Come on. Mat Ward gave you The Sanguinor, Death Company as TROOPS, the Furioso Librarian, Astorath the Grim, Flying Terminators-sorry, Sanguinary Guard, the Flamestorm cannon on the Baal Predator, the Descent of Angels rule......What's not to like?

Er it went from Codex Creep to Codex Sprint?

By which you mean what?

The same reasons you stated. Plus the Valkyrie,er stormbird yea thats it which can also drop dreadnoughts, plus dropping landraiders. Death company and librarian dreads.
Deepstriking landraider? Really? Really?

Power Abs and Twilight prettyvampires were given FNP bubbles, accurate deepstriking, meltaproof skimmers that transport not one, but two units, deepstriking landraiders, cascading hit dreadnoughts, able to dish out an unlimited number of wounds a turn, psyker dreadnoughts, and harpoons to pull vehicles closer. That's at least 8 things that haven't been possible in 40k before.

There's nothing bad about the codex (excpet possibly the models if pretty men aren't your thing) but all of the unprecedented new directions are absurd. I remember when people freaked out because the Orks had d3 autocannon shots on their lootas, and codexes limited themselves to 3 or 4 new units and innovations.

Squigsquasher wrote:Mat Ward gave you The Sanguinor

There you go. You just answered your own question.

Oh, and don't forget that you can now have a Psychic Dreadnought jump out of a plane using a Psychic Jump Pack whilst firing a Grappling Hook.

Also Bloodshard Rounds, Bloodfists, Blood Talons and Bloodstrike Missiles. x2

Oh yea... and they are super tight with Necrons... 3 steps from being 'bros'.

Then there's the Mary Sue Sanguinator of awesome-sauce-I-Pick-Up-Greater-Daemons-and-drop-them.

So yea, even the Fluff is pretty crazy on top of the rules.

Oh yea... you still have the reliable options found in the SMurf codex.

Frazzled wrote:Deepstriking landraider? Really? Really?

Really. Sounds cool, pretty worthless in practice.

And yet its still an option, at no cost.

Where are the drawbacks to BA vs. generic marines?
Why do they suddenly have a Valkyrie standin but with new and improved abilities?

They don't have Thunderfire Cannons and their Drop Pods hold two less people?

n0t_u wrote:They don't have Thunderfire Cannons and their Drop Pods hold two less people?

Yea, thats a brutal drawback there. BA players are practically wheelchair bound on the battlefield. Somehow they'll hav eto get by with their FAST predators...

My thoughts when I first read the Blood Angels stupid fluff, overpowered and ridiculous rules:





After reading this insane Codex I bought the White Dwarf to see what Mat Ward was actually thinking when he wrote it.
After reading the Designer's Notes I found that most of it was something my 4 year old brother would fantasize about when he's playing with his Iron Man action figures.

''Look Ediin my Iron Man is flying towards the bad guy but suddenly this jeep drops out of the sky and kills everyone of the bad guys! And look, look,
this black action figure is insane and tears the evil men to shreds!!!11!! Wow now a huge red airplane swoops in and boombaammmbonbaoldrrement,
And out of the red plane jumps Iron Man's super best friend and he has super powers and stuff but he's half dead and is in a machine!!!!!
However now the bad guys are killing some of Iron Man's friends and now Iron Man is calling the Golden action figure who is actually his daddy!!
Golden Daddy swoopps in and Baamboomcrashbang!! bad guy dead.''

And their WS6 Dreads.

And yeah, I forgot about the Deep Striking Land Raiders.

Really. Deep Striking Land Raiders. x100


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Ediin wrote:After reading the Designer's Notes I found that most of it was something my 4 year old brother would fantisize about when he's playing with his Iron Man action figures.

I'm curious - what did he actually say?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm curious - what did he actually say?

*My previous post*

It's threads like this one that remind me why GW make me sad...it just really feels like the integrity of the game is simply not a priority for them. Grey Wolves 18 months ago were basically what Dark Angels are now, a year and a new codex later, half the online community has sigs proclaiming how they are and always have been "wolves for life". I know, I know...fickle community is fickle. Nothing to see here...

Yeah, k, but seriously - what did he actually say.

I doubt he said what you wrote above... or... I hope he didn't say what he wrote above, otherwise I'm worried...

Nothing is bad about it. It's just part of the new paradigm where absurd is the standard. It started with the last Chaos Space Marines and hasn't stopped.

When everything is crazy awesome, nothing really is.

People just can't get over that, but for every Blood Talon, there's a Doom of Malanti, or a Vendetta, or an Implosion Missile, etc.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah, k, but seriously - what did he actually say.

I doubt he said what you wrote above... or... I hope he didn't say what he wrote above, otherwise I'm worried...

My brother talks like that when he plays with action figures. That was just me inserting Blood Angels-related stuff.

You should just be happy that BA didn't get bat cavalry. No matter how bad the BA 'dex is in terms of fluff and cheese, at least they're not Space Wolves, amirite?

Well they do have Bat bikers.

Ediin wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah, k, but seriously - what did he actually say.

I doubt he said what you wrote above... or... I hope he didn't say what he wrote above, otherwise I'm worried...

My brother talks like that when he plays with action figures. That was just me inserting Blood Angels-related stuff.

No HBMC is asking what the guy that wrote the codex said. At leas thats how Im taking it.

The reason for all the BA hate is because they are not a tough army to beat because they are good. They are a tough army to beat because the guy that wrote it went ARE YOU FECKING SERIOUS?!?! over the top. They drop LRs from the sky for christ sakes.....speaking of christ, they have him in the army.....but hes been Space MArined and wanted golden armor, to show off how incredibly badass he is. GOLDEN ARMOR!

Thats why people hate the BA, except those guys that just have to win all the time and laugh about it

Squigsquasher wrote:What's not to like?

The blood words are pretty blood bad, but the blood rules that they blood make up are just blood silly.

KingCracker wrote:

Ediin wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah, k, but seriously - what did he actually say.

I doubt he said what you wrote above... or... I hope he didn't say what he wrote above, otherwise I'm worried...

My brother talks like that when he plays with action figures. That was just me inserting Blood Angels-related stuff.

No HBMC is asking what the guy that wrote the codex said. At leas thats how Im taking it.

The reason for all the BA hate is because they are not a tough army to beat because they are good. They are a tough army to beat because the guy that wrote it went ARE YOU FECKING SERIOUS?!?! over the top. They drop LRs from the sky for christ sakes.....speaking of christ, they have him in the army.....but hes been Space MArined and wanted golden armor, to show off how incredibly badass he is. GOLDEN ARMOR!

Thats why people hate the BA, except those guys that just have to win all the time and laugh about it

Everyone points to the deep-striking Landraider without considering how monumentally stupid it is to actually deep-strike a Landraider. Are there people actually doing this to you guys or something?

I still think the Space Wolf 'dex is way more over the top, but YMMV.

Seaward wrote:Everyone points to the deep-striking Landraider without considering how monumentally stupid it is to actually deep-strike a Landraider.

Actually I think most people point it out exactly because it is stupid. In theory AND in practice.

KingCracker wrote:No HBMC is asking what the guy that wrote the codex said. At leas thats how Im taking it.

Mat Ward wrote:It made sense to me that if the Chapter's troops were grappling up close with the enemy from early on
then they would develop a method for their armoured support to perform a similar role. So the Blood Angels use Thunderhawk
Transporters to drop their Land Raiders directly into the heat of battle, trusting the tank's sturdy nature to allow for a safe landing for it, and
any passengers and crew.

Taken from page 19 of White Dwarf 364.

And of course, IMO, it's ridiculous. If it's so obvious, why didn't other chapters think of it? It's just stupid. Sorry Mat.

kirsanth wrote:

Seaward wrote:Everyone points to the deep-striking Landraider without considering how monumentally stupid it is to actually deep-strike a Landraider.

Actually I think most people point it out exactly because it is stupid. In theory AND in practice.

I thought the theory was just that it gets dropped from a Thunderhawk Transporter? I mean, sure, it may require temporarily suspending the laws of physics for the guys inside to survive, but...

Alright, it's stupid.


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Ediin wrote:

KingCracker wrote:No HBMC is asking what the guy that wrote the codex said. At leas thats how Im taking it.

Mat Ward wrote:It made sense to me that if the Chapter's troops were grappling up close with the enemy from early on
then they would develop a method for their armoured support to perform a similar role. So the Blood Angels use Thunderhawk
Transporters to drop their Land Raiders directly into the heat of battle, trusting the tank's sturdy nature to allow for a safe landing for it, and
any passengers and crew.

Taken from page 19 of White Dwarf 364.

And of course, IMO, it's ridiculous. If it's so obvious, why didn't other chapters think of it? It's just stupid. Sorry Mat.

Yes, it's stupid. It's like relying on the sturdiness of an elevator to allow for a safe landing in free fall down an elevator shaft. The elevator may well survive intact. Not so much the people inside.

http://pixdaus.com/pics/1221406308civInTb.jpg
If it works in real life . . .

Edit: Url tags aren't working for that website, just copy and paste into browser

Irdiumstern wrote:http://pixdaus.com/pics/1221406308civInTb.jpg
If it works in real life . . .

Edit: Url tags aren't working for that website, just copy and paste into browser

No one's in that tank and it's got itself quite a few parachutes.

Seaward wrote:No one's in that tank and it's got itself quite a few parachutes.

+1

PLus they don't drop tanks onto the front lines because the enemy has a tendency to shoot at the aircraft.

If you get to drop LR's I should get the option of shooting down the aircraft or hitting the underside of the LR. If you're going to play landers you have to play all the lander rules.

Squigsquasher wrote:Come on. Mat Ward gave you The Sanguinor, Death Company as TROOPS, the Furioso Librarian, Astorath the Grim, Flying Terminators-sorry, Sanguinary Guard, the Flamestorm cannon on the Baal Predator, the Descent of Angels rule......What's not to like?

The new Dark Eldar codex isn't out for people to complain about yet.

Chongara wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Come on. Mat Ward gave you The Sanguinor, Death Company as TROOPS, the Furioso Librarian, Astorath the Grim, Flying Terminators-sorry, Sanguinary Guard, the Flamestorm cannon on the Baal Predator, the Descent of Angels rule......What's not to like?

The new Dark Eldar codex isn't out for people to complain about yet.

Exactly. But they will. I suspect we'll see the shockingly original naming pattern started with Space Wolves carried over into Dark Eldar - instead of putting "Wolf" or "Blood" in front of something, they'll just put "Dark" - and there will probably be some eye-rollingly bad ideas to rival deep striking Land Raiders in there as well.

Seaward wrote:Exactly. But they will. I suspect we'll see the shockingly original naming pattern started with Space Wolves carried over into Dark Eldar - instead of putting "Wolf" or "Blood" in front of something, they'll just put "Dark" - and there will probably be some eye-rollingly bad ideas to rival deep striking Land Raiders in there as well.

Isn't that the Dark Angels' thing? You know, all marine codexes except vanilla need a word that ''belongs'' to them. In this case Dark Angels, right?

Or do I have to wait for the next Dark Angels codex to see that?

Technically, wouldn't a locator beacon prevent deep-striking LRs from scattering? I can see some interesting lists with lots of scouts and locator beacons. Probably wouldn't work too well, but it'd scare the hell out of someone...

Ediin wrote:

Seaward wrote:Exactly. But they will. I suspect we'll see the shockingly original naming pattern started with Space Wolves carried over into Dark Eldar - instead of putting "Wolf" or "Blood" in front of something, they'll just put "Dark" - and there will probably be some eye-rollingly bad ideas to rival deep striking Land Raiders in there as well.

Isn't that the Dark Angels' thing? You know, all marine codexes except vanilla need a word that ''belongs'' to them. In this case Dark Angels, right?

Or do I have to wait for the next Dark Angels codex to see that?

No, I suspect the Dark Angels' required adjective for everything will be "darkly angelic." Space Wolves got "wolf," Blood Angels got "blood," they're not going to break the pattern. People might get confused and think that a lightning claw is just a lightning claw no matter what you call it.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Technically, wouldn't a locator beacon prevent deep-striking LRs from scattering? I can see some interesting lists with lots of scouts and locator beacons. Probably wouldn't work too well, but it'd scare the hell out of someone...

Actually that sounds very cool. But I will never use the idea because it would force me to use the terrible Codex:BA.











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Seaward wrote:No, I suspect the Dark Angels' required adjective for everything will be "darkly angelic." Space Wolves got "wolf," Blood Angels got "blood," they're not going to break the pattern. People might get confused and think that a lightning claw is just a lightning claw no matter what you call it.

So no Dark Claw of Gothicness? Ediin sad

Ediin wrote:

KingCracker wrote:No HBMC is asking what the guy that wrote the codex said. At leas thats how Im taking it.

Mat Ward wrote:It made sense to me that if the Chapter's troops were grappling up close with the enemy from early on
then they would develop a method for their armoured support to perform a similar role. So the Blood Angels use Thunderhawk
Transporters to drop their Land Raiders directly into the heat of battle, trusting the tank's sturdy nature to allow for a safe landing for it, and
any passengers and crew.

Taken from page 19 of White Dwarf 364.

And of course, IMO, it's ridiculous. If it's so obvious, why didn't other chapters think of it? It's just stupid. Sorry Mat.

Wait...

What?

They literally just DROP them? I guess I just assumed that there was some sort of parachute (like the subsequently posted .jpg) or retro-rocket involved...

Sweet fancy Moses...

Ediin wrote:
So no Dark Claw of Gothicness? Ediin sad

Would a Dark Angelclaw cheer you up?

geoff wrote:
Wait...

What?

They literally just DROP them? I guess I just assumed that there was some sort of parachute (like the subsequently posted .jpg) or retro-rocket involved...

Sweet fancy Moses...

Yep. A grown thought that was a perfectly viable idea.

Mostly, I think it's the metal nipples.

As for the army list itself, I have no issues with it.

Alright a quick word on the 'deep-striking Land Raiders of Doooooom' mentality that seems to be sweeping the interwebz.

Firstly, and most importantly, units cannot assault out of a Land Raider that arrived by deep strike. Secondly, that Land Raider is in reserve, so any number of units that mess with reserves (OoTF being one that springs to mind) may very well delay not only the Raider, but also the 200+ point hammer unit inside. Thidly, the Land Raider has a ma-hoosive footprint on the table, thus increasing its chance of being mishapped (along with the unit inside) if it happens to scatter. Note the Land Raider does NOT benefit from the DoA special rule. Fourthly, the Land Raider has more than likely deep struck on top of you, thus bringing it even closer to the mass of meltaguns that you are wielding (you ARE playng 5th Ed. right?). Fifthly, the Land Raider can only shoot on of its weapons (PotMS) on the turn it lands, as opposed to the 1-2 it could do normally.

So...why are you worried about deep striking Land Raiders again?

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:So...why are you worried about deep striking Land Raiders again?

Worried? Not sure folks are worried. They are saying the idea is ridiculous for reasons you just stated as well as many others.

Mostly it is the background, and the over-use of 'Blood' as a descriptor.

And really, at this point, people need to get over the nipples on the armor.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:So...why are you worried about deep striking Land Raiders again?

The people who have been jumping to the defense of the deep striking LR in this thread seem to be missing the point. I dont think anyone here has actually claimed it's a broken or even useful tactic. I think a prior post summarizes the stigma against the Blood Angel codex the best, and might be worth repeating.

Gitzbitah wrote:Power Abs and Twilight prettyvampires were given FNP bubbles, accurate deepstriking, meltaproof skimmers that transport not one, but two units, deepstriking landraiders, cascading hit dreadnoughts, able to dish out an unlimited number of wounds a turn, psyker dreadnoughts, and harpoons to pull vehicles closer. That's at least 8 things that haven't been possible in 40k before.

There's nothing bad about the codex (excpet possibly the models if pretty men aren't your thing) but all of the unprecedented new directions are absurd. I remember when people freaked out because the Orks had d3 autocannon shots on their lootas, and codexes limited themselves to 3 or 4 new units and innovations.

The reason others (including myself) keep harping on the deepstriking LR is because of the utter physics-shattering absurdity to the idea. The other poster who likened it to a dropping elevator managing it's own fall, with both the elevator and passengers surviving the drop due to "sturdiness" hit it right on the head. The fact that a grown man thought that it was reasonable is just mind-boggling, and the tactical relevance of the concept has little if anything to do with what the detractors have been talking about.

The problem is Matt took everything one (sometimes two) steps too far. Take the simple jump pack assault marine.

To show that BA have more assault type guys he made them troop choices.

There. Done. Point made. BA like jump pack asssult guys. Good enough, well done.

But he had to take it two steps further with DOA. Not only do BA only scatter 1D6 instead of 2D6 like every other DS unit, but they can also reroll reserves because..... yeah no real reason.

That is the ##### of the BA codex and unfortunatly its loaded with it.

Alpharius wrote:Mostly it is the background, and the over-use of 'Blood' as a descriptor.

The Space Wolves codex is just as bad, if not worse, so I'm not sure why that's a BA-specific issue. At least the BA 'dex gets a synonym for "blood" every now and then rather than blood itself. I'm almost dead certain Phil Kelly just used some sort of macro to insert the word "wolf" after every two words in the SW 'dex.

Jayden63 wrote:The problem is Matt took everything one (sometimes two) steps too far. Take the simple jump pack assault marine.

To show that BA have more assault type guys he made them troop choices.

There. Done. Point made. BA like jump pack asssult guys. Good enough, well done.

But he had to take it two steps further with DOA. Not only do BA only scatter 1D6 instead of 2D6 like every other DS unit, but they can also reroll reserves because..... yeah no real reason.

That is the ##### of the BA codex and unfortunatly its loaded with it.

Eh, I don't think the DoA stuff's all that terrible. BA are the only folks who can do an all-jumper list, and if that all-jumper list is Deep Striking rather than hopping across the board, DoA is needed to make it viable. I don't think it's all that game-breaking, unless you're seeing cheesy DoA lists slaughtering their way through tournament after tournament where I'm not.

There's quite a bit of stupidity in the BA codex, but I'm not sure why it comes as a shock, given what came before it.

I bet we could get a fun discussion going on whether dropping a Land Raider from 30,000 feet is more dumb, as dumb, or less dumb than riding a giant wolf into battle, though.

Jayden63 wrote:

But he had to take it two steps further with DOA. Not only do BA only scatter 1D6 instead of 2D6 like every other DS unit, but they can also reroll reserves because..... yeah no real reason.

That is the ##### of the BA codex and unfortunatly its loaded with it.

What?! Seriously what's the reasoning behind that?

I can understand having one or the other, but it does seem slightly excessive having both . Ah well.

Adding special rules for the sake of adding special rules. All those bonus are just not necessary.

Why do 30 assault terminators have to rely on the whims of fate for their reserve rolls and have higher scatter?

Why do 15 crisis suits not know how to land next to their intended target?

Hell, jump packers are probably the guys who least need to not scatter as they have the higher movement rates to make up for it when they can actually move.

Seaward wrote:I bet we could get a fun discussion going on whether dropping a Land Raider from 30,000 feet is more dumb, as dumb, or less dumb than riding a giant wolf into battle, though.

You, sir, may very well have won this thread...

Jayden63 wrote:Adding special rules for the sake of adding special rules. All those bonus are just not necessary.

Why do 30 assault terminators have to rely on the whims of fate for their reserve rolls and have higher scatter?

Why do 15 crisis suits not know how to land next to their intended target?

Hell, jump packers are probably the guys who least need to not scatter as they have the higher movement rates to make up for it when they can actually move.

I dunno. Why can't standard Tacticals carry both a bolter AND a chainsword?

There's a lot of goofy stuff that some codices get advantages on and some don't. There's not a lot of rhyme or reason to a lot of it.

Melissia wrote:I can understand having one or the other, but it does seem slightly excessive having both . Ah well.

or even just a reason fluff-wise. Or is it just "we're just better than those other marine guys".

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:I can understand having one or the other, but it does seem slightly excessive having both . Ah well.

or even just a reason fluff-wise. Or is it just "we're just better than those other marine guys".

I believe they justify it by the BA using that method of deployment far more frequently than other chapters, and thus Dante just drills it. All the time.

What upsets me more than Mat Ward (who is just ONE man, after all) writing in deep-striking LRs, is the fact that out of all of the many people who work with him, and even worse, all of the people people have oversight, no-one stopped him and said

"Mat. No. Just no. That is just fething ridiculous. Only the A-Team can drop tanks out of aeroplanes."

(It has to be said, firing a tanks main gun as a method of steering it whilst plummeting towards the Earth is genius. And I say that as a man with an MEng in Aeronautical Engineering.)

It's the 40th Millennium. Is it really that hard to use imagination to figure out how a Land Raider could be inserted into a forward position on the battlefield without killing it's occupants falling elevator style. Really?

Grav chutes, teleportation, hot drop off, some funky tech inside the Land Raider.. and so on.

It's a fantasy game set in space. Key part of that being fantasy. And out of all the crazy hand-waivium fluff stuff we have, you're telling me Deepstriking Landraiders takes it over the edge?

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:It's the 40th Millennium. Is it really that hard to use imagination to figure out how a Land Raider could be inserted into a forward position on the battlefield without killing it's occupants falling elevator style. Really?

Grav chutes, teleportation, hot drop off, some funky tech inside the Land Raider.. and so on.

It's a fantasy game set in space. Key part of that being fantasy. And out of all the crazy hand-waivium fluff stuff we have, you're telling me Deepstriking Landraiders takes it over the edge?

Yes. Because they've said it's none of that stuff. It is, in fact, simply chucking it away from an overflying Thunderhawk.

Seaward wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:It's the 40th Millennium. Is it really that hard to use imagination to figure out how a Land Raider could be inserted into a forward position on the battlefield without killing it's occupants falling elevator style. Really?

Grav chutes, teleportation, hot drop off, some funky tech inside the Land Raider.. and so on.

It's a fantasy game set in space. Key part of that being fantasy. And out of all the crazy hand-waivium fluff stuff we have, you're telling me Deepstriking Landraiders takes it over the edge?

Yes. Because they've said it's none of that stuff. It is, in fact, simply chucking it away from an overflying Thunderhawk.

I don't think you can really deal in facts in a fantasy world yeah? Anyway, what they've said doesn't preclude using further i-ma-gi-nay-shun. So after they chuck it away, the detachable retro-grav boosters slow it's descent then fall away. Job done.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:It's the 40th Millennium. Is it really that hard to use imagination to figure out how a Land Raider could be inserted into a forward position on the battlefield without killing it's occupants falling elevator style. Really?

Grav chutes, teleportation, hot drop off, some funky tech inside the Land Raider.. and so on.

It's a fantasy game set in space. Key part of that being fantasy. And out of all the crazy hand-waivium fluff stuff we have, you're telling me Deepstriking Landraiders takes it over the edge?

Yes. Because they've said it's none of that stuff. It is, in fact, simply chucking it away from an overflying Thunderhawk.

I don't think you can really deal in facts in a fantasy world yeah? Anyway, what they've said doesn't preclude using further i-ma-gi-nay-shun. So after they chuck it away, the detachable retro-grav boosters slow it's descent then fall away. Job done.

Again, Ward's said exactly what happens. The Thunderhawk Transporter releases the Land Raider, and then trusts in the Land Raider's durability to survive the crash.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:It's the 40th Millennium. Is it really that hard to use imagination to figure out how a Land Raider could be inserted into a forward position on the battlefield without killing it's occupants falling elevator style. Really?

Grav chutes, teleportation, hot drop off, some funky tech inside the Land Raider.. and so on.

It's a fantasy game set in space. Key part of that being fantasy. And out of all the crazy hand-waivium fluff stuff we have, you're telling me Deepstriking Landraiders takes it over the edge?

40k is suppose to be all grim-dark. No one is happy. All life is doomed. Pain and suffering are all anyone knows.

Then, you have these damned action hero style Blood Angels who I can only picture as riding into battle in a really cheesy 80s music video. They're over the top to the point of silliness.

Since GW caused the squats to be eaten because they were too silly and didn't fit the theme, then I will start the demand for BA to befall the same fate!

FEED THE BLOOD ANGELS TO THE TYRANNIDS!!!

Who's with me?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:I can understand having one or the other, but it does seem slightly excessive having both . Ah well.

or even just a reason fluff-wise. Or is it just "we're just better than those other marine guys".

Its called we need to sell BA minis fast!

Jayden63 wrote:The problem is Matt took everything one (sometimes two) steps too far. Take the simple jump pack assault marine.

To show that BA have more assault type guys he made them troop choices.

No, he didn't. Jervis did that three years ago with the PDF codex. No one complained then, but now it's a blight on the integrity of 40k.

But he had to take it two steps further with DOA. Not only do BA only scatter 1D6 instead of 2D6 like every other DS unit, but they can also reroll reserves because..... yeah no real reason.

They re-roll failed reserves rolls for JP troops only, not all reserves. They don't re-roll successful rolls when it would be better to keep everything coming in together. It made a deep-striking jump troop army viable. If it was such a huge deal we'd see DoA armies everywhere, but we don't. We see the same razorback spam as with the wolves.

On the LR dropping. Am I correct in that there is no point cost to this ability-so they can drop for free when other marine forces cannot drop? Besides not being sane, where's the cost?

Its like watching V3 all over again.

Frazzled wrote:On the LR dropping. Am I correct in that there is no point cost to this ability-so they can drop for free when other marine forces cannot drop? Besides not being sane, where's the cost?

It's free in order to tempt someone into using it. If you actually had to pay points to get your raider to mishap no one would do it.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:It's the 40th Millennium. Is it really that hard to use imagination to figure out how a Land Raider could be inserted into a forward position on the battlefield without killing it's occupants falling elevator style. Really?

Grav chutes, teleportation, hot drop off, some funky tech inside the Land Raider.. and so on.

It's a fantasy game set in space. Key part of that being fantasy. And out of all the crazy hand-waivium fluff stuff we have, you're telling me Deepstriking Landraiders takes it over the edge?

That's not the point. The point is why can't the other 999 chapters do it?


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Seaward wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:I can understand having one or the other, but it does seem slightly excessive having both . Ah well.

or even just a reason fluff-wise. Or is it just "we're just better than those other marine guys".

I believe they justify it by the BA using that method of deployment far more frequently than other chapters, and thus Dante just drills it. All the time.

wow, that is awesome.

All of the BA successors use the DS LR also.

Dunno how many that is altogether, but I think there were 6 in the BA book.

As I see it, the rest of the Chapters know they could do it, but don't think its a good idea.
They also cannot equip their entire force with Jump Troops and DS them all.

My issue is the rampant special rules.

Assault troops with FNP and Furious charge! oh and they get landraider 35pts cheaper then everyone else.

Then mephiston comes in to go elbow deep on anyone and everyone he chooses. You may replace the word Mephiston with sanguinor and repeat the prior sentence.

Fast on every vehicle as well?! Dakka preds fireing everything even after moving 6. Vindies get a 36inch threat range. I mean I get why the transports should be 'fast' but why the heavy supports?

The codex is ridiculous. Won't the bad man stop!


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oh and I also wanted to say that the BA dex took everything special about chaos and made it better and more readily available. Furious charge, FNP, CC terminators anyone?

They mixed nurgle and khorne to make the average trooper and then made Meph a Fulgrim/Angron counts-as.

whew! rant over.

Seaward wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:It's the 40th Millennium. Is it really that hard to use imagination to figure out how a Land Raider could be inserted into a forward position on the battlefield without killing it's occupants falling elevator style. Really?

Grav chutes, teleportation, hot drop off, some funky tech inside the Land Raider.. and so on.

It's a fantasy game set in space. Key part of that being fantasy. And out of all the crazy hand-waivium fluff stuff we have, you're telling me Deepstriking Landraiders takes it over the edge?

Yes. Because they've said it's none of that stuff. It is, in fact, simply chucking it away from an overflying Thunderhawk.

Anyone read Soul Hunter? In it the Night Lords use a Thunderhawk Transporter to drop off a Land Raider to take out a damaged Warhound Titan by flying in low, doing a retro burn and dropping it at very low speed. The Raider spins its engines up and hits the ground moving.

Nobody ever said the tank gets dropped from high orbit.

And yes, you probably should be allowed to shoot it but, again, we're playing games with wee plastic soldiers. Who ride wolves.

Frazzled wrote:PLus they don't drop tanks onto the front lines because the enemy has a tendency to shoot at the aircraft.

If you get to drop LR's I should get the option of shooting down the aircraft or hitting the underside of the LR. If you're going to play landers you have to play all the lander rules.

You get even better, if it lands on your troops, the multi-ton vehicle dies instead of killing the things it lands on.

Alpharius wrote:Mostly it is the background, and the over-use of 'Blood' as a descriptor.

And really, at this point, people need to get over the nipples on the armor.

Nonsense, I think GW didn't go far enough by not giving the Blood Fist an option to replace the Blood Bolter with a Bloodthrower on the Bloodnaught.

Nipples are great stuff on females. Not so much interest on guys. Tho I gotta say, by the time Steve gets his waxed off in the 40-year-old Virgin, I'm laughing so hard I'm crying tears.

I say they didn't go too far enough. They should have replaced every word with 'Blood'.

Troop choice:
Blood Blood

Blood Blood. Blood Blood Blood, Blood Blood! Blood... Blood! Blood

Wargear: Blood Blood, Blood

Special rules: Blood, Blood, Blood

Blood: 155 Bloods

Miraclefish wrote:I say they didn't go too far enough. They should have replaced every word with 'Blood'.

Troop choice:
Blood Blood

Blood Blood. Blood Blood Blood, Blood Blood! Blood... Blood! Blood

Wargear: Blood Blood, Blood

Special rules: Blood, Blood, Blood

Blood: 155 Bloods

Why do you want to turn them into Space Wolves? :(

geoff wrote:It's threads like this one that remind me why GW make me sad...it just really feels like the integrity of the game is simply not a priority for them. Grey Wolves 18 months ago were basically what Dark Angels are now, a year and a new codex later, half the online community has sigs proclaiming how they are and always have been "wolves for life". I know, I know...fickle community is fickle. Nothing to see here...

I liked the novels?...

seeing as how they are winning every tournament instead of ig and wolfs...oh wait that's not what is happening.

BA are just glittery nipple models to attract the twilight players and vampire fetish crowd. Like the teenwolf players and smurf players, lets not forget the commie japanimation market tau, or the goth necrons, or emo DA players. Then you have the overaggressive ADD ork players that think sh1ty=orky, and the effeminate yet strait, or possibly gay eldar market maybe dark eldar is for the closet eldars? Of course chaos is for the kids that want to play space marines but have so much gamers funk they don't even fit in with the out crowd. Maybe just maybe GW is a model selling company looking to hit as many demographics as possible. As for squats I guess they found the little people big world market to be not big enough. Quite honestly GW is genius, they have figured out how to strip huge amounts of cash out of what would arguably be one of the most socially awkward and cash poor subsets of modern society.

BA are too expensive to be taken seriously as a competitive army.

A Thunderhawk Transporter dropping off a Land Raider looks like this:



It does not look like this:




I don't think Matt Ward understands how carry-all flyers actually work. They set their cargo down before lifting off again. They don't just drop Land Raiders like a fething bomb!

Dear god... I just laughed so hard at that 2nd pic that I can't see straight.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think Matt Ward understands how carry-all flyers actually work. They set their cargo down before lifting off again. They don't just drop Land Raiders like a fething bomb!

I agree. I demand sensible physics in my games with bipedal walking war machines. Bipedal walking war machines driven by undead space mutant religious zealots.

Frazzled wrote:On the LR dropping. Am I correct in that there is no point cost to this ability-so they can drop for free when other marine forces cannot drop? Besides not being sane, where's the cost?

Its like watching V3 all over again.

Yes, my Dark Angels and my Black Templars are crying all over their malfunctioning Storm Shields.

Honestly, I don't think the book is overpowered. BAs get some pretty sweet stuff but they pay through the vamp-hole for it. Sanguinary Priest with a power weapon is a nice addition for a tactical squad if you wanted to OH WAIT HE COSTS AS MUCH AS 5 MORE GUYS.

Thanks guys for helping me get over my nerd rage! Another thing that sucks about the BA codex is the picture on the front. - DOn't you think their heads all look a bit wrong? like they were cut out of a different picture and just stuck on?

Yes, it is quite hideous actually.

Heads up, the Dark Eldar codex is not nearly as overblown. It's the Space Marine ones in particular.

Chongara wrote:I agree. I demand sensible physics in my games with bipedal walking war machines. Bipedal walking war machines driven by undead space mutant religious zealots.

*stares blankly*

Yeah. 'Cause that's obviously what I was getting at.


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Kapitan Montag wrote:Another thing that sucks about the BA codex is the picture on the front. - DOn't you think their heads all look a bit wrong? like they were cut out of a different picture and just stuck on?

Someone went over that pic here a while ago, detailing exactly why it was a bad piece of artwork (something about the main focus of the picture being the Marine's knee, and a few other 'art errors' that he could see). It is bad. I prefer the Codex: Space Marines cover, even if the Marine has the most powerful bolter ever (!) as it's blowing a hole clean through a Chaos Marine.

H.B.M.C. wrote:A Thunderhawk Transporter dropping off a Land Raider looks like this:



It does not look like this:




I don't think Matt Ward understands how carry-all flyers actually work. They set their cargo down before lifting off again. They don't just drop Land Raiders like a fething bomb!

n0t_u for the WIN!

I love that guy.. truly an unsung genius of the AdMech..

Didn't he also discover the STC for 2 man anti-grav skimmers with heavy weapons?

RxGhost wrote:

Frazzled wrote:On the LR dropping. Am I correct in that there is no point cost to this ability-so they can drop for free when other marine forces cannot drop? Besides not being sane, where's the cost?

Its like watching V3 all over again.

Yes, my Dark Angels and my Black Templars are crying all over their malfunctioning Storm Shields.

Honestly, I don't think the book is overpowered. BAs get some pretty sweet stuff but they pay through the vamp-hole for it. Sanguinary Priest with a power weapon is a nice addition for a tactical squad if you wanted to OH WAIT HE COSTS AS MUCH AS 5 MORE GUYS.

He makes five as effective as 10 and then you get the pow weapon. Sanguinary priests are bargains for what they do when you arm them as you did.


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The strength in BA is not in their shiny new toys. It is in their heavy support slots and regular assault marines.

Yep I think that picture of Arkhan sums up his general reaction if he found out about the BA and their raiders.
He discovered the Land Raider, Land Skimmer and Land Crawler.

Kind of makes me want to make an Ad Mech army led by him so he can stare at the Deep striking raiders with disgust.

Of course out of all the times I've played against the Blood Angels not one has tried to deep strike a Land Raider.
Must realise how dumb it is or something

Lets not forget that Blood Angels get their own demon prince.

Can we just clarify to those leaping to their defence, that it's not their competitiveness or 'strength' (or lack of) that's the problem, it's the way everything is over-the-top. Not in-game, but in theory and reasoning.

"Yo, don't insult the Blood Angels. They're our homies. We fight with them cus they're pretty cool guys, yah know?"-Necrons

Just Dave wrote:Can we just clarify to those leaping to their defence, that it's not their competitiveness or 'strength' (or lack of) that's the problem, it's the way everything is over-the-top. Not in-game, but in theory and reasoning.

But that's true of the power armor codex released just before it as well, so I'm not sure why it's such a big issue. Space Wolves aren't exactly understated and dignified as they RIDE GIANT WOLVES INTO BATTLE with ale in one hand and a Wolfclaw of the Wolfy Wolf in the other.

That wolfclaw is also wielded by Howl McWolfson

I may be wrong but I believe the Space Wolves have always used Wolf or some variant of Canine as name structure for lots of their equipment since well forever.

The only issue I have with the Wolves are their Robot Chipmunks they ride. The BA how ever, well large portions of my issues have already been stated.

Both Space Wolves and Blood Angels are somewhat over the top. Thunderwolf cav and rule breaking individually targeting heavy weapon teams is bad enough with the wolves, but with the blood angels it just veers all the way off the road into ludicrous concepts of childish nonsense. It was like Matt Ward had a vision and in it Blood Angels were the spartans in 300 and the rest of us get to be the bad guys they slay in their thousands.

It would have been entirely appropriate to limit the BA to only getting Sang Guard as veterans, instead they have Sang Guard, Sternguard, Vanguard... and yet in their fluff they are suffering crippling loses to the red thirst?... Even by Johnson's mantra that background and fluff should hold a good deal of sway, that makes no bloody sense.

Fast vindicators, throwing millennia old venerated tanks out of aircraft, making friends with necrons, having greater daemon level characters on little bases sneaking about and shanking hive tyrants for pocket money... and flying psychic dreadnoughts...

Also as mentioned earlier, just WTF is the point of folks playing codex marines any more?

Why do Blood Angels, a blatantly assault based army, pay LESS for a lascannon equipped heavy weapon trooper than an Imperial Fist?

If they have to do variant chapter/legion lists for these noncodex Asstartes, then they should have made them different, not better in every way.

I still think they should scrap the extra marine codices, make one codex for all SMs and just charge £20 for it.

MGS I thought the Wolves have had split fire Heavy Weapons teams since 3rd ED.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
If they have to do variant chapter/legion lists for these noncodex Asstartes, then they should have made them different, not better in every way.

They're not better in every way, though. That's the thing. They may seem like it, but they aren't.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Thunderwolf cav and rule breaking individually targeting heavy weapon teams is bad enough with the wolves, but with the blood angels it just veers all the way off the road into ludicrous concepts of childish nonsense.

The problem with the Long Fangs isn't that they break the rule about everyone shooting the same target, it's that everybody else doesn't. The inability to tell the anti-tank guy to shoot the tank while the anti-infantry guys shoot the infantry is, quite frankly, stupid.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
It would have been entirely appropriate to limit the BA to only getting Sang Guard as veterans, instead they have Sang Guard, Sternguard, Vanguard...

Agree on the sternguard. They're really unnecessary. The vanguard in the C:SM, however, were derived from the veteran assault marines that were in the BA PDF codex so I think it's entirely appropriate that the BA were able to keep them.

Why do Blood Angels, a blatantly assault based army, pay LESS for a lascannon equipped heavy weapon trooper than an Imperial Fist?

That's got nothing to do with how special the BA are. Devastators were overpriced in the SM codex. GW recognized and fixed it. Future SM codices should see the same change.

I think the issue is that the BA codex is better than the C:SM is almost every way. In fact, other than a bike army, I cannot think of anything that a vanilla marine list can do that a BA one cannot. They even do a dread army better than vanilla marines. I suppose if you are really attached to land speeder storms or thunderfire cannons you cannot go with the BA codex but that seems to be about it.

For me, the really big issue is the Sanguinary Priests. A 6" Feel No Pain and Furious Charge bubble for roughly 75pts? Really? Who thought that out? The Storm Raven deserves a special mention as well. I have no issue with its rules (although the move 24" and use POTMS to fire a multi-melta is a bit nutty) rather, I don't understand why only BA should have it. It is patently absurd that only the Blood Angels are able to see the utility of a small assault transport able to carry a unit of assault troops and a dreadnought at the same time. This is rather like when the Land Raider Crusader was only available to Black Templars in that, regardless of the hair brained fluff reason behind it, the idea that no chapter other than the BA would find the Storm Raven useful is just plain silly. Similarly, the "we are going to keep the plans for out upgraded tank engines secret because we are protective of them!" fluff reason for BA having exclusive access to fast tanks is just stupid. Even in a game with over the top fluff the BA codex takes it to a whole new level. They may not be riding giant wolves but they really aren't that far off. The stealth demon prince and claws of unending close combat are just icing on the cake.

Shhh! Don't talk like that!

They might give all marine armies fast tanks and storm ravens!

Well, I'll admit I have not read much BA fluff this edition. I have a few questions.

1) What's this about being "close" to necrons? Necrons are soulless machines - how do you get close to that?

2) What's this about a Daemon Prince?

Also, on a tangent about dropping heavy vehicles with crew inside: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMD-1#Air-drop_techniques

Driver and gunner in as it drops. Yeah it's Wiki but it's the short version of what I already know.

M.

1. One of the sections has a short story where the Necrons and BA are fighting, but all of a sudden there are Tyranids. Then the BA and Necrons fight the Tyranids. Then when the Nids are gone they decide to not fight each other and just leave instead. Thus they are seen as the Necrons BFF.

2. That's a reference to Mephiston's crazy statline.

The Land Raider weighs around 72-81 Tonnes and is massive I don't think it should be getting dropped. To reiterate the point:


Rhino probably, Land Raider nope

Infantryman wrote:Also, on a tangent about dropping heavy vehicles with crew inside: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMD-1#Air-drop_techniques

That is not a heavy vehicle. It weighs about as much as an M113. A Rhino is probably heavier.

One thing about the dropping of LRs.

Has anyone played Innquisition Daemonhunt Mod for dow:dc? Coz thats how they do it. It makes perfect sense and the crew are safe.

If you havnt seen that, star ship troopers drop boxes anyone? The aircraft lands, then the LR is simply unclamped.

None the less, I do dislike the fact that the most noob player can pick up the codex and slaughter a pro with it. You would have to go total leaf blower if you wanted IG to beat an actual pro BA player.

Thanks n0t_u. That seems kinda silly, on both accounts.

Alex: I know; I meant to put a disclaimer about that very thing but I was distracted. It was supposed to be RE an earlier post about not having crew in dropped vehicles today. Just stating that it -can- be done with what is basically WW2 level tech.

M.

Chongara wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think Matt Ward understands how carry-all flyers actually work. They set their cargo down before lifting off again. They don't just drop Land Raiders like a fething bomb!

I agree. I demand sensible physics in my games with bipedal walking war machines. Bipedal walking war machines driven by undead space mutant religious zealots.

It's not so much that it bends Physics as that it rips it in half with one hand while Physics begs for its wife and children to be spared. The Blood Angels codex then rapes Physic's corpse in front of its kids for six hours, and takes a dump in its mouth before falling asleep on their couch.

It did what no other codex, (even the prior BA one) did before. And it did it in spades, to the point where it makde the new SM codex (thought to be game-changing at the time) look underpowered.

Take Drop pods for example. Specifically designed pods, made for delivering marines into combat via deep strike. No other army had something like it. Then the Blood Angels just say "Screw it. Let's just push out tanks out of the drop ships from orbit."

Another example: Cassius. His claim to fame was really high toughness. Nope, now BA characters get that sort of toughness by default.

Or Typhus, the Herald of Nurgle, who's out toughed by a Blood Angel.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Or Typhus, the Herald of Nurgle, who's out toughed by a Blood Angel.

Pfft. Typhus gets out-toughed by a lot of things. He's not even really toughness 5. Unlike those space wolves on wolves. Or Bloodcrushers. Or Mephiston.

And isn't it odd that Dante is initiative 6? Does he have the mark of Slaanesh or what?

Pika_power wrote:

Chongara wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think Matt Ward understands how carry-all flyers actually work. They set their cargo down before lifting off again. They don't just drop Land Raiders like a fething bomb!

I agree. I demand sensible physics in my games with bipedal walking war machines. Bipedal walking war machines driven by undead space mutant religious zealots.

It's not so much that it bends Physics as that it rips it in half with one hand while Physics begs for its wife and children to be spared. The Blood Angels codex then rapes Physic's corpse in front of its kids for six hours, and takes a dump in its mouth before falling asleep on their couch.

It did what no other codex, (even the prior BA one) did before. And it did it in spades, to the point where it makde the new SM codex (thought to be game-changing at the time) look underpowered.

Take Drop pods for example. Specifically designed pods, made for delivering marines into combat via deep strike. No other army had something like it. Then the Blood Angels just say "Screw it. Let's just push out tanks out of the drop ships from orbit."

Another example: Cassius. His claim to fame was really high toughness. Nope, now BA characters get that sort of toughness by default.

This.

Jaon wrote:One thing about the dropping of LRs.

Has anyone played Innquisition Daemonhunt Mod for dow:dc? Coz thats how they do it. It makes perfect sense and the crew are safe.

If you havnt seen that, star ship troopers drop boxes anyone? The aircraft lands, then the LR is simply unclamped.

Except the Land Raider isn't 'dropped off', it's thrown off at high velocity. with a load of blokes in it.
If it was dropped off then it would make sense. However it's not and there's no chance for the enemy to try and shoot said Thunderhawk down.

Seaward wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Can we just clarify to those leaping to their defence, that it's not their competitiveness or 'strength' (or lack of) that's the problem, it's the way everything is over-the-top. Not in-game, but in theory and reasoning.

But that's true of the power armor codex released just before it as well, so I'm not sure why it's such a big issue. Space Wolves aren't exactly understated and dignified as they RIDE GIANT WOLVES INTO BATTLE with ale in one hand and a Wolfclaw of the Wolfy Wolf in the other.

I play Space Wolves but I agree their codex is also OTT and Over-powered. However...
- The only Wolf-named additional equipment to the Space Wolves was the Wolf Claw. Everything else had been there in the previous Codex.
- Wolves are more OTT in Game Terms, whereas the Blood Angels are OTT in Fluff and Reasoning Terms.

Some of the stuff in the Wolves Codex is over-done, eg. Thunder Wolf Cavalry *shudder*, Lukas the Prickster, Canis Wolfboring etc.

However, these are the only 3 that SPRING to mind, Blood Angels have:
- Flying Landraiders.
- Flying Psyker Dreadnoughts.
- Daemon Prince/Primarch Mephiston
- Golden Armoured Jesus. Whoops. Sanguinor.
- Vehicle Grapples?!
- BA exclusive Flyers
- Apothecary's round every other corner
- Fast everything.
- Even more use of a specific word (Blood) as a descriptor.
- Homeboys with Necrons

So Space Wolves have a lot of flaws, Blood Angels have even more! So that's like... How many flaws? A lot, no?
Space Wolves are OTT in-game: TWC shouldn't exist, Rune Priests should be much worse, Long Fangs should be much more expensive and Grey Hunters should have some feasible downside. But part of Codex Creep is that Blood Angels blew the Space Wolves out of the water in terms of ridiculousness, just not in competitiveness.
Finally, in why the Space Wolves are less OTT than Blood Angels. I can understand only the Wolves riding on giant chihuahua's*, what I can't understand is how only the Blood Angels and their few successors are the only chapters to have pskyer dreads, personal Valkyries, flying Land Riaders and a shed load of apothecary's...

They both suck, but yours sucks more.

*I dont endorse the idea of giant space puppies, I do however endorse that if they have to exist, that only one chapter uses them.

IMO on the tabletop Space Wolves are much more powerful than Blood Angels. It's really not close. Vanilla marines have as much of a chance to defeat SW as BA do. Vanilla marines have combat tactics which allow them to get out of problem areas and let the rest of the army shoot the problem to death.

BA have lots of tricks and fun units, but overall they aren't superior to codex marines like Space Wolves are.

I'd say in terms of fluff Blood Angels are superior to every other Space Marine. In game terms, then generally the Space Wolves win.

I do fully accept however that Space Wolves are superior in competitiveness and that they are over-powered. I didn't argue Blood Angels are OTT in-game, just everything else.

In game I'd say Blood Angels can be one of the better codices due to the variety of potential builds and uses.

The Blood Angels are OTT in physics rape and fluff (And Blood), While the SW are OP in-game.

The Blood Angels are still twice as annoying.

Sometimes when I think about suicide I pick up the White Dwarf featuring the BA release and just stare at it.
If I feel really depressed I read the Codex too. I stare at it and scream in frustration just to vent my feelings.
If I want to pull my stomach out through my anus, I read every Liber Apocalyptica Robin Crudacce has ever written.

The Iron Warriors counter-attacked the Tyranids with 600 Defilers. But the Iron Warriors, the greatest siege troops in the multiverse,
had not suspected that the Tyranids might possess tunneling equipment. Thus they were consumed by hundreds of thousands of Trygons. End.

Massive Space Puppies are acceptable. Space Wolfs don't exactly have a reputation for being the most sensible or anything. I mean, all they're doing is riding on giant wolves. Sounds pretty standard for a non-codex chapter.

In short, the Massive Space Puppies make sense.

On the other hand, Mephiston really has no excuse for his Carnifex-esque statline. What, he's really strong and tough and such?

Of course, chucking Land Raiders out from orbit is a really stupid idea for a chapter to have. It risks imperial tech, and has no reasonable reason. And no, "Delivering the men into combat faster" is not a reason. You do that by using Drop pods. You know, the tool specifically designed to drop your men down from space?

Kapitan Montag wrote: Another thing that sucks about the BA codex is the picture on the front.

Yes, the throwback artwork on the cover is horrible. It's amazing that GW didn't put one of their better artists on it, for something similar to the SW or CSM covers.


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andain841 wrote: I cannot think of anything that a vanilla marine list can do that a BA one cannot.

Try fielding both armies with a full 6 10-man Tactical Squads in Rhinos as their army core, and the SM one will do better.

I would love to have a storm raven XD

Just Dave wrote:However, these are the only 3 that SPRING to mind, Blood Angels have:
- Flying Landraiders.

- BA exclusive Flyers

- Fast everything.

- Homeboys with Necrons

If you're going to nerdrage, at least get your facts straight.

- The BA have DEEP-STRIKING Land Raiders. Maybe BA have giant teleporter pads, who knows, who cares? After the Space Woofs riding giant Woofs debacle (which there's simply no getting around), anything is possible, no matter how ridiculous.

- Yeah, just like how BT had the lock on the Crusader for the longest time. Wait your turn, like everybody else.

- Overcharged engines rule. Too bad they aren't free.

- Where is this in the RULES? If you're going nuts over Fluff, I've got a book by CS Goto you can read a few times to make you feel better.

Jayden63 wrote:The problem is Matt took everything one (sometimes two) steps too far. Take the simple jump pack assault marine.

To show that BA have more assault type guys he made them troop choices.

There. Done. Point made. BA like jump pack asssult guys. Good enough, well done.

But he had to take it two steps further with DOA. Not only do BA only scatter 1D6 instead of 2D6 like every other DS unit, but they can also reroll reserves because..... yeah no real reason.

That is the ##### of the BA codex and unfortunatly its loaded with it.

You forgot that Dante can make his unit not scatter at all. Fun fun. Oh, not only that, but your 200+ HQ unit starts with 1 less wound, 1 less WS, 1 less Initiative. . .

Actually they do explain how Brother Calistarius became Mephiston, the Lord of Death. The friendly and voluble Calistarius succumbed to the Black Rage and was trapped under a mountain of rubble far past the point of Astates endurance. Something overcame his inhuman bloodlust and he was reborn with a dark secret, one that he now keeps from his Battle-Brothers and which will eventually destroy the Blood Angels.

You know, those Blood Angels that aspire to perfection and a golden future?

Something else I'll mention is the recurrence of the same Bloodthirster throughout the Blood Angels history. It's like a Bloody Rage is haunting the Blood Angels...

Also the Friends with Benefits thing with the Necrons isn't so much friends as cessation of prolonged and spectacularly violent hostilities for the duration of a Tyranid invasion, after which they were both too farked up to fight to the death. Maybe it's just where I came from, but if your fight to the death with some donkey-cave gets broken up by the pigs and you're later unable to kill him, people don't think you're friends.

I'm not saying Codex: Blood Angels is better than most of the fanbrew in our very own Rules Development forum, it's not, but I am saying that GW fans tend to make mountains out of molehills.

I'm also not saying we shouldn't care, because we should care about our hobby and its contents, but people should get annoyed with the things actually deserve annoyance rather than succumbing to some bizarre 1984-esque 5-minute hate.

AlexHolker wrote:That is not a heavy vehicle. It weighs about as much as an M113. A Rhino is probably heavier.

Suspensors could have something to say about that.

I'm just saying.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Or Typhus, the Herald of Nurgle, who's out toughed by a Blood Angel.

Although that's purely the fault of Gav and Alessio.

What was it you called them in your CSM review?

Edit: Found it!

The authors of this train wreck are Gavin ‘They Still Let Me Write Rules!’ Thorpe, and Alessio ‘I Should Know Better Than This’ Cavatore. Interestingly my spellchecker knew the words ‘Alessio’ and ‘Cavatore’, but suggested ‘Failure’ as an alternative to ‘Gavin’ and ‘Thorpe’. Now I mention the authors because when I get to this end of the review I have a few things to mention on the full credits page, and because I found it funny that the author’s names were so small at the bottom, almost as if they were hoping someone wouldn’t see it was them who wrote it.

I think I'll sig part of that.

It's possible that GW took this far OTT view with Space Wolves and Blood Angels because they know they won't get back to them for a good while. This way they might survive an edition without needing a new codex release. At least, that's what I tell myself when I know when I play my brother next, I'm going to have a flying psychic dreadnought fly into my army.

I still think the only OTT fluff in the Space Wolves Book is the single blurb about them driving Land Raiders across the bottom of the Ocean and fighting Crisis Battle Suits fitted with Propellers.

Well that and the whole Thunder Wolf thing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Just Dave wrote:However, these are the only 3 that SPRING to mind, Blood Angels have:
- Flying Landraiders.

- BA exclusive Flyers

- Fast everything.

- Homeboys with Necrons

If you're going to nerdrage, at least get your facts straight.

- The BA have DEEP-STRIKING Land Raiders. Maybe BA have giant teleporter pads, who knows, who cares? After the Space Woofs riding giant Woofs debacle (which there's simply no getting around), anything is possible, no matter how ridiculous.

- Yeah, just like how BT had the lock on the Crusader for the longest time. Wait your turn, like everybody else.

- Overcharged engines rule. Too bad they aren't free.

- Where is this in the RULES? If you're going nuts over Fluff, I've got a book by CS Goto you can read a few times to make you feel better.

For what it's worth I've never nerd-raged, although I am fairly impressed by your arrogance.

So first in your 'line of defence' are the semantics of flying over deep-striking? I purposely exageratted the flying aspect for four reasons, one; it's slightly humorous, two; it suits the exaggerated idea of deep-striking Land Raiders, three; repition alongside flying dreadnought, four; it is arguably flying considering it's travelling through the air. If you are going to argue my being 'wrong' over a single word, then you could similarly complain about how the golden armoured jesus or that TWC actually have no thunder

I don't care about my turn and frankly the turn is not going to come around any time soon for any other Marine Dex's. It's not that the Blood Angels have their own Valkyrie (I know it's not actually a Valkyrie don't 'nerd-rage' me about it), it's that no-one else has it. As I said and you conveniently ignored, Thunderwolves are ridiculous, but at-least they are limited to one chapter for a reason. There is little logic in only the Blood Angels having a Storm-raven. Thunderwolves only 'exist' on Fenris, Storm-ravens can be built and manufactured for any Space Marine Chapter and for the good of the Imperium.

Yeah, over-charged engines aren't free. bugger. it must suck being able to have fast vehicles for little extra. I expect most people will agree that for what you get, over-charged engines are worth it.

It's not in the rules. I never said it was in the rules and I didn't say the rules were the problem with Blood Angels. If you are going to claim me to be wrong, how about you listen to what I say rather than pick and choose.

As I said, Space Wolves are also OTT, except they are LARGELY OTT in terms of the game. Blood Angels are OTT also, except they are more OTT in terms of logic and fluff. For one thing it's a natural part of 'Codex-creep' but as has been said over and over again, the Blood Angels have taken things two steps too far whereas the Space Wolves took it 1 step too far.
As I said (and you conveniently didn't quote) they are both flawed and TWC is a stupid idea, as are many things in the SW Codex. however it still doesn't compensate for the list of stupidity present throughout the Blood Angel Codex.

Not to mention, the Land Raider Crusader wasn't completely locked to Black Templars. Other chapters got it on a 0-1 limit. I'd kill for a Baal Predator, a single Baal Predator, for my Salamanders. It would get me playing the army again.

Just Dave wrote:If you are going to argue my being 'wrong' over a single word, then you could similarly complain about how the golden armoured jesus or that TWC actually have no thunder

LMAO

I think there's nothing bad about the new Codex: Blood Angels-- all the GW haters just have to find new things to complain about now that Codex Creep doesn't really exist.

So you've not read the fluff then? Or do you just not have an opinion on any of it?

Mainly fluff. It has superseded the Space Marine codex for the most idiotic crap ever put down in ink.

Other than that, it's a neat codex, especially for people wanting to run counts-as lists. You can do armor heavy, dread heavy, jumppack heavy, skimmer heavy, etc. There are a lot of opportunities for theme lists and representing some more niche chapters, whether they be Chaos or Loyalist.

BrotherStynier wrote:So you've not read the fluff then? Or do you just not have an opinion on any of it?

The fluff is fine. There are a few silly/corny things, but there's silly/corny fluff in every Codex, and if you look past those details, the main fluff about the structure and legacy of the BA is really quite good.

I suppose you're right about the Structure, but some of it is still a little too much for me.

I do think the army itself would be a fun one to use for counts as simply for the options. I'll just avoid most of the fluff.

What about the Bloody Blood Blood Blood of Blood Chalice's Blood Lance Blood?

Honestly? There's nothing that can top the fluff stupidity of Thunderwolf Cavalry. I'm really not even sure why all you Space Wolf guys are trying.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Try fielding both armies with a full 6 10-man Tactical Squads in Rhinos as their army core, and the SM one will do better.

Why do you think this is true? The difference in the two lists is <100 pts. and I think that most people would agree that making all your rhinos fast vehicles is worth the extra cost. Is there something I am missing? I can't see combat tactics being the difference maker here so where does the advantage come from?

BrotherStynier wrote:I do think the army itself would be a fun one to use for counts as simply for the options.

This is one of the problems that has been brought up earlier in this thread. You're completely correct with this idea. Why would you not run vanilla marines as BA? They have access to very nearly the whole marine codex and a ton of extra options. I don't think there is anything necessarily "broken" about this but it does, to me at any rate, point to poor codex design. Why design a codex that is far superior, except in some limited situations, to the one it is based off of?

BrotherStynier wrote:I still think the only OTT fluff in the Space Wolves Book is the single blurb about them driving Land Raiders across the bottom of the Ocean and fighting Crisis Battle Suits fitted with Propellers.

Oh. My. God. That is so win.

It did make me wanna create both an under water Tau Army and Space Wolf Army.

Whoever said that the overcharged engines aren't free is actually wrong, if you take assault squads with razorbacks you get them CHEAPER than Codex Marines.

FaarisShazad wrote:So, you guys don't think these kinds of codexes are setting the standard for the rest of the other codex remakes? In a few months you'll all be saying dark eldar are OTT, then grey knights, then necrons or tau or WHATEVER. Pretty much any new codex has ushered in a whole new wave of craziness.. so why get your knickers in a twist over it when they're just going to make a new codex that goes even further down the road of insanity?
If you want some measure of control over it, apply for a job with GW. I'm sure there's a "fluff/rule nazi" division with a few vacancies

I think the new Codices have indeed been setting a standard, that that's a good standard, and that GW should keep making Codices like the new Blood Angels (or Tyranids, or Space Wolves, or Imperial Guard, or Space Marines, or Orks...) Codex. If things keep up the way they've been going, that'd be great-- after all, 40k is getting better.

Agreed the new codices are much better then the old ones. It can only help to reinvigorate gaming.

I'm thinking that the whole DSing LR thing will be forgotten soon enough, not single person in the tournament metagame would try it for reasons that are obvious. While casual players might use it from time-to-time, they'll probably be tired of it after a few mishaps.

The Necron thing is just odd, easily fixed; next BA novel features 'crons as hostiles and no 'nids there to help force any kind of cooperation. Heck the Deciever can pose as the Sanguinor for the lulz.

The "Blood" thingy was just horrible. Space Wolves have that "Wolf" thingy, but if you going back to the 3rd edition codex its more a case that they venerate the wolf in the same way that certain tribal groups would venerate the bear or the jaguar. The whole 'Bloody McBlood-Gore" thing makes it seem like they have a guro/vore fetish.

Sure some of their gear is a little OP, but there are downsides, for one thing it makes BA players more likely to take cookie-cutters, and at their core they're still MEQ which means most anti-MEQ strategies will still work.

The dreads and special characters are a different matter entirely, but with the first 4 pages on characters in SM codex and the same for SW, kicking up a big fuss about OP chars is like teens rebelling in Che t-shirts, its been going on so long but people don't realize that, like how the younger Baby-Boomers wore that same shirt with that same photo at the same age back in the late 60s and 70s.

The dreads are... well I think the BA should just have had DC as an upgrade and the Furiouso dreadnought replacing the Ironclad's spot. Dreadnought spam is something that seems believable with techno-fetishist Ironhands, not the Angel-Edward wannabes with anger-management issues.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Although that's purely the fault of Gav and Alessio.

What was it you called them in your CSM review?

Edit: Found it!

Weirdly, other than the 'failure' gag, I wasn't lying about that. My spellchecker did know "Alessio" and "Cavatore", but "Gav" and "Thorpe" completely threw it.

Just Dave wrote:For what it's worth I've never nerd-raged, although I am fairly impressed by your arrogance.

Welcome to the club.

Y'see Just Dave, John is one of the group we call the "WRONGBADFUNs", a group of people who 'patrol' the boards instructing others on how they should enjoy the hobby, or that the way that they enjoy their hobby is incorrect. There are others like him around the place. They're annoying, but easily ignored.

Really it was only a matter of time before he showed up to ruin everyone's fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyclonus wrote:I'm thinking that the whole DSing LR thing will be forgotten soon enough, not single person in the tournament metagame would try it for reasons that are obvious. While casual players might use it from time-to-time, they'll probably be tired of it after a few mishaps.

It's not the application (or even the in-game use) of DSing Land Raiders that is the problem - it's the concept and Matt Ward's justification for it.

1. Why do only the BA's get Deep Striking Land Raiders? If it is technological, how does it work, and what makes it unique? If it is doctrinal, why does no one else try it?
2. His justification was that the BA's always advance forward and go for the throat (or words to that effect), so they can... Deep Strike Land Raiders? There's a disconnect. If they're bringing them in via Thunderhawk Transporter (a completely reasonable thing to do), then are they the only Chapter (ignoring successors) to sue Thunderhawk Transporters in this way?

Yes, DSing Land Raiders in a game is stupid and very few people would actually every do it, but as I said, we're not talking about the rules, we're talking about the in-universe reasons.

When a writer comes up with justification that essentially amounts to "they chuck the tank out of an airplane," you have to wonder if said writer has just stopped caring.

Watch, next we'll see a canon example of the Sanguinor surfing on a Land Raider carried by four flying psyker Dreadnoughts, and we'll know that Matt Ward just doesn't give a gak anymore.

I wouldn't worry too much about that.

There's a chance that once his contract is up, he'll either not be writing Codices, or heading back to Fantasy rules writing.

SaintHazard wrote:
Watch, next we'll see a canon example of the Sanguinor surfing on a Land Raider carried by four flying psyker Dreadnoughts, and we'll know that Matt Ward just doesn't give a gak anymore.

Oh man. Let's hope not. I said earlier in this thread that nothing trumps Space Marines riding into battle on wolves in terms of fluff stupidity, and that would come close.

Psyker Dreadnoughts that can transport one Land Raider, and use it as an extra CCW.

A Vindicator that, instead of a Demolisher, has a cannon that shoots Death Company.

An IC that removes itself as a casualty and places the large blast marker where the model used to be - anything under the marker takes a strength 10 hit as it explodes because it cannot contain all of its awesome.

Jump pack infantry that, when deep striking, may scatter on top of enemy units and cause the enemy units to mishap.

You heard it here first.

My main upset about Blood Angels (I used to love their 3rd ed Codex, though.. for fluff!!) are the fast vehicles.. from my point of view the biggest advantage they got.. remember over-charged engines of the old rhinos (and salamander scout vehicles, for the imperial armour nerds), you had a chance to go +6 inch at the exchange of a difficult terrain test, and no shooting whatsoever.
I could have accepted fast Rhinos, maybe agile predators & Razorbacks ("Agile" aka 12 inch movement: 1 primary + unlimited secondary, 6 inch movement every weapon).... but i cannot stand 18 inch cruisin' Vindicators...

Deep Strike of Landraider reminds of of "Operation Pennydrop" http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=penny_drop....
I see Dante sitting on a orbital command bridge saying "Who, we're so f*cking rich, we use armor of pure gold, and we have soooo many Land Raiders (remember only 2! Terminator Squads (1 Assault) of vanillas could have one as dedicated Transport, Rest used up Heavy Slots) we can just drop it on the enemy! Reversed Mawloc anyone??"

With the whole DS Land Raider, A fluff Reason on why only the Blood Angels can do it is every other Space marine (Inclduing the Wolves) Is either actually sane or not completly slowed.

Seaward wrote:Honestly? There's nothing that can top the fluff stupidity of Thunderwolf Cavalry. I'm really not even sure why all you Space Wolf guys are trying.

You're just mad your dog doesn't eat polar bears.

Seaward wrote:Honestly? There's nothing that can top the fluff stupidity of Thunderwolf Cavalry.

OK, the Thunderwolf Cavalry do REALLY suck in fluff terms, I think we can all agree that giant wolves being ridden into battle by huge, heavy superhuman warriors is ridiculous even for Warhammer. And as really bad as the idea is, it still - IMO - pales in comparison to the sheer amount of 'fluff stupidity' in the Blood Angel Codex.

EVEN Thunderwolves aren't as stupid or OTT as the combined idea of Flying Landraiders (sorry JHDD, deep-striking Landraiders), Flying Dreadnoughts, Mephiston Statistics, Sanguinor, 5 types of veterans and Necron Bromance.


In terms of fluff-stupidity. IF, IF Thunderwolf Cavalry did exist and were some of the deadliest predators on Fenris, then it would make sense for Space Wolves to use them. It fits the wolf obsession and because of the alpha/pack nature of TWC they are tameable. People used to use War-Elephants for a reason.
Its a bad idea, but if they did exist as they are said to in the Codex then 'using' them would make SOME sense.

However, I fail to see the sense of Blood Angels having access to the heaviest standard-battle-tanks in the Imperium (Land Raiders) and chucking them out of Land Raiders at high velocity. Combine this with keeping Storm-ravens and over-charged STC to yourself and there is even more fluff-stupidity there.

If TWC did exist then it would make SOME sense to use them. It doesn't however make sense to throw huge battle tanks out of a Thunderhawk nor to keep valuable technology to yourself despite mankind fighting for its very survival.

As I said, I'm not defending TWC and I completely agree it's a stupid idea, however Blood Angels take it even further and completely remove it from logic.
Blood Angels are what Thunderwolf Cavalry are to Fenrisian Wolves.
Too Stupid, too OTT and one step too far.
I'm saying it again though in the hope of you listening to this, TWC is a really bad idea, but the Blood Angels (at least combined) take it even further IMO...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Just Dave wrote:For what it's worth I've never nerd-raged, although I am fairly impressed by your arrogance.

Welcome to the club.

Y'see Just Dave, John is one of the group we call the "WRONGBADFUNs", a group of people who 'patrol' the boards instructing others on how they should enjoy the hobby, or that the way that they enjoy their hobby is incorrect. There are others like him around the place. They're annoying, but easily ignored.

Really it was only a matter of time before he showed up to ruin everyone's fun.

thanks man, I think. I feel very welcomed.

I had seen your beef with John before but I had never really seen why. Now though...
It wasn't so much that he told me how to enjoy the hobby, it's that he (appeared) to simply argue for no reason. He barely had an argument to defend. It's simply rude and arrogant IMHO, no-one gets away with that IRL but hey I'll leave that there... *sorry Mods*

I happen to agree with Seaward on that one. I really hate Thunderwolves.

Really really really hate them.

Orcs and goblins riding Wargs, in a fantasy setting, I can handle. I liked it better when Orcs rode War Pigs, but Wargs are *acceptable*. Translate that to Humans, and it gets silly. Put that human in power armor, give him a gun, and put him on a THUNDARRWULFFF, and suddenly it gets irreparably stupid.

Deck him out in Wolf Armor, give him a Wolf Sword of Wolf, have him wear a Wolf Tooth Wolflace, and name him Wolf Wolfborn, and you've got the Space Wolves codex - irreparable stupid turned up to 11.

I don't know. I've always had a soft spot for human riding huge wolves/dogs. It's probably a throw back to S.M. Stirling and David Drakes Raj Whitehall series but I think it's pretty damn cool. Granted none of the people riding the enormous dogs in that series were 8 feet tall and wearing super heavy army but I can see "enhancing" riding dogs to that point.

Personally I don't have a problem with any of the fluff from either book. I use my own imagination to fill in holes or to make things work out and don't think about it that much. Then again I don't see the need to spend my time getting worked up about the story line of a fictional game.

@Just Dave: Dude, I get that you think your stupid Woofs are better than Blud. I think Woofs are stupider. No biggie, and nothing for you to get your panties in such a twist.

I don't think that you're "wrong" per se. I think that you need to chill out a bit over stories and rules for toy soldiers.

I totally get that you're exaggerating over "flying Land Raiders", but if it takes exaggeration to make your point, maybe your point isn't that strong to begin with. Deep-striking Land Raiders are novel and unique, but not really strong or OP, so who cares? Do you want to complain how Possessed get their special ability post-deployment - similarly unique and wierd, and potentially (but very rarely) broken?

There's nothing obviously unique about TWC at all. If UMs decided ride Mammoths into battle, or if Salamanders decided to ride Stegadon Ancients into battle, I wonder what they'd count as... If you've ever been to a factory, you'd know it takes time to set up a production line. Maybe that's why it took years for the LRC to trickle out, and same with the SRG. But yeah, go back and read C: Armag about how rare the LRCs are.

It's a fecking game, dude. No need to be so mad. Just enjoy the game.

Blood for the Corpse-God! Wolf Skulls for the Golden Throne!

Seaward wrote:Honestly? There's nothing that can top the fluff stupidity of Thunderwolf Cavalry. I'm really not even sure why all you Space Wolf guys are trying.

So that people spend less time pointing at the sheer amount of obvious ridiculousness in their Codex?

It's wierd, because *everything* GW writes has a bunch of stupidity that requires a high level of suspension of disbelief. All this kind of finger-pointing does is get people to focus on the ridiculousness of the entire game universe, which is ultimately detrimental to enjoying the game.
____

andain841 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Try fielding both armies with a full 6 10-man Tactical Squads in Rhinos as their army core, and the SM one will do better.

Why do you think this is true? The difference in the two lists is <100 pts.

and I think that most people would agree that making all your rhinos fast vehicles is worth the extra cost. Is there something I am missing?

I can't see combat tactics being the difference maker here so where does the advantage come from?

100 pts is 100 pts - that's an extra Hero or whatever. More / extra stuff on the board is always better.

Fast Rhinos are nice, but for delivering Boltermarine Tacticals? Not so much, I think. At least, not like Fast Razors / Preds / Vindis.

I see it as saving points for essentially identical forces, with more tactical flexibility on the board.
____

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:I still think the only OTT fluff in the Space Wolves Book is the single blurb about them driving Land Raiders across the bottom of the Ocean and fighting Crisis Battle Suits fitted with Propellers.

Oh. My. God. That is so win.

Or ridiculous FAIL, depending on one's POV.

JHDD,
It's not the game that I'm 'mad' about, nor is it the Blood Angels codex. The reason I apparently have my 'panties in such a twist' is - quite frankly - your arrogance.
You have no idea quite how little I play the hobby, nor care for it. I just try to help others and engage with the back-ground yet you claim for me to have been worked up about it. In fact it's you seeming to ignore what I or others say and simply argue and - as they say on the internetz - 'flame'. Maybe I did act overly-aggressively or whatever, I admit it. I had just got back from a night out so I wasn't exactly the most awake I could be. However you encouraged me to act in such a way with your comments and you've done it again. Maybe you intend to, maybe you're just a very argumental and aggressive person, I don't know nor do I care.
It doesn't change the fact that you appear to drop your 'argument' and respond in such a way that I look like the idiot, claiming me to have my panties in a twist etc. in a blatant attempt to wind me up. Targeting my comments despite that they support what so many others have said in this very thread.

yet once again you ignored what I said. I didn't argue 'flying' Land Raiders to be over-powered. Where they differ from possessed is that the reasoning behind possessed makes sense. Whether you choose to admit it or not you just pointed out how rare LR's are and how 'it took years for the LRC to trickle out', yet then again you simultaneously defend the idea of throwing them out of high-speed aircraft into the face of the enemy?
I repeatedly accept the flaws of the TWC and the Space Wolf Codex, however I similarly criticise the even more common flaws of the BA codex. You however seem to ignore anything I say except for that which you can exploit or use in an attempt to wind me up.
As you so acutely said, it's a game, no need to be so mad. I never really had a problem with your nor anyone else on Dakka as it is just a game, a game which I'm increasingly detached from. now however I see what H.B.M.C was getting at. It's not the game that bothers me, nor was it the game that 'got my panties in a twist'.

Don't hate the game, hate the players.

Exactly what I was getting at.

@Dave: Sorry if you think I was trying to get a rise out of you. You seemed to be way too mad over a silly game. Sorry, again.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Dave: Sorry if you think I was trying to get a rise out of you. You seemed to be way too mad over a silly game. Sorry, again.

Irony rears its ugly head once again, with a silly grin on its face, tongue hanging out one side of its equine muzzle. Across the winds, the cries of a thousand logicians may be heard, as they suddenly feel a stabbing pain in their chest - unknowing of its origin... knowing only that somewhere, somehow, logic is being raped.

Apology Accepted Man, sorry if I was over aggressive.

Underwater Land Raiders fighting Tau with Propellers.

I liked the game better when it was sci fi, but not tongue in cheek. On the bright side, it's not devolved into a bunch of pop culture references like some games I know.

Fortunately, the main armies don't seem to have stupid crap like this, though I'm still not over Ultramar's realm being perfect worlds of perfectness.

M.

Infantryman wrote:
I liked the game better when it was sci fi, but not tongue in cheek.

When, in the history of the game, did such a phase exist?

40k has always be saturated with camp.

Just Dave wrote:
EVEN Thunderwolves aren't as stupid or OTT as the combined idea of Flying Landraiders (sorry JHDD, deep-striking Landraiders), Flying Dreadnoughts, Mephiston Statistics, Sanguinor, 5 types of veterans and Necron Bromance.

Deep-striking Land Raiders isn't inherently stupid. The way it was described outside of the codex is inherently stupid. Dreadnoughts fly via psychic powers, and I'm not going to touch that one, or else I'd have to point out all the other dumb psychic powers out there. What's wrong with Mephiston? Have you just not figured out that he doesn't have an answer to plasma or something? And I REALLY don't get Sanguinor hate. Do you mean in fluff terms or in game terms? What veterans do BA have that everyone else doesn't?

Again, I just don't think the guys who play the codex with Canis Wolfborn in it can really complain about other codices with a straight face. To put it into perspective, if "Ultra" had been seen every three words in the C:SM book - as prefixes, as a stand-alone word, as guys' names, etc. - I think you'd realize just how little room you have to maneuver in calling out another book. If Besty Ultrason was charging into battle inside his Ultrarhino while wielding dual Ultraswords and wearing Ultrarmor with an Ultrahalo...

Edit: Oh, and yes, Thunderwolves really are as stupid and OTT as those ideas combined.

Eyclonus wrote:I'm thinking that the whole DSing LR thing will be forgotten soon enough, not single person in the tournament metagame would try it for reasons that are obvious. While casual players might use it from time-to-time, they'll probably be tired of it after a few mishaps.

The Necron thing is just odd, easily fixed; next BA novel features 'crons as hostiles and no 'nids there to help force any kind of cooperation. Heck the Deciever can pose as the Sanguinor for the lulz.

The "Blood" thingy was just horrible. Space Wolves have that "Wolf" thingy, but if you going back to the 3rd edition codex its more a case that they venerate the wolf in the same way that certain tribal groups would venerate the bear or the jaguar. The whole 'Bloody McBlood-Gore" thing makes it seem like they have a guro/vore fetish.

Sure some of their gear is a little OP, but there are downsides, for one thing it makes BA players more likely to take cookie-cutters, and at their core they're still MEQ which means most anti-MEQ strategies will still work.

The dreads and special characters are a different matter entirely, but with the first 4 pages on characters in SM codex and the same for SW, kicking up a big fuss about OP chars is like teens rebelling in Che t-shirts, its been going on so long but people don't realize that, like how the younger Baby-Boomers wore that same shirt with that same photo at the same age back in the late 60s and 70s.

The dreads are... well I think the BA should just have had DC as an upgrade and the Furiouso dreadnought replacing the Ironclad's spot. Dreadnought spam is something that seems believable with techno-fetishist Ironhands, not the Angel-Edward wannabes with anger-management issues.

Ehh....

Infantryman wrote:Underwater Land Raiders fighting Tau with Propellers.

I liked the game better when it was sci fi, but not tongue in cheek. On the bright side, it's not devolved into a bunch of pop culture references like some games I know.

Fortunately, the main armies don't seem to have stupid crap like this, though I'm still not over Ultramar's realm being perfect worlds of perfectness.

M.

Yeah, you know when 40k was established in the RT era it was full of tongue in cheek.

Seaward wrote:Again, I just don't think the guys who play the codex with Canis Wolfborn in it can really complain about other codices with a straight face.

Oh, come one, how bad can it be?

Space Wolf Special Character Canis ("Wolf") Wolfborn, Lord of the Wolfkin, Saga of the Wolfkin, armed with Wolf Claws, wearing a Wolf Tail Talisman and a Wolftooth Necklace, is an 8-foot-tall Space Marine in Power Armour riding a giant Thunderwolf Wolf, accompanied by a Fenrisian Wolf.

Erm, OK, right, it's pretty bad. I simply can't say it with a straight face.



I could, however, search-and-replace him for the Black-and-White Space Marine riding the Black-and-White bike...

Just Dave wrote:

However, I fail to see the sense of Blood Angels having access to the heaviest standard-battle-tanks in the Imperium (Land Raiders) and chucking them out of Land Raiders at high velocity.

Wait what? BA can throw Land Raiders out of Land Raiders?

I think my personal beef with the BA codex is from more of a codex design perspective rather than a game play or fluff perspective. A lot of the options in the book seem a little too decked out for no real justification. Here are a few that caught my attention.

• Sanguinary priests giving both FC and FNP, I can understand the character maybe giving out 1 USR to the whole squad but 2 at the cost of 50 points? Also 3 priests for 1 elites slot also make them far too exploitable.
• Liturgies of blood giving Death Company the ability to re-roll to wound rolls (not sure why this was added in. To hit re-rolls + their stat line make them plenty powerful already and the fluff justification for it in the codex doesn’t sell it to me either)
• Giving a Psyker dreadnaught access to a jump pack power.
• Mephiston. Removing his inv save and the IC rule *doesn’t* balance things out. Sure he currently operates as a powerful glass cannon type SC but that doesn’t show good rules design.
• BA Vindicators having fast engines.
• DOA. Was completely unnecessary as the presence of jump pack troops/sanguinary guard troops, fast rhinos/baal preds and the red thirst pretty much enough to make the codex a fluffy BA codex. The fact that the book also has access to 99% of the vanilla marines book doesn’t sit well with me.
• DS Landraiders. Too crazy and seems to have been added for no reason other than rule of cool”

-75 points to give them Jump Packs, 85 to make them Bikers. They're single-wound Independent Characters (*must* react to a melee first and can be singled out).
-They have a powerful statline. Rage really does them in though. They're the Blood Angel equivalent of Vampire Count Blood Knights in 7th ed, powerful but expensive to tool up, and vulnerable to baiting/kiting.
-So? It's not like this Dreadnought in question has access to any Melta weapons to truly use this advantage. There are no Epistolary Librarians, so you'd be paying a good extra 50 points and sacrificing all upgrade options, just for extra movement, or the ability to get a stronger force-weapon. It's completely fair.
-Maybe he was designed *as* a glass cannon character one, especially with his Land-raider cost?
-Actually yes, it makes a deepstrike army actually viable, beyond "Line up all my men on the table, CHARGE!". It gives some ability alongside with Blood Lance to mitigate castles, making for the equivalent of a Daemon army that actually *works*.
-Vindicators competing with both Preds and Dreads, which are more important to a functioning BA army. Besides, the biggest problem with a Vindicator is "AV 13 on turn 1, AV 11 afterwards," as well as one-gun syndrome.
-You say Rule of Cool as though it's a bad thing...

Why are the new Blood Angels more Khorne than Chaos?

Remember 3rd Ed Chaos Codex - Khorne Characters used to buy an upgrade "Feel no pain" instead of Nurgle ones, and Furious Charge was also.


The Feel no pain-madness nowaday makes me sick... remember the 3rd or 3.5 Ed Codexes....
Nartheticum was (from my point of view) never as usefull as FNP ( 1 passed FNP for whole unit compared to 50% Chance for every wound the unit suffers...)
only Death Company (which was fluffy, in a way), Khorne Chars (same here), Dark Eldar Grotesques (FAQ'd, fluffy), Necrons (face it, WBB is! FNP with added bonuses...)....

H.B.M.C. wrote:Or Typhus, the Herald of Nurgle, who's out toughed by a Blood Angel.

Exactly.

Tougher than Nurgle Marines

More attacks than Khornate Marines

Quicker than Slaanesh Marines

Their very own Demon Prince of Tzeentch (Meph)

This is why the next version of CSM is going to be Off the Mutha F'ing Chain! Because GW MUST give a reason for Chaos players to use the Chaos dex instead off waffling between BA and SW.

Deuce11 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Or Typhus, the Herald of Nurgle, who's out toughed by a Blood Angel.

Exactly.

Tougher than Nurgle Marines

More attacks than Khornate Marines

Quicker than Slaanesh Marines

Their very own Demon Prince of Tzeentch (Meph)

This is why the next version of CSM is going to be Off the Mutha F'ing Chain! Because GW MUST give a reason for Chaos players to use the Chaos dex instead off waffling between BA and SW.

Or just a 'replace blood/ angels with Khorne' rewrite, with the three other gods sprinkled in.

I like the dex in so much as... its balanced for the most part. Yeah, mephiston is a little over the top, and DS landraiders is kind of a meh idea. But the rest seems ok.

Now, the fluff on the other hand... was way blown out of proportion like many have pointed out.

Space Wolves was an awesome dex; the fluff was pretty awesome, the dex was definitely space wolfy... but it was overpowered and didn't seem to be playtested that well.

I agree, BA has its issues, but overall I think they're ok. Hopefully when Dark Angels and they Grey Knights get their love GW learns from their mistakes, makes a balanced dex with fluff that fits and isn't overblown, and I'll be content. Same with 'Crons.

SaintHazard wrote:Irony rears its ugly head once again, with a silly grin on its face, tongue hanging out one side of its equine muzzle. Across the winds, the cries of a thousand logicians may be heard, as they suddenly feel a stabbing pain in their chest - unknowing of its origin... knowing only that somewhere, somehow, logic is being raped.

That is so sigg'd.

Zid wrote:I like the dex in so much as... its balanced for the most part. Yeah, mephiston is a little over the top, and DS landraiders is kind of a meh idea. But the rest seems ok.

Now, the fluff on the other hand... was way blown out of proportion like many have pointed out.

I agree completly.

The BA, Tyranid and, to a degree, SW codices were probably an attempt by 3 separate writers to prove that ''my codex is better than yours!''.

I don't see why people complain about the RULES in the Blood Angels codex. Yes, they get most of what SM do, this is true. But there are builds that are just not viable for them that SM get, and they have many features that make them unique and interesting.

Seriously, I'm pretty sure nothing in the codex matches the absurdity that is Long Fangs and TWC. Long fangs... really? 140 points for 5 missile launchers when you can get a dev squad with 4 for 10 more... and the dev squad can't split fire?

Infantryman wrote:Underwater Land Raiders fighting Tau with Propellers.

I liked the game better when it was sci fi, but not tongue in cheek. On the bright side, it's not devolved into a bunch of pop culture references like some games I know.

Fortunately, the main armies don't seem to have stupid crap like this, though I'm still not over Ultramar's realm being perfect worlds of perfectness.

M.

Has 40K ever not been tongue in cheek?

The clues are everywhere.

An SM leader named for a notorious homosexual poet. Another one, the strictest of all of them, called "Robot". SMs themed for vampires and werewolves, when that Vampire vs Werewolf RPG became so popular.

Red Wunz Go Fasta!

Chaos.

I know I've never been able to take it seriously, I can only play by embracing the ridiculosity.

I expect it depends on your point of view.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Has 40K ever not been tongue in cheek?

The clues are everywhere.

An SM leader named for a notorious homosexual poet. Another one, the strictest of all of them, called "Robot". SMs themed for vampires and werewolves, when that Vampire vs Werewolf RPG became so popular.

Red Wunz Go Fasta!

Chaos.

I know I've never been able to take it seriously, I can only play by embracing the ridiculosity.

I expect it depends on your point of view.

They seem to be making a conscious effort to get away from the "LOL Fantasy Battles in space let's make it the funneh" motivation, though.

Seaward wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Has 40K ever not been tongue in cheek?

The clues are everywhere.

An SM leader named for a notorious homosexual poet. Another one, the strictest of all of them, called "Robot". SMs themed for vampires and werewolves, when that Vampire vs Werewolf RPG became so popular.

Red Wunz Go Fasta!

Chaos.

I know I've never been able to take it seriously, I can only play by embracing the ridiculosity.

I expect it depends on your point of view.

They seem to be making a conscious effort to get away from the "LOL Fantasy Battles in space let's make it the funneh" motivation, though.

I don't know about that, but maybe they're just being more subtle, for instance after just having looked at the Space Wolves codex I noticed a reference to the comedians Morecambe and Wise. In the names of the great company captains, I think.

Kilkrazy wrote:Has 40K ever not been tongue in cheek?

For a very long time KK. They made the actual conscious decision to steer themselves away from the ComedyHammer of 1st and 2nd Ed and more towards the GRIMDARK-ness of 3rd and beyond.