Hi guys first of all Im sorry fi this kind of post has been done before and secondly I'm not talking about characters who are very powerful in background but dont have current rules, someone like aenarion, Im talking about a special character who can you can use in an actual points game. This will probably cause some debate between rival factions but first of all (Im a chaos player) Archaon hardly got beaten by Grimgor when he had mortally wounded Valten and beaten a counterattacking Huss when he was taken off guard by Grimgors massive bonce I do love the Grimgor model though

Teclis


/thread

my only question is what if he got into combat with someone like say Archaon, who himself has good magic resistance and is a level 2 Tzeentch sorcerer himself?

KF on imperial dragon with the hammer? He does take up your entire lord points budget for a 3k point game.

HiveFleet wrote:Teclis


/thread

Not exactly, Teclis isn't so much "powerful" as he is just cheap for what he does, he has diminishing returns the higher you go in points, I believe the OP is looking for someone, regardless of points, who is just plain powerful.

I'm thinking maybe Kairos. That Princess khalida I see can completely change a tomb kings army...Grimgor is just my favorite character PERIOD, and on his base size I feel offers the most bang you can get, but the lore of death spells could tear him up potentially.

I think it's between Teclis, kairos, maybe one of the lizardmen slaan (assuming points aren't an issue), archon, and grimgor.

I think from those choices it'd have to be Kairos, with how dominant magic is this edition, he has access to 14 spells! The +6 to cast is almost as good as Teclis' rule, and he carries none of the weaknesses of Teclis (being a complete chump in close combat).

march10k wrote:KF on imperial dragon with the hammer? He does take up your entire lord points budget for a 3k point game.

KF is good in terms of combat capabilities for the Empire but I'm pretty sure he could get squished pretty easily by some mad chaos dude stomping around out there. Haven't actually seen him in game though so..

I somewhat agree with Teclis. Given the right Lore match up with the opposing army his combat stats don't matter all that much, he can wipe the board with his magic. Seen it happen before

Though I'm willing to bet it's someone like Archon or Grimgor who are just beasts in combat.

Malekith on black dragon is the best. He is a combat god and a very good wizzard.

Lord Kroak or Mazumando in my opinion

UNREALPwnage wrote:Malekith on black dragon is the best. He is a combat god and a very good wizzard.

Oh wow... the DE book is sitting right next to me and I forgot about Malekith. For shame Though that combo does cost 920pts lol

UNREALPwnage wrote:Malekith on black dragon is the best. He is a combat god and a very good wizzard.

I'd have to agree with this one. I mean, in game use this is 900+ points of pain and has role priority issues, but he's still sick.

The fluff is irrelevant. Unless you're specifically talking about who is most powerful fluff-wise.

If it's fluff, Archaron is hard to beat cuz he's got the backing of the major Chaos Gods. Teclis, for all his coolness, gets his power from the realms in which Arch's bosses have mastery over.

Lord Kroak, fluffwise, was the most powerful mage ever. He supposedly learned at the feet of the Old Ones themselves and went on to teach the Elves and such. He and his kind actually moved the planet's orbit. It's like that fighting superman question, how do you fight someone who can push your earth into the sun?

If you're talking about actual game mechanics, without more info, not sure what you're asking. Teclis can't melee at all. Or survive it. Kholek Suneater is about the best physical combatant in the game and it's hard seeing a lot of other SP surviving a fight with him, but he's got no ward or spells and can be tarpit. Settra is a powerful force multiplier. Count Vlad Carstein is pretty stupid too. It really depends on what you're facing.

If one hero was automatically an instant win, everyone would have him. Though Teclis does seem to pop up a lot

Yea, the auto win hero is Malekith, you just need to play around 4000 points to use him.

Mannfred von Carstein is also godlike. The two extra dice he gives and his sword that gives you another power/dispel dice for every wound it causes is awsome. With 5 wounds and the ability to take 2 arcane items he is a force to be recconed with.

The fey enchantress has to to be up there for the best lord

ernshmagl wrote:Lord Kroak or Mazumando in my opinion

Yea if we have no points limit, as a lizardmen player i'm sad to admit our specials tend to suck. Also as stated in the leader battle thread Kroq-gar is better for this, he can still cast his bound thingie and is able to actually fight.

I have hard time going with Malekith, when there's much better melee characters (Grimgor, archon) and better casters (kairos, teclis). Though he is pretty strong at both...since he's the only dark elf character with S5 and T4.

I can tell you grimgor would rip him in two...(the whole AF thing...)

The thing with malekith is against teclis he would only have to survive 1 round of magic and he would get in combat and destroy him and with high stats hes unlikely to fail many of the usual pit of shades etc, and against combat monsters like grimgor he could fly around and cast magic all day.

1vs1 in game its malekith or kairos in my opinion.

I think with a well timed WAAAGH! I could catch malektih...then poof goes the dark pansie! But this is against just one character, against about anyone else, Malekith has a fighting chance as he'll most likely swing first, pop the enemie's magic weapon, and laugh with his 2+ ward save.

I'm still stickin with kairos, Malekith is limited to Dark Magic, which while good, pales in comparison to the lores kairos can pick from.

EDIT: You make a good point though, through all my games with grimgor back in 6th/7th edition when he was even more of a beast...getting him into combat was the hardest part, his max move of 8" is pretty easy to overcome if you're the enemy.

Mazumando I would say. One of the most powerful active Slann at the moment and with a mind to use that power ( Turning Albion into a jungle and hiding it again from the world ).

Lexx wrote:Mazumando I would say. One of the most powerful active Slann at the moment and with a mind to use that power ( Turning Albion into a jungle and hiding it again from the world ).

The reasons you stated were based on fluff, this is purely off of game stats!!

A Fanatic of course. So much pain packed into 25 pts. I dunno my ogres fear my friends Skull Taker, Heroic Killing Blow on an Ogre is not good.

Tiq-Taq-Toe!

yeah i agree Malekith is a contender simply because he's a great mage and fighter, Teclis is an uber magic user but in combat his t2 lets him down, archaon is obviously there and grimgor is an awesome fighter

If we are talking about combat heroes, skulltaker is definately up there. Cheap, and will Killing Blow ANY character on a 5+....he is fairly awesome. However, his cowardly opponent can just refuse the challenge if he is in a unit.

It all comes down to how you define "powerful", if its pure destructive power it would come down to one of the great wizards(Teclis, Kairos Fateweaver, Slanns(not familiar with the special character ones but they should fit right in here) and Malekith) or a real brutal close combat character like Archaon, Kholek Suneater, Malekith, Grimgor and Skarbrand, I would also love to add Tyrion here...but with rather few attacks and the loss of being able to use both ward save and regeneration I sadly don't think he is good enough to be called "the most powerful", under all that shiny stuff he is still only a thoughness 3 elf.

Though I would say my money would go on Kairos Fateweaver(he can choose spells to be able to perform well in close combat aswell as blasting away in the magic phase) Archaon or Malekith(these to are both "fighty" heroes with good protection and being wizards) are close second and third. Though I assume this on that magic won't fail to much and they will get off the spells they "need" to perform well. I think it comes down to be able to add something to the army in more than one "damage" phase to define what makes a really powerful character. Unless ofcourse they can find some way around getting blown of the table in the other phases by more diverse characters and units.
*shrugs*

Powerful would have to be the ablility to survive and deal out damage in all rounds of combat, and i think Malekith is the best at that, he is a competent wizzard and can eaisily hold his own in combat.

i think simply for versatility malekith is the one to watch, for combat I'd have to say archaon or grimgor, for magic I'd say Teclis, kairos or a Slann, is that a pretty good summary

That sounds right, lets now talk about hero level characters, Konrad von Carstein is pretty good.

plus the model is brilliant , I personally think lokhir fellheart is a good character for his points, caradryan is good simply because after he dies he can potentially kill his enemy anyway , unsure on others, not enough army books

With infinite time, the Green Knight is clearly the best. You can't kill him permanently, so he just keeps coming at you until your'e dead.

Too bad Crom isn't in these arguments either. Crom's special rules blows blow just about every character in the game away.

Without Infinite time, I would probably imagine that chaos special characters round out the top. Properly tooled Dwarf Lords, though, can really wreck just about anyone's day. I actually like generic dwarf lords more than the special characters because they were better at everything.

We are talking hero level characters, the green knight is a Lord level characted, he also dies very easy to combat res, that is why i stoped using him.

UNREALPwnage wrote:We are talking hero level characters, the green knight is a Lord level characted, he also dies very easy to combat res, that is why i stoped using him.

1) Archaon and Grimgor are both Lord Level characters so is teclis. They are mentioned in the first 2 posts

2) I understand that he gets removed from the table due to CRes. BUT if you have unlimited time, he will always resurrect. It may take 785 turns for him to kill archaon. But he will eventually, because he can't be killed. He comes back to life on a 6 always...

I agree with the others that Malekith is a very powerful character, he's certainly in the top 5. He's decent in close combat and is a powerful wizard. The best thing in my opinion is that he's got a 2+ ward save against non-magical attacks and if an enemy character does get in combat with him with a magic weapon he'll likely strike first and destroy it.

Grimgor Ironhide is just brutally powerful in my opinion and is pretty hard to kill too, the only problem is that he's got a low movement. But he's remarkably cheap for what he can do, and if points value was brought in to the equation then he'd be top in my opinion.

Thorgrim grudgebearer is also very good, his stregnth is modified to wound on a 2, ignores armour saves, and causes D3 wounds, this means, along with his pretty high weapon skill, means his going to kill something with almost every one of his attacks. And he's got 7 wounds!

On to high elf characters (bet you can't guess what armies i collect), teclis is very good, because of his magic prowess but i find that the sword is wasted on him, perhaps he should lend it to his brother sometime, as i don't think tyrion's sword isn't that good for a character of his caliber. I also think elarthion the grim is pretty good, though not up there in the top 5 characters

Ragnar4 wrote:

UNREALPwnage wrote:We are talking hero level characters, the green knight is a Lord level characted, he also dies very easy to combat res, that is why i stoped using him.

1) Archaon and Grimgor are both Lord Level characters so is teclis. They are mentioned in the first 2 posts

2) I understand that he gets removed from the table due to CRes. BUT if you have unlimited time, he will always resurrect. It may take 785 turns for him to kill archaon. But he will eventually, because he can't be killed. He comes back to life on a 6 always...

What he's saying is, we've wrapped up the discussion on lord levels, it's bee summarized that grimgor and archon for melee, malekith for both, and teclis, kairos, slaan for magic.

Now the discussion is pertaining to hero levels.

My 2 cents on the topic: Crom is awesome, he can shut down grimgor (taking away him magic axe!) For fluff, my favorite is Borgut Facebeater, though we should probably stick to LEGAL characters...hard to be powerful if you can't hit the table top.

Lokhir is an interesting pick, he's effective to be sure, but I think Konrad has him beat, I'd have to check their initiatives again, because whoever gets to swing first, will most likely win.

Lizardmen have some pretty good hero choices, their only drawbacks is points, but since we're throwing them out the window, Gor'Rok or Chakax can easily be in this discussion. Skulltaker is a hero level as well.

Anyway, just giving some more ideas for people to consider.

Caradryan. Cheapest most powerful hero in game :(

15 pt warlock engineer... Fear him!

I think that this thread under-rates Tyrion a bit at the lord level, but this may just be me.

Skarbrand? Kugath?

mannfred the hero coice is pretty beast, he can just summon hundreds of zomies to kill you.

UNREALPwnage wrote:mannfred the hero coice is pretty beast, he can just summon hundreds of zomies to kill you.

Maybe, but zombies aren't the best unit ever to have graced the warhammer battlefields.

We can always hope they do Nagash on his skeleton dragon (as in original undead book background), also what happened to the skeleton legions of nagash book??

I understand that the discussion has moved past lord level characters, but I am surprised no one mentioned Thorgrim Grudgebearer.

In a straight up fight, Thorgrim will beat Grimgor nearly every time. Granted he costs more than twice of what Grimgor costs, but Grimgor would have to hit with every attack, wound with every hit, and Thorgrim would have to fail all of his 5+ (due to S modifiers) armour saves, and 4+ Ward saves. If Grimgor doesn't kill Thorgrim on the first turn, he is dead once Thorgrim retaliates.

4 attacks (re-rerollable) hits on 4's. Wounds on 2's, does D3 wounds per hit, no armour save allowed. Grimgor has to rely on a measely 5+ ward to keep him alive from that beast.

I think Malekith is a bad matchup for Thorgrim, but Grimgor would easily die to the bearded monster.

Seon wrote:Caradryan. Cheapest most powerful hero in game :(

Thing is, he's a bit of a kamikaze character. He goes into combat with a big powerful ord level character (preferably with no ward save), his weapon will cause D3 wounds, if he actually wounds it, which is fairly unlikely. Then he dies, and the lord character gets killed by him, well actually it's actually asurmen who does the killing. Could we bend the rules and say Asurmen si the most powerful hero character....?

Lehnsherr wrote:I understand that the discussion has moved past lord level characters, but I am surprised no one mentioned Thorgrim Grudgebearer.

In a straight up fight, Thorgrim will beat Grimgor nearly every time. Granted he costs more than twice of what Grimgor costs, but Grimgor would have to hit with every attack, wound with every hit, and Thorgrim would have to fail all of his 5+ (due to S modifiers) armour saves, and 4+ Ward saves. If Grimgor doesn't kill Thorgrim on the first turn, he is dead once Thorgrim retaliates.

4 attacks (re-rerollable) hits on 4's. Wounds on 2's, does D3 wounds per hit, no armour save allowed. Grimgor has to rely on a measely 5+ ward to keep him alive from that beast.

I think Malekith is a bad matchup for Thorgrim, but Grimgor would easily die to the bearded monster.

That is a very good point. Maybe he hasn't been mentioned because there isn't too many dwarf players? I don't know.

If you wanted to address the points issue, you could include how grimgor *has* to take his retinue in a game, which adds a significant points increase. How many points is Thorgrim? If we assume twice, then grimgor + 28 black orcs would be a little under 740. In which case there's a good chance thorgrim would lose out to that unit, grimgor would still die, of course.

Though I think the points argument is irrelevant, as the rest of the arguments made here were with not taking points into consideration, so as sad as it makes me, Thorgrim > Grimgor in a straight up fight. (though he does have a good chance of landing 7 wounds in his first turn with hatred and S7 )

Actually Greenbay, Thorgrim would probably beat Grimgor and his entire retinue by himself.

He is LD 10, Stubborn, immune to fear and terror. He has 4 attacks himself, and his Thronebearers have 4 attacks. They can't be attacked mind you, but do benefit from the Hatred Thorgrim has. Alot of Black Orcs would be dying every turn, and they would be hoping that Thorgrim is rolling very poorly on his Armour and Ward save rolls in order to take him down.

His points cost? 780

There are not many characters out there that cost more than him.

That is a pretty steep cost, approaching malekith on dragon territory.

Is that the guy held up by the dudes and he standson a shield or something? I think he's the guy my cousin uses. We've actually had a grimgor vs him play out in a game before, black orcs did end up winning, but mostly due to a lucky night goblin flank charge to give net support...

Anyway, some fun sample goodness:

Grimgor + 27 black orcs with banner of butchery is around 770

thorgrim - 780

grimgor goes first, after rerolls has 6 hits (assuming 4s hit) and 5 wounds, 2 make it through
thorgrim's 8 net 5 dead orcs
the 3x3 in BSB attack with 12 S6 attacks, getting 9 hits, 6 wounds, 2 get through.

I think over the turns the orcs will win this, due to the number of wounds thorgrim will have to do, and if he blows all of his attacks on grimgor first turn (which would make sense) then that's even longer the rest live.

As I said earlier, I think the main reason he hasn't been mentioned, is he only gets 4 attacks (plus the 4 others, I believe at a S4 though) with a 780 point price tag? That seems a little steep...

Well, I am curious why there would be no challenge declared. If i was Thorgrim I'd be challenging for sure. No Black Orc attacks in the first round, and a nice dead Grimgor. If Grimgor doesn't accept Grimgor is now in the back.

He is not carried on shields. He is carried on the Throne. Massive model.

He might die due to sheer number of attacks over time, but any characters / champions in the unit will only be challenged, and subsequently destroyed giving Thorgrim a chance to win combat.

The next turn would result in a lot of dead black orcs, with very little wounds applied to the High King. 4's to hit, 3's to wound (if you are using Great Weapons). You would only get 6 Black Orc attacks on the King. 3 in base to base, 3 support. Black Orcs each only have 1 attack, so I do not see how you would get 12 attacks on the King. Even if you were horded (a rather silly thing to do with only 28 models) you get 9 attacks.

The banner of butchery is a 1 use item. So you get 1 turn of 6 attacks on front rank, and 3 attacks on support. Supporting ranks NEVER get more than 1 attack unless they are monstrous infantry. Even with 9 attacks, you are likely to only wound once after all saves have been taken.

Based on averages, you would look at 3 hits, 2 wounds, with a 6 Strength he would have a 4+ armour and 4+ ward. Likely no wounds. Again these are all averages, but even if you get 1 wound through per phase, thats still 4 phases of attacks striking last, requiring some luck on your part. The King doesn't need luck, he will be crushing your Orcs left and right. 3's to hit, 2's to wound, no armour saves. Even the Thronebearers would be tearing up Black Orcs if they (BOrcs) were using Great weapons. 3's to hit, 4's to wound, 6+ Armour save on the Orcs.

At 28 models you have 5 Ranks. You would be losing more than a rank per phase. You'd be testing your LD on a Steadfast 8, but thats hardly a sure thing. You might have 1 or 2 turns winning with static combat res, but that will quickly disapear.

The numbers just don't add up for Grimgor in this fight. If I was playing O&G against Thorgrim I'd much rather toss him a nice massive block of 60 night goblins, keep a BSB nearby and laugh as the 780 points of Thorgrim takes the entire game to earn 120 points of Night Goblins. Sending Grimgor and your expensive Black Orcs into that fight is just asking for trouble.

Based purely on average rolls (obviously we cannot do that, its random for a reason) the King would win that combat.

My numbers were from horde formation. You'll get one round of a challenge, against grimgore, no other characters in the unit, so rest of the time you're going against the unit.

I think your over estimating your severely limited number of attacks, does he have something allowing him to reroll hits every turn? or is it just the greenskin hatred he's going off of?

If it's just the hatred, then a realistic per turn death total from him and your groupies is closer to 2-4 models, that's 7 rounds of combat (8 including the turn to get rid of grimgor)

And, after looking at it, I'm not sure it's a sure thing he kills grimgor...you get 4 attacks needing 4s to hit, if you land 3 hits, and get a 1 on any of your to wounds, then there's a good chance only 1 gets past the ward save, and a 33% chance of getting the 3 on a D3.

I'd say it's about an 80% shot.

Well, he needs 4's to hit. First turn he gets to reroll those, so out of 4 attacks, he will likely hit 3 times. Of those 3 hits you will likely wound 3 times. You only need 2's to wound, so odds are 3 wounds, but a chance of only 2 wounds. Of those 2 wounds, Grimgor would fail 1 save, and possibly both. If you hit 3, he will likely save one. 2 hits causing D3 wounds per hit. Thats an average of 4 wounds on Grimgor from the King. The thronebearers also attack 4 times against Grimgor. They too would need 4's to hit, and could reroll. They would need 5's to wound, so likely they wouldn't wound Grimgor after armour and ward saves, but the chance is still there.

After the first round you are looking at 1 round of 12 attacks from the Butchery. Even if you wound twice during that round, you still have 3 wounds to go. The king has 7 wounds.

After that round of 12, you are looking at 9 attacks. 4's to hit, 3's to wound. So 4.5 hits per turn if horded. so average would be 3 wounds per turn. Armour save against great weapons would be a 4+, and ward save is 4+. After averaging those out, you have .75 wounds per turn from the black orcs. Assuming Grimgor wounded 3 times (which is above average) that still leaves you with 4 turns or more. Your horde formation would be gone after 1-2 rounds of combat. So your 3 supporting attacks from Horde would be gone quickly. At that point, you are actually averaging .25 wounds per turn. The king has 4 attacks, his thronebearers have 4 attacks. Thats 8 attacks (no longer rerollable) but you only need 3's to hit the Black orcs, and 2's to wound with the king, 4's to wound with the bearers.

Overall this just doesn't add up once your horde bonus is gone.

That's why I gave thorgrim the 80% chance to kill grimgor. It's still much more likely to happen than not. After the first round of combat using the banner, I'd imagine the best course would be a reform into 5xwhatever's left. Forcing you into a lot more rounds of combat, I believe attrition will win.

We'll say grimgor gets 2 on thorgrim then dies, leaving him with 5 wounds.

Next round, the 12 attacks result in 9 hits , needing 3s to wound, 6 wounds, 3 past armor, 1.5 past ward

if your round up, it's 2 and:
thorgrim will hit unit on 3s, so 3 hits (above average) and 3 wounds, plus his homies getting in another, for 4 total. End of combat, black orcs reform into 5x4+3

At this point, thorgrim will average 4-5 wounds a turn, which will take 5-6 turns to wipe out the unit

Thorgrim has 3 wounds left, and with the 6 attacks that's about 5-6 turns to take them out.

I still want to give the favor to the black orcs, as they get to throw more dice, meaning more average odds, one round of whiffs by thorgrim (which I see quite frequently from 4 attack models) and he takes a severe set back.

If thorgrim only takes 1 wound from the first salvo from the orcs, then the odds go in his favor.

Anyway, we're basically arguing in circle over something that will almost NEVER happen, as outside circumstances will play into how it turns out, if these two did meet on the field.

Most powerful hero character, especially for the points? Skulltaker gets my vote.

greenbay924 wrote:That's why I gave thorgrim the 80% chance to kill grimgor. It's still much more likely to happen than not. After the first round of combat using the banner, I'd imagine the best course would be a reform into 5xwhatever's left. Forcing you into a lot more rounds of combat, I believe attrition will win.

My Grimgor must be smarter than yours. Against anything beefy with hate, my Grimgor lets the unit champ take the 1st round, and would simply refuse combat after that, standing in the back and watching the rank and file slaughter the ancient dwarf high king in a few rounds of combat (I also like the armor piercing banner more than the +1 attack).

As for as need 2's to wound, you've only got about a 50% chance of wounding with all 3 hits. But really, Grimgor has a good enough PR department to know when to decline a challenge. Look what his PR did with that whole lord of the end times thing?


As for the Lord of the End Times, I've killed him with bat swarms. Once he lets the daemon out, his days are numbered.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

greenbay924 wrote:That's why I gave thorgrim the 80% chance to kill grimgor. It's still much more likely to happen than not. After the first round of combat using the banner, I'd imagine the best course would be a reform into 5xwhatever's left. Forcing you into a lot more rounds of combat, I believe attrition will win.

My Grimgor must be smarter than yours. Against anything beefy with hate, my Grimgor lets the unit champ take the 1st round, and would simply refuse combat after that, standing in the back and watching the rank and file slaughter the ancient dwarf high king in a few rounds of combat (I also like the armor piercing banner more than the +1 attack).

As for as need 2's to wound, you've only got about a 50% chance of wounding with all 3 hits. But really, Grimgor has a good enough PR department to know when to decline a challenge. Look what his PR did with that whole lord of the end times thing?


As for the Lord of the End Times, I've killed him with bat swarms. Once he lets the daemon out, his days are numbered.

-Matt

Way to miss the point entirely. In the scenario we were going over, it's JUST thorgrim against the grimgor and his black orcs, not a challenge situation. And accepting with a champ won't change the stats above too much (also note, I didn't pay for a champ.

Grom isn't too bad. He has a Chariot, which means D6+1 S5 Impact Hits on top his 4 S6 Killing-blow attacks. Armor save's poor, but he can then bounce between either a 5+ Ward or a 4+ Regen. Against Elves, his Killing Blow also gets the advantage of being on a 5+. While in a regular game I wouldn't field him, you can get something essentially as good for much cheaper, in special character vs special character the point costs and the chance of getting 2-7 S5 hits before the enemy strikes can't be denied.

Oh yeah, where does Crom w/ Shield fit into this?

"Anyway, we're basically arguing in circle over something that will almost NEVER happen, as outside circumstances will play into how it turns out, if these two did meet on the field"

I can absolutely agree to this Greenbay

As far as the war of attrition HawaiiMatt, without Grimgor attacking, in a 6 round game assuming at least 1 turn wasted in crossing the field, if not 2... no one would win anything as neither the BOrcs or Thorgrim would die within the remaining turns of the game. Considering the discussion is about "Who is actually the most powerful special character in the game?" I would hardly consider Grimgor to be the most powerful if he is hiding behind his Orcs afraid of a wee lil stunty.

Oh yeah, where does Crom w/ Shield fit into this?

Minsc, I'd love to get his full ruleset. I know his shield cancels out the magical effects of the enemies weapon, but what does he have in terms of other special rules?

He has two different weapon combos, he either goes 2 hand weapons, or hand weapon shield, which why he goes depends on his ability. The most effective way is the shield and hand weapon, as he would nerf both grimgor and thorgrim.

He doesn't do too many crazy things, if iirc he's fairly cheap, and a hero level character.

After all the times my cousin has used him, I can't remember for the life of me what his two hand weapons combo did...

greenbay924 wrote:He has two different weapon combos, he either goes 2 hand weapons, or hand weapon shield, which why he goes depends on his ability. The most effective way is the shield and hand weapon, as he would nerf both grimgor and thorgrim.

He doesn't do too many crazy things, if iirc he's fairly cheap, and a hero level character.

After all the times my cousin has used him, I can't remember for the life of me what his two hand weapons combo did...

Crom's actually a Lord, at least as of '04 Chronicles. WS9, S & T5, I8, A5. Carries only Chaos Armor, Sword, Axe, and Shield, so no Ward (besides Parry) and only a 3+ base save.

Catch?

For HW and shield: "If Crom fights with sword and shield he gets the normal +1 to his armor save for using a hand weapon and shield. In addition, if he fights with his sword and shield in a challenge, any special rules applying to Crom's opponent's weapon are completely nullified; in other words, his opponents always count as using a single hand weapon regardless of their actual equipment. This applies to both magical and mundane equipment."

He's 230pts, and any weapon special rules you have are immediately nullfied (which is good, since most special characters with something like Killing Blow get it through special weapon rules). At that point, he whittles down on them since he gets 5 S5 attacks most often hitting on 3's. A few enemies can make it up through special rules (Ex: Grimgor can be close due to first-round re-rolls, 7 S5 attacks base, and his decent armor save), but those who rely more on some nasty weapons get stuck in a dance-of-death until their unit is (at least the intention is) wiped out around them by Crom's retinue.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and his Axe allows him to make an additional attack for every wound he makes (pre-saving throws) in a challenge if he doesn't use his shield. So against T3 (or even T4) special characters...

Minsc wrote:

greenbay924 wrote:He has two different weapon combos, he either goes 2 hand weapons, or hand weapon shield, which why he goes depends on his ability. The most effective way is the shield and hand weapon, as he would nerf both grimgor and thorgrim.

He doesn't do too many crazy things, if iirc he's fairly cheap, and a hero level character.

After all the times my cousin has used him, I can't remember for the life of me what his two hand weapons combo did...

Crom's actually a Lord, at least as of '04 Chronicles. WS9, S & T5, I8, A5. Carries only Chaos Armor, Sword, Axe, and Shield, so no Ward (besides Parry) and only a 3+ base save.

Catch?

For HW and shield: "If Crom fights with sword and shield he gets the normal +1 to his armor save for using a hand weapon and shield. In addition, if he fights with his sword and shield in a challenge, any special rules applying to Crom's opponent's weapon are completely nullified; in other words, his opponents always count as using a single hand weapon regardless of their actual equipment. This applies to both magical and mundane equipment."

He's 230pts, and any weapon special rules you have are immediately nullfied (which is good, since most special characters with something like Killing Blow get it through special weapon rules). At that point, he whittles down on them since he gets 5 S5 attacks most often hitting on 3's. A few enemies can make it up through special rules (Ex: Grimgor can be close due to first-round re-rolls, 7 S5 attacks base, and his decent armor save), but those who rely more on some nasty weapons get stuck in a dance-of-death until their unit is (at least the intention is) wiped out around them by Crom's retinue.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and his Axe allows him to make an additional attack for every wound he makes (pre-saving throws) in a challenge if he doesn't use his shield. So against T3 (or even T4) special characters...

I miss Crom...

Thanks for the full rules.

I don't think Crom can take on any of the big guys discussed so far. Malekith, Grimgor, Thorgrim will all beat him. He is powerful no doubt, but each of those characters have something beyond just a magical weapon that could beat him.

Malektih riding the dragon - Horrible matchup for Crom. No need to really get into it, he is just a deadman here.

Grimgor - 7 S 5 attacks (rerollable hits on first turn), against a guy with an armour save of 3+ (5+ after modifiers) 6+ ward save.
Crom would need 3's to hit, 4's to wound on 5 attacks. He gets no rerolls, so 3-4 hits, average of 2 wounds per turn, giving Grimgor a 3+ armour save, 5+ ward save to nullify them. In return Grimgor hits on 4's with rerolls you are looking at 5 hits. He needs 4's to wound, so an average of 2-3 wounds per turn on Crom. Crom is dead within 2 turns on average.

Thorgrim - 4 S 5 attacks (rerollable hits on first turn), 4 S 4 attacks (rerollable hits on first turn), and a 1+ armour save 4+ ward save with 7 wounds. Out of the 3, this fight would last the longest, but Crom stands a better chance of killing Grimgor than he does killing Thorgrim. Getting through 7 wounds on a 3+ armour save, 4+ Ward save would just take too long, and the 8 attacks coming back at him would eventually kill him before he could kill Thorgrim.

He wouldn't be able to use his Axe against any of these guys, as without his shield he would be dead in the water. Grimgor would have ASF giving him rerolls in every turn, and S7 so Crom would have 6+ ward save. He is likely dead on the first turn.

Same goes with Thorgrim. No armour saves against his weapon, with rerollable 4's to hit and 2's to wound. Each wound would be D3 wounds, Crom dies first turn here too without his shield.

Looking at the rulesets for those 3 characters though, it is fairly interesting to see. I think in a straight up fight Thorgrim beats Grimgor, Grimgor beats Malekith (he might die to the Dragon, but he will get Malekith on the first turn for sure) and Malekith smashes Thorgrim.

Could someone post some of Archaeon's rules (one of the few codex's I don't have). I know we shouldn't be posting rules but for the purposes of discussion it would be nice to see how the Lord of the End Times would stack up.

**Edit** Lots of math mistakes made in this post, hence the edits. Horrible day for my brain.

Konrad Von Carstein is bloody crazy in combat provided you don't fail his stupidity

Yea, 4-5 attacks causing multiple wounds is pretty deadly. Too bad he is stupid leadership 6 with no magic powers.

can we use Kholek Suneater?

Archaon Vs Kholek
Archaon 2.2
Slayer of Kings backlash -0.3
Dorghar 0.3

Kholek 1.3

Archaon has a 50/50 chance of lasting a 3rd round of combat (and striking before Kholek means he'll win, Kholek will last 3
----------------------------------
I don't know what Malekiths saves are but Kholek ignores conventional saves, make the calculations to correct me.

Kholek Vs Malekith

Malekith dunno
Dragon 1.25

Kholek to Malekith 5.8
Kholek to Dragon 7.8
-------------------------------------
Kholek Vs Thorgrim
Thorgrim 3.3
Thronebearers 0.2
Kholek 3.8
--------------------------------------
Kholek Vs Grimgor
Grimgor 3.5
Kholek 3.9

he uses a D3 wound hammer that ignore armour and a 4+ save that would likely have been ignored by all his enemies attack

also a D6 S6 unlimited range Lightning Bolt. it will give him Frenzy when you're with 12". this wasn't included in the equation because if you're ganna blast spells then I'm gonna sit back and blast spells as well.

Malekith will strike first, and can potentially destroy all of kholek's magic items before he can strike, can you add that to the factor? Also, I don't have my Dark Elves book, but malekith gets a 2+ ward from either magical or non magical attacks (I think it's magical) and he cannot suffer more than one wound from a single attack, so d3/6 wound attacks only do 1.

As far as his output is concerned, I think he has 5 attacks are WS9 S5? So, what ever that comes out to...

I can't remember Kholek's stat line, but I do remember he is pretty scary from what I saw.

I also believe thorgrim's should be higher...the strength of his attacks are increased high enough to wound his enemies on 2s, plus his weapon does d3 as well. He should hit Kholek on 3s with first turn hatred, so good chance of 3-4 hits, turning into 3-4 wounds, then multiplied...

Vlad von Carstein is pretty badass too, 4+ ward save, returns to life on a 2+ and can restore his own wounds. He can re-roll failed wound rolls as long as the enemy pass a Ld test on a -3. -1 leadership for anything within 6" and +1 combat res, I think that's pretty awesome

Malekith gets 2+ ward from non magical thats why he destroys magic weapons so hes near impossible to kill after.

Kholek is pretty hard but malekith will destroy his weapon so he sits on a 2+ ward save and his dragon will get his attacks 2d6 breath attacks and thunderstomp.

Well, technically he won't get thunderstomp against kholek...as he's a dragon ogre and shaggoth and all.

Yeah my bad but malekith will do a couple wounds and render his attacks useless, and then the dragon gets 6+2d6 strength 6 attacks, or he could fly around out of his arc totally destroying him with magic ><.

What's Kholeks I, W and A?

His I will determine who would win between him and Thorgrim I think. Whomever hits first would likely win the combat as they both multiply wounds and ignore normal armour. Thorgrim does have a 4+ ward, and a boatload of wounds but multiple wounds (D3) would take him down pretty quick provided Kholek has the number of attacks to do so. I know Kholek wouldn't likely survive a round of combat with Thorgrim hitting him though.

His wounds would determine whether or not Grimgor would kill him in 1 turn as well. He wouldn't get an armour save, and Grimgor would get rerolls assuming an I of 5 or less. He would get rerolls on first turn for sure.

Malekith cheats. The only reason that Grimgor can beat Malekith is that he has ASF and can reroll on the first turn. Malekith wouldn't survive the 7 attacks with just 3 wounds and literally no save against them.

Malekith will strike first, and can potentially destroy all of kholek's magic items before he can strike

This is not technically correct. Malekith can only destroy 1 magic item per round. Problem is of course that Malekith's armour prevents wound multiplication. So you'd need to make sure you wound 3 times in 1 round, or you have a boatload of magic items. Thorgrim has a ton of magic items but with a small number of attacks, no wound multiplication, and the Dragon, he stands almost no chance against Malekith.

I dont think anyone can beat malekith unless hes lucky as you said grimgor maybe but meh who needs to get in combat malekith can fly and is a wizard.

Its definately not a maybe... run the numbers and the chance Grimgor kills Malekith in straight up combat is very high.

Low end of average is 5.5 hits per turn. That translates to 4.5 wounds on the first turn of combat. Malekith gets no save and has only 3 wounds.

If you are talking about strategy then the discussion about who is actually the most powerful close combat character becomes moot. Throw strategy out, put both guys straight up and see. The reason many consider Malekith to be so powerful though is just what you said. He has a dragon, can fly around, and is a nasty wizard on top of being nasty in combat. You pretty much need to be playing a 4k game (3750) to field him though. Thorgrim also needs a large battle to make it to the table, 3200 points. Grimgor however can be fielded in a 1500 game. Out of the 3, for his points cost, you get the most bang for your buck.

Lehnsherr wrote:
If you are talking about strategy then the discussion about who is actually the most powerful close combat character becomes moot. Throw strategy out, put both guys straight up and see. The reason many consider Malekith to be so powerful though is just what you said. He has a dragon, can fly around, and is a nasty wizard on top of being nasty in combat. You pretty much need to be playing a 4k game (3750) to field him though. Thorgrim also needs a large battle to make it to the table, 3200 points. Grimgor however can be fielded in a 1500 game. Out of the 3, for his points cost, you get the most bang for your buck.

This is by far the best post in the thread.


I personally have to say its Malekith (because to be powerful you have to be good in more than 1 phase). However if your looking for a pure challenge situation, then Grimgor has the advantage.

Grimgor Ironhide can dish out 7 S7 attacks with ASF.

That's... pretty powerful. Archaon can beat that, but he has the potential to hit himself.

IMHO, it's one of these two, or the Witch King.

Lehnsherr wrote:Its definately not a maybe... run the numbers and the chance Grimgor kills Malekith in straight up combat is very high.

Low end of average is 5.5 hits per turn. That translates to 4.5 wounds on the first turn of combat. Malekith gets no save and has only 3 wounds.

If you are talking about strategy then the discussion about who is actually the most powerful close combat character becomes moot. Throw strategy out, put both guys straight up and see. The reason many consider Malekith to be so powerful though is just what you said. He has a dragon, can fly around, and is a nasty wizard on top of being nasty in combat. You pretty much need to be playing a 4k game (3750) to field him though. Thorgrim also needs a large battle to make it to the table, 3200 points. Grimgor however can be fielded in a 1500 game. Out of the 3, for his points cost, you get the most bang for your buck.

It says in the title most powerful special character in the game where did you find only close combat from? Hence why kairos has been mentioned and teclis......

As the thread progressed it broke down into who is the most powerful in magic, and who is the most powerful in combat.

Its impossible to say who would win in a fight of Teclis vs. Grimgor. Teclis would need to roll for winds of magic, get his spells off, depends on the lore you pick, and so on and so on.

So you can't really argue who is more powerful in terms of a Wizard vs. a CC character. Thats generally why Malekith is considered number 1, because he can compete in both phases.

So comparing Malekith the wizard vs Grimgor the fighter is like comparing Kairos/Teclis to Grimgor.... too many variables to even have a discussion. At least when we stick to one phase we can determine who beats who heads up. Granted this would never happen in game, but the theoretical discussion is still possible. So we compare Malekith in CC vs. Grimgor in CC.

Once you move past a given phase, you have gone into strategy and the whole discussion falls apart. A single level 1 wizard with a dispel scroll if timed correctly can be the "Most powerful character" in any given game.

All in all against most, maybe not grimgor although his dragon would probably kill him, i think malekith is the strongest.

Grimgor though is the best for his points by far as we said where comparing him to 700+ point lords but his movement blows etc so it is going to be hard to actually come to an answer.

Grimgor>Malekith>thorgrim>grimgor

how good is Malekith at actually killing things in Melee? sounds like he just uses magic. and who chooses which magic item he destroys?

also, if Thorgrim has hatred then he would beat Kholek in melee.

and Kholeks stats are in the back of the BRB, all he has is a hammer that ignores armour and causes D3 wounds, a 2+Sv and a lightning bolt that does D6 S6 hits (with unlimted range) or gives himself Frenzy if you roll a 1 before the hits connect.

Malekith can still fly around and destroy them with magic, and agains an enemy such as techlis he would be in combat by the end of 2. No named caster could stand up to him. In combat he can still dish out some major damage because of his dragon and magic armor. Plus if he hits a normal unit he is going to slaughter allot of dudes.

Grimgor is by far the best for the points, but you need to remember that if you field grimgor you are required to field a black ork unit. Also Grimgor can only join said unit of black orks. He may fit in at 1500 but wont be competitive there because of that one issue. When grimgor is put into a sturdy unit his total cost is around 720. This includes the black ork bodyguard unit and grimgor's point cost. Depending on the player this can be even more and up to 1000 points. At this point you are looking at a game equivlent to the size of the game you would be playing when you fielded Malekith.

I would still take Malekith over this unit because of all the fun stuff he can do in magic and combat phase. If he can kill grimgore that unit wont have a chance, and he and his dragon will slaughter the unit.

Sure Grimgor is the best deal for 375, but there are so many other requierments to make him worth it. So overall i give the edge to Malekith because he can dominate every single phase (except shooting).


For heroes i would say Konrad or Mannfred form the VC army or Malus with an unleashed deamon as the best. For non named characters a Wight King is defiently best. For 75 pts you are getting a S4 T5 W3 A3 hero with LD9 that has magical killing blow attacks with heavy armor and shield. You could always give him the Sword of Kings and Nightshroud to reduce the enemy's initivive to 1 and take away always stikes first. He also will killing blow on a 5 and a 6. For 120 points that is one hell of a deal.

Actually, since Grimgor's bodyguard is a Special and can take up to 50% of the army's total point cost (or, in a 1500pt game, a 700pt bodyguard unit), he can still be fit into a 1.6K point game. The thing is that you're putting down 50-75% of your army, so the rest of your army is probably going to suffer. Say you take 29 BOrcs, Full Command (to prevent the typical "Unit Champion Challenges Grimgor" tactic), Shields, and the Spirit Totem. 869 points, so a little over 50% of the army down at 1.5K, but not impossible to field. Said unit can be boosted by a block of Boyz (not Big 'Uns) 30-36 big, one-to-two Night Goblin Units, then a few Heroes (possibly even a BSB) at the point level.

The catch is less that Grimgor can't be fielded in certain point levels (he can easily be fitted with a competent unit in 1.5K points, as I don't think anyone will argue 29 BOrcs & Grimgor is a poor-quality unit), and more that they won't often make up their points (How many armies can you think of that, at 1.5K points, will fit two units each approx. 430pts? That can be tackled one after the other by Grimgor and Co?).

And I think, one-on-one, that if you're doing non-named "characters" a Dark Elf Assassin is going to win most of the time for points-for-effect.

Grimgor's catch has always been "Can he make up his points?", not "Is he powerful enough?" He, on his own, is the cost of a regiment (a decently sized one), and must be bought with at least a small regiment alongside him (small regiments much less an effective tactic this edition due to Steadfast). Still, there is the fact that Grimgor can be a wonderful flank runner either on his own or in a small regiment (Regiment because then he can get a 4+4D6" charge once / game, on his own as Charge + Flank + Active CR = often enough to last at least the first round or three, needing only five kills / round to win routinely). Or, with new "Look out sir!" rules, run him alongside a regiment on his own as a smaller frontage "Chariot".

Beyond Grimgor's main catch, the worst thing about him is he's a very blunt character: He has no shooting, magic, or particularly underhanded tactics he can be used in. He's at his best when he's thrown into combat, and with M4 he often times can't catch other dedicated combat Lords (and if he can, they're often tooled for defense). It means he isn't watered down in what he does best, but if he can't be forced into what he does best he doesn't really do anything at all.

The most powerful special character in WHFB? A pygmy chieftain.





OK, in all seriousness my vote in on Malekith. Never once have I beaten him, and in the book he is always just badass.

He does have the best back story of all of them. I have also never seen him die. He is the oldest character with the exception of the Slann and deamons IIRC.

uhh, judging by these two articles:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Malekith,_the_Witch_King
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Lore_of_Dark_Magic
and his stat in the back of the Rulebook, Malekith doesn't seem that strong. I don't see why you think he'd be so powerful. Kholk can use his lightning even if you use Dark Magic, he is more than capable of ripping apart the Dragon without his Magic Hammer, hit 3+, wounds 2+ with 8 attacks (with Frenzy) and a with a flurry of attacks plus thunderstop he could easily remove Malekiths puny 3 wounds.

Melee Results, Kholek with no magic items
Malekith to Kholek 0.5
Dragon to Kholek 1.2
Khholek to Malekith 0.5
Kholek to Dragon 4.4
Kholek Thunderstomp on Malekith 0.5

I mean really, if Malekith can only destroy one Magic item a turn then there's a half chance something is going to get splattered by his hammer. and is his magic capability really that powerful? especially compared to say, about 2 or three D6 S6 lightning bolts before you get into range of anything, wait who am I kidding, the Malekith people think it's fine to just fly around and blast magic why can't I stand a mile away with lightning eh? of course, that only fun if the other guy thinks he's clever, which they probably do. of course, I'm missing something.

and for those of you who never got the BRB and just use the Island of Blood rulebook or something...
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
8 8 3 8 6 8 1 7 9

so yeah, about that Thorgrim thing. Thorgrim may have a 4+ Ward Save but Kholek has twice the number of attacks (with Frenzy) and a better Weapon Skill but lower Initiative, but like I said if it's only Melee and we ignore shooting attacks then Thorgrim will win.

The dragon gets 5 strength 6 attacks then 2d6 strength 6 breath attacks b4 kholek so howd you work out he would do 1.2 wounds ??

How can you thunderstomp something that's still on a dragon? Judging by the statistics you put down, it would take you two rounds to kill the dragon, plus maybe around another 4-5 turns to kill malekith (2+ ward to non magic attacks, so 18 wounds kills him). You don't think in what amounts to 6-7 rounds of combat, that malekith won't remove your 8 wounds? With little ease (casting word of pain) you'll be WS 1, so 3s to hit and 5s to wound nets 1 wound a turn from malekith, maybe two from the first round from hatred. The dragon in the first round will also net 3 (from attacks) plus 7 (average on 2D6) hits on kholek in the first round, resulting in 5 wounds. So that first round of combat, you'll take 6 wounds, next round they finish him off before he gets to swing again.

That's why people pick malekith over kholek...

malekith is the overall best
Grimgore is the strongest Close combat character
techlis/kiros/slann for magic
Vlad for durability
Green knight for survivability

Cost efficiency goes to Grimgore or the Green Knight

I put Thunderstomp in there becasue like I said, if Kholek still has his hammer he could rip the Dragon in two, I put it there just in case

so now I'll add
Dragon Breath 2.3
Lightning to Dragon 1.5
Lightning to Malekith 2.9

on a big table I could use that like what? 2 or 3 times?
but wait a minute, would the lighning attack count as magical or mundane? I mean, it isn't a spell but it clearly isn't a weapon...

If its not a spell, and its not a magical item, then its a unique ranged attack.

It would have to tell you outright that its a spell or he gets it from a magical item for it to be otherwise, which if I remember correctly, it does not.

greenbay924 wrote:Malekith will strike first, and can potentially destroy all of kholek's magic items before he can strike, can you add that to the factor? Also, I don't have my Dark Elves book, but malekith gets a 2+ ward from either magical or non magical attacks (I think it's magical) and he cannot suffer more than one wound from a single attack, so d3/6 wound attacks only do 1.

As far as his output is concerned, I think he has 5 attacks are WS9 S5? So, what ever that comes out to...

I can't remember Kholek's stat line, but I do remember he is pretty scary from what I saw.

Malekith only has a 25% chance of taking out the starcrusher. +4 to destroy something, then randomize between the starcrusher and the armor of the storm. Malekith needs to get the starcrusher mace or he is going to lose his puny 3 wounds to Kholek's 7 S8 attacks(not even counting the d3 wounds, because that does not work for Malekith).

EDIT: Malekith also has to land a hit on Kholek. They are of equal WS. If Malekith fluffs his attacks, then the destroyer does not work.

Malekith has four attacks. So, that's 4 to hit with re-rolls and then a 4 to destroy kholek's hammer. So, on average, he'll hit three times and then destroy kholek's hammer, one and a half times, though one is all he needs. True malekith may only have 4 S5 attacks, but he now has a 2+ ward and a big dragon with, if you want it, 12 S6 attacks and 2D6 S4 attacks. Pretty nasty if you ask me. And lets not forget that he may weaken Kholek with magic, or lower kholek's WS and therefore hit on 3s, before the inital fight.

Wooo go malekith! This discussion has made me convince myself to include malekith in my army at some point

Malekith's dragons breath weapon is only S4 (not S6). The dragons stomp is S6, which he can't use against other monsters.

My choice for all arounder is Galrauch. Seriously, once a game, make a breathe attack that causes models hit to take a toughness test or die without a save of any kind.
So if you don't do 6 wounds before init 6, you'll be taking 2D6 toughness tests, and you'll die if you fail any.
On average, that kills Grimgor, Malekith and his dragon, or just about anyone else brought up here.

Gal, still has his other 2 breath weapons, for the next two rounds of combat...

At 616, he's just cheap enough to squeeze into a 2500 point game, AND he's a level 4 caster, with +5 to cast.

You would want to keep a BSB nearby, so he doesn't thump himself.

-Matt

Eldar Own wrote:Malekith has four attacks. So, that's 4 to hit with re-rolls and then a 4 to destroy kholek's hammer. So, on average, he'll hit three times and then destroy kholek's hammer, one and a half times, though one is all he needs.

You only roll once for the Destroyer, reguardless of how many hits Malekith causes. Then you have to randomise, you don't pick which item is destroyed. 25% to take out the Starcrusher.

Lets discuss the best hero choice now, im going to say Konrad, Mannfred, or Malus.

Chakax, 4 S7 attacks, opponents strike last, and lose their magic weapon. T5 4+ armor 5+ ward is decent, and will down either of the fighting heroes you listed.
But, he's stupidly expensive.

Caradryan on the other hand, is cheap, has 3 S5 D3 wounding attacks that always strike first, and comes with 4+ ward and MR 3. Should you kill him, he does D6 wounds with no armor save. At 175 points, I don't think he can be beat.

Shadowblade is pretty good, if you can time the potion of strength right. Drink it on your opponents turn when they charge, and you get 3 BS10 S8 rending star shots, followed up with 4 S7 killing blow attacks. But, at 300 points, he's a little steep for a one hit wonder.

Blue Scribe for 81 points? Hard to beat that.

-Matt

Everyone's talking about Malekith on a dragon. I don't have the DE book anymore, but I thought you could take him in a chariot for a lower cost? This would mean you could include him in a lower points value game.

Anyway, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Tretch Craventail. Oh wait...

Do lizardmen win a prize for having a book full of the *Worst* special characters?

HawaiiMatt wrote:Malekith's dragons breath weapon is only S4 (not S6). The dragons stomp is S6, which he can't use against other monsters.

My choice for all arounder is Galrauch. Seriously, once a game, make a breathe attack that causes models hit to take a toughness test or die without a save of any kind.
So if you don't do 6 wounds before init 6, you'll be taking 2D6 toughness tests, and you'll die if you fail any.
On average, that kills Grimgor, Malekith and his dragon, or just about anyone else brought up here.

Gal, still has his other 2 breath weapons, for the next two rounds of combat...

At 616, he's just cheap enough to squeeze into a 2500 point game, AND he's a level 4 caster, with +5 to cast.

You would want to keep a BSB nearby, so he doesn't thump himself.

-Matt

Wow, that guy's good! Who is he?

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:Malekith has four attacks. So, that's 4 to hit with re-rolls and then a 4 to destroy kholek's hammer. So, on average, he'll hit three times and then destroy kholek's hammer, one and a half times, though one is all he needs.

You only roll once for the Destroyer, reguardless of how many hits Malekith causes. Then you have to randomise, you don't pick which item is destroyed. 25% to take out the Starcrusher.

Ah, i suppose this is true, but there's still a chance this will happen, and malekith still has his dragon and his magic.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Caradryan on the other hand, is cheap, has 3 S5 D3 wounding attacks that always strike first, and comes with 4+ ward and MR 3. Should you kill him, he does D6 wounds with no armor save. At 175 points, I don't think he can be beat.

Yeah, looking at the fact that Caradyran causes D6 wounds with no awmour save to any character who kills caradyran, then he is up there wilth the top characters. If he gets into a fight with one of the big scary guys we've mentioned he could still possibly cause D3 wounds with his ASF and high WS, and finally he would cause D6 when he dies (which unfortuantely, he probably will). Unless the character has either loads of wounds or a very good ward save he's likely going to die along with caradyran.

Eldar Own wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Wow, that guy's good! Who is he?

He is a chaos dragon in the Warriors of Chaos book, one of them two headed kind.

I absolutly love The Changeling, Blue Scribes. Cheap and Effective.

Ok its been a while since I played Fantasy WH but I never go wrong with a Britonian General on a Great Dragon or Pegasus with a Great Artifact weapon...1-3 Edition here...But my tuffest Char I was ever up against was a Vampire Count forget his name. He tabled me in 6 turns and his undead were totally awsome....

@lordwaynne- Are you thinking of nagash? who i have been told is the strongest character ever? im not sure if its true its been a while since i have played fantasy.

The strongest i thought was grimgor for the longest time i was told that and now kairos is pretty dam strong, i always thought maybe imirik was pretty strong but hes not around anymore, and i dont think he was hero more a lord.

xVoid

WarWizard91 wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Wow, that guy's good! Who is he?

He is a chaos dragon in the Warriors of Chaos book, one of them two headed kind.

Nice. So he's not exactly a guy, he's a dragon.

Did i hear someone say the Changeling? That's cheating because it's not actually him who is the best character, it's his opponent.

Malekith on black dragon

Im thinking shadowblade master of the assassins of the dark elves is the strongest stat line i mean

M WS BS S T W I A LD
6 10 10 4 3 2 10 3 10

T3 means any character her will eaisily kill him, The only thing in his favor is ASF and I 10 other than that he is an easy kill if he doesnt kill the other character first.

UNREALPwnage wrote:T3 means any character her will eaisily kill him, The only thing in his favor is ASF and I 10 other than that he is an easy kill if he doesnt kill the other character first.

I agree. Shadowblade is basically an assassin that can kill almost anything, but the there's a lot of things that can easily kill him, that's what lets him down in the 'most powerful character' rankings.

Has to be Vlad von Carstien. The fact he comes back to life on a 2+, for every wound his sword makes he or his unit gain a wound back, a 4+ ward save. Enemys with in 6" are Ld-1, his unit is +1 combat res and he gets re-roll wounds on one model if it fails a Ld test at -3.

Godlike... I think so

He is realy good, but he only comes back if there is a unit not in combat for him to be placed in, if we are talking strait up characters Malakieth is the best. Plus he can destroy the von carstien ring. They all you are left with is 3 wounds and heavy armor.

Actually i made a chaos lord with a -2+ armour save, a 5+ ward save, regeneration and favour of the gods for 375 pts

Vlad von carstein- last time I checked 4+ ward, regenerate plus a beasty stat line with all the von carstein powers

favourite though is krell (I've killed Karl Franz with him!)

It's such a shame that Tyrion's been nerfed.

He deserves to be up there alongside Teclis.

for the good side
Load Kroak
he owns at magic he's even better than teclis

for the bad side
kiros fate weaver
he knows every single spell you can use

Valtan on his Elven Steed from the Storm of Chaos campaigns?

I've heard about some really over-powered abilities of his (such as his pass a leaderhsip test and be resurrected with 1 Wound). Though, mind you I don't know if he is still technically legal or if his rules apply to this discussion.

Valten didn't get such against either Killing Blow or being killed due to being Run Down, if I recall right.

His issue was more the whole "Four attacks that auto-wound with no-save and cause D3 wounds", which essentially meant "Do you have a Champion or Hero in this combat? Yes? Make your Wards / Regens, or here comes massive Overkill points for Valten". Of course, with new rules, combining him with something like the BSB and a Standard of Discipline could be down-right terrifying Ld 10 re-rollable? Ouchies indeed for putting him down without Killing Blow or Running him Down.

Lizardgod, sadly, in 8th, Kroak is not nearly as good as he used to be.

I'd say either Vlad or Teclis.

He's still the boss, it's his cost that drags ol zombiefrog down.

Shame, because that model is GREAT.

I consider using it as my second slaan when i get my force up to 3000+
It is a nice sculpt, and the skelly skink is too cool to resist.

Personally I like the Dwarf High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer But my lack of experience in battle probably intervenes here, haven't for example played vs Grimgor or kairos at all so I don't know what they're capable of... Guess I'll check them out But what would be the most interesting in my opinion would be a showdown of the previously called characters I would love to see them battle :p SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST :p


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Ok I've read the rules on Grimgor and they seem quite devastating for the enemy 7WS8 S7 atks with ASF rapes everything in his path, whilst he has a pretty damn good armour... insane

lord croak

he would all your magic wielding asses!

esspecly before he died!!!!

Given infinite time, Malekith on Dragon can just spam spells until Kolek dies...

But we are trying to refer to a real match with 6 turns to see who is the most effective. So infinite time is quite out of the question.

I AM.

6 Turns, Malakieth has the edge, he can just magic the hell out of you or crush you in close combat.