23663
Post by: minigun762
Currently I'm only running basic CSMs with no Cult units but I'm often tempted by Berzerkers simply because they excel in close combat which is where I want my CSMs in the majority of situations. What holds me back is that I worry Berzerkers might be too simple or focused to use.
Is there any big tactical decision to make with them beyond what to charge first?
19247
Post by: Ed_Bodger
Not really they are very much point and click the key thing is to support them well otherwise they get shot up too much to be of continuing good use. Fearless is great however as it means that you enemy has to kill every last one to stop them.
24956
Post by: Xca|iber
They're very good as a pseduo-hammer. That is, when applied properly against certain units, they can be just as effective as an expensive, killy, hammer unit. They also score, which is a bonus, and they have enough bodies so that they can hold their ground against large or tough units which do not die in the initial assault.
So yes, they're very focused, but they can be vastly more useful than double-teaming with standard CSM in certain situations, imho. (Such as when you need a decisive combat instead of a drawn out assault).
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
they do one thing and they do it well. I'm for it. in 40k you can handle most of your problems in close combat if you build an army to do it. 10 charging berserkers are pretty fierce. if you throw in demons and add skarbrand they can take on anything.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
bezerkers are very effective.
i once faced a complete Zerker army with over 80 of the buggers. there were only 4 bezerkers left at the end of the game, but they did table me.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
that sounds like a *good* fight. the blood god approves 
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
we decided the blood god won.
my last model was a Landraider who atempted to tankshock 2 zerkers off an objective for a tie game.
he DoG with a melta bomb, landraider exploded and those 2 zerkers failed their saves. this left 4 zerkers and Abbadon standing.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
thats awesome. pure win.
17661
Post by: greenbay924
My very first 40k game was at 1000 points and involved facing two units of berzerkers....they might be one dimensional, but they do that one dimension damn well.
5435
Post by: extrenm(54)
Berzerkers are always a good choice. I have trouble making a list that does not have Berzerkers in it. Give them a rhino, position them well, and multi-charge when you can. They will really help any CSM list.
18861
Post by: Sanctjud
It's hard to go wrong with Zerkers... unless you come up against an army that can effectively decide you don't get to charge it.... :-(
Otherwise... I've used Bezerkers in a shooting role for the lulz....if they can do well in that, it only shows how awesome-sauce they are in combat. 
963
Post by: Mannahnin
They're great, but you'll occasionally be sad that they can't bring meltaguns to the party. Putting a combi-melta on their rhino helps mitigate this disappointment a little, though.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
ONE DIMENSIONAL FOR THE SINGLE-DIMENSION THRONE!!!
Seriously, I've played off against them a couple times and were REALLY unimpressed with their preformance against my power blobs (as in, 20 guardsmen laid all 10 of their asses FLAT). That said, I can still see a role for them. They're sort of like scorpions in an eldar army or assault marines in a regular marine army.
The real question is if you take actual berzerkers or just MoK marines.
21399
Post by: tedurur
Ailaros wrote:ONE DIMENSIONAL FOR THE SINGLE-DIMENSION THRONE!!!
Seriously, I've played off against them a couple times and were REALLY unimpressed with their preformance against my power blobs (as in, 20 guardsmen laid all 10 of their asses FLAT). That said, I can still see a role for them. They're sort of like scorpions in an eldar army or assault marines in a regular marine army.
The real question is if you take actual berzerkers or just MoK marines.
Anecdotal evidence FTW  . On the charge the 10 Zerkers will on average kill 14.8 guardsmen (without a skull champ). If the guardsmen gets the charge they will kill 8.9 guardsmen before they hit back the guardsmen will then (assuming you have a commisar with a pw and a sarge with a pw) kill 2.333 Zerkers. They are pretty damn neat imo.
23663
Post by: minigun762
Mannahnin wrote:They're great, but you'll occasionally be sad that they can't bring meltaguns to the party
If you come right down to it, thats really the only significant difference between Berzerkers and CSMs, whether or not they can bring Meltaguns to the battle.
Considering how much better Berzerkers are in HtH combat and how they can get a 4x S9 Power Fist swings against armor, is a pair of Meltaguns really worth it? I'm starting to feel that its not.
527
Post by: Flavius Infernus
minigun762 wrote:Mannahnin wrote:They're great, but you'll occasionally be sad that they can't bring meltaguns to the party
If you come right down to it, thats really the only significant difference between Berzerkers and CSMs, whether or not they can bring Meltaguns to the battle.
Considering how much better Berzerkers are in HtH combat and how they can get a 4x S9 Power Fist swings against armor, is a pair of Meltaguns really worth it? I'm starting to feel that its not.
As somebody who has spent entire games trying in vain to hurt a land raider with a powerfist, I can tell you that the meltaguns somewhere in your army are vital. The fist may be str9, but against a competent opponent you'll need 6's to hit most of the time (and even then 5's to glance and only pen on a 6 against land raiders).
It's the zerker's major drawback, that they need somebody else to provide anti-land-raider (and anti-dread to a lesser extent) support for them so they can do their job. They can handle models with AR10 rear armor pretty well, but land raiders are a deal breaker, and redeemers love to see them bunch up in vehicle assault formation...
23399
Post by: thunderingjove
Grey Templar wrote:bezerkers are very effective.
i once faced a complete Zerker army with over 80 of the buggers. there were only 4 bezerkers left at the end of the game, but they did table me.
Wow! imagine how satisfying that battle would have been to the Blood God. What army did you field?
15111
Post by: MrDrumMachine
I'm gonna come out and say it. They suck. You have to buy them a landraider to really get mileage out of them and then look at what you've gone and done, bought a land raider.
When Chaos can get crusaders, or redeemers or even power of the machine spirit or at least an effin multi-melta on their land raiders zerkers might be viable.
There's several players in my area ranging in experience to regular GT atendees to just fluff nut people and being unable to get real charges of on people from decent transports will simply relegate them to the shelf most of the time for serious armies (or in my case to my store's consignment case).
As it stands for the 250-400+ points it takes to make zerkers even usable in the list you can get things in the chaos codex that will actually kill your opponent more consistently than hoping they leave a unit out of position for you to charge from a rhino or have your land raider suicide melta'd to death by a land speeder or something equally as sad.
527
Post by: Flavius Infernus
Hmmm, I never had trouble getting a charge with berzerkers out of a rhino.
My turn: drive rhino close
Opponent's turn: rhino gets blown up
My turn: berzerkers who fell out of the blown-up rhino charge in
That said, you still need a mechanized force with at least 5-6 rhinos for it to be effective. Plus some long-range fire support.
15111
Post by: MrDrumMachine
There's a big difference between getting a charge and getting a charge at something meaningful. If your opponent is out of position and leaves something important to get smacked on by the zerkers then it's either not that important or the difference in skill between you and your opponent is quite vast.
With a land raider you can usually get at least 2 turns of movement out of it and get somewhere that you can really hurt your opponent. Again though you're either stealing the LR or buying it from heavy support where you need to field your long range transport popping anyway.
I just find that there is no really effective way to make a balanced army that can make the best use of a berserkers, and even as far as CC specialists go they're very mediocre compared across the codecies. I find an equivilant point amount of wyches to be scarier than zerkers in CC especially with the rest of the army being able to synergize with them.
What can you rely on zerkers really killing? Foot orks? I wouldn't trust them against a good nob squad especially if the nobs are on bikes. Twolf Cav? You can't ID them and they really should be the ones charging unless something very unlucky happened. Against BA you're pretty much screwed vs their mobility but they're also significantly tougher than you and bring the ability to kill your tanks in a single unit.
Can you put zerkers in a list and assume it will work? No. Can you build around them and make a good army? Maybe. That's a BIG maybe, but I would rather just play as BA with a world eaters army as the rules fit the fluff better and you end up being much more successful.
5435
Post by: extrenm(54)
MrDrumMachine wrote:There's a big difference between getting a charge and getting a charge at something meaningful. If your opponent is out of position and leaves something important to get smacked on by the zerkers then it's either not that important or the difference in skill between you and your opponent is quite vast.
With a land raider you can usually get at least 2 turns of movement out of it and get somewhere that you can really hurt your opponent. Again though you're either stealing the LR or buying it from heavy support where you need to field your long range transport popping anyway.
I just find that there is no really effective way to make a balanced army that can make the best use of a berserkers, and even as far as CC specialists go they're very mediocre compared across the codecies. I find an equivilant point amount of wyches to be scarier than zerkers in CC especially with the rest of the army being able to synergize with them.
What can you rely on zerkers really killing? Foot orks? I wouldn't trust them against a good nob squad especially if the nobs are on bikes. Twolf Cav? You can't ID them and they really should be the ones charging unless something very unlucky happened. Against BA you're pretty much screwed vs their mobility but they're also significantly tougher than you and bring the ability to kill your tanks in a single unit.
Can you put zerkers in a list and assume it will work? No. Can you build around them and make a good army? Maybe. That's a BIG maybe, but I would rather just play as BA with a world eaters army as the rules fit the fluff better and you end up being much more successful.
I have used berzerkers with a lot of success over the past 2 years. Perhaps if I just rushed the enemy with no plan in mind they would be bad, but when used in conjunction with shooty elements of your army they can work very well.
34811
Post by: AspireToGlory
MrDrumMachine wrote:
What can you rely on zerkers really killing? Foot orks? I wouldn't trust them against a good nob squad especially if the nobs are on bikes. Twolf Cav? You can't ID them and they really should be the ones charging unless something very unlucky happened. Against BA you're pretty much screwed vs their mobility but they're also significantly tougher than you and bring the ability to kill your tanks in a single unit.
Tactical Squads
Assault Squads (attached Priest could make it dicey)
Scout Squads
Guardsmen, all of them
Chaos Marine Squads
Thousand Sons
Noise Marines
Everything in the Eldar codex except the Avatar, Wraithlord, and some phoenix lords
Everything in the Tau Codex
Everything in the Witchunters Codex
Everything in the DE codex except Incubi, Grotesques, possibly Swarms
.....it's actually easier just to list the things they can't kill. They are excellent assault troops. Of course they can't handle TWC, I don't think there's a thing in the game that can handle a tooled squad (possibly Swarmy with Guard, and then he costs more).
15111
Post by: MrDrumMachine
extrenm(54) wrote:MrDrumMachine wrote:There's a big difference between getting a charge and getting a charge at something meaningful. If your opponent is out of position and leaves something important to get smacked on by the zerkers then it's either not that important or the difference in skill between you and your opponent is quite vast.
With a land raider you can usually get at least 2 turns of movement out of it and get somewhere that you can really hurt your opponent. Again though you're either stealing the LR or buying it from heavy support where you need to field your long range transport popping anyway.
I just find that there is no really effective way to make a balanced army that can make the best use of a berserkers, and even as far as CC specialists go they're very mediocre compared across the codecies. I find an equivilant point amount of wyches to be scarier than zerkers in CC especially with the rest of the army being able to synergize with them.
What can you rely on zerkers really killing? Foot orks? I wouldn't trust them against a good nob squad especially if the nobs are on bikes. Twolf Cav? You can't ID them and they really should be the ones charging unless something very unlucky happened. Against BA you're pretty much screwed vs their mobility but they're also significantly tougher than you and bring the ability to kill your tanks in a single unit.
Can you put zerkers in a list and assume it will work? No. Can you build around them and make a good army? Maybe. That's a BIG maybe, but I would rather just play as BA with a world eaters army as the rules fit the fluff better and you end up being much more successful.
I have used berzerkers with a lot of success over the past 2 years. Perhaps if I just rushed the enemy with no plan in mind they would be bad, but when used in conjunction with shooty elements of your army they can work very well.
Against what? Saying a unit can be used with success is like saying I once killed a SM commander on a bike with my Crisis suits. Sometimes assault is the only option and it can be successful if you get lucky.
Against a 4th edition foot army, sure go nuts, but in a competitive environment I've never seen zerkers succeed at anything really substantial that another unit from the codex of equal points wouldn't have done just as well or better. Automatically Appended Next Post: AspireToGlory wrote:MrDrumMachine wrote:
What can you rely on zerkers really killing? Foot orks? I wouldn't trust them against a good nob squad especially if the nobs are on bikes. Twolf Cav? You can't ID them and they really should be the ones charging unless something very unlucky happened. Against BA you're pretty much screwed vs their mobility but they're also significantly tougher than you and bring the ability to kill your tanks in a single unit.
Tactical Squads
Assault Squads (attached Priest could make it dicey)
Scout Squads
Guardsmen, all of them
Chaos Marine Squads
Thousand Sons
Noise Marines
Everything in the Eldar codex except the Avatar, Wraithlord, and some phoenix lords
Everything in the Tau Codex
Everything in the Witchunters Codex
Everything in the DE codex except Incubi, Grotesques, possibly Swarms
.....it's actually easier just to list the things they can't kill. They are excellent assault troops. Of course they can't handle TWC, I don't think there's a thing in the game that can handle a tooled squad (possibly Swarmy with Guard, and then he costs more).
There's a lot of more efficient ways to kill tactical squads than zerkers. Assault squads you really shouldn't get the charge on and if they do have a priest I think you're boned either way but I don't have time to mathhammer it out atm. I would except wyches out of the DE codex as well considering it's going to be very common for them to start the game with FNP and 4++/4+ and going before you no matter what will make you have a bad day in CC, also remember each wych is less than half the cost of a single zerker.
Everything else you listed can be more efficiently killed in CC by standard chaos marine squads of less points with more options such as melta guns/plasma/icon of whatever.
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Post by: Jaon
Because of their one dimensionalness its easy to counter them, but with the adequate support, you will prevail.
34801
Post by: MechaEmperor7000
I've had a single berserker run through 20 tau fire warriors and a battlesuit (thankfully he wasnt armed with a plasma gun) and managed to kill all of the fire warriors before being put down by a battlesuit fist to the face. Granted I got some really good rolls on the armor saves, but in combat there is nothing else better in the CSM troops section. Zerker swarms are also devastating, as only 3 or 4 needs to actually survive to tear the enemy a new one. If your opponent does call them one-dimensional, replay his kind words by making his army 2 dimensional.
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Post by: Grey Templar
thunderingjove wrote:Grey Templar wrote:bezerkers are very effective.
i once faced a complete Zerker army with over 80 of the buggers. there were only 4 bezerkers left at the end of the game, but they did table me.
Wow! imagine how satisfying that battle would have been to the Blood God. What army did you field?
Grey Knights. Stern, GKGM(both with 5 terminator bodyguards), 30 PAGKs, Dreadnought with lascannon and missile launcher and a Land Raider.
i wasn't expecting a zerker list as you might be able to tell.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
Jaon wrote:Because of their one dimensionalness its easy to counter them, but with the adequate support, you will prevail.
Right, they're one of those units where the list needs to support the unit in order for the unit to support the list. Just tonight I played against a 10-man squad of bezerkers that killed ONE model in close combat before they died horribly. Of course, they were thrown out unsupported on a wing, and I crushed them. They have to have interlocking support with the list in general, and played with support on the field in order for them to work right.
A raider driving up and piling out some berzerkers totally unsupported is probably going to end up with a dead raider and some dead 'zerkers.
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Post by: thunderingjove
Ailaros wrote:Jaon wrote:Because of their one dimensionalness its easy to counter them, but with the adequate support, you will prevail.
Right, they're one of those units where the list needs to support the unit in order for the unit to support the list. Just tonight I played against a 10-man squad of bezerkers that killed ONE model in close combat before they died horribly. Of course, they were thrown out unsupported on a wing, and I crushed them. They have to have interlocking support with the list in general, and played with support on the field in order for them to work right.
A raider driving up and piling out some berzerkers totally unsupported is probably going to end up with a dead raider and some dead 'zerkers.
What army did you bring against them?
4820
Post by: Ailaros
Guard. I'll get the battle report up in a couple days.
Meanwhile, I played against this player in game 3 of my first tournament, and more recently this game.
The problem is that the math only works out for berzerkers if they get the charge in. Even if they do, they're still beatable (see the second linked game).
19247
Post by: Ed_Bodger
I don't agree with math hammer anyway seeing as it only proves that in a totally unsupported situation *this* might happen if the player rolls mathematically accurate dice...this is rubbish. Berzerkers are up there with the best assault troops in the game. Of course they are one dimensional they are Khorne Berzerkers FFS. Someone compared them to CSM with Mark of Khorne NO they are totally different for 9 more points you get furious charge and fearless and if you wan to smash stuff in CC you want these rather than the ability to have bolters and special weapons. If you want to melta stuff use CSM if you want to rip Infantry, MC and characters into little bits use Berzerkers. They do need to be correctly supported however otherwise as I said right at the start of this thread they get shredded. There is very little that can stand in front of Guardsman blob squads and survive FRFSRF but Zerkers at least will not run away if there are still one or two left which menas your shooty blob squad will more than likely be in cc when they want to be shooting and then will get hit by something like a unit of CSM which means bye bye blob squad.
To answer the OP yes they are one-dimensional but that is their strength they are not generalists they are out and out close combat monster appreciate them for that. Also if you use them as ablative wounds for a Khorne Lord with a Deamon Weapon watch him destroy any unit you put in front of him (as long as you don't roll 1's).
20079
Post by: Gorechild
They are as "one dimensional" as every eldar unit, they do one thing damn well, If you try to make them do anything else then you're doing it wrong. It not a bad thing at all (I think its a very good thing), but if you want brutal assaults; field 'zerkers, if you don't then bring any of the other brilliant troop choices we have at our disposal.
21399
Post by: tedurur
Ailaros wrote:Guard. I'll get the battle report up in a couple days.
Meanwhile, I played against this player in game 3 of my first tournament, and more recently this game.
The problem is that the math only works out for berzerkers if they get the charge in. Even if they do, they're still beatable (see the second linked game).
Just one of those blobs mentioned in your report costs more than the Zerker squad tho...
23663
Post by: minigun762
Ed_Bodger wrote:I don't agree with math hammer anyway seeing as it only proves that in a totally unsupported situation *this* might happen if the player rolls mathematically accurate dice...this is rubbish.
Without changing the focus of the topic, I wanted to say that I believe math-hammer is a valuable and useful tool if you understand its basic limitations.
As for the Berzerkers, we put so much emphasis on them getting that charge in that it sounds like the only significant bonuses they have is Furious Charge but isn't the WS5 and +1A more important as they help each and every round of combat.
15111
Post by: MrDrumMachine
minigun762 wrote:Ed_Bodger wrote:I don't agree with math hammer anyway seeing as it only proves that in a totally unsupported situation *this* might happen if the player rolls mathematically accurate dice...this is rubbish.
Without changing the focus of the topic, I wanted to say that I believe math-hammer is a valuable and useful tool if you understand its basic limitations.
As for the Berzerkers, we put so much emphasis on them getting that charge in that it sounds like the only significant bonuses they have is Furious Charge but isn't the WS5 and +1A more important as they help each and every round of combat.
The reason they need the charge is because generally speaking not many people would charge into them with something that wouldn't be able to kill them quite handily ( twc, large group of beasts/beastmasters, biker command squad, hammernators, etc etc etc).
For the points zerkers just don't stand up to other CC specialists found across the rest of the 40k spectrum. I'll gladly take the points you would sink into 10 zerkers in a rhino with a champ, fist and combimelta on the rhino for 295 and pay 5 points more for a 5 man nob biker squad with wound allocation and a pain boy. Or better yet a group of 5 beast masters with 10 khymera, and 6 razorwing flocks (for 270 points) would really put a hurting on zerkers no matter who charges!
Specialists really shouldn't NEED support to do the thing they're supposedly specialized at. It's like "Banshees are super specialized CC awesomeness. . . . . if you support them with 2 psychic powers and a little fire support to soften their target. . . "
WS5 is good, +1 attack is good also, but when the things they should really be able to go toe to toe with are better for equal or less points ANYWAY, they have to get the charge to hang in the game, and even then it's not certain they will perform adequately for the investment.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
Yeah, I don't know another way to objectively compare 40k units without using statistics. They never predict an individual encounter, but they give you a framework for comparing strengths and costs.
In any case, one of the drawbacks to specialization can be that you start running into problems of being a niche unit. That's sort of the problem with berzerkers. They are pretty good against a certain band of units (like MCs, and blowing MSUs straight off the table), but their utility starts to slide in a hurry if there aren't any good targets for them to attack. For example, against plasma mech-vet guard, I could see them having a really hard time doing much of anything, given the lack of worthwhile targets.
19247
Post by: Ed_Bodger
Most things have trouble against plasma mech-vet guard thank fully though that is only one build of one army in a big game. I know you have very good Guard tactics but there are more armies out there and guard are probably the all round strongest codex at the moment. Berzerkers against many other armies work well how do I know: Mathhammer - No Experience - Yes. As I said ages ago YMMV but in general Berzerkers always make their points back and force my opponent to over react to them much like TWC or Fire Dragons.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
Math hammer 10 Plague Marines or 10Zerkers in a rhino v 10 BA assault marines in a Rhino inside. Rounding up at 2/3 of a dead marine, but carrying over positive and negative remainders into the next equation. The BA are within a priest's 6" radius, but the priest is not involved in the fight. Let's see how Plague Marines and Khorne Zerkers do.
Plague marines assplode the BA rhino 5 wounds=5/3 failed armor saves=5/6th of a failed FNP= 1 dead marine
PM charge
Assault marines swing first 14 attacks=7hits=7/3 wounds=7/9armor=7/18 dead
PM swing 27 attacks=27/2 hits=27/4wounds=9/4armor=9/8 dead=2nd dead marine remainder 1/8
BA Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead marine=1st dead marine remainder 4/18
PM Pfist 3 attacks=3/2 hits=5/4 dead marine=3rd dead marine remainder 3/8
BA swing 10 attack=5hit=5/3 wound=5/9 armor=5/18 dead marine remainder 9/18
PM swing 18 attack=9hit=9/2 wound=3/2 failed armor save=6/8 dead marine=4th dead marine remainder 1/8
BA Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead marine=15/18=2nd dead PM remainder 6/18
PM Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead marine=17/18 with previous remainder=5th dead marine remainder
BA swing 8 attack=4hit=4/3 wound=4/9armor=2/9fnp=10/18 with remainder
PM 14 attacks=7hit=7/2wound=7/6armor=7/12fnp=7/12 =6.66/12 with the 1/18th debt
BA Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead marine=15/18=3rd dead PM remainder 7/18
PM Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead marine=20.66/18 with previous remainder=6th dead marine remainder 2.66/18
BA swing 4 attack=2hit=2/3wound=2/9armor=1/9fnp=2/18=9/18 remainder
PM swing 12 attacks=6hit=3wound=1save=1/2fnp=11.66/18 remainder
BA Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead marine=15/18=4th dead PM 6/18 remainder
PM Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead marine=15/18=7th dead BA remainder 7.66/18
BA swing 2 attack=1hit=1/2wound=1/6armor=1/12 FNP=Remainder 6.66/18
PM swing 10 attacks=5hit=5/2wound=5/6armor=5/12 FNP=15/18=8th dead marine negative 3/18 remainder
BA Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead marine=15/18=5th dead PM remainder 3.66/18
PM Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead marine=15/18=9th dead marine negative 6/18 remainder
BA have no more attacks at I4
PM swing 8 attacks=4hits=2wounds=2/3 armor=1/3 FNP=negative3/18 remainder
BA Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead marine=15/18=6th dead PM remainder 0.66/18
PM Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead marine=15/18=12/18 after negative remainder=last BA dead
Final result PM defeat BA with 4 survivors
Zerkers round1
36 attacks 24 hits 16 wounds=5.3 failed armor saves=2.68 failed FNP if the zerkers could have popped that damn Rhino, but that never happened because they don't have a melta gun. Instead the assault marines assault laugh at the plasma pistols bouncing off their rhino and show how lame and 1 dimensional zerkers are. 3 Plasma pistos=2/1hits=2/3 Pen=2/9 wreck. Those are terrible odds that will result in the Zerker eating 2 melta gun shots and 8 bolt pistols which would come to 36/18 or 2 dead zerkers before they get charged. Instead we're going to have the assault marines assplode the zerkers rhino.
Assault marines assplode the zerkers Rhino with 2 melta guns
10 hits 5 wounds 5/3=30/18 dead zerker. That sucks, but it's better than the 36/18 that would come from zerkers being shot by 2 melta guns and 8 bolt pistols, so let's stick with the assploding rhino to be nicer to the zerkers.
BA charge 25 attacks= 25/2 hits= 50/6 wounds=50/18dead=80/18total=4th dead zerkers remainder 8/18
Zerkers swing 15 attacks=10 hits=5wounds=5/3 armor=5/6 FNP 1st dead ba
BA Pfist 3 attacks=3/2 hits=15/12wounds=22.5/18 wounds+8/18 remainder=1 and 12.5/18 round up to 2=6th dead zerker with a negative 5.5/18 remainder
zerker pfist 3 attacks=2hits=10/6 dead=15/6 total wounds=2 and 1/2 dead ba=2nd dead BA remainder 1/2
I4 BA and Zerkers swing
BA 21 attacks=21/2 hits=21/4 wounds=21/12 dead=31.5/18minus5.5/18 negative remainder=26/18=7th dead zerker remainder 8/18
Zerkers swing 9 attacks=6hits=3wounds=1 failed armor save=1/2 dead BA=3rd dead BA no remainder
BA Pfist 2 attacks=1hit=5/6 dead=15/18=8th dead zerker remainder 5/18
zerker pfist 3 attacks=2hits=10/6 dead=1 and 2/3 dead round up to 2=5th dead BA remainder negative 2/3
I4 BA and zerkers swing
BA swing 8 attacks=4 hits=2 wounds=2/3 dead zerker=12/18=9th dead zerker remainder negative 1/18
Zerkers swing 3 attacks= 2hits=1wound=1/3armor=1/6 fnp no dead BA remainder negative 1/2
BA power fist 2 atacks=1hit=5/6 dead=15/18=14/18 after negative remainder= last dead zerker
Zerker Pfist 3 attacks=2hits=10/6 dead=7/6 dead after negative remainder=6th dead BA
Final result BA Defeat Zerkers with 4 survivors.
Conclusions.
#1: Uber assault troops without melta guns like Khorne Zerkers do poorly in assaults against mech because they can't crack the transport.
#2: Having defensive grenades in no way hinders a unit's ability to assault, being without melta guns severely hinders a unit's ability to assault mech.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
bezerkers can take Melta Bombs to help against armor.
granted, for the cost of 10 zerkers with all the trimmings in a rhino i could get 5 assault terminators with LCs and a librarian with GoI to move them around.
the terminators are better than the Zerkers, but the Zerkers are also scoring, can be taken in much greater numbers, have a massive number of attacks each, have some shooting, can take melta bombs for killing tough mech, and are fearless(which can go both ways, but still)
Zerkers are good at killing things that don't have tons of Power weapons to kill them with. they can simply drown the enemy in attacks and/or tarpit the enemy while the rest of the force continues on to the objectives.
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Post by: Sanctjud
Isn't 8 the economical number for zerkers.
You can keep them around the magical 250 range.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
If every berserker could take a meltabomb they might have a chance. as it stands the lack of anti-armor in a berserker squad or army is their most serious limitation.
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Post by: MekanobSamael
AbaddonFidelis wrote:If every berserker could take a meltabomb they might have a chance. as it stands the lack of anti-armor in a berserker squad or army is their most serious limitation.
This. One-dimensional they are. That said, they are a seriously frightening support unit and could find a use for themselves in a good number of chaos marine armies.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
I like them for character reasons. they might be chaos's best assault unit (terminators are pretty good too so idk). the lack of more than 1 power weapon is kind of a problem too. berserkers charging into an equal number of imperial terminators for instance will almost always get wiped because they cant cut through that armor.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
then again, Zerkers arn't meant to kill Terminators.
IMO there are 2 kinds of assault units.
Assault and counter assault.
Assault units are good against units that arn't meant for CC(regular marines, T'au, Eldar, IG...)
Counter assault are good against Assault units in that they have equipment to take them down(PWs) Counter assault units make good assault units too, but are more expensive.
Vanilla Assault terminators are Counter assault units, Zerkers are Assault units.
Zerkers take out marines, Assault Terminators take out the zerkers.
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Post by: minigun762
Grey Templar wrote:then again, Zerkers arn't meant to kill Terminators.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that statement, especially against TH/ SS Terminators who shrug off the normal Terminator killing weapons like Plasma.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
if the terminators are killier point for point then whats the purpose of a berserker?
they're easier to transport. other than that I'm not sure they have much going for them. higher volume of attacks means they can kill light infantry quicker, but terminators wont take as many casualties from those units because of their dread armor so that seems to balance out too.
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Post by: Sanctjud
Zerkers score and get in rhinos.
Those are at least two ways they pull ahead of termies.
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Post by: MrDrumMachine
@grey templar
I'm pretty sure th/ss terminators are the go to beatstick of the SM army for dealing a deathblow to almost anything in CC.
By your definition the standard csm is an assault unit, except you can kit them to kill tanks, or at least have some kind of duality and multi-purpose. Which begs the purpose of the zerkers in a list.
@Sanctjud
Rhinos are frighteningly easy to lose these days with 20+ anti vehicle weapons in most competitive armies, while a cheaper transport it is much easier to kill from long range. As far as being a scoring unit you can get that from standard csm for cheaper and with a greater variety of options.
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Post by: Sanctjud
Well, I thought this section of the Zerker Hate was with respect to Zerkers vs. Termies.
If we were to expand it out to all other options, I'm sure a comment like: "Fool, why are you playing CSMs," would come up and the Edward Marines or Jacob Marines would be turning up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition, everything is frighteningly easy to lose these days. Somewhat feels more like 4th ed, where going first = likely to win. Unless we have reserve armies on the board.
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Post by: MrDrumMachine
Sanctjud wrote:Well, I thought this section of the Zerker Hate was with respect to Zerkers vs. Termies.
If we were to expand it out to all other options, I'm sure a comment like: "Fool, why are you playing CSMs," would come up and the Edward Marines or Jacob Marines would be turning up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition, everything is frighteningly easy to lose these days. Somewhat feels more like 4th ed, where going first = likely to win. Unless we have reserve armies on the board.
I guess you're right about the section I'm just trying to make sure some unsuspecting person who doesn't know what they're investing their time and money into doesn't go and buy berserkers thinking that they'll perform and then get all pissed about the hobby and wonder why their army sucks.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
Yeah, they're pretty one dimensional
That WS5 is a real nice reason to use them. That's a 3+ against marines and a 2+ against guard. Very nice. Also, they have pretty good special rules to go with them.
They can get a couple kills in most of the time from shooting. Guard and Nids drop before them, which helps in CC....
I don't use them very often, but I enjoy them when I do.
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Post by: Grey Templar
the reason you might take Zerkers over regular CSM is because of FC and fearless.
with FC they can wreak most vehicles. granted it's only on 6s, but when you have 20+ attacks agaist RAV10 plus a MB or PF...
Fearless helps against tough MCs that will usually win rounds of combat, but are ground down fairly easily in protracted rounds due to forced saves. example would be a Deamon prince or Carnifex. it will probably win each round of combat, but it will die to volume of attacks. granted you could do this with CSM, but you probably want them shooting their Special weapons instead.
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Post by: Chaos Lord Gir
Berserkers are wonderfully one dimensional, I mean how many ways can you say 'Chain-axe+ face= Victory'
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Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, they're pretty one dimensional
That WS5 is a real nice reason to use them. That's a 3+ against marines and a 2+ against guard. Very nice. Also, they have pretty good special rules to go with them.
They can get a couple kills in most of the time from shooting. Guard and Nids drop before them, which helps in CC....
I don't use them very often, but I enjoy them when I do.
still a 3+ against guard. Only Kharn ever hits on a 2+.
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Post by: MrDrumMachine
Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, they're pretty one dimensional
That WS5 is a real nice reason to use them. That's a 3+ against marines and a 2+ against guard. Very nice. Also, they have pretty good special rules to go with them.
They can get a couple kills in most of the time from shooting. Guard and Nids drop before them, which helps in CC....
I don't use them very often, but I enjoy them when I do.
Just so someone doesn't get confused and start looking for the rules WS5 wont' let you hit on 2+ vs guard, str 5 will let you WOUND but WS5 is still a 3+ to hit.
Grey Templar wrote:
the reason you might take Zerkers over regular CSM is because of FC and fearless.
with FC they can wreak most vehicles. granted it's only on 6s, but when you have 20+ attacks agaist RAV10 plus a MB or PF...
Fearless helps against tough MCs that will usually win rounds of combat, but are ground down fairly easily in protracted rounds due to forced saves. example would be a Deamon prince or Carnifex. it will probably win each round of combat, but it will die to volume of attacks. granted you could do this with CSM, but you probably want them shooting their Special weapons instead.
I don't understand when people start advocating for assaulting vehicles, I thought everybody with experience was shooting the vehicles away and then assaulting the contents?
I know that was rude sounding but come on, if you're down to that kind of defense for a unit that doesn't get rerolls to hit or first turn charges 
Against a MC of some sort zerkers do have a decent chance of killing whatever they're fighting, again though, they don't have a reliable way of getting TO the things that would be worth their time killing unless you invest in a very expensive transport or just pray and get lucky with a very crappy transport.
It's not so difficult to get into midfield and start shooting those same threats to death though with a rhino as it is to get all the way into CC with them.
For a dedicated CC unit they're just overpriced and lack all mobility to get to where they need to be.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, they're pretty one dimensional
That WS5 is a real nice reason to use them. That's a 3+ against marines and a 2+ against guard. Very nice. Also, they have pretty good special rules to go with them.
They can get a couple kills in most of the time from shooting. Guard and Nids drop before them, which helps in CC....
I don't use them very often, but I enjoy them when I do.
still a 3+ against guard. Only Kharn ever hits on a 2+.
oops, I was thinking of S5
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Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Vehicles are generally the first type of threat when it comes to assault troopers, as the majority of them trade strength for speed or more attacks (which means very little when you're face to face with a few leman russes). Berserkers are the rare few who can actually hold their own against vehicles due to their S5 and ridiculous amount of attacks on the charge (and since you never stay in combat with a non-walker vehicle, they're prettymuch charging on every turn). They stand a decent chance at getting a few penetrating hits off most vehicles and a good chance to glance some of the more heavily armored ones. And this is the bare-bones Zerker we're talking about. Give a Skull Champ a Power fist and watch even walkers fall to you.
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Post by: MrDrumMachine
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Vehicles are generally the first type of threat when it comes to assault troopers, as the majority of them trade strength for speed or more attacks (which means very little when you're face to face with a few leman russes). Berserkers are the rare few who can actually hold their own against vehicles due to their S5 and ridiculous amount of attacks on the charge (and since you never stay in combat with a non-walker vehicle, they're prettymuch charging on every turn). They stand a decent chance at getting a few penetrating hits off most vehicles and a good chance to glance some of the more heavily armored ones. And this is the bare-bones Zerker we're talking about. Give a Skull Champ a Power fist and watch even walkers fall to you.
Or better yet you could take csm and kill the vehicle in shooting and then charge what comes out! Charging a razorback and getting double tapped and flamered by 3 5 man squads is going to put a serious dent in your ability to kill anything after that first vehicle. It's one thing to like the unit but you're just fooling yourself if you think it's truly an effective way of spending 250+ points in your troops section that has zero synergy with anything else in the codex unlike say termigants and a tervigon or wyches and a haemonculi, or assault troopers and priests, etc etc.
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Post by: schadenfreude
Charging a transport means you either get assaulted by it's contents next turn, or your destroy the transport and get assaulted by it's contents the next turn.
Let's say the contents are a chaplain with 9 death company equipped with 3 power weapons and 2 power fists.
Zerkers who assault their rhino can either fail to destroy the rhino, get assaulted by the death company next turn and die, or they can blow up the rhino and get assaulted by the death company next turn and die. Either way the zerkers get their faces torn off in the next assault phase.
Assault rhinos with zerkers is a bad idea no matter how good they are at it because the contents of the Rhino are still there after the assault phase.
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Post by: Nurglitch
Berzerkers are specialized. It just means you need to bring specialized units that complement them. A Rhino with a Combi-Melta can do wonders for their charges hitting soft flesh rather than vehicle armour, although you probably want something with longer range than a Melta because you'll want to down transports before they reach the Berzerkers, and before the Berzerkers reach them!
Plasma Pistols will help against most transports, but not against stuff like Land Raiders.
You might also consider running a few Lesser Daemon units to provide screening for the Berzerkers so that they don't get charged first.
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Post by: WarOne
Nurglitch wrote:Berzerkers are specialized. It just means you need to bring specialized units that complement them. A Rhino with a Combi-Melta can do wonders for their charges hitting soft flesh rather than vehicle armour, although you probably want something with longer range than a Melta because you'll want to down transports before they reach the Berzerkers, and before the Berzerkers reach them!
Plasma Pistols will help against most transports, but not against stuff like Land Raiders.
You might also consider running a few Lesser Daemon units to provide screening for the Berzerkers so that they don't get charged first.
In my 1850 list I squeezed in 2 Zerker squads with 2 Plague Marine squads.
In this set up, the PMs have melta weapons to pop transports and the zerkers come in either to charge the contents or provide a counter-charge unit.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
Sanctjud wrote:Zerkers score and get in rhinos.
Those are at least two ways they pull ahead of termies.
very true. thats why I hesitate to say terminators are the better assault unit. Automatically Appended Next Post: ps if zerkers could carry meltaguns there would, imo, be no reason to ever take undivided guys. they're really quite good but one of the main strengths of the csm book is its ability to spam melta weapons practically everywhere; since zerkers cant do that you're really giving up alot.
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Post by: WarOne
AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanctjud wrote:Zerkers score and get in rhinos.
Those are at least two ways they pull ahead of termies.
very true. thats why I hesitate to say terminators are the better assault unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps if zerkers could carry meltaguns there would, imo, be no reason to ever take undivided guys. they're really quite good but one of the main strengths of the csm book is its ability to spam melta weapons practically everywhere; since zerkers cant do that you're really giving up alot.
It does make the Berzerkers relatively inflexible, but to each CSM troop choice, they have a place that people prefer over other units.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
yeah. I just wish they had something. even infernus pistols would be nice...
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Post by: MechaEmperor7000
Plaguies are the best cult troopers, there's no doubt about that (they actually have better survivabilities than the standard cult trooper, can cap objectives and are the absolute best when used in combination with the Rhino transports they get). However Khorne Berserkers do have their perks too. You're not gonna get a better Assault Specialist in the army that can do nearly as much as Zerkers (note that I didnt say they do them well). Also I never said assaulting transports. Any troop choice can do that. But Zerkers can and probably will run up and blow a hole in that Demolisher, Hellhound, Predator or Fire Prism in a pinch. CSMs with Meltaguns that close are not that much better than a squad of Zerkers (since it's charging range anyways).
Giving Zerkers Inferno Pistols would just be broken. There's no amount of points that can justify the hell that is gonna break loose when you have a squad of 10 zerkers pistol a transport to death then charge the chewy center.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
blood angels can already do it with actual melta guns instead of silly-assed pistols and its not breaking the game at all. plus they have jump packs fast vehicles and feel no pain. zerkers need an upgrade just to keep up.
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Post by: candy.man
Or another example: Space Wolves. Grey Hunters and Blood Claws are comparable units to Berserkers and are both able to purchase 2 special weapons (though Blood Claws are only able to purchase a second CC weapon if they are 15 men strong). Funny thing is they both can purchase a special CC weapon without having to purchase a sergeant/champion equivalent.
That being said, 2 x Melta furious charge/counter charge assault troops already exist in game and without complaints therefore Berserkers, also being a furious charge assault unit, would not be broken if it had access to special weapons.
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Post by: Mentat
I don't use any cult troops in my CSM army, but I do have respect for the berserkers. I've been tempted to make an all-berserker army just for the coolness of it. Furious charge is great and I would rank them up with the best assault troops in the game. Make sure they have a power fist (IMO), so they won't get tied up indefinately by a dreadnaught or something.
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Post by: MrDrumMachine
Berserkers would be much more worth it if they could actually go toe to toe with another codecie's dedicated CC units. It was shown earlier how they stack up against assault marines but honestly that's a bad comparison because the assault marines are barely cc "specialists". If you want to talk CC speciliasts then you need to look at what 250 points of twolf cav, nob bikers, wyches, beastmasters + beasts, incub, and almost the whole nids codex can do to those berserkers.
The answer is generally destroy them while bringing other things to the table such as really high durability, long range threat radius and duality of purpose. If you could put berserkers on bikes, give them terminator armor with something other than a godhammer transport, or even bring back some of their past survivability or extra killiness (even -1 to whatever they're fighting's save would make them worth it) then you'll find your use for them as a dedicated CC unit.
As it stands zerkers are a piss poor example of what we expect from today's cc units and you'll be better off taking plague marines or vanilla csm.
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Indeed BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD GRAAR etc etc wash, rinse, repeat.
I always have a squad of Bezerkers, I am not a particularly good player but they always do some decent damage against the enemy. The Skull Champ with PW is pretty cool and can take quite a toll.
I think they should have their Rending back though, that would really sweeten the deal
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Post by: tedurur
MrDrumMachine wrote:Berserkers would be much more worth it if they could actually go toe to toe with another codecie's dedicated CC units. It was shown earlier how they stack up against assault marines but honestly that's a bad comparison because the assault marines are barely cc "specialists". If you want to talk CC speciliasts then you need to look at what 250 points of twolf cav, nob bikers, wyches, beastmasters + beasts, incub, and almost the whole nids codex can do to those berserkers.The answer is generally destroy them while bringing other things to the table such as really high durability, long range threat radius and duality of purpose. If you could put berserkers on bikes, give them terminator armor with something other than a godhammer transport, or even bring back some of their past survivability or extra killiness (even -1 to whatever they're fighting's save would make them worth it) then you'll find your use for them as a dedicated CC unit.
As it stands zerkers are a piss poor example of what we expect from today's cc units and you'll be better off taking plague marines or vanilla csm.
Not much of that is scoring tho...
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Post by: erwos
AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanctjud wrote:Zerkers score and get in rhinos.
Those are at least two ways they pull ahead of termies.
very true. thats why I hesitate to say terminators are the better assault unit.
Point for point, berzerkers almost always come out ahead on the charge. Five CSM terminators with twin LCs and IoS are about as effective as ten berzerkers (same points cost) when charging MEQs, but start falling apart when they've got to kill stuff with storm shields or non- MEQ armor saves.
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Post by: MrDrumMachine
Why do you want you're really good CC units scoring? Shouldn't you leave that to something more durable and able to contribute even if it's on an objective that's not super close to any particular action?
Or are you just assuming they wiped whatever they fought and it's the bottom of the 5th and hoping for a 1-2 on the dice roll?
Scoring doesn't make a unit good, doing well what the unit was intended to do is what makes the unit good. Zerkers just suck at what they do and scoring doesn't help them do it any better.
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Post by: Grey Templar
zerkers are good at taking objectives. they can also hold objectives they take, unlike Terminators who have to let others hold them.
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Post by: MrDrumMachine
Grey Templar wrote:zerkers are good at taking objectives. they can also hold objectives they take, unlike Terminators who have to let others hold them.
If you're going to say it then at least give a reason for it. They're bad at exactly what you just said because they have a crappy way of getting there, they have nothing to contribute once they are there, and they're just marines who will die to any torrent fire or real CC unit.
How are they good again?
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Post by: minigun762
schadenfreude wrote:
Assault rhinos with zerkers is a bad idea no matter how good they are at it because the contents of the Rhino are still there after the assault phase.
By themselves yeah but you should be ganging up on any opponent if you can. Assault the transport with squad A then assault the contents with squad B.
Its not as optimal as shooting open the transport but it prevents you from being assaulted next turn.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
erwos wrote:AbaddonFidelis wrote:Sanctjud wrote:Zerkers score and get in rhinos.
Those are at least two ways they pull ahead of termies.
very true. thats why I hesitate to say terminators are the better assault unit.
Point for point, berzerkers almost always come out ahead on the charge. Five CSM terminators with twin LCs and IoS are about as effective as ten berzerkers (same points cost) when charging MEQs, but start falling apart when they've got to kill stuff with storm shields or non- MEQ armor saves.
disagree. the lightning claws are more decisive against meq than the extra ws and str. on the face of it it might seem that zerkers will be better for handling non- meq mobs but the difficulty those mobs have killing any terminators means the ratio of kills to casualties stays about even. while I cant comment on the numbers per squad, point for point the terminators will almost certainly win. even if they strike at initiative, enough terminators tend to survive, and their power weapons tend to be so devastating to the zerkers, that the first round is about even or slightly in the zerkers favor, but after that the terminators start getting the better of it. to say nothing of the terminators charging the zerkers, which is a complete slaughter. AF Automatically Appended Next Post: MrDrumMachine wrote:Why do you want you're really good CC units scoring? Shouldn't you leave that to something more durable and able to contribute even if it's on an objective that's not super close to any particular action?
Or are you just assuming they wiped whatever they fought and it's the bottom of the 5th and hoping for a 1-2 on the dice roll?
Scoring doesn't make a unit good, doing well what the unit was intended to do is what makes the unit good. Zerkers just suck at what they do and scoring doesn't help them do it any better.
Ideally you want everything to be scoring. It doesnt make you any better in assault, but it makes your army more flexible. I agree with you though they have their problems. They're a good 2nd tier assault unit, but not 1st class.
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Post by: Sanctjud
So... what is Tier 1?
I wouldn't label Termies in that role because Raiders (though cheaper) are not exactly a great combo compared (as that is what is going on alot) to SMurf versions of it... not even going into Edward and Jacob Marine levels.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
thunder wolves. codex assault terminators. harlequins. genestealers. you know the score. chaos doesnt have a tier 1 assault unit right now. which is part of their problem. alot of units have delivery problems. I would exclude chaos terminators from the category for other reasons than that, but I'd agree with you that they arent in it. if its just within the chaos codex Id say a good assault army will have a mix of both. you need scoring, but you need power weapons and heavy armor too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
why does your post count keep going down anyway. you were a plague lord titan princeps or whatever a few months ago werent you?
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Post by: Sanctjud
No idea... I don't really care about my post count though...I'll care when I reach 7777 though.
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Post by: Ed_Bodger
MrDrumMachine wrote:Grey Templar wrote:zerkers are good at taking objectives. they can also hold objectives they take, unlike Terminators who have to let others hold them.
If you're going to say it then at least give a reason for it. They're bad at exactly what you just said because they have a crappy way of getting there, they have nothing to contribute once they are there, and they're just marines who will die to any torrent fire or real CC unit.
How are they good again?
Berzerkers are good because when they hit a unit holding an objective they will kill it (assuming it is a troop unit) and then can hold the objective themselves, something that none of the 'tier 1' cc units can do. I have done this with mine countless times. I get the fact you don't like them but I have found them very effective and much more durable than the TWC that I use in my SW army, T5 is all very well but they are a big target that gets everything shot at them. Anyway having read your contributions all you can say is you think they are crap and having re-read mine all I am doing is saying they are good so I shan't argue the case anymore, I know they work for me and I have seen them work for plenty of other people. YMMV
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Post by: Sanctjud
Basically it puts more pressure on your enemy to commit resources into dealing with BOTH of the units on the objectives instead of just one.
But this is not really a direct way of making them kill more things or getting them there faster.
Though Mech combat units have been around a long time and have been 'good enough' as I've seen, but yea YMMV.
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Post by: Jihallah
Well... You can use them as a counter attack force instead an assault force, so they aren't really one-dimensional.
...more two dimensional
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Post by: Sanctjud
You can use them lol-tastically as a shooting role with a triple or even quad plasma pistol platform...
2.5 dimensional...only cause it has lol-tastically worked for me in the past.
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Post by: Nurglitch
Quad-plasma?
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Post by: Sanctjud
Heh, a varient of my Crap Legion.
Chaos Lord with plasma pistol.
Skull Champ w/ plasma pistol.
2 Joes with Plasma pistols.
4 more joes with just pistols.
In a rhino. Outshot the Thousand Sons most of the time. Ahh, good times.
Before anyone busts a nut, it was supposed to be as bad as it looks.
I do not suggest the above build... I only did it for 'fun', it ended up being that and more surprising than anything else.
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Post by: schadenfreude
Sanctjud wrote:So... what is Tier 1?
I wouldn't label Termies in that role because Raiders (though cheaper) are not exactly a great combo compared (as that is what is going on alot) to SMurf versions of it... not even going into Edward and Jacob Marine levels.
Genestealers, death company, lash whip & bone sword warriors, Loganwing wolf guard, TH/ SS, TH/ SS Salamanders, TH/ SS BA with a priest in terminator armor
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Post by: Sanctjud
For all those that addressed my question of 'what is Tier 1', I was not specific, but my assumption was that it was with respect to the CSM Codex in itself, which AF did go into after naming what are some obvious choices outside the CSM codex.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
csm dont have any tier 1 assault units at the moment. pretty lame for an assault themed army, no?
 its only non- csm players who complain about the counts-as-power-armor-craze. I play counts-as armies because I have to if I dont want to get my face beat every time I start rolling dice. when gw starts paying attention to play balance I'll start paying attention to wysiwyg. this from a former nazi on the wysiwyg subject.
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Post by: Sanctjud
It's a combined arms army then.
It's only this way due to age/creep, or what ever one might want to call it.
As to getting your face beat every time you roll with Chaos...only you man. Others are still doing fine and winning in tourneys with them.
CSM work for some and not for others, not too surprising.
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Post by: DAaddict
Ed_Bodger wrote:I don't agree with math hammer anyway seeing as it only proves that in a totally unsupported situation *this* might happen if the player rolls mathematically accurate dice...this is rubbish. Berzerkers are up there with the best assault troops in the game. Of course they are one dimensional they are Khorne Berzerkers FFS. Someone compared them to CSM with Mark of Khorne NO they are totally different for 9 more points you get furious charge and fearless and if you wan to smash stuff in CC you want these rather than the ability to have bolters and special weapons. If you want to melta stuff use CSM if you want to rip Infantry, MC and characters into little bits use Berzerkers. They do need to be correctly supported however otherwise as I said right at the start of this thread they get shredded. There is very little that can stand in front of Guardsman blob squads and survive FRFSRF but Zerkers at least will not run away if there are still one or two left which menas your shooty blob squad will more than likely be in cc when they want to be shooting and then will get hit by something like a unit of CSM which means bye bye blob squad.
To answer the OP yes they are one-dimensional but that is their strength they are not generalists they are out and out close combat monster appreciate them for that. Also if you use them as ablative wounds for a Khorne Lord with a Deamon Weapon watch him destroy any unit you put in front of him (as long as you don't roll 1's).
You forgot WS 5. That means they are hitting most things on 3's whereas the MOK guys are only hitting on 4's. They are one-dimensional though and a "pure" cult army of berzerkers is an easy win for an experienced opponent. OTOH nothing wrong with a core assault unit of berzerkers with Kharn. That should make for 2 enemy threats removed with him or one without him.
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Post by: AbaddonFidelis
every once in a while someone pulls a win, but its the exception rather than the rule. to review the problems with codex: csm, which have nothing to do with how you play the army, but rather what you're given to play with:
1. no psychic defenses
2. crap mobility
3. no top tier assault units
4. no top tier shooting units
5. general lack of focus
what csm players have going for them is lash and a bunch of meltaguns. nice but not enough. compared to thunderwolves, missile launcher spam, feel no pain furious jump pack marines, twin-linked melta and flamer attacks, csm are just a bunch of bozos.
AF
5435
Post by: extrenm(54)
AbaddonFidelis wrote:every once in a while someone pulls a win, but its the exception rather than the rule. to review the problems with codex: csm, which have nothing to do with how you play the army, but rather what you're given to play with:
1. no psychic defenses
2. crap mobility
3. no top tier assault units
4. no top tier shooting units
5. general lack of focus
what csm players have going for them is lash and a bunch of meltaguns. nice but not enough. compared to thunderwolves, missile launcher spam, feel no pain furious jump pack marines, twin-linked melta and flamer attacks, csm are just a bunch of bozos.
AF
I think this is a bit harsh. You make it seem like CSm are totally outclassed right now. While I do agree the codex is showing its age, its by no means a weak book.
Alot of points have been made, but let me address one in particular. People have been talking about how Berzerkers will get slaughtered by
most other armies tier 1 CC units. This is true. But the question is, if they will get wiped out, why are you fighting other top tier CC units
with Berzerkers? In my opionion, berzerkers should be used agianst non-dedicated assault units, and only thrown against really good assault
units when you have overwhelming force. Otherwise, the shooty elements of your army should focus on anything that is too deadly in hth
to try and fight with. Basically, you need to understand what berzerkers are capable of, and only thrown them into a situation they can
excel in.
I regularly play agaisnt space wloves, and this happes quite often. If I blindly rushed at the Thunderwolves and wolf lord, the berzerkers
would get killed pretty quickly. But if you soften the unit up and then charge, berzerkers can get the job done. Essentially, berzerkers are
not the "end all doom unit" when it comes to CC, but are a very helpful CC unit that fits into the CSM codex and fulfils a necessary CC role.
While they lose handily to charging trygons or wolf lords, a berzerker unit can decimate a unit of boyz, gaunts, or even vanilla marines on the
charge. When used in this role, I feel they work very well.
As for the topic of top tier assault units, CSM daemon princes are no joke. If you run two daemon princes with wings and whatever marks you want, you have two mobile powerful assault MCs, that when used in tandem, can put a hurting on most of the things in the 40k universe.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
Basically, you need to understand what berzerkers are capable of, and only thrown them into a situation they can excel in.
Actually, I'd agree that the berzerker's biggest problem is their expectations. I mean, really, they're not that dissimilar to striking scorptions, which people also consider crap because they expect too much out of them.
As for chaos in general, if I weren't so busy with my guard I'd start up an army just to prove that they are, in fact, viable. The problem I see with most chaos players is that they have terrible ideas of list-building and field command. Yes, the codex isn't stellar, but you can't blame the codex for everything when it just so happens to collect a lot of terrible players.
22749
Post by: Lycaeus Wrex
Guh? 'Zerkers are infinetely better than Striking Scorpions, the WS5 alone makes them amoungst the most effective assault troops (not elites) in the game.
As for them being one-dimensional well...yes, whats the problem with that? They do one job exceptionally well at the exclusion of all else. You don't see people complaining that meltaguns aren't amazing at mowing down horde armies because their purpose, and their specialisation, is against vehicles.
Its much the same way with 'Zerkers (or pretty much every unit in the Eldar codex) they are focussed in such a way that they do one job very, very well. WS, I and S5 with 4 attacks on the charge is BRUTAL. I don't quite understand why people are be-moaning this quality. That being said, they are fairly fragile units, you can't just throw them into the teeth of the enemy unsupported and watch them eat through an army like they could back in 3rd/4th Ed. Use them intelligently, charge the correct targets and you'll mash pretty much anything you hit.
L. Wrex
23399
Post by: thunderingjove
Ailaros wrote:
As for chaos in general, if I weren't so busy with my guard I'd start up an army just to prove that they are, in fact, viable. The problem I see with most chaos players is that they have terrible ideas of list-building and field command. Yes, the codex isn't stellar, but you can't blame the codex for everything when it just so happens to collect a lot of terrible players.
Is the Ork Codex more competitive than the Choas Space Marine Codex?
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
orks are definitly more competitive then CSM.
the army can win with nothing but troops and HQ choices.
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
Chaos Space Marines can also win with only HQs and Troops. The potential to win says nothing about their chances. Indeed, an Ork horde is basically chafe for the mowing where Berzerkers are concerned. They're one of the few units in the game that can be reasonably expected to destroy a Boyz Mob in a single turn.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
extrenm(54) wrote:
I think this is a bit harsh. You make it seem like CSm are totally outclassed right now. While I do agree the codex is showing its age, its by no means a weak book.
maybe it is. I'm aggravated that as a dedicated chaos player (for 10 years now, I guess) I have, for the first time I can remember, a book that I dont want to play pretty much at all. I think it is a weak book....
Alot of points have been made, but let me address one in particular. People have been talking about how Berzerkers will get slaughtered by
most other armies tier 1 CC units. This is true. But the question is, if they will get wiped out, why are you fighting other top tier CC units
with Berzerkers?
well you've got to fight them with somebody..... or else you cant play the book as an up close army. but thats what they're supposed to do. the only other
tactics are a flexible army, which has its own problems, and a shooty army, which csm arent very good at. the book just lacks focus.
In my opionion, berzerkers should be used agianst non-dedicated assault units, and only thrown against really good assault
units when you have overwhelming force. Otherwise, the shooty elements of your army should focus on anything that is too deadly in hth
to try and fight with. Basically, you need to understand what berzerkers are capable of, and only thrown them into a situation they can
excel in.
well yeah thats what you end up having to do because you cant fight up close against the best stuff..... even codex marines have stronger
assault stuff than csm. to me this is not right. chaos has always been stronger in assault than codex....
I regularly play agaisnt space wloves, and this happes quite often. If I blindly rushed at the Thunderwolves and wolf lord, the berzerkers
would get killed pretty quickly. But if you soften the unit up and then charge, berzerkers can get the job done. Essentially, berzerkers are
not the "end all doom unit" when it comes to CC, but are a very helpful CC unit that fits into the CSM codex and fulfils a necessary CC role.
While they lose handily to charging trygons or wolf lords, a berzerker unit can decimate a unit of boyz, gaunts, or even vanilla marines on the
charge. When used in this role, I feel they work very well.
yeah they're ok in some circumstances. thunderwolves or genestealers reck face in all those situations too. I dont know. berserkers are like
codex assault marines - they're just doomed to always be outclassed by other army's assault elements. again, they have been almost from
the beginning. they're solid assaulters, but nothing more.
As for the topic of top tier assault units, CSM daemon princes are no joke. If you run two daemon princes with wings and whatever marks you want, you have two mobile powerful assault MCs, that when used in tandem, can put a hurting on most of the things in the 40k universe.
well speaking from experience here, a pair of slaanesh demon princes will lose to alot of dedicated close combat hqs right now, because alot of them have access to a 3++ saves in addition to crazy attacks high toughness, initiative, and wounds. the demon princes just have high initiative and a 5++ save. even a pair of them will get regularly mauled by a well-kitted out wolf lord or by vulkan etc. for the hq of a close up army this is a pretty sad situation. It would be different if, like in the last book, demon princes could take demon weapons.... Automatically Appended Next Post:
To me the basic problem with the codex is mobility, not the quality of its assault troops. if your opponent can deprive you of your mobility, you cant do a whole lot, and since every fething guy has to be in a slow rhino with paper thin army its not that hard. I like striking quickly and in overwhelming force at particular places in the battlefield. it wins games. chaos cant do it.
18246
Post by: Jihallah
Being forced to rely on rhino's game after game does blow goats. If your not in a rhino, your in a raider, on a bike or a raptor, and most people are a bit iffy on them. Oh and my landraider is a Panzer IV next to a Loyalists Tiger- with 3 different flavours!
It's not so much the "power" or lack of it that kills the codex for me... its the fact its so damn boring! Ooo yay, kents in rhino's with XXX (insert your HS choice/s here) and YYY(insert your elites choice/s here).
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
AbaddonFidelis wrote:every once in a while someone pulls a win, but its the exception rather than the rule. to review the problems with codex: csm, which have nothing to do with how you play the army, but rather what you're given to play with:
1. no psychic defenses
2. crap mobility
3. no top tier assault units
4. no top tier shooting units
5. general lack of focus
what csm players have going for them is lash and a bunch of meltaguns. nice but not enough. compared to thunderwolves, missile launcher spam, feel no pain furious jump pack marines, twin-linked melta and flamer attacks, csm are just a bunch of bozos.
AF
1) Sad but true chaos has no psychic defenses, which is a bitter subject for long term tzeentch players that remember having psychic defense in the past. There are 2 mitigating factors for this weakness. First off most chaos armies are mechanized, and the deadliest of the psychic powers don't work on Rhinos. Second we are the entire reason why psychic defense is so damn important. When people say an army needs psychic defense it's because of us, and more specifically our ability to lash units into a cluster and pie them to death. Chaos players who complain about a lack of psychic defense must realize we are the bump in the night, the codex that everybody fears to face without psychic defense.
2) Not true. Our rhinos are as good as other MEQ. Smurfs, team jacob, and team edward can't take havocs or combi meltas on their rhinos, and they would all love combi meltas. Nobody else has combi melta rhinos, and anybody should love the option of choosing between a combi melta or havoc. We're not the most mobile army in the game, but we do have good mobility.
3) We don't have any top tier assault units, but we are good in an assault. The fact is on a point for point basis all of our good units are good in an assault. Because our entire army is good in an assault we can beat most armies in CC, which is one of the reasons I argue that we don't need khorne zerkers.
4) We have good heavy support. Defilers, oblits, and havocs are fine. Havocs are a little overpriced in comparison to some codex creep issues, but it's only a few points and people rarely play with more than 1 squad of them. We're not tier 1 shooting, but we have good long ranged firepower.
5) I couldn't disagree more. Lash princes, nilla marines, Plague marines, Rhinos, SGD, Oblits, Defilers, and havocs all have great synergy together. The end result is a old codex still produces a competitive combined arms list.
The real str of the current chaos codex is it's flexibility. Khorne berserkers are an inflexible unit in a codex that needs flexibility to remain competitive.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
1. well they're mechanized till the rhinos get wiped. it helps yes but everyone's mechanized so it doesnt help that much. if you're playing chaos you still have to fight against other chaos armies with scary psychic powers.....
2. combi-meltas on the rhino are good, no doubt, but they dont make the rhino any faster and they dont improve the army's mobility. I'm not sure havocs are anything to scream about but really its beside the point. its how fast the transports move, and how resilient the transports are, thats key. the guard codex put the last nails in the coffin of the rhino rush, and when the casket slammed shut we, the chaos players, were on the inside. the last codices have consistently had mobility options that were unavailable to their predecessors for just this reason. game designers recognize that it improves play balance if codices have multiple ways of delivering the goods. as long as chaos is stuck with slow, easy to kill rhinos in an edition where everyone else can deep strike out flank get a fast transport take a jump pack etc etc it will be a crap codex
3. the army's advantage in assault is that it tends to roll an awful lot of dice. the increasing prevalance of feel no pain and high toughness is making a bad joke out of the volume of attack strategy in general. in 5th what you need is re-rolls, power weapons, and improved stat lines. rolling more dice just means you have more attacks for the thunder wolves or fnp assault marines (or whatever) to ignore. I disagree that the army is good in assault. The army used to be good in assault. but the rest of the game has moved past their primary advantage in assault, which is a bunch of gimpy str 4 init 4 attacks that dont reroll anything and dont ignore armor.
4. we have as much ranged shooting as any other army I guess. obliterators are fine but instant death will continue to make them overpriced at 75 points a piece. sticking them in cover used to be a good answer, but since there's so much stuff that ignores cover now..... the only really resilient unit that chaos can draw on for shooting is the overpriced havoc squad. everyone else is finding it increasingly harder to stay alive in a game where guns that are ap1, ignore cover, inflict instant death, etc etc are increasingly common. not that chaos should ideally be blasting its foes apart at range in any case.
5. to review why I think this codex lacks focus.... what is its primary strength? psychic powers? no.... long range shooting? no... short range shooting? no.... assaults? no.... mobility? no.... the lash-plague-oblit army is a gimmick and always was. while it can still pull wins it seems pretty clear to me that, in light of the kind of stuff that it has to go up against, its getting less and less viable all the time. I dont think that flexibility is really a strength at all. what a good army needs to do is commit to a strategy and do it better than any other army. sisters and flame attacks, guard and shooting, blood angels and assaults, space wolves and missile launcher spam, etc. these strategies win because the army that employs them can focus on doing its 1 thing better than anyone else.
AF
33123
Post by: Munga
I must state that from my experience, zerkers are situational at best. Their initial assault is beautiful, but in sustained combat, they seem to start falling quickly. I have problems with them vs orks, and have stopped fielding them against the green tide entirely. I think they may work if I really soften the greenies up first, though, and am very careful about picking my fights. You can't just use them as an end-all solution to assaults, though. Packing a Khorne Chaos Lord with daemon weapon in with them does some awesome shock and awe damage, though, so there's always that. Terrain would also have a lot to do with their effectiveness IMO. We play on a table that's pretty open, and I think that in a city fight environment, or any other terrain with heavy LOS blockage, they would be WAY more effective.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, yes, you NEED to have these guys in a rhino. I pack a havok launcher on the rhino and have it fall back and rain hell after I dump them. And the Codex is fine. It gives you a LOT of options. It's up to you to learn how to use them properly.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
A codex doesn't need to be top codex in a single area to win. Space wolves and CSM are prime examples. Neither chaos nor space wolves out shoots an IG gunline or even Tau. Neither chaos nor space wolves out CC's BA or Tyranids. Both are competitive combined arms armies that have never depended on being the single best army at 1 aspect of the game. Being the single best army at 1 aspect of the game doesn't win tournaments, just ask any Tau player. Their old codex can still out shoot any army in the game, they always have been able to, they always will be able to out shoot people, and they will never be a good tournament army because they completely give up 1 aspect of the game to master another aspect.
Many chaos players like to complain that space wolves have a newer better codex and cry that chaos can no longer compete. To that all I have to say is chaos still frequently places top 3 in tournaments, and still wins tournaments. Chaos has an impressive 2004 tournament top 3 record. The same goes for the years 2005,2006,2007,2008,2009, and most importantly 2010. Thanks to codex creep most army books are like world class athletes aging in dog years, so it's incredibly impressive for chaos to still compete and win after 6 years of age. Our codex is the all time champ at winning tournaments, it's aged a bit and past it's prime, but amazingly it's still a contender. Just look at the top 5/top 10 from large tournaments and chaos has always been there, and we're still there. The one thing you don't see however is Khorne Berserkers in the army lists of those winning armies.
19312
Post by: odorofdeath
I second what Munga said; they can do some horrific things when they charge, but more and more I've noticed they really NEED that charge to decisively win the combat. I know it sounds obvious "duh all units are better on the charge LMAO LOOSR" but its even more apparent wiht berzerkers, as we pay a premium for a bonus (Furious Charge) that only even works if we charge.
I think when people see the FC+WS5+2A base they assume Zerkers are some kind of super killy mega hammer unit...and while they can be against some armies, especially those without adequate CC specialists, they really are used best as counter-chargers; believe it or not, I feel its best to NOT charge the first enemy seen; instead we have to think of the mas our insurance. ex "Well hopefully I can shoot down all those Genestealers before they get to my squishy Marines... sh*t... well a least I have a Rhino full of Zerkers to finish em' off after this squad gets munched."
Yeah. Just my opinion.
4395
Post by: Deadshane1
I think people are looking at Berserkers the wrong way.
Good/Bad....who cares...My Lord Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows!
Seriously though, I've had my share of serious competetive lists. Just for fun I knocked up a Themed "World Eaters" list that I've been playing on Vassal.
6 games in now, undefeated with some really tough/enjoyable games....and its fun as hell. Just today I managed to stomp a 15 missle launcher Space Wolf list...amazingly.
I'm beginning to think playing Berserkers is all "attitude". When I play the list I really dont care if I win or lose. In real life its because I know I'm outclassed army-wise, in game its because "My blood too...is welcome"!
BTW...vindicators support Meched up Berserkers REALLY well. Especially Demon Possessed ones. You know those Missle Launchers that are all the rage and in fashion nowadays, yea, Demonic Vindies think they're cute....then blast them! Much better than Oblits or even Defilers. That STR 10 Pie is just what you need to bully your opponent....on top of throwing Berserker filled rhino's at them at full speed!
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE OF KHORNE! RRRAAAAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
AbaddonFidelis wrote:1. well they're mechanized till the rhinos get wiped. it helps yes but everyone's mechanized so it doesnt help that much. if you're playing chaos you still have to fight against other chaos armies with scary psychic powers.....
2. combi-meltas on the rhino are good, no doubt, but they dont make the rhino any faster and they dont improve the army's mobility. I'm not sure havocs are anything to scream about but really its beside the point. its how fast the transports move, and how resilient the transports are, thats key. the guard codex put the last nails in the coffin of the rhino rush, and when the casket slammed shut we, the chaos players, were on the inside. the last codices have consistently had mobility options that were unavailable to their predecessors for just this reason. game designers recognize that it improves play balance if codices have multiple ways of delivering the goods. as long as chaos is stuck with slow, easy to kill rhinos in an edition where everyone else can deep strike out flank get a fast transport take a jump pack etc etc it will be a crap codex
3. the army's advantage in assault is that it tends to roll an awful lot of dice. the increasing prevalance of feel no pain and high toughness is making a bad joke out of the volume of attack strategy in general. in 5th what you need is re-rolls, power weapons, and improved stat lines. rolling more dice just means you have more attacks for the thunder wolves or fnp assault marines (or whatever) to ignore. I disagree that the army is good in assault. The army used to be good in assault. but the rest of the game has moved past their primary advantage in assault, which is a bunch of gimpy str 4 init 4 attacks that dont reroll anything and dont ignore armor.
4. we have as much ranged shooting as any other army I guess. obliterators are fine but instant death will continue to make them overpriced at 75 points a piece. sticking them in cover used to be a good answer, but since there's so much stuff that ignores cover now..... the only really resilient unit that chaos can draw on for shooting is the overpriced havoc squad. everyone else is finding it increasingly harder to stay alive in a game where guns that are ap1, ignore cover, inflict instant death, etc etc are increasingly common. not that chaos should ideally be blasting its foes apart at range in any case.
5. to review why I think this codex lacks focus.... what is its primary strength? psychic powers? no.... long range shooting? no... short range shooting? no.... assaults? no.... mobility? no.... the lash-plague-oblit army is a gimmick and always was. while it can still pull wins it seems pretty clear to me that, in light of the kind of stuff that it has to go up against, its getting less and less viable all the time. I dont think that flexibility is really a strength at all. what a good army needs to do is commit to a strategy and do it better than any other army. sisters and flame attacks, guard and shooting, blood angels and assaults, space wolves and missile launcher spam, etc. these strategies win because the army that employs them can focus on doing its 1 thing better than anyone else.
AF
1) doesn't EVERY mech army have that problem? kill the transports and they will lose. CSM Rhinos arn't any easier to kill then loyalist rhinos.
2) CSM rhinos arn't any slower then other rhinos. IG pretty much screw over most other codexs too.
3) Partially true, but loads of dice is still a decent way of getting past FNP. Terminators are cheaper then other races and come with PWs standard to boot. cheap PWs for those FNP assault marines.
5) lack of focus? well, every unit is decent in CC. and the army has some short ranged shooting ability. sounds alot like Codex Marines if you ask me.
33123
Post by: Munga
I think that's a confirmed case closed on the zerkers. Everyone seems to agree that they can pour on the hurt if given a chance, but sustained assault is where they go down. They're also too expensive to just use as cannon fodder. I'm thinking about getting some spawns for that job. They just need to draw fire from my havocs, so the way they charge straight ahead is not really an issue. Maybe four of them....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, don't forget all the other tools we have. Why are people focusing so much on assault with csm? Granted I started playing in 5th, so maybe things have changed, but I love blast and template weapons. There's not much more in your face than a ten man double flamer CSM squad.[list] Footslogging, you can wear them down from range, then move in for the burn and finish in assault. That's my counter for boyz, at least. With few ML and AC shots from the havocs, of course.
19312
Post by: odorofdeath
I think people are looking at Berserkers the wrong way.
Good/Bad....who cares...My Lord Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows!
Seriously though, I've had my share of serious competetive lists. Just for fun I knocked up a Themed "World Eaters" list that I've been playing on Vassal.
6 games in now, undefeated with some really tough/enjoyable games....and its fun as hell. Just today I managed to stomp a 15 missle launcher Space Wolf list...amazingly.
I'm beginning to think playing Berserkers is all "attitude". When I play the list I really dont care if I win or lose. In real life its because I know I'm outclassed army-wise, in game its because "My blood too...is welcome"!
BTW...vindicators support Meched up Berserkers REALLY well. Especially Demon Possessed ones. You know those Missle Launchers that are all the rage and in fashion nowadays, yea, Demonic Vindies think they're cute....then blast them! Much better than Oblits or even Defilers. That STR 10 Pie is just what you need to bully your opponent....on top of throwing Berserker filled rhino's at them at full speed!
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE OF KHORNE! RRRAAAAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!
Totally agree. After a few games with "real" lists I love to just decompress and have a little fun with a zerker army. Even more fun is going undefeated against my friends Blood Angels with said list! Hilariously he thinks Berzerkers are superior to everything in his codex save death company and sang guard. Funny right?
4395
Post by: Deadshane1
Munga wrote: Everyone seems to agree that they can pour on the hurt if given a chance, but sustained assault is where they go down.
I dunno, WS 5 and A 2 with 2 CCW's go's a long way in a sustained attack.
You just got to be smart with berserkers. They like to tackle things that ARENT dedicated Close combat, OR maybe close combat, but light armour and/or lower initiative.
If the target doesnt fall into those catagories, whats so difficult about softening them up with other elements of your army? Vindies, Havoc's, Oblits? Or maybe hit them with a Daemon Prince or two?
Be smart, trouble with high initiative hard hitters for CC? Do they have grenades? No? Why not park the Zerkers in that terrain right there? WS 5 and 3 attacks apeice going first isnt shabby. Get creative.
Trouble with a squad of 4 or so Thunderwolves? I doubt very much that the Wolves will survive if charged by two full 10 man squads of berserkers. "They'll never get the charge off, the T-Wolves are faster!" Tell that to my last opponent! Get creative with Rhino Tactics folks. If you're not GOOD with Rhino's, playing Berserkers is that much harder. Use them to block avenues of movement, put dozer's and EA on them, force opponents to CHARGE them to destroy them....forcing your Berserkers to deploy out of the destroyed Rhino...WELL WITHIN CHARGE RANGE FOR RETALIATION. Seen the old old westerns with covered wagons forming a circle to protect against indian ambushes....yea, rhino's do that VERY well...especially around an objective.
Learn Rhino tactics, play berserkers, have fun, get better at 40k!
KILL, MAIM, BUUURRRNNN!
32486
Post by: -Nazdreg-
I love Berzerkers.
You say they are not good against enemy CC units?
10 Zerkers kill 5 Hammerterminators in 2 Phases with 2 casualties. Yes they are more expensive, but this is a good performance. Better than many other CC units.
if you engage 4 TWC with Lord with 10 Zerkers you are a fool. 4TWC with Lord cost about the double amount of points if not more. You should rather throw 20 to 30 zerkers into this bunch. lets see who wins^^
They can hold against most CC opponents very well if you use them correctly. Of course you need the charge, but then the whole BA Book must be crappy, because they have to charge too.
if you are on high points, you can use 2 land raiders to shield all your rhinos and get past any missile launchers.
Most important: Drive as long as you can and dont charge first if you dont have to. Wait until the enemy dismounts or isolate one target at a time and shield your actions with raider/s.
World eaters are a viable army. I love to play them on VASSAL to get a funny exception to my guards and they perform very well. You just have to make a proper armoured assault and you have a heavy bunch of local superiority on the field.
You seem to expect too much from the single Zerker hm? Think a squad of 10 runs through an army? No they dont. They get bogged down by most opponents. If you assault run at least 2 squads into the target (multi assaulting as much as you can) And have some MCs up the sleeve to throw into certain spots to do decisive damage there. Kharn is also a very good option. Hitting everything on 2+ with 2d6 armour pen and s6 on the charge is great.
But even in regular chaos armies some zerkers in a land raider can be very good for an objective grabbing final charge. Just use them to hunt troop choices and you will see that enemy troop choices fall quickly to their momentum.
5435
Post by: extrenm(54)
I feel like the bottom line is, that there are certain times when having a unit with a lot of WS5 S5 I5 attacks on the charge is AMAZINGLY helpful and Berzerkers perform that role. If you can play tactically, and set up a charge or counter charge, berzerkers can fill a role an extremely important role in the chaos codex that no other unit can.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
Templar
1 all space marine codices have rhinos that look more or less the same except ba but only CSM and Templars iirc have to rely on raiders and rhinos exclusively for their mobility. The lack of drop pods fast rhinos jump pack troops etc means chaos has to move forward 12" a turn and hope for the best. Not very fast... Or subtle... Or flexible... Or good.
2 other codices have options that let them work around guards overwhelming firepower. Guard gunlines are in fact the reason I don't run CSM rhino-bound armies anymore. Plating for a draw all the time gets old. Codex bike armies and ba doa armies both handle that situation immensely better bc they don't rely on a rhino to deliver the goods.
3 if termies had stronger mobility options they'd be world class. How about a crusader or some other way to deliver them more than 5 at a time? Theyre good though no doubt.
4 focus means more than being decent. Decent fighters get wiped by great fighter. When everyone is bringing their A game being decent isn't good enough. It means your guys are outclassed. If the best you can say about a unit is that it's decent then leave it out.
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Schaden
Well I don't agree that CSM are a winning codex or that space wolves aren't a top tier close combat army. Thunderwolves have some very important advantages including mobility high toughness and wound allocation options that make them stellar in close combat. There are very few units in the game that they can't handle in close combat so I would point to space wolves as a good instance of what I mean about focus and mobility. It's true you need options to make a good list but what I mean by flexibility as a strategic objective is this idea that you can make an army that isn't a master of any 1 area and win. Im just not seeing that in my own games. Guard players don't win by investing in close combat options. That just detracts from their ability to shoot. Vulkan armies don't take alot of lascannons, it just detracts from their ability to melt and flame things. Having back up options is necessary only when you can't completely donate in 1 area. If they're necessary and you can still make a good army then great but that's s weakness that has to be made up for by a strength somewhere else.
As far as tournament results yes they continue to place but they aren't winning. Im just opposed in principle to playing an army that can't break out of 2nd place even when people use a build like plague-lash-oblit spam that is completely out of step with the background of the game and just looks bizarre to deploy. Maybe I'm missing something about the way those games are playing out.....? I mean whet specifically do you think these armies are doing that overcome the problems I mentioned?
34921
Post by: tko75
so.. should i take my troops choice of just zerkers, run at the enemy screaming blood for the blood god and then headbutt a guardsman in the face?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So.. should i take my troops choice of just zerkers, run at the enemy screaming blood for the blood god and then headbutt a guardsman in the face?
18861
Post by: Sanctjud
Sacrificing lives of a planet to Grandfather Nurgle...I don't see Edward, nor Jacob Marines doing that...
Otherwise, it's just local meta, skill, luck, army compositions, terrain, TO rulings on rules, etc. Specifically? I can only think that it's a well run oiled machine that's been out for a while and as much as it's a disadvantedge to be a standard to measure against Theoryhammerwise... it does what it does well when given the chance...and the player wielding them just has to jocky into that position.
Or... in your point of view, it's the opponents' game to lose if they are running Edward or Jacob Marines. Automatically Appended Next Post: tko75 wrote:so.. should i take my troops choice of just zerkers, run at the enemy screaming blood for the blood god and then headbutt a guardsman in the face?
I wouldn't call running at the gun line too good. But meching them up is still a good thing, if at least to saturate the field with targets that HAVE to be dealt with.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
tko75 wrote:so.. should i take my troops choice of just zerkers, run at the enemy screaming blood for the blood god and then headbutt a guardsman in the face?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So.. should i take my troops choice of just zerkers, run at the enemy screaming blood for the blood god and then headbutt a guardsman in the face?
berserkers are fine as troops. plague marines and normal undivided guys are both more flexible and plague marines at least are definitely stronger, but as troops go berserkers are fine. just be sure to compensate for zerkers' lack of anti-tank elsewhere in your army bc zerkers are pretty worthless against tanks.
5435
Post by: extrenm(54)
Correct me if I am wrong, but Didnt CSM win the Philadelphia Ard Boyz Finals?
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
maybe someone has a list of recent tournament results that we can look at. placing or even winning in one event isnt by itself convincing. what matters is how the book places over a broad spectrum of games and environments.
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Post by: Shep
I read the whole thing!
I think Abaddon is getting a little ganged up on here. But I think pretty much all of what he is saying is true.
Earlier in the thread he and others were getting a little hung up on the fact that breserkers can't beat every 'premiere' CC unit in CC. It is a troop choice, and yes... that makes a difference. 10 berserkers in a rhino can confidently head over to an objective, comfortable in their rhino until they lose it, then hop into cover and wait for the action to start. Or in a different scenario might be much more aggressive and charge something else. There are ample charge targets in most games that they can handily win against.
Abaddon points out that berserkers are slipping a little bit (not a ton) in comparison to modern dex 'choppy' troops. As new dexes come out, more and more the authors are slipping in feel no pain, armor save re-rolls, or other tweaks that kick up unit survivability to anything not a power weapon. Blood angels have the cheap and easy sanguinary priest, dark eldar wyches can easily steal a pain token from a haemonculous, genestealers will certainly have a nearby catalyst, smart space wolves can grab a banner for their grey hunters which give them an effective 66% strength feel no pain along with an increase in offensive output for a turn.
Berserkers have their WS5, they have their 3 attacks standing still, but they just have their 3+ save, and their non power weapon attacks are doing less and less to more and more units as new dexes come out. They aren't "dead" yet, I would take a unit of 10 certainly if I was playing "serious" CSM...
But CSM have another problem that Abaddon mentioned and then was shouted down. A lot of good responses came talking about properly supporting berserkers. Transports need to be opened for them, anti-infantry firepower, particularly plasma guns need to be shaken, stunned or just killed off to pave a way for them, and CSMs fire power and maneuverability is showing its age at least as much as its close combat ability.
An ork or nid army, or even a hybrid IG army knows that chaos isn't going to be able to get around them, either vertically enveloping or using speed. They also know that the only way they can get into their front lines quickly is with land raiders or rhinos.
Give chaos a thunderwolf cavalry type speed element, or give them excellent jump infantry, or usable bikes. Maybe even a drop pod. In the absence of obscene amounts of shooting, which I don't think has a very chaos flavor, They need a first wave assault element, sturdy and quick that can really press the issue right away. In that world where those units exist, then berserkers would be a great supporter of that attack or they can participate in other localized combats that aren't necessarily against enemy death stars.
Please, please give us nasty, speedy chaos spawn units and even nastier consistent possessed units. Excellent plastic models are already in place, just write the damn book! 
Ok, so back to the OP question. I think berserkers have almost all of the makings of a fine troops choice for chaos. But they are otherwise surrounded by the elements of loyalist armies that most loyalists leave at home. Real support either in shooting or preferably with premiere close combat units eludes them. Can you play and win with CSM? Obviously, yes. Is it easier to win and do you have a more consistent list with less blind spots with a modern codex? Yes.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
I love you.
14152
Post by: CT GAMER
minigun762 wrote:
Is there any big tactical decision to make with them beyond what to charge first?
No. If your thinking about what to do with bezerkers, I'd say Khorne might not be your bag...
35825
Post by: 1300Telstra
Shep wrote:I read the whole thing!
I think Abaddon is getting a little ganged up on here. But I think pretty much all of what he is saying is true.
It's the manner, I think, that riles it up. And the attitude of "switch codex". I agree with what he's saying except that chaos players should simply switch codex and play a counts as army. Not that I'm against that- I play a khorne cult using SW rules, but I really don't think that when people ask for advice for an army that they are looking for "the army you are using is  use these guys they are better". My issue with CSM's is that their codex is stagnant- like you said shep, They know the only way you can get into their front lines quickly is with landraiders or rhinos, and please please give us a pod, consistent possessed, speedy spawn...something T____T
On the subject of supporting bezerkers... isn't this where havocs shine? busting up transports to let others get at the sweet sweet goodness inside?
8620
Post by: DAaddict
Ahh... disagree. You need to be thinking because =
While great for a troop choice they are pricey.
Unless you put them in cadillacs (landraiders) they have to stand in front of an opponent for a turn coming out of a rhino. Their firepower does not soften up troops or vehicles that much.
Finally their are better CC troops that they do need to be wary off just charging headlong into. (e.g. I think I'll charge that intact unit of wolf termies with a wolf lord.)
Khorne may be happy no matter who dies but you are a poor chaos lord if you don't use them wisely and make sure they offer more of their opponents' blood than their own.
18861
Post by: Sanctjud
DAaddict, you can charge out of a rhino. So you don't have to stand them in front of the opponent. Unless you are meaning 'standing' the rhino in front of the opponent in which case you should be using terrain, other rhinos, or smoke to approach/deploy.
A poor exchange does not automaticallly mean a poor 'chaos lord' is at the helm.
@1300Telestra:
I agree, but it's really not worth getting into honestly, less personal 'notes,' the better.
15111
Post by: MrDrumMachine
Shep wrote:I read the whole thing!
I think Abaddon is getting a little ganged up on here. But I think pretty much all of what he is saying is true.
Earlier in the thread he and others were getting a little hung up on the fact that breserkers can't beat every 'premiere' CC unit in CC. It is a troop choice, and yes... that makes a difference. 10 berserkers in a rhino can confidently head over to an objective, comfortable in their rhino until they lose it, then hop into cover and wait for the action to start. Or in a different scenario might be much more aggressive and charge something else. There are ample charge targets in most games that they can handily win against.
Abaddon points out that berserkers are slipping a little bit (not a ton) in comparison to modern dex 'choppy' troops. As new dexes come out, more and more the authors are slipping in feel no pain, armor save re-rolls, or other tweaks that kick up unit survivability to anything not a power weapon. Blood angels have the cheap and easy sanguinary priest, dark eldar wyches can easily steal a pain token from a haemonculous, genestealers will certainly have a nearby catalyst, smart space wolves can grab a banner for their grey hunters which give them an effective 66% strength feel no pain along with an increase in offensive output for a turn.
Berserkers have their WS5, they have their 3 attacks standing still, but they just have their 3+ save, and their non power weapon attacks are doing less and less to more and more units as new dexes come out. They aren't "dead" yet, I would take a unit of 10 certainly if I was playing "serious" CSM...
But CSM have another problem that Abaddon mentioned and then was shouted down. A lot of good responses came talking about properly supporting berserkers. Transports need to be opened for them, anti-infantry firepower, particularly plasma guns need to be shaken, stunned or just killed off to pave a way for them, and CSMs fire power and maneuverability is showing its age at least as much as its close combat ability.
An ork or nid army, or even a hybrid IG army knows that chaos isn't going to be able to get around them, either vertically enveloping or using speed. They also know that the only way they can get into their front lines quickly is with land raiders or rhinos.
Give chaos a thunderwolf cavalry type speed element, or give them excellent jump infantry, or usable bikes. Maybe even a drop pod. In the absence of obscene amounts of shooting, which I don't think has a very chaos flavor, They need a first wave assault element, sturdy and quick that can really press the issue right away. In that world where those units exist, then berserkers would be a great supporter of that attack or they can participate in other localized combats that aren't necessarily against enemy death stars.
Please, please give us nasty, speedy chaos spawn units and even nastier consistent possessed units. Excellent plastic models are already in place, just write the damn book!
Ok, so back to the OP question. I think berserkers have almost all of the makings of a fine troops choice for chaos. But they are otherwise surrounded by the elements of loyalist armies that most loyalists leave at home. Real support either in shooting or preferably with premiere close combat units eludes them. Can you play and win with CSM? Obviously, yes. Is it easier to win and do you have a more consistent list with less blind spots with a modern codex? Yes.
A big +1 here except on one point and that's about the comparison to the premier CC units earlier in the thread. With zerkers trying to be that premier unit in the codex I think it's valid to compare across the other codecies. Personally I would prefer the possessed be similar in function to twolf cav or incubi or any other non scoring elite/fast CC unit. I mean come on, being crazy is one thing but having a daemon enhancing everything you do? Yikes.
Another note on the troop choices you mentioned that are CC oriented (wyches, wracks, genestealers, grey hunters) have some combination of a very advanced way of getting there (drop pods, infiltrate, outflank, raider) with a codex that supports these methods of transportation or duality built into the unit (meltas, dark lance on the raider, flamers, liquifiers) or survivability (or more and more all of the above). Of which zerkers get none of.
30949
Post by: AbaddonFidelis
1300Telstra wrote:It's the manner, I think, that riles it up.
what can I say.....
whats up with the new account btw? Automatically Appended Next Post: yes. give possessed thunderwolf stats. hell just make them beasts with rending. keep their 5++ save where it is and give them an extra attack, maybe furious charge, an extra attack...... now that would be solid. make the random ability an extra perk instead of the make or break roll for the unit.
35825
Post by: 1300Telstra
AbaddonFidelis wrote:1300Telstra wrote:It's the manner, I think, that riles it up.
what can I say.....
whats up with the new account btw?
yes. give possessed thunderwolf stats. hell just make them beasts with rending. keep their 5++ save where it is and give them an extra attack, maybe furious charge, an extra attack...... now that would be solid. make the random ability an extra perk instead of the make or break roll for the unit.
They thought they could send me to the whirling (Temp)est of the warp, but I cannot be (Ban)ished!
Also work is so damn boring. Being paid a week to do training I finished in 2 days is fine with me, but I can't DO anything (except browse the net every now and then when i get the chance  )
What I would rather see on possessed is the different cults giving them different stats/abilities/whatever (with a "base" undivided possessed stat line that is solid)
Bezerkers, though, as CC troop choices, I think have a fine stat line. Points and wargear options though could be better.
411
Post by: whitedragon
Deadshane1 wrote:I dunno, WS 5 and A 2 with 2 CCW's go's a long way in a sustained attack.
You just got to be smart with berserkers. They like to tackle things that ARENT dedicated Close combat, OR maybe close combat, but light armour and/or lower initiative.
If the target doesnt fall into those catagories, whats so difficult about softening them up with other elements of your army? Vindies, Havoc's, Oblits? Or maybe hit them with a Daemon Prince or two?
Be smart, trouble with high initiative hard hitters for CC? Do they have grenades? No? Why not park the Zerkers in that terrain right there? WS 5 and 3 attacks apeice going first isnt shabby. Get creative.
Trouble with a squad of 4 or so Thunderwolves? I doubt very much that the Wolves will survive if charged by two full 10 man squads of berserkers. "They'll never get the charge off, the T-Wolves are faster!" Tell that to my last opponent! Get creative with Rhino Tactics folks. If you're not GOOD with Rhino's, playing Berserkers is that much harder. Use them to block avenues of movement, put dozer's and EA on them, force opponents to CHARGE them to destroy them....forcing your Berserkers to deploy out of the destroyed Rhino...WELL WITHIN CHARGE RANGE FOR RETALIATION. Seen the old old westerns with covered wagons forming a circle to protect against indian ambushes....yea, rhino's do that VERY well...especially around an objective.
Learn Rhino tactics, play berserkers, have fun, get better at 40k!
KILL, MAIM, BUUURRRNNN!
Excellent post. This is the type of tactical discussion that is usually sorely lacking on the boards, although it is admittedly harder to quantify.
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