Short and simple: Is just my imagination or is there a space marines player for every other army type at any given game store. The current count at mine is 8 space marines 2 chaos daemons 1 tyranid and 2 imperial guard players.

It seems to me, sorry if i step on any ones toes here, that space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

Dont get me wrong but they are a good army but i would like to see a little diversity.

1. Welcome to Dakka-Dakka! Thanks for joining.

2. I, too, would like more diversity in my opponents.

3. If you want diversity, make some! Make an orc army or eldar or the up-coming dark eldar. Win with it. The marine players might then become interested in other armys. (my second army is orcs, but my first is Black Templar).

4. Get used to it, though. They've always been the most popular army, and they always will be.

5. This topic comes up frequently.

^
agreed. Space marines are GW big sales army. Young kids are most attracted to them. (damn you ultramarines!)
There are also a lot of SM in my local GW. don't know exactly how much, but it's a lot. But most of them are space wolves or blood angels.
I would like to see more 'succesful' Imperial guard armies. with succesfull Guard armies I mean armies that are actually legal to play with.

When half the codexes are marine ones it's no wonder that half the players play marines.

But anyway, I think it's because marines are a rather "friendly" army, rather cheap to build, rather good in combat, rather shooty, rather survivable.
People who is drawn to some sort of theme often go for one of the other armies.

Well there are 5 space marine armies (6 if you include chaos but I wouldn't really). There are 9/10 (3 of which are considered relatively rare [DH, WH, DE for a few weeks]) Combined with the fact GW advertises space marine mostly (IIRC, they're the heroes in the dawn of war series, there is a new game coming actually called 'space marine', a movie 'ultramarines' which acturally includes the phase 'and the greatest of them are the ultramarines' and are generally portrayed as heroes everywhere) it isn't really suprising they are the most popular army out there.

PS: You've also spelled 'many' wrong in your tittle.

I daresay there aren't enough Marine armies. They should release the Angry Marines Codex next!

I think it has to do with cost as well. Space marines are generally a little cheaper to get into for the hobby. With so many players already out there you can get a used army pretty cheap, and space marines are not that expensive to start.

^
no! no more marine codexes. I would sue GW if they did more marine codexes. if they continou to produce new SM codexes, I want an imperial guard codex for every famous Guard regiment. (Preatorians, vostroyans, tallarns, etc)

being cheap and well-supported makes them a great 'second army' for a lot of people as well, i'd bet... Especially if you really ant to do something wacky like hordes of IG or Orks, you can build a small secondary Space Marine force pretty quickly.

Still waiting on my Black Templar codex update, though. *whistles with hands in pockets*

Too many n's in your title, more importantly

Yes, everyone knows there's too many marine players. That happens when most codexii are marines though..

SM
DA
BA
BT
SW
CSM
GK
~versus~
Eldar
Tau
Nids
Daemons
guard
WH
DE
Necrons
Daemons


Think about that for a second. 7 out of 16 codexii are marines

It's pretty easy to collect and army when a small one comes bundled with the main game. Marine armies are tactically forgiving and cheaper to collect than the horde armies and more specialised things like Tau and Dark Eldar.

Marines are indeed an easy army to get into. I don't beleve there has been a starter set in the history of 40K that has NOT included Marines!
Horde armies take forever to assemble, paint and base. Guard, Orks, and Nids all require the purchase of scads of crappy Troops units to start playing, at a cash premium to boot. Guardsmen used to come in big boxes of 20, now they come in small boxes of 10. You need a big old pile of those boxes to build anything but a Veteran-based army. Sure, you can go minimal infantry, and concentrate on tanks, but those are even harder on the wallet.
A Marine Battleforce gives you a playable army almost out of the box. Just buy a Commader kit, or a metal HQ model, and get to it. Add in the Black Reach stuff, and you have a spectacular starting force that you could actually win with.
The only other comparable army to start up with are Chaos Marines, because they're structured in about the same way.

Marines are also very forgiving for beginning painters. Lots of broad armor areas, almost no skin, and plenty of gunmetal to paint makes them pretty quick to get onto the table. I'd venture to say only Necrons are easier to get onto the table.

The middle-of-the-road statline and utility of Marine Tac Squads also make them very easy to learn the game mechanics with. Not a whole lot of special rules, and all of their unit upgrades are wargear/armament related. You don't have to memorize a bunch of +this and +that upgrades like you do with Nids, or complicated systems like Faith Points.

Then comes the "heroic imagery" that Marines possess. When I first started the game, and wanted to pick an army, I wanted something that looked solid, could take a beating and keep playing, and had rules that could mimic my time in the USMC. Someone recommended Guard, because they played more like real military units, and weren't 8-foot-tall supermen. I pointed out that clearly the person had never met a US Marine in real life

About half to Codexes are Space Marine Codexes. Makes sense that atleast half of the player would be Space Marines.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:About half to Codexes are Space Marine Codexes. Makes sense that atleast half of the player would be Space Marines.

+1

this pretty much somes it up. if half the players are playing marines logically GW (because it is a business) is going to keep pushing the thing that gives them half their sales. beyond that if half the people playing 40k are marine players odds have it the army your going to be lent to be introduced into the game is your buddies space marine army thus indoctrinating you into the marines.

TylerCade wrote:It seems to me, sorry if i step on any ones toes here, that space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

Not everyone plays boring ultrasmurf clones... some of us actually "muster the imagination" to create our own chapter complete with background, colour schemes and all kinds of other fluff.

From the GW perspective, marines mean that a whole new army can be produced just by producing a few new sets. This is great for GW (and it would be unfair to criticise them for this; their customer base as a whole clearly loves SMs).

So, the SWs, who have their own boxed plastics for troops and termies, have a ready-made set of vehicles, infiltrators and scouts, just by transferring heads and bitz from the main sets. Same for any non-vanilla marines unit. They just need to produce a few characters and unique identifiable units to let the army stand out.

Furthermore, the popularity of SMs means that non-vanilla codices are refreshing. At least there is some variation in the beakies you'll fight. So, when my SWs fight my mate's Crimson Fists, the armies are different enough to affect tactics.

And I'd agree that they're a good second army, and a great intro army. Marines don't do anything badly, making them tactically forgiving.

Finally, for a customer base brought up on computer gaming, heroic superhumans in enormous suits of armour with powerful guns are a recognisable motif.

AzurePhoenix wrote:

TylerCade wrote:It seems to me, sorry if i step on any ones toes here, that space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

Not everyone plays boring ultrasmurf clones... some of us actually "muster the imagination" to create our own chapter complete with background, colour schemes and all kinds of other fluff.

WHAT KIND OF A FOOL WOULD DO THIS? I mean look at all the cool special characters and all the nice, predone color sche-*looks at own signature*.

Yeah, custom armies really help mix it up, fluffwise. Having a marine player who doesn't read internet lists is good too (rhinos AREN'T necessary!)

Well The thing is there is alot of marine players. I agree with that. When i first joined there was only 5 or 6 of us. And there were tons of tau players, and eldar players.

AzurePhoenix wrote:

TylerCade wrote:It seems to me, sorry if i step on any ones toes here, that space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

Not everyone plays boring ultrasmurf clones... some of us actually "muster the imagination" to create our own chapter complete with background, colour schemes and all kinds of other fluff.

Meh, they all look the same to my eldar, and are equally crunchy to my demons.

TylerCade wrote:Short and simple: Is just my imagination or is there a space marines player for every other army type at any given game store.

no its not your imagination. there are too many marine players.

People are brought up on SM and are the race which seems more of a good race to the new folk. Strong and dependable but tight when buying a round in the pub.

The fact that is has diversed into Space Wolves, Dark Angels etc, etc ad infinitum et nauseum means that there will be disproportionately more SM players even if those SM players are playing anything other than vanilla SM's.

I try to support the spotty kid in the corner and I awlays cheer for the fat kid at sports day, so I play Necrons.

My local gaming store actually has less Marines than everyting else. There are 5 or 6 Marine players, 3 Necrons, 4 Tau, 5 IG, 4 CSM, 3 Chaos Demons, 2 Eldar, 3 Orks, 1 Dark Eldar, and 1 Witch Hunters. While I agree there are to many Marine players out there, and that GW needs to calm down with the Marines, I don't see a lot of it personally.

I have an idea: Plot Advancement. The Main rulebook states that the Golden Throne is failing, and that the Adeptus Mechanicus are helpless to repair it. How about they let the emperor die, and let Chaos or something else hog the spotlight for a while and get all over the posters and such. Then, when everyone is tired of CSM, back come the Space Marines. Just have the emperor reincarnated or something to that tune. Then Marines get the spotlight again, and the forces of the Imperium also have a brand new special character to play with in Apocalypse.

Also, Death to the false emperor. That is all.

Flaming_Spider wrote:
I have an idea: Plot Advancement. The Main rulebook states that the Golden Throne is failing, and that the Adeptus Mechanicus are helpless to repair it.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

You think GW will advance the storyline? I have a better chance of getting hit by a satellite and being eaten by a shark at the same time.

Anyway, SM will always be GW's big boys.

chowderhead13 wrote:

Flaming_Spider wrote:
I have an idea: Plot Advancement. The Main rulebook states that the Golden Throne is failing, and that the Adeptus Mechanicus are helpless to repair it.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

You think GW will advance the storyline? I have a better chance of getting hit by a satellite and being eaten by a shark at the same time.

Anyway, SM will always be GW's big boys.

They've advanced the storyline before, though not in such a large way. Just look at the Thirteenth Black Crusade and what happened to Cadia. It's not likely to happen, but it is likely. Although it's unlikely GW reads Dakka and takes everything on here into account.

The 13th Black Crusade where Abaddon once again feths up royal and everything returns to the status quo? The 13th Black Crusade that was part of the Eye of Terror campaign seven years ago? Cause from what you're saying it doesn't sound like we're talking about the same 13th Black Crusade.

On a recent Tourney we had 66 players participating. There was a 48% chance total to meet Space Marines all the way through the Tourney. Do the math.

avantgarde wrote:The 13th Black Crusade where Abaddon once again feths up royal and everything returns to the status quo? The 13th Black Crusade that was part of the Eye of Terror campaign seven years ago? Cause from what you're saying it doesn't sound like we're talking about the same 13th Black Crusade.

Yes, I probably have my timeline wrong. And Abaddon didn't feth up that bad, just got trapped on Cadia without orbital support. As of now, Chaos controls most of the planet, but they cannot be reinforced or resupplied, so it's only a matter of time before the Imperium takes it back.

It's not that bad. In the last tourney I played in at my local store the army breakdown was as follows:

2 Guard,
2 CSM,
1 Nid,
1 Ork,
1 DH,
1 WH,
2 eldar,
2 SM,
2 BA,
1 SW,
1 Tau.

31% marines if you don't include DH or CSM.

Yesterday at the store we had a new kid who wanted to talk to someone about starting a marine army. No one had brought a marine army to show him. We had two Nid vs Eldar battles taking place instead.

Yes there are a lot of marines, get over it, because of all of the revenue they generate they help GW make money, and who knows what the company would be like without their cash cow.

The reason I got into marines first was because 1) they are easy to learn the game with 2) heroic imagery 3) easy paint scheme for beginning painters 4) cheap.

I have now moved on to other armies and different games, but they are still fun to play with every once and a while. So what if people like heroes can you really blame them? Would I play this game if Dark Eldar were the poster boy? Heck no. Sure the game doesn't even need a main army, just look at Fantasy. It's just it helps when your're are a scared frail little man, who just opened his first starter set, to have the strong presence of a Space Marine in the grim darkness of the far future.

Yes I am the proud owner of 5000pts of Ultra Marines.

I game regularly at 2 different LGS's, and amongst the gamers at both locations, Marine players are actually the minority. Whether that be because of lack of interest in Marines or despising of Marines, there aren't that many Marine players, at least Vanilla Marine players anyway.

That being said, I am a proud owner of over 15,000 points of Ultramarines, have always enjoyed playing them, and will continue enjoy playing them for as long as I want.

There certainly are a lot of marine players out there, the manager of my local GW reckons he sells one SM box/blister for every non SM box/blister. Weirdly though on the games evenings there are very few marine armies, most of which are inevitably Blood Angels or Space Wolves. It seems that there are more Tau and IG players who turn up for games than anything else. Plus I know of at least 6 people who will be starting DE armies. So SM players are quite an oddity in my area. The upshot of this is that for a Tale of Four Gamers style event my local GW will be running shortly my choice of Black Templars will make me the person with the most original army next to the horde of DE that will be making an appearance.

Oh and I have no qualms about being a (Chaos) Space Marine player as I'm the sort of person who will eventually have one of everything. My first army was Dark Angels so for me not to have a marine army at any point would be a little odd. What disappoints me is the number of people who play BA or SW simply because they win a lot. I overheard a conversation between some kids who were debating about whether one of them should play Eldar or Space Wolves, and all they focussed on was which army would win the most games. It's no wonder there are so many WAAC players out there. Whatever happened to choosing an army based on play style or how much you like the models? It's always been how I've chosen which armies to play.

I don't mind Space Marines. What I do mind is people who power hop from new codex to new codex. Not even getting a new army, just counts-asing their Space Marines as whatever new codex is out, and maybe buying one or two of the specialist squads in it.

Pick a chapter, stick to it. I didn't counts-as my Salamanders as something else when GW decided to make them initiative 3 with no perks.

Yeah, well said there Nick. I agree with you completely. Except for playing CSM you Heretic scum! Just kidding!

It's very true, I started when I was a kid with Space Marines because...well, come on, who doesn't want to be a space marine!

That being said, when I started again after a huge fifteen year break, I went straight for IG and they are cool too, but I still bought some marines along the way because I still love the models and it makes sense to me.

Of course, once I had a good look at the Ork models and also the Tyrannids I was a little swayed, so now I reckon I'll do some of them too when I have the time and money. That will be mostly because I love the models rather than any sense of imaginary loyalty.

Of course I will never play Necrons!

I recall an old veteran's quote:

"There are two types of Marine Players; people who collect marines and marines only, and the rest of the playerbase."

I dunno at my FLGS there seems to be a wide range of armies. SM are probably the most numerous but not by much. Tyranids, Orks and CSM also seem to be very popular.

SM are the GW poster boys so I guess that's one of the reasons why there are more of these. Each box box set incarnation of the editions has had SM so it's a good foundation for new players to buiild up an army base on.

Maybe if they released 6ed with Necrons and Tau you might see an increase of there armies

-Loki- wrote:I don't mind Space Marines. What I do mind is people who power hop from new codex to new codex. Not even getting a new army, just counts-asing their Space Marines as whatever new codex is out, and maybe buying one or two of the specialist squads in it.

Pick a chapter, stick to it. I didn't counts-as my Salamanders as something else when GW decided to make them initiative 3 with no perks.

This so hard it hurts. I have nothing but contempt for no-skill codex hopping nublets that band wagon to the latest flavor of the month codex with their grey-marines. They can't play, can't paint, can't think. Only reason they exist is because it's easier for the GW money machine to pump out more crap to feed them than to make a quality product.

Here the main part of players are split pretty evenly between Marines and IG. There is a scattering of other races bar Necrons and Dark Eldar. I honestly don't know why anyone hasn't started these armies up. (no doubt with the new DE codex that will change)

>.> Out of the 'local' gamers I know, there's 2 3rd ED PDF BA players, 2 DE players, 1 ork, 1 Chaos, 1 guard...

Flaming_Spider wrote:

avantgarde wrote:The 13th Black Crusade where Abaddon once again feths up royal and everything returns to the status quo? The 13th Black Crusade that was part of the Eye of Terror campaign seven years ago? Cause from what you're saying it doesn't sound like we're talking about the same 13th Black Crusade.

Yes, I probably have my timeline wrong. And Abaddon didn't feth up that bad, just got trapped on Cadia without orbital support. As of now, Chaos controls most of the planet, but they cannot be reinforced or resupplied, so it's only a matter of time before the Imperium takes it back.

By matter of time, the time it takes to warm up the gunnery.

"We're Chaos Marines Hurr!"
Boom
"now you're dead."
Imperium wins! New galactic crusade. First up, lets take a breather and wipe out the Tau...

Honestly I wouldn´t have any problem with their hegemony if they weren´t so dull to play and to look at. Their core model range, while decent is probably the blandest of the whole 40k. And their tanks are undoubtely the ugliest.

That GW keep doing more and more characters for them whom looks basically the same in their Buzz Lightyear armor while other armies with way more interesting and wider aesthetical possibilities remain completely ostracized , irks me a bit too.

Wiglaf wrote:Honestly I wouldn´t have any problem with their hegemony if they weren´t so dull to play and to look at. Their core model range, while decent is probably the blandest of the whole 40k. And their tanks are undoubtely the ugliest.

I think the dull to play/look at thing depends entirely on how you approach the army. Kitbashing using various conversion packs/box sets from FW and GW allows a lot of personalisation amongst the army. For example the Marshal in my new Black Templar army which I mentioned in my previous post uses a combination of SM Commander and Black Templar parts to produce what I feel is a characterful model. Ok that's a fairly normal kitbash but it is still different to the norm which for a lot of SM armies does seem to involve copying what's on the box. As for dull to play they're only as dull as you make them, the various SM codecies allow for a huge variety in army type it's the players own fault if they come up with an army that's boring to play with. No one should feel constrained by what popular opinion calls the best tactics or best lists. Instead experiment with unpopular units, try unconventional tactics or build themed armies.

Having a lot of marine players doesn't bother me. With a number of marine codexes available and varying army builds they can play pretty differently. Having a lot of any faction wouldn't bother me, as long as there's some variety in the armies themselves. Lots of Ork players who all do battlewagon spam? Ho hum. Lots of Ork players who do battlewagon spam, horde, deffwing, speed freaks, kan bash, mix? Awesome.

In the Grim Darkness that is the future we need all the Space Marines we can get.

-Loki- wrote:I don't mind Space Marines. What I do mind is people who power hop from new codex to new codex. Not even getting a new army, just counts-asing their Space Marines as whatever new codex is out, and maybe buying one or two of the specialist squads in it.

Pick a chapter, stick to it. I didn't counts-as my Salamanders as something else when GW decided to make them initiative 3 with no perks.

This. A million times this. Every gaming group has the individual who hops from Codex to Codex, fielding the newest netlist, revlling in his lopsided wins, and never, ever applying paint to a model. Paint would make it objectionable to field an army as whatever the new hotness is!
I'm sooo looking forward to Dire Avengers played as counts-as Sybarite Warriors or whatever. Not.

-Loki- wrote:I don't mind Space Marines. What I do mind is people who power hop from new codex to new codex. Not even getting a new army, just counts-asing their Space Marines as whatever new codex is out, and maybe buying one or two of the specialist squads in it.

Pick a chapter, stick to it. I didn't counts-as my Salamanders as something else when GW decided to make them initiative 3 with no perks.

This is definately the biggest problem. While marines by themselves aren't the problem, I agree it is the "power hop" players that get out of control. The fact that most marines look a like makes this even harder to avoid.

TheRhino wrote:This. A million times this. Every gaming group has the individual who hops from Codex to Codex, fielding the newest netlist, revlling in his lopsided wins, and never, ever applying paint to a model. Paint would make it objectionable to field an army as whatever the new hotness is!

The only problem is that a person could paint his army whatever scheme he wants and claim it as a successor chapter. So this month he could be a space wolf codex, next month a blood angel and, the month after that a "normal" space marine codex army and there's nothing you can say about it.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

TheRhino wrote:This. A million times this. Every gaming group has the individual who hops from Codex to Codex, fielding the newest netlist, revlling in his lopsided wins, and never, ever applying paint to a model. Paint would make it objectionable to field an army as whatever the new hotness is!

The only problem is that a person could paint his army whatever scheme he wants and claim it as a successor chapter. So this month he could be a space wolf codex, next month a blood angel and, the month after that a "normal" space marine codex army and there's nothing you can say about it.

No, you can't really do anything about it, but it's definitely detrimental to the hobby side of, well, the hobby. I don't mind people who play to win, but that form of it is ridiculous.

One of my friends hopped between chapters. But at least he had the good grace to buy and paint a 1500pt list whenever he did, and never did the counts-asing.

TheRhino wrote:When I first started the game, and wanted to pick an army, I wanted something that looked solid, could take a beating and keep playing, and had rules that could mimic my time in the USMC. Someone recommended Guard, because they played more like real military units, and weren't 8-foot-tall supermen. I pointed out that clearly the person had never met a US Marine in real life

So true.

I was thinking about it and realised that I have enough Marine bits and pieces to make a small Chaos army (about 1000 - 1500 points) without buying any more models. They'd probably be more renegade like, not much in the way of horns and adornments, but after Grey Hunters basic Chaos Marines are one of the best troops in the game. If they had ATSKNF they'd be the best.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Maybe if they released 6ed with Necrons and Tau you might see an increase of there armies

There are several good reasons for this, many stated already.

I think the biggest are they are really cool looking overall, and they are easy to play. They are very well rounded, doing everything pretty well. There isnt much of a learning curve to them. Many other armies, Im looking at you in particularly Eldar, must be set up and used correctly or you get worked. That leaves them specially suited to experienced players.

The problem is, with a lot of new players getting Space Marines because they are easy to use, means they never become better at the game, tactically. They know what units to pick, but the lenient playstyle means there's never a huge risk to different tactics. I know, because I played Space marines for a long time.

When they move onto other armies, they may know the game, but they're going to get hammered game after game as they try to play them like Space Marines. Learning with a different army doesn't take much longer than learning with Space Marines when you initially start, but it certainly takes longer to learn a new army when you have Space marines lenient tactics stuck in your head.

Yeah, there are way too many Marine players. That's that happens when they have like 1/3 of the codexes .

Space Marines, are simply put, awesome.

It's no mystery why so many people play them. As for those who don't, well, there's no accounting for taste.

AzurePhoenix wrote:

TylerCade wrote:It seems to me, sorry if i step on any ones toes here, that space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

Not everyone plays boring ultrasmurf clones... some of us actually "muster the imagination" to create our own chapter complete with background, colour schemes and all kinds of other fluff.

That usually "just happen" to have guys that are just like Lysander, Calgar, Vulkan and/or Shrike.

Because busting out a "Sillysander" list and painting them black is the pinnacle of "imagination"

Athera wrote:

AzurePhoenix wrote:

TylerCade wrote:It seems to me, sorry if i step on any ones toes here, that space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

Not everyone plays boring ultrasmurf clones... some of us actually "muster the imagination" to create our own chapter complete with background, colour schemes and all kinds of other fluff.

That usually "just happen" to have guys that are just like Lysander, Calgar, Vulkan and/or Shrike.

Because busting out a "Sillysander" list and painting them black is the pinnacle of "imagination"

To be fair, it's the only way you can alter your armies abilities now. They shouldn't have gotten rid of traits. They were abusable, but better than needing to bring a character to make your army different. Creating your own chapter and using the rules for one of the special characters for it, if it fits your theme, isn't really a problem.

Space Marines have the largest allotment of plastic kit and are the proverbial cash cow. The money earned from the sales of SM provides the necessary capital at hand to develop other armies/races. It is what it is.

Well armoured guys with automatic rocket launchers do appeal to everyone, which sadly includes the younger population of 40k players...

Space marines are so popular for several reasons:

A. They are humans. Its logical that people can associate with them well (IG and DH/WH players don't get started with me)
B. They are super soldiers. I.E. Super heroes. So more or less they are Superman/Batman/take your pick. What kid doesn't want to control an army of their choice of superhero?
C. They are "the good guys". For crying out loud they are the freaking saviors of ALL mankind. Not just one planet. Not just some cat that was stuck in a tree. ALL OF MANKIND!!! Who wouldn't want to play as the savior of mankind?
D. They are the face of 40K. Basically everything 40K you see is either of a Space Marine shoving his size 47 boot up the A$$ of (insert alien race here), or its Space Marines defending helpless citizens on some god forsaken rock from (insert alien race here). And the second scenario usually leads to the A$$ beating eventually.

What other race can you say fits all of these qualities?

-Loki- wrote:

Athera wrote:

AzurePhoenix wrote:

TylerCade wrote:It seems to me, sorry if i step on any ones toes here, that space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

Not everyone plays boring ultrasmurf clones... some of us actually "muster the imagination" to create our own chapter complete with background, colour schemes and all kinds of other fluff.

That usually "just happen" to have guys that are just like Lysander, Calgar, Vulkan and/or Shrike.

Because busting out a "Sillysander" list and painting them black is the pinnacle of "imagination"

To be fair, it's the only way you can alter your armies abilities now. They shouldn't have gotten rid of traits. They were abusable, but better than needing to bring a character to make your army different. Creating your own chapter and using the rules for one of the special characters for it, if it fits your theme, isn't really a problem.

It is when 4 kids 13 year olds show up at your store with the same army aside from one having a green Sillysander, one with a blue Sillysander, one with a black Sillysander and the "rebel" using a red Calgar and a red Shrike. And they don't want to play each other because the other guys army is "cheese".

Two Manny?

P.S. Elitist much? You know, it is just possible that people you know, really really like their Space Marine army, and don't feel the need to personalise it as they prefer to do accruate heraldry, codex markings etc. And why so many Marine Codecies? Well, it's simple. You piss and moan right now about all Marines being the same, so if we take away the diversity of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars and Dark Angels, then it will all be just one book, and the army will be even more alike, which means you will piss and moan all the harder, then complain bitterly when a new book for a new Chapter comes out because it's not for your personal favourite army, and as everyone knows, GW is actually run purely on behalf of those who don't play Marines.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: the diversity of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars and Dark Angels

Hahaha, 'diversity', hahaha, 'Space Marines', hahaha, oh man that's good. Mind if I steal that line some day when everyone's getting too serious?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:the diversity of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars and Dark Angels

Sparkly Space Vampire Assault Marines. Furry Assault Marines. Catholic Assault Marines. The guys in dresses.

I didn't know that "diversity" meant "one of these is not like the others".

TylerCade wrote:space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

So you require more imagination to play another army besides Space Marines? How did you figure that out? Playing Orks, Necrons etc. requires more imagination?

"I'm sorry John, I've tried so hard to imagine aliens with green skin screaming waagh all the time and I just can't manage it. I think I'm going to have to go back to playing eight foot tall super humans in inch thick body armour."

WarWizard91 wrote:Yes there are a lot of marines, get over it, because of all of the revenue they generate they help GW make money, and who knows what the company would be like without their cash cow.

Competent?

PraetorDave wrote:Space marines are so popular for several reasons:

A. They are humans. Its logical that people can associate with them well (IG and DH/WH players don't get started with me)
B. They are super soldiers. I.E. Super heroes. So more or less they are Superman/Batman/take your pick. What kid doesn't want to control an army of their choice of superhero?
C. They are "the good guys". For crying out loud they are the freaking saviors of ALL mankind. Not just one planet. Not just some cat that was stuck in a tree. ALL OF MANKIND!!! Who wouldn't want to play as the savior of mankind?
D. They are the face of 40K. Basically everything 40K you see is either of a Space Marine shoving his size 47 boot up the A$$ of (insert alien race here), or its Space Marines defending helpless citizens on some god forsaken rock from (insert alien race here). And the second scenario usually leads to the A$$ beating eventually.

What other race can you say fits all of these qualities?

That pretty well sums it up. The main rule book is even written form the "imperium is the good guys" prospective. So naturally it steers people into the good vs bad scenario...and the us (humans) vs everyone else. Funny part is that only a couple races are truly "bad" guys...chaos, DE and necrons. Eldar are pretty much neutral, one could say the same about the Tyranids, they are pretty much just animals doing what animals do. Tau could even be considered good guys from a prospective. In reality the Imperium is only about as "good" as most empires during the dark ages and medieval times.

Melissia wrote:

WarWizard91 wrote:Yes there are a lot of marines, get over it, because of all of the revenue they generate they help GW make money, and who knows what the company would be like without their cash cow.

Competent?

lol'd

Diversity? Who cares. Win at all costs? Who cares. Feeling unique like non marine player, while, like a complete smartass, commenting marine players? Winner! Congratulations!

It is a hobby, game - killer of time. And why are you wasting your time with a hobby? Because it gives you something that you want? Yes? Hell yeah!

You wanna win? You get wins? Mission acomplished!

You sympathize with your guys and like your fluff? You get it? Mission acomplished!

You like looks of your army? You do it? Mission acomplished!

You do something, somehow, so you could whine about it all the time? Whine it? Mission acomplished!

And soooooo on...

Wanna get it in da hornymath style? Imagine space marines like an aggregate which represents certain amount of approaches - from which anyone can choose anything to stick with, what will make him happy. Every other army represents its own set of this bull*hit. So what does this actually mean? That our mathematical composition found a winner! Space marine represents da biggest set of bull*hit to choose from! So dudes and dudies - so surprised we found our winner?

I would also like to point out that spess dudes represents not only superhero scheme - but also gives fanatical, knightly, determined, angelic or mythic flavour to the mankind(and many, many more). They face enemies without fear. They will rather die, than surrender. Mankind is united in its possibly final form of social establishment- and they protect it. They are determined in their task. They pretty much represent every aspect where we suck - this bull*hit itself can actually impress someone. They are not just bunch of uber benchpress dudes. Where our determination and will fails in real life, they succeed.

My three cents summarized: They offer many, many, MANY ways to sympathize with them -and for some of them you can actually use your imagination.

It is the way of the alien and the heretic to babble about fall of the empire. Whilst it makes its vigil, possibly last, stand in the grim future of the universe...

Nice to find 40k fluff on the internet forums...Good times .

WarWizard91 wrote:Yes there are a lot of marines, get over it, because of all of the revenue they generate they help GW make money, and who knows what the company would be like without their cash cow.

The reason I got into marines first was because 1) they are easy to learn the game with 2) heroic imagery 3) easy paint scheme for beginning painters 4) cheap.

I have now moved on to other armies and different games, but they are still fun to play with every once and a while. So what if people like heroes can you really blame them? Would I play this game if Dark Eldar were the poster boy? Heck no. Sure the game doesn't even need a main army, just look at Fantasy. It's just it helps when your're are a scared frail little man, who just opened his first starter set, to have the strong presence of a Space Marine in the grim darkness of the far future.

Yes I am the proud owner of 5000pts of Ultra Marines.

+1. I agree with you 100%. A space marine on the cover of something just makes it look more awe inspiring. And I too have aprox 5000 of Ultramarines.

Wiglaf wrote:Honestly I wouldn´t have any problem with their hegemony if they weren´t so dull to play and to look at. Their core model range, while decent is probably the blandest of the whole 40k. And their tanks are undoubtely the ugliest.

That GW keep doing more and more characters for them whom looks basically the same in their Buzz Lightyear armor while other armies with way more interesting and wider aesthetical possibilities remain completely ostracized , irks me a bit too.

The conformity of style and rigid militaristic aesthetic of marines is what defines them.

I rather think all the fancy "blinged" out marines have been made to appease people like yourself unfortunately...

A nicely painted classic marine army is a gorgeous thing and has it's place in the setting. In fact the conformity of the marines (at least pre-bling era) was what allowed the other wilder looking armies to have such impact.

Melissia wrote:

WarWizard91 wrote:Yes there are a lot of marines, get over it, because of all of the revenue they generate they help GW make money, and who knows what the company would be like without their cash cow.

Competent?

While I agree with Ordo Dakka that your comment is funny, I think that the company would be a lot smaller with less of those "cool" races/armies we all love. We all hear about how massive a sells percentage that Marines rake in, do you think that money goes only to more marines? Most likely not. The money that marines make probably helps it so that no armies have to be squated.

Sure the opposite could be true as well. That with out all the marines there could be other different cool stuff to take their place, and this would be even cooler more diverse stuff. But this other way might not be as successful as the "all marines all the time way" that we have now, and I don't see it as a risk GW was willing to take.

Given how successful monetarily their Marines program has been I would say it was a very competent move on their part. I don't think it is good for the game as a whole though, diversity adds to the joy of the game after all.

Yes, I hear about the SUPPOSED and RUMORED massive sales of Marines.

Never seen any proof.

While I don't deny they sell the most, I take the "50% of all GW profits" malarkey with a truckload of salt.

CT GAMER wrote:A nicely painted classic marine army is a gorgeous thing and has it's place in the setting. In fact the conformity of the marines (at least pre-bling era) was what allowed the other wilder looking armies to have such impact.

This is true. Space Marines are the focus of the game, and a nicely painted Space marine army is absolutely wondrous. Even moreso if the person had some creativity and did something different, especially now with all the different marks of armour being sold by Forgeworld. The downside to this is, because they are the newcomer army that is easy to play and easier to paint than other armies, is that it is rare to see a well painted Space Marine army.

I was lucky that my opponent for many years was a fantastic painter. He had 2 Space marine armies, Imperial Fists and Black Templars, and a Chaos legion, Night Lords. All 3 looked stunning. Subtle highlighting on the Black Templars, deep, orangey yellow (that had an awesome, cracked, baked on effect) on his Imperial Fists, well done lightning and conversions on the Night Lords. Even though I hated playing my Salamanders against, yet again, Space Marines, seeing those armies staring across the table at my mediocre Salamanders was awesome. Pity he stopped playing.

Now when I walk into GW and see a bunch of 14 year olds sitting at the painting table, painting their first Space Marine, I cringe.

I'm with Loki and CT GAMER. A well painted marine army (be they Ultramarines or something else) with proper squad markings etc. is a beautiful thing. These types of armies seem to be getting more rare as time goes on, which is a shame, but they really are striking on the table top. This "space marine players are n00bs with no imagination!!!" thread seems to come up all the time and I still don't understand why. I cannot be the only person who sees at least one beautiful space marine army just about everywhere they go. Similarly, I have seen tons and tons of poorly painted Guard, Ork, Necron, and especially Eldar armies (to be fair, the well painted Eldar armies I have seen are truly spectacular). I will leave it at that as the main reasons for the glut of space marine armies have been laid out several times in this thread already and there is no need to repeat them.

@ Melissia
I also am not convinced by the "Space Marines are 50% of GW's sales" argument but I would be willing to bet that they are at least 20% of overall 40K sales. That is still a huge amount of GW's overall profit. I suppose it could be argued that the high sales come from the massive exposure that space marines have but then it turns into a chicken vs. egg argument which isn't going anywhere. I think it is factually accurate to say that space marines account for a much larger chunk of GW's overall sales when compared to any other model range.

I think the more pertinent question is why so many people don't play Space Marines.

Monster Rain wrote:I think the more pertinent question is why so many people don't play Space Marines.

1. Because they're fat.
2. Because they have "space" in their name.
3. Because their shoulders hurt.
4. Because they look like lego bricks and could confuse a small child into swallowing them.
5. Because they're ugly.
6. Because they have really big hands.
7. Because they're loud.
8. Because they never have fun.
9. Because they're a public menace; you wouldn't believe how many times a poor Imperial citizen's house was leveled by a deep strike.
10. Because they're Space Marines.

Necroman wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I think the more pertinent question is why so many people don't play Space Marines.

1. Because they're fat.
2. Because they have "space" in their name.
3. Because their shoulders hurt.
4. Because they look like lego bricks and could confuse a small child into swallowing them.
5. Because they're ugly.
6. Because they have really big hands.
7. Because they're loud.
8. Because they never have fun.
9. Because they're a public menace; you wouldn't believe how many times a poor Imperial citizen's house was leveled by a deep strike.
10. Because they're Space Marines.

All interesting answers.

I actually attribute it to Middle-Child Syndrom.

TylerCade wrote:

It seems to me, sorry if i step on any ones toes here, that space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

because it takes so much more imagination to put together and paint non-marine armies....... I mean really are you serious?

brettz123 wrote:

TylerCade wrote:

It seems to me, sorry if i step on any ones toes here, that space marines are the army you go to when you cant muster the imagination to personify another one.

because it takes so much more imagination to put together and paint non-marine armies....... I mean really are you serious?

I attribute the lameness of Space Marines to the absolute failure of the Dawn of War video game series.

Monster Rain wrote:I attribute the lameness of Space Marines to the absolute failure of the Dawn of War video game series.

I attribute it to marketing.

"Like, there's this cool army that's formed out these guys who are totally awesome! Like, they have these huge muscles and they're superstrong and superfast and they're really better than everybody else! They're so much better that they can kill a tank by punching it! And they have chainsaw swords! And, like, they're really nice and are good guys, but they're REALLY VIOLENT on the battlefield AND OH MY GOD HE PUNCHED OUT AN ORK'S ESOPHAGUS THATS SO COOL! You so NEED at least fifty dozen squads of these, and then a really pimped out commander with all this bling who's, like, even stronger than the other guys! And he's screaming all the time like he's constipated, only he's not, and that's cool! And they even come in different colors, like blue, and blue, and blue, and red, and blue, and... They even have bikes!

BUY THEM NOW! *May require additional paint/assembling*"

Funny, the Dawn of War games-- specifically, Dawn of War 2's original campaign and expansion campaign-- are just about the only reasons I actually might like Marines. Thaddeus is great.

Indeed. Dawn of War 2's campaign showed a small band of Space Marines achieving the impossible, but also not screaming 'Space Marines, feth yeah!'. The intro did, but Relic didn't have anything to do with the intro. Like DoW 1's intro, they outsourced it.

The Space marines in the campaign just went on and did their job, and talked about things. It actually made them seem human. I attribute the awful Space Marine attitude to the recent codex's. They're far more over the top than Relic ever made them.

-Loki wrote:Now when I walk into GW and see a bunch of 14 year olds sitting at the painting table, painting their first Space Marine, I cringe.

Why? Presumably your friend with the awesome armies was once one of those 14 year olds.

I've winced in the past at some of the horrendous things youngsters do with paint (a speed painting contest at one of the UK GamesDays still haunts me) but I'd honestly rather take the time to play them than some 24 year old with 1500 points of grey plastic.

Besides, then I might actually win...

BloodQuest wrote:

-Loki wrote:Now when I walk into GW and see a bunch of 14 year olds sitting at the painting table, painting their first Space Marine, I cringe.

Why? Presumably your friend with the awesome armies was once one of those 14 year olds.

I've winced in the past at some of the horrendous things youngsters do with paint (a speed painting contest at one of the UK GamesDays still haunts me) but I'd honestly rather take the time to play them than some 24 year old with 1500 points of grey plastic.

Besides, then I might actually win...

The problem is, it's all I'm seeing now when it comes to Space marines, unless I go looking on the net for people showcasing their stuff. Also, to be slightly fairer, he was always a good painter.

I know what you mean but you really never know.

I met a guy in one of the local GW stores who was EVEN OLDER than me - must've been in his 50's.

He'd got into the hobby as therapy after suffering a stroke. His models were astonishing, really fantastic. Then he showed me some he'd done just 6 months earlier. Looked like they'd been painted by an utter -----.

My point is that everyone's a beginner at some point, whether it's 14 or 40.

Best we can do is give them some encouragement, try and knock off any rough edges and see how it turns out.

I still play BA, but I think it's true that the better players will tend toward something more esoteric.

Good, bad or ugly seeing a painted SPESH MUHREEN army is a rare site to begin with.

Nobody wants to paint them because A) it means working on the hobby instead of just downloading a web list, using some super glue and playing to win B) it makes things more difficult when the time comes to jump to the newest flavor of the month codex.

I grant that there are people who actually do play the armies seriously but I have no fear painting the entire crowd with the same brush because of weight of numbers. The vast, vast majority of people get into space marines because it appeals to them as the noob army, cheap to buy, easy-mode to play, constantly updated to be the strongest codex (whichever one they use this month) with little to no personal investment in the hobby.

I firmly believe that Imperial Guard have way more capability due their fluff and personality to be the proper focus of a world dominated by a human empire. And you can sympathize with them easily because like every other army they have their flaws and weakness, and are able to have actual human feelings. Marines should be relegated to a secondary role as fluff wise they aren´t representative of what means to be a real imperial citizen and soldier. That would be a huge step up in the evolving process of present 40k world in a more mature way.

Marines already have a solid fan base of serious players and huge masses of young groupies whom still wet their beds so I don´t see why more exacerbated and uninterrupted commercial support is needed here.

I was dragged to Space Marines as a kid... and I resented myself as I got older for having done so, but after I changed them to DAs and stripped my crappy old paintjobs I actually got a lot of pride in my work.

Space Marines have the coolest fluff, aesthetics and general imagery in my mind... They're frankly awesome and although I might not choose them today and go for an underdog instead, I fail to see why I should throw my army away for diversity I have every right to collect an SM army as the next man!

I would have to say the reason i was drawn to amrines first was i liked the concept, as I grew to leanr more about them i began to see what thhey lacked but how they made up for it through tactics and versatility. Though i see alot of people play the specalty marines far more than plain jane vanilla. But i see alot of people that play them for the power lists and not because they like the army for what it is.

but as far as casual goes, if you know whata rmy your going to be facing, even without knowledge of what units will be showing up you an gear up a amrinnes army to beat it with proper tactics and planning. marines are desinged to do jsut that, be so versitlie with a good geneeral you almsot can't beat them. Which makes peole whine and complain that their out of left field army didn beat a solid block of marines.

I've played jsut about every army except nids, orks and dark eldar. and i have to say that through all of them i have always kept my marines. they alwasy fit and playing thhem was like riding a bike. i never forgot how. In closing jsut play and have fun. if yoour not having fun its probaly time to find a new hobby.

SumYungGui wrote:Good, bad or ugly seeing a painted SPESH MUHREEN army is a rare site to begin with. .

Now this is no joke...... maybe space marines always wage war in a very light grey environment and all those unpainted armies are just very cleverly camoed up

You're absolutely right...at the last tournie I went to, there was over 50% marines...but I like that. I picked Daemons, and I don't really want to see the majority of people play what I play. You need to build a special army to deal with Daemons or Orks or Necs or Eldar, and if most armies are built with battling marines in mind, it makes it that much easier for the non-marines to win. And every tournie I've seen usually has non-marines eating marines. So let the focus on marines continue!

Welcome to Dakka.

Unfortunately, the staple diet of 40k is Spesh Merehnz, enjoy it.

The whole Dawn of Awesome stupid space marine spelling is getting really irritating...

I know this is horribly hypocritical of me, but I'm starting to get sick of the Space Marine hate. All the cool kids hate Orkz now.

I thought they hated Tau.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I know this is horribly hypocritical of me, but I'm starting to get sick of the Space Marine hate. All the cool kids hate Orkz now.

<rant>I hated Orks before it was cool. I never liked the way they look, or their play style. I never saw how they were supposed to be "comedic relief", because I never thought they were funny. Orks are easily my least favorite army in 40k. And while I still harbor a dislike of Space Marines, I would rather see lots of them than more Orks.</rant>

Sorry If I stepped on some toes there, I did not mean to offend. I have no problem with Ork players. If that army makes them happy, then they should by all means go for it. Play the army you like, even if other people hate it. (That goes for SM too!) All I was saying was that I don't like the army itself, and just because I don't enjoy them, doesn't mean other's shouldn't.

I play space wolves and yes i too think there are to many other marines and a lot are owned by by
10 year olds who are there just to try and win using an all out charge strategy wich gets very annoying
also there is some thing like 7 tau players who regularly get stomped (more 10 year olds)

Flaming_Spider wrote:I never saw how they were supposed to be "comedic relief"

Personally, I don't think of them this way. I thing of them as the brutal barbaric hordes that they are. They are the Mongols, the Vikings, the Timurids, and a bit of the villains from Mad Max all rolled into one brutal, unstoppable horde which will never stop coming no matter how many times you kill them. And then, just to be mean, they're more durable than a Marine, and just as skilled in close combat, all without any training or experience-- yeah, a common Ork boy can match an Astartes in swordplay, parrying, thrusting, and chopping with the best of them.

They're the ideal enemies of the grimdarkness of 40k. Their "humor" is a leftover from second edition that I'm glad is fading away

Melissia wrote:I thought they hated Tau.

Don't make me cry. it's doesn't take alot to do so. Tau feelings are very easliy hurt

-Loki- wrote:The whole Dawn of Awesome stupid space marine spelling is getting really irritating...

Apparently not for everyone... its been regularly posted across boards everytime something related (or unrelated) arises...

That's why it's getting irritating. It also sounds really childish, but whatever floats your boat.

Melissia wrote:They're the ideal enemies of the grimdarkness of 40k. Their "humor" is a leftover from second edition that I'm glad is fading away

They are not the ideal enemies. They are annoying, in my opinion. True dark adversaries are things like Tyranids, Chaos, and Necrons. Evil things beyond comprehension, not a bunch of green skinned monsters who are incapable of speaking properly. Something about them just doesn't sit right with me.

Melissia wrote:They're the ideal enemies of the grimdarkness of 40k. Their "humor" is a leftover from second edition that I'm glad is fading away

Their humor must be fading in reverse then. They were comic relief in 2nd, it was all but removed in 3rd, and gradually reintroduced.

-Loki- wrote:

Melissia wrote:They're the ideal enemies of the grimdarkness of 40k. Their "humor" is a leftover from second edition that I'm glad is fading away

Their humor must be fading in reverse then. They were comic relief in 2nd, it was all but removed in 3rd, and gradually reintroduced.

Yes, folks... Loki is the 'Humour Police'... please do not disagree with him or your 40k days are numbered.

They are the easiest to paint, the most simplistic as far as stats go, and they arent too hard to understand. We humans, we good! They xeno, they bad! Plus, the army can really go in any direction.

What I really don't get is why whenever these threads spring up someone claims Space Marine are "fat".

I don't know what body fat % you're rocking but feth me it must be impressive.

Or unhealthy (yes, having too little body fat is not healthy for a human).

SMs, the heroic, snot-nosed kids of the 41st millennium!



I like marines, but they are kinda' spammed.
I hate tau, they are spammed, the players just pwn everybody, there' overpowered and annoying.

to tau, once I let Squigspittle an is' flame cutter totin' burnas out da bag!

PYROMANIA!!!!!!!!!!

I guess fat here stands for ungraceful, unnecessarily rounded and wide, and clumsy looking. Which they are.

Blizzard ripped that concept of guy in mega armor and improved it with their terrans, while the originals stayed almost the same since the very beginning. Marines still look too 80´s and quite uncapable to do most of what they are supposed to do (like walk without bowing their legs to start with).

Bring on the Squats...

As for the manny Spaz Mureenze..

They are the heros and all that. You either take them or you get the faries wearing bootz. I Reminds me of that P!@#y speech from Cheech moran in Dusk till Dawn, except that you need to put marine in there...

All this Ork talk is getting me hot and bothered, so bring on the whipping faries wearing bootz AND gimp masks!!! Wait a few, you can get on the FOTM band wagon with whatever comes out with next, and marines will be getting ready for a "New and Improved" release of the same old... Space Marine.

If you find a cheaper marine somewhere else... Marine it!

I love space marines. I really do. I love the sound their Rhinos make as they explode from a autocannon made more accurate by a Company Commander screaming at the firer. I love the plead of the space marine player to let us count the area where the rhino was previously placed as area terrain even though we don't have any craters. I love the smell of blood and ichor released as their power armor crumples from a well placed earthshaker round.

If there is only complaint I have about Space Marines, it's almost that they're too easy to beat.

Space Marines are cool. So are Orks. Tau. Necrons etc. Doesn't matter and if you're tired of seeing people fielding one specific army you need to get out more.

Have a break from gaming.

There are more important things to get all heated up over other than what someone else likes to play. In a game.

I field what I like, when I like. So does my opponent. If you don't like it you have a problem which is starting to manifest itself into an irrational distraction. Go and get help.

I've warhammer for 2 years and have only fought something that wasn't space marines once. It's getting real old.

I was a SM player once (Iron Hands). Then i saw the extreme overuse of UM, BA, DA, and BT. Thats why now im concentrating on Tau and IG

Elmodiddly wrote:Space Marines are cool. So are Orks. Tau. Necrons etc. Doesn't matter and if you're tired of seeing people fielding one specific army you need to get out more.

Have a break from gaming.

There are more important things to get all heated up over other than what someone else likes to play. In a game.

I field what I like, when I like. So does my opponent. If you don't like it you have a problem which is starting to manifest itself into an irrational distraction. Go and get help.

Yes, field what you like, but this complaint is still valid:

Mr Nobody wrote:I've warhammer for 2 years and have only fought something that wasn't space marines once. It's getting real old.

If the game gets boring and monotonous because there's only Marines, it discourages people from playing and purchasing new models. Not that GW cares, they're more interested in getting caucasian male teenagers to purchase more Marines.

Melissia wrote:
If the game gets boring and monotonous because there's only Marines, it discourages people from playing and purchasing new models. Not that GW cares, they're more interested in getting caucasian male teenagers to purchase more Marines.

Must be local.

Our GW stores reduced 40k shelf space to put more fantasy in.
Never had any attempt to sell me marines, but xenos scum.....

I honestly have only played marines at a 40k in 40 minutes tourney.

At our club Tau and IG are being overused. Its why I'm putting the IG away and switching to BT.