
S: +1 initiative, +1A
N: +1 armour all sides, poisoned attacks 2+

there. Much cooler.

@Regwon
Relentless would be too good as the bolters equipped on the rest of the squad would have a 30” threat range. Plasma guns would also have a 30” threat range and Iron Warrior Players would most likely take dual plasma guns over heavy weapons in the relentless scenario.

Fluff wise, Iron warriors would sit in the cover of a giant fortress and maintain a siege. There isn’t anything in their fluff to suggest they are more physically superior than a normal marine (to the point where they are able to move and fire heavy weapons), only that they are more skilled as far as siegetactics are concerned.

Not being able to move and fire heavy weapons is not necessarily a bad thing as Long Fangs/SM Devastators cope quite well. Give the squad a rhino would give the squad all the mobility they need (and deserve) as far as move + fire is concerned. As far as legion rules are concerned, they should be fairly low key and similar in nature to chapter tactics in the sense that they provide a small benefit but not a major one (like my legion tactics idea above).


As far as dreadnaught marks are concerned. Here is my interpretation:

Khorne: +1 WS and +1 A
Tzeentch: Ability to select a single psychic power (i.e. MoT turns dread into a psyker dread).
Slaanesh: +1 I and Fleet (Daemonettes have the fleet rule so I can see it having a home here)
Nurgle: Vulnerable ability (makes the dreadnaught harder to kill which fits in with the Nurgle fluff very well)

[color=darkblue][size=12]In going along with the IW suggestions, how about the ability of the lord or the IW SC to fortify x number of pieces of terrain. In the fluff, it was said they were masters of building siege works or lines of fortifications. Plus, go back to the old skill in codex 3.5 and make the Iron Warriors fearless when defending fortified obstacles. This would work in conjunction with the lord or IW SC being able to fortify terrain pieces adding +1 or +2 to their cover save. This is in addition to the HW rule.

I really feel like there needs to be something for dreadnoughts that allows them to have 5 BS.... They are represented in the fluff all the time for being gun-totes, and if they lose the crazed rule, I see no reason why they don't deserve it (seeing as BS5 would only hurt you with crazed)

Besides, venerables have WS and BS 5 for roughly 60 extra points (I believe it's 105 for a standard dread and 165 for a regular one)

Hi

I thought I’d post my ideas about fixing Lesser Daemons. My 2 original ideas before I commenced designing the rules was that a) they had to be completely different to the specialised daemons in the daemons codex and b) they had to be more efficient than the current Lesser Daemons.

My idea is to turn them into a “mixed bag of marbles”type unit like Kroot or Beastmasters. Lesser Daemons would be renamed to “Daemon Pack” and would be moved over to the Troops FOC slot (allowing players to fill up their 2 mandatory slots). The Daemon pack would also maintain the generic/undivided nature of the previous incarnation of Lesser Daemons (thus leaving more wiggle room when balancing the rest of the codex). The Daemon pack would function has a hordish type harassment unit that could tie up enemy units in assault and tarpit weaker/unprepared units through weight of attacks.

A Daemon Pack would consist of 3 types of units:
Lesser Daemons: identical to the current generic lesser daemons but cheaper.
Beasts: weaker than Lesser Daemons but have the rending USR.
Champion: 1 per squad. Buffs the unit and can purchase wargear upgrades.

Daemon Pack
Allocation:
• 4-19 Lesser Daemons
• 0-10 Beasts
• 0-1 Champion

Lesser Daemons: 10pts each
4 0 4 4 1 4 2 9 5++
• One may purchase an Icon of Chaos for X points

Daemonic Beasts: 10pts each
4 0 3 3 1 4 3 9 5++
• Rending

Daemon Champion: 20pts
4 0 4 4 1 4 2 10 5++
• Provides the Fleet USR as long as he is alive.
• May be given a vorpal blade (power weapon) or Breath of Chaos(see Codex Daemons) for 10 points.
• May be given a steed/chariot (+1W +1A) for 15 points

USR: Fearless, Daemon (see Codex Daemons)

As it can be seen, the Daemon Pack would have its niche outside the daemons codex as a cheap, customisable horde style unit. The ruleset doesn’t usurp the daemons codex as players can use still use the daemons codex to field a large army of specialised daemons (rather than field large generic blob squads). Players wanting to customise the unit to a particular god can purchase an Icon for the unit (which would be fairly effective given the cheap hordish nature of the unit).

One idea I am thinking about is swapping rending for poisoned 4+ on the beasts. This would give the unit another role as a monstrous creature/high toughness tie up unit.

Regwon wrote:

As far as Kharn goes, he's meant to be one of the ultimate embodiments of khorne. During the siege of terra, when he finally fell at the gates of the emperors palace, it was ontop of a 30ft high pile of bodies that he had personally slain himself. Seeing him relegated to a mere upgrade character, or even an elite character, would be a sad day indeed.

+1

I think this is also another way to support his hitting on a 2+. And for the argument that he shouldn't be better than an Avatar, why not? Kharn is powered by one of the main chaos gods. If i am not mistaken, didnt Khorne even see fit to bring Kharn back to life because he was so good at killing, and he gave so much blood for the blood god.

Yeah Kharn is a pretty good chaos lord that is obviously favoured by Khorne and I think that rule where if he misses a hit it will hit someone on his side if they are engaged in the same fight is pretty fun