They're always described as "cunning" rather than intelligent; they fear teleportation, and they're said to not be overly fond of embracing "new" equipment and tactics - like, you know, jump packs. Their "pack" system is rather stupid, when you think about it; failing to reinforce understrength squads is just begging for all the remaining members to get shot up as their combat effectiveness decreases. Their history is kept in oral tradition rather than, say, written down - I suspect in large part because they can't read.

Basically, they come off as beer-swigging bikers and frat boys, which isn't exactly what you associate with military precision. Not only that, but they're intractable, set in their ways, curmudgeonly, even, and hardly flexible. So, beer-swigging bikers...crossed with your crotchety grandparents. Neither one of which would I turn to if I wanted a complex problem solved.

I wouldn't say they are dumb, as the definition of Dumb is the inability to speak. They are just very tribal, very much like humanity was in the past. There is nothing wrong with the "lower culture" of the Space Wolves compared to the other Chapters. In fact I like to think of them as blue collar(see the pun, Wolves, collar..... I know, terrible....), as opposed to white collar.

Oh no, the Space Wolves are uncouth barbarians that love to drink, too bad you could never say that to one in the face or else he would probably make a bowl out of your skull. That or thank you for the compliment and give you some booze.

The idea of the Space Marines is that they are based on old knightly orders and other such warrior cultures (Black Templar based on the Knights Templar, White Scars based on the Mongols), the Space Wolves are based on Vikings (if the references to the Allfather or Fenris wolves didn't give it away) only now they are 9 feet tall, wearing 4 inch thick armor and armed to the teeth. Yeah, maybe their methods aren't the most efficient, doesn't mean they aren't effective.

CrashCanuck wrote:Oh no, the Space Wolves are uncouth barbarians that love to drink, too bad you could never say that to one in the face or else he would probably make a bowl out of your skull. That or thank you for the compliment and give you some booze.

The idea of the Space Marines is that they are based on old knightly orders and other such warrior cultures (Black Templar based on the Knights Templar, White Scars based on the Mongols), the Space Wolves are based on Vikings (if the references to the Allfather or Fenris wolves didn't give it away) only now they are 9 feet tall, wearing 4 inch thick armor and armed to the teeth. Yeah, maybe their methods aren't the most efficient, doesn't mean they aren't effective.

That's true to an extent, but it's important to remember that the overwhelming majority of chapters out there aren't Space Wolves or Black Templars with extreme quirks - such as fighting about as cleverly as your average wolf would, or completely ignoring the utility of pyskers, respectively. Most of them would use a hammer where appropriate, and a screwdriver where appropriate; Space Wolves just seem like they'd use a hammer all the time - and probably not notice if they accidentally caught themselves in the head with it.

Then you have chapters like the Blood Angels, who actively engage in the creation of art, for example, and the Mentors, who exist solely to be smart and cutting-edge. I'm not saying barbarians can't be quite intelligent, but I do agree that the vibe the Space Wolves give off is one of taking pride in...well, not being intelligent.

Space Wolves are the smart kid in class who never shows up on time because he's hungover. They're the people who have an IQ of 130 but accidentally piss all over themselves every other night. In other words, the difference between humans and Space Wolves isn't capability, but alcoholism. Space Wolves are impatient, lazy, easily distracted, and very inclined to simply call it "late enough" in the day and get drunk off their ass. They're smart, but they don't want to do the kind of things that smart humans do, they want to run around and get smashed like they're playing Beat the Barman.

Sorry if I have misunderstood but I thought the Imperium as a whole mistrusted Tech.

I see SW's as being intelligent. Just because they are based on "barbarians" doesn't mean they are stupid or uncultured.

The Vikings that they are based on were not just smelly brutes. They were highly cultured, just not in the same way as the Romans who unfortunately always seem to be the benchmark for defining "civilisation"..

Ragnar certainly seems intelligent in the Space Wolf novels. His head is full of Imperial knowledge, but it seems to be like a barbarian using the wikipedia in that he needs to look stuff up and is unusual amongst the Space Wolves for being curious and thoughtful.

Nurglitch wrote:Ragnar certainly seems intelligent in the Space Wolf novels. His head is full of Imperial knowledge, but it seems to be like a barbarian using the wikipedia in that he needs to look stuff up and is unusual amongst the Space Wolves for being curious and thoughtful.

Doesn't that sort of prove the OP's point?

Just thinking
How much of the fluff indicates that SW's just get off their faces and fight all the time, and how much of that opinion of them is actually misconception due to the stereotypical image of a Viking (itself a fallacy)?

My Codex is downstairs and I'm too comfy to get it

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry if I have misunderstood but I thought the Imperium as a whole mistrusted Tech.

I see SW's as being intelligent. Just because they are based on "barbarians" doesn't mean they are stupid or uncultured.

The Vikings that they are based on were not just smelly brutes. They were highly cultured, just not in the same way as the Romans who unfortunately always seem to be the benchmark for defining "civilisation"..

That's very true, but I don't see it as applying to the Space Wolves - the Space Wolves play to the stereotype rather than the actuality. The Vikings were explorers, traders, cartographers, etc. They were also vicious raiders. Space Wolves play to the last bit, not the first bit.

@Orkeosaurus: Your twin posts just made my day!

Their "pack" system is rather stupid, when you think about it; failing to reinforce understrength squads is just begging for all the remaining members to get shot up as their combat effectiveness decreases. Their history is kept in oral tradition rather than, say, written down - I suspect in large part because they can't read.

And yet...
They survive very well thankyou. So they are doing something right.
oral tradition, rather than indicating illiterate stupidity actually requires a lot of brainpower and mnemonic ability.
Homeric bards iirc memorised the whole of the Illiad and Oddessy. The same feats of memorising the Eddas and the genealogies would be true for the Vikings and presumably the Space Wolves.
Hardly a sign of idiocy.

Seaward wrote:

That's very true, but I don't see it as applying to the Space Wolves - the Space Wolves play to the stereotype rather than the actuality. The Vikings were explorers, traders, cartographers, etc. They were also vicious raiders. Space Wolves play to the last bit, not the first bit.

But that's the entire point of them as Space Marines, it isn't their job to be explorers, traders or cartographers (more of the job description of a Rogue Trader). Their job is to be soldiers, warriors, defenders of mankind. Hence they epitomize the warrior part of the society they emulate.

Seaward:

No, it just means that they have cultural limitations, not intellectual limitations. Observant jews, to use a real-world example, are not stupid for not eating perfectly safe pork, they simply prefer to assume a cultural prohibition against doing so.

CrashCanuck wrote:

Seaward wrote:

That's very true, but I don't see it as applying to the Space Wolves - the Space Wolves play to the stereotype rather than the actuality. The Vikings were explorers, traders, cartographers, etc. They were also vicious raiders. Space Wolves play to the last bit, not the first bit.

But that's the entire point of them as Space Marines, it isn't their job to be explorers, traders or cartographers (more of the job description of a Rogue Trader). Their job is to be soldiers, warriors, defenders of mankind. Hence they epitomize the warrior part of the society they emulate.

I'm not suggesting that they should be explorers, traders, or cartographers, simply pointing out that Vikings were more than guys in hats who went around hitting things; the Space Wolves seem to be depicted as guys in hats who go around hitting things. For what it's worth, the main reason I've never been able to get on board with Space Wolves - aside from the ****ing ridiculous atrocity that is Thunderwolf Cavalry - is that it seems like every opponent in the galaxy would be able to beat the tar out of them simply by coming up with a strategy slightly more involved than "advance!"

Or by putting an ale barrel somewhere on the battlefield and simply letting the Wolves mug each other in an effort to get to it first.

Where does it say SW's are piratical raiders?
Thought they were too busy defending their section of the galaxy against the Xenos?
(stand to be corrected.)

Also re my question posted above your response Seaward, how much of the SW image is simply predjudiced by a fallacious image of Vikings and how much is actual fluff?

Seaward wrote:I'm not suggesting that they should be explorers, traders, or cartographers, simply pointing out that Vikings were more than guys in hats who went around hitting things; the Space Wolves seem to be depicted as guys in hats who go around hitting things. For what it's worth, the main reason I've never been able to get on board with Space Wolves - aside from the ****ing ridiculous atrocity that is Thunderwolf Cavalry - is that it seems like every opponent in the galaxy would be able to beat the tar out of them simply by coming up with a strategy slightly more involved than "advance!"

Or by putting an ale barrel somewhere on the battlefield and simply letting the Wolves mug each other in an effort to get to it first.

You are correct, Vikings were more than just raider in funny pointed hats that were drunk off their asses 24/7 (or whatever time scale they used). But you are missing my point that all Space Marines are supposed to be warriors and nothing else. Yes I know the Blood Angels promote art alot, good for them, but they are also meant to be warriors and are free to pursue the arts so long as it doesn't interfere with their duty to fight the enemies of the Imperium.

Nurglitch wrote:Seaward:

No, it just means that they have cultural limitations, not intellectual limitations. Observant jews, to use a real-world example, are not stupid for not eating perfectly safe pork, they simply prefer to assume a cultural prohibition against doing so.

That's true, but I'm not sure it's an apt analogy. I'm not saying that they always have to use teleportation or jump packs, but having a cultural prohibition - and I believe it's actually described as a superstition - against them would be like, say, the American military having a cultural aversion to airpower. It's simply not pragmatic, and actually kinda ignorant.

Now, you could make the point that the vast majority of 40K fluff is as far removed from pragmatism as possible, and that's very true. I guess my point is just that I agree that the "feel" of Space Wolf fluff makes them seem - how do I put this? - like that while they might not be out-fought by anyone, a relatively flexible, intelligent commander could simply out-think them pretty easily.


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CrashCanuck wrote:
You are correct, Vikings were more than just raider in funny pointed hats that were drunk off their asses 24/7 (or whatever time scale they used). But you are missing my point that all Space Marines are supposed to be warriors and nothing else. Yes I know the Blood Angels promote art alot, good for them, but they are also meant to be warriors and are free to pursue the arts so long as it doesn't interfere with their duty to fight the enemies of the Imperium.

I could be way off here, but I believe I've read fluff where Space Marines do occasionally do more than simply shoot and/or stab everything they see. I'm pretty sure Papa Smurf's done some diplomacy in his day.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Where does it say SW's are piratical raiders?
Thought they were too busy defending their section of the galaxy against the Xenos?
(stand to be corrected.)

Also re my question posted above your response Seaward, how much of the SW image is simply predjudiced by a fallacious image of Vikings and how much is actual fluff?

Nah, didn't mean they were actually piratical raiders, simply that the "RARGH VIKING SMASH" side of the Viking stereotype is what was applied to them, full bore.

As far as how much of their own fluff actually depicts them that way? That's a good question. Has me tempted to pick up some of the SW-centric BL novels, despite my dislike of reading anything not written by Abnett.

Yes, Space Wolves are dumb.

But at least they have the good sense to put their Terminators in Drop Pods instead of using OMGITSUCKDEEPSTRIKE.

Avoiding teleportation is pretty healthy considering the risk of daemonic contamination and the inherent risk of teleport accidents. Superstition can be pretty practical in the 40k universe.

Seaward wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrashCanuck wrote:
You are correct, Vikings were more than just raider in funny pointed hats that were drunk off their asses 24/7 (or whatever time scale they used). But you are missing my point that all Space Marines are supposed to be warriors and nothing else. Yes I know the Blood Angels promote art alot, good for them, but they are also meant to be warriors and are free to pursue the arts so long as it doesn't interfere with their duty to fight the enemies of the Imperium.

I could be way off here, but I believe I've read fluff where Space Marines do occasionally do more than simply shoot and/or stab everything they see. I'm pretty sure Papa Smurf's done some diplomacy in his day.

True, but that is the smurfs, not the Wolves, they are the ones that pretty much just shoot and/or stab what comes in front of them. They do have their moments of introspection, 1st war of Armageddon after all the Imp Guard forces were mind wiped, the Wolves were pretty pissed about how unfair that was.

I also imagine the Smurfs diplomacy was only directed towards Tau, Eldar and possibly the odd eloquent rebel leader. Orks and Dark Eldar may get a "leave before we shoot you" comment, but Chaos, Tyranid and Necrons show and recieve no quarter.

Going to have to have a looksee at the fluff too.

I only have the codex though.
I assume there have been no independent anthropological studies?

Rascon wrote:They're always described as "cunning" rather than intelligent; they fear teleportation, and they're said to not be overly fond of embracing "new" equipment and tactics - like, you know, jump packs. Their "pack" system is rather stupid, when you think about it; failing to reinforce understrength squads is just begging for all the remaining members to get shot up as their combat effectiveness decreases. Their history is kept in oral tradition rather than, say, written down - I suspect in large part because they can't read.

Basically, they come off as beer-swigging bikers and frat boys, which isn't exactly what you associate with military precision. Not only that, but they're intractable, set in their ways, curmudgeonly, even, and hardly flexible. So, beer-swigging bikers...crossed with your crotchety grandparents. Neither one of which would I turn to if I wanted a complex problem solved.

OK, as a Space Wolf fan (not player, but fan of the fluff), let me see how many of these I can address:

They don't "fear" teleportation. They prefer to avoid using the arcane and poorly understood technology of teleporters. Given that a teleporter mishap can kill you pretty irretrievably (and in a definitely unheroic manner), this isn't unjustified. When you combine this with a cultural preference for dying in battle (including having your Thunderhawk or Drop Pod shot down) over dying due to a malfunction or a careless tech-adept, this also seems reasonable.

I've never heard of Space Wolves eschewing jump packs for being "new equipment". I've read that they view them as undignified, and better suited to impetuous Blood Claws. I've also read that they prefer to fight "traditionally". Preferring to do something traditionally doesn't mean that you are unaware, or afraid of, or opposed to new technology. Someone can choose to play a miniatures game rather than choosing to play a video game without being curmudgeonly, right?

Failing to reinforce understrength squads could also be viewed as a long term strategy for building unit cohesion. If a unit serves together for a long time, they will presumably develop a high level of loyalty and cooperation, which could easily be undermined by rotating members out of the unit, or introducing unfamiliar new members to the unit. Notice how Space Wolves spring forward to defend their squad-mates aggressively, while other Chapters do not? Notice how Long Fangs are capable of splitting the fire of the unit, while other Devastator units are not? This is a tactical decision, not tying your hands behind your back.

Their history is kept in oral tradition. Notice how this has stymied the Inquisitors who have sought to persecute the Space Wolves for genetic deviancy, heresy, or other violations of Imperial/Ecclesiarchal expectations? Note that the Space Wolves have an uninterrupted history from their founding, through their reunion with their Primarch, to the present day? Note that numerous other Chapters have no idea of their Primarch, or have entire sections of their history expunged, sometimes through the interference of the Inquisition (Storm Wardens)? See how well it works out to have written records?

Beer swigging? Given that Astartes are capable of ingesting quite potent toxins with no effect, I can't see how "beer swigging" can be viewed as reducing their efficiency any more than "water swigging".

Bikers? Given that the Space Wolves ONLY field Blood Claws as bikers (and possibly some Wolf Guard squads), they would actually have proportionately FEWER marines riding bikes than most chapters, which field both Scout Bikers and full Marines on Bikes.

Frat boys? That one I don't know how to address. They can hardly even GET drunk, thanks to their physiology. I suppose that they might chase women, as it's always been unclear whether Space Marines are gelded/sexless/impotent. Do frat boys commonly spearhead planetary assaults?

They are intractable. So are Dark Angels.

Set in their ways. Um. They are a First Founding Legion, which didn't even bow to the Codex Astartes. I would assume that MOST institutions which successfully flourish for thousands of years would probably NEED to be set in their ways, or they wouldn't look much like the Chapter from a few thousand years ago, much less the Founding Legion.

Inflexible. You pick one of the few Chapters that doesn't follow almost ANYTHING from the Codex to call inflexible? What does that make Codex chapters, who are all still following a book written by Rowboat Girlyman (I can spell that more correctly than his real name) thousands of years ago? The Space Wolves are inflexible?

Sigh.

No. All drunk people come up with the best ideas.

Thanks Butcha
Hopefully that will put the boozy berp Viking image to bed.
One can live in hope!

One thing that could be held against the Space Wolves is their Canix Helix defect. I read the Space Wolf novels surrounding Ragnar Blackmane, and, especially around Blood Claws, their feral instinct seems to control them more often than not. In this way, young Wolves might lack in the field of objective, academic thinking compared to Ultramarines or similar chapters.

However, I would argue that controlling their feral side actually forms and strengthens the character of older Wolves. Controlling the beast inside is an act of mental discipline that other chapters (apart from BA) don't know or understand; Space Wolves are known to very, very rarely defect to Chaos, compared to codex chapters. This strength of character and will is, naturally, not directly linked to intelligence, but at least to a certain kind of wisdom, I think.

Rascon wrote:
They're always described as "cunning" rather than intelligent; they fear teleportation, and they're said to not be overly fond of embracing "new" equipment and tactics - like, you know, jump packs. Their "pack" system is rather stupid, when you think about it; failing to reinforce understrength squads is just begging for all the remaining members to get shot up as their combat effectiveness decreases. Their history is kept in oral tradition rather than, say, written down - I suspect in large part because they can't read.

Basically, they come off as beer-swigging bikers and frat boys, which isn't exactly what you associate with military precision. Not only that, but they're intractable, set in their ways, curmudgeonly, even, and hardly flexible. So, beer-swigging bikers...crossed with your crotchety grandparents. Neither one of which would I turn to if I wanted a complex problem solved.

Yeah, no. The Space Wolves don't trust teleportation, their is a differance between fear and trust. The same goes for jet packs, their mind set which comes from their culture is that a warrior should fight with his feet firmly on the ground instead of
launching himself up in the air which makes sense because a basic of combat is to always keep your balance which means one foot on the ground at all times.

As far as embracing "new" technologies are you unaware that the Space Wolves use things like the Land Raider Crusader which is a new variant of the LR in cannon terms? actually I fail to see any technological limitations that set the Space Wolves apart from other chapters as they have access to everything others have (unless your going to nit pick about things like the Thunderfire Cannon or Land Speeder storm which may not be used simply because the SW have no need for them. They simply choose to rely more on the man then the machine.

Concerning their oral tradition the Space Wolves have and use the same memory machines as every other chapter, this is supported numerous times In Space Wolf novels. Again the oral tradition derives from their parent culture as a way of remembering great warriors, battles and sacrifices, this does not mean that their entire history is kept in the minds of bards alone (although company bards are tasked with memorizing the entire history of their great company and many probably do know the whole history). Also it was mentioned above about Ragnar having to look up the information needed, Space Marines are implanted with information of all sorts by learning machines. This information isn't emmediatly available though and usually only comes to light at relevant times or when recalled by the space marine through litanies.

Their pack organisation is simply creating a bonded group of which the strongest will survive. Now if you take a group of men that has trained together, been in a sense "created" together, can predict eachothers every move and then try and replace a lost member of that fraternity with an outsider you're going to have problem. Logan grimnar who is one of the greatest heros of the Imperium is the last surviving member of his original pack and I highly doubt it has hindered his combat effectivness.

In response to your last paragraph (and don't take this the wrong way) but have you even read any fluff about Space Marines or indeed the Space Wolves? All Space Marines are set in their ways, it's called tradition. And in fact the Space Wolves are one of the more tactically flexible chapters that exist. They can acomplish a mission just as well as a Ultramarine they just do it their own way and without being limited by an ancient book. And if by inflexible you mean they don't bow down to what outside forces tell them to do (like any chapter of Space Marines who are only serviant to The Emperor) then yes you are right.

As Space Marines they are just as intelligent as Ultramarines, Black Templars or Blood Angels they just choose to use their intelligence in a differant way which may seem "dumb" or "barbaric" to someone who dosen't understand the culture. They also aren't limited to the strict military conduct enforced by other chapters (which by the way Marneus Calgar is fond of wine made on Ultramar) which makes many see them as unprofessional. I guess the best way to end this is that I highly HIGHLY doubt a chapter that has survived for 10,000 years (and is also my favorite+the army that got me into wargaming) is made up of "dumb" soldiers.

Though I'm pretty much just reitterating some of what has already been said I find it important to set the record straight as I find this question to frankly be "dumb" . Also just to clarify the Space Wolves actually can get drunk, there is a root that they use in their ale which bypasses the functions of their Oolitic Kidney and Peomnor organs which filter out toxins. That dosen't mean that the organs don't work against everything else though, it also dosen't mean that the Space Wolves spend every waking moment (and since Space Marines have the Catalepsean Node this can be alot of minutes) drinking.

Space Wolves are not stupid, far from it actually; they are intelligent but native Fenrisian superstition gives them their traditions and culture. Which people mistake for backwardsness.
BTW Space Wolves don't like jump packs becasue they prefer to keep their feet on the ground just like russ did.

I would give a longer answer but I am too tired....

Saw a couple points here that I wanted to address.

Da Butcha wrote:
I've never heard of Space Wolves eschewing jump packs for being "new equipment". I've read that they view them as undignified, and better suited to impetuous Blood Claws. I've also read that they prefer to fight "traditionally". Preferring to do something traditionally doesn't mean that you are unaware, or afraid of, or opposed to new technology. Someone can choose to play a miniatures game rather than choosing to play a video game without being curmudgeonly, right?

Let's bear in mind that just because something's traditional doesn't mean it's not stupid. See: the running of the bulls in Pamplona.

Da Butcha wrote:Failing to reinforce understrength squads could also be viewed as a long term strategy for building unit cohesion. If a unit serves together for a long time, they will presumably develop a high level of loyalty and cooperation, which could easily be undermined by rotating members out of the unit, or introducing unfamiliar new members to the unit. Notice how Space Wolves spring forward to defend their squad-mates aggressively, while other Chapters do not? Notice how Long Fangs are capable of splitting the fire of the unit, while other Devastator units are not? This is a tactical decision, not tying your hands behind your back.

The codex specifically states that LFs split fire because they're old enough to be trusted to individually target, not because they're more cohesive than Devastators.

Da Butcha wrote:Their history is kept in oral tradition. Notice how this has stymied the Inquisitors who have sought to persecute the Space Wolves for genetic deviancy, heresy, or other violations of Imperial/Ecclesiarchal expectations? Note that the Space Wolves have an uninterrupted history from their founding, through their reunion with their Primarch, to the present day? Note that numerous other Chapters have no idea of their Primarch, or have entire sections of their history expunged, sometimes through the interference of the Inquisition (Storm Wardens)? See how well it works out to have written records?

Yet the Blood Angels have as much, if not more, to be worried about in terms of the Inquisition finding out bad stuff about them, and seem quite content to write plenty of stuff down. First Founding chapters are generally pretty safe regardless.

Da Butcha wrote:Beer swigging? Given that Astartes are capable of ingesting quite potent toxins with no effect, I can't see how "beer swigging" can be viewed as reducing their efficiency any more than "water swigging".

I think you just pointed out a huge hole in SW "We loves us ale!" fluff.

Da Butcha wrote:What does that make Codex chapters, who are all still following a book written by Rowboat Girlyman (I can spell that more correctly than his real name) thousands of years ago?

The Codex has been updated countless times since Roboute wrote it.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Yeah, no. The Space Wolves don't trust teleportation, their is a differance between fear and trust. The same goes for jet packs, their mind set which comes from their culture is that a warrior should fight with his feet firmly on the ground instead of
launching himself up in the air which makes sense because a basic of combat is to always keep your balance which means one foot on the ground at all times.

So jump packs are unreliable for balance, yet sitting on top of a giant, ferocious wolf isn't?

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Their pack organisation is simply creating a bonded group of which the strongest will survive. Now if you take a group of men that has trained together, been in a sense "created" together, can predict eachothers every move and then try and replace a lost member of that fraternity with an outsider you're going to have problem. Logan grimnar who is one of the greatest heros of the Imperium is the last surviving member of his original pack and I highly doubt it has hindered his combat effectivness.

They're soldiers, not space BFFs. Would you rather have ten guys who can fight just as effectively with anyone else in their chapter, or two guys who know what kind of deodorant each other wear? If what you say is true, we better tell SEAL platoons, Special Forces ODAs, etc., to stop reinforcing right now, 'cause getting whittled down to three or four dudes is preferable to operating at full strength.

Lord of battles wrote:Space Wolves are not stupid, far from it actually; they are intelligent but native Fenrisian superstition gives them their traditions and culture. Which people mistake for backwardsness.
BTW Space Wolves don't like jump packs becasue they prefer to keep their feet on the ground just like russ did.

I would give a longer answer but I am too tired....

Same with teleportation, Russ didn't trust it and if it wasn't good enough for Russ, then it isn't good enough for the rest of the Space Wolves.

Da Butcha wrote:Beer swigging? Given that Astartes are capable of ingesting quite potent toxins with no effect, I can't see how "beer swigging" can be viewed as reducing their efficiency any more than "water swigging".

I think you just pointed out a huge hole in SW "We loves us ale!" fluff.

The Space Wolves novels describe a certain root or herb native to Fenris that is, fortunately, able to shut the Wolves' increased resistance to drugs down for a limited period of time. They mix it into their beer and ale all the time so they can get drunk. Getting drunk is an important part of staying sane in a lifetime of eternal war, according to Ragnar. Maybe he's onto something? Again, Space Wolves very rarely turn to Chaos, certainly less often than other chapters...

Edit: Damn, Imbad Ironskull ninja's me be a few posts.

This probaly was already said, but im to lazy to read it all, so most space marine chapters are very set in there ways, in fact theres a whole book dedicated to what space marines should being doing. so i mean every chapter has its ideas, and the codex never says they're dumb, they are as smart and as good as any other chapter, they just have more fun

Da Butcha wrote:
I've never heard of Space Wolves eschewing jump packs for being "new equipment". I've read that they view them as undignified, and better suited to impetuous Blood Claws. I've also read that they prefer to fight "traditionally". Preferring to do something traditionally doesn't mean that you are unaware, or afraid of, or opposed to new technology. Someone can choose to play a miniatures game rather than choosing to play a video game without being curmudgeonly, right?

Let's bear in mind that just because something's traditional doesn't mean it's not stupid. See: the running of the bulls in Pamplona.

Let's also bear in mind that what may be stupid to one person dosen't make it stupid. Opinions are not absolute.

Da Butcha wrote:Failing to reinforce understrength squads could also be viewed as a long term strategy for building unit cohesion. If a unit serves together for a long time, they will presumably develop a high level of loyalty and cooperation, which could easily be undermined by rotating members out of the unit, or introducing unfamiliar new members to the unit. Notice how Space Wolves spring forward to defend their squad-mates aggressively, while other Chapters do not? Notice how Long Fangs are capable of splitting the fire of the unit, while other Devastator units are not? This is a tactical decision, not tying your hands behind your back.

The codex specifically states that LFs split fire because they're old enough to be trusted to individually target, not because they're more cohesive than Devastators.

"Fire Control: The Leaders of Long Fang packs have trained and fought with the other members of his pack for decades or even centuries of active service. This allows him to direct his squads firepower quickly and efficiently."

Where exactly does it "specificly" state that LFs split fire because they're old enough to be trusted with individual targets? Forgive me but unless my ability to read is greatly diminished then I thought this direct quote from the codex says that it is the squads cohesivness that allows them to fire at seperate targets.

Da Butcha wrote:What does that make Codex chapters, who are all still following a book written by Rowboat Girlyman (I can spell that more correctly than his real name) thousands of years ago?

The Codex has been updated countless times since Roboute wrote it.

Yes and despite those updates the Space Wolves (and other chapters) don't follow its instructions and are still counted amongst the greatest fighting forces in the Imperium.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Yeah, no. The Space Wolves don't trust teleportation, their is a differance between fear and trust. The same goes for jet packs, their mind set which comes from their culture is that a warrior should fight with his feet firmly on the ground instead of
launching himself up in the air which makes sense because a basic of combat is to always keep your balance which means one foot on the ground at all times.

So jump packs are unreliable for balance, yet sitting on top of a giant, ferocious wolf isn't?

Lets see, being launched up into the air with the likelyhood of no cover and very little timely course correction vs riding a creature that is stable on it's feet, able to change course rapidly and still make use of cover. Give me the wolf.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Their pack organisation is simply creating a bonded group of which the strongest will survive. Now if you take a group of men that has trained together, been in a sense "created" together, can predict eachothers every move and then try and replace a lost member of that fraternity with an outsider you're going to have problem. Logan grimnar who is one of the greatest heros of the Imperium is the last surviving member of his original pack and I highly doubt it has hindered his combat effectivness.

They're soldiers, not space BFFs. Would you rather have ten guys who can fight just as effectively with anyone else in their chapter, or two guys who know what kind of deodorant each other wear? If what you say is true, we better tell SEAL platoons, Special Forces ODAs, etc., to stop reinforcing right now, 'cause getting whittled down to three or four dudes is preferable to operating at full strength.

I never said that they sat around braiding eachothers hair. I also never said anything about them not being able to fight effectivly with the rest of the chapter but it is known that multiple chapters have rivalries and enemies within themselves. Wether you know it or not soldiers who fight together do develop very strong bonds, this can range from soldiers of a platoon or company to a small elite squad. Trying to compare Space Wolves which are a ficticous force to real world organizations is like trying to say lifting an object using the force and lifting one using a forklift is the same thing and IMHO dosen't help validate your argument. You may not understand it and it may not be what you would do if you where in command but there is a point to not reinforcing squads that are below optimal strength. Especially when those squads are made up of super human vikings with enhanced senses

So jump packs are unreliable for balance, yet sitting on top of a giant, ferocious wolf isn't?

This is not a typical SW unit though
I get the impression from what has been said that the balance issue is secondary to the groundedness of combat.
A cavalry unit is still on Terra Firma.



please let us not get sidetracked by the Thunderwolf chestnut

I heard Dante is buddies with Necrons
On Topic: Why does this feel like someone is picking on space wolves to vent some Fenris hate?
I may have a slightly biased opinion but I don't believe SW are in anyway "dumb". I was sure I read something in the codex about the SW being able to sober up almost instantly when they needed to, also WGPLs seem to me to be a lot of small squads that survived by working together and functioning as smaller more efficient units and now have the option of leading almost all the different SW squads because of their battlefield acumen.

They're soldiers, not space BFFs. Would you rather have ten guys who can fight just as effectively with anyone else in their chapter, or two guys who know what kind of deodorant each other wear? If what you say is true, we better tell SEAL platoons, Special Forces ODAs, etc., to stop reinforcing right now, 'cause getting whittled down to three or four dudes is preferable to operating at full strength.

I never said that they sat around braiding eachothers hair. I also never said anything about them not being able to fight effectivly with the rest of the chapter but it is known that multiple chapters have rivalries and enemies within themselves. Wether you know it or not soldiers who fight together do develop very strong bonds, this can range from soldiers of a platoon or company to a small elite squad. Trying to compare Space Wolves which are a ficticous force to real world organizations is like trying to say lifting an object using the force and lifting one using a forklift is the same thing and IMHO dosen't help validate your argument. You may not understand it and it may not be what you would do if you where in command but there is a point to not reinforcing squads that are below optimal strength. Especially when those squads are made up of super human vikings with enhanced senses

What's more, is due to the unique properties of the Canis Helix, the additional level of cohesion in Space Wolf packs is a real, tangible thing. Had the OP bothered to read any of the Space Wolf novels before starting this thread, he'd realize that pack members have a near telepathic bond with each other, and can communicate via smell and subconscious body language faster than any other chapter can communicate via vox-bead.

In a White Dwarf article from about ten years back, I recall a visiting Inquisitor who writes that he has received the impression that Logan Grimnar merely appears to be a scruffy barbarian. If anything of interest, it is suspiciously deliberate.

There are plenty of 'naughty' things that the Space Wolves have been doing (debasing the Crux Terminatus and standard Rosarius with wolf skulls and the like), but there is no such evidence in the chapter archives. In fact, there is practically nothing. An oral tradition of storytelling means that only the great stories are told.

Everyone has secrets to keep in the Imperium, and the 'Wolves are sensible about it. They could tell great tales about the lost companies that chose not to return to Fenris, instead following the path of their Primarch and driving themselves, embodied as weapons, into the heart of oblivion. This could be seen as heresy, and they know that there are much greater enemies than the zealous, misguided fools that represent much of the human empire.

Blood Claws, still coming to terms with their physical and psychological changes, are like adolescents - headstrong, confident, and perhaps easily goaded... but they are not underestimable. They're the equivalent of codex scouts, but allowed free expression in battle, and better able to develop into the gifted warriors that they showed promise to be. People are not chosen at random to become Space Marines - they must possess certain qualities.

Grey Hunters have learned to operate with their brothers, and know their place a little better. With this respect for their brethren, they can develop and utilise their unique abilities and heightened senses to far greater effect on the battlefield - what they lack in animal savagery they make up for in sensibility and careful planning.

To say that the Space Wolves take nothing from the Codex Astartes is misguiding. They are Adeptus Astartes nevertheless, and they define what they are - not a deteriorating manuscript written by a fallible man. To be inflexible is to shatter under great enough pressure. To depend on military structure is to be thought of as a worthless tool with a singly defined purpose.

Above all else, Space Wolves can talk. They are not dumb.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Same with Russ, he uses the barbaric and feral appearance to his advantage. In a Thousand Sons it's said that this is all pretty much for show where in fact Russ is very intelligent.

Fear is one of the greatest tools in war.

If the sons of Russ follow their father then I guess it would be true of them too. Maybe not all of them mind

I can imagine even Stephen Hawkins can be quite vicious after a few Stellas

Ummmmmm.....
Yes is all can say i'm afraid.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Let's also bear in mind that what may be stupid to one person dosen't make it stupid. Opinions are not absolute.

No, but stupidity is. There are plenty of things out there that we can all agree are stupid - drunk driving, Russian roulette, Thunderwolf Cavalry...

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Yes and despite those updates the Space Wolves (and other chapters) don't follow its instructions and are still counted amongst the greatest fighting forces in the Imperium.

Ah, but see, much as I hate the Ultramarine fanwank of the vanilla Codex, we do have fluff statements making it clear who the greatest among Space Marine chapters is - and it ain't the Wolves. It's the epitome of a codex chapter, the Smurfs. It's written. It's published. It's canon.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:I never said that they sat around braiding eachothers hair. I also never said anything about them not being able to fight effectivly with the rest of the chapter but it is known that multiple chapters have rivalries and enemies within themselves. Wether you know it or not soldiers who fight together do develop very strong bonds, this can range from soldiers of a platoon or company to a small elite squad. Trying to compare Space Wolves which are a ficticous force to real world organizations is like trying to say lifting an object using the force and lifting one using a forklift is the same thing and IMHO dosen't help validate your argument. You may not understand it and it may not be what you would do if you where in command but there is a point to not reinforcing squads that are below optimal strength. Especially when those squads are made up of super human vikings with enhanced senses

Oh, I'm aware that soldiers who fight together develop strong bonds. I'm also aware that they don't stay with the same unit their entire lives, and that said unit receives reinforcements when it takes losses, because doing otherwise is a fundamentally stupid way of doing things. Which is why no one - other chapters included - does it. It's a waste of valuable resources in order to be more wolfy.

Oh, I'm aware that soldiers who fight together develop strong bonds. I'm also aware that they don't stay with the same unit their entire lives, and that said unit receives reinforcements when it takes losses, because doing otherwise is a fundamentally stupid way of doing things. Which is why no one - other chapters included - does it. It's a waste of valuable resources in order to be more wolfy.

But Space Wolves are not soldiers. They are super soldiers. Really, it seems your argument is based on "What works for today's armies must be the optimum for everyone else, too!". As Commander Endova stated, the Canis Helix drastically changes they way Space Wolves interact with each other. They can communicate and share information on the basis of body language and smell. Sounds superior to shouting to me, being faster, quieter and probably less prone to misunderstandings (on the level the Wolves do it).

Since they are so different from normal men in several regards, saying they're dumb because they don't do it like normal men seems to be as inflexible as you say they Space Wolves are. Who knows how SEAL team members would operate if they had the heightened senses of a Space Wolf? Maybe they would be better, too, if left in original units bonded over time. That's all subject of speculation - but what we KNOW is, that the Wolves do it this way for about 10,000 years and guess what, they're still there. That's proof that their way of handling their pack mentality is probably not the wrong choice for them.

Witzkatz wrote:
But Space Wolves are not soldiers. They are super soldiers.

Unlike all the other Space Marine chapters who DO in fact reinforce understrength squads? The whole, "But they're super soldiers!" argument falls apart when it's only one out of a thousand groups of said super soldiers that don't do it.

Really, it seems your argument is based on "What works for today's armies must be the optimum for everyone else, too!". As Commander Endova stated, the Canis Helix drastically changes they way Space Wolves interact with each other. They can communicate and share information on the basis of body language and smell. Sounds superior to shouting to me, being faster, quieter and probably less prone to misunderstandings (on the level the Wolves do it).

So trying to see body language and trying to smell through a helmet's filter is more effective than using the built-in voxcaster during a firefight? Really?

It's also worth noting that actual wolves are quite capable of changing packs.

None of which is evidence of stupidity.

Am I correct in thinking that it is not just the body that is enhanced but the mind as well in the deep frying Marinification process?

This can go two ways. That SW let us not forget are still SM's and therefore require intelligence.
SW's are able to operate their thinking beyond the indoctrination process, which again suggests intelligence rather than stupidity.

Hurr I'm a Space Wolf I wanna sniff your bum.

In all seriousness no. Just because the Space Wolves do things differently doesn't make them dumb.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Let's also bear in mind that what may be stupid to one person dosen't make it stupid. Opinions are not absolute.

No, but stupidity is. There are plenty of things out there that we can all agree are stupid - drunk driving, Russian roulette, Thunderwolf Cavalry...

Drunken driving and Russian roulette have nothing to do with the Space Wolves and as far as Thunderwold Cavalry goes that is once again YOUR opinion which you are entitled to but it IS NOT an absolution

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Yes and despite those updates the Space Wolves (and other chapters) don't follow its instructions and are still counted amongst the greatest fighting forces in the Imperium.

Ah, but see, much as I hate the Ultramarine fanwank of the vanilla Codex, we do have fluff statements making it clear who the greatest among Space Marine chapters is - and it ain't the Wolves. It's the epitome of a codex chapter, the Smurfs. It's written. It's published. It's canon.

Considering this isn't a discussion about which chapter is greatest I see no way that this is significant to the discussion. The fact is that the Space Wolves DO NOT follow the teachings of the Codex Astartes and they are still amongst the greatest warriors in the galaxy who have fought for 10,000 years and longer for humanity, they have also fought in more conflicts then any other chapter. That to is cannon.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:I never said that they sat around braiding eachothers hair. I also never said anything about them not being able to fight effectivly with the rest of the chapter but it is known that multiple chapters have rivalries and enemies within themselves. Wether you know it or not soldiers who fight together do develop very strong bonds, this can range from soldiers of a platoon or company to a small elite squad. Trying to compare Space Wolves which are a ficticous force to real world organizations is like trying to say lifting an object using the force and lifting one using a forklift is the same thing and IMHO dosen't help validate your argument. You may not understand it and it may not be what you would do if you where in command but there is a point to not reinforcing squads that are below optimal strength. Especially when those squads are made up of super human vikings with enhanced senses

Oh, I'm aware that soldiers who fight together develop strong bonds. I'm also aware that they don't stay with the same unit their entire lives, and that said unit receives reinforcements when it takes losses, because doing otherwise is a fundamentally stupid way of doing things. Which is why no one - other chapters included - does it. It's a waste of valuable resources in order to be more wolfy.

Again YOUR opinion is not an absolution and you may need to work that belief out with some professional help. What you call a waste of valuable recources has created some of the greatest heros of the Imperium and has been the effective fighting method of the chapter for 10,000 years. Who are you to argue with that? especially in a discussion concerning the intelligence of an entire Space Marine chapter which respectfully to the OP should never have been brought up because anyone who knows anything about any of the chapters knows that ALL Space Marines are highly intelligent despite what their appearance may suggest.

Regardless of organization, tradition and cultural givings the OPs question is "are the Space Wolves dumb". The answer is most definitivly NO and nothing that you can argue against that has any bearing in that so far it has been nothing but your opinion and your own misgivings about the chapter.

As for the comment made by someone about "debasing" items such as the Crux Terminatus and Crozius Arcanum the Codex Astartes encourages chapters to display their own heraldry and icons which is why chapters such as the Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Black Templers (to name a few) also alter the above items with the Ultramarines icon, a blood drop and a templar cross respectfully. As it is probably one of the only things used be the Space Wolves that is encouraged in the Codex Astartes it can hardly be seen as debasment.

It just sounds like somebody lost a game to some space wolves recently...

Have any of you ever observed a wolf pack in the wild? I live in Alaska, and make frequent trips to Denali National Park (where, according to the National Park Service, there are "Between 12 and 18 wolf packs roam(ing) Denali in territories that range from 200 to 800 square miles").

Wolves hunt in a very peculiar way. They have always hunted with each other, for as long as they've been hunting. This creates a very unique bond, and gives them an almost preternatural sense of communication. They can adjust their tactics with little more than a glance. For being "dumb" (meaning unable to speak) animals, they work in perfect unity with each other. It is the most curious thing to watch.

When a new pack member is introduced, it often only leads to problems. The wolves of the original pack will outright ignore the newcomer at best, attack it on sight at worst. It can be a distraction that means the failure of a hunt.


Space Wolves choose to not reinforce units for a specific reason. They realize the bond that is formed by a unit that works together exclusively, and use it to garner an advantageous battlefield doctrine of fraternal protection (fraternal not as in a college house of idiots, but as in brotherly or connected through a strong familial bond).

Space wolves are not any stupider than a person who plays games with little soldiers. So tell me, do you use an I-phone app to roll your dice? Surely its better, because its new technology! Do you carry a calculator everywhere to do calculations for you? Not using technology just simply because you CAN is not a weakness.

At any rate, I believe others made their cases better than I did, but I had to point out that somebody must have lost their game of 40k to a SW player recently!

Previous comments removed because I realize that was kind of rude.

Moral of the story, space wolves seem a little bit like... this:

http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Three-Short-Sleeve-Medium/dp/B000NZW3J8/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285865564&sr=8-1

On what do you base these conclusions Deep Biege?

what is this "tactics" and "discipline" you speak of ?
most of my problem can be solved by attacking it until it DIES

in complicated diplomacy you may not want to ask a space marine at all, they will scream HERESY faster than anyone except the inquisition

hence space marine are there when you want whatever disturbance GONE

they don't need to be book smart, if they know how to fight either based on practice, or field experience. I say they are smart enough

So Space Wolves aren't dumb, they are a kitsch t-shirt
(just ordered 3)

Rascon wrote:They're always described as "cunning" rather than intelligent; they fear teleportation, and they're said to not be overly fond of embracing "new" equipment and tactics - like, you know, jump packs. Their "pack" system is rather stupid, when you think about it; failing to reinforce understrength squads is just begging for all the remaining members to get shot up as their combat effectiveness decreases. Their history is kept in oral tradition rather than, say, written down - I suspect in large part because they can't read.

Basically, they come off as beer-swigging bikers and frat boys, which isn't exactly what you associate with military precision. Not only that, but they're intractable, set in their ways, curmudgeonly, even, and hardly flexible. So, beer-swigging bikers...crossed with your crotchety grandparents. Neither one of which would I turn to if I wanted a complex problem solved.

They aren't simpletons but have very clannish/unorthodox ways and superstitions. They're not soldiers either. They are warriors. Two very different things.

Space Wolves are, to a greater or lesser degree, influenced by the Norse cultures that sprung up in the Viking Age. As a result, people tend to stereotype them as dumb, just as they would a Viking, but the fact is that it's not true. The three key Viking virtues were, as I remember them, bravery strenght and cunning, and indeed there are many sagas in which the heroes won through with cleverness and trickery as opposed to brute strength.
Just because the Wolves don't make use of certain technologies such as Teleporting and have a strong tribal element to them doesn't make them dumb.


EDIT: also, the Space Wolves can read. They have a Runic alphabet which they use to mark squads and vehicles as well as write down some of the sagas they tell.

Seaward: Stop trolling (or playing dumb yourself, can't really tell which of the two you're really thinkin' yourself up to).

The OPs question have truly been answered, NO Space Wolves are not dumb, at least not dumber than any other marine from any other chapter.


The OPs example regarding tech can def. not be applied either; does a shooty-heavy fielded DA army make it more intelligent than that of a CC heavy BA army? Nope.

Müller wrote:Seaward: Stop trolling (or playing dumb yourself, can't really tell which of the two you're really thinkin' yourself up to).

Pointing out that logistical stupidity is...well, logistical stupidity is hardly trolling. Honestly, I find the guys getting so worked up over the suggestion that leaving one lone pack survivor all by himself to die is an awfully dumb idea to be far more worthwhile for comedy than actual trolling.

Seaward wrote:

Müller wrote:Seaward: Stop trolling (or playing dumb yourself, can't really tell which of the two you're really thinkin' yourself up to).

Pointing out that logistical stupidity is...well, logistical stupidity is hardly trolling. Honestly, I find the guys getting so worked up over the suggestion that leaving one lone pack survivor all by himself to die is an awfully dumb idea to be far more worthwhile for comedy than actual trolling.

By that logic DA should tell the entire chapter about the fallen and the lion and luther so they have more marines to capture fallen instead of just a part of their chapter.

purplefood wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Müller wrote:Seaward: Stop trolling (or playing dumb yourself, can't really tell which of the two you're really thinkin' yourself up to).

Pointing out that logistical stupidity is...well, logistical stupidity is hardly trolling. Honestly, I find the guys getting so worked up over the suggestion that leaving one lone pack survivor all by himself to die is an awfully dumb idea to be far more worthwhile for comedy than actual trolling.

By that logic DA should tell the entire chapter about the fallen and the lion and luther so they have more marines to capture fallen instead of just a part of their chapter.

That would probably be a slightly more efficient way to try and accomplish a hopeless task, yes.

Seaward wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Müller wrote:Seaward: Stop trolling (or playing dumb yourself, can't really tell which of the two you're really thinkin' yourself up to).

Pointing out that logistical stupidity is...well, logistical stupidity is hardly trolling. Honestly, I find the guys getting so worked up over the suggestion that leaving one lone pack survivor all by himself to die is an awfully dumb idea to be far more worthwhile for comedy than actual trolling.

By that logic DA should tell the entire chapter about the fallen and the lion and luther so they have more marines to capture fallen instead of just a part of their chapter.

That would probably be a slightly more efficient way to try and accomplish a hopeless task, yes.

I was hoping you would say that

You know a thread is doomed when the 4x multiquotes appear

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:You know a thread is doomed when the 4x multiquotes appear

'Tis true...

On the subject of them leaving lone survivors... at this point they are usually pulled from line duty, so yeah if they left the survivor on the line then they would be stupid... but they don't.

The survivor become distraught after rialising he is the last of his pack and al his mates are dead, this causes him to become a lone wolf, Although after he kills a monster or massive horde of whatever, if he survives he will almost always become one of his great company's wolf guard because wolf lords love those kinds of heroism (and the wolves love a good story, and you know it will be a good one)

Orkeosaurus wrote:Space Wolves are the smart kid in class who never shows up on time because he's hungover.

love this line annd must agree

..........and not because i was that kid in high school

No more dumb than any other Marine. They just have a different culture.

Well lots of space marines are afraid of things like teleportation, drop pods and jump packs and I thought space marines couldn't get drunk....

Again there is a differance between being afraid of something and not trusting it. And it has already been stated as to how the Space Wolves can get drunk.

And for the record, the wolves drink Mead when they get pissed, not the Ale.
It's all in the first Space Wolf book

Müller wrote:And for the record, the wolves drink Mead when they get pissed, not the Ale.
It's all in the first Space Wolf book

They've been recording drinking both mead and ale.

Fenris, being the sort of place it is, would likely to be able to produce hops (can grow in cool regions) than great amounts of honey. Somehow a flowery springtime seems inappropriate... but I suppose it can't all be grim and dark.

Ale:

Sw ale is laced with chemicals and poisons that overcome Asartes physiology.

Made by the SW themselves knowing that their bodies will eventually overcome the toxins.

They dont go into battle drunk.

Ale Ale we want more ale
Everybody's cheerin'
Get the fethin' beer in!!...

ah happy days

sorry all this talk of ale has made me reminisce.

Which actually makes me think that there are a lot of chaps on Dakka who proudly mention their drinking credentials.
If SW's are dumb on the basis of being beery boozers, by implication so are a goodly (badly?) proportion of Dakkites!

I'm tea total so that makes me a genius

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
I'm tea total so that makes me a genius

And designated driver?

not so clever after all!

Yeah he just made himself designated Thunderhawk pilot for the raid.

im not even going to read any of this topic but the title. and my answer: YES! dumber than rocks

Well I guess that well thought out and elequently argued post puts this one to bed!

you're very welcome. anytime

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:It just sounds like somebody lost a game to some space wolves recently...

Not at all. I'm trying to figure out which codex to use. It's between BA and SW. SW seems like a stronger 'dex, but their fluff is pants-on-head dumb in a lot of places. There are also no successor chapters, no real reason for a DIY to use SW rules, nothing. You're either Space Wolves or not. Unfortunately, I had a lot of my DIY fluff already established, and a Blood Angels successor fits it better due to the emphasis on recruiting based on intelligence and tactical acumen - but I like the SW codex more. Just trying to get a benchmark for how intelligent the Space Wolves are, as their codex has them coming off as quite feral and, obviously, wolf-like, and while a wolf might be cunning, I wouldn't say it was intelligent.

From what I know, there was a Space Wolves successor chapter called the Wolf Brothers. They didn't last long though, they suffered mutations from the Wulfen curse caused by the Canis Helix and were disbanded.

Um I hate to break it to you but your reasoning for posting this topic is completly contradictory, nowhere in any part of GW does it say that in order to use a certain codex you HAVE to play the chapter it represents or any of it's successors and I would be interested to find out where you got the idea because in 10 years of gaming this is the first time I've ever heard anything like this. If a player wanted to they could use the Vanilla Space Marine codex to represent Space Wolves, or Black Templars to represent Blood Angels. There is also a great thing called "counts as" in which you create a chapter and have it "counts as" another.

For instance I created a Maori themed chapter awhile back which was created with full intent of being represented using the Space Wolves codex. That dosen't mean that I had to make the chapter a successor of the Space Wolves or give them any relation at all. And besides that I believe that it has been shown more then adiquitly that the Space Wolves are not as you put it "pants-on-head dumb" and are in fact far from it. I'm not even sure how the fluff of the chapter can suggest that they're dumb either unless you completly missinterpreted what was said, "barbaric" yes but not dumb. In any way. Except for maybe Sven from the books, he's kind of special

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Um I hate to break it to you but your reasoning for posting this topic is completly contradictory, nowhere in any part of GW does it say that in order to use a certain codex you HAVE to play the chapter it represents or any of it's successors and I would be interested to find out where you got the idea because in 10 years of gaming this is the first time I've ever heard anything like this. If a player wanted to they could use the Vanilla Space Marine codex to represent Space Wolves, or Black Templars to represent Blood Angels. There is also a great thing called "counts as" in which you create a chapter and have it "counts as" another.

For instance I created a Maori themed chapter awhile back which was created with full intent of being represented using the Space Wolves codex. That dosen't mean that I had to make the chapter a successor of the Space Wolves or give them any relation at all. And besides that I believe that it has been shown more then adiquitly that the Space Wolves are not as you put it "pants-on-head dumb" and are in fact far from it. I'm not even sure how the fluff of the chapter can suggest that they're dumb either unless you completly missinterpreted what was said, "barbaric" yes but not dumb. In any way. Except for maybe Sven from the books, he's kind of special

That doesn't really work for people who like fluff, though. There's no reason anybody but Space Wolves would have Rune Priests or Thunderwolf Cavalry or actual wolves as troop choices. Counts-As is fine for Special Characters - in some cases - but it doesn't make a lot of sense when you're looking at whole themed codices. I get people using Blood Angels for Raven Guard and stuff like that, but Space Wolves are extremely unique, and have a lot of Space Wolf-only stuff.

My point about Space Wolves being dumb is as I said above: they're more feral than other Space Marine chapters, and I don't associate feral wolves with intelligence. Cunning, yes, but I would not want them to do my taxes.

Or plan complex battles.

Rascon wrote:

That doesn't really work for people who like fluff, though. There's no reason anybody but Space Wolves would have Rune Priests or Thunderwolf Cavalry or actual wolves as troop choices. Counts-As is fine for Special Characters - in some cases - but it doesn't make a lot of sense when you're looking at whole themed codices. I get people using Blood Angels for Raven Guard and stuff like that, but Space Wolves are extremely unique, and have a lot of Space Wolf-only stuff.

My point about Space Wolves being dumb is as I said above: they're more feral than other Space Marine chapters, and I don't associate feral wolves with intelligence. Cunning, yes, but I would not want them to do my taxes.

Or plan complex battles.

They can plan complex battle like nobodies business it's like hunting for them. Drive an enemy into the right place then take him out in a single move.
Although they probably would be shocking at taxes

Rascon wrote:

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Um I hate to break it to you but your reasoning for posting this topic is completly contradictory, nowhere in any part of GW does it say that in order to use a certain codex you HAVE to play the chapter it represents or any of it's successors and I would be interested to find out where you got the idea because in 10 years of gaming this is the first time I've ever heard anything like this. If a player wanted to they could use the Vanilla Space Marine codex to represent Space Wolves, or Black Templars to represent Blood Angels. There is also a great thing called "counts as" in which you create a chapter and have it "counts as" another.

For instance I created a Maori themed chapter awhile back which was created with full intent of being represented using the Space Wolves codex. That dosen't mean that I had to make the chapter a successor of the Space Wolves or give them any relation at all. And besides that I believe that it has been shown more then adiquitly that the Space Wolves are not as you put it "pants-on-head dumb" and are in fact far from it. I'm not even sure how the fluff of the chapter can suggest that they're dumb either unless you completly missinterpreted what was said, "barbaric" yes but not dumb. In any way. Except for maybe Sven from the books, he's kind of special

That doesn't really work for people who like fluff, though. There's no reason anybody but Space Wolves would have Rune Priests or Thunderwolf Cavalry or actual wolves as troop choices. Counts-As is fine for Special Characters - in some cases - but it doesn't make a lot of sense when you're looking at whole themed codices. I get people using Blood Angels for Raven Guard and stuff like that, but Space Wolves are extremely unique, and have a lot of Space Wolf-only stuff.

My point about Space Wolves being dumb is as I said above: they're more feral than other Space Marine chapters, and I don't associate feral wolves with intelligence. Cunning, yes, but I would not want them to do my taxes.

Or plan complex battles.

Seriously? Did you not listen to anything that anyone said above? did you even read the codex? I mean seriously I want to know because from my stand point it's like you know absolutly nothing about the Space Wolves. I mean NOTHING. You want complex battle plans? look up the Hunters Hunted where Erik Morkais company ambushed Dark eldar raiders, hmm ambush that's a complex battle plan. Or how about The War under the Ocean where an entire war was fought under water, is that complex enough for you? And what do you think that Logan Grimnar is one of the most adored figures within the Imperium because of his pearly white smile? it's because he is one of the greatest and most charismatic generals of the Imperium. You should get the idea that the Space Wolves are stupid brutes who just charge into every enemy and hope it works out of your head. That's the Orks.

Space Wolves are Space Marines in every since of the word and that means they are at least on par with every other Space Marine in the galaxy in every way and in some ways they are better including their tactical acumen which also means that they are above every other type of warrior in the Imperium. There is a reason they are known as the greatest protectors of humanity and do you think that any Space Marine would really be dumb or have no tactical knowledge? I mean really I want to know what you think space Marines are.

And I don't think you understand the concept of "counts as". those units that you have listed as "only working for Space Wolves" can work for ANY chapter especially DIY chapters if a little imagination is applied. Thunderwolf Cavalry has been represented in DIY chapters as lions, reptilian mounts, modified motorcycles, equine mounts, alien mounts and people have created their own fluff for them they are simply "counts as" TWC in game terms. Wolves? come one there are so many things that can count as wolves in a DIY chapter I represented them with war hounds in my celtic themed army and as war cats native american themed chapter. If you can't think of anything to fit your theme then you either don't want them in your army bad enough or you just aren't very creative.

And Rune Priests are one of the easiest units in the codex to do that with as well, it's called a Librarian and most chapters have them. And just in case you think I don't care about the fluff it's my main reason I play the game, I've created 19 chapters complete with history, homeworld, founding, battle tactics, legendary "counts as" units and 4 of which have actual models. I've created fluff for every single character and army that I've made and I make it a habit to buy every codex even if I don't play the army simply because I like fluff. Counts as is not only for characters and it works for EVERY codex. It seems to me that the only limitation you're facing is one of imagination because those units you stated are very easy fluff wise to represent in chapters other then the Space Wolves.

It also seems to me that you're suffering from "which army do I want to have" instead of which codex do you want to represent your army. If you want an army that is like the Space Wolves in the whole viking theme then just do it, it has been done before and nothing says that a chapter has to be a successor of another to share similar traits or units. If you want units like those in the Space Wolves codex without having the Space Wolves themselves then it is VERY VERY easy to do. Now if your going to be a stickler and say "well I want actual Rune Priests or I want actual TWC and wolves" then you know what get the idea of ANY Space Marine being intellectually lacking out of your head and be Space Wolves because unlike what you asked they are not dumb. And if you're dead set on having those exact units in your own created force the best you're going to get is a lost company when it comes to Space Wolves.

It seems you're wanting to have specific exact units from one codex in your DIY and your not happy that the particular units you want are in an army that dosen't give room for successors and because of it you are misinterpreting all the chapters fluff just because it dosen't give you what you want. But you know what you can't have everything. If you want those units then you have 2 choices you can either play as the Space Wolves or you can have similar units in your own DIY which will actually require some creative thinking. And you're lucky this wasen't posted on B&C because I think you'd be getting replies even harsher then those I'm giving.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Seriously? Did you not listen to anything that anyone said above? did you even read the codex? I mean seriously I want to know because from my stand point it's like you know absolutly nothing about the Space Wolves. I mean NOTHING. You want complex battle plans? look up the Hunters Hunted where Erik Morkais company ambushed Dark eldar raiders, hmm ambush that's a complex battle plan.

No, it isn't. Animals can do it. Again, that's what Space Wolves are: cunning. I've never disputed that they're cunning, as the codex drones on about it. Intelligence is different.

And what do you think that Logan Grimnar is one of the most adored figures within the Imperium because of his pearly white smile?

Sarah Palin is adored by a lot of Americans, but that doesn't mean she's smart.

You should get the idea that the Space Wolves are stupid brutes who just charge into every enemy and hope it works out of your head.

My idea is that they operate more on instinct and wolfy wolfiness than logic and reason. And I think you'd have a difficult time proving otherwise.

And I don't think you understand the concept of "counts as". those units that you have listed as "only working for Space Wolves" can work for ANY chapter especially DIY chapters if a little imagination is applied. Thunderwolf Cavalry has been represented in DIY chapters as lions, reptilian mounts, modified motorcycles, equine mounts, alien mounts and people have created their own fluff for them they are simply "counts as" TWC in game terms. Wolves? come one there are so many things that can count as wolves in a DIY chapter I represented them with war hounds in my celtic themed army and as war cats native american themed chapter. If you can't think of anything to fit your theme then you either don't want them in your army bad enough or you just aren't very creative.

Yeah, see, you can name them whatever you want, but when you plop them down on the table, you're going to call them what they actually are, or else your opponent's going to be annoyed that you really expect him to remember that Half Squats are really Grey Hunters and Full Dumps are really Long Fangs. Practicality trumps; if I'm going to be calling them Long Fangs all day, they might as well be Long Fangs. I also don't think it's the height of originality to go, "My chapter isn't Space Wolves! How dare you! We use geckos instead of wolves, come on!" It's a Space Wolf army with a different paint scheme and some conversions.

Rascon wrote:
Yeah, see, you can name them whatever you want, but when you plop them down on the table, you're going to call them what they actually are, or else your opponent's going to be annoyed that you really expect him to remember that Half Squats are really Grey Hunters and Full Dumps are really Long Fangs. Practicality trumps; if I'm going to be calling them Long Fangs all day, they might as well be Long Fangs. I also don't think it's the height of originality to go, "My chapter isn't Space Wolves! How dare you! We use geckos instead of wolves, come on!" It's a Space Wolf army with a different paint scheme and some conversions.

In all honesty you just seem to be cutting your nose off to spite your face. If the fluff you've come up with suits a particular codex more than another then just use it with that codex. If you're getting upset because you don't want to have to turn around and say that something you're fielding would count as such and such then that's your own prerogative and the only person you have to blame for that is yourself. Pretty much any other wargamer out there will gladly accept that unit X counts as unit Y so long as it's in some way similar (cavalry being cavalry, foot soldiers not being a tank, etc.) - and then you've got the people that love fluff, and they'll probably be more interested in talking to you about your Chapter's story anyway than arguing that your Long Fangs have pink hair and bunny ears rather than pointy teeth!

Gijouhei wrote:
In all honesty you just seem to be cutting your nose off to spite your face. If the fluff you've come up with suits a particular codex more than another then just use it with that codex. If you're getting upset because you don't want to have to turn around and say that something you're fielding would count as such and such then that's your own prerogative and the only person you have to blame for that is yourself. Pretty much any other wargamer out there will gladly accept that unit X counts as unit Y so long as it's in some way similar (cavalry being cavalry, foot soldiers not being a tank, etc.) - and then you've got the people that love fluff, and they'll probably be more interested in talking to you about your Chapter's story anyway than arguing that your Long Fangs have pink hair and bunny ears rather than pointy teeth!

Again, where I play, units are called what they're actually called so there's no confusion. One guy runs a Blood Angels successor, and uses Mephiston. In his chapter fluff, is it actually Mephiston? No. But it's referred to as Mephiston by everyone involved when a game's going, including the guy himself. You can tell me that your Grey Hunters are actually Black Vipers; they behave like Grey Hunters and use Grey Hunter rules, so I'll be calling them Grey Hunters, because I actually know what Grey Hunters are, as opposed to Black Vipers.

None of this has anything to do with whether or not Space Wolves are intelligent, though, so I'm not sure why it's being discussed.

read one of the SW books...

Thelaugher wrote:read one of the SW books...

Why, do they win a lot of chess matches in them?

Rascon wrote:

Thelaugher wrote:read one of the SW books...

Why, do they win a lot of chess matches in them?

Odly enough yes they do.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Seriously? Did you not listen to anything that anyone said above? did you even read the codex? I mean seriously I want to know because from my stand point it's like you know absolutly nothing about the Space Wolves. I mean NOTHING. You want complex battle plans? look up the Hunters Hunted where Erik Morkais company ambushed Dark eldar raiders, hmm ambush that's a complex battle plan.

No, it isn't. Animals can do it. Again, that's what Space Wolves are: cunning. I've never disputed that they're cunning, as the codex drones on about it. Intelligence is different.

Ok now I know that you don't know anything about Space Marines or Space Wolves and that you probably didn't even bother to read what has been said by anyone above. So how about you tell me what you believe it takes for the Space Wolves to be considered intelligent? what do they have to compose classical music? Create art on the scale of Van Gogh? write poetry? what?

And what do you think that Logan Grimnar is one of the most adored figures within the Imperium because of his pearly white smile?

Sarah Palin is adored by a lot of Americans, but that doesn't mean she's smart.

Alot of Americans like Sarah Palin because they think she is a MILF (please excuse my use of that word). And as I have said before to numerous people those who compare the happenings of a fictional universe to the real world really don't understand the point of the game or the stories behind it. If you really think that the leader of one of the oldest, most respected and most experienced chapters in the 40k universe is not intelligent in both matters of war as well as other areas then i say you are as unintelligent as you say the Space Wolves are.

You should get the idea that the Space Wolves are stupid brutes who just charge into every enemy and hope it works out of your head.

My idea is that they operate more on instinct and wolfy wolfiness than logic and reason. And I think you'd have a difficult time proving otherwise.

Umm actually no I don't have a difficult time proving that considering their are multiple pages containing posts which do just that located above this post. Maybe you have trouble understanding the big words that where used or maybe your so set in your idea of Space Wolves being stupid savages to have even read them. After reading your responses I'm inclined to think the former.

And I don't think you understand the concept of "counts as". those units that you have listed as "only working for Space Wolves" can work for ANY chapter especially DIY chapters if a little imagination is applied. Thunderwolf Cavalry has been represented in DIY chapters as lions, reptilian mounts, modified motorcycles, equine mounts, alien mounts and people have created their own fluff for them they are simply "counts as" TWC in game terms. Wolves? come one there are so many things that can count as wolves in a DIY chapter I represented them with war hounds in my celtic themed army and as war cats native american themed chapter. If you can't think of anything to fit your theme then you either don't want them in your army bad enough or you just aren't very creative.

Yeah, see, you can name them whatever you want, but when you plop them down on the table, you're going to call them what they actually are, or else your opponent's going to be annoyed that you really expect him to remember that Half Squats are really Grey Hunters and Full Dumps are really Long Fangs. Practicality trumps; if I'm going to be calling them Long Fangs all day, they might as well be Long Fangs. I also don't think it's the height of originality to go, "My chapter isn't Space Wolves! How dare you! We use geckos instead of wolves, come on!" It's a Space Wolf army with a different paint scheme and some conversions.

Really? that's why in every counts as army I've ever made which is quiet a few considering I've played for 10 years and own almost every army for both 40k and Fantasy I have called counts as units by their name I have given them and in 4 differant states no one has ever had a problem with it. NOT ONCE. If they wanted to know what the unit was (if they coulden't tell already) they simply had to ask. Now unlike you most players are mature enough to be able to accept the fact that it is still the same unit the player has just chosen to represent them differantly and with a differant name which is completly allowed as that is the wolhe point of being able to create your own army.

So instead of coming on here and talking as if you know anything about....well anything how about you quit your bitching that 40k dosen't fit what you think it should. Shut the hell up about Space Wolves being unintelligent especially when it has been shown repeatidly that they are in fact highly intelligent even though you obviously don't have the capacity to understand the fluff proven points that have been given. Also just for referance your idea of intelligence (which I'm assuming is at crayon level) does not mean that someone or something who does not reach those expectations is not intelligent. I will probably recieve a warning or something for this but this is one time I do not care. I am done with this ignorant, ill concieved, unintelligent, close minded discussion which never should have been made in the first place. You asked if Space Wolves are dumb, the answer is no and that answer relates to any deffinition of the word.

Everything he said +1

well as a thousand sons fan what i got from the space wolves in the book"a thousand sons" was that they are ignorant fools and as dumb as rocks.

Hey throw the Space Wolves a bone man. We may not be the smartest kids, but we get the job done.

@Necrongod

I would have to agree and disagree with you on that statement. I would agree that from the Thousand Son's perspective the Space Wolves were simply released upon them. From the outside there wasn't much consideration done by the Wolves when it came to bring Magnus to justice.

However, I believe that more of the story has to be told and I would imagine that there is much more to the Space Wolves motives in assaulting Prospero. I seem to remember the next book being "The Thousand Sons" from the Space Wolf perspective, I'm not sure if that is true though. I would agree that Russ seemed overly obedient when it came to carrying out the order to bring Magnus down, but in the Space Wolves fluff, there are countless suggestions that Russ himself has foreseen events to take place and that he intended for certain things to transpire (IE: the losing of the Spear of Russ, which sends Ragnar on a zealous quest to get it back, which ultimately foils an attempt by Magnus the Red to escape the warp. Also before he took his fleet into the Eye of Terror, he said that he would return when his chapter would need him again, adding to the evidence that he had some sort of foresight; whether this is ever fleshed out but GW writers is yet to be seen though.)

I think that Russ understood the implications of what was unfolding between he and his brothers and made his decision, and as previously mentioned, Space Wolves often use the guise of brutish behavior and single-minded attitude to their advantage when it comes to diplomacy and hiding their chapter's motives. IIRC there is a moment in "The Thousand Sons" where Ahiraman has a suspicion where that is the case. Ragnar also uses this tactic to better evaluate situations during his time with the Wolfblades in books 3-6 in the Space Wolves series.

I will be the first person to admit that Magnus got screwed by the Space Wolves, and that the Space Wolves were certainly too rash when it came to the fury they unleashed on Prospero, but I would also argue that Magnus was foolish in how he sought the power of the warp. How many people had to tell him in that book? His father, Himself, his most trusted captains. And yet he stubbornly (and almost unwittingly) plays the part of a pawn under the control of the life-forces in the warp. His actions after the Trail of Magnus left the Emperor with no other options, to have Russ take Magnus down, and his ceremony to try and intervene the corruption of Horus and attempt to warn the Emperor got him in further trouble.

I would argue that "Chaos" are the only really "intelligent" beings in the 40k universe. They have there motives, and play others against themselves so that their motives are fulfilled. Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE Space Wolves fan, but seeing Magnus slowly slide into his fate so obliviously mad me really feel for his chapter. I still cant believe that they went to Chaos, after all his talk of enlightenment and truth. I still cant make the link between the end of "Sons" and the rules of 40k. But I would argue that if Russ was simply ignorant and dumb as a rock, I think that his brother Magnus would fit under that label too.

(edited for spelling)

Rascon wrote:

Again, where I play, units are called what they're actually called so there's no confusion. One guy runs a Blood Angels successor, and uses Mephiston. In his chapter fluff, is it actually Mephiston? No. But it's referred to as Mephiston by everyone involved when a game's going, including the guy himself. You can tell me that your Grey Hunters are actually Black Vipers; they behave like Grey Hunters and use Grey Hunter rules, so I'll be calling them Grey Hunters, because I actually know what Grey Hunters are, as opposed to Black Vipers.

None of this has anything to do with whether or not Space Wolves are intelligent, though, so I'm not sure why it's being discussed.

This is close to a double post but.

I'm not going to get offended or angry that you think that my toy soldiers are dumb, but the above post makes absolutely no sense. If you're going to run a successor chapter or a "counts as" army at all of COURSE something like this will happen. You obviously have two choices.

Quit playing with 's who can't remember what something is despite the name and be creative.

or

Continue to only play the armies as is in the codex and quit crying about how "I just don't want to make them something else because if I'm gonna call them that then they might as well be that"

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Ok now I know that you don't know anything about Space Marines or Space Wolves and that you probably didn't even bother to read what has been said by anyone above. So how about you tell me what you believe it takes for the Space Wolves to be considered intelligent? what do they have to compose classical music? Create art on the scale of Van Gogh? write poetry? what?

I know quite a bit about them, actually. Like, for instance, that they possess feral cunning.

Alot of Americans like Sarah Palin because they think she is a MILF (please excuse my use of that word). And as I have said before to numerous people those who compare the happenings of a fictional universe to the real world really don't understand the point of the game or the stories behind it. If you really think that the leader of one of the oldest, most respected and most experienced chapters in the 40k universe is not intelligent in both matters of war as well as other areas then i say you are as unintelligent as you say the Space Wolves are.

You missed the point entirely. Popularity does not equal intelligence. You said, and I quote: "And what do you think that Logan Grimnar is one of the most adored figures within the Imperium because of his pearly white smile?" The implication being that he HAS to be intelligent because he's popular. I can think of plenty of popular people who aren't smart.

Umm actually no I don't have a difficult time proving that considering their are multiple pages containing posts which do just that located above this post. Maybe you have trouble understanding the big words that where used or maybe your so set in your idea of Space Wolves being stupid savages to have even read them. After reading your responses I'm inclined to think the former.

There aren't, actually. There are multiple pages of people making assertions with no corroborating evidence.

Really? that's why in every counts as army I've ever made which is quiet a few considering I've played for 10 years and own almost every army for both 40k and Fantasy I have called counts as units by their name I have given them and in 4 differant states no one has ever had a problem with it. NOT ONCE. If they wanted to know what the unit was (if they coulden't tell already) they simply had to ask. Now unlike you most players are mature enough to be able to accept the fact that it is still the same unit the player has just chosen to represent them differantly and with a differant name which is completly allowed as that is the wolhe point of being able to create your own army.

So instead of coming on here and talking as if you know anything about....well anything how about you quit your bitching that 40k dosen't fit what you think it should. Shut the hell up about Space Wolves being unintelligent especially when it has been shown repeatidly that they are in fact highly intelligent even though you obviously don't have the capacity to understand the fluff proven points that have been given. Also just for referance your idea of intelligence (which I'm assuming is at crayon level) does not mean that someone or something who does not reach those expectations is not intelligent. I will probably recieve a warning or something for this but this is one time I do not care. I am done with this ignorant, ill concieved, unintelligent, close minded discussion which never should have been made in the first place. You asked if Space Wolves are dumb, the answer is no and that answer relates to any deffinition of the word.

Honestly, if you're getting this upset, maybe it's time to take a step back. If you've really been playing for ten years, that suggests you're an adult, and I'm not sure that hyperventilating over a tabletop war game's hilariously trite background fluff is really what you want to be doing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheBlackVanguard wrote:
This is close to a double post but.

I'm not going to get offended or angry that you think that my toy soldiers are dumb, but the above post makes absolutely no sense. If you're going to run a successor chapter or a "counts as" army at all of COURSE something like this will happen. You obviously have two choices.

Quit playing with 's who can't remember what something is despite the name and be creative.

Why? I'm actually right there with them on this. Everyone thinks their own fluff/fan fiction is the GREATEST EVAR, but it's rather boorish to inflict it on other people regularly, don't you think?

Good grief is this still going?

They are called Space Wolves therefore they must be wolves and not human seems to be the reasoning behind the thread title.
Ergo Salamanders are reptilian and only have small brains, Grey Knights are grey and thus old fogies etc

Why ask a question if not open to other answers or was the title question rhetorical, in which case is only likely to cause offence. (even if it is slightlng the intelligence of a fictional race.)

The whole premise, in any case, is fallacious and pointless.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Good grief is this still going?

They are called Space Wolves therefore they must be wolves and not human seems to be the reasoning behind the thread title.
Ergo Salamanders are reptilian and only have small brains, Grey Knights are grey and thus old fogies etc

Why ask a question if not open to other answers or was the title question rhetorical, in which case is only likely to cause offence. (even if it is slightlng the intelligence of a fictional race.)

The whole premise, in any case, is fallacious and pointless.

Salamanders, to the best of my knowledge, have nothing like the Canis Helix.

I'm open to other answers, but not when said answers are little more than "NO U!" Space Wolves become more feral, not less, after Canis Helix implantation; we've had people claiming they have an easier time communicating by scent and body language than by speaking over the communication links in their helmets. It's not that they're called Space Wolves, it's that they act like wolves who, I've pointed out several times now I think, are quite cunning, but not what you could call intelligent. Everyone seems content to skip right over these points and instead get butthurt that the question was even asked, which is troubling for multiple reasons. They're fictional, guys. Calm down.

Rascon wrote:They're fictional, guys. Calm down.

You've openly stated yourself that the reason you've asked this question was because you wanted to base an army of your own creation around either the SW or BA codex. As per the quote above, seeing as how SW's, BA's and your own army would all be fiction, surely it doesn't matter whether or not the foundation army is intelligent because... tadaaa... they're all works of fiction! If you lack the level of maturity to field units as something else without having the compulsion to refer to them as their basis unit then perhaps you ought to consider playing a different game.

As has been mentioned, you seem very oblivious to the sensical answers that have been given you that outright display arguments and facts that prove the intelligence of SW's.

Definition of intelligence: "Intelligence is an umbrella term describing a property of the mind comprehending related abilities, such as the capacities for abstract thought, reasoning, planning and problem solving, the use of language, and to learn."

All of which the Space Wolves display on a daily basis. Perhaps if you wanted to know if they had a genius level intellect then you should have phrased your question as such. If you can't place forward an intelligent argument to any of this then surely all we can assume is that you're a troll and should thus be ignored?

Gijouhei wrote:

Rascon wrote:They're fictional, guys. Calm down.

You've openly stated yourself that the reason you've asked this question was because you wanted to base an army of your own creation around either the SW or BA codex.

No, I didn't. I said that I'd wanted to go with a DIY successor chapter, but that I liked the playstyle of the SW codex, and if I was going to use it, it'd make the most sense to actually go with Space Wolves rather than simply changing "wolf" to "hamster" and calling it original.

As has been mentioned, you seem very oblivious to the sensical answers that have been given you that outright display arguments and facts that prove the intelligence of SW's.

You stalwart defenders of the Space Wolves' honor keep saying this, yet seem unable to point me to any of these answers when I ask. Please provide the facts you speak of.

Definition of intelligence: "Intelligence is an umbrella term describing a property of the mind comprehending related abilities, such as the capacities for abstract thought, reasoning, planning and problem solving, the use of language, and to learn."

All of which the Space Wolves display on a daily basis. Perhaps if you wanted to know if they had a genius level intellect then you should have phrased your question as such.

Ah, now we come to the crux of the argument. Do they possess intelligence? By that definition, of course they do, as do all humans. What you and all the others seem to be missing, though, is the argument to be made that they rely on it less than other Space Marines. Why? Because their feral nature is enhanced, not reduced, by the Canis Helix and chapter culture. I haven't seen anyone even attempt to dispute that they are, in fact, far more feral than the average Space Marine. I've seen the opposite, in fact; people have talked up their communication by scent and body language, their pack mentality, and all the rest of it as though they weren't aware that such is animal behavior.

Someone else pointed out that there is no logic in letting pack numbers dwindle down to nothing, and the response received was that integrating packs simply wouldn't work because "real wolf packs don't." Aside from the fact that that's not true, that's not the triumph of intelligent reasoning, that's the triumph of animal instinct. Much of their chapter seems to be based on the latter rather than the former.

If you can't place forward an intelligent argument to any of this then surely all we can assume is that you're a troll and should thus be ignored?

You can assume what you like, of course, though I assure you that assuming I'm a troll is a far more kind assumption than the one I make about guys with Space Wolf tags under their names becoming genuinely enraged in this thread.

They beat The Thousand Sons on their own planet. Are you calling them dumb too...because i believe they were one of the smarter legions and they were beaten from pretty much every angle.

And Rascon...i would like a list of all the SW sources that you have read that could back up some of the stuff you are saying please.

Cunning: showing or made with ingenuity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ah, now we come to the crux of the argument. Do they possess intelligence? By that definition, of course they do, as do all humans. What you and all the others seem to be missing, though, is the argument to be made that they rely on it less than other Space Marines. Why? Because their feral nature is enhanced, not reduced, by the Canis Helix and chapter culture. I haven't seen anyone even attempt to dispute that they are, in fact, far more feral than the average Space Marine. I've seen the opposite, in fact; people have talked up their communication by scent and body language, their pack mentality, and all the rest of it as though they weren't aware that such is animal behavior.

Someone else pointed out that there is no logic in letting pack numbers dwindle down to nothing, and the response received was that integrating packs simply wouldn't work because "real wolf packs don't." Aside from the fact that that's not true, that's not the triumph of intelligent reasoning, that's the triumph of animal instinct. Much of their chapter seems to be based on the latter rather than the former.

The original post didn't ask that they use their intelligence less than other chapters.

In the second sentence you answered your own question by the way.

From what I can tell, we have two groups of people that are fiercely divided on the meaning of "smarts" or "intelligent", and there is clearly no persuading one side or the other to see the other person's view.

@Rascon

I don't know what you think this thread is. Its certainly not a thesis paper or a courtroom, and we don't need sourced facts about the intelligence of the Space Wolves. Even if we did, you'd have to provide sources of how the Space Wolves suffer from... what ever affliction you think they have... that causes them to not be considered intelligent. From what I'm getting from your side of the story is that the Space Wolves don't exhibit enough "intelligence" for you to accept them as having wit. In my opinion that's just ignoring some of the arguments that people have posted in this thread. I'll give you the fact that Space Wolves are infused with some sort of instinct that is animalistic in nature, but those instincts aren't going to delete all sense and smarts once a Space Wolf accepts the Canis Helix. Instinct and Intelligence are two things that are complimentary, not substitutional. People did used to believe that once you learned something new, they forgot something old, and that is the impression that I'm getting from your argument.....

If there is a standard of having wit and intelligence, can you provide a benchmark so that the Space Wolves can be rated against someone truly intelligent so that we can all move on?

Facts aren't debatable unless your a troll, opinions are debatable that's why this thread is lasting as long as it is. This thread should have not lasted past page 2.

Erik Wolfbrother wrote:

@Rascon

I don't know what you think this thread is. Its certainly not a thesis paper or a courtroom, and we don't need sourced facts about the intelligence of the Space Wolves.

You do if you want them to be considered facts, rather than simply opinions.

Even if we did, you'd have to provide sources of how the Space Wolves suffer from... what ever affliction you think they have... that causes them to not be considered intelligent. From what I'm getting from your side of the story is that the Space Wolves don't exhibit enough "intelligence" for you to accept them as having wit.

Wit? You mean like humor?

No, I've fully granted several times now that they do in fact have intelligence. The definition of the word itself makes it clear. You're right, though, in that the thread probably should have been titled, "Are Space Wolves as smart as the average Space Marine?"

In my opinion that's just ignoring some of the arguments that people have posted in this thread. I'll give you the fact that Space Wolves are infused with some sort of instinct that is animalistic in nature, but those instincts aren't going to delete all sense and smarts once a Space Wolf accepts the Canis Helix. Instinct and Intelligence are two things that are complimentary, not substitutional. People did used to believe that once you learned something new, they forgot something old, and that is the impression that I'm getting from your argument.....

Then I'm expressing myself badly, as that's not the argument I'm making. Can animal instinct and human logical ability be used in conjunction? I suppose so. But I still think the example mentioned earlier in the thread of Space Wolves refusing to reinforce packs is an example of animal instinct winning out OVER human logic, as there were some fairly weak arguments thrown out in an effort to make it seem like it's a great idea to leave two Long Fangs all by their lonesome just because their buddies died. Wolfy wolftastic wolfinstinct beating out human logic seems to me to be a prevailing theme of Space Wolf culture and tactica.

If there is a standard of having wit and intelligence, can you provide a benchmark so that the Space Wolves can be rated against someone truly intelligent so that we can all move on?

Wish I could. But for the record, I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to continue discussing the topic.


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Thelaugher wrote:They beat The Thousand Sons on their own planet. Are you calling them dumb too...because i believe they were one of the smarter legions and they were beaten from pretty much every angle.

Even Napoleon got beaten now and then.

And Rascon...i would like a list of all the SW sources that you have read that could back up some of the stuff you are saying please.

Sure! The Space Wolves codex. If you've got contradictory fluff, please feel free to provide it, because I'm not going to wade through six books' worth of fanwank looking for it myself.

The reasons they don't reinforce has already been mentioned...saying it dumb and saying their dumb is an opinion, their are plenty of traditions in the world that many of us would deem inefficient. But this is not the case with SW. It is obviously working. And working better than many other chapters. The SW have been around for 10 thousand years and have kept most of their traditions without breaking into successor chapters.

There have been a few solid factual statements in this thread that provide Space Wolf intelligence. There have been opinions of how certain thing are characteristic of not being smart things to do. I'll agree that leaving slots open in squads that have suffered casualties is unorthodox, I wouldn't say that it is foolish, that is simply my opinion. Your opinion is that that is foolish. I think you are associating refusing to reinforce packs with instinct because it is "not the most effective" thing to do.

If you met an tribesman in remote Africa that still hunted with a blowgun, would you offer him a high power rifle claiming that, "Your instinct to use your blowgun is winning out over your human logic to use my high powered rifle. It clearly is better."? His use of the blowgun isn't anything but different to me or you, just as our use of a gun is different to him. His tradition is why he chooses the blowgun, and why the Space Wolves don't replace lost members of their packs and that has nothing to do with instinct, that is culture. Beyond that point of evaluation, any statement about the Space Wolves refusal to beef up their units is entirely opinion.

Something that bothers me about this whole thread is that people like the OP look at intelligence one way. So what if the Space Wolves don't sit around with their free time painting pictures and writing books. Does that actually represent intelligence? Merely a facet of it, I think. If writing or painting is the only way to become truly wise by the OP's standards, most of us will never get there, aside from the mini's we paint. But that is not the only intelligence that matters. As has been stated countless times, Space Wolves may lack that artsy intelligence, but they make up for it in combat and tactical planning. While the BA's paint a picture, the Space Wolves are training their bodies for the next battle. And lets be completely honest here, not EVERY SW or BA is gifted with the ability to be the next Great Wolf or Chapter Master. Not every BA paints a picture worth hanging in the halls of their fortress to be remembered for the ages, but that does not make the pursuit any less important. The Space Wolves develop combat intelligence, training and learning how to parry that next attack, or how to better read their opponents in the heat of battle in the training chamber, and take that knowledge to the next battle. Not every single one will make Wolf Guard, but that does not mean they will not become smarter fighters.

I don't really care if this is a legitimate form of intelligence, but on the battlefield, I would take the "feral cunning" that the OP seems to loathe so much over the fingerpainting skills most BA's develop any day of the week.

Also, for anyone who thinks not reinforcing packs is a good idea, look at WWII and 101st "Easy Company". The "Band of Brothers" movies show exactly how disastrous adding members to seasoned squads can be. They got killed and got the vets killed. Sure, the war acclimated them over time and they grew to be one of the squad, but when you are dealing with a 10 man pack vs. a 144 man company, even one man used to reinforce a 10 man pack could lead to a much more disastrous in the grim dark scenarios of the 40k universe.

You have to know how bull headed a Blood Claw really is to understand why you don't want one of them joining your pack, lol.

Erik Wolfbrother wrote:There have been a few solid factual statements in this thread that provide Space Wolf intelligence.

Then it should be very easy to point to some of them. I've asked for this about four times now, and no one's done it.

I think you are associating refusing to reinforce packs with instinct because it is "not the most effective" thing to do.

No, I've associated it with animal instinct because people have blatantly said that's what it is, that packs don't mix because, you know, wolf packs don't mix. Which isn't even true, to begin with, but it's what was asserted.

If you met an tribesman in remote Africa that still hunted with a blowgun, would you offer him a high power rifle claiming that, "Your instinct to use your blowgun is winning out over your human logic to use my high powered rifle. It clearly is better."? His use of the blowgun isn't anything but different to me or you, just as our use of a gun is different to him. His tradition is why he chooses the blowgun, and why the Space Wolves don't replace lost members of their packs and that has nothing to do with instinct, that is culture. Beyond that point of evaluation, any statement about the Space Wolves refusal to beef up their units is entirely opinion.

If you met a Union general in 1852 and offered him a couple crates of M-16s to use instead of hand-loaded rifles and he refused due to cultural reasons, or superstition, would you think that was a very smart thing to do? Culture peculiarities or antiquities are fine and dandy, but not using the right tool for the right job in war, or deliberately limiting your combat effectiveness because you think you're a wolf, is plain not smart.

And to the folks who say that no, it's plenty smart because the Space Wolves have endured, consider that they've always been an understrength legion, and that their size hasn't fundamentally changed since the Heresy despite not truly being splintered like all the other loyalists. That tells me they waste an awful lot of blood. And, of course, they do. If a squad of 10 Grey Hunters is killed down to 2 Grey Hunters, those 2 Grey Hunters are left on their own rather than reinforced. Are those 2 Grey Hunters as combat effective as 10 Grey Hunters? Of course not. Yet you guys are trying your hardest to make it sound like a perfectly reasonable idea to simply leave them as-is and keep sending them in until they die due to being woefully undermanned for whatever they would be tasked to do as Grey Hunters.


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Topher21 wrote:
Also, for anyone who thinks not reinforcing packs is a good idea, look at WWII and 101st "Easy Company". The "Band of Brothers" movies show exactly how disastrous adding members to seasoned squads can be. They got killed and got the vets killed. Sure, the war acclimated them over time and they grew to be one of the squad, but when you are dealing with a 10 man pack vs. a 144 man company, even one man used to reinforce a 10 man pack could lead to a much more disastrous in the grim dark scenarios of the 40k universe.

That would be a perfectly valid point...if every other Space Marine chapter in existence didn't reinforce understrength squads. The ONLY thing it can be attributed to with Space Wolves is wolftastic wolfiness.

Topher21 wrote:While the BA's paint a picture, the Space Wolves are training their bodies for the next battle.

Really? I thought they were busy getting drunk.

Rascon - is the ability to read a write not intelligent enough for you?

Did you just try and compare a fictional scenario involving time travel to a realistic fiction scenario that's being compared to sci-fiction tabletop game lore?

Undersized legion? The Astartes don't use legions anymore?

O, i'm sry i see you've read the codex and therefore can judge better than people who have read most SW novels. Even if we can't properly convince you...you should take our word for it.

^Why try he is a troll.

Thelaugher wrote:Rascon - is the ability to read a write not intelligent enough for you?

No.

Did you just try and compare a fictional scenario involving time travel to a realistic fiction scenario that's being compared to sci-fiction tabletop game lore?

I did. And it's still not the dumbest of the three.

Undersized legion? The Astartes don't use legions anymore?

But they did. And when they did, the Space Wolves were considered a small legion.

O, i'm sry i see you've read the codex and therefore can judge better than people who have read most SW novels. Even if we can't properly convince you...you should take our word for it.

Why, because you have a higher tolerance for bad writing than I do?

"I've read the books, they're smart," is about as vague as you can get.

Why don't you like Space Wolves?

They aren't dumb they just do things according to tradition even if the tradition is pretty dumb then again most traditions are pretty dumb... like cheese rolling.

Thelaugher wrote:Why don't you like Space Wolves?

I like them fine, I just think they'd be horrible Jeopardy contestants.

Again why the question for a thread title?
You obviously don't wish to be convinced by the arguments against your opinion.
You may as well have been honest and made it a statement.

Upholding traditional values does not mean a lack of intelligence. There have been many great thinkers that have had to work within traditions of sometimes very restrictive cultures.

Another problem largely revolves around an inability to grasp that what you call animal cunning (presumably in the sense of slyness) is not totally exclusive of human rational intelligence.

The Canix helix shows no evidence as far as I am aware of restricting human intelligence in the successful candidates.

On every argument you put forward there is the mistake of equating what you see as a negative attribute with a lack of intelligence and every time people have shown this to be erroneous.
Having been backed into a corner you are merely being stubborn and this thread is going nowhere.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Again why the question for a thread title?
You obviously don't wish to be convinced by the arguments against your opinion.

There haven't been any, aside from, "Space Wolves are just as smart or smarter than everybody else!"

Upholding traditional values does not mean a lack of intelligence. There have been many great thinkers that have had to work within traditions of sometimes very restrictive cultures.

It certainly can show a lack of intelligence or logic, if those traditional values are detrimental.

Another problem largely revolves around an inability to grasp that what you call animal cunning (presumably in the sense of slyness) is not totally exclusive of human rational intelligence.

Actually, if you read the thread, you'd see that I did the exact opposite of that. Instinct and intelligence can coexist quite peacefully and successfully. However, many of the Space Wolves' "cultural" decisions seem to be instinct-based at the EXPENSE of logic, such as refusing to reinforce understrength packs.

On every argument you put forward there is the mistake of equating what you see as a negative attribute with a lack of intelligence and every time people have shown this to be erroneous.

No, they really haven't. They've shown that they haven't thought it through.

Having been backed into a corner you are merely being stubborn and this thread is going nowhere.

I'm merely being indifferent to blind assertions of, "Nuh uh, I'm right." If you don't like that I'm actually asking for some evidence to back up your personal interpretation of the fluff, I'm sorry, but tough.

Try listening to reasoned arguments.
That is a sign of intelligence.

There have been enough posts that have given good reasons why the SW's are not stupid.
But you continue to be wholly indifferent to anything other than your own, unsubstantiated claims.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
There have been enough posts that have given good reasons why the SW's are not stupid.

You should be more than capable of pointing some out, then. This is now the fifth time I'm asking someone to do just that, and no one seems capable.

@Rascon

I have provided examples of where the Space Wolves show intelligence, yet you claim that there haven't been any cases. In my post to Necrongod I used two events in the SW books and "The Thousand Sons" to offer up them having intelligence. If you accept them however... that is totally up to you, but ignoring the few non-opinion based facts in this thread is just ridiculous.

Secondly, you cant hold us to a standard that you aren't willing to meet yourself. If you don't want to look through 6 books of "fanwank" for things to back up your side of the story, then you cant expect us to do the same. I have given you scenarios where Ragnar held back on action until he had a clear picture of events. If Ragnar were unintelligent, he would have been jumping at shadows the ENTIRE series. He learned from his older Wolfblades and played the role of silent warrior in order to fully understand the whole picture. There is no way you can consider that a non factual statement, and if you do, then you're clearly not fit for debating this topic.

Again you say the following lack of tradition instead of logic is detrimental. Again, I will admit that the SWs do some things that are less than efficient, but being less that efficient is not the same thing as detrimental. Detrimental is an opinionated word the way you used it to describe the SW traditions. Shooting yourself in the head is detrimental to living (objective way of using the word detrimental, there is no arguing that shooting yourself in the head is not going to be bad for you). Watching too much TV is detrimental to young adults (that is an opinionated way of using the word detrimental; what if those teenagers were watching the news or C-SPAN? It totally is based of someone's perspective of the shows they watch or the time that they spend watching TV, a totally opinionated value anyway).

Keeping packs at lower numbers, IN YOUR OPINION is bad. Often times packs don't fall below 50%, and if they did, you now have a new squad of Wolf Scouts that were once a pack or coordinated Grey Hunters. Or those few that survive being Scouts become Wolf Guard. Its not like those that are left alive are stuck there until every last one of them is dead. That would be foolish IN MY OPINION, but that doesn't happen anyway unless all but one of a pack is killed and then the survivor becomes a Lone Wolf. Survivors move up the command chain as the weaker pack members are lost for whatever reason. The ones that survive are seen as having some sort of skill/value/purpose for being around and they are given more responsibility to lead or wield heavy weapons as they are elevated from their old squad rank.

"I'm merely being indifferent to blind assertions of, "Nuh uh, I'm right." If you don't like that I'm actually asking for some evidence to back up your personal interpretation of the fluff, I'm sorry, but tough."

Again, this is a total lack of being able to see a differing perspective. And again you call for proof while you are clinging to one or two choice arguments without any fact-based back up of your own. Before I asked for a hypothetical benchmark of an intelligent chapter, and you disregarded the question. The reason that this thread has gone so far is because people on both sides of the argument REFUSE to yield to the counter argument's points, and simply dispel them as being a "Nuh uh" statement. I have addressed your points in objective ways, but I'm relatively sure that you won't count my points as valid or factual because your refuse to yield. Your mind is already made up and there is no convincing you of anything different.

If there is one key to communicating to someone on the other side of an argument, its being able to listen to other peoples ideas and trying to see some merit to their points. If there isn't atleast some attempt at rhetoric, then we all might as well have our fingers plugged in our ears...................................

See everyone that's just the problem. Rascon is so dense that he refuses to see that all of his points have been disproven already because he dosen't think that the answers given actually qualify as answers. That's why he keeps saying give me actual evidence when that is exactly what people have done, and when he has been told to actually read the sources of the evidence he has dismissed it as bad writing. He also claims to be completly open to the idea of the Space Wolves being intelligent if evidence is given, what kind of person makes such a statement and then dismisses a viable source of such evidence as bad writing? A person who has no intention of listening to anything that dosen't agree with his stance.

This thread will go no further, he is set in believing that the Space Wolves are mentaly incompetent simply because there is not a specific line in the codex that says "All Space Wolves are supreme tactical thinkers" which considering not a single Space Marine codex says as much that would mean that by his standards no Space Marine is intelligent. He fails to see that as the Space Marines where created to be the greatest warriors of humanity in every way this includes having a mental aptitude at a higher then average level. A higher level of intelligence is implied in their very purpose and existance and applies to every chapter and is not affected by the traditions of the chapter.

He says that no one has answered his questions yet they already have been answered he just fails to see them as answers based off of his own opinions which makes any effort to educate him a fools errand. You cannot enlighten someone who does not want to be enlightened. And funny enough he says that no one has answered his questions and yet those questions that have been directed at him have actually gone unanswered, especially the one asking that he give a standard that he believes the Space Wolves should reach in order to be considered intelligent. For someone who is so strongly advocating the idea that the Space Wolves are unintelligent and rely more on instinct then clear thinking you would think he would be able to provide an example of what he qualifies as "using logic over instinct" so that it can be determined if the Space Wolves meet the standard which I have no doubt that they would.

Also his main argument for the Space Wolves general stupidity seems to either come from the point of Space wolves not reinforcing squads that have lost members or the idea that they communicate more effectivly through their enhanced senses then through the comm system of their helmets. He says that the fact that no other chapter does this means that it can hardly be considered intelligent. In that case then every single Space Marine chapter is unintelligent because every chapter has a practice that would not be considered tactically sound by real world military and among each of these chapters the practice exists solely within that chapter as a time honored tradition. And in relation to his dismissing the idea of the squad communicating more effectivly through sent he fails to see that the Space Wolves enhanced senses allow them to track opponents, identify a persons mood which can allow them to better understand a situation them simple words can, verify a beings location as well as many other actions when the helmet can do none of these things which is why most Space Wolves don't wear them.

In the begining this thread started off as a possibly viable discussion concerning the intelligence level of the Space Wolves chapter, although common sense would have lead any mature person who does not outright dislike the Space Wolves to the correct answer the thread still had ground as a discussion. It quickly was established however that the troll who created this thread had no intention of actually listening to any point given to him nor did he wish to actually discuss it. He simply wanted to make his opinion known as well as complain about his own self imposed limitations. Therefore I suggest to any individual who is reading this thread and agreeing with the multitude of members who have provided solid, factual, cannon driven evidence against the creators points and agree that the thread will simply go around in circles ignore the thread instead of responding. It does not deserve the attention that it is recieving and should have been closed already.

Rascon wrote:

You should be more than capable of pointing some out, then. This is now the fifth time I'm asking someone to do just that, and no one seems capable.

Yup I am more than capable
You go looksee for yourself while I put the kettle on for a cuppa.
You have not provided any reasonable evidence as to why they are stupid other than your own subjective musings.
I have taken enough time to show you why that is not acceptable on the grounds of your erroneous conflating of certain SW characterstics with stupidity.

Would you say Rommell was dumb coz he was called the Desert Fox. Foxes are cunning and sly and therefore cannot possibly be intelligent, ergo Rommell was a thicko?

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:the helmet can do none of these things which is why most Space Wolves don't wear them.

Space Wolves don't wear helmets?

Yeah, they're officially dumb.

Therefore I suggest to any individual who is reading this thread and agreeing with the multitude of members who have provided solid, factual, cannon driven evidence against the creators points and agree that the thread will simply go around in circles ignore the thread instead of responding. It does not deserve the attention that it is recieving and should have been closed already.

Wilco
is fair comment. The troll has had enough food on this one.
bye bye

Space Wolves do wear helmets...

Thelaugher wrote:Space Wolves do wear helmets...

Warboss Imbad Ironskull appears to contradict you, sir, in stating that most of them do not.

So that they can smell things better.

Don't SM helmets have autosenses?

Key word is most. Which means that some do.

Thelaugher wrote:Key word is most. Which means that some do.

You Space Wolf guys really crack me up.

Some SM sergeants don't wear helmets either.

Yes but in that example they are the FEW where as MOST of the space wolves care not for helmets

DA's Forever wrote:Yes but in that example they are the FEW where as MOST of the space wolves care not for helmets

Also, I'm fairly sure that's just a modeling convention to easily differentiate the sergeant from the rest of the squad.

As I said, if "most" Space Wolves really don't wear helmets, argument's over, they're dumb. Risking taking a stray round in the teeth just so you can tell if your buddy's angry or constipated or whatever by how he smells is dumb. End of argument.

Seaward wrote:

DA's Forever wrote:Yes but in that example they are the FEW where as MOST of the space wolves care not for helmets

Also, I'm fairly sure that's just a modeling convention to easily differentiate the sergeant from the rest of the squad.

As I said, if "most" Space Wolves really don't wear helmets, argument's over, they're dumb. Risking taking a stray round in the teeth just so you can tell if your buddy's angry or constipated or whatever by how he smells is dumb. End of argument.

They carry their helmets with them so they can put it on buit they also use their senses to find enemies, co-ordinate pack movements and judge how far an enemy is as well as where they have gone. Overall for SW it's easier to carry their helmets and put them on if they need to rather than wear them all the time.

purplefood wrote:
They carry their helmets with them so they can put it on buit they also use their senses to find enemies, co-ordinate pack movements and judge how far an enemy is as well as where they have gone. Overall for SW it's easier to carry their helmets and put them on if they need to rather than wear them all the time.

I feel like a lot of people in this thread just make things up as things occur to them.

Seaward wrote:

purplefood wrote:
They carry their helmets with them so they can put it on buit they also use their senses to find enemies, co-ordinate pack movements and judge how far an enemy is as well as where they have gone. Overall for SW it's easier to carry their helmets and put them on if they need to rather than wear them all the time.

I feel like a lot of people in this thread just make things up as things occur to them.

He's right. There's mention in pretty much every single one of the SW novels that they wear their helmets into battle or carry them - they then remove/don them as needed.

Can a mod close this thread or something now? It's just getting plain silly.

Gijouhei wrote:

Seaward wrote:

purplefood wrote:
They carry their helmets with them so they can put it on buit they also use their senses to find enemies, co-ordinate pack movements and judge how far an enemy is as well as where they have gone. Overall for SW it's easier to carry their helmets and put them on if they need to rather than wear them all the time.

I feel like a lot of people in this thread just make things up as things occur to them.

He's right. There's mention in pretty much every single one of the SW novels that they wear their helmets into battle or carry them - they then remove/don them as needed.

Can a mod close this thread or something now? It's just getting plain silly.

Then we're back to square one. I imagine most marines don't wear their helmets when they're not in combat. Again, this started because some dude said most Space Wolves don't wear helmets. You guys need to get on the same page.

Seaward wrote:

I feel like a lot of people in this thread just make things up as things occur to them.

All this information sounds new to you because you haven't read more than one SW source.

Thelaugher wrote:

Seaward wrote:

I feel like a lot of people in this thread just make things up as things occur to them.

All this information sounds new to you because you haven't read more than one SW source.

You're confusing me with the other guy.

Seaward wrote:

Thelaugher wrote:

Seaward wrote:

I feel like a lot of people in this thread just make things up as things occur to them.

All this information sounds new to you because you haven't read more than one SW source.

You're confusing me with the other guy.

It isn't made up though.
If you have read the Space Wolf series you should know that.

purplefood wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Thelaugher wrote:

Seaward wrote:

I feel like a lot of people in this thread just make things up as things occur to them.

All this information sounds new to you because you haven't read more than one SW source.

You're confusing me with the other guy.

It isn't made up though.
If you have read the Space Wolf series you should know that.

I read Dan Abnett's Lone Wolves thing. They fight without helmets in that.

Yes, I think this thread has fulfilled its usefulness and should be locked now.