Sorry if this has been talked about before, I don't come on the forums often. But I just tried searching for a similar topic and I couldn't really find anything. Anyways here are my thoughts. I have a tldr at the bottom for those of you that don't want to waste your time with my rant.

I feel like the CSM Codex is outdated. Why? Pretty much all the independent characters have no real purpose other than to fulfill fluff. Daemon Prince is almost always a better choice than an independent character. I would have liked to see the independent characters affecting the army as whole like changing play style and such like the space marines have.

Possessed and spawn are useless. Fast attack well.. what chaos player actually runs fast attack competitively? Chosen CSM... an infiltrating squad that cannot hold a point? That's pretty much only ever used to summon a greater daemon? Alright alright we could put a whack of them in a rhino and load them up with a bunch of meltas or plasmaguns etc okay I'll give em that. Lesser and greater daemons are not god specific? Just generic daemons? Lame.

Heavy support? OBLITORATORZZ LOLZ HAHAHA WTFOMGOMGOMGLULZZZ111. Why would you even consider playing defilers, predators, vindicators, or land raiders when oblitorators are so 1337? Defilers because they are fluffy? Predators because you bought one before you knew how good obliterators are? vindicators? I've never seen a chaos vindicator in my life. Maybe it has its uses but oblitorators are still numbro uno. Land Raider? Nobody wants to run a land raider because everyone is complaining about how csm land raider sucks compared to the sm land raider.

I'm not saying the codex sucks. What I'm saying is its unbalanced. There are some really great units in the codex and there are some really terrible units, and then there are mediocre units. The problem is that the really great units (ie. daemon princes and oblitoratorz) over shadow the rest of the codex's choices. The main thing I'll complain about is all the cool independent characters that are pretty much useless. Okay some are usable like Kharn for instance but don't even get me started on Typhus.

The codex did well with the cult troops in that you can have a sense of dedication or a specific god. But for those that want to run a slaanesh list or nurgle list, typhus and lucious are lolnoobs when compared to the daemon prince choices. Oh and I forgot about terminators. Great when used as a 3 man termicide squad for 105 pts. But if you want to dedicate them to a specific god, then you need to run a ten man squad to make the icon price worth it. And even then, that is a very expensive squad that is not fearless. Nobody really runs 10 man terminator squads, it's just not practical. What are you going to do? Deep strike them? That's like a 300+ price squad that comes in approximately turn 3-4 on average. And on the turn it comes in it can't move. So if they come in on turn three, they aren't assaulting anything until at least turn 4. These squads are only viable in massive games because in smaller games they just take up too much of your army pts and puts it off the table leaving your three rhinos to get pwned.

And Typhus. The coolest looking independent character of all time. Lord of Nurgle. Nurgle who is the god of decay. His followers are known for being particularly resilient. Now check this out. Typhus' toughness is 4(5). Yep he gets instagibbed by powerfists. wow. And to make matters worse that's over 200 points for a model that gets instakilled and provides no bonuses to your army. LORD OF NURGLE HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE RESILIENT. A regular plague marine has toughness 4(5). A space marine with icon of nurgle has toughness 4(5). EVERYBODY AND THEIR MOTHER'S DOG HAS TOUGHNESS 4(5)!!!!! he needs eternal warrior or higher toughness. period.


TLDR

Do you think the csm codex is outdated? Unbalanced? I think it does not allow for much variety. I play chaos what should I buy. Daemon Princes and Obliteratorz durr. Oh you like slaanesh? Cool you could get lucious the eternal he's an independent character dedicated to slaanesh. Oh I forgot Daemon Princes are better. durr. What do you think of the csm codex?

Anyone know if they are going to make a new codex for csm? And if so when?

Of course it is; it's only in its 4th edition if I'm not mistaken.

There are still 3 3rd edition Codices that need an update (Necrons, DH, WH), another 3rd edition one just got its update (Darl Eldar). So join the queue.

The CSM codex is tied with Orks as far as being a competitive non-fifth edition codex in fifth edition.

IE, it's at the top, not the bottom.

Kroothawk wrote:There are still 3 3rd edition Codices that need an update (Necrons, DH, WH), another 3rd edition one just got its update (Darl Eldar). So join the queue.

Melissia wrote:The CSM codex is tied with Orks as far as being a competitive non-fifth edition codex in fifth edition.

IE, it's at the top, not the bottom.

These to posts are correct.

Yes, it is outdated and not the best Codex, however it's not uncompetitive or as bad as all the Chaos fan-boys make it out to be.

Heavily themed armies can still be at least semi-competitive and many of the choices aren't as bad as you make them out to be. Yes Daemon Princes and Obliterators dominated their respective FoC, but they aren't the 'be all and end all' and anyone with at least a semblance of imagination should be willing to consider the other choices.

I have beef with the fact that the chosen of the chaos gods, ie the independent characters in the book, don't have eternal warrior...

Beyond that the CSM book is doing quite well.

I regularly run Chaos Vindicators, as Obliterators are too goddamn fiddly to put together and I can't be arsed to convert them. Besides, Vindicators are badass. Strength 10 AP 2 ordnance weapon? I think so!

I dissagree to all this fluff about CSM codex been outdated, because I use everything in the codex very well.

Lesser/Greater Deamons I use well with a Bezerker unit but my only bad thought is Lesser Demons are basicly CSM's without bolters.

Obliterators are the bomb, to bad they only come 1-3 per unit.

Vindicators are awesome but to be effective you need 2 in your force as 1 becomes dead in turn 1 or 2.

I never use the charicters in the codex, they are usless, so I take a Chaos Lord and put him in Termi armor and give a Deamon Weapon (Bloodfeeder).

Only Gods I care to use are Khorne and Nurgle, because of the close combat effectiveness and toughness.

Chossen are good for infiltrating if armed right and have the right support such as Obliterators or a Termi unit.

Predators rock as a Med Tank and can have plenty of hvy weapon support.

Regular Demon unit choices I like are Bloodletters and Nurglings and even Furies.

Chaos used to be the best army choice for its close combat capabilities, I normally tear apart most armies unless my opponent runs an all plasma Space Wolf gun line.

I love running full 10-man Termi squads, I deep strike them to distract my opponents forces long enough to gain my primary objective. Then blast and overwelm my opponent with my Bezerker squad, a basic hack and slash manuever that I love.

I hate the Insanity rule on Chaos Dreadnoughts there usless unless put up front were they die on turn 1 or 2.

Landraiders are awesome and I am saving up to get one soon but must finish my Fallen Guard first, My Catchian Blob unit comes first.

I love the Brass Scorpion/Defiler a very nice vehicle.

Only thing I really want are legal Chaos Supper Heavies like Cannon of Khorne, Tower of Skulls Culdron of Blood and the like vehicles to be in the new Codex. Otherwise I will dump my Chaos Marines for Fallen Guard fully.

The copyright date for Codex: ChaosSM is 2007, so I think this is less about being 'out-of-date' and more about perceived codex 'wane'.

Here is the codexes' publishing history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_(Warhammer_40,000)

Perceived is right.

Melissia wrote:Perceived is right.

I was wondering if I shoulda used italics on that word.

They don't seem to need a new codex right now, but need a new unit cultist anyone .

There is potential for an update, but the codex is not really showing it's age.

Pretty much what folks have said here. The CSM Codex remains one of the better books today. Lots of good to excellent unit choices in there, some of them though are just head and shoulders above the rest; Obliterators, Daemon Princes, Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines for a few examples.

On some of the choices that are considered dodgier, well that's life. I know that Possessed, for all the folks that seem to dislike them, seem to show up a lot at the tournaments I go to. I'll admit that their mechanic is a little mismatched with the army (give an Ork player a random table like the Possessed one and they'll love it, a Marine player, not so much), but they're still a good close combat unit and one that people seem to enjoy painting and converting. I know they tend to be some of the more interesting models on the table.

My main issue with the current CSM codex though is the Fast Attack section. There's just not much there. Raptors seem to get mixed reviews (I know I painted up some Nurgle Raptors for my buddy and while they look good, they just don't seem to work out terribly well on the table top). Bikes, I find that I just don't see, though that is probably due at least in part to the price of the models and Spawn, well, I'll field a unit or two if I'm borrowing Chaos models, but most folks won't.

Bikers have alot of potentials depending on what you give them, since all of the marks seem to compliment what the bikes do. You're right on the cost issue, that's the main reason why I dont field bikes. They also compete for points against the other stuff you see. FA choices are usually passed up in favour of more elites and heavy support. The baseline Possessed is still very powerful for what you pay for. Give them a mark and watch the havoc they can cause.

Most of the complaints are from mono-god purists, who play armies that are based around one cult trooper and one type of mark. Slaanesh DPs might be awesome at lashing people about, but Noise Marines certainly are not good as bread and butter troops (more like elites). They cant compare with a normal CSM squad given a MoS, who are basically the same statwise, but cost much less. The lists for mono-gods are also much less fluffy than they use to be. Gone are the days of Rubric Terminators (at least outside of Apocalypse) and Doom Siren Dreadnoughts, which I do find myself missing.

I agree with you in many points, such as the chosen ones, the characters (I wanted a IW character! *sad*) and Typhus (WHY the heck is he so noooooob?!). However, I dissapoint in other points:

1.- Yep, obliterators are *insert mega-sentence-with-no-meaning-but-thisisawesome here*, but I like the other heavy support choices! Defilers are really useful when bombarding the enemy or crushing it in CC, and having such a vehicle (wich has an awesome looking too) for 150 points is really good. And the other vehicles are useful too: in fact, I want a vindicator or a land raider for my IW (I'll have obliterators, of course, and a defiler). Vindicator cannon has S 10, it's heavy artillery and uses the big area, and the land raider is a very resistent vehicle. Moreover, vehicles are always useful

2.- About spawns: they are made for distraction. For you, it doesn't matter if they die or not. But for the enemy, they're a constant pain: kill them or kill the others? Because if he/she lets them come, they would attack his/her units, and remember that they're wild beasts fith S 5, R 5 and W3. So, adding a few of them will allow you to protect your most important units: I have 2 of them.

About the other, yes, you're right, specially on the demons part: oh-noes!

Hope this helps! ^^

PS: obliterators NEED new models! They look as if they were wearing flesh like necron flayed ones (instead of having daemonic substance melting their flesh, armor and weapons), and their faces are stupid! Me, I'll convert my ones ^^

It's still a very competitive codex. Sure, it can be a little bland/cookie cutter, but so is C:SM if you're not taking biker armies or all drop pods.

It sure has more units in more roles than my crazy space knight Black Templars.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most of the complaints are from mono-god purists, who play armies that are based around one cult trooper and one type of mark. Slaanesh DPs might be awesome at lashing people about, but Noise Marines certainly are not good as bread and butter troops (more like elites). They cant compare with a normal CSM squad given a MoS, who are basically the same statwise, but cost much less. The lists for mono-gods are also much less fluffy than they use to be. Gone are the days of Rubric Terminators (at least outside of Apocalypse) and Doom Siren Dreadnoughts, which I do find myself missing.

To a degree this is the main thing for most folks who can't stand the current CSM book. However I do not think for many of us its even about the power lvl, I'd (and I'm quite sure I'm not alone) happily sit at the bottom of the pile competive wise if we had the choices back. We went pretty much went from possibly the most fun, fluffy and interesting Codexes in the game to select our armies from, to one of the worst.

It was like giving us a big box of Legos for a few years, and then taking them all away apart from a couple of blocks and a quick thumbs up to reasure us that all was fine.

I haven't seen many who have played the previous codex for any decent period of time say they love the new book and prefer it to the 3rd ed one.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most of the complaints are from mono-god purists, who play armies that are based around one cult trooper and one type of mark. Slaanesh DPs might be awesome at lashing people about, but Noise Marines certainly are not good as bread and butter troops (more like elites). They cant compare with a normal CSM squad given a MoS, who are basically the same statwise, but cost much less. The lists for mono-gods are also much less fluffy than they use to be. Gone are the days of Rubric Terminators (at least outside of Apocalypse) and Doom Siren Dreadnoughts, which I do find myself missing.

To a degree this is the main thing for most folks who can't stand the current CSM book. However I do not think for many of us its even about the power lvl, I'd (and I'm quite sure I'm not alone) happily sit at the bottom of the pile competive wise if we had the choices back. We went pretty much went from possibly the most fun, fluffy and interesting Codexes in the game to select our armies from, to one of the worst.

It was like giving us a big box of Legos for a few years, and then taking them all away apart from a couple of blocks and a quick thumbs up to reasure us that all was fine.

I haven't seen many who have played the previous codex for any decent period of time say they love the new book and prefer it to the 3rd ed one.

I dunno, I got along just fine with the new codex. Sure, some of the fluffy stuff was taken out, but that was because some of that really was quite viciously broken. Not all of it, but some. Besides, I can always look up fluff or just make up my own, I'm happy with a codex that's competitive. Of course, I actually own the 3rd Ed codex, so I have ALL the fluff I could want. Hoorah!

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most of the complaints are from mono-god purists, who play armies that are based around one cult trooper and one type of mark. Slaanesh DPs might be awesome at lashing people about, but Noise Marines certainly are not good as bread and butter troops (more like elites). They cant compare with a normal CSM squad given a MoS, who are basically the same statwise, but cost much less. The lists for mono-gods are also much less fluffy than they use to be. Gone are the days of Rubric Terminators (at least outside of Apocalypse) and Doom Siren Dreadnoughts, which I do find myself missing.

To a degree this is the main thing for most folks who can't stand the current CSM book. However I do not think for many of us its even about the power lvl, I'd (and I'm quite sure I'm not alone) happily sit at the bottom of the pile competive wise if we had the choices back. We went pretty much went from possibly the most fun, fluffy and interesting Codexes in the game to select our armies from, to one of the worst.

It was like giving us a big box of Legos for a few years, and then taking them all away apart from a couple of blocks and a quick thumbs up to reasure us that all was fine.

I haven't seen many who have played the previous codex for any decent period of time say they love the new book and prefer it to the 3rd ed one.

I dunno, I got along just fine with the new codex. Sure, some of the fluffy stuff was taken out, but that was because some of that really was quite viciously broken. Not all of it, but some. Besides, I can always look up fluff or just make up my own, I'm happy with a codex that's competitive. Of course, I actually own the 3rd Ed codex, so I have ALL the fluff I could want. Hoorah!

I'm more of a themed guy. Loosing a few battles is fine so long as I can still field my fluffy army. A Lord with a Mark of Khorne just doesnt feel like a true Khorne Berserker lord. Havocs with the Mark of Nurgle just doesnt feel like Plague Marine Havocs. True while that, gameplay wise, they're almost identical to their 3rd ed counterparts, they just dont fit in with the new Cult Trooper counterparts. The removal of God-specific daemons is also kind of a low blow. However taking a look at all of the possible Cult Trooper variants, it's easy to see why they're taken out. Plague Havocs will probably be devastating since they can mount in a rhino and run about pelting people with plas shots and are extremely hard to put down. Noise Marine Havocs will be equally annoying since they're effectively a unit of 4 micro battle cannons.

There's also the matter of loosing the Legion specific Rules. They could have just as easily put it into the new codex (say, take a raptor lord for Night Lords and you get Raptors as a Troop Choice. Have Warsmiths still part of the codex and when you take a Warsmith lord you get to take one or two tanks for Fast Attack). Codex: CSM is probably one of the more competitive one now, but they are lacking some of the variety seen in newer codexes (namely, the ones where the FoC is rearranged when you take a certain character).

My Word Bearers are still mourning the disappearance of their beloved Dark Apostle.....

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Codex: CSM is probably one of the more competitive one now, but they are lacking some of the variety seen in newer codexes (namely, the ones where the FoC is rearranged when you take a certain character).

So... basically like every codex that wasn't made in fifth edition?

Great to hear some feedback from you all. I totally agree that the csm codex is competitive. I just don't like the fact that I have to run obliteraters and daemon princes in order to compete. I really dig the chaos fluff but I'm turned off by the fact that if I want to stay competitive I am being pushed more and more towards a cookie cutter list. I want to be able to stay fluffy and develop my own unique kind of strategy. It seems like when opponents are playing against chaos they already know what to expect as all chaos armies are pretty similar to play against. I want to be able to be unique and competitive. Chaos is probably not the army to do this with.

But all and all yeah I'll admit there are worse off codex's out there. And nobody really wants to listen to people complain about the csm codex when csm are still competitive and kicking people's butts. But I'd be more than happy to see a new codex in the next year or two.

I feel sorry for Emperors children - they got hosed, so many redundant sonic weapons that simply arent useable.

The biggest problem isnt that it cant win - it can - but that it is fairly dull. You cant build a Legion army, you can only build a renegade with cultist backing army.

I was OK with the current book, there justification of toning things down until they came out with the current Marine codex. Then I got pissed off.

Fleet Infiltratin Terminators, Rock solid characters, 3++ saves everywhere... looks like they threw "toning down" out the window!

Granted I still do well using select units from the book but so did Dark Eldar players before last Friday. When half of the units in your list range from "why the HELL would I ever run that?!" to "not nearly as good as those are" I believe it's a shoddy codex.

It's not a question of competitiveness, it's a question of the codex making you want to play that army. Which this one doesn't. Good thing I'm building Night Blood Lord Angels instead!

SlaveToDorkness wrote:It's not a question of competitiveness, it's a question of the codex making you want to play that army.

So you mean fifth edition armies do a good job making you want to play them?

I would say that bodes rather well for CSMs whenever they get their codex, wouldn't it?

stealth992 wrote:I just don't like the fact that I have to run obliteraters and daemon princes in order to compete.

I don't think you do. Sometimes paying less for a cheaper and seemingly weaker HQ unit is better. It's very rare when the more expensive one is completely and utterly superior to the cheaper one.

For example, the Daemon Prince is an MC, which means that, with a mere +1T and +1Wn, he's actually MORE vulnerable than a Chaos Lord to enemy shooting attacks.

Melissia wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Codex: CSM is probably one of the more competitive one now, but they are lacking some of the variety seen in newer codexes (namely, the ones where the FoC is rearranged when you take a certain character).

So... basically like every codex that wasn't made in fifth edition?

Daemon and Witch Hunters have some variety since you can take Inquisitorial trooper armies, SoB armies, Grey Knight Armies or (if you had the actual books) Allied armies. Tau has Farsight Enclaves. In the newer dexes, Eldar has Wraithguard and Aspect Armies, and DA and Orks both have their own FoC reworks. The two Chaos Codexes are pretty much the only "new format" codexes that do not have their FoC reorganised when you do something special, and the Daemon Codex is excused because there's really no point in reorganising it (the only possible ones I can think of is a Full DP army or Bloodcrushers as troops, both of which will have many people Cheep cheep Cheaping all over the place).

Melissia wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:It's not a question of competitiveness, it's a question of the codex making you want to play that army.

So you mean fifth edition armies do a good job making you want to play them?

I would say that bodes rather well for CSMs whenever they get their codex, wouldn't it?

And personally the 5th ed codex are rather tempting, if only for the fluffy parts. How awesome is it to field an entire army of Sanguinary Guard, or veteran bikers, or 9 tanks, or a haemonculus coven, or a list with Monstrous Creatures as Troops? They might not be competitive or even viable in some cases, but they're possible.

Fifth edition codices are not only very fluffy, they're also very competitive. Fourth and third edition codices have to struggle to match up with fifth edition ones. Yes, even Tyranids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Daemon and Witch Hunters have some variety since you can take Inquisitorial trooper armies, SoB armies, Grey Knight Armies or (if you had the actual books) Allied armies.

That's two separate codices which have some of the same units each (inquisitors and stormtroopers, which each only have a small difference between the two books). That's not variety. And most tournaments don't allow allies nowadays, so that's not variety either. Stormtroopers are incredibly outdated, especially in the Witch Hunters codex.

stealth992 wrote:Great to hear some feedback from you all. I totally agree that the csm codex is competitive. I just don't like the fact that I have to run obliteraters and daemon princes in order to compete.

As well as almost any other unit in the army list bar (possibly) Possessed. Don't want oblits? Take Vindicators.
VINDICATORS!

Melissia wrote:Fifth edition codices are not only very fluffy, they're also very competitive. Fourth and third edition codices have to struggle to match up with fifth edition ones. Yes, even Tyranids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Daemon and Witch Hunters have some variety since you can take Inquisitorial trooper armies, SoB armies, Grey Knight Armies or (if you had the actual books) Allied armies.

That's two separate codices which have some of the same units each (inquisitors and stormtroopers, which each only have a small difference between the two books). That's not variety. And most tournaments don't allow allies nowadays, so that's not variety either. Stormtroopers are incredibly outdated, especially in the Witch Hunters codex.

Three distinct army across two books, that's pretty varied. However there are a few themed builds in 5th that are not really viable. A pure Death Company Army going at an Objectives game or having a Wolf Guard Jumppack army.

If you look at the current codex and compare it to the 3rd edition codex you'll find it is more in line with that one than the 4th edition book. Basically that is why I think Jervis Johnson is no longer writing any codices. You have a book with a few good units compared to the majority:

Lash Prince/Nurgle Prince
Greater Daemon
Obilterators
Khorne Berzerkers/Plague Marines

Occassionally you'll see some terminators. No one I know ever plays Havocs or Possessed. So it's very boring as compared to the 4th edition codex which was considered by many to be the best ever codex. To me it's just a shame when a codex takes that big of a hit. Most people I know that play CSM are fairly new to the game and did not play using the 4th edition codex. The lack of cult terminators always bothered me as well as how icons work now. So it's an okay codex if you are alright with it being a mere shade of what it used to be. Don't you think it's funny that Obliterators are T4 now when you have T5 2W Thunderwolves running around with a 3++ ?

What people play with does not equal what's good.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Three distinct army across two books, that's pretty varied.

No... it's not. IT was pitiful back in third edition and it's pitiful now. Third edition Guard and Marines, fourth edition Marines, even fourth edition Orks and Eldar, all have far more variety.

I dont think you'll find many players who'll say the units I listed aren't good. In fact they are the staple units for most CSM armies.

And? People skip over a lot of good choices because of the perception that they aren't.

Most of the complaints I've seen with the 3rd ed was that the CSM codex wasnt competitive. They kinda went in the wrong direction and got rid of the fluff when trying to make it competitive. 5th ed has been pretty good in that respect and there isnt as much "cookiecutter", but that's probably why most people are crying for updates. I dont know about the others but I tend to skip over units I dont think are fluffy. And for a supplimentary Codex the Inquisitorial ones did pretty good. Fourth Ed Orks and Eldar were written with the style of the 5th in mind (since you can see some of the FoC changes they make), especially the Orks which was prettymuch borderlining with the 5th ed release.

CSM tends to be one of the more cookie cutter netlists and is often referred to as lash spam. In general it does not have the flexibility of the last codex. Of course we all know that GW is currently dumbing down 40k so while that was to be expected to some extent I think it was a bit of an eye openers to older veteran CSM players. I'm not saying units like lesser daemons are junk or nobody in their right mind would ever field Possessed but honestly you don't seem them all that often. You can't totally sweep aside perception - it's there for a reason. If more people were winning with units like Enhanced Warriors then you'd here more good things about them. The internet tends to stick with the top performing units and builds - and that's for a good reason.

Actually, yes, you can sweep aside perception. To do otherwise is a logical fallacy called 'argumentum ad populum', or 'arguing that stuff must be popular for a good reason'.

If you can do it more power to you. But it's one thing to take about and another to actually do it. We talk about lots of things so that's okay.

Anyways here is a fantastic unit I dont see anyone using ever:

Chaos Havocs with MoK...
Load them up with meltaguns. Each Marine has four attacks on the charge. Not shabby at all but like I said I don't see anyone ever run any units like that. It's too bad.

That's actually a good unit. However Khorne Havocs are seen as un-fluffy =(

Perception.

It was from a brief era where GW was trying a too minimalist approach to their rules writing. Both it and the Dark Angels codex are a bit outdated as a result. It's still viable enough though, just lacking some flavor.

I sweep aside perception all the time.

I mean, there's plenty people out there that still think the Witch Hunters codex sucks and can't win games. Or that Orks have to have nob bikers (or just nob squads period) to win. Or that Guard needs to be mechanized to win.

As a Thousand Sons player, It's been a slap in the face to see more amazing psychic powers in every new codex. As well as improved psychic defenses in every new release. Don't get me started on the wolf codex, my 10,000 year old rivals get better spells and protection from other spells then the supposed best sorcerers in the universe. Garbage.

You mean Eldar?

Melissia wrote:I sweep aside perception all the time.

I mean, there's plenty people out there that still think the Witch Hunters codex sucks and can't win games. Or that Orks have to have nob bikers (or just nob squads period) to win. Or that Guard needs to be mechanized to win.

Most people I know respect SoB as a competitive. I think since the complete range consists of pewter minis they are unpopular. Nob bikers took a big hit with the nerf bat when the new IG came out with their PSB. Blob guard is okay but not as versatile as mech. To say you presented these as new and excepted ideas sounds a bit of a stretch - maybe within your own circle but not across the interwebs.

annabelle wrote:As a Thousand Sons player, It's been a slap in the face to see more amazing psychic powers in every new codex. As well as improved psychic defenses in every new release. Don't get me started on the wolf codex, my 10,000 year old rivals get better spells and protection from other spells then the supposed best sorcerers in the universe. Garbage.

Wolves are also suppose to abhor magic and sorcerors too. Oh delicious Irony.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:

Melissia wrote:I sweep aside perception all the time.

I mean, there's plenty people out there that still think the Witch Hunters codex sucks and can't win games. Or that Orks have to have nob bikers (or just nob squads period) to win. Or that Guard needs to be mechanized to win.

Most people I know respect SoB as a competitive. I think since the complete range consists of pewter minis they are unpopular. Nob bikers took a big hit with the nerf bat when the new IG came out with their PSB. Blob guard is okay but not as versatile as mech. To say you presented these as new and excepted ideas sounds a bit of a stretch - maybe within your own circle but not across the interwebs.

The internet is stupid, and also stupid.

Don't forget, the internet invented Al Gore.

BT - actually the *current* codex is the 4th ed one, the previous codex was "3.5" - second one released in 3rd ed.

It was very powerful all through 3rd/4th, as it exploited the power builds (siren bike princes, bound letters) hugely. It was also a complete mess in terms of layout, with lots of if/then/else/if combos in there.

The current codex is just Renegades, and I wanted a Legion book.

annabelle wrote:As a Thousand Sons player, It's been a slap in the face to see more amazing psychic powers in every new codex. As well as improved psychic defenses in every new release. Don't get me started on the wolf codex, my 10,000 year old rivals get better spells and protection from other spells then the supposed best sorcerers in the universe. Garbage.

I feel your pain brother. It must be a hard road following tszeech. I play my eldar buddy who always puts the avatar of kaine against me. that thing is a little over 150 pts toughness 6. Typhus is over 200 pts toughness 4(5).


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Nurglitch wrote:Actually, yes, you can sweep aside perception. To do otherwise is a logical fallacy called 'argumentum ad populum', or 'arguing that stuff must be popular for a good reason'.

Alright, perception aside. I refuse to play with daemon princes and obliterators because I want to have some sense of uniqueness. So I always run either Abaddon or Kharn or both. Here's my list at 1850 and I have a heck of a time being more than semi-competitive.

Abaddon

X4 Terminators: x4 combi weapons, x1 power fist

X10 CSM: x2 melta, champ with power fist, IoCG
rhino

X10 CSM: x2 plasmaguns, champ with power fist, IoCG
rhino

X8 Khorne Berserkers: champ with power fist, personal icon
rhino

X10 Lesser Daemons

X2 Defilers: x2 cc weapons

Land Raider: daemonic possession



Now that list being said, if I were to ask people what they think, they'd say drop Abaddon he costs too much. Even drop the Termies and the Land Raider. That's easily over 600 points right there. Throw in two Daemon Princes and a squad of obliteraters, and another squad of Khorne Berserkers in a rhino and you'll be truly frightening.

All I'm saying is I play with some mediocre units and when I play against a power gamer I get noob stomped. Honestly I don't think there should be anything wrong with this list. 4 troop choices, a number of guns for various situations. I've got heavy support defilers lobbing plates from behind. I've got a land raider rushing forward. I've got csm squads sneaking to claim victory points kited out with the means to take out a variety of opponents. I've even got lesser daemons ready to lend a hand at any given location.

So this is an anecdotal argument. I use semi-effective and effective units. And I'm certainly not winning any tournaments. But all kinds of people out there are trying out all kinds of stuff in the codex and telling each other how it works. And if you put all of that information together you will get a statistical correlation between the most competitive units and the units that are most popular.

So when we are talking about 'perception' we aren't arguing that popularity causes efficacy. We are saying that the popularity of a unit correlates with the effectiveness of the unit, in which case it would be reasonable to 'perceive' the most popular units as the best units. Because with a large enough sample size, the chance for error is reduced which makes the correlation more reliable.

Have a look at some serious tournaments, are there any winning chaos armies that do not include at least one daemon prince and/or one obliterator squad?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:That's actually a good unit. However Khorne Havocs are seen as un-fluffy =(

actually khorne havocs are not un-fluffy at all
khorne dont care if you shoot or chop if the blood flows

Abbadon's a pussy, both in-fluff and in-game. Stop runnin' him

Hopefully a legion codex will be released so we can play proper Chaos again.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Hopefully a legion codex will be released so we can play proper Chaos again.

"Proper" Chaos has absolutely nothing to do with Chaos Space Marines.

Melissia wrote:Abbadon's a pussy, both in-fluff and in-game. Stop runnin' him

Too many points as well, and too slow.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Abbadon's a pussy, both in-fluff and in-game. Stop runnin' him

Too many points as well, and too slow.

I'd have to agree, but he's pretty good for "hammer and anvil" tactics. I place him up front of my army, he draws all the fire, while the rest of my force pincer moves from the side. Most of the time, he can take all the punishment too, and comeback with 4 + D6 attacks.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:
Hopefully a legion codex will be released so we can play proper Chaos again.

I'd bet we'd be one of the last to get an update though.

Except if they have any sense they'll shoot your fast flanking units first, and deal with abaddon a turn later. Hence i use suicide daemon princes - the run ahead, drawing fire, and are quick enough (15" a turn, on average) that you have to deal with them before they are in combat and relatively "safe" from harm. This lets my rhino bezerkers advance, which are the long term threat

Worked well this weekend as well, 10th out of 40...

I'd suggest people stick to the topic and rather than gripe about missing the previous Codex, discuss (although this is the internet, lets say argue) how they do in 5th edition. Which is in most cases, fine.

Here's my opinion on the Chaos choices in regards to 5th edition:

- Daemon Prince - Very Good. This really doesn't need explaining.
- Chaos Lord - Average. Over-priced and not too hard hitting, but is still a very capable IC.
- Chaos Sorcerer - Average. As above, but Warptime, Wind of Chaos and Lash of Submission are all good powers.

- Chaos Terminators - Good. Cheaper than normal terminators, access to 5pts combi-weapons and lots of CC goodies. Better than their reputation, but Reaper Auto sucks.
- Possessed - Average. Look past their random factor (which still provides good bonuses) and they are a very deadly unit. Expensive however and, yes, random. But this is Chaos.
- Chosen - Above Average. Ability to wield MANY assault weapons is very effective. Infiltration is neat too. Bit too expensive again however.
- Dreadnought - Poor. Flawed by random/self-harm factor, but with 2x CCW is still a deadly unit. Too few viable options, but Crazed/Frenzy has always been there.

- Chaos Space Marines - Good. Cheaper than their Space Marine counter-parts and have a wide variety of good available to them. Special weapons are (NOW) comparatively over-priced but they make good choices alongside the more expensive cult-troops. Solid back-bone.
- Khorne Bezerkers - Very Good. Expensive but cheap for what they can do. Very deadly in assault and scoring. Only significant problem is getting them to assault.
- Noise Marines - Average. Very expensive and sonic weapon can underwhelm. Do well in small quantities and as auxiliaries rather than back-bone though.
- Plague Marines - Very Good. One of the best troop choices in the game. Deadly and GREAT for holding an objective.
- Thousand Sons - Poor. Very expensive and under-whelming performance. Only redeeming factor is AP3. Too expensive to be readily viable.

- Spawn - Very Poor. Best used as a distraction/speed-bump. Otherwise (or including) they are a helluva waste of 40pts.
- Bikers - Very Poor. Over-costed and under-perform. Can be good delivery for lesser-daemons and special weapons but are otherwise weak.
- Raptors - Good. Marginally more expensive than their recent Codex-cousins, still effective though and can fill good roles. YMMV however.

- Havocs - Poor. Low manoeuvrability and expensive weapons. Marks don't really help either. Can 4x assault weapons or autocannons but are otherwise too weak.
- Predator - Good. Often over-looked, but still pretty cheap and can provide a considerable amount of fire power and armour saturation.
- Vindicator - Good. Some hate it, some love it. Only slightly more expensive than codex-counterpart, but none-the-less very deadly, suits the Chaos play-style and DP can work well.
- Obliterators - Very Good. One of the best heavy choices in the entire game. Versatile, tough, cheap and can be numerous. It's all good.
- Land Raider - Above Average. Lacks PoTMS but is still very tough, very deadly and can work well to deliver assault units. Often under-rated IMHO.

- Greater Daemon - Good. A still good unit, very power and cheap, can appear right in front of enemy too. However, lacks wings and DP is better.
- Lesser Daemons - Average. Reliable deep-strike and pretty good in assault, scoring too. However, lack range and are expensive.

So in my opinion at least, Chaos can still perform well in 5th edition. Definitely considering the age of the Codex. Also, if they are this good at the moment, then imagine their 5th edition codex!
I admit, they aren't the best and it can be difficult to make truly competitive builds. But there are still plenty of options, plenty of themes and are still a good and competitive codex IMHO at least.

It's a codex that was born between the transition from 4th to 5th...so literally it's outdated.

As describe by other players, it still places on Tourneys...it may not 'win' with the big name armies recently, but it's still competent.

Or it could show that players that place are good players working at a handicap/making the most out of the Codex.

Right, forgot where I was going with that. The spells in the chaos book are out-dated. Warptime is the only good one, but too expensive. Lash is a pony with few tricks, once you've been to that rodeo a couple times you have it beat. The other spells can't compare to anything newer.

Just Dave wrote:I'd suggest people stick to the topic and rather than gripe about missing the previous Codex, discuss (although this is the internet, lets say argue) how they do in 5th edition. Which is in most cases, fine.

Here's my opinion on the Chaos choices in regards to 5th edition:

- Daemon Prince - Very Good. This really doesn't need explaining.
- Chaos Lord - Average. Over-priced and not too hard hitting, but is still a very capable IC.
- Chaos Sorcerer - Average. As above, but Warptime, Wind of Chaos and Lash of Submission are all good powers.

- Chaos Terminators - Good. Cheaper than normal terminators, access to 5pts combi-weapons and lots of CC goodies. Better than their reputation, but Reaper Auto sucks.
- Possessed - Average. Look past their random factor (which still provides good bonuses) and they are a very deadly unit. Expensive however and, yes, random. But this is Chaos.
- Chosen - Above Average. Ability to wield MANY assault weapons is very effective. Infiltration is neat too. Bit too expensive again however.
- Dreadnought - Poor. Flawed by random/self-harm factor, but with 2x CCW is still a deadly unit. Too few viable options, but Crazed/Frenzy has always been there.

- Chaos Space Marines - Good. Cheaper than their Space Marine counter-parts and have a wide variety of good available to them. Special weapons are (NOW) comparatively over-priced but they make good choices alongside the more expensive cult-troops. Solid back-bone.
- Khorne Bezerkers - Very Good. Expensive but cheap for what they can do. Very deadly in assault and scoring. Only significant problem is getting them to assault.
- Noise Marines - Average. Very expensive and sonic weapon can underwhelm. Do well in small quantities and as auxiliaries rather than back-bone though.
- Plague Marines - Very Good. One of the best troop choices in the game. Deadly and GREAT for holding an objective.
- Thousand Sons - Poor. Very expensive and under-whelming performance. Only redeeming factor is AP3. Too expensive to be readily viable.

- Spawn - Very Poor. Best used as a distraction/speed-bump. Otherwise (or including) they are a helluva waste of 40pts.
- Bikers - Very Poor. Over-costed and under-perform. Can be good delivery for lesser-daemons and special weapons but are otherwise weak.
- Raptors - Good. Marginally more expensive than their recent Codex-cousins, still effective though and can fill good roles. YMMV however.

- Havocs - Poor. Low manoeuvrability and expensive weapons. Marks don't really help either. Can 4x assault weapons or autocannons but are otherwise too weak.
- Predator - Good. Often over-looked, but still pretty cheap and can provide a considerable amount of fire power and armour saturation.
- Vindicator - Good. Some hate it, some love it. Only slightly more expensive than codex-counterpart, but none-the-less very deadly, suits the Chaos play-style and DP can work well.
- Obliterators - Very Good. One of the best heavy choices in the entire game. Versatile, tough, cheap and can be numerous. It's all good.
- Land Raider - Above Average. Lacks PoTMS but is still very tough, very deadly and can work well to deliver assault units. Often under-rated IMHO.

- Greater Daemon - Good. A still good unit, very power and cheap, can appear right in front of enemy too. However, lacks wings and DP is better.
- Lesser Daemons - Average. Reliable deep-strike and pretty good in assault, scoring too. However, lack range and are expensive.

So in my opinion at least, Chaos can still perform well in 5th edition. Definitely considering the age of the Codex. Also, if they are this good at the moment, then imagine their 5th edition codex!
I admit, they aren't the best and it can be difficult to make truly competitive builds. But there are still plenty of options, plenty of themes and are still a good and competitive codex IMHO at least.

Well said. But you forgot about Defiler!! I love my defilers!!! Only when they are pwning of course... and not when they get gibbed turn 1-2.

I'm less offended by the current CSM codex than I am by the 12-year-old webspeak in the OP.

Obliteratoz?
Lolnoobz?
1337?

:/

Melissia wrote:And? People skip over a lot of good choices because of the perception that they aren't.

Whereas YOUR perception is, of course, infallible.

ArbitorIan wrote:I'm less offended by the current CSM codex than I am by the 12-year-old webspeak in the OP.

Obliteratoz?
Lolnoobz?
1337?

:/

Melissia wrote:And? People skip over a lot of good choices because of the perception that they aren't.

Whereas YOUR perception is, of course, infallible.

go troll yourself

stealth992 wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:I'm less offended by the current CSM codex than I am by the 12-year-old webspeak in the OP.

Obliteratoz?
Lolnoobz?
1337?

:/

Melissia wrote:And? People skip over a lot of good choices because of the perception that they aren't.

Whereas YOUR perception is, of course, infallible.

go troll yourself

you reread your post without thinking 'wait..cogent sentence goes where?' and come back to us.

Xca|iber wrote:It's still a very competitive codex. Sure, it can be a little bland/cookie cutter, but so is C:SM if you're not taking biker armies or all drop pods.

It sure has more units in more roles than my crazy space knight Black Templars.

Word, brother, word.

Well before this spirals out of control, I'd have to say the CSM codex could use an update, but as previously stated, it's not number 1 on the list by a long shot. I say it does its job admirably against a good number of the newer codexes, and it will be updated in time. For a long time I ranted about all the nuances that don't exist anymore, how the codex took legions and made them, "space pirates", and how it forces you to use one specific list if you want real results. However I realized that all that fruitless ranting and raving was just going to give me an ulcer and premature gray hairs. with all the new codexes out there today you have a lot of great possibilities for 'counts as' Chaos armies. Does it suck? yes. Will life go on? yes. Do I not understand why Typhus, Lucius, Ahriman, and Kharn aren't counted as 'Eternal Warriors" when Lysander is? yes.

Does warhammer really not have the budget to put out these codex's when they are needed? Or what is their justification for not making the codex's balanced? This game is a lot like an rts video game. If there are armies that are unbalanced or simply better than other ones, it ruins the game. I really think there should be a more efficient way of keeping the codex's up to date and balanced. For one, at least they should have new codex's released when they change the edition. There shouldn't even be any armies playing with a codex written for the 4th edition being used in a 5th edition game.

I think codex's should be electronic and updated through the internet. That way they could keep all the armies balanced and on par with one another. And maybe you could still buy the paper back codex but it does not have any stats or rules, it only has fluff and background info. That way the paperback codex would always be the same one and the rulings would be subject to change for the sake of balance and quality of game. Personally I'd gladly pay for an electronic codex that gets updated often that I just have to print off every update.

COuple reasons why not:

1) Barrier to entry. Hard to get people going if they have to go home first to find out what everything does. In addition having rules change too often is impractical - hence the tendency to leave 40k FAQs alone.

2) Longevity. Knowing your army will be valid for, usually, at least one edition (past the 3rd ed hiccups ala Chaos, Eldar and Necron with stealth / not so stealth reprints...) means you will make the investment.

3) Time to develop. Thye dont just magicaly appear, they require model support i.e. releasing a codex isnt just releasing a set of stats. It all takes time, and the core studio team isnt huge.

Hey does this mean we'll get another CSM codex with "OMG Cheeze" type shenanigans that leave people bandwagon jumping or crying like babies??
That would be sweet.

BrotherSRM and the book Storm of Iron have me considering starting a Chaos force myself as my 4th army (IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHUHHHGGGH!!!). I like painting hazard stripes. I also like modeling and playing but dislike painting, and they seem to have a pretty simple scheme. So, I've been browsing the codex quite a bit lately.

In some ways, the layout is worse, and in some ways it's better. I like not having to go to three different pages to learn Chaos Terminators can Deep Strike and have a 2+ armor save and 5+ invulnerable save.

Strange that there is no entry for the Warsmith, but there is a model, it's so typically the other way.

The real question is when are some of these models going to get an update? I'm looking at you, Chaos Dreadnoughts, with your stupid bulky frames and dumb looking noodle arms. Honorable mentions to Raptors and Obliterators, and of course Abbadon, Master of Fail.

Ouze wrote:Strange that there is no entry for the Warsmith, but there is a model, it's so typically the other way.

Sadly under the current codex he's merely an unmarked Lord with combi-melta and power weapon/power fist/lightning claw/daemon weapon. No rules for the servo arm in the CSM codex. It's very frustrating that the codex doesn't really allow the same level of personalisation as others.

Also note that Chaos terminators do NOT have relentless; most notably they cannot fire rapidfire weapons as if stationary.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Also note that Chaos terminators do NOT have relentless; most notably they cannot fire rapidfire weapons as if stationary.

Right, edited my post to clarify.

No worries. It is similar enough to relentless that its easy to miss what it doesnt allow you to do.

Good news is most plyers IRL seem t oregard that as slowed, and are happy to let you use bolters at 24" on the move.

The question is, when is it important to Chaos termies to shoot that far to break with RAW?

WHen you lose as many to DS mishaps as I do.

I run a unit of 8 Khorne marked (of course) and so foot slogging tends to be my favourite mode.

As it stands, Chaos has several jarring flaws with it:

-Heavy Support oversaturation: Obliterators, Defilers, and Predators. This is your only ranged AT slot unless you really trust in Reaper Autoterms (ha!). Thus this area gets filled up quickly as you either take Obliterators or Autolas+Havoc Predators.
-Overcosted Fast Attack: 4th edition pointcosts rear their ugly head here as Bikes are not worth taking beyond the minimum-sized suicide squads, and Raptors are similar in this regard...and don't even get started on Spawn. "La-de-da-da-da, I'm a instadeathable, no-save, fearless gimp who must charge the closest available target? What, my opponent brought functional Walkers? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..."
-Meh Psychic ability: Warptime is good and Lash is...annoying. The rest is bleh. Ahriman is the worst Psyker Special Character in the game; when Zogwort is better than you, that's saying something. The lack of any Psychic Defense whatsover is also not nice...I'm not saying that Sorcerers should get Psychic Hoods (in fact, anything but that! Codex: Spiky Marines makes me sad), but more offensive forms of Psychic Defense including Warp Talismans or the Infernal Puppet would be nice.
-Elites that really aren't: Dreads...ugggh; they might or might not be usable depending on your local group's ruling on whether or not they see out their ass. The Terminators are nice and cheap but in most builds, the only time they're taken is as disposable combi-meltas. Possessed could be cool if you rolled the Power Weapon effect, then you notice the Khorne Berserkers in the Troop section. So this leaves...Chosen. Which aren't bad but "Infiltrating Suicide Melta" is kinda...eh.
-A random tendency to forget they're worshipping Chaos: Rather than upgrading individual models with the Mark of Their God, having Bob the Bearer remind them "Hey Guys, we're Worshipping Khorne" before being torrented out of his squad...yeah.

Or outflanking suicide melta. Although with IoK they throw out a handy amount of attacks.

CSM terminators aren't actually all that cheap; they just get less stuff by default than loyalist terminators. There's almost nothing that they actually do BETTER than BA termies or WGTs, mostly due to a lack of cheap TH/SS.

Is it outdated? Yes. Is it competitive and viable still? Yes.

The problem is a lack of versatility and the fact that many units are quickly becoming overcosted. Plague Marines were once an insane value. They are still good, but with FNP being handed out for nothing, the cost increase on them isn't quite the steal it used to be. There are plenty of overly expensive units and some that are "fun only".

HQ- Daemon Prince is so much more cost effective it hurts. The high proliferation of poisoned weapons is the only thing that makes me think twice. It's sad that my Nurgle DP fears 10 super gaunts more than 10 space marines The Sorcerer would be good if he had a hood equivalent or a free psychic power. The Lord can be good, but lacks options. Still a good section, just not great.

Elites- Do you like suicide Termies? Super unfluffy, but effective. Sadly other armies have way cheaper and better suicide meltas. Chosen are intriguing but the points add up too fast. I've not been impressed with Chaos Dreads. I always seem to have them do the wrong action at the wrong time. Overall, just a crappy section.

Troops- Normal CSM, Plague Marines and to a lesser extent Berzerkers are still good. Noise Marines are fun but get to expensive for what they are. Thousand Suns aren't good. No drop pods, no razorbacks mean no real versatility. Competitive enough I guess.

Fast attack- almost not worth dignifying. Raptors are cheap suicide squads or mini deathstar? Maybe. The rest...guh. Basically, you need to have a plan to take anything here. It's way to expensive and doesn't give enough output versus cost. Overall, crappy section.

Heavy Support-Some good choices. The problem is that the entire codices ranged anti tank is confined here. So CSM players almost have to fill all three. Oblits are great, but pay for their versatility. Make no mistake, they are appropriately costed. Predators and Vindicators are arbitrarily more expensive than their loyalist equivalents but are still good. A Daemonically Possessed Vindi is a nice choice. Defilers are ok. Too hard to get a cover save and otherwise very fragile. Havoks...not great. Land Raiders are ok, but no PotMS is only a 25 point discount? Overall, good section.

Daemons- This has been debated ad nauseum. People love them or hate them. I love them.

The problem with the CSM codex in my mind is that there "bests" at the major FOC slots. Why take a Lord or Sorcerer when you can have a DP for 25 more points? Why take anything but PM's or CSM's? Why take any elites or fast attack? Heavy support is the section that has the most debate, though Oblits offer the best versatility.

Not enough fluff or choice. That is why CSM is the biggest fail right now in my mind.

You take bezerkers over plagues now*, FNP is too easy to bypass and, while plagues generally dont die in combat they dont really kill much either.

*actually have done for a while. Hitting on 3s wounding on 3s, before MEQ equivs, is golden. But i would say that, being a khorne bunny....

I love them.

Lol... if only I could hear this more.



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FNP can be by passed sure, but those things take more points.

Plague marines are known to shrug off small arms and still do. They were not supposed to shrug off plasma equivalents...and people surprised that they are being scythed by said weapon surprise me honestly.

Basically.... the Chaos Codex is outdated, but it FORCED the meta to change along with the introduction of 5th ed.

Go mech and go special weapons.
That, to me, means they are still high on up there in terms of respect from me.

But there are more players who are in the 'here and now' and don't care about other factors...

Lol... if only I could hear this more.

Lesser Daemons fill an amazing role and have great synergy with Plague Marines. I saw a battle report on here a year ago or so and it gave me the idea. They are great against everything PM's aren't. Simple enough. I've had them run down Ghaz once. Go figure.

MagicJuggler wrote:I'm not saying that Sorcerers should get Psychic Hoods (in fact, anything but that! Codex: Spiky Marines makes me sad), but more offensive forms of Psychic Defense.

I agree on both counts. I'd like to see a corrupt psychic hood type wargear for sorcerors that, instead of simply canceling the spell, actually harms the caster - focusing the warp they were tapping into, onto them in a nasty way. Maybe even a D6 where 1-2 does nothing, 3-4 is a small bolter template, and 5-6 are psychic wounds that ignores saves, like a GK flamer.

Gw always cuts too deep. They did late 4th edition codices in a deliberate effort to make them streamlined, easy to use, and straightforward. That produced Dark Angles (Boring and lousy) and CSM (Boring with six really good units).

it was never a particularly popular book (HBMC's review is legend), but it stayed around due to the powerful POD list. As other books are showing that they can be both powerful and interesting, Chaos is looking more and more like an evolutionary dead end.

I wouldn't hold my breath for a new book. As has been stated, there are three 3rd edition books still out there, a rarely played black templar codex from early 4th, and the sneaky bad Eldar book.

Chaos is a great book compared to those.

The more and more I think about it the more I get pissed off. In the past year they have come out with two brand new armies; space wolves and blood angels. Plus they have redone dark eldar. This means they made a crap ton of new models and a crap ton of new rules for these codexs. Now as nice as it is to see two new armies.. Why the hell did they make new armies when we've got plenty of outdated models and codex's in the armies we have RIGHT NOW!?!!? Seems to me GW needs to get their priorities straight. ALOT of people play csm. It's one of the most popular armies. They do have the means to get their junk up to date it's just they used their means to make two new armies. Now all of us who are playing with outdated stuff got screwed over.

What is GW thinking? It's like buying racing tires for a bloody ford escort. Buy the racing car first, then buy the racing tires.

Blood Angels and Space Wolves are both popular and old Codices.

Blood Angels didn't even have an actual Codex (just a PDF) and Space Wolves were oldest, 2nd to Dark Eldar IIRC.
Dark Eldar REALLY needed updating, there's no point even arguing that.

Out of these three armies, only one of them could barely be used competitively and their models were (mostly) even older than CSM's.

Codex CSM still isn't that out-dated (as this thread has shown), there's a lot of conversion possibility, variety of army lists and loads of support from Forgeworld. Yes they are a very popular army, but so are many others which could claim a need for an update.

CSM really really shouldn't even be the next Codex, or the one after the next or even the one after that.

Get your facts straight. BA and SW are not two new armies and Chaos Space Marines have been looking fairly young and grey-hair free compared to Necrons, Grey Knights, SoB and until recently, Dark Eldar and Space Wolves too.

stealth992 wrote:The more and more I think about it the more I get pissed off. In the past year they have come out with two brand new armies; space wolves and blood angels. Plus they have redone dark eldar. This means they made a crap ton of new models and a crap ton of new rules for these codexs. Now as nice as it is to see two new armies.. Why the hell did they make new armies when we've got plenty of outdated models and codex's in the armies we have RIGHT NOW!?!!? Seems to me GW needs to get their priorities straight. ALOT of people play csm. It's one of the most popular armies. They do have the means to get their junk up to date it's just they used their means to make two new armies. Now all of us who are playing with outdated stuff got screwed over.

What is GW thinking? It's like buying racing tires for a bloody ford escort. Buy the racing car first, then buy the racing tires.

You're aware that BA and SW have been in the game since 2nd ed, right? And that they've been due a redone codex each since that time? That CSM have actually been updated more times than them?
I suggest you look into the facts a bit more, good sir.

Polonius wrote:Gw always cuts too deep. They did late 4th edition codices in a deliberate effort to make them streamlined, easy to use, and straightforward. That produced Dark Angles (Boring and lousy) and CSM (Boring with six really good units).

it was never a particularly popular book (HBMC's review is legend), but it stayed around due to the powerful POD list. As other books are showing that they can be both powerful and interesting, Chaos is looking more and more like an evolutionary dead end.

I wouldn't hold my breath for a new book. As has been stated, there are three 3rd edition books still out there, a rarely played black templar codex from early 4th, and the sneaky bad Eldar book.

Chaos is a great book compared to those.

I agree. The only thing that's annoying about this hobby IMO is that updates take way too long.

candy.man wrote:

Polonius wrote:Gw always cuts too deep. They did late 4th edition codices in a deliberate effort to make them streamlined, easy to use, and straightforward. That produced Dark Angles (Boring and lousy) and CSM (Boring with six really good units).

it was never a particularly popular book (HBMC's review is legend), but it stayed around due to the powerful POD list. As other books are showing that they can be both powerful and interesting, Chaos is looking more and more like an evolutionary dead end.

I wouldn't hold my breath for a new book. As has been stated, there are three 3rd edition books still out there, a rarely played black templar codex from early 4th, and the sneaky bad Eldar book.

Chaos is a great book compared to those.

I agree. The only thing that's annoying about this hobby IMO is that updates take way too long.

Nope not aware. Never seen SW nor BA in my life until this year. All I know is on warhammer.com when you look at the 40k 'armies' section, before this year there was no space wolves or blood angels. Now there is and they have a host of brand new units.

That's because they were their own independent armies with their own independent codices with a few of their own independent models.
However, they were simply categorised under 'Space Marines' in the online store.
They were however old, un-supported but much-loved armies that were revamped and simply moved in the online store to have their own category. Its simply the same thing that happens with every new army, except this time they had a change in label in GW's online store. That is all.

I'd really recommend knowing what you are talking - or more importantly - complaining about before you say it...

Just Dave wrote:That's because they were their own independent armies with their own independent codices with a few of their own independent models.
However, they were simply categorised under 'Space Marines' in the online store.
They were however old, un-supported but much-loved armies that were revamped and simply moved in the online store to have their own category. Its simply the same thing that happens with every new army, except this time they had a change in label in GW's online store. That is all.

I'd really recommend knowing what you are talking - or more importantly - complaining about before you say it...

Well I appreciate the recommendation. But unfortunately that is the way with information. You don't know what you don't know until you know it. So you can't blame me for being ignorant. Because everybody does it. And if you don't think you've done it before that's because you haven't realized you are ignorant yet. And if people don't talk about stuff with each other and show each other they are wrong or spread information, then knowledge will never progress. But all that aside, the question still remains then-

Do you think it was the best choice for GW to 're-do' SW and BA before re-doing some of the other, more 'mainstream' armies?

Because there are a lot of armies here. And obviously they don't update often. Making SW and BA mainstream is going to make SW and BA fanboys happy but also create more fanboys. So now we have even more mainstream armies. To me what this is going to do is make it even more difficult for GW to keep the game balanced for every army. But it seems like keeping the game balanced is not GW's priority. What their priority seems to be is making money. People are going to get sick and tired of playing a cookie cutter army, or a non-competitive army. People are going to get tired of playing with out dated models. So what makes more money than re-doing models and codex's? Force people to invest in building a brand new army while they put their outdated army on the shelf until a new release.

I don't think you're understanding: space wolves and Blood Angels have always been "mainstream."

The very first codex (if 2nd edition) was wolves...

Hmm. I don't really have any problems with it. EW would be nice on the special characters, but I think 4th edition in general lacked a lot of EW guys, so no big deal.

Predators and vindicators have their uses. AV 13 is nothing to scoff at. A vindicator is a staple in lash prince lists. Predatos can kick a lot of ass with Daemonic possession. They're exactly the same as their loyalist counterparts, which see action all the time.

Defilers are rape-age. They're basically what everyone wants out of chaos Dreadnoughts, to be honest.

I'll agree, possessed, spawn and chosen are basically useless. They're just fluffy options. Possessed would be much better if they were:

5 0 5 5 1 5 2 10 3+ 5++

They really should be an upgrade to a champion as well. Possessed never work in groups in the fluff. But that's just me.

The chaos land raider used to be exactly the same as the loyalist one in the 3.5 codex. It was pretty useful then, and still is. It's still a pretty good gun-tote.



Obliterators...Haha. I'm tempted to say that they need a "Obliterator lord' HQ choice, plus an option to upgrade a vehicle with Obliterator tank weapons. Hear me out:

Obliterator Tank upgrade: 75 points
The tank can fire any of the following weapons, once per turn, blah blah
- Plasma Cannon
- Lascannon
- Demolisher cannon
- Battle Cannon

Okay, so there's my thoughts on them.


Just use a combination of old chaos codex rules. I've been playing a primarily 3.5 dex army. I use the 4th edition cost for regular CSM units and raptors.

I really, really like your idea for obliterator tanks/chanpions...

stealth992 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:That's because they were their own independent armies with their own independent codices with a few of their own independent models.
However, they were simply categorised under 'Space Marines' in the online store.
They were however old, un-supported but much-loved armies that were revamped and simply moved in the online store to have their own category. Its simply the same thing that happens with every new army, except this time they had a change in label in GW's online store. That is all.

I'd really recommend knowing what you are talking - or more importantly - complaining about before you say it...

Well I appreciate the recommendation. But unfortunately that is the way with information. You don't know what you don't know until you know it. So you can't blame me for being ignorant. Because everybody does it. And if you don't think you've done it before that's because you haven't realized you are ignorant yet. And if people don't talk about stuff with each other and show each other they are wrong or spread information, then knowledge will never progress. But all that aside, the question still remains then-

Do you think it was the best choice for GW to 're-do' SW and BA before re-doing some of the other, more 'mainstream' armies?

Because there are a lot of armies here. And obviously they don't update often. Making SW and BA mainstream is going to make SW and BA fanboys happy but also create more fanboys. So now we have even more mainstream armies. To me what this is going to do is make it even more difficult for GW to keep the game balanced for every army. But it seems like keeping the game balanced is not GW's priority. What their priority seems to be is making money. People are going to get sick and tired of playing a cookie cutter army, or a non-competitive army. People are going to get tired of playing with out dated models. So what makes more money than re-doing models and codex's? Force people to invest in building a brand new army while they put their outdated army on the shelf until a new release.

I agree, that is the way things go with information, however I still think you should really know what you are on about before you make such damning comments about someone/something. I acknowledge that everyone's been ignorant, I have too, however it's how you cope with this ignorance and attacking something you know little about isn't the way to do it. Hopefully, as you've said, your knowledge will have "progressed" now to acknowledge that GW aren't completely ignoring CSM and now atleast do have some of their priorities straight, considering right now it's mostly the oldest Codices being redone.

BA and Space Wolves always were 'mainstream' armies. They weren't the biggest and they aren't as popular as CSM, however they do have a large fan-base, role in fluff and recieved even less support from GW than CSM did.
As a business, GW's priority is - sadly - to make money. Whilst that more and more harms us - the fanbase - due to price-rises and the like, it's part of being a business, it's just Games Workshop don't seem to treat their customers like they probably should.
The Codices often aren't balanced, although you'll find that compared to each other, most of the 5th edition ones are. However, in may cases they are also horribly OTT (I'm looking at you Blood Angels and TWC) and the balance in power would be hard to achieve without regular updates etc.


Back on topic however, as Samus has touched upon, not every character should have eternal warrior. I'd much rather it didn't become the next Feel No Pain.
I also agree with many of his points about the Predator and Vindicator.
I think for now atleast the Codex is holding up well and no showing its age too much. This really really could change as more and more armies are updated, but I think it's doing well considering...

Well I definitely agree that chaos is not the first codex that needs an update and I don't think this thread is about proving that chaos should be first in line. But if we just look at the csm codex objectively and put all other armies aside, we can still see that it is outdated. And the fact that the csm is outdated enough to make people like me whine, and it's not even close to being the worst codex, makes GW and the current state of balance in 40k look pretty bad. Just because there are worse codex's than the csm codex does not mean the csm codex is 'good'. Even if the csm codex was the best codex this does not mean that it necessarily must be good. Only good considering or relatively. What this implies is the quality of the 40k game as a whole.

Does the csm codex need an update? Yes.
Do a lot of codex's need an update? Yes.
Has GW lived up to your expectations? No.
Is the current state of the csm codex and the 40k metagame good enough to keep you playing? I've invested too much time, energy and money to quit 40k. For something that I've invested so much into, it sucks that I'm not really happy with GW.

stealth992 wrote:Nope not aware. Never seen SW nor BA in my life until this year. All I know is on warhammer.com when you look at the 40k 'armies' section, before this year there was no space wolves or blood angels. Now there is and they have a host of brand new units.

Perhaps then, you may wish to research a little deeper. Both the SW and the BA have had previous codexes, and these are truly ancient - indeed, they became so unusable that BA was replaced with a temporary PDF and SW was taken off the shelves completely.

Tell you what, I'll do your research for you. Here are the previous codex covers.

The Blood Angels, complete with Mark IV "Toilet-Neck" Terminator armour...


And the Space Wolves, featuring a very angry ginger man.

As you can see, I wasn't making it up.

I forgot about the angry ginger dude. That codex cover used to always crack me up

If you want to go older:

2nd Edition Space Wolves, the very first Codex.


2nd Edition Angels of Death, including Blood Angels and Dark Angels.

ArbitorIan wrote:Whereas YOUR perception is, of course, infallible.

Did I say that? No? Then you can stop right there and not continue that line of thought.

I would indeed claim I do have a better perception of the metagame than most people. Infallible? No. No human being is infallible. But given how many people go around whining about how everything that isn't their army list is overpowered/underpriced/broken/whatever, being better than the norm is hardly a high hurdle to jump.

Most people just suck.

Melissia wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:Whereas YOUR perception is, of course, infallible.

Did I say that? No? Then you can stop right there and not continue that line of thought.

I would indeed claim I do have a better perception of the metagame than most people. Infallible? No. No human being is infallible. But given how many people go around whining about how everything that isn't their army list is overpowered/underpriced/broken/whatever, being better than the norm is hardly a high hurdle to jump.

Most people just suck.

Just..Stop.

This is a good thread that needs to stay around(If we want to prevent noobs from making new threads of course...).

I understand what you're saying though.

The codex is still solid, and it really allows for alot of imagination with your modeling. Using fights as rules suits chaos very nicely IMO.

Wow Melissa that was so thoughtful. Color me not impressed.

I'm guessing this thread has reached a natural end............

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Wow Melissa that was so thoughtful. Color me not impressed.

I don't really particularly care...

The Sisters codex is far more out of date, lacking in variety, and internally unbalanced. We still use models from second edition for that matter. Yet I'm not making a whine thread about how the codex is broken, or weak, or whatnot-- instead I figure out how to win with what I have, while trying to match the army's lore with my army list.

The new CSM codex will come when it GW wants it to, and no amount of complaining on an internet forum will speed it along. Until then, you have one of the best codices out here at this moment, indeed, I would say it's tied with Eldar as the best non-fifth edition codex in fifth edition when it comes to both competitiveness AND variety. It's not perfectly internally or externally balanced, but there's only a couple really useless units- everything else has a place in a competitive army, if you're only willing to adapt.

Sanctjud wrote:I'm guessing this thread has reached a natural end............

My thoughts exactly....Seriously people....Why can't you just not pick fights with mellisia? You can't win. She always wins.

I see we are now entering 'after party' territory... Samus is getting the party started with kissing Melissia's resin bottom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a compeltely different note, I completely missed my reaching 6000 posts after 67 posts...dur...

Back on topic with ye, me hearties.

Sanctjud wrote:I see we are now entering 'after party' territory... Samus is getting the party started with kissing Melissia's resin bottom.

Something like that.

Anyway. I keep thinking we need something like a venerable dreadnought. Let me explain.

Okay, so it's just a regular dreadnought, but you can pay XX points to make it lose the 'crazed' rule. In addition, the dreadnought gains +1 BS and +1 WS (Like a loyalist venerable).

Not only that, but I was thinking about dreadnought marks.

Khorne: The dreadnought gains attacks in every assault phase equal to a D6 roll (Not stackable, just roll once per turn)
Slaanesh: Units in assault with the dreadnought must make a leadership test with a -2 modifier. If they fail, the unit immediately goes to ground.
Nurgle: All armor values are increased by 1. In addition, all attacks made by the dreadnought count as poisoned and wound on a 3+
Tzeentch: The dreadnought becomes a psyker and may choose up to two psychic powers from the list. It may not choose powers that aren't tzeentch or undivided.
Undivided: The dreadnought gains +1 WS and may re-roll one attack per turn in the assault phase.

I guess all of these could work for defilers too, the more I think about it.

I liked it back in Index Astartes when they had the Thousand Sons rules that if you took Demonic Possession on a Dreadnaught, it would lose the 'Crazed' rule to represent the fact that the Marine inside is dust.

IA were some great articles...

Devilsquid wrote:I liked it back in Index Astartes when they had the Thousand Sons rules that if you took Demonic Possession on a Dreadnaught, it would lose the 'Crazed' rule to represent the fact that the Marine inside is dust.

IA were some great articles...

Really? I own a 'copy' of index astartes....Never seen this. Do you a page number? I'm sorry

I personally dislike all the criticism of the Unstable Dreadnought Rule. Correct me if I'm wrong but it's been there for pretty much ever and it fits with the fluff and the random nature of Chaos.
Whilst it does loose competitiveness as a result, it's still flavoursome and further separates it from the SM dex.

I'd prefer it if there was a 1/6 chance of it not going crazy or potentially a venerable-esc rule stopping it from such, to add further variation etc. but I'd prefer such a rule to stay at its heart at-least.

I remember in my first ever game, my Chaos Dread went crazy and killed my Sorceror and Missile Launcher Tac. Dude, preventing me from taking down the Monolith and then doing nothing for the rest of the game and actually, I love it for such a thing. It was so bad, but so funny and memorable. I guess it's a different story for competitive players though...

Guys, check out my AWESOME thought experiment!

Sorry if this has been talked about before, I don't come on the forums often. But I just tried searching for a similar topic and I couldn't really find anything. Anyways here are my thoughts. I have a tldr at the bottom for those of you that don't want to waste your time with my rant.

I feel like the IG Codex is outdated. Why? Pretty much all the independent characters have no real purpose other than to fulfill fluff. CCS is almost always a better choice than an independent character. I would have liked to see the independent characters affecting the army as whole like changing play style and such like the space marines have.

Enginseers and Penal Legion are useless. Elite well.. what IG player actually runs Elite competitively? Ratlings... an infiltrating squad that cannot hold a point? That's pretty much only ever used to wound an MC?

Fast Attack? VENDETTAS LOLZ HAHAHA WTFOMGOMGOMGLULZZZ111. Why would you even consider playing scout sentinels, armoured sentinels, hellhounds, or rough riders when vendettas are so 1337? Rough Riders because they are fluffy? Devil dog because you bought one before you knew how good Vendettas are? Rough Riders? I've never seen an Rough Rider in my life. Maybe it has its uses but Vendettas are still numbro uno. Armoured Sentinels? Nobody wants to run a Armoured Sentinel because everyone is complaining about how the Armoured Sentinel sucks compared to the sm dreadnought.

I'm not saying the codex sucks. What I'm saying is its unbalanced. There are some really great units in the codex and there are some really terrible units, and then there are mediocre units. The problem is that the really great units (ie. Vet squads and Vendettas) over shadow the rest of the codex's choices. The main thing I'll complain about is all the cool independent characters that are pretty much useless. Okay some are usable like Creed for instance but don't even get me started on Yarrick.

The codex did well with the vet troops in that you can have a sense of specialization or a solid scoring unit. But for those that want to run a catachan list or a Armageddon list, Harker and Yarrick are lolnoobs when compared to the vanilla CCS choices. Oh and I forgot about storm troopers. Great when used as a 5 man suiicide squad for 105 pts. But if you want to dedicate them to staying on the table, then you need to run a ten man squad to make the chimera's price worth it. And even then, that is a very expensive squad that is not fearless. Nobody really runs 10 man storm trooper squads, it's just not practical. What are you going to do? Deep strike them? That's like a 250+ price squad that comes in approximately turn 3-4 on average. And on the turn it comes in it can't move. So if they come in on turn three, they aren't assaulting anything until at least turn 4. These squads are only viable in massive games because in smaller games they just take up too much of your army pts and puts it off the table leaving your three chimeras to get pwned.

And Yarrick. The coolest looking independent character of all time. Badass of Armageddon. Yarrick who is the god of the Commissariat. His followers are known for being particularly resilient. Now check this out. Yarrick's save is 4+. Yep he gets instagibbed by powerfists. wow. And to make matters worse that's over 150 points for a model that gets instakilled and provides no bonuses to your army. LORD OF THE COMMISSARIAT HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE RESILIENT. A regular commissar lord has a 5+/5++. A priest with rosarius 4++. EVERYBODY AND THEIR MOTHER'S DOG HAS A 5++!!!!! He needs an invul save. period.


TLDR

Do you think the IG codex is outdated? Unbalanced? I think it does not allow for much variety. I play IG what should I buy. Vendetta and Infantry Squads, durr. Oh you like Steel Legion? Cool you could get Yarrick he's an independent character who was on Armageddon. Oh I forgot CCS are better. durr. What do you think of the IG codex?

Anyone know if they are going to make a new codex for IG? And if so when?

/thread

TLDR

Do you think the IG codex is outdated? Unbalanced? I think it does not allow for much variety. I play IG what should I buy. Vendetta and Infantry Squads, durr. Oh you like Steel Legion? Cool you could get Yarrick he's an independent character who was on Armageddon. Oh I forgot CCS are better. durr. What do you think of the IG codex?

Anyone know if they are going to make a new codex for IG? And if so when?

I was talking to a friend just the other day about something that people seem to not get:

Just because something is "sub-optimal" or "less efficient" doesn't mean it is "unusable" or "uncompetitive".

Perhaps it's a WAAC mindset that really permeates most people. Maybe it's that people don't like to think for themselves. Or perhaps most are too lazy to make original lists and proxy units instead of ripping power lists of the internet. I don't know.

What I do know is that lots of the time units that are viable and sub optimal are still usable in a competitive environment. You can win with Berzerkers or Noise Marines. It's just that regular CSM and PM's do it better. Does that make them untakable? No. You can win with a Blood Angels commander. Sure, the Librarian is a better value, but does that in itself make the Commander "unusable"? No. I just can't take this kind of mindset seriously.

The reason that the CSM codex needs an update is because it is boring. Legions are gone. Cool weaponry and flavor is gone. I want fluff dammit! I should be restricted when playing a legion, but gain access to cool units and wargear as a reward. A Daemon Prince shouldn't be 25 more points than a Sorcerer who gains only one advantage (hiding in units/vehicle). Flavor is the number one gripe I have with the codex. The newer stuff is catching up to it, but it can still win.

The Guard examples prove nothing except the narrow minded view many gamers hold dear.

Bottom Line: Less efficient ≠Not Takable

If people had a WAAC mindset they'd not give up so easily. No, they have a munchkin mindset.

JGrand wrote:
Just because something is "sub-optimal" or "less efficient" doesn't mean it is "unusable" or "uncompetitive".

Yes, I don't think I could agree more. That's all I hear in the OP though. BTW, my friend plays with a Chaos Vindi. It works well for him.

The reason that the CSM codex needs an update is because it is boring. Legions are gone. Cool weaponry and flavor is gone. I want fluff dammit! I should be restricted when playing a legion, but gain access to cool units and wargear as a reward. A Daemon Prince shouldn't be 25 more points than a Sorcerer who gains only one advantage (hiding in units/vehicle). Flavor is the number one gripe I have with the codex. The newer stuff is catching up to it, but it can still win.

The Guard examples prove nothing except the narrow minded view many gamers hold dear.

Bottom Line: Less efficient ≠Not Takable

I completely agree with you. I've read through both, the old CSM and the 'new' CSM, and I agree that they've lost a lot. You ARE the bland marines now. The OP just seems to be whining about the fact that there is only one 'Timmy, Power Gamer' build.

Melissia wrote:
If people had a WAAC mindset they'd not give up so easily. No, they have a munchkin mindset.

But that's the wrong... eh, close enough.

-Loki- wrote:If you want to go older:

2nd Edition Space Wolves, the very first Codex.


2nd Edition Angels of Death, including Blood Angels and Dark Angels.

Good work. This, if nothing more, proves my point.
Anyway, back to the CSM. Again, there's a lack of fluff, but to be fair that's still not a big deal. Well, it might be if you're trying to play Legions, but whatever. Fact is a lot of that fluff is still around, and is also pretty damn easy to find. Maybe that doesn't suit everyone, but it's never caused me issues.

I love that old SW cover! I believe its the same artist who did the cover for the old 'Chaos Renegades' cover, with the Khorne marine bestriding the fallen statue?

If you find the new Codex: CSM too limiting, I can't recommend enough the FW: Imperial Armour books enough. Book 5 features a standard renegades list (something not seen since the withdrawn Eye of Terror codex), 6 deals with Nurgle forces (marines with zombies!) and 7 with Khorne renegades. The books are wonderful, and I've heard some pretty good feedback from their level of balance (if anything, a little over-costed).

Certainly, for those who think the latest C:CSM has reduced Chaos somewhat ironically to the most boring and un-characterful army in the game, they are definitely something to consider.

Yes, I don't think I could agree more. That's all I hear in the OP though. BTW, my friend plays with a Chaos Vindi. It works well for him.

I actually do too. At worst it's a nice distraction. It was fun to model as well.

I completely agree with you. I've read through both, the old CSM and the 'new' CSM, and I agree that they've lost a lot. You ARE the bland marines now. The OP just seems to be whining about the fact that there is only one 'Timmy, Power Gamer' build.

I think the blandness is first on the list of why it's bad. I do however, think that there is plenty that can be done better. I used the example of a BA Commander being underused compared to a Librarian. There are multiple reasons to take the Commander which can be weighted in accordingly. In the CSM codex there is almost no reason to roll with a Lord or Sorcerer. The only thing they do better is to hide in a squad, which would be fine if they didn't cost a mere 25 points less. The benefits of the DP are worth those few points 90% of the time.

There are also plenty of units that truly need some work. I'm not saying that Bikes, Possessed, and Chosen can never be taken or do well; what I am saying is that the point costs have become way out of line with other codices. The aren't horrible, but ultimately can be a liability more than a help unless the army is building around them. Both the Elite and Fast Attack sections are rather gimmicky. All of the stuff there is now done cheaper, better, more efficient, and more take-able in other codices. I think this is why people start to get a bit upset. Why do the CSM bikers pay 8 more points for an extra attack? Why are Raptors flavorless and more costly than Assault Marines? Why do the Predator and Vindicator cost 15 more points? Because the codex is outdated.

Again, this stuff can all be used. It's still viable, just suffering a bit from codex creep. It happens and other armies are much, much worse off in that regard.

Good work. This, if nothing more, proves my point.
Anyway, back to the CSM. Again, there's a lack of fluff, but to be fair that's still not a big deal. Well, it might be if you're trying to play Legions, but whatever. Fact is a lot of that fluff is still around, and is also pretty damn easy to find. Maybe that doesn't suit everyone, but it's never caused me issues.

I have always hated a HQ commanding differently marked troops. The basic troops of the CSM codex should be marines with access to marks (not icons) and lesser daemons (with access to marks). The Cult troops should be elites. The Mark of the HQ should unlock that particular cult troop as a troop choice. I just can't stand the lack of fluff in most lists. "Durr hurr this Slaneesh DP and his identical buddy lead these Plague Marines while employing the help of three full units of extremely rare Obliterators". ...shiver....

JGrand wrote:

TLDR

Do you think the IG codex is outdated? Unbalanced? I think it does not allow for much variety. I play IG what should I buy. Vendetta and Infantry Squads, durr. Oh you like Steel Legion? Cool you could get Yarrick he's an independent character who was on Armageddon. Oh I forgot CCS are better. durr. What do you think of the IG codex?

Anyone know if they are going to make a new codex for IG? And if so when?

I was talking to a friend just the other day about something that people seem to not get:

Just because something is "sub-optimal" or "less efficient" doesn't mean it is "unusable" or "uncompetitive".

Perhaps it's a WAAC mindset that really permeates most people. Maybe it's that people don't like to think for themselves. Or perhaps most are too lazy to make original lists and proxy units instead of ripping power lists of the internet. I don't know.

What I do know is that lots of the time units that are viable and sub optimal are still usable in a competitive environment. You can win with Berzerkers or Noise Marines. It's just that regular CSM and PM's do it better. Does that make them untakable? No. You can win with a Blood Angels commander. Sure, the Librarian is a better value, but does that in itself make the Commander "unusable"? No. I just can't take this kind of mindset seriously.

On the note of 'mediocre units being unusable in light of better units'. Firstly, I'll have you note I do not use daemon princes or obliterators. So if I believed mediocre units are unusable why would I be using them? I am by no means a power gamer. But logically speaking, if you had the choice to pick up your new girlfriend in a ferrari or a ford escort, which ones it gonna be? That's just logic. What I would have liked to see for instance are not units that are so good that they completely dominate their section, but a variety of units in a section that have their own 'niche' in the game. When I run my defilers, I hate having the feeling that I would be in a better situation right now if I had brought obliterators. Especially when my defiler gets pwned second turn. And when my 275 point abaddon rolls a 1 and wounds himself I can't help but think I'd be a lot better off if I brought a daemon prince for half the price. How do you not understand what I'm talking about? This is not a WAACs mentality, this is just logic. Although to be fair, I exaggerate a lot when I rant for dramatic effect and to get people riled up so they'll get involved with the thread.

Although, your bottom line being that less efficient does not equal not take-able I agree with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JGrand wrote:

I have always hated a HQ commanding differently marked troops. The basic troops of the CSM codex should be marines with access to marks (not icons) and lesser daemons (with access to marks). The Cult troops should be elites. The Mark of the HQ should unlock that particular cult troop as a troop choice. I just can't stand the lack of fluff in most lists. "Durr hurr this Slaneesh DP and his identical buddy lead these Plague Marines while employing the help of three full units of extremely rare Obliterators". ...shiver....

I lol'd well said mate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JGrand wrote:

I have always hated a HQ commanding differently marked troops. The basic troops of the CSM codex should be marines with access to marks (not icons) and lesser daemons (with access to marks). The Cult troops should be elites. The Mark of the HQ should unlock that particular cult troop as a troop choice. I just can't stand the lack of fluff in most lists. "Durr hurr this Slaneesh DP and his identical buddy lead these Plague Marines while employing the help of three full units of extremely rare Obliterators". ...shiver....

I lol'd. Well said.