*Warming up for rant* Morning Dakka,

I have been defending White Dwarf for ages when people have said that it wasn't any good and the old style was much better however this month's detritus has gone too far! Before I go off on one I will say that I think the 'eavy Metal Tutorials have been and are fantastic and it is good that when a new unit/army comes out they focus on that so that people get immediate help with the painting. I also like the articles that discuss the new armybook/codex and give a brief synopsis of how the army will work on the table and a pen picture of their fluff.

Now onto the bits I don't like:

1) THE BATTLE REPORT: First off I realise that it would not be a good thing if the new army gets tabled but this month has gone too far. First of all if Andrew Kendrick is meant to be such a good Imperial Guard General then why did he use such a crappy list - 3 infantry platoons with very little upgrades on the command squads, no chimeras and only two infantry squads in each. I have only been playing guard for about six months but I have won three tournaments with them and have never lost a game (this is not trying to sound arrogant just to put in place the fact I know how to win with guard). There was very little synergy in his list and I am pretty sure that no one has ever used that list and won a game so is it any surprise he got smashed. Why can't these supposedly awesome generals ever pick competitive lists? Ok I don't want to see tournament winning lists every month but I would like to se some variety between fluffy lists, competitive list and down right evil lists but this should be balanced by both players picking the same kind of list. Apart from when LOTR is the featured report I have never stopped reading the battle report but this month was just ridiculous. I think I have said enough about the Battle Report now if anyone wants to pick up on it I can moan some more later.

2)THE CONSTANT ADVERTISING: Fine White Dwarf is the main form of hard copy advertising that GW has but why do it to death some times GW marketing department less is more: when you send me an email with a couple of photos of a new range you capture my interest and actually make me want to go to a store and check them out 'in the flesh' which makes me more likely to buy something. When you show me every little thing in minute detail and I have no desire to collect the army my interest is satiated and I no longer want to go and look at the stuff I'll wait till I play against it.

3) JJ - sometimes he is good this month I get the feeling he had a couple of weeks off with his family and wrote Standard Bearer the night before the deadline. What an awful topic I am sure most people are able to collect an army and think through everything he said with a minimum of effort. If this is all advice for kids produce another magazine called Pink Fluffy Dwarf.

Anyway I am sure you are bored of reading so I'll open the floor for debate.

Thoughts?

It just sounds like more of the same for me...

I miss Jake Thornton, Nigel Stillman, Paul Sawyer, Tuomas Pirinen, Adrian Wood...

I haven't bought a white dwarf in years and neither has anyone I know of in my gaming circle. That's pretty bad for a magazine who's entire content is targeted for you.

Haha! You bought a White Dwarf.

You deserve everything you get, really.

Thanks for that truly helpful comment that furthers debate and makes my time typing worthwhile.

You're welcome

Hey, I still buy it every month, it's the only drug I use. Most of the issues in the last years have been rather useless for me. I think I've only enjoyed the painting articles.

Yeah i've noticed the battle reports are slightly (massively) rigged. They play several battles and choose the one they think reflects the new army best i suppose i find them enjoyable.

Erasoketa wrote:You're welcome

Hey, I still buy it every month, it's the only drug I use. Most of the issues in the last years have been rather useless for me. I think I've only enjoyed the painting articles.

Sorry dude I meant H.B.M.C his comment really wasn't helpful

I only buy it if the painting articles are any use to me, if this one is all Dark Eldar I'll be getting it...

Mick

It is all Dark Eldar in the painting articles and it covers most of the models released this month.

I understand where you are coming from but given that you appear to be a fairly long time WD reader, I am surprised that this has got to the point of annoyance. It has always been thus with WD. I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times that the new release army has lost a battle report (and most of the time when they fail to win, the game ends in a draw rather than a loss). This is standard fare for WD; as integral to the magazine as the advertising. The battle report is nothing more than an advert in itself.

Take the mag for what it is - a way to sell more minis. Glean from it what you will (some articles are good despite what this board would have you believe) and take it with a pinch of salt. Personally, I buy WD but then again, I am under no illusions as to what I receive. Its expensive, but then again, so is everything GW, and it provides me with enough diversion and amusement to justify the cost. When it stops doing that, I will stop buying it.

I agree I have always known that the battle reports are biased to the new army but this month seemed to go too far for the reasons I originally posted I also remember when a new army wasn't released every month and you used to get battle reports that where fair, unbiased and well written. Sigh *drifts off into dreamy revery of a time when Andy Chambers was at the heart of all that was good about GW*

I guess what you really lament is the subtle drift that WD has undergone from a hobby magazine that promoted GW stuff to a full blown catalogue that it is now. This is in part due to editorial changes, staff changes and management impositions.

I agree, I would love to see GW go back to its roots a little more but I cant see it happening. What I can see is readership tailing off and the mag being binned, however.

filbert wrote:I guess what you really lament is the subtle drift that WD has undergone from a hobby magazine that promoted GW stuff to a full blown catalogue that it is now. This is in part due to editorial changes, staff changes and management impositions.

I agree, I would love to see GW go back to its roots a little more but I cant see it happening. What I can see is readership tailing off and the mag being binned, however.

Absolutely this

I guess in a wider sense, WD is a microcosm of the changes that GW itself has undergone. What a shame it is when the bean counters get hold of the reins - its accountants that steer GW rather than hobbyists/fans/aficionados.

Remember GW's rule about having fun.

Battle reports in WD have always featured builds that are not competitive. Even when they get shop staff or tourney winners involved etc they always change their lists to make them a bit of everything.

'My list usually features lots of win x but seeing as I am in WD this month Ill use lots of crappy y and zees'

Is the formulaic comment.

The trouble is IMO the best way for GW to increase its sales is to listen to the people that have been in the hobby for a long time and keep things they really like whilst targeting the new market in different ways. Our hobby has a finite market share of the population (there are only so many geeks per capita) therefore I believe they should work as hard at retaining their customer base as they do attracting the kids to the hobby. Perhaps at 26 I am too much of an old fart for GW as they have had my business for the last 18 years

Ed_Bodger wrote:The trouble is IMO the best way for GW to increase its sales is to listen to the people that have been in the hobby for a long time and keep things they really like whilst targeting the new market in different ways. Our hobby has a finite market share of the population (there are only so many geeks per capita) therefore I believe they should work as hard at retaining their customer base as they do attracting the kids to the hobby. Perhaps at 26 I am too much of an old fart for GW as they have had my business for the last 18 years

Considering the customer base GW is most interested in, 26 is absolutely ancient.

Ed_Bodger wrote:The trouble is IMO the best way for GW to increase its sales is to listen to the people that have been in the hobby for a long time and keep things they really like whilst targeting the new market in different ways. Our hobby has a finite market share of the population (there are only so many geeks per capita) therefore I believe they should work as hard at retaining their customer base as they do attracting the kids to the hobby. Perhaps at 26 I am too much of an old fart for GW as they have had my business for the last 18 years

Its forever the complaint of the veterans on this board; GW ignore the veterans and it will cost them - that's the battle cry of the jilted generation, at least. So far, it hasn't seemed to have made a difference, GW still
seems to be able to attract new blood so I suppose they are doing OK. Doesn't mean I have to like it; I hate that they abandoned the specialist games and hung others out to dry (like 2nd Epic and Blood Bowl). But they still continue to post a profit....

The problem is that everyone here has an opinion on how we think GW should be run and we all think (well most of us) that they should pay more heed to their customers, fans and veterans but the truth is, GW is run by a board and CEO who have no interest in games or gamers and are all about the bottom line. The whole business model is set up to suck a newbie in, get them to drop £100 or so on new stuff and then they couldn't care less if they stay or go; its on to the next one. There doesn't seem to be much incentive to stick around with GW once you have bought in; this is demonstrated by the fact that most of us probably use ebay, swap shops and FLGS to buy stuff - as far as GW is concerned, we don't really matter. But it seems to work for them so who am I to criticise? I don't have a degree in Business Studies and corporate management so my opinion is fairly worthless.

I think I've purchased (with my own hard-earned) three issues in the last two years of WD.

It is not the mag it once was, this is true. These days, I'd much rather spend the same money on Military modeller or wargames Illustrated.

The same kind of painting articles (one of the MMs even had an article on sculpting hair onto 1/35 models - not too different from doing it to GWs Hydrocephalic 28mm, really) as well as "how to's" on weathering powders (the newest "new" thing that gaming modellers have latched onto (SF modellers were doing it to models in the 80s.

I wish I hadn't been bought a two year subscription last Christmas as I would be quite happy to never buy another copy of White Dwarf, I can pretty much get all the advertising spiel I can take from the GW website.

I also thought the Guard army selection was somewhat advantageous for the DE. In GW's slight defense i think this situation was aggravated somewhat by the limited model collection they have painted up and themed as Catachans.

Did make the FnP and pain counters look useful though eh ?

The report looked great however, and I was pleased to see the (slightly) expanded tactical decisions in a couple of parts -- like the assault on the tank for extra movement and the use of the jetbikes.

And those WFB scenery pieces are great.

I don't play it, but if I did the rules for the new LOTR models is a handy addition.

..quite intrigued by the inside back page too...

I'm eager to grab November's issue. The first one in eons speaking of a army I actually use.

reds8n wrote:..quite intrigued by the inside back page too...

Ooh, please share your wisdom

Wow, it's only 10:30 in the morning and I'm already asking satan for favours

S_P

filbert wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:The trouble is IMO the best way for GW to increase its sales is to listen to the people that have been in the hobby for a long time and keep things they really like whilst targeting the new market in different ways. Our hobby has a finite market share of the population (there are only so many geeks per capita) therefore I believe they should work as hard at retaining their customer base as they do attracting the kids to the hobby. Perhaps at 26 I am too much of an old fart for GW as they have had my business for the last 18 years

Its forever the complaint of the veterans on this board; GW ignore the veterans and it will cost them - that's the battle cry of the jilted generation, at least. So far, it hasn't seemed to have made a difference, GW still
seems to be able to attract new blood so I suppose they are doing OK. Doesn't mean I have to like it; I hate that they abandoned the specialist games and hung others out to dry (like 2nd Epic and Blood Bowl). But they still continue to post a profit....

The problem is that everyone here has an opinion on how we think GW should be run and we all think (well most of us) that they should pay more heed to their customers, fans and veterans but the truth is, GW is run by a board and CEO who have no interest in games or gamers and are all about the bottom line. The whole business model is set up to suck a newbie in, get them to drop £100 or so on new stuff and then they couldn't care less if they stay or go; its on to the next one. There doesn't seem to be much incentive to stick around with GW once you have bought in; this is demonstrated by the fact that most of us probably use ebay, swap shops and FLGS to buy stuff - as far as GW is concerned, we don't really matter. But it seems to work for them so who am I to criticise? I don't have a degree in Business Studies and corporate management so my opinion is fairly worthless.

Nuff said!

I got a subscription (sadly) right after the spearhead issue. Since then, i've gotten 5 issues, only 1 of which had any 40K content, sorta (daemons) and 0% of it was relevant to any of the armies I play. I don't remember the exact numbers, but pretty close to that.

I would really really like to know whether WD is self-sustaining on the backs of our subscription payments or whether it is subsidised by GW.

If the magazine is subsidised by the rest of GW (which I suspect, tbh), then the fact it is blatantly an advertising rag is pretty much forgiveable. Still though, there should be a clear separation between content and advertising, which there is not.

If GW does not subsidise the magazine and the costs of producing it are entirely borne by the readers, then it is unacceptable that there is advertising of any kind, especially the insidious advertising-as-content we get now.

What I would like to see is WD as a stand-alone, succeed-or-fail on its own merits venture. This would lead to a focus on producing articles people want, instead of articles that advertise whilst providing just enough content to justify calling it a magazine rather than a catalogue.

(And I say all of those things as someone who is fortunate enough to be afford a subscription despite not thinking the magazine is all that great.)

I sometimes wonder if WD has changed, or if it's the game and the hobbyists
who have changed.

Ed_Bodger wrote:Thanks for that truly helpful comment that furthers debate and makes my time typing worthwhile.

Sorry, but you have no excuse (or might not).

Buying a WD and complaining about the content is like walking into a tattoo parlour, asking for a tattoo and then complaining afterwards that you got a tattoo. You know what WD is*, it's been this way for years and years and years, so you got exactly what you paid for - a thick flashy advertising booklet masquerading as a hobby magazine.


* And if you didn't know what WD was like, then consider this a learning experience.

malfred wrote:I sometimes wonder if WD has changed, or if it's the game and the hobbyists
who have changed.

I dunno.

You tell me.

That's a good point.


I know, up to ..ooh...crikey .. over five years ago now where does the time go.. it was definately running successfully on its own. Not sure now though.

malfred wrote:I sometimes wonder if WD has changed, or if it's the game and the hobbyists
who have changed.

I would like to say it is the gamers, however as I haven't bought a copy since March 2006, and that was the first one since about 1989, I find it hard to really tell how much the content has changed.

I mean I gave it up around 1990 because it had by then already become a catalogue for the latest 40K and WHFB releases, plus the occasional useful article such as upgrades for Space Hulk.

I know they had features like Chapter Approved during the 90s, which I missed out on. Even that sort of useful, bonus content seems to have been dropped by the early 00s. I don't think a lot has changed in the past five or six years.

It isn't aimed at veteran gamers, it's aimed at newcomers, so naturally as you get experience in wargaming you begin to find WD repetitive and unsatisfying.

Who constitutes the main part of the market for WD?
There may be a case for suggesting that it gets picked up by new hobbyists for a while, who then fall by the wayside and drop it.
Or if they continue the hobby, they no longer feel a need for the mag.

Either way it probably doesn't matter too much, as the contant stream of freshers take up the slack.

do what i did stop getting white dwarf and subscribe to war games illustrated . that mag is just crammed with wargaming goodness !

On the plus side, H.B.M.C. , I finally got the Corey Hart / Andy Chambers reference you made in your retro review!

For me having been away from the hobby for 7 or 8 years, until I started up again 12 months ago, White Dwarf while yes being an advertising platform for the newest products has been very useful to me helping me get familiar with what's new, what's changed, what's still the same, and what's coming up in the next few months. Essentially it helped ease me back into the hobby with out having to go into my local workshop and face the sales pitches for things I didn't want or need. 12months down the line I still read it every month and even have a subscription simply because it was cheaper then buying a copy in store each month when it stops being of any use to me I'll cancel my subscription simple as that.

I do miss the writing of some of the old white dwarf staff from years gone by but I don't feel the magazine as a whole is any worse then it was in the past the articles have changed the formats a little different but over all your getting the same information as you ever have. That said the one article I rarely read is standard bearer, I don't dislike Jervis in fact he's responsible for a lot of things I love about the hobby both GW and non GW but his articles always seam a bit boring if any thing and I have to agree with the comment earlier that this months just felt a little thrown together at the last minute for me a bit like he was really stretching for ideas about what to write.

Back in the good old day’s I used to hold onto my copies of White Dwarf until, the wife finally lost her cool with clutter in the study. At this point I cut out the articles I found interesting and file them away in a series of folders. The remainder was generally the cover and adverts, which was thrown out.

I still get the White Dwarf, god knows why, though now I don’t get every issue.
and I still hold on to them, but now when forced to reduced the clutter in the study I desperately scan through each issue looking for articles to keep, rarely finding anything worth holding onto. So now it one or two rare articles that are kept and the bulk of the mag goes straight into the bin.

I generally come away despondent with the whole mag, making the general comment that it just a load of rubbish, which considered my recycle bin is full of the said mag seems a justifiable comment.

Still I keep getting it in the hope that just maybe the good old days will return

I still buy it and yes, only the odd article here or there is any good.

I really miss the days when they did scratch built terrain articles. Anybody remember the ruined temple made out of plaster wedding cake pillars? Or the amazing inn with a courtyard and opening gates.

I also liked seeing articles about other people's armies as I found them more inspiring than the Eavy Metal painted standard which I will never be able to achieve.

I'll be buying november due to the DE painting stuff, but that's all.

Flashman wrote:I still buy it and yes, only the odd article here or there is any good.

I really miss the days when they did scratch built terrain articles. Anybody remember the ruined temple made out of plaster wedding cake pillars? Or the amazing inn with a courtyard and opening gates.

Maisontaal's Abbey? That arcticle was great, including the rules for a 3 armies battle too. Hmm... Bretonia vs Undead vs Skaven IIRC.

Erasoketa wrote:

Flashman wrote:I still buy it and yes, only the odd article here or there is any good.

I really miss the days when they did scratch built terrain articles. Anybody remember the ruined temple made out of plaster wedding cake pillars? Or the amazing inn with a courtyard and opening gates.

Maisontaal's Abbey? That arcticle was great, including the rules for a 3 armies battle too. Hmm... Bretonia vs Undead vs Skaven IIRC.

I remember that too and it was indeed excellent.

I don't like to complain. So it's a shame that I am. I'm pretty sure I'm like Harms66 in this. I used to get every issue and read it again and again until it looked like an old rag. That was when I used to play (roughly the lifespan of 3rd Ed and the beginning of 4th). Looking back, it was already going downhill by then, and probably contributed to me ditching the hobby.

When I got back into 40k last year I bought a white dwarf. As well as the rip-off price it was thinner than my old issues, the battle report seemed pretty farsicle, the whole thing seemed like a big advert (not a clever advert like it used to be, a big blatant advert), and apart from the odd article about a tornament or painting/modelling it was generally disappointing. I don't buy it much anymore (only if something I'm really into is released) since I can generally get most of the content from skim-reading it on the shelf in Smith's!

There was a battle report I enjoyed fairy recently however- I don't have the issue, but it was an IG vs orks kill-team style thingy that ended with a Stompa trashing the board.

And the old WD wasn't all good, either. Although Chapter Approved was generally an awesome read it did contribute towards convoluting 3rd Ed with unbalanced random updates, strange army lists and the like.

In danger of sounding like an old geezer... Paul Sawyer (Fat Bloke) and his White Scars, Adrian Wood and his orks, Nick Davis and his Imperial Guard, all the old lot... those were the days!

Pick up a copy of No Quarter and a copy of WD and compare. I would argue that the gamer has not changed.

WD its to expensive for its content, I also remember the old days were there was little to no information about the hobby and WD was usefull. Internet changed that.
I'm still the kind of guy that prefers to take a mag rather than a laptop to the toilet so I ask this... what Hobby orientated mag do you guys read and think that its worthy of its price tag?

Im curious about the PP mag does it have nice painting articles? I dearly miss like the bread on my table the deceased cry havok... some years later and I still have not found a substitute ( anyone has sugestions?)

I only buy white dwarf if there is something I want in it...like spearhead. And even then I'll wait untill its 2-3 months old and snag it off the discount shelf.

MattRendar wrote:do what i did stop getting white dwarf and subscribe to war games illustrated . that mag is just crammed with wargaming goodness !

QFT

Why cry when you can put that 10 bucks to good use on something worth it. Aside from the content on the GW site, you really don't need to waste the money on Pravda propaganda.

A better use for that money is to just light it on fire, then at least you can say you'd get a neat light show.

I've heard very good things about "Game Forces" magazine, I've only seen a few previews currently, but some of the modelling stuff is supposed to be absurdly good.

Well, I got around the problem of the magazine's overpricing by simply borrowing copies occasionally from a better-off friend. Yay for friends!

I've recently been going through all my old White Dwarfs and I can say the magazine has changed a hell of a lot in some aspects whilst the advertising etc...has remained pretty much the same.

The one thing that has changed a lot in WD (and other magazines in general - even Empire) is the amount of writing. You don't get enough writing anymore, which is why many liken it to a catalogue - which has certainly always been a part of it and you'd expect it to be. I only buy WD now if it has a decent painting article in it (which is pretty much every month - the ). The older WD's (170-300ish) had many rules contained within them and you don't see that anymore. I liked the older ones as they released things off key and included rules for them, with full background, sometimes even tactics, within the one article - of course the specialist games systems were more 'used' then so they had a great variety within them as well. I feel now WD has become very formulaic - you get the new release, design notes, painting article and battle report then maybe a few minor things for the systems where the main release isn't focused on - if any at all - and that's it.

It's a shame as I feel a lot of the 'free' spirit has been lost but that's just how it is

I assume only newbies buy the magazine because there's nothing in it for the long term hobbyist. It's just an advertising piece you are expected to pay for. And it is expensive even before you consider the number of pages devoted to advertising their own stuff. There are cheaper magazines out there full of modelling articles and reviews and readers models, and coverage of events etc.

What gets me is the way that the articles and gaming reports are just adverts for the latest army and game. And they then follow the article with a few actual adverts, so if they just did a game with Space Marines, there would be a few pages advertising the 40K game and those very Space Marines. The article itself was a thinly disguised advert, but they then follow it up with an actual advert, perhaps they think their readers just can't take a clue, or perhaps they just can't think of something to fill the pages with.

The only way I get to see miniatures other than those painted by the 'eavy metal team is online, WD doesn't even feature readers armies, or those done by staff any more. People used to use their own home painted armies for battle reports making it different each time, though the 'army of the month' was often studio painted. I flick through it now, and the "'eavy metal showcase' often uses the same photographs as the catalogue but magnified. How lazy, simply filling out a few pages and leaving a lot of white space.

It's desperately sad that a game as big as Warhammer with its huge following has so little real hobby support. WD used to be billed as a "gaming supplement", and it was. I don't want to be one of these people trying to boast how long they have been a gamer by declaring WD wasn't worth a damn after issue #100 but it really has lost all it's content, but the content was not bad at all for longer that some will claim, well into the #200s. You used to get army lists and rules in the magazine for new vehicles in 40K, you had scale plans to build your own vehicles; the first Baneblades were all made from plans issued in WD and plans were issued for several Ork vehicles and conversions for Space Marine vehicles. Whole army lists; the Squats list first appeared in WD, a list for Norse in fantasy. Even in later years they did this, the first Tomb Kings list was published for 5th ed fantasy around issue #230 and you'd get articles to support games like Gorkamorka for new gubbins and random events lists and the occasional new scenario. Mordenheim was first released in the pages of White Dwarf around this time too, issues #220-230 or thereabouts, at first some simple rules but then they added many more for equipment lists, scenarios, different warbands and there were articles on kitbashing your own gangs. Collected together the rules were almost as complete as something like Necromunda, and clearly they thought so to because Mordenhiem received a full commercial release. Space Hulk was supported with a health stream of rule for new weapons, new rules, new missions, new shapes of floor tiles which you could cut out or photocopy and use in your game, some essential new rules like weapons and the like appeared in the Deathwing/Genestealer expansions, but odder ones like using Traitor Terminators or standard beaky marines were only in White Dwarf. Thus they were supplemental to add extra spice, not essential.

It was a gaming supplement because you had to buy the magazine to get some of the more obscure rules, the latest releases for many games were issued through the magazine especially for things like Man o' War and others. I would stress that you didn't have to miss out though, they bundled these together to make things like the Chapter Approved and Best of White Dwarf books in later years that meant you could pick up the collected rules for things or whole army lists like Chaos Dwarves. Chaos Dwarves never had a true Army Book, they had a book that collected White Dwarf articles. I bet they couldn't even put together a book of supplemental rules today, it would just involve reprinting their battle reports and painting articles and padded out with adverts.

There were card pieces galore for at least a year or two, when Gorkamorka was released you got a huge watchtower to build, when new vehicles were released they gave you the Datafax in the magazine to add to the contents of your game. There was the Gorkamorka game around issue #230 which gave you a floorplan and tokens to play a game called "Brewhouse bash".

White Dwarf just reflects the way that the company all came under the control of suits looking to wring money out of it, the personal hobby elements are pushed aside for advertising the lowest common denominator content as far as gaming goes. They don't do anything any more that isn't seen as being immediately cost effective, and creating a 'gaming supplement' which fosters the hobby isn't part of their strategy. Maybe it's because they see their main customer base as being kids that have a short term interest that they have to fleece as quick as possible for maximum profit; they won't have the skill or patience to scratch build something so why encourage it? Just supply a few plastic buildings and fill that magazine space with adverts. They don't believe in investing in players to keep them long term because the money is all in the newcommers buying into it. Real gaming content, be it the painting of individual staff, the making of terrain, the develoment or rules and ideas to sell in a magazine is simply viewed as an inefficent way to fill the magazine. Magazine "quality" is quantified by what it looks like, being colourful and glossy and pushing the latest products.

I'll reiterate what others have already said. White Dwarf is nothing, and has never been anything, but a printed commercial for GW products that you have to pay for.

It's not a hobby magazine like Dragon Magazine used to be. Dragon used to have articles about multiple different gaming systems from multiple different game manufacturers back in the day. White Dwarf has never contained content for anything besides GW products.

While WD used to have more supplemental stuff (new rules, FAQs, scenarios, etc.) than it does now, it still served no other purpose than to encourage you to buy/play GW games.

By this point, some 20 years into the existence of WD, none of us should be surprised by this.

Oh, as to the quality of the Battle Reports, they never use "tournament quality" armies because they're more interested in the casual gamer than the tournament gamer. GW has made that painfully clear for more than a decade.

Saldiven wrote:White Dwarf has never contained content for anything besides GW products.

I think it did but you'll have to go a looong time back to find it.

I agree with the advertising. White Dwarf needs to settle down with it. Especially considering the magazine is one of the most expensive ive ever seen. When you think about it, it makes no sense. White dwarf is not a magazine that is easily accessible or commonly found in bookstores or news stands. When an individual picks up a copy of the mag, they typically know what they are looking at before they open the cover. Its not as if its a People or GQ mag where the average reader will find themselves browsing through it; no, this is a magazine with a certain specificity dedicated to a small group of readers who are aware of this game.

I used to buy the magazine good or bad articles, just to have it. Now because of the ads coupled with the 9$ shelf price, I carefully choose the issues I want

reds8n wrote: I've heard very good things about "Game Forces" magazine, I've only seen a few previews currently, but some of the modelling stuff is supposed to be absurdly good.

Will check into this, thanks for the tip.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I assume only newbies buy the magazine because there's nothing in it for the long term hobbyist. It's just an advertising piece you are expected to pay for. And it is expensive even before you consider the number of pages devoted to advertising their own stuff. There are cheaper magazines out there full of modelling articles and reviews and readers models, and coverage of events etc..

Names please or it didnt happen

White Dwarf............I still have the bestest of them all, the first time they had a Bat Rep about the Carnage scenario, the free-for-all with CSM, 2 Orks, and some other race.

That's the only one I've kept for so long...

Been out of the hobby for a while but WD now does not interest me. It seems the only outlet left for experimental rules is imperial armour. The 'Index Astartes' period of WD was the best time, pre 6th edition WHFB white dwarf was a bit rubbish IMHO. I think it generally went downhill after Fat bloke. I think the guy that ruined it was an Ex editior of 'SFX' IIRC. The mag seemed alot more 'disposable' after WD295-300. Agree with a previous poster about 'less writing' in mags in general. EDGE is the only Mag i am happy to pay for.

NAVARRO wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:I assume only newbies buy the magazine because there's nothing in it for the long term hobbyist. It's just an advertising piece you are expected to pay for. And it is expensive even before you consider the number of pages devoted to advertising their own stuff. There are cheaper magazines out there full of modelling articles and reviews and readers models, and coverage of events etc..

Names please or it didnt happen

Well for a start my dad gets Finescale Modeller each month. There's a couple of detailed builds each month, an article or so on a technique, simple or advanced like chrome finish or rust or something like masks and airbrushing, they review several kits (someone actually builds the kit and talks about it rather than looking in the box), they have a few pages where readers submit photos, some readers tips, a letters page, they cover the odd model show and it's just over £3.

Ed_Bodger wrote:I have only been playing guard for about six months but I have won three tournaments with them and have never lost a game
Thoughts?

I think you play mech guard. And I am not impressed it's a point click army where the only real thought process is target selection and how many flying trilas jets to place. I really don't like them at all.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Saldiven wrote:White Dwarf has never contained content for anything besides GW products.

I think it did but you'll have to go a looong time back to find it.

Yep. When it first came out, it had articles for all sorts of games(including D&D rules and campaigns and the like).

WD used to have D&D, Call of Cthulhu and other articles, scenarios and adverts in it. A long time ago, I admit (circa WD50). By WD80ish, it was purely GW.

Paradoxically it will be because there is no advertising in WD that will make the magazine more expensive on the shelf.
That and the fact that GW know there will be someone or their parents that will fork out the asking price.

Up until the infamous GIANT! issue (305 maybe or so) the US version had content from the US WD team which was very hobby content rich. I think around that time the US portion was closed down and everyone began to get the same content from the UK. I canceled soon after. There is always some confusion on white dwarf threads because the US and UK version were quite a bit different around and after the Paul Sawyer era.

The US version was excellent through the Paul Sawyer era up until Owen Rees took over. The decline in quality was immediately and obviously apparent (but not so for the UK, who had been getting lame content for several years prior to this I guess). This is when they closed down the discussion boards because people were pissed off about it.
I always get confused when people say the content hasn't changed much, but it seems like most of these people are talking about the UK version. For the US version it was like night and day when the US WD team was sacked.

Fifty wrote:WD used to have D&D, Call of Cthulhu and other articles, scenarios and adverts in it. A long time ago, I admit (circa WD50). By WD80ish, it was purely GW.

There was still a greater diversity of games over the years represented within the magazine making it a very varied read because they made so many more different products. Even when they stopped covering other people's games it wasn't as if they were short of their own. They used to do a huge range games like Chainsaw Warrior, Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper, and these were supported on occasion by WD. The Judge Dredd RPG had a few items, there was a slew of material for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and in later years Man o' War, Spacefleet, Epic, Dark Future, Bloodbowl, Talisman and Space Hulk all got a slice of WD coverage meaning there was a lot more variety and lots of things getting a bit of support.

Now it's just 40K, fantasy and LOTR, releases of things like Talisman have been farmed off elsewhere and Space Hulk that they actually did themselves was given some page space for advertising its release and little since from what I can see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

asmith wrote:I always get confused when people say the content hasn't changed much, but it seems like most of these people are talking about the UK version.

It has to be said that WD has been poor for a surprisingly long time now and that only people in the hobby 10 years or more will be aware quite to the degree which it has declined, if you've only been buying it in the UK 2-3 years then you've missed its peak by a long way, it's not changed because it's been at rock bottom for a good while. I don't think I've even bought a WD in 3 years, just flick through in the shop and look at the pictures and desperately hope for a sign of improvement.

Saldiven wrote:
It's not a hobby magazine like Dragon Magazine used to be. Dragon used to have articles about multiple different gaming systems from multiple different game manufacturers back in the day. White Dwarf has never contained content for anything besides GW products.

Funny thing is, to find a non-D&D focused issue of Dragon, you'd have to pretty much go back to the time of the non-GW focused White Dwarf.

Ed_Bodger wrote:

Erasoketa wrote:You're welcome

Hey, I still buy it every month, it's the only drug I use. Most of the issues in the last years have been rather useless for me. I think I've only enjoyed the painting articles.

Sorry dude I meant H.B.M.C his comment really wasn't helpful

The Original poster didn't ask for "help", he asked for people's opinions, which is exactly what H.B.M.C. posted.

Not to mention that that the truth hurts sometimes...

People should speak with their wallets and stop buying WD or stop complaning when they get more of the same

WD's usefulness as anything other then a glorified catalog is questionable in the extreme...

@ howard treesongAgreed, but even at the time of the transition there was a lot of debate on the topic, I think boiling down mostly to if you had been reading the UK or US version at the time. This all happened about 5 years ago now

I remember a time when I really looked forward to a new WD hitting the news stands. Inside its hallowed covers were game reviews,book reviews,figure reviews, articles covering other manufacturer's gaming systems. In other words it was enjoyable to read;that ended round about issue 100 or so when it went totally inhouse. I didn't like what I saw and stopped buying it for a while(4 years) and only picked it up again around issue 200. It lost its fun hobby element long ago and this has been replaced by the hard sell; the 'you really need this expensive new unit or you will lose' approach they have been using. I don't even look at the adverts at all, I find them totally irrelevant and just designed to get us to shell out more. I think WD would be wise to consider running adverts/articles covering non GW products again,at the least they would get their credibility back in the eyes of critics, they'd also make more money which they seem to like to do.

Howard A Treesong wrote:There was still a greater diversity of games over the years represented within the magazine making it a very varied read because they made so many more different products. Even when they stopped covering other people's games it wasn't as if they were short of their own. They used to do a huge range games like Chainsaw Warrior, Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper, and these were supported on occasion by WD. The Judge Dredd RPG had a few items, there was a slew of material for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and in later years Man o' War, Spacefleet, Epic, Dark Future, Bloodbowl, Talisman and Space Hulk all got a slice of WD coverage meaning there was a lot more variety and lots of things getting a bit of support.

Now it's just 40K, fantasy and LOTR, releases of things like Talisman have been farmed off elsewhere and Space Hulk that they actually did themselves was given some page space for advertising its release and little since from what I can see.

Agreed. Things like Blood Bowl, Dark Future (great game), Space Hulk, Warhammer Quest, WFRP, etc... all got great support. Even the fluff was better in those days.

I quit WD at issue 300 which is about six years ago now. I've never looked back.

I offloaded about 150 of them couple of months ago for £15 worth of Warmachine minis.

Fair enough, HBMC.

I still mostly get White Dwarf for the glossy photos. I don't think I read many of the articles
you mention being so fond of. Remember, I learned much of the hobby from the Internet
and Dakka Dakka.

WD for the last 4-5 years has basically been a large ad mag. There is nothing profound, nothing you can't find online.

Gone are the profound articles, the 'deviation from the norm'

GW are now trying to make a cookie cutter hobby : buy the boxes assemble your dudes play games. Gone are the 'lets convert and make mental stuff from deodorant bottles'

LordWaffles wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:I have only been playing guard for about six months but I have won three tournaments with them and have never lost a game
Thoughts?

I think you play mech guard. And I am not impressed it's a point click army where the only real thought process is target selection and how many flying trilas jets to place. I really don't like them at all.

Actually I don't play mech guard at all I play a balance between tanks big infantry platoons and CCS in chimeras with a mobile Vet squad in a Vandetta. Thanks for making an assumption based on nothing. Idiot

Saldiven wrote:I'll reiterate what others have already said. White Dwarf is nothing, and has never been anything, but a printed commercial for GW products that you have to pay for.

It's not a hobby magazine like Dragon Magazine used to be. Dragon used to have articles about multiple different gaming systems from multiple different game manufacturers back in the day. White Dwarf has never contained content for anything besides GW products.

...

...

As a point of fact you're wrong. Back in the good old days it genuinely covered a wide variety of games and had useful articles for them. This started to decline by the time they hit issue 100, back in the early to mid 1980s.

Gradually the amount of GW games content increased at the expense of other systems.

Once GW stopped publishing any licensed titles it was entirely filled with their own products. At least that still included the Specialist games and Warhammer Fantasy Role-play.

Then their own range of products was gradually reduced until now it is 40K, WHFB and occasional bits of LoTR.

I assume you are young enough not to have personal experience of such ancient history.

I got a few free ones this summer (boy scouts FTW!), and the only parts I really liked out of them were the various editorials (i.e. standard bearer, blanchitsu, ect.)

filbert wrote:I understand where you are coming from but given that you appear to be a fairly long time WD reader, I am surprised that this has got to the point of annoyance. It has always been thus with WD. I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times that the new release army has lost a battle report (and most of the time when they fail to win, the game ends in a draw rather than a loss). This is standard fare for WD; as integral to the magazine as the advertising. The battle report is nothing more than an advert in itself.

Take the mag for what it is - a way to sell more minis. Glean from it what you will (some articles are good despite what this board would have you believe) and take it with a pinch of salt. Personally, I buy WD but then again, I am under no illusions as to what I receive. Its expensive, but then again, so is everything GW, and it provides me with enough diversion and amusement to justify the cost. When it stops doing that, I will stop buying it.

Got as far as the price bit... (the following is not aimed you filbert, or indeed anyone in particular)

All magazines are pricey these days. I buy White Dwarf, Viz, Fortean Times, and occasionally Bizarre. Might even squeak the odd copy of Empire. Not a single one is what I would call cheap. And out the lot of them, WD is the only one not to be subsidised by external advertising. Not much in Fortean though!

Actually go and look at other magazines on the shelf. Take 'Mens Magazines'. So. Many. Adverts. And yet still bloody expensive. Not to mention full of incredibly poor articles about a lifestyle nothing short of a Premiership Footballer who threatened to quit his club, then suddenly signed a new megabucks deal can actually lead....

If you think WD is a poor magazine, might I suggest reading more, and opinionating less?

Also worth noting that in my case, I'll read and re-read my WD several times in a month, and make continued use of the painting articles. The other magazines I buy, not so much. Apart from Viz. That's ace for when you're in the cludgy.

It's £4.50 per issue.

I don't take mens' mags but hobby mags are cheaper in my experience. Adverts are hobby related and not particularly prevelant.

Also I find that a good quilted, absorbant bog roll far superior to Viz and WD for the little boys' room.

White Dwarf has changed over the last 8 or so years. Not necessarily for the worse, although I would argue that, but mostly I think to respond to the sheer redundancy of a printed magazine in an online world.

What exactly could White Dwarf publish that isnt' readily available for free online? They can do a ten page masterclass, while Les can do an hour long video. They can do a tactics article, while I can read an article on BOLS, Dakka, or other blogs to get a rounder view. They can highlight awesome looking armies, while Dakka alone has a huge catalog of great looking forces.

Stepping away from all rules for 40k eliminated the one area that WD couldn't be match at. There was hope with Apoc and Planetstrike that WD would start to include all kinds of neat new scenarios and campaigns and the stuff I like to call "soft" rules.

And it's just 40k that gets the shaft. WFB gets at least new scenarios and stuff, while LotR gets new rules all the time.

malfred wrote:I sometimes wonder if WD has changed, or if it's the game and the hobbyists
who have changed.

My first exposure to WD was when I bought a stack of them (about 10) from Ebay, and they were all at least a decade old or so (issue #200-250ish). By even the most impartial measure, the magazine was a very, very different proposition.

#232: Battlefleet Gothic on the front cover. 8 pages of background fluff on some specific ships written by Gav Thorpe. 4 pages on some new chaos models, like the chaos rhino. 8 pages on how to build an efficient Lizardmen army, with interspersed half-page paint tutorials. Then another 5 or 6 pages talking about how to field specific units. Then 2 pages of a short story of the adventures of a lizardman skink. 6 pages showing you how to build terrain, such as one with hills and trees with wrapped wire for tree, and hills made of insulation foam (which he at one point nearly melted with a spraycan, forgetting it was polystyrene). He also shows you how to make steps out of cardboard for a temple entrance/pyramid. A studio contest for painting one o the new CSM lord marine - the same lord in 8 different schemes with explanations of how to paint each. Chapter Approved 40k: new wargear. Added Blind & Smoke grenades to scouts, assault squads, eldar guardians, IST, and Ork Kommandos with how to play and points cost. Then 4 pages of FAQ's and rule clarifications on various codexes. Then, game scenarios - one for an assassination, one based on Sister of Battle. Now moving on to this months new chaos models, followed by about 4 pages on various conversions. Page 85-100 are a scenario and battle report for Battlefleet Gothic. which was apparently a recent release back then. Total length was 116 pages.

Contrast: The last issue I have in hand of WD.

Issue 369: WHFB High elves are on the cover. Next is 8 pages of new models to buy, covering 1 faction for WHFB and some LOTR stuff (and a quarter page blurb about Death Angel from FFG. 15-23 are background fluff on High Elves, only the models that were released this month. 24-25 are a high elf army list using mostly the new high elf models released this month. 26-27 - are pics of the new high elves with SKU's. 28-55 are spent replaying the exact same game from the last issue, using last month's Island of Blood new release and the same board and models. 58-63 is LOTR flyover territory. then 4 pages of various horses you can field in WHFB, prominently featuring the new High Elf flying mount hero. 2 pages of Jervis talking vaguely about new WHFB rules, where less then 3/4 of a single page is actually text and precisely zero percent is insightful, new, or useful to anyone. 8 pages of masterclass - painting the new high elves. 2 page Island of Blood ad. 6 ages of army showcases (all WHFB) which are mostly just pictures like a ctaalog. 2 pages of Dan Abnett plugging his new Black Library book. 8 pages of Word Bearers model images, with a 2x 3 panel how-to paint a single model - the tzeenth horrors and posessed CSM. 4 pages of how to convert the newly released 40k terrain releases, of which the "conversions" solely involved gluing or adding things from the Bitz packs. Then 2 page picture of that terrain surrounded by SM models. 15 pages of event and store finders. Then inexplicably, another page reminding you that some new High Elf models are available to order now (!) complete with SKU numbers.

To the OP: It seems the think that finally made you stop supporting WD was that battle report you described. Clearly you're familiar enough with the list of the losing side (aka 'not the army being released right now) to see all the glaring holes.

I'm surprised you haven't seen this before. You say you're playing IG for only 6 months but I believe you've got more GW armies right? If so you should have realised that this has been the norm for a looooong time.

For a personal example: any WD WHFB battle report featuring Empire as the losing team during 6th and 7th Ed. None of these lists had detachments but did go big on troops. It does not take a genius to realise that failing to take advantage of an army specific special rule that enhances ones infantry is not a smart thing in an infantry list!

The last time I bought WD (UK) with some regularity was during the middle Sawyer years, from then on he was clearly forced by management to change the style of the mag and it showed and ultimately he stepped down, probably because he wasn't getting any enjoyment any more from the product he created. Since then it's been maybe a few mags when Empire was released for a new edition, they published the GIANT rules etc. Haven't bought one in years and sometimes my wife will spot on in a newspaper store and say: "Hey, whey don't you buy that one, you liked that magazine didn't you?", yeah 'liked' is the correct word here.

Well said Ed_bodger you can only put up with some thing for so long before you snap I think its best to use White Dwarf as light reading.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Saldiven wrote:White Dwarf has never contained content for anything besides GW products.

I think it did but you'll have to go a looong time back to find it.

Even then, they were technically "GW" products, at least in the UK, anyway - as far as licenced products go.

Games Workshop had the licence to publish D&D, Paranoia, CoC, etc in the UK (as TSR, Chaosium and other US games companies didn't have the clout yet to adequately cover that market with their product).

Polonius wrote:White Dwarf has changed over the last 8 or so years. Not necessarily for the worse, although I would argue that, but mostly I think to respond to the sheer redundancy of a printed magazine in an online world.

What exactly could White Dwarf publish that isnt' readily available for free online? They can do a ten page masterclass, while Les can do an hour long video. They can do a tactics article, while I can read an article on BOLS, Dakka, or other blogs to get a rounder view. They can highlight awesome looking armies, while Dakka alone has a huge catalog of great looking forces.

Stepping away from all rules for 40k eliminated the one area that WD couldn't be match at. There was hope with Apoc and Planetstrike that WD would start to include all kinds of neat new scenarios and campaigns and the stuff I like to call "soft" rules.

And it's just 40k that gets the shaft. WFB gets at least new scenarios and stuff, while LotR gets new rules all the time.

^^ This = exactly right.

This is their core problem. There is nothing for WD to cover except new GW models, "soft" rules (which they don't do any more) and things which are already available for free on the internet.

Kilkrazy wrote:This is their core problem. There is nothing for WD to cover except new GW models, "soft" rules (which they don't do any more) and things which are already available for free on the internet.

And? So? But? Therefore?

Ed_Bodger wrote:Thanks for that truly helpful comment that furthers debate and makes my time typing worthwhile.

Personally I enjoy Wargames Illustrated right now. No science fiction or fantasy (usually) but I find it much more enjoyable and inspiring. And best of all the terrain isn't all full of skulls.

And so, that's why WD isn't worth buying, but there is plenty of better stuff available for Vets, therefore we read that instead.

Mr. Burning wrote:Remember GW's rule about having fun.

Battle reports in WD have always featured builds that are not competitive. Even when they get shop staff or tourney winners involved etc they always change their lists to make them a bit of everything.

'My list usually features lots of win x but seeing as I am in WD this month Ill use lots of crappy y and zees'

Is the formulaic comment.

This is one of the reasons I stopped getting white dwarf. It is a shame because a lot of people don't really care about the outcome of the battle report they just want to see a cool game with very nice pictures. I don't mind them changing their army lists to have some of everything but when they play a few games and pick the one where the featured army wins I find it annoying. I remember the first time I read a battle report that admitted that this is what they did really annoyed me.

The strange thing is that Black Gobbo was being released online regularly for free (eh?) but was full of stuff that WD could have made use of. While the magazine was a waste of time there were people writing and doing interesting things proving that creativity does exist and such things could be published. Yet it was simply decided to close it down and wipe the archive instead of adopting any of the approach into WD.

Black Gobbo was a beautiful piece of work. I have no idea how they financed that thing, but it was beautiful.

malfred wrote:Black Gobbo was a beautiful piece of work. I have no idea how they financed that thing, but it was beautiful.

I think it started to lean towards advertising in later times rather than doing hobby stuff, but undoubtedly they scrapped it because it was costing money and being offered for free. I think they missed a trick there. The scrapping of the archive was a pretty poor show from GW though, it was a goldmine for ideas and inspiration.

I don't see the problem, sure the standard of WD has dropped quite substantially since way back when, but I actually thought this issue wasn't that bad for once. The interview with Jes was pretty interesting. There was mention of them bringing out a model for the venom, new hemonculi stuff (maybe Wrack's?) and something else wytch cult based. The battle report was ok, it showed a nice selection of the new DE model's (shame he IG list was a bit dumb though). I'm sure the painting guide will be quite handy too.

Yeah sure WD isn't what it used to be, but I don't see why this issue prompted a rant, by the low standards I now set for the magazine, I was impressed.

The rant came from the battle report it was so unbalanced from selection of armies to the end of the game that it was the equivalent of the England Rugby Team playing a full on game against Lowerstoft Secondary U13 girls. Furthermore it is depressing that every month WD is a waste of time unless you are interested in the release of the month. It wasn't that long ago that one could pick up WD even when a new army was release ad find that at least 30% of the articles had nothing to do with the release and this did not include the tedious pages of club directorys and GW stores - These should not be in the magazine this is what the website should have been designed for. The may as well call it: Citadel Minatures new release catalogue.

malfred wrote:I sometimes wonder if WD has changed, or if it's the game and the hobbyists
who have changed.

I wondered this, did some research and found that WD IS NOW .

I used to have subscriptions for years, until 3 years ago due to being a student and wanting to watch my out goings. I took a years worth of WD, from 293 to 304 and compared it to the most recent year of WD issues (luckily for me, but unluckily for him, my friend still has a subscription).

What did i find you ask?

from 293 to 304, colletions of interesting converted units (such as the ordo hereticus retinue units), army guides, 'eavy metal, staff/reader's armies and models, index articles, gaming technique articles, more fluff, battle reports (but still usually one sided), chapter approved. All round interesting, even the areas of the hobby i don't care much for (warhammer fantasy) are still interesting and worth a read and causes that spark of curiosity you remember having the first time you saw a Games Workshop store display window.

the latest issues, 'eavy metal (but usually only of the latest release), adverts for new minis, in depth report on new minis, battle report of new minis (very one sided), standard bearer (an article page that basically says 'veterans quiet down, we don't care')and page after page of adverts.


This is the main problem with WD now, it has now become a monthly advert book, THAT READERS PAY FOR. I use capitals because think about it 99.9999999999% of companies pay for advertising (whether on tv, radio, billboards, leaflets, fliers, internet marketing) they do not cost the consumer anything (its build into the profit margins of the company), even Coca-Cola, the worlds biggest fizzy pop producer still spends bucket loads of money on adverts without having a terribly overpriced. GW on the other hand have managed to get advertising for thier products that is not only free to them, but actually get customers to pay for it.


What can be taken from this is go to your local GW each month, read the 2-4 pages that actually interest you and then put it back, if a red shirt talks to you about buying it, tell they politely (they are only doing their job) 'no, i don't pay to look at over 100 pages of advertising'





@Ouze:

GW 232 is one of my all time favourite issues

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Buying a WD and complaining about the content is like walking into a tattoo parlour, asking for a tattoo and then complaining afterwards that you got a tattoo. You know what WD is, it's been this way for years and years and years, so you got exactly what you paid for - a thick flashy advertising booklet masquerading as a hobby magazine.

I concur with this 100%. White Dwarf was a must read in the 80's, a might read in the early 90's, a can read in the late 90's and a do not read since.

I have WD 133 - 182... I suspect I have not missed much since then.

I used to love WD, interesting battles handy painting guides and even the games I didn't play I found the articles interesting enough to read. In once case the article actually made me go out and lay down £30 on the game (Man-O-War). That is what I want from a magazine, something that makes me want to pick it up and read... oh, and if they still printed the Random vouchers for money off during grand openings and random events that might make me pick up the odd copy as well

I actually did read the new one over the weekend. It's by no means the worst issue in recent years. The Dark Eldar background made for good reading. I'd agree however that the battle report was uninspiring, but maybe I've grown out of them anyway.

Yes batrep was pointless.
The AMAZING thing about the 'new' DE is the lack of minis... in the oldest Dex it was the same - only warriors, warpbeasts, wyches raiders and dodgy looking scourges kitbashed from old metal gargoyle wings...
'New' Release and theres a severe lack of minis!

Anyway the JJ article was actually inspiring.

Phototoxin wrote:The AMAZING thing about the 'new' DE is the lack of minis... in the oldest Dex it was the same - only warriors, warpbeasts, wyches raiders and dodgy looking scourges kitbashed from old metal gargoyle wings...
'New' Release and theres a severe lack of minis!

Hmm... seems to be fairly well supported if you ask me. Kabal Warriors, Wyches, Reavers, Hellions, Raider, Ravager and Mandrakes, not mention two special characters and an Archon. Bear in mind that releasing a new range of miniatures is fairly resource heavy, but even then, they've outdone themselves. If the Skaven had got the equivalent the first time round, I'd have been a happy warpstone muncher. Have a little patience. The Haemonculi stuff will come.

Phototoxin wrote:Anyway the JJ article was actually inspiring.

*splutter*

Must. Investigate.

While I remember some of the articles mentioned earlier (making trees/a terrain piece of a whirlwind in quicksand, using wire, paper mache, and GW bits, and other such cool projects) were on GW's old website (red background, mostly), and I really enjoyed them while they were still available. As previously mentioned, the only exposure to WD that I have is a few issues 8-12 months old now. The impression I got is similar to that of, say, "People" magazine. No, you are not buying to read the celebrity interviews because you know that it'll be a bunch of bull that has been extended by some ghostwriter whose name is in 5 point script at the bottom of some other page. You're buying it for the cool pictures and newest information about said celebrity ( or in this case army), what they're up to, what is new.

Just want to say that out of my limited exposure to WD, I liked a few of the editorials, like one about losing gracefully, or how they choose a new army to create. Another article on how to be a better defender in planetstrike had some nice rule supplements too. So are these isolated incidents?

I’ve been gaming with GW games since ’91, and a lot has changed in that time, but a lot of things have stayed the same, and that includes people saying White Dwarf used to be so much better than it is now. Barring the very earliest days when it covered games outside of the GW stable, and arguably the old Chapter Approved days when you got units needed to make your armies competitive in the book, it never really had much content. I mean, how many times can include amazing new painting and modelling techniques in a monthly magazine?

It’s a good read when you’re new to they hobby, but nothing more than that. I don’t think it could ever be anything more than that.

BluntmanDC wrote:This is the main problem with WD now, it has now become a monthly advert book, THAT READERS PAY FOR. I use capitals because think about it 99.9999999999% of companies pay for advertising (whether on tv, radio, billboards, leaflets, fliers, internet marketing) they do not cost the consumer anything (its build into the profit margins of the company)

Fashion magazines? Really, any industry with an aesthetically pleasing end product will likely produce a magazine full of the best examples and charge their readers for it.

And I don’t know why you’d compare a mass market soft drink manufacturer to GW, they’re really just not in the same industry. Might as well compare them for NASA for all the sense it would make. GW’s industry counterparts would be more like WotC.

Why buy it if your not interested in the releases then? Sorry if I'm sounding a little bit critical, but whats the point in buying something you don't want to read?

I agree that the last section where they constantly list all the stockists is a waste of ink and paper. There was a deacent sized LotR article; but I dont know if its any good having never taken the game seriously.

To be quite honest there is nothing in the magazine that they couldn't put into an article for the site (they put painting walkthroughs on the site already). But if people buy the magazine then why should they stop making it?

I can't see why anybody would subscribe to it (unless you have a great interest in every game system and race within each ). If you're interested in Dark Eldar then the new issue probably justifies the £4.50 to buy it, but if your not of course your wasting your money.

And that is exactly the realisation I came to it has just been a case of wanting WD to get better for ages so I continued to buy it. Now however I am voting with my wallet and will not be buying it again.

I don't blame you
In the last few years I've only ever bought 2 issues; this Dark Edar one (I've been waiting years for some nice looking models because I've always loved the fluff) and the Spearhead addition purely for the Nightspinner rules.

I've got to the point that I know there will be nothing good in there 95% of the time, so only bother when I know its specifically about somthing I'm interested in.

I was just a little shocked that your rage started because of an issue that was (by the usual standards) pretty informative

As someone with no interest in Dark Eldar other than to appreciate the models it was the battle report that was the straw that broke the camels back.

Yeah I completely agree with the "fix" that was the battle report. That imperial guard army could not have been more custom built to allow the DE to wail on them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Haha! You bought a White Dwarf.

You deserve everything you get, really.

This guy is awesome.

Like some sort of.. battered wife who loves her husband too much to leave him, HBMC displays the classic example of nerd rage. Venting via a forum devoted to GW. It would be funny if he was under 16, but as he is (apparently) a grown man i find it really rather sad and depressing.

I read WD every month, by going into WH Smiths and sitting with it for twenty minutes, its always enjoyable to flick through considering its all about the hobby, but yeah, not worth buying if you can devour it in 20 minutes surely? (maybe its all the adverts!)

Its always worth a look though, the painting tutorials and the wonderful minis, showcases etc..

And yes.. i skip Jervis column unless it looks particularly interesting, and it almost always never does.

I only pick up white dwarf from one of the local used bookshops since I can get them for 3 dollars a piece. I agree with the old ones being alot better. I will have to check out war games illustrated.

The only White Dwarf I remember where the new army lost was nids for their most recent codex


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Also WD is not bad if you happen to win a 1 year subscription in a raffle at GW

I finally got this months issue. Yep the battle report is as suspicious as always. Literally. Back in 3rd edition, when the second wave of Dark Eldar was released (Hellions, Asdrubael Vect and such minis), they made a 1000p battle report. It was DE vs... Catachan (using IG+Catachan codex).

As suspicious as always

mattyrm wrote:HBMC displays the classic example of nerd rage.

Nerd... rage?

What about my post sounds angry? I know that tone over the interwebs is somewhat harder to determine, given that we cannot actually hear one another's voices, but... rage? I was laughing. I even wrote "ha ha". Was that too subtle for you?




And I love how you randomly appear out of no where just to attack me 4 pages into a thread. Stay classy!

sebster wrote:Fashion magazines? Really, any industry with an aesthetically pleasing end product will likely produce a magazine full of the best examples and charge their readers for it.

Thats for people that want to see new releases or trends, a HOBBY magazine should be about the hobby (everything that goes into it, including the LOTR bits). It shouldn't be a glorified order book with page after page of advertising. The first WD i ever bought/read was 215, it came with card terrain and rules for the very fun mini game 'full tilt' (bretonian jousting), and the issue was full of hobby stuff, not just new releases.

Unless it returns to the good (very) old days i won't be buying another WD

So what would we like to see in White Dwarf then? I know what i'd like to see:

-Battle Reports stemming over a campaign
-Tactics for 2-3 selected units every month (be this from fantasy or 40k, i don't mind)
- Less advertising
- Some short stories (which i havent seen in a while)
- Some FAQ discussion?

Any other ideas?

Since this has gone on for 4 pages. I have satiated my hunger for GW hate for the day... actually, my quota for the weekmay have been filled...

if you take anything from this thread, please understand this:

WD is basiacllay a 'catalogue' released in monthly intervals... to entice you to buy more of their product...

It is a catalogue that you pay to read...

More the fool you.

liam0404 wrote:Yeah I completely agree with the "fix" that was the battle report.

Whenever someone declares their outrage at a battle report being fixed I feel exactly the same as if someone were to declare their outrage at professional wrestling being fixed.


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BluntmanDC wrote:Thats for people that want to see new releases or trends, a HOBBY magazine should be about the hobby

They both show the new releases and trends, basically amounting to a big product catalogue, and they both

Unless it returns to the good (very) old days i won't be buying another WD

It won't, it can't. There is only so much to this hobby, and if you read WD for any length of time you will notice a lot of repetition.

So stop buying it, it's okay and you don't need any internet outrage to justify your decision to stop buying a magazine you aren't very interested in any more. Meanwhile some young kid will buy his first WD tomorrow, think it's amazing, get it every month for 6 months or a year, maybe more, and then find some battle report that was even more rigged than the usual standard. And so at some point down the track he'll post on the internet somewhere how WD isn't as good as it was when he first started buying it, and so the circle will continue.

Yeah white dwarves have gotten really really bad.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Haha! You bought a White Dwarf.

You deserve everything you get, really.

Guys just remember:

I would just like to say that I am quite happy with the four White Dwarf issues that I've purchased over the past two years.

I have a hard time imagining why someone would get a subscription unless they owned a hobby store and needed material to use in tempting new customers, though.

Fafnir wrote:Considering the customer base GW is most interested in, 26 is absolutely ancient.

I guess I'm buggered then...

Hee hee, me too!

Seriously though, I got a sub back in the spring becasue I noticed that I was habitulaly buying it off the news stand and figured that a sub would help me save a little money over doing that. I agree, it isn't the best mag I've ever read from a content perspective, but I do find enough stuff of interest to make it worthwhile to me.

One thing that the bat reps do help me with is just seeing out an army performs on the table. Not really as a realistic reflection of how a tournament battle might go, but just as an educational lesson on what stuff is in the latest codex and how it might stomp/nomnom/fricase my Guardsmen in the next game I play .

1) THE BATTLE REPORT: First off I realise that it would not be a good thing if the new army gets tabled but this month has gone too far. First of all if Andrew Kendrick is meant to be such a good Imperial Guard General then why did he use such a crappy list - 3 infantry platoons with very little upgrades on the command squads, no chimeras and only two infantry squads in each. I have only been playing guard for about six months but I have won three tournaments with them and have never lost a game (this is not trying to sound arrogant just to put in place the fact I know how to win with guard). There was very little synergy in his list and I am pretty sure that no one has ever used that list and won a game so is it any surprise he got smashed. Why can't these supposedly awesome generals ever pick competitive lists? Ok I don't want to see tournament winning lists every month but I would like to se some variety between fluffy lists, competitive list and down right evil lists but this should be balanced by both players picking the same kind of list. Apart from when LOTR is the featured report I have never stopped reading the battle report but this month was just ridiculous. I think I have said enough about the Battle Report now if anyone wants to pick up on it I can moan some more later.


When they do this it's delibrite so the DE Will Win, to advertise