So tyranids they have a strange codex I like it, its not that competitive but in the store you dont hv to be that good. Its more how you play with your army than your list in freindlies. But an army with poison weapons really. That have ap 5 the nids didn’t stand a chance.

I played my first game against dark eldar I was running monstrous nids list 2 trygons running , 2 dakka fex(no comment please i know their over priced but i like em) 3 tervigons , deathstar/ and gaunts and hive gaurd.

His was basically proxy old dark eldar models with new rules. Everything in raiders equal warrior to witches. And hellions with special character and bomber thing. i wont go into details but first turn forwards in to cover for him and same for me not much shooting bar a few dark lances couple of wounds on tervigon. His next turn he fething open fired with everything he’s got on raiders. And he had splinter racks so from 1 unit of 10 de warriors that’s 20 shots (I don’t know what special weps and stuff he had) hitting on 3s with reroll wounding on 4s.
And he had 3 units of these. By turn four my monstrous stuff was lying dead with more poison in them than the death guard. Rest of the games he whipped around with his wyches in raiders and 1 unit hellions mopped up my tervigins and gaunts. While the other plagued my deathstar.

In the end he had one objective and i contested 2. So it looks like an average game. No I was dying my only saving grace was death leaper. He leapt around objectives instant killing his units so no feel no pain s6 .

What I am really upset about is not the de because you can’t hate them. It’s the fact that as gw tries to undo the mech game their leaving tyranids with no way to turn. We now have more mandatory units and so many veto units its silly.

As its obvious de player will spring everywhere in store. i have had to change my view

almost mandatory units:
hive guard -still use full and now better at popping raiders meaning them rushing you is very risky
hormagaunts and gaunt - my gaunts have become stronger , only things i could say to my friend in that game was 'ha you wound gaunts on a 4+ lol supergaunts'
tervigon- now i know this goes against my mc rule but spawning super gaunts really off them as he couldn’t keep up killing them
warriors- with a tervigon giving them feel no pain 3 wounds and an armours saves against splinter rifles i could see them being a must
tyrannofex- for blasting the raider from long distance and flaming wyches

almost unusable units:
carnifexes- almost unusable scrap that unusable, with four wounds and only 3+ armour save one round of shooting took it down and they got a pain token
deathstar-not as bad but its reliance on t6 to stop weaker weapons hurting it is gone, de really hurt, the hellions just flew around shooting it with their poison knocking two wounds off a turn, and the rest of the army ignored it,
pyrovore- just no nothings changed
gargoyles and harpy- your just giving them kill points

meh units
trygon- its great distracter but it will die or on raider they will run. mine worked and contested an objective but the other
raveners- come up onslaught into one off their units it dies horribly and then..... so do they, another kill point please

what iv learnt
horde armies will spring up
unit sizes will rise to give no easy kill points or pain tokens
high toughness and mc will stop being used , because its just no fun if your opponent can kill it
static armies I believe will be more common just sit in your deployment zone and blast down those raiders and hellions

sorry for the long thought thread love to hear your thought have any off you found anything out by playing de or you thought on how the game will change

Hi~!

Check this out
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/319613.page

Ok the main problem is, every army has that almost perfect anti army. You know, those armies that just counter them, perfectly? Well your MC running against a faster, poisoned army, that was your counter.

Not really a proxy if they are the genuine old models unless they lack the correct equipment.

Yea I just read the rest of your post (the usefulness of a unit)

Carnifex - Really? You think this is useless? Im a bit nervous when those are around. A fex WILL make any vehicle turn to scrap in 1 turn. Ive had them eat BW like they were trukks against a railgun. Yea, they are 3+ save, so anything ap3 will wound them, but spod them in, use cover, dont send them against a poison weapon.

Gargoyles - I think these are more a play style, but their attacks are poisoned, and so sending them against things like DE, is a serious waste of points. Why? Because they are too weak to use the poison against. But they are jump troops, and cover ALOT of ground. Not to mention they are cheaper then dirt (same points as an Ork boy, but poisoned + jump troops? Yes please) can easily swarm a smaller unit/ tie up a horde unit, and they are awesome at taking out high T units.

The length of the post is not a problem in the slightest. However we do ask users to avoid text speak and abbreviations such as "ur" when writing, and the odd capital letter at the beginning of sentences and the like would go a long way in improving the style and content of your posts. Thanks in advance

carnifex dont turn vehicles to scrap though, its because vehicles just avoid them even podding them means they stand around . And just because its toughtness 6 it means nothing it 4 wounds and a 3+ save for 160 points . Its the definition of a point sink. sorry iv used them forever an still do because i think their awsome but they rarly get points back or work in synergy with the army.but still podding one into the middle of the enemy is fun

Thats where your problem shines. Dont spod 1 in the enemy ranks, spod 3

podding 3 really. I mean 3 different pods coming down at different times and it uses all three heavy support which is just less trygon.

Then use none, or use outflanking, as if you're dropping one you're basically going "Please kill this, I hate it so much!".

Mech Eldar and Mech Dark Eldar (if the new are anything like the old) are basically hard counters to the MC list. Sure you can rip open our flimsy tanks, but can you catch them?

If you really want to go with the list maybe a flying Hive Tyrant. But really that tactica would give way better advice as even the winged Hive Tyrant can be more of a liability against that type of list.

all im trying to say is gw have restricted tyranid to a number of units. As army round poisin ruins mostrus creater like carnifex which only have 4 wounds

Sounds like the OP has a bad case of They Changed It Now It Sucks.

royal house wrote: so tyranids they have a strange codex i like it, its not that competitive

I stopped reading the rest of your post here, since you're woefully mistaken.

Like someone said earlier, every build should have a counterbuild. Well now TMC have a counter that doesn't consist on Massive AT.

GW didn't limit anything. A Mawloc will still eat alot of Dark Eldar. A Fex is still fairly useless. Tervigon still isn't mandatory ( Run two Flyrants. See how the Dark Eldar like that.) Tyrannofex has always been a good choice( just glue a Stranglethorn Cannon on a Carnifex's crotch, It's close enough.) And you forgot Shrikes. Take some of those with a Flyrant. Fun times for all.

i love your idea for tyrannofex i havent used them much but shrikes rule i thought everyone knew that. and their shouldnt be an army to counter another army, plus who do tyranids counter. the guy who wrote the new de codex wanted to write the tyranid one so is punishing us who else is affected by army wide posin rule so much as tyranids.

So 1 unit is useless in a fire fight against DE now it is a completely non-viable choice for any army to take what so ever?

Thats a pretty crap way to look at the use of a unit.
My Broadsides are crap against BA assault squads with near enough army wide 2+ saves and FnP. But that doesnt make me think my Broadsides are useless.

Nurgle stuff, any MC in the Daemons Codex.

I'm loving it witht Tau though. My weapons wound Dark Eldar on 2s, their weapons wound me on 4s.

SaintHazard wrote:Sounds like the OP has a bad case of They Changed It Now It Sucks.

No, I don't think that's what the OP is about. However, he is concerned about a new FoTM codex and probably having to pack up the game until:

A.) Everyone jumps on a new FotM bandwagon
B.) Figures out some way of dealing with the new threat.

To the OP, this is a great time to start trying out a lot of new things in your Army List. Even things you may think are completely ridiculous and silly. Don't listen to the morons either here on Dakka or you FLGS that think every single game has to be a win or you're a loser. Personally I look forward to the excitement of facing those new armies to let me grow as a tactician.

So by your logic, my Chaos is poorly underpowered when I face Imperial Guard and lose? BRILLIANT! I should quit the game for not knowing my place in the world!

Who is saying anything about " every single game has to be a win or you're a loser"?

Most of that "Everyone"( being a gross overstatement) will get tired of Dark Eldar and go back to the Army of their choice after a few weeks/months. There will still be more dark Eldar players than there was before, but not every single army from now until the next codex will be Dark Eldar.

im the only person in my area to play tyranids so i lost for the fist 3 months until i worked out myself how the units work i m just feeling that posins a little unfair on my monstrus critter.and iv played another game with a horde of nids,tervigons and warriors, and won so i know how to beat his de army i miss my carnifexs.

-

I don't think Nid's are bad at all. I have a friend who runs a great Tyrannid list and they are one of my most feared opponents. However, the abundance of a few things have made it harder for them.

1. Poisoned
It's funny because Nid's have an abundance of this as well. I hate that this rule is being given out so much. It just feels wrong that my Daemon Prince of Nurgle fears 10 charging guants much more than a kitted out Space Marine squad. Perhaps the days of high toughness creatures are ending? They have a place, but if you only have one of two they can get rocked pretty hard. Dark Eldar gunboats will really take this to task. 9 splinted rifles and a blaster versus a Hive Tyrant could pop off 3 wounds easy. Not good.

2. FNP
Why does everything get to "feel no pain"? It slows the game down, puts even more of a premium on special weapons, and further invalidates the average homeboy troop choices. Over saturation of this rule; bad. Over saturation of this rule and bargain basement prices; horrible. Plague Marines paid a pretty solid cost for this, but it still seemed a bit low. Nids pay 15 points and a psychic test, Blood Angels pay 20 points on top of a sergeant for FNP and furious charge within 6". Dark Eldar pay next to nothing for this. The escalation makes it tougher for units that have no special weapons (like guants).

3. JoTWW (and "removed from play"/characteristics tests)
Ah Jaws of the Wolf World, what horrors have you brought? Let me clarify right now. I don't think Jaws is unilaterally broken, it is just horribly broken versus certain armies. While things like Eldar and Space Marines shrug as the Wolf player hopes to get lucky, Nid and Necron players cringe as their 200+ point models or strings of Warriors fall into the ground. It is just too good versus certain armies. Drop podding in and insta removing a line of Hive Guard or a Tervigon is just devastating. In general both "characteristics tests" in lieu of of normal wounding and "removed from play" which can circumvent Eternal Warrior are just bad. There is no reason other than "oh yeah, well my guys have a rule that ignores your rule because they are newer".

Nids are still a good list. There are plenty of quality units in that codex. I think people also don't like the fact that it relies on synergy and not "spam best choice on FOC".

Royal House...



And as a polite pro tip, here is a free spell check. Please use it!

http://orangoo.com/spellcheck/

jgrand ur completly right, ,but i played in a ard boyz tournament and all the nids players who ranked spammed 9 hive guard,2-3 trygons and 2-3 tervigons. but yeah vi totally agrre

I wouldn't blame characteristic tests starting with the JotWW. Yes, I realize that was the best example of "broken" removal abilities, but the chaos gift that turns an enemy into a spawn is potentially even more cruel. And it came first-give credit where credit is due. Also, I spammed JotWW once to make a point to my friends-it isn't as good as it seemed. 4 Priests with Jaws...it just isn't quite as good as it sounds. Now, 4 Wolf Lords on thunderwolves...ouch...

@royal house: Please post in complete sentences, pay more attention to correct spelling, and use punctuation. Also, posting in allcaps tends to convey rudeness. Please review the DakkaDakka rules via the link in my signature.

They haven't.

They just made it so you have to have a bit more talent to actually use the list. It's still capable of devastating almost any other list out there. Kinda like Eldar, but instead of being a finesse army it's a synergy army.


Hell, want a far more potent counter?

Guard spamming high AP3 blasts and autocannons against Sisters.

And yet, I've still managed to win through intelligent use of cover and contesting/capping objectives.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Nurgle stuff, any MC in the Daemons Codex.

I'm loving it witht Tau though. My weapons wound Dark Eldar on 2s, their weapons wound me on 4s.

Tyranids have a surprising amount of S5 firepower.

I wouldn't blame characteristic tests starting with the JotWW. Yes, I realize that was the best example of "broken" removal abilities, but the chaos gift that turns an enemy into a spawn is potentially even more cruel. And it came first-give credit where credit is due. Also, I spammed JotWW once to make a point to my friends-it isn't as good as it seemed. 4 Priests with Jaws...it just isn't quite as good as it sounds. Now, 4 Wolf Lords on thunderwolves...ouch...

I'd agree to an extent. I don't see how the Gift of Chaos is worse. The close range required along with it being based on rolling higher than the toughness of the target usually means 6's are needed versus monstrous creatures. Not only that but within 6" you are almost guaranteed to be in range of anti psychic abilities like Shadow of the Warp. Jaws sends the Tervigon to a hole in the ground on a 3+ at 24".

Like I said, Jaws isn't broken across the board. Many armies shrug it off. However, the ones it works well against it really works well against. 4 Priests with Jaws is mediocre against mech Marines and horrible against Eldar and just as mediocre against many others. 4 Priests with Jaws is amazing versus most Tyrannid builds, foot Orks, Necrons, Tau, Nurgle daemons, and foot guard. Not just amazing, pretty much game breaking. Some of these can mech up but others can't.

What I'm saying is that most competitive Nid builds need Tervigons and Hive Guard. Jaws can remove these otherwise hard to take down multi wound T6 monstrous creatures on a 2d6<10 (like a 92% chance) and the opponent rolling a 3+. (66%). Pretty rough. Nothing else can take down those guys as easily. Jaws is incredibly damaging to certain lists, meh against many others.

I could say the same thing about anything..

For example, Vendettas simply suck against horde Orks.

I could say the same thing about anything..

For example, Vendettas simply suck against horde Orks.

Right, but you seem to have missed my main point. In my first post I listed three reasons why I feel that Tyrannids have a hard time as newer stuff comes out. I did preface this with the fact that I personally think they are very competitive.

The post you responded to was my rebuttal to someone who pointed out that Jaws was no big deal. To which I was saying to certain armies it is not only a big deal, but a huge deal. Is it ZOMG brokenz? No. Is it tough to overcome a lynchpin model like a Tervigon getting insta dropped on a ld10 psychic test and a 3+....yes.

Don't be so quick to twist something I'm saying without context please.

Good point JGrand. Actually, I was thinking it was "crueler" in a sense because not only did it remove opponents from play, it also gave you additional models to kill their other models with. And it works a lot better against fast armies than JotWW does. It just seems like more of a slap in the face to say "Oops, now your autarch is a spawn. It charges into your unit of dire avengers and eats them to pieces. Yummy" And of course with Daemons, you need the 6" range, but there is no psychic test-just a straight up shooting attack. And with my daemon princes having BS5, well, I tend to get that attack off pretty often. "You have Eldrad? Now you have Spawn-Eldrad!"

That's just what I meant by being crueler. It isn't better, but it's far more insulting. Sorry that I wasn't clear about it before. Of course, I'm not sure which is funnier-turning a god like the Nightbringer into a gibbering idiot that attacks his own metal goons...or watching him fall into a big hole and disappear because, as a god, he can't climb out.


deleted part for a double post

We should start a collection to buy that kid a shift key. And maybe a spellchecker.

Sure it is.

Don't take a tervigon.

Seriously, why do you think you absolutely MUST HAVE a lot of monstrous creatures in order to have a competitive list? Ripper Swarms can offer 36 spinefist shots which can deep strike for a mere ~150 points and a single slot (about twelve of them will hit. That's enough to put the fear of "I hope my armor save holds" in any unit that isn't a terminator squad). Raveners can deep strike and offer 3 S5 hits apiece (great against side and rear armor of transports). Thropes offer an S10 AP1 lance attack and can also deep strike, and when they aren't lancing they offer a good strength AP3 blast. Spore Mines offer a very cheap amount of large blasts which can devastate most horde armies. Genestealers offer a large amount of cheap, infiltrating rending attacks and are fleet and move through cover. Warriors offer cheap synapse while also still having the ability to do light anti-tank with venom cannons. Ymgarl genestealers offer a high amount of adaptability for just a single unit. The Tyranid Prime is a very effective cheap HQ unit, one of the best cheap HQ units in the game and fully capable of dueling with a kitted out Captain and winning while being cheaper and having a more direct effect on its army (due to Synapse).

You don't need a monstrous creature based army to succeed. Or even a single monstrous creature, if you build your list right.

Tyranids aren't as weak as people scream they are.

Melissia wrote:Tyranids aren't as weak as people scream they are.

I agree.

I like to whine a lot about them, but really the FAQ is the biggesting problem.
(SitW about blots out the astronomicon making warp travel and communication hazardous and unreliable--unless you are in a vehicle. Who is in space while not embarked?!?)
They are at something of a disadvantage in such a mech-friendly game, but it is not all that.

My regular opponents are Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Imperial Guard and I do well enough in that I rarely lose.
We do tie a lot more than seems likely, though.

The tyranid FAQ has 2 of the worst mistakes I can think of, the SiTW rule and the tyranid prime rule. They are both terrible.

Maybe, but I've already seen at least one tourney where those two rules are ignored.

Sure it is.

Don't take a tervigon.

Seriously, why do you think you absolutely MUST HAVE a lot of monstrous creatures in order to have a competitive list? Ripper Swarms can offer 36 spinefist shots which can deep strike for a mere ~150 points and a single slot (about twelve of them will hit. That's enough to put the fear of "I hope my armor save holds" in any unit that isn't a terminator squad). Raveners can deep strike and offer 3 S5 hits apiece (great against side and rear armor of transports). Thropes offer an S10 AP1 lance attack and can also deep strike, and when they aren't lancing they offer a good strength AP3 blast. Spore Mines offer a very cheap amount of large blasts which can devastate most horde armies. Genestealers offer a large amount of cheap, infiltrating rending attacks and are fleet and move through cover. Warriors offer cheap synapse while also still having the ability to do light anti-tank with venom cannons. Ymgarl genestealers offer a high amount of adaptability for just a single unit. The Tyranid Prime is a very effective cheap HQ unit, one of the best cheap HQ units in the game and fully capable of dueling with a kitted out Captain and winning while being cheaper and having a more direct effect on its army (due to Synapse).

You don't need a monstrous creature based army to succeed. Or even a single monstrous creature, if you build your list right.

Tyranids aren't as weak as people scream they are.

I'm assuming you don't play competitive Nids. The Tervigon is a big piece of a successful list. I'm not saying they are a "must have" but they are pretty amazing. Hive Guard are the same way. If you want reliable ranged anti tank they are the only option. Both of these are pretty standard staples in a competitive Tyrannid take all comers list. These are hit very, very hard by jaws and poisoned attacks. That was my point. You can build without them, but I prefer to make take all comers lists. Counter picking is easy. I refuse to make a new list just to play a certain person. I think most people are like this.

Still, JoTWW was only one part of my post. But like I said, go back and read them. You obviously missed the point. I never claimed Nids were weak. In fact, they are one of the most difficult opponents for me. Good Nid lists that employ synergy and tactics are very viable. I was stating the reasons I think they suffer a bit and have been hit by newer codices. I still think they are one of the top armies ATM.

No, I don't think YOU play competitive nids. You play what you THINK is a competitive nid list, but you are relying too much on MCs and not utilizing the full strength of the codex.

Nidzilla is a leftover from 4th edition that still taints the minds of many 'nid players.

No, I don't think YOU play competitive nids. You play waht you THINK is a competitive nid list, but you are relying too much on MCs and not utilizing the full strength of the codex.

I don't, but I play against them plenty. I have seen every unit in the dex used. But, if you look at TAKE ALL COMERS lists, most feature the tervigon and hive guard to some capacity. Tournament Nids do the same. I did earlier say that there isn't really a "spam me" at each FOC so I do admit that there are plenty of builds. You can go without a Tervigon. However, a T6 6 wound scoring troop choice who can crap out other troop choices and cast FNP for 200 points is a good unit. Many would say a very, very good unit. If you run a line of Gargoyles in front of your army and cast Catalyst on them, you gain a durable cover save for a standard forward moving Nid list. You can go without this, but it's one of the most effective tactics I've seen.

As for Hive Guard...good luck taking none of them. Zoenthropes are good in a drop pod as a way to take out high armored units. They usually die after one shooting round because of their close range. Not only that, they are horrible against armies with strong psychic defense. Tyrannofexes have 2 shots of st 10. The problem is that with BS 3 you hit one a turn. If your target is in cover you have a low chance to do anything from the get go. For close to 300 points it doesn't fit in all lists. Hive Guard are almost essential.

I don't know about you, but I play "take all comers" lists. Sure, a Nid player can shelve their standard build every time they play Wolves, but where is the skill in that? Counterpicking is lame. Talk to competitive Nid players and they will agree that the Tervigon and Hive Guard are at the top of the list. Now, am I saying Nids are bad? For the millionth time no. They are facing some adversity based on some of the newer stuff. Jaws is just one aspect of this. They can overcome, it's just not as easy.

I have seen some of your posts on here and have to ask, why are you so bristly and argumentative? If you have actually read my posts instead of jumping on one small part of them you shouldn't have had a problem with what I'm saying. I don't know why some people feel a need to prove themselves constantly and come off so angry. I hope you aren't like that in real life because that would be really sad.

Because it's fun.

If a person wants to play nidzilla, then fine, they can play nidzilla. But nidzilla has always had certain weaknesses. ALWAYS. Neither the space wolf codex, nor fifth edition, has changed this.

I wasn't aware Tervigons were 0-1.

Oh wait, they aren't.

Yeah but i collect nids for the monstrus critters , like you collect Bood Angels for flying terminators. i love the fluff and idea of mc. this isnt me telling you what to do im just saying gw has forsaken tyranid mc by attempting to change dimensions of the game. You can use the stuff i said i wouldn't but it isnt flexible and i love the the way people tell me im a bad player because i dont find them flexible then give me a single really complex way to use it. eg. i was told you can accuratly pod a fex with the lictor homing beacon then onslaught it into a unit.
thats show the length you have to go to ,to use it
1)first i have to get a lictor on the board within assault range of the enemy
2)it has to survive a turn for the ability to work and drop before the fex
3)then i have to have a terrvigon within its power range
4)succsessfully cast onslaught(which is hard with all the phycic hoods)

this seem a little too difficult and uses a huge amount of the army to make the unit viable. i cant find synergy in the units i vetoed

Because it's fun.

If a person wants to play nidzilla, then fine, they can play nidzilla. But nidzilla has always had certain weaknesses. ALWAYS. Neither the space wolf codex, nor fifth edition, has changed this.

Ok, to each their own. Just interesting "netiquette" .

My friend runs a 1500 point list of:

Tyrannid Prime
4-5 Warriors (close combat oriented)
1 Tervigon
12 or so Supergaunts
2x 2-3 Hivegaurd
1 spore pod of Zoenthropes
2 Trygon Primes
12+ Gargoyles

This is off the top of my head. He runs plenty of different lists as he likes to try all of the stuff, but if you pressed him to make one list, this would be what it is based on. The Gargoyle wall which gains FNP from the Tervigon's catalyst gives cover to the rest of the army and mitigates the lack of transports and light saves. The Hive Guard pop light transports so the CC guys have targets. The Primes are great disruption and the Zoey's are there to take out AV 14 or some tough stuff.

This is not "Nidzilla". However, Jaws and poisoned weapons will hurt this list a lot. This build isn't the be all to end all, but it's a good balanced list. Just again pointing out that some of the newer armies have some easy answers to the better Tyrannid stuff. I still think they are very competitive and hate when people say they suck.

I can attest to the strength of the list Jgrand posted. It's a solid synergy, and one of the best single Tyranid builds I've seen. It's also not "Nidzilla" - it relies on much more than that, including a steady stream of scoring troops and sheer numbers.

Sure, the 'Nids codex is not SUPER diverse, and can't compete with the diversity of some 5E codices, which basically allow you 3-4 different serious tourney builds (ie Blood Angels), but if built correctly, 'Nids are nothing to sneeze at.

But thats the point yes they can be competative but only with 1 build. Its not an army in a tourney its a list

Personally, I like to make use of cover myself. Stops your troops getting minced like when they are out in the open.

And come on. They are only Dark Eldar. Give them a stern look and they fall over dead.

I can attest to the strength of the list Jgrand posted. It's a solid synergy, and one of the best single Tyranid builds I've seen. It's also not "Nidzilla" - it relies on much more than that, including a steady stream of scoring troops and sheer numbers.

Sure, the 'Nids codex is not SUPER diverse, and can't compete with the diversity of some 5E codices, which basically allow you 3-4 different serious tourney builds (ie Blood Angels), but if built correctly, 'Nids are nothing to sneeze at.

But thats the point yes they can be competative but only with 1 build. Its not an army in a tourney its a list

I was just posting a competitive build. I believe that there are many ways to run competitive Nids. The strength of the list is that they do have a few solid troop choices. The only "must take" in my opinion are the Hive Guard. The Tervigon comes close though.

There is more than 1 competitive nid build out there. I have seen 304 builds that have worked great and are very competitive. Just depends on how you want to play them.

Nurglitch wrote:We should start a collection to buy that kid a shift key. And maybe a spellchecker.

I already linked him to a free one. All he has to do is cut, copy, and paste. How hard is that?

DarknessEternal wrote:I wasn't aware Tervigons were 0-1.

Oh wait, they aren't.

They're not. But neither are Rune Priests with JotWW.

The biggest kick in the pants is not only do Space Wolves psykers outrange any other psyker (24" JotWW, infinite range lightning, etc), this puts them easily out of the range of SitW, so Nids psychic defense is rendered pretty useless. Coupled with psykers in transports being immune to SitW, Nid psychic defense really is useless.

Don't base your ideas of certain troops off of one battle with what's basically your 'anti army'. Part of playing the game is realizing that you have to put out an army that's going to be a pain in the ass for your competition. What may not work for a battle against DE (for example, Carnifex for this last battle) will be massive against an army like CSM.

Remember that you should learn from your encounters on how to better use your squads and the tactics available to you. However, if you feel like some of the squads aren't to your liking I'm sure someone will take them off your hands lol

Manchu wrote:@royal house: Please post in complete sentences, pay more attention to correct spelling, and use punctuation. Also, posting in allcaps tends to convey rudeness. Please review the DakkaDakka rules via the link in my signature.

You know, I don't mean to be disagreeable, but he's really not that bad. He's being polite, and is generally pretty organized.

I've read much worse on here before.

royal house wrote:

I played my first game against dark eldar I was running monstrous nids list 2 trygons running , 2 dakka fex(no comment please i know their over priced but i like em) 3 tervigons , deathstar/ and gaunts and hive gaurd.

If you like Nidzilla army, cover them with Venomthrope or Spore (Spore is M.C too you know. )
I haven't have the chance to test out my nids against D.E, but from what I know:
1)Their skimmer can cross anything and cause wound
2)Most of their weapon are poisoned.
3)They have a HQ that can instant-kill any I.C and able to regen.

Everytime when I see a transport with loaded troops, my priority is to pop it open ASAP and let my gaunts finish them off in 1 turn, or send the gaunts blocking its way if it's in a tight corner.
One thing about playing nids is target saturation. You want to overwhelm your opponent with as many model as possible.
Another way is to divert your army into 2 category, covering and flanking.
Example: 15 gants with devourer, in weapon range are hiding behing a cover, facing 15 ork boyz, while another 20 gaunts with furious charge and poison attack ready to flank them in next turn. Depend on your opponent, he/she would be need to finish 1 of the army, otherwise it would lose too many boyz and getting the chance to fall back and get sweep.

In your case of versus D.E, I would use Flyrant with H.V.C, old adversary, bonesword and whip to charge in with some gargoyles for cover save.
Just my 2 cents.

Theres good points there but
1) I may just have mean opponent but spores are just kill points, t6 and 3 wounds is just too easy target for bolters ect.
2) The flying attacks are not good , each bike inflicting d3 s4 ap- hits is bad and if you upgrade them to d6 s6 ap- hit you have a really expensive t4 sv5+ unit.
3) regen im not sure but they do have a power weapon which inflicts instant death, which is only strength 3 and no poisin on it.

I did try to shoot down raider but what long range accurate anti-tank do nids have .Plus their vehicles can get inv saves and night fighting rule thing.

On the bright side the wyche special character sucks so bad, yeah she has a bucket load off attacks but she's strength three with no posin or combat drugs. =)

Im going to try running a warrior heavy list again and I will post the results soon.

Far as I know, you can't cover a MC with a Venomthrope.

Its hard with the model, certainly, but its rules work just fine for that purpose.

Read the rules for Venomthropes. The Venomthrope and any friendly unit within 6" can gain a Cv5+ from its Spore Cloud. Additionally the Venomthrope and any friendly unit gain defensive grenades and any unit assaulting them must take a dangerous terrain test.

Nurglitch wrote:Read the rules for Venomthropes. The Venomthrope and any friendly unit within 6" can gain a Cv5+ from its Spore Cloud. Additionally the Venomthrope and any friendly unit gain defensive grenades and any unit assaulting them must take a dangerous terrain test.

Interesting, I was under the impression it functioned like area terrain.

Must be the dangerous terrain test it forces messing with my brain.

Thanks for the clarification.

Defiler wrote:

Manchu wrote:@royal house: Please post in complete sentences, pay more attention to correct spelling, and use punctuation. Also, posting in allcaps tends to convey rudeness. Please review the DakkaDakka rules via the link in my signature.

You know, I don't mean to be disagreeable, but he's really not that bad. He's being polite, and is generally pretty organized.

I've read much worse on here before.

Manchu did say please twice.

When you spot badly formatted posts, please yellow flag them.

Thanks.

I play Tyranids and I doubt they are doomed, but the dark eldar do seem to be suspisciously anti-tyranid, but the playstyle could just be very good against tyranids by coinscidence.

Mr Nobody wrote:I play Tyranids and I doubt they are doomed, but the dark eldar do seem to be suspisciously anti-tyranid, but the playstyle could just be very good against tyranids by coinscidence.

It's because Phil Kelly wanted to write the fifth-edition Nid codex, but they wouldn't let him.

That's why we have things like DE's plethora of poisoned weapons and SW's JotWW - two codices written by Phil - designed to murder Tyranids badly.

What's the other anti-tyranid codex?

I think we should let the codex settle down for a bit.

Typically every new codex produces a few instant surprises just because of the unfamiliarity of its rules.

Then if there are any noticeably strong builds, they get worked out pretty quickly and spammed across the Internet. This may happen after FAQ release too.

In the third phase, people start to invent counters for the strong builds.

I should have thought Tyranids could counter the DE poisoning ability by deploying a lot of cheap and nasty models which would die quickly whether the weapons are poisoned or not.

I haven't seen the DE codex, mind you.

Mr Nobody wrote:What's the other anti-tyranid codex?

I mentioned both in that post.

DE and SW.

I know its not the end of the world it just seems that they have it in for the tyranids. GW said itself it was trying to break up the melta game and mech lists. But there doing it at the cost of tyranids and it annoys me. And i know people will disagree but a melta lance,its just silly.
As for lots of small creatures i tried it in a small game but the amount of attacks wyches put out gaunt save just can't cope.

As an aside, I see you're putting more effort into the structure of your posts. Thank you for that.

Your most recent post was much easier to understand than your first post.

Being upset that Tyranids are 'doomed' now is being a day late and a dollar short to the party. They were badly pummeled with fifth edition vehicles rules, knocked down with their codex and then got their teeth kicked in with the FAQ. Pouring lemon juice on the wounds with a new codex really doesn't do too horribly much more to make things worse.

At this point we've come to accept that whatever brain damaged chimpanzee they've got in charge of the FAQs and prioritizing model line updates has some kind of personal vendetta against the army. The only real point of hope on the horizon is that common sense strikes like a bolt of lightning with sixth edition's vehicle rules.

Aaaaand the SYG hyperbole train arrives, fully laden as ever.

Meanwhile in the real world they actually do quite well. Popular at our recent no-comp 52 player tournie they were vying for top. Theyre just a very, very tricky army to play well, as they rely a lot on synergy. Get that wrong and you're stuffed.

Being upset that Tyranids are 'doomed' now is being a day late and a dollar short to the party. They were badly pummeled with fifth edition vehicles rules, knocked down with their codex and then got their teeth kicked in with the FAQ. Pouring lemon juice on the wounds with a new codex really doesn't do too horribly much more to make things worse.

At this point we've come to accept that whatever brain damaged chimpanzee they've got in charge of the FAQs and prioritizing model line updates has some kind of personal vendetta against the army. The only real point of hope on the horizon is that common sense strikes like a bolt of lightning with sixth edition's vehicle rules.

I'd vehemently disagree. The Doom of Malantai ruling didn't ruin the Nid list. The Doom is still viable and was never more than a niche and disruption unit. Top to bottom the codex has plenty of competitive choices:

HQ- Plenty of great ones, almost nothing bad.

Elites- Mainly used for Hive Guard and to a lesser extent Zoey's because of the ranged anti tank. Still, Ymargl stealers are great units, the Doom is good and generally makes it's points back, and the Deathleaper is kinda fun.

Troops- Incredibly strong. T6, 6 wound 3+ save scoring MC that poops out other troops, can cast FNP, and is 200 points...yes please. The termiguants are amazing now. Stealers are still very good. Warriors are pretty potent, just a bit expensive and need to be screened. Hormiguants are the only meh choice.

Fast Attack- Gargoyles...amazing. Shrikes...not bad. Raveners...amazing. Harpy/parasite...for fun only

Heavy Support- Trygon and Trygon Primes rock. Some swear by the Tyrannofex. The others are for fun only.

Overall seems like a good codex to me. Nothing really broken and it needs lots of synergy to work, but I have seen it work and work well. Players just got turned off when they couldn't spam MC's and walk forward...sorry you have to use something called tactics now. Don't worry, those players can sell their Nid stuff and pick up some Blood Angels on the cheap

On page one of the thread I posted the 3 reasons why I feel like some of the newer stuff hurts Nids more than other armies. That doesn't mean they are "kicked in the teeth" and the the "new dex is trash". Hell, all people ran before was MC spam and that would be hit even harder by Jaws and poisoned attacks. Why is the 5th edition codex worse again?

Most people nowadays seem to run cookie-cutter MC lists. But if you take a look at some of the other options, especially the ones tooled to take down non MEQs, you'll see that Nids are devastatingly powerful. Biovores are the bane of anything that isnt a MEQ and swarming the enemy with Gaunts and Warriors effectively renders their Poison weapons moot (they'd be rolling 4+s or even 3+ to wound those guys anyways). The odd MC here and there could then just be used for anti-vehicle (where a spod fex would really come in handy) or you can just drop a Zoanthrope or Hive Guard to blast those doors open.

Hell even just deep striking raveners hitting at rear armor would be perfectly good anti-tank against most vehicles. Against Guard, perfectly good against side armor, nevermind rear armor.

indeed. The whole Nid Zilla list is grossly overdone. Sure they ignore armor and sure they get 2D6 penetration, but those roles can be fulfilled by other units for cheaper. If you wanna run a themed army, then be willing to accept the faults of said army too. Nids were originally a Swarm army and is designed as such.

As I said, I haven't seen the Deldar dex so I don't know the actual stats.

I assume that, as they are elite, light raiders, their armour is 5+ and their vehicles are mostly AV10, and open top.

This would make them fairly vulnerable to Tyranids, who can muster a surprising amount of S5/Ap5 firepower.

Interesting. Many people yet again overlooking the humble Pyrovore.

Having trouble with Wyches? Let them kick the snot out of a Pyrovore, then liberally douse them in acid.

I see people knocking Harpies. Erm....why? Halves enemy I when it charges. Playing someone with high Initiative? Chuck one of them in with a swarm of poisoned up Hormogaunts, and do unto others before they do unto you.

Stuff the 'tier' system. Stuff people rubbishing whole swathes of units because you might at point conceivably lose said model to a very specific attack only available to a single army, which doesn't feature in every list.... And stuff the talk (not seen it in this thread thankfully) of 'optimal'.

Want to beat your opponents? Practice. Practice practice practice, and just for good measure, practice. With a side order of practice. And as for dessert, a Knickerbockerpractice. Get good with lesser used units. It's a piece of piss.

And why yes, the Pyrovore does indeed take up Elite slots. Oh well. Buddy him up with a crowd of Gaunts (I always field mine with Devourers. So much squelchy dakka!) and the genuinely essential Venomthrope. Gaunts give the enemy something else to worry about (seriously, the amount of shots they get, you better be in assault range, or your troops won't live to regret it!) as well as preventing any inconvenient charges by dross. Venomthrope, well...really....do I really have to explain? Pyrovore also aids in flushing enemies out of cover, and is an absolute laugh riot against enemy elite units, what with their lots of power weapon attacks.

And yes. It does only have two wounds. But as long as it gets nobbled in a single I step, a model can suffer more wounds than it has on it's profile.

I always love these. Whether it is "Running is ruining the game!" "TLoS is destroying 40k!" or "Now there is a counter to my army!", they're always good reads.

Grow up, adapt, and see this as a fun challenge. Could a massed horde do better against poison weapons, as they're already low Toughness, so poison would be near moot?

micahaphone wrote:I always love these. Whether it is "Running is ruining the game!" "TLoS is destroying 40k!" or "Now there is a counter to my army!", they're always good reads.

Grow up, adapt, and see this as a fun challenge. Could a massed horde do better against poison weapons, as they're already low Toughness, so poison would be near moot?

IIRC, Dark Eldar don't have 'proper' poison, as in the gun has no S value, ergo cannot get the tricksy re-roll to wound on matching/lower toughness?

If I am indeed correct, this is something to be exploited by the little guys!

Mr Mystery wrote:Having trouble with Wyches? Let them kick the snot out of a Pyrovore, then liberally douse them in acid.

I see people knocking Harpies. Erm....why? Halves enemy I when it charges. Playing someone with high Initiative? Chuck one of them in with a swarm of poisoned up Hormogaunts, and do unto others before they do unto you.

Stuff the 'tier' system. Stuff people rubbishing whole swathes of units because you might at point conceivably lose said model to a very specific attack only available to a single army, which doesn't feature in every list.... And stuff the talk (not seen it in this thread thankfully) of 'optimal'.

Those two are justified. Pyrovores, yeah, they explode when killed, and if in assault, it's bad news for the opponent. You're still better off with Zoanthropes or Hive Guard, which are effective without relying on the enemy being dumb enough to assault a Pyrovore instead of just shooting it, and hitting nearby Tyranids with acid.

Harpies are big. Their description actually says they are the size of a Trygon. But they fly. Best case scenario, you model it not flying, and it gets about the same amount of cover as Trygons do (ie not much, unless they're behind an Imperial Palace). They're also only T5 with a 4+ save. So instant death from S10 weapons, and very vulnerable to even autocannons. I do like harpies, but you better be good at screening these guys.

Others, yeah, I can't see the complaints. Carnifexes, Hormagaunts, etc, are perfectly usable still. I still honestly think most of the complaints about Tyranids comes from people using 4th edition terrain. Those small wooded areas and low hills aren't going to do much obscuring anymore.

Nurglitch wrote:The Venomthrope and any friendly unit within 6"...

It's like Kustom Force Field, except better and deadlier. When I first play nids, I though Venomthrope is just another failed GW unit, until I realize it has lash whip (base-to-base enemy strike at last), defensive grenade (dangerous terrain test), toughness test at the end of close combat (toxic miasma), 5+ cover save on ANY friendly unit . Yeah it's 5+ but every bits help. . Plus they can deep strike with spore. Ooohh.

Another thought, lotsa plp complain about the useless of Pyrovore, for me, combine with venomthrope or let it go through a tunnel (made by nids favorite heavy duty support Trygon) near enemy cover and roast them to cripsy bits. Mm...roasted ork boyz....

See? Even a marine player who has only occasionally faced nids sees a solution! Go back to basics, what the tyranids were originally meant to be like! Hordes of unending infantry, too many to count, and far too many to count.


Prediction: Soon we will see a similar thread complaining about how GW has ruined the game by making templates so common.

I hear the damn Tau have a 72 inch range Template that ID Dark Eldar and takes away our armor save. We need to make a Topic about how Tau are ruining the game!

royal house wrote:I know its not the end of the world it just seems that they have it in for the tyranids. GW said itself it was trying to break up the melta game and mech lists. But there doing it at the cost of tyranids and it annoys me. And i know people will disagree but a melta lance,its just silly.
As for lots of small creatures i tried it in a small game but the amount of attacks wyches put out gaunt save just can't cope.

DE are not going to break mech lists. The only vehicles that really care about lance are AV14(and AV13 to a lesser extent) and of those only the LRs and Battlewagons(which are really easy to get side shots on) are transports.

Conventional transports(Rhino, Razorback, Chimera) are not affected by the lance rule, so a darklance is just another S8 shot, and as someone on YTTH said a little while back, "If massed S8 fire was going to break mech, spammed ML Long Fangs would have done it when the SW codex was released."

It's interesting how people are despairing so much over a codex that isn't even on the shelves yet as if it were the end of the world. I must admit your suffering is ever so delicious, please do keep it up. I'm going to grab my Animus Vitae.

Mr Gold wrote:Another thought, lotsa plp complain about the useless of Pyrovore, for me, combine with venomthrope or let it go through a tunnel (made by nids favorite heavy duty support Trygon) near enemy cover and roast them to cripsy bits. Mm...roasted ork boyz....

Combined with a Venomthrope, it'll probably still die to ranged HW fire quickly and then explode, damaging nearby units. A 5+ cover save is good, but not that good. As for putting it in a Trygon tunnel, can Pyrovores even deep strike? They need to be able to deep strike before they can use that tunnel. Even then, it's not uncommon for either the Pyrovores to show up before, or during, the turn the Trygon turns up, meaning they won't get to use the tunnel (you can only use the tunnel the turn after the Trygon arrives).

micahaphone wrote:See? Even a marine player who has only occasionally faced nids sees a solution! Go back to basics, what the tyranids were originally meant to be like! Hordes of unending infantry, too many to count, and far too many to count.

True. And I always preferred this kind of Tyranid army. Small Nids, supported by Warriors, supported by other Nids (like Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, etc), with big Nids like Carnifexes and trygons less common, and providing hard hitting attacks. The core of the army should be Gaunts and Warriors.

But, I would have preferred it if they still had the Without Number upgrade, rather than relying on Tervigons. This would have also helped out with the whole Trygon and tunneling swarm idea - Trygons pop up, and any swarms you replace with Without Number can arrive from the Trygon tunnel. So many missed opportunities in the book.

This is a classic "i got schooled so i'll bitch about it online" thread, Dark Eldar haven't even come out yet and people are already complaining.

I <3 the intarnets

seriously this is very premature. Give the DE dex some time. People will learn how to best play against it and exploit its weaknesses.

Meh, It's why id bring a second army whenever i bring my nids to a flgs andif i see DE i dont bother playin with my nids .... if the de player is half smart you just met your complete hard counter, not even a chance honestly with everything poisoned.

Poison honestly doesn't scare me much as a nid player. The average poison is 4+, so instead of wounding on 6 they'll wound on 4. OK a few more wounds on your monstrous creatures. Those weapons either have low AP or none generally so you still get your armor saves all over the place. I'll take that deal over las/plas/melta's 'OK passed BS test, now I wound on 2+ and you get nothing else afterwards'.

-Loki- wrote:
can Pyrovores even deep strike? They need to be able to deep strike before they can use that tunnel.

Any infantry units can use the tunnel. If you don't like 5+ cover save, stick them behind some M.C and get 4+ instead.
The key is synergy. Let your troops shoot on the frontline while your Trygon causing havoc behind enemy line. Overwhelm him with every models you have.

-Loki- wrote:The core of the army should be Gaunts and Warriors.

Both of those 2 are troop-choice, which form the basis of your army.

Im sure throwing a Doom of Malan'tai wouldnt hurt.

Plus aren't Tyranids like the hard counter to Tau?

Not really. I have more trouble beating Blood Angels with my Tau then beating Nids.

Mr Gold wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
can Pyrovores even deep strike? They need to be able to deep strike before they can use that tunnel.

Any infantry units can use the tunnel. If you don't like 5+ cover save, stick them behind some M.C and get 4+ instead.
The key is synergy. Let your troops shoot on the frontline while your Trygon causing havoc behind enemy line. Overwhelm him with every models you have.

Throwing around the phrase 'synergy' as some kind of panacea is wildly inappropriate for the Pyrovore. He sucks. Period. Relying on the Trygon's tunnel is a horrible idea for anything, ever, because of how flawed the rule is. Further relying on that as the only means of making a Pyrovore *cough* useful, is throwing bad money after worse. There is absolutely no redeeming value, ever, for the Pyrovore. He does nothing well that somebody else can't do better, with three exeptions; cost a lot of points, take one of your highly limited elite slots and be a larger danger to you than your opponent.

i only like 'Nids because it's fun to pop there heads with a well placed hellfire round

MiloticMaster wrote:i only like 'Nids because it's fun to pop there heads with a well placed hellfire round

Most eloquently stated!

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Not really. I have more trouble beating Blood Angels with my Tau then beating Nids.

I was thinking theory. Tyranids dont give me too much trouble but it just makes me think -I think chaos or SW will be my big problem.
Units that are amazing in CC, can just vanish out of sight till they get close, can have swarms appear just d6" beside you.
Id say against an army terrified of combat it would be our theoretical counter and someone who doesnt know much about them might even succumb to them easily thinking they are OP. Like what a lot of Tyranid players will be doing for DE at the moment.

I never said i've played one game and assumed tyranids suck now all im stating is that recent GW releases seem suspiciously anti-tyranid.
Oh and no !the pyrovoe sucks lets not get into that. For feths sake its a space marine scout with heavy flamer, which costs 4times as much .

i mean go to my other post in recent disscusion(called dark eldar weapons) they just fell a little too powerful.

royal house wrote:I never said i've played one game and assumed tyranids suck now all im stating is that recent GW releases seem suspiciously anti-tyranid.
Oh and no !the pyrovoe sucks lets not get into that. For feths skae its a space marine scout with heavy flamer, which costs 4times as much .

i mean go to my other post in recent disscusion(called dark eldar weapons) they just fell a little too powerful.

But, but, he comes with a built in power weapon equivalent! That has to mean something righ- oh wait initiative 1, 1 attack. Wait I got it, if he has instinctive behavior he can still fire his weapon! Yeah that's totally a redeeming valu- oh wait he's IB feed so he'll charge into close combat. Welp.

royal house wrote:i mean go to my other post in recent disscusion(called dark eldar weapons) they just fell a little too powerful.

So you decide to try and prove your point by making the same complain under a different name?

Wait like a month for everyone else to work out how to beat them then Copy/paste like everyone else.

I'm thinking nine Broadsides.

The main point of the thread was to discuss how the game will change e.g. Will unit sizes increases to stop easy pain tokens ect.

It was not me saying that their broken or anything.I was using my battle as an example to how the tyranid builds will change while de are the fotm codex.

What other codex changes do you think you'lll seee to combat them?

Meh, Dark Eldar don't scare me. Hive Gaurd can trash any of their vehicles, deathspitters make a mess of Raiders, and anything S4 can take a shot at immobilized results.

Raiders are armour eleven so no you s4 weapons can't touch it. and hive guard range is 24'' they can move further than that in one turn so buy the time your in range the raiders will have done their job.

Av 11 on all four sides?

No I thought its profile was 11 11 10.
Although if its 11 10 10 that will be better for tyranids, and probably fairer.

Heh, Dark Eldar fear my Harpies and their delightful twin-linked heavy Venom Cannons. It's like that particular setup was designed especially to decimate the large, open-topped and lightly armoured Dark Eldar transports.

Brainleech Devourers are also an excellent counter-measure, though of course their short range is something of an issue (unless you Onslaught the MC).

Then of course, there are the usual Hive Guard and Zoanthrope ranged attacks, both as fine as ever.



As usual with the Tyranids, you need to combine your units to break the Dark Eldar. In this instance, you need to shoot down their transports, and then jump on the passengers with whatever you have to hand (Hormagaunts, Raveners), or simply blow them away with more firepower (Cluster Spines, Biovores etc etc).

Dark Eldar are fearsome, but give them a good, hard smack and they fold.

Wait since when do DE have to fear having their transports all shot down? I though that was to be expected?