I just finished reading "A Thousand Sons" and this phrase struck me.
"There are no wolves on Fenris"
I felt they strongly alluded that the wolves were "something" but I haven't quite decided what they were going for.
They used that phrase ominously, and then later when Phosis T'kan is fighting a wolf, he stared into its eyes and saw something that they don't explain.
So I thought I'd throw it up here, and see what others thought. I have my speculations and will chime in again later.
I am also getting the feeling the BL are either going to explore the lost legions, or just dance around it so it is annoying.
The thing I found most interesting in the story was
Spoiler:
when Magnus breaks through the webway and realises that the Emperor was working on making the Golden Throne a control hub of the webway. This was something that was much speculated but never confirmed before. Shame what it ends up as.
Something also to keep in mind is that Leman Russ and his Rune Priests were persecuting the Thousand Suns for sorcery, aka bartering with daemons for power.
Think about how the Space Wolf psychic powers are described, invoking the power of spirits and gods...
...the implication is that they weren't always wolves. It appears that the original settlers were genetically modified to survive on Fenris -- witness the hints about the Canis Helix, etc. -- but devolved into "wolves." And presumably the Wulfen, etc. are all tied up in this. It seems especially ironic given the SW's persecution of the 1KSons and their flesh changes.
Ok. here's the theories I came up with, from info in that book, the SW saga of Ragnar, and the old codices. I do not have the newest one.
Spoiler:
My feeling is that they are likely those who succumbed to the Wulfen curse while they were initiates on Fenris.
These devolved into the wild, and it helps to explain the size of them.
Space Marines are genetically designed to be large, so I can believe that a mutated manwolf can become much larger than normal.
The hole in this theory is the symbolism of Wolves in Fenrisian culture, and if Fenrisian Wolves are able to breed.
If the Wolves weren't there before they started making Space Marines on Fenris, where do the wolves come from.
If the wolves were always there, then I go with theory 2. That the Wulfen Curse is something that any native of Fenris has the risk of succumbing to.
In this scenario, I imagine the Canis Helix causes the Curse to appear much more frequent and worse.
This would also explain the variance in size between wolves. The smaller would of course be from the normal natives, while the ThunderWolves would be former Space Wolves.
I think what was seen in the eyes is either the feeling that they were human eyes and souls looking out. Or that it was something demonic.
I don't like the demon theory because it creates bigger issues. It also muddies the "what are Primarchs" question that the book also hinted at.
I really hope they don't end up explaining them. It already feels like they are going with they are Demon Princes created by their God, the Emperor.
I think my theories are a bit obvious and mundane. But they are the impressions I got from the material.
I was really hoping they would do something that would surprise me, and while its good stuff, very litte has made me go "whoa!".
Except that Ahriman is
Spoiler:
Terran and a twin
Automatically Appended Next Post: @gorgon
Wouldn't the persecution feed into the "hating what you are" idea?
The "Wolves" were put there by the colonising fleet of old Earth before grim-dark struck after that they must have evolved to suit the terrain and other predators which considering the fact the have trolls and kraken onFenris seems perfectly reasonable to have a wolf with fur like steel and is the size of a rhino.
It's writing with a poor regard for previous history.
It's also a reference to the unusual size and intelligence of Fenrisian wolves and tying it to the who Wulfen thing. But it also falls apart when you realize that Fenrisian wolves have packs, mate, etc.
Traitors tried to make it ominous. Realistically, Fenrisian wolves may not be wolves in the Terran sense and are something smarter and stronger. Much like SMs aren't human.
As to the sorcery thing, it's always a question of degrees. And Magnus and crew were willfully engaging warp powers in direct contravention of the Emperor's commands. It was not just Russ alarmed- Mortarion was also not a fan. Neither was the Emperor. No such objections have ever been levelled at the Rune Priests, who seem to have inbuilt protections and use only relatively minor elemental effects that they can control. that is why Librarians and their ilk were allowed, remember?
The Council of Nikea (sp) made it very clear that NO psykers were to use powers, yet the Runepriests were clearly ignoring that order.
There was also the bit where all the psykers stood together and pointed out how the Navigators used psyker powers.
The SW seemed to think they were better or different when they weren't.
A bit hypocritical, yeah?
The big bit that got me though was the reaction given when the one Son looked into a wolf's eyes and freaked. That isn't just a recognizing intelligence reaction.
it is possable that Space Wolves that fall to the curse would be able to, as much as it seems rediclous, interbreed with the Fenrisian Wolves.
these hybrids became the massive thunderwolves.
the Fenrisian Wolves are descendents of Wolves brought to Fenris by the original human settlers.
FWIW the human settlers could have simply brought the desendents of Irish Wolf Hounds, or some other large breed of dog, to Fenris(dogs are simply wolves that have been selectivly bred) and these became the Fenrisian Wolves after escaping from captivity.
skrulnik wrote:The Council of Nikea (sp) made it very clear that NO psykers were to use powers, yet the Runepriests were clearly ignoring that order. There was also the bit where all the psykers stood together and pointed out how the Navigators used psyker powers. The SW seemed to think they were better or different when they weren't.
A bit hypocritical, yeah?
Don't forget, that while Mortarion was probably the STRONGEST supporter of the Edict of Nikea, Typhus was still a practicing Librarian (and a powerful one at that) both before, and after, the council's verdict.
Hypocrasy was rampant in the Imperium after this decree (hell, the Emprah himself still dabbled in many magics, regardless of the Muggles' concerns)
without Psykers and psychic powers it would be impossable to communicate or travel accross the galaxy. Navigators couldn't pilot ships, Astropaths could transmitt messages.
Sorcery is the actual summoning of Deamonic entities to do your bidding.
Grey Templar wrote:The Council didn't outlaw Psykers.
it was sorcery that was outlawed.
without Psykers and psychic powers it would be impossable to communicate or travel accross the galaxy. Navigators couldn't pilot ships, Astropaths could transmitt messages.
Sorcery is the actual summoning of Deamonic entities to do your bidding.
I'm sorry but I (and the actual wording from the book) have to disagree...
although it seems he only banned Astartes from Sorcery.
Actually I completely agree, especially if you read the second part of his decree where he basically says
(granted I am paraphrasing)
Spoiler:
"So I know I cloned you kids to have the same wizard janks as me, but if I catch you castin magic missile on tha darkness, I'ma beat you like a Magnus the red-headed step child!"
Yeah, which is inconsistent with previous backstory and, I think, just an example of poor HH book writing. I mean these are the same lametards that reduced Fulgrim's and Horus' spiral to daemonic possession.
jmurph wrote:Yeah, which is inconsistent with previous backstory and, I think, just an example of poor HH book writing. I mean these are the same lametards that reduced Fulgrim's and Horus' spiral to daemonic possession.
The way I look at the Heresy Novels is that the "previous backstory" is the garbled propagandized Imperial version in the year 40,000.
The stories in the novels are clear, unfilitered, from the eyes of the participants accounts.
Also, they are the just one possible version of the history.
GW doesn't believe in a hard, permanent, Star Trek-like Canon.
Therefore, any problems you have with it is, IMO, a difference of opinion with where the writer's went with the story.
Fulgrim was a possession that he walked into arrogantly. As he did everything. His flaw led him there. Story works for me.
Same with what happens to Magnus. Pride before that fall and all that.
Horus' situation stricks me as more of a collaboration with the demons rather than possession.
His story seems to follow more of a slow corruption of his ideals coupled with psychological flaws.
Possible the most useful thing I learned in school was "Beware the limited first person narrator". Basically a good way of detecting misleading information is determining whether it's the perspective of a character in the story or information provided for the characters. Take "Fight Club" as an example of how this works: Edward Norton's character is oblivious to the fact that he's Tyler Durden. Similarly take "The Watchmen" where Dr. Manhattan is variously described as flaky, disconnected, and so on, when he's experiencing all the events in his bizarre new life at the same time, which is revealed to be pretty distracting when Ozymandias uses tachyon interference to interfere with his ability to localize to a particular point in time.
...the implication is that they weren't always wolves. It appears that the original settlers were genetically modified to survive on Fenris -- witness the hints about the Canis Helix, etc. -- but devolved into "wolves." And presumably the Wulfen, etc. are all tied up in this. It seems especially ironic given the SW's persecution of the 1KSons and their flesh changes.
This. I like that that it was only hinted at, rather than spelled out.
Spoiler:
This also means that the Wulfen phenomenon isn't related to the Space Wolves' gene-seed, but rather the unique population that they draw their recruits from. It makes a lot more sense than previous non-explanations for why this happens to an otherwise well-respected Astartes Chapter.
Welcome to dakkadakka! Exopheric!
But still the Wolves were pricks. And Hypocrites throughout the entire book...
Spoiler:
My biggest beef was with the Wolves. I had alot of respect for them. But they were painted like savage d--ks, who really only cared about slaughter. Which I thought angorn was the best at being! The Thousand Sons were seriously one of the most noble legions, and people loved them. They were respected, and they fought things that the imperium was going to fight anyway! Just imagine the potential if the Thousand Son's were not attacked by the Space Wolves! And the Thousand Son's fought horus? Would of the war been different? Hell yeah it would of. The There are no Wolves on Fenris i smilied at as I agreed that these wolves were not just wolves they had something more. I also believed they were cyberborg hybrids that basically can mate, but over the generations they developed skin. But Yeah I have to agree the Space Wolves Rune Priest was a jerk, and one of the biggest hypocrites i have ever seen written down in a book. As he said I use magical powers! You use Sorcery! What is the difference seriously? Isn't the definition of Sorcery a Person that Uses magic? What hypocrites, i seriously started crying because the Space Wolves were such a noble chapter after the hersey! But before they were just a group of d--ks. But still I like what Ahriman does to the Rune Priest It has to be the best way to get rid of an donkey-cave.
That makes sense considering the Wolf Brothers were an infamous disaster of a founding.
Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch to preserve his Astartes against the ravages of the Warp. Who are the gods of Fenris to whom Leman Russ turned when the curse of the Wulfen threatened to overcome his legion? Who are the spirits invoked by the psychic power descriptions in the codex?
Mortarian's obsession with multiples of 7 suggest that he was already well down the road to damnation, and drawing Nurgle's attention to him. Alpharius and Omegon promoted a critical approach to the official philosophy of the Imperium. The hypocrisy of the Great Crusade seems to be a theme.
That makes sense considering the Wolf Brothers were an infamous disaster of a founding.
Magnus made a deal with Tzeentch to preserve his Astartes against the ravages of the Warp. Who are the gods of Fenris to whom Leman Russ turned when the curse of the Wulfen threatened to overcome his legion? Who are the spirits invoked by the psychic power descriptions in the codex?
Mortarian's obsession with multiples of 7 suggest that he was already well down the road to damnation, and drawing Nurgle's attention to him. Alpharius and Omegon promoted a critical approach to the official philosophy of the Imperium. The hypocrisy of the Great Crusade seems to be a theme.
Wait that MEANS THAT BUNGIE IS WORSHIPPERS OF NURGLE!
Yeah, the Wolves were hostile from the start. They were pretty justified. They have an inherent distrust of psychic powers, which the Thousand Sons used casually. More than that they were holding up a vital crusade in a nearby system by screwing around on Aghoru while battle brothers died. It did in fact turn out to be a bad idea what with uncorking a Greater Daemon and all.
Beyond the Wolves' provincial narrowmindedness (my tribe's traditions are good medicine, yours are bad mojo) there was a real difference between Space Wolf and Thousand Sons magical practice. Though it's not spelled out until the end, the Tutelaries are definitely Daemons that had assumed a benign guise. The Thousand Sons did draw their power from the Warp through these beings. It was what let them throw as much power around as they did, and that IS sorcery. It's the forerunner of the Daemonic Pacts used by Chaos Sorcerers. Even though Ahriman & co. weren't aware of the true nature of their practices-- they were actually doing what they had been accused of.
Arguably the Edicts of Nikaea weren't the best response to the issue. However, the Emperor seemed to be attempting to starve the Chaos Powers out- creating a strictly secular state, denying them potential worshipers or any other potential conduits to influence humanity. Shutting down inquiries into psychic knowledge was a consistent choice, since it kept anyone from finding out the truth and succumbing to temptation or manipulation-- which Magnus had already done, even if he wouldn't admit it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote:
Wait that MEANS THAT BUNGIE IS WORSHIPPERS OF NURGLE!
The Gravemind wrote:"Now the gate has been unlatched, headstones pushed aside; corpses shift and offer room, a fate you must abide!"
This was probably my favorite of the HH so far, but I was never really deep into the original backstory, so the current canon works fine for me.
Spoiler:
One thing I noticed very prominently was that towards the end, when Ahriman killed the Rune Priest Wyrdmake, McNeill heavily implies that the Space Wolves do not truly understand that their power is warp-based as well. Yes, it's different in manifestation and degree of use, but I'd argue that at its core it's no different than another variety of warp power (like the various Cults).
Also, the Council of Nikea was a little wonky as far as how hypocritical it was. I can understand the Wolves, and to a certain extent Mortarion (he was a stubborn primarch that valued unyielding determination over specialization, and had a bad past with sorcery), but it seemed a bit weird that nobody really listened to the order. It appeared that most of it was simply an excuse to curb Magnus.
Oh, and when Magnus broke all the crap in the Throne room, and finally realized what the Emperor had been planning...
What's the deal with the hints linking Constantin Valdor with Horus' twisting of the Emperor's commands to Russ to rein in Magnus?
Is this new? I thought he was a straight-up guy. Or was he just acting for what he saw as the Imperium's best interests?
He may have possibly been at the Golden Throne area when Magnus stormed in and advertently destroyed and I think killed some of the mechanicus workers and Custodes who were stationed in the area. The death of his friends/subordinates, and the destruction of the Emperors great work, may have made him want to be a little bit more harsh on Magnus.
Either that, or he's on Horus's side, someone high up in the Imperial Palace let Horus know an assassin team was coming in Nemesis. I hope thats not the case, as it would be kind of cheesy.
The Chaos Gods weren't exactly being starved by the creation of a secular state. It simply concealed their true nature and gave them opportunity to subvert the Emperor's plans. A Great Crusade, a two hundred year galactic war isn't exactly inconsequential to the Lord of Battles. Perverting and subverting is what Slaanesh does, you're not going to outwit Tzeentch, and Nurgle is the essence of inevitability as the golden dream of utopia implodes.
Shadowbrand wrote:I must say I liked a Thousand sons. But I don't think the Wolves were properly portrayed.
It just seems a little off a Rune Priest would condemn Thousand Son sorcerers.
And how Russ was depicted was totally different then i imagine. He didn't even give much a second thought then to annihilate his brother.
To be fair, this will probably be rectified when the Space Wolves Horus Heresy book comes out (as has been confirmed) In that we'll probably see the noble side of the Space Wolves-and the non noble sorcery of the Thousand sons come out.
To be fair, the Thousand Sons don't really have a "non-noble" aspect to them in any way (at least as supported by fluff). Hell, the only real contradiction of this is one of Ahriman's Old quotes which stated something along the lines of "Your Imperium is stupid" which I believe has been retconned as one of his quotes from the new book states that
Spoiler:
The thousand Sons were meant to be a tragedy in nature, much like the story of Fulgrim (but not like Morty, Perty, and Angry). Even after ten-thousand years, many of the thousand sons (including their primarch) lament the fact that they are not still part of the imperium, and others (such as Ahriman) still refute that Chaos is their master!
Just because something bears resemblance to a wolf, doesnt make it one. A Koala bear is not a bear. Ilik the notion that the 'wolves' are the former colonists, having (d)evolvved to live in the harsh climes.
This thread boils down to the fact that space wolves are donkey-caves.
The Thousand Sons were seriously one of the most noble legions, and people loved them. They were respected, and they fought things that the imperium was going to fight anyway!
Actually, the Thousand Sons were despised by most other legions and people in the Imperium and labeled as "mutants" until Magnus came and changed that. They had to fight to restore any amount of honor and it's why they made sure all of the remembrancers they took with them were psykers.
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:To be fair, the Thousand Sons don't really have a "non-noble" aspect to them in any way (at least as supported by fluff).
Near the end of the book their dark side began to become apparent when we learned how far they were prepared to go in their obsession with gathering knowledge & power (example: the sacrifice of the girl, and no that wasn't unavoidable).
It is like they are your benevolent friends up until the moment they don't get their way or they have something to gain by you, and then they will use you any way that suits their purpose.
The "other side of the story", aka Prospero Burns, will probably be a very interesting read that depicts the Thousand Sons from a less favorable perspective.
That attitude to "mortals" was pretty prevalent throughout the Legions though. While even Loken was appalled by the massacre when the Warmaster was felled, he still participated in it because urgency in bringing the Warmaster to medical care was worth killing anyone that got in the way.
Grey Templar wrote:Terra was actually still a verdant green world at the time of the Great Crusade complete with animal life and living oceans.
then Horus bombed it
Horus a :beep: iduiot only an idiot WOULD BOOM ALL OF TERRA! Seriously terra is now useless!
But there are other moons around jupitier and saturn full of life. As every single planet and moon has been terraformed.
purplefood wrote:I would bomb Terra if i had been Horus... but then agin i would have ordered all my ships to ram the planet for funsies so go figure.
ramming the planet? So crash landing? I'm pretty sure that's still bombing, just not as efficient...
I'm actually having a hard time understanding the question.
So the wolves on Fenris aren't actually wolves? But descendents of colonists, but what about the actual humans on Fenris?
or is the question something else?
Maybe the wolves aren't "Wolves" as we know, but something else?
Seriously I'm lost.
blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:I'm actually having a hard time understanding the question.
So the wolves on Fenris aren't actually wolves? But descendents of colonists, but what about the actual humans on Fenris?
or is the question something else?
Maybe the wolves aren't "Wolves" as we know, but something else?
Seriously I'm lost.
Nobody knows the actual truth of the deeper meaning that quote/question may or may not have.
Everything in this thread (and especially the wolves supposedly being descendants of settlers) is pure theory made up by fans. For all we know it could just have been Magnus & the Sons' way to get on the SW's nerves.
Perhaps it will be explained more thoroughly in Prospero Burns.
Grey Templar wrote:this is more of a philosophical discussion.
Philosophy has never been my strong point, could you explain how it is philosophical?
Philosophy literaly translates to "Love of Knowledge" and the "Knowledge" in question here is the concept of "Wolves on Fenrir".
TBH tho, I'm struggling to find the reason in calling this discussion philosophical, when in reality, almost any conversation (especially in 40K backround, as the talks are for the "Love of 40K Knowledge") could/should be viewed as philosophical...
The 'newer' background (started in the 'card game' back story for the HH) for the Council of Nikea has made a mess of the story.
Originally, only Sorcery was banned, not Psykers. It made a lot of sense, and it made for a better story too.
Index Astartes wrote:
"There were those amongst the Imperial court suspicious of the Thousand Sons' methods. Paramount amongst them was Mortarion, sepulchral lord of the Death Guard who knew too well from his own dark past that sorcerous power never came without a price. Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, for whom any battle fought through sleight of hand and clever deceit was by definition dishonourable also lent his voice to the critics of the Thousand Sons. The schism grew so great that it threatened the very foundations of the new order, and so the Emperor of Man himself decreed a council to resolve the issue for all time.
The mightiest proponents of both sides convened on the planet Nikaea to debate, with the Emperor himself enthroned above the dais as arbiter, in an ancient amphitheatre that seated tens of thousands. There, beneath the glittering starlight, the witch hunters presented their case. They recited a litany of human misery inflicted upon the Emperor's own subjects by sorcerers enslaved by Chaotic monstrosities; of mutants unable to control what they had become, and despots who turned their psychic gifts to dark and selfish purpose. To speak against these charges came Magnus himself. He climbed the dais in silence, his own visage seeming to confirm everything the witch hunters asserted.
But when he began to speak, it was clear none of his accusers could match the charisma or presence of a Space Marines Primarch and least of all this particular Primarch's certainty of conviction. Magnus told the assembled throng that no knowledge was tainted of itself, and no pursuit of knowledge ever wrong so long as the seeker of that truth was master of what he learned. And, Magnus decreed with finality, there were no secrets the Thousand Sons had not mastered, no ways too labyrinthine for them to know. When he stepped from the dais, the council was divided more sharply than ever: the witch hunters had made their case collectively with great impact, but with insufficient power to blunt the persuasiveness of the Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The assemblage openly wondered if even the Emperor could decide against one of his own sons.
The tension had reached the palpable knife-edge of violence when a contingent of Space Marine Librarians approached the dais. The Emperor acknowledged them with a nod and all fell silent, for visible amongst the librarians were the chiefs of some of the greatest Legions in the Imperium. These mystic warriors formed a semicircle about the podium to indicate they spoke with one voice, but it was a young Epistolary who stepped forward to deliver their words. Though his identity has been lost to history, he is said to have spoken with a passion that bordered on ferocity, and offered to the assembled council a third alternative. A psyker, he proposed, like an athlete, was a gifted individual whose native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other Librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve Mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind.
The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. The Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation. But it was not the decision favoured by Magnus. The Grimoire Hereticus records the fateful face-to-face confrontation between father and son when the Emperor himself barred Magnus's attempt to storm from the hall in protest. He bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic. It is said the cyclopean Primarch's face appeared brittle as aged stone as he received his father's command. Brittle enough to crack, but the Primarch of the Thousand Sons bent his shoulder and pledged himself and his Legion to obey. Neither Emperor nor Primarch knew that this moment would be the last time they would meet, and that events had been set in motion that would climax in treachery, bloodshed and pain."
Now, inexplicably, everything is banned.
No idea how they are going to get out of this one...
A psyker, he proposed, like an athlete, was a gifted individual whose native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other Librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve Mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind.
The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. The Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation.
Who knows, maybe Prospero Burns will shed some light on all of this?
As well as on the "There are no Wolves on Fenris" thing too...
Alphi, I think the reason they ret-conned the "Sorcery vs Psychic powers" debate is that GW realised that they would have probably had to go into extreme depth on what constitutes "sorcery" and what constitutes "psychic power" as it really isn't too hard to say:
"Well, you say my ability to astrally project to speak to you is sorcery, but that rune priests ability to shoot lightning from his hands is ok? Or what about that blood angel librarian who sprouts magic wings and floats around like some sort of bird"
The new Edict of Nikea makes more sense, the old one seemed a bit too 'plot-holey'
when I first read through A Thousand Sons I couldn't believe the BS the space wolves were touting about the difference between sorcery and psychic powers, but after giving it some thought I actually realized the validity of their argument, yes the Thousand Sons were a psychically gifted legion and shared that with the rune priests of the space wolves and librarians of the other legions, however where they differed was the tutilaries, which eventually showed their true colors as demons and warp predators. Therein lies the difference between the Thousand Sons and everyone else, they bargained with malign intelligences later to become known as demons in order to boost their already impressive psychic powers and this proved to be their undoing. this isn't even to mention Magnus' pact with tzeetch for the lives of his sons. and as to the root of this thread I never really understood the whole "there are no wolves on Fenris", it seemed a rather vague point to me, I may just be dense lol. Though I must say I like some of the theories I've read in this thread about them being the devolved descendants of the original settlers of Fenris, or rather those who settled in Asaheim, rather than the rest of the planet who maintained most of their humanity. Seems rather feasible and I like the idea of it being another secret they harbor. I like how the Horus Heresy books have been doing this, showing the good and nobility in the chaos legions before the fall and the inherent flaws in those legions who are so vaunted and highly thought of in the 41st millenium. I like the way it makes you think how easily any of the legions really could have gone down the path to darkness through their own flaws.
In the 4th edition Codex: Chaos Space Marines book it notes that all it takes is a lapse of concentration when using psychic powers and the user will endure the cold whispers of the Warp until they die or give in (or get turned into a Warp Portal). Given that the Warp is the Chaos Gods and the Chaos Gods are the Warp, then the difference is basically what's paying attention.
Think of Office Space where they try the Superman scam, trying to defraud a company of its rounding errors. One minor "mundance detail" slip of code/invocation and you draw the notice of the Dark Powers. Sarpedon famously grows spider legs when he overloads in his duel with the Soul Drinker's Chapter Master.
Presumably the whole point of librarium or santioned training is learning how to damp down on one's powers, to learn how to use subtle powers to good effect, and to generally minimize one's warp power rather than maximize it.
well if Sarpedon maximized it, then the Sons took it to 11 lol, they were basically using Demons to to siphon even more power from the warp, I'd take the wolves side on this one.
Sure, but they didn't connect the tutelaries with malignant warp entities. Much like the Space Wolves don't connect the spirits they invoke with malignant warp entities...
well if I may cite an oft repeated mantra of the grimdark future, "ignorance is no excuse" lol, true you can look at the space wolves with criticism and the fact that they defend themselves by saying they use "earth magic" or some such nonsense is quite laughable, however the fact remains, the thousand sons are the only legion to use bonded sentient entities from the warp in order to boost their powers.
A lot of people focus on the canis helix connection to explain the "No wolves on fenris" bit, but I think thats just a smokescreen to cover for something else. The implication throughout the book is that they are warp entities. There is a point in the story where the tutelaries are "frightened" and disappear as the fenrisian wolves pass by the thousand sons. That seems to suggest something much more than humans-made-wolves to me.
A lot of people focus on the canis helix connection to explain the "No wolves on fenris" bit, but I think thats just a smokescreen to cover for something else. The implication throughout the book is that they are warp entities. There is a point in the story where the tutelaries are "frightened" and disappear as the fenrisian wolves pass by the thousand sons. That seems to suggest something much more than humans-made-wolves to me.
that's right I'd forgotten about that! a good point there, I wonder if it's something akin to the warp beasts employed by the Dark Eldar, though they do reproduce and inhabit Fenris like the rest of its flora and fauna, so they aren't really summoned or binded in any way, maybe it has something to do with ancient tyranid lineage, I mean the ordo xenos has already postulated at the krakens and whatnot being early hive fleet remnants.
Brother Heinrich wrote: however the fact remains, the thousand sons are the only legion to use bonded sentient entities from the warp in order to boost their powers.
How do you explain Freki and Gheki, or Choosers of the slain?
Gork and Mork?
Spirit stones?
Inquisitorial Familiers?
I don't think the TSons are the only ones to employ such powerboosters...
Given the presence of creatures alluded to be Tyranids on Fenris, one might imagine that the 'wolves' have something really nasty lurking behind their minds.
A lot of people focus on the canis helix connection to explain the "No wolves on fenris" bit, but I think thats just a smokescreen to cover for something else. The implication throughout the book is that they are warp entities. There is a point in the story where the tutelaries are "frightened" and disappear as the fenrisian wolves pass by the thousand sons. That seems to suggest something much more than humans-made-wolves to me.
I considered that.
I discarded it because they are not summoned and maintain a solid physical body and presumeably reproduce.
I have not seen where the lifecycle of the wolves is discussed.
Is it presumed that they have one, or has it been spelled out somewhere?
Also,
Spoiler:
How does that bode for Leman Russ and the two he keeps at heel, if they are warp entities?
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
How do you explain Freki and Gheki, or Choosers of the slain?
Gork and Mork?
Spirit stones?
Inquisitorial Familiers?
I don't think the TSons are the only ones to employ such powerboosters...
A valid point, however we're not talking about Eldar, Orks, or Radical Inquisitors, we're talking about the Thousand Sons defending their actions to the Astartes Legions and the Emperor, additionally, Gork and Mork are Gods, and yes Gods(sentient warp entities) in 40k have been known to provide power, they are however not bonded to individuals of that race, Eldar Spirit stones are exactly thats, stones containing the spirits of ancestors of their race, not malign warp entities that siphon of the raw material of chaos in order to boost psychic skills, which isn't to say that there aren't safe ways to boost psychic powers, but the root of this is once again that the sons unknowingly made pacts with demons for power, and lastly Radical inquisitors using daemonhosts or bound daemon weaponry do so knowingly, the bind themselves with pacts to evil beings for the purpose of achieving their mission. Granted I am not defending what radicals do, I am saying that they aren't ignorant of what their doing, they may be guilty of the same hubris for sure, but they're under no illusions as to what may happen if they lose control of said beings.
Nurglitch wrote:Given the presence of creatures alluded to be Tyranids on Fenris, one might imagine that the 'wolves' have something really nasty lurking behind their minds.
agreed on that number, Fenris seems to have a good many deep dark secrets, all of a sudden the Dark Angels aren't looking so bad in comparison lol
Brother Heinrich wrote: Radical inquisitors using daemonhosts or bound daemon weaponry do so knowingly, the bind themselves with pacts to evil beings for the purpose of achieving their mission.
Brother Heinrich wrote: Radical inquisitors using daemonhosts or bound daemon weaponry do so knowingly, the bind themselves with pacts to evil beings for the purpose of achieving their mission.
I was moreso referring to Cherubim...
Ahh gotcha, I'm a little rusty on my Inquisitorial knowledge, I always thought the cherubim were simply aborted baby servitors or something.
Nurglitch wrote:Given the presence of creatures alluded to be Tyranids on Fenris, one might imagine that the 'wolves' have something really nasty lurking behind their minds.
agreed on that number, Fenris seems to have a good many deep dark secrets, all of a sudden the Dark Angels aren't looking so bad in comparison lol
In the Space wolf series it is hinted that the Canis Helix binds another soul to them something "dark" and "bestial" this might explain the Curse of the Wulfen as it sounds like they are possessed... admitedly by a very low level daemon but still some sort of daemon maybe not one from one of the big 4.
Also there are mutants on Fenris.
Nurglitch wrote:Given the presence of creatures alluded to be Tyranids on Fenris, one might imagine that the 'wolves' have something really nasty lurking behind their minds.
agreed on that number, Fenris seems to have a good many deep dark secrets, all of a sudden the Dark Angels aren't looking so bad in comparison lol
In the Space wolf series it is hinted that the Canis Helix binds another soul to them something "dark" and "bestial" this might explain the Curse of the Wulfen as it sounds like they are possessed... admitedly by a very low level daemon but still some sort of daemon maybe not one from one of the big 4.
Also there are mutants on Fenris.
Damn I like the theory, a very valid point, I'd never thought of that but it definitely has some merit to it, Holy Terra the implications! an entire chapter soul bound to daemons! this will not end well...
Nurglitch wrote:Given the presence of creatures alluded to be Tyranids on Fenris, one might imagine that the 'wolves' have something really nasty lurking behind their minds.
agreed on that number, Fenris seems to have a good many deep dark secrets, all of a sudden the Dark Angels aren't looking so bad in comparison lol
In the Space wolf series it is hinted that the Canis Helix binds another soul to them something "dark" and "bestial" this might explain the Curse of the Wulfen as it sounds like they are possessed... admitedly by a very low level daemon but still some sort of daemon maybe not one from one of the big 4.
Also there are mutants on Fenris.
Damn I like the theory, a very valid point, I'd never thought of that but it definitely has some merit to it, Holy Terra the implications! an entire chapter soul bound to daemons! this will not end well...
They might be benign daemons there is apparently a lot of stories from when the Emporer visited Fenris that don't get told so he could have bound daemons into his service to p[osses the SW geneseed and then make them completly savage fighters to (as Dan Abnett says) act as a stopping force for any other legions that go rogue... of course it worked on Magnus but they can only be in 1 place at a time.
Manchu wrote:There other powers in the universe besides mortals and Warp "gods."
I know which is why is said that the hypothetical daemons may not belong to one of the big 4.
They might have been looking for refuge from them or maybe they were just gods to the locals and the Emporer 'conscripted' them.
Manchu wrote:There other powers in the universe besides mortals and Warp "gods."
I know which is why is said that the hypothetical daemons may not belong to one of the big 4.
They might have been looking for refuge from them or maybe they were just gods to the locals and the Emporer 'conscripted' them.
who knows, all I'm saying is look at the picture in the new codex of the space wolf holding up a daemons head, I can't help but notice there's a striking similarity between said space wolf and the head he's holding...
Manchu wrote:There other powers in the universe besides mortals and Warp "gods."
I know which is why is said that the hypothetical daemons may not belong to one of the big 4.
They might have been looking for refuge from them or maybe they were just gods to the locals and the Emporer 'conscripted' them.
who knows, all I'm saying is look at the picture in the new codex of the space wolf holding up a daemons head, I can't help but notice there's a striking similarity between said space wolf and the head he's holding...
Hence my theory which oddly enough seems to fit.
They get more and more feral under stress which could mean the daemon gets more and more power and changes their features to more wolfy/daemonic
All Marines, through their Primarchs, have their origins in the Emperor's sorcery-science so they're ALL warp-influenced. My theory is that the SW were literally bred to be Primarch killers, the Emperor's watchdogs. One aspect of this breeding is their intense ferocity, another is their intense loyalty (yes, including their inherent distrust of the Ecclesiarchy). And before anyone asks quis custodiet ipsos custodes, consider how successful they've been with their Second Founding. The Emperor is truly a genius.
@Nurglitch: Gork and Mork tagteamed Khorne in one story.
So? Khorne fights anything and anyone, including aspects of himself: case in point is Skarbrand the Exiled. It's like that scene in Army of Darkness where Ash fights his own hand.
True enough however, I find it surprising that he failed to prepare for the possibility of betrayal, I mean from most of the fluff the Emperor appears to be a rather detached fellow, more akin to a power hungry dictator than a loving benevolent father, and even if he was he definitely picked favorites, I mean look at Angron, talk about being daddy's least favorite. The Emperor created the Primarchs to be generals and leaders of men, not because his internal daddy clock was ticking and he decided he wanted cute little babies he could knit Aquila hats for.
Brother Heinrich wrote:True enough however, I find it surprising that he failed to prepare for the possibility of betrayal, I mean from most of the fluff the Emperor appears to be a rather detached fellow, more akin to a power hungry dictator than a loving benevolent father, and even if he was he definitely picked favorites, I mean look at Angron, talk about being daddy's least favorite.
Your saying he wasn't paranoid enough?
I think the fact he didn't have any defensive measures against the primarchs was meant to show his trust in them.
Brother Heinrich wrote:True enough however, I find it surprising that he failed to prepare for the possibility of betrayal, I mean from most of the fluff the Emperor appears to be a rather detached fellow, more akin to a power hungry dictator than a loving benevolent father, and even if he was he definitely picked favorites, I mean look at Angron, talk about being daddy's least favorite.
Your saying he wasn't paranoid enough?
I think the fact he didn't have any defensive measures against the primarchs was meant to show his trust in them.
True enough, well hindsight is 20/20 after all, too bad foresight isn't correctable with lasik surgery eh?
Personally I always thought of the "wolves" on Fenris as warp mutated beasts similar in vein to the beasts of Caliban. That could be the recognition in the Tsons eyes. The see the warp as it truly is in the connection between the "wolves" and the ether.
The tutelaries could have feared the presence of other warp entities inherent in the "wolves". All this speculation on my part however.
A lot of people focus on the canis helix connection to explain the "No wolves on fenris" bit, but I think thats just a smokescreen to cover for something else. The implication throughout the book is that they are warp entities. There is a point in the story where the tutelaries are "frightened" and disappear as the fenrisian wolves pass by the thousand sons. That seems to suggest something much more than humans-made-wolves to me.
Like the supernatural beasties on Caliban. This really never occurred to me. It would make sense, though. Not the same thing exactly, but similar in nature, connected to the warp but also material. Warp-touched is NOT totally identical with 'corrupted by the 4 Greater Gods of Chaos', by the way. They are only the most powerful and influential. There are other powers, and much of the Warp is simply raw and formless energy, which is what untainted psykers draw upon. Permit me to take a tangent...
Spoiler:
It occurs to me that many of the primarchs were drawn to planets where there was some form of Warp-touch. Lionel to Caliban with the great Beasts and tainted forests, Magnus to Prospero with the psychneuinen. Mortarion to his death-world ruled by psyker-mutants, Kurze to a night-world oppressed by crime and despair. Angron to a world that reveled in bloodsport. Arguably, Russ to Fenris and the cold spirits, and Sanguinius to Baal with its suggestive history of cannibalism and madness. This might seem to be only natural, since the primarchs were partly made from Warp-stuff themselves
Each was shaped by the unique nature of the world they were raised on, ancient places haunted by spirits and gods of their own. Not all spirit creatures need be thoroughly malign, though. Like the Dark Angels with the Watchers in the Dark, some may have come to an accommodation with the human settlers, as with the old gods and place-spirits on Earth. Being partly of the material realm, they are not necessarily so inimical as Daemons, though related in nature. Thus, the gods and ancestor spirits of Fenris.
Pure abstraction, of course. I would be surprised if it is ever explained, or if the official explanation would resemble this.
BTW, I'm tempted to paraphrase a certain classic of the genre:
Ramandu wrote:"It's not as if he's a TAME wolf."
nurglitch wrote:Given the presence of creatures alluded to be Tyranids on Fenris, one might imagine that the 'wolves' have something really nasty lurking behind their minds.
Feral Tyranid creatures appear on a number of worlds, though. I guess the Fenris Kraken is what you're referring to?
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Brother Heinrich wrote:True enough, well hindsight is 20/20 after all, too bad foresight isn't correctable with lasik surgery eh?
I hear Ulthwe offers a pretty good deal on that, actually.
I mean that would have been some very serious tampering in order for the original colonists to completly turn into wolves or Wulfen, their is a differance between making something more adaptable and completly changing it's biology. As far as a Wulfen interbreeding with a fenrisian wolf, can't happen. Though they have wolf like characteristics Wulfen are still human at their core including the majority of their biology which means that they can't breed with wolves.
And if the original colonists had that much tampering then that means that their modern decendants on the planet would have the same trait and there has NEVER been any type of mention of a non SW becoming a Wulfen.
The Fenrisian Wolves are just that, wolves. They where brought by the original colonists and evolved in differant ways to better survive their environment. Some stayed fairly normal sized while others grew to huge sizes in order to hunt the larger more dangerous game like Trolls and Mammoth.
I kinda Exopheric's veiw of this; what if the wolves are daemons of the 'god of the storms' a warp based entity that the colonists began to belive in during old night? they saw the preditors of fenris and began to view them as the god of the storms minions?
this would also explain the powers of the rune priests.
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Alphi, I think the reason they ret-conned the "Sorcery vs Psychic powers" debate is that GW realised that they would have probably had to go into extreme depth on what constitutes "sorcery" and what constitutes "psychic power" as it really isn't too hard to say:
"Well, you say my ability to astrally project to speak to you is sorcery, but that rune priests ability to shoot lightning from his hands is ok? Or what about that blood angel librarian who sprouts magic wings and floats around like some sort of bird"
The new Edict of Nikea makes more sense, the old one seemed a bit too 'plot-holey'
Maybe, but I don't think it is hard to differentiate at all:
1) Sorcery - you bargained with someone for something
2) Psyker - you're able to channel the raw power of the warp into things, and you might attract someone's attention while doing so.
The new version is more 'plot-holey' in the sense that how the hell do we end up where we are 'today' after it?
Also the Space Wolf series specificly says that the first Wulfen was a Jarl named Wulfen who swore loyalty to Russ but instead just wanted power so he could defeat him. Because he was tainted he was turned into a Wulfen when he was given the canix helix and Russ then killed. This happened later in the life of Russ when he was first reunited with the Emperor. Yet Russ was raised by Fenrisian Wolves, this means the idea of natives turning into Wulfen and mating with wolves or devolving into wolves themselves is impossible because the Fenrisian Wolves already existed by the time the first Wulfen was created.
The Realm of Chaos, Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.6. wrote:Warpspace is Chaos, and Chaos is Warpspace; the two are indivisible.
Just in case people were wondering. Note the implication for psychic powers and sorcery: both channel the power of daemons, either with their active consent, or surreptitiously, with their implied consent. Either way it's happening because Tzeentch is rolling n-sided dice where they can't be seen by the laws of probability.
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Alphi, I think the reason they ret-conned the "Sorcery vs Psychic powers" debate is that GW realised that they would have probably had to go into extreme depth on what constitutes "sorcery" and what constitutes "psychic power" as it really isn't too hard to say:
"Well, you say my ability to astrally project to speak to you is sorcery, but that rune priests ability to shoot lightning from his hands is ok? Or what about that blood angel librarian who sprouts magic wings and floats around like some sort of bird"
The new Edict of Nikea makes more sense, the old one seemed a bit too 'plot-holey'
Maybe, but I don't think it is hard to differentiate at all:
1) Sorcery - you bargained with someone for something
2) Psyker - you're able to channel the raw power of the warp into things, and you might attract someone's attention while doing so.
The new version is more 'plot-holey' in the sense that how the hell do we end up where we are 'today' after it?
Quite so with the definitions. It's spelled out in the Chaos Marine codex, anyway. Sorcerers can only pull off their nastiest tricks by channeling bargained power.
The Thousand Sons were only able to reliably perform their feats at the levels that they did because of their Daemonic familiars.
As to Nikea, I think that there are a couple things to keep in mind. The first is that one of the recurring ideas in WH40k is that records are often lost or corrupted, and no-one except the Emperor and the senior Traitor Marines can recall what 'really' happened now. And psykers were even less accepted than they are in 40k. The one account of a marine from 30k ending up in the 41st millennium made it clear that he was VERY upset by how common psykers had become in the Imperium. (Angels of Darkness, and yes, unreliable narrator and all that.)
Second, though, only Space Marine Legionnaires were forbidden from using their powers. That actually makes some sense, an effort to keep Marines pure of (further) Warp influence and from becoming too powerful. Yet the real problem was Magnus' blindness to the dangers of trafficking with daemons for knowledge and power, not the use of psychic powers in themselves. But all Magnus saw was a rejection of his "superior wisdom," and the gifts he thought would save everyone. He was misguided, and more than a little selfishly proud.
It's ironic that the Corvidae never realized the reason why they were no longer able to divine the future. Their familiars didn't want to give away their real masters' plans! I did appreciate the Blood Ravens reference, though.
Something else to keep in mind is that like in real life, everyone in 40k has their own perspective. In Soul Hunter, for example, the protagonist Brother-Apothecary Talos is reprimanded by a Battle-Brother for thinking that he's always right, and reminding him that he wasn't the Night Haunter's only confidant. Think about his memory of the Night Haunter's suicide compared to that of Zso Sahaal's recollection. On the general points they're both in agreement, but on the particulars they're at odds.
Something else to keep in mind was that, as mentioned in Legion the Legions know about Daemons and had classified them as a type of antagonistic alien. Ahriman's perspective in A Thousand Sons makes it clear that he didn't regard the tutelaries as daemons, since daemons were 'known' to be malign alien intelligences rather than the psychic equivelant of the microsoft paper clip.
If Magnus had a fault, it was the fault of other Astartes and higher ups in 40k, that because they're superior to the common man that different rules apply. Take his version of the Platonic Cave, for example. I gotta admit I loved the part where the standard version was that the man coming back from seeing the Sun was destroyed by the men worshipping the shadows, but Magnus' optimistic retelling where the man is exalted by his fellows speaks of someone trying to change the inevitable because he genuinely thought he was that great.
Incidentally "Magnus" means the 'great' or the 'big'. Magnus Rufus is either "Big Red" or "Rufus the Great".
That ties into why I like the call the Thousand Sons the "Thousand Suns", alluding to the nature of psychically active souls in 40k (like suns), and the different lights of truth.
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Also the Space Wolf series specificly says that the first Wulfen was a Jarl named Wulfen who swore loyalty to Russ but instead just wanted power so he could defeat him. Because he was tainted he was turned into a Wulfen when he was given the canix helix and Russ then killed. This happened later in the life of Russ when he was first reunited with the Emperor. Yet Russ was raised by Fenrisian Wolves, this means the idea of natives turning into Wulfen and mating with wolves or devolving into wolves themselves is impossible because the Fenrisian Wolves already existed by the time the first Wulfen was created.
How is it impossible? There were human settlers on Fenris long before Russ showed up.
A legend about the first Wulfen proves nothing.
Wulfen could refer solely to those who devolve after aspiring to be Space Wolves.
Also, once Russ rose to power, any number of sagas could be re-written with him at their core.
I speculated that it was normal human colonists who mutated into the Fenrisian Wolves, not just SM.
There is nothing that covers the early years before Russ and the coming of the Emperor.
Manchu wrote:There other powers in the universe besides mortals and Warp "gods."
I like to think this way as well.
There can be more than we are being told by GW, because it (currently) doesn't suit them to make the 40K universe more complicated.
Who says that if we have the mortals and the Warp with it's gods and deamons, which can be viewed as the equivalent of Hell (not saying this is what GW intends, but it is a good way to "personify" the source of evil), that there isn't an equivalent of heaven out there either. It could have just (temporarily) abandoned this universe and it's involvement with the mortal races within.
For all we know the Emperor was an angelic entity sent to guide mankind in the battle of good against evil. Mankind failed basically, so now they have to fend for themselves for a while. The time that went bye since the Heresy could be just a blink of an eye in an eternal struggle that is going on. The spirits deep within the wolves could be (lesser) angelic entities as well (causing the tutelaries to be afraid of them). The vibe I'm getting from all the background I've read so far is that the wolves are pure at heart. Angelic entities don't have to be babyface creatures per definition. They can come in all forms and shapes.
Again, I'm not saying GW is intending the 40K universe to be like the classic idea of good/evil & Heaven/Hell that we have, and they seem to want the Imperium to be the main good guys in the story, but to think there is only the mortal realm and one other evil dimension is rather limited Imo.
At the end we'll have to deal with what GW provides us with as far as "official" storylines go. It doesn't suit them to elaborate too much, so most of this will have to come from our own imagination, which could also very well be their intention.
Firstly, that Warhammer 40k isn't about good and evil, and other simplistic binary notions. The Warp is nasty precisely because it is amoral and uncaring, rather than somehow 'evil'. This is why H.P.Lovecraft is so popular, because he does away with a manichean (i.e. dualistic) human-centered universe of a loving personal God and hating personal Devil, and replaces it with forces beyond caring and comprehension.
Once you abandon naively dualistic notions like good and evil, you can get to the nitty gritty of a myriad of perspectives, opinions, values, and motivations. You can even have differing philosophies, with each believing the others to be superstition or stupidity, and believing itself to know the right or real world.
It was said in Hamlet that:
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet, Act 1, Scene 5, Lines 166–167.
Or, to put it another way, the truth is stranger than fiction (which is pretty funny if you've ever looked into the notion of truth, but I digress) because the truth can't be compressed into simplistic philosophies of good and evil. The truth encompasses differing perspectives rather than being an exact match for on. Warhammer 40,000 is more interesting when it's more like real life in that people have more motivations besides "Rarr, I'm evil!" and "Good for the Good God!". You know, those boring parts when Space Marines aren't killing people.
Similarly the Warp is beyond space and time in 40k, again mimicking Lovecraft's notion of space-time being a local oddity rather than a universal. You can't bung Warpspace and Realspace into a dualistic notion even if both are de facto infinite, not anymore than you can equate the cardinality of different orders of infinity. It's not that we don't have the limits of the universe laid out for us, it's that it's a big and complicated universe.
For example, the Warp might as well be Heaven as much as it is Hell. Both are prosaic anthropocentric mythologies intended as metaphors for the human condition and morality. Without that anthropocentrism the indescribable nature of the Warp is a lot more interesting, particularly if characters with opposing motivation interact with it. Personally I like the point in Codex: Chaos Daemons that the Material universe only occasions limited interest from the Chaos Gods, who are more concerned about the higher order affairs of the Warp than some limited conglomerate of lower dimensions.
Which is a point that I think people forget: That the Chaos Gods are mutually antagonistic, not only with each other, but with themselves! They aren't people, they aren't He or She, they're It. It's like Hyenas chasing lions away from a kill doesn't indicate they adhere to some higher moral calling, and act as agents of benevolent anti-lion gods, it simply indicates that they're competing predators with the upper hand. They're Gods insofar as they're supernatural beings forming the metaphysical substrata of the universe, but not so much in the sense of also being omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent.
And that's the neat thing about 40k, that it's more than just a pseudo-abrahamaic morality play, and that there's loose ends that aren't somehow just unused storylines (or 'plots', to get technical) or choose-your-own-adventure fodder, but necessary for fleshing out a universe that isn't one gigantic deus ex machine.
Which brings me back to the point of the novels.Novels are about things beyond "And then he did this, and then he did that", and they're not factual reports or technical writing, they're intended to make some sort of point.
In the rulebook the ficton (a fancy word for the background or 'universe' in which a story is set) is there to give you some flavour of the universe, to create a wireframe that you can populate with your own paint-scheme, background, and so on. In the novel the ficton exists as part of an elaborate metaphor, and if anything exists or happens, it's there to either to drive home the point of the novel, or to decorate the plot so that it's not so didactic.
Hence one can see that the point of A Thousand Sons is to highlight the hypocrisy of the young Imperium, the overweening pride of the Thousand Sons, and the conflict between barbarity (the Space Wolves) and supposedly civilized utopianism (the Thousand Sons) beyond fleshing out the events of the Horus Heresy.
Hence the "There are no wolves on Fenris" could mean anything about the background from the stabilized descendents of Tyrannic invaders to degenerate colonists to warp-predators possessing wolf-like auto-cthonic predators of Fenris, so long as it makes the point that the Space Wolves are dabbling in precisely the same kind of pacts and invocations of daemonic power that the Thousands Sons do, and the Emperor might have.
Well, it is known that not all warp entities are tied to one of the 4 chaos gods.
there are many Warp entities more powerful then deamons, but not as powerful as the 4. there are also some that are though to be more powerful, Gork and Mork to name a couple.
the Eldar gods certaintly are/were on par with the chaos gods. Khain ALMOST beat Slanessh to bloody pulp and the Laughing God escaped and continues to be a thorn is the Depraved prince's side.
the rumored God of the Dead(yhened or something) supposedly will defeat Slanesh.
Well-known, but not true. As mention the Chaos Gods are the Warp. If you're a warp-entity, then you're a Chaos God or one of its sock-puppets, and there's plenty of conflict just between a Chaos God and its sock-puppets, to reiterate the example of Skarbrand the Exiled, let alone the internecine conflicts between the daemons themselves (the Bloodthirster and the Daemon Prince in Dead Sky, Black Sun is another example).
Something to remember, that Codex: Chaos Daemons takes some pains to point out, that the personification of the Chaos Gods and other warp entities is purely metaphorical. That Nurgle keeps Isha in a cage and feeds her diseases does not mean that there's a giant bogey man in the warp with a woman in a cage, it means that Isha is an aspect of Nurgle, and that life and fecundity are as much a part of Nurgle as morbidity and stagnation.
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Also the Space Wolf series specificly says that the first Wulfen was a Jarl named Wulfen who swore loyalty to Russ but instead just wanted power so he could defeat him. Because he was tainted he was turned into a Wulfen when he was given the canix helix and Russ then killed. This happened later in the life of Russ when he was first reunited with the Emperor. Yet Russ was raised by Fenrisian Wolves, this means the idea of natives turning into Wulfen and mating with wolves or devolving into wolves themselves is impossible because the Fenrisian Wolves already existed by the time the first Wulfen was created.
How is it impossible? There were human settlers on Fenris long before Russ showed up.
I'm aware of this. It's shown in my posts, but if there had been natives who had turned into wolves or wolf like creatures then those who turned into Wulfen later on woulden't be called Wulfen they would be called the original name of the people meaning it never happened before then. Nor would Wulfen have been called THE FIRST WULFEN.
It's highly doubtfull that a differintiation would be made about wolf creatures from normal humans and wolf creatures from Astartes just because of the differances between being human and Astartes. Also SW candidates are given the Canix Helix when they are still effectivly human at the begining of their training.
A legend about the first Wulfen proves nothing.
Who says it's a legend? The SW sagas are their histories and while they may embelish a few things there is still truth to it so if the "legend" as you put it is of the first wulfen then that was the first Wulfen. And again why would they have a differant name for the same thing and why woulden't it have been mentioned before in any fluff?
Wulfen could refer solely to those who devolve after aspiring to be Space Wolves.
Just because it could dosen't mean it does.
Also, once Russ rose to power, any number of sagas could be re-written with him at their core.
Again there is no proof of this. And even if how could this have been re-written from something before Russ? was there another being who offered Jarls a the chance to drink from a cup and gain great power then venture among the stars fighting humanities enemies? If so point him out in fluff. And what would be the point of re-writing Russ into the story anyway? It isn't a heroic tale of battle, it isn't a story of Fenris' creation? So why would anyone bother to write him into it unless he was already in it?
I speculated that it was normal human colonists who mutated into the Fenrisian Wolves, not just SM.
Again I know, it's shown in the wording of my post that I'm not just talking about SM
There is nothing that covers the early years before Russ and the coming of the Emperor.
Exactly so anything that is said happened then that isn't established is purely conjecture or fan based. Trying to fill in holes with theories that have only been mention in one source and fly in the face of all established fluff isn't going to work.
If there had been man wolf beasts on Fenris prior to Russ in any time period then the natives would have known about it and had legends of it as well as a name for it. That also means that the original Space Wolves who are HIGHLY enfluenced by Fenrisian culture beings as they are from the planet would have known about it as well which means they would have called any such creatures the same thing as the Fenrisian locals and would not have come up with a name for a creature that "already existed if it did. They would also not have a saga about the first Wulfen having been created in the time of Russ if creatures like it already existed before hand.
Now if it is said "well they didn't turn into Wulfen like creatures they turned into wolves completly so they where mistaken for wolves and no on knew they where human". Then how come none of the modern desendants of the settelers completly mutate into wolves? Alterations as major as that in their biology would be passed down through the generations. And how would you explain that they all mutated into wolves exactly? Considering wolves are a completly differant species how can a Homo Sapien turn into a Canus Lupus even with "conditioning to better survive"? And then how do you explain the size? Normal Fenrisians may be burly humans but they aren't abnormally large so how could the wolves grow to such large sizes? It can't be from interbreeding with SW Wulfen because like I said before they're entirely unrelated geneologically.
The idea that Fenrisian Wolves are the decendants of the planets original settelers is just that, an idea. It is unsupporeted in any fluff and is contradicted by most of it and so again I don't buy it.
Now there is some presedence for humans evolving or mutating into a differant species in the Abhumans. Ogryn, Ratlings and Beastmen where all human once in their lineage. And if you think about it the idea of humans being modified to better survive on their chosen planets works well with these 3 examples. But if that idea is applied to Fenrisians that means that just like every other abhuman they would have evolved into a humanoid creature and not a full blown animal. And even turning into a abhuman woulden't have allowed them to mate with normal wolves to create a future species of giant intelligent wolf.
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Yeah I don't buy it.
I mean that would have been some very serious tampering in order for the original colonists to completly turn into wolves or Wulfen, their is a differance between making something more adaptable and completly changing it's biology. As far as a Wulfen interbreeding with a fenrisian wolf, can't happen. Though they have wolf like characteristics Wulfen are still human at their core including the majority of their biology which means that they can't breed with wolves.
And if the original colonists had that much tampering then that means that their modern decendants on the planet would have the same trait and there has NEVER been any type of mention of a non SW becoming a Wulfen.
The Fenrisian Wolves are just that, wolves. They where brought by the original colonists and evolved in differant ways to better survive their environment. Some stayed fairly normal sized while others grew to huge sizes in order to hunt the larger more dangerous game like Trolls and Mammoth.
have you ever noticed that the one place Fenrisian wolves exist is Asaheim...the one place where no natives live? is it too terribly hard to believe that human settlers via evolution/gene manipulation came to adapt to that particular area of the planet over a 20,000 year span? is it not also possible that during this time or during old night that warp entities inhabited the human settlers of the Asaheim region, twisting them into something less than men, changing them into beasts, there's numerous causes and theories that can be guessed at, however one thing is certain, the wolves of Fenris are not wolves, Wolves do not cause demons to run in fear.
Something else I'll note: In A Thousand Sons the tutelaries don't attend the Rehahti, or council of the Thousand Sons, or apparently any other gathering with Magnus present. Aaetipo, or Ahriman's tutelary, does attend because "it would be overwhelmed in the face of the primarch's power."
Similarly they can't abide the psychic dampening of the Mountain...
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Yeah I don't buy it.
I mean that would have been some very serious tampering in order for the original colonists to completly turn into wolves or Wulfen, their is a differance between making something more adaptable and completly changing it's biology. As far as a Wulfen interbreeding with a fenrisian wolf, can't happen. Though they have wolf like characteristics Wulfen are still human at their core including the majority of their biology which means that they can't breed with wolves.
And if the original colonists had that much tampering then that means that their modern decendants on the planet would have the same trait and there has NEVER been any type of mention of a non SW becoming a Wulfen.
The Fenrisian Wolves are just that, wolves. They where brought by the original colonists and evolved in differant ways to better survive their environment. Some stayed fairly normal sized while others grew to huge sizes in order to hunt the larger more dangerous game like Trolls and Mammoth.
have you ever noticed that the one place Fenrisian wolves exist is Asaheim...the one place where no natives live? is it too terribly hard to believe that human settlers via evolution/gene manipulation came to adapt to that particular area of the planet over a 20,000 year span?
Have you ever noticed that there is this little fact in the fluff of the Space Wolves that says why none of the Fenrisians live on Asaheim? It says that Asaheim is the only stable continent on the planet (which is why ALL the native land dwelling fauna live there) and that besides being the land of the sky warriors who the tribes are superstitious/fearfull of (Space Wolves) the tribes where banned from living on Asaheim by Russ in order to keep them strong so that they would make good recruits for the chapter.
Oh and the idea of Evolution, lets see in order for humans to evolve into wolves they would first have to de-evolve back into the closest relative between primates and canines and then they would have to somehow re-evolve all of the same characteristics that wolves poses plus greater size and all the while having to maintain the higher level of intelligence that Fenrisian Wolves have through the countless generations (alot more then 20,000) it would have taken to do all of this.
Now lets go on to gene manipulation. If the colonists had manipulated genesthat where combined with wolves it's true that they would start to exibit some canine traits after a few generations. But the kicker for that is that is no matter how many traits they took on of the wolf they would still have their human traits so they would not become actual wolves but creatures like the Wulfen. And then once again there is the fact that the modern tribes of Fenris are descended from those original colonists which means they would have the same traits.
And the key word here is adapt not transform ok it dosen't matter if it's 20,000 years or 10 minutes even in 40K people do not just turn into animals, they can change species given enough time but all of those species are human based which is why Space Wolves don't turn into actual wolves, they turn into Wolf Men. Kroot do it. Humans don't
however one thing is certain, the wolves of Fenris are not wolves, Wolves do not cause demons to run in fear.
Oh but humans who have turned into wolves do? or for that metter daemons who possesed humans turned them into wolves, then bred with eachother making super half daemonic wolves causes other daemons to run in fear? Considering I'm pretty sure the only thing that daemons do fear are the Greater Daemons and the Gods.
I would like for somebody to point out some fluff (other then that 1 piece from the book which dosen't even factually say that they aren't wolves) that even hints that the original colonists mutated/evolved/devolved/transformed into wolves due to genetic tampering designed to make them more adaptable to Fenris. Because so far every reason that "could be a reason why it happened" has been fluff with an established purpose that has never made any mention of colonists turning into wolves. Oh and by the way this whole thing sounds like a poor knock off of Pandorum.
It's completely possible for humans to de-evolve and re-evolve in the span of 20k years considering that in this background, initiates drink from a cup and have their entire DNA rewritten and can potentially become wulfen. Also it's possible to shoot lightning from your fingertips and be bound into a daemonhost cause you're pyschic. If the Warp is involved it can happen. All in good fun right?
It's completely possible for humans to de-evolve and re-evolve in the span of 20k years considering that in this background, initiates drink from a cup and have their entire DNA rewritten and can potentially become wulfen. Also it's possible to shoot lightning from your fingertips and be bound into a daemonhost cause you're pyschic. If the Warp is involved it can happen. All in good fun right?
Nurglitch wrote:See link in signature.
despite the fact that he may be guilty of committing, as you put it so artfully, argumentum ad fireballum, he does make a valid case, the rules of reality in the 41st millenium are little skewed from our present day. To actually support my argument of de-evolution I would point out that I'm not saying the ancient human populace of Asaheim devolved and the re-evolved into the actual canis family tree, I'm saying they devolved into feral hair covered humans possessed of abnormal amounts of strength, not that far outside the realm of possibility, especially having 20,000 years and possible pre-cursor genetic altering technology they might have brought with them.
mrwhoop wrote:@ Warboss Imbad Ironskull
It's completely possible for humans to de-evolve and re-evolve in the span of 20k years
Ok so if it is completly possible then what are the chances that every single one of the humans who did this would all develop every trait that Wolves had and why is there not ANYTHING in any fluff except for one little section in a fairly new book that supports the idea when every other scrap of fluff says otherwise.
And again if it is completly possible why aren't the current tribes devolving into wolves as they are the direct descendants of the original colonists. And it can't be said that they are descendants of colonists who didn't recieve the gene treatment (if any did) because they would want everyone to have better chances of survival not just some.
considering that in this background, initiates drink from a cup and have their entire DNA rewritten and can potentially become wulfen. Also it's possible to shoot lightning from your fingertips and be bound into a daemonhost cause you're pyschic. If the Warp is involved it can happen. All in good fun right?
Also considering that no fluff has ever mentioned any Fenrisian transforming into something other then those chosen to be a Space Wolf and even then it only happens via the catalys in the Cup of Russ or those of Fenris who have been affected by the warp (if not killed at birth) become a dopperganger (or however it is spelled) which are still humanoid and have not turned into wolves.
And considering the Warp making anything possible I very highly doubt that the warp would turn such a large number of beings into the same uniform creature considering the warp is an entity/substance that thrives on diversity and (no pun intended) chaos so to say that the warp affected them just enough to turn them into wolves but not enough for anything else to happen is trying to twist something to suit what you want.
I'm all for things being in good fun but that dosen't mean I'll go along with something that I see no possible way of happening and that isn't supported by any fluff. And I apologise if it seems like I'm trying to kill this thread but people need to change their theories to suit facts, not change facts to suit their theories. I believe that it is possible that the wolves of Fenris could have had something happen to them to make them differant after all they can grow to the size of a tank or bigger. But I don't believe that humans de-evolved into wolves considering there are too many holes in the idea and there is no presedence in the 40k universe for humans completly turning into an animal. Human animal hybrids yes, humans that are bestial in appearance yes.
Now if someone came up with the idea that say the wolves where tampered with by the planets colonists or that the wolves where affected by the warp (either naturally or through some sort of spell) making them more intelligent and larger (and in some cases 2 headed like Morkai) then I would see that as plausible as it fits with the established background of 40k.
Ok so if it is completly possible then what are the chances that every single one of the humans who did this would all develop every trait that Wolves had and why is there not ANYTHING in any fluff except for one little section in a fairly new book that supports the idea when every other scrap of fluff says otherwise.
Considering what we know of genetics it's possible to assert that some influence (they did it to themselves or the warp did it) messed with a sufficient number of the populous to cause varying traits that could make wulfen (man animal), upright wolves (animal man), Fenrisian wolves (animal) over so much time. Also, GW is just now writing out the Horus Heresy and while the bits of fluff have been around, we're just now getting detailed official cannon. I've seen older codexes, not wholly fluff changing but they have retcon hammered some backgrounds (WitchHunter/SoB come to mind).
Quote Warboss Imbad Ironskull:
And again if it is completly possible why aren't the current tribes devolving into wolves as they are the direct descendants of the original colonists. And it can't be said that they are descendants of colonists who didn't recieve the gene treatment (if any did) because they would want everyone to have better chances of survival not just some.
I would say if it were some self medication experiment/process that those that didn't change had some trait/warp influence that allowed them to stay human and when exposed to more allowed the first stages of changes to show. That is to say the marine process bulked them up, and the enhanced sense of smell/sight were the first stages of wulfen. They go too far and boom, first transition that is wulfen. Thus why the SW can recruit from them has they had this/these trait(s) that kept them human and not turn into the Fenrisian wolves of today.
Quote Warboss Imbad Ironskull:
And considering the Warp making anything possible I very highly doubt that the warp would turn such a large number of beings into the same uniform creature considering the warp is an entity/substance that thrives on diversity and (no pun intended) chaos so to say that the warp affected them just enough to turn them into wolves but not enough for anything else to happen is trying to twist something to suit what you want.
And that's why I think whatever trait/warp influence caused this freaked out the tutelaries because they were entities that were stabilizing/stable in the material. These new things (Fenriasian wolves) were not aligned to the 4 Ruinious Powers and whatnot.
I'm still leaning towards the spiritual explanation for the un-Wolfness of the Wolves. The genetically engineered colonist wolves is too complicated, now that I think about it. And as others have stated at length. The adaptation Magnus was referring to must have meant something more abstract.
As I recall, in the old Realms of Chaos books, independent chaos powers ARE mentioned. The Ruinous Four are the largest, the most influential (certainly as far as humans are concerned), and the only ones really supported by the rules. However, there is The Forge of Souls, there are/were the Eldar Gods, Raptor Cults back in the day, whatever the Hrud worship. The most detailed origin of the Emperor suggest he came about as a countermeasure to humanity losing its original, natural connection with the Warp, which was related to the natural powers inherent to Earth. (It's a little hippy-dippy, honestly, but it's pretty solidly connected to the philosophy that ran pretty strongly through the 70's fantasy that influenced Warhammer.) Other planets may have these native spirit-forces. Some may be unique, many have probably been subsumed by The Four.
So perhaps the wolves of Fenris and the Space Wolves are connected similarly to a local spirit of their homeworld? The Codex description of the Trial of Morkai (where the Canis Helix is implanted) is suggestive. "....must overcome the shadow within lest it possess him entirely." It's a ritual that exacts a high cost, but unlike a pact with the Dark Gods it isn't an endless spiral of corruption.
Such a spirit, being both of the Materium and the Warp, is not something a true Daemon would be too happy to encounter, especially if they're pretending to be something else. Like the Tutelaries were.
Exopheric wrote: I'm still leaning towards the spiritual explanation for the un-Wolfness of the Wolves. The genetically engineered colonist wolves is too complicated, now that I think about it. And as others have stated at length. The adaptation Magnus was referring to must have meant something more abstract.
As I recall, in the old Realms of Chaos books, independent chaos powers ARE mentioned. The Ruinous Four are the largest, the most influential (certainly as far as humans are concerned), and the only ones really supported by the rules. However, there is The Forge of Souls, there are/were the Eldar Gods, Raptor Cults back in the day, whatever the Hrud worship. The most detailed origin of the Emperor suggest he came about as a countermeasure to humanity losing its original, natural connection with the Warp, which was related to the natural powers inherent to Earth. (It's a little hippy-dippy, honestly, but it's pretty solidly connected to the philosophy that ran pretty strongly through the 70's fantasy that influenced Warhammer.) Other planets may have these native spirit-forces. Some may be unique, many have probably been subsumed by The Four.
So perhaps the wolves of Fenris and the Space Wolves are connected similarly to a local spirit of their homeworld? The Codex description of the Trial of Morkai (where the Canis Helix is implanted) is suggestive. "....must overcome the shadow within lest it possess him entirely." It's a ritual that exacts a high cost, but unlike a pact with the Dark Gods it isn't an endless spiral of corruption.
Such a spirit, being both of the Materium and the Warp, is not something a true Daemon would be too happy to encounter, especially if they're pretending to be something else. Like the Tutelaries were.
Thats what i was saying; a lesser warp god of fenris. the god of the storms that the fenrisians worship; and as i said before it could also explain the rune lords powers.
Wasn't Space Wolves having werewolf aspects emphasized a little more in previous codices? I believe that before Thunderwolf cheese became the defining characteristic of Space Wolves, they were generally derogatorily referred to as Viking werewolves. Circumstantial and weak, but it may add a touch of credibility to the Fenrisians' devolution theory.
Well. I have always had a respect for the space wolves. But the feeling I have about the Rune Priest's is that they are kinda of well over the top on the table top.
Anyway the Thousand Son's really deserved better when fighting the wolves. I mean seriously the Thousand Son's would of owned the Wolves!
Asherian Command wrote:Well. I have always had a respect for the space wolves. But the feeling I have about the Rune Priest's is that they are kinda of well over the top on the table top.
Anyway the Thousand Son's really deserved better when fighting the wolves. I mean seriously the Thousand Son's would of owned the Wolves!
well they did in the opening stages of the conflict, considering every single one was a psyker to a greater or lesser degree, however they were undone by the combined flaw inherent in their geneseed and the fact that many of their "tutelaries" showed their true forms as void predators and demons and used their Thousand Son counterparts as hosts, thus the defence largely crumbled when they all started being possessed and spontaneously mutating. makes it rather hard to conduct a planetary defense when that happens.
Asherian Command wrote:Well. I have always had a respect for the space wolves. But the feeling I have about the Rune Priest's is that they are kinda of well over the top on the table top.
Anyway the Thousand Son's really deserved better when fighting the wolves. I mean seriously the Thousand Son's would of owned the Wolves!
well they did in the opening stages of the conflict, considering every single one was a psyker to a greater or lesser degree, however they were undone by the combined flaw inherent in their geneseed and the fact that many of their "tutelaries" showed their true forms as void predators and demons and used their Thousand Son counterparts as hosts, thus the defence largely crumbled when they all started being possessed and spontaneously mutating. makes it rather hard to conduct a planetary defense when that happens.
anyways, back to the meat and potatoes of this thread, I'd say the nature spirit theory has some merit to it, is it not also possible that the wolves of Fenris are on some level psychic beings of a sort? just like humans have telepaths, navigators, and blanks, what if the wolves are in the same category. Maybe they provide a sort of psychic dampening effect like a blank, but rather than a blanket effect, they provide a mutually beneficial power that both acts in defense of the warp and in support of the space wolves due to the canis helix.
While I like the notion that the wolves are animal blanks, that doesn't explain how Wyrdmake relates to his wolf Ymir, or how Leman Russ gets along with Freki and the other one. Or why Rune Priests appeal to spirits.
I'm rereading A Thousand Sons and the author goes to some laborious lengths to make the moral ambiguity of everything an issue. Is the Warp heaven, or hell?
Something that Codex: Chaos Space Marines (and Lord of the Night) makes clear is that the line is crossed when something is done for its own selfish purposes, and that corruption is a matter of turning inward. That's why I like the lack of And They Shall Know No Fear in Chaos Space Marines: morale goes to pot when your fellow soldiers are no longer willing to die for you or the cause. Not that there aren't a lot of lines crossed along the way, but the big one seems to be the inversion of intention.
Which is kind of neat if you know anything about Dante's Divine Comedy where the Inferno, Hell, is an inward spiral of man gradually turning away from god, his community, and ultimately himself.
The Thousand Sons, in the eponymous novel, take the value of knowledge for its own sake long before they realize that they've damned themselves, and it's just a matter of time before they decide to go all in and preserve themselves from their reckoning.
Similarly the Luna Wolves are full of themselves as the foremost legion, the Emperor's Children are proud of their own pride, trying to make it a virtue, and the Death Guard are indominatible because that's who they are. Captain Kharn of the World Eaters shows their taint when he reveals that he expects no end to the Great Crusade, and the Night Haunter commits suicide rather than descend into the embrace of Chaos. All of the traitor legions turn inward and discover the emptiness of Chaos waiting for them. When they're no longer fighting for glorious ideals, for the Emperor's vision of the galaxy, etc. Magnus' own attempt at suicide fails when he decides to act in his Legion's interests, his own interests, rather than calmly putting his own head on the chopping block.
Nurglitch wrote:While I like the notion that the wolves are animal blanks, that doesn't explain how Wyrdmake relates to his wolf Ymir, or how Leman Russ gets along with Freki and the other one. Or why Rune Priests appeal to spirits.
I'm rereading A Thousand Sons and the author goes to some laborious lengths to make the moral ambiguity of everything an issue. Is the Warp heaven, or hell?
Something that Codex: Chaos Space Marines (and Lord of the Night) makes clear is that the line is crossed when something is done for its own selfish purposes, and that corruption is a matter of turning inward. That's why I like the lack of And They Shall Know No Fear in Chaos Space Marines: morale goes to pot when your fellow soldiers are no longer willing to die for you or the cause. Not that there aren't a lot of lines crossed along the way, but the big one seems to be the inversion of intention.
Which is kind of neat if you know anything about Dante's Divine Comedy where the Inferno, Hell, is an inward spiral of man gradually turning away from god, his community, and ultimately himself.
The Thousand Sons, in the eponymous novel, take the value of knowledge for its own sake long before they realize that they've damned themselves, and it's just a matter of time before they decide to go all in and preserve themselves from their reckoning.
Similarly the Luna Wolves are full of themselves as the foremost legion, the Emperor's Children are proud of their own pride, trying to make it a virtue, and the Death Guard are indominatible because that's who they are. Captain Kharn of the World Eaters shows their taint when he reveals that he expects no end to the Great Crusade, and the Night Haunter commits suicide rather than descend into the embrace of Chaos. All of the traitor legions turn inward and discover the emptiness of Chaos waiting for them. When they're no longer fighting for glorious ideals, for the Emperor's vision of the galaxy, etc. Magnus' own attempt at suicide fails when he decides to act in his Legion's interests, his own interests, rather than calmly putting his own head on the chopping block.
Beautiful The most well thought out paragraphs I have read in this thread. *claps* (No I am not being sarcastic. I do mean it. It was well done. And I kinda was thinking that too.)
Ok so if it is completly possible then what are the chances that every single one of the humans who did this would all develop every trait that Wolves had and why is there not ANYTHING in any fluff except for one little section in a fairly new book that supports the idea when every other scrap of fluff says otherwise.
Considering what we know of genetics it's possible to assert that some influence (they did it to themselves or the warp did it) messed with a sufficient number of the populous to cause varying traits that could make wulfen (man animal), upright wolves (animal man), Fenrisian wolves (animal) over so much time. Also, GW is just now writing out the Horus Heresy and while the bits of fluff have been around, we're just now getting detailed official cannon. I've seen older codexes, not wholly fluff changing but they have retcon hammered some backgrounds (WitchHunter/SoB come to mind).
Quote Warboss Imbad Ironskull:
And again if it is completly possible why aren't the current tribes devolving into wolves as they are the direct descendants of the original colonists. And it can't be said that they are descendants of colonists who didn't recieve the gene treatment (if any did) because they would want everyone to have better chances of survival not just some.
I would say if it were some self medication experiment/process that those that didn't change had some trait/warp influence that allowed them to stay human and when exposed to more allowed the first stages of changes to show. That is to say the marine process bulked them up, and the enhanced sense of smell/sight were the first stages of wulfen. They go too far and boom, first transition that is wulfen. Thus why the SW can recruit from them has they had this/these trait(s) that kept them human and not turn into the Fenrisian wolves of today.
Quote Warboss Imbad Ironskull:
And considering the Warp making anything possible I very highly doubt that the warp would turn such a large number of beings into the same uniform creature considering the warp is an entity/substance that thrives on diversity and (no pun intended) chaos so to say that the warp affected them just enough to turn them into wolves but not enough for anything else to happen is trying to twist something to suit what you want.
And that's why I think whatever trait/warp influence caused this freaked out the tutelaries because they were entities that were stabilizing/stable in the material. These new things (Fenriasian wolves) were not aligned to the 4 Ruinious Powers and whatnot.
Ok, I have provided very clear fluff based points as to why the original human colonists of Fenris DID NOT evolve into wolves. So far no one has actually been able to put any cited fluff supported arguments against the points I've made (because there are none). And no one has bothered to answer the pruposed questions I have made which concern the many many holes in the idea. Also no one has been able to provide any further sources that even come close to supporting the idea, and you can say that the history of the Imperium is just now being revealed in detail but tell me something. Does that section of the Thousand Sons book outright say that "Oh these wolves are differant then normal wolves they must have come from humans"? no it dosen't in fact it dosen't give any explenation. That can hardly be considered revealing the history of the Space Wolves in detail.
You want the idea to be valid, disprove the points I've made that have said the exact opposite of the idea and IF you can disprove them do it WITH FLUFF. Viably answer the questions I posed which again are large holes in the idea and do it WITH FLUFF. And do all of this without using the idea that "anything can happen" because you know what yes anything CAN happen but if it is not supported in fluff or in a case of presedence then that does not mean that it HAS happened. You can think I'm making a flame war, you can think what you anything want for that matter I don't really care. I am supported by the established fluff that has been written and has been used multiple times versus 1 source that isn't conclusive, barely hinting in no general direction and is not supported in a relative way by anything else in the 40k universe.
Seaward wrote:Wasn't Space Wolves having werewolf aspects emphasized a little more in previous codices? I believe that before Thunderwolf cheese became the defining characteristic of Space Wolves, they were generally derogatorily referred to as Viking werewolves. Circumstantial and weak, but it may add a touch of credibility to the Fenrisians' devolution theory.
Exactly. Some of you guys are developing some interesting complex theories, but GW keeps their concepts simple -- because simple concepts are usually the most evocative. SW are Viking werewolves just like BA are baroque vampires. "There are no wolves on Fenris" is most likely a nod to lycanthropy.
Well I'm sorry Warboss Imbad Ironskull but you never listed your sources of fluff so your explanation is just as valid and invalid as those laid out. Fluff based points still aren't fluff/official cannon. All of this is fan based explanations as there are no cannon sources I have read to say where the Fen wolves came from. I think the BRB says colonists brought animals with them but Terra doesn't have Kraken or giant wolves with steel for fur or Ice Bears. Or at the least doesn't mention it. And I did address your holes about colonists becoming the wolves and those that didn't became wolves are the recruiting pool the SW use today.
Yes I can say this is the history of the SW in detail because I made it up. The only thing that was revealed in the line "There are no wolves on Fenris" as some Thousand Son said that could be literal or metaphysical and it would be correct. Because we don't know and maybe they'll shed some light on it or GW will squat the idea later.
And I can't remember the title but there was a stranded IG on a world and the gravity was so strong the local pop had to alter themselves to have 4 legs to move around. Kinda human but not right? So I have fluff based support to say early colonists can radically change themselves with old tech. Please list your source(s) (dex edition too) as there's still room for discussion and no I don't think you're in a flame war...at least I don't read you with that mind set.
mrwhoop wrote:
And I can't remember the title but there was a stranded IG on a world and the gravity was so strong the local pop had to alter themselves to have 4 legs to move around. Kinda human but not right?
I believe the story was in Let the Galaxy Burn and if I remember correctly the guardsmen even found a functioning SCT system on the planet.
mrwhoop wrote:
And I can't remember the title but there was a stranded IG on a world and the gravity was so strong the local pop had to alter themselves to have 4 legs to move around. Kinda human but not right?
I believe the story was in Let the Galaxy Burn and if I remember correctly the guardsmen even found a functioning SCT system on the planet.
Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Does that section of the Thousand Sons book outright say that "Oh these wolves are differant then normal wolves they must have come from humans"? no it dosen't in fact it dosen't give any explenation. That can hardly be considered revealing the history of the Space Wolves in detail.
Nope. All it says is that there are no wolves on Fenris. Whether you take the statement at face value, whether you believe it's a metaphor, whether you think it's a hint of something dark and sinister...that's basically what this thread appears to be about.
And, for the record, as far as I can tell, there's no fluff stating that the Fenrisian colonists DIDN'T devolve into wolves, just as there's no fluff indicating they did. I think it's a far-out theory, but then again, as I stated previously, Space Wolves were Viking werewolves before they were Viking Thunderwolf spam, so it's possible there's something to it until proven otherwise.
Brother Heinrich wrote:there is also the matter of Canis Wolfborn. old Boyo is certainly closer to the wolves than his own kind, sharing a, kindred if you will.
You know that's probably because he was raised by them.
"His eyes met those of the beast, and he saw into its heart, the alien core of the being beneath the mask of the wolf. His eyes widened in recognition, but it was too late to do anything except fight."
Phosis T'kar fighting a wolf during the Burning of Prospero. A Thousand Sons, p.235.
probably, which would be annoying, I'm always eager for more dirt to throw at them lol. It saddens me that GW has made them what they are now-a-days, I played SW faithfully for nigh on a decade as my beloved space vikings with excess body hair, now I shake my head and a say, 'sonny, things just aint the way they used to be.'
I wanted to bump this, as I've just now gotten my hands on the book itself, and there's far, far more to it than a simple quote that there are no wolves on Fenris. Hopefully I'm allowed to post a couple paragraphs from it - if not, somebody smack me.
Anyway, here they are, in spoiler tags:
Spoiler:
Magnus gave a studied shrug and said, “You look at those beasts and you see wolves, but is that only because it is what you expect to see?”
“What else would we see?” asked Hathor Maat. “They are wolves.”
“When you have traveled as far as I have, and seen as I have seen, you will learn that it is possible to look beyond the expected and into the true heart of a thing.”
Magnus gestured towards a wolf loping alongside the column, its powerful muscles driving it uphill through the heat without pause.
“I can look past the flesh and muscle of that beast, paring back the bone into the heart of its marrow to read every scar and twist in its genetic code. I can unravel the millennia of change back to the logos of its origins,” said Magnus. Ahriman was surprised to hear sadness in his voice, as though he had seen things he would rather not have seen. “The thing it is, what it wished to be, and all the stages of that long evolutionary road.”
The wolf stopped beside Magnus and he nodded towards it. An unspoken discourse seemed to pass between them. Ahriman caught a knowing glance from Ohthere Wyrdmake. Despite his reservations, he felt the urge to nurture the nascent kinship between them.
“Away with you!” shouted Phosis T’kar, shooing it. “Damned wolves.”
Magnus smiled. “I told you, there are no wolves on Fenris.”
Now, even prior to that, there's roughly a page and a half of Magnus more-than-heavily-hinting that the wolves in question are genetically engineered - and not, at all, wolves. In fact, he strongly suggests that they're, in part, the original colonists of Fenris, adapted to the environment. I know that theory was brought up before in this thread, but I wasn't aware if the fact that it was postulated in the book by a Primarch had been mentioned or not.
Seaward wrote:I wanted to bump this, as I've just now gotten my hands on the book itself, and there's far, far more to it than a simple quote that there are no wolves on Fenris. Hopefully I'm allowed to post a couple paragraphs from it - if not, somebody smack me.
Anyway, here they are, in spoiler tags:
Spoiler:
Magnus gave a studied shrug and said, “You look at those beasts and you see wolves, but is that only because it is what you expect to see?”
“What else would we see?” asked Hathor Maat. “They are wolves.”
“When you have traveled as far as I have, and seen as I have seen, you will learn that it is possible to look beyond the expected and into the true heart of a thing.”
Magnus gestured towards a wolf loping alongside the column, its powerful muscles driving it uphill through the heat without pause.
“I can look past the flesh and muscle of that beast, paring back the bone into the heart of its marrow to read every scar and twist in its genetic code. I can unravel the millennia of change back to the logos of its origins,” said Magnus. Ahriman was surprised to hear sadness in his voice, as though he had seen things he would rather not have seen. “The thing it is, what it wished to be, and all the stages of that long evolutionary road.”
The wolf stopped beside Magnus and he nodded towards it. An unspoken discourse seemed to pass between them. Ahriman caught a knowing glance from Ohthere Wyrdmake. Despite his reservations, he felt the urge to nurture the nascent kinship between them.
“Away with you!” shouted Phosis T’kar, shooing it. “Damned wolves.”
Magnus smiled. “I told you, there are no wolves on Fenris.”
Now, even prior to that, there's roughly a page and a half of Magnus more-than-heavily-hinting that the wolves in question are genetically engineered - and not, at all, wolves. In fact, he strongly suggests that they're, in part, the original colonists of Fenris, adapted to the environment. I know that theory was brought up before in this thread, but I wasn't aware if the fact that it was postulated in the book by a Primarch had been mentioned or not.
I just read the book again. And I saw that Ahriman really became evil at the end sorry to drive off topic. But anything Ahriman says after the great crusade = insanity. it is one of the levels of insanity if i recall.
purplefood wrote:No it says he is sad...
Nothing about them being human before.
Well, he clearly says they're not wolves.
As for the bit about them being human, as I said, that's roughly a page and a half of text prior to what I quoted. I'd post it, but knowing how GW can be about copyrighted material...I'm reluctant to do more than I already have.
Lord of battles wrote:I kinda Exopheric's veiw of this; what if the wolves are daemons of the 'god of the storms' a warp based entity that the colonists began to belive in during old night? they saw the preditors of fenris and began to view them as the god of the storms minions?
this would also explain the powers of the rune priests.
It took a million years for the Eldar to create Slaneesh, i doubt a single planet of colonists could have enough spiritual influence to will their own warp god, however minor, into being
i think the wolves might be genetically engineered creatures. taking Dog and Wolf DNA as a base, but changed so they no longer could be called as related to the wolves of earth. or they are possably a native species of Fenris that was altered in some way to suit the original colonists for reasons unknown.
i suspect the wolves are natural Blanks as a result of the engineering. hence the reason they are repulsive to the Prospero Familiars.
The blank theory is good, but it doesn't explain how Othar Wyrdmake kept one as a pet. And why the wolves didn't act like the real blanks, the Sisters of Silence, did in the battle of Prospero?
Right now there doesn't seem to be anything to rule out the theory of being a highly divergent descendants of an early Hive Fleet, or genetically altered humans, or genetically altered autochtonous lifeform, or even being possessed by daemonic beasts.
The phrase "there are no wolves in Fenris.."
Could be a reference to a secret shame of the SW, their first attempts to control an otherwise fickle warp powers if you will. Thus the wulfen kin are the reminders of their failures as well as they struggle with the burden of using and needing psyker powers while also holding at bay the "wulfen" within.
The wolf topic came up on Warseer a while back. One additional item was mentioned in that thread that hasn't been brought up here -
I don't remember the source off-hand, but Space Wolves are more resistant to mutation than non-Space Wolves - aside from the effects of the Canis Helix. It is believed that this is the result of the Canis Helix mutation basically making the recipient more resistant to any mutation other than the ones that the Helix imposes, but the exact reason for this is not known for certain.
What I suggested as a possibility in that thread was that the planet Fenris itself has evolved to protect itself from the predations of the warp. This would have included -
- Influencing the residents so that they were more resistant to warp-influenced mutation (something attributed to the Canis Helix instead by an ignorant Imperium)
- Evolving a predator that was naturally suited to hunt down and defeat warp entities that somehow materialized on Fenris. Given what we see in the novel based on the interactions between the wolves and the Thousand Sons' pet demons, the "wolves" could definitely fill this role.
Obviously if this was actually the case, then both the Imperium and the Chaos Powers would be largely ignorant. The Imperium would have studied the planet to death and put Fenrisian Wolves at all corners of the galaxy. The Chaos Powers would have blown the planet up long ago due to the threat it represented. The handful of members of the Thousand Sons who might be aware presumably wouldn't have said anything because they're not inclined to. Magnus doesn't care. And Ahriman would rather have the opportunity to study the situation without having to worry about Chaos Powers trying to destroy the planet.
Personally, I saw it as an extension of old Space Wolves fluff.
First, Magnus says that there are no wolves on Fenris and hints at changes made to their DNA, possibly by the original colonists. Also, I vaguely remember a hint that the Canis Helix may be a feature of Fenrisians, rather than the geneseed of the marines.
Secondly, we have the thirteenth legion and the mention in the old Eye of Terror campaign that suggests that Space Wolves are resistant to the effects of Chaos because they start to mutate into Wulfen, to some extent protecting them.
I would suspect that the original settlers had difficulties surviving on the deathworld of Fenris, so they genetically improved themselves, creating the Canis Helix. At the time, they didn't realise that the genetic mutation would cause the effects commonly described for Space Wolves, ie. turning into werewolves.
I think that a lot of the problems the Space Wolves have with their genetics is due to the interaction between the Canis Helix and the geneseed, which can cause a rapid mutation (longer fangs, more body hair, wildness, usw.). If the mutation is linked to the warp, it would be expected that most natives of Fenris do not live long enough or encounter enough warp energy to mutate, but the long-lived marines do.
Furthermore, it may be that an event in Fenris' history lead to some kind of warp interaction, maybe daemon worship, or planetary problems similar to those of the Dark Angels. This could be a secret that the Space Wolves don't like to talk about, even though all traces of the worship may be long gone.
Therefore, the wolves themselves were created by a catastophic event at some point in Fenris' history, although they are self-sufficient as a population now. Maybe around the warp, the wolves become bigger and nastier, the better to resist the problems.
Drefan wrote:Personally, I saw it as an extension of old Space Wolves fluff.
First, Magnus says that there are no wolves on Fenris and hints at changes made to their DNA, possibly by the original colonists. Also, I vaguely remember a hint that the Canis Helix may be a feature of Fenrisians, rather than the geneseed of the marines.
Eh. Official fluff states that the Canis Helix is imparted during the drinking from the Cup of Wulfen or whatever during an aspirant's initiation rights, and serves as a genetic "primer" in a sense. Definitely not something native to Fenris, definitely not something Fenrisians are born with.
It has to be the best way to get rid of an donkey-cave. 
All in good fun right?