I've been sitting here going back and forth on whether to use Obliterators or Havocs. 3 Obliterators cost 225, while 5 havocs with missile launchers cost 155. That's a 70 point difference (3+ Khorne Berzekers!). It seems like the Obliterators would be good for armies that have a lot of vehicles, while the Havocs are good for everything else. I realize Obliterators can move a little bit and fire too, but really you aren't going to be moving them a whole lot since they are your heavy weps. Is there any reason to take Obliterators instead of Havocs when you're going against an army with very few vehicles (or none, like Tyranids).

Survivability? Hidden powerfist?

Oh yah true dat. I never really looked at their wounds and saves lol. I was just looking at their weapons and point cost. Ignore this post

One should strive to not put them in a position to be killed by hidden powerfists.
Else, they bring good versitility to the heavy support section, you pay for it, but it's a decent buy if that flexibility is what you are looking for.

Havocs are more specialized....(IMO aka Quad Autocannon Transport busting).

Or qual ml as they ignore av3, instakill t4, and shred mc.

Havocs work best when oblits or a defiler protects them from being assaulted. Point for point they outgun oblits, but they need another chaos heavy support to protect them.

The thing about oblits is that unlike havocs, they're everything: long-range AT, short-range relentless melta, MC-hunters, even (in this edition) plasma cannons for heavy infantry hunting. I strongly recommend oblits, because they never don't have the perfect weapon for a situation. Also, 2+/5++ save and 2 wounds makes them point-for-point only slightly less tough than havocs (I'm assuming you pay for the extra five havocs to use as ablative wounds).

I agree with the above poster.
I always found oblits good as a jack of all trades HW unit. Especially good in tournaments or round robin games or whatever where you werent sure what you were going to face.

Just decide how many Oblits you want to field in each heavy slot. I find 2 enough for the Twin-linking most of their weapons have.

I've really moved away from Oblits; they were a crutch. I used them to help cover both ends of the spectrum: dealing with hordes and mass heavy armor. As I got better and my army list became balanced, Oblits seemed to do less and less until eventually I was only Deepstriking them to use their Multi-Meltas. At that point I might as well be using Termicide or Raptors.

To answer to OP's question: no, not really. If you don't need them for multiple jobs they'll never be cost efficient. If you have a balanced army list anyway, you won't need them for multiple jobs. I'd go with the quad Missile Launcher Havocs.

My oblits always seem to die without doing much as everyone knows to target them. Whenever I have used Havocs I've always been really happy with the amount of bottom kicking they can unleash and how long they last (much easier to hide in a building somewhere than oblits). I almost always run quad AC's and will often use quad HB's as well (if facing hordes).

Though I do agree that quad ML's is a good all round unit.

I personally wouldn't go for quad ML, but it's not for tactical reasons... anti-spikey SMurf Devs syndrome.
Edit: and on a similar note, Oblits are UNIQUE to the chaos heavy support section, IMO a one up on the 'pro' side of things to use them.

As for SilverMK2's comments.
Everyone knows to target them, yes. But that's a good thing. With T4 suseptable to being ID'ed they can suck up str 8 fire, which is suedo-armor saturation.

If they are dying, they are sucking up firepower and allowing other things to live.
Do you notice a difference when you go with Havocs instead? Like other stuff dying faster (ie transports)?
It just seems wierd to see one going for a different choice and everything becoming rainbows and lolipops.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts the point cost of a ML and AC will drop to about 10 points each on 5th edition havocs. Our codex is comming soon, right after DE, Nercons, Tau, Eldar, Orcs, and a few loyalist chapters.

Even after a price drop I'll be willing to bet half the chaos players out there would still depend on oblits as a cruch no matter how pont inefficient it is to use a swiss army knife for vehicle cracking.

For me it's a weight of fire vs flexibility choice. Havocs provide the weight of fire, and oblits provide flexible fire that can target multiple types of targets. Oblits are expensive though, and can flail miserably quite easily.

Termicide > Oblits

Havoks haven their advantages and their drawbacks, but as stated before, you can either protect them with a CC dred (try to aviod if you can, but it is a rather cheap option) or a defilier (defiliers are NEVER a bad option for this)

Anything your Oblits can do with their >9000 weapons you can do with other selections that you need to take anyway, don't waste the points/HS slot on sniper oblits, and deepstriking Termis are both more cost effective and (from what I have noticed) more successful then any Oblits will ever be.

Oblits are fine for Apoc, but outside of that, they really aren't THAT great (compared to the other selections).

So... if I wanted a plasma cannon where would I go?
I'm sure the Dread is unreliable, so that leaves..............?

Daemon-Archon Ren, you are discounting the flexibility they bring. Sure you pay for it, but I guess the question is, do you tailor your lists for your fights?

Oblits are not supposed to DS, so Termicides are good in their role because that is pretty much their only role.
Termicides are cost effective, but variable in performance. Oblits contributing at ALL times in the game offer much more stability to the list.

Ooh, Sanctjud's playing the bad guy. This'll be fun.

Sancjud wrote:...to being ID'ed they can suck up S8 fire, which is suedo-armor saturation.

Either the Oblits are Deepstriking, in which case they aren't providing armor saturation, or they're sitting in the back field, in which case the Havocs are more durable. The Havocs can lose more wounds before they start losing weapons, and most weapons wound the Obliterators and Havocs at the same rate.

Sanctjud wrote:Sure you pay for it, but I guess the question is, do you tailor your lists for your fights?

By not taking a swiss army knife, you are tailoring your list? Armies that don't have swiss army knives, like the Eldar and Tau, can only ever tailor their lists? No, taking a variety of specialists is almost always more cost effective than taking an army of generalists.

Sanctjud wrote:Oblits are not supposed to DS

Then how do you use anything but the Lascannon and Plasmacannon? Lascannons can be bought else where for cheaper, and although we can't get Plasmacannons otherwise, 2 for 150 points is a poor deal.

Ah, but oblits can also fire on the move to get better angles. And while termicide is much less useful if you can't DS for some reason, Oblits retain options- and can take the DS if it is advantageous.

Oblits offer flexibility but are pricey. Havoks and terminators are more specialized. Pick based on the role you need. No more really needs be said.

Dirty loyalist talking now:

Lists with obliterators I tend to decimate. Why? Oblits have a tendency to pop when hit by a lascannon. This reduces their anti-vehicle abilities to near-nothing, letting my vindicators and Land Raider have free reign. Hell, I have had major success in killing them with CCW and PF scouts because of one S8 attack geting through.

8 havocs in cover make my rhinoes cry, and usually for cheaper too.

From what I have fought, the Havocs do more and cost less. I would take them.

Sanctjud wrote:As for SilverMK2's comments.
Everyone knows to target them, yes. But that's a good thing. With T4 suseptable to being ID'ed they can suck up str 8 fire, which is suedo-armor saturation.

If they are dying, they are sucking up firepower and allowing other things to live.
Do you notice a difference when you go with Havocs instead? Like other stuff dying faster (ie transports)?
It just seems wierd to see one going for a different choice and everything becoming rainbows and lolipops.

I may have to repaint my havocs in rainbow warrior colours

However, to address your comments (with the proviso that I don't actually play all that much, so it may simply be a statistical bump):

1) While oblits have armour on their side, I find that sticking Havocs in cover has pretty much the same effect most of the time. A squad of 5 oblits in cover can be quite difficult to kill.
2) I have not noticed any particular increase in destroyed transports etc when I take havocs, and find a drastic increase in how much I kill with havocs Vs Oblits, so overall a win for the havocs on this point for me.
3) I think the versatility of oblits is offset by the fact that I don't get as many dice to throw each turn, which means that due to my rubbish dice rolling skills I almost always miss with them

I just about always DS my oblits off of icon-toting Rhinos. They plus Termicide tend to make up the majority of my firebase when playing Chaos, and the ability of Oblits to provide close range armor busting or long(er) range suppression fire, and to assault as necessary, outperforms the stationary, predominantly AV11-12 busting firebase of equivalent points in Havoks.

If all you're doing is shooting at rhinos or marines in cover, then min Havok squads with ACs are going to outperform Oblits doing the same. For the sheer amount of optionality on a more durable chassis, however, I'm willing to pay the small premium for the Oblit over the Havoc. Whether it's a Land Raider, a Medusa in back corner behind a building, or a blob of Orks, Oblits can perform in a good capacity. Can't say the same about a Havoc squad.

@Brother-Thunder:

Oblits shot at lascannons should be oblits shot at who are in cover, in which case they get a free 4+ cover save.
In addition, that is a one lascannon not shot at a Dread/Rhino/LR.

Anti-tank abilities to near-nothing
I’m sorry, but that can’t be a serious statement. What list are you talking about because I know experienced players do not rely solely on obliterators for all their anti-tank needs.

Havocs do different things and cost less because they don’t have the same kind of flexibility the oblits have.

As for being a dirty loyalist, it depends… Edward Marines or Jacob Marines .

@Darkhound:

‘Bad guy’? Now who stood who up? J/K.

As for durability issues.
Havocs are more durable but exposed turn 1.
Oblits do not need to be. They can move and shoot… which means they can hide behind BLoS stuff and then move to commit.

Then there’s the parking lot issue that can block Havoc and Oblit lanes of fire, but at least oblits can move to get better lanes.

As for “tailoring” that was a poorly thought out sentence. What I had meant was tailoring units for a role. If one does that, obviously they would side with more role oriented unit as havocs. What I’m assuming is that the body of troops are set up to take on armored targets.

As for the last point.
LC are weapons of last resort. It’s the PC that gets used often. I do not need to commit turn 1. I do not need to realistically BE-THERE until later in the game. So pot shots with what ever is welcomed and when the time comes they will have whatever weapon that is needed where it is needed midboard.
It’s not 2 PC’s for that cost, it’s the whole package… if they are not useful then the LC will be.

With oblits you are not completely neutered with night fight or dawn of war. You keep mobile (IMO static is death). Back to DS, they shouldn’t but should you ‘need’ to it’s an option.

Havocs and oblits are both good, why not take both? Havocs (with AC’s) are (as said) great at Rhino busting and just a good generalist weapon.

@SilverMK2:

1) I’m talking about the opponent tempted to use Str 8+ weaponry on them as a means to suedo-armor saturation. I don’t think many will go to lascannon equivalents to take out 5 Marines in cover (unless it’s a template weapon….and ignores cover lets just say).
2) It just doesn’t seem to add up. There is a balance to things. Oblits should be attracting str 8+ weaponry. If they are dying so easily, then that firepower should be withering to whatever else they are trained at if the Oblits are no longer there. It just looks like that aspect just disappears when havocs are taken instead from your description, /shrug.
3) Heh, works both ways, but I understand, bucket-o-dice is always a favorite.

As I say, I don't play a great deal, so perhaps over time I will see results as you suggest.

I'm not sure why it has to be a this or that issue.

I find that they both work well together. 4x AC Havocs provide the sheer volume of shots to take out the light armor spam that seems so common these days and the Oblits provide the low AP shots or the high S shots (or both) against the targets that the AC struggles against (AV13/14 and 2+ saves).

Sanctjud wrote:@Brother-Thunder:

Oblits shot at lascannons should be oblits shot at who are in cover, in which case they get a free 4+ cover save.
In addition, that is a one lascannon not shot at a Dread/Rhino/LR.

Anti-tank abilities to near-nothing
I’m sorry, but that can’t be a serious statement. What list are you talking about because I know experienced players do not rely solely on obliterators for all their anti-tank needs.

Havocs do different things and cost less because they don’t have the same kind of flexibility the oblits have.

As for being a dirty loyalist, it depends… Edward Marines or Jacob Marines .

4 up or no, it does not stop them from rolling a 3 or below

Generally, the chaos players in my area also run land raiders, vindicators, etc. for ranged AV. I just happen to blow them up first turn most of the time.

Havocs also cost less, and can do amost as much. Hence why I would take them if I were running chaos.

I am neither team Jacob or Team Edward. I am a codex-adhering Imperial Fist, yes.

I was indicating that the 4+ cover is better than the 5++ flat.
Where as Havocs don't even factor into the issue because they are not gonna get shot at by lascannon equivalents honestly.

Ah, so you are team Isabella.

Sanctjud wrote:I was indicating that the 4+ cover is better than the 5++ flat.
Where as Havocs don't even factor into the issue because they are not gonna get shot at by lascannon equivalents honestly.

Ah, so you are team Isabella.

No, the havocs are not. Hence why they make good heavy weapon platforms, they are not shot at as much.

and yes, the 4 up cover can block some shots, but they cannot block ALL of them!! My philosophy on killing Oblits. That and my assassin scout squad w/ a power fist does wonders against oblit squads.

My experience with oblits:

They are very versatile, and can always put some firepower on what I need to take out.

Sometimes I deep strike them to melta something or double tap plasma

Other times I deploy them in cover and snipe. (This is my more common use of them lately)

I have found that they are fragile, not individually, but as a unit they can be wiped out fairly quickly. When they are on the board they are a priority target. This has helped my vehicles survive when I deploy the oblits in cover and the enemy devotes a lot of his missile launchers/lascannons/etc to taking them out.

I have tried everything to deep strike them and have them survive (and I have even managed to do it a couple of times), but when they are close, the enemy will concentrate on wiping them out and has usually been successful. Once again this has benefitted my other troops as the oblits suck up a lot of shooting before they go down.

I only use 1 squad of 3 oblits.

As far as Havoks, I like the idea and I'm going to try a squad with 4 heavy bolters against the orks soon. I might try some autocannons or missile launchers against MEQ. What I like is I can outfit them like a regular CSM squad with a hidden power fist. If I'm not mistaken, you don't have to trade your chainsword for a heavy weapon and they can still fight as well in assault as a normal CSM.

Unless you consistently find yourself shooting 5 or fewer Orks in cover, you should really give your Havocs the missile launchers. Direct hits will rip apart the horde, and even scatters can be favorable, and you still have S8 utility vs nobs and vehicles.

@Brother-Thunder:
I think you are misunderstanding my point and I of yours.
Oblits attracting heavy weapons is GOOD for the rest of the list.
Havocs not attracting that shooting is BAD for the Transports.

While Havocs will attract other kinds of shooting that are better off downing them than the Oblits.

As for:

That and my assassin scout squad w/ a power fist does wonders against oblit squads.

Details?
Opponents constantly leaving them in outflank charge range?
You can not first turn charge with scouts unless you have Shrike in the list...
The other possibility is if you use the Storm, in which case I would agree that they will do a good number on Oblits, but you are using similar amount of points and one more FoC to deal with them.

sourclams wrote:Unless you consistently find yourself shooting 5 or fewer Orks in cover, you should really give your Havocs the missile launchers. Direct hits will rip apart the horde, and even scatters can be favorable, and you still have S8 utility vs nobs and vehicles.

Counterpoint: Direct hits have the least impact on a horde since it must be centered on one model. Scatters hit more guys.

sourclams wrote:Unless you consistently find yourself shooting 5 or fewer Orks in cover, you should really give your Havocs the missile launchers. Direct hits will rip apart the horde, and even scatters can be favorable, and you still have S8 utility vs nobs and vehicles.

I wouldn't mind using missile launchers but I have a bunch of heavy bolters laying around and I would have to buy some missile launchers. I may try it though.

Imagine if partials still existed, lawl.

When the models hit the tabletop, there is inevitably going to be some clump of Boyz that had to go around a bit of terrain or got too close to another squad or deployed/fell out of a transport. In my personal experience it's usually possible to hit 5 or more models directly (although I'd call the range something like 4-7) and scatters deviating onto the other, more dispersed part of the unit yield fewer hits.

Theoretically, I agree that if an infinite field of boyz is packed cheek to jowl front to back, then scatters will yield as many or more hits. Practically though, hits are more favorable.

Plus there's actively clumping them via the Lash of Submission and Tank Shock.

My experience with blits vs tau witchhunters orks nids necrons eldar...

tau: i find that within two turns (sometimes first turn) ive lost the blits i take, sometimes as many as 5 in a 1750 list, this is not as rare as you may think when 2-3 broadside squads are raining fire...

witchhunters: blits? hahaha what a joke, the awsome tank with the missle launcher takes em out every time (sos cant remeber name)

orks: in 1750 pt games its almost not worth it for me because i run noises i cream them anyway

nids: this is one time whn theyre actually useful, having the ability to wipe the lights and heavys is super handy

necrons: with some luck you can take out a monolith but part from that theyre a waste as again my noises tend to clean house

eldar: i find that i tend to snipe with them and this means im better of with havoks with las or ac

experience with havoks....

Tau: mate of mine hates it when ive got 2 las 2 ac in a rhino, i maul pretty much everything that is stupid enought to stumble into range

witchhunters: havnt really had much experience but what i do know is that ac's are epic vs penitents

Orcs: when the ork comes a nokin the hbs go sockin

nids: not really any experience but i imagine that acs would clean house

necrons: again (im an ac spammer) these guys will wreak havok (pardon the pun) with necron defenses, and ultimately if needed you can field las for anti monolith work

eldar: 2 ml 2 ac is a brutal combo for wiping these guys

I think it’s hard to compare the 2 from a generalist point of view as the strengths and weaknesses form a surface level point of view is pretty obvious; it’s like comparing apples and oranges (or Oblits and Havocs). I think this discussion would be more helpful in terms of tactical discussion if specific optimal configurations were discussed and compared (with army list synergy taken into account).

For examples:@225 points
3 Oblits vs 10 x Havoc with 4x ACs in rhino

Man, talk about split reactions. Half say Obliterators, half say Havocs. Guess that answers my question - both are good depending on what and how you use them.

That's always the answer. The real question is what are the nuts and bolts of how you use them.

Sanctjud wrote:@Brother-Thunder:
I think you are misunderstanding my point and I of yours.
Oblits attracting heavy weapons is GOOD for the rest of the list.
Havocs not attracting that shooting is BAD for the Transports.

While Havocs will attract other kinds of shooting that are better off downing them than the Oblits.

As for:

That and my assassin scout squad w/ a power fist does wonders against oblit squads.

Details?
Opponents constantly leaving them in outflank charge range?
You can not first turn charge with scouts unless you have Shrike in the list...
The other possibility is if you use the Storm, in which case I would agree that they will do a good number on Oblits, but you are using similar amount of points and one more FoC to deal with them.

Yes, you can charge turn 1 without shrike. 5 scouts in a land speeder storm. Storm makes its scout move 24 inches up, while being 12 inches away. move 12, disembark 2, assault 6. Across the map turn 1. as you said, yes.

Also, I rarely use my fast attack slots. Storms taking them up is just fine

DarkHound wrote:If you don't need them for multiple jobs they'll never be cost efficient. If you have a balanced army list anyway, you won't need them for multiple jobs. I'd go with the quad Missile Launcher Havocs.

So, instead of the thing that does multiple jobs, you take...the thing that does multiple jobs?

Sanctjud wrote:So... if I wanted a plasma cannon where would I go?

untill november, you'd go Dark Eldar and take Disintegrators or go some other army. If you want Plasma Cannons, CSM is not the best list to go.

Sanctjud wrote:
Daemon-Archon Ren, you are discounting the flexibility they bring. Sure you pay for it, but I guess the question is, do you tailor your lists for your fights?

Not really, because their 'flexibility' isn't really all that great to be honest... I can pay 225 points for a 6 wound(3man) team that will be primarily anti-tank. If you are ever in a situation where the Twinlinked Plasma-guns/Melta guns will ever be good, then you opponent is doing it wrong. The multi-melta works in the same fasion, because honestly, being able to move 6"(max) when them vehicles can move 12" (min) should mean you are never getting in melta range. Sure, you can use the multimeltas (and in some instances, the meltaguns) on walkers or vehicles that are charging you, but even so, that means that your priority targets are saved for a turn to protect something that will get utterly obliterated (pardon the pun) by a "second-thought". In all reality the only thing the oblits bring to the table are moving lascannons that also have flamers to 'protect' them from combat(the plasma cannons and the powerfists are second thought, as the plasma cannons aren't that great and the fists will mostlikely not hit anything). The havoks are cheaper, provide a greater amount of fire and ultimately will make their points up more frequently (and make a far greater amount of points) then the Oblits.

Now, their durability is nice if people are foolish enought to devote an ungodly amount of firepower to them, but if you are playing a smart opponent, they can handle you oblits with at most 150 points of firepower, and even then, they can typically afford to ignore 3 lascannon shots (one of them statistically missing each time) for 225 points.

Granted, you can spend 280+ points on a Chaos Sorcerer to make them "extremely flexible" but in all reality, is it really worth it?

@Daemon-Archon Ren:

untill november, you'd go Dark Eldar and take Disintegrators or go some other army. If you want Plasma Cannons, CSM is not the best list to go.

-I'm sure you understand what I had meant. They are different units that bring different things. I want the presence of plasma cannon(s) in my list and that's where I get them.

I can pay 225 points for a 6 wound(3man) team that will be primarily anti-tank.

I guess this is what I'm getting at.
You say their flexibility isn't great because you assume that oblits are in the list for the sole reason of anti-tank. You play that way, but not others.

If you are ever in a situation where the Twinlinked Plasma-guns/Melta guns will ever be good, then you opponent is doing it wrong.

So...they times they deepstrike in and getting the 'first strike' is the opponent 'doing it wrong'?
The TLPG/MG have been very useful for me when I use the oblits as a second wave following behind the Rhino wall.

The multi-melta works in the same fasion, because honestly, being able to move 6"(max) when them vehicles can move 12" (min) should mean you are never getting in melta range.

The MM are a sort of defensive weapon on Oblits. It's there to discourage approach...and generally most stuff wants to get closer to you, so it's not a huge issue of 'never getting in melta range'.

In all reality the only thing the oblits bring to the table are moving lascannons..............they can typically afford to ignore 3 lascannon shots (one of them statistically missing each time) for 225 points.

Which IMO, is the last thing you bring them for. You take Lascannon shots when you have to, not when you want to. Again, you pay to have options as the game progesses, you don't pay the points for just a moving lascannon platform.

plasma cannons aren't that great

It's a chaos army, so...(sadly)...lash does come up once in a while.

will make their points

Not gonna get into this too much, but it's 5th ed, and with mission objectives in mind, it's not about making points back these days.

Interesting post D-A Ren, you're one of the first people I know to discount the power of the Plasma Cannon. My experience has been people love them and that they're just as important as the Lascannons for Obliterators even without Lash.

People think of it as an anti-horde only weapon but it really is the best way to deal with Terminators and multiple units that rely on FnP. This means things like Plague Marines, Super Gants and those annoying S. Priests buried in BA squads.

Oblits just out-class Havocs which is a shame really, maybe if a new book comes out they might get some fancy rules.

Well to be frank, havocs have their uses.
Posters have detailed why they are contender for Heavy support choices.

Of the reasons here are a few:
-Higher model count.
-Lower Minimum cost.
-Higher Rate of fire.
-Access to ML or AC.
-Backfield setup so doesn't clog the middle.
-Lower perceived threat.

minigun762 wrote:Interesting post D-A Ren, you're one of the first people I know to discount the power of the Plasma Cannon. My experience has been people love them and that they're just as important as the Lascannons for Obliterators even without Lash.

The problem with plasma cannons on oblits, even with out the potential "gets hot", is that you are going to get a MAXIMUM of 7 models under the 3" template, assuming you don't scatter and you have lashed them PERFECTLY. If you want to assume "best case scenarios" why not do the same with the (practically infinate)" battle cannon on your defilier which is costing you 75 points less, has much higher durability (and versitility), and can IK most units, still piercing most armor, and hitting a max potential of 33+?
Its hard to justify that difference especially as the defilier + the Havoks (the way to get the same number of heavy shots of havoks vs oblits) costs the same as the (4) Oblits (300 points) and uses the same number of HS slots (where the H+D combo is MUCH more powerful)

minigun762 wrote:People think of it as an anti-horde only weapon but it really is the best way to deal with Terminators and multiple units that rely on FnP. This means things like Plague Marines, Super Gants and those annoying S. Priests buried in BA squads.

Actually, for Termis, its much worse... Your max total targets drops to 5 (due to base size increase) and there are other, more effective ways of dealing with termis (plasma MSU with Plague marines comes to mind) if they are really that much of a threat, but again, if you have the Havoc/Defilier combo instead of the Obilts, as already stated, you are putting out a much higher wound count, as for your FnP fears, the battle cannon makes short work of all the units you mentioned.

Sanctjud wrote:@Daemon-Archon Ren:
-I'm sure you understand what I had meant. They are different units that bring different things. I want the presence of plasma cannon(s) in my list and that's where I get them.

And my point is that you are spending way too many points to get that plasma cannon, you easily discounted dreds, but in all honesty, they only have a 1 in 6 chance of not shooting (thats the turn you "pop smoke") and they have that same 1 in 6 chance to fire their weapons twice! (which, if you replace the DCCW with a ML gives you 2 7ap2 blasts and 2 8 ap3/4 ap6 blasts) for 105 points! (and its taking an ELITES choice instead of the precious HS slot). However, if you are worried about shooting yourself with firefrenzy... L2CD

Sanctjud wrote:
I guess this is what I'm getting at.
You say their flexibility isn't great because you assume that oblits are in the list for the sole reason of anti-tank. You play that way, but not others.

My point is that their major aspects is the fact that they are anti-tank, in which there are better options. They have some anti infantry, but again, there are better options.

Sanctjud wrote:
So...they times they deepstrike in and getting the 'first strike' is the opponent 'doing it wrong'?

Sanctjud wrote:Oblits are not supposed to DS,

I'm confused...

Sanctjud wrote:
The TLPG/MG have been very useful for me when I use the oblits as a second wave following behind the Rhino wall.

You must have extremely good SnP rolls or you must move your rhinos rather slow for this to be effective, and either way, if you have a "Rhino Wall" don't the guys inside have plenty of special weapons (I certainly hope so...)

Sanctjud wrote:The MM are a sort of defensive weapon on Oblits. It's there to discourage approach...and generally most stuff wants to get closer to you, so it's not a huge issue of 'never getting in melta range'.

Most stuff that can kill oblits can either kill them from outside of the melta range, or kill them after they miss their MM shots... either way, the things that require getting close cost significantly less then the Oblit squad, and will typically nuke them out of existance long before those oblits made their points back.

Sanctjud wrote:Which IMO, is the last thing you bring them for. You take Lascannon shots when you have to, not when you want to. Again, you pay to have options as the game progesses, you don't pay the points for just a moving lascannon platform.

if the lascannon is the last thing you are using them for, then effectively, you are spending 75 points for twin-linked weapons that you can give to normal troops (even cult troops) and/or a situational multi-melta/plasma cannon.

Sanctjud wrote:It's a chaos army, so...(sadly)...lash does come up once in a while.

Its a chaos army, so...(awesomely)...we can put battle cannons on our super-walkers.

Sanctjud wrote:
Not gonna get into this too much, but it's 5th ed, and with mission objectives in mind, it's not about making points back these days.

Actually, yeah it is... I've yet to see a tournment where VPs didn't attest for at least something, in normal games, VPs constitute the "Moral Victory" (as Tiehammer runs rampant) and if you aren't making your points back on units, then that means you are literally wasting points (that 675 points on HS could have gone into more troops, or that 300 points on oblits that killed about ~150 points of stuff could have gone into the Havoc/Defilier combo that killed over 400+ points easy, and got those troops off the objective!)

Again, not saying that Oblits can't perform well with a bit of luck (I once took a squad that killed almost all the armor on the board by turn 4) but point wise, and competitively, they are not as good as the havoks. They are fun as HELL to play, but when asking which one is more "tactically advantageous" the oblits, sadly, fall short.

@Daemon-Archon Ren

Wall-o-text: just to note (as I do within the wall) this is not intended to be confrontational, I’m just replying.

And my point is that you are spending way too many points to get that plasma cannon, you easily discounted dreds,

I wanted the presence of the plasma cannon, doesn’t mean it’s gonna be spam shot the whole game. I don’t use Dread with PC’s, I’d use them w/ MLs or 2DCCWs.
In addition, IIRC, you can not do the pop smoke trick.
So it ends up being 1/3 chance of it not doing what you want. In addition, “L2CD”, sadly I don’t know what that means, learn to calm down? I worry not about fire frenzy hitting my own stuff, I only worry about it not shooting what I want ( some play the frenzy rule as turn around while others go for the weapon arc interpretation).

My point is that their major aspects is the fact that they are anti-tank, in which there are better options. They have some anti infantry, but again, there are better options.

And I take them because I want both in one FoC.
That’s the issue. Specializing vs. Flexibility. Neither is better, they are different and both work in my experience and from all those that use oblits.
I’m not saying oblits are the only way to go, just to keep that in mind. All of the heavy support are good. I like them, they do well for me, I think I’ve had a pretty balanced view about them without going into fanboi raging about how good they are.
As Darkhound has said, I guess I’m playing the ‘bad guy’, but I’m just noting my experiences with them. To be doubly sure, I’m not trying to be rude or confrontational, I’m just responding to points.

Sanctjud wrote:
So...they times they deepstrike in and getting the 'first strike' is the opponent 'doing it wrong'?

Sanctjud wrote:Oblits are not supposed to DS,

I'm confused...

I’m sorry, there should be a “some” in front of ‘times’ in that statement.
In addition, I do not Deepstrike them on a consistant basis, I prefer them to contribute turn 1 and on. The previous statement was a direct response to your suggestion that the opponent is sucking when the twin-linked weapons are doing well. The opponent can’t ‘do it wrong’ when the oblits actually come in and pop something.

You must have extremely good SnP rolls or you must move your rhinos rather slow for this to be effective, and either way, if you have a "Rhino Wall" don't the guys inside have plenty of special weapons (I certainly hope so...)

Yes, the troopers have much special weapons. The oblits either add to this or provide more cover fire. It just depends on what is across the board. My SnP rolls are all over the place, but If I need to run them, I will. I don’t know why you’d have to assume that I have good SnP rolls, a second wave does not mean commitment a single turn after the first wave commits.

Most stuff that can kill oblits can either kill them from outside of the melta range, or kill them after they miss their MM shots... either way, the things that require getting close cost significantly less then the Oblit squad, and will typically nuke them out of existance long before those oblits made their points back.

So, I don’t use terrain and rhinos to my advantage to block line of sight? Stuff killing them at long range is not targeting my rhinos=good.

if the lascannon is the last thing you are using them for, then effectively, you are spending 75 points for twin-linked weapons that you can give to normal troops (even cult troops) and/or a situational multi-melta/plasma cannon.

No, you are paying the points for all of those weapons. LC’s are last on the list with respect to using them on a consistent basis. In my experience, the LC’s are used turn 1, with MM or PC, turn 2, then all of the above but not LC’s turn 3.
Needing to use them vs. wanting to use them does not mean the LC is not gonna be used. The oblit is flexible enough to have a weapon for a particular target you need shot at.
Oblits are reactive to the opponent, whereas the havocs are tailored to targets depending on weapon chosen irrespective of the opponent.

Its a chaos army, so...(awesomely)...we can put battle cannons on our super-walkers.

The battle cannon has issues with 2+ armor while the plasma cannon does not. The defiler has its own pros and cons. But I thought we were focusing on Havocs vs. Oblits. I had introduced Lash as something benefiting Oblits that make Plasma Cannons good. I was not joking or making light of things and I don’t understand why you are jokingly mirroring my quote to suggest something that I don’t see supporting the point.
Battle Cannons are not better than plasma cannons, they different and good in their own way.

Sanctjud wrote:
Not gonna get into this too much, but it's 5th ed, and with mission objectives in mind, it's not about making points back these days.


VPs are for tie breakers in my area.
I don’t concern myself with it. What happens, happens. I need only one more objective than my opponent to win, loosely, to me, it means I care not what I kill so long as I have it in the end.
And with force concentration, coupled with a fast list, I am frequent in situations where things do not make up their points back…those points back are distributed to the whole army.

As for going back to Oblits with this point, I don’t need them to make their points back, I only need them to use their guns on targets I want shot at. To be perfectly honest, if they only take out a rhino and is critical to my getting to the objective and holding it, I’m perfectly happy.

As for competitive, they have been for me. Personally (though I guess I need to restate that it’s just my experience so take it worth a grain of salt), I see more competitive lists/batreps/tourneys with oblits around more than havocs.

Sanctjud wrote:
I wanted the presence of the plasma cannon, doesn’t mean it’s gonna be spam shot the whole game. I don’t use Dread with PC’s, I’d use them w/ MLs or 2DCCWs.
In addition, IIRC, you can not do the pop smoke trick.

Popping smoke happens in the movement phase, so you can do this. Also, ML is a free upgrade that is independent of the PC upgrade...

Sanctjud wrote:
So it ends up being 1/3 chance of it not doing what you want. In addition, “L2CD”, sadly I don’t know what that means, learn to calm down? I worry not about fire frenzy hitting my own stuff, I only worry about it not shooting what I want ( some play the frenzy rule as turn around while others go for the weapon arc interpretation).

Pivot towards the closest visible unit means pivot AFTER determining the closest visible, so if you are behind the dred, you are safe (playing it other ways then this is like playing with CSM LRs having Power of the Machine spirit or something, its a blatant rules change) L2CD is "Learn to Chaos Dred" so in reality, 1/6th of the time it does what you don't want it to do, and another 1/6 of the time it gets double the shots (where as, Oblits doesn't work 1/6 of the time, and when the oblits fail, you have the potential to take a wound...)

Sanctjud wrote:
And I take them because I want both in one FoC.

But in order to have them at the same level of firepower as the others (and for the same points) you are still using 2 FoC slots, and you can use those same two FoC (and equal points) to get MORE firepower and MORE versatility (which is what I am saying)

Sanctjud wrote:
That’s the issue. Specializing vs. Flexibility. Neither is better, they are different and both work in my experience and from all those that use oblits.

So I take it, as you thinking Specializing is as valid as "flexibility" you would support taking a predator with Twinlinked Lascannon and 2 Heavy bolter sponsons? Or a 5 man termi squad with a Combi-melta, a combi-flamer, a Combi-Plasma, duel Lightning-claws and a chainfist. Or mixing up special weapons in your Troops Choices?

Flexibility can be good, but not at a terrible cost, the fact is, that you can do more with 8 Missile launching Havocs(10 total wounds, 2 FoC slots) then you can with 4 oblits(8 total wounds, 2 FoC slots) (~same cost 10 point difference).

Sanctjud wrote:
I’m not saying oblits are the only way to go, just to keep that in mind. All of the heavy support are good. I like them, they do well for me, I think I’ve had a pretty balanced view about them without going into fanboi raging about how good they are.

They are not terrible, but just as Tech Marines and Termies aren't a horrible choice for Blood Angels, there are infact better elites choices, Oblits aren't a terrible HS choice, but statistically and tactically, they are worse then Havocs. (However, both are worse then Defilers, which is worth considering)

@Daemon-Archon Ren:
Unless you don't like GW House Rules, their FAQ states you can't use the smoke trick.

Secondly, as for the rules black hole, just look at the horrible can of worms that is unleashed every 3-4 weeks on the subject.

I usually ask my opponent if they care that I use the weapon arc interpretation, if they do not like it, I 4+ it. Easy peasy.
___________________

L2CD is "Learn to Chaos Dred", really...when did that catch phrase become in style?
___________________

As for Flexibility vs. Specilization:
Dependent on player and what they want.
Pred w/ TLLC/HB: I'm not a fan of preds period, but this setup, though poopooed much has it's charms. Mobile tank hunting and only needs to be stationary when it wants to do anti-infantry. It doesn't overpower the stink honestly, but it has a very narrow niche to fill.

Termies: I do flex their load out. I go for a hvy.flamer and then the rest combi-plasmas. Flamer when I use icons to get good angles, while plasmas don't mind to be >6" away from the enemy and so have safer DS spots.

Troop weapons: I don't personally do it, I double up on weapons, but their flexibility is seen between the special weapons they wield and their bolters and combat prowess. Though I have seen good rationale from players that go with split special weapons and get good milage out of them.
_______________

As for 10 Havocs with 8 MLs in 2 FoC vs. 4 Oblits in 2 FoC, sure you get more output from the Havocs.
But there are issues that I personally overwieght that make me shy away from them.

1) Suedo-Armor Saturation from oblits. This is a big one for me.
2) Oblits not doing Suedo-Armor Saturation are more durable than the Havocs.
3) Oblits are fearless while havocs are not.
4) Havocs lose effectiveness after the first body bag goes down, while oblits have wounds, but I will confess, minor.
5) Oblits not super annoyed at Dawn of War or Nightfight.
6) Mobility means they can hide and then come out and shoot, and personally I'm loathe to include static elements.
_____________________

That said, the only havocs I use are 8 with 4 AC.
Great mix of Quality shooting and weight of fire, one body bag for each heavy weapon.
The only havocs I had used extensively were blast master havocs of 3.5 for the flavor....sadly it is gone.
_____________________
As for defilers, I have one, not a huge fan, but my not liking them is more to due with lack of suitable terrain in my gaming groups to really enjoy their usage (aka nothing too high :-( )

Defiler battle cannons have one major flaw, theyre ordanance, which means they scatter the full 2d6, unless your a fantasic roller, 9 times out of ten ur going to mis altogether, which wastes your moving shot for an ac or twinlinked lascannon, (assuming you took one if not then fire away)

Tyranic Marta wrote:Defiler battle cannons have one major flaw, theyre ordanance, which means they scatter the full 2d6, unless your a fantasic roller, 9 times out of ten ur going to mis altogether, which wastes your moving shot for an ac or twinlinked lascannon, (assuming you took one if not then fire away)

Isn't it 2D6-BS? So for Defilers it would be 2D6-3. If your average scatter roll is 6, minus BS, that's an average scatter of 3 inches which isn't horrible.

im pretty sure that ordanance do not minus the fires bs,.... its in the core rulebook


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and that means that if the average roll is 6 and its a 2.5 inch base then you miss your target completely

I looked in the core rule book. They fire just the same as a blast weapon, 2d6-BS.

oh my bad sos

I mean sure it's no guarantee but the law of averages says you're going to hit dead on 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time, you have a 50% chance of scattering 3 inches or LESS. Now unless the unit you shot at is lined up in a line and you scatter north/south instead of east west, you're going to hit something. That is where Lash of Submission comes in. You don't NEED lash, but it certainly can make ordnance weapons a lot more powerful. A Havoc Launcher on your Rhino costs a piddly 15 extra points. Lash 1 unit into another unit if you can, or just take one unit and bunch them all up and hit them with 2 Havoc Launchers and a Battle Cannon if needed? Boom. Not like your Rhinos are going to be doing anything else after they drop off their squads.

Sanctjud wrote:@Daemon-Archon Ren:
Unless you don't like GW House Rules, their FAQ states you can't use the smoke trick.

You don't use the Smoke on "Firefrenzy" (you want to shoot twice with a ML/PC) you use the smoke on the "Crazed" result as you won't be shooting that turn anyway (and its totally within the rules)

Sanctjud wrote:
I usually ask my opponent if they care that I use the weapon arc interpretation, if they do not like it, I 4+ it. Easy peasy.

Its not based on the "weapon arc" its based on what the Dred has LoS to before he pivots to fire (as it clearly states that in the codex). Having to roll a 4+ on that would be like having an opponent make you roll off on how "His black rage works" simply because "he wants it to work a way other then it is (clearly) written".

Sanctjud wrote:
5) Oblits not super annoyed at Dawn of War or Nightfight.

Neither are Havocs, they get their 6 inch move onto the board, and since they are moving anyway, you can run them onto any terrain you may want them on anywho. Or you can do what I do, and buy them a Rhino (if only for another Smoke wall), in games where it is not DoW, the rhino is deployed seperate from them and used as a wall, in games of DoW, the Rhino gets them where they need to be, then joins the wall, or picks up a unit which had its rhino killed on turn 1/2.

Sanctjud wrote:
6) Mobility means they can hide and then come out and shoot, and personally I'm loathe to include static elements.

You can't say you like them as a priority target, and the fact you can hide and shoot with them, thats claiming two benefits that specifically counter each other.

Sanctjud wrote:
As for defilers, I have one, not a huge fan, but my not liking them is more to due with lack of suitable terrain in my gaming groups to really enjoy their usage (aka nothing too high :-( )

Defiliers are broken as hell... if your group has an IG player who fields lots of birdies, start shooting his birds with the chest cannon! 2d6 taking highest and resulting on 4/5+s is surprisingly awesome! (Not to mention the BC is broken all over the place in every other situation... Infact, the biggest surprise for me was when I read the BA codex and didn't see battlecannons on the Storm Raven... that woulda put them over-the-top in my book.)

You don't use the Smoke on "Firefrenzy" (you want to shoot twice with a ML/PC) you use the smoke on the "Crazed" result as you won't be shooting that turn anyway (and its totally within the rules)

Ahh, my bad, I had in my mind that you were saying the reverse. Yes, smoking on Crazy is legal, while shooting twice in firefrenzy, it's really 'depends' rather than 'want' to get two shots it. I sometimes play it that it turns full around, generally I play it doing that 50% of the time.

Its not based on the "weapon arc" its based on what the Dred has LoS to before he pivots to fire (as it clearly states that in the codex). Having to roll a 4+ on that would be like having an opponent make you roll off on how "His black rage works" simply because "he wants it to work a way other then it is (clearly) written".

I'm not getting into this, I rather get games started in my area than to argue about it.
In addition, it's not crystal clear from what I've seen:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318233.page

Neither are Havocs, they get their 6 inch move onto the board, and since they are moving anyway, you can run them onto any terrain you may want them on anywho. Or you can do what I do, and buy them a Rhino (if only for another Smoke wall), in games where it is not DoW, the rhino is deployed seperate from them and used as a wall, in games of DoW, the Rhino gets them where they need to be, then joins the wall, or picks up a unit which had its rhino killed on turn 1/2.

I head meant that they are not as annoyed as havocs who do not or are less likely (respectively) to get shots off.

Though, the rhino is a another good advantedge the Havocs have.

You can't say you like them as a priority target, and the fact you can hide and shoot with them, thats claiming two benefits that specifically counter each other.

Again, it's highly dependent on the opponent. With few ranged options, sitting in cover is enough... but my assumption is that if there is enough cover and a mass str8 plus ranged shooting, then the rhinos would be covered and the oblits would take shelter.

I don't play a single way every single game. I'm noting that their being a target (much like Daemon Princes) comes up often enough, but I don't play it recklessly all the time.

Defiliers are broken as hell...

/shrug. I don't agree, but this would be for a different thread.

i find that i very rarely dump my squads until they are either A forced (vechile destroyed...) or B its the end of the game and i need to hold the objective

I generally run Oblits as 2x3, though I sometimes sub in a 6 man havoc unit with 3 autocannons(same points) for the pure transport demolishing power in fun games. Missile launchers would cost the same, though I don't because my loyalist devastators are already armed accordingly(they're pretty dusty though, I admit ). Competitively they suffer all the same problems of loyalist devastators but trade one BS5 heavy weapon for 2a each and LD9/10 with potential rerolls and some slightly more expensive options.
I would rather run 8 man units with 4 weapons in the chaos codex tops to minimize points wastage and still have enough ablative wounds, it's not like we can combat squad. Either 8 man with 4 heavies/specials or 6 man with 3 seem to be the best numbers in my opinion.

Havocs are also an awesome way to bring a lot of fantastic special weapons to the table, I also occasionally run an 8-9 man unit with 4 meltaguns, chaos glory and an unmarked combi-melta daemon weapon lord in a rhino purely because that many meltas in a single unit is amazing.

I've considered running a 4x lascannon(have a lot of IW lascannons lying about) squad to bring to larger games(2k and up or so) but in general I'd rather just keep my oblits and take more chaos marines with twin specials.
In apoc havocs (no FoC, so along with oblits!)would be a fantastic way to spam either melta or lascannons though, where points don't matter as much as bringing more S9+ or melta weapons to the table.

das a really good point but it still doesnt really awnser the question....

Um, as to the OP question, if you're not taking any other HS, take the oblits, as three seperate units(flexibility).
If you have only one slot to work with, the havocs can pack more firepower into a single slot if that's your only concern.

Either way they need to keep to cover(though oblits can be held in reserve and deep strike), but the oblits at range tend to soak lascannon and ML shots(people always seem to want to ID multi-wound models for some reason!) that would otherwise be shooting at your rhinos and their squishy centers, or daemon prince(if you swing that way).

i think that pretty much sums up the entire thread, nicly done

Well, finally had my game and I took one squad of Havocs and one of Oblits. Have to say, the Oblits were really nice. I was shooting Las Cannons shots at MCs far away, when they got close I switched to Plasma, and then at one point my opponent deep striked a squad of 12 Gargoyles near my Oblit. The Gargoyles fired on one of my Terminator squads on the turn they deepstriked, and then my oblits were able to move close enough to wipe out the entire squad of 12 Gargoyles with twin-linked flamers in one shot.

Nice and toasty .

I'm glad the oblits did well, but what of the Havocs? What did they get to do?

And what was their loadout?

Yes thats a good q.....

The Havocs had 4 MLs. They didn't do a ton to be honest, but that was partially to horrible rolling on my part. 4 Krak Missiles a turn was nice on the MCs (he had two Trygons and a Hive Tyrant), but then when it was time to kill little stuff, I ended up not even using the frag missiles due to his spacing (figured it was better to have one semi-sure kill, then 2-3 maybes). The flexibility of the Oblits definitely came in handy more though. 3 Lascannon shots long range (probably could have used Plasma Cannons at some point, but I needed to focus on the MCs) were not as good as 4 Krak Missiles from the Havocs; however, 6 twin-linked plasma shots, and 3 twinlinked flamer shots were devastating as things got closer. Given the price differential though (225 points for 3 oblits compared to 155 for 5 Havocs and 4 MLs) I really can't argue that taking one is better than the other. I think it will come down to what you're going up against. I'd also like to say that SW are seriously jacked up. I was looking at their codex last night, and their heavy weapon squad can get 6 guys, 5 with MLs and one with a plasma gun for the SAME PRICE as a Havoc squad of 5 with 4 MLs and a bolter. WTF is up with that? For the same price, they get an extra model, an extra ML, and a plasma gun instead of a bolter.

Thats kinda stupid....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yeah i see what you mean bout the havoks, they culd have done better but they could hav done worse

Depending on your local players, you might want to sub the 4xML for 2xML 2xAC, or 4xAC configuration. The AC's are good against the little stuff, dont worry about spread out troops, and still throws wounds down on MC's, and has the same range. Against other armies it's good against light vehicles/transports and wound infantry (sure it doesn't ignore a marines armour, but it does wound him on a 2+!). Alot of people swear by 4xAC, but I like the 2xML 2xAC settup.

im one of the people who could live of ac's. i swear by them

If you're planning on running Havocs in a Rhino, consider the configuration of two Autocannons and two Plasma Guns. That way you can always have two firing out of the top two fire points whether moving or stationary.

^That's a pretty nifty combo.

Nurglitch wrote:If you're planning on running Havocs in a Rhino, consider the configuration of two Autocannons and two Plasma Guns. That way you can always have two firing out of the top two fire points whether moving or stationary.

oic what you did thar

I personally feel that people overestimate the power of S8 insta-kills. Unless the squad in question is using wound allocation tricks, 2 shots that wound on 2's is going to do the same amount of damage as 1 shot that also wounds on 2's and insta-kills assuming the model has 2 wounds.

Sure if it has 3 wounds its better to go for the insta-kill but there are also 2W models that have Eternal Warrior.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying insta-kills are useless, just that its a situational bonus.

As for Havocs, I've long been a fan of the 1 bodybag per 1 gun Marine logic, however I find myself changing that recently. One of the main ways to cheapen an infantry based heavy weapon squad is to lose bodies, so I'm thinking that 6-7 guys is probably enough to protect 4 weapons. Someone earlier also mentioned the trick of putting the IoCG on an Autocannon Marine so you still only have 4 "important" Marines to protect.

Better to increase the diversity of a unit if you want to protect its important members, and although you're increasing the diversity of the important members by adding an Icon to a Heavy Weapon Specialist, you're reducing the overall diversity of the unit. Better to suck up the cost to add an Aspiring Champion and an Icon Bearer.

On the point of a 5 man havok squad, if they need to take a moral check the they are pretty much toasted, i reccommend dumping the icons altogether, its just points that your wasting, and could put to other uses, a rhino as protection eg

If they have to take a morale check and they have an Icon of Chaos Glory, then they have at least Ld9 with a re-roll. Not to mention that the Icon can be used for homing Obliterators, Terminators, and Lesser Daemons in on them. In such a fashion Havocs can be considered to be able to hold objectives, taking them, and then guarding the unit of Lesser Daemons that is brought down to score.

As a rule you dont want to hone lesser deamons termies etc on them because theyre to far away from everything to help, im a staunch believer of keeping my blits on the ground, you wont see me deepstiking them ever, on the point of leadership, the most common times they will be required to make is either when: a they have lost 25% dudes, in this case theyre gonna get mauled the next turn or in combat anyway so it doesnt make a dif, or b when they are being pinned, albeit the latter is quite a viable need to stay up and shooting, but again if something is in range to pin them that means they have lost a wound for a start, eg you probably lost one of the heavy weapons or not depending on the battle..., and theyll get smoked next turn anyway.

They need an iocg, last thing you need is to fail a moral or pinning test when there are still 3 or 4 ml to shoot.

The point is that if anyone is in range to force a pinning / moral then the rest of the shooting phase is going to maul them, and if it gets to that point the assault phase, you arnt going to be able to fire your other heavy weapons because they wont see anouther shooting phase.

^Agreed.
One small note. IoCG only helps for Morale and not pinning.

Keep the Havocs far far away and maximize the range. Anything sent to deal with them is away from something more important.
Their inability to score is sad, but you can feel content into placing them in terrible places to score which makes it less of an appealing thing for the opponent to go after them.

Sanctjud, isn't pinning a form of morale test? Items that help your morale will help against pinning, the same way ramming is just a form of tank shocking.

Last night I used an 8 man havok squad with 4 heavy bolters and a rhino with extra armor and a havok.

They did really well. They (along with 2 havok launchers) decimated an ork slugga boys mob that included a warboss, so that my CSM squad was able to assault and kill the warboss and nob that were left. They also killed 3 deffcoptas in one shooting phase, and later killed 2 of 3 in a second deffcopta squad, which then failed morale and ran away. They then fired twice at ghazghul and a nobz mob that were in cover, but the rolls were so bad I only did 1 wound in 2 shooting phases and that one was stopped by the cover save.

Overall, in this situation (large groups of lightly armored targets) they did better than my obliterators have done in the past. I would consider using them against orks, or possibly using a squad with 4 missile launchers if I decide to buy some. (this squad was made from all the extra heavy bolters I had from the CSM sprues.)

No, pinning and morale tests are both leadership tests, but pinning is not a form of morale test.

Incidentally I'm looking at the rules for the Pulse Carbine and they seem entirely consistent with the new pinning rules. Codex: Tau Empire says that any unit suffering at least one wound from pulse carbine fire must take a pinning test. This is true, because at least one unsaved wound from Pulse Carbine fire means one Pulse Carbine inflicted an unsaved wound.

If your opponent wants to play hardball, and they refuse to play it so that they have to take a pinning test for every unsaved wound caused by a Pulse Carbine, point out that the Pulse Carbine rules don't specific 'unsaved wounds'. The Pulse Carbine rules specify 'wounds', meaning that the pinning test for Pulse Carbines is taken at the wounding step rather than after saves.

Curses......

Would you rather wreak havoc onto your opponent or Obliterate him? lol

TRICK QUESTION!
The answer is both!

And then after that, you start playing Warmachine

From my experience, which is better relies on who you are fighting. against Necrons, Orks, and Eldar. I have had games where obliterators gun down necrons, who are promptly ressurected, and then the obliterators gun them down again. But Havocs are good as a utility unit that can finish off most already damaged units. (or to start cracking that unit open) Happy Wargaming.

Just to mess with the situation, what about replacing Oblits or Havocks with larger then termicide Terminator squads?

Obliterators can do what Termicides do and better, as well they can provide fire support from the backfield. Havocs can provide better fire support from the backfield, but you can actually afford Terminators and Havocs.

ripjaw wrote:I have had games where obliterators gun down necrons, who are promptly ressurected

IIRC Necrons can't get up after being obliterated by plasma cannons.

Plasma Cannon is str 7. Necron Warrior is T 4, so yah they get WBB rolls

Yup, We'll Be Back ain't no Feel No Pain...

To insta kill warriors you need str 8+ weapons, and even then, if a Lord is nearby with resurrection orb, they get their WBB roll no matter what. Then there is the Lord, Immortals, Destroyers, and Heavy Destroyers which have Toughness 5....

/shrug.
I don't care too much about WBB, as long as you are going down....and Monolith Portaled or Veiled anything are juicy targets.

I find terminators a weak option because they may be good for close up tank hunting but they get shot to pieces afterwards

Tyranic Marta wrote:I find terminators a weak option because they may be good for close up tank hunting but they get shot to pieces afterwards

But the counter arguement to that is always that if they're shooting at your small/cheap Terminator squad, they aren't shooting at the more important stuff coming up the board.

Termicide really goes back to the idea of trading one unit for another and hoping to get the best of that trade.

There is also the point difference, 4 Obliterators will run you 300 points whereas 3x3 Termicide squads will cost you 315. I'd say that against light armor spam, Oblit's ability to fire for more than 1 turn will be the winner but against Land Raiders or other heavy armor, the ability of the Termicide to target and destroy 3 tanks will be more important.

Basically, as the AV goes up, Lascannon on the Oblit gets weaker and the Melta on the Termicide gets better.

As counter-arguments go, it's pretty weak when taken out of context. After all, if they're shooting at your weak little Terminator squad, they're more likely to kill it and move onto bigger targets. That's a bad thing in kill-point games, and unless you have more units than the enemy, a bad thing in objective games. If you could get several Terminator squads for every Elite slot, then taking Termicide squads would be a good idea because you wouldn't be losing the opportunity cost of taking other Elite units.

Similarly the point that Termicide Melta fire will out-compete Obliterator Lascannon fire is a false dilemma because Obliterators have the option of either a Multi-Melta or a Twin-Linked Melta Gun, and using Obliterators lets you take Chosen squads for a forward Icon.

ikky2win wrote:Plasma Cannon is str 7. Necron Warrior is T 4, so yah they get WBB rolls

Sorry my mistake. Thought they didn't get WBB from stuff that ignores armor saves.

i guess my style would be 3 man with khorne and chainfists.... good tank hunting

yes but again were not commenting on termies vs blits its havocs vs blits....

Nurglitch wrote:If you could get several Terminator squads for every Elite slot, then taking Termicide squads would be a good idea because you wouldn't be losing the opportunity cost of taking other Elite units.

But what else would you take with your Elite slots? Every other option besides Chosen is subpar and Chosen do the same basic job of suicide special weapon spammers but rely on Rhino/Outflank instead of Deepstrike.

Similarly the point that Termicide Melta fire will out-compete Obliterator Lascannon fire is a false dilemma because Obliterators have the option of either a Multi-Melta or a Twin-Linked Melta Gun, and using Obliterators lets you take Chosen squads for a forward Icon.

That is true but my experience has been that 90% of the time the Oblits are using either their Lascannon or Plasma Cannon. The other weapons are more defensive in nature as they rely on a shorter range (12") to be fired at maximum effect. This means you have less control over when/how you want to use them, making them more backup weapons then primary weapons in my eyes.

And while you could deepstrike the Oblits to use those weapons, then you're paying more points for the same basic role as the Terminators but paying more for it.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying Termicide is better, just that it compliments the weaknesses of Obliterators.

minigun762:

I don't share the opinion that Possessed are "subpar", likewise I don't share the opinion that the only way to use Chosen is outflanking with a Rhino, and finally I think that Terminators have other, better uses than Termicide.

If the Obliterators are competing with Termicide, then they'll be doing the same thing, dropping close and using Melta weapons. They just happen to have several other options besides anti-tank. After all, if the short range was a problem, then we wouldn't even be considering Termicide because they have the same ability to Deep Strike (and use Icons...).

If you're paying more for the same role, presumably you want whatever is filling that role to be more effective. A single Obliterator will be as effective as two Terminators armed with Combi-Melta, and cheaper than two Terminators armed with Combi-Meltas and Powerfists, and tougher to boot while freeing up the Elite slot.

Termicide doesn't complement the weakness of Obliterators because Terminators are more expensive for similar configuration (Trading off Slow and Purposeful against the opportunity to shoot more than once, and with different weapons, and Fearless). They can add redundancy at a premium, but they have no significant improvements in mobility, firepower, or close combat ability. In other word, they can't do anything that a similar amount of Obliterators can't do better, and Obliterators can do more.

You can also do more evil in combination with Obliterators, such as having a Sorcerer of Slaanesh in Terminator Armour join the unit, for their own integral Lash of Submission, or escort a Chaos Lord like Abbadon or Typhus.

I'll add my own caveat, that there are things that Terminators can do that Obliterators can't, but we're discussing Termicide and not a good application of Terminators.

You don't need chosen for icons. All cult troops choices can have 1 for 5 points, and vanilla always have 1. If all troops choices are mechanized then chances are one of them will be close to the enemy, especially land raiders as they will often come to you.

In my experience, lascannon usage is pretty minimal. Starting turn 2 and on I've had made use of all the other shorter ranged weapons.

As for Chose, if it's special weapon delivery, I would agree that Outflanking is the more desirable option.
For other uses, infiltrating does have a use.

As for possessed, if one looks for "Possessed: The Glass Half Full" on this forum, it should tell you where I stand on possessed .
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Oblits vs. Termicides... don't work very well.
At the very least, termicides are less flexible in that they can only bring whatever guns they purchased to begin with and will likely only enter by Deepstrike, which is not always desirable.

I find the main benefit to arming Havocs with Lascannons (and Autocannons, and Missile Launchers) is that the range makes up for the impaired mobility maximizing the use of said weapons will entail. Having 4x-8x the effective range of a Melta weapon is handy beyond the first turn, particularly if they are set up on a flank.

Regarding Havocs in Dawn of War, consider that Havocs can take Rhinos as dedicated transports and use their Searchlights in the first turn, which maximizes the number of Searchlights you can use and thus the number of targets you can hit on the first turn.

What is shooting when your ranged support has to walk/disembark on their turn?
Dreads or Defilers could use the search lights, but in all likelihood you only need 2-3, in which case 2-3 rhinos for 2-3 troops should be in the list already.

Or are we talking about 2 'Tactical' Chaos Space Marine squads with heavy weapons in each?

Sanctjud wrote:What is shooting when your ranged support has to walk/disembark on their turn?
Dreads or Defilers could use the search lights, but in all likelihood you only need 2-3, in which case 2-3 rhinos for 2-3 troops should be in the list already.

Or are we talking about 2 'Tactical' Chaos Space Marine squads with heavy weapons in each?

Oblits are far more dangerous (at least, as I've noticed) when not deep striking in dawn of war. IDK how you play it, but as I have seen played, if Oblits roll a 1 for their SnP move on the first turn for DoW, they die (as their base is >1" so they don't make it onto the board) and a ~16% to have your unit die before doing anything at all (including being shot at by an opponent) is never a good day...

You play with silly rules then.
Any rule on a model that could possibly prevent it from entering the board is ignored, IIRC.
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As an aside, the oblits get onto the board and 'CAN' contribute.
Where as the Havocs NEVER contribute to heavy weapon firing.

Sanctjud wrote:You play with silly rules then.
Any rule on a model that could possibly prevent it from entering the board is ignored, IIRC.

No, only things like "Rage" or "Instinctive Behavior" or things that would PREVENT you from moving PERIOD.

SnP only slows movement, and just as if you were playing with Difficult terrain across you board edge, if you roll a 1 on your SnP (or your difficult terrain check) then you can only move 1", if it takes more then 1" to get onto the board, you die...

(Its pretty much the same justification as to how that one Tau guy used infiltrating Kroot to table his opponent on turn one)

That was a TO call, not RAW.
RAP is variable as seen here and RAI can't help you.

The game breaks as GWAR! would say.

I tend to take Oblits in most o0f my lists. Although i do always have a squad of AC/ML havocs in my box for special occasions.

My fave Oblit moments so far have been 1 'Blit facing downa baneblade for 3 turns and surviving. The other was having a DP try to charge me and comign up just short, well within RF plams gnu range. 6 Tl plasma gun shots later, DP is a smoking husk. yay!!

in situational areas of gameplay blits tend to be very effective, however havocs are always useful, ive gotten into the habit recently of because i run a biker list, i tend to use my heavy support as 3 squads of 5 havocs with 4 autocannons, and they either A kick but, or B get shot to bits and it isnt a problem because they are cheaper than your average infantry squad, this means that in the same situation, i wouldnt be able to feild as many blits to start with, (so less shooty) and when thwey do get shot up it hurts alot more points wise

I like obliterators, because they have plasma cannons. Your havocs can't get them. Every weapon worth having that a havoc can take, an Obliterator can take, and a few of them are even twinlinked. The exception is missile launchers, but lascannons do it better.

Soulx wrote:I like obliterators, because they have plasma cannons. Your havocs can't get them. Every weapon worth having that a havoc can take, an Obliterator can take, and a few of them are even twinlinked. The exception is missile launchers, but lascannons do it better.

srsly, for people who like autocannons, i face palm that post

I don't even like Autocannons, but I won't deny they are a valuable tool.

... im not gonna comment other than....
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't like autocannons though. I would never take them. What I mean, is for every GOOD weapon a havoc can take, an obliterator already has it.

Darkhound: I don't like Autocannons either, I just say that to get them into bed.

I don't like Autocannons, they are good though for the bucket-o-dice approach to things.

I like Autocannons with tank hunters...
I weep for the good old 3.5 days...

I say the most important aspect is that Autocannons are the only uniquely Chaos weapon to choose, instantly making them the winner.

Much like Oblits , Unique and not like them Spiky SMurf Devestators

I use autocannons alot, but thats because i go up against tau, nids and necrons alot and they seem to do well against all three