I'm not sure of the RAW interpretation of the "heroic intervention" of the Vanguard Veteran squads (codex:SM and Codex BA)

Thy cannot perform a heroic intervention if an IC had joined the squad. you decide before the rolling of scatter dice if the Vanguard perform an heroic intervention.... Now... What if the squad deploy next to a IC already on the table at the start of the turn? The IC should join the squad ... can the vets assault with him?
Normally it's not important... we assume that vanguard an IC assault separately and then the IC can join the squad... or something similar... But what if the IC confers a special rule to the vets? for exemple a Librarian with force dome or a chaplain allowing them to reroll failed "to hit".

What do you think about this? Do you knw if there is any FAQ about this situation? (I didn't find but maybe I didn't search in the right place)

Thank very much in advance!

Well the rule clearly says that:
"The ability cannot be used if an independant character has joined the Vanguard Veteran squad"

So I would assume that no; they could not assualt with the IC if it joins them since they just arrived from deepstrike and the IC cancels the rule out.

It's clearly stated, but when do you actually use the rule? Is it when you declare the Intervention (before deepstriking) meaning you can't DS with an attached IC? Or does "use" extend to the assault that you couldn't otherwise do?

My first sensation was the same as Kaine... but in reality it's not clearly stated because the use of the heroic intervetion actually intervenes before the deployment of the unit...

I'd like also to explain the reason I would like to know the exact interpretation.

:I drop pod a tactical with a chaplain inside

: while the tactical reach an objective, the chaplain leaves it and join the vanguard that do not scatter thanks to the locator beacon of the drop pod

: The Chaplain leads the Vanguards in the assault phase to counter any unit wishing to get close to the objective

Thanks very much guys!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And... in addition, I simply think that the intention of the GDs was to avoid that vanguard heroicly intervene with an attached IC ...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be broken... but this tactic could be quite interesting... and I also think it's pretty fluff-wise... The commander asking desperate help in the form of mighty bulky marines... But I'm not tryng to justify a rule interpretation by saying it's fluffwise... I'm just saying it would be cool!

No. Just no.

HI allows for Vanguard Vets to assault after Deep Striking. It isn't the act of Deep Striking the rule prevents the IC from doing since he can legally do that. It is the allowance of assaulting after Deep Striking that the IC is prevented from doing. So when you join the IC, the VGV cannot now HI, which is assaulting after deep striking.

Yes Ramses... but in this case the IC is not deepstriking...

maybe I confused you explaining my tactic... The drop pod arrives on the table in a round prior to the arrival of the vanguard (hopefully the drop pod in turn 1 and the vanguard in turn 2)

punkow wrote:Yes Ramses... but in this case the IC is not deepstriking...

maybe I confused you explaining my tactic... The drop pod arrives on the table in a round prior to the arrival of the vanguard (hopefully the drop pod in turn 1 and the vanguard in turn 2)

Yea I got you there. But the point of the rule is that it allows the VGV to assault after deep striking. This is lost when joined by an IC. They just revert back to a unit that has deep struck and normal rules prohibiting assaulting after deep striking apply.

uhmmm you have a point too... We should be in the head of Matthew Ward to know what is the exact purpose of tyhe rule... Anyway, I won't use this tactic in tournaments... I see It's a little too controversial... Maybe a house rule for friendly plays...

punkow wrote:uhmmm you have a point too... We should be in the head of Matthew Ward to know what is the exact purpose of tyhe rule... Anyway, I won't use this tactic in tournaments... I see It's a little too controversial... Maybe a house rule for friendly plays...

What does Heroic Intervention do?

Allows a unit to assault after deep striking.

A unit cannot perform a Heroic Intervention if joined by an IC

Ergo, a unit cannot assault after deep striking if joined by an IC.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I dont think you can. Would be cool if you could thought.

mmmh... I understand... my question came from the fact that according to RAW you choose to perform the heroic intervention before the deepstriking... and what if the chaplain couldn't reach assault distance without staying within 2" from the Vanguard arrived in that moment?
He cannot move there so he cannot assault? It seems absurd to me!
I'm not saying I'm right... I just say that it doesn't seem so straightforward to me...

I'd be open to letting an IC that stood where the squad landed join without interfering with the Intervention, as long as the IC isn't otherwise forbidden from assaulting. After all, what could be more Heroic than joining your HQ in assaulting the enemies of the Emperor?

But by the letter of the rule it's probably not meant to be.

Here is how I would play it based on my interpretation of the HI rule - if an IC joins the squad after they deepstrike onto the table they lose the special rule. To me this one is black and white. I'll just leave it at that.

I would say it's allowable, because as was stated, Heroic Intervention is used before the deep strike actually takes place. I think the main reason they forbade this is to prevent Dante from joining, not scattering, and then assaulting without any possibility of mishap. I would probably say that the IC can't move any further, and couldn't shoot because he is now part of the HI squad.

The rule for HI existed prior to the new BA codex. So no it was not written with him in mind.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The rule for HI existed prior to the new BA codex. So no it was not written with him in mind.

But as it's in the new codex, it obviously was written with a scenario similar to Dante's in mind. Either way, it doesn't matter as the squad doesn't have an IC until after the heroic intervention is used.

Except heroic intervention must still be "active" in order to allow them to assault. If you join an IC to the unit HI is cancelled, preventing them from assaulting as they are now a plain old just-arrived-from-DS unit.

Exactly, if an IC joins the squad HI is lost. It's very clear.

Actually this situation happened a few weeks ago on our local monthly club game. A Vanguard Squad performed Deep Strike first, scattered a few inches but arrived safely. Next an unattached IC ( Chaplain ) dropped form the sky, aiming a safe distance from the squad. Unfortunately he rolled a really bad scatter, narrowly avoiding a Mishap, ending next to the squad. End result: the IC joined the Vanguards, who now were unable to assault the CSM squad standing stunned a few inches away . Hilarity ensued.

At the risk of losing an IC like a chaplain,would a multi assault work ? The VGV DS to do an intervention,assault and the chaplain then assaults by himself.Hopefully the VGV will cause enough casualties so that the risk to the chaplain is minimal and he will not be killed in the retaliation.

A-P wrote: Actually this situation happened a few weeks ago on our local monthly club game. A Vanguard Squad performed Deep Strike first, scattered a few inches but arrived safely. Next an unattached IC ( Chaplain ) dropped form the sky, aiming a safe distance from the squad. Unfortunately he rolled a really bad scatter, narrowly avoiding a Mishap, ending next to the squad. End result: the IC joined the Vanguards, who now were unable to assault the CSM squad standing stunned a few inches away . Hilarity ensued.

That is quite humorous and unfortunate for that blood angels player. In that case, the squad could not assault as not all members of the squad would be able to assault that turn. The IC couldn't leave either, as the IC rules say that they can't leave the squad in the shooting or assault phase.

However, heroic intervention states that it is used before deep-striking takes place. Here's the logic chain:
1) Declare deep-strike and Heroic Intervention
2) Check if ICs are attached; nope none attached when declaring.
3) Heroic intervention is now in effect. The unit can assault after deepstrike, but can no longer shoot.
4) IC (not deep-striking) Joins the squad. HI does not say to remove the assault.
5) HI works as intended and the now IC led squad can assault. However; since the unit as a whole can not shoot, neither can the IC

If you think about it logically, the real reason they disallowed ICs from using HI, is that the ICs themselves don't have it in their profile. GW is essentially saying that the HI ability does not get conferred to ICs and since the whole squad is limited by it's most restricted member (in terms of movement/assault), it can't be used. It's just like all the USRs that don't get conferred to the whole squad just because one member has them.

No if an IC joins the squad they cannot assault from deepstrike. The rules are very clear. The intent is also very clear. If they intended for it to work with an IC the rules would said so.

Did the IC deep strike also? If not, just make sure to move it out of coherency before the end of the movement phase. That is when an IC joins/leaves a unit. Since DS'ing occurs at the start of the movement phase, an IC already on the table should have that option to still move.

Homer

2 bits:

1) I support that the Intent of the Rules are Clear(No Heroic intervention when an IC deepstrikes with the squad); But the (poorly) Written rules are also Clear No ICs with the squad at all for HI to actually work. Now the Rules are not written at all to take into account an IC joining the squad after they Deepstrike, but the line about no HI with attached ICs is an independent sentence and thus all encompassing: so sorry no HI with an IC ever.

2) So long as you have you IC > than 2"(as in 2.001" away from your Vanguards, he is not attached and can assault the same squad they are independently. You do not have to worry about said IC getting Shot at, the IC fights as his own unit in assault, and now the IC is capable of shooting before the assault(assuming the IC has an assault-type ranged weapon).

Rephistorch - except HI STILL needs to be in effect when you are in the assault phase - as this is when you check for the condition "unit arrived from deepstrike?" being fulfilled. HI is negated once an IC is attached, even after deepstrike, as it gives no time limit. So when you get to assault you have no permission to make an assault move.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:No if an IC joins the squad they cannot assault from deepstrike. The rules are very clear. The intent is also very clear. If they intended for it to work with an IC the rules would said so.

Not quite. "This ability can not be used if an IC has joined their squad."

When is the ability used? Before deep-striking.
Does the squad have an attached IC before deep-striking? No.
The unit uses the power, and it lets them assault in the assault phase, but not shoot in the shooting phase.

The rule does not say, "The unit may not assault if an IC has joined their squad.", It says that the ability can not be used. Since the ability has already been used, the squad can be joined by an IC after the unit has arrived, and the power is still in affect. No where does it say, "This power stops being in affect after an IC joins the squad". Again, it only limits it's use, and the use occurs before the squad is joined.

Assaulting is not "using" heroic intervention. Heroic intervention, after being used (before deepstriking), allows assaulting.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:No if an IC joins the squad they cannot assault from deepstrike. The rules are very clear. The intent is also very clear. If they intended for it to work with an IC the rules would said so.

I wouldn't say the intent is clear in that regard. The phrase was added in clearly because they didn't want you using Dante to deepstrike with Vanguard Vets, not scatter at all, and then assault. That would be broken.

If two seperate squads deepstrike seperately, and an IC somehow finds himself in 2" coherency of another squad without mishapping, I'd let you do it out of astonishment. That should basically never happen without at least one mishap.

HI existed before Dante's new rules. Same exact wording. Now I am curious though - did someone from GW actually tell you that or is it an assumption of yours?

I'd say they kept it in for that specifically.

Also note how I didn't say I agreed, RAW - RAW they couldn't do it. RAI I'd let it happen, because it's so unlikely.

Once the vanguard has charged into contact with the enemy... HI is no longer in effect, it's done it's thing and is over. After the van charges, I see no conflict with RAW in the IC then charging into the same unit as HI is no longer in effect. Even if chargers are declared simultaneously, the IC is still not within 2" of the squad, so at the charge declaration is still not conflicting with HI / RAW.

Heroic Intervention is NOT used before Deep Strike. It is declared. It is USED when they assault after Deep Striking. That is all Heroic Intervention does, it allows assault after Deep Striking.

Your play on sequence of events is wrong.

I thought the IC had to move to join the unit, regardless--not the other way around.

More to read.

Editing to add:
I did miss a bit, I get it.

I do not think it would work as the unit does not have HI when it declares its assault.
I think I get the other side's view, but I think it is wrong. heh

/shrug

Rephistorch wrote:
However, heroic intervention states that it is used before deep-striking takes place. Here's the logic chain:
1) Declare deep-strike and Heroic Intervention
2) Check if ICs are attached; nope none attached when declaring.
3) Heroic intervention is now in effect. The unit can assault after deepstrike, but can no longer shoot.
4) IC (not deep-striking) Joins the squad. HI does not say to remove the assault.
5) HI works as intended and the now IC led squad can assault. However; since the unit as a whole can not shoot, neither can the IC

If you think about it logically, the real reason they disallowed ICs from using HI, is that the ICs themselves don't have it in their profile. GW is essentially saying that the HI ability does not get conferred to ICs and since the whole squad is limited by it's most restricted member (in terms of movement/assault), it can't be used. It's just like all the USRs that don't get conferred to the whole squad just because one member has them.

Like I mentioned, you are completely off on your "logic" sequence.

1. Declare Deep Strike and Declare Heroic Intervention (declare, NOT use).
2. Deep Strike as normal.
3. Do not shoot.
4. USE Heroic Intervention to assault.

The ability cannot be used if an independant character has joined the Vanguard Veteran squad

Notice what I have emboldened in the rule. Not declare, but USED. When is Heroic Intervention used, not declared, but USED? When you assault. So an IC joining the VGV after it has Deep Struck, prevents the ability (Heroic Intervention) from being used, ergo, no assault after Deep Striking.

Brother Ramses wrote:Heroic Intervention is NOT used before Deep Strike. It is declared. It is USED when they assault after Deep Striking. That is all Heroic Intervention does, it allows assault after Deep Striking.

Your play on sequence of events is wrong.

Doesn't matter, as long as the IC is not with the unit when it assaults, there is no issue.

Gitsplitta wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Heroic Intervention is NOT used before Deep Strike. It is declared. It is USED when they assault after Deep Striking. That is all Heroic Intervention does, it allows assault after Deep Striking.

Your play on sequence of events is wrong.

Doesn't matter, as long as the IC is not with the unit when it assaults, there is no issue.

Have you even read the thread? The whole point of the OP and Rephis is attaching the IC before they assault and still using Heroic Intervention to assault. Seriously man, read the whole thread.

The IC cannot assault from deepstrike. That is the point.


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The IC cannot assault from deepstrike. That is the point.

I did read the whole thread, perhaps you should re-read it.

The original question as to whether a vanguard unit can from deep strike can essentially land near and IC already on the table and charge was cleared up pretty cleanly. No. It was proposed then by Pdero Kantor, that the van could deep strike in outside of 2" of an IC, complete their charge using HI, then the IC could independently charge the opposing unit on his own... ending up in the assault within 2" of the vanguard and by default... being joined to the unit. That's what I was responding to.

I thought that would have been obvious by the language used in my original post... if you'd bothered to read it carefully.

Gitsplitta wrote: ending up in the assault within 2" of the vanguard and by default... being joined to the unit.

That can't happen. ICs cannot join or leave units in the assault phase. While the IC would be treated as a separate unit during combat anyway, he would still be a separate unit for combat resolution/consolidation.

Ah... solves that then. Thanks Arshbombe.

Except that is never an issue as the IC is not joined to the Vanguard squad at that point - it is an irrelevant point to this discussion, as it never impacts HI. You cannot join a squad outside of the movement phase, assault /= movement phase, sorted.

Wow, that was exhausting...

Anyways, having just read through the posts of the thread, I'll add my comments on how I feel things have progressed:

1. HI is declared before Deep Strike happens.
2. Deep Strike occurs without a mishap, and VGV's are safely on the board.
3. VGV's do not shoot, but can assault.
4. If an IC is already on the table, and joins the same assault, but as a separate unit (as in "unattached from VGV"), HI is still permitted.

Golden Question: When is HI not permitted?

HI specifically states that if an IC joins the unit of VGV's before they launch their assault (after arriving via Deep Strike), then the ability is canceled/nullified/taken away/Adios amigo...

While I do believe that the RAW is pretty clear, I can see how some may interpret it differently. My take on the RAI in this case, is that GW did not intend for IC's to be able to join these assaults because of balance of power. Especially, if given the right IC for support (ie - a Chaplain or Librarian), VGV's would be absurdly overpowered. This is ALL aside from the fact that no other IC has the HI abiltiy, which, TBH, I don't think is the main reason why IC's aren't allowed to join VGV units that want to use HI.

Imagine the possibilities if it was allowed though... Add a Chaplain, and now you potentially have 40 Lightning Claw attacks on a charge, with rerolls for everything. This is the biggest, if not MOST IMPORTANT reason why I believe IC's aren't allowed to join in on HI assaults.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:
Imagine the possibilities if it was allowed though... Add a Chaplain, and now you potentially have 40 Lightning Claw attacks on a charge, with rerolls for everything. This is the biggest, if not MOST IMPORTANT reason why I believe IC's aren't allowed to join in on HI assaults.

You're not thinking big enough. Why add just one IC?

Add Dante: the vanguard don't scatter. This is huge.
Add a chaplain: now they're re-rolling misses. Pretty big.
Add a sanguinary priest: now they're S5 I5 and have FNP. Not too shabby.

Arschbombe wrote:

Rurouni Benshin wrote:
Imagine the possibilities if it was allowed though... Add a Chaplain, and now you potentially have 40 Lightning Claw attacks on a charge, with rerolls for everything. This is the biggest, if not MOST IMPORTANT reason why I believe IC's aren't allowed to join in on HI assaults.

You're not thinking big enough. Why add just one IC?

Add Dante: the vanguard don't scatter. This is huge.
Add a chaplain: now they're re-rolling misses. Pretty big.
Add a sanguinary priest: now they're S5 I5 and have FNP. Not too shabby.

I don't play Blood Angels, but yes, you are absolutely right. Hence, I think this is the biggest reason why IC's can't join VGV's in HI.

all right guys... If you don't wanna read the whole thread, at least read the title! Vanguards and IC ALREADY ON THE TABLE!!!
And the problem is:
-VGV deepstrike
-IC move next to the unit, automatically joining it
-Can the whole squad assault?

The IC is not deepstriking, and the doubt come because the intent of the authors seems (to me , i mean) to avoid that ICs could deepstrike and assault in the same phase (an IC can be truly too much powerful to allow something like that). And Also RAW are not very clear

Ramses explained his view in a clear way... But I still think that this thing is not so straightforward...

Well it IS straightforward: You USE HI to assault after deepstriking.

As soon as an IC joins you may not use HI

So if at ANY point before you assault an IC is joined to the unit you may not assault. Simples.

I was pretty sure I was answering your question with my comments, but if you're still confused, please allow me to elaborate.

Your Question:

punkow wrote:-VGV deepstrike
-IC move next to the unit, automatically joining it
-Can the whole squad assault?

My Answer: No.

Hope that clears things up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well it IS straightforward: You USE HI to assault after deepstriking.

As soon as an IC joins you may not use HI

So if at ANY point before you assault an IC is joined to the unit you may not assault. Simples.

^ This.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well it IS straightforward: You USE HI to assault after deepstriking.

As soon as an IC joins you may not use HI

So if at ANY point before you assault an IC is joined to the unit you may not assault. Simples.

This is, as far as I'm concerned, not the proper order of events. Here is a relevant snippet:
"If a ... Vanguard Veteran Squad arrives from deep strike, the player can elect for the squad to perform a heroic intervention - declaring this before the deep strike dice are rolled. If he declares a Heroic intervention, the Vanguard Veteran Squad cannot shoot (or run) that turn but can assault ... cannot be used if an independent character has joined the Vanguard Veteran Squad."

The declaration of its use, is when you use the ability. Note the language, "If he declares ... can assault". It also has a qualifier: "cannot be used if an independent character has joined". When you declare its use (commonly called, "using an ability") the unit does not have an IC. Also note that the sentence uses the words "has joined". They don't say, "will join", or "if they're ever joined". "Has joined" is only relevant when the ability is used. Since ICs can join squads during deployment and be deep-struck with them, that's what they are talking about here.

Every argument I've heard is: "if they are ever joined by". However, that wording is never, ever used in this rule. "Has joined" is the only thing that we can focus on. Since when the ability is declared to be used, there is no IC attached, then no IC "has joined" that unit. An IC may join that unit later, as his rules allow him to do so, and Heroic Intervention does not say that they "lose the ability" when they are joined. None of those wordings exist in the rules, we must therefore believe that they can be joined by an IC after the arrive via deepstrike, and have declared the use of HI.

I do like (sarcastic) the "No, you're wrong" 'arguments'. Way to show off those debate skills, fellas!

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The IC cannot assault from deepstrike. That is the point.

No, the point was can the VVG assault after he moves into coherency with them. No one is advocating the joining during DeepStrike.

--------------------------
Okay, time for another episode of Bob and Fran's 40k theatre!

--curtain rises--
1. Bob's turn 3. The IC is already deployed on the table. Been there since Turn 1.
2. The VetVanguard DS in, with HI declared.
3. They land. Scatter dice is a 'hit.'
4. Bob continues his Movement phase and starts moving units. Eventually slides his Chaplain next to the VVG, "Uh, the Chap is attaching" -- note, he didn't say "join" maybe Fran won't notice -- "himself to the Vanguard."

Fran nods, looking worriedly at the VetVG and Chap and at her, close, too close, Crisis Suits.

Bob moves on to the Assault phase. Measures. "They're within six!" Moves a VetVG and the Chaplain in b2b with the Crisis Suits and ... Fran calls, "Shenanigans!"

Before the argument gets too heated, the TO wanders over. He listens to Bob's defense that the Chap 'attached' after the DS, and that it doesn't mess with HI. "HI isn't a UniversalSpecialRule, so that doesn't mean it gets canceled."

The TO nods, This is true.

Bob continues, " ... HI is its own special thingy." And therefore the VEtVG can assault using the Litanies of Hate, Bob concludes.

To counter, Fran grabs Bob's Codex:SM, opens it to page 62, puts her finger on the last sentence of HI's description. "This ability cannot be used if an independent character has joined the Vanguard Veteran Squad."

TO says, "Bob, did the Chaplain "JOIN" the Vanguard? In any way, shape or form? At any time, this Turn?"

Bob fidgets. "Uh, yeah, after the Deep Strike."

TO points to the codex. "Coulya read that?"

Bob reads. TO says, "Out loud, please." Bob recites the rule Fran's pointing to: "This ability cannot be used if an independent character has joined the Vanguard Veteran Squad."

"So," says the TO, "It makes no distinction about before or after, just a clear, if an IC joins ... Are we done here?" Bob's shoulders sag and Fran squeals: The Crisis Suits are all Helios bodyguards, Fusion Blasters and PlasmaRifles, with Target Arrays, and two attached HQs similarly armed.

As Bob puts the VetVG and Chaplain back, TO pats Bob on the shoulder, "Sorry dude, no assault. You should read the rules more carefully, or better yet, run something like this by me before the tourney starts."
------------------------------
--Close curtain--

Thank you, thank you! The Bob and Fran 40k theatre always enjoys your patronage! We'll be holding our hats out for donations in the lobby! Please take out your trash!

Rephistorch - except you are confusing the timing. HI is only USED when you want to assault, as it is the only thing allowing you to make your assault move.

Rephistorch wrote: However, that wording is never, ever used in this rule. "Has joined" is the only thing that we can focus on. Since when the ability is declared to be used, there is no IC attached, then no IC "has joined" that unit. An IC may join that unit later, as his rules allow him to do so, and Heroic Intervention does not say that they "lose the ability" when they are joined.

The orange text is where your argument is flawed. The rule says "cannot be used." Page 62's HI, last sentence: "This ability cannot be used if an independent character has joined the Vanguard Veteran Squad."

Rephistorch, stating that, "HI does not say that they "lose the ability" when they are joined" is the problem as both of these phrases: GW's "cannot be used" & your "lose the ability" -- mean the same thing. Yes, they do. I should know as I'm an English teacher. Ya know, teachin' grammar and verbs and sentence structures? I'm tellin' ya, both phrases mean the same thing. Dude. Duuu-uude.

No assault when the IC joins in the Movement phase for VetVGs.

Rephis, when do you use HI? Not when you declare, but when do you use it?

Brother Ramses wrote:Rephis, when do you use HI? Not when you declare, but when do you use it?

Declaring its use is the same as using it. Assaulting is not using the ability. Using the ability allows you to assault. It also disallows shooting, which means that it would have to be "used" at least some time before the shooting phase.

or the fun thing withe HI is if you put a Blod angel Presst withe inn 6" of the Squad and then the Squad Charges. they even get strengt 5 intetiv 5 Charge. withe out having the problom of Reroll chapline crap. good way of bending the rull to the beder then chapling crapy reroll

Rephistorch - except when you want to assault, the only thing allowing you is HI.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Rephistorch - except when you want to assault, the only thing allowing you is HI.

Exactly, you've already used heroic intervention, so the vanguard veteran squad can assault. The IC was already present on the table, and doesn't have any assault restrictions so he can assault. Ergo, the IC can join the squad, and both can assault together, as they are both allowed to assault.

If you're saying that the IC "cancels" Heroic Intervention, that opens up a whole new can of cheese.

Vanguard Veterans deep strike and declare the use of HI. Oh no! 6 Inch scatter away from the enemy, what will I do? Don't worry, there's an IC nearby! My IC joins the squad and HI is cancelled! Now they can shoot in the shooting phase!

Now there's no downside to using HI all the time. As long as there is an IC nearby, you're saying we can all safely "cancel" the HI if our scatter goes bad. Plasma pistols are going to become a lot more popular now.

Um, not quite. When you get to the assault phase you check to see if you can assault.

It is at this point that HI is "used" - as it is the only thing allowing you to assault after deepstriking.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Um, not quite. When you get to the assault phase you check to see if you can assault.

It is at this point that HI is "used" - as it is the only thing allowing you to assault after deepstriking.

That's not when it is "used". You have to declare it's use before deepstriking (aka using it). What about the shooting phase restrictions? A unit that used heroic intervention may not shoot in the shooting phase. Again, this indicates that the ability is used before the shooting phase. After using the ability, you can not shoot, but you are allowed to assault. When you assault, you're not using the ability, you're using the effects of the ability that have already taken place.

It's like if an eldar player uses doom. Whenever they reroll the results of failed wounds, they're not "using" doom, they're benefiting from the affects of the power that had been previously used.

I concur with Nos. He's got it right.

Actually Rephistorch has it right. the ability is triggered (to use a different term) when you go to deep strike. once you declare it, it opens options not usually available to deep strikers. like not being able to shoot during the shooting phase and being able to assault after deep strike. once you declare it, your using it. that's when your logic check comes in, "had an IC joined the squad?". nope, ok, now i can assault this turn, but not shoot.

so now you land, via DP beacon, next to chappy all by himself, he joins during movement. "Wait, do i still have HI?" Well, that's not really the right question. what you should be asking now is can i shoot? (we are in the shooting phase after all). the answer is no, because you used/declared a HI before deepstriking (when you had no IC). now its the assault phase. can i assault with the IC? well can the VV assault? is the chappy allowed to assault? yes because they used HI before the DS and the chappy was on the table at the start of the turn and did not run.

point is that HI is used before the DS and the quality checks are done while using it. its not an ongoing, persistent rule that gets its logic checked during each phase. its a one time declaration that unlocks other things, as well as prevents things. the HI itself is the ability, and its an ability used before deepstriking.

the sentence in the rule that says, "HI cannot be used if an IC has joined the unit" is only in effect when you use (declare, trigger, whatever) Heroic Intervention. and that, my friend, is when you deep strike.

i like the example of the Eldar Doom. is doom being used every time your re-rolling to wound? no or your librarian would get to "hood" it each time the unit was targeted with shooting.

Actgually Doom is used, just not cast, each time you reroll wounds. Otherwise you have no permission to reroll wounds - Doom grants the permission.

Same for HI: if you try to assault you check:

1) I am a deepstriker, so I cannot assault this turn
2) This is overridden by HI being in play, so I can assault

If HI is not available to you when you come to assault the restriction on assaulting, which timing wise is ONLY checked at the assault phase, will be in place. Joining an IC to the unit disallows the use of HI, you USE HI in order to assault.

Not being able to run or shoot is a condition of HI allowing you to assault. This prevents someone from Deep Striking, scattering too far away to assault, and then deciding not to use HI and shoot or run.

That is the only reason HI is declared before rolling for scatter. You have to make the commitment to HI without knowing how bad or how good you will scatter and forgo shooting or running to allow yourself to assault after deep striking.

So declaring before scatter: done.
Not running or shooting: done
IC joins the unit: ABILITY CANNOT BE USED!
VGV cannot assault after deep striking.

Simply put what ability does HI confer?
So therefore if an IC has joined the unit, what ability cannot be used?

BRB FAQ
"Q. If an independent Character is joined to a
unit that is outflanking, when can he leave the
unit?
A. If an independent character is arriving from
reserve together with a unit, whether it is
outflanking or not, he cannot leave the unit
during the turn it arrives. He can, of course, leave
it as normal from the following turn."
If an IC is deepstriking in a DP, it can't leave that unit until the next turn.

stinkoman wrote:Actually Rephistorch has it right. the ability is triggered (to use a different term) when you go to deep strike. once you declare it, it opens options not usually available to deep strikers. like not being able to shoot during the shooting phase and being able to assault after deep strike. once you declare it, your using it. that's when your logic check comes in, "had an IC joined the squad?". nope, ok, now i can assault this turn, but not shoot.

But the IC will join the VetVG in this same Movement phase.

Ard that, according to the last sentence of the rule on page 62, cancels the ability "if an IC has joined the VetVanSquad". There's *nothing* there about the HI 'ending' once they hit the table. OR during the Movement phase, or before the assault or anything. If anything, the HI *has* to continue to ... 'exist'? Be 'in force' to allow the assault this turn.

Therefore, once the IC joins in ... HI gets canceled.

I typed up a few other replies to the rest of your points, stinkoman, considering and replying to each one. Well argued on your part, but still incorrect.

Then I thought, 'Wow, too much to wade through. Can I simplify this?'

Really, this is the crux of the matter: There's no permissive phrase or words in the (page 62) rule giving a time/turn/phase distinction/limitation. The limitation is "if an IC joins". It just flat out states, 'if an IC has joined'. As a player, you can't insert a distinction, given a game's permissive rules set. Like the TourneyOfficial points out (in my silly skit), there's no distinction in timing in the rule.

I think, until you can *find* that on page 62 where HI is listed or further errata from GW, a TO would rule as I have depicted.

Now just before I begin, I will say that I will never allow this to happen in a game I play, seeings how it looks to me as a TFG move.

For those of you who are arguing against the people that are saying it works, you have a simple problem that I thought you all, seeings how so many of you are "English Teachers", and supposed English Experts, and have in multiple threads pointed out that the english language agrees with you, missed the past tense structure to the part of the rule you are toting around and exclaiming makes it impossible. "If an IC HAS JOINED..." See that there, that is a past tense structure in a sentence.

So all this gak about it not having a time line is debunked. Just my two cents.

Noone has ignored it, at all. Has joined can be looked at at any point.

Not debunked at all. Try again.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Now just before I begin, I will say that I will never allow this to happen in a game I play, seeings how it looks to me as a TFG move.

Noted.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:For those of you who are arguing against the people that are saying it works, you have a simple problem that I thought you all, seeings how so many of you are "English Teachers", and supposed English Experts, and have in multiple threads pointed out that the english language agrees with you, missed the past tense structure to the part of the rule you are toting around and exclaiming makes it impossible. "If an IC HAS JOINED..." See that there, that is a past tense structure in a sentence.

Yeah, I noticed the "has". It is simply the tense a rules writer would have to use when writing a game ... not a crippling blow to the argument.

Now, if Matt Ward has an English degree or Teaching Credential ...

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So all this gak about it not having a time line is debunked. Just my two cents.

Not quite debunked, as there's no further *content* text regarding Movement phase, or Assault phase, etc. Phrasing changes in PastPerfect, Past or even Present tense aren't going to strike an Achilles Heel in what Nos1001 and I and others are saying. I'm guessing that the writers of the game don't put too much into had been, had, will join or any other grammar goofery. People who aren't in the 'grammar' field tend to stick with context/content, writing things like "Can't shoot in the Shooting phase" is more their concern, and far more clear for rules writing and understanding.

Nice shot though, KP.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Now just before I begin, I will say that I will never allow this to happen in a game I play, seeings how it looks to me as a TFG move.

For those of you who are arguing against the people that are saying it works, you have a simple problem that I thought you all, seeings how so many of you are "English Teachers", and supposed English Experts, and have in multiple threads pointed out that the english language agrees with you, missed the past tense structure to the part of the rule you are toting around and exclaiming makes it impossible. "If an IC HAS JOINED..." See that there, that is a past tense structure in a sentence.

So all this gak about it not having a time line is debunked. Just my two cents.

So in the situation that the OP describes, when the VGV with IC goes to assault after the VGV has deep struck and the IC joined, HAS an IC joined the unit and thus not allowing the ability to be used?

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Here is how I would play it based on my interpretation of the HI rule - if an IC joins the squad after they deepstrike onto the table they lose the special rule. To me this one is black and white. I'll just leave it at that.

I have to agree with this. Any other interpretation is simply trying to fudge a clear rule into enough of a grey area to break the rule to your advantage. I read the HI rule again before posting and it is crystal clear. Having to declare the HI before the Deepstrike is not the same as performing it.

I get distracted by the kick ass pick of the VV with LCs in the BA book on page 27 when i try to reread the rules for HI. i think im going to convert that guy.

anyway. a little dialogue and then some arguments.

T.O. (in response to OP): when did you use your HI ABILITY?
OP: when i declared it, before i rolled my scatter dice, like the rule says.
TO: did you have an IC attached when you used your ability? Because the rules say that "This ability cannot be used if an independent character joined the VV squad."
OP: Nope.
TO: Okay, carry on then.


look at it like a programmer would. I think there is an issue with whether the rule is something ongoing (therefore constantly checking condition) or something that is used at one time (therefore condition checked once) to grant/deny other abilities (like assaulting).

i tend to lean toward the latter since you declare the ability (to me, that's using the ability) before rolling the scatter dice. its pretty simple if you can differentiate it from an ongoing ability or a one time ability. You only need to check conditions of the rule/ability, and the "IC has joined" is a condition of the ability. by successfully meeting the conditions of the rule/ability, you are now denied the ability to shoot, but granted the ability to assault. whatever happens after the HI ability is used is moot.

seems pretty simple to me. i wouldn't even call this a loophole or a broken mechanic. i believe the RAI was to stop ICs from joining the squad before the DS. which is what is does. there are other things you can do to buff the VV when they land, like having a SP within 6 inches so they get FC. which is what i like to do. very rarely will i have a chappy all alone that could join the VV to even make use of it the way the OP said. if someone did it to me, i would say ok, it makes sense and kind of cool in a fluffy, cinematic way.

I couldn't disagree with that anymore. I would have the completely opposite reaction if my opponent tried to pull that. I would be interested to hear what Gwar! has to say on subject, not that I would listen if he disagreed with me...

I think after reading more of the actual rule, page 62 in C:SM and C:BA pg 27, they both have the same sentence that disqualifies HI with a IC attached at the time the HI was declared. Let me explain why, First it says that,"This ability cannot be used if an IC has joined..." blah blah blah. Now here comes the part about sentence structure I was speaking about. How do you use HI? Well it explains how you use it. You delcare after the squad has arrived from reserves, but before deploying by deepstrike that it will use HI. Please note, this ability cannot be used, or in other words it cannot be delcared. If it has already been declared the point for checking if an IC has joined is checked then. (This particular part all comes down to how you read the rule) Thus, those who say if an IC joins at any point makes the VGV squad not able to assault. While others say that it has been qualified when you delcare and check for it only then.

Now I think that to go a little further, if the OP has DP'd his VGV squad declaring a HI and attempts to attach an IC, he has run into a situation where the clear intent of the games designers, and codex writers, has been disregarded. Thus making it a TFG situation, but seeings how I think this is purely educational, I will give him the benifit of the doubt.

Again, please note that I think that the game designers (GW) have made it abundantly clear that you should not attempt to do this.

You still ignore that, when you come to make your assault, you are a unit that has deepstruck

In order to assault, you have to use HI. You USE HI to assault. Fairly straightforward.

So you check to ensure that HI is still valid. It is NOT valid, so you cannot assault.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You still ignore that, when you come to make your assault, you are a unit that has deepstruck

In order to assault, you have to use HI. You USE HI to assault. Fairly straightforward.

So you check to ensure that HI is still valid. It is NOT valid, so you cannot assault.

That's actually not quite right.

In order to assault from deep strike, you must have "elect[ed] to perform a heroic intervention - [having] declar[ed] this before the deep strike scatter dice [were] rolled." Of course, you can not elect to perform this action if "an Independent Character has joined". When do you elect to "perform" (aka use) HI? Before the deep strike scatter dice are rolled. The conditional check takes place before the deep strike, not at each phase thereafter.

Now, if heroic intervention was performed, the unit can not shoot, but may assault during deep strike. Now when you get to the shooting phase, and the assault phase, you check to see if the ability WAS used before the deep strike occurred. Was it? Yes. The unit can still assault.

Logic-flow:
VVS is about to elect to use HI.
Does the VVS have an IC attached? No. The VVS therefore elects to perform the HI.
An IC moves into contact after the scatter.
Assault phase: VVS wants to assault.
-Deep strike rules say they may not
-However, the HI rules say that if the unit has elected to perform a HI it may.

Had the unit elected to perform a HI? Yes they had, so they may assault. Period. You don't check if they can "use" the ability, as they have already elected to perform ("use") it. They passed the check earlier and that's all that matters.

I have to disagree. This has been covered in-depth so no need to rehash it any further now.

Gwar! We need your aid! http://xkcd.com/386/

look...I play tau and necrons...and I'm a


Automatically Appended Next Post:
look...I play necrons and tau, and I'm a VERY technical person...I like to fin loopholes and breakdowns amongst coomunications and flip stuf....I was talking to captain killjoy, and we both were looking at the rule. It says that a VVS can declare a HI, which allows them to give up there shootin or running for the turn that they arrive. It also says that it cannot be used if an IC has joined. So, we both came to the conclusion that since it HI was declared (used) before an IC joined the unit, it still goes through. period. (I want it noted that it says HAS, meaning before they had hit the table. not check every second of the game. It specifies specifically before the Deepstrike, not after......after wards is far game) (I've seen HQ'z for tau seperate from a crisis team during the assault phasze, because they get to move)

Rephistorch wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You still ignore that, when you come to make your assault, you are a unit that has deepstruck

In order to assault, you have to use HI. You USE HI to assault. Fairly straightforward.

So you check to ensure that HI is still valid. It is NOT valid, so you cannot assault.

That's actually not quite right.

In order to assault from deep strike, you must have "elect[ed] to perform a heroic intervention - [having] declar[ed] this before the deep strike scatter dice [were] rolled." Of course, you can not elect to perform this action if "an Independent Character has joined". When do you elect to "perform" (aka use) HI? Before the deep strike scatter dice are rolled. The conditional check takes place before the deep strike, not at each phase thereafter.

Now, if heroic intervention was performed, the unit can not shoot, but may assault during deep strike. Now when you get to the shooting phase, and the assault phase, you check to see if the ability WAS used before the deep strike occurred. Was it? Yes. The unit can still assault.

Logic-flow:
VVS is about to elect to use HI.
Does the VVS have an IC attached? No. The VVS therefore elects to perform the HI.
An IC moves into contact after the scatter.
Assault phase: VVS wants to assault.
-Deep strike rules say they may not
-However, the HI rules say that if the unit has elected to perform a HI it may.

Had the unit elected to perform a HI? Yes they had, so they may assault. Period. You don't check if they can "use" the ability, as they have already elected to perform ("use") it. They passed the check earlier and that's all that matters.

Seriously Rephis, I can't even stand to read your reasoning anymore. You came to a conclusion and are now reading the rules to only fit said conclusion.

For a unit of VGV to assault after deep striking, conditions must be met:

1. DECLARE before rolling deep strike dice that they will perform HI:
2. Not run or shoot.
3. Not have an IC attached.

Now your soapbox will continue to be that declaring is using so therefore the check for and IC is made then. However this is not only grammatically wrong but also wrong in game terms.

Grammer 101:

de·clare (d -klâr ) v. de·clared, de·clar·ing, de·clares v.tr. 1. To make known formally or officially. See Synonyms at announce. 2. To state emphatically or authoritatively; affirm. 3. To reveal or make manifest; show. 4. To make a full statement of (dutiable goods, for example). 5. Games To designate (a trump suit or no-trump) with the final bid of a hand in bridge. v.intr. 1. To make a declaration. 2. To proclaim one's support, choice, opinion, or resolution. Idiom: declare war 1. To state formally the intention to carry on armed hostilities against. 2. To state one's intent to suppress or eradicate: declared war on drug dealing in the neighborhood.

In game terms:

Note Assault Phase Summary, pg 33

Step 1

Pick a unit.

DECLARE which enemy unit it is going to assault.

Move the assaulting unit.

Multiple Combats, pg 41

Attacking

Declare how they are spliting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit.

And of course the HI issue currently being discussed.

Now despite everything to the contrary proving your definition of declaring is wrong, not only grammatically and in game terms, I am sure you will maintain your desire to circumvent the rules aka cheat. Good luck with that.

Done with this thread.

BrotherRamses wrote:
Seriously Rephis, I can't even stand to read your reasoning anymore. You came to a conclusion and are now reading the rules to only fit said conclusion.

Come on now, I'm not trying to attack you or anything like that. Just trying to have a good rules discussion.

Also, I didn't come to this conclusion before I read the rules. I thought the OP's question was very interesting, so I read the rules pertaining to heroic intervention and then made my decision.

BrotherRamses wrote:
For a unit of VGV to assault after deep striking, conditions must be met:

1. DECLARE before rolling deep strike dice that they will perform HI:
2. Not run or shoot.
3. Not have an IC attached.

1. Declare that you are choosing to perform (present tense) a heroic intervention.
2. After checking to see if this is a valid move (jump packs, deep striking, no IC) you finish your deep strike.
3. Squad CANNOT shoot or run (it isn't an option, or even a condition to check, this is the result of an action that was performed.)
4. Squad CAN assault (again, this is the result of an action. This isn't "using" the ability)

BrotherRamses wrote:
Now your soapbox will continue to be that declaring is using so therefore the check for and IC is made then. However this is not only grammatically wrong but also wrong in game terms.

Grammer 101:

de·clare (d -klâr ) v. de·clared, de·clar·ing, de·clares v.tr. 1. To make known formally or officially. See Synonyms at announce. 2. To state emphatically or authoritatively; affirm. 3. To reveal or make manifest; show. 4. To make a full statement of (dutiable goods, for example). 5. Games To designate (a trump suit or no-trump) with the final bid of a hand in bridge. v.intr. 1. To make a declaration. 2. To proclaim one's support, choice, opinion, or resolution. Idiom: declare war 1. To state formally the intention to carry on armed hostilities against. 2. To state one's intent to suppress or eradicate: declared war on drug dealing in the neighborhood.

Grammar 101, right back at you:
Declare: To make known formally or officially.
Elect: Choose (in this instance)
Perform: Carry out; Do
Do: Carry out; Perform; Execute
Carry out: Complete; Accomplish

Sentence: "If a jump pack equipped VVS arrives from Reserve by Deep Strike, the player can elect for the squad to perform a heroic intervention - declaring this before the deep strike scatter dice are rolled."

Equivalent sentence as per the English language: ".. arrive from Reserve by Deep Strike, the player can [elect or choose] for the squad to [carry out, do, perform, execute, complete, or accomplish] a heroic intervention - [making this known formally or officially] before the scatter dice are rolled."

Using grammar and simple logic, it's easy to see that the ability is actually USED before the deep strike occurs, therefore that's when it's conditions are checked. Are they jump pack equipped? Yes. Any ICs in the squad? No. They can perform the heroic intervention.

BrotherRamses wrote:
Now despite everything to the contrary proving your definition of declaring is wrong, not only grammatically and in game terms, I am sure you will maintain your desire to circumvent the rules aka cheat. Good luck with that.

First of all, you keep focusing on the word declaring, when there is a gigantic "perform" a few words prior in the same sentence. How can you argue that performing the ability is not the same as using the ability?

I'm not trying to cheat. I don't even think there would ever be many situations like this in the first place. This wasn't my question, and I don't plan on using it (unless all of the stars are aligned and the god's of chaos grant me a specific scenario in which this would even be useful). I'm not trying to base my lists around this or anything like that.

BrotherRamses wrote:
Done with this thread.

Well, that's unfortunate.

An IC already on the table can join the Vanguard and still assault.

The IC does not remove the capability of the unit to assault.

What the IC does do is prevent the ability to perform the Heroic Intervention in the first place.

This means that the IC would have had to be joined to the unit before deep striking and prevented the unit from using the Heroic Intervention ability.

I think we should go back to the Doom analogy and it should clear this up.

One of the conditions for using doom is that the Farseer has to be within 24" of the target unit.

Say the Farseer targets a unit then moves more than 24" away or is killed by a stray blast shot or otherwise removed from that 24" range. Do you still get re-rolls to wound against that unit?

Of course you do because the range check is made when you use the ability not when an effect of the ability gives you a bonus. Same here.

The English is pretty cut and dried and Rephistorch is bang on.

Except in order to Assault after Deepstriking you MUST have a special rule allowing you to do so.

You check that the rule is active, note the conditions on it, and reaslise HI has been neutralised.

Doom is irrelevant, as the requirements are time limited. Not the case here.

mmmm... I'm responsible for this madness...
So I would like to say what I will do:
-I'll ask my opponent what he thinks about this rule in friendly games
-I'll avoid to use such a tactic in tournaments
-eventually, ask my opponent, or the tournament organizer to make an "exception" to allow IC to not join the unit allowing them to assault separately in the few cases in which is impossible to keep the units 2" away...(it seems reasonable to me)
I personally think the intention of GD was to avoid deepstriking IC assaulting in the same round, but all the objections made to my initial idea are pretty reasonable...
Thanks for helping guys

I'm with Rephistorch all the way here...it just makes too much sense for you to deny it.....common sense (which isn't all that common) dictates that if it said you use/activate/trigger the ability BEFORE the scatter dice are rolled, then that's when the ability is used. They give up shooting/running. They get assault. period. if conditions are met when the ability is used, then that's that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except in order to Assault after Deepstriking you MUST have a special rule allowing you to do so.

You check that the rule is active, note the conditions on it, and reaslise HI has been neutralised.

Doom is irrelevant, as the requirements are time limited. Not the case here.

The rule is active, because it was used at the beginning of the turn. You don't recheck the conditions every time you check if it's active.

Except you do becaue you are making an assault, and you have to see if you can assault - which requires HI to be used.

You got permission to assault after your Deep Strike when you declared the use of Heroic Intervention.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except you do becaue you are making an assault, and you have to see if you can assault - which requires HI to be used.

See the post below yours. You were given permission when you choose to perform the HI. Do I have permission to assault? Deep strike says no, but HI was used and because it was used, it says that I can. So yes, I do.

Legality aside, why does it really matter?
If the vanguards and IC charge in joined as one unit, then once in assault they'll be treated as separate anyway.
If they charge apart, then the opponent can pick out the IC with shooting should the squad wipe out its target, but vanguard are fairly glass cannon for meq anyway, so if your opponent wants to kill the IC, he will be able to, vanguards or not.
The only time it would really pop up would be if your opponent uses it to gain an extra 2" of charge range for his IC.

The IC will be part of the unit once the assault is finished, providing him with protection from shooting. He'll also convey any rules to the Vanguard Veterans (like a Chaplain's rerolls from Litanies of Hate/Blood).

And yet you still need to be able to use HI to assault, otherwise the prohibition stays there.

If you have VV unit deepstrike onto the table during the movement phase and they end up within two inches of an IC who normally would be able to assault a unit is the consensus here stating that neither unit can now NOT assault.

I do not see how a an IC that is already on the table and can legally assault will block a unit from being able to launch a legal assault. That to me makes no sense.

If something prevents the IC from assaulting like deepstriking or exiting a non-assault vehicle then I see perfectly how HI would not work. But if he can launch his assault and they can launch an assault it should be allowed.

Good discussion by the way, learning alot from this one.

forkbanger wrote:The IC will be part of the unit once the assault is finished, providing him with protection from shooting.

ICs can only join or leave units in their own movement phase, so having an IC assault the same target as another unit that the IC was not a part of before the assault will not cause the IC to join that unit when the assault is over.

The cadaver of the equine is beyond even the most potent necromanical powers of voodoo priests. I suggest we all move on to another, "Can I shoot with PotMS if I pop Smoke?" thread.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except you do becaue you are making an assault, and you have to see if you can assault - which requires HI to have been used.

^ Edited that for you. You don't keep re-using and re-using HI. The Doom example is quite relevant, even though all the opponents of this keep dismissing it. You use HI once, then the effects apply. The rules aren't being broken when the ability was used.

And, even if you want to argue that you must check the qualifiers for HI, then your logic should follow thus:

1.) I use HI. Has an IC joined the squad? No.
2.) I deep-strike. Has an IC joined the squad? No.
3.) At the end of the movement phase, I join an IC to the squad.
4.) I do not shoot. HI prevents my unit's shooting.
5.) I elect to assault. HI allows my unit to assault. When I used HI, had an IC joined the squad? No.

In your above Doom rebuttal - you, in fact, do not keep using Doom over and over. You keep calling the effects of the Doom power that was used at the beginning of the turn. Every time someone shoots at you, you do not "use" the power. Your farseer doesn't cast the power and you don't check range. Your unit is under effect of the power that was cast at the beginning of the turn. Not one that is used every time they take an armor save. HI works similarly in that the power doesn't get continuously used - the effects get called. When the power was actually "used" - at declaration - there was no IC attached.

Wow I can't believe this one has gone on this long. It's the same thing over and over now with neither side giving any real ground. Silly discussion.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Wow I can't believe this one has gone on this long. It's the same thing over and over now with neither side giving any real ground. Silly discussion.

Not nearly as silly as your incessant declaraton of how cut-and-dry it is and how clearly it is laid out. Obviously it's not, otherwise we wouldn't be having the discussion. If you've got nothing more to add than to simply complain about the length of the thread, please, don't hesitate to show yourself out.

There was some confusion at first in regards to what exactly the OP was asking. If you go back and read the thread you'll see at first it looked like to the OP was asking could an IC attach to the VV during the DS and use HI. I think everyone agrees this is not possible. The OP then said what he meant is what if the IC was already on the table when the VV arrive via DS. The HI rule says that this does not work if the squad is joined by an IC, there is no caveat as to when the IC joins the squad - at anytime before or after HI is declared. It's just that simple so going through the rule looking for a loophole so that an IC can join them and they assault together doesnt work. Thats why I said its a silly discussion. The two units can assault separately though but not together joined as one unit.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:There was some confusion at first in regards to what exactly the OP was asking. If you go back and read the thread you'll see at first it looked like to the OP was asking could an IC attach to the VV during the DS and use HI.

I disagree. What the OP was asking was clear to me.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I think everyone agrees this is not possible.

Agreed.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The HI rule says that this does not work if the squad is joined by an IC, there is no caveat as to when the IC joins the squad - at anytime before or after HI is declared.

You're making assumptions that others are disagreeing with. Just because they don't agree with you does not make you right and does not make it a silly discussion. It makes it a discussion, that's all. Obviously, if you have been keeping up with the thread, then you just condensed a lot of arguments into a poorly paraphrased explanation which doesn't include the exact wording of the rule, nor does it include the actual implication about "when" an IC may or may not join. The rule gives a past-tense reference to an IC joining when the rule is used. And the only inkling into when you "use" the rule is when it is declared.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:It's just that simple so going through the rule looking for a loophole so that an IC can join them and they assault together doesnt work.

Don't be so quick to judge. No one said the OP is sitting at home all night scouring the BRB for loopholes. Many questions in YMDC are based on the fact that another player has used it against the OP. Although that may not be the case here, don't lord answers over the people arguing from some moral high ground as if you have a direct line to the game designers.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The two units can assault separately though but not together joined as one unit.

According to you.

punkow wrote:mmmm... I'm responsible for this madness...
So I would like to say what I will do:
-I'll ask my opponent what he thinks about this rule in friendly games
-I'll avoid to use such a tactic in tournaments
-eventually, ask my opponent, or the tournament organizer to make an "exception" to allow IC to not join the unit allowing them to assault separately in the few cases in which is impossible to keep the units 2" away...(it seems reasonable to me)
I personally think the intention of GD was to avoid deepstriking IC assaulting in the same round, but all the objections made to my initial idea are pretty reasonable...
Thanks for helping guys

Now wait a minute, you dont get off that easily, you caused this mess, now your stuck with it! [j/k]

what you said there really is in the spirit of the game. makes sense to me and even though im in the camp that you are able to do it, what you wrote is probably how im going to handle it in reality.

BTW, i was at a local tourney yesterday and asked about 8 people the same question, given the scenario. Everyone read the rule and unanimously said the assault would work. looks like, on the rare occasion it happens, that my VV wont get screwed for landing to close to an IC that can assault this turn.

total 8 from stinkoman, and another 6 from my end, thatz 14 people.