So I got my new DE codex yesterday (yay preorders!) and I have to say... after reading it over in depth....

Phil Kelly is a racist.

Subscribed.

Go on.

Gitzbitah wrote:Go on.

Yes. Please do. Its hard to let a statement go without any rationale.

MOAR!

Ok

So

1 EW - Drazor, his points are now 230 and he counts as an HQ

Vect is 240 Points, for a T3 non-ew and if you want his dias you have to pay 200 points and then you MUST put 9 additional people in it (not up to 9, it HAS to be 9 guys) bringing his cost up to over 440 points.

There are like 14 HQ selections, 9 elites choices, 6 Heavy support choices, 4 FA and 2 troops (warriors and wyches, obviously)

Decapitator is an HQ (not an Elite, like he should be)

Urien does not auto wound anymore, but he does cuase ID on a 3+ (but its not a powerweapon), andhe gives Pain tokens to d3 units of Grotesques and Wracks (wracks are a new elite choice that are like "baby haemonculi").

power from pain is OK, (FnP Talos/Grotesques is nice, but making many units that are already fearless, fearless, is kinda a waste) but without taking something like a Cronos Parasite Engine(A somewhat talos varient, aka t7 MC HS slot), you probably wont see many tokens (im guessing an average of 4-6 per game without things like Animus Vitae and the Cronos engine).

You can give all of your raiders/ravs/venoms a 5+ invul, which is kinda nice, but doing calculation, to get survivable raiders, you are dropping about 90+ points per raider.

The "Phil Kelly is a Racist" comment was directed at the fact that his 5th edition Imperial books completely devestate this book, and it seems the DE are no longer as much of a meq slayer as a geq slayer. Also, it confirms the rumor that Phil Kelly hate Tyranids (as this dex COMPLETELY smashes Gav's nid book).


Any other specific questions? Slow day at work and I have the codex with me.

Awww.... I expected a much more vitriolic attack on Phil Kelly's racist tendencies. Thanks for the rundown.

edited for proper adjective form of vitriol. Vitreous refers to a glassy substance, which was not my intent at all. My vocabulary has expanded slightly.

BTW, fun fact that I lold at when I first read it.

GWFAQ wrote:Q. Does Lelith Hesperax gain the advantages of
the combat drugs her retinue has?
A. She does, otherwise she would be the only
Wych in the army (and probably in the universe)
not to use combat drugs.

Lelith Hesperax is now the only wych in the universe not to use combat drugs (according to her fluff in the new dex, this is how it has always been for her)

Whats your overall rating on the dex? Would you recommend players to get it if they are looking for a new army? Are they tough to play? (like tau) or an up tier army when played with the right units? I was going to get DE as my army after my current but i'm reconsidering.

BTW, in case people think I am talking out my ass...

If you notice, I put the DAR in DARk elDAR in red, as a form of "proof" that this is mine.


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daemon wrote:Whats your overall rating on the dex? Would you recommend players to get it if they are looking for a new army? Are they tough to play? (like tau) or an up tier army when played with the right units? I was going to get DE as my army after my current but i'm reconsidering.

1) 6.5/10

2) No, unless you have alot of nid/eldar/ork players in your area, or really like pretty models.

3) Tau = Tough? I thought standing 70 inches away pelting people with str 10 ap 1 was easy... but I guess I'm a silly git! Anywho, they are not NEARLY as hard as they used to be, but they aren't all that great either. Luck is now a HUGE factor with these guys.

3.5) I'll have to do a bit of playtesting before I can give a final answer, but from how I have been reading it, they seem to be at the same "Competition level" as Chaos Daemons (40k not fantasy). However, if you do plan on playing them, and you used to have a DE army, you'd better hope you didn't throw away your Hellions/Mandrakes.

The "kicks the crap out of Nids" fact pretty much kicked me in the fact as soon as I read the codex, but I didn't think about Imperial codices, and their interaction with the new DE.

Eenteresteeng.

My biggest problem is that, unlike 5e Imperial codices, this codex is riddled with absolute powerhouse units that preclude the use of some of the more fun-looking units. There are a number of choices I feel like I have to take that blot out the choices I think would be fun to take. Example: I can't justify taking a Talos when I can instead take two Ravagers and a Voidraven. I can't justify taking Beastmasters when I can instead spam Incubi. Why take Decapitator when Lelith and some Haemonculi will probably do the job I want, better? And I was so hoping there'd be a reason to take Harlequins, because I love Harlequins, but they're just as overpriced when you try to make them useful as they were in 4e Eldar.

Contrast Codex: Space Marines, where most if not every unit has a function in a given list. There are a couple of useless choices, but nowhere near the volume I see in the new DE codex.

And I sadface.

Thanks for the review. Looks like i'll be waiting for the next tau codex then for now. I can't wait for more reviews and play tests on the DE codex though.

Well tau are hard to play in the sense of unit composition and placement i suppose.

Although i have to admit i am tempted by the new sculpts for the DE as the tau molds are old and pretty poor in my opinion. At least for the fire warriors. I'm painting some at the moment and the details are a pain to paint.

SaintHazard wrote:My biggest problem is that, unlike 5e Imperial codices, this codex is riddled with absolute powerhouse units that preclude the use of some of the more fun-looking units. There are a number of choices I feel like I have to take that blot out the choices I think would be fun to take. Example: I can't justify taking a Talos when I can instead take two Ravagers and a Voidraven. I can't justify taking Beastmasters when I can instead spam Incubi. Why take Decapitator when Lelith and some Haemonculi will probably do the job I want, better? And I was so hoping there'd be a reason to take Harlequins, because I love Harlequins, but they're just as overpriced when you try to make them useful as they were in 4e Eldar.

I know it sounds broken, but TBH, they should have given the DE a way to remove FO all togeather (Other then the 2 troop 1 HQ minimum), so that people could make more "fun and interesting lists" (They would still need troops, for scoring, and they would still be limited to 17 total slots ((14 custom choice, 3 req))

Oh also how are the harlequins besides being overpriced? What is the fluff on that? I'm not familiar with eldar/dark eldar fluff.

Haven't played a lot of DE with the old codex.
One thing that I felt (maybe incorrectly due to inexperience) was that a lot of the points values and choice limitations were rather restrictive.

This I hoped would change with the new book.
Have these hopes been dashed?

Was also wanting to use Harlies

It is always nice when someone makes a statment based first impression and nothing else.

Not many viable hqs have EW, I know Logan and DP have it but lack of EW hasn't stop people from using Mephiston (who is more expensive than Vect and loses to Vect 1 on 1) or Vulcan or Farseers. Archon's court allows Nob level of wound allocation and Drazhar is absolutely impervious against hidden PK/PF because of his crazy ass jump.

Urien now has Clone Field and t5 and mad regen, doesn't cost much either, he is a Coven version of Archon, Decapitator is not very useful though.

You can get free pain tokens with Haemonculi, Drugs and shooting kills also give them.

Dark Eldar absolutely murder meq just mathhammer it out if you want to know their average effectiveness. There are some things that most of the people can't see immediately, like Hekatrix killing TH/SS termies reliably.

Dark Eldar won't be easy use though but that is for entirely different reasons than what you mentioned. Rapid Fire is their bane as always, multishot weapons like HW Bolters, Scatter Lasers and Multi Lasers are going to be pain in the arse too but those weaknesses have always been there.

Fixed spelling, I hope.

Erm

What does "Arhcon's cout allows Nob level of wound allocation " mean please.

whatever it is, it sounds painful and I am crossing my legs whincing at the mere thought of it!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Erm

What does "Arhcon's cout allows Nob level of wound allocation " mean please.

whatever it is, it sounds painful and I am crossing my legs whincing at the mere thought of it!

The Court is basically a whole bunch of models each with different equipment. Allows for wound-allocation shenanigans a la Nobz, reduces the number of wounds you actually take since you roll for each model separately.

Although I thought (can't remember, don't have the codex in my hands) that the Archon was the only multi-wound model in that unit?

Thanks for clarifying Saint.
Wasn't having a dig at you Aetherse btw
just that my brain wasn't working to fill in the missing consonants correctly

@Saint:
Nobs have 2 wounds. Makes a huge damn difference.
(Assuming the Court models only have 1 wound that is).

Aetherse wrote:
Not many viable hqs have EW, I know Logan and DP have it but lack of EW hasn't stop people from using Mephiston (who is more expensive than Vect and loses to Vect 1 on 1) or Vulcan or Farseers. Archon's cout allows Nob level of wound allocation and Drazhar is absolutely impervious against hidden PK/PF because of his crazy ass jump.

Sanguinor

Any wolflord (saga of bear)

Any Rune Priest (Saga of bear)

Codex: Chaos Daemons (the entire dex)

Abbadon

Phoenix lords

just to name a few (there are many more)


Also, how do you figure Mephiston loses to Vect?

Assuming Vect has charge, vect will have 7 attacks missing 3 rerolling missting 1 causing 4 wounds(he does not reroll these). Mephiston strikes back hitting 3, rerolling, hitting 4(assuming vect fails his ld 6 test, which is more then likely). Wounding 2 rerolling wounding 3. if even 1 of these wounds passes the invul, vect dies. (Str 6 double toughs him). Also, BA have MUCH better ways of keeping mephiston safe (LRs and SRs to name a few) and buff units like S-Priests. Mephiston is also a lot more likely to get the charge (with 24" effective charge range) which further limits vects ability.

Also, Vect gets 1 shotted by a psycannon. So boo on him.

Aetherse wrote:
Urien now has Clone Field and t5 and mad regen, doesn't cost much either, he is a Coven version of Archon, Decapitator is not very useful though.

Urien's clone field is good in CC I guess, but outside of that, the lack of invul makes him very vunerable to much of the str 10 out there (believe me, there is alot). Also, 1 wound a turn is not "mad regen". He only has 3 total and he costs 190 points, and takes a FULL hq slot (not 1 of 3 Haemonculi).

Aetherse wrote:
You can get free pain tokens with Haemonculi, Drugs and shooting kills also give them.

Free pain tokens from haemonculi? Where did you read this? Do you mean the 1 pain token they get at the beginning of the game? Cool! Still not going to break that 4-6 average I listed.

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar absolutely murder meq just mathhammer it out if you want to know their average effectiveness. There are some things that most of the people can't see immediately, like Hekatrix killing TH/SS termies reliably.

Cool, too bad not all meq are TH/SS termies. The new DE are not NEARLY as good as they used to be against MEQ...

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar won't be easy use though but that is for entirely different reasons than what you mentioned. Rapid Fire is their bane as always, multishot weapons like HW Bolters, Scatter Lasers and Multi Lasers are going to be pain in the arse too but those weaknesses have always been there.

I'm guessing you don't have the new dex... only 1 weapon is RF, and if you mean them taking shots by RF, then it really depends on what is shooting them... I honestly believe you are still in the 3rd edition DE mindset based on what you have posted...

daemon wrote:Oh also how are the harlequins besides being overpriced? What is the fluff on that? I'm not familiar with eldar/dark eldar fluff.

The fluff on Harlis is that they exist outside of both DE and Eldar society, they are friend to both (DE love watching them dance) and they seem to want to reunite the Eldar race as a whole.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Haven't played a lot of DE with the old codex.
One thing that I felt (maybe incorrectly due to inexperience) was that a lot of the points values and choice limitations were rather restrictive.

yes

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
This I hoped would change with the new book.
Have these hopes been dashed?

yes

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Was also wanting to use Harlies

so sorry... if you want to waste your elites slots, more power to you, but they really don't have much of a home in the DE dex with the 7 other elites chocies....


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SaintHazard wrote:Although I thought (can't remember, don't have the codex in my hands) that the Archon was the only multi-wound model in that unit?

SSlyths have 2 wounds, you can have up to 3. They are T5 FNP units.

So basically business as usual for DE players? I don't mind really at least we have some more options for us and I honestly think we have a better chance against imperial dex's than before. Also mephiston dies to a normal archon pretty easily, so I have no doubt that vect could beat him without trying. I don't know what the math hammer is but meh, mephi might win out if you do it that way but if he goes against an archon with a huskblade he just has to wound him once to get rid of him. (really sad when I did it because I tried to use soul trap and I forgot mephi, isn't a IC or a MC)

I do have one gripe for the new DE codex, Void ravens and razorwings cost more or about the same than a vendetta/valk/stormraven but only has AV 11 and one special rule that the others don't. I just kinda expected that a eldar "flyer" would outclass anything the imperials could bring but oh well.

Thanks for the information. Just noted that my Pre order is now listed as "dispatched" on GW's site. So shouldn't have to wait long for my copy + models. Good times ahead indeed!

Also, how do you figure Mephiston loses to Vect?

Assuming Vect has charge, vect will have 7 attacks missing 3 rerolling missting 1 causing 4 wounds(he does not reroll these). Mephiston strikes back hitting 3, rerolling, hitting 4(assuming vect fails his ld 6 test, which is more then likely). Wounding 2 rerolling wounding 3. if even 1 of these wounds passes the invul, vect dies. (Str 6 double toughs him). Also, BA have MUCH better ways of keeping mephiston safe (LRs and SRs to name a few) and buff units like S-Priests. Mephiston is also a lot more likely to get the charge (with 24" effective charge range) which further limits vects ability.

Also, Vect gets 1 shotted by a psycannon. So boo on him.

Vect shouldn't go alone, he should always have t4 or t5 buffer around him. And he relies on his 2+ save yeah he dies if he fails it, big deal, he is still more likely to kill charging Mephiston with succesful Transfixing Gaze than not. And the seize initiave on 4+ might win you a game. Vect is a gamble but the odds aren't that bad.

Free pain tokens from haemonculi? Where did you read this? Do you mean the 1 pain token they get at the beginning of the game? Cool! Still not going to break that 4-6 average I listed.

Yeah Heamonculi sharing the pain was what I meant. FNP is amazing defense against everything DE are afraid, like bolters and lasguns. The overall number of tokens doesn't measure anything, DE aren't balanced around having full power from pain.

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar absolutely murder meq just mathhammer it out if you want to know their average effectiveness. There are some things that most of the people can't see immediately, like Hekatrix killing TH/SS termies reliably.

Cool, too bad not all meq are TH/SS termies. The new DE are not NEARLY as good as they used to be against MEQ...

How could that be? We lost plasma cannons but gained 4+ wounding splinter weapons and the new disintegrators still kill meqs like no tomorrow. Besides that everything got better, incubi murder everything that relies on armor save, our flamers can deny armor saves and we can have them on troops. Beastmasters and hellions are now actually useful, shardnets are better than wych weapons were because they can remove more than 1 attack if you have several of them in base contact. And then there are all the large blasts our new HS units can throw out.

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar won't be easy use though but that is for entirely different reasons than what you mentioned. Rapid Fire is their bane as always, multishot weapons like HW Bolters, Scatter Lasers and Multi Lasers are going to be pain in the arse too but those weaknesses have always been there.

I'm guessing you don't have the new dex... only 1 weapon is RF, and if you mean them taking shots by RF, then it really depends on what is shooting them... I honestly believe you are still in the 3rd edition DE mindset based on what you have posted...

Yeah I meant that DE are going to be shot to pieces by RF weapons and I did mean each and every one of them. Lasgun? Kills T3 easily. Bolter? Kills our vehicles. Dark Eldar didn't really change much from the 3rd ed. We still lose fast and win faster. Our units must not get shot because they can't take it. When DE they can survive much better because they can't be shot at and strike almost always first so that enemy attacks are reduced greatly. But as I already said we absolutely cannot get shot at.

I really don't see why your are bashing the codex, it is balanced and only has few bad units. The only difference from the old one is that you have to take something that can kill in melee because you can't rely on 3 Disintegrator Ravagers to shoot everyone and their mothers.

Luthon1234 wrote:So basically business as usual for DE players? I don't mind really at least we have some more options for us and I honestly think we have a better chance against imperial dex's than before. Also mephiston dies to a normal archon pretty easily, so I have no doubt that vect could beat him without trying. I don't know what the math hammer is but meh, mephi might win out if you do it that way but if he goes against an archon with a huskblade he just has to wound him once to get rid of him. (really sad when I did it because I tried to use soul trap and I forgot mephi, isn't a IC or a MC)

The reason old archons had it better typically had to do with Retinues/Combat Drugs and broken Shadowfields.

New archons don't get combat drugs (they are long gone as we once knew them)

Vect has a shadow field, but now you roll each wound individually for the shadow fields (so if you take three, you could lose it on the first and not get it for the remainder... which sucks big time) Vect doesn't have a husk blade, and any archon with a huskblade is wounding him on a 6 (normal archons are also striking second/simul (Depending on if mephi has a nearby priest/power thru pain)

We lost alot of our anti-meq shooting from the last dex, and are now even more fragile then before (haemonculi having 6+s is lame as hell...)

Luthon1234 wrote:I do have one gripe for the new DE codex, Void ravens and razorwings cost more or about the same than a vendetta/valk/stormraven but only has AV 11 and one special rule that the others don't. I just kinda expected that a eldar "flyer" would outclass anything the imperials could bring but oh well.

Ravens and wings can move 12" and fire all guns, and move 36" when turbo boosting. (Also, having "bombers" while not in apoc is nice). I think they outclass valks/vendis when it comes to manuverability, just not when it comes to armor (you can however, give them 5+ invuls, which is funny)

I think trueborn are amazing,

i heard you like 4 blasters 2 lances in a squad

Imo

Duke + wytches + warriors + trueborn + archon w/ some wound abuse -> golden list

Overall I agree with the OP - the dex is extremely underwhelming.

There are awesome bits like cheap as heck Ravagers, and the awesome choice of Razorwings and Voidravens, but really, there are more disappointing aspects than positive.

Saint Hazard nailed it: so many units are overcosted/not worth taking, which you rarely see in a 5th Edition 'dex.

Plus pretty much every special HQ choice is poop outside of maybe Lelith (provided the meta doesn't get wise to the fact that she has S3).

Also, there's really no need to prove that you actually have the 'dex. It's been out for weeks at stores, and online at dubious places in it's entirety for about a week now.

Edit: At OP - the only thing wrong I found in this assessment so far is the fact that Archon's don't get combat drugs. You can pay like 10 points for a drug dispenser.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
1) 6.5/10

2) No, unless you have alot of nid/eldar/ork players in your area, or really like pretty models.

3) Tau = Tough? I thought standing 70 inches away pelting people with str 10 ap 1 was easy... but I guess I'm a silly git! Anywho, they are not NEARLY as hard as they used to be, but they aren't all that great either. Luck is now a HUGE factor with these guys.

3.5) I'll have to do a bit of playtesting before I can give a final answer, but from how I have been reading it, they seem to be at the same "Competition level" as Chaos Daemons (40k not fantasy). However, if you do plan on playing them, and you used to have a DE army, you'd better hope you didn't throw away your Hellions/Mandrakes.

No offense, but I couldn't disagree with you MORE except that they may not be for everyone. Good players will dominate with these guys and noobs will get hammered and demoralized. They aren't dummyproof and obvious, such as IG, SW, or BA, so maybe that comes across as middling or average. It is a good to great codex that is well constructed throughout the entire book, with many excellent units that work within different builds. They have exceptional synergy and duality within the army. They are not dependent on luck any more than any other codex and frankly I have zero idea where to even begin to deconstruct that unless you think going first and alpha striking is all they have to offer (Hint: not even close).

I would expect that you will see several DE armies finding success at competitive tournaments throughout the coming year and it won't just be the same Raider/Lance spam armies of the last 10+ years. Those that are disappointed/underwhelmed need to look deeper. If you're expecting it to slap you in the face, you're missing the entire point of the codex. I've been reading a leaked codex for a couple weeks and have a couple dozen lists built around different concepts that use pretty much every unit in the book in some fashion or another. There is, flat out, no codex that I will fear and only a handful of builds that I will even sweat. Yes, IMO, they are THAT good if you can make them work.

Magnalon wrote:Overall I agree with the OP - the dex is extremely underwhelming.

There are awesome bits like cheap as heck Ravagers, and the awesome choice of Razorwings and Voidravens, but really, there are more disappointing aspects than positive.

Saint Hazard nailed it: so many units are overcosted/not worth taking, which you rarely see in a 5th Edition 'dex.

Plus pretty much every special HQ choice is poop outside of maybe Lelith (provided the meta doesn't get wise to the fact that she has S3).

Also, there's really no need to prove that you actually have the 'dex. It's been out for weeks at stores, and online at dubious places in it's entirety for about a week now.

Edit: At OP - the only thing wrong I found in this assessment so far is the fact that Archon's don't get combat drugs. You can pay like 10 points for a drug dispenser.

She also has Furious Charge, so she's S4 on the charge. And if you're not getting the charge with Lelith... you may be doing it wrong.

Ennkay wrote:I think trueborn are amazing,

i heard you like 4 blasters 2 lances in a squad

Imo

Duke + wytches + warriors + trueborn + archon w/ some wound abuse -> golden list

Trueborn would be better if they werent elites. Also, you would more likely go Blasterx4 Cannon x2, Lances are still haevy, so that limits your mobility...

Archon w/wound abuse is costing you 135 min (no upgrades or xports) only the Archon and the Sslyth have more then 1 wound and you can't abuse with multiple Sslyths (they do not have customisable wargear)

Wyches are really the only thing to take for troops, warriors are gak now (cost more points base too) and you would have 1 unit of anti tank..

So basically, for your "golden list" costing... 135(min for archon and friends) + 150 for duke + 182 for the 6 trueborn(with 4 blasters and two lances) + 50 for wyches (min cost) + 45 for kabalite warriors(again min cost) puts you at ~550 points (562 points for those who want the exact number) vindicators cost 145 points each. A single vindicator would devestate the "golden" list.


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Magnalon wrote:
Edit: At OP - the only thing wrong I found in this assessment so far is the fact that Archon's don't get combat drugs. You can pay like 10 points for a drug dispenser.

I meant in the old sense of their combat druges (choosing abilities and rolling die = number of abilities hoping to not get doubles)


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Skarboy wrote:
I would expect that you will see several DE armies finding success at competitive tournaments throughout the coming year and it won't just be the same Raider/Lance spam armies of the last 10+ years. Those that are disappointed/underwhelmed need to look deeper. If you're expecting it to slap you in the face, you're missing the entire point of the codex. I've been reading a leaked codex for a couple weeks and have a couple dozen lists built around different concepts that use pretty much every unit in the book in some fashion or another. There is, flat out, no codex that I will fear and only a handful of builds that I will even sweat. Yes, IMO, they are THAT good if you can make them work.

Care to give an example of a list(from the new codex) that would fear only a handful of builds?

Cause really, its the other way around. Only a handful of builds (none really all that competitive) have anything to fear from this new DE dex.

Only one Phoenix Lord has Eternal Warrior, that's Asurmen. It's totally piss-pants that the other's don't.

Skarboy wrote:Those that are disappointed/underwhelmed need to look deeper.

I agree with you somewhat, but there are still a large handful of units (and pretty much all the SCs) that are never worth taking in any list, and that is unacceptable.

Tek wrote:Only one Phoenix Lord has Eternal Warrior, that's Asurmen. It's totally piss-pants that the other's don't.

I'm sorry, but "Codex Eldar" disagrees.


this profile applies to ALL the phoenix lords...

Duke Sliscus

baron Sathonyx

Trueborn x4
4 blasters, venom

Hellions x 20
stun claw

reaver x6
caltrops
heat lance x2

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x9
hydra gauntlets x1
hekatrix w/ power weapon/blast pistol
raider w/flicker field

2000

I think the statement that a single vindicator will destroy an entire army is not entirely accurate DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Tek wrote:Only one Phoenix Lord has Eternal Warrior, that's Asurmen. It's totally piss-pants that the other's don't.

I'm sorry, but "Codex Eldar" disagrees.


this profile applies to ALL the phoenix lords...

The only problem is that you're arguing phoenix lords to be "viable". At over 200pts a piece, they really aren't for what they give. Similarly, since when did Rune Priests ever use Saga of the Bear?! I don't think they could even take it let alone bother doing so if they could.

I agree with much of what Skarboy said, DE seems to be more of a thinking-mans codex that is tricky to master but devastating once it is mastered. There will be a wide variety of themes and units that can be used in friendly or non-competitive games and there will be a selection of skilled players whupping-ass with competitive Dark Eldar armies. They are still very much a glass hammer, but they are a well-themed, tricky to use army as Dark Eldar should be. I'm glad they're not OTT or so easy to use as IG, BA and SW's, this is how the Dark Eldar should be IMHO.

Exactly, the options are there. they just arent pounding you in the face like "hurr hurr lets spam melta veterans vendettas and medusas"

Overall I agree with the OP - the dex is extremely underwhelming.

There are awesome bits like cheap as heck Ravagers, and the awesome choice of Razorwings and Voidravens, but really, there are more disappointing aspects than positive.

Saint Hazard nailed it: so many units are overcosted/not worth taking, which you rarely see in a 5th Edition 'dex.

Plus pretty much every special HQ choice is poop outside of maybe Lelith (provided the meta doesn't get wise to the fact that she has S3).

Also, there's really no need to prove that you actually have the 'dex. It's been out for weeks at stores, and online at dubious places in it's entirety for about a week now.

Edit: At OP - the only thing wrong I found in this assessment so far is the fact that Archon's don't get combat drugs. You can pay like 10 points for a drug dispenser.

I'm going to have to disagree here and with the OP. I don't think Dark Eldar are a 5th edition codex like SW, BA, or IG. They are more like Tyrannids. I don't see this as a bad thing. I think the Nid codex is very viable. Tactics and synergy rule the day and will with Dark Eldar as well. So they don't have clear cut "spam me" choices? Good. Screw the flavor of the month crowd. Dark Eldar were a tough to use, unforgiving but powerful army. They are still a tough to use, unforgiving but powerful army. The only difference is that they are not confined to "dark lance spam" mono builds to be competitive. Again, good.

What's overcosted about it? 9 point warriors with poisoned weapons that get FNP incredibly easily? Fast vehicles with a dark lance that can get a 5++ or the ability to negate the opponents range by 6"? The only trash overcosted units I see outside of some of the special characters are Grotesques, Scourges, and Mandrakes. The rest is fine. The Archon is still viable. He just doesn't have the combat drugs like before...oh well. The special characters seem hit or miss. I know from experience that Magnalon doesn't like army buffing guys and goes ga-ga for beatsticks. Sadly, army buffers are usually better. It's funny you mention Lelith as I think she may be one of the trashiest ones there. Army buffing characters like the Hellion one and Duke Scicilus are amazing for their cost in the right builds. Again, list building and synergy.

People are too knee jerk. Either they think the poisoned weapons are way to OP or were expecting cheese to the levels of SW or BA. Well, they didn't get that kind of cheese. Isn't it possible the codex is balanced and it's going to be hard to use? If so what's the problem there? Either way, the community needs to play games with and against them before any judgments are definitely made.

JGrand wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree here and with the OP. I don't think Dark Eldar are a 5th edition codex like SW, BA, or IG. They are more like Tyrannids. I don't see this as a bad thing.

The Tyranids don't really have a handful of units that are straight up awful though. The beauty of the Tyranid codex is that it's unsightly at first, but once you look at it, pretty much everything is viable. The Dark Eldar codex has some units that you just look at and go "why would I *ever* take these?". In a 5th edition codex, that's not a good thing.

Also, Tyranids boast some of the best SCs/MCs in the game. Dark Eldar were shafted entirely in that regard. I said "maybe" Lelith for the kids - I think she's awful at Strength 3.

Cause really, its the other way around. Only a handful of builds (none really all that competitive) have anything to fear from this new DE dex.

Can you tell me how this list would fail horribly against most armies? It is something that I threw together in 10 minutes.

Archon (Clone Field, Grenade Launcher, Haywire Grenades, Ghostplate, Agonizer)

Court (1 Medusae, 1 Lhamaean, 1 Ur-Ghul, 2 Slyths) with Raider (Flickerfield, Prow)

3 Haemonculi (Each with liquifier)

9 Wracks (liquifier) with Raider (Flickerfield, Prow)

9 Wracks (liquifier) with Raider (Flickerfield, Prow)

10 Wyches (10 Haywire Grenades, 2 Shardnets, Hekatrix with Agonizer) Raider (Flickerfield, Prow)

10 Wyches (10 Haywire Grenades, 2 Shardnets, Hekatrix with Agonizer) Raider (Flickerfield, Prow)

1 Ravager (Flickerfield)

2 Razorwings (Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon)

Together it is 1750 points.

It has 5 S4 ap d6 flamers and one S d6+1 ap d6 flamer, 12 Dark Lances and both Jet Fighters have 4 S6 ap 5 Large Blast missiles that they can spam in one turn if they want to.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Care to give an example of a list(from the new codex) that would fear only a handful of builds?

Cause really, its the other way around. Only a handful of builds (none really all that competitive) have anything to fear from this new DE dex.

I won't, actually, provide full lists because if folks can't figure them out on their own, I won't be able to explain it to them. It's not my responsibility to try to drive up DE interest or hand-hold folks through their army selection process. Further, posting a list is reckless without explaining the tactics of how to use it. The best list in the world is feeble in the hands of someone who cannot conceptualize how they work together.

All I'm stating for folks, as a counterpoint to those denouncing the DE as mediocre, is that they have exceptional potential if you unlock them. Yes, you need to have some ability to conceptualize an entire functioning army and that examining units or even shoddy "best of" type lists in a vacuum will not clue you in on their abilities. But they have, amongst other things:

-Versatile troop choices that can do multiple tasks and can be easily customized to fit need(s)
-Some exceptionally good hammer units out of multiple force org slots
-A cheap, force-multiplying HQ choice and several other HQ choices that affect the game larger than just being CC monsters
-Several hard-hitting alpha strike units for both infantry and vehicles
-Webway portals manipulate the reserves and gives you unequaled battlefield area control, as well as an ability to launch hammer units with long reach thanks to fleet and other rules
-Access to excellent special weapons, including the best flamers in the game
-Specialists that can actually be configured to multiple roles out of different force org slots
-Ability to multi-functional choices out of almost every force organization selection
-Army-wide abilities that multiply the effectiveness of many units
-Ability to field several different builds, be competitive AND fluffy, and address all potential needs on the battlefield

By ignoring/mitigating the above, you are doing a great injustice to the codex by saying they are mediocre. They are not for everyone. They are not idiotproof and slap you in the face with broken choices. Can you build an army that synergizes well with other units? Can you leverage units that are powerfully offensive, but fragile? Can you "see" the game and plan several moves/turns ahead to use your speed and position yourself to strike where weak? Can you effectively prioritize targets and objectives to maximize your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses? If you can say yes to these, then the DE may be for you. If a high learning curve means "mediocre" to you or if you can only compete by pushing landraiders full of TH/SS terminators across the board, then maybe you should skip them.

When the Tyranids codex came out everybody was saying that the sky was falling because they had an awful, awful codex. 7 months on people have actually learned to play the army, and there's no real outstanding problems aside from some poorly worded rules.

In other words, don't let the OP's first impressions sway you from having an army of totally sweet looking space pirates. They'll be fine.

The Tyranids don't really have a handful of units that are straight up awful though. The beauty of the Tyranid codex is that it's unsightly at first, but once you look at it, pretty much everything is viable. The Dark Eldar codex has some units that you just look at and go "why would I *ever* take these?". In a 5th edition codex, that's not a good thing.

Also, Tyranids boast some of the best SCs/MCs in the game. Dark Eldar were shafted entirely in that regard. I said "maybe" Lelith for the kids - I think she's awful at Strength 3.

Ummm....

Deathleaper
Lictors
Pyrovore
Mawlock
Harpy
Carnifex
Old One Eye
Parisite of Mortex

Just off the top of my head a list of horrid Tyrannid units. Like I said, I can think of three units in Dark Eldar that suck and are worthless not counting SC's.

Why would they have MC's? They are Dark Eldar? Why should they play like anything else? They are fast and can pump out the damage. FNP and flickerfields have made them more resilient than before. OMG they are paper thin? What do you want, 3+ saves and 2 special weapons, a sergeant with powerfist?

There isn't Meph or fast razorbacks here, I'd agree. They aren't cheese. Oh well. They still seem like an upgrade over the old Dark Eldar dex which has been doing pretty well in the context of 5th edition. Plus, it alleviates the "mono build" boredom. Some people like challenging armies. Not everyone wants to be OP fast MEQs.

Magnalon wrote:

Skarboy wrote:Those that are disappointed/underwhelmed need to look deeper.

I agree with you somewhat, but there are still a large handful of units (and pretty much all the SCs) that are never worth taking in any list, and that is unacceptable.

Such as? I suggest to you that, in the right build, pretty much EVERYTHING in the dex has a purpose and I have found that a lot of the "obvious" choices that people are claiming (Voidraven, Incubi, etc.) are not nearly as efficient as they appear.

By ignoring/mitigating the above, you are doing a great injustice to the codex by saying they are mediocre. They are not for everyone. They are not idiotproof and slap you in the face with broken choices. Can you build an army that synergizes well with other units? Can you leverage units that are powerfully offensive, but fragile? Can you "see" the game and plan several moves/turns ahead to use your speed and position yourself to strike where weak? Can you effectively prioritize targets and objectives to maximize your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses? If you can say yes to these, then the DE may be for you. If a high learning curve means "mediocre" to you or if you can only compete by pushing landraiders full of TH/SS terminators across the board, then maybe you should skip them.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Leave DE to the players who want something more interesting than "move up LR, shoot with fast razorbacks".

Ennkay wrote:Duke Sliscus

baron Sathonyx

Trueborn x4
4 blasters, venom

Hellions x 20
stun claw

reaver x6
caltrops
heat lance x2

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x 10
hydra gauntles x2
hekatrix w/ blast pistol/agonizer
raider w/flicker field

Wyches x9
hydra gauntlets x1
hekatrix w/ power weapon/blast pistol
raider w/flicker field

2000

I think the statement that a single vindicator will destroy an entire army is not entirely accurate DAR

Also, your dex seems incorrect. You cant take a stunclaw without taking a helliarch. The entire list you posted is 1809, so unless you plan on taking a 200 point handicap, you may want to add some things.

Also, if you are planning on sticking Duke with the Trueborn, you are missing out on one of his major rules (as the trueborn will have no poisoned weapons at that point.

And the statement that a single vindi will destroy ~500 points of stuff that has little-to-no anti tank (especially after the vindi fires) is very accurate.

Again, people who saw the DEMO dex and are using the leaked DEMO dex should make sure it is identical to the ACTUAL dex that just came out... (GW has made last minute changes before, as they did in C: BA)

the DEMO dex looked amazing, what I am seeing in the ACTUAL dex seems very different...

Every codex has at least one oversubscribed slot, as a rule - Elites for Nids, for example.

HQ is DEs over subscribed.

Incubi are horrid (fleet, 3+, S4 power weapons? yes please) in Venoms. The same venoms that can fire 12 poisoned shots a turn after moving 12".

Wracks as troops choices give you tough troops that can stick around, AND dish out pain as needed.

Trueborn - 2 cannon? 'nuff said

Reavers - insane speed and can turboboost and still interact with the game.

Yes, they arent idiot proof. They never were. They are now *more* powerful than previously.
(and had codex for a week, yay, and normal preorder arrived today )

JGrand wrote:

By ignoring/mitigating the above, you are doing a great injustice to the codex by saying they are mediocre. They are not for everyone. They are not idiotproof and slap you in the face with broken choices. Can you build an army that synergizes well with other units? Can you leverage units that are powerfully offensive, but fragile? Can you "see" the game and plan several moves/turns ahead to use your speed and position yourself to strike where weak? Can you effectively prioritize targets and objectives to maximize your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses? If you can say yes to these, then the DE may be for you. If a high learning curve means "mediocre" to you or if you can only compete by pushing landraiders full of TH/SS terminators across the board, then maybe you should skip them.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Leave DE to the players who want something more interesting than "move up LR, shoot with fast razorbacks".

Oh I certaintly agree with this! I actually love the glass cannon strategy.

I LOVE how they are the new "hard to use army". I LOVE that in order to get a good raider, it's going to cost you around 80 points, and be paper thin. As weird as it sounds, it's going to require careful deployment, and good manueovering - that sounds fun.

I would just appreciate it if most of my special characters weren't unusable, and at least 3 entire units were not even feasible for use in any army whatsoever.

The way I look at it is this. It's a 5th Edition codex. You can't make throwaway units in it, because you ruin the entire meta of the army in the longrun. I just foresee every other army getting it's 5th Edition updates (and maybe even some MEQs getting their 6th), and the Dark Eldar are left in the dust again because they're unable to use some of their units, and change with the times. It sucks.

It's a knee jerk reaction, sure, and one I won't see for quite some time, but you have to admit it is there to some degree. Again, don't get me wrong, there are TONS of cheap as heck units in there that will rock most other army's faces off.

Do I think I'll win a lot with my Dark Eldar for a few years to come? Sure. Poisoned Weapons rock MCs, and there are plenty of other killy things to take out troops, and even more things to take out HQs. I just don't think my lists will ever be that diversified, thanks to so many things being useless.

Phil Kelly's books always have some overcosted, take only for fun stuff in it. DE is unshockingly no different but these units are almost all special characters (and there's still a couple of amazing SCs also). Really think its a bit of a red herring to focus on drazor and what have you, even the IG and SWs have their stinkers.

OP is missing or failing to mention some of the better things in the dex. Like the option to take wracks as troops. And wracks eat MEq pretty handily for their points by the way, between dual liquifier and an easy to gain 4+ poison with reroll. They are a great addition to some solid troop choices and its not like most players won't be taking a homonculous anyways. ANd that's just one unit -- most got better or stayed just as viable (and the few new units are pretty good too).

Also find it laughable that they lost their MEq killing edge. Because dissies got retooled? Because there's a bit less dark lance spam? Because they lost the retinue rule like every other codex since med 4ed? I think you missed a good deal of info in your read of the codex. DE look to me to be MSU killers -- able to play MSU themselves and handily deal with the min sized units that are all the rage.

Still need to playtest and Im far from a long time DE player (more a fan of their rules and style, if not their horrible range of 3ed models) but I'm pretty optimistic about this codex. It has one of the pre-reqs for greatness that many dexes fail to have and thats varied options for anti-mech/infantry or what have you in every slot. Might not be top-teir but it sure seems to be top of the middle teir (if you believe in such things).

They can kill razorback spam vehicles, then eat the small 5 man units inside to get FNP. Then FC when they eat the next "MSU" unit.

I agree that DE are still MEQ killers. Massed splinter weaponry will take down MEQ just fine - you got a 3+ save? Great! Now make 30 of them please.

The real problem for DE will be massed mech. Loads of speeders, kans, razorbacks, chimeras, etc. are going to be the bane of DE. I know alot of people will read this and scoff - they still think that the dark lance is good at popping armor. Remember, a dark lance or blaster still only has just less than an 8% chance to destroy or wreck an AV12 vehicle. I haven't been able to test Grotesques or Beasts out yet - I think these may be the best way to deal with armor.

For the most part, I really like what they did with the new codex. It does appear to be extremely balanced. I will miss some of my old favorite tactics - 30+ inch charge range for the Arcon - but I still like the options.

I am surprised that no vehicle has the ability to outflank. For a sneaky, piratical, raiding army - where are the outflankers? Maybe they thought it was too much with the speed and ability to assault out of a transport?

Like others have said in this post, I do think we'll end up seeing many different DE builds. We might even see all foot DE - either using a grotesque wall for cover or popping out of a WWP.

If others see a practical use for Mandrakes, please let me know. I'm not trying to be Captian whiny pants but they do seem to be very underwhelming.

Aetherse wrote:
Together it is 1750 points.

It has 5 S4 ap d6 flamers, 12 Dark Lances and both Jet Fighters have 4 S6 ap 5 Large Blast missiles that they can spam in one turn if they want to.

I got 1690(points for the list), and against things like MSU SW and just about any BA list, you are still getting crushed. LB still crushes you.. really any competitve list still crushes you when you are playing DE.

And to those who are thinking "Well its not fair to compare them against the top competitve lists out there"... guess what, you can't use that as an argument against someone claiming that they are UNCOMPETITIVE.

Skarboy wrote:
I won't, actually, provide full lists because if folks can't figure them out on their own, I won't be able to explain it to them.

I don't want you to explain a list, I want you to present a list... its not that hard...

Skarboy wrote:
It's not my responsibility to try to drive up DE interest or hand-hold folks through their army selection process.

Then why are you posting in a thread about DE interest... and why did you post this:

Skarboy wrote:
All I'm stating for folks, as a counterpoint to those denouncing the DE as mediocre, is that they have exceptional potential if you unlock them.

Skarboy wrote:
Yes, you need to have some ability to conceptualize an entire functioning army and that examining units or even shoddy "best of" type lists in a vacuum will not clue you in on their abilities. But they have, amongst other things:

Competitve gaming requires meta-gaming, metagaming involves "best ofs". If you aren't interested in competitve gaming, stay out of a conversation about the mediocrety of an army race. Otherwise you sound like someone saying somthing along the lines of "While I don't like competitive racing, and don't really pay too much attention to which cars are doing best, I think that the Honda Civic is the fastest car cause I was able to drive it pretty fast once".

Now, onto the list of "pros"

Skarboy wrote:
-Versatile troop choices that can do multiple tasks and can be easily customized to fit need(s)

What? Examples?

Skarboy wrote:
-Some exceptionally good hammer units out of multiple force org slots

Really, cause all the ones I've seen come from the "Elites" section (not counting HQs)

Skarboy wrote:
-A cheap, force-multiplying HQ choice and several other HQ choices that affect the game larger than just being CC monsters

Orks, SM, and others do it MUCH better...

Skarboy wrote:
-Several hard-hitting alpha strike units for both infantry and vehicles

WTF are you takling about?

Skarboy wrote:
-Webway portals manipulate the reserves and gives you unequaled battlefield area control, as well as an ability to launch hammer units with long reach thanks to fleet and other rules

Unless they kill/disable your portal holder early, which is easy. Even if they don't, they can surround your portal and cut off its use pretty easily...

Skarboy wrote:
-Access to excellent special weapons, including the best flamers in the game

Breath of Chaos/Wind of Chaos

LR Redeemers flame cannon

Incinerators

(there are others, hell I would even put Burnas at a higher list, you can put 15 of them in a squad and not only are they flamers, but you can use them as PWs if you want to instead...)

they really arent that great, they are only "really good" 50% of the time...

Skarboy wrote:
-Specialists that can actually be configured to multiple roles out of different force org slots

Are you sure you aren't reading Codex: Space Marine or Codex: Imperial guard?

Skarboy wrote:
-Ability to multi-functional choices out of almost every force organization selection

While effectively the same thing as your previous point... again, I think you are reading the wrong codex...

Skarboy wrote:
-Army-wide abilities that multiply the effectiveness of many units

See, this is funny... cause there really aren't any (unless you mean StP or 'Fleet', in which case, those are "special rules" not "Army wide abilities")

Skarboy wrote:
-Ability to field several different builds, be competitive AND fluffy, and address all potential needs on the battlefield

No! You still havent listed ANY evidence that they are competitve in the current meta. All you really have said is "Incubi can kill in melee" and "FnP is broken". First off, HOW can incubi kill in melee at "extreme effectiveness" and secondly, "FnP" is not all that good on T3 squishys that arent getting armor against most fire anyway..

Skarboy wrote:
By ignoring/mitigating the above, you are doing a great injustice to the codex by saying they are mediocre. They are not for everyone. They are not idiotproof and slap you in the face with broken choices. Can you build an army that synergizes well with other units? Can you leverage units that are powerfully offensive, but fragile? Can you "see" the game and plan several moves/turns ahead to use your speed and position yourself to strike where weak? Can you effectively prioritize targets and objectives to maximize your strengths and mitigate your weaknesses? If you can say yes to these, then the DE may be for you. If a high learning curve means "mediocre" to you or if you can only compete by pushing landraiders full of TH/SS terminators across the board, then maybe you should skip them.

They aren't "High learning curve", they are "not competitive". You can make an argument that Necrons are a "High learning curve" army, but that still doesn't change the fact that they are "uncompetitive". The original statement of this thread was that "Phil Kelly is a racist" which (while admittingly was more of a joke then a serious accusation) was made due to the fact that Phil Kelly, the writer of the DE codex, made this codex weaker then his prior 5th edition works (which... IT IS! Compare the SCs of the DE to that of the SW or the BA for more details...).

Its a weaker codex, period.
Can you use it to beat weaker players? Sure! Grats to you!
Can you use it to make fun and interesting combos that are versitile and good counters to your local gaming group? Absolutely!
Will it be winning the Indy GT or 'Ard boys? Not anytime soon!

Its like the Tyranids codex. Its not useless, but its not at the same level as BA/SW/IG.

tl;dr: If you are a competitive player, wait for the GK codex, it will probably be broken as hell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

winterman wrote: Might not be top-teir but it sure seems to be top of the middle teir (if you believe in such things).

this

I still don't see how mephi could make vect worry, vect goes first, always wounds on a 3+ has preferred enemy, hits on 3+. New Archons have a better chance against mephi then the old ones, yea you need a 6 to wound but you only need one of them to wound and he's dead, shadow field did get nerfed a bit but its still not likely that you'll fail it. It only fails against that lone guardsmen, ALWAYS.

Ok raven and razorwing can move 12 and still shoot, stormraven can move 24 and still shoot, heck it can even shoot two different units. I'm not saying their bad but compared to the other units of its type it should have been better.

I got 1690(points for the list), and against things like MSU SW and just about any BA list, you are still getting crushed. LB still crushes you.. really any competitve list still crushes you when you are playing DE.

And to those who are thinking "Well its not fair to compare them against the top competitve lists out there"... guess what, you can't use that as an argument against someone claiming that they are UNCOMPETITIVE.

How is MSU SW going to wreck this? Grey Hunters are just normal tactical when fighting Wyches, Liquifiers can annihilate whole squads and everything and their mother has FNP so flamers aren't going to do much. TWCs are going to lose to wyches (enjoy your -2 attacks).

BA would be harder nut to crack, switching some Dark Lances to Disintegrators to negate FNP might be useful. And as I have 60 points to spare according to your calculations I can add more agonizers.

No! You still havent listed ANY evidence that they are competitve in the current meta. All you really have said is "Incubi can kill in melee" and "FnP is broken". First off, HOW can incubi kill in melee at "extreme effectiveness" and secondly, "FnP" is not all that good on T3 squishys that arent getting armor against most fire anyway..

I don't feel like responding to each post of the back and forth "this isn't/is right". Bottom line, we don't have an incredible idea yet. From what I've seen they are better than their former incarnation which was doing pretty well in 5th. Here's my early take:

HQ:
Archon is less good, but still pretty potent. Can go toe to toe with most characters and win. You need to have him attack the right situation though. That's true with just about everything.
Wytch HQ- for 100ish she is an ok addition. Not world beating but decent.
SC's- Both Duke Scicilus and the Hellion HQ are great choices in a build based around them
Court of the Archon- looks good in high point games
Hamonculus- look like they will be nice additions/attachments to squads for more ummph

Overall: HQ better than ever

Elites:
Incubi-squad of 5 naked with an Archon in a Venom looks like a nice little unit
Mandrakes-suck
Grotesques-suck
Trueborn-We will be seeing lots of them.
Superwytches- meh, too many points

Elites: They seem ok. Hit or miss really. Still, the Trueborn with 4 specials will be a staple.

Troops:
Warriors-better than ever
Wracks- very solid looking unit.
Wytchs- still look pretty great

Troops: Overall look like they are better. StP will help a lot. At the very least we won't have Raider squads starting outside their Raiders so that the foot squads can jack them ala old dex

Fast Attack:
Hellions- very viable looking
Beastmasters- look nice in the right list-especially Razorwing flocks
Bikers- meh... nothing special
Scourges-suck

FA: Overall seems like there are some interesting units. A bit hit or miss but the Hellions seem nice

Heavy Support:
Ravager- better than before (stop crying about plasma cannons)
Voidraven- pricey but seems decent to good
Razorwing- looks pretty versatile with the missile options
Talos/new Talos- better than before

HS: Looks much more versatile. No more 3x Ravagers=no brainer.

The codex seems to be entirely better on paper. The old one was still competitive in 5th and I see this one being that way as well. There's going to be a learning curve, tough list building, and synergy needed. People hate that stuff...whatever. Not a big deal.

They aren't "High learning curve", they are "not competitive". You can make an argument that Necrons are a "High learning curve" army, but that still doesn't change the fact that they are "uncompetitive". The original statement of this thread was that "Phil Kelly is a racist" which (while admittingly was more of a joke then a serious accusation) was made due to the fact that Phil Kelly, the writer of the DE codex, made this codex weaker then his prior 5th edition works (which... IT IS! Compare the SCs of the DE to that of the SW or the BA for more details...).

Its a weaker codex, period.
Can you use it to beat weaker players? Sure! Grats to you!
Can you use it to make fun and interesting combos that are versitile and good counters to your local gaming group? Absolutely!
Will it be winning the Indy GT or 'Ard boys? Not anytime soon!

Its like the Tyranids codex. Its not useless, but its not at the same level as BA/SW/IG.

tl;dr: If you are a competitive player, wait for the GK codex, it will probably be broken as hell.

So in your extensive playtesting you have found them to be "uncompetitive" already? WARNING: NO ONE BUY THEM! This guy already figured it out. They suck! extensive playtesting at Narrowminded In a Vacuum Headquarters reveal them to be horrible!

Id say its a little early to claim something isnt competitive since the army isnt even "officially" out yet. sure some people are getting their codex but I cant even buy mine at my store yet

Aetherse wrote:How is MSU SW going to wreck this? Grey Hunters are just normal tactical when fighting Wyches, Liquifiers can annihilate whole squads and everything and their mother has FNP so flamers aren't going to do much. TWCs are going to lose to wyches (enjoy your -2 attacks).

Good luck getting FnP from those Las/Plas razorbacks, not to mention those melta/plasma guns in the hands of those "useless" grey hunters. Your FnP also is basically just a 4+ armor save against ANY AND ALL shooting from the SW as well (and ask anyone whos "Relied" on 4+s).

Liquids aren't that great... str 4 means they are wounding marines on a 4+ (50%) and 50% of the time they WON'T pierce armor (ap4+ doesn't pierce) so yeah... and again, they can stay out of flamer range and still wreck your wracks.

TWCs are not going to lose to Wyches, (enjoy your wounding on 6s, hitting on 4s, while being wounded on 3s ((if not 2s)) and hit on 3s)

BA would be harder nut to crack, switching some Dark Lances to Disintegrators to negate FNP might be useful. And as I have 60 points to spare according to your calculations I can add more agonizers.

TBH i'd cut the Prow of the archon boat, give the archon a field and take a third SSylesh, it won't do much, but it will at least keep your power player that much more survivable. Remember that BA have fast vindis (meaning that, where Roads are present, they can move from OUTSIDE lance range and fire their cannon)

Either way, both match ups are nasty against that list... (hell, 2 cruaders wound mop up after the lances are taken down, which, a smart BA player would have no issue with)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laosiamus wrote:Id say its a little early to claim something isnt competitive since the army isnt even "officially" out yet. sure some people are getting their codex but I cant even buy mine at my store yet

I got mine via the mail, from GW, its official (thus the picture on page 1).

and its called being on the cutting edge, if not, how would you know that Windows 8 is gonna suck like Vista?

Also, in other news, I'm taking a liking to Wracks, if for no other reason then their names...

Wrackem Wrack, Wrackem Wrack, Wrackem Wrack, WRACKBALL!

I got 1690(points for the list), and against things like MSU SW and just about any BA list, you are still getting crushed. LB still crushes you.. really any competitve list still crushes you when you are playing DE.

And to those who are thinking "Well its not fair to compare them against the top competitve lists out there"... guess what, you can't use that as an argument against someone claiming that they are UNCOMPETITIVE.

How is MSU SW going to wreck this? Grey Hunters are just normal tactical when fighting Wyches, Liquifiers can annihilate whole squads and everything and their mother has FNP so flamers aren't going to do much. TWCs are going to lose to wyches (enjoy your -2 attacks).

BA would be harder nut to crack, switching some Dark Lances to Disintegrators to negate FNP might be useful. And as I have 60 points to spare according to your calculations I can add more agonizers.

And then you mention the infamous Leafblower... Sorry to burst your bubble but Leafblower is mostly made of hot air and one BOLS writer's big ego. It's track record hasn't been that amazing (check ETC for example). Dark Eldar can exploit its dead zones easily and annihilate bubble wrap squads for free tokens.

I really really want you to tell me why do you think that these lists will be unbeatable by DE when both players have equal skill-level? Now it just seems that you make strong statements and then try to switch the burden of proof to your opponents.

how many games have you played with the new rules Ren?? Thats what I meant by to early to claim non-competitive

Modquisition on. This thread has been reported. Lets all ratchet it down a little bit and remember, very few poeple actually have this codex yet.

Laosiamus wrote:how many games have you played with the new rules Ren?? Thats what I meant by to early to claim non-competitive

Yeah I get your point, thats also why I mentioned that in an earlier post (see "3.5" on page one) but based on what I am reading here in the new official de, they seem alot weaker then they once were...

Sure Hesperax is fast, but she isn't written by dan abnett

Update. Got my new codex in my hands also! Wracks and Haemonculi starting the game with a pain token EACH is nice. Looks like my love affair with Incubi shall continue as well given their extra killing power. Hellions are also pretty tempting to field in future in their own right.

Ah leafblower....bubble wrapped squads for free pain tokens, essentially.

Apparently being able to move 36", and the huge advantage that gives, hasnt yet occured to DAR. Bikes are very good at removing bubble wraps (unit of 6 for the 2 melta lances, 2 caltrops gives 2D6 S6, 4D3 S4 hits. On average a unit of ten guard fall over...) letting you shoot more effectively. Extra range means you get behind the guard parking lot which cant turn around at all effectively unless you let the IG player cheat.

FAR stronger codex than their old one. Just requies even more thought and skill to play.

Ah leafblower....bubble wrapped squads for free pain tokens, essentially.

Apparently being able to move 36", and the huge advantage that gives, hasnt yet occured to DAR. Bikes are very good at removing bubble wraps (unit of 6 for the 2 melta lances, 2 caltrops gives 2D6 S6, 4D3 S4 hits. On average a unit of ten guard fall over...) letting you shoot more effectively. Extra range means you get behind the guard parking lot which cant turn around at all effectively unless you let the IG player cheat.

FAR stronger codex than their old one. Just requies even more thought and skill to play.

I'd agree. Speed kills here. Not only that, Dark Eldar are MORE durable now. If your opponent is fielding a heavy MSU list, they are going to be buffing your squads with FNP very quickly. If not, it isn't very hard to get pain tokens to start the game. Plenty of units give them out. Finally, the flickerfield (while not the be all to end all of durability) does provide some form of constant save for a relatively low cost. The ability to move 12" and fire all 3 of the Ravagers guns means that it can come in from reserves or DS in to do some real damage. The other HS choices give some nice flexibility as well.

Which brings me to my main point: choice. To me, a successful codex is one that allows for a myriad of different builds that can compete. Of course there will always be "very good" and "uncompetitive" units. But at the end of the day, I don't see there being a mono build that players are forced to use (like the old DE dex and plenty of other codices). I'm not going to sit here and claim the new Dark Eldar will be the easy button that is SW or BA, or provide the power of IG, but I do think they will be competitive. Hell, the old dex was competitive and it isn't nearly as good or flexible as the new one.

The key in lots of ways is the power of the troop section. Three viable troop choices allows players to create different builds. Hell, I'd bet that I can create a Hamonculus fluff based list that could be competitive in most games.

I live and die by the Shield of Sanguinius for Blood Angels, which is limited by a 6" range from my Librarian.

The constant 5++ even from close combat attacks is extremely underestimated. It's awesome.

I don't know what the OP is smoking because the codex is fine outside of a few units (mandrakes are pure fail and I'm not to keen on the Wytch HQ). There is a couple Special Characters that suck (Vect is overcosted, the decapator continues the mandrake fail train), but thats every book. Be prepared to see many army lists with The Duke, and Lady Malays.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Aetherse wrote:
Not many viable hqs have EW, I know Logan and DP have it but lack of EW hasn't stop people from using Mephiston (who is more expensive than Vect and loses to Vect 1 on 1) or Vulcan or Farseers. Archon's cout allows Nob level of wound allocation and Drazhar is absolutely impervious against hidden PK/PF because of his crazy ass jump.

Sanguinor

Any wolflord (saga of bear)
Why would you run saga of the Bear on this guy? Warrior born with a SS and just avoid hidden powerfists when you consolidate.

Any Rune Priest (Saga of bear)
Now you're just naming crap. Rune priests cant have saga of the bear.

Codex: Chaos Daemons (the entire dex)

Abbadon
I only ever see kids run him...

Phoenix lords
Because you see these alot... And for their points EW isn't going to save them.

just to name a few (there are many more)


Also, how do you figure Mephiston loses to Vect?

Assuming Vect has charge, vect will have 7 attacks missing 3 rerolling missting 1 causing 4 wounds(he does not reroll these). Mephiston strikes back hitting 3, rerolling, hitting 4(assuming vect fails his ld 6 test, which is more then likely). Wounding 2 rerolling wounding 3. if even 1 of these wounds passes the invul, vect dies. (Str 6 double toughs him). Also, BA have MUCH better ways of keeping mephiston safe (LRs and SRs to name a few) and buff units like S-Priests. Mephiston is also a lot more likely to get the charge (with 24" effective charge range) which further limits vects ability.

Also, Vect gets 1 shotted by a psycannon. So boo on him.

And yet Mehpeston has no invulerable save. 6 Dark Lances/Void Lances/Blasters over 2 turns will kill him and the land raider he is hiding behind quite easily. Plus we dont need Vect. A barely 150 point squad of Wyches can hold mepheston up for several turns, especially with that agonizer.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Aetherse wrote:
Urien now has Clone Field and t5 and mad regen, doesn't cost much either, he is a Coven version of Archon, Decapitator is not very useful though.

Urien's clone field is good in CC I guess, but outside of that, the lack of invul makes him very vunerable to much of the str 10 out there (believe me, there is alot). Also, 1 wound a turn is not "mad regen". He only has 3 total and he costs 190 points, and takes a FULL hq slot (not 1 of 3 Haemonculi).

What? You want to run him and 5 haemonculi? SC have never been incredible sans for 1 or 2 every other book that is released. Most of them are just themed or for fun.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Aetherse wrote:
You can get free pain tokens with Haemonculi, Drugs and shooting kills also give them.

Free pain tokens from haemonculi? Where did you read this? Do you mean the 1 pain token they get at the beginning of the game? Cool! Still not going to break that 4-6 average I listed.

Well... 2-3 to begin with, and then kill 2-4 units of MARINES, who sit minimum squads in vehicles and are 100% boring to play with or against. However then you hit other atmies like Eldar, who focus on their foot troops for mass fire and killing squads, Tau, with all the Kroot and fire warriors, and especially Tyranids, whose Tervigons you make useless as soon as you put your army on the table.

Furthermore, you dont need any more than 4-6. Wracks start with 1, and only need 1 more for their FC, easily obtained by an attached haemy.Wyches only need the FNP for survivability, and so only need to kill one squad, or maybe just get it immediately on the roll of a 6 for Combat Drugs. Warriors dont even need Tokens, but still only need 1 for the FNP survivability. Plus you can use ICs to swap Tokens between squads easily.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar absolutely murder meq just mathhammer it out if you want to know their average effectiveness. There are some things that most of the people can't see immediately, like Hekatrix killing TH/SS termies reliably.

Cool, too bad not all meq are TH/SS termies. The new DE are not NEARLY as good as they used to be against MEQ...

I beg to differ, they are much better now. 10 point Wracks that charge in with FNP and 3 attacks each rerolling wounds because of poison, plus the two Liquifier guns at S4 AP(D6) that shred squads in half no matter what you are fighting, 10 Point wyches that when they get FNP can just laugh at MEQ trying to hurt them (4++,4+FNP). And also have defencive grenades.

Now you are going to cry about our squads being shot up by bolters, but I fail to see how we will lose more than 1-3 models because I will claim a 4+ Cover from area terrain and a 4+ FNP.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Aetherse wrote:
Dark Eldar won't be easy use though but that is for entirely different reasons than what you mentioned. Rapid Fire is their bane as always, multishot weapons like HW Bolters, Scatter Lasers and Multi Lasers are going to be pain in the arse too but those weaknesses have always been there.

I'm guessing you don't have the new dex... only 1 weapon is RF, and if you mean them taking shots by RF, then it really depends on what is shooting them... I honestly believe you are still in the 3rd edition DE mindset based on what you have posted...

What? He just said that mass of fire will hurt us. And it will, but not much because of our tasty 4+ Cover/4+ FNP saves.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Haven't played a lot of DE with the old codex.
One thing that I felt (maybe incorrectly due to inexperience) was that a lot of the points values and choice limitations were rather restrictive.

yes

??? Maybe if you want to run too many elite/fast attack but I found the codex to be just fine. 3 HS, 5 Troops (3 of which are Wracks), and 3 Haemies is all I need. Its not the codex, its people thinking that elites make the army. Troops make the army, elites support it a little bit here and there.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
This I hoped would change with the new book.
Have these hopes been dashed?

yes

Before you didn't have nearly enough options, now you have too many and you are still unhappy? You do know that you can build more than one list right? There is no law stating you can only ever use one list.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Was also wanting to use Harlies

so sorry... if you want to waste your elites slots, more power to you, but they really don't have much of a home in the DE dex with the 7 other elites chocies....

Yes harlies have been and will continue to be suckish. But thats ok, because you have Incubi and wyches now.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Care to give an example of a list(from the new codex) that would fear only a handful of builds?

Haemonculi w/Liquifier Gun, Venom Blade, and Vexator Mask 75
Haemonculi w/Liquifier Gun and Vexator Mask 70

5xTruborn
3xBlasters, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
170 Points

5xTruborn
3xBlasters, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
170 Points

5xTruborn
2xBlasters, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
155 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

9xWracks
Liquifier Gun, Acothyst w/Agonizer, Raider w/Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies, and Dark Lance
205 Points

9xWracks
Liquifier Gun, Acothyst w/Agonizer, Raider w/Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies, and Dark Lance
205 Points

Ravager w/Flickerfield 115

Ravager w/Flickerfield 115

Ravager w/Flickerfield 115

2000 Points

Turn 1, Move up Venoms, Darklances target key anti-tank units.
Turn 2, Remaining tanks get Blastered and disembarked units get Dakkaed away by the Venoms
Turn 3, Wracks clean up the mess

The only real list that gives this trouble is the razorback spam since they carry a lot of heavy weapons and MEQs are not really easy to Dakka-away.

My main point was that there didn't previously seem to be many viable options, and I was getting the impression that this still may be the case.

Harlies could have been another option.
I like the fluff. And no I won't in that case play Eldar instead, becuase I don't want another Army.

I was simply hoping it might be worth buying some new figures to convert to Harlies. I am not gonna buy new DE models just for the sake of them being supercool.
I already have enough of the old ones. Heretical though it may seem, I'm happy with that.

But thanks for the input, will save my cash for something else.

Probably food

Brother SRM wrote:When the Tyranids codex came out everybody was saying that the sky was falling because they had an awful, awful codex. 7 months on people have actually learned to play the army, and there's no real outstanding problems aside from some poorly worded rules.

In other words, don't let the OP's first impressions sway you from having an army of totally sweet looking space pirates. They'll be fine.

^
Only sensible post in this thread....

Sure this is a "First impressions" thread but how can you possibly know if a code is junk without having played with/against it for a decent amount of time.
Atleast if it all goes wrong we can still use the "well your models look gak compaired to mine" card

I find the notion of this codex being "underwelming" not amusing, but in fact a, LOL-fest.

Almost the entirety of 40kWreckingCrew (which houses several MULTIPLE GT winners) are hurriedly getting their own DE armies together with bloodthirsty relish.

Many HIGH-LEVEL tournament players from many different camps have given this codex a complete stamp of approval...all you gotta do is look around the internet a bit.


The Dark Eldar Codex may not be as OBVIOUS as other codex's out there, but the power and tools for winning high level competetive play is very much in there.

If you cannot see it, go back to your space-wolf army, go to some GT's this year, and watch how fast you get eviscerated by a Dark Eldar player who goes on to win the Tournament.



Watch, I guarantee people will be winning with this dex right alongside Mech Guard, Space Wolves, and BA's. Not posting any lists, not quoting any rules, simply saying....it's gonna happen. This dex is VERY competetive.

the DE army will make mince meat out of the thunderwolf army. however I think the missile launcher spam will do just fine..... I mean its exactly what you want to knock down all those armor 10 vehicles, right?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the DE army will make mince meat out of the thunderwolf army. however I think the missile launcher spam will do just fine..... I mean its exactly what you want to knock down all those armor 10 vehicles, right?

unless your opponent doesn't takes a DE mech list, which is doable in this codex.

You know what's 'underwelming'?

8 Incubi and an Archon with Feel No Pain getting a first turn charge off against a target 29" away.

Yea, that sucks pretty bad.



(my list does it)

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the DE army will make mince meat out of the thunderwolf army. however I think the missile launcher spam will do just fine..... I mean its exactly what you want to knock down all those armor 10 vehicles, right?

But then again if DE can get into melee by maneuvering well the Wolves are in world of trouble. Dark Eldar will most likely lose in a prolonged shoot out though.

You shouldn't state that some random list is unbeatable because the decisions and luck during the game are a more important factor than pure listbuilding. No one really knows what kind of beasts DE are and most of the people can't learn to beat a new army by just reading the book instead of actually playing.

DE players will have very good codex in this edition and the number of options for both fluff-bunnies and WAAC-nerds is just amazing.

Personally I can't go back to my Wolfies as they
are still on the sprue

It is going to be a little while before I will be able to get a new DE codex. So it would be nice to get some feel for what to expect beforehand.

If DE are not an easy Army to use, and I have little experience in 40K let alone the DE playstyle, it is not so straightforward to see what more experience players can, so it would be nice to get some benefit of your experience rather than scorn and contempt.

I realise people will have different expectations and some will be disappointent more than others, but please bear in mind some of us are trying to learn.

Aetherse wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the DE army will make mince meat out of the thunderwolf army. however I think the missile launcher spam will do just fine..... I mean its exactly what you want to knock down all those armor 10 vehicles, right?

But then again if DE can get into melee by maneuvering well the Wolves are in world of trouble. Dark Eldar will most likely lose in a prolonged shoot out though.

You shouldn't state that some random list is unbeatable because the decisions and luck during the game are a more important factor than pure listbuilding. No one really knows what kind of beasts DE are and most of the people can't learn to beat a new army by just reading the book instead of actually playing.

DE players will have very good codex in this edition and the number of options for both fluff-bunnies and WAAC-nerds is just amazing.

well assuming no wild swings of luck and roughly equal playing abilities. thunderwolves are a lot easier to deal with if you have poisoned weapons, which DE do everywhere, so thats why I say they'll be able to make mince meat out of them. also they can hit the thunder wolves with higher initiative close combat nastiness, so I think those guys will be... errr.... at a serious disadvantage.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Aetherse wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:the DE army will make mince meat out of the thunderwolf army. however I think the missile launcher spam will do just fine..... I mean its exactly what you want to knock down all those armor 10 vehicles, right?

But then again if DE can get into melee by maneuvering well the Wolves are in world of trouble. Dark Eldar will most likely lose in a prolonged shoot out though.

You shouldn't state that some random list is unbeatable because the decisions and luck during the game are a more important factor than pure listbuilding. No one really knows what kind of beasts DE are and most of the people can't learn to beat a new army by just reading the book instead of actually playing.

DE players will have very good codex in this edition and the number of options for both fluff-bunnies and WAAC-nerds is just amazing.

well assuming no wild swings of luck and roughly equal playing abilities. thunderwolves are a lot easier to deal with if you have poisoned weapons, which DE do everywhere, so thats why I say they'll be able to make mince meat out of them. also they can hit the thunder wolves with higher initiative close combat nastiness, so I think those guys will be... errr.... at a serious disadvantage.

Yeah DE will probably reduce the number of Rock armies around because no one likes to have half of their points tarpitted or even killed by simple Wyches. Bike councils for example will be very afraid of Shattershard, template that doesn't allow saves of any kind and removes models from the table if they fail a toughness test.

yes. agree. the wounds test thing looked pretty weird too. I think thats the first time they've made you take a characterstic test on your wounds value.

29"? Most i get is 27" (12", disembark ~2.9, fleet 6", assault 6")

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
If DE are not an easy Army to use, and I have little experience in 40K let alone the DE playstyle, it is not so straightforward to see what more experience players can, so it would be nice to get some benefit of your experience rather than scorn and contempt.

I realise people will have different expectations and some will be disappointent more than others, but please bear in mind some of us are trying to learn.

Sorry Chibi, I like you (and your avatar) and everything, but this isn't a particularly viable argument. Codex's such as Dark Eldar and Eldar (and arguably Daemons, Grey Knights etc.) are known for having a steep learning curve.

If you go with Dark Eldar or Eldar you should really be expecting it to be a difficult learning process, but if anything that can make the codex more appealing to some. Some codices are supposed to be more forgiving (MeQ) to help the more inexperienced players, Dark Eldar and Eldar aren't. They are supposed to be tricky to use and unless you are willing to face this learning curve then they really aren't the army for you...


For one thing, Chibi's post isn't even what the OP was suggesting, but many of the (more recent) posts here have shown how much support there is for the Dark Eldar codex and its competitiveness. Similarly, these posts have been provided a lot more support and evidence than those of the OP...
The general consensus (and rightly so IMHO) is that the Dark Eldar Codex is really good, still very competitive but still difficult to use. And rightly so IMHO.

So here we all are eagerly awaiting with anticipation to the newest codex and release....and I we have to go on is that Kelly is racist? Does anyone care about caustic remarks being made? May this thread die harder than bruce Willis!

nosferatu1001 wrote:29"? Most i get is 27" (12", disembark ~2.9, fleet 6", assault 6")

+2" for starting sideways on the deployment edge and pivoting b4 movement. Raiders are LOONG!

Sort of cheap, but from my understanding...everyone is doing it nowadays.

Ah right, forgot the pivot trick

Everyone has been doing it since 3rd actually....

I understand all that Dave

But what I was getting from this thread was contradictory.
If the concensus from long time players is that the new codex is giving the DE a lift (which seemed necessary imho whether or not they are not easy to play) without making them crazy or over powered, then i am reassured.

Also the learning curve may be steep it just means I need to learn. Some of that will come from others' experiences.
I wasn't asking for easy fixes.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Also, it confirms the rumor that Phil Kelly hate Tyranids (as this dex COMPLETELY smashes Gav's nid book).

Good to see a well founded comparison with Gav's Tyranid book, when everyone else thinks that Robin Cruddace has written it

I think it's a great codex but maybe someone held a gun to Phil's head while he wrote it.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I think it's a great codex but maybe someone held a gun to Phil's head while he wrote it.

"Someone" obviously is the people who waited 12 years for this, but what makes you say that?

What I meant was the codex appears to be very balanced and not over the top like his SW codex.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:What I meant was the codex appears to be very balanced and not over the top like his SW codex.

Because D.E is not S.M? Duh...

Kroothawk wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Also, it confirms the rumor that Phil Kelly hate Tyranids (as this dex COMPLETELY smashes Gav's nid book).

Good to see a well founded comparison with Gav's Tyranid book, when everyone else thinks that Robin Cruddace has written it

My mistake, I think I had C:CD open and tabbed to the wrong PDF when I wrote the post.>_< I forgot Cruddace did the new book. Either way, it breaks that as well.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:What I meant was the codex appears to be very balanced and not over the top like his SW codex.

See, herein lies the problem that I am describing.

Compare DE 5th to:

E: 4th
T: 4th
N: 4th
O: 4th
CSM: 4th (kind)
CD: 4th
And others (including DA, BT, DH and WH)

It seems balanced/Pretty good.

Compare to other 5th editions...

SM >>> DE
BA >>>>>> DE
SW >>>> DE
IG >>> DE
Nids >> DE (Not one-on-one mind you, DE could probably smash new nids in a head to head 75% of the time, but over all, the nids have more playability ((which should say something right there)) then the new DE)

The problem I see with this dex is that the other 4 5th edition dexs didn't seem "Over the top" as much as "Setting a new standard", which pre-faqnerf the nids almost held up to (some would argue that they met the standard before BA came out). The issue with this new DE dex is that is just does not live up to that standard... now, if the new standard is "Imperium codexs will be in a league of their own compared to non-imperium armies" (a statement that will be tested pending the next codex release) then yes, for a "Non-imperium league codex" the new DE dex is impressive. Unfortunately, current tournaments don't distinguish between the two classes. Currently, the DE dex would be the king of Class N, but the SM/SW/BA(BA closer to Class C then anything...) would be more like a Class B wherein IG and Nids would be Class A (if you are familiar with rally car race classes)

So again: If you don't play 40K in the competitive circuit, you have nothing to worry about, you will probably have many a fun game with these guys with your friends. They have a ton of different fun combos that a good player (or really good reader, outside of the comp-circuit skill matters very little compared to "dice luck" can wield quite effectively. But put up against the staple Tourney BA/SW lists, these guys will fall short (outside of "miraculous rolling" but then again, even Crons can be 'super-effective' with this)

Quite simply, Dark Eldar will be fine within the competitive scene as-well.
They won't be as blatantly OTT or Powerful as most of the 5th edition Codices as by their very nature, they are Eldar and therefore are powerful when coordinated, not isolated.
There are no real 'must take' choices within the new Dark Eldar codex and whether you see that as a good or a bad thing is up to interpretation, but ultimately they are still a very capable army.

Eldar can still stand up in 5th edition when used properly, although they struggle more these days.
Imagine how their NEW, 5th Edition Counter-parts are going to do. Very Well.

Except, as the last 4 pages should hopefully have hammered home, the new dex IS as powerful as the rest.

Yes, there are no obvious "hit the spam button" lists. Big deal.

YOur conclusion is suspect as you have insufficient evidence to back up your assertions, no objective evidence, and plenty of people who DO play competitively that contradict you, quite strongly.

DE are IG *killers*, and if you cant see that after 4 pages you should try rereading....

Is there some way to consolidate all this.... "stuff".... as it's spreading like wildfire.

I agree man, I messaged a Mod yesterday and the general response was to report any duplicate threads, which I will for any news threads on the topic at-least.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, as the last 4 pages should hopefully have hammered home, the new dex IS as powerful as the rest.

Yes, there are no obvious "hit the spam button" lists. Big deal.

The "hit the spam button" lists aren't what I am talking about, I'm talking about the meta, match them up against the current tourny winners, and if you can honestly make a list that does well against the current meta, please have the confidence to post it...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
YOur conclusion is suspect as you have insufficient evidence to back up your assertions, no objective evidence, and plenty of people who DO play competitively that contradict you, quite strongly.

Quite the contrary. If there were 4 pages that said Oxygen was toxic to human beings, that wouldn't change the fact that the statement is incorrect. People have said "They're good if you can play" but have yet to provide any specific evidence as to "How" that statement is correct, in fact, the few lists that have been submitted as evidence have already been proven to have easy counters in the current meta.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DE are IG *killers*, and if you cant see that after 4 pages you should try rereading....

Leafblower DECIMATE the DE codex, and if you are saying that DE can "kill ig" that don't run autocannons, hydras, and vendis, then yeah, but necrons can also smash situational IG lists as well, again, it doesn't mean that necrons are on the same tier as BA/IG/SW...

Just Dave wrote:Quite simply, Dark Eldar will be fine within the competitive scene as-well.
They won't be as blatantly OTT or Powerful as most of the 5th edition Codices as by their very nature, they are Eldar and therefore are powerful when coordinated, not isolated.
There are no real 'must take' choices within the new Dark Eldar codex and whether you see that as a good or a bad thing is up to interpretation, but ultimately they are still a very capable army.

I have to disagree with the core of this statement (but not any particular part in general). When you are talking "Competitve scene" 'over the top' and 'powerful' are two words you WANT to have associated with your codex. Again, I can't see a 2000 point list, that even with the best co-ordination can handle MSU ML LF SW lists, 5Pred BA lists, or Leaf-Blower. If you know of one that can consistently win(or even compete) against these, then by all means, list away.

Just Dave wrote:
Eldar can still stand up in 5th edition when used properly, although they struggle more these days.
Imagine how their NEW, 5th Edition Counter-parts are going to do. Very Well.

Except, the new DE aren't eldar. The New DE cant have Re-rolling 4+s on their vehicles that neg str 8+ to Str 8. The new DE don't have cheap squadrons of 20+ str 6 shots. The new DE don't have any of the things that make Eldar remotely viable, comparing them as such just doesn't seem right.

Basically this is what it seems like when reading the DE dex:

Do you like IG/Eldar*?

Do you like Melee?

Do you like having 12 HQ choices to pick from?

Do you like having gimmicky special weapons that could piss the crap off out of you opponents?

If you answered yes to any/all of the above, CODEX: DE!



*DISCLAIMER: The Reference to IG/Eldar is about taking alot of units for low point cost, user beware, they don't pack near the firepower of these guys, have about 20% of the transport breaking capacity and probably won't preform as well against a majority of the tournament players you will face... but they are a crap ton of fun!

~Does thAt fit betteR?

Oxygen IS toxic to humans above a certain partial pressure.

Leafblower cant touch the codex. Have you run it? We have. Lots. If you dont use your greatest advantage (speed) well, you're crippling yourself.....or if you let the guard player cheat in moving the wall. Bubble wrap dies turn one, you pop on average 3 key vehicles (hydras being the initial priority) and start to pull it apart.

Hell, your "meta" is off anyway. Leafblower is not the be all and end all, not at all.

You wont be convinced however, as you have shown in a number of places you are a closed mind.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Oxygen IS toxic to humans above a certain partial pressure.

you would...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Leafblower cant touch the codex. Have you run it? We have. Lots. If you dont use your greatest advantage (speed) well, you're crippling yourself.....or if you let the guard player cheat in moving the wall. Bubble wrap dies turn one, you pop on average 3 key vehicles (hydras being the initial priority) and start to pull it apart.

Who is we? This isn't an "Us vs Them" situation bro, its a conversation about the viability of the DE dex in the current competitive meta. I've run the figures, and against leaf blower, the DE lists I have seen/made have had nothing but trouble, again, if you have a better list, maybe I am missing something, please list it here to defend your claims... You claim speed is your greatest advantage, HOW is that helping you against 72" range that denies your skimmer saves. Against things not trying to "skimmer save FGJ" you have like 12 other auto-cannons, multi-lasers, and other bad days eating apart your army.

The fact that they outnumber your anti tank (with better weaponry all things considered) with an easy 4-1 ratio, can drop templates that deny your cover and armor and 2xT you without batting a lash is a VERY bad day for DE... so again, if you know of some magic upgrade (or more preferably a full list) that can handle this kind of threat, please let me in on it...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hell, your "meta" is off anyway. Leafblower is not the be all and end all, not at all.

Its not the be-all-end-all, but to deny it exists in meta (is this what you are doing?) would not be very tactical... Not to mention I also mentioned two famous BA/SW lists that have still yet to be countered...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You wont be convinced however, as you have shown in a number of places you are a closed mind.

Also, to be fair, I've said I'm open to the idea of being convinced, if you would be willing to provide more then loose terms (that really don't mention anything specific) as evidence...

Nos, really, i've had to think long and hard before reporting like 50% of your posts, you are overly emotional in your debates and you tend to be downright "stingy" in your responses... you really need to stop judging posts on B/W (which you seem to think that by me saying they are "Not competitive" is the equivalent of "They are total crap" which is not at ALL what I am saying) and be a bit more respectful in your words back, otherwise you come off as condecending, insulting, and overall a "pain-in-the-rear" when it comes to having to respond to your posts...

Ah sorry to correct your sweeping generalisations.

have you *actually played* a game of DE against gunline IG? You have mentioned "running the numbers" but the reality is very different - yes, they have 72" guns. the table is 48" across. Your key units for speed can move 31" / 36" a turn. Guard *cannot* castle in a corner if theyre running mech, and if they try to they screw their fire lanes.

Im not gonna throw lists out, as your dismissive attitude, exemplified in the previous but one post, shows you are a closed mind. You may SAY you are open to persuasion, but you arent. When DE are stomping face, which they will be, you may see reason.

[Finally - i dont care if you "thought long and hard", I really dont. If you have an issue, report and let the mods deal, thats what theyre here for. Or dont respond. Your choice]

To me, This:

nosferatu1001 wrote:~Snip~
Im not gonna throw lists out
~Snip~

Translates to: "I think they are good, but I don't have the necessary experience myself with the army to prove it, if I did, I would happily post up my lists to SHOW you what I am debating"

Hmmm, I wasn't expecting 4 pages of reasonable discussion...

I wanted more rage from that wonderful line ender in the OP.

:-(

I like the codex, lots of info to take in.
I like idea of the Baron... kinda sucks no power weapon, but I can live with that, esp. the relative low cost.

I'm just not too fon of Raider heavy and armor heavy it sort of pushes you into, nor am I a huge fan of the Raiders.......I'm crazy for saying it, but yea...

I think the overall problem that Nos is having is that you are making a sweeping bold statement when its still to early to tell. The new dex is fine and there are a lot of ways to deal with leafblower but it all depends on points etc etc. in an ard boyz list Vect and baron are a good way to make sure you alpha strike before they do. The duke helps with deepstriking. scourge with haywire blasters is potentially lethal. Haywire grenades on trueborn/wyches also devastating.

Ultimately you are entitled to your own opinion but I think the DE were semi competitive before and they just got better. Ive won or placed in several tourneys and I never MSUed Dark lances. So if I could do it before, it can be done now only even better

DAR - and your entire posts in this thread translates to: I dont see an utter obvious list, and my "numbers" (not actual playtime, theoryhammer. Such a useful tool to condemn a codex as "not competitive") suggest IG would beat it.

We cannot "prove" you wrong, as you have no actual experience of the army. You are convinced, from the opening post and as your prior posts have shown, that because *you* cannot see the strengths in the codex, that they dont exist.

Whereas I've played games, between 1500 and 2000 (not 2500, yet) and DE stomp face. This is why I guess indy GT (120 players next year, including some of the best players in the uk) will have a fair DE representation.

I'm just not willing to do your work for you, as you have shown your bias (especially in your claims about the lists in this thread) already.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DAR - and your entire posts in this thread translates to: I dont see an utter obvious list, and my "numbers" (not actual playtime, theoryhammer. Such a useful tool to condemn a codex as "not competitive") suggest IG would beat it.

Its math, and in a game of dice and statistics, math is relatively useful... Jus' sayin'.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
We cannot "prove" you wrong, as you have no actual experience of the army. You are convinced, from the opening post and as your prior posts have shown, that because *you* cannot see the strengths in the codex, that they dont exist.

No, math (and fact) is the only thing that seems "convinced" that when compared side-by-side to its peers in the meta, this dex offers less viable weaponry. You can tell how sharp a sword is without wielding it, ya know...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Whereas I've played games, between 1500 and 2000 (not 2500, yet) and DE stomp face. This is why I guess indy GT (120 players next year, including some of the best players in the uk) will have a fair DE representation.

Congrats, either you played bad players, rolled better then average, or you have this 'magic' list that I 'clearly can't see'. Would it really be so hard to simply display said list?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I'm just not willing to do your work for you, as you have shown your bias (especially in your claims about the lists in this thread) already.

It's not "doing my work for me", its backing your claim. If you are going to say "My horse is just as fast as anyone else horse, but I don't want to let you see it run cause that would be doing your work for you" your just wasting mine, and everyone else in this thread's, time.

Laosiamus wrote:I think the overall problem that Nos is having is that you are making a sweeping bold statement when its still to early to tell. The new dex is fine and there are a lot of ways to deal with leafblower but it all depends on points etc etc. in an ard boyz list Vect and baron are a good way to make sure you alpha strike before they do. The duke helps with deepstriking. scourge with haywire blasters is potentially lethal. Haywire grenades on trueborn/wyches also devastating.

No, what my "sweeping bold statement" is that "Dark eldar are not as strong as BA/SW" which people seem to counter with "Well they can beat IG/Nids, and they are good if you know how to use them" which really holds no real relevance... its not too early to tell how they don't stack up mathematically, its not my problem that 'someone with a blog' hasn't run the numbers yet...

Laosiamus wrote:
Ultimately you are entitled to your own opinion but I think the DE were semi competitive before and they just got better. Ive won or placed in several tourneys and I never MSUed Dark lances. So if I could do it before, it can be done now only even better

Semi-competitive =/= Competitive.

And again, its not opinion, its fact (at this point) as no evidence has been provided to the contrary...

My Opinion is that "The Dark Eldar look to be a very fun army that will lead you to victory against most opponents (especially locally) I see myself enjoying them greatly. However, as far as I have seen, the evidence and the math(fact) supports that they are not as competitive in the meta as I would have hoped to seeing as how the writer of the most competitive codexes, also wrote this book. Buyer beware, if you are a WAAC tourny player hoping to score big on the competitive circuit, but don't like the way BA/SW look (AKA Power armor) these guys are not at the level rumor speculated them to be at."

Is that better?

my statement about the DE being semi competitive was in regards to the old 3ed codex. I am interested to see this math that makes them not competitive if you dont mind

I still like my story of having my Archon and court swept off the board turn two by Mephiston, failing to assalut a DC squad with wychs the same turn, having lost my 6 jet bikes as well, and still winning the game 11-10 in turn 5.

Yeah the dex is weak as wet paper, but somehow it it has powerhouse units everywhere, hurdy dur dur.

Skarboy wrote:
I would expect that you will see several DE armies finding success at competitive tournaments throughout the coming year and it won't just be the same Raider/Lance spam armies of the last 10+ years. Those that are disappointed/underwhelmed need to look deeper. If you're expecting it to slap you in the face, you're missing the entire point of the codex. I've been reading a leaked codex for a couple weeks and have a couple dozen lists built around different concepts that use pretty much every unit in the book in some fashion or another. There is, flat out, no codex that I will fear and only a handful of builds that I will even sweat. Yes, IMO, they are THAT good if you can make them work.

OK, lets see your thoughts because I am beggared if I can see a good way through. Far as I can see the main point of this Codex is to scrub the shooty DE option (one o the few that could still smack tanks an Smurfs) and try and force you to take a high priced S3 T3 army into combat.

I've played these boyos for years, and also play Eldar, CSM, SM, IG and Orks. This reminds me of the last Eldar and CSM lists when you sort of read it through and then know, with a sinking feeling, that its largely overpriced and/or cr*p and you are back to making an army out of about 4 half decent troops types.

The Codex has lots of toys for the dreamers and fluffheads to field, but if you are looking for a relly competitive outfit, its far harder now as they are on average quite a bit more expensive for what they do. In other words you now have to choose to get a paper tiger - bites as well as it ever did, but has no staying power, or a rubber shark - lots of cheap stuff to hanfg around, and hope you can gum your opponent to death.-

IMO it's no accident that the GW battlefield is going armoured, as many of the latest Codii have taken away decent, low cost heavy weapons AT from the armies.

I'm just going to throw this in here. Quoted from earlier in the thread, not the most powerful list by any means but still shows the potential threat of Dark Eldar.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Care to give an example of a list(from the new codex) that would fear only a handful of builds?

Haemonculi w/Liquifier Gun, Venom Blade, and Vexator Mask 75
Haemonculi w/Liquifier Gun and Vexator Mask 70

5xTruborn
3xBlasters, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
170 Points

5xTruborn
3xBlasters, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
170 Points

5xTruborn
2xBlasters, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
155 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

5xWarriors
Blaster, Sybrarite w/Blast Pistol, Venom with Additional Splinter Cannon
150 Points

9xWracks
Liquifier Gun, Acothyst w/Agonizer, Raider w/Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies, and Dark Lance
205 Points

9xWracks
Liquifier Gun, Acothyst w/Agonizer, Raider w/Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies, and Dark Lance
205 Points

Ravager w/Flickerfield 115

Ravager w/Flickerfield 115

Ravager w/Flickerfield 115

2000 Points

Turn 1, Move up Venoms, Darklances target key anti-tank units.
Turn 2, Remaining tanks get Blastered and disembarked units get Dakkaed away by the Venoms
Turn 3, Wracks clean up the mess

The only real list that gives this trouble is the razorback spam since they carry a lot of heavy weapons and MEQs are not really easy to Dakka-away.

I would also just like to say that I don't believe the (much over-used term) Leafblower army is the biggest threat to Dark Eldar, for one thing, they most certainly have the manouevability to counter it, secondly the Leadblower army in its original and core use, relies on getting the 1st turn.
I'd argue the likes of shooty-wolves to be the biggest threat due to the ability to field lots of heavy weapons (Long Fangs, Razorbacks etc.) and still counter-assault.

I would also suggest that the OP puts forth his reasoning behind the Dark Eldar Codex apparently being weak, so rather than him simply rebuffing everyone elses opinion, we can see his reasoning behind it.
Finally, the Battle Reports forum shows many Dark Eldar armies succeeding, with or without strong builds.

DAR, with all due respect, I think your'e forgetting one thing... Mathhammer (which I do utilize to a degree) cannot possibly take all factors into effect. Terrain, cover, first turn; all these factors (and more) factor into how an army plays.

I believe that DE will be competetive. I believe they will be able to stand up to MEQ, if properly built.

Nope. I admit having never played a single game as DE. Not even with the previous codex. My beliefs are based on what I can read about them and what I know about the game.
It's about more than simple theory and/or math hammer.

I'm hoping everyone who's getting "personal" in here can cut out on the personal attacks. It's immature and unnecessary. Debate the points. Don't insult each other.

Eric

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Its math, and in a game of dice and statistics, math is relatively useful... Jus' sayin'.

And I'm just saying that, in a 3D game played on a board full of terrain, with dice numbers *well* below anything that can even approach an approximation to a bell curve for your maths to hold any statistical merit at all - math is a lot less useful than you think.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:No, math (and fact) is the only thing that seems "convinced" that when compared side-by-side to its peers in the meta, this dex offers less viable weaponry. You can tell how sharp a sword is without wielding it, ya know...

You have yet to provide any facts. You have a theory, but no facts. Pointed this out to you a number of times, but dont let a lack of objective reason stop you!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Congrats, either you played bad players, rolled better then average, or you have this 'magic' list that I 'clearly can't see'. Would it really be so hard to simply display said list?

Given your closed mind, yes. Because trying to argue in this thread is similar to hitting your head against a wall - hard to make an impression.

ANd I really didnt play bad players. Lol. You're funny at times with your bias showing through in every post.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:It's not "doing my work for me", its backing your claim. If you are going to say "My horse is just as fast as anyone else horse, but I don't want to let you see it run cause that would be doing your work for you" your just wasting mine, and everyone else in this thread's, time.

Where are your facts that you keep lauding? Every point you have made in this thread has been debunked.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:No, what my "sweeping bold statement" is that "Dark eldar are not as strong as BA/SW" which people seem to counter with "Well they can beat IG/Nids, and they are good if you know how to use them" which really holds no real relevance... its not too early to tell how they don't stack up mathematically, its not my problem that 'someone with a blog' hasn't run the numbers yet...

And they run rings around SW, turning their expensive toys to bits with all the poison in the world. Missile spam? Gone / heavily reduced in a turn, 3 free pain tokens without too much effort. ASsault cannon spam? Even fast razorbacks find their firelines blocked.

Again: you have NO real world experience, just your own thoughts. Which appear to be heavily biased, as evidenced multiple times in this thread.

If you cant see the good in this dex, which has been pointed out to you a number of times already in this thread, perhaps you should just run BA/SW and wait for DE players to beat face on you.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Semi-competitive =/= Competitive.

Reading is tech. The poster was talking about the previous codex.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:And again, its not opinion, its fact (at this point) as no evidence has been provided to the contrary...

Wrong. It is your theory that they are not competitive, whihch you ahve yet to back up with any facts or even actual playing experience. Dont confuse the two.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:My Opinion is that "The Dark Eldar look to be a very fun army that will lead you to victory against most opponents (especially locally) I see myself enjoying them greatly. However, as far as I have seen, the evidence and the math(fact) supports that they are not as competitive in the meta as I would have hoped to seeing as how the writer of the most competitive codexes, also wrote this book. Buyer beware, if you are a WAAC tourny player hoping to score big on the competitive circuit, but don't like the way BA/SW look (AKA Power armor) these guys are not at the level rumor speculated them to be at."

Is that better?

In so much as it is an incorrect opinion, yes it is better.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

it is an incorrect opinion

You have just invalidated every post you have ever made ever...

<<Edit>>

As for the math, I'll try to have something posted up by thursday or friday, I have all the hand-written notes, it may just take a little while to format them into an easy-to-read web document. (If anyone has any suggestions, such as google docs etc. that would be awesome!)

~DAR

No, I really havent. I just dont ascribe to the opinion that all opinions are correct. Your low opinion of the competitiveness of the codex certainly isnt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note: you ignored the part about the maths really not helping in this situation? Your model is too simplistic.

No, I really havent. I just dont ascribe to the opinion that all opinions are correct. Your low opinion of the competitiveness of the codex certainly isnt.

Incorrect opinion is not a great term, but bad opinion is certainly applicable here.

How anyone can already make such a harsh judgment one way or another is beyond me. Especially experienced posters who have been through multiple codex releases. This always happens. People who aren't playing them cry cheese, people who used to play them might cry nerf. The reality is yet to be seen.

I find it hard to believe they will be worse than before. The old dex was able to place and win tournies with a mono build and far less viable options. The new dex has a ton of goodies and nice looking units.

Competitive HQ-check
Competitive Troop choices (the biggest thing)- triple check
Competitive Heavy Support- check
Competitive transports- check (despite a cost increase)

These are the staples to a competitive codex. Dark Eldar has them all.

Perhaps "ill informed, biased, not based in real world" would also be appropriate additions as well.

Applying an overly simplistic model to a complex situation is an invalid way to "prove" a theory. Experiemental evidence, i.e. actually playing the damn game, is a far better method.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

it is an incorrect opinion

You have just invalidated every post you have ever made ever...

<<Edit>>

As for the math, I'll try to have something posted up by thursday or friday, I have all the hand-written notes, it may just take a little while to format them into an easy-to-read web document. (If anyone has any suggestions, such as google docs etc. that would be awesome!)

~DAR

Instead of doing math formulas how about playing a game with them? I'm not saying math theories are bad, but only providing the theory is not good enough. I would try three different builds from the codex and play at least 5-10 games against each of the top lists (IG,SW,BA) and compare them. I'm in the boat that DE are competitive but if you can only just lash out on the other posters providing a theory but no evidence or actual play testing than you really can't say much, but the same can be said for the people in the DE are competitive side.

So everyone instead of arguing over whether or not DE are or are not competitive go out and play some games!

I know nosferatu1001's been playing though it seems Daemon-Archon Ren is relying more solely on the math-hammer.

From watching others play, I'd say the distinction is when DE players play poorly going straight on with little or no strategy it is a D-AR says, but the players I've seen play well with strategy, it goes as Nos says.

DE have the tools to implement strategy and when they do they can defy the face value of their stats.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:DAR - and your entire posts in this thread translates to: I dont see an utter obvious list, and my "numbers" (not actual playtime, theoryhammer. Such a useful tool to condemn a codex as "not competitive") suggest IG would beat it.

Its math, and in a game of dice and statistics, math is relatively useful... Jus' sayin'.

I'm engineer and I love math but math can only go so far. Math-hammer tends only calculates face to face fighting and while that may present something useful it shouldn't be the end of the analysis. Fragile armies like DE rely on more than just stats. They rely so disproporionately on those non stat things relative to less fragile armies that you can't account for that aspect of them with statistics based solely on stats. It isn't just a matter that they need terrain, that they need the ability to safely move out of firing lanes, its that they have the ability to actually do those things quite well. The finesse of DE is about never giving your ability the opportunity to play on their term, by taking advantage of the volume of unconventional attacks that can be unpredictable.

Essentiallly simplistic math hammer doesnt work on edge or extreme cases - it doesnt even get close.

It also doesnt take into account the sheer speed of the army. Yes, yes, 72" guns. Yes, yes 48" width tables and potentially starting 18 inches apart.

Applying an overly simple model to a complex situation = not a proof of anything, not a fact, not even close.

Nos, I think for the sake of fairness it does represent proof of something: the worst case scenario, but there in lies the flaw. All analysis starts with assumptions but the assumptions of math-hammer are inherently stacked against DE and thus only show the worst case scenario.

Fair enough - it proves what happens if you start 72" apart on planet bowling ball, with the DE not using their speed / DS / reserves / et al, and allow guard / SW infinite room to shoot without providing cover or blocking each other.

It proves the simplistic edge case, and has little to do with real life.

Unless it was Great Devourer tourney 2 years ago, when most tables WERE planet bowling ball....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Fair enough - it proves what happens if you start 72" apart on planet bowling ball, with the DE not using their speed / DS / reserves / et al, and allow guard / SW infinite room to shoot without providing cover or blocking each other.

No, it doesn't...

This is how I use Math hammer to determine worth.

(THIS IS A VERY BASIC EXAMPLE TO MERELY SHOW HOW THE BASIC FUNCTION OF HOW I USE "MATHHAMMER" TO DETERMINE WORTH! I WILL PROVIDE A MUCH MORE INDEPTH ANALYSIS IN MY LATER POST)
Lets say you have Grey Hunter

Grey hunter costs 15 points
Grey Hunter has the a stat-line of 4/4/4/4/1/4/1/8/3+ (Total of 20)
Grey hunter comes with
24" str 4 Ap 5 RF (+1 for range weapon)
12" str 4 ap 5 Pistol (+1 for Pistol/ccw)
CCW
Frag/Crack nades (+1 for coming with grenades)
Counter attack (+1 for the bonus attack)
ATSKNF (+1 for LD Special rules)
AS (+0.25 for situational special rule)

Total of 25.25 for 15 points (Before special weapons/upgrades) (E-Score of 1.683~)

Wyches costs 10 points each
stat line 4/4/3/3/1/6/1/8/6+ (Total of 14 not counting save, see "dodge"
CCW
Splinter pistol (+ 1 for pistol/ccw)
Combat drugs (+0.9 from Combat drugs ((this becomes a 1 if Duke is present))
Plasma (+1 for grenades)
Fleet (+1 for movement)
NV (+.25 for situational special rule)
PfP (+ 1.75 for PfP ((this already includes the potential for sticking a haemonculi with them, or having them at 2+ tokens on turn 1))
Dodge 4+ (Average with the armor save gives 1.6 pts)

Total 21.5/10 points each (before special weapons/upgrades) (E-Score of 2.15)

With math here, at face value, you will notice that it would appear that the wyches are more efficient then the Grey hunters, and in all honesty, if you just 10 Grey hunters against 15 wyches, they wyches would probably(literally) stomp their face.

The thing is, when you apply this same math, to the entire dex, and make a list (at least, how I have made them) you don't come near the efficiency scores of the current meta (I think the closest I got was about ~100 away from one of the less successful BA lists from the 'Ard Boyz reports). Thus me asking for lists that I might be missing, that would provide a better score then what I am coming up with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

aka_mythos wrote:Nos, I think for the sake of fairness it does represent proof of something: the worst case scenario, but there in lies the flaw. All analysis starts with assumptions but the assumptions of math-hammer are inherently stacked against DE and thus only show the worst case scenario.

~most likely appended~

Just wanted to include that math(or the E-Score system I'm using) takes into consideration both best and worse case scenario, and averages them out... if you are referring to deployment/board then that falls under the "assumed" standard which would be both players setting up tactically sound deployments on a board with 25% cover (the recommended)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

aka_mythos wrote:Nos, I think for the sake of fairness it does represent proof of something: the worst case scenario, but there in lies the flaw. All analysis starts with assumptions but the assumptions of math-hammer are inherently stacked against DE and thus only show the worst case scenario.

~most likely appended~

Just wanted to include that math(or the E-Score system I'm using) takes into consideration both best and worse case scenario, and averages them out... if you are referring to deployment/board then that falls under the "assumed" standard which would be both players setting up tactically sound deployments on a board with 25% cover (the recommended)

When I say worst case scenario I'm not talking about a statistical worst case scenario. I'm talking about one where a DE player is stupid enough to give his opponents as much opportunities as a head to head unit to unit match up would entail, ie charging across open table top. Playing DE well is all about mitigating the opportunity to be fired on until you're ready to strike; its all about wearing down an enemy unit until you can sufficiently over power them in the assault. That a good DE player will never get in a situation where a full squad wyches assaults a full unit of "X" or making sure when "X" assaults they're assaulting units that are least fragile and most adept at dealing with "X." Those are the end result of an army with as much fire power and speed, but no longevity.

On a different topic, I think one of the generally useless things is the fact that Warrirors can have 20 models . In all but the situation where they are coming through webway portals or riding venoms, they will only ever be fielded in units of 10. The near necessity of Raiders due to footslogging DE being suicidal places an effective cap at 10. Anyone else think so?

DAR - all that proves is you have an overly simplistic model.

It doesnt take into account force concentrations. It doesnt take into account speed (actual speed, not "+1" scores) on the real, actual battlefield. It doesnt take into account firelanes, and how to control them.

In short: it is overly simplistic, and doesnt accurately represent the strengths of the codex.

It simply proves your "facts" are nothing but ill-founded opinions, backed up with dodgy mathematical models.

The problem with mathhammer, theoryhammer, and posting lists for dissection is that they assume vacuums that ignore player skill, opponent skill, mission type, synergy with other units, total list construction, strategy and tactics. They are, generally, worthless, except as a predictor of success in very limited scenarios. This is why is it is useless to try to debate the relative worth of units or lists because they can be endlessly dissected or thrown into pointlessly obscure scenarios to either support or denounce the point you are trying to make. It's a waste of time to debate those points, so I don't. It's no skin off my nose if people don't play the DE, I only suggest to folks to actually playtest them and figure it out for themselves, unlike the rampant "analysis" attempted here. As stated before, and in the codex itself, it's not for everyone. See for yourself. Playtesting is the only way to know, theoryhammer is a waste of time.

Which was the point I was trying to make.

Understanding how to play the list, and how to beat other armies, is more important than any attempt at applying an overly simplistic model.

a mdoel that fails the further from the median you get, as well. For example DE are more reliant on cover than marines.

Oh wow... So when you you say mathhammer you mean that you give some superficial values to stats and gear that each unit has on the paper (those values seem to be based solely on your personal opinion) and then you compare those values to their point costs.

Everyone else uses math to just check what they can expect from units in different situations that are simple enough to be modeled. For example check how Unit X does against Unit Y when it gets charge.

You say that Grey Hunter are better than Wyches because you gave them more points in your own system. That is just great. Your model shows nothing, it proves nothing and it has no basis. You have no proof that the point values you give to stats are actually representing anything.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

it is an incorrect opinion

You have just invalidated every post you have ever made ever...

Are you implying that it's not possible to have an incorrect opinion DAR? Because it is, when it's baised on false premise or incorrect data. A better term might be a 'faulty' opinion, but that doesn't change that opinions will be judged against and need to meet certain standards.

As I said: an opinion based on bad data (that model is bad, as the edge case armies which rely more heavily on factors the model doesnt, well, model, are not accurately represented) is a bad opinion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As I said: an opinion based on bad data (that model is bad, as the edge case armies which rely more heavily on factors the model doesnt, well, model, are not accurately represented) is a bad opinion.

Well, you are entitiled to you own opinion on the definition of the word opinion (and on the model). But its still just an opinion

Aetherse wrote:Oh wow... So when you you say mathhammer you mean that you give some superficial values to stats and gear that each unit has on the paper (those values seem to be based solely on your personal opinion) and then you compare those values to their point costs.

No, not "superficial values to states and gear based solely on my personal opinion" but a highly complex formula of charateristics derived from the statistics gathered from "Mathhammer".

Aetherse wrote:
Everyone else uses math to just check what they can expect from units in different situations that are simple enough to be modeled. For example check how Unit X does against Unit Y when it gets charge.

If I were simply basing my statement on such a simple (and situational) condition as the above, I would 100% agree with the statement of "This is not enought grounds to properly dismiss an army". I'm not doing that... which is why I will be listing up the full set of statistics to explain wherein my statement is derived from. And oh, BTW, I have played with my new DE already, I have gotten a few games in on VASSAL and I have the following record:

In 1500 Points: 3/0
I took: Wych list, with Duke/Haemonculi
Against: Mech-Orks(Some VERY lucky DL shots), Stealer nids(no surprise here), and Mech-Dar (with 1 walker squadron and a nightspinner as HS)

In 1850 0/1/0
Wrack List(no liqui's 5man hex+ Venom with SCx2) with urien against Lash CSM. We both ran out of troops by around turn 4, and neither had a moral victory.

In 2K 1/1/0
Baron/3xHaemonculi (one ancient) 2 Hellion troops 2 wrack troops, Grot, Incubi, Trueborn. Raider heavy. (both games)
Tied an MSU-SW player (thanks to last turn contesting skimmers, he won the moral victory)
Beat a DE Archon list (tried to gunline with warriors, stupidly, took vect((and his boat, god knows why...)) to sieze even tho I gave him turn one with baron's ability ((and got a 5 to sieze :sadface: )) and he took Cronos engines instead of Ravagers... so I don't really want to count this as a win) Annihilated (he almost beat me in kill points however, had he killed 3 more of my units, and had one thing survive, I would have lost to KPs...)

While they did well against the matchups they had, I almost lost a game that should have been an easy win. I think my Vassal is borked cause I was rolling high when I needed to , and low when I didn't, it was a really bad day for all the 1500 lists I went against. I enjoyed playing them, but I also am not willing to forsake the stastical averages already derived from the codexes, especially until I get a few games against more "higher tier" (In reference to the current metagame) lists... infact if any outstanding players would like to help me by playing one of the stronger BA/SW lists against my 2k list, that would be awesome! (I'm guessing I'll have around a 35% win chance/rate)

Aetherse wrote:
You say that Grey Hunter are better than Wyches because you gave them more points in your own system. That is just great. Your model shows nothing, it proves nothing and it has no basis. You have no proof that the point values you give to stats are actually representing anything.

Re-read the example... it shows wyches as the superior unit ((given the stats provided))

ChrisCP wrote:
Are you implying that it's not possible to have an incorrect opinion DAR? Because it is, when it's baised on false premise or incorrect data. A better term might be a 'faulty' opinion, but that doesn't change that opinions will be judged against and need to meet certain standards.

If what you are implying is that this post is fact, you are actually incorrect... however if that is your opinion on other peoples opinions... well then, as stated before, you are entitled to it. If you are infact claiming that the idea is based off of false pretenses, or erroneous views, then you must realise the irony in making such a statement without actually plasing true ideas or correct views, in this instance: The concept of "Dark eldar are good if you know how to play them" is what is being presented as the "correct view" in counter to the statement that "The Dark Eldar codex written by Phil Kelly, is not as strong or competitive (based on a raiting system derived by statistical averages and calulations which take into consideration a hell of alot more conditions then 'if you know how to play them' or 'they work like they used to, i.e. glass cannon') to the other 5th edition codexes written by Phil Kelly" which is why I am reluctant to consider the other argument without more supporting evidence...

Remember, when talking Meta, you HAVE to ZERO OUT player skill (to plan for the chance that your opponent may be mud-brick slowed in an endgame tourny game would be foolish). If not, then things like that tau player using kroot to block his opponents lines would totally screw up the meta, and make anysort of "tier structuring" impossible...

I don't know... Four wins, two ties and no losses... Regardless of your thinking on the games, that's a decet record for your first 6 games!

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:I don't know... Four wins, two ties and no losses... Regardless of your thinking on the games, that's a decet record for your first 6 games!

Eric

I agree with this, 100%. As I said, they will be likely to win against opponents who are unfamilier with what they can bring to the table, and they have alot of gimmiky stuff.

But again, if skill, game/army knowledge, and Dice rolls are null (both players the same/statistical average) I don't see a situation* where the DE can come up on top (against other meta lists).

Compare that to BA vs DE. The BA should statistically come out on top (as the averages deal more damage per point from the BA side then the DE side). Solely on this, which seems to be the only way to compare armies in a "fair fight" situation, is where my claims from my FIRST IMPRESSIONS with the dark eldar comes from (see "Thread Topic" for more details...)

~~EDIT FOR CLARITY~~

*I have yet to see a list where DE can come out on top (if anyone would like to provide one, I would be most grateful).

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Solely on this, which seems to be the only way to compare armies in a "fair fight" situation, is where my claims from my FIRST IMPRESSIONS with the dark eldar comes from (see "Thread Topic" for more details...)

To parapharase the guys who wrote the Dark Eldar "they cheat and that is reflected in play style." Not to say you cheat, but that they shouldn't be going straight on towards their enemy.

I also have to ask what BA list and what DE list are you using for your math-hammering?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Remember, when talking Meta, you HAVE to ZERO OUT player skill (to plan for the chance that your opponent may be mud-brick slowed in an endgame tourny game would be foolish). If not, then things like that tau player using kroot to block his opponents lines would totally screw up the meta, and make anysort of "tier structuring" impossible...

Once you eliminate player skill, you are zeroing out critical aspects of how armies move and engage, and you ignore situational advantages that a particular army his apt to take advantage of. For example, with all the fast options the DE have they will easily contest objectives. You ignore that a faster army can reposition itself more effectively to place its attacks where they need to go. You ignore that a more maneuverable army will avoid wounds and penetrations, by staying out of firing lanes. What you call meta, is really just a measure of brute force and its application. That isn't DE, thats why your sort of analysis is lacking.

Also I just want to pound home, footslogging and battle line lists don't belong with Dark Eldar. If anyone has plans to plays those lists they might as well start putting the models away before they even start. Vect and the Dias, are too pricey; neither are worth the points to field them.

aka_mythos wrote:To parapharase the guys who wrote the Dark Eldar "they cheat and that is reflected in play style." Not to say you cheat, but that they shouldn't be going straight on towards their enemy.

and by all means, they don't!

but unless you are saying that you have seen a game/plan out your lists based on the ability to stay outside of range/los the entire battle, pass every cover/flicker save imaginable, hit(and wound) will all of your melee attacks in CC without recieving a single blow (4+ to hit 5+(4+ with 2 pain tokens, 3+ with two pain tokens and grave lotus) to wound against marines, who get a 3+ armor save in CC against the ever amazing "wyches" whom the marines need a 4+ to hit, a 3+ to wound (2+ with PF) against a 4+ saved (with 4+ fnp if they have 1 token) I think it fair to say i'm favoring the wyches in this scenario, and they won't do as well as people are claiming them to do...) then you must also see where I am coming from. But believe me, if the previous were infact the case every time, I totally see how DE are competitive :sarcastic face:

aka_mythos wrote:
I also have to ask what BA list and what DE list are you using for your math-hammering?

HQ: Mephiston
HQ: Librarian with Shield of Sanguinius, Fear of the Darkness

Troop1: 5 man assault squad (in rhino); melta gun, infernus pistol, power weapon
Troop2: 5 man assault squad (in rhino); melta gun, infernus pistol, power weapon
Troop3: 5 man assault squad (in rhino); melta gun, infernus pistol, power weapon
Troop4: 5 man assault squad (in rhino); melta gun, infernus pistol, power weapon

Elite1: Honor Guard (in rhino); 2x meltaguns, 2x flamers
Elite2: Honor Guard (in rhino); 2x meltaguns, 2x flamers

Fast1: Baal Predator
Fast2: Baal Predator

Heavy1: Predator with Lascannon Sponsons, Autocannon Turret
Heavy2: Predator with Lascannon Sponsons, Autocannon Turret
Heavy3: Predator with Lascannon Sponsons, Autocannon Turret

(kudos for whomever gets where this list came from)

VS

The lists I've currently made (not specifically made to counter this list, but differnt "versitle DE lists")

AGAIN I AM NOT DENYING THE FACT THAT THERE MAY BE A LIST THAT I AM FAILING TO CONCEPTUALIZE WITH THIS CODEX THAT WOULD YEILD DIFFERENT RESULTS THEN WHAT I HAVE SEEN!

I'm saying "Based on WHAT I HAVE MADE, they can't be as competitive as other "all comer" lists"

IF YOU KNOW OF AN ALTERNATIVE THAT CAN FACE THE OTHER ALLCOMER LISTS IN THE META PLEASE POST IT HERE (or a link to the thread about it in the "army lists forum")

Failure to do so, is not a failure on my part, but an unbacked statement on those opposed's parts.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

aka_mythos wrote:Also I just want to pound home, footslogging and battle line lists don't belong with Dark Eldar. If anyone has plans to plays those lists they might as well start putting the models away before they even start. Vect and the Dias, are too pricey; neither are worth the points to field them.

This is why I said that my victory over the DE player was less to do with MY list as opposed to HIS failed list...

So no actual evidence still. Great.

The flaws in your model have been pointed out, yet you still cling to the "evidence" you gain from them.

Additionally can yous top with the all caps sentences? Grating on the eyes.

nosferatu1001 wrote: please please please Daemon-Archon Ren, will you put me on your ignore list

Fixt, and happily my good chum!

Another major problem with applying math to this game is the fact, which has been said by the designers, that stats, points etc. are all subjectively given based on how they 'feel' about giving them to units.

Sorry DAR, I can only assume (personal insult incoming) that stands for Dumb Ass slow. After 5 pages, I think that's deserved...

Rymafyr wrote:Sorry DAR, I can only assume (personal insult incoming) that stands for Dumb Ass slow. After 5 pages, I think that's deserved...

If you read my forum name, it makes a bit more sense(what DAR stands for anywho)... also, if you know any "dumb ass retards" that can formulate statitical calculations at the level I am doing them, kudos for you!

Personal "insult" averted.

~Edit~

I'd also like to think myself at least better then to be insulted by someone from a "Tea-Party State" lol...

DAR - so when people point out the flaws in the statistical model you're using, and how it directly impacts this situation, your solution is to ignore them?

Hilarious. Net equivalent of fingers in ears going "na na, cant hear you, I'm riiiight!"

Seems to me there are two types of 40k players - those that can do maths, and those that can't ;-)

And never the twain shall meet....

As someone who "does the maths" I'd say my experience is that:

- crunching the numbers very quickly indicates the very goood and very poor units individually.

- what you are left with is a lump in the middle that typically are situation dependent.

- it is far harder to see the interplay of different complementary units (or how 2 good units don't interwork)

But by and large the math-hammer player is going to opimise first on the great units, and then try and add situational dependent ones based on - well, the situation.

That is no doubt going to give them a better than average army build than another player until a *lot* of games have gone under their belt.

However, even the best math-hammer could still suck at tactical play on the field, neutralising all their benefits

This thread is disappointing.