A slot has opened up for this tournament due to a cancellation. The wait list is now open. Anyone who is interested in attending this tournament please PM me ASAP.
Latest Update: Important Tournament information is now available below. If you are attending this tournament this information is a must read.
Spoiler:
Sprue Posse Grand Prix Tournament Information Packet
You are receiving this email because you are an expected attendee at the Sprue Posse Grand Prix GT tournament. Please read the important information below.
Location:
Dragon's Den Games is a store inside a store. The parent store is called Meltdown Comics and that is reflected on the street signage. Dragon's Den Games is located at 7522 Sunset Boulevard, Los Angeles CA. 90046
Please arrive on Saturday as early as possible for Registration. Round 1 starts promptly at 11:00 AM. Late attendees who are absent at the beginning of each round may be given a game loss. Please respect your fellow competitors and arrive to the tournament and subsequent rounds on time and ready to play. Players are responsible for their own models, dice, templates and behavior. Note there is no lunch break on Sunday. Please plan accordingly.
Army Lists:
A typed or legibly handwritten army list is expected along with your Saturday registration and check in. No Exceptions.
Parking:
Dragon's Den does not have a complementary parking lot. So please take time to locate a free parking space OR be willing to pay for the privilidge. Metered street parking is available around the store. It is FREE on Sundays only. Metered parking is also available behind the store in a lot. It is NOT FREE on Sundays. You may be able to locate free parking in the adjacent neighborhoods if you are willing to walk a bit. Keep in mind some neighborhood parking is permit only. Please pay attention to all posted parking signs so you don't get a ticket.
Refunds:
The last day to cancel for a full refund is Thursday, January 13th, 2011. Cancellations after that date are non-refundable.
Additional information about tournament details can be found at the following link:
If you have any other questions you can contact me by replying to this email: markemn@yahoo.com
Regards,
Mark Maun
Sprue Posse Gaming Club
www.chaoswins.com
Update: This event is sold out! If you want to be placed on the alternate list in case of cancellations please PM me.
I've finally secured a location for this 24 slot mini GT! Details about this event are here.
You can purchase tickets using paypal on my blog or in person at Dragon's Den Games where the event is being held. There are only 24 slots for this event so please sign up as soon as possible if you are interested in attending.
We've been running these events on a smaller scale for a year now with a lot of success and this is our first two day event so I'm really excited about it. We expect the prize pool to be quite generous for this event, somewhere in the neighborhood of over $500. I'll have more details on that as soon as possible.
Awards will be given to best general and best painted. Also, the Best General at this event wins an invitation to the NOVA invitational and a shot at their $1000 prize pool.
If you have any questions about the format please don't hesitate to ask me on my blog or in this thread.
I look forward to seeing everyone at the the most competitive 40k tournament event on the West Coast!
UPDATE:
Since we've added more info I thought I'd help consolidate it all here. It's also available at the link above of course but if you want it ala carte:
Count me in. Perfect timing too since that could actually lead to 3 GT's in Cali in 3 months. And possibly even 3 that I could attend assuming the Broadside fixes it's issues in time.
And I was not aware that MLK has a big holiday tradition were you hang out with family like Thanksgiving. Heck, it does not even have the linen sales like Presidents Day.
A 2 day tournament kills your whole weekend. If you have a holiday you have one extra day to recover or get some things done, or to hang out with that loved one you ignored for 2 days.
Also if you have people coming from out of town like the Bay Area it is better to hold it on a holiday weekend, and it gives them one day to check out Hollywood or travel.
It looks like tournaments are common on the holidays in LA. You have the Broadside Bash on Presidents Day, the So Cal Slaughter is moving to Memorial Day, and the So Cal Smackdown on Labor Day.
And I was not aware that MLK has a big holiday tradition were you hang out with family like Thanksgiving. Heck, it does not even have the linen sales like Presidents Day.
A 2 day tournament kills your whole weekend. If you have a holiday you have one extra day to recover or get some things done, or to hang out with that loved one you ignored for 2 days.
Also if you have people coming from out of town like the Bay Area it is better to hold it on a holiday weekend, and it gives them one day to check out Hollywood or travel.
It looks like tournaments are common on the holidays in LA. You have the Broadside Bash on Presidents Day, the So Cal Slaughter is moving to Memorial Day, and the So Cal Smackdown on Labor Day.
It's not about holiday tradition, it's just having that extra day. Some families like to vacation on those weekends and that means 40k isn't an option.
I do agree that having it on a three day weekend is better for some. I just don't think it's better for the majority.
Hotels usually give discounts on Holiday weekends for event organizers. That's why some GT's hold their tournaments on those dates; it's cheaper. The point is moot as either way our date was what we could arrange with the store that this event is being held at. Holding it on MLK weekend wasn't an option for us.
you travel through TIME for christmas?! that is crazy.
I think I'll be in on this one. Theoretically I'll have a new assembled 2k army for the invitational...maybe it will even be a painted 2k army for the open! Or maybe I won't have anything and it'll be 2k points of Abaddon.
I'm not sold on the 1-day Ironman but I'm considering it. It'll depend on what's all going on since the wife might not be down for that much gaming time
But at least we have this to replace the hole left on my calender by the BSB if they don't do something to make it playable competitively.
I think you will find Ironman to be great fun even with only 1 day you still play 4 games in one day. This means you have an extra day free to do Vegas stuff or go home early if you want. The club has been running this event for many years and it has always been a blast.
Looks like it is going to be a good event. I would really like to attend but this is super close to my wife's due date... Hmm... 40k or be a good husband/father? We'll see if I can do this tournament .
That would be awesome! I still have not played you or Kevin Nash.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and by the way, a friend of mine brought an IG list to the last tournament we went to that was inspired by yours and damn near won the thing. I got a chance to play it and only pulled a tie because I went first, that is a nasty list!
Yeah, I've tweaked my IG pretty substantially because of that.
i was leaning WAY too alpha strikey, and i was noticing a lack of game when I went second. With dark eldar on the scene, and with people still taking way more darklight than they need to, it'll be a lot smarter to build in resiliency.
Or just play nids
I'm really excited about this tourney! Should be some real tough opponents all weekend.
Fingers crossed that I'll make it. I'll be picking up a ticket in December regardless to hold my spot and then if I can't make it I'll let you guys know a few weeks out so you can replace me and yall can keep the entry fee I consider it holding fee at worst or a event fee at best
Yeah between Reecius, Hulk, Shep and Blackmoor that will be a who's who of Western Region all-stars.
By the way this is an ELO rated event as tracked on our website. I'll be tracking both lifetime ELO and 2011 ELO. Unlike our RTT's which are a k-factor of 10, this one is a k-factor of 25, meaning major ELO points are awarded for each victory. ELO ratings are used for invitational tickets and pairings in future events.
Well that is certainly flattering but I think there are plenty of guys on Dakka that are as good or better a player than myself. Thanks for the kind words though! Either way, this will be a great, highly competitive event with some top notch players.
Kevin Nash wrote:Yeah between Reecius, Hulk, Shep and Blackmoor that will be a who's who of Western Region all-stars.
By the way this is an ELO rated event as tracked on our website. I'll be tracking both lifetime ELO and 2011 ELO. Unlike our RTT's which are a k-factor of 10, this one is a k-factor of 25, meaning major ELO points are awarded for each victory. ELO ratings are used for invitational tickets and pairings in future events.
Hulksmash wrote:I hear Dave knows how to play. But I think that's just a crazy rumor!
Some say that he sleeps with a codex under his pillow, and that his dice were tested in a college labratory... All we know is that he is called Dave Fay, and his marines have the plague.
I'm hoping to make it back to cali for this. We're looking at a 6 month lease out here in the cold white north but I might have the funds to fly back for it
Yeah, I have two friends that live in LA, was going to crash with them mot likely, but if you want to get a room Dave, just let me know and we can split one.
Hulksmash wrote:I'm hoping to make it back to cali for this. We're looking at a 6 month lease out here in the cold white north but I might have the funds to fly back for it
How many tickets are left Nash?
50% full now.
I posted the painting rubric on the website for those who are interested in seeing how we will do painting/appearance scoring.
I'll be updating the parent post in a bit to help consolidate all of the info.
I hope to make it out, but it is looking kind of iffy.
I was hoping to make it out for this event by going to the Ironman in Vegas, and then down to LA for the Grand Prix, but they laid off a bunch of people at my work, and now vacation time is tight.
Blackmoor wrote:I hope to make it out, but it is looking kind of iffy.
I was hoping to make it out for this event by going to the Ironman in Vegas, and then down to LA for the Grand Prix, but they laid off a bunch of people at my work, and now vacation time is tight.
Sorry to hear that.
Let me know your situation ASAP and we'll make arrangements.
Looks like I'll be making it out there too. This will be my first big tournament since the 2005 LV gt. Look forward to seeing all those internet personalities and bigshots!!
I reccomend ya'll wear nametags with your screen names so we can know who is who =).
mortetvie wrote:Looks like I'll be making it out there too. This will be my first big tournament since the 2005 LV gt. Look forward to seeing all those internet personalities and bigshots!!
I reccomend ya'll wear nametags with your screen names so we can know who is who =).
He was playing RB/ML spam SW in an 'Ard boyz game vs me, so no Hydras for him. He was also referring to my silly Holo field equipped Falcon that he couldn't roll higher than a 1 or 2 to pen =).
Chris, you just get lucky against my tanks! Rolling double 6 to pen a falcon when I tank shock makes me sadface.
This should be a fun event, though how many people are expected to go? I looked up the store and on googlemaps it doesn't look that big.
mortetvie wrote:He was playing RB/ML spam SW in an 'Ard boyz game vs me, so no Hydras for him. He was also referring to my silly Holo field equipped Falcon that he couldn't roll higher than a 1 or 2 to pen =).
Chris, you just get lucky against my tanks! Rolling double 6 to pen a falcon when I tank shock makes me sadface.
This should be a fun event, though how many people are expected to go? I looked up the store and on googlemaps it doesn't look that big.
The store has a gaming area in the back and a couple tables up front. 12 Tables total. A capacity of 24. Very large for a store but it's certainly not a Hotel Ballroom.
Yeah, Mortetvie's tanks just would not die! I was pummeling them with missiles, las cannons, assault cannons, power fists, and they refused to go down!
How many tickets left? Some guys form up north where I am gaming now are talking about going, too.
Bastard....I won't know if I'm attending until the end of December....Good job on selling out Kevin! Great job for a first event, especially a 2-day one. If you've got a spot on the first of the year let me know and I'll give you a solid answer as that's when I find out if I'm going to be working at the time or not
I know two buddies Frankie and Will are planning on going and Will has a ticket. Two other guys were saying they want to go, too. I will hit them up and make sure they are good to go.
Hulksmash wrote:Bastard....I won't know if I'm attending until the end of December....Good job on selling out Kevin! Great job for a first event, especially a 2-day one. If you've got a spot on the first of the year let me know and I'll give you a solid answer as that's when I find out if I'm going to be working at the time or not
Hah. I'll let you know. We still have tickets left btw. Not sold out yet. If anyone wants a ticket please don't hesitate to purchase one!
Doesn't look like he needs extra promo, but as a clarification to his initial post - the Invitational invite you can win at this is for an event with $2,000 in cash prizes.
OK this event is now sold out. 24 people have now paid and signed up for the event.
I have disabled the paypal payment option from our website to prevent overbooking.
This doesn't necessarily mean there isn't room for more people as I expect an occasional cancellation.
If you are interested in being an alternate for this event please PM me and I will add you to the growing list free of charge. In the event of a cancellation I will notify you of an opportunity to buy a ticket when it becomes available on a first come first serve basis.
Good luck guys! Glad it sold it out on the first go round. And a month early no less! Congrats! Should show that something like this has appeal. I look forward to the next one you guys put on
Kevin Nash wrote:I've updated the OP with important info for all attendees.
What's it mean if I sent money, but didn't receive the email?
Thanks for the update; that is some important information.
Some strange times involved for this event: 2:20 rounds, starting at noon on Sunday? It'd have been great (for those of us driving from the Bay Area) if Sunday started at 10; I just hope we can stay on time (5 min between rounds 4 & 5).
Kevin Nash wrote:I've updated the OP with important info for all attendees.
What's it mean if I sent money, but didn't receive the email?
Thanks for the update; that is some important information.
Some strange times involved for this event: 2:20 rounds, starting at noon on Sunday? It'd have been great (for those of us driving from the Bay Area) if Sunday started at 10; I just hope we can stay on time (5 min between rounds 4 & 5).
I dont think there was a email? Just a update to the front page.
Kevin Nash wrote:I've updated the OP with important info for all attendees.
What's it mean if I sent money, but didn't receive the email?
Thanks for the update; that is some important information.
Some strange times involved for this event: 2:20 rounds, starting at noon on Sunday? It'd have been great (for those of us driving from the Bay Area) if Sunday started at 10; I just hope we can stay on time (5 min between rounds 4 & 5).
I checked your email again Janthkin and It was typoed. Sorry about that. Please confirm you got my reply.
Sorry we can't start earlier on Sunday. But the store doesn't open until 11:00 AM. I had to work to get a special exception for the Saturday registration. On Sunday I'm spending the 11:00 AM hour setting up the terrain.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
italiaplaya wrote:
Janthkin wrote:
Kevin Nash wrote:I've updated the OP with important info for all attendees.
What's it mean if I sent money, but didn't receive the email?
Thanks for the update; that is some important information.
Some strange times involved for this event: 2:20 rounds, starting at noon on Sunday? It'd have been great (for those of us driving from the Bay Area) if Sunday started at 10; I just hope we can stay on time (5 min between rounds 4 & 5).
I dont think there was a email? Just a update to the front page.
I sent out a blast to all attendees this morning (except Janthkin whose email I butchered). Check your spam folder if you can't find it in your inbox. If you didn't receive it you can PM me and I'll send it again. However I just cut and pasted the email into this Dakka thread so if you're reading the spoiler at the top of this thread you got the info anyway.
Any questions about anything don't hesitate to ask me via email, PM or right here in this thread.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A slot has opened up for this tournament due to a cancellation. The wait list is now open. Anyone who is interested in attending this tournament please PM me ASAP.
Blackmoor wrote:Hey Kevin Nash, do you have a list of all of the attendees?
I do. I will post the full list on Friday in this thread and on my blog. I want to make sure everyone signed up is committed and I'm still sorting out a couple slots with some last minute cancellations and alternate sign ups. Once I have that finalized list I'll post it.
We still have one slot up for grabs by the way. If you guys know anyone interested have them PM me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make that two slots.
I've updated my blog again and added the paypal back to accept additonal ticket purchases at the click of a button. If you are interested in either of these two tickets please head over there and click "buy now".
Once they are purchased I'll be taking the button down again. Tickets are first come first serve.
All participants on the list have paid. We have ONE TICKET LEFT. If you want to participate in this tournament you may purchase the last ticket by clicking the "buy now" button on my blog and sending me 25 dollars via paypal. First come first serve. Once the ticket is paid for I'll be removing the button.
If there is some kind of discrepancy please notify me asap via PM or email me at markemn@yahoo.com
I'll see everyone on the player list next weekend. Please note the important itinerary in the OP of this thread as you prepare your arrival.
That is an excellent question. Most of the neighborhood around there will be either 2 hour parking without a permit or permit parking only. De Longpre may be open parking (runs parallel to sunset a block south of the location).
I am planning to go scout it out tonight or tomorrow but I don't have high hopes. Carpooling as much as possible is probably in order.
Kevin Nash wrote: Please note the important itinerary in the OP of this thread as you prepare your arrival.
Do you have any advice on where the closest free parking is...in terms of like areas to look for?
Not off the top of my head. The store isn't my normal LGS and while I've been there a few times it I'm still learning a lot about the neighborhood. I will ask the manager via email tonight and give his response here. You can also try contacting Dragon's Den directly and asking about parking options. They might have some good info: 323-436-6200.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and because someone asked. Yes please bring 3 objectives each. If you don't have any painted that's OK. I don't care if you use coins, casino chips, broken terrain pieces or grots. Whatever you want, just please make them uniform and identifiable.
Reecius wrote:Hey , Grimgob, I don't see your name on that list!
Yea, They sold out so I made plans to go to the Ironman in Vegas (and squeezed in a small RTT on Monday) before they reopend tickets. The wife gave me a pass but two is hard to come by, so I will only be stopping by for a little while each day to support my Sprue Posse friends in thier first GT. These guys are great guys and they put on a good event thats focused on fair but hard compitition. They also do it for the shear enjoyment of the game and its comunity. I'm really happy to see the support they have recieved and hope to see the event grow next year.
@Azgrim- One battle does not win a war (especialy a close one like ours ), and next time I won't forget to drop a whole mob o' boyz on the field . It was still a great game and I am looking forward to our rematch any time your ready buddy
Kevin Nash wrote: Please note the important itinerary in the OP of this thread as you prepare your arrival.
Do you have any advice on where the closest free parking is...in terms of like areas to look for?
Here was the store managers response:
"The best parking is on Sierra Bonita, the street that runs on the side and the connecting side streets around there, they are not permit and you can find spots, the blood bowl players seemed to do okay with it this weekend (we had twenty or so). At the meters you have to re-park every two hours as they have a maximum of two hours for parking even on Sunday. May want to tell people to avoid them. If they get there early, they should be able to find a street spot, especially if a few people car pool. "
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reecius wrote:
yakface wrote:
Blackmoor wrote:May the best space wolf player win!
You mean Dark Angel player, right?
If I had even a week more time to paint, I would bring BT or bugs just to mix it up!
Reecius wrote:
I hate to say this, hahaha, but of my 6 buddies coming, 4 are SW!
Man, that's just pathetic. I try to stay as un-jaded as possible when it comes to the negative effects a really powerful codex has on the hobby, but seriously? WTF?
Out of 24 spots we're nearly guaranteed to have 1/4 of the armies be space wolves and the likelihood is that the percentage will actually be higher.
It just makes me sad that the desire to win sometimes completely overrides the desire for uniqueness because one of the main reasons I always liked playing in tournaments was the ability to play against a bunch of different army types in a short amount of time and in the last few tournaments I've played in Space Wolves have made up 25% or more of the field. Its practically an epidemic.
I'll be sure to bring a tissue so you can dry your teary eyes, Yak!
But I feel you. Adepticon last year was half IG and Wolves! Not really, but it sure felt that way. A lot of it is the fact that people have their painted army that works for them and that is what they feel most comfortable taking. My Bugs will be done by Feb and I plan on using them a lot this year. My Chaos is also coming down the pipe and they will be ready for Adepticon.
Give it some time, buddy. It's early in the season and I bet that we will see more diversity as people get armies tournament ready with BT, DA and DE. It takes time to pain them up!
Yeah, I am strongly considering bringing a terrible tau army just to mix it up. I guess I could turn this army into BT or DA with just a couple quick purchases...it's not like it's close to painted hah, I hope I've finished priming the army before the weekend.
lambadomy wrote:Yeah, I am strongly considering bringing a terrible tau army just to mix it up. I guess I could turn this army into BT or DA with just a couple quick purchases...it's not like it's close to painted hah, I hope I've finished priming the army before the weekend.
I was just thinking the same thing (bringing terrible Tau)...although you never know how many Ork armies you'll get. Sometimes it seems like they're 2nd only to Space Wolves and then other times you only get 1 or 2. But for sure Tau are always on the endangered species list, so perhaps I'll rock them out.
All I'd have to do to get my BTs ready in the next 3 days is....paint 16 terminators, 2 predators, finish a Typhoon and dig up another cyclone missile launcher.
Reecius wrote:All I'd have to do to get my BTs ready in the next 3 days is....paint 16 terminators, 2 predators, finish a Typhoon and dig up another cyclone missile launcher.
Not impossible, but not easy, either.
If you'd stop playing playing games and writing batreps, you might get done faster....
MVBrandt wrote:I'm excited to see the results of this ... and the next West Coast Invitational recipient. Will you be live blogging it again, KN?
If I can find an internet connection in the store. I am not even sure if they have wireless. But yeah if they do then I will try to upload results when I'm not judging.
At worst I hope to have the results up after each day's totals. I'll post the army lists the following week.
Reecius wrote:All I'd have to do to get my BTs ready in the next 3 days is....paint 16 terminators, 2 predators, finish a Typhoon and dig up another cyclone missile launcher.
Not impossible, but not easy, either.
If you'd stop playing playing games and writing batreps, you might get done faster....
Haha, yeah, you got me there! But playing is so much more fun than painting
Kevin Nash wrote:If you guys are concerned about Space Wolves "Rock" I suggest bringing "Paper"
Even before I had this data, I already keyed my list hard against space wolves.
I've just started my own space wolves list, and was agonizing over which units would synergize and mutually support which other units, and then finally got a chance to play a series of three test games....
Thats when I realized that space wolves have virtually no synergy, its just a collection of threats all screaming and running at you, or all shooting tons of missiles/TL assault cannons/TL lascannons at you. the tolerances for misplay and sub-standard generalship are quite loose, and I think thats what makes them very successful and very popular. I thought IG was auto-pilot, but I think I found an even less challenging army to play.
I do admit that what they lose in stimulating in-game challenge, they more than make up for in raw coolness. Giant wolf-riding space vikings are just totally cool. Which exacerbates their over-popularity issue.
But back on topic. Space wolf players... if you want to fire a long fang missile in your game against me... Pray for first turn
Reecius wrote:
I hate to say this, hahaha, but of my 6 buddies coming, 4 are SW!
Man, that's just pathetic. I try to stay as un-jaded as possible when it comes to the negative effects a really powerful codex has on the hobby, but seriously? WTF?
Out of 24 spots we're nearly guaranteed to have 1/4 of the armies be space wolves and the likelihood is that the percentage will actually be higher.
It just makes me sad that the desire to win sometimes completely overrides the desire for uniqueness because one of the main reasons I always liked playing in tournaments was the ability to play against a bunch of different army types in a short amount of time and in the last few tournaments I've played in Space Wolves have made up 25% or more of the field. Its practically an epidemic.
Space Wolves is in abundance because it's a new codex and MEQ not just because it is powerful. Just because everyone brings a popular army doesn't necessarily mean it will win. Even then, if you know the field is bringing it, then I suggest keying you lists to punish them. Please see Shep's comment just above.
If your list is good it's going to table necrons anyway. In a Swiss tournament you can count on playing weaker players in the early rounds and more powerful lists in the later rounds assuming you are winning. You certainly don't have to bring space wolves, but I strongly recommend preparing for them.
Blackmoor wrote:If you can't beat Space Wolves, join them!
There is a reason I don't require painting in these tournaments, nor do I require you to send me army lists ahead of the day of the tournament. Go take a gander at the DE codex. Figure out which unit crushes space wolves. Purchase and Build. Add them to your army list. Win. Profit!!!
Hulksmash wrote:I'm assuming your running IG Shep? Could be fun depending on how you tweaked it
My ego never recovered from that seize the initiative you pulled on me!
In truth the way my list was configured before, even with second turn your long fangs were likely to weather the manticore fire and then win the game anyway.
I couldn't bear the audacity that you space wolf players have in just lining up across from IG and happily winning a shootout!
While I have weakened my game measurably against armies that vertically envelop, nobody is going to be outshooting me this time around.
It should be interesting, I will definitely be bringing a camera and I suggest others do as well to get some good coverage. Now lets hope the parking situation doesn't kill us all.
We might need to find a good lot a ways away and get a shuttle service via someone who has easy access to good parking at the event =).
Shep wrote:While I have weakened my game measurably against armies that vertically envelop, nobody is going to be outshooting me this time around.
I've yet to meet the IG army my Wolves couldn't outshoot! Now that I said that of course, I am sure I will see yours and me utterly blown away! Hahaha.
For anyone looking for a place to stay:
Hotel
Sunset Inn & Suites
Address
7370 W. Sunset Blvd.
Los Angeles (California), CA 90046
United States of America
Phone
+13238760330
Fax
+13239690620
is where Dave_Fay and I are. Only $76 bucks a night ($38 per person) and walking distance to the event. Parking is no issue!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to clarify, you do need to have a fully painted army to win best overall, right?
Kevin Nash wrote:If you guys are concerned about Space Wolves "Rock" I suggest bringing "Paper"
I don't know that there is some all encompassing 'paper' to counter Space Wolves because they have several different builds that do different things...and if there is, I'm pretty sure I don't have access to it with my collection of painted models (I don't enjoy playing with unpainted models). My Kan wall is definitely a counter to the Thunderwolf heavy Space Wolves, but not so much the super-shooty bulid.
But more importantly, you seem to have misunderstood my point. I could care less if Space Wolves win or not. I just think diversity in armies is more fun to play against. I would rather lose all 5 of my games to army types I rarely get to play against then to go 5-0 against five Space Wolf armies. Which is also why the 'if you can't beat them, join them!' mentality is flawed as well. I don't care if Wolves win every tournament from here on out...I'm just sad when there's a lack of variety in army types because I enjoy seeing and playing against different types of armies.
Kevin Nash wrote:If you guys are concerned about Space Wolves "Rock" I suggest bringing "Paper"
I don't know that there is some all encompassing 'paper' to counter Space Wolves because they have several different builds that do different things...and if there is, I'm pretty sure I don't have access to it with my collection of painted models (I don't enjoy playing with unpainted models). My Kan wall is definitely a counter to the Thunderwolf heavy Space Wolves, but not so much the super-shooty bulid.
But more importantly, you seem to have misunderstood my point. I could care less if Space Wolves win or not. I just think diversity in armies is more fun to play against. I would rather lose all 5 of my games to army types I rarely get to play against then to go 5-0 against five Space Wolf armies. Which is also why the 'if you can't beat them, join them!' mentality is flawed as well. I don't care if Wolves win every tournament from here on out...I'm just sad when there's a lack of variety in army types because I enjoy seeing and playing against different types of armies.
Too bad you missed Ironman then there were all armies represented.
Blackmoor wrote:If you can't beat Space Wolves, join them!
Not that it means much because of such a tiny sample size, but Space Wolves is rocking around a .423 winning percentage in our circuit last season (points/games). That's a total of 26 games played. If you throw out the top and bottom performances (Hulksmash's tourney victory and a guy who got a donut) it drops down to .394.
By Contrast an army like Tau has done very well around here, with a winning pct of over .700.
Does that mean Space Wolves suck? No, but it does appear to be the army of choice for players who don't perform very well in our tournaments. And as evidenced by the results, the army clearly doesn't pilot itself.
Too bad you missed Ironman then there were all armies represented.
Every army was equally represented, or are you just saying that the field was big enough that you had at least every army represented? Because I'm bemoaning the percentage that certain army types currently seem to be appearing at tournaments.
I would love for someone to run a specialty type of tournament where there are only so many slots open for each type of army. I love crap like that. One of my favorite tournaments all-time was a 'no-MEQ' tournament. I'd love to get off my butt and get some interesting tournament ideas like this organized...although sadly probably not while Dakka & INAT suck up so much of my hobby time.
Kevin Nash wrote:If you guys are concerned about Space Wolves "Rock" I suggest bringing "Paper"
I don't know that there is some all encompassing 'paper' to counter Space Wolves because they have several different builds that do different things...and if there is, I'm pretty sure I don't have access to it with my collection of painted models (I don't enjoy playing with unpainted models). My Kan wall is definitely a counter to the Thunderwolf heavy Space Wolves, but not so much the super-shooty bulid.
But more importantly, you seem to have misunderstood my point. I could care less if Space Wolves win or not. I just think diversity in armies is more fun to play against. I would rather lose all 5 of my games to army types I rarely get to play against then to go 5-0 against five Space Wolf armies. Which is also why the 'if you can't beat them, join them!' mentality is flawed as well. I don't care if Wolves win every tournament from here on out...I'm just sad when there's a lack of variety in army types because I enjoy seeing and playing against different types of armies.
I agree with that. Army variety is much more fun. I'm the kind of player who prefers different and interesting over conventional myself. MEQ spam can get boring.
What to do though? GW refuses to make a Xenos codex that really kicks ass and people like quality armies. I'm not sure what the solution is other than telling GW to spice it up a bit with their codex creation (no I'll never consider comp).
Kevin Nash wrote:
I agree with that. Army variety is much more fun. I'm the kind of player who prefers different and interesting over conventional myself. MEQ spam can get boring.
What to do though? GW refuses to make a Xenos codex that really kicks ass and people like quality armies. I'm not sure what the solution is other than telling GW to spice it up a bit with their codex creation (no I'll never consider comp).
I think one thing that can be 'done' as long as the local community is open-minded (I don't know if ours is or not) is, if you're running say a tournament a month, make 2-3 of those tournaments each year into something a bit more wacky, and make it clear that these tournaments don't count for the overall standings.
Presenting it this way also makes people feel more comfortable with having some wackier tournament rules, because they know its just 'stepping out' from the usual strict tourney environment.
So yeah, at these tournaments you could try some version of comp or even do something like I said about just making a tournament a 'no space wolves' tournament just for fun (just an example, of course).
Another comp idea I've thought could be fun would be player enforced comp. Basically you'd have a tournament with only so many slots open for each army type. Now here's the fun part: you have a public forum and players that want to play a certain army type have to submit their army lists via the forum. The players who get the limited spots for that army type are the ones who submit the army list using the fewest possible points. Players are free to keep 're-submitting' their army lists in kind of a 'bidding war' until you're left with people filling those spots with the least amount of points in their army that they still think they can compete with.
So if IG or SW are the popular army types then people will have to 'bid' to play with less points then everyone else or instead play with a less in demand army type.
Kevin Nash wrote:
I agree with that. Army variety is much more fun. I'm the kind of player who prefers different and interesting over conventional myself. MEQ spam can get boring.
What to do though? GW refuses to make a Xenos codex that really kicks ass and people like quality armies. I'm not sure what the solution is other than telling GW to spice it up a bit with their codex creation (no I'll never consider comp).
I think one thing that can be 'done' as long as the local community is open-minded (I don't know if ours is or not) is, if you're running say a tournament a month, make 2-3 of those tournaments each year into something a bit more wacky, and make it clear that these tournaments don't count for the overall standings.
Presenting it this way also makes people feel more comfortable with having some wackier tournament rules, because they know its just 'stepping out' from the usual strict tourney environment.
So yeah, at these tournaments you could try some version of comp or even do something like I said about just making a tournament a 'no space wolves' tournament just for fun (just an example, of course).
Another comp idea I've thought could be fun would be player enforced comp. Basically you'd have a tournament with only so many slots open for each army type. Now here's the fun part: you have a public forum and players that want to play a certain army type have to submit their army lists via the forum. The players who get the limited spots for that army type are the ones who submit the army list using the fewest possible points. Players are free to keep 're-submitting' their army lists in kind of a 'bidding war' until you're left with people filling those spots with the least amount of points in their army that they still think they can compete with.
So if IG or SW are the popular army types then people will have to 'bid' to play with less points then everyone else or instead play with a less in demand army type.
I think there are interesting ways to create handicapping systems to promote more diverse army types. "Necrons play free!" is another idea I've thought of. I'm not sure if I'm interested in running tournaments like that, but I do see the impetus to change things up every once in a while. 40k is a reality in that the most recent codices are going to get the most attention and MEQ is simply just more popular than anything else. It's what the players want, at least it's what they are buying. If I were to do some kind of restrictive tournament I'd probably just label it a "games day" and it would likely be more campaign oriented. Limited slots for each codex, as you said. My time and stamina is finite though. If I'm doing stuff like that then I'm not doing Sprue Posse tournaments. Maybe it's better left to another local?
For these tournaments I would encourage players to use tools in their codex to punish players who take conventional armies and units instead of waiting for the TO to enforce some kind of arbitrary comp rule (I know you're not asking for that).
I have not seen any lists for the GT yet but I'm sure we're going to see at least 6 different codices represented. I think that's a pretty solid amount of variety, especially when no two armies are identical. How wide do we really need to meta-game to be anyway?
Too bad you missed Ironman then there were all armies represented.
Every army was equally represented, or are you just saying that the field was big enough that you had at least every army represented? Because I'm bemoaning the percentage that certain army types currently seem to be appearing at tournaments.
I would love for someone to run a specialty type of tournament where there are only so many slots open for each type of army. I love crap like that. One of my favorite tournaments all-time was a 'no-MEQ' tournament. I'd love to get off my butt and get some interesting tournament ideas like this organized...although sadly probably not while Dakka & INAT suck up so much of my hobby time.
Out of 47 players there were 6 Space Wolves, 2 Blood Angels (1 was night lords counts as BA), 2 Dark Angels, 4 Space Marine, 5 Chaos Marines, 6 Orc, 4 Tyranid, 3 Dark Eldar, 2 Eldar, 6 Imperial Gaurd, 2 Daemon Hunters, 1 Witch Hunters, 1 Necron, 1 Daemons, 2 Tau. The 4 players that went into round 4 undefeated were 1 Space Marine, 1 Dark Eldar, 1 Tyranid, and 1 Imperial Gaurd.
I have run a couple of tournaments where there is only one of each army allowed. I supplied them and you randomly picked your army each round. It was a lot of fun but it is not intended for all comers, you have to be really good to play any army at the drop of a hat. (you only got 30 min to look over the codex)
Well, I'm not bringing Space Wolves. Me & my Tyranids, a Boy and his Bugs.
Of course, I'm stricken with indecisiveness over which list to bring, given how many Long Fangs, and how many Rune Priests, are going to be in the building.
I am tempted to just bring BTs and put some only primed models on the table just to mix things up. The thing is my Wolves are fully painted and look really good. I think I have a fair shot at winning a painting award. Plus I prefer to use painted models.
Reecius wrote:I am tempted to just bring BTs and put some only primed models on the table just to mix things up. The thing is my Wolves are fully painted and look really good. I think I have a fair shot at winning a painting award. Plus I prefer to use painted models.
Ah, we'll see.
I hope you play the army you feel most comfortable making a run at the generalship award with. If those models are painted even better.
And by the way, in our RTT circuits last year we saw almost every codex represented with the understandable exceptions of Daemonhunters, Witchhunters, and Necrons. I wouldn't really be concerned about a homogenized field here. There will be plenty of codex representation.
Yeah, I am 90% sure I am bringing my good old Wolves. I have been playing them the most lately and feel best quipped to win with them. I have found a list that is my list's weakness though, and I know a few guys coming with that build so that is another reason I am considering BTs as they are the counter to that list! Haha, I love the meta! It's fun just trying to outfox everyone before the tournament even starts!
I am sticking to what I know, though. Last time I brought a spoiler list, I never faced the list I was trying to spoil.
Either way, I am really looking forward to this tournament. It may be small but the very high skill level of those playing means it will be tougher than a larger tournament by a large margin. There are going to be few, if any easy games this weekend, which is great.
Plus we've got Yakface coming, Mortetvie, Manimal, Lambadomy, my buddies from NorCal will be surprising some people, Janthkin and many, many more. This is going to be some really tough competition.
Anyone know if the location for this event is usually warm or cold or anything? Random question but Now that I think about it, I want to know how many layers I should put on!
Reecius wrote:Plus we've got Yakface coming, Mortetvie, Manimal, Lambadomy, my buddies from NorCal will be surprising some people, Janthkin and many, many more. This is going to be some really tough competition.
Reese needs to be punished for my omission.
He needs to stop dodging me, and take his whoopin' like a man.
Reecius wrote:Plus we've got Yakface coming, Mortetvie, Manimal, Lambadomy, my buddies from NorCal will be surprising some people, Janthkin and many, many more. This is going to be some really tough competition.
Reese needs to be punished for my omission.
He needs to stop dodging me, and take his whoopin' like a man.
Nash, round #1, make it happen!
Reese needs to be punished for including me.
I don't know who is second-worst in this tournament but Nash, figure it out and pair them with me. Or at least find me a Necron player.
Now I feel left out completely....(Insert sad face here)but I dont think anyone would be gunning for me if I was playing. And Nash hook Mike up with a week player, I mean come on look at his pathetic standings in last years tournament record. 137 losses no wonder he started Space Wolves
I'm really looking forward to this, but I'm still trying to decide which army to bring.... guard, orks, or nids?
Guard would seem like the way to go, but for the orks and nids I can bring painted models, and prove to the people I played against in the sprue posse RTTs that I do actually have painted models.
My spies have come back to me with reports that at least one person is going to be playing with dark angels...
My spies = I'm loaning Manimal my dark angels army....
Beware the new boogeyman!
All kidding aside, they are actually kinda mean beans....
Rob, i think you should dark-horse it with your nids, you and janthkin can play spoiler to so many people who aren't ready for the speed. But then after saying that, you'll end up getting paired with dark eldar in consecutive matches.
Awesome. Congrats on that. Next year I'm a full time employee. I can take time off for things I look forward to hearing about how the event went and I'll mark it as my California event for next year (assuming you make painting a requirement since it'll be so far out....)
Though convincing the wife I need to fly back to cali so soon after the holidays is gonna be a stretch
Can someone link to me where this typo is so I can fix it?
There's no typo anywhere, I just made up a terrible record and put it in my signature to poke fun at the trend of people putting their Tourney records in their sigs.
Can someone link to me where this typo is so I can fix it?
There's no typo anywhere, I just made up a terrible record and put it in my signature to poke fun at the trend of people putting their Tourney records in their sigs.
Can someone link to me where this typo is so I can fix it?
There's no typo anywhere, I just made up a terrible record and put it in my signature to poke fun at the trend of people putting their Tourney records in their sigs.
I love you too Lambadomy!
Unfortunately I need to do it or I don't feel worthwhile so your just going to have to deal with it
Just a reminder there are still tickets available for this event. If you want to play tomorrow please secure a ticket on my blog: www.chaoswins.com and head down to Dragon's Den tomorrow for sign in at 10:00 AM. If you are afraid of paypal you are welcome to purchase your ticket in person at the store. First come first serve.
Can someone link to me where this typo is so I can fix it?
There's no typo anywhere, I just made up a terrible record and put it in my signature to poke fun at the trend of people putting their Tourney records in their sigs.
I actually realized this and was poking fun at you poking fun....and I won't stop posting my record until I achieve global domination!!!! pew pew
Thanks for the awesome tournament! Wow, what tough competition. Great event, we all had a ton of fun and congrats to Dave, he fought through some really tough lists. I thought White925 was going to cream him in the finals based on lists but Dave pulled a Dave and found a way to win!
I like the format and hopefully you get it so that you have 32 players and 5 rounds so you have one undefeated player. I think you said that you are going to do a few 16-man 4 rounders which is about the same.
I liked the missions. Nothing like the classics.
Complaints/room for improvement:
As you know I got a bye in round #4. When you pay you money you are entering into a contract, you pay $30 you get 5 games. You have people traveling from Northern California, San Diego, and of course me form Phoenix. Yes, I was 0-3 and I had no hope of winning with my unpainted army, but those where my first games with the DE codex ever, and so I wanted to earn all about what they army can do. There aren't any good players in Phoenix, and I need all of the practice I can get. Heck, I almost went to the Ironman Tournament in Vegas, just to practice for this one, so it is all about getting the reps in to learn the army.
Next time have a ringer or make some kind of arangement.
Yeah I had a great time too! I agree with Allan - next time award the bye for scoring and swiss tournament matchup purposes but have a ringer army there to give the person a chance to play - especially for those brave enough to playtest a new army at an event.
First, I'm glad I went - had some fun games, and got to hang out with some people I don't see often enough, plus play against a few people I've managed to somehow avoid in recent years. We'll see if I can get enough motivation together to put up real battle reports, but here's a few quick thoughts:
Venue: -It's a fairly new "store within a store." Their back area is okay for the number of tables involved, but I did get a little tired of maneuvering around the poles everywhere.
-They REALLY need onsite drinks. Given the very short time between rounds, there was no chance to leave the store to buy water. If the store doesn't want the hassle, then I'd beg the organizers to consider doing it themselves - grab a couple flats of water from Costco, and sell them to me at $0.50-$1 each. Hell, roll the price into the tickets, and just give them to people every round. Failing that, let us know next time that there is absolutely no refreshment on-site, and I'll bring flats of water with me.
-Terrain: With more time, they'll build up a better terrain collection at the store. As it was, only about 4 of the 11-12 tables actually had any LoS-blocking terrain, and most of those were 6" in diameter or less. A suggestion, shamelessly stolen from Yakface: if you're a TO, with inadequate amounts of LoS-blocking terrain in your pool, then feel free to simply declare a hill per table as being infinitely tall, or a ruin as NOT having all those open windows. The game is much more interesting if the players have to make real choices as to where to position their fire support, rather than having the full field wide-open.
-VERY friendly people at the store (both stores?).
-I wish I had known how little they kept in-stock. I try to buy things from stores that host events, but they had nothing I wanted. Had I known, I would have pre-ordered before I got there.
Games: -Missions were solid; a nice overview of the book missions.
-Time was too short. I understand that the venue put some time constraints on us for Day 1, but 2:20 was inadequate for me to reach the natural end of 2/3 of my games on Day 1. Yes, I was playing Tyranids. But I'm well over 100 games into my Tyranids, and this is the first event I've felt so rushed.
-I had 3 good games, 1 frustrating game, and 1 game where the opponent conceded on the top of turn 2 (owing to feeling frustrated by his dice & overall performance for the weekend).
Armies: -6 Space Wolves, out of 21 players.
-A couple really attractive armies there, which was very nice to see in a "painting optional" event.
-On the whole, very solid lists played by very competent people.
Results: I finished 2-2-1, so in the middle of the pack for generalship, and tied for 4 in the Renaissance standings. At the least, I can comfort myself that my Sportsmanship is better than Reece's.
Janthkin wrote:I finished 2-2-1, so in the middle of the pack for generalship, and tied for 4 in the Renaissance standings. At the least, I can comfort myself that my Sportsmanship is better than Reece's.
Hey! I am a pleasure to play! Ah but well done, buddy. You are a super mellow person to game against and I am sure you deserved beating me in sports!
I agree though, there should have been a ringer army. Will drove all the way down from NorCal with us and he only got 4 games in.
Also, I know the TO had very little control over this, but having the second day start at noon was a pain as it meant we were killing so much time in the morning and we had to get on the road so much later to get home.
Everything else though was great and like I said before, the competition was fierce! Not a weak army or player there, everyone was just about or at expert level. Good fun!
Somnicide wrote:Yeah I had a great time too! I agree with Allan - next time award the bye for scoring and swiss tournament matchup purposes but have a ringer army there to give the person a chance to play - especially for those brave enough to playtest a new army at an event.
I agree with that sentiment Blackmoor/Somnicide. We did have a ringer/army for those purposes on day 1 but we were a little strapped from a personnel bandwidth perspective. Somnicide, since you're concurring on the shortcomings with Blackmoor and you're part of our very gaming group that is sponsoring these events I'll trust that you'll put your words into action and volunteer to be the ringer for our next big event in case there is a bye and a player who wishes to play. Thanks for your support!
Janthkin wrote:First, I'm glad I went - had some fun games, and got to hang out with some people I don't see often enough, plus play against a few people I've managed to somehow avoid in recent years. We'll see if I can get enough motivation together to put up real battle reports, but here's a few quick thoughts:
Venue:
-It's a fairly new "store within a store." Their back area is okay for the number of tables involved, but I did get a little tired of maneuvering around the poles everywhere.
-They REALLY need onsite drinks. Given the very short time between rounds, there was no chance to leave the store to buy water. If the store doesn't want the hassle, then I'd beg the organizers to consider doing it themselves - grab a couple flats of water from Costco, and sell them to me at $0.50-$1 each. Hell, roll the price into the tickets, and just give them to people every round. Failing that, let us know next time that there is absolutely no refreshment on-site, and I'll bring flats of water with me.
Thanks for joining us! I'd love to read your batreps.
Good idea on the water. I'll look into haveing some for sale/free next time we hold an event there. If it's something we can afford I'll make that available.
-Terrain: With more time, they'll build up a better terrain collection at the store. As it was, only about 4 of the 11-12 tables actually had any LoS-blocking terrain, and most of those were 6" in diameter or less. A suggestion, shamelessly stolen from Yakface: if you're a TO, with inadequate amounts of LoS-blocking terrain in your pool, then feel free to simply declare a hill per table as being infinitely tall, or a ruin as NOT having all those open windows. The game is much more interesting if the players have to make real choices as to where to position their fire support, rather than having the full field wide-open.
We put LOS blocking terrain at every table but some were shorter than others. I do agree there were some shortcomings here and have already lobbied the store manager to improve upon that. Fair terrain is very important to us and we were trying our best to accommodate that with the pieces we had. I'll work to make sure it's better next time around.
-VERY friendly people at the store (both stores?).
-I wish I had known how little they kept in-stock. I try to buy things from stores that host events, but they had nothing I wanted. Had I known, I would have pre-ordered before I got there.
Yeah his stock was small but he was kind enough to offer to ship anything the winners wanted directly to their door.
Games:
-Missions were solid; a nice overview of the book missions.
-Time was too short. I understand that the venue put some time constraints on us for Day 1, but 2:20 was inadequate for me to reach the natural end of 2/3 of my games on Day 1. Yes, I was playing Tyranids. But I'm well over 100 games into my Tyranids, and this is the first event I've felt so rushed.
-I had 3 good games, 1 frustrating game, and 1 game where the opponent conceded on the top of turn 2 (owing to feeling frustrated by his dice & overall performance for the weekend).
I was of the opinion 2:20 was adequate for a 2000 point tournament game. I don't feel like that's short but perhaps I'm off base there? If that really isn't adequate time then I'll probably lower the point value as opposed to increasing the time, or the day becomes painfully long, especially with a lunch and breaks thrown in.
Armies:
-6 Space Wolves, out of 21 players.
-A couple really attractive armies there, which was very nice to see in a "painting optional" event.
-On the whole, very solid lists played by very competent people.
Yeah lot's of space wolves. They are indeed a very good army, I think straightforward to play, cool looking, and of course new. They did finish 3rd and 4th, but not first or second. I think the bet was that they would get 2 of the top 3 slots. They didn't manage to do that. Close though.
Results:
I finished 2-2-1, so in the middle of the pack for generalship, and tied for 4 in the Renaissance standings. At the least, I can comfort myself that my Sportsmanship is better than Reece's.
.500 in that field is nothing to be ashamed of. Congrats for placing so high for Renaissance man. Your army looked fantastic and you were doing a great job with rule clarifications. You clearly have a firm grasp of the rules and that's really refreshing to see.
I was goin to show up on Sunday with my army but I was under the impression I couldn't cause I was not in the tourney. But I did get alot of painting done only my new tanks.
Yeah, it is worth mentioning that there was a ringer on day one, but that plenty of our group wasn't available to attend or judge/ring... You know who I'm talking about!!!
Good idea on the water Janth... I always bring my own, been burned too man times by that, but it wouldn't be too hard for us to get a flat or two.
My personal experience with the time limits has been with no problems, I played a 7 turn game with ten minutes to spare and two 6 turn games with 15-20 minutes to spare. I know that moving hordes are slower than static hordes, and I know that a concession needs to be made to horde armies. But on the one hand there are complaints that there isn't enough time to get lunch/water, but you want longer rounds too. These stores that allow us to host tournaments do not budge on late night hours. They just don't. Our next big GT will be at a convention center likely, and I hope that affords us more time for rounds. But in this case, you got short breaks because the organizers of this event were already being as sensitive as they could be to game length.
And if i remember what Mark was saying Reece, the late start on sunday was also the game store's call. We had to beg for an early opening on saturday (they usually open at eleven). But they did not want to open early for two consecutive days. I may have my information wrong here, this is just my foggy recollection. but I'm with you. i like early starts.
The group is going to be making our own tables (32 of them over these next 12 months) and we're confident that once we have the tables we'll be able to rent private venues, and in doing so, will have a lot more control over start time, round time, and available food/water.
And also, keep the constructive criticism coming, we know you guys had a good time... (I didn't see any long faces at the end of the day sunday) but we also want to know everything that could improve too.
cgage00 wrote:I was goin to show up on Sunday with my army but I was under the impression I couldn't cause I was not in the tourney. But I did get alot of painting done only my new tanks.
Techinically you could have even entered the tourney for day two but you wouldn't have been eligible for any prizes. You could have come out for some ranked play though. Our system can accommodate that (it also accommodates only playing on day 1 as well).
I want to be the ringer if there's another tournament. I really can't handle playing 5 stressful games over two days. I am still tired from it.
I really enjoyed the tournament. The only thing I'm not very excited about is the sportsmanship scoring. Not only is it 1/3 of the overall possible points, just like battle points it's a 0 sum game. At most tournaments sportsmanship points SEEM like a lot, but in reality they're next to nothing because almost everyone maxes out. In this tournament, I had to choose someone to be last, and absolutely screw them in the renaissance man standings. I enjoyed all my games, every one of my opponents deserved 5/5, there was absolutely no discernible difference in their sportsmanship. I had to give two people what I would consider the equivalent of "you suck" sportsmanship scores.
The fact that sportsmanship only really mattered for two prizes (overall and sportsman) mitigates that, and every if everyone just got 5 points Dave would have still won overall. But if I had randomly chosen someone other than Dave first, Ryan gets best overall. I had very little reason to rate him higher than anyone else, it was a fun game but not obviously better than the other games.
And no, this is not sour grapes because I am apparently a jerk (2 sportsmanship yay!). I just think this puts a huge premium on sportsmanship for a large prize and that most people would have given all their opponents 5/5/ or 4/5 if given a choice.
Shep wrote:My personal experience with the time limits has been with no problems, I played a 7 turn game with ten minutes to spare and two 6 turn games with 15-20 minutes to spare. I know that moving hordes are slower than static hordes, and I know that a concession needs to be made to horde armies. But on the one hand there are complaints that there isn't enough time to get lunch/water, but you want longer rounds too. These stores that allow us to host tournaments do not budge on late night hours. They just don't. Our next big GT will be at a convention center likely, and I hope that affords us more time for rounds. But in this case, you got short breaks because the organizers of this event were already being as sensitive as they could be to game length.
Whoa there, Shep - I didn't ask for longer rounds at this point level, merely said that 2:20 isn't long enough for 2000 pt games. I'm fine either way - run 1850 at 2:15, run 2000 at 2:30 (or 2:45 if you can swing it). That extra 150 pts, for my Tyranids, meant another 19 models in the list to setup, move, shoot/run, assault, and for my enemy to kill.
1 of my 2 games that didn't finish was against Orks. There were a LOT of models on that table, and we were rolling a lot of dice. It happens. Another game finished a good 20-25 minutes early (against Daemons), and one finished about 2 hours early.
If presented with another 2k tournament with 2:20 rounds, I'll almost certainly choose not to bring Tyranids, and I'd expect Yakface will choose not to bring foot orks; whether that has any significance for the organizers is up to them. As I said, I had fun, and I'm glad I went. Everything past that is either an observation or a suggestion/aspiration for improvement, not a complaint.
Kevin Nash wrote:Good idea on the water. I'll look into having some for sale/free next time we hold an event there. If it's something we can afford I'll make that available.
Again, if it's not a task you want to handle, just let the players know - we can (mostly) take care of ourselves, if we know to do so, and are happy to pitch in & help with easy tasks like that.
I was of the opinion 2:20 was adequate for a 2000 point tournament game. I don't feel like that's short but perhaps I'm off base there? If that really isn't adequate time then I'll probably lower the point value as opposed to increasing the time, or the day becomes painfully long, especially with a lunch and breaks thrown in.
There's certainlyroom for discussion on the points/time ratio, and it's rarely something we have complete data on - I've got my 5 data points, and that's about it. But I've run into Yakface's Kanwall at a SCGWL event before with my Tyranids, and that's a game that would never be finished in 2:20. For me, it'll just be another army-determinative factor; I won't bring the Tyranids to another 2k/2:20 event.
Yeah lot's of space wolves. They are indeed a very good army, I think straightforward to play, cool looking, and of course new. They did finish 3rd and 4th, but not first or second. I think the bet was that they would get 2 of the top 3 slots. They didn't manage to do that. Close though.
The funny thing, of course, is that after worrying about SW and changing my army around, I didn't see one all weekend.
Janthkin wrote:Whoa there, Shep - I didn't ask for longer rounds at this point level, merely said that 2:20 isn't long enough for 2000 pt games. I'm fine either way - run 1850 at 2:15, run 2000 at 2:30 (or 2:45 if you can swing it). That extra 150 pts, for my Tyranids, meant another 19 models in the list to setup, move, shoot/run, assault, and for my enemy to kill.
I love my nids, and I do think that foot hordes bring a lot of dynamism to the metagame. It sounded a lot like Mark was leaning a little bit towards possible shrinking the game size a bit. Its good to hear that you'd be just as happy playing at 1850 though. I'm never sure how people weigh in on the game size thing.
Janthkin wrote:1 of my 2 games that didn't finish was against Orks. There were a LOT of models on that table, and we were rolling a lot of dice. It happens. Another game finished a good 20-25 minutes early (against Daemons), and one finished about 2 hours early.
That sounds about right. I played yakface at 1500 with my nids at an RTT event and we couldn't get anything done. I had fun, but basically 20 minutes into the game the entire board was just a number of highly complicated multi-assaults being resolved ad infinitum. With everyone else finishing comfortably in their time limit, except a couple of CC oriented horde players getting matched up, its just a flaw in the time limit method. I suppose its a risk you gamble on when you take that bigger army.
Janthkin wrote:If presented with another 2k tournament with 2:20 rounds, I'll almost certainly choose not to bring Tyranids, and I'd expect Yakface will choose not to bring foot orks; whether that has any significance for the organizers is up to them. As I said, I had fun, and I'm glad I went. Everything past that is either an observation or a suggestion/aspiration for improvement, not a complaint.
The tourney organizers absolutely see significance in that. Mark's only painted army is a big ole massive lumbering ork army, and when he sees missions pop up or time constraints pop up that hinder his favorite army unfairly, he makes a note. And Janthkin not playing nids, or Yakface not playing orks, would be as tragic as Bret Favre not playing for Green Bay.
It is a pretty safe bet that an adjustment will be made, either in time limit or in points size. And i know Mark really wants the feedback and the data, so keep it coming
and also my apologies if the tone was heavy at all in my earlier reply.
If presented with another 2k tournament with 2:20 rounds, I'll almost certainly choose not to bring Tyranids, and I'd expect Yakface will choose not to bring foot orks; whether that has any significance for the organizers is up to them. As I said, I had fun, and I'm glad I went. Everything past that is either an observation or a suggestion/aspiration for improvement, not a complaint.
It's of great consequence to me because the last thing I want is people not playing what they consider their "best" army because of circumstances like time constraints.
2:20 feels typical to me for a 2000 point game playing at "tournament speed" as opposed to "casual speed". However if it really is shutting our horde players then I probably am going to stay away from 2000 point games because increasing the round length isn't really a practical option. I'm curious what you would consider a proper amount of time for a 1500 point game, since we run the majority of our tournaments at that point level.
Kevin Nash wrote:2:20 feels typical to me for a 2000 point game playing at "tournament speed" as opposed to "casual speed". However if it really is shutting our horde players then I probably am going to stay away from 2000 point games because increasing the round length isn't really a practical option. I'm curious what you would consider a proper amount of time for a 1500 point game, since we run the majority of our tournaments at that point level.
I have no problems with 1:45 for 1500 pt games (though the RTTs I run allow 2 hours; my local group has quite a few novices).
It's a hard calculation, because it's not a linear relationship for points, but rather by model count - if it was linear by points, then 2:20 for 2k would follow naturally from 1:45 for 1500. But, at least in my various builds, that last 500 adds disproportionately more bodies - you still have to have your HQ, Elites, and Heavies at 1500, but that extra 500 pts means more (relatively cheap) Troops for many armies.
I may have to go ahead and make full-on movement trays for Gargoyles, as well as the deployment trays I use for all the other foot troops; it's about the only place left to speed up my horde game.
Great tournament! Had lots of fun and nice tables. Well Organized and good prizes given that there were only 21 people @ $25!
My only comment would be to add "battle points" to the missions. I.E. do Capture and Control, but make kill points secondary for a +1 (any number of secondary / tertiary objectives can be done, this one was just a quick example). I'd just like to see more spread within the standings that is player controlled. I realize the benefits of a straight strength of schedule system, but I find it more satisfying when I am in greater control of the outcome.
Shep wrote:That sounds about right. I played yakface at 1500 with my nids at an RTT event and we couldn't get anything done. I had fun, but basically 20 minutes into the game the entire board was just a number of highly complicated multi-assaults being resolved ad infinitum. With everyone else finishing comfortably in their time limit, except a couple of CC oriented horde players getting matched up, its just a flaw in the time limit method. I suppose its a risk you gamble on when you take that bigger army.
There's an important point hidden in your statement there - Assault slows the game down, because it is highly interactive, and both players are acting in each assault phase. (Contrast with an IG shooting phase, which will also involve absurd numbers of dice, but happens only once per game turn.)
I'm curious how a jumppack-based BA army would do in that time frame - they have a slightly lower model count, but more complicated wound allocation/reroll dynamics than most foot hordes. All genestealers are created equal, but there are 4-5 wound "buckets" in that BA assault squad w/attached Priest.
The thing that gets a bit annoying for those of us who take the hit and take smaller elite armies is that we end up either waiting around for 45 minutes or when we play against horde armies that the horde player are rushing us even though we only play for about 35-40% of the amount of time.
There is no 100% solution to this sort of thing. I think the best way to look at it is by a bell curve. Drop the first game or two done and the last game or two done and see if everyone else was able to finish their game in a comfortable amount of time. If so, then the game time was probably about right, if not then there needs to be more time.
Just my thoughts on the matter. Kevin Nash, did you keep track of how many games had to be called prematurely due to time? If so, what round they were on? I think that data point should be collected.
Somnicide wrote:The thing that gets a bit annoying for those of us who take the hit and take smaller elite armies is that we end up either waiting around for 45 minutes or when we play against horde armies that the horde player are rushing us even though we only play for about 35-40% of the amount of time.
There is no 100% solution to this sort of thing. I think the best way to look at it is by a bell curve. Drop the first game or two done and the last game or two done and see if everyone else was able to finish their game in a comfortable amount of time. If so, then the game time was probably about right, if not then there needs to be more time.
Just my thoughts on the matter. Kevin Nash, did you keep track of how many games had to be called prematurely due to time? If so, what round they were on? I think that data point should be collected.
I didn't keep a running tally but from memory I'd say approx 1-2 of 10 games went to time each round. So you're looking at roughly 15% of the field, which is a distinct minority.
Normally I'd just come back with "play faster" but Janthkin does have a point that short rounds can be biased against horde armies and I want all types of army variations represented in our tournaments. I don't want someone taking a low model count army just because of time considerations. I absolutely want to see as many tyranid and ork swarm lists as possible, because there is certainly no shortage of MEQ vehicle spam.
I think the easiest way to meet in the middle here is to play smaller games. That way if the elite army players finish their games early, there is still less total waiting around time for the round to finish.
For our RTT's we do 1:45 / 1500 anyway so running a lower point total is nothing new for us. I don't really have to make a firm decision on this for a while but at this point I'm leaning towards 1:45 / 1500 for next years GT as well.
Somnicide wrote:The thing that gets a bit annoying for those of us who take the hit and take smaller elite armies is that we end up either waiting around for 45 minutes or when we play against horde armies that the horde player are rushing us even though we only play for about 35-40% of the amount of time.
Interesting phrasing - are you taking a "hit" for bringing a smaller elite army and/or a fully meched-up army? They're obviously pretty competitive, given the general trend of tournament results since 5e came out. Would you rather be playing a horde army, and just chose not to because of time? If so, that's something TO's should know, too.
For that matter, it's not even a LOT more time that was needed - 10 more minutes (2:30 rounds) would have allowed for a Turn 6 in both games, with potentially significant effect on the outcome of the game; in a tournament that was effectively a single-elimination event, a change in outcome in round 2 or 3 is meaningful.
Part of the question is simply whether slower-playing armies are valuable enough to the metagame that an individual TO wishes to account for it in the schedule. For me, this event was a significant outlier - I've never been time-limited in 40% of my tournament games before, and so I wanted to say something. It sparked some interesting conversation.
There is no 100% solution to this sort of thing. I think the best way to look at it is by a bell curve. Drop the first game or two done and the last game or two done and see if everyone else was able to finish their game in a comfortable amount of time. If so, then the game time was probably about right, if not then there needs to be more time.
Given a large enough data set, that'd be a good approach. Adepticon is going to track that this year; I look forward to their results.
Kevin Nash wrote:For our RTT's we do 1:45 / 1500 anyway so running a lower point total is nothing new for us. I don't really have to make a firm decision on this for a while but at this point I'm leaning towards 1:45 / 1500 for next years GT as well.
This would be awesome, and fairly unique on the circuit. As I recall, you're looking at a dedicated venue next year; with 1:45 rounds, and no late opening/early closing time constraints, you could easily do 4/3 (7 total games), which would be a lot of fun. And lists look so much different at 1500; you have to make some hard choices in what to bring.
Alternatively, something else no one ever seems to do is an escalation tournament - run Day 1 as 4x1500, and Day 2 as 2x2000 (same codex), and see what happens!
Somnicide wrote:The thing that gets a bit annoying for those of us who take the hit and take smaller elite armies is that we end up either waiting around for 45 minutes or when we play against horde armies that the horde player are rushing us even though we only play for about 35-40% of the amount of time.
Interesting phrasing - are you taking a "hit" for bringing a smaller elite army and/or a fully meched-up army? They're obviously pretty competitive, given the general trend of tournament results since 5e came out. Would you rather be playing a horde army, and just chose not to because of time? If so, that's something TO's should know, too.
No, by taking the hit in this case I am referring to the fact that I have made a conscious decision to take an elite army (bikes, in my case for this tourney) knowing full well that I don't have the excess wounds necessary to weather many losses. I choose to take a hit in numbers to excel in movement. I do get a toughness buff, but the amount of 7+ str stuff really makes that largely irrelevant, which I am okay with. I know what I am getting into.
Please don't misunderstand, I am not attacking horde players - in fact, I have played them in the past and will likely play them again in the future. I think that if you don't have them in the metagame, then there is even less of a need for high rate of fire, lowish strength shooting and then it just becomes even more plasma/melta/missile heavy.
What I am saying is that more data would be great in order to make a solid determination as to what the "best" time is for each round.
edit: the escalation idea is an interesting one. Would you anticipate that the 1500 points be required in the 2000 point lists? So in effect adding 500 extra points? If so, do they submit that list ahead of time or is it effectively a sideboard of gearing up towards the prevalent armies at the tourney (lots of wolves, I need 500 points of plasma vs. lots of foot orks, I need lots of heavy bolters)?
I think one day of 4-5 1,500pt games followed by another day of 3 2k games would be awesome. My only concern is that the game is more inclined to rock/paper/scissor designs at 1,500. Even with this though I'd still prefer it to 1,750-1,850 for the whole tournament. I'm just not a fan of those point values oddly. I don't feel like certain armies can fit well there from 1,500 (like Nids).
Somnicide wrote:the escalation idea is an interesting one. Would you anticipate that the 1500 points be required in the 2000 point lists? So in effect adding 500 extra points? If so, do they submit that list ahead of time or is it effectively a sideboard of gearing up towards the prevalent armies at the tourney (lots of wolves, I need 500 points of plasma vs. lots of foot orks, I need lots of heavy bolters)?
I think the escalation idea could be a new fun way to fun a tourney. However in my opinion, I think you would have to submit your 1500pt, and 2000pt list in before the tourney. I also believe it would be best for it the extra 500pts to be a add on to the 1500pt list. Or else the TO would have to recheck everyone's list again the following day. Other then that, I believe it could be very fun.
Somnicide wrote:No, by taking the hit in this case I am referring to the fact that I have made a conscious decision to take an elite army (bikes, in my case for this tourney) knowing full well that I don't have the excess wounds necessary to weather many losses. I choose to take a hit in numbers to excel in movement. I do get a toughness buff, but the amount of 7+ str stuff really makes that largely irrelevant, which I am okay with. I know what I am getting into.
But how much of your choice was dictated by time constraints? If the answer is "not much," then you made a perfectly reasonable choice based on in-game and metagame considerations, something I *thought* I did as well, until game 2 was called before the end of turn 5.
edit: the escalation idea is an interesting one. Would you anticipate that the 1500 points be required in the 2000 point lists? So in effect adding 500 extra points? If so, do they submit that list ahead of time or is it effectively a sideboard of gearing up towards the prevalent armies at the tourney (lots of wolves, I need 500 points of plasma vs. lots of foot orks, I need lots of heavy bolters)?
No clue. The Adepticon Gladiator this year is using sideboards, but they're fixed before the dice start falling. In order to avoid overly-hindering long-distance players (who probably won't have access to their entire collection), it's probably more fair to require both lists to be turned in before round 1.
If the 2000 pt list isn't required to be a superset of the 1500 pt list, you could seriously screw with your opponent's heads, though; there's a LOT of variety available in some of the different armies.
Hulksmash wrote:I think one day of 4-5 1,500pt games followed by another day of 3 2k games would be awesome. My only concern is that the game is more inclined to rock/paper/scissor designs at 1,500. Even with this though I'd still prefer it to 1,750-1,850 for the whole tournament. I'm just not a fan of those point values oddly. I don't feel like certain armies can fit well there from 1,500 (like Nids).
It can be matchup-dependent, yes. But 40k almost always is, at any point level; ask Reece about his mirror match against Lambadomy, as I bet he'd rather have played against almost any other list there.
I have some interesting 1500 pt 'Nid builds. The problem is mostly that they don't look all that much like my 2k list, so building a 2000 pt list that contained the 1500 would be more challenging; that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Somnicide wrote:No, by taking the hit in this case I am referring to the fact that I have made a conscious decision to take an elite army (bikes, in my case for this tourney) knowing full well that I don't have the excess wounds necessary to weather many losses. I choose to take a hit in numbers to excel in movement. I do get a toughness buff, but the amount of 7+ str stuff really makes that largely irrelevant, which I am okay with. I know what I am getting into.
But how much of your choice was dictated by time constraints? If the answer is "not much," then you made a perfectly reasonable choice based on in-game and metagame considerations, something I *thought* I did as well, until game 2 was called before the end of turn 5.
the answer for me on this is game time had 0 consideration. I like bikes and was bound and determined to make them win. I have now decided that they don't move fast enough for me so am moving on to dark eldar ;-)
It's not match up dependence though that is a far greater issue at 1,500. It's that I don't feel the game is 100% balanced at 1,500. It's better than at 1,750-1,850 but not as good as 2k. Basically I've found it to be far more rock/paper/scissor at lower levels as armies can't build the depth they need for truly balanced, take all comers lists.
And I believe it when you say you've got some good 1,500pt lists. I'm an advocate that Nids make their best lists at 2k and 1,500.
I'm in favor of an escalation tournament. Same codex is fine but I wouldn't like 1,500 being part of the 2k. Just submit both early and double check on day two. We're not talking about a Nova or Adepticon sized event. We're talking hopefully 50-70 people.
It's not match up dependence though that is a far greater issue at 1,500. It's that I don't feel the game is 100% balanced at 1,500. It's better than at 1,750-1,850 but not as good as 2k. Basically I've found it to be far more rock/paper/scissor at lower levels as armies can't build the depth they need for truly balanced, take all comers lists.
We may be saying the same thing. Yes, you can't build all the tools into (most) 1500 pt lists. So you have to gamble. If you go light on anti-Land Raider gear, and get the 4 LRBA player, then the matchup got you. And I like that - you simply CAN'T take everything, and a bad matchup means you're going to have to makeup for your list deficiencies via generalship.
I'm in favor of an escalation tournament. Same codex is fine but I wouldn't like 1,500 being part of the 2k. Just submit both early and double check on day two. We're not talking about a Nova or Adepticon sized event. We're talking hopefully 50-70 people.
Next step: let's talk Reece/Italiaplayer/et al into doing the Bay Area event that way.
I think we are saying the same thing about the match ups. We just view it differently. I think there are bad enough match-ups at 1,500 to nearly make it unfun though I'm always game for an uphill fight not everyone shares that view.
And I'm all for slapping them around a bit to get them to get that Bay area event up and running
Just wanted to say thanks again to Mark and the crew for running such a great tournament. I don't know that I've ever faced such good opponents consecutively like that. Really made for a fun and challenging weekend.
I thought the venue was nice and the store manager was very hospitable. Not only did he agree to ship an item directly to me, but pitched in 50 cents to ensure I had no out of pocket costs after combining my store credit and the remaining credit Frankie left for me (thanks again, Frankie). Class acts all around.
Looking forward to making it back up for some of your RTT's and of course the big GT next year!
cgage00 wrote:I was goin to show up on Sunday with my army but I was under the impression I couldn't cause I was not in the tourney. But I did get alot of painting done only my new tanks.
Techinically you could have even entered the tourney for day two but you wouldn't have been eligible for any prizes. You could have come out for some ranked play though. Our system can accommodate that (it also accommodates only playing on day 1 as well).
BAH!!! now you tell me!!!!! oh well I got alot of my Iron warriors painted.
If presented with another 2k tournament with 2:20 rounds, I'll almost certainly choose not to bring Tyranids, and I'd expect Yakface will choose not to bring foot orks; whether that has any significance for the organizers is up to them. As I said, I had fun, and I'm glad I went. Everything past that is either an observation or a suggestion/aspiration for improvement, not a complaint.
It's of great consequence to me because the last thing I want is people not playing what they consider their "best" army because of circumstances like time constraints.
2:20 feels typical to me for a 2000 point game playing at "tournament speed" as opposed to "casual speed". However if it really is shutting our horde players then I probably am going to stay away from 2000 point games because increasing the round length isn't really a practical option. I'm curious what you would consider a proper amount of time for a 1500 point game, since we run the majority of our tournaments at that point level.
Just for data purposes here is how my games shook out this weekend:
Game 1: vs. Mech Dark Eldar. Midway through the bottom of turn 5 when we realized that I had more Kill Points accrued then he could possibly get back from my army he retired, thus finishing the game in time. If the game had needed to be played past turn 5 I'm not sure whether we could have finished turn 6 or not.
Game 2: vs. Mech/Kan Orks. Major time issues. Even though his army was mainly meched up, once most stuff was out by the end of the game, things started to slow down. We realistically finished 4 turns, but being a nice guy I agreed to play a turn 5 even though to do so meant we only moved/shot/assaulted the units that probably mattered towards the final impact of the game. So we officially squeaked out a turn 5 and did not roll for it as we were over time at that point.
Game 3: vs. Mech/Thunderwolf Space Wolves. Opponent retired in turn 5 when he believed he no longer had the ability to capture enough objectives to tie or win. As with game 1, I have doubts that had the game actually been close whether we could have finished out to turn 7 if the rolls had dictated it.
Game 4: vs. Mech Deathguard: We finished the end of turn 5 right as time was called. At that point we rolled the dice just for fun to see if the game would have continued and it did not, so technically this was a 'finished' game although again if a turn 6 and/or 7 had been needed we would not have been able to play this.
Game 5: vs. Thunderwolves/(and a bit of) Mech Space Wolves. Our game was the last one still being played, and I'm pretty sure we were playing in 'overtime' when we yelled out our 'results' in turn 6, which was that it was clear he had won. However, I enjoy playing games to the bitter end even when I know I've lost (just to kill that one damn enemy model that's been giving me a royal pain the whole game, for example). We kept playing for fun after the results had been submitted and it did technically end up going to turn 7. I have no idea what turn we would have been on if our game had been called at the real end of the round.
So were I filling out a sheet of how many games were finished to completion I would have written down:
If presented with another 2k tournament with 2:20 rounds, I'll almost certainly choose not to bring Tyranids, and I'd expect Yakface will choose not to bring foot orks; whether that has any significance for the organizers is up to them. As I said, I had fun, and I'm glad I went. Everything past that is either an observation or a suggestion/aspiration for improvement, not a complaint.
It's of great consequence to me because the last thing I want is people not playing what they consider their "best" army because of circumstances like time constraints.
2:20 feels typical to me for a 2000 point game playing at "tournament speed" as opposed to "casual speed". However if it really is shutting our horde players then I probably am going to stay away from 2000 point games because increasing the round length isn't really a practical option. I'm curious what you would consider a proper amount of time for a 1500 point game, since we run the majority of our tournaments at that point level.
Just for data purposes here is how my games shook out this weekend:
Game 1: vs. Mech Dark Eldar. Midway through the bottom of turn 5 when we realized that I had more Kill Points accrued then he could possibly get back from my army he retired, thus finishing the game in time. If the game had needed to be played past turn 5 I'm not sure whether we could have finished turn 6 or not.
Game 2: vs. Mech/Kan Orks. Major time issues. Even though his army was mainly meched up, once most stuff was out by the end of the game, things started to slow down. We realistically finished 4 turns, but being a nice guy I agreed to play a turn 5 even though to do so meant we only moved/shot/assaulted the units that probably mattered towards the final impact of the game. So we officially squeaked out a turn 5 and did not roll for it as we were over time at that point.
Game 3: vs. Mech/Thunderwolf Space Wolves. Opponent retired in turn 5 when he believed he no longer had the ability to capture enough objectives to tie or win. As with game 1, I have doubts that had the game actually been close whether we could have finished out to turn 7 if the rolls had dictated it.
Game 4: vs. Mech Deathguard: We finished the end of turn 5 right as time was called. At that point we rolled the dice just for fun to see if the game would have continued and it did not, so technically this was a 'finished' game although again if a turn 6 and/or 7 had been needed we would not have been able to play this.
Game 5: vs. Thunderwolves/(and a bit of) Mech Space Wolves. Our game was the last one still being played, and I'm pretty sure we were playing in 'overtime' when we yelled out our 'results' in turn 6, which was that it was clear he had won. However, I enjoy playing games to the bitter end even when I know I've lost (just to kill that one damn enemy model that's been giving me a royal pain the whole game, for example). We kept playing for fun after the results had been submitted and it did technically end up going to turn 7. I have no idea what turn we would have been on if our game had been called at the real end of the round.
So were I filling out a sheet of how many games were finished to completion I would have written down:
Well it sounds like 2 of your incomplete games were technically complete. Game 5 is a good example of "tournament speed" when you can just scoop because you're aware of the outcome. The game might end early, but it doesn't impact the result.
One of the nice things about our system is that it's a lot more forgiving with end game results. Games can be spoken for in the early turns with no confusing secondary objectives or battle points that carry over from meaningless games that are already decided. You don't always have to play them out to the bitter end (you are of course welcome to for fun if your opponent is interested). I've always wondered how a battle point system is supposed to work when an opponent just concedes.
Either way Yak you are the outlier but between you and Janthkin it's still important to accommodate those playstyles and army construction so long as I don't alienate the rest of the field when doing so. As I said in an earlier post pushing rounds to 2:30 or 2:45 would be even more agonizing for the players piloting elite size armies who finish their games in an hour and it would likely be more agonizing for everyone as the day stretches into 10 hours or more. Rather than do that I'd just assume reducing the point size next time around.
Reecius wrote:All my games finished early or very early, for what it's worth.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and I prefer 1500 or 2000, as Hulk said. I don't care for 1750 or 1850, either.
Why don't you like 1750 or 1850? How is 1850 worse than 2000?
Reecius wrote:All my games finished early or very early, for what it's worth.
That is what happens when you only use the shooting phase
The problem I had was that my games ended in about an hour so I had a lot of free time every day. Of course that is what happens when you play DE against a couple of 15 missile launcher long fang armies.
I've been thinking about it, and I believe that the Kan Wall I run is perhaps the slowest army I've ever played with because nearly every single model in the army (with a few exceptions) is moving in the movement phase running or shooting in the shooting phase and then assaulting when possible as well. I think only a shooty-based Tyranid build is as labor intensive in every phase of the game. Of course, a shooty-based Boyz army would be even *more* time consuming...for a 'horde' army, I don't actually have that many models for a 2,000 point army.
Obviously you can't factor the time of your rounds for the completely extreme slow player/gigantic army, but I do think for tournaments based around a pure W/L/T mechanic the need for complete games is even *more* important as there are no 'bonus' mission points out there to soften the blow when a player is essentially 'robbed' of a victory by the clock. I think the fact that I didn't end up playing any other true horde or slow players is what allowed me to come (at least really close) to finishing all my games but one...that and the decisive nature of a few of the games. If the games had been more tightly contested in turn 5 or if I had played another horde or slow player then most certainly those games would have been lucky to reach the end of turn 4.
Obviously you make the final call of what the acceptable number of 'unfinished' games in your tourney is. If 15% is the accurate number and that's an acceptable rate to you, then so be it! Like you said, in such a case, the majority of the games are finishing in time, so most people are having a complete gaming experience throughout the day. Obviously the heavy ratio of smaller mech-based armies makes the likelihood of the dual 'horde' match-up less common, but I still can't personally help shake the feeling as I expressed in that other thread that the current trend of point value to time limit helps to funnel the army choice that players do make.
I agree with what Hulksmash said in that other thread, that sure if you added a bunch of time to the rounds or drop the amount of points I don't think we'll suddenly see a giant wash of horde armies enter the fray...the v5 rules have far too many advantages built-in for mech armies for that to really happen. But I *do* know of some people being on the fence about what army to bring to a tournament and actually choosing to go with the more elite/mech style army because they wouldn't have to face the same kind of time pressures during the day, and that is what does personally give me pause.
And again, I don't think the answer is to stop offering 2,000 point tournaments even if you can't find a way to add more time to the rounds. The fact that you *do* offer 1,500 point tournaments at other times gives players a nice change of pace and that's what matters. That means even if some players do get frustrated with the time constraints of one particular 2,000 point tournament they can choose to sit that one out and just come back to one of your other 1,500 pt ones...and that's what is important IMHO. Or maybe sometimes you try mixing in a 1,750 or 1,850 point version of the tournament instead of a 2,000 point one every now and then. I think variety can only be a good thing. Are certain army builds better at certain point values? I'm sure they are! But I think the same is true at every points value. As long as there is variety in the points level being played in tournaments, then it will never feel 'unfair' because (again) players can simply skip any particular tournament playing at a point value they don't like. Hell, I'm even down to play some 1,000 or 1,250 point tournaments every now and then!
As for the optimal round lengths for a 2,000 point army, I personally feel like 2:30 is the minimum requirement to ensure that two horde and/or less experienced players playing against each other at least have a good chance to finish their game. I've never understood the problem with having longer rounds being a bummer to people who finish early. I know in years past I've gotten done with some of my games very quickly, but the fact that you know what time the next round starts means you have the option to either sit around and watch some other games being played OR just go get some food/take a nap in your car/hotel room, etc. In fact, I think one of the ways you can build in some extra playing time is to have longer 'breaks' in between each round and then let games taking a longer amount of time play 'into' the break. Yeah, it can suck not being able to run out and grab some lunch if your game lasts a long time, but I honestly prefer that rather than calling the game on turn 4...but maybe that's just me.
Anyway, I had a great time at the tourney and I did not feel overly constrained by the time, although it would have been nice to have a little bit more time if I had to choose. I really did enjoy being able to completely finish my game 5, even though I had realistically lost the game (at least) a turn earlier. I play 40K now primarily because I enjoy the actual game and winning the game is second to that. I think that's why I like playing smaller point games with longer time limits because it allows me to savor and enjoy the gaming experience more rather than feel like I'm just running through the game to punch-out a W/L result.
I'd also be remiss if I didn't say thanks again for taking the time to run these tournaments. Like almost all TOs, you do a tremendous amount of work for very little (if any) benefit for yourself and I certainly appreciate it.
Haha, yeah, very true! And the only units that actually move are tanks, so it is quick.
@Kevin
My reasoning is purely subjective but I think it is shared by a lot of players.
1750 and 1850 don't feel like "complete" armies. They are close enough to 2000 to feel like a full sized game (I think of 2K as a full sized game) but minus key units. I hate making 1750 and 1850 lists because it never feels "right." I always feel like I am playing with less than I need to make a real 2K list.
1500 though, is a different game. I think of it as a different game, make different lists, etc. 1500 feels complete to me.
I know that seems utterly arbitrary, and it probably is, but I think there are other people that feel the same way.
Also, like Yak, I really enjoy 1000 point tournaments on 4x4' tables. You can do real round robin events and they are super fun. A really different game at 1K but definitely a blast!
Take all of my comments as constructive too, please. I loved the event and feel that with just a few very minor changes, you guys will have the best structure on the west coast.
I get what you are saying Reece, but I feel like 1500 is a solid core and that extra 250 lets me introduce "fun" stuff that maybe isn't super lean but I don't get punished overmuch for bringing it - I see 1500 as being one game and 2000 points as a different game like you, but rather than feeling like 1750 (or 1850) are 2000-250 it is more like 1500+250.
Does that make any kind of sense? I obviously need to go to bed.
Yeah, like I said, I am sure I am being totally arbitrary. I am just a steadfast 2K guy, I have always played 2K games since 2nd ed. It feels normal to me because of repetition.
I will still go to an 1850 or 1750 event for sure, I just always feel like I have an arm tied behind my back, but it is all in my head.
I guess I just like 500 point chunks! Haha. 1K, 1.5K, 2K! Those are my favorites.
I like the 1750-1850 point range. As Pat said, you get to have the core of your army, and and something interesting to go with it.
I think that 2000 is a bit high. You do not have to make any hard choices, and you get to have all of your toys. The problem is that some armies toys are better than others.
1500 feels really low to me. It is hard to build an army that has all of the pieces working together, and a good "Take-all-comers" army.
Blackmoor wrote:I like the 1750-1850 point range. As Pat said, you get to have the core of your army, and and something interesting to go with it.
I think that 2000 is a bit high. You do not have to make any hard choices, and you get to have all of your toys. The problem is that some armies toys are better than others.
1500 feels really low to me. It is hard to build an army that has all of the pieces working together, and a good "Take-all-comers" army.
I would have to agree with blackmoor. I believe 2000pts is just to high for me as well. I enjoy playing 1750-1850pts (maybe its because I have become accustomed to it) But I believe thats a nice solid point limit. However, 1500 is always nice too. Either way though, Its always nice to change it up a bit.
I find that 1750-1850 pushes certain armies into builds that just don't work for them. 1,500 normally has every army able to compete but is more prone to match-ups due to it being a core of an army type point limit so you can't build in the same redundency. Meanwhile 2k you can build true, all comers lists. But the middle ground leaves certain codexes unable to cope with others in my opinion. Nids and DE to me feel like they can't quite be all comers at in this range. Eldar and Chaos to a lesser degree is the same thing. Meanwhile most SM Variants and IG do just fine at any point level.
One thing I have noticed about 2000 is that the FO becomes kinda homogenized. Most codecis have to fill up every single slo so everyone has 3 elite, 3 heavy, 3 fast etc.... In smaller games, especially 1500,choices need to be made. Sometimes you can't have every FO slot. You have to choose elite over fast or heavy over elite or such.
Hulksmash wrote:I find that 1750-1850 pushes certain armies into builds that just don't work for them. 1,500 normally has every army able to compete but is more prone to match-ups due to it being a core of an army type point limit so you can't build in the same redundency. Meanwhile 2k you can build true, all comers lists. But the middle ground leaves certain codexes unable to cope with others in my opinion. Nids and DE to me feel like they can't quite be all comers at in this range. Eldar and Chaos to a lesser degree is the same thing. Meanwhile most SM Variants and IG do just fine at any point level.
I find just the opposite. Certain armies do better at the extreme point levels of 1500 and 2000 and most codexes meet in the middle point range.
Just my take on the time limit, I generally kept my army in reserves and came on turn 2 and still barely managed to finish some games. I guess both my opponents and I had to think quite a bit about what to do but we generally barely got past turn 5 and my very last game was over on turn 6 with like a few minutes to spare BARELY. I guess it just comes down to how deep in thought you are about how you move and play your army and nids or bigger armies, (from a good player's perspective probably) have not only more to move for the controlling player but also more to deal with for both players. I mean after all, the more units/bigger the units the bigger the equation gets as to what you should do right?
I remember taking a good long time to think on how I should even move vs my 2nd round nid opponent as I was just confounded by the sheer bulk of threats everywhere.
So yeah, I can imagine finding the right balance for time limits can be hard.
Reecius wrote:Dude! Hahaha, those pictures of us are atrocious!
Can we plase back out from the super close-up with HD cameras?!?1 Haha, I am prettier from a distance with a crappy camera!
Haha I'll mention that to Ken. I thought you guys looked fine, except for Shep, who for some reason has lambodomy's head growing out of his shoulder. It's an Ettin!
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), and next time I won't forget to drop a whole mob o' boyz on the field 
. It was still a great game and I am looking forward to our rematch any time your ready buddy 
Aren't your Tau painted?