I've been thinking of playing IG, but I really like the Steel Legion and Death Kreig or whatever it's called.

Pretty much the WW2 looking ones, or Axis army / Nazi / Hellghast ( Killzone 2)

So yeah, I used to play Wolfenstein, COD: World at War, Day of Defeat, Medal of Honor. etc. (WW2 Games.)

But, would it be wrong to paint my IG black and gray, i.e. Nazi colors? Like I even thought of the Iron Cross and Swatsika and SS symbol.

I can see where this can look cool, for history's sake, and offensive for I guess some people.

My friend suggested do it like Nazi, but replace the symbols with 40k symbols.

What does dakka think?

There are plenty of black and grey DKoK armies. However, I would stop short of using actual Nazi symbols.

You can certainly hint at the origin (as Wolfenstein does using white, red and black symbols etc) but I would avoid creating a Nazi IG army (though I believe that a few do exist out there - be prepared to defend your choice and get a lot of looks if you ever take them out of the house).

SilverMK2 wrote:There are plenty of black and grey DKoK armies. However, I would stop short of using actual Nazi symbols.

You can certainly hint at the origin (as Wolfenstein does using white, red and black symbols etc) but I would avoid creating a Nazi IG army (though I believe that a few do exist out there - be prepared to defend your choice and get a lot of looks if you ever take them out of the house).

Well at my current FLGS, I talk to them about it, and they think it's cool we have a lot of military fanatics, Marines/Navy/Army service men.

I don't know how it'd work outside of that store, as long as I don't play anyone who'd be offended I think it'd be nice.

I just don't see the need - in a historical game, fair enough. I just don't really see the need of it in 40K - you can make up any fluff you want. Sure, make them the "master race" or a "pure strain" of Terra, etc, make them a bit evil and sinister, but make up your own symbols etc too. By all means, hint very heavily at their origins.

The problem is that when most people see the symbols, they see the history. If they see a dark grey and black DKoK army they see a DKoK army and are not slapped around the face with history when they are not expecting it.

SilverMK2 wrote:I just don't see the need - in a historical game, fair enough. I just don't really see the need of it in 40K - you can make up any fluff you want. Sure, make them the "master race" or a "pure strain" of Terra, etc, make them a bit evil and sinister, but make up your own symbols etc too. By all means, hint very heavily at their origins.

The problem is that when most people see the symbols, they see the history. If they see a dark grey and black DKoK army they see a DKoK army and are not slapped around the face with history when they are not expecting it.

I get what you mean...

Player: "Oh cool DKoK!"
Me: "No... Nazis."
Player: "Oh... uh... :("

The colors are fine.

But actual nazi symbols? That's just stupid.

The Iron Cross, maybe-- it's similar to the symbol used by a certain Astartes chapter after all. But the swastika really has no place.

I would skip the nazi icons. IIRC Steel Legion have lightning bolts on their shoulders. When I had some of those guys I painted them in grayish/black and just highlighted the lightning bolt with yellow.

Also, IIRC, the lightning bolt is a symbol for the "Blitzkrieg" style of war, or lightning war. Where they bomb the enemy terribly into terror.

If you want to relater them to nazi's I think your best bet would simply be to paint the lightning bolt yellow. But no other icons.

Use red white and black. Maybe use oak leave patterns.
Snakes are suitably evil and crossed lightning bolts could be used.

there are many ways to give your force the air of Teutonic supremacy and menace without resorting to the usual, suspect, ideas.

Skip the swastika altogether, it isn't needed. Honestly, more than anything, having to discuss why you use Nazi symbology will detract from any cool scheme you do come up with.

I would not play with someone who had a seriously nazi themed 40k army. Honestly, their presence might be enough to get me to leave the group/store. No need to bring up nazis outside of a historical context unless it is to mock them.

Using a nice looking colour scheme despite its use by Nazi Germany is fine. Using an aspect of the colour scheme because it was used by Nazi Germany would mark you as an idiot. The only reason you even contemplated using the swastika as part of your proposed colour scheme is because the Nazis did it, which isn't much of a reason at all when you're making an army fighting for the Imperium of Mankind, not Nazi Germany.

That said, leaving a group or store just because some idiot did something stupid but completely harmless would also mark you as an idiot.

As a foil to a lot of the other people here, while I wouldn't use the theme myself, I certainly wouldn't say that you using a Nazi symbol or theme marks you as an idiot, stupid, bigot, or any other such thing.

Being a Jew myself, I would say that I would almost certainly want to play and grind your army to dust or do my best to do so.

If a person chooses not to play you, that's fine and it's their choice.

If a person heckles your and tries to get in your face about it, simply dismiss them and move on. Artistic imagery is a personal choice. If the people here playing the role of your critic were the mental majority, we as a society would be robbed of some pretty good movies in the very least.

Hell, in my opinion, Space Marines are little more than militant catholic space Nazis.

Just use the reverse of the swastika then you stand for everything it was originally intended for! a symbol of good luck, and possibly of fertility and regeneration.
Just because the nazis ruined it for the average bloke doesn't mean you can't do it.. Just be prepared to explain yourself and possibly carry printouts of the history of the swastika. Then proceed to call X person an uninformed bigot. case closed

Thunderfrog wrote:If the people here playing the role of your critic were the mental majority, we as a society would be robbed of some pretty good movies in the very least.

I don't think that quite fits - movies, historical games, etc - they are fine. Plenty of people play various parts of the German armed forces in Flames of War, etc. I'd be happy to play against them or even play as the Germans myself. Movies again are fine - you have a movie about Germany during the war there are bound to be Nazi images etc contained within it, perhaps even graphic depictions of silly lip hair, strange walks and so on.

The point is that one expects such things in movies, books, historical games etc.

In a game such as Warhammer 40k, which has little to no connection to "reality" and where the "real world" merely influences, a full blown "Nazi" army is not expected. As I suggested and others also commented on - you are more than welcome to base your stuff on Nazi imagery, even base your background on it. The problem comes when you plop down commander Adolf and screen your army with penal legion "counts as" concentration camp victims and have everything painted with Nazi symbols etc.

I have no doubt that even the smallest bit of Nazi iconography would cause raised eyebrows.

Lots of young boys go through a "Nazi" phase and at best such an army would be considered as something like that, at worst it could be seen as a deliberate way of insulting people/etc.

Not knowing the OP, I can't really say anything on this score, but in general I would be disinclined to play against someone who I had heard/seen using a Nazi themed 40k army. As I said - it is not needed in this setting and, from my experience, either a sign of immaturity and a desire to "shock", or some deeper seated issue.

The_Savior wrote:I've been thinking of playing IG, but I really like the Steel Legion and Death Kreig or whatever it's called.
Pretty much the WW2 looking ones, or Axis army / Nazi / Hellghast ( Killzone 2)
So yeah, I used to play Wolfenstein, COD: World at War, Day of Defeat, Medal of Honor. etc. (WW2 Games.)
But, would it be wrong to paint my IG black and gray, i.e. Nazi colors? Like I even thought of the Iron Cross and Swatsika and SS symbol.
I can see where this can look cool, for history's sake, and offensive for I guess some people.
My friend suggested do it like Nazi, but replace the symbols with 40k symbols.
What does dakka think?

Black and Grey is fine as is the Iron Cross.

Some people will get stroppy over swastikas, SS markings and even red armbands. Personally, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.


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AlexHolker wrote:Using a nice looking colour scheme despite its use by Nazi Germany is fine. Using an aspect of the colour scheme because it was used by Nazi Germany would mark you as an idiot.

You know, there is a reason that lots of people collect German WW2 uniforms, etc - they were pretty cool. We certainly didn't hire big name fashion designers for our kit!

Scott-S6 wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I've been thinking of playing IG, but I really like the Steel Legion and Death Kreig or whatever it's called.
Pretty much the WW2 looking ones, or Axis army / Nazi / Hellghast ( Killzone 2)
So yeah, I used to play Wolfenstein, COD: World at War, Day of Defeat, Medal of Honor. etc. (WW2 Games.)
But, would it be wrong to paint my IG black and gray, i.e. Nazi colors? Like I even thought of the Iron Cross and Swatsika and SS symbol.
I can see where this can look cool, for history's sake, and offensive for I guess some people.
My friend suggested do it like Nazi, but replace the symbols with 40k symbols.
What does dakka think?

Black and Grey is fine as is the Iron Cross.

Some people will get stroppy over swastikas, SS markings and even red armbands. Personally, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Agreed that black/grey and even iron crosses are acceptable. As the iron cross wasn't a Nazi symbol. If you don't want the odd funny look I'd shy away from usage of red armbands and their signature symbols. Using imperial eagles and skulls works though. Far flung future feudalism/fascism is fine. Real life not! Death Korps of Krieg are an amazing set of models. But aren't purely German WW2 in their style. More of an amalgamation of them and some Russian elements also.

Even then, the DKoK is much more WWI Germany than WWII. Closest we have to WWII Germany would be the Armageddon Panzergrena--I mean...Steel Legion. But still, paint them dark colors, give them Teutonic imagery, armbands too, but please....no giant swastikas on the LRBTs. I'd play you....but it'd feel kind of awkward. Not to mention a lot of people WILL be offended. Trust me, I've had personal experience with this involving a Soviet flag, 4th of July, and a summer course at Georgetown.

The_Savior wrote:I've been thinking of playing IG, but I really like the Steel Legion and Death Kreig or whatever it's called.

Pretty much the WW2 looking ones, or Axis army / Nazi / Hellghast ( Killzone 2)

So yeah, I used to play Wolfenstein, COD: World at War, Day of Defeat, Medal of Honor. etc. (WW2 Games.)

But, would it be wrong to paint my IG black and gray, i.e. Nazi colors? Like I even thought of the Iron Cross and Swatsika and SS symbol.

I can see where this can look cool, for history's sake, and offensive for I guess some people.

My friend suggested do it like Nazi, but replace the symbols with 40k symbols.

What does dakka think?

I think you should do it. Have someone else film it when you bring the army into a tournament or store. Ask everyone what they think. Be sure to post it on youtube. But I'm sure nothing could possible go wrong.

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I've been thinking of playing IG, but I really like the Steel Legion and Death Kreig or whatever it's called.

Pretty much the WW2 looking ones, or Axis army / Nazi / Hellghast ( Killzone 2)

So yeah, I used to play Wolfenstein, COD: World at War, Day of Defeat, Medal of Honor. etc. (WW2 Games.)

But, would it be wrong to paint my IG black and gray, i.e. Nazi colors? Like I even thought of the Iron Cross and Swatsika and SS symbol.

I can see where this can look cool, for history's sake, and offensive for I guess some people.

My friend suggested do it like Nazi, but replace the symbols with 40k symbols.

What does dakka think?

I think you should do it. Have someone else film it when you bring the army into a tournament or store. Ask everyone what they think. Be sure to post it on youtube. But I'm sure nothing could possible go wrong.

Oh frazzled..

I would say its a matter of context. In historic games you're playing with people who understand these things to be historic. When you play 40k or Warhammer, you're playing with people who have actively chosen a game that is fictional and intended for a younger audiance. Those two things insist on a more stringent departure from reality. That violence and cruelty and all the stuff written in the fluff is ok, because by being fantasy it is that much harder for it to have the emotional ties that realism has that would offend. While a historic game, players have gone into it with a reasonable expectation of facts. That preparedness and general heighted maturity level make the use of "controversial" symbols acceptable in one and not the other.

There's the pschological implications of the Swastika too. Back to just when WW2 ended there were so many people traumatized by the event that they could not look at the swastika without getting horrible flashbacks. Dont know if any of them are still around now (the War was quite a bit far back) but it certainly goes beyond just being offensive. DKoK is basically WW2 Germans, and their colors are just fine and you should probably go with them. Trying to actually make them into the actual Nazis will probably get alot of middle fingers coming your way.

I think though the context plays into the psychology. Someone playing a historic game would be prepared to see a Swastika, while someone playing 40k is more likely to be someone avoiding such imagery. Its an aspect of consent. You play one game you're consenting to a particular possibility, while playing the other you are not. Just like when you go and see an "R" rated movie (or the equivalent), you don't get a right to complain about boobs and blood.

Paint them black/grey. Ok that's cool.

But NO swastikas. The Steel Legion basically are German infantry anyways.

And you will be golden.

revackey wrote:Also, IIRC, the lightning bolt is a symbol for the "Blitzkrieg" style of war, or lightning war. Where they bomb the enemy terribly into terror.

The Blitz was the name for the bombing campain of Britain.
Blitzkrieg is just lightning fast warfare basically using light to medium tanks and medium bombers and not entrenching.

I allways thought DKoK was based on WWI Germans, for their emphasis on trench style warfare and artillery.

Steel Legion was based on WW1 Germans. DKoK are the WW2 ones.

EDIT: In some cases even only accurate Historical Recreations are allowed to use the Swastika. Even games in Germany are censored from having the Swastika, even if the game is said to be set in WW2.

If and when some one says something just go 'Huh, really? I saw some DKOK/Steel Legion painted like this on the Internet and it looked cool. I had no idea it had anythink to do with Nazis.' If they choose not to play you, so be it.

Smarteye wrote:I allways thought DKoK was based on WWI Germans, for their emphasis on trench style warfare and artillery.

I thought DKoK were based more on the French.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Smarteye wrote:I allways thought DKoK was based on WWI Germans, for their emphasis on trench style warfare and artillery.

I thought DKoK were based more on the French.

They are a mix of French and German WWI troops with elements of WWII German soldiers. To my mind at least.

Germans- look at thier names!

I collect steel legion AND death korps (my only 2 guard armies) and they are epic. Steel legion have the best SC guardsman (got him), the best fluff, The fortress of arrogance (got it), the iron saint (got it) and gas masks. Only downside is, thier metal and thier pricey.

DKoK are incredably detailed models, the best-looking commissars ever, and the best rules. They get the guard equivalent of a Drop pod (hades breaching drill), but units can arrive the turn after as well, and when the Drill surfaces, it inflicts a S10, 5" blast hit on anything over where it turned up. In the turns anfter, it has a 3" blast meltagun and when it rams, it counts as S10. the SRs are epic, but they are a bit pricey. I'm going for a Engineers list (basically IG vets w/ carapace armour & SG's standard), with 6 engineer squads, 6 hades breaching drills, CCS, and Genral-commissar (basically a Lord commissar).
And they get the added bonus of having super-heavies in regular 40k! Yes, I know!
Thier rules are on a FW PDF file:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf
By all means, go DKoK.
Check out my DKoK army list:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/323749.page

With the pointed helmets and gas masks, not to mention the whole 'smash them into tiny bits with artillery' mentality, I feel safe in calling the DKoK a WWI army. Like the Catachans, they're not a specific faction, but more a general approximation of that period in history.

The Steel Legion are Panzergrenadiers, basically. Just like the Mordians are Prussians, and Valhallans are the Red Army.

Black and grey is fine. It's a "menacing" color scheme, I guess.

If you had Nazi symbols or anything clearly hinting at them, I'd assume you were a supremacist or a sympathizer. I don't know a lot of people who slap Nazi imagery on things 'cause it "looks cool," nor do I care to. Your motives might be as pure as the driven snow, but honestly, I doubt a lot of people would bother to find out before making a call on them.

shrike wrote:Germans- look at thier names!

The ridged helmets and button-back coat tails are very distinctly French.


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shrike wrote: They get the guard equivalent of a Drop pod (hades breaching drill), but units can arrive the turn after as well, and when the Drill surfaces, it inflicts a S10, 5" blast hit on anything over where it turned up. In the turns anfter, it has a 3" blast meltagun and when it rams, it counts as S10.

Everyone gets the Hades. Veterans use it in a C:IG army.

Well like I said, I want it to look Nazi-theme because they look cool. Are they bad people, yes... but I like the look.

Am I a Nazi, no, do I like their style yes.

I do know it can go too far, but like I mentioned, it was only for my FLGS, I wouldn't want to go to a GT, RT, or any other tourney and present
Commissar Adolf's Legion.

Also, there are games that are historically accurate and show the symbols, it's historical. Plus, what's the point of playing a game like that if you won't ever be the bad guy?

So maybe Nazi-theme isn't the best, maybe Nazi colors, but different symbols as suggested. I'd probably go with something more Black Metal based then, ram skull, pentagram, but that also gets looks.

But I do like the reverse swastika, I know what it stands for and it'd be nice to show people what's up.

Don't put Swastikas on them, it makes you a tool.

Also DKoK are WW1. It's like saying all Germans are Nazis. So you can offend Germans and Jews at the same time.

Basically, you'll be an ignorant tool.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Don't put Swastikas on them, it makes you a tool.

Also DKoK are WW1. It's like saying all Germans are Nazis. So you can offend Germans and Jews at the same time.

Basically, you'll be an ignorant tool.

They're not WW1 guys, they're themed as so.

It's not hard to customize, or make a weird time altered army, where the German army of WW1 meets WW2 or the 40k renegade guard discover the lost uniforms of a fallen army.

Seaward wrote:Black and grey is fine. It's a "menacing" color scheme, I guess.

If you had Nazi symbols or anything clearly hinting at them, I'd assume you were a supremacist or a sympathizer. I don't know a lot of people who slap Nazi imagery on things 'cause it "looks cool," nor do I care to. Your motives might be as pure as the driven snow, but honestly, I doubt a lot of people would bother to find out before making a call on them.

^^

What the man said.

How is it possible that out of all of history people can't find something a bit less controversial than Nazi Germany on which to base their army colour scheme?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Seaward wrote:Black and grey is fine. It's a "menacing" color scheme, I guess.

If you had Nazi symbols or anything clearly hinting at them, I'd assume you were a supremacist or a sympathizer. I don't know a lot of people who slap Nazi imagery on things 'cause it "looks cool," nor do I care to. Your motives might be as pure as the driven snow, but honestly, I doubt a lot of people would bother to find out before making a call on them.

^^

What the man said.

How is it possible that out of all of history people can't find something a bit less controversial than Nazi Germany on which to base their army colour scheme?

I get what you mean, I think it's just a bad coincidence, that Nazi colors, are also what I find cool colors to theme an army on.

The_Savior wrote:Well like I said, I want it to look Nazi-theme because they look cool. Are they bad people, yes... but I like the look.

Am I a Nazi, no, do I like their style yes.

As I said above, if I'm honest, I think most people will not wait to find out your motivations before making a judgment call about the guy playing an army painted like that. I wouldn't.

Also, there are games that are historically accurate and show the symbols, it's historical. Plus, what's the point of playing a game like that if you won't ever be the bad guy?

There are indeed games that are historically accurate and show the symbols, because they're historical. Flames of War springs to mind. Warhammer 40K isn't one of them. Being set far in the future sort of nixes the possibility of being considered historical.

As for the point of playing a game if you won't ever be the bad guy? Maybe you should look into the recent Medal of Honor multiplayer controversy.

Let me put it this way; if your neighbor painted up his convertible to look like one of those Nazi staff cars, complete with swastikas - reversed or not - because he thought they looked cool, do you think the neighborhood would assume he did it because he thought it looked cool, or because he was all about Nazi ideology? I think just about everyone in the world would conclude it was the latter. It's a symbol, and an overall look, charged with a great deal of significance, and it means a lot to a lot of people - all of it bad. It's hard to be unaware of this, and choosing to go with it no matter how much you find the aesthetics appealing would be an...interesting call, to say the least.

Chongara wrote:I would not play with someone who had a seriously nazi themed 40k army. Honestly, their presence might be enough to get me to leave the group/store. No need to bring up nazis outside of a historical context unless it is to mock them.

I agree with this.

Skip the emblems and stuff, their really isnt any need for that at all and why even risk offending someone?

Seaward wrote:

The_Savior wrote:Well like I said, I want it to look Nazi-theme because they look cool. Are they bad people, yes... but I like the look.

Am I a Nazi, no, do I like their style yes.

As I said above, if I'm honest, I think most people will not wait to find out your motivations before making a judgment call about the guy playing an army painted like that. I wouldn't.

Also, there are games that are historically accurate and show the symbols, it's historical. Plus, what's the point of playing a game like that if you won't ever be the bad guy?

There are indeed games that are historically accurate and show the symbols, because they're historical. Flames of War springs to mind. Warhammer 40K isn't one of them. Being set far in the future sort of nixes the possibility of being considered historical.

As for the point of playing a game if you won't ever be the bad guy? Maybe you should look into the recent Medal of Honor multiplayer controversy.

Let me put it this way; if your neighbor painted up his convertible to look like one of those Nazi staff cars, complete with swastikas - reversed or not - because he thought they looked cool, do you think the neighborhood would assume he did it because he thought it looked cool, or because he was all about Nazi ideology? I think just about everyone in the world would conclude it was the latter. It's a symbol, and an overall look, charged with a great deal of significance, and it means a lot to a lot of people - all of it bad. It's hard to be unaware of this, and choosing to go with it no matter how much you find the aesthetics appealing would be an...interesting call, to say the least.

True, true, but I'd laugh to see my Hispanic grandpa drive a Nazi vehcile (He's my neighbor.)

I think I'd paint them the colors, and avoid the symbols.

The colours are fine. Make up your own symbols and promote creativity. Be safe and not sorry. Don't use a swastika. It's surpirsing the amount of people want to paint thier (non-Fow) army men like nazis. Like it's been said. The colours people don't mind. The symbols they do.

ChrisWWII wrote: Not to mention a lot of people WILL be offended. Trust me, I've had personal experience with this involving a Soviet flag, 4th of July, and a summer course at Georgetown.

I would like details to see if this is similar to something stupid I did once.

The_Savior wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Seaward wrote:Black and grey is fine. It's a "menacing" color scheme, I guess.

If you had Nazi symbols or anything clearly hinting at them, I'd assume you were a supremacist or a sympathizer. I don't know a lot of people who slap Nazi imagery on things 'cause it "looks cool," nor do I care to. Your motives might be as pure as the driven snow, but honestly, I doubt a lot of people would bother to find out before making a call on them.

^^

What the man said.

How is it possible that out of all of history people can't find something a bit less controversial than Nazi Germany on which to base their army colour scheme?

I get what you mean, I think it's just a bad coincidence, that Nazi colors, are also what I find cool colors to theme an army on.

No one is arguing about color schemes.
Get real. If you're not arguing color schemes, you want to put nazi symbols on. Thats being a tool.

In the bland normality of the close present, there is only political correctness.

Why not do what Marvel did, and use mythological symbols, like a Kraken or something, rather than actual Nazi imagery?

Nothing wrong with field grey minis

Nothing wrong with maltese cross on said field grey minis

Put swastikas on your models and there is a good chance someone is going to take offense and crush your minis in front of your eyes and its not like anyone is going to back you up.

But field grey is easy to paint and looks good.

Oh boy, the self riteous are out en masse! It's a symbol, get over it already. Show this much indignance over the Hammer & Sickle or the cluster of stars on Communist China's flag.

There are a multitude of symbols used by the Heer and SS on their vehicles as tactical symbols that would befuddle the average gamer as to their origins.

Very few units had a swaz on them at all in the field anyway, except for maybe a Brest Eagle on their tunic or an eagle on their hat.

Look up the Prinz Eugen mountain division and see their symbol. Innocuous to the untrained eye.

I was planning on making a circa 1943-1944 Unit of Panzergrenadiers using the pea-dot camo scheme.

Stormrider wrote:Oh boy, the self riteous are out en masse! It's a symbol, get over it already. Show this much indignance over the Hammer & Sickle or the cluster of stars on Communist China's flag.

There are a multitude of symbols used by the Heer and SS on their vehicles as tactical symbols that would befuddle the average gamer as to their origins.

Very few units had a swaz on them at all in the field anyway, except for maybe a Brest Eagle on their tunic or an eagle on their hat.

Look up the Prinz Eugen mountain division and see their symbol. Innocuous to the untrained eye.

I was planning on making a circa 1943-1944 Unit of Panzergrenadiers using the pea-dot camo scheme.

Well, perhaps you don't see it as an issue, but some people genuinely do. I tried not to be self-righteous, and like other people, offered advice rather than sneering at the OP for his decision.
Besides, that's what the majority of people said; use other Teutonic imagery, but it's best to avoid the Swastika due to it's connotations.

It's not ANY imagery whatsoever associated with the Nazi's I'd be against, and I wouldn't even mind playing a game where models were giving Nazi salutes with swastikas painted everywhere there was room. I'd question the person I was playing...but a game is a game. However, I know several people would be offended by such imagery, and I'd consider it good advice to go for other Teutonic symbols. Maybe even the dual lightning bolt of the SS if you want to since that symbol doesn't have the same connotation attached to it as a swastika.

And VikingScott, nothing much. I just wore a Soviet flag as a cape with a KGB hat on the 4th of July. I had another friend who was wearing a Revolutionary era flag as a cape, and we had a lot of posed fights to symbolize the Cold War. (We wished we could get someone wearing a Union Jack, but...alas). Of course, wearing a Soviet flag drew the attention of quite a few people who were offended by it. My friend answered them thusly: "He's wearing it to show how America is such a great, and free nation that he can do this."

I personally enjoyed that quote. Of course, I took it off when we walked to the Iwo Jima memorial for the fireworks....I figured there it might be TOO distasteful.



Photo at dinner if you're interested.

The thing is that you'd never do it. Think about how many times you'd be painting that teeny tiny image onto the arm guard of every one of your soldiers? Most people would give up after half a minute. I know that as soon as I read your first post I was laughing at the thought of it.

Stormrider wrote:Oh boy, the self riteous are out en masse! It's a symbol, get over it already.

Symbols have meaning. That's what makes them powerful. That's why they're used. Hell, that's why a lot of the are trademarked. If I showed up with an army covered in Christian crosses, or the Star of David, or even rainbow flags, would you assume that I did it because I thought those symbols looked cool, or because I had some connection to the ideologies they represented?

When in doubt don't do it.
Whenever their is even the slightest possibility of someone being offended then it is most likely a bad idea to push it since most people tend not to apply common sense when confronted by something like this.
Colour scheme fine.
Symbols, not so much.

Manchu says: Do not attempt to get around the word filters.

Go for it. I wouldn't give you anything other than a "hey cool army" if you brought that in. It's only a symbol. When you stop letting that symbol hurt you, then all it becomes is some paint on a flag or what ever. As a student of history, I would very much appreciate seeing a Nazi themed Death Korps of Krieg army, just for the coolness factor. I'm not a Nazi, but I can appreciate someone doing something that they want to do, and not censoring themselves just cause they might step on someone's toes. I'm considering picking up a squad of DKoK, just so I can paint some Nazis.

Besides not EVERYTHING the Nazis did was bad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tobacco_movement_in_Nazi_Germany

Honestly paint them however you want, if someone complains (which they will) tell them they can go buy their own box of kriegers and paint them whatever they want. You have the freedom to design these guys in nearly any fashion, so ask yourself what you want, not what other people want.

Of course it only takes a dash of common sense to know people will get angry and make assumptions, I'm probably jaded enough not to care, but all the people who do could be a good source of entertainment.

Finally if I were you the only thing I'd worry about is some punk smashing your models, which I think, considering your scheme, might be a legitamate concern.

Also Sieg Heil.

PraetorDave wrote:As a student of history, I would very much appreciate seeing a Nazi themed Death Korps of Krieg army, just for the coolness factor.

Wouldn't a "student of history" be aware that the Death Korps of Krieg don't resemble Nazis? As a "student of history," would you also appreciate seeing a Nazi-themed Catachan army, just for the coolness factor?

asimo77 wrote:Also Sieg Heil.

I really hope this is in jest.

It was. Nazis were known for their great sense of humour and stylin threads. And maybe some other stuff I read in a book, but seriously who reads books?

Seaward wrote:

PraetorDave wrote:As a student of history, I would very much appreciate seeing a Nazi themed Death Korps of Krieg army, just for the coolness factor.

Wouldn't a "student of history" be aware that the Death Korps of Krieg don't resemble Nazis? As a "student of history," would you also appreciate seeing a Nazi-themed Catachan army, just for the coolness factor?

Yes I am aware that, as a student of history (which isn't a lie, I'm currently completing my bachelors degree in History at West Chester University, in case you care), DKoK are not styled after WWII Germans, but more closely resemble WWI Germans, and to a lesser extent WWI French. However, I am aware that Warhammer is a made up game, and is compeletly fictional. As such, I think taking inspiration, and expanding on it is a worthwhile venture. For the lay person, WWI Germans isn't a far stretch to WWII Germans. Besides, if a scholar jumps on your nazi styled DKoK, just tell them that the Death Korps of Krieg doesn't represent anything even closely related to the 20th century, and therefore couldn't even be compared.

Also, a Nazi-themed Catachan army would be stupid. The Nazis never took part in jungle warfare. Fallschirmjager in jungle fatigues would just look silly. I know I just contradicted myself by comparing IG to Nazis. Sue me.

I just asked the guys at the shop what they thought.

I even asked the two players with the highest seniority, and one is in the Navy.

I was told that they thought it'd be nice, one said he didn't mind it might offend people but no one around here.

The Navy guy thought it'd be nice to see, and he doesn't even see a problem with it, and actually supported it, because like he said, it's my army you DO what you WANT. Also he said a guy back in Seattle did it too, and everyone thought it was cool.

Also, another point, it's kind of hard for a Hispanic guy like me to put a Nazi army down and say I am the Master Race.

@ The Savior. Just to throw in my two cents.

1. I would recommend not painting swastikas...I think in a lot of places especially in Europe, as we experienced Hitler, people would either think you were a Nancy or, not even think and just have a go at you. These sort of things can come back to haunt you. Imagine your boss comes round for tea, and see lots of little armed men with swastikas. Oh oh.

2. I do know what you mean though about the style...so what about considering the Thule Society. Its weird. Cultish. It shows you've thought about what you are doing and has a relatively uncontroversial downward sword as an emblem in its pre-Nazification emblem. Also, they allow a great deal of conversion potential as they were said to have created flying saucers. Think Hell Boy. That Clockwork Assassin was a Nancy in the Thule Soc.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ FYI a lot of the Nancy leadership fled to Latin American after the war due to the right wing/anti communist views and they used their skills to build up the military which led to the rise of people like Pinochet. So you might be Hispanic (European or Latin American?) (incidentally fascist Franco dictator of Spain, crappy friend of Hitler, Guernica, Spanish Civil War??? Wait. Now that would be an awesome theme for a IG army the Republicans!) but there is still a major connection to the 3rd Reich in either form of Hispanic culture...saying that the US and the USSR both absorbed technocrats and scientists into their military space programs...so...go figure.

manoknok wrote:@ The Savior. Just to throw in my two cents.

1. I would recommend not painting swastikas...I think in a lot of places especially in Europe, as we experienced Hitler, people would either think you were a Nancy or, not even think and just have a go at you. These sort of things can come back to haunt you. Imagine your boss comes round for tea, and see lots of little armed men with swastikas. Oh oh.

2. I do know what you mean though about the style...so what about considering the Thule Society. Its weird. Cultish. It shows you've thought about what you are doing and has a relatively uncontroversial downward sword as an emblem in its pre-Nazification emblem. Also, they allow a great deal of conversion potential as they were said to have created flying saucers. Think Hell Boy. That Clockwork Assassin was a Nancy in the Thule Soc.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ FYI a lot of the Nancy leadership fled to Latin American after the war due to the right wing/anti communist views and they used their skills to build up the military which led to the rise of people like Pinochet. So you might be Hispanic (European or Latin American?) (incidentally fascist Franco dictator of Spain, crappy friend of Hitler, Guernica, Spanish Civil War??? Wait. Now that would be an awesome theme for a IG army the Republicans!) but there is still a major connection to the 3rd Reich in either form of Hispanic culture...saying that the US and the USSR both absorbed technocrats and scientists into their military space programs...so...go figure.

Please elaborate as this has caught my attention.

Also wasn't that guy with blade gauntlets and goggles from Hellboy a Nazi or something?

Hi Yes,

He was a Nazi but he was primarily part of the Thule Society (I think that is why he was with Rasputin and not Hitler...or something like that...haven't seen it in ages...).


Thule Society...basically they believed in this ancient civilisation the Greco-Roman cartographers called 'Ultima Thule' meaning literally 'Edge of the world' or 'Extreme North'.
Bearing in mind that at around the 1920s Occultism was huge in Europe (See Rasputin in 1917) the Thule Society grew up actually believing that this place existed as a lost land mass called Hyperborea and that the German people where descended from there....thats why they have this belief that the aryan people were born out of ice.

I mean its kind of hard to explain in a blog post - but these guys were total nut jobs. Not only because they believed this, but they believed that Hitler was 'the savior of the Germanic people' (though I don't think they agreed on his views on Jews, just on the masterrace could be wrong). They also thought, as one does, that German people were born out of ice. That the world was hollow (another stupid conspiracy has Hitler fleeing with the Thule Society to Hyperborea where they had built a tunnel and now secretly live underground...)...

Oh. And they also believed in Aliens. Tried to build weird magneticly powered flying saucers...




Not sure if that is what you meant...or if you meant about Nazi war criminals influencing latin america. Some are still actively searched there I think.


FYI...Thule clothing? Named after this idea of ultimate north civilisation indirectly.

manoknok wrote:Hi Yes,

He was a Nazi but he was primarily part of the Thule Society (I think that is why he was with Rasputin and not Hitler...or something like that...haven't seen it in ages...).


Thule Society...basically they believed in this ancient civilisation the Greco-Roman cartographers called 'Ultima Thule' meaning literally 'Edge of the world' or 'Extreme North'.
Bearing in mind that at around the 1920s Occultism was huge in Europe (See Rasputin in 1917) the Thule Society grew up actually believing that this place existed as a lost land mass called Hyperborea and that the German people where descended from there....thats why they have this belief that the aryan people were born out of ice.

I mean its kind of hard to explain in a blog post - but these guys were total nut jobs. Not only because they believed this, but they believed that Hitler was 'the savior of the Germanic people' (though I don't think they agreed on his views on Jews, just on the masterrace could be wrong). They also thought, as one does, that German people were born out of ice. That the world was hollow (another stupid conspiracy has Hitler fleeing with the Thule Society to Hyperborea where they had built a tunnel and now secretly live underground...)...

Oh. And they also believed in Aliens. Tried to build weird magneticly powered flying saucers...




Not sure if that is what you meant...or if you meant about Nazi war criminals influencing latin america. Some are still actively searched there I think.


FYI...Thule clothing? Named after this idea of ultimate north civilisation indirectly.

So wouldn't in the end I'd still be Nazi's but with different symbols?

Well...no not really but yes but no..you would be similar but divergent on a few essential things:

1) No Final Solution
2) No Swashstikkas
3) No mass murder, world war, hmmm lots of things...

It's more sort of the platform from which Hitler and his goons jumped off into Nazism. Far more occultist than Nazi...

It was also biggest c. 1920 so that is half way between steel legion and dkok timewise right? Whilst the Nancies didn't exist then at least not in name (almost certainly in sentiment).

You could just say this is the Thule Society 40k...who built a space ship and founded a colony during the first nuclear war when they fled the hollow earth on a fleet of magnetised space craft.....so you get all the aryan occultish menance none of the direct nazism.



I may be completely wrong...to be honest I haven't read that much on this stuff...as interest in it is a little bit like hiring Mein Kampf from a library.

The_Savior wrote:I just asked the guys at the shop what they thought.

I even asked the two players with the highest seniority, and one is in the Navy.

I was told that they thought it'd be nice, one said he didn't mind it might offend people but no one around here.

The Navy guy thought it'd be nice to see, and he doesn't even see a problem with it, and actually supported it, because like he said, it's my army you DO what you WANT. Also he said a guy back in Seattle did it too, and everyone thought it was cool.

Also, another point, it's kind of hard for a Hispanic guy like me to put a Nazi army down and say I am the Master Race.

You live near Corpus Christi, I presume?

Seaward wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I just asked the guys at the shop what they thought.

I even asked the two players with the highest seniority, and one is in the Navy.

I was told that they thought it'd be nice, one said he didn't mind it might offend people but no one around here.

The Navy guy thought it'd be nice to see, and he doesn't even see a problem with it, and actually supported it, because like he said, it's my army you DO what you WANT. Also he said a guy back in Seattle did it too, and everyone thought it was cool.

Also, another point, it's kind of hard for a Hispanic guy like me to put a Nazi army down and say I am the Master Race.

You live near Corpus Christi, I presume?

Don't stalk me D:

The_Savior wrote:
Don't stalk me D:

It's the only logical place to find active duty Navy in Texas.

Seaward wrote:

The_Savior wrote:
Don't stalk me D:

It's the only logical place to find active duty Navy in Texas.

I would think there would be more.

But yes, I do live in that area, not Corpus, but in that area.

I think that a persons location is something which should be left to P.M.s if discussed at all. Especially when such a thing is seemingly irrelevant to the topic at hand. Some people prefer a bit of anonymity on the internet (go figure).

My personal opinion on Nazi guard is this:
A. "It's my army I do what I want!" Is kind of the strongest argument. If you're offended by Nazis you should probably avoid miniature and gaming stores, as some one might be playing axis vs allies. Does this make one of the players a bad person?

B. If the theme of racism is something which offends you, you probably picked up the wrong game when you purchased Warhammer. While race isn't the actual issue, species definitely is. The Imperium is especially proud of its hatred for those different than themselves. It's "Suffer not the Xenos to live" to space marines and most guard, not "Give those who look different a big cuddly hug." It's Xenophobia at its finest.

C. As a reference to A, it's a game. I'd hate to think that my friend's parents would despise them for playing Call of Duty: Modern Warfare online every time they played as a terrorist.

lucasbuffalo wrote:
My personal opinion on Nazi guard is this:
A. "It's my army I do what I want!" Is kind of the strongest argument. If you're offended by Nazis you should probably avoid miniature and gaming stores, as some one might be playing axis vs allies. Does this make one of the players a bad person?

There's quite a difference between playing a historical game that includes Nazis for realism purposes and purposefully injecting Nazis into a game that has absolutely no basis for having them involved. Your argument is like saying, "If someone wants to use a mini Hitler instead of the tophat when playing Monopoly, that's fine, because other games deal with Nazis!" It's specious at best. Where this...

B. If the theme of racism is something which offends you, you probably picked up the wrong game when you purchased Warhammer. While race isn't the actual issue, species definitely is. The Imperium is especially proud of its hatred for those different than themselves. It's "Suffer not the Xenos to live" to space marines and most guard, not "Give those who look different a big cuddly hug." It's Xenophobia at its finest.

...is one of the most fatuous things I've ever read. I'm fine with a fictional futuristic space empire being mean to fictional futuristic space aliens, so I have to be fine with Nazis? You may want to rethink that one. A lot.

As far as Modern Warfare goes? I addressed this earlier in the thread when I referenced Medal of Honor. Modern Warfare uses fictional terrorists with obvious allusions to real ones - and yeah, some people did and still do have issues with that. Medal of Honor? It used actual Taliban fighters in its multiplayer. I say it used, because there was enough of a public backlash to convince EA that maybe that wasn't such a good idea, and they've since changed it.

Apropos nothing, I'd be fascinated to see a demographic breakdown of Dakkaites for and against Nazi Guard. I have my theories, but either way, it'd be interesting.

I agree with Seaward (somewhat). OP you should put up a poll, and see what dakka thinks.

Seaward wrote:

Stormrider wrote:Oh boy, the self riteous are out en masse! It's a symbol, get over it already.

Symbols have meaning. That's what makes them powerful. That's why they're used. Hell, that's why a lot of the are trademarked. If I showed up with an army covered in Christian crosses, or the Star of David, or even rainbow flags, would you assume that I did it because I thought those symbols looked cool, or because I had some connection to the ideologies they represented?

Agreed, Symbols are powerful.

This topic has come up several times before on Dakkadakka, including one guy who did go ahead and paint his SM army with a bunch of strongly Nazi like imagery. His technique was awesome but he got haeted on by a lot of members, particularly because he kept insisting it was merely a "Nordic inspired" paint scheme.

The verdict is the same every time.

Field grey colour scheme, cool.

Nazi or quasi-Nazi symbols, not cool.

It's your army so do it if you want. Just be aware that it is going to cause trouble.

It may well be that only the self righteous would take offence. Even so, It. Is. Going. To. Cause. Trouble.

Seaward wrote:
There's quite a difference between playing a historical game that includes Nazis for realism purposes and purposefully injecting Nazis into a game that has absolutely no basis for having them involved. Your argument is like saying, "If someone wants to use a mini Hitler instead of the tophat when playing Monopoly, that's fine, because other games deal with Nazis!" It's specious at best. Where this...

I think for some one who wants to complain about fatuous arguments, this one is pretty incredible.
I'd say that there's a massive difference between the family game night game of monopoly and a game based on the warring of rival armies slaying each other at every possible opportunity. Hell, Space Wolves lore states that if their children don't grasp the handle of an axe upon birth then they are tossed out into the cold to die or be eaten by wild animals. I don't recall child murder or death and carnage being parts of the game of monopoly either.

Seaward wrote:...is one of the most fatuous things I've ever read. I'm fine with a fictional futuristic space empire being mean to fictional futuristic space aliens, so I have to be fine with Nazis? You may want to rethink that one. A lot.

You don't have to be fine with Nazis, just as you don't have to be fine with the concept of a future full of murder, demons, and strife incarnate strewn throughout all of existence.

Seaward wrote:As far as Modern Warfare goes? I addressed this earlier in the thread when I referenced Medal of Honor. Modern Warfare uses fictional terrorists with obvious allusions to real ones - and yeah, some people did and still do have issues with that. Medal of Honor? It used actual Taliban fighters in its multiplayer. I say it used, because there was enough of a public backlash to convince EA that maybe that wasn't such a good idea, and they've since changed it.

This is spot on with my point. Regardless of how accurate something may be in the lore, or in this case in reality, you'll always find some one to complain about it. The fact is, Imperial Guard follow a strict mandate of kill all who oppose their empire and don't spare anyone who isn't a part of it. The theme is obviously relevant, and regardless of how much you may dislike it, the theme isn't a "crazy stretch". As it's already been shown in this thread, their is already a sect of imperial guard which are a couple symbols short of being WW2 Nazi soldiers. A Nazi styled army isn't a far stretch at all, so unless your opponent is playing the army for the point of being offensive, I don't think you'd have much to complain about, as I said before, I play Space Wolves but murdering newborn babies doesn't represent something I support. I don't think my marine friend who has a wife and kid and plays chaos is actually a demon worshiper. Making a unique twist on an army (or in this case, slapping a symbol on something that is already the actual picture of the army in debate) doesn't mean that's the person you are or wish to be. It's an army in a game, just like any other game.

Of course, you don't have to play with any opponent. If bright pink hello kitty sisters of battle offend you because they destroy the lore, you can just avoid them, no problem. But please, don't use a company changing its "controversial" theme to show that a person should follow lead. EA didn't think they were in the wrong, they just didn't want bad press, because unlike an individual player in their local gaming store with a small group of people, they aren't a company that has to worry about sales.

The_Savior wrote:
But I do like the reverse swastika, I know what it stands for and it'd be nice to show people what's up.

So why not do a native American themed IG force?

Far more original then Nazi IG; which frankly has been done to death and always comes across as either a cry for attention or a juvenile attempt to be "shocking".

lucasbuffalo wrote:
I think for some one who wants to complain about fatuous arguments, this one is pretty incredible.
I'd say that there's a massive difference between the family game night game of monopoly and a game based on the warring of rival armies slaying each other at every possible opportunity. Hell, Space Wolves lore states that if their children don't grasp the handle of an axe upon birth then they are tossed out into the cold to die or be eaten by wild animals. I don't recall child murder or death and carnage being parts of the game of monopoly either.

Not at all. Nazis simply aren't present in Warhammer 40K, a game that is, like it or not, designed by the designers' own admission to appeal to twelve year-olds. You used the example of Axis and Allies, which is another kids' game - or at least it was in our house, and incidentally used the Iron Cross rather than the swastika, anyway - to justify the inclusion of Nazis...seemingly everywhere? Why would you have a problem with injecting them into Monopoly? Or Clue? They have just as much reason to be there as they do in 40K - none.

You don't have to be fine with Nazis, just as you don't have to be fine with the concept of a future full of murder, demons, and strife incarnate strewn throughout all of existence.

You're aware that one's entirely fictional and the other is quite verifiable as actually having existed in reality, correct? Do you not see a difference?

Seaward wrote:As far as Modern Warfare goes? I addressed this earlier in the thread when I referenced Medal of Honor. Modern Warfare uses fictional terrorists with obvious allusions to real ones - and yeah, some people did and still do have issues with that. Medal of Honor? It used actual Taliban fighters in its multiplayer. I say it used, because there was enough of a public backlash to convince EA that maybe that wasn't such a good idea, and they've since changed it.

A Nazi styled army isn't a far stretch at all, so unless your opponent is playing the army for the point of being offensive, I don't think you'd have much to complain about, as I said before, I play Space Wolves but murdering newborn babies doesn't represent something I support. I don't think my marine friend who has a wife and kid and plays chaos is actually a demon worshiper. Making a unique twist on an army (or in this case, slapping a symbol on something that is already the actual picture of the army in debate) doesn't mean that's the person you are or wish to be. It's an army in a game, just like any other game.

We've already covered that the DKoK don't actually resemble World War II German infantry, so that point falls more than a little flat.

Let's put this into perspective. What if somebody thought white hoods and burning crosses was a cool look? By your logic, you'd defend a Klan Guard regiment 'cause, you know, that doesn't necessarily represent the person's ideals, right?

I think a good traitor guard would be nice to see. Follow the guard codex of course, but make them look demonic. Maybe use some kit mashing with Chaos demons and CSM vehicles.
I know these already exist, but I have yet to see one in person.

Have a friend at my FLGS who has a massive IG "nazi" force complete with converted Hitler commander that plays all xenos players in the store every chance he gets and has lost only 2 times out of at least 30-35 battles.

He has had 2 people challenge him on his army scheme (they have no swastikas only imperial symbols) but you can tell they are meant to be Nazis. Both times he out talked them and out witted them by presenting his elaborate 12 page fluff explanation.

The look on those peoples faces when he put things into prospective was hilarious.

ohh god not another one of these threads. Like kilkracy said its your army paint it how you wish.

Unless the other players in your group were the ones that paid for your models AND paint then they shouldnt have any say and you shouldnt have to ask. Ohh i take that back ask the store manager if he would allow you to use it in the store. He has a say only because he could ask you not to use that army in HIS store.

But honestly i only see this thread more like trolling then a legit question. I say this because a bunch of self righteous people are going to respond no dont its innapropriote, then the other half are going to say no do what you want. Then the most annoying ones are going to pop up with historical information trying to sound like they know the FACTS. But i truly apologise if the OP truly wanted advice. Its just that this questiion ALWAYS shows up every couple months

Why does everyone get so high stung about the swastika? The swastika isn't the " Nazi Emblem " it more or less means " Good Luck ", the Nazis didn't just make an emblem out of the blue, hell, Hindu's used to before the Nazis

LordTyphus wrote:Why does everyone get so high stung about the swastika? The swastika isn't the " Nazi Emblem " it more or less means " Good Luck ", the Nazis didn't just make an emblem out of the blue, hell, Hindu's used to before the Nazis

Do a Google image search for "Nazi".

We all know what it meant before the Nazis appropriated it. But to say that the swastika and the Nazis have no connection is one of the more hilariously ignorant arguments made in this thread so far.

I think if you focused more on the occultism, like the guy mentioned with the Thule Society, it would be far more interesting. Doesn't even have to be nazi occultism, just generic WW2-esque occultism.

Any reason to include Cthullu in anything is fine by me.

I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

if nazis look cool i tuly feel sorry for you.
saying they look sharp i could , in a twisted sense of the word understand.
but cool...i think you have much to see and much to learn. try your ideas in the real world in some places who have sufferd from your so cool nazis. you might be in for a true treat...

vik

Viktor von Domm wrote:if nazis look cool i tuly feel sorry for you.
saying they look sharp i could , in a twisted sense of the word understand.
but cool...i think you have much to see and much to learn. try your ideas in the real world in some places who have sufferd from your so cool nazis. you might be in for a true treat...

vik

That's like saying do I feel sorry for the Mexican army when they killed everyone at the Alamo?

Or the Spaniards for slaughtering the Aztecs and bring them diseases?

Or the Native Americans, when they attacked and maimed settles?

I have descent from all of these being a Hispanic, but do you see complaining about games/media that involve this? No.

I see you're German, or at least the flag shows you're in Germany.
That's fine if you don't like it, you won't ever see it. Also I don't have the models yet, I'm asking to public how they feel about it.
Has it been does yes, and it does get mixed views.

But don't you dare, try and tell me how I should feel for others, based on my own beliefs and principles, just because you don't agree with them.

If you or anyone wants to talk to me on a more personal level take it to PM and out of the thread.

lucasbuffalo wrote:

Seaward wrote:
There's quite a difference between playing a historical game that includes Nazis for realism purposes and purposefully injecting Nazis into a game that has absolutely no basis for having them involved. Your argument is like saying, "If someone wants to use a mini Hitler instead of the tophat when playing Monopoly, that's fine, because other games deal with Nazis!" It's specious at best. Where this...

I think for some one who wants to complain about fatuous arguments, this one is pretty incredible.
I'd say that there's a massive difference between the family game night game of monopoly and a game based on the warring of rival armies slaying each other at every possible opportunity. Hell, Space Wolves lore states that if their children don't grasp the handle of an axe upon birth then they are tossed out into the cold to die or be eaten by wild animals. I don't recall child murder or death and carnage being parts of the game of monopoly either.

Seaward wrote:...is one of the most fatuous things I've ever read. I'm fine with a fictional futuristic space empire being mean to fictional futuristic space aliens, so I have to be fine with Nazis? You may want to rethink that one. A lot.

You don't have to be fine with Nazis, just as you don't have to be fine with the concept of a future full of murder, demons, and strife incarnate strewn throughout all of existence.

Seaward wrote:As far as Modern Warfare goes? I addressed this earlier in the thread when I referenced Medal of Honor. Modern Warfare uses fictional terrorists with obvious allusions to real ones - and yeah, some people did and still do have issues with that. Medal of Honor? It used actual Taliban fighters in its multiplayer. I say it used, because there was enough of a public backlash to convince EA that maybe that wasn't such a good idea, and they've since changed it.

This is spot on with my point. Regardless of how accurate something may be in the lore, or in this case in reality, you'll always find some one to complain about it. The fact is, Imperial Guard follow a strict mandate of kill all who oppose their empire and don't spare anyone who isn't a part of it. The theme is obviously relevant, and regardless of how much you may dislike it, the theme isn't a "crazy stretch". As it's already been shown in this thread, their is already a sect of imperial guard which are a couple symbols short of being WW2 Nazi soldiers. A Nazi styled army isn't a far stretch at all, so unless your opponent is playing the army for the point of being offensive, I don't think you'd have much to complain about, as I said before, I play Space Wolves but murdering newborn babies doesn't represent something I support. I don't think my marine friend who has a wife and kid and plays chaos is actually a demon worshiper. Making a unique twist on an army (or in this case, slapping a symbol on something that is already the actual picture of the army in debate) doesn't mean that's the person you are or wish to be. It's an army in a game, just like any other game.

Of course, you don't have to play with any opponent. If bright pink hello kitty sisters of battle offend you because they destroy the lore, you can just avoid them, no problem. But please, don't use a company changing its "controversial" theme to show that a person should follow lead. EA didn't think they were in the wrong, they just didn't want bad press, because unlike an individual player in their local gaming store with a small group of people, they aren't a company that has to worry about sales.

Oh my God. Do you understand that Nazis are real? What they did was real.

Don't even try to compare anything in warhammer with Nazis because no matter what they come up with it doesn't matter because Warhammer isn't real.

and i do dare. i think that some ideas are not good for thinking through. i think you will learn. every learning process is hard. your will be obiosly be abit harder. as you dont understand easyly. and notz only am i german but i have in my family line some poor fellas how have just in time been recued from there very terminal last shower. and if you don´t understand that to consult your history books. they might give you an insight or maybe not.

vik

The_Savior wrote:

Viktor von Domm wrote:if nazis look cool i tuly feel sorry for you.
saying they look sharp i could , in a twisted sense of the word understand.
but cool...i think you have much to see and much to learn. try your ideas in the real world in some places who have sufferd from your so cool nazis. you might be in for a true treat...

vik

That's like saying do I feel sorry for the Mexican army when they killed everyone at the Alamo?

Or the Spaniards for slaughtering the Aztecs and bring them diseases?

Or the Native Americans, when they attacked and maimed settles?

I have descent from all of these being a Hispanic, but do you see complaining about games/media that involve this? No.

I see you're German, or at least the flag shows you're in Germany.
That's fine if you don't like it, you won't ever see it. Also I don't have the models yet, I'm asking to public how they feel about it.
Has it been does yes, and it does get mixed views.

But don't you dare, try and tell me how I should feel for others, based on my own beliefs and principles, just because you don't agree with them.

If you or anyone wants to talk to me on a more personal level take it to PM and out of the thread.

If you paint your army with swastikas on it it's like wearing a T-Shirt that says "I hate Jews". You are fully in your right to wear that T-Shirt. You may even tell me that its not what the shirt says that you like, you just like the colour. Maybe you even believe that. The point is you're going out with a T-Shirt that says "I hate Jews" just be aware of it.

nice analogy

reminds me of the die harder sequence where bruce willis wears that i hate [see forum posting rules] sandwichboard. nice reactions of the crowd he got wearing that...

vik


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry i just wanted to quote something wont happen again...

Viktor von Domm wrote:and i do dare. i think that some ideas are not good for thinking through. i think you will learn. every learning process is hard. your will be obiosly be abit harder. as you dont understand easyly. and notz only am i german but i have in my family line some poor fellas how have just in time been recued from there very terminal last shower. and if you don´t understand that to consult your history books. they might give you an insight or maybe not.

vik

You're telling me to understand what choice I am making.

Yet I'm telling you I like the look, not their cause.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Viktor von Domm wrote:if nazis look cool i tuly feel sorry for you.
saying they look sharp i could , in a twisted sense of the word understand.
but cool...i think you have much to see and much to learn. try your ideas in the real world in some places who have sufferd from your so cool nazis. you might be in for a true treat...

vik

That's like saying do I feel sorry for the Mexican army when they killed everyone at the Alamo?

Or the Spaniards for slaughtering the Aztecs and bring them diseases?

Or the Native Americans, when they attacked and maimed settles?

I have descent from all of these being a Hispanic, but do you see complaining about games/media that involve this? No.

I see you're German, or at least the flag shows you're in Germany.
That's fine if you don't like it, you won't ever see it. Also I don't have the models yet, I'm asking to public how they feel about it.
Has it been does yes, and it does get mixed views.

But don't you dare, try and tell me how I should feel for others, based on my own beliefs and principles, just because you don't agree with them.

If you or anyone wants to talk to me on a more personal level take it to PM and out of the thread.

If you paint your army with swastikas on it it's like wearing a T-Shirt that says "I hate Jews". You are fully in your right to wear that T-Shirt. You may even tell me that its not what the shirt says that you like, you just like the colour. Maybe you even believe that. The point is you're going out with a T-Shirt that says "I hate Jews" just be aware of it.

I don't hate Jews. But I know what you're saying.

maybe it´s a language problem here but by your last post i couldnt understand your position...

what should your "spoiler" (which sound highly like something made up) achieve?

vik

why did you use spoilers on historical fact? (questionable accuracy though it may be).

Once again, that WW2 thing was real y'know.

Viktor von Domm wrote:maybe it´s a language problem here but by your last post i couldnt understand your position...

what should your "spoiler" (which sound highly like something made up) achieve?

vik

Unless you know exactly everything that happened, don't act like you do.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:why did you use spoilers on historical fact? (questionable accuracy though it may be).

Once again, that WW2 thing was real y'know.

Also, the historical thing is off-topic is why.

I know this real, what are you trying to get at that with me?

This is about me painting.

Personally, I'd advise against it, even if I would probably actually pick them up and say 'That's bloody awesome' and admire the paint job/theme if done properly. (No, I'm not a Nazi-supporter, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a well painted and interestingly themed army)

As was said earlier in the thread. If you have to defend your scheme to someone (And there would be alot of someones with this scheme), it'll lose alot of it's flair.

I always thought Death Korps were more a combination of Nazis and WW2 Russians to be honest anyway, so combine the two army themes, maybe use German colors with Russian battle markings or something, and there you go.

i know it may sound a bit i am mightier than you, but i am pretty sure i know lots more about the true things from that period than you by a long shot. and this comes not from reading suspicious websites but talking with people from different positions during that timeline.
truly i think you are young in years and that counts to your errors and gives hope for betterment.
although this hope gets ever so often destroyed by factblindness...

vik

sigh. The spoiler function is only for works of fiction. You can't spoil historical fact for someone.

look dude, I hope I'm getting through to you but basically you should paint you DKoK in dark and drab colours (black, grey, brown etc). I would be offended if you didn't because they are wicked models that are supposed to be dark and dirty looking.

However, painting swastikas on them, is at best, extremely tacky and at worst, declaring yourself a Nazi.

or final option being someone that stood right behind a think wall when inteligence was handed out...

Try for the Galactic Empire approach, i.e. make them Nazi-like without actually being Nazis. That worked great for Star Wars, we got us a load of iconic bad guys without making them obviously Nazis. Subtle can be just as cool as overt, if it's done right.
Hope that helped.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Try for the Galactic Empire approach, i.e. make them Nazi-like without actually being Nazis. That worked great for Star Wars, we got us a load of iconic bad guys without making them obviously Nazis. Subtle can be just as cool as overt, if it's done right.
Hope that helped.

I like that idea.


@ Domm and Kamikazie
Yeah, a brown skinned Nazi, makes sense.

The_Savior wrote:
Unless you know exactly everything that happened, don't act like you do.

Nor should you act as though there's still a lot of mystery surrounding the Third Reich and its motivations. Believe it or not, documentation a mere seventy years ago was still pretty thorough.

racism is only skin deep...
the color of ones skin isn´t important.
color, religion or sexual likes and dislikes, for beeing a nazi only hate is nneded for recruitment ...

vik

The_Savior wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Try for the Galactic Empire approach, i.e. make them Nazi-like without actually being Nazis. That worked great for Star Wars, we got us a load of iconic bad guys without making them obviously Nazis. Subtle can be just as cool as overt, if it's done right.
Hope that helped.

I like that idea.


@ Domm and Kamikazie
Yeah, a brown skinned Nazi, makes sense.

What? I don't even know what your refering to?

me neither...

Viktor von Domm wrote:me neither...

Dude, we tried. His listed age says 19 I hope to god that's a lie and he's 12. Only explanation.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Viktor von Domm wrote:me neither...

Dude, we tried. His listed age says 19 I hope to god that's a lie and he's 12. Only explanation.

I'm talking about you saying I'm a Nazi.

Stop getting worked up about this, all I ever see here on Dakka is...

You're tool, idiot, child, racists, blah.

Everyone wants to be the hero, and point fingers.

Sorry, that I voice an idea and ask for opinions. But now it turns into a slander fest, based upon my character.

i wish you all the luck in the world to grow up. the world can be a little hard to people who don´t learn fast enough.
widom isn´t eraned easy... (not that i´m near that by a ong shot, mind you).

well this made my really sleepy, thanks for the support Kamikaze,

vik

The_Savior wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Viktor von Domm wrote:me neither...

Dude, we tried. His listed age says 19 I hope to god that's a lie and he's 12. Only explanation.

I'm talking about you saying I'm a Nazi.

Stop getting worked up about this, all I ever see here on Dakka is...

You're tool, idiot, child, racists, blah.

Everyone wants to be the hero, and point fingers.

Sorry, that I voice an idea and ask for opinions. But now it turns into a slander fest, based upon my character.

Oh is this bothering you? Well then painting swastikas on your toy soldiers is a great idea.

Viktor von Domm wrote:i wish you all the luck in the world to grow up. the world can be a little hard to people who don´t learn fast enough.
widom isn´t eraned easy... (not that i´m near that by a ong shot, mind you).

well this made my really sleepy, thanks for the support Kamikaze,

vik

Or it could be that I don't care what you think is offensive? We didn't rule that out. But goodnight Vik, thanks for your input and words of wisdom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Viktor von Domm wrote:me neither...

Dude, we tried. His listed age says 19 I hope to god that's a lie and he's 12. Only explanation.

I'm talking about you saying I'm a Nazi.

Stop getting worked up about this, all I ever see here on Dakka is...

You're tool, idiot, child, racists, blah.

Everyone wants to be the hero, and point fingers.

Sorry, that I voice an idea and ask for opinions. But now it turns into a slander fest, based upon my character.

Oh is this bothering you? Well then painting swastikas on your toy soldiers is a great idea.

No, it doesn't bother me, I think it's sad, that everyone wants to be the hero. No one wants to flamed, and everyone wants to be the pyro behind the work.

I do think it's a great idea to do it, because I want to do it. Doesn't mean I plan on saying I'm a Nazi.

If I was a Nazi, and truly hated Jews and the whole nine yards, you really think I would ask for peoples' opinions?

Viktor von Domm wrote:i wish you all the luck in the world to grow up. the world can be a little hard to people who don´t learn fast enough.
widom isn´t eraned easy... (not that i´m near that by a ong shot, mind you).

well this made my really sleepy, thanks for the support Kamikaze,

vik

Hopefully, your dreams won't be filled with goose stepping. btw, your screen name is sweet.

So, I guess we're done now.

Nazi is a bad idea to some.

I never called you a Nazi I said "However, painting swastikas on them, is at best, extremely tacky and at worst, declaring yourself a Nazi. "

In other words if you paint them like that I think you'll regret it in a few years....unless you are a neo-nazi. Then you'll enjoy them forever.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I never called you a Nazi I said "However, painting swastikas on them, is at best, extremely tacky and at worst, declaring yourself a Nazi. "

In other words if you paint them like that I think you'll regret it in a few years....unless you are a neo-nazi. Then you'll enjoy them forever.

I had an alternative, for the symbols. I thought of making the vehicles Iron Cross and if I had the time, just arm bands made of cloth for symbols.

So I could remove them if needed, or magnetized arms.

The_Savior wrote:
So, I guess we're done now.

Nazi is a bad idea to some.

Only to some?

I think you'll find that the numbers in support of it are a lot smaller than you think, and predominantly under the age of 20.

Seaward wrote:

The_Savior wrote:
So, I guess we're done now.

Nazi is a bad idea to some.

Only to some?

I think you'll find that the numbers in support of it are a lot smaller than you think, and predominantly under the age of 20.

Yeah... okay.

As far as I can tell there is no restriction on how you paint models you paid for.

Therefore if you have a creative idea, go with it.

People need to see this for what it really is, models that fit the theme, and a themed army. Tiny little plastic men. In costume. 40k isn't real, the tiny men aren't real, hell the battle isn't real.

This would be like me using tallarn imperial guard and saying it's al qaeda or something. Something I've thought about doing (damn the expensiveness of doing so!)

Use your rights in freedom of speech and expression, and do not fear doing so. So long as you aren't trying to convert people or anything infringing upon their rights, there is no problem.

Do it and be proud.


Paid for by the paint-yo-shiet how you want of America.

Well, I better go give all my Chaos demons top hats and monocles, as apparently my models representing something evil means that I myself am evil. I had no idea that a persons painting or army preference defined their personal character.
Guess it's time for me to invest into painting all my guys like super hero white knights, so that I can match the scheme of what every one here seems to support. Or Jersey Shore paint scheme to represent my desire to get laid.

Sure, Nazis are real. This is understood, but a FICTIONAL army based upon them is not. If we can handle the topics of child sacrifice etc. (Which, omg believe it or not IS SOMETHING that happened in many cultures historically) Then some one should have free reign to play as a different type of evil dickbag based upon another historical concept.
I'm not arguing that Nazis are good. I personally wouldn't use their color scheme for anything ever. But to say that a person's army is a direct representation of themselves or their character is a childish move used here by attempted internet superheroes.

juraigamer wrote:As far as I can tell there is no restriction on how you paint models you paid for.

Therefore if you have a creative idea, go with it.

People need to see this for what it really is, models that fit the theme, and a themed army. Tiny little plastic men. In costume. 40k isn't real, the tiny men aren't real, hell the battle isn't real.

This would be like me using tallarn imperial guard and saying it's al qaeda or something. Something I've thought about doing (damn the expensiveness of doing so!)

Use your rights in freedom of speech and expression, and do not fear doing so. So long as you aren't trying to convert people or anything infringing upon their rights, there is no problem.

Do it and be proud.


Paid for by the paint-yo-shiet how you want of America.

Thanks.

The difference is that to a lot of people, Nazi symbology is far more than just a symbol. They may have had parents, or family die at the Nazi's hands, and those symbols can easily remind them of that. There's a reason why the swastika is widely considered a hate symbol because, regardless of how it was originally intended, there is a LOT of meaning tied up in that symbol. There will be people who will be offended by it. It's easy to say 'it's just a symbol' when you weren't directly affected by it, but like it or not symbols have power. That's why they're symbols.

Your free to paint your army however you damn well please, just be aware there will be consequences. If you're prepared to deal with those consequences, then go ahead.

WWII was 70 years ago, running to someone directly involved in it it's pretty small I would think. especially in a hobby store no less. Of course the symbol still means things to young people too, but I don't think anyone's going to have a PTSD flashback around your doodz.

@ Asimo Maybe in the US, but you forget - Europe, Africa and Asia is where fighting and killing actually took place


TO ANSWER THIS GUYS QUESTION: YES IT BLATANTLY IS A CONTROVERSIAL THEME AS I GOT INTO WORK THIS MORNING AND HAD 50 EMAILS FROM THIS TOPIC!!

You will get this every time you play. I would suggest Thule Society, and doing for some people to do some reading. Spanish didn't intentionally disease Indiginous Americans (British did to Native North), the Alamo was originally Spanish/Mexican, and generally speaking it was a given for most of the last two thousand years if you hold out in a siege and you lose...you all get killed. Read Chief Joseph...to learn about Native Americans.

Anyway...unsubscribing...

asimo77 wrote:WWII was 70 years ago, running to someone directly involved in it it's pretty small I would think. especially in a hobby store no less. Of course the symbol still means things to young people too, but I don't think anyone's going to have a PTSD flashback around your doodz.

'
Less someone directly involved, more someone who lost family, or grew up hearing stories about how much pain their grandparents went through and that kind of stuff. Not to mention, some Jewish people may find it offensive as is.

This is one situation where it's reasonable to be politically correct. The swastika and other symbols of Nazism still carry a hell of a lot of weight. Even if you aren't labeled as a Nazi sympathizer, you will get a lot of people who'll think your a dbag for just doing it.

lucasbuffalo wrote:But to say that a person's army is a direct representation of themselves or their character is a childish move used here by attempted internet superheroes.

I don't think anyone's said that it is. I know that I've said people will assume it is. I would assume it was, if some dude were to talk into a store and plop down a 40K themed army painted like Nazis. I'd think the same if someone threw down a 40K army painted like the Klan. I'm pretty sure that the average person would think the same about someone needlessly choosing a theme that's so controversial.

You're more than welcome to hold the opinion that slapping things with Nazi iconography is no big deal, just as I'm more than welcome to be glad I don't game with you.


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asimo77 wrote:WWII was 70 years ago, running to someone directly involved in it it's pretty small I would think. especially in a hobby store no less. Of course the symbol still means things to young people too, but I don't think anyone's going to have a PTSD flashback around your doodz.

Depends. I'm good friends with a guy whose grandfather was killed at Sobibor. Would he have a "PTSD flashback"? No. Would he take issue with it? Yes.

Would you be as confident supporting it in person as you are on the internet if faced with such an individual? I highly doubt it.

I think the general uniform colours and, if you're good at modeling, especially the helmet type would be okay.

However, I'd recommend stopping at the armbands. Clothes, helmet and weapons are just tools and equipment that were incidentally made by Nazi Germany and worn by the Wehrmacht. The armbands though...they are a symbol of Nazism and have no other use than showing this to everyone. If you just want the look and not the ideology behind it, I would therefore refrain from armbands, swastikas and preferrably the SS runes, too.

On a personal note: If I'd see a Nazi IG army, complete with Swastikas, I'd wince instinctively. Yeah, it's only a game and it's fictional and all, but it would still just seem...wrong to me. The only way I think it's allright to use Nazi iconography is when making fun of them, ridiculing them for their madness to ease the pain of what they have done to the world. Again, here in America it's comparably "far away". But in Europe, it would definitely be different. Absolutely NO one in Germany in their right mind would show themselves with Nazi iconography or the Hitler salute (apart from the neo-nazi idiots, of course), because we know what is associated with it, what it stands for. And I guess the French, British, Polish and all other people there wouldn't be pleased on average, either.

Using these symbols on an army for a game...it's not ridiculing them, it's more of solidarizing with them. I wouldn't do it and I don't think using the symbols is a good idea. Uniform colours and armor styles I'm fine with, though.


Postscriptum: Maybe ask yourself what you would think about a very openly Taliban/Al Qaeda themed army. That's the next best thing I could come up with for a rather recent analogy of a fraction that attacked the USA. However, what those guys did is a drop in the ocean compared to Nazi Germany...

I suppose there are people who could have relatives involved and the like, though even in the super jewish community I live in very few people have any relation to WWII, but regardless that's a valid point, though you don't have to necessarily respect anyone's feelings (but you probably should in this case).

"Would you be as confident supporting it in person as you are on the internet if faced with such an individual? I highly doubt it. "

Well I suppose I would, this is a very peculiar situation though, and I'm not sure what context off the internet it would pop-up in. Unless of course it was in a hobby shop then I guess it would be pretty much the same conversation as here. If someone came up to me asked if someone was allowed to dress up as a nazi I'd have to, say yes. But it's not a good idea. It's the BEST idea.

the really distressing thing about the whole affair is that in countries as poland, russia or france and others who suffered greatly due to nazi terrorism now have lots of fools marching in dresses around that look strikingly familiar to your intended army. the is proves only one fact, that people tend to forget cruelties comited and idolize things so horrible that you can´t even understand it. if you build your army that way it is a brick in a giant wall constantly built by forces that try to make things like auschwitz look like a lie. these forces are always in high gear and wont stop. the only thing all of us is either ridicule them or to constantly battle against them and this is meant literaly!

one minor thing to add: making a choas army and then saying the person is insanly mad and evil is like saying that someone thats looking old cartoon movies where they hit others with frieingpans and such things will cause the same in rl.
choas armies are an abstract take on a major theme in live. good and evil. this goes not with supporting forces like the nazis. when you portrai them then you wave the flag in their behalf. wether you want to or not. you just support their cause in doing so.

vik

If you want to start an IG army, and either get arrested or killed, or maybe even both if thats what excites you. Then use the SS/Nazi symbols.

However if you dont want the wrath of the world to come down on you like the foot of a Titan, then I would avoid those insignia. Use the colours as they look awesome though!

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Viktor von Domm wrote:if nazis look cool i tuly feel sorry for you.
saying they look sharp i could , in a twisted sense of the word understand.
but cool...i think you have much to see and much to learn. try your ideas in the real world in some places who have sufferd from your so cool nazis. you might be in for a true treat...

vik

That's like saying do I feel sorry for the Mexican army when they killed everyone at the Alamo?

Or the Spaniards for slaughtering the Aztecs and bring them diseases?

Or the Native Americans, when they attacked and maimed settles?

I have descent from all of these being a Hispanic, but do you see complaining about games/media that involve this? No.

I see you're German, or at least the flag shows you're in Germany.
That's fine if you don't like it, you won't ever see it. Also I don't have the models yet, I'm asking to public how they feel about it.
Has it been does yes, and it does get mixed views.

But don't you dare, try and tell me how I should feel for others, based on my own beliefs and principles, just because you don't agree with them.

If you or anyone wants to talk to me on a more personal level take it to PM and out of the thread.

If you paint your army with swastikas on it it's like wearing a T-Shirt that says "I hate Jews". You are fully in your right to wear that T-Shirt. You may even tell me that its not what the shirt says that you like, you just like the colour. Maybe you even believe that. The point is you're going out with a T-Shirt that says "I hate Jews" just be aware of it.

Agreed, and don't be surprised when people react to that.

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

Nazi IG? No... God no...
Why don't you just get the colour scheme and style? DKK are made this way... But absolutely avoid nazi simbols...
Maybe the jewish player you meet at your next tournament would be rightly offended, and the same shoul be said also of non-jewish people.

But I have to give my experience...
I'm painting Nazi Orks
Yes... they are nazi orks, with nobz dressed like gestapo, and a stupid warboss dressed a la hermann goering.
They fight against lesser races to gain the vital space for the Grobwaaghland (aka Grosdeutchland)

They're orribly trash, The total idiocy of nazi ideology is well represented by the fact it is transposed in brutish green stupid aliens.
But I absolutely avoid true nazi symbols (I use the two X that have been the party symbol in Charlie chaplin's the great dictator)

punkow wrote:Nazi IG? No... God no...
Why don't you just get the colour scheme and style? DKK are made this way... But absolutely avoid nazi simbols...
Maybe the jewish player you meet at your next tournament would be rightly offended, and the same shoul be said also of non-jewish people.

But I have to give my experience...
I'm painting Nazi Orks
Yes... they are nazi orks, with nobz dressed like gestapo, and a stupid warboss dressed a la hermann goering.
They fight against lesser races to gain the vital space for the Grobwaaghland (aka Grosdeutchland)

They're orribly trash, The total idiocy of nazi ideology is well represented by the fact it is transposed in brutish green stupid aliens.
But I absolutely avoid true nazi symbols (I use the two X that have been the party symbol in Charlie chaplin's the great dictator)

Well if you used the Nazi stormboyz that'd look cool too.

Also I wouldn't use a Nazi symbol on Orks, I'd maybe make and Ork-esque Nazzy Symbol like bones or snakes not sure.

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

You have the right to freedom of speech. I have the right to point at you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

You have the right to freedom of speech. I have the right to point at you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

This is true.

But I'll ask you one thing... regardless that it may be offensive.

If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

The_Savior wrote:If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

Not going to answer for Fraz, however, if someone painted a GD quality army of fully converted, highly detailed Nazi IG I would quite possibly admire the work that went into it, and the techniques that were used. However, I would not think that it was any more a good idea to do or use than someone who had a black primed IG army with giant Nazi symbols painted all over it...

And as has been pointed out before, no matter how much work you put in and how good it looks, it still does not really have a place in 40K. The vast majority of people who have Nazi themed anything (outside of historical games etc) are, to my experience, likely to be young fools looking to get a reaction by shocking people at how "daring" they are being.

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

You have the right to freedom of speech. I have the right to point at you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

This is true.

But I'll ask you one thing... regardless that it may be offensive.

If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

Is it just greys or blacks-great
If its got little Nazi symbols on it I'd call them a pathetic human being and vermin not fit to waste oxygen. They're like little Neo Nazis except they are losers who play with toy soldiers and want to shock people. In essence they are a zit on the butt of life. I can take solace though in that their lives would be truly so pathetic as to almost engender sympathy. Not. Then I'd point and laugh and laugh and laugh.

SilverMK2 wrote:

The_Savior wrote:If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

Not going to answer for Fraz, however, if someone painted a GD quality army of fully converted, highly detailed Nazi IG I would quite possibly admire the work that went into it, and the techniques that were used. However, I would not think that it was any more a good idea to do or use than someone who had a black primed IG army with giant Nazi symbols painted all over it...

And as has been pointed out before, no matter how much work you put in and how good it looks, it still does not really have a place in 40K. The vast majority of people who have Nazi themed anything (outside of historical games etc) are, to my experience, likely to be young fools looking to get a reaction by shocking people at how "daring" they are being.

Or collectors, we can't forget about those people.

What's with this shock value thing? I'm pretty sure it isn't that shocking after the (insert number here) time.

Offensive? Yes. Quite as shocking? No.

But everyone has mixed opinions.

The intent is to shock. The effect is just to radiate LAME.

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The_Savior wrote:I say again I want them Nazi themed, because it looks cool.

As far as poll goes, what would be the appropriate question.

Yera if actually said it looked cool in person and people agreed with you, then thats a group who better be playing in a basement. Say it in the civilizzed world you'd get the ass kicking you deserved.

I already have said it... also you know it wouldn't be any different if I made a White Scars army and painted KKK symbols on them.
That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right? No Could someone still do it? Yes.

I like their colors, plain and simple, I figured I'd be realistic with the symbols, didn't say I'd actually do it.

But whatever... I don't care anymore.

You have the right to freedom of speech. I have the right to point at you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

This is true.

But I'll ask you one thing... regardless that it may be offensive.

If someone truly painted an amazing looking IG army that waz full on Nazi-theme.

Would you for at least a moment, say hey that looks nice, but I don't support what it represents?

Is it just greys or blacks-great
If its got little Nazi symbols on it I'd call them a pathetic human being and vermin not fit to waste oxygen. They're like little Neo Nazis except they are losers who play with toy soldiers and want to shock people. In essence they are a zit on the butt of life. I can take solace though in that their lives would be truly so pathetic as to almost engender sympathy. Not. Then I'd point and laugh and laugh and laugh.

So if I painted an army based off my culture, would it be wrong?

Or Chaos with pentagrams, ram's head, and etc?

I'm just saying this, if it's a person's belief, you have no right to judge them based on that since it'd be wrong of course.

That's why things like the KKK are still around.

That's freedom of Religion, Expression, and Speech right there. Is it right?...

i know it´s probably not intersiting enough to post but i post it anyway...

in germany the hitler gruß (raised flat hand) the swastica and donnerkeil (the two lightningsymbols) and other signs and gestures and also the heil hitler slogan will definatly get you into deserved trouble. chances are with an army like that, here in good ol`germany you will get trashed officialy by police and will get dragged before court. the media would make a sloughterfest of your army and would talk endlessly about maleducated youths and also would drag out the whole killergame speach...

even if all outcome wouldn´t be to my liking, the fact that you would never see your work of hours and hours of yours back again, cause of showing forbidden signs, would be a great satisfaction. i wouln´t boast or cheer around. but i would nod and smile inwardly to a job done good and right and that for one day justice would be served...

vik

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! man I sure see a lot of sensitive posts complaining about a Nazi symbol.
I would honestly think an army like that would be cool if I seen it on the table ITS A GAME! AND A THEMED ARMY its not like he is going to run around preaching hate.


I say go for it! don't hold back for the sake of sensitive people! they will always find something to be offended by no matter what you do!

I'm perfectly allowed to judge you once you've made your beliefs clear. Saying otherwise is like that French law which said that it's discrimination to selectively hire someone on the basis that they can actually do the job.

You're right. Painting Nazi symbols on IG...once I see that I can't judge you. However, once I ask you WTF is up with that, and you say: 'Oh. I just thought it looked cool.' Then I have just as much right to judge you as if you had said: 'I think they were totally awesome and had the right ideas.'

Edit: I personally would not be extremely offended. But I have friends who have lost relatives in the Nazi camps. They would be offended. Are they just being 'sensitive'? I'm perfectly alright with the colors. That's how DKoK are MEANT to look. Hell, I'd even be alright with the double lightning bolt, just because there isn't as much meaning tied to that symbol. It's just the swastika that we're taking specific trouble with.

So if I painted an army based off my culture, would it be wrong?
***Wait, so your culture is German Nazi 1934-1944...really?


Or Chaos with pentagrams, ram's head, and etc?
***Last I saw followers of Tzeentch didn't kill 25mm -50mm Slavs.

I'm just saying this, if it's a person's belief, you have no right to judge them based on that since it'd be wrong of course.
That's why things like the KKK are still around.
***The irony of someone talking about wanting to do little toy soldier Nazis indirectly accusing others of being Klansmen is ironical. Sorry thats more your shtick, not mine.

Fantasy minis are fantasy. Keep historical reality out of it. That is hard only to understand if someone is a loser, and has no life. Frankly, such people are why we shouldn't allow little Himmler to hang out in mom's basement too long. First they do little toy Nazis, then they start goosestepping, then they venture outside in the real world and get their asses kicked, then they retreat back into the basement. See? Its a vicious cycle.

Again, if you want to use German WWII camo schemes, uniform, and vehicle colors, GREAT! Have at it. But if you want to have little goose steppers with nazi arm bands etc. you have issues, serious issues.



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WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! man I sure see a lot of sensitive posts complaining about a Nazi symbol.
I would honestly think an army like that would be cool if I seen it on the table ITS A GAME! AND A THEMED ARMY its not like he is going to run around preaching hate.
****Its a FANTASY game. its not a historical recreation. Real imagery has no place there.

I say go for it! don't hold back for the sake of sensitive people! they will always find something to be offended by no matter what you do!
***You don't have a girlfriend, do you...