This is just to put things in perspective, but why "official" tournaments put so much enfasis on this when GW sets do not support it?.

I mean, take wolves.

There are no official wolves models.
No thunderwolves.
No terminator combiweapons.
No combiweapons for WG on power armour.
No flamers.
No meltas.
Speeders that dont have half their weapon combinations.
Dreads missing a multitude of weapon options.

Shouldnt GW fully support all codex options like they do with DE before we even talk about WYSIWYG?

Just to spark out debate.

There's a few models in the Eldar line up that's got equipment on their models that aren't allowed, and their codex is the most strict on WYSIWYG

But see, you're supposed to buy entire kits you don't need just to get that one piece for the conversion!!

Mahtamori wrote:There's a few models in the Eldar line up that's got equipment on their models that aren't allowed, and their codex is the most strict on WYSIWYG

Every codex is equally strict on WYSIWYG (it is not "WYSIWYG unles you are..."). Their new plastic sets have the official wording :"Every option included on the codex" or something added to their advertising.

don_mondo wrote:But see, you're supposed to buy entire kits you don't need just to get that one piece for the conversion!!

That is if you are making a conversion, many of what i listed above are standard run of the mill troops that you simply cant assemble. May be it is just me, but when i buy a Wolf pack box or a Tactical marines box or a dread, i expect to be able to assemble that same unit, with the options listen in the codex. I come from a far away land where when they sell you a car, it actually does come with 4 wheels.

xxvaderxx wrote:Shouldnt GW fully support all codex options like they do with DE before we even talk about WYSIWYG?

The answer to that really depends on what you think WYSIWYG is actually supposed to do.


Some players feel that WYSIWYG is nothing more than an excuse to make you buy more kits to get the options you need. In which case, GW not supporting certain options in certain kits forces you to buy other kits to get the parts you need for the first kit... which fits that theory nicely. Likewise, for units that don't exist you have to scratch-build or convert from other sets, which also often requires you to buy more than just a single set.

I don't personally subscribe to that theory, but it does fit


For those who feel that WYSIWYG is intended as nothing more than a convenience (ie: it's a tool by which the game is made easier to play, because you just have to look at the model to see what it is, and what it is equipped with) then whether or not the model range supports it is largely irrelevant. If a particular option is not available in a kit, you either don't use it, or convert it. Similarly, if a particular unit doesn't have a model, you don't use it until that model is released (ala Space Marine players wanting Land Raiders for the second half of 2nd edition and the start of 3rd edition) or you convert it from something else.

GW is somewhat hampered by budget restrictions. As much as the studio would love to give us new shiny toys for every option whenever they release a codex, they're generally only allowed to release a specific number of new kits. So they work in shiny new options to the rules for those who want them, and just release the corresponding models when the budget allows.

10 hot dogs for 8 hot dog buns. means you have to buy 5 packs of buns and 4 packs of hot dogs for it to even out.

Your tactical squad wants a multi melta? Well, you can get one of those with 5 devastators! lucky you. They have been doing that ever since I can remember. At least they used to sell sprues of stuff like 'ork close combat weapons' or 'space marine special weapons' or whatever but that is a thing of the past. I had to build my chimera with a leman russ heavy flamer because the chim didn't have one. Good thing I had that Leman Russ sprue laying around. This has been pissing people off for over a decade, but I think the intention is pretty obvious. Now I have to go and eat 40 hot dogs just to get my moneys worth.

xxvaderxx wrote:Their new plastic sets have the official wording :"Every option included on the codex" or something added to their advertising.

Yeah and pigs fly on monday mornings. I really would like to see the GW infantry box that has enough hand grenades for the whole squad.

A-P wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:Their new plastic sets have the official wording :"Every option included on the codex" or something added to their advertising.

Yeah and pigs fly on monday mornings. I really would like to see the GW infantry box that has enough hand grenades for the whole squad.

Same for witches. It is an interesting dilemma, as a TO, i could not make my event WYSIWYG, not when so many options are missing. May be leave say 20% of the model count not as WYSIWYG. So if you had say 40 marines, 8 of them could brake WYSIWYG or something.

vader, no, that's not true. Read the Eldar codex on page 59. No other codex says "cannot field models not equipped with weapons or wargear not shown on their model"

A-P wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:Their new plastic sets have the official wording :"Every option included on the codex" or something added to their advertising.

Yeah and pigs fly on monday mornings. I really would like to see the GW infantry box that has enough hand grenades for the whole squad.

Eldar Guardians have. They may not use grenades, though.

Like any gw rule, WYSIWYG has obvious limitations based on the models we have available.

For example, is it ok to use a power sword and fantasy shield to represent a thunderhammer and storm shield on a black reach termie? For codex marines, powersword and fantasy shield is not a legal combo, thus perhaps it falls under 'conversion' but really it just the owner being lazy and not wanting to buy the model. Still, as long as the lazy 'conversion' is consistant at defining what models are what, no rule besides 'rule of cool' is really being broken.

IMHO, the most important aspect of WYSIWYG is to differentiate models to prevent cheating in games. IE, if you pull a bolter marine when you were supposed to pull a melta marine, the opponent can visually see that the model type you pulled is the incorrect model.

Also, if a quick look at an enemy unit shows no melta weapons, so you put a vehicle right next to it, even if melta is written down in the list the models are not differentiated on the field leading to poor vehicle placement--this is not the vehicle players fault but the melta owning player for not making his unit choices clear enough to base a strat on.

Now for unit types that dont exist, lazy conversions are fine as long as they are consistant. Thunderwolves, for example. If you put a marine standing on the back of a fantasy wolf, technically that can be a really ugly thunderwolf--its obviously not a regular marine or a marine on a bike, so for visual identification it passes. A fantasy wolf with no rider, however, can be confused with fenrisan wolves instead of counts as thunderwolves, and even if fenrisian wolves are not in the list the lazy thunderwolf fails as it must constantly be clarified.

DevianID wrote:Like any gw rule, WYSIWYG has obvious limitations based on the models we have available.

For example, is it ok to use a power sword and fantasy shield to represent a thunderhammer and storm shield on a black reach termie? For codex marines, powersword and fantasy shield is not a legal combo, thus perhaps it falls under 'conversion' but really it just the owner being lazy and not wanting to buy the model. Still, as long as the lazy 'conversion' is consistant at defining what models are what, no rule besides 'rule of cool' is really being broken.

IMHO, the most important aspect of WYSIWYG is to differentiate models to prevent cheating in games. IE, if you pull a bolter marine when you were supposed to pull a melta marine, the opponent can visually see that the model type you pulled is the incorrect model.

Also, if a quick look at an enemy unit shows no melta weapons, so you put a vehicle right next to it, even if melta is written down in the list the models are not differentiated on the field leading to poor vehicle placement--this is not the vehicle players fault but the melta owning player for not making his unit choices clear enough to base a strat on.

Now for unit types that dont exist, lazy conversions are fine as long as they are consistant. Thunderwolves, for example. If you put a marine standing on the back of a fantasy wolf, technically that can be a really ugly thunderwolf--its obviously not a regular marine or a marine on a bike, so for visual identification it passes. A fantasy wolf with no rider, however, can be confused with fenrisan wolves instead of counts as thunderwolves, and even if fenrisian wolves are not in the list the lazy thunderwolf fails as it must constantly be clarified.

That is all nice and cool, except for the fact that again, not all options are supported. How do you make double anything land speeder from the land speed box?. Are you supposed to buy a commander box for every wolf guard that you want it to have combi melta and power fist?. It is like buying a car that only comes with 3 wheels.

Again, i would stand by it, if GW did, 1 box 1 unit (or multiple for lager sized units).

Mahtamori wrote:Eldar Guardians have. They may not use grenades, though.

Damn space hippies . My loyal IG veterans had to scrounge theirs from the cold hands of fallen enemies ( borrow, swap or buy from other players ), since Adeptus Munitorium ( GW ) did not supply enough.

xxvaderxx wrote:Shouldnt GW fully support all codex options like they do with DE before we even talk about WYSIWYG?

Just to spark out debate.

Yes, thats why I completely hate the tyranid codex.

What is a Tervigon supposed to be, how tall, and on what base matter and nobody knows.

..and that's one of like 12 units...

Guitardian wrote:10 hot dogs for 8 hot dog buns. means you have to buy 5 packs of buns and 4 packs of hot dogs for it to even out.

Your tactical squad wants a multi melta? Well, you can get one of those with 5 devastators! lucky you. They have been doing that ever since I can remember. At least they used to sell sprues of stuff like 'ork close combat weapons' or 'space marine special weapons' or whatever but that is a thing of the past. I had to build my chimera with a leman russ heavy flamer because the chim didn't have one. Good thing I had that Leman Russ sprue laying around. This has been pissing people off for over a decade, but I think the intention is pretty obvious. Now I have to go and eat 40 hot dogs just to get my moneys worth.

Its not difficult to get the extra bits you need. There are tons of Ebay stores that sell a variaty of indivudal bits all over North America.

For example I want MMs on my Tac squad boxes. Instead of buying devistator boxes, I just buy some multimeltas on ebay for 1.50$ a piece. If I want 6 assault terminators, instead of buying 2x boxes of 5, I just buy 1 box of 5 and buy the bits to make a sixth terminator for 8$.

xxvaderxx wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:There's a few models in the Eldar line up that's got equipment on their models that aren't allowed, and their codex is the most strict on WYSIWYG

Every codex is equally strict on WYSIWYG (it is not "WYSIWYG unles you are..."). Their new plastic sets have the official wording :"Every option included on the codex" or something added to their advertising.

don_mondo wrote:But see, you're supposed to buy entire kits you don't need just to get that one piece for the conversion!!

That is if you are making a conversion, many of what i listed above are standard run of the mill troops that you simply cant assemble. May be it is just me, but when i buy a Wolf pack box or a Tactical marines box or a dread, i expect to be able to assemble that same unit, with the options listen in the codex. I come from a far away land where when they sell you a car, it actually does come with 4 wheels.

Whereas I'm from a land of deoderant stick landspeeders and plasticard tanks (using patterns from GW). I've never found anything that I couldn't work up a decent conversin of from other GW models.

From the initial post list:
I'll admit that currently, SW puppy riders are problematical. But GW has had several different wolf/dog type models that can easily be used, while using biker legs and whatever torsos you want. But I can't really think of anything else. Combiweapon, ummm, stick something on a boltgun, voila, it's a combiweapon. Flamers, meltas, all kinds of kits have them, go out and get some. No idea what speeder/Dread weapons combos you're unable to find, but I'm sure whatever weapon you want is available somewhere, just up to you to put it on the vehicle.

Now, would it be nice if every unit in every codex had a kit that contained that unit and all of it's options. Hell yeah! I'd love to be able to buy a box containing an IG squad that had all the heavy weapons, all the special weapons, a commissar, all the sgt options, etc etc etc. But see, then I could just buy that one box instead of the three to four different kits that I do have to buy to get what I want, usually leaving me with lots of leftover bits that I'll never use.

xxvaderxx: If your point is that collecting a specific army is made difficult by gw, I agree! However, it is not made impossible--and converting is also not impossible as long as you dont mind some really terrible looking models.

So while wolfguard or sternguard dont get enough combimeltas to do a squad right out of the box, combimeltas ARE available elsewhere. Thus, while it may cost a billion dollars, the WYSIWYG option is possible, though you will end up with tons of models you may not have wanted. GW is fine with selling you more than you need!

It is a bigger problem saying that your 30 wolfguard all have a mix of combimeltas and combiplasma when all the models are armed with a bolter because GW didnt give you enough bits. There is no differentiation between them, thus in a tourney you will be misrepresenting your forces on the table.

DevianID wrote:xxvaderxx: If your point is that collecting a specific army is made difficult by gw, I agree! However, it is not made impossible--and converting is also not impossible as long as you dont mind some really terrible looking models.

So while wolfguard or sternguard dont get enough combimeltas to do a squad right out of the box, combimeltas ARE available elsewhere. Thus, while it may cost a billion dollars, the WYSIWYG option is possible, though you will end up with tons of models you may not have wanted. GW is fine with selling you more than you need!

It is a bigger problem saying that your 30 wolfguard all have a mix of combimeltas and combiplasma when all the models are armed with a bolter because GW didnt give you enough bits. There is no differentiation between them, thus in a tourney you will be misrepresenting your forces on the table.

My point is, while it is logical that GW looks to milk the easy buck out of you with 3 wheel cars, People should not buy into it. May be implement some other format like 80% of your model count has to be WYSIWYG and the rest does not but it has to be clearly identified. Like solid crisom red marines in an ultramarine army to identify lass cannons for instance.

Otherwise some one could get on hard ass mode, come with a land speeder with a pensil sticked to it and call it an assault cannon, as "It is a converted, GW non supported codex option".

A few things:

1) OP: there certainly are modelling options for Flamers, plasma guns, Melta guns, and every heavy weapon(excepting Sternguard Heavy Flamers, and Master of the Forge Conversion Beamers) in fact in the case of Plasma and Melta guns you can buy a pack of 5 of each variant http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440277a&rootCatGameStyle=(about halfway down the page)

2) While yes this is a game it is also a hobby, so conversions are just about expected of many modelers(hence why some options, those that only 1-2 units per codex can take, never get official bitz) With things like Combi-weapons, you can cut a barrel of of a storm bolter and glue the barrel of the regular special weapon on(SW wolf pack box comes with some power armor storm bolters and several plasma pistols, viola combi-plasma). As far as whole units like the thunderwolves that gets a little stickier, but so long as you can tell what it is supposed to be you have WYSIWYG

Which leads me to:

3) WYSIWYG does not mean that all units must be 100% GW models, it means that all options must be represented on the models you bring to the table, and should be clear that all instances of x bit is y item rules-wise.

Also note that, Eldar aside, WYSIWYG only applies to options bought for units and characters; not to the rank and file of units. Eldar is special in that their codex does specify that all of any unit's wargear must be represented on the model(and then the guardians box does not have enough grenades to equip the entire unit).

xxvaderxx wrote: Like solid crisom red marines in an ultramarine army to identify lass cannons for instance.

Don't you then run the risk of someone being just as precious and complaining that they can't possibly be Ultramarines because they're red?

I steer clear of tourneys and the crowd of regulars in my local GW store for this very reason.

The_Happy_Pig wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote: Like solid crisom red marines in an ultramarine army to identify lass cannons for instance.

Don't you then run the risk of someone being just as precious and complaining that they can't possibly be Ultramarines because they're red?

I steer clear of tourneys and the crowd of regulars in my local GW store for this very reason.

If that is really your reason, you may want to talk with them; it seems that it would be illuminating for you.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

3) WYSIWYG does not mean that all units must be 100% GW models, it means that all options must be represented on the models you bring to the table, and should be clear that all instances of x bit is y item rules-wise.

This is essentially the point that I wanted to echo. There seems to be some confusion about the purpose and implementation of WYSIWYG in tournaments.

WYSIWYG in tournaments is in place NOT to help drive sales to Games Workshop but simply in an effort to allow players to be able to understand at a glance what their opponent is fielding. Players should never have to be confused as to what unit has what options. As long as all options are consistently and clearly marked somehow throughout the army, then you will never, ever be hassled in a tournament for WYSIWYG.

And really that rule is included in tournaments as sort of a safety net that is only ever enforced when it is felt that someone is potentially attempting to abuse it by confusing their opponent. That means there are a whole lot of WYSIWYG conventions that people/tournaments commonly use because the rule is only ever enforced when necessary:


1) If a unit comes standard with a bunch of wargear, then most people don't bother modeling all that gear if it doesn't come standard on the model (such as Bolt Pistols on marines).

2) If a unit or option has no official model, then obviously anything can be used as a stand-in provided it generally like the item in question.

3) You can even get away with breaking WYSIWYG as long as it is consistently done throughout the army. For example, if all your squads in the army have a certain upgrade, then it is usually fine to get away with not modelling that option on the models. But if *some* units have the upgrade while others do not, then it becomes imperative that the squads with the upgrade get properly modeled so that your opponent can actually tell at a glance which units have the upgrade.

Not to derail or hijack, but i have a question about WYSIWYG. what about Rough Rider model with a CCW, laspistol and Hunting Lance? they can legally be armed with any combo of 2.
but to save time/money, i'm thinking about giving some all 3. is that acceptable?

to the OP:
as an IG player, i feel your pain. look how many Vendetta, Hydra and Manticore variants there are.
i second getting bits from online stores or Feebay. hell, i've had some great finds here on the Swap Shop.

kirsanth wrote:

The_Happy_Pig wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote: Like solid crisom red marines in an ultramarine army to identify lass cannons for instance.

Don't you then run the risk of someone being just as precious and complaining that they can't possibly be Ultramarines because they're red?

I steer clear of tourneys and the crowd of regulars in my local GW store for this very reason.

If that is really your reason, you may want to talk with them; it seems that it would be illuminating for you.

I have and it was, not long after I started gaming I even took part in the local GW store event. I don't share their degree of religious fervour over what is (to my mind at least) a clever bit of marketing. To me, wargaming is a hobby and a way of having fun. At the end of the day it's playing toy soldiers, there's no need to be precious, aggressive or rules lawyering, all of these attitudes I came across at the event, which turned me off it, and made me think twice about any future events that might happen there.

I don't see the issue with making an extra copy of an army roster and giving it to your opponent so they know what you're fielding, or at least explaining what is on the table, along with clearly letting them know what's going on during the game. It's how my friends and I play, and it works for us.

If you do take it as seriously as some do, good luck to you, I'll just leave you be and continue playing the game with my friends. My point in my first post is that if people are going to be serious about WYSIWYG, then there won't be any way around it, not by differentiating models by anything else than showing the appropriate wargear, hence spending the extra money and time, some of us don't have that much of either to spare. I'm not going to argue if someone wants to field a unit with a special weapon but that for some reason or another they haven't got on the model, so long as I know beforehand. Anyone that tries to intentionally hide it from me and then hits me with a melta shot from a SM model holding just a bolter without letting me know what gear it's carrying isn't someone that I would want to play against.

If you really have a problem with modelling and doing some conversion work you are in the wrong hobby. The rules exist to support the miniatures. The miniatures do not exist to support the rules.

Combi-complainers are especially the worst at this. Combi weapons, in general, are abundant, and clipping off the barrel of one weapon to convert to another is about as Modelling 101 as it gets.

It is 2002, and I am playing in a big tournament at Dream Wizards and winning.

Third game, I am confident I will get win 4...I have the only painted army...and I know I scored well in sportsmanship ( my opponents told me the game against me was the best of the day).

Can't remember the mission, but you got uber bonus victory points for killing the HQ as well as battle points.

I assault a space wolf unit, putting my commander in base to base with a wolf carrying a power sword. Attacks start.

Wolf with power sword does not attack. I point this out to my opponent, as I do not want him to forget. He then goes..oh, thats a power fist. See? ( holds up list).

Not wanting to be a dick, I let him kill my commander, losing the game.

That is why you have Wysiwig.

I have never understood the big deal with GW's inability to have all the models, and pieces for them possible. I mean this is a game involving models, I always just assumed if it didn't exist then that only means it shall be modeled. If I only wanted a war strategy game I'm sure I could find a good one for the computer. And there are plenty of options to get just bits from various retailers, it's not that bad.

yournamehere wrote:I have never understood the big deal with GW's inability to have all the models, and pieces for them possible. I mean this is a game involving models, I always just assumed if it didn't exist then that only means it shall be modeled. If I only wanted a war strategy game I'm sure I could find a good one for the computer. And there are plenty of options to get just bits from various retailers, it's not that bad.

They are selling 3 wheels cars, which i am sorry to say, i am not buying, i try to keep everything original, but i am not going out of my way to buy missing box parts, i will just mold and copy a combi what ever until they come in the boxes.

If they can do it for DE they can do it for the rest of the range, or they need to reduce the options.

insaniak wrote:

Some players feel that WYSIWYG is nothing more than an excuse to make you buy more kits to get the options you need. In which case, GW not supporting certain options in certain kits forces you to buy other kits to get the parts you need for the first kit... which fits that theory nicely. Likewise, for units that don't exist you have to scratch-build or convert from other sets, which also often requires you to buy more than just a single set.

I totally agree insaniak whether you believe it or not, I do.

xxvaderxx wrote:

Shouldnt GW fully support all codex options like they do with DE before we even talk about WYSIWYG?

They don't fully support the DE codex have you seen what it has and what models they actually show? The spider thingy (can't remember the name off hand), The fighter (again can't remember the name off hand), and the Void Raven bomber all don't have models. (and please do not count Forge World its not an official model until I see it at my FLGS for a REASONABLE price)

Guitardian wrote:

Your tactical squad wants a multi melta? Well, you can get one of those with 5 devastators! lucky you. They have been doing that ever since I can remember.

No they haven't! Back when I started 40K, which is a good 7 years ago now, you used to be able to buy the little devestator guys in blister packs. I bought a Lascannon guy, a Plasma Cannon guy, and some others from blister packs. Now GW is being money hogs and they aren't even being subtle about it. They stopped releasing the blister packs so they make you buy a $30 Devestator squad just to get your one Multi-Melta guy or whatnot. Personally I think its price gouging! I love 40K and Warhammer in general but I do not like GW's marketing methods I agree with xxvaderxx that if I buy a car I want one with 4 wheels not one with 3 so I have to go buy another car to get the 4th wheel. Or if I buy a car with 4 wheels I want to be able to get the 4th wheel by itself from someplace.

I personally also hate WYSIWYG tournaments in the current addition because of these very reasons. I had to go buy 4 assault squads for a total of $88 then I had to go buy $10 worth of those darn meltagun packs that come by themselves which means I had to convert my Assault Squads (so they look sort of silly because I didn't want to bucher them any further to make them look right) and then I had to cut up another model for an inferno pistol. All just to get 2 10 man Assault squads with meltaguns and 2 sergeants 1 with an infernus pistol for a grand total of about $100 for 2 squads for a 1500pt tournament thank god that I had the rest of the army. (and for those who are wondering no I didn't win because the army I used wasn't that good, should have play tested it more )

cervidal wrote:If you really have a problem with modelling and doing some conversion work you are in the wrong hobby. The rules exist to support the miniatures. The miniatures do not exist to support the rules.

Combi-complainers are especially the worst at this. Combi weapons, in general, are abundant, and clipping off the barrel of one weapon to convert to another is about as Modelling 101 as it gets.

It's not that I have a particular problem with modelling or conversions. I can give a couple of examples of the GW event I attended:

I've converted a mob of fantasy Black Orcs to be Nobz. As I'm sure you are aware, some of the torsos are modelled so that they are holding a two handed weapon over their heads. I converted these to be holding Big Choppas, added Bosspoles, Stikkbombs, a Waaugh Banner, added Shootas where I could, but a couple of the ones with Big Choppas had that much stuff stuck on to their bodies that there was nowhere physically possible to glue on a shoota.
Someone aggressively complained because I said that the whole unit had twin linked Shootas, as per the codex, and some models weren't displaying any.

I also had 10 Nobz from the AoBR sets. Someone complained because I had said that they were in 'Eavy armour, and that they were modelled differently from the Black Orcs, which I had given 'Eavy armour to as well.

You may think that's fair enough. I just think that's being a dick. But that's just me.

Yep, just being a dick. Move on, they're everywhere and they're out to ruin your fun. Let them, or don't!

Just tell them it's orks! No two meks build things the same way!

Myself and my room mate have a small gaming community of players (about 7-10 MAYBE) and we have been very lax on the wysiwyg issue bu we are actually moving more towards it because one guy uses old 1st ed orks which suck and 1st ed grots and the other guy, have of his stuff is from 1st or 2nd ed and most don't have 2 arms or heads and aren't painted. I have spent the last year or so slowly collecting everything I need to have to be ready for anything i need to run a functioning SM SW army. they are getting squad designations. I have between 13-17 plasma's, melta's and flamers respectively. I have about 40 devs to field anything i need.

This being said. I am not made of money, I am not made of time. its VERY short in both regards. But instead of just sitting idle and having a crappy looking army I aggressively pursued what I wanted and needed on different boards FS/T threads, Craigslist, I did not buy a single model from a hobby shop, I did not get screwed by GW. I have everything I need to run a wysiwyg army. These lazy mothers can be expected to have their models up and running too, this is not my fault and they should be punished because crying poor or no time is just an excuse. If you can't field the army you want then stop playing counts-as hammer and get a job, pay for your hobby and get it done. odds are you won't have to do it again for awhille.

all of that being said. I think if i have Blood claws or Grey hunters that don't have BP's cc weps strapped to their bodys and you have a prob, you can shove it, or GW can make real-scale marines so we have enough room for all this stuff we have to strap to them.

I guess what it comes down to is that wysiwyg should not be an anal thing, it should be more to make sure weapons are model correct. It really isn't that much to ask that you have the models to play a game.

it is an absolute travesty that GAMES WORKSHOP, One of the, if not the largest model gaming companies in the world can't even produce all the models for its flagship game. They rob the players blind by marking up everything so high to account for the only buy once factor. What don't they get about "price something fairly, you will get MORE players therefore more sales"?

I really hate GW as a company someone in the corprate board room needs to put a muzzle on jervis and run this company in a way that promotes gaming 1st and the bottom line a close second

They dont have so many blisters anymore because they take up a huge amount of space, cost more to make and quite importantly dont look as cool on the shelf.

In addition putting EVERY option into a box that you *could* put in a squad results in either:

1) squads can only take one of each weapon. No 4xmissiles long fangs

OR

2) Boxes cost 5x as much, as you have to have 5x the sprues.

Lastly: WYSIWYG is not enforced by tournaments to benefit GW. It is to benefit the opponent you are playing so they dont play musical chairs with what weapons you have (oh look, this is now a combi flamer, not melta, when playing orks) mid tournament.

Try getting three vet squads all with 3 meltas and 2 CCSs all with four plasma guns.

Why are special weapons so hard to find for guard, especially when they're so dependent on them.

I agree, GW piss me off massively in this regard.

I want a few combi meltas an flamers for my sternguard, but they don't sell any! I've been trawling eBay and bitz sights an its a fething piss take. Meltas are going for a fortune and chaplain cassius is the only fether with a cf, whadda they want me to do? Buy him 4 times?

They should sell more blisters, I'd happily pay a tenner for 3 combi melta and 2 cf in a pack.

Or buy normal flamers, chop bolters / stomrbloters, and convert.

You lknow this is a hobby as well as a game, right?

Sure it is. I'm a decent painter, But I've got the conversion skills of an enraged silverback. I can't use transfers either!

I tried making a combi flamer last week, it looked like Stevie Wonder attacked a boltgun with a samurai sword. And I wasted a flamer, you can be elitist and say "oh yeah I can make them easy" but at the end of the day some people like the game more than the hobby, or suck at conversion, so they should sell the fething things!

Now there is an Idea. I wonder if someone on dakka would be kind enough to start a Combi-Weapon making service?

It isnt elitist to suggest making them, and I never said it was easy - however as conversions go one convincing enough for tabletop isnt THAT hard....

End of the day you have it the wrong way round: minis first, then rules. The rules are there to support the minis, not hte other way around. It is why you finally have them realising that NOT having all miniatures available at release is a good thing - it makes people a) use the hobby side more and b) means you can have additional releases.

The old approach was -no model, no rules. MEant you had 6 years between releases, unless you were lucky and got a plastic version of a metal box, for example. Now you can build a HPA for yourself, not field one, or wait for January....

xxvaderxx wrote:

yournamehere wrote:I have never understood the big deal with GW's inability to have all the models, and pieces for them possible. I mean this is a game involving models, I always just assumed if it didn't exist then that only means it shall be modeled. If I only wanted a war strategy game I'm sure I could find a good one for the computer. And there are plenty of options to get just bits from various retailers, it's not that bad.

They are selling 3 wheels cars, which i am sorry to say, i am not buying, i try to keep everything original, but i am not going out of my way to buy missing box parts, i will just mold and copy a combi what ever until they come in the boxes.

If they can do it for DE they can do it for the rest of the range, or they need to reduce the options.

OP do you actually get what WYSIWYG is for?

Or are you just lamenting the fact that you cannot get every codex option in a standard box or blister?

if its the later then yeah its annoying, but not an excuse to start copying and moulding product.

Who the freck cares if all your minis have grenades on them? GW certainly dont.

I do... but only if they are Elfdars...

I think the theory that WYSIWYG is a marketing tool is frankly laughable. It shows someone that hasn't been in the hobby a long time and hasn't read the stuff on the new DE on this very thread.

The first tactical squad box gave you a Sarge with a Powerfist a missile launcher and a flamer and no options to change any. Whilst the first devastator box came with 4 heavy weapons total so again you had no choice as to how they were armed.

Your bits box used to be something that you had to conserve over years and carefully guard. Now you can get practically every option in the codex in 1 box (the commander).

The newer boxes come with all or most of the options in the codex and the new DE release is testamount to this. The newer the codex the more likely the boxed sets will come with the weapon options. They are moving more and more to boxed sets with all the codex options and the fact that they are doing this just blows the "marketing ploy" theory out of the water.

GWs support of the rules with its model range is getting better and better. The multi-stage release for miniatures in a new codex likewise has improved things, allowing armies to get new releases more frequently and allowing new codexes to have more new units.

Personally coming from largely being a 2nd Ed player (though I did play a fair bit of 1st Ed) the difference between now and then is astounding. The support GW does with its terrain ranges and model ranges has really improved the gaming experience and the accessibility of options. Gone are the days where certain units NEVER get a model and certain models NEVER get the rules.

new kits with everything in suck and this is why. marine commander £12 ish these days with all the options type box. marine commander fig from mail order £6-8 quid and the boxed one is plastic. I personally dislike all the waste we are getting with these boxes of figures that make multiple things. we have to pay extra for the box when we wont even use half the stuff. just a pity GW mail order now has the stock levels of santa on boxing day.

paying for extra parts a mugs game in my eyes

http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=82&category_id=24

Bam, magnetic combi weapons.

Good idea Gwar, ill pay £2.50 per combi flamer if anyone wants to make me a few.

Battlecannon it phil wrote:new kits with everything in suck and this is why. marine commander £12 ish these days with all the options type box. marine commander fig from mail order £6-8 quid and the boxed one is plastic. I personally dislike all the waste we are getting with these boxes of figures that make multiple things. we have to pay extra for the box when we wont even use half the stuff. just a pity GW mail order now has the stock levels of santa on boxing day.

paying for extra parts a mugs game in my eyes

See this is the problem. No matter what GW does, it's going to get pounded for it. If they put more options in the box, the prices have to go up, and people complain that they're paying more for options that they will never use. If they cut down on excess options, others complain that they won't be getting the options they want. It's a vicious cycle, and unless GW starts letting us custom-order our sprues and boxes...it's not gonna be fixed. It's just one of those things that exist by the very nature of the hobby.

mattyrm wrote:Good idea Gwar, ill pay £2.50 per combi flamer if anyone wants to make me a few.

Scratch that, buy the ones from chaper house!

/me buys

EmilCrane wrote:Try getting three vet squads all with 3 meltas and 2 CCSs all with four plasma guns.

Why are special weapons so hard to find for guard, especially when they're so dependent on them.

It's really easy, pack of five meltaguns from mailorder plus some grenade launcher or flamer arms. I've got 12 melta guns in my guard army.

Games Workshop DOES support WYSIWYG. Unfortunately, because it's Games Workshop and it involves rules, it's rather poorly supported indeed.

FlingitNow wrote:Personally coming from largely being a 2nd Ed player (though I did play a fair bit of 1st Ed) the difference between now and then is astounding. The support GW does with its terrain ranges and model ranges has really improved the gaming experience and the accessibility of options. Gone are the days where certain units NEVER get a model and certain models NEVER get the rules.

And yet no-one complained about it back then, even though it was much more difficult. You either converted or you used what the model had.

Gwar! wrote:Now there is an Idea. I wonder if someone on dakka would be kind enough to start a Combi-Weapon making service?

You mean like the ones made by Chapterhouse...................

And shouldn't someone that can move this to 40K General since it's just the OPs whine about not getting the parts he wants?

don_mondo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Now there is an Idea. I wonder if someone on dakka would be kind enough to start a Combi-Weapon making service?

You mean like the ones made by Chapterhouse...................

And shouldn't someone that can move this to 40K General since it's just the OPs whine about not getting the parts he wants?

Yeah, I didn't know about the Chapterhouse ones when I made that post.

Moving to 40K discussions.

Sweeeet

I didnt know about those guys! Just ordered 5 sets, delivered for £20.

See, this thread was useful after all!

I also assisted the US economy, considering how much debt you lads are in you should thank the OP!

Indeed. I haven't ordered them yet, but I will be!

yournamehere wrote:I have never understood the big deal with GW's inability to have all the models, and pieces for them possible. I mean this is a game involving models, ....

Exactly, if the rules support the models, then why do they write rules for things that don't exist, and furthermore are not even planned?

Voidbomber?
Tervigon?
Thunderwolves?
etc.

I suspect it is because they write the rules before they make the models in some cases, and of course, because they have classic British planning, quality control and editor influence (as in not much of any of these three). It's almost humorous to see the game creators follow the same pattern as the player base with new projects, as in they don't finish a lot of new armies.

I am really excited about the new Dark Eldar, but in the same breath I'd be sad to be a Tyranid player out there waiting for a Ymgarl Stealers, a Tyrannofex, and Shrikes etc. (Or a Bloodraven gunship, or Vendetta..., or a Hydra,...)

I think that as far as weapon options go, GW is trying to include more and more. Could they do better? I'm sure they could try. Is there a disconnect between the rules-writers and the model-designers? Yes, I'd say there probably is. But I don't think it's a huge problem. Especially with Imperium armies or such, the bits are available, they may not all come in the same kit, but they are available and easily identifiable, so WYSIWYG is quite easy to do.

Whole units that are not in the codex is a bigger problem. I agree that GW could easily have put in some guidelines as to base size and model size, like indicating that stormravens officially should have valkyrie bases, or that tervigons have the same base size as trygons, or something.

The thing is, would you rather have restricted options in the rules while you wait for new model kits? It will never be possible to kit every model kit with every option, and you shouldn't want that. GW models are designed for you and other people you know to collect a fair amount. So as it is now, everyone trades with their friends or buys from other modellers online. If every box of troops came with every option, we'd all be sitting on huge mounds of wasted plastic. I'm perfectly happy to have a huge list of weapon options and have to convert some. Beats the hell out of, say, only being allowed GLs and flamers on IG infantry squads, no bonesword or lash whips on any tyranids but tyrants, etc.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:...It will never be possible to kit every model kit with every option, and you shouldn't want that.

Why shouldn't we want that? I think the IG sprue not having a Plasma rifle and Melta gun in each squad was an apalling mistake and a significant over site. If it was on the heavy weapon sprue or something, fine, but it isn't. In fact, this IS exactly what I want: 'every model kit with every option'!

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:If every box of troops came with every option, we'd all be sitting on huge mounds of wasted plastic.

That's already true for me at least!

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I'm perfectly happy to have a huge list of weapon options and have to convert some. Beats the hell out of, say, only being allowed GLs and flamers on IG infantry squads, no bonesword or lash whips on any Tyranids but tyrants, etc.

Certainly, I know what you mean, trading is fun etc. and I also like conversions and scratch building, but I also don't think it's unreasonable to expect all the squad options in a box or at least as metal pieces and a model for each entry. As GW expands their plastic ranges I would hope one day everything will be like that. I really like the Wyche weapons on the new Dark Eldar sprues for example, and I thought the Gargoyles were just plain awesome. I'd like to see everything like that!

As an addition, if one follows the notes Jes wrote about the dark Eldar development cycle,

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=13000003a

Jes_Goodwin wrote:There are 6 male and 4 female torsos, 10 helmets, 5 bare heads [male and female], all the weapon options you need, parts for a couple of different Sybarites and lots of extras. The frame is cross compatible with the Wyches, other frames in the Dark Eldar range and even some of the Eldar plastics, plenty of scope for conversion and personalisation, so that none of your squads need be the same.

he intentionally made the plastic model torsos and arms compatible across the range for Wyches and Dark Eldar Cabal Warriors etc. This means there's an amazing amount of kit bashing possible for leaders and posing and extra arms knives etc. I think this is the best of both worlds potentially, all the weapon options in each box and cross kit compatibility where everyone's army can have some unique models and scratch built characters are easy.

I think it's unfortunate that this isn't really possible for (whole units) in a range as diverse as marines because of units like Sternguard, but it's a minor criticism.

EDIT: Jes Goodwin Additions

Augustus wrote:I am really excited about the new Dark Eldar, but in the same breath I'd be sad to be a Tyranid player out there waiting for a Ymgarl Stealers, a Tyrannofex, and Shrikes etc. (Or a Bloodraven gunship, or Vendetta..., or a Hydra,...)

Only two of those don't have models (tyrannofex and stormraven). Ymargl stealers are normal stealers with feeder tendrils, shrikes, vendettas and hydras can be had from forgeworld.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I'm perfectly happy to have a huge list of weapon options and have to convert some. Beats the hell out of, say, only being allowed GLs and flamers on IG infantry squads, no bonesword or lash whips on any tyranids but tyrants, etc.

This is the situation with most wargames - you only get the weapons that the models in the boxset come with. (possibly one or two others you can get in a blister).

If the price of having a huge range of options is having to convert or kit-bash some stuff then that's fine with me.

I have been playing 40K for a while, and I for one dont mind spending the extra money to make sure my models follow WYSIWYG. I think at the end of the day, it makes for a better game between you and your opponent. But then again, I am also the guy making sound effects everytime my guys die, so making sure my models match what is going on in game is important to me.

I will have to agree though with the frustration some people have in regards to units that have rules, but no models. I for one am a Tyranid player, and there are so many new nid units that dont have a model. My biggest fear is that if I did make some horrid looking conversion, it would

1) require me to usualy buy a trygon & carnifex kit for 1 conversion &
2) my conversion would be done, then GW would release a model that was proportioned completely different.

I do understand however, that GW can only put out some many models for a certain army at a time, and that hey want to stagger releases to generate interest in an army after its initial launch. Nothing that they do is going to make everyone happy, so in the meantime, while I wait for new nid models, I am just going to continue building all the rest of the nid models I want, and supplimenting my model addiction with maifaux and Bloodbowl

This is why there are several websites that cater to just bits. Works out nice too, you can buy exactly what you need to make your conversion. Ebay can be a good place to get bits as well.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Augustus wrote:I am really excited about the new Dark Eldar, but in the same breath I'd be sad to be a Tyranid player out there waiting for a Ymgarl Stealers, a Tyrannofex, and Shrikes etc. (Or a Bloodraven gunship, or Vendetta..., or a Hydra,...)

Only two of those don't have models (tyrannofex and stormraven). Ymargl stealers are normal stealers with feeder tendrils, shrikes, vendettas and hydras can be had from forgeworld.

ORLY? Show me here:

http://www.games-workshop.com

Forge World sucks.

There I said it. Everything I have ever ordered from them has been low casting quality, occasionally chipped, often warped or distorted, poorly proportioned, brittle, and generally poorly fit in the first place as well, besides being monstrously expensive with absurd shipping rates.

Even assuming that we count Forgeworld, what about op Sternguard? or the VoidBomber, Librarian Dreadnought? Death Company Dread? Vendetta? Doom of Malanti? Flying Rippers? Tervigon? Thunder wolf Cavalry?

Just like many players, GW never seems to finish their own new armies either. It is a recurring pattern.

Augustus - then you are in the minority. Did you call them to ask about the issues you have?

Vendetta conversion kit, forgeworld. Flyng rippers, forgeworld.

You will find you are so wrong. The OLD method was - all models in a coex have to be available day 1. So you had a codex release, then nothing. Or you had units cut because there was no model. Etc.

Now, you have options. And still people complain. NOTHING they can do will please everyone, at least this way I have OPTIONS to build more interesting armies. Your method would negate that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Augustus - then you are in the minority. Did you call them to ask about the issues you have? ...you have options. And still people complain. NOTHING they can do will please everyone, at least this way I have OPTIONS to build more interesting armies. Your method would negate that.

I would think calling Forgeworld with quality concerns would be a waste based on one experience I had with that, when I built the old Valkyrie kit (long before the current plastic one) I had curved doors, they told me to soak them in hot water...

I like options. I like room for scratch building. I'm glad there is variety too.

I don't think they have to have everything day one. (Honestly I don't ever remember a time of 'everything day one' policy, and I have been playing for, well, ever). I like staggered releases, just to know things are coming is all I'd like. However writing (codex) entries for things with no basis even for a model is unfortunate.

Am I in the minority (for not liking forge world or for wanting all the kits to be made)? Either way, I can accept that, fair enough.

Lolz at bit sites charging thru the ass for popular bits and only carrying a handful of them.

Augustus wrote:about op Sternguard? or the VoidBomber, Librarian Dreadnought? Death Company Dread? Vendetta? Doom of Malanti? Flying Rippers? Tervigon? Thunder wolf Cavalry?

Sternguard models are available from GW. Vendetta and flying rippers from forgeworld. Clawed dreadnought arms, forgeworld. Forceweapon dreadnought arms, forgeworld.

Tervigon & Thunderwolves, fair enough. Those are two of the three most recent codexes though - you can't expect all of the new stuff immediately. It makes more sense to trickle it out and use it as a way of reviving interest in the line.

Voidbomber - the codex isn't even out yet and you're complaining about lack of model? If you're going to pull that then why not bitch about all of the dark eldar range - there's practically nothing available at the moment.

Augustus wrote:I had curved doors, they told me to soak them in hot water...

That's what you have to do with resin - it often distorts as it cools, just one of those things.


At the moment Marines, Orks, Eldar, Chaos, Daemons, Templars, Tau, Necrons all have pretty much everything.
Guard are missing the colossus
Blood Angels are missing the stormraven
Wolves are missing the wolves
Nids are missing the Tervigon, Tyrannofex and Harpy
Dark Eldar are missing a bunch of stuff but that's not a suprise.

That's not too bad really, in my opinion.

THing is, even though a lot of the models are available from Forge World, not every person is: a) willing/able to pay up for it or b) wants to deal with added difficulties of working with resin.

However, I'm also not in favor of having GW put every possible option for every possible unit in each box. Not having some of those bitz kind of encourages the hobby community to look at alternative ways to build them or otherwise get the model. Think about how many cool conversions you've seen because a person wanted a model, but GW didn't provide access to that model for them.

Case in point:

The Mr. Potato Head Stompa. While this is exaggerating, and the guy who built this would have built it regardless of whether or not the GW plastic kit existed or not, we have to remember that giving us a chance to add our own variety to the tabletop is kind of a major aspect of 40k. Not all Forge Worlds use the same patterns, and nothing looks the same when the Orks are involved. Not giving us a model for EVERYTHING kind of helps to encourage that kind of diversity.

I'm so into Wysiwig, I dress as my general.

Sucks when I play my sisters...that corset is tight.

I was asked to leave a Gamesday though...I was playing my Slannesh Daemonnets army.....

I don't mind it if GW releases codexes without the models or bits available. Early 4ed GW was doing quite the opposite -- if there was not a current model then it was cut from the codex. eg 4ed marine dex had two razorback options and that was it. Same with dread options, they jetisoned most of them since they weren't in the kit.

So I am glad GW has instead added some options and units that give them opportunities to release new goods later on. Or so that those hobbiest like myself are free to make their own.

Now availability of common bits and sprues needed for WYSWIG -- I will go on record as lamenting the end of their bits service and option to buy indvidual sprues. The bits services are filling that void to some degree but not in the same manner as old.

Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

Today I decided to completely alter my command squad from a horrible load out (built before I got to play my first sm game) to something that should hopefully be usable. 20 min. on ebay, $12 Canadian (whats that, like a 5er for you in the UK?) and a 10 min scrounge through my bits box and I have everything I need to change all but 1 model over to a new load out. Not to mention new bits freed up for use.

This is why I just don't see such a huge problem, can it be annoying? Sure, but it is easily solvable and nothing to get up tight about.

I'm going to post this as a bitter Tyranid ex-player.

I didn't like the looks of the extended armor on the genestealers, but I wanted the improved 4+ armor save, so I put those bits on every one of my genestealers. They now do nothing.

I put scything talons on all of my Warriors and some broods of my Genestealers because I liked the looks, and the rules. They changed the rules.

I bought bits to be able to equip one entire squad of genestealers with feeder tendrils. Those now do nothing.

I put flesh hooks on several squads for the benefits of moving through terrain and assaulting into cover. They eliminated those rules.


Don't buy, model, or paint stuff that you don't want to buy, model, or paint, regardless of GW rules or WYSIWYG. First, it is your money, time, and effort. Second, it is entirely possible that GW will then simply change the rules, so that your time, money, and effort go to waste. If GW would make a lasting commitment to particular rules, then I might be much more likely to support their WYSIWYG stance. For instance, given that every thing in the rules costs points, they could change points costs rather than rules, if a particular rule is too weak or too strong.

However, they have shown a repeated willingness to simply make previous rules (and WYSIWIG wargear) extinct, thus negating the efforts of people who attempted to jump through their hoops. Model the model the way you want. Buy, paint and play with non-GW models. Don't go to their tournaments if they don't allow you. If they don't want customers, don't be one.

Can you also spot the guy who removed the purity seals from every single one of his Space Wolf models, because Space Wolves couldn't have them? Also the guy who made sure that all the guys with grenades were actually equipped with them? They guy who made sure the Wolf Tail Talisman and Wolf Tooth Necklace was present on every Space Wolf who had one, and NOT present on the ones who didn't? The guy who correctly equipped all of his Ork Commandos with their optional Tankbusta bombs, buying metal Tankbustas to cut up to do so, only to have that option removed in the new Codex? The guy who hoarded all of the Chain-Choppas to make his Skarboys distinctive, only to have them removed from the new Codex?

It took me a while to pick up the lesson GW was trying to teach me, but I finally got it. They don't care what you do with the stuff they sell you. They want your money. Reciprocally, you shouldn't care what they want YOU to do with the stuff you bought from them. Those belong to you now.

I don't want that to sound like I hate GW entirely. I have met a lot of really nice people who work, or have worked there. Even some of the people I most strenuously disagree with (JJ) are very nice, cool people. I love their "universe", most of their fiction, and almost all of their imagery. However, they cannot make any sort of commitment to you that the modeling project that you might undertake to meet with their rules and guidelines won't be obsoleted (or even illegal) in a rule set that might be a year, or a month, away. If you are planning on enjoying the hobby for longer than that, plan accordingly.

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

2 SW wolf pack Boxes, and a blister of 5 Meltas.

Sure the blister will cost an extra $8; but alternatively you can find any length of small tubing around your house(or chop the Forearms, off of some of your spare arms, and yes you will have plenty) and fit that tubing(or forearm), after trimming, to the end of 2 bolters, and one of the barrels of 2 storm bolters. Remember to cut the clips off of the 2 regular bolters.

There you have it 2 10-man squads outfitted exactly as you want them and it will only cost you $74.50 or $82.50(USD, and GW List price)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Augustus - then you are in the minority. Did you call them to ask about the issues you have?

Forgeworld - pay twice as much for half the quality.

If he's in the minority, it's because the only people who order from failworld anymore are the devotees.

RisingPhoenix wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Augustus - then you are in the minority. Did you call them to ask about the issues you have?

Forgeworld - pay twice as much for half the quality.

If he's in the minority, it's because the only people who order from failworld anymore are the devotees.

My Valk from FW sucked ass and is now bits of a LR Steam Tank counts as and a some futuristic flyer - Total crap from FW.

My other purchases have been great.

Generalise much?

Did you contact them with your dissatisfaction, and give them a chance to rectify the situation.

Because I've never-ever heard of FW refusing the opportunity to.

My valk was £20 from GD 2009 and it was tainted by evil and afflicted by bad luck.

FW are always good when it comes to miscasts and warped damaged parts. Whenever I have had a problem they have always resolved it.

ChrisWWII wrote:THing is, even though a lot of the models are available from Forge World, not every person is: a) willing/able to pay up for it

The same applies to stuff straight from GW. If you find a model to be too expensive then convert something or don't take it. I don't have any marine bikes - I think that £7 each is just ridiculous.

ChrisWWII wrote:However, I'm also not in favor of having GW put every possible option for every possible unit in each box. Not having some of those bitz kind of encourages the hobby community to look at alternative ways to build them or otherwise get the model. Think about how many cool conversions you've seen because a person wanted a model, but GW didn't provide access to that model for them.

Also, if that was the rule, I can only see the options shrinking. Can you imagine them putting two of every heavy weapon, ten of every combiweapon and 2 each of every CCW option in a box with ten sternguard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Now, you have options. And still people complain. NOTHING they can do will please everyone, at least this way I have OPTIONS to build more interesting armies. Your method would negate that.

I don't understand why having an option that there's no model for is a problem for some people. You don't want to convert it (or buy it from forgeworld) then take something else.

Da Butcha wrote:I'm going to post this as a bitter Tyranid ex-player.

I didn't like the looks of the extended armor on the genestealers, but I wanted the improved 4+ armor save, so I put those bits on every one of my genestealers. They now do nothing.

I put scything talons on all of my Warriors and some broods of my Genestealers because I liked the looks, and the rules. They changed the rules.

I bought bits to be able to equip one entire squad of genestealers with feeder tendrils. Those now do nothing.

I put flesh hooks on several squads for the benefits of moving through terrain and assaulting into cover. They eliminated those rules.

Fair points about the flesh hooks and armour, but scything talons are still pretty good. And while they changed the rules, they still gave +1A to models that have them in their base stat line most of the time (for example, Hormagaunts were basic Gaunts in the 4th edition codex. Now they're 2A Hormagaunts which also reroll 1's in assault.

However, I just don't put biomorphs on my models. I don't like them, and my group of friends won't care if I use biomorph rules, as long as it's obvious which models have what. But hey, that's a problem with the 5th ed Tyranid codex, they just ripped out 3/4 of the options and put nothing in their place.

xxvaderxx wrote:

yournamehere wrote:I have never understood the big deal with GW's inability to have all the models, and pieces for them possible.....They are selling 3 wheels cars, which i am sorry to say, i am not buying, i try to keep everything original, but i am not going out of my way to buy missing box parts, i will just mold and copy a combi what ever until they come in the boxes....If they can do it for DE they can do it for the rest of the range, or they need to reduce the options.

They are selling 3 wheels cars, which i am sorry to say, i am not buying, i try to keep everything original, but i am not going out of my way to buy missing box parts, i will just mold and copy a combi what ever until they come in the boxes.

If they can do it for DE they can do it for the rest of the range, or they need to reduce the options.

As many posters have stated, WYSIWYG is there to make it easier for people to tell what is on the table, without needing to consult the army list all the time.

Nothing is forcing you to take, say, four Plasma Cannons in your devastator box. It's an option, because options make the game interesting, but a relatively uncommon one, and it's your choice if you want to do it.

You seem to be in favour of GW offering LESS options/models/weapon options in the codex just so that every model kit is 'complete'. A similar argument arose a few weeks ago about GW not releasing model kits for certain units. I have the same answer to both.

GW have a limit to how many plastic kits they can release. Yes, they could 'dumb down' every Codex so that the only options you have are the ones they can physically manufacture, but this would make the game less interesting. There is absolutely no disadvantage to fill the codex full of interesting, fun, cool units that spark the imagination of the players, whether GW can manufacture models for them or not. You lose nothing by including these 'modelless units', but you gain a lot in army variety, fluff, possibility for theme, and in the cool conversions that result.

Your theory seems to be "There is no boxed set for IG Veterans, so unless they're prepared to release a box of 10 vets with 3 plasma, 3 melta, 3 flamer, one of each heavy weapon team, demolitions upgrade, carapace armour parts, camo cloaks and various Sgt weapons, they should remove Vets from the game". Or, just give Vets less options. Either of these 'solutions' would stunt the creativity of players and make IG more identikit and less varied. It's a terrible idea.

Augustus wrote:
I would think calling Forgeworld with quality concerns would be a waste based on one experience I had with that, when I built the old Valkyrie kit (long before the current plastic one) I had curved doors, they told me to soak them in hot water...

You do realise it is resin, not in jection molded plastic, dont you? Resin warps and bends much more easily, however by the same token heating and reshaping is easy.

They told you exactly the eright thing to do. I suggest some research on the materials next time.

However if you have *actual* problems (missing parts, mis-molds) then I have never, ever, in 6 years of dealing with them, ever had them refuse to help me or any of my friends. In fact normally they send out replacements immediately via special delivery (g'teed next day by 9am) with profuse apologies. Hell once they even paid for my macharius hull mismold to go back to their QA (it was a horrid, easy to spot mismold. Like half the hull) so they could "beat them round the head with it" and sent *2* full kits in replacement, 1 as you would expect and 1 for the (VERY minor) inconvenience of sending the mismold back. At a time when the macharius vulcan was outselling everything 2:1 and had a huge backlog...hope I didnt annoy someone else too much who had to wait longer for theirs!

FW customer service is *fantastic* with actual issues. Not understanding the product is not an issue they can deal with.

Augustus wrote:I don't think they have to have everything day one. (Honestly I don't ever remember a time of 'everything day one' policy, and I have been playing for, well, ever). I like staggered releases, just to know things are coming is all I'd like. However writing (codex) entries for things with no basis even for a model is unfortunate.

4th ed policy, in essence. If there was no model available day 1, it just got cut from the codex. Marked change in 5th era is that they have realised that staggered is good, and releasing new models

Augustus wrote:Am I in the minority (for not liking forge world or for wanting all the kits to be made)? Either way, I can accept that, fair enough.

I think most people who dislike forgeworld expect resin == injection molded plastic. It isnt. Which is good, because it can do things you cannot do currently (greater detail, undercuts, etc) but it comes at a cost - more labour intensive, by far, higher failure rate during production, etc. If you temper expectations by realising that you will have to do some work (e.g. clearing off the surface release fluid) you have a better outlook on the product.

ChrisWWII - agreed that not everyone wants to deal with Forgeworld, however that is then preference - you cannot complain there is no model, be pointed to one, and then complain it is too hard / costs too much - neither are valid complaints!

I am DEFINITELY against them putting every codex weapon combo in the box. You should get 1 of each - otherwise you would have to provide:

Dev box = 4 x lascannon, missile, multimelta, plasma cannon,...
= 75% wastage on weapons alone. So expect 4 times the cost of the box - happy to pay £80 for 5 models that come with 75% extra you will not use?

Da Butcha - so your models which provided a ROI over what, 4 years on average you will now not bother with? And you belive this is GWs fault? Should they have to support, ad infinitum, every model and every option in every codex, never changing the rules?

You are also wrong; it isn't THEIR rules on WYSIWYG (the actual rules on wysiwyg only apply, apart from Eldar, to upgrade andn other characters. Noone else) but any tournament tha tenforces it. And that is at the behest of annoyed TOs wanting to be able to do something abotu people who cheat.

Rising Phoenix - awesome post, really added value. Any other useful generalities backed up with absolutely nothing of any relevance you care to provide?

Scott - agreed. If they provide bland codexes, people complain. So they add options in for more interesting stuff, but cant produce all the new models initially (as people dont understand that you need room on the machines to produce the new sprues, or really anything about how manufacturing works in reality and not their own fantasies) so people complain. They include more options in a box (seriously, compare sprues from even 3 years ago to current models. The amount of free space is significantly lower - so you get a higher part density on the same area) but that requires more work, so the prices go up. And then people complan that the prices are too high and STILL complain that they cannot produce a 4 missile Dev squad from a single box, ignoring that to have all the options would push the price even higher....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Dev box = 4 x lascannon, missile, multimelta, plasma cannon,...
= 75% wastage on weapons alone. So expect 4 times the cost of the box - happy to pay £80 for 5 models that come with 75% extra you will not use?

This is exactly the situation with IG HWSs currently. It's nice to have all of the options in the box but it's clearly making it much more expensive.

I would just like to add that plastics price is measured in cents per pound... so it costs nearly nothing to add all options to a sprue (especially since they seem to think adding useless things and extra basic weapons is ok). Changeover isn't even a real issue with the volume they make.

The price of GW models has to do with other factors, not the cost of materials. GWs prices have to do with a large overhead of brick and mortar stores (which don't always do well...) the debt they accrued from growing their stores (and a few mistakes and other issues), and from marketing their IP. If they were to get rid of the stores, they could do business with much smaller income per unit.

I also have to point out that forge world doesn't put out the highest quality resin models. The sculpts look really good, but the QA isn't the greatest, and they have issues with the blend they use (sometimes too much filler, which affects the brittleness). I've used a fair amount of resin both in work and in hobbies, and I know they can easily use a better blend for just a little bit more (of their cost, their margins should really be good as is... except it is British labor isn't it?)

It is a bit frustrating to be a nids player and have three MCs (tervigon, tyrranofex and harpy) where not only is there no model there's not even a guide of how to covert or what base size to use (MC vs Trygon). The special characters I don't mind so much. That at least you know what the base model is (tyrant for swarmlord for example) and you can just do a bit of extra dressing on the model to get it to stand out. Still an effort should be made to make them somehow look different, even if it's just a different paint job so the opponent can say "oh the pink ones are carnifexes and the lavender ones are tervigons."

To me as others have already said, it is about being able to look at the models and differentiating what weapons they have. If there are any exceptions they should be noted before the game starts.

Scott and Nosferatu: Oh, I know and completely understand. I don't want GW to make out a model for EVERYTHING just because I'm too lazy to convert one, or cough up the money to buy from FW. E.g. I really want Hydras, but I don't want to pay for FW Hydras. Solution? Standard Chimera chassis conversion to a Hydra. Simple, easy and done! (Though I may have to use the Bassie kit for that...ehh...) I'll find a way to make the Hydra, and I recognize that the complaint isn't valid....just something I should toss out there.

But yes. I think all of us agree it's just ridiculous to put every possible option into every possible box. Just think about that would mean for a unit as simple a IG Veterans. To give them EVERY option, you would need: 3 of every special weapon, 1 of each Heavy Weapon, as well as all the other miscellaneous bitz they toss in with IG. That would simply be ridiculous, and really add to the amount of waste in plastic.

And I somehow doubt most of the cost of GW comes from the plastic itself. I'm willing to bet much more of the cost comes from the amount of money it took to develop and sculpt the original model, as well as the cost required to make molds detailed enough to produce them. That and transport. I'm guessing that's where most of the cost for GW models comes from, and why a bunch of plastic Guardsmen is about 10x more expensive than larger box of little green army men.

notabot187 wrote:I would just like to add that plastics price is measured in cents per pound... so it costs nearly nothing to add all options to a sprue (especially since they seem to think adding useless things and extra basic weapons is ok). Changeover isn't even a real issue with the volume they make.

Assuming you discount the costs of design, mould making, packaging, etc.

And do you really think they produce large volume? They make an incredibly niche product. Most action figures outsell GW products dramatically. How many people do you think play 40K?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ramongoroth wrote:It is a bit frustrating to be a nids player and have three MCs (tervigon, tyrranofex and harpy) where not only is there no model there's not even a guide of how to covert or what base size to use (MC vs Trygon).

I agree with this 100% - there should have been an article in WD or on the website explaining what base size and roughly what size they should be.

Don't forget the moulds cost OMFGBBQ money, especially for such a tiny company like GW. IIRC they only recently started making a profit again after all the money they spent on LOTR stuff.

I think their last years profit was like £3.5m? That's pissmoney compared to something like Mattel, who make Bajillions.

Gwar! wrote:Don't forget the moulds cost OMFGBBQ money, especially for such a tiny company like GW. IIRC they only recently started making a profit again after all the money they spent on LOTR stuff.

I think their last years profit was like £3.5m? That's pissmoney compared to something like Mattel, who make Bajillions.

Just to throw some numbers in - in 2007 Transformers toys sold for double GW's total sales. Don't forget that GW runs a huge number of product lines all with their own costs. In comparison the transformers range is a relatively small number of products.

Great, Dark Eldar Warriors with massive loincloths. Just what I needed to see in the morning.

The reason is simple: money! GW makes money off of conversions, and besides, conversions work as a bit of advertisement for the hobby anyway.

Scott-S6 wrote:This is exactly the situation with IG HWSs currently. It's nice to have all of the options in the box but it's clearly making it much more expensive.

Actually, I love HWS boxes. I used the excess weapons to build the lascannons for my vendettas, TLLC for my AOBR Dread, twin linked HB, my counts-as Harker, a Sentinel that was missing a lascannon... Really, those are the one set of excess bitz that I've used the hell out of. Oh, plus using each of the crouching guys with a standing guy on a base is an awesome way to milk two HWS out of a single kit.

Scott-S6 wrote:

notabot187 wrote:I would just like to add that plastics price is measured in cents per pound... so it costs nearly nothing to add all options to a sprue (especially since they seem to think adding useless things and extra basic weapons is ok). Changeover isn't even a real issue with the volume they make.

Assuming you discount the costs of design, mould making, packaging, etc.

And do you really think they produce large volume? They make an incredibly niche product. Most action figures outsell GW products dramatically. How many people do you think play 40K?

Design is a one time charge, considering how often they change their models for most ranges, yes I will discount that. The tooling is expensive, but once again, it is a one time charge. Packaging is cheap too. Marketing is where you get some nasty costs...

As for volume: You don't need that much volume to make injection molding profitable. GW is well over that threshold. Their costs have to do with overhead. They have a large store network that generally is not profitable, or marginally so. Other companies sell metal models for less than GW sells plastics, at MUCH lower volume... but they don't have brick and mortar building with sales staff that must be paid sales or no sales.

50 bucks for assault terminators, who don't really require any more cost than a 25 dollar box of scouts. The expense is NOT in the actual product, but paying for every thing else. This includes rules support (lol) marketing, payment of debt incurred, high cost of employment (GB isn't a cheap or efficient place to run a factory), and taxes on all the retail properties they own. 1 percent profit selling 50 cent boxes of plastic for 50 bucks is what I think they managed last year. That after a 10 percent price hike.

Of course, their is the retail markup, which in GW products is only about 90 percent from wholesale price. Which is lower than the average retail markup. (most non food items have markups from about 100 percent to 200... which is why stores still make money when things are half off)

notabot187 wrote:Of course, their is the retail markup, which in GW products is only about 90 percent from wholesale price. Which is lower than the average retail markup. (most non food items have markups from about 100 percent to 200... which is why stores still make money when things are half off)

Some areas it's much higher than that. At my last job our customers (consumer electrical retailers) would typically markup in the region of 350%. More if they were in a remote area and could get away with it.

Fast food has a Markup of approximately 850%.

Where I used to work, A Hamburger cost 19¢ to make, and the normal price was €1.60.

And yet GW manages to support a huge product range and a massive network of retail stores with a pretty modest markup. Doesn't stop everyone complaining about prices though.

Actually the cost of a normal sprue for their current machines is around £30k to make the mold.

You also assume that they have space on the machines, whcih themselves cost 1 - 2million apiece.

They only made profit on the OLD plastic rhino the year they stopped selling it.

The thing that pisses me off the most (ignoring the forgeworld thing, glad so many people have had great experiences there, and I wish me and more of my friends did too) is that GW RELIES on models with this availability.

Take Malifaux. Smaller company, and definitely doesn't have some models yet. But each model has a base size and height in the manual. So if you fielded a base with some other model on it as a conversion, it's still height 2 or whatever, can still be shot by the same things, still has the same base size and fits in the same places and does the same things.

GW, if I model a Tervigon as some brood mother lying down with eggs and gaunts spawning around her, and someone else models it as a roaring monstrosity with gaunts and swarms climbing up and down her, I get cover saves in situations where he doesn't. And which one of us is right? Well, watch people whine about modeling for advantage and all that... Hell, I had someone yell at me for a LR converted into a BW, and I'm generous about where side armor is when I'm using that model. But I was somehow cheating because the LR model is squarer than the BW model, when the BW model didn't exist for a long time... great job, GW.

Scott-S6 wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:However, I'm also not in favor of having GW put every possible option for every possible unit in each box. Not having some of those bitz kind of encourages the hobby community to look at alternative ways to build them or otherwise get the model. Think about how many cool conversions you've seen because a person wanted a model, but GW didn't provide access to that model for them.

Also, if that was the rule, I can only see the options shrinking. Can you imagine them putting two of every heavy weapon, ten of every combiweapon and 2 each of every CCW option in a box with ten sternguard?

Actually yes i could, A- Reduce Codex options, B- Talking wolf standard, take out the useless 2 handed axe and may be a couple of bare heads (scouts ones for instance) and include 1 Flamer and 1 Melta. Done you are golden every option in the Claw/Hunters unit represented. All the bits to represent combis in WG. No added cost. They could have done it if they would have wanted to. But then again, if they do they cant sell you the 8 pound 4th wheel sprue.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Augustus wrote:
I would think calling Forgeworld with quality concerns would be a waste based on one experience I had with that, when I built the old Valkyrie kit (long before the current plastic one) I had curved doors, they told me to soak them in hot water...

You do realize it is resin, not injection molded plastic, dont you? Resin warps and bends much more easily, however by the same token heating and reshaping is easy.

They told you exactly the right thing to do. I suggest some research on the materials next time.

I read this flippant dismissal, do I know it's resin? suggest some research? reshaping is easy? Right thing to do?

First off I see you are in the UK by your little flag, I suppose that makes you use to low quality, maybe they get replacement parts out there easier, not in my experience here in the US, as I said 'soak it in water' was what I got, not new parts, on to the technical stuff.

SOAK IT IN WARM WATER?

You have to be kidding, even suggesting this is absurd, it demonstrates that you have no idea how resin works. Resin is a chemical cure, once a piece is fabricated deformed and cures it doesn't matter how warm it gets afterward, it is hard and shaped and cured, it's never going to be strait, flat or right angled again. Furthermore resin is not as flexible as injection molded plastic, it is brittle, if you flex it instead of bending when it reaches the critical point it breaks. It doesn't have the ductile property of plastic at all, which is why suggesting to heat and bend it it ridiculous.

It's a cover customer support scam for low production quality.

I have seen thie first hand in many forgeworld kits I built, mostly for distraut people who came to me for help including:
Revenant Pulse Laser Arms
Tau Battle Suit Rail Guns
Rhino and Landraider Doors
Valkyrie Doors
Imperial Armored crew compartment insets
Thunder hawk gunship landing struts
Epic Leman Russ Tank Barrels and Track sides

Their process is incredibly low quality. I have built other resin kits from more manufacturers, particularly for Japanese kits, including precision sport bike bodies, and let me tell you forge world are complete amateurs (still)!

Instead of flippantly dismissing someone else's analysis how about you go do some research, like the first hand kind?

Back OT, even if you consider FW an alternative, what about THE KIT, all the forgeworld stuff is simply ad ons! The options should come in the box, and no I don't think a devastator box should come with 20 heavy weapons 5 of each option, but it is a great example as it DOES have at least one of each option and a couple extra, that's how everything should be.

As to kits with no kit at all, variety is great but how do you even know how big to make something when they do that? Or what base to use, if at all.

The defiler was a great example of this, I remember when they first came out, people were using metal chaos dreadnoughts with a battle cannon on them. Look at the model today, that was grossly mis sized and easy to hide compared to the massive footprint of a defiler. See how no kit is bad?

I agree with you Augustus, it is not a matter of if you could, is a matter of why should you. Would it be considered conversion, then ok you have to put your skills into it, but we are talking by the book codex standard troops. The 10 gray hunter/blood claw box does not even come with 10 bolters for crying out loud.

Sure!

I also wanted to say, I love that awesome potato head Stompa!

Um, perhaps before dismissing my supposed lack of first hand knowledge, you could have read the rest of the thread?

You are talking complete and utter rubbish. Having built about 20 - 30 models (most for myself, some for others) from FW, all the way up to a Chaos Warhound (which is more challenging than the reaver, by far), I can state with 100% certainty that heating in warm water and *gently* bending and shaping, repeating on occasion, WILL reshape warping.

It can be brittle, if you are too rough or too quick. But patience works.

And used to low quality in UK? A place where 2 year warranties are a legal minimum cf to the US 90 days, I doubt the UK is the one with the issues.

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

You buy two tactical squads and a SW box. Use the extra bits for long fangs and maybe scouts or something else. And then find the combi-meltas any way you can like every other SM player has since GW started offering combi-weapons as options.

Or complain and next time GW won't include combi-weapons as an option since they aren't readily available (eg the point made above the one you quoted).

winterman wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

You buy two tactical squads and a SW box. Use the extra bits for long fangs and maybe scouts or something else. And then find the combi-meltas any way you can like every other SM player has since GW started offering combi-weapons as options.

Or complain and next time GW won't include combi-weapons as an option since they aren't readily available (eg the point made above the one you quoted).

So, buy 3 kits to make 1, i am sure more than one politician would not see anything wrong with that...

Think of all the stuff you could make with the extras from that!

(At least you can get the pieces somehow.)

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

You buy two tactical squads and a SW box. Use the extra bits for long fangs and maybe scouts or something else. And then find the combi-meltas any way you can like every other SM player has since GW started offering combi-weapons as options.

Or complain and next time GW won't include combi-weapons as an option since they aren't readily available (eg the point made above the one you quoted).

So, buy 3 kits to make 1, i am sure more than one politician would not see anything wrong with that...

It's actually 3 to make 2

I like WYSIWYG. I am a hobbyist as well as a gamer, so I have always enjoyed the converting and sometimes outright fabrication of necessary parts to make my army work.

yournamehere wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

You buy two tactical squads and a SW box. Use the extra bits for long fangs and maybe scouts or something else. And then find the combi-meltas any way you can like every other SM player has since GW started offering combi-weapons as options.

Or complain and next time GW won't include combi-weapons as an option since they aren't readily available (eg the point made above the one you quoted).

So, buy 3 kits to make 1, i am sure more than one politician would not see anything wrong with that...

It's actually 3 to make 2

No it is not, you need 4 meltas and 2 power fists to make the units, if a tactical brings 1, then it is 3 kits to make 1.

Augustus wrote:
SOAK IT IN WARM WATER?

You have to be kidding, even suggesting this is absurd, it demonstrates that you have no idea how resin works. Resin is a chemical cure, once a piece is fabricated deformed and cures it doesn't matter how warm it gets afterward, it is hard and shaped and cured, it's never going to be strait, flat or right angled again. Furthermore resin is not as flexible as injection molded plastic, it is brittle, if you flex it instead of bending when it reaches the critical point it breaks. It doesn't have the ductile property of plastic at all, which is why suggesting to heat and bend it it ridiculous.

Have you actually tried this? When it gets warm enough resin gets very soft. You can actually make a panel like a door floppy. You use a ruler or a tile to get it straight/flat and either let or cool or plunge it into cold water.

See the hair on the FW keeper of secrets? It's moulded straight. You warm it and shape it. See the hoses for the elysian flamers? moulded straight, you warm them and shape them.

ETA, if you do a google search you'll find loads of sites talking about this. For example
"Resin is very heat sensitive, only use very hot water or a hair dryer when you need to reshape a distorted part. Slight distortion of resin parts when demoulding or during storage is quite common & can easily be corrected by immersing the distorted part in hot water for a few seconds, re-shaping as required by hand & then immersing in cold water to `fix` the new shape."

It's very weird to see Augustus demonstrate that he has no idea how resin works.

IMO, the WYSIWYG rule is to ease the player to know what kind of equipment his/her opponent has on the table without relying on any data sheet.

I myself will always prepaid an army list so if any thing happens, I can show it to my opponent to indicate my army does have the listed options. To me that is fair and simple.

Scott - The best thing was that, despite being told to do this by the people who actually MAKE THE MODELS the poster instead ranted about how that was such a bad idea as they knew better....

Scott-S6 wrote:And yet GW manages to support a huge product range and a massive network of retail stores with a pretty modest markup. Doesn't stop everyone complaining about prices though.

Sorry to chime in but the mark up everyone is talking about is a 2 tier system one for their own stores, the second for other retailers. over the past 5 to 6 years the profit margin for other retailers has been slowly cut by GW demanding more for the cost of the product, while also demanding Retaiers sell it at a fixed rate witch does not reflect the first mark up. ie: other retailers are making less and less money selling Gw stuff.

the fact is that GW stuff has a huge mark up on its products in some cases (but do to the nature of their standardization of pricing this really isnt a point) other than you give GW more money by buying direct or from a GW store), they make the most cash by internet sales direct to the customers, fallowed then by their own stores, and finally the lowest profit comes in retailers.
i dont know where your getting your info that GW has a low markup but it simply isnt true, the cost of making something that retails direct from GW for 30€ costs on average to make around 8 to 10 € (at the extream). they make 14 or 15€ offa retailer. unless they sell it to a retaier the price falls outside of what is called a normal markup. (of corse this info is out of date by about 3 years, but the trend at the time was that GW each year was making more profit per item not less.) only by comparing it to the retailers do you see a resonable and 'normal ' markup. the online direct or store markup is actually quite high compared to other companines selling similar products. this is actually very important. consider that selling to retailers uses a traditional mark up system, it is getting narrower but well within norms. its the direct sale and GW store sales that have you over the hood of the car with your pants down with out even a kiss. GW in no way has a modest mark up. It has a normal to slightly above averge one.

im not trying to argue a point here. belive what you want, it wont effect me in the slightest. ive seen the real numbers from a few stores concerning GW, and spent some time looking at GW's escalation of prices (no not what you the consumer pay) i know how most companies set mark up and pricings and the therrories behind it.


Sorry. edited for smoothness and clarification.

To the OP its anoying that GW does not put out every model they have a listing for in the army books and codexes. they say its so people can have some fedom to convert and let their imaginations run wild. me personally i think they are just lazy.

Hawkins wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:And yet GW manages to support a huge product range and a massive network of retail stores with a pretty modest markup. Doesn't stop everyone complaining about prices though.

Sorry to chime in but the mark up everyone is talking about is a 2 tier system one for their own stores, the second for other retailers. over the past 5 to 6 years the profit margin for other retailers has been slowly cut by GW demanding more for the cost of the product, while also demanding Retaiers sell it at a fixed rate witch does not reflect the first mark up. ie: other retailers are making less and less money selling Gw stuff.

the fact is that GW stuff has a huge mark up on its products, they make the most cash by internet sales direct to the customers, fallowed then by retailers, and finally the lowest profit comes in from their own stores.
i dont know where your getting your info that GW has a low markup but it simply isnt true, the cost of making something that retails direct from GW for 30€ costs on average to make around 8 to 10 €. they make 14 or 15€ offa retailer. unless they sell it to a retaier the price falls outside of what is called a normal markup. (of corse this info is out of date byabout 3 years, but hte trend at the time was that GW each year was making more profit per item not less.)

im not trying to argue a point here. belive what you want, it wont effect me in the slightest. ive seen the real numbers from a few stores concerning GW, and spent some time looking at GW's escalation of prices (no not what you the consumer pay) i know how most companies set mark up and pricings and the therrories behind it from large stores like wallmart, to smaller mom and pop shops.

In the UK you cannot fix prices hence, here at least, many retailers sell below GWs retail prices.

It IS interesting that independent retailers have taken the decision to slash the sell prices of GW merchandise whilst GW continue within their pre-existing corporate price structure.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Scott - The best thing was that, despite being told to do this by the people who actually MAKE THE MODELS the poster instead ranted about how that was such a bad idea as they knew better....

Yes. "I know how resin works so I'm not going to follow your advice, just bitch about you on the internet." If he follows his normal pattern he'll just ignore this now.


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Augustus wrote:I have seen thie first hand in many forgeworld kits I built, mostly for distraut people who came to me for help

I think this is the problem, he likes to be the model-making guru. So if he can't build the kit it must be the manufacturer's fault, not his.


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Hawkins wrote: they make the most cash by internet sales direct to the customers, fallowed then by their own stores, and finally the lowest profit comes in retailers.

That would be the exact same as every company.

Hawkins wrote:i dont know where your getting your info that GW has a low markup but it simply isnt true,

All of the figures regarding their costs and markups are in their accounts which are public.

Every weapon option you ever wanted is already available in this add on set that GW produces.





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As for a simple meltagun conversion. A bolter with the magazine and barrel cut off - replace barrel with suitable sized piece of tubing, add a piece of wire or string of suitable thickness to the underside. The vents on the "melta" barrel could then be painted on unless you wanted to cut them out.

GW makes money off of conversions, and besides, conversions work as a bit of advertisement for the hobby anyway.

Which amazes me still, why GW stopped their bits service?. The amount of bits shops online and on eBay scream as to why GW should never have given this up. I imagine it was a profit analysis moment, but ultimately this kind of after sales service is what retains customers. I miss the old Blue, Red and Green part catalgoues of old.

With regard WYSIWYG, this is why I love Tau. Everything you'll ever need is in the box. Hobby wise I am often making up fictitious models and weapons, rather than struggling to build something that isn't a standard sprue item. I really empathise toward those who persevere with other ranges.

Which ultimately returns to my first point; Why in the blazes do you stop a bits service when your rule system encourages as much? Sure, forcing folks to buy "more" seems obvious, but far far fewer people would be prepared to do so, compared to the majority paying higher than base costs for a single part. Every bits sale on eBay and online stores self evident of this culture.

- Tael.

The bitz services are all about splitting up sprues - GW's bitz service never did that.

The bitz service cost too much to run and operate. It always worked at a loss. In addition the markup in store is low compared to normal retail, and they are banned from cutting prices - CC decreed ages back they cant over compete with other retail, as they have an effective monopoly on the model market. The average profit *per box* is less than 50p after you take operating costs into account.

Augustus had already ignored 2 comments, a 3rd was unlikely. Apparently being an amateur model builder makes you know more than the company that has been working with the stuff for quite a few years....

Shas'El Tael wrote:

GW makes money off of conversions, and besides, conversions work as a bit of advertisement for the hobby anyway.

Which amazes me still, why GW stopped their bits service?. The amount of bits shops online and on eBay scream as to why GW should never have given this up.

Actually, it screams exactly why GW was right to give it up. For all those bit sellers, for every piece they want to sell, the have to buy entire kits to get them. And certain bits, like TH/SS sell very well, but a lot of other things in the kit, not so much. That's why places like Battlewagon bits have their grab bag deals, it's how they get rid of a lot of stuff that doesn't move. IF GW was giving the plastic bits service, then they wouldn't have sold a whole kit, they would've sold just the one part, and they'd still have the rest of the sprue to deal with. That was supposed to be one of the problems with the metal service, that certain bits were very popular, but the rest that came out of that particular mold ended up sitting around taking up space.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The bitz service cost too much to run and operate. It always worked at a loss. In addition the markup in store is low compared to normal retail, and they are banned from cutting prices - CC decreed ages back they cant over compete with other retail, as they have an effective monopoly on the model market. The average profit *per box* is less than 50p after you take operating costs into account.

Augustus had already ignored 2 comments, a 3rd was unlikely. Apparently being an amateur model builder makes you know more than the company that has been working with the stuff for quite a few years....

If they only manage to make 50p per box at the price they sell things, then their operating costs are way too high.

Most likely it is because they run a large number of corporate own stores, that only sell their product line. They also try to sell to independent retailers. So they are exposed heavily to their own products variable demand, AND they are competing against a group of their largest customers. For a company that is just trying to be a model selling company, why do they spend so much money on running stores? They could just franchise or close all those stores, and just focus on making models... Non GW stores aren't that uncommon, and a franchise system could be a good way to expand into markets without GW taking on risk. It just doesn't seem like a good way to run a business in this day and age.

A franchise system would be a good idea I think, but I'm not sure, as a GW Store isn't like a McDonalds, so I doubt the operating mechanics are the same. It could very well be what makes a franchise work for McDonalds is not what would work for a GW.

THe stores are what gets the next generation of modellers playing and buying. That is why they run them.

If they closed the stores all the model companies would suffer.

Franchises are unlikely to want to spend as much time and space as GW do on intro games, club nights, painting and modelling lessons, etc.

Fair points all, with regard the bits service. I grew through the metal bits era, so very much carry that mentality of easily created spare parts. Back in 1999, I had opportunity to visit and browse in the foundry at the newly minted Nottingham HQ, a short while before they closed the bits dept. I had the opportunity to dictate what molds to spin up for parts I wanted at the time (posted to me after). There was very little wastage as most seemed to be the "accessory mold" and the others were the "body" molds. Curious how this mentality of design has not carried over into the much more straight forward digital lay up era.

In a sense, engineering a sprue that is sure to be the popular "bits" sprue to buy separately at a premium for the hobbyist modellers (eg.Vehicle Command Sprue). A lot of boutique/garage model companies do this, in preparation for a demand on the accessories over the core kit and often for modellers interested in using the parts elsewhere.

Well, GW won't change any time soon. This whole bits market has always left me a little curious as to why, even after some solid points by the Dakka folks.

I find it similar to the whole third party accessory industry that pops up around popular gadgets. This lucrative third-party market currently has the gadget producers being even more bullish with official "accessory" items than before, having largely ignored it initially.

- Tael.