This isn't a rant about their sales strategy - but about their employment rules.

One of my very good friends was in my local store doing his managers training, and recently he was let go at the end of his probationary period.

The reason? Apprantly not selling enough Core Games (i.e. island of blood, assault on black reach)

This makes absolutely no sense to me - you're NEVER going to sell these sets to regulars who already have their own armies, and to make it worse, around 60-70% of your customers are your regulars! So what I'd like some opinions on, is - should this be a viable target for the employees of GW?

I think it's crazy, YMMV.

Its silly yeah but working retail sucks.. GW is no different than others I imagine, they use it to get as much work as possible just so they can hire someone else..

Repeat process over and over and never have to give anyone a raise (only the promise of one)

Yeah, that's not a gW-only issue. Managers' jobs are quite often linked directly to sales targets.

Don't get me wrong, that makes perfect sense - but his sales on other things were generaly ok (or so he told me) - it was the cores he was picked up on.

The goal of a GW store is not to sell to regulars. A redshirt's single most important task is to bring new blood into their games.

Number of customers is meaningless, it's how much those customers spend. A regular that comes in periodically and buys a box of orks is nothing compared to a brand new player whose mom forks over for the starter box. As long as you keep the new players rolling in, return customers are meaningless.

liam0404 wrote:This isn't a rant about their sales strategy - but about their employment rules.

One of my very good friends was in my local store doing his managers training, and recently he was let go at the end of his probationary period.

The reason? Apprantly not selling enough Core Games (i.e. island of blood, assault on black reach)

This makes absolutely no sense to me - you're NEVER going to sell these sets to regulars who already have their own armies, and to make it worse, around 60-70% of your customers are your regulars! So what I'd like some opinions on, is - should this be a viable target for the employees of GW?

I think it's crazy, YMMV.

As a person who has done the retail shtick- if the business is very results driven, do not expect people to get off light if they do not meet or beat projected goals.

Managers above all must be held accountable for making a store successful. Thanks to all the horror stories I hear about how GW has cut back on hours, have a very goal oriented business model, and have stores in all the strangest, out of the place locations- they need to squeeze every dollar they can from the people that work for them.

If their margin for sales (what they take home after all salaries, expenses, rent, losses via theft and damage occur) is low, don't expect to hang around for long. Only veteran workers who have had prior success may get some slack for a while, but eventually a manager will get fired or a location closed in order to try a new person or location to succeed in.

But I spend on average at least 30-40 a month on warhammer - and when you buy a core game, you "become" said regular do you not? As you'll then be buying the smaller items?

I don't know about regulars being the customers.

GW seems very keen to focus all energy on new gamers. Recruiting etc, so starter boxes, then an army each.

A big splurge of purchases in 1 year and then done, move onto next kid.

Long term customers do not seem to be part of the focus, they require more work and spend less in the allotted time period.

I do know that each GW shop employee dreads you going in there and just buying a paint or a single brush or blister, they get reviews on their sales and whether they were able to push up the sale from the paint or brush to bigger boxes of kit.

On the other hand, it's not all doom and gloom, your friend can now find a job that pays more than a paper-round and not be at the mercy of crazy sales targets.

Tell him to /friend Rick Priestley on facebook and when he does his next amazing thing, he can get a job with him.

Not to rag on your guy, but it's possible they used the sales figures as a pretense. I'm not saying he did a bad job, but maybe they decided they didn't need him after all. Or they are only interested in people that can meet their quotas, no matter how difficult.

Nor are the starter sets exclusively for new players, they're also a great incentive to start a new High Elf, Ork or whatever army. It isn't just about new players, it's about getting any player to commit to six months worth of purchases. Sure, you won't be able to sell starters to every individual customer, but across the full range of customers there should be plenty of possible sales.

Magc8Ball wrote:The goal of a GW store is not to sell to regulars. A redshirt's single most important task is to bring new blood into their games.

Number of customers is meaningless, it's how much those customers spend. A regular that comes in periodically and buys a box of orks is nothing compared to a brand new player whose mom forks over for the starter box. As long as you keep the new players rolling in, return customers are meaningless.

Yeah that one. I have enough stuff in the spare room to keep me going for years, a n00b will buy tons of stuff especially since they don't know what's actually viable so they'll happily pick up that box of Shining Spears that's been sitting on the shelf since 2002.

Kid_Kyoto wrote: a n00b will buy tons of stuff especially since they don't know what's actually viable so they'll happily pick up that box of Shining Spears that's been sitting on the shelf since 2002.

Just having picked up 2 boxes of shining spears myself, I feel hurt by that comment

To be fair, im no noob and have a plan for them, but still they aren't that bad. You just have to know how to use them

GW Managers (and other sales staff) have core box sets as there main KPI's

If you dont meet the KPI in any job then you wont stick around for long; maybe tough buts that's business for you...

I think what makes GW different is you're expected to own, build, and paint an army from each core set. That's what i find a little ridiculous, and as you're supposed to be working at work and are given very little time to work on an army during working hours, you must be painting models at home.

liam0404 wrote:This isn't a rant about their sales strategy - but about their employment rules.

One of my very good friends was in my local store doing his managers training, and recently he was let go at the end of his probationary period.

The reason? Apprantly not selling enough Core Games (i.e. island of blood, assault on black reach)

.

Guess what? It's an absolutely essential part of the job. I see the sales at my store slip when we don't concentrate on core games and bringing in new gamers, and GW is only 25% of my sales. If it's important to me, it's vastly more important to GW.

They have researched what they need to do to be a healthy company, set criteria, train staff to meet the criteria, and get rid of staff that don't meet the goals.

Not too crazy when you look at it that way.

Rule #1: Sell more lead.
Rule #2: Space Marines always win.
Rule #3: See rule #1.

Daggermaw wrote:I think what makes GW different is you're expected to own, build, and paint an army from each core set. That's what i find a little ridiculous, and as you're supposed to be working at work and are given very little time to work on an army during working hours, you must be painting models at home.

The thing is, the people who want to work for GW, by and large, have a passion for painting minis anyway and would be painting minis after work, no matter who employed them.

To the OP, It's not as if your friend wouldn't be aware of the KPI's or sales targets. I'm not commenting on if the firing is reasonable or not but your friend signed a the bottom of the KPI notice.

Daggermaw wrote:I think what makes GW different is you're expected to own, build, and paint an army from each core set. That's what i find a little ridiculous, and as you're supposed to be working at work and are given very little time to work on an army during working hours, you must be painting models at home.

And if a GW employee doesn't want to paint models at home, I can't imagine they'd be employed long. It's a job where you sell toy soldiers and teach people to play and paint. If you don't own your own army, getting one painted up isn't that much of a chore for someone at a GW store. Cheaper models than I get wholesale, some time to paint on the job, and they should know how to paint and model, or they aren't worth employing.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I do know that each GW shop employee dreads you going in there and just buying a paint or a single brush or blister, they get reviews on their sales and whether they were able to push up the sale from the paint or brush to bigger boxes of kit.

Ha! That must be why my local GW guy always smiles through gritted teeth at me. It's been years since I've bought anything GW on impulse (ever since the big price rises started really). Now I go into my local GW, look at every model I'm interested in directly (for some reason pictures on the internet or in catalogs never work quite right for me. I always misjudge the scale), take meticulous notes on the prices of each, and then plan my buys over the next several weeks/months. And in the meantime I often pop in for a single pot of paint or something, but mostly just to see if anyone is playing a game. On principle I resent up-selling tactics, so I absolutely refuse to buy anything recommended to me (because if I truly wanted to buy it, I would have already chosen it.)

He tries to be nice to me, and his business looks slow enough that it's not like it costs him anything to be civil (usually there's no one else in the store). But I can tell he's not happy with our business relationship. I must be murder on his reports.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Yeah that one. I have enough stuff in the spare room to keep me going for years, a n00b will buy tons of stuff especially since they don't know what's actually viable so they'll happily pick up that box of Shining Spears that's been sitting on the shelf since 2002.

It's a shame you think the only possible reason to buy less effective units is cluelessness. Isn't it possible a player might look for the challenge, might prefer theme over tournament effectiveness, or consider what he wants to paint over tabletop effectiveness?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/229665.page

read this thread.

sebster wrote:It's a shame you think the only possible reason to buy less effective units is cluelessness. Isn't it possible a player might look for the challenge, might prefer theme over tournament effectiveness, or consider what he wants to paint over tabletop effectiveness?

QFT

I just bought 2 boxes of "sub-par" shining spears, I love the models, their fluff and want to try them in my army, if they dont work out, atleast i'll have some really nice looking aspect warriors.

I dont' think KK is saying that's the only reason. He's just saying that Shining Spears would be a tough unit for a new player, no matter how cool they look.

When I started IG I bought three Ogryn second hand. They didn't last long and I while I still have them, I'd have been better buying a chimera with that money.

And if a GW employee doesn't want to paint models at home, I can't imagine they'd be employed long. It's a job where you sell toy soldiers and teach people to play and paint. If you don't own your own army, getting one painted up isn't that much of a chore for someone at a GW store. Cheaper models than I get wholesale, some time to paint on the job, and they should know how to paint and model, or they aren't worth employing.

You're right, painting you're own army isn't that big of a deal when you're doing it for yourself. But when you have to assemble an army for a game you couldn't give a gak about?

I only bring this up as I interviewed and was offered a job at GW a few years ago and ended up not accepting because i was told that i would be expected to buy, build and paint an army for game systems I don't play and have zero desire to play, ie. fantasy and LotR.

When you think about how little GW pays and they are expecting you to build 3 armies that you paid for, albeit at a discount, on your own time, its a bit much.

And if sales are ever important what does forcing me to have a painted LotR army do for sales?

Is a person that sells fords but doesn't own a car a worse salesman than one who built a ford in his garage? I don't think so.

No, I think his implication that the models have been on the shelf since 2002 make his point clear about the SS and I disagree.

I know of two people locally to me that have bought Aun va within the past 2 weeks, just to paint and have some fun fluff battles with. Just because he is considered one of the worst models to play doesn't mean only noobs will buy him. They like a challenge and have painted most of their things.

He is just painting everyone with the same brush.

Lol, right. He's making statements about people without a full appreciation of the facts. You can say that, because you're a magically mind reader and not doing, well, basically the same thing he is.

It was a joke. Anybody who works in sales does what they can to unload stale inventory. It doesn't matter why they bought the damn things, you're just happy to make a sale.

People's veiws on GW really do amuse me.

Yes, the managers of the store have sales targets and if they fail to meet said sales targets their postion will be at risk, espically during a probationary period. This is the same for all retail work, and always has been. Also we are in the middle of a recession, thier are lots of skilled sales people out of work, why employ a sub-par enployee when their is such a high calabre of staff in the current job market. Sorry to hear your friend lost his job, but it's a tough market place.

Regarding the comments about staff only wanting to sell to new customers is crazy talk. Yes the bulk buyers are a key to sales figures but the regular bread and butter money comes from the regulars who spend £20-£30 a month. Without them GW would crash and burn fast. Also if they didn't want the regulars why do they cater for them so much, gaming tables you can use, painting stations, all manor of things designed for the regular customer is right their in the store.

I personally never get the hard sell from my local GW staff, maybe it's a good shop, or maybe they can tell i'm in it for the long hall so bugging me aint going to work. I dont even get asked the 'you need any glue or paints' comment when i go to a till. Yet Boot's still ask me if i want a Boots card everytime i top up on toiletries.

Polonius wrote:Lol, right. He's making statements about people without a full appreciation of the facts. You can say that, because you're a magically mind reader and not doing, well, basically the same thing he is.

No, im reading exactly what he has written. What he has made is a sweeping statement about models and sales that he may or maybe not regard as worthy of purchasing, regardless of circumstance, which is incorrect on a grand scale.

But here I am caught in the semantics of a situation that is neither here nor there.

You know what, you're right. I'm going to pencil "KK being mean to Shining Spears" into Polonius's Big List of Atrocities right above Apartheid and right below Phil Hartman's murder.

Or should it be higher?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Magc8Ball wrote:The goal of a GW store is not to sell to regulars. A redshirt's single most important task is to bring new blood into their games.

Number of customers is meaningless, it's how much those customers spend. A regular that comes in periodically and buys a box of orks is nothing compared to a brand new player whose mom forks over for the starter box. As long as you keep the new players rolling in, return customers are meaningless.

Yeah that one. I have enough stuff in the spare room to keep me going for years, a n00b will buy tons of stuff especially since they don't know what's actually viable so they'll happily pick up that box of Shining Spears that's been sitting on the shelf since 2002.

Hey! I bought Shining Spears cos they look cool... alright?

liam0404 wrote:This isn't a rant about their sales strategy - but about their employment rules.

One of my very good friends was in my local store doing his managers training, and recently he was let go at the end of his probationary period.

The reason? Apprantly not selling enough Core Games (i.e. island of blood, assault on black reach)

This makes absolutely no sense to me - you're NEVER going to sell these sets to regulars who already have their own armies, and to make it worse, around 60-70% of your customers are your regulars! So what I'd like some opinions on, is - should this be a viable target for the employees of GW?

I think it's crazy, YMMV.

Thats what retail is - sales. Welcome to Life (TM).

@Frazzled

Yeah I get that - but what my gripe is is that its his core game sales he's been discarded for - surely any combination of sales which lifts you to your sales target is a good thing?

Polonius wrote:You know what, you're right. I'm going to pencil "KK being mean to Shining Spears" into Polonius's Big List of Atrocities right above Apartheid and right below Phil Hartman's murder.

Or should it be higher?

No thats about right.


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liam0404 wrote:@Frazzled

Yeah I get that - but what my gripe is is that its his core game sales he's been discarded for - surely any combination of sales which lifts you to your sales target is a good thing?

NO.

The only thing that matters is what he's incentivized for.

liam0404 wrote:@Frazzled

Yeah I get that - but what my gripe is is that its his core game sales he's been discarded for - surely any combination of sales which lifts you to your sales target is a good thing?

If he is not hitting his 'core game' sales then he isn't hitting his target. Any combination doesn't come into it. Its what GW wanted that matters.

As an example I was binned by an employer when I failed to reach my new business target by 25%, regardless of the fact that sales from my existing business was running above my overall sales target for the year. I had failed in a Key aspect of my KPIs.
If my 'core' sales had failed by this margin though I would have probably jumped off a bridge due to embarassment.

Someone fix the title! "Are Games Workshops Crazy?" or "Is Games Workshop Crazy?"

Sorry, been bothering me

I have nothing else to add in except maybe once or twice they do mention their starter sets when I'm at a store

Title changed

liam0404 wrote:Title changed

Thank you!

When I worked for GW 1990 to 1993 (Reading) the policy was simple.....keep the core gaming community in the store for the shortest period of time possible......gaming tables were only permitted for starter games.....games night on a Thursday was the only night for the core gamer.......

It was simply set-up to introduce new blood and sell starter sets

I remember one time when I was sat down at the painting table talking to a couple of core gamers and the Area Manager turned up and I got a rollicking for engaging core gamers in 40k banter......

These were Dark Days indeed

liam0404 wrote:@Frazzled

Yeah I get that - but what my gripe is is that its his core game sales he's been discarded for - surely any combination of sales which lifts you to your sales target is a good thing?

In a word. NO.

The other sales are easier to get. New product out that week being the low hanging fruit. Those sales occur because someone did the work to make the core sales. Core game sales take the most time, and you have to work with new people, vs. selling your buddy some dark eldar.

And it doesn't take an explanation even: The job requirement is X. Doing Y does not let you keep your job. This applies to most businesses.

On the 'own and paint 3 armies' part of it: Possibly they see that as a way to weed out people that don't want the job bad enough, and are resistant to learning other systems. Again, selling 40k is easy. Selling "the other two systems I don't give a gak about" is a little tougher.

My stores are half comic books/GN and half games. I used to hire 'good workers' and try to train them. Over 20 years I've found that everyone is "Willing to learn". They lie. They don't read comics and don't want to. They don't play warhammer and don't want to. When they say they read comics and I quiz them, they admit to watching cartoons and movies. Games means Halo and Warcraft. If I hire someone new, they better already read comics weekly or they play a lot of games, including warhammer.

liam0404 wrote:This makes absolutely no sense to me - you're NEVER going to sell these sets to regulars who already have their own armies, and to make it worse, around 60-70% of your customers are your regulars!

I'm not sure why you have this perspective. GWS has been unambiguous in their actions (if never in statement) that their business model is dedicated to a rapid churn of customers. So not only is is not surprising he couldn't move core box units to regulars, that's not really corporate's expectation either - he's supposed to be hooking new customers, milking them of $250 USD or the equivalent in quid/pounds/whatever the hell brits use for money, and then move on to the next customer. I don't believe they have ever done anything indicating otherwise, or that long term customers are of any interest to them.

I'm not endorsing this model. Nor am I endorsing the sacking of a person whom I don't even know, but I would like to point out that you should be able to move at least some AOBR boxes even to regulars as Space Marines are far and away the most popular faction, and it's a value strictly for either faction and ebaying the rest.

Daggermaw wrote:

And if a GW employee doesn't want to paint models at home, I can't imagine they'd be employed long. It's a job where you sell toy soldiers and teach people to play and paint. If you don't own your own army, getting one painted up isn't that much of a chore for someone at a GW store. Cheaper models than I get wholesale, some time to paint on the job, and they should know how to paint and model, or they aren't worth employing.

You're right, painting you're own army isn't that big of a deal when you're doing it for yourself. But when you have to assemble an army for a game you couldn't give a gak about?

I only bring this up as I interviewed and was offered a job at GW a few years ago and ended up not accepting because i was told that i would be expected to buy, build and paint an army for game systems I don't play and have zero desire to play, ie. fantasy and LotR.

You didn't think that not playing two of the three core games was a problem?

I've worked in sales, and I know people who work at GW - GW is MUCH more stringent and unforgiving than any other sales job I have worked.

Which is to be expected - they're basically fighting a losing battle in an era filled with people who have iPhones as portable gaming devices, and big business family friendly video game consoles (ie Kinect, Move, Wii). I mean, they're in the process of dumping the Academy at the present moment because they can't even afford to hire more than one person at most stores - that's bad.

I foresee the stores just closing down in favor of 100% internet shipment/warehousing, which frees up more cash for advertising. A great deal of GW stores I see or hear about are constantly having financial issues.

Is Gw crazy?

Their staff certainly look like they are......

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=13700025a

I used to work as a cashier in Ladbrokes (a betting shop) and we got monthly sales targets... the world makes no sense

bagley wrote:I used to work as a cashier in Ladbrokes (a betting shop) and we got monthly sales targets... the world makes no sense

Did you have some deal of the day to push? Like how much mystery time would be played at Old Trafford? how many bookable offenses Wenger wouldn't see?

The mind does boggle.

I see how the GW shops could be better risk vs reward situations for them, however I think that the FLGS allows them to hold less risk upon themselves. And interwebs is definatly win-win to the upmost.

Crazy like a fox...

Seriously, having had those kinds of jobs before hand, I gotta say, retail is a pretty god-awful place to be. Between Sears and the horrible little mom-and-pop computer shop that somehow survived the 90s, I saw my fair share of brainwashing, quotas (secret or otherwise), doublespeak, and at times outright blatant lies from management. I can't really blame them though, in this day and age, you gotta do whatever you can to not go under while in the pitch black shadow of the likes of Wal-Mart.

Your friend would do well to take some advice, and either get a big-boy job, or snag something in food service. My first job was making pizzas. It's was the least stressful one out of all of the minimum wage jobs I had, and the waitresses were hot. Landing something other than McDonalds means you usually don't smell too much like fries either.

mikhaila wrote:

liam0404 wrote:@Frazzled

Yeah I get that - but what my gripe is is that its his core game sales he's been discarded for - surely any combination of sales which lifts you to your sales target is a good thing?

In a word. NO.

The other sales are easier to get. New product out that week being the low hanging fruit. Those sales occur because someone did the work to make the core sales. Core game sales take the most time, and you have to work with new people, vs. selling your buddy some dark eldar.

And it doesn't take an explanation even: The job requirement is X. Doing Y does not let you keep your job. This applies to most businesses.

On the 'own and paint 3 armies' part of it: Possibly they see that as a way to weed out people that don't want the job bad enough, and are resistant to learning other systems. Again, selling 40k is easy. Selling "the other two systems I don't give a gak about" is a little tougher.

My stores are half comic books/GN and half games. I used to hire 'good workers' and try to train them. Over 20 years I've found that everyone is "Willing to learn". They lie. They don't read comics and don't want to. They don't play warhammer and don't want to. When they say they read comics and I quiz them, they admit to watching cartoons and movies. Games means Halo and Warcraft. If I hire someone new, they better already read comics weekly or they play a lot of games, including warhammer.

Ha. I wish I lived closer to you....I'd be your perfect employee. Well, cept I refuse to play Snit's Revenge....silly game.


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This is how former GW CEO Ernie Baker and some other GW execs once explained it to me....

A new gamer is worth at least 2000 dollars a year to a store.
A 2nd year gamer is worth 1000 dollars.
A 3rd year gamer is worth 500.
A 4th year gamer is worth 250...

and so on.

Thus, the emphasis on recruiting new gamers over retaining old ones. I worked Direct, which sold bitz, limited edition items and deals etc. While we had record years, our sales were probably only about 2-3% and not worth the cost, which is why Bitz went away.

When I worked retail, the emphasis on training was always on doing great demo games, and selling core sets.

Unlike most people here, I had a great time in retail and when I moved up in the company, I worked with alot of great people.

Hitting KPI's is part of the job description, and to be honest, decent Intro Games, and not missing opportunities means they can be hit. Takes a little effort, but trust me, they are not your usual retail targets.

Me, I failed because despite walloping KPI's in all the stores I was in, I just wasn't that good at planning for the future.

So now, I works in Insurance!

Squig_herder wrote:No, I think his implication that the models have been on the shelf since 2002 make his point clear about the SS and I disagree.

I know of two people locally to me that have bought Aun va within the past 2 weeks, just to paint and have some fun fluff battles with. Just because he is considered one of the worst models to play doesn't mean only noobs will buy him. They like a challenge and have painted most of their things.

He is just painting everyone with the same brush.

I bought Aun'Va for a special project and I'm hardly a n00b.

liam0404 wrote:This isn't a rant about their sales strategy - but about their employment rules.

One of my very good friends was in my local store doing his managers training, and recently he was let go at the end of his probationary period.

The reason? Apprantly not selling enough Core Games (i.e. island of blood, assault on black reach)

This makes absolutely no sense to me - you're NEVER going to sell these sets to regulars who already have their own armies, and to make it worse, around 60-70% of your customers are your regulars! So what I'd like some opinions on, is - should this be a viable target for the employees of GW?

I think it's crazy, YMMV.

Ye this is normal I work in the automotive industry and the delership where I work had a salesman laid off because he wasn't selling enough. even I live under the fear of targets in the current economic climate, also if you are still in the probationary period a company can just let you go no nedd for severance pay or notice etc

You didn't think that not playing two of the three core games was a problem?

Not when i'm expected to be a salesman and not a hobby liason. Just because I don't play fantasy doesn't mean i can't read the rules and know how to sell it.

And not playing two of the three core games wasn't an problem for GW. I was told i would just have to start playing them, and paying for them from my own money. Its at that point i said no thank you.

So.. I have a phone interview for the trainee manager thing GW do tomorrow...

I probably shouldn't have came into this topic. Oh well!

Just tell them you will sell lots of starter boxes and you'll be fine

Bean counters and their targets make the world so much a happier place.

Let me just say I deeply regret that my comments seemed to imply that only a n00b would buy Shining Spears.

It was a hasty remark brought about by a long day at work and one too many Yoo-Hoos.

I should have said that only a n00b or a loser would ever buy Shining Spears.

I hope this goes some way to repair the damage I caused.

Daggermaw wrote:

You didn't think that not playing two of the three core games was a problem?

Not when i'm expected to be a salesman and not a hobby liason. Just because I don't play fantasy doesn't mean i can't read the rules and know how to sell it.

And not playing two of the three core games wasn't an problem for GW. I was told i would just have to start playing them, and paying for them from my own money. Its at that point i said no thank you.

Heh you get almost all you need for free.

My question is how GW store are surviving in this market, when the job market is going to hell? If the goal for GW store is to target new bloods, they are going to see that they are focusing their reasources on the wrong market area.

deejaybainbridge wrote:Yet Boot's still ask me if i want a Boots card everytime i top up on toiletries.

Huh?

It's not just in retail sales that people get canned for not hitting their quota. I've had quite a few of my tattoo artist friends tell me horror stories of going to work in a new shop only to be informed that if they don't hit a total of $XXXX.XX every week that they will be fired. During the busy times of the year, it's not that difficult to attract those numbers, but when you're in the off season (and everywhere has one) it can be a nightmare! Might not be right, fair or just, but I'd like to know where you can find any of that in this day & age!

Don't get me wrong, I used to work in clinton cards (greetings card retailer) and the pressure of the add-On sale was immense. But we were never told we had to sell X amount of item A. That's what I Can't get my mind around.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Let me just say I deeply regret that my comments seemed to imply that only a n00b would buy Shining Spears.

It was a hasty remark brought about by a long day at work and one too many Yoo-Hoos.

I should have said that only a n00b or a loser would ever buy Shining Spears.

I hope this goes some way to repair the damage I caused.

I see what you did there, and I approve of it.

liam0404 wrote:@Frazzled

Yeah I get that - but what my gripe is is that its his core game sales he's been discarded for - surely any combination of sales which lifts you to your sales target is a good thing?

Nah, not every sale is equal. As people have pointed out when you sell a core box set you're committing a guy to spending $500 or more on other stuff over the year. A lot of the skill in managing a retail business is looking past total sales figures, which can include a lot of stuff that the salesman really can't control, and looking at stuff he can influence, especially stuff that will lead to other sales.

Magnalon wrote:I foresee the stores just closing down in favor of 100% internet shipment/warehousing, which frees up more cash for advertising. A great deal of GW stores I see or hear about are constantly having financial issues.

I'm not so sure. One of GW's key strengths is the perception those mainstream stores give. Parents are a lot more likely to buy into something for their kid when it's run out of a store on mainstreet.

I can certainly see a reduction in the total number of stores, if they determine specific store running costs aren't justified by local sales levels. As I understand that's already going on.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Bean counters and their targets make the world so much a happier place.

Cheers! I like to think we make a difference.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I hope this goes some way to repair the damage I caused.

I was being sarcastic you fool!

Seriously, this obsession with targets is a problem.
Over the previous decade it has become almost universal. Targets seem to be de rigour for for all areas of work and often inappropriate.

The Ladbrokes example above is wonderful. How do they implement that and how is it compatible with their "Gambling Aware" policy?

We have seen the detrimental effects of targets in all areas of the Public Sector in the UK.
I am not saying there is no use for targets and understand they have a positive purpose in retail. But the use of targets need to be selective.

I would assume that most prospective GW employees don't want to sell or think that because people are interested in the product they will get easy sales.

You enjoy the hobby and think working for GW will be fun.

I wonder, do GW incentivise their staff for hitting targets, other than ensuring that the job isi safe for another month.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I should have said that only a n00b or a loser would ever buy Shining Spears.

Why I would like to thankyou for setting such a great example for other posters to feel free to troll/slander other peoples' purchases.

So from the post above, are you classing me as a loser? I would love to have a publicly posted response.

Joined in 2008 and you still don't get Kyoto's style of humour.

I'll show you! You just wait, 5th eldar codex will make shining spears into gods!

If you paint your spears with shining gold, will that make you a noob since you will have shining spears, even if you didn't buy shining spears?

Squig_herder wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I should have said that only a n00b or a loser would ever buy Shining Spears.

Why I would like to thankyou for setting such a great example for other posters to feel free to troll/slander other peoples' purchases.

So from the post above, are you classing me as a loser? I would love to have a publicly posted response.

It would appear so.
Shining spears... lets just say there are better things to buy with the money and leave it at that, although they are interesting models they seem more like a display piece.

n0t_u wrote:


It would appear so.
Shining spears... lets just say there are better things to buy with the money and leave it at that, although they are interesting models they seem more like a display piece.

*Insert Darth Vader "NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" picture*

Although it does explain why I seem to just use my shining spears more as Jetbikes and not as Spears. All GW need to is allow Aspect Warriors to take Warlocks. A Warlock on Jetbike with Enhance would do wonders for Shining Spears against MHQ

Thread title change:

Are people who buy Shining Spears Crazy?

Aeon wrote:GW Managers (and other sales staff) have core box sets as there main KPI's

If you dont meet the KPI in any job then you wont stick around for long; maybe tough buts that's business for you...

That's well and good if you are failing to turn customer's through the door into sales, however if the customer's aren't coming through the door it's a bit hard to reach the KPI. Which isn't the redshirts fault.

Wolfstan wrote:

Aeon wrote:GW Managers (and other sales staff) have core box sets as there main KPI's

If you dont meet the KPI in any job then you wont stick around for long; maybe tough buts that's business for you...

That's well and good if you are failing to turn customer's through the door into sales, however if the customer's aren't coming through the door it's a bit hard to reach the KPI. Which isn't the redshirts fault.

If the KPIS are truly FUBAR its up to employees to speak to store managers, who speak to area managers who speak to Sales directors. if HO wont listen the best thing to do is bug out before you get kicked out.

Besides, it would be up to the shop staff to get more out of every customer that comes through the door, (if said staff are motivated by attaining sales).

Ouze wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Let me just say I deeply regret that my comments seemed to imply that only a n00b would buy Shining Spears.

It was a hasty remark brought about by a long day at work and one too many Yoo-Hoos.

I should have said that only a n00b or a loser would ever buy Shining Spears.

I hope this goes some way to repair the damage I caused.

I see what you did there, and I approve of it.

I see your approval, and second it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Joined in 2008 and you still don't get Kyoto's style of humour.

The internet is serious business, remember?

Ketara wrote:The internet is serious business, remember?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I was being sarcastic you fool!

I had no idea!

Seriously, this obsession with targets is a problem.
Over the previous decade it has become almost universal. Targets seem to be de rigour for for all areas of work and often inappropriate.

It's always a case of execution, and there's no denying targets can set undesired incentives as well as desired ones. But instances of poor execution don't stop KPIs being a useful tool for management. It's also important to remember not all targets are about meeting a KPI or getting fired, many are tied to remuneration schemes and sometimes not even things that strong.

We have seen the detrimental effects of targets in all areas of the Public Sector in the UK.

Speaking as a guy in government, I've found when complained about targets are at least half the time unpopular because they're actually directing staff towards doing what they were put there to do.

Again the simple answer is just that retail sucks and you're employed to be exploited at minimum wage :p

But working retail is better than paying money for shining spears

As a side note, what is the discount for GW employees?

I do agree with one of the posters earlier (Mecha-Hitler) that having to pay for three of your own armies sucks.

If the discount is sucky (10%), that's a Pyramid Scheme, son!

While my sympathy goes out to the OP's friend, as I was canned from my first job for the same thing, I have to agree with most of the other posters in saying that GW is far from crazy. Just look at what happened to dungeons and dragons...creative ideas and good inventions mean diddly squat next to profit. It leaves a bad taste in the mouths of those of us who remember the good old days, but the sad truth is that GW can either be a "nice" company that only cares about making players/employees happy, and quickly go out of business, or it can be a "smart" company and scrape by.

Capitalism baby, ya gotta love it.

The stock market shows that the most successful companies are those which balance the needs of all stakeholders including staff.

GW have two things going for them.

One. They only need to grub as much money as possible during the first year or two until Little Johnny gets bored or disillusioned with GW games. He won't be there in year three, so there's not point maintaining a long term relationship.

Two. Ditto as regards the majority of the staff.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:My question is how GW store are surviving in this market, when the job market is going to hell? If the goal for GW store is to target new bloods, they are going to see that they are focusing their reasources on the wrong market area.

Actually, it's more important to keep new blood coming in. That's your bread and butter, and more importantly, your expansion potential. This is true of *all* companies, not just GW. Why else would you advertise anything at all ever?

There was a mention somewhere up the thread of new blood being a less controlable thing. Well, in my experience, yes and no. Let's use GW as an example.

I get one kid into the Store, and run intro activity. Kid paints his first marine under my tutelage, then I run him through a kick arse intro game, where his mighty Space Marine Dreadnought smashes the Ork Warboss into the dirt, carrying the day for the badly mauled Space Marines. Having also pitched this to his parents (always the trick) they walk out with Assault on Black Reach, a Hobby Starter Set, Chaos Black Spray, and the latest White Dwarf. Oh, and a Beginner's Academy Card, plus invites for his friends to come down.

See what I did there? You get your new bloods to bring their friends down, and you pitch it to the parents as a wholesome, interactive, sociable hobby which doesn't involve sitting in front of a Laptop or Telly for hours at a time. Kid enthuses his friends (we've all been there I'm sure. Well, I say all...most is possibly more accurate) and the stamp of Parental Approval goes a long, long way.

And yes, this does work. Extremely well. That's how you keep new blood coming in. Snowball theory.

Mr. Mystery just nailed it.

In fact I've seen GW employees pitch Tau because the child liked anime, and said they were one of the best armies in the game.

The employee knew darn well what he was doing. He was straight lying, and making a sale. I don't think he cares if the kid comes back with his $500 worth of Tau and says "they suck" - all sales are final. NEXT!

Yeah not so much. You sell THE Hobby, not YOUR Hobby. It's getting this wrong that many complaints stem from.

If the kid likes Anime, the Tau to a degree do suit that visual style. I daresay the kid doesn't give much of a hoot whether the army is truly killer or not, he likes the models, and wants to play the game. Tau are indeed one of the harder armies to wield successfully, and this isn't something you should gloss over. Make clear that being a tactical challenge is not a bad thing though. Dealing with the 'what's the best team' question is an artform to itself.

Magnalon wrote:Mr. Mystery just nailed it.

In fact I've seen GW employees pitch Tau because the child liked anime, and said they were one of the best armies in the game.

The employee knew darn well what he was doing. He was straight lying, and making a sale. I don't think he cares if the kid comes back with his $500 worth of Tau and says "they suck" - all sales are final. NEXT!

In the hands of kids all armies are going to suck.

A GW hobby centre is not the hub of the current meta, Shining Spears will make regular starring appearances.

The staff probably get carried away, they say everything is the best. One try hard in my local store was, golly gosh, collecting the same armies as I was, that I strung him along over a few weeks with him never really sure if he has spoken to me or not helped. besides, GW exist to sell everything they can. If I had a customer interested in anime, and battle suits, and I was working for GW or any other FLGS I would be bigging up Tau till I was blue in the face.

Tau are awesome, so are Orks, Witchhunters, Daemon Hunters, Ass hunters, Eldar, marines (in all their flavours), Necrons.....

Some might, but as I mentioned above, honesty is the best policy.

Indeed, a key thing when working for GW (and part of your job) is tell the customer what they need, sell them what they want. So kid picks up Shining Spears, I engage him in conversation about them. Obvious openers like 'looking to add a little speed to your Eldar' or 'is that your next unit then?'. Take off from there. Find out what he likes about them, what he has in his army. Advise from there. If he still wants Spears, sell them to him. If not, rinse and repeat. Really helps if the parents are there too!

Hell, I used to try and put kids off buy big metal kits in favour of plastic, even if it meant a smaller sale. Is all about their Hobby Gratification. That, and I if ever have to point together another sodding Hive Tyrant that's not mine....I will kill again.

Mr Mystery wrote:'looking to add a little speed to your Eldar, eh? nudge nudge, wink, wink, say no more.'

I agree about the new blood idea. Mr Mystery hit upon the fact that if you sell the AoBR or IoB to a new player, you sell it along with the hobby starter set, spray paint, the codex of the army in the box the kid likes and, in the case of HE or SM another box of spearmen or tac. marines to make the army legal. That's a lot of money, and it's been done to most of us. We may now buy our stuff from another games company or whatever but we were big contributors once upon a time.

Another thing Mr Mystery said is that he'll invite along his friends, this is very likely to happen, the kid'll want people hoe knows to play the game with, you don't get many new players walking into the store for a pick up game. I also remember a while back GW had this offer in which, if you introduced a friend to the hobby, then you got a £10 or something voucher for each of you, further adding to the pull of potential new prof... I mean players.

Maledictus wrote:While my sympathy goes out to the OP's friend, as I was canned from my first job for the same thing, I have to agree with most of the other posters in saying that GW is far from crazy. Just look at what happened to dungeons and dragons...creative ideas and good inventions mean diddly squat next to profit. It leaves a bad taste in the mouths of those of us who remember the good old days, but the sad truth is that GW can either be a "nice" company that only cares about making players/employees happy, and quickly go out of business, or it can be a "smart" company and scrape by.

Capitalism baby, ya gotta love it.

As I am exploring in a research thread in the DCM forum GW are certainly not scraping by I have been analysing their financial statements for 2009 and 2010 and they are making a big (sorry I mean BIG) profit.

Not even the extra models. The contents of a starter box and HSS are enough to show off the whole gamut of the Hobby. From there on in, you start to get a feel of what you really like in the wider Hobby, and choose your next step from there.

Ed_Bodger wrote:

Maledictus wrote:While my sympathy goes out to the OP's friend, as I was canned from my first job for the same thing, I have to agree with most of the other posters in saying that GW is far from crazy. Just look at what happened to dungeons and dragons...creative ideas and good inventions mean diddly squat next to profit. It leaves a bad taste in the mouths of those of us who remember the good old days, but the sad truth is that GW can either be a "nice" company that only cares about making players/employees happy, and quickly go out of business, or it can be a "smart" company and scrape by.

Capitalism baby, ya gotta love it.

As I am exploring in a research thread in the DCM forum GW are certainly not scraping by I have been analysing their financial statements for 2009 and 2010 and they are making a big (sorry I mean BIG) profit.

It's funny, because people posted GW's financial statements and quite a few people came to the opposite conclusion than you, what with once you realize the vast majority of that "big" profit is going into supporting their storefronts they're not really making a "big profit".

Mr Mystery wrote:Not even the extra models. The contents of a starter box and HSS are enough to show off the whole gamut of the Hobby. From there on in, you start to get a feel of what you really like in the wider Hobby, and choose your next step from there.

I suppose. Though i use evidence from when i was in my FLGS last. There was a kid who was playing through the AoBR game with a member of staff as the marines (yes, there is now more of them) and toward the end of the battle the parent's of the kid came in and watched. The game finished and the kid went to look around the store, at the games we were playing etc while the staff guy talked to his parents about the hobby. So he said that they'd obviously need the starter set, as it has the models and the rules, he then said they'd need the hobby starter set, and then finally he said he should get a box of scouts to make the army list. £100 right there. Actaully though, he didn't push sales as much as i thought, the kid said that he should get the codex, but the staff guy said, no i'll just write down the rules for the scouts and then you'll have all the rules you need, not a steroytipical GW employee but there you go.

Well if they look at the operating profit I would agree with them but the fact that their profit after tax interests and not being put into re-investment is still considerable and furthermore their sales have increased even in the middle of the biggest global recession since the 1930's is fairly substantial evidence that they are doing pretty well.

I miss the old shining spears. a BS 5 bright lance with turbo-invulnerable saves rocked for flank attacks on tanks.

Ed_Bodger wrote:As I am exploring in a research thread in the DCM forum GW are certainly not scraping by I have been analysing their financial statements for 2009 and 2010 and they are making a big (sorry I mean BIG) profit.

Nah, their profits aren't that big. It costs a lot to maintain all those mainstreet stores.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ed_Bodger wrote:Well if they look at the operating profit I would agree with them but the fact that their profit after tax interests and not being put into re-investment is still considerable and furthermore their sales have increased even in the middle of the biggest global recession since the 1930's is fairly substantial evidence that they are doing pretty well.

Except the profits before the recession were dismally low - the growth has been to minimally acceptable levels. Really, for the capital investment in the company the return is pretty crappy. If I was recommending a stock for someone to invest in, it wouldn't be GW.

Hang on,

Are we talking profit as in in profit after expenses and other deductions (such as store maintenance) or turnover?

To be fair, any company demonstrating growth in these economic climes is doing pretty well, no?