So, the appropriate RAW quotes:

Page 60, Codex: Dark Elfdars wrote:Once per game... [blah blah blah] ...Every psyker within <Censored by Ordo Attackus Pandoris> of the bearer must pass a Leadership test or be removed as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed.

Page 29, Codex: Blud Angles wrote:Psyker: A Furioso Librarian is a psyker and... [blah blah blah] ... and counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes...

Click da Button for the options!


As for what the actually RaW is, I have my own opinion but I will not mention it just yet.

As far as I can tell from the relevant quotes provided, the Librarian is a Psyker and therefore subject to all thing related to Psykers. Therefore, since the Crucible affects all Psykers (including the Librarian), the Librarian must take a Ld test.

Since the Librarian does not normally have a Ld value, this would normally do nothing. However, since it counts as having Ld 10 for all psychic purposes (a very vague term), it must test and possibly be removed.

Since the test specifically targets Psykers, I would consider this to be a psychic purpose and make the Librarian test.

It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

Option C - The Dread is removed from play as it can't take the LD test, Ergo didn't pass one

Tri wrote:It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

I agree with you here 110%. As I already pointed out in my own FAQ, Psychic Purposes means absolutely jack gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:Option C - The Dread is removed from play as it can't take the LD test, Ergo didn't pass one

Clever, Clever. Ah, but you can't claim it didn't pass, because it didn't take one in the first place, so it cannot have not passed because there was nothing to not pass in the first place!

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

I agree with you here 110%. As I already pointed out in my own FAQ, Psychic Purposes means absolutely jack gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:Option C - The Dread is removed from play as it can't take the LD test, Ergo didn't pass one

Clever, Clever. Ah, but you can't claim it didn't pass, because it didn't take one in the first place, so it cannot have not passed because there was nothing to not pass in the first place!

Perhaps it should have been written that way, but that would be RAI not RAW, right?

Claypool wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

I agree with you here 110%. As I already pointed out in my own FAQ, Psychic Purposes means absolutely jack gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:Option C - The Dread is removed from play as it can't take the LD test, Ergo didn't pass one

Clever, Clever. Ah, but you can't claim it didn't pass, because it didn't take one in the first place, so it cannot have not passed because there was nothing to not pass in the first place!

Perhaps it should have been written that way, but that would be RAI not RAW, right?

In fantasy when they moved to 8th they managed to make up-dates to all the codices. They even wrote a little rule the magic could only hurt warmachines if it had a strength value....

...we don't get the same quality in 40k. We get things like deploy your models (no mention about how), must move on from the board edge (what if you can't), and lets not get into the mess that is weapons (more then 3, nids, special attacks)

I have to go with choice B.

While it might be a dreadnought, it is still counted as a psyker and gives rules for using a LD value of 10 for "psychic purposes." There is a precendent for using that LD 10 for non "psychic purposes" that are related to psychic abilities, namely with a psychic hood. There is no mention of making a psychic test yet you can still use that LD 10 to nullify a psychic power, while fluffwise we all know they're using their psychic abilities in conjunction with the hood, we all know that fluff does not equal RAW.

Since it still has the psyker rule, and has a LD 10 for psychic purposes/ psychic related purposes, I would think it still has to make that test.

I tend to (not by RAW) look at "psychic purposes" as any time when the Dreadnought is called upon as a Psyker.

It is in this case, ergo, I would play it as a Ld10 test or be removed.

RAW, assuming that you follow an interpretation of "psychic purposes" that is more restrictive and does not include this instance, the Dreadnought is instantly removed, as it must "pass or be removed." If it cannot take the test, it cannot pass, and therefore removing it is the only way the game may continue. Otherwise, the game breaks.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

I agree with you here 110%. As I already pointed out in my own FAQ, Psychic Purposes means absolutely jack gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:Option C - The Dread is removed from play as it can't take the LD test, Ergo didn't pass one

Clever, Clever. Ah, but you can't claim it didn't pass, because it didn't take one in the first place, so it cannot have not passed because there was nothing to not pass in the first place!

Did it pass a Ld test. Y/N?

Done dusted thanks to the wording, it doesn't mention failing a Ld test as being the trigger to removal, just 'must pass a Ld test or be removed from'. Didn't take one didn't pass one, bai bai. (I'm going to pretend that it's a waving ork ^_^

Yeah, but if it doesn't take one, it can't not pass it!!

"Must pass a LD test or be removed" did it pass one? it's the wording it's not if it fails it, it's just if it doesn't pass one, something happily satisfied but not even taking one, no passing going on there

Yes, but the fact that it doesn't take one in the first place means it can't not pass it, since it doesn't apply to it whatsoever.

OMG MY BRAIN!!!!!!!!

The thing is, see. They didn't say "psychic test" or "perils of the warp".

They say "psychic purposes".

I would imagine it would apply to Runes of Warding and a Psychic Hood, for example. In fact I would insist.

If it is applying to Runes and the Psychic Hood, and whatever weirdness Grey Knights/ Sisters can do I don't see why it would not apply the doll thingie too.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, but the fact that it doesn't take one in the first place means it can't not pass it, since it doesn't apply to it whatsoever.

OMG MY BRAIN!!!!!!!!

But it's not, 'not passing a Ld' it simply did pass one, poof gone, if one doesn't take one then passing one is not an option, so Dread goes away.
Again the Crucible doesn't care about pass/fail it just cares if you pass one, not taking one=not passing one!~
Beeeeliiiiivvvvveee meeee! (When you have the chance to see it in the print)

It's got to be chocolate...... What? Oh yeah, pudding aside.

I don't believe that it is Option B since the Ld test really is not a psychic purpose. It's just an Ld test that only psykers happen to need to take.

I'll be the first to admit that "Psychic Purposes" is very vague, but I don't think it extends to the Crucible. It seems more like to deal with(more commonly) Hoods, Psychic Tests, (and less commonly) Hypnotic Gaze, and Mindwar*.

*Yes, I know you can't inflict wounds on the libby dread and you probably can't even target a walker, but it would count as Ld10 if you could.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

I agree with you here 110%. As I already pointed out in my own FAQ, Psychic Purposes means absolutely jack gak.

If it means nothing, then how does the Dreadnaught use psychic powers? The rule does not instruct us to use the Ld 10 for making psychic tests specifically, only that the model counts as Ld 10 for "all psychic purposes." If that means "jack gak," as you eloquently stated, then the Dreadnaught cannot use psychic powers at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, but the fact that it doesn't take one in the first place means it can't not pass it, since it doesn't apply to it whatsoever.

OMG MY BRAIN!!!!!!!!

It doesn't matter whether or not it "can't not pass," to use your wording. The Crucible specifies that the psyker must "pass a Leadership test or be removed." There is no requirement to fail the test in order to be removed, merely a requirement to pass the test in order to stay on the board. To continue on this vein, if the rule stated, "if the Librarian fails the test, then it is removed from play," then you would have a legitimate position. In this case, if the Librarian cannot take the test, then he cannot fail it, and would be immune from the effect. Unfortunately, that is not how the Crucible's rule is written. The Crucible's rule is a simple pass or go home. To simplify, not taking the test is the same as not passing the test.

To use an analogy, have you passed a calculus test if you never took it? Of course not; you have neither passed nor failed. If your college requires you to pass that calculus test today or be expelled from school, it doesn't matter if there is something that prevents you from taking that test today. Failure to pass equals removal from school; not taking it equals not passing it. Here's another analogy; if you fail to take your test for your driver's license, you have obviously not passed the exam. Therefore, if you drive without a license and get pulled over by a cop, you cannot possibly expect to get off from punishment by stating, "well, officer, I didn't take the test, so I didn't not pass it."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't believe that it is Option B since the Ld test really is not a psychic purpose. It's just an Ld test that only psykers happen to need to take.

And how is that not a "psychic purpose?" Are we going to arbitrarily start listing things that some people, merely by opinion, qualify as a "psychic purpose?" Why would something like a psychic hood or hypnotic gaze count, and the Crucible not? Merely because the Crucible has the chance to remove the Dreadnaught?

If we absolutely must look at it from a fluff perspective, consider this. The Dreadnaught is not a machine; it is piloted by an encapsulated Librarian. The Crucible has the potential to kill the Librarian piloting the Dreadnaught, thereby rendering it ineffectual.

Finally, I'll hit the issue from a game balance position. It is absurd to think that we should allow the Librarian Dreadnaught all of the advantages of having psychic abilities, but protecting it from all of the liabilities.

Oh, and by the way, I voted for option B.

Saldiven wrote:

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't believe that it is Option B since the Ld test really is not a psychic purpose. It's just an Ld test that only psykers happen to need to take.

And how is that not a "psychic purpose?" Are we going to arbitrarily start listing things that some people, merely by opinion, qualify as a "psychic purpose?" Why would something like a psychic hood or hypnotic gaze count, and the Crucible not? Merely because the Crucible has the chance to remove the Dreadnaught?

Because the Ld test does not cause and does not relate to anything psychic.

Saldiven wrote:If we absolutely must look at it from a fluff perspective, consider this. The Dreadnaught is not a machine; it is piloted by an encapsulated Librarian. The Crucible has the potential to kill the Librarian piloting the Dreadnaught, thereby rendering it ineffectual.

*Resists urge to ask for fluff reasons behind metal boxes on wheels saving psykers from Shadow in the Warp*

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't believe that it is Option B since the Ld test really is not a psychic purpose. It's just an Ld test that only psykers happen to need to take.

And how is that not a "psychic purpose?" Are we going to arbitrarily start listing things that some people, merely by opinion, qualify as a "psychic purpose?" Why would something like a psychic hood or hypnotic gaze count, and the Crucible not? Merely because the Crucible has the chance to remove the Dreadnaught?

Because the Ld test does not cause and does not relate to anything psychic.

Saldiven wrote:If we absolutely must look at it from a fluff perspective, consider this. The Dreadnaught is not a machine; it is piloted by an encapsulated Librarian. The Crucible has the potential to kill the Librarian piloting the Dreadnaught, thereby rendering it ineffectual.

*Resists urge to ask for fluff reasons behind metal boxes on wheels saving psykers from Shadow in the Warp*

So, a test that only psychic models have to take is some how not a psychic purpose? Frankly, I think your reasoning is about as flawed as it could be, and for that interpretation to work, would require a point by point analysis of everything remotely related to psychers to determine which things apply and which things don't apply to the Librarian Dreadnaught. The simpler and more reasonable approach is to have everything that is solely related to psychers to count as a "psychic purpose."

As for your second note, I agree with you. It's a silly interpretation, but not germane to this conversation.

My guess is that since it adversely affects a space marine player, that GW will FAQ for it to not work on embarked units in vehicles, or on Dreadnoughts.

Why is there no option D???

I would vote pudding. The game breaks and a roll-off must ensue to restore order to the game.

Really, you can't make a Ld test without a value, but you're being forced to make one. The game breaks, wahoo

If had to choose one, I'm more inclined to option A, that is, that it can't make a leadership test and so its fine.

Saldiven wrote:So, a test that only psychic models have to take is some how not a psychic purpose?

Yes because the Ld test does not do pertain to anything psychic to anything psychic except that a psyker is doing it.

Too bad this isn't WHFB rules; no characteristic value=automatic fail.

Galianis wrote:Too bad this isn't WHFB rules; no characteristic value=automatic fail.

Too bad this is WHFB, magic without a strength value cannot hurt warmachines

I think you take the psychic test. Not a huge deal. Obviously the Libby has leadership 10 in it's rules when taking tests. Honestly if someone was crying so much about taking a test that they have a 92% chance of passing they need to ctfo.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

Saldiven wrote:So, a test that only psychic models have to take is some how not a psychic purpose?

Yes because the Ld test does not do pertain to anything psychic to anything psychic except that a psyker is doing it.

The lead test is one that must be taken only by psykers, who, by definition, are psychic. Ipso facto, the Ld test is taken for psychic purposes. If it were a Ld test that were required of any and all characters, not merely psykers, I would agree that the Librarian Dreadnaught would not have to take that test.

The rule does not specify that the Ld value is only for psychic tests. I don't see why we should limit "psychic purposes" to "psychic tests" where no such limitation is expressed in the rules.

To further clarify, in my opinion, any test that a model is required to take solely because that model qualifies as a psyker would qualify as a "psychic purpose."

Yep, I knew there was a reason I've stayed out of YMDC for nearly a year....Common sense people. Option B.

If you press the RAW argument, then the Libby Dread is removed since it doesn't have a standard Ld stat. It doesn't matter if it can test or not, the rules for the CoM are quite clear, pass or remove.

Option B actually makes the situation fair for both sides involved. Anything else is just stupidity.

Rymafyr wrote:Yep, I knew there was a reason I've stayed out of YMDC for nearly a year....Common sense people. Option B.

If you press the RAW argument, then the Libby Dread is removed since it doesn't have a standard Ld stat. It doesn't matter if it can test or not, the rules for the CoM are quite clear, pass or remove.

Option B actually makes the situation fair for both sides involved. Anything else is just stupidity.

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree here. I do agree with your final conclusion, but this is not a case of "RAW being silly". This is a case of "RAW is unclear" and "RAI can logically be argued either way".

The Libby Dread is obviously meant to be able to use it's own psychic powers using Ld10. But, is that Ld10 really supposed to make it vulnerable to leadership tests from enemy's psychic powers? Either way you argue it, it doesn't quite make sense.

I mean, can I Mind War a Libby Dread? If so, it suffers wounds, but doesn't have any. Does this mean it has no wounds remaining and auto-dies? Or, does it mean it is vulnerable to Mind War, but immune to the results?

Grakmar wrote:
I mean, can I Mind War a Libby Dread? If so, it suffers wounds, but doesn't have any. Does this mean it has no wounds remaining and auto-dies? Or, does it mean it is vulnerable to Mind War, but immune to the results?

If I were writing the rules (which I'm not), I would say each "wound" caused by Mindwar results in a glancing hit on the Librarian Dread. This would be consistent with Perils of the Warp causing a glancing hit, assuming I remember correctly how that rule reads.

Okay then turn it around, if you don't count the LD score for psykic things other than just rolling the psykic test, then the Libby dread will suck hard at hood checks. Not having a LD score he would just roll a D6, almost assuring a fail whenever an opponent tries to hood his powers and never himself being able to hood an opponent's powers.

The fact is that this is an ill-defined term. In terms of mind war the RAW seems to indicate that although he can be hit by it, the wounds do nothing to him.

The "all psykic purposes" seems to be a very broadly applicable way of stating it, and therefore I believe it should be used as broadly as possible. No need to artificially/arbitrarily limit what is included in "all psykic purposes".

I voted B.

does the dread have a ws skill?? is it fearless?
It reminds of the old Talos.. it had a - were the leader ship was( so it was crazied but you could still mind war it. which they gave it a leadership of 10 for just that ... so I would figure if it has a ws/ bs its going to have a leadership value too... name one other vechicle that has a armour value and leadership?

All dreads have a WS...

No its not fearless... but they never take moral checks for any reason so it would be pointless if it did.

I'm not sure what the point of those questions was.

Dracos wrote:All dreads have a WS...

No its not fearless... but they never take moral checks for any reason so it would be pointless if it did.

I'm not sure what the point of those questions was.

Rhetorical I believe...

It's just counter as a walker, it does not have a leadership as the special rules say "Treat it as Ld10 for the process of making Psychic Hood and Psychic Abilitys".

grayspark wrote:It's just counter as a walker, it does not have a leadership as the special rules say "Treat it as Ld10 for the process of making Psychic Hood and Psychic Abilitys".

No, that is not what the Librarian Dreadnaught's rule states.

The rule states that it is counted as Ld 10 for "all Psychic purposes." It makes no limitation to psychic hoods or psychic abilities. Please, if you're going to quote a rule, try to quote it accurately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote:
The "all psykic purposes" seems to be a very broadly applicable way of stating it, and therefore I believe it should be used as broadly as possible. No need to artificially/arbitrarily limit what is included in "all psykic purposes".

This is exactly my position, as well. Why artificially place limitations on rules that are not written within the rules, especially when the broad interpretation works perfectly well and requires the least amount of interpretation?

Dread leadership argument again?

Look, people sure seem quick to coincide not being able to take a test with therfore not passing a test. Their logic is not flawed in the real world, but in the world of Warhammer 40k is is broken.

Within the ruleset of 40k, not being able to take a leadership test, does not constitute not passing a leadership test. All it means is you cannot take the test. You are prevented from ever verifying if a pass result was accomplished. It remains in limbo.

Remove real world logic and read the rules for leadership tests in the BRB. Passing a leadership test is clearly defined and not the real world nonsense of actually taking the test.

One thing that some of you need to note;

The rules say must pass a leadership test, NOT must take a leadership test. The rule in question along with Dante's mask I think are based on the premise that the target can even take the test in the first place. Basing a result on a trigger to a test that can never happen results on the trigger never happening to bring upon the result.

You would think with all the suspension of disbelief you need to play this game that the same would be followed with the rules.

If you are going to go by absolute, pure, fundamental RAW, then it's option C. I think that a measure of common sense needs to be applied though. I also think that they shouldn't get a free pass just because they are in a metal bawks (there is enough of that in the game as it is). They have the benefits of being a psyker and should be subject to the drawbacks of being a psyker. All of that in consideration, I think the ultimate best choice is B. One thing to keep in mind however is that opens up all of the other effects that they could be subjected to. These have been argued elsewhere, but over the same "for all psychic purposes" line. I don't think that is a bad thing for reasons I have already stated, but it is something that should not be neglected. This is all just my opinion of course, and I really think you could go by any of the three options and not be dead wrong.

I voted B as it seems straight forward from a "I read the words and that makes sense" perspective. RAW it is funky as hell.

Do you guys have an opinion on the Torment Grenade launcher affecting the Lib dreads "ld score" in combination with CoM? I would say no since that has nothing to do with the narrow band of Psychic purposes. But if you have to allow one thing... then you might have to allow the other.

Dok wrote:I voted B as it seems straight forward from a "I read the words and that makes sense" perspective. RAW it is funky as hell.

Do you guys have an opinion on the Torment Grenade launcher affecting the Lib dreads "ld score" in combination with CoM? I would say no since that has nothing to do with the narrow band of Psychic purposes. But if you have to allow one thing... then you might have to allow the other.

Well, not really. For things like that and the Orbs that wound vs Ld, they don't work against vehicles. Period. End. Fin. STOP!

The only reason it is unclear with the CoM is because it specifically affects Psykers and the Libby Dread has that stupid "psychic purposes" rule.

ha ha, word. My group came to the same conclusion on that. I was just wondering if anyone had some wacky rules clause where if one works then the other should, etc., etc.

Gwar, could you please fix the poll? I can't seem to vote pudding.

On a more serious note, I voted A. Psychic purposes is a broad and silly term, but it seems to cover tests like this.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Gwar, could you please fix the poll? I can't seem to vote pudding.

On a more serious note, I voted A. Psychic purposes is a broad and silly term, but it seems to cover tests like this.

So did you then vote for B, as B is the option saying that the Dread has to take the test.

I'll go with "Option C: Other"
It has no Ld so it counts as 0 which means.. it'll fail and gets removed.

Brother Ramses wrote:Dread leadership argument again?

Look, people sure seem quick to coincide not being able to take a test with therfore not passing a test. Their logic is not flawed in the real world, but in the world of Warhammer 40k is is broken.

Within the ruleset of 40k, not being able to take a leadership test, does not constitute not passing a leadership test. All it means is you cannot take the test. You are prevented from ever verifying if a pass result was accomplished. It remains in limbo.

Remove real world logic and read the rules for leadership tests in the BRB. Passing a leadership test is clearly defined and not the real world nonsense of actually taking the test.

One thing that some of you need to note;

The rules say must pass a leadership test, NOT must take a leadership test. The rule in question along with Dante's mask I think are based on the premise that the target can even take the test in the first place. Basing a result on a trigger to a test that can never happen results on the trigger never happening to bring upon the result.

You would think with all the suspension of disbelief you need to play this game that the same would be followed with the rules.

This entire post ignores the fact that the Librarian Dread is given permission to take Leadership tests for "psychic purposes" and given a Ld value to use for those tests.

My assertion is that any test a model must take specifically because that model qualifies as a "psyker" qualifies as a "psychic purpose." I believe this interpretation is the simplest and most elegant interpretation and requires the least fiddling with the rules and creation of caveats and qualifications.

The problem is that "psychic purposes" is an undefined game term. If we do not take a broad view of what constitutes a "psychic purpose," we are then left with the requirement to go through every instance where a psyker might have to take a test and determine whether or not that test qualifies as a "psychic purpose." This is needlessly cumbersome when taking the broad interpretation gives a simple, reasonable, and playable solution.

And that is what is most important having a fair and playable solution. I also think the poll shows pretty well how everyone thinks by more than a 2:1 margin for Option B as opposed to A+C combined.

Option C: It turns into a death-company dreadnought.

I dont think that any test would be taken, as its a vehicle, so it cant have leadership. But there is merit to both schools of thought here.

Thunder555 wrote:It has no Ld so it counts as 0 which means.. it'll fail and gets removed.

There's no such rule. You have to have an actual 0 there on your stat line to fail automatically.

It's a mess but then we're used to it.

I would have to go with c: other from what youve listed from the codex ....

The dread has a ld value for "psychic purposes", thats great.

The rule makes all psykers take a LD test, not a psychic test.

Dread has no ld, a ld test isnt a psychic purpose, so you dont use the 10.

He has no LD, thus cant take a LD test, no effect.

kill dem stunties wrote:I would have to go with c: other from what youve listed from the codex ....

The dread has a ld value for "psychic purposes", thats great.

The rule makes all psykers take a LD test, not a psychic test.

Dread has no ld, a ld test isnt a psychic purpose, so you dont use the 10.

He has no LD, thus cant take a LD test, no effect.

I'm curious. If a Ld test that a psyker is required to take specifically because he's a psyker is not a "psychic purpose," please find for me a game definition of "psychic purposes," and cite the page so I can find it.

Thanks!

It seems like were firmly split between the people who play BA and the people who want to/already play DE, lol

Saldiven wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Dread leadership argument again?

Look, people sure seem quick to coincide not being able to take a test with therfore not passing a test. Their logic is not flawed in the real world, but in the world of Warhammer 40k is is broken.

Within the ruleset of 40k, not being able to take a leadership test, does not constitute not passing a leadership test. All it means is you cannot take the test. You are prevented from ever verifying if a pass result was accomplished. It remains in limbo.

Remove real world logic and read the rules for leadership tests in the BRB. Passing a leadership test is clearly defined and not the real world nonsense of actually taking the test.

One thing that some of you need to note;

The rules say must pass a leadership test, NOT must take a leadership test. The rule in question along with Dante's mask I think are based on the premise that the target can even take the test in the first place. Basing a result on a trigger to a test that can never happen results on the trigger never happening to bring upon the result.

You would think with all the suspension of disbelief you need to play this game that the same would be followed with the rules.

This entire post ignores the fact that the Librarian Dread is given permission to take Leadership tests for "psychic purposes" and given a Ld value to use for those tests.

My assertion is that any test a model must take specifically because that model qualifies as a "psyker" qualifies as a "psychic purpose." I believe this interpretation is the simplest and most elegant interpretation and requires the least fiddling with the rules and creation of caveats and qualifications.

The problem is that "psychic purposes" is an undefined game term. If we do not take a broad view of what constitutes a "psychic purpose," we are then left with the requirement to go through every instance where a psyker might have to take a test and determine whether or not that test qualifies as a "psychic purpose." This is needlessly cumbersome when taking the broad interpretation gives a simple, reasonable, and playable solution.

Except the CoB does not ask for a Psychic test, it asks for a Leadership test, specifically a Leadership test which is a defined test in the BRB. Psychic purposes is all fine and dandy, however it is not defined in the BRB. So barring a clear definition of psychic purposes and a clear definition of Leadership tests, you refer to the latter which dreadnoughts do not take leadership tests and the CoB does nothing to a libby dread.

Funny with that logic my entire DE army just became immune to all Libby dreads...shame really.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say by RAW that the libby autodies.

1. Psykers need to pass LD test. It in no way says that it is a psychic test, just plain ol' leadership test.

2. Vehicles do not have a leadership value. Furioso Librarian's LD 10 for all psychic purposes doesn't matter because the basic requirement (being a psyker) was already met.

3. The dread can't pass the test, i.e. poof

:EDIT: btw, i play BA

I feel its leadership 10 or be removed based on the premise that it says all psychic purposes instead of something more specific like using psychic powers. There are better ways to handle it but that would require house rules for that one individual circumstance. Such as an automatic penetrating hit at AP 1 or something.

Brother Ramses wrote:
Except the CoB does not ask for a Psychic test, it asks for a Leadership test, specifically a Leadership test which is a defined test in the BRB. Psychic purposes is all fine and dandy, however it is not defined in the BRB. So barring a clear definition of psychic purposes and a clear definition of Leadership tests, you refer to the latter which dreadnoughts do not take leadership tests and the CoB does nothing to a libby dread.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that the Librarian Dread can have a psychic hood? The psychic hood uses opposed Leadership tests, not a psychic test. By your reasoning, the Hood on the Librarian Dread would do nothing.

Also, a Psychic Test IS a Leadership Test, just like a Square is a Rectangle. There is no such thing as a Psychic Test that is not also a Leadership Test.

Further, the Librarian Dread's rules do NOT say to count his as Ld 10 for "Psychic tests." That is the big flaw in your reasoning. It says the Dread "counts as Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes."

If I follow your reasoning to the next logical conclusion, since "Psychic purposes" has no game definition, and the Dread has no specific allowance to make "Psychic tests," and vehicles cannot make Leadership tests, then the Dread cannot use psychic powers at all. I think we can all agree that this was not the intent of the rule.

Now, I hope I'm making clear why I consider my broad interpretation of "psychic purposes" to be the simpler and more elegant way to play the rule?

Dracos wrote:Okay then turn it around, if you don't count the LD score for psykic things other than just rolling the psykic test, then the Libby dread will suck hard at hood checks. Not having a LD score he would just roll a D6, almost assuring a fail whenever an opponent tries to hood his powers and never himself being able to hood an opponent's powers.

The fact is that this is an ill-defined term. In terms of mind war the RAW seems to indicate that although he can be hit by it, the wounds do nothing to him.

The "all psykic purposes" seems to be a very broadly applicable way of stating it, and therefore I believe it should be used as broadly as possible. No need to artificially/arbitrarily limit what is included in "all psykic purposes".

I voted B.

Saldiven wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Except the CoB does not ask for a Psychic test, it asks for a Leadership test, specifically a Leadership test which is a defined test in the BRB. Psychic purposes is all fine and dandy, however it is not defined in the BRB. So barring a clear definition of psychic purposes and a clear definition of Leadership tests, you refer to the latter which dreadnoughts do not take leadership tests and the CoB does nothing to a libby dread.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that the Librarian Dread can have a psychic hood? The psychic hood uses opposed Leadership tests, not a psychic test. By your reasoning, the Hood on the Librarian Dread would do nothing.

@ Brother Ramses : Welcome to the first page of this thread. Why do people post in threads without reading them?

Wow, I'm hurt, Dracos. Especially since I had made four posts to this thread supporting my exact same position before your first post in this thread. I only brought up the Force Weapon issue as a direct rebuttal to BR's post as a logical extension to what his position entails.

Not sure why my balls are feeling unnecessarily busted....

Aww, i couldn't choose option 4; pudding

Saldiven wrote:Wow, I'm hurt, Dracos. Especially since I had made four posts to this thread supporting my exact same position before your first post in this thread. I only brought up the Force Weapon issue as a direct rebuttal to BR's post as a logical extension to what his position entails.

Not sure why my balls are feeling unnecessarily busted....

Sorry, that was directed at the poster you were quoting. I fixed my post to make that more clear.

I find it extremely annoying when people rehash a "new point" that was refuted previously in the same thread.

Edited by Manchu. Personal attacks are not allowed on Dakka.

Saldiven, when you look up psychic test it directs you to take a leadership test for that specific purpose. The same with a Psychic Hood. The CoB just tells you to take a Leadership test, as it is written in the BRB. Other then it only applying to psykers, it does nothing but ask for a Leadership test. I don't even think CoB is characterized as a psychic attack.

Is the CoB calling for a psychic test therefore forcing the dread to take a psychic test and using it's "for psychic purposes" only leadership value?

Is the CoB calling for a psychic hood test therefore forcing the dread to take a psychic hood test using it's "for psychic purposes" only leadership value?

The CoB is ONLY calling for a Leadership test, which dreads do not take.

I agree with Gwar, Psychic purpose is not defined anywhere.

So its up to the players to define what this means?

That is garbage GW, and you know it!

I would say since Psychic purposes is not in its own sentence, and it is contained within the same sentence referencing his psychic powers, that the dread only uses LD 10 for his own psychic purposes, and can not be called upon to take LD tests from an outside source.

Ramses...you mean CoM right? Crucible of Malediction. Cause I really don't know where you're getting CoB from. Then again, you are wrong on your other points so par for the course I guess.

Has anyone considered that maybe GW left 'psychic purposes' intentionally vague? Maybe they wanted it broad so that it would cover weapons and wargear affecting psykers that they hadn't written the rules for yet. You know, like things in subsequent codeces.

Like the DE codex, for instance, which was written concurrently with the BA codex. Any wargear affecting psykers in there?

Just curious.

Okay, curious and jocularly sarcastic.

Cauldron of blood possibly....

B is too close to M on my phone when typing fast.

Keep it polite Warnings have been issued.

Gwar! wrote:So, the appropriate RAW quotes:

Page 60, Codex: Dark Elfdars wrote:Once per game... [blah blah blah] ...Every psyker within <Censored by Ordo Attackus Pandoris> of the bearer must pass a Leadership test or be removed as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed.

I personally think it SHOULD test like any other psyker,

Or if it fails the test, due to going Stark Raving Mad, give it the annoying Chaos Dreadnought rule table, where the giant robot is DESIGNED to be insane and raving mad.

Lets see how the loyalists like their War machines killing their own men