So I was having a conversation about Njal rulebreaker and his major flaws with a buddy of mine. This buddy seems more of a "RAW-dogger" (pardon the obscenity) then GWAR, which is not a bad thing, but due to his "strict word by word" rulings, he brought up a VERY interesting point that I felt could use some debate here...

What is Njal's "Runic Terminator Armor".

Is it "Terminator Armor", "Runic Armor", or something new and different! Meaning, as the codex states nothing more then it "Confers a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invul save" does that mean that it ALSO counts at TERMINATOR armor for EVERYTHING else that would act as an inhibitor. For example, does it make Njal count as two models when embarked in a transport, does it prohibit Njal from riding in Rhinos/Razorbacks and does it prevent Njal from making a Sweeping Advance in close combat?

I don't think it shoud (not count as termi armor for all other reasons) I was just wondering if there was any concrete evidence on why it would count as normal terminator armor.

I seem to recall the gist of it is that RAW it doesn't count as Terminator Armour as nowhere does Runic Terminator Armour count as Terminator Armour...

I think it's fairly obvious that the intent is for it to count as Terminator Armour with an enhanced invulnerable save...

But by the RAW, yes, the entry doesn't specify that it follows the same rules as normal Terminator armour. It simply states that he has a specific armour and invulnerable save as a result of his ability to ensorcel Terminator armour.

I would play it as terminator armour, personally. Discuss it with your opponent if in doubt.

insaniak wrote:
I would play it as terminator armour, personally. Discuss it with your opponent if in doubt.

I agree, and this is actually how it came up, as I said "Njal wouldn't be so bad if you could stick him in a transport for safety" and he said "Stick him in a rhino so his ability still works"

I am just hoping for a bit more justification for "Na-uh" when telliing him to bugger off.

There really isn't any justification beyond the 'Runic Terminator Armour' title.

Miraclefish, one could argue semantics on that point; GW uses Terminator as a descriptor since "Terminator armour" is written just so without capitalization on the a in armour. The rules for "Terminator Armour" states that a model wearing Terminator armour has a 2+ save etc. and that a model in "Terminator armour count as two models".

I'm not saying there's a concrete and final solution, but a possible argument.

We knew he'd be back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, he's already playable. Don't use him until you're in a winning position... then argue over his rules in an orgy of activation until the clock runs out. He's a must for tournament players.

Ordo Dakka wrote:
Also, he's already playable. Don't use him until you're in a winning position... then argue over his rules in an orgy of activation until the clock runs out. He's a must for tournament players.

I want to nominate you for "Win" of the year

insaniak wrote:There really isn't any justification beyond the 'Runic Terminator Armour' title.

Are Storm Bolters also Bolters? What about Heavy Bolters? I know this argument is used at every opportunity, but it applies. Runic Terminator Armour is not necessarily Terminator Armour, else Storm Bolters could use specialized ammunition.

So I don't see any argument at all that Njal's Runic Terminator Armour is Terminator Armour.

However, a house rule to make it so would not go amiss. I can't imagine the intent was for a regular Terminator to not be able to fit in a Rhino, but for Njal to fit just fine.

SaintHazard wrote:

insaniak wrote:There really isn't any justification beyond the 'Runic Terminator Armour' title.

Are Storm Bolters also Bolters? What about Heavy Bolters? I know this argument is used at every opportunity, but it applies. Runic Terminator Armour is not necessarily Terminator Armour, else Storm Bolters could use specialized ammunition.

So I don't see any argument at all that Njal's Runic Terminator Armour is Terminator Armour.

However, a house rule to make it so would not go amiss. I can't imagine the intent was for a regular Terminator to not be able to fit in a Rhino, but for Njal to fit just fine.

In the grim darkness of fifth edition, there is only RAW.

And lets not forget that not only does Njal have super magical Terminator Armour that can embark on Rhinos and Sweeping Advance, he also is the only person in the entire Galaxy who knows how to hold a Bolt Pistol when in said armour.

That fact alone suggests that they intended for it to not have the Drawbacks of Terminator Armour, but I digress...

To confirm: RaW, it is NOT Terminator Armour and does NOT follow ANY of the rules for Terminator Armour. This includes the prohibition on embarking on Rhino-based transports and the disallowing of Sweeping Advance.

Ordo Dakka wrote:In the grim darkness of fifth edition, there is only RAW.

Or, more accurately, "in the grim darkness of YMDC, there is only RAW, because that's what the damn forum is for?"

With a side of "how you would play it," of course.

So, instead of spamming/complaining, you could contribute.

It's a thing you can do, RAW!

I was just making a joke, i'd like to think i'm pretty RAW myself. I'm so RAW I get calluses from it. I'm more RAW than motherless.com. I'm so RAW, in fact, that people often try to stick me back on the grill before I tell them that RAW means RAW!

Seriously though, I agree with you. Especially about the rhino-flamer issue in the other thread. I don't even think they should be able to fire from the hatch if we go by "true to the fluff", it's fething ridiculous.

SaintHazard wrote:

Ordo Dakka wrote:In the grim darkness of fifth edition, there is only RAW.

Or, more accurately, "in the grim darkness of YMDC, there is only RAW, because that's what the damn forum is for?"

YMDC is for discussing the rules. That doesn't only include RAW, but also covers how people actually play the game.

Discussing only RAW in situations where the RAW is plainly absurd is pointless.

SaintHazard wrote:

insaniak wrote:There really isn't any justification beyond the 'Runic Terminator Armour' title.

Are Storm Bolters also Bolters? What about Heavy Bolters? I know this argument is used at every opportunity, but it applies. Runic Terminator Armour is not necessarily Terminator Armour, else Storm Bolters could use specialized ammunition.

So I don't see any argument at all that Njal's Runic Terminator Armour is Terminator Armour.

However, a house rule to make it so would not go amiss. I can't imagine the intent was for a regular Terminator to not be able to fit in a Rhino, but for Njal to fit just fine.

Storm Bolters could never use specialized ammo anyways because they are not StormBoltguns.

then again technically Combi-weapons do not have any profile for the not-special weapon part as there is no "Bolter" Profile(even the Boltgun profile lacks any text, fluff or otherwise, that calls it a bolter alternatively).

P.S. Helfire rounds also specify they are fired from boltguns, and boltguns only(although they are "Bolter rounds")

insaniak wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Ordo Dakka wrote:In the grim darkness of fifth edition, there is only RAW.

Or, more accurately, "in the grim darkness of YMDC, there is only RAW, because that's what the damn forum is for?"

YMDC is for discussing the rules. That doesn't only include RAW, but also covers how people actually play the game.

Discussing only RAW in situations where the RAW is plainly absurd is pointless.

And what gives you the right to decide what is "plainly absurd"?

Gwar! wrote:And what gives you the right to decide what is "plainly absurd"?

The same thing that gives me the right to decide whether to have another coffee, or whether to watch TV, or have a nap.

I'm a little confused as to just what point you think you're making here, Gwar.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:So I was having a conversation about Njal rulebreaker and his major flaws with a buddy of mine. This buddy seems more of a "RAW-dogger" (pardon the obscenity) then GWAR, which is not a bad thing, but due to his "strict word by word" rulings, he brought up a VERY interesting point that I felt could use some debate here...

What is Njal's "Runic Terminator Armor".

Is it "Terminator Armor", "Runic Armor", or something new and different! Meaning, as the codex states nothing more then it "Confers a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invul save" does that mean that it ALSO counts at TERMINATOR armor for EVERYTHING else that would act as an inhibitor. For example, does it make Njal count as two models when embarked in a transport, does it prohibit Njal from riding in Rhinos/Razorbacks and does it prevent Njal from making a Sweeping Advance in close combat?

I don't think it shoud (not count as termi armor for all other reasons) I was just wondering if there was any concrete evidence on why it would count as normal terminator armor.

The Key word in the entry is "TERMINATOR"

so in saying that
1: he is in a special Terminator armour.
2: He is a Rune priest so would benefit from their equipment.
3: The Njal GW model was modelled with Terminator Armour

In closing he should be in treated like any other model in terminator Armour

Im Atharius and that my $1.20

Antharius wrote:The Key word in the entry is "TERMINATOR"

so in saying that
1: he is in a special Terminator armour.
2: He is a Rune priest so would benefit from their equipment.
3: The Njal GW model was modelled with Terminator Armour

In closing he should be in treated like any other model in terminator Armour

Im Atharius and that my $1.20

Nowhere do the rules say this at all. This is like saying a Scout with a Power Weapon must have Power Armour because Power Weapon and Carapace Armour have the words "Power" and "Armour" in them.

Gwar! wrote:

Antharius wrote:The Key word in the entry is "TERMINATOR"

so in saying that
1: he is in a special Terminator armour.
2: He is a Rune priest so would benefit from their equipment.
3: The Njal GW model was modelled with Terminator Armour

In closing he should be in treated like any other model in terminator Armour

Im Atharius and that my $1.20

Nowhere do the rules say this at all. This is like saying a Scout with a Power Weapon must have Power Armour because Power Weapon and Carapace Armour have the words "Power" and "Armour" in them.

let me just get the Spacewolves Codex.

i quote from Njal Stormcaller's rules p53 under wargear:

Runic Terminator Armour
Njal alone has the skill to ensorcel suits of terminator armour. He has a 2+ armour save and a 4+ invulerable save.

Is "Terminator Armor" called "Runic Terminator Armor"?

Does "Terminator Armor" confer a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invulnerable save?

The answer to both of these questions is no. The first one is enough to tell you that "Runic Terminator Armor" is not "Terminator Armor," just like a "Heavy Bolter" is not a "Bolter," a "Land Speeder" is not a "Land Raider," and a "Power Weapon" is not a "Power Fist."

So if you can, RAW, claim Njal is wearing "Terminator Armour," then I, RAW, get to pay the points for a squadron of three Land Speeders, but they're all AV 14 on all sides, have two twin-linked lascannons, and a twin-linked heavy bolter. Oh, and they can carry 12 models and have assault ramps. Furthermore, I'm going to field a unit of 5 Terminators all with Heavy Bolters, because Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter both have the word "Bolter" in them. Hell, while I'm at it, I'm gonna go ahead and give them all Runic Terminator Armour! Because by your logic, that's how wargear works.

Runic Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour, RAW.

If you want to house-rule it so that it is, go wild - but recognize that that's all it is - a house rule.

SaintHazard wrote:Is "Terminator Armor" called "Runic Terminator Armor"?

Does "Terminator Armor" confer a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invulnerable save?

The answer to both of these questions is no. The first one is enough to tell you that "Runic Terminator Armor" is not "Terminator Armor," just like a "Heavy Bolter" is not a "Bolter," a "Land Speeder" is not a "Land Raider," and a "Power Weapon" is not a "Power Fist."

So if you can, RAW, claim Njal is wearing "Terminator Armour," then I, RAW, get to pay the points for a squadron of three Land Speeders, but they're all AV 14 on all sides, have two twin-linked lascannons, and a twin-linked heavy bolter. Oh, and they can carry 12 models and have assault ramps. Furthermore, I'm going to field a unit of 5 Terminators all with Heavy Bolters, because Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter both have the word "Bolter" in them. Hell, while I'm at it, I'm gonna go ahead and give them all Runic Terminator Armour! Because by your logic, that's how wargear works.

Runic Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour, RAW.

If you want to house-rule it so that it is, go wild - but recognize that that's all it is - a house rule.

Acually if i want to contradict what i said just then he has both runic armour and runic terminator armour for a extra 25 pts.

normal terminator has a 5+ but Njals Runic Terminator give him a 4+ so technically every one is right and wrong if you want to be difficult pick up the codex like i have and read his rules.

Wow, it is pretty clear that it is Terminator armor. Albeit a "special" suit of terminator armor.

It is described as Terminator armor in it's rules, description, and army entry.

Gwar! wrote:And lets not forget that not only does Njal have super magical Terminator Armour that can embark on Rhinos and Sweeping Advance, he also is the only person in the entire Galaxy who knows how to hold a Bolt Pistol when in said armour.

On a tangent, vanilla marine librarians can take terminator armor and bolt pistols, thus giving them +1A even when in a terminator armor. I just played against 1 today.

yes that is true and Njal can also wield a bolt pistol in terminator armour because he has set wargear with the exception of being taken in runic terminator armour

jy2 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And lets not forget that not only does Njal have super magical Terminator Armour that can embark on Rhinos and Sweeping Advance, he also is the only person in the entire Galaxy who knows how to hold a Bolt Pistol when in said armour.

On a tangent, vanilla marine librarians can take terminator armor and bolt pistols, thus giving them +1A even when in a terminator armor. I just played against 1 today.

Then you played against an illegal Librarian.

Librarians may take a bolt pistol OR a boltgun. In order to take Terminator Armour, they "replace power armour, boltgun, frag and krak grenades"

In order to replace a boltgun, they have to have a boltgun, and therefore cannot have a bolt pistol, since they cannot have both at the same time.

There's no way for a Vanilla Librarian to take TDA and a bolt pistol.

jy2 wrote:On a tangent, vanilla marine librarians can take terminator armor and bolt pistols, thus giving them +1A even when in a terminator armor. I just played against 1 today.

Nope, not legal.
They have the option to take a boltgun or bolt pistol.
In order to upgrade to Terminator armour, one of the things they have to 'trade in' is a boltgun.
In order to have a boltgun to trade, they had to take it instead of the pistol.

So no way to have a bolt pistol on a vanilla Librarian.

Antharius wrote:
let me just get the Spacewolves Codex.

i quote from Njal Stormcaller's rules p53 under wargear:

Runic Terminator Armour
Njal alone has the skill to ensorcel suits of terminator armour. He has a 2+ armour save and a 4+ invulerable save.

Correct. It is Terminator Armor. This description tells you that it is. Njal has "ensorcel[ed]" it with a better invul. So it is terminator armor with the above save. Any other reading is nonsense. In fact it is not "rules lawyering" to advocate the opposing position in this case; it is "rules lying."

Except that fluff /= rules, and never has?

SaintHazard wrote:
Librarians may take a bolt pistol OR a boltgun. In order to take Terminator Armour, they "replace power armour, boltgun, frag and krak grenades"

In order to replace a boltgun, they have to have a boltgun, and therefore cannot have a bolt pistol, since they cannot have both at the same time.

There's no way for a Vanilla Librarian to take TDA and a bolt pistol.

That's what I told him also....that he can't do that. His stance was that they have to replace it if they had it. Since he didn't have a boltgun (only the bolt pistol), only the other equipment got replaced by terminator armor.

So I just let it go rather than argue with him. It's only 1 extra attack.


On another tangent, he didn't let me cast Boon of Mutation onto Vulkan who was locked in combat.

I can't wait to also put my Space Marine Captain on a bike with an entire honour guard on bikes and then embark in a Land Raider too! Hey, it's RAW.

puma713 wrote:I can't wait to also put my Space Marine Captain on a bike with an entire honour guard on bikes and then embark in a Land Raider too! Hey, it's RAW.

Sorry, that's a no go. Only infantry can embark on transports. Bikes aren't infantry.

has anyone heard of common sence? or does everyone like exploiting little written mistakes in the rules?

jy2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:I can't wait to also put my Space Marine Captain on a bike with an entire honour guard on bikes and then embark in a Land Raider too! Hey, it's RAW.

Sorry, that's a no go. Only infantry can embark on transports. Bikes aren't infantry.

To be very specific, Type: Infantry are the only ones that can embark in transports. Now if you could just show me the line in the rulebook where it says that taking a bike changes your unit type from Infantry to Bike, then you'll be right.

I've heard of common sense...

What's this "sence" you speak of?

/Also, blind RAW is useless for rules discussions.
//It's Terminator armor.
///This is why GW hates writing FAQs, because they have to deal with an inundation of... "special" questions like this.

Antharius wrote:has anyone heard of common sence? or does everyone like exploiting little written mistakes in the rules?

My point was to show how ridiculous RAW arguments are. It's fairly obvious that bikes weren't meant to ride in transports, but RAW, it is legal.

First time to YMDC?

Or we could save the tangential rules discussions for their own threads.

Players are free to make up their own minds as to when RAW is and is not applied in their games. We don't need to have a discussion of every single odd RAW situation here... there's already another thread for that

This is the real first time using a full on forum that isnt my club forum and there isnt hardcore like this.

insaniak wrote:

Players are free to make up their own minds as to when RAW is and is not applied in their games.

True. However, RAW purists often paint a picture that if you're not playing it that way, then you're not playing by the rules. That if you apply logic. . .*ahem*. . .sorry - RAI to the situation, that you're somehow making up your own rules, not trying to discern the meaning behind the sentences written.

That is why I gave the bike example. It is obvious that taking a bike not changing your unit type is an oversight. However, it is still RAW sans logic. RAW purists will say you're breaking the rules because you're not letting your opponent embark on transports. People that use logic and apply it to the RAW will say that embarking bikes on transports is just as much against the logic of the rules.

It applies to the Njal situation as well.

SaintHazard wrote:Except that fluff /= rules, and never has?

The "comprehension" part of "reading comprehension" is what requires the hard info to be read in context with what is sometimes considered fluff. GW is not publishing logic games for the players to decode. The books are written to keep the reader engaged. Surely they could be more explicit but its not always necessary.

Hey, play as you will. I would have no part in treating the armor as anything but terminator armor with a better save.

can explain to me how it applies to Njal?

puma713 wrote:My point was to show how ridiculous RAW arguments are. It's fairly obvious that bikes weren't meant to ride in transports, but RAW, it is legal.

RAW, in itself, isn't ridiculous. RAW is what tells us how Rapid Fire weapons work, how far models can move in when charging into combat, and the front armour value of the Leman Russ. It's what the game is made of.

RAW as the sole basis of rules discussion does indeed lead to ridiculous places at times... but what constitutes 'ridiculous' is very often down to personal opinion. An interpretation that you find ridiculous might seem perfectly sensible to someone else.

It would be nice if people (those for strict RAW, those against it, and those barking their shins on the fence) could all keep that in mind when discussing the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:True. However, RAW purists often paint a picture that if you're not playing it that way, then you're not playing by the rules. That if you apply logic. . .*ahem*. . .sorry - RAI to the situation, that you're somehow making up your own rules, not trying to discern the meaning behind the sentences written.

And they would be correct. If you're not playing by the rules as written, you're not playing by the rules.

What people from both sides of the argument tend to overlook is that this isn't actually a problem. If both players are happy with how they are playing the game, it quite simply doesn't matter whether they're playing by the actual rules, or by their own interpretation of what makes the rules 'better'...

insaniak wrote:

puma713 wrote:My point was to show how ridiculous RAW arguments are. It's fairly obvious that bikes weren't meant to ride in transports, but RAW, it is legal.

RAW, in itself, isn't ridiculous. RAW is what tells us how Rapid Fire weapons work, how far models can move in when charging into combat, and the front armour value of the Leman Russ. It's what the game is made of.

RAW as the sole basis of rules discussion does indeed lead to ridiculous places at times... but what constitutes 'ridiculous' is very often down to personal opinion. An interpretation that you find ridiculous might seem perfectly sensible to someone else.

It would be nice if people (those for strict RAW, those against it, and those barking their shins on the fence) could all keep that in mind when discussing the rules.

True, true. I guess when you use the acronym RAW, it is used to convey the negative connotation that it usually accompanies. When you're talking about RAW, you're generally not talking about moving 6", because it is written plainly. You're most often talking about ambiguous situations that can be twisted and misconstrued depending on the point-of-view of the reader.

Antharius wrote:can explain to me how it applies to Njal?

The bike example applies to Njal in this way: Unit Type: Bikes don't ride in transports. However, an infantry model taking a bike doesn't change their unit type from Infantry to Bike. Since Unit Type: Bikes can't ride in transports, it was most likely an oversight and bikes (whether taken from infantry or not) shouldn't be allowed to ride in transports. With the Njal example, it is Runic Terminator Armour. It is terminator armour and as such, should follow the rules for terminator armour. Describing it with an adjective does not make it not-terminator-armour and it was probably an oversight on the part of GW not to further define it.

And the Storm Bolter/Heavy Bolter argument doesn't really work, because they are two weapons with two very clear profiles. "Is a storm bolter the same thing as a heavy bolter?" No - because there is a clear definition of both and there is no such thing as a "bolter" subset. There is a Terminator Armour subset of which Runic Terminator Armour is a part of. There are no rules nor a profile for a Bolter (except in the Witchhunter and Daemonhunter codices - and even those were changed in the rulebook for 5th Edition. But it doesn't even matter - what one codex says doesn't apply to the game as a whole.) There is a Boltgun.

It is Terminator Armor. People who like to argue for the sake of arguing are obviously and plainly absurd. It's almost like trolling, or just is. RAW is only good for ambiguous situations, when you follow it to extremes like this you are a fanatic. Please stop hurting the game.

- And while we're at it, let's steer away from personal attacks, mkay? Ta, tha mngmnt -

Shinkaze wrote: It is Terminator Armor.

Where does it say it's 'Terminator Armour' exactly?

@ChrisCP: Getting you on a technicality here it says 'Terminator Armour' in Runic 'Terminator Armour' lol.

Has anyone ever thought

Runic Terminator Armour
Njal alone has the skill to ensorcel suits of terminator armour. He has a 2+ armour save and a 4+ invulerable save.

Wait a minute he can ensorcel them? Maybe he is that god damn good at doing this that it removes all the drawbacks of Termi Armour and therefore is not noted as being 'Terminator Armour' for that reason as it is no longer 'Terminator Armour' it is "Runic Terminator Armour".

Maybe just maybe? It is something to chew over.

ChrisCP wrote:

Shinkaze wrote: It is Terminator Armor.

Where does it say it's 'Terminator Armour' exactly?

Right after Runic.

puma713 wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Shinkaze wrote: It is Terminator Armor.

Where does it say it's 'Terminator Armour' exactly?

Right after Runic.

Everyone saw that answer coming. You got him on a technicality there.
Word the question better next time especially when people are taking it so seriously and "As written" even though we know what you where implying.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod130011a

How about the WYSIWYG rules that would not allow you to play the official GW model without representing this armour as terminator armour?

Can everyone just look at the picture and let this argument die?

Fearspect wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod130011a

How about the WYSIWYG rules that would not allow you to play the official GW model without representing this armour as terminator armour?

Can everyone just look at the picture and let this argument die?

I see Ruinic terminator armour here. It resembles Terminator Armour though, but that means nothing rules wise sadly.
(to be honest I think they meant for him to be under the same rules as terminator armour -with his added rule, but fethed up the rules for him)

Yes you are all so busy being clever none looked into the 'why' of the question The follow through is, does that term 'Terminator Armor' exist as a wargear entry for Njal?

No, I guess you were so busy being clever you forget to read the thread?

It is Terminator Armour with runes on it that give a 4+ invulnerable.

GW has already demonstrated a mechanic where they can give 2+/3++ armour on a model without transport restrictions named Vulkan (giving him artificer armour and a counts as storm shield).

Ordo Dakka wrote:No, I guess you were so busy being clever you forget to read the thread?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Is it "Terminator Armor", "Runic Armor", or something new and different! Meaning, as the codex states nothing more then it "Confers a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invul save" does that mean that it ALSO counts at TERMINATOR armor for EVERYTHING else that would act as an inhibitor. For example, does it make Njal count as two models when embarked in a transport, does it prohibit Njal from riding in Rhinos/Razorbacks and does it prevent Njal from making a Sweeping Advance in close combat?

ChrisCP wrote:Yes you are all so busy being clever none looked into the 'why' of the question The follow through is, does that term 'Terminator Armour' exist as a Wargear entry for Njal?

I can't see the point you were making with that aside, care to clarify it or don't you have access to the SW codex? If you do, look at his Wargear entry in the army list and his profile (pages 82 & 53), if you don't here's the scoop. It lists "Runic Armour" no mention of terminator armour, nor using the rules for terminator armour or even an implication that he actually wears the damn stuff, or that it's the armour conferring the saves for that matter.

I'd love it if people actually read a thread before posting nonsense.

To the "it says 'Terminator Armour' right after 'Runic' crowd," don't get excited, you didn't get anyone on a technicality, you're just wrong.

Like I said ten billion million times in the thread already - if "Runic Terminator Armour" is "Terminator Armour" because it says "Terminator Armour" after "Runic," then are my "Storm Bolters" actually "Heavy Bolters," because it says "Bolter" after "Storm?" Do all of my Storm Bolters now fire 3 S5 AP4 shots?

Except Runic is an adjective describing the armour, and your bolter examples (you love going to these bizarre extremes a lot, don't you?) have associated stats already. If the rules aren't laid out, default to what you know.

???
You're making an assumption then, and, I'll quote to you what I told MGS.

ChrisCP wrote:...it is a fallacy when one assumes a positive in the absence of confirmation. To do so borders on the presumptuous. The only course to take is to say 'No it isn't.' to do otherwise would allow for a black cat to be white ('I have a black pussy in the other room') and other such sillinesses, because one has assumed in the absence of evidence...

There is no need to quote the purpose of the scientific method, and it is way out of scope with what we are talking about here: a simple rule.

SaintHazard wrote:Like I said ten billion million times in the thread already - if "Runic Terminator Armour" is "Terminator Armour" because it says "Terminator Armour" after "Runic," then are my "Storm Bolters" actually "Heavy Bolters," because it says "Bolter" after "Storm?"

No. but using the same logic, 'Storm Heavy Bolters' would be.

You all seem to be forgetting the major point of

Terminator armor = Wargear (Specifically Armor)

Runic Terminator Armor = Special Rule/ Special Wargear

Nightwing and Staff of the Storm Caller are also Special Rule/Special wargear which specifically state that they follow the rules for the normal wargear (Staff of Stormcaller = Runic Weapon and Nightwing = Chooser of the slain respectively)

Does anyone want to try explaining why the "Runic Terminator Armor" Specifically leaves out this imporant point (meaning, Runic Terminator Armor acts exactally like Terminator armor but with a 4+ invul instead of 5+). I mean, if you look throughout the codex, this is really the only situation where it isnt clear (see Foehammer, Anvil Shield, and the Axe Morkai for details)

Just a thought...

As DAR just said, that's why I posted that. We have established it doesn't say he has Terminator Armour, he has Runic Terminator Armour. Sure doesn't seem like there's an issue here. Play RAW or play with your own rules, that's cool, but it isn't the purpose of this thread.

RAW it is not Terminator Armor, it is a piece of wargear similar to his staff (which it specifically states counts as a Runic Weapon).

Deuce11 wrote:

Antharius wrote:
let me just get the Spacewolves Codex.

i quote from Njal Stormcaller's rules p53 under wargear:

Runic Terminator Armour
Njal alone has the skill to ensorcel suits of terminator armour. He has a 2+ armour save and a 4+ invulerable save.

Correct. It is Terminator Armor. This description tells you that it is. Njal has "ensorcel[ed]" it with a better invul. So it is terminator armor with the above save. Any other reading is nonsense. In fact it is not "rules lawyering" to advocate the opposing position in this case; it is "rules lying."

Nope. The first part is story but contains no rules. The second part contains rules.

For a similar thing look up Pathfinder Locator Beacon in the Tau Coxex. It says:

"Pathfinder Devilfish have a marker beacon which allows Battlesuits to land with a greater degree of accuracy. Tau units arriving via Deep Strike may choose to re-roll the scatter dice, however if they do you must accept the second result."

I had a RAW player complain to a judge that 'it says only Battlesuits can do this and he's trying to use it with Gun Drones..."

Even though it states "Battlesuits" in the fluff and "Tau units" in the rules.

You were performing a legal action by rerolling your scatter die for the drones.

(Why you were running a unit of Gun Drones is still beyond me, but that's an issue for Tactics, not YMDC )

Ordo Dakka wrote:We have established it doesn't say he has Terminator Armour, he has Runic Terminator Armour. Sure doesn't seem like there's an issue here. Play RAW or play with your own rules, that's cool, but it isn't the purpose of this thread.

Exactally,

I agree that it SHOULD count as terminator armor (for balancing purposes) my major question of the thread was simply "Is there any other justification other then "Balancing purposes" to say why it SHOULD count as Termi armor (for instance, an FAQ ruling, somewhere in the Main Rulebook/Codex that specifically states this that I may be missing, or some other RULE BASED justification...)

SaintHazard wrote:Even though it states "Battlesuits" in the fluff and "Tau units" in the rules.

You were performing a legal action by rerolling your scatter die for the drones.

(Why you were running a unit of Gun Drones is still beyond me, but that's an issue for Tactics, not YMDC )

My friend complained about my Battlesuits apparently being 'unfair' so I offered to beat him with an army made up of Vespid, Stealth Suits, footslogging Fire Warriors and Gun Drones. Oh and I picked three Sky Ray as heavy support... haha I won but only just!

Seems like it's not terminator armour as it has it's own name and rules, I'd have to let the opponent mount him up in a transport if he really wanted Ensorcelled FTW.

Also I think RAW should be a banned phrase, it's quite clearly Rules As Interpreted. Just because it's written down and someone interprets it one way doesn't mean that's the way it is (I WISH it was then my goddamned Contract Law exam in 2 months would be a hell of a lot easier).

SaintHazard wrote:

Like I said ten billion million times in the thread already - if "Runic Terminator Armour" is "Terminator Armour" because it says "Terminator Armour" after "Runic," then are my "Storm Bolters" actually "Heavy Bolters," because it says "Bolter" after "Storm?" Do all of my Storm Bolters now fire 3 S5 AP4 shots?

Sure. Why not? Your Storm Bolters are actually Heavy Bolters. However, they have some different rules. Instead of Str. 4 AP 5 2 shots, you fire 3 S5 AP4 shots.

Just like Runic Terminator armour is terminator armour. However, they have some different rules. Instead of 2+/5++, they're 2+/4++.

You mixed up the two bolter profiles, but I get your point.

In any case, that's not how the rules work.

puma713 wrote:

Sure. Why not? Your Storm Bolters are actually Heavy Bolters. However, they have some different rules. Instead of Str. 4 AP 5 2 shots, you fire 3 S5 AP4 shots.

Does that mean that they are Heavy instead of Assault?

On that topic, here is the entry for the storm bolter...


Based on the underlined description, you should ignore the profile provided (like you are with the "Runic terminator armor") and operate all storm bolters as firing two bolt guns (which you cannot do with a single model) so all Stormbolters now have the profile of "Range 24 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire" (You could argue that they get 2 shots at 24" and 4 shots at 12 inches because of their "modified profile" of being two bolt guns" but...) if runic terminator armor is the same as terminator armor based on its decription, then a storm bolter is actually just two bolt guns (based on its description).

DAR: It says "resembles" not "is" or "acts as" or anything like that. It is only talking about it's appearance not its functionality, which doesn't help either side of the argument.

It's a good thing descriptions aren't rules then, isn't it?

if descriptions arent rules than njal does not have a 4+ invulnerable save.

Njals invulnerable save is only granted in the description of runic terminator armor where it states that is is terminator armor that has been ensorcled.

Grakmar wrote:DAR: It says "resembles" nt "is" or "acts as" or anything like that.

Actually, you just helped the side I DONT WANT to win... as neither "is" or "Acts as" can be found in runic terminator armor...

if we are playing RAW its also worth noting that unless you are in a tourney with someone named njal, njal may never use lord of tempests because njal is a model an not a player. As such njal never has a turn.

if njal never has a turn, there is never a begining of njals turns so njal may never use lord of tempests.

Unless your playing with the njal model and your the owning players turn and your name is also njal. But the tourney organizer requires you to have your ID on the table to prove it.

blaktoof wrote:if we are playing RAW its also worth noting that unless you are in a tourney with someone named njal, njal may never use lord of tempests because njal is a model an not a player. As such njal never has a turn.

if njal never has a turn, there is never a begining of njals turns so njal may never use lord of tempests.

Unless your playing with the njal model and your the owning players turn and your name is also njal. But the tourney organizer requires you to have your ID on the table to prove it.

Well, in that case, why are you even restricted to your game? If a player named Njal 4 or 5 tables away has a turn, you can immediately use your Lord of Tempests power. And, if they are playing a faster game than you, you can certainly use his power multiple times during one of your turns


And, DAR: The side arguing for it being Terminator Armor is saying that "Runic" is just a description of a type of terminator armor, they're not saying "it looks like terminator armor therefor it is".

Ordo Dakka wrote:Play RAW or play with your own rules, that's cool, but it isn't the purpose of this thread.

RAW it is not Terminator Armor, it is a piece of wargear similar to his staff (which it specifically states counts as a Runic Weapon).

I don't understand the purpose of these threads at all. We have all established that it doesn't follow terminator armour rules by RAW. We have also put forward evidence that convinced individuals (myself included) that the armour is intended to be played as souped terminator armour, with all the rules that entails. We'll all decide for ourselves how we want to play. What's the point of the thread otherwise?

blaktoof wrote:if we are playing RAW its also worth noting that unless you are in a tourney with someone named njal, njal may never use lord of tempests because njal is a model an not a player. As such njal never has a turn.

if njal never has a turn, there is never a begining of njals turns so njal may never use lord of tempests.

Unless your playing with the njal model and your the owning players turn and your name is also njal. But the tourney organizer requires you to have your ID on the table to prove it.

Umm.. that's quite the stretch...

If you are controlling Njal, and it is your turn, would that not be Njal's turn as well? I mean, according to your outlook, you can't play Warhammer 40K (or any game for that matter) unless your name is either "Player" or "Opponent".


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Grakmar wrote:
And, DAR: The side arguing for it being Terminator Armor is saying that "Runic" is just a description of a type of terminator armor, they're not saying "it looks like terminator armor therefor it is".

I mean, based on that notion, wouldn't Lucius the Eternal's armor techinically by Artificer (and there for, he has a 2+ save?)

actually whats really funny is the njal stormcaller unit entry on p.82 of the codex which has the items you pay for when you allocate points in your army for the njal stormcaller unit

surprise surprise


doesnt even have runic terminator armor.

he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++ power armor per the space wolves codex wargear page, so njal doesnt get any of the benefits or drawbacks of runic terminator armor since RAW he doesnt have runic terminator armor, he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++

so that runic terminator armor under his entry is neat and all but he never comes with it if you purchase him to play with in an army, just good old runic armor 2+/5++ no 4++ save for njal RAW. :(

Grakmar wrote:they're not saying "it looks like terminator armor therefor it is".

Actually, they are:

Antharius wrote:3: The Njal GW model was modelled with Terminator Armour

SaintHazard wrote:

Grakmar wrote:they're not saying "it looks like terminator armor therefor it is".

Actually, they are:

Antharius wrote:3: The Njal GW model was modelled with Terminator Armour

Ah, I missed that part.

Yeah, just because something looks like something has zero impact on the rules for it.

The "Runic is just a description of the type of Terminator Armor" argument has some merit to it, but stay away from "A looks like B, therefor A is B".

blaktoof wrote:actually whats really funny is the njal stormcaller unit entry on p.82 of the codex which has the items you pay for when you allocate points in your army for the njal stormcaller unit

surprise surprise


doesnt even have runic terminator armor.

he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++ power armor per the space wolves codex wargear page, so njal doesnt get any of the benefits or drawbacks of runic terminator armor since RAW he doesnt have runic terminator armor, he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++

so that runic terminator armor under his entry is neat and all but he never comes with it if you purchase him to play with in an army, just good old runic armor 2+/5++ no 4++ save for njal RAW. :(

Look to the right, where it says you pay 25 points to replace his runic armor(and his grenades) with runic Terminator armor

Edit, he also doesn't have a 5++ he has a 5+ Invul against WOUNDS CAUSE BY PSYCHIC POWERS

I think that we can easily end this argument simple because Njal can take both power armor and a suit of TDA. ANY Space Wolves player would consider Njal's TDA as being Terminator armor and use the rules for Terminator armor when it comes to making sweeping advances and taking transports. Anything else is just manipulation of the rules. If you want to fit in Rhinos and fire out the top, take Njal for 245pts in Power Armor.

Even if you don't agree with my statement saying that I'm making a logical leap, pretty much the entire SW codex requires a logical leap to reach a playable set of units. And even the most tight-assed ultra-competitive player wouldn't have a problem with you willingly playing with the DISADVANTAGES of having Terminator armor when paying 275 for Njal.

Erik Wolfbrother wrote:I think that we can easily end this argument simple because Njal can take both power armor and a suit of TDA.

Runic armor is not powerarmor... if it were, I'd be very angry at my opponents for taking 2+ saves...

Erik Wolfbrother wrote:
ANY Space Wolves player would consider Njal's TDA as being Terminator armor and use the rules for Terminator armor when it comes to making sweeping advances and taking transports. Anything else is just manipulation of the rules.

The rules for his Runic Terminator Armor (which in no way states that it is TDA) state that he has a 2+ armor (same as his runic armor) and a 4+ invul (which is what you are paying 25 points for). Manipulating the rules would entail saying that he can't fit in rhinos nor make SA moves and counts as 2 models in a transport...

Erik Wolfbrother wrote:
Even if you don't agree with my statement saying that I'm making a logical leap, pretty much the entire SW codex requires a logical leap to reach a playable set of units. And even the most tight-assed ultra-competitive player wouldn't have a problem with you willingly playing with the DISADVANTAGES of having Terminator armor when paying 275 for Njal.

Actually, if you look at the examples listed, any other place that would require a "logical leap" (as you put it) specifically states how the thing would function... (examples: Sky claws having Blood Claw special rules, Foehammer/Staff of Stormcaller/Nightwing/Axe of Morkai ((and others)) specifically refer to their respective wargear entries, Bjorn being Venerable, etc)

For those saying that Njal has Terminator armor, and that armor is also runic(because it contains the three separate terms "Runic", "terminator", and "armor") and thus stating that it should follow all the rules for terminator armor and Runic Armor; then that would mean his 4++ save is also only applicable to wounds caused by psychic powers(just like hi regular runic armor).

Also to those quoting the beginning fluff portion of the Runic terminator Armors rules; it does not state that the Runic terminator armor that Njal is wearing is one of those "Ensorceled terminator Armors"; only that he can make them. Whether he can make them or not holds no bearing on whether or not he is wearing it; What he is wearing(via the upgrade) is a 2+/4++ suit of Armor.

Also note with the Runic Terminator Armor not being Terminator Armor he loses many of the Good points of terminator armor as well; such as being relentless.

Yes, I am aware he does not need to be relentless: but still, He's not.

For the people who cant understand the technicality mentioned.

When you ask where does it say "Terminator Armour" and they answer "Runic Terminator Armour" they are being correct as "Runic Terminator Armour" contains the words "Terminator Armour" so that is the technicality, you are asking where are these words and they have told you.

HOWEVER that does not mean that it IS Terminator Armour or has the same rules as it. Just like if you ask where does it say 'bolter' where it says 'heavy bolter' they would answer 'heavy bolter' which is correct that is where it says the word you are asking for. But as everyone and their granny has mentioned, just because it contains these words doesn't mean that it is it.

That is what happens when you ask for a word. #
RAW = It is not Terminator Armour.
However I think RAI is that it should be.

Also, don't reply to me to say I'm Dumb it is not Terminator armour. As I already know this. (this is for people who don't read full posts)

blaktoof wrote:actually whats really funny is the njal stormcaller unit entry on p.82 of the codex which has the items you pay for when you allocate points in your army for the njal stormcaller unit

surprise surprise


doesnt even have runic terminator armor.

he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++ power armor per the space wolves codex wargear page, so njal doesnt get any of the benefits or drawbacks of runic terminator armor since RAW he doesnt have runic terminator armor, he has runic armor.

which is 2+/5++

so that runic terminator armor under his entry is neat and all but he never comes with it if you purchase him to play with in an army, just good old runic armor 2+/5++ no 4++ save for njal RAW. :(

hahahaha it never ends does it?

yes on page 82 it does say he isnt equiped with runic Terminator armour but and i mean but under options and i quote:
-May replace his runic armour, frag and krak grenades with runic Terminator armour for an additional +25 points.

runic armour 2+ armour save 5++ invulnerable save against psychic attacks
terminator armour 2+ armour save 5++ invulmerable save
Runic Terminator armour 2+ armour save 4++ invulnerable save

so all that Runic Terminator Armour is terminator armour with a +1 to the invulnerable save

so can we put this debate about Njals armour to rest

Frankly; no.

Because the entire debate is the fact that the Runic terminator armor =/= terminator armor at all.

You had the first bit correct:

runic armour 2+ armour save 5++ invulnerable save against psychic attacks
terminator armour 2+ armour save 5++ invulmerable save
Runic Terminator armour 2+ armour save 4++ invulnerable save

Then you got the final answer incorrect.

All Runic terminator Armor is is an upgrade that grants Njal a 2+ armor save and a 4+ invulnerable save. That is it. It is not Terminator armor with a -1 to the invulnerable save

Rules don't work like Venn Diagrams, Antharius.

It is not Runic Armour and Terminator Armour, it is Runic Terminator Armour. That is what it says. It is an upgrade called Runic Terminator Armour. It is not an upgrade to Terminator Armour that adds +1 to the invulnerable save.

well tell that to GW that believes that it is terminator armour

And where is this stated?

Ordo Dakka wrote:And where is this stated?

I was just about to ask the same thing.

in there modelling and art work staff

Sorry I can't find that section in any rules documents.

It's... in their staff?

This isn't going anywhere productive. Both sides have made their case by this point. If in doubt, discuss it with your opponent.