They are still Traitors but some of the legions falls were more tragic than i had thought.
Though i have always like the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion and the books haven't changed my view of them.
Most of the other traitors are a bit petty IMO but with some good points among them.
Some of the "bad guys" are pretty well-crafted, to be sure. But I don't think any of them--even Lorgar--have espoused convincing reasons for their betrayals. The best case would be reading a book that suspends your knowledge of a well-known character's well-known decisions. Again, BL readers are still waiting for this--or at least this BL reader is still waiting.
In my view, the reasons that the traitors have turned from the Emperor are all very good reasons to be even more loyal.
None of them had good solid reason just a few good points which they felt justified it but ultimately the entire thing is incredibly tragic.
Brother against brother...
BTW about your sig-Are the Ravens the New Orlean Ravens? Or are they someone else?
Manchu wrote:Some of the "bad guys" are pretty well-crafted, to be sure. But I don't think any of them--even Lorgar--have espoused convincing reasons for their betrayals. The best case would be reading a book that suspends your knowledge of a well-known character's well-known decisions. Agains, BL readers are still waiting for this--or at least this BL reader is still waiting.
In my view, the reasons that the traitors have turned from the Emperoro are all very good reasons to be even more loyal.
I'm not so sure. We've gone over this before, but Horus, the big-picture catalyst, turned because he was lied to...about a lot.
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purplefood wrote:None of them had good solid reason just a few good points which they felt justified it but ultimately the entire thing is incredibly tragic.
Brother against brother...
BTW about your sig-Are the Ravens the New Orlean Ravens? Or are they someone else?
Heretic. The Ravens play in Baltimore. The Saints are New Orleans.
purplefood wrote:None of them had good solid reason just a few good points which they felt justified it but ultimately the entire thing is incredibly tragic.
Their own ambitions and arrogance, I think.
BTW about your sig-Are the Ravens the New Orlean Ravens? Or are they someone else?
purplefood wrote:None of them had good solid reason just a few good points which they felt justified it but ultimately the entire thing is incredibly tragic.
Brother against brother...
BTW about your sig-Are the Ravens the New Orlean Ravens? Or are they someone else?
Heretic. The Ravens play in Baltimore. The Saints are New Orleans.
Be fair we hear next to nothing about American football in Britain.
Though from what i see Rugby is far simpler and way more fun.
Seaward wrote:I'm not so sure. We've gone over this before, but Horus, the big-picture catalyst, turned because he was lied to...about a lot.
As in he was left in the dark, you mean?
I think he just got to big for his britches. Some things are on a "need to know" basis--and sometimes Horus and Magnus did not need to know. What pain and suffering their egos must have undergone! *faints*
Nurglitch wrote:So what exactly would be a convincing reason to betray humanity? Just, you know, curious.
Your leader is an idiot. Though i would need him/her to actually make a huge mistake before i would betray humanity.
The people you are fighting are the morrally right side. Though i'm not sure i would betray humanity over that.
To be honest there aren't many reasons for it (Good ones anyway) which is what makes the books about the Horus Heresy hit-and-miss especially when it comes down to the extremly dubious reasons.
Seaward wrote:I'm not so sure. We've gone over this before, but Horus, the big-picture catalyst, turned because he was lied to...about a lot.
As in he was left in the dark, you mean?
I think he just got to big for his britches. Some things are on a "need to know" basis--and sometimes Horus and Magnus did not need to know. What pain and suffering their egos must have undergone! *faints*
It's never clear just how much the Primarchs really know. It seems that they were aware of the existence of warp entities, but not their true nature. Perhaps they would have fallen to temptations of power, or perhaps they would have realized what they were really in for.
Yet in the cases of Fulgrim and Magnus, it seems that their overweening pride would have led them to their dooms regardless. I can't see Fulgrim not seizing the Daemon weapon as a trophy for his ego; Magnus was sure he knew what he was doing. Horus was already feeling resentment towards the Imperium that reaped the benefits of the battles he fought. Pride led them astray, seemingly inevitably.
The other fallen primarchs are generally easier to understand, I think: Night Haunter was a paranoid nihilist anyway, Perterabo had been deployed too long- beyond even his endurance, and Mortarion was a loyal brother to Horus. That leaves Lorgar...
Lorgar is a zealot. He needs something to worship, something more powerful than him. When the emperor admonished his worship, he turned to something else with power.
I'm no longer of the opinion that Chaos is evil. They want only to survive and the Master of Mankind broke his promise to them after making a deal for the gene-forging abilities to create the Primarchs and the Astartes, in return the Emperor was to inform Mankind of the nature of the Warp so that they could join together united, rather than divided by fear and war like all the other races of the galaxy have done.
They were the betrayed ones!
And poor Slaanesh! She was brought into being by the Eldar and, in her first painful moments, abandoned by them! She only tried to live as her creators taught her and yet they left her alone, confused and hungry...
No, my friends, it is not as black and white as the Imperium would have you believe...
Miraclefish wrote:And who says Chaos is the evil one?
I'm no longer of the opinion that Chaos is evil. They want only to survive and the Master of Mankind broke his promise to them after making a deal for the gene-forging abilities to create the Primarchs and the Astartes, in return the Emperor was to inform Mankind of the nature of the Warp so that they could join together united, rather than divided by fear and war like all the other races of the galaxy have done.
They were the betrayed ones!
And poor Slaanesh! She was brought into being by the Eldar and, in her first painful moments, abandoned by them! She only tried to live as her creators taught her and yet they left her alone, confused and hungry...
No, my friends, it is not as black and white as the Imperium would have you believe...
This is a nice thought apart from the fact that the Chaos gods actions really don't support this especially the massacre of countless billions of humans.
Also when Slannesh was born he/she/it ate the souls of most of the Eldar Empire which doesn't really count as 'abandoning'.
I finally got around to reading The First Heretic and Lorgar's problem didn't seem to be so much his fanaticism, but the way the Emperor both delayed and aggravated his censure.
The Alpha Legion made sense as well, pointing out the incoherency of the Imperium's stated goals. Maybe it's just me, but I've never noticed teenage rebellion to be concerned with the consistency of first principles.
Magnus had made his deal with Tzeentch to preserve the Thousand Suns long before the events recounted in A Thousand Sons, and the ensuing events is the electric blue chickens coming home to roost.
In the case of the Thousand Suns I'm reminded of a story that stands as a counter-point to the silly notion that the past is the best indicator of the future: A man falls out of a 200 story buidling. After panicking for the first two hundred floors, he chills out because for the first 199 floors it's so far, so good. A Thousand Sons is pretty much just the legion hitting the tarmack after 200 years of damnation.
@Nurglitch: I agree with you completely about the Thousand Sons. Really, spot-on there.
As to the Alpha Legion, I think teenage rebellion is often about noticing the inconsistencies in your parents' application of authority and trying to claim that being inconsistent is the same as being arbitrary and being arbitrary is the same as being illegitimate.
It's hard to say what a good reason for betraying humanity might be. If I ever decided to write a novel about it, however, I'd probably give it a pretty long think. I may do it just as a hobby, so stay tuned.
In any case, Lorgar seems to have convinced himself that he was the savior of humanity. But it's a tissue thin justification. I haven't finished the book yet but I'm wondering if it this has more to do with denial or subterfuge.
No, I still think the Traitor Legions are.. uh... traitors. The motivations for the heresy still seem kind of petty.
Miraclefish wrote:And who says Chaos is the evil one?
I'm no longer of the opinion that Chaos is evil. They want only to survive and the Master of Mankind broke his promise to them after making a deal for the gene-forging abilities to create the Primarchs and the Astartes, in return the Emperor was to inform Mankind of the nature of the Warp so that they could join together united, rather than divided by fear and war like all the other races of the galaxy have done.
They were the betrayed ones! ...
I don't know, I have a hard time believing the Horus Heresy visions that the traitors are shown, as its a demon of chaos that is showing it to them and offering the commentary. Everything I've seen in these visions paints the Emperor in a bad light and benefits the Chaos Gods in the end. I'd like to hear an Imperial perspective on these visions.
That's what I mean, teenage logic is a contradiction in terms. They can rationalize, using words they've heard, but uniformly fail to engage in a rational thought process when dealing with their feelings of rebellion.
That's one thing I'll say about The First Heretic, the author never passes up a chance to belabour the resemblance of the Urizen to his father, and goes on to be pretty didactic in relating that Lorgar had dreams of a golden figure he first interpreted as his father, and later as himself.
Given that he'd spent 100 years believing his father to be the savior of Humanity, it seems reasonable that he'd give up on his father before he'd give up on the notion of Humanity's savior. And his father's rebuke for being religious was not only un-necessarily harsh, but poorly timed as well, at least from the standpoint of changing Lorgar's opinion about the necessity of religion.
Horus was driven over the edge at the thought of not being remembered after having been so utterly fantastically spiffy, Magnus had to be hounded off the edge by the Space Wolves, but Lorgar was betrayed by the Emperor.
That's the first heretic.
Note: I personally find the falls of the Primarchs all pretty convincing. It's an interesting psychological facet of people that, if confronted by some fact contrary to their own opinion, such as the Emperor not being God, they will not yank their entire mental structure of beliefs up by the roots and plant a new one. If they are interested in being convinced, and if they accept the fact as their new opinion, then they sometimes change that opinion to reflect the facts. Having performed the cognitive equivalent of a turniquet on the loss of beliefs before any more might need changing, the person will proceed content to labour in the endorphins of being right.
Kind of nice of the author of The First Heretic to riff on that with the Mechanicum Cybernetica attache.
I also enjoyed the bit where I think it's Xephan who's explaining to the Confessor the difference between artificial intelligences and machine-spirits. Of course, the relevant detail to the Chaplain is that artificial intelligence eventually turns on its creator, while to the Tech-Priest the relevant detail is that a machine-spirit is an artificially cultured human mind.
This is kind of funny because in the Philosophy of Mind there's an argument about artificial intelligence, namely that if we make them close enough to us that we can recognize them as having minds, they'll be indistinguishable from us and still leave us with the Zombie Problem. Conversely, if we don't make them close enough to us that we can recognize them as having minds, then we'll never know if they have minds and that leaves us with the Chinese Room Problem. In other words, they have to be the same as us and different at the same time...
This problem seems to turn on how you cash out 'having' and 'minds'. If you approach it ontologically, such that there are things called 'minds' that we 'have', it's reasonable to go looking for stuff. Descartes and Plato say that there are two substances, matter and mind, whereas Berkeley and Aristotle say that there is one substance, which is actuated by the soul.
But the problem actually turns on 'indistinguishable' and 'recognize', since it is actually epistemological. Turing, the mathematicians, goes with indistinguishability as his criterion, which turns out to be a flop as far as a model for empirical research goes, because it turns out that simulating a human mind for the purposes of the unrestricted Turing test has yet to be accomplish. Searle, the idiot, goes with distinguishability, citing instead a biological 'unified field of consciousness' when he misunderstands how computers work.
Searle creates the Chinese Room Problem because he misunderstands how computers (and apparently logic...) work. Searle believes that computer programs are just descriptions of how computer machines might work, and therefore just the way things look rather than the way things are.
So he comes up with the notion that, in principle if not in practicality, he could hop in a box and use a small rulebook to instantiate a computer program that passes the Turing Test in written Chinese. He reasons that if no one could tell the difference between the products of such a computer program the average Chinese writer, then no one could tell the difference between a person and a mindless machine. In logic this is known as "over-generalization", whereby Searle generalizes the presence of an expert system to mean the presence of an entire mind, which are notorious for the number and complexities of the tasks it can accomplish.
Which is the problem with the Turing Test in the first place, that we would predicate knowing if something has a mind on its ability to carry a conversation. [Also the coolest bit of the Doctor Who episode Blink]. Searle, as usual, manages to take the wrong idea and make it worse, suggesting that because we can't predicate knowing if something has a mind on its ability to carry a conversation, then we can't have artificial intelligence at all.
Warhammer 40,000 has a tripartite universe where you get the Cartesian Dualism mixed up with Berkeleyan Idealism, so that an evil d[a]emon could be misleading your mind about the state of the world despite that world being a thought in the mind of God. So it seems that characters often have a brain, a mind, and a soul all at once. Common objects usually have at least one.
The Alpha Legion, on the other hand, don't have believe in whatever abstract nonsense the author is trying to pass off as philosophy about truth, faith, and the nature of the 40k universe, but merely be skeptical of Imperial Truth. Abnett does a good job writing it, although the job is easier from the point of verisimilitude.
I suspect that its harder to write a tragedy when it's hard to relate to the protagonists, but Lorgar strikes me as the most relatable. His response to the destruction of the cities on Khur (cities on the plains, anyone?) was pretty reasonable.
By your reckoning, the loyal primarchs either never confronted the repudiation of any "fact" they had already accepted about the Emperor or the Imperium or even themselves (presumably because they never harbored any such illusion to begin with) or they were able to deal with such a repudiation. Which do you think more likely?
In any case, I don't find that narrative convincing. I mean, that is in fact what happens regarding Lorgar. (I'm not so sure that it applies to Horus or Magnus or any of the others.) I just don't think that it really makes sense for a Primarch (as opposed to a 21st-century teenager) to act this way. Unless, of course, we were to introduce some kind of artifice that forces personalities to work a certain way like
Spoiler:
like genetic engineering and some shady, sorcerous and conveniently mysterious deal with the Chaos Gods
Ah ha! Argel Tal explicitly rejects this explanation, at least regarding himself. We do not know for sure, however, whether or not that, too, is merely another skein of denial. Denial as a basis for rationalization is perhaps the ultimate mode for so much of the treachery that goes on in the HH series.
Then consider that the Primarchs are very much adolescent if that helps. How many of them considered something besides a stunted adolescence of playing soldier? They're never going to go through the usual processes of human development. If they're human they're human after the fashion of children.
That is how they've been colloquially referred to among fans for quite a while. I think someone even drew a cartoon-style picture of them as toddlers.
When it comes to CSM, I love the spirit of their current dex:
Svane Vulfbad wrote:I murdered thousands for the Emperor and he gave me nothing except his damning silence. Now his lapdogs yap for every life I take, while the gods promise me the galaxy.
If only Horus had said it!
*EDIT: I realize this is a bit unfair. A marine can get away sounding grandiose when he's just being prosaic. But Primarchs--well, how do you write demigods?
Seaward wrote:I'm not so sure. We've gone over this before, but Horus, the big-picture catalyst, turned because he was lied to...about a lot.
As in he was left in the dark, you mean?
I think he just got to big for his britches. Some things are on a "need to know" basis--and sometimes Horus and Magnus did not need to know. What pain and suffering their egos must have undergone! *faints*
Nah, I mean that he wasn't aware of the existence of Chaos, and Chaos pulled quite a con on him. People say, "Oh, he had a dream in which he saw crazy stuff, big deal." It's more than that. He actually did see reality - he just saw it in fragmented bits, futuristic bits, with absolutely no context. He had no reason to doubt it, basically, any more than you have reason to doubt you're really sitting there reading this post on a forum. Just as you're sure you're sitting there reading, he was sure that he was seeing the aftermath of the Emperor deliberately trying to ascend to godhood and screwing over a lot of the primarchs, in direct violation of what the Emperor said he was all about. He bought into the notion that that's what the Emperor was pursuing, that the Great Crusade was really a lie, just a power grab.
I think that to truly give the primarchs convincing reasons to betray their own kind, you would need much larger book than what have been written. Thousand sons was larger than the rest of the books so far and has done a good job of fleshing out Magnuses' reasoning for betraying mankind.
Plus hindsight is 20/20, what seems like a good reason for lashing out now looks pretty stupid after you've done it.
It's all about suspending disbelief. Let me just say, I haven't walked away from any of these books impressed or convinced by the traitor Primarchs. The brief glimpse of Guilliman in First Heretic, however, left me more ready than ever to put an Ultramarine army together.
I feel that Magnus is one of the traitors that had some good points. He was an advocate for education and illumination, but since he was a psycher, his fate was sealed. Not only does his fate show how hypocritical the Imperium is, it shows that they are kind of blinded by their own will to follow the Emperor.
Horus had a good point of seeing that all the Astartes had worked for was being given away to corrupted politicians and administrators to create more disparity in an already hellish existence for those on compliant Imperial worlds. As far as the Emperor's rumored rise to godhood, I'm not sure if that is Chaos talking to Horus, or if the Emperor truly was working on a device to transcend mortality. He certainly did become a god after Horus wounded him. I'm not sure if this is what the writers meant by his rise to godhood, but I could imagine that this is where they are heading if it hasn't already been written about.
I'm only starting "Legion" right now, but I felt that Angron, Lorgar, Mortarion, and Fulgrim all kinda fell for stupid reasons.
In game terms, I've considered starting a Pre-heresy army of Luna Wolves, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, or Iron Hands. All the books have done an extremely good job of making the primarchs likable while they were loyal.
I think some of the Primarchs had good points, but their own situations screwed them.
"A Thousand Sons" changed my opinions of Magnus and I'm halfway through "The First Heretic" which i'm very much enjoying.
Spoiler:
Both Magnus and Lorgar have their own flaws (Maggie's own overwhelming pride and Lorgar's obsessive need for faith) but the Emperor's handling of them drove them to the wrong path in my opinion. His shaming them before other Primarchs and their own Legions, saying that all they have lived for is worth nothing snapped something in the minds of the two Primarchs.
Lorgar's plight especially in The First Heretic has changed my opinion of the Word Bearers. When the Emperor told him after a century of spreading faith in the Emperor that he was a failure Lorgar was destroyed inside, his world came crashing down around him. The Big E shouldn't have done that, not to such a proud legion that was obviously built entirely on this belief. I haven't finished the book yet, but it seems strange why he would wait that long to bring Lorgar back in line.
Erik Wolfbrother wrote:I feel that Magnus is one of the traitors that had some good points. He was an advocate for education and illumination, but since he was a psycher, his fate was sealed. Not only does his fate show how hypocritical the Imperium is, it shows that they are kind of blinded by their own will to follow the Emperor.
...
For me Thousand Sons showed me that Magnus was at least as delusional as the rest of them. He thought he knew the best but the events of that novel proved that he was sorely mistaken. Especially with what effect he had on Terra and what happened to his children when they were fighting the SW. My big problem with the Emperor in the HH series is that for someone who apparently thinks of the Chaos Gods as the greatest threat to mankind he sure didnt educate his champions well enough.
So far the HH has proved the Emperor's hardcore "No gods, no worship" stance correct.
Betrayal is subjective. Lorgar grows up on a world with very dominant religion, and is convinced that the ONLY way humanity can endure is through faith - what it has faith IN is less important than the act of joining together through worship.
So, when the Emperor outright states that he is not a God (after seemingly accepting it for a hundred years), Lorgar attempts to find a 'real' God for humanity to have faith in.
In Lorgar's mind, he's saving humanity. He may be a traitor to the Imperium, but he doesn't think of himself as a traitor to humanity.
On the other hand, the Alpha Legion are, as loyalists, the most free-thinking legion. They deliberately isolate themselves from the rest of the Imperium and, though they support it in principle, they are aware that it is a flawed ideal. When they turn, they also do it for what they see as morally 'good' reasons - the preservation of the whole universe rather than just the human race. They are traitors to humanity, but they see it as part of a noble 'higher calling'.
Other primarchs are much simpler - Angron and Perturabo felt betrayed by the Emperor personally, Night Haunter felt beytrayed by the whole Imperium, and Magnus was kinda forced into it.
See for me the big issue is how blindly loyal some of the marines were to their primarchs.
Spoiler:
The story of Loken's and Torgadon's demise really got to me. These guys were as loyal as Abbadon and Little Horus, yet they had the sense to see that what was going on was wrong.
For me, too many of the traitor marines were all-too-willing to get involved.
Mr. Burning wrote:
I maybe have a better understanding of how the little people are affected and think about this aspect more.
Why would you have a better understanding of the little people? Are you a squat? a hive dweller? a ratling?
Ah, I should check what I type before hitting the submit button.
Reading the HH novels I enjoy learning more about the average inhabitants of the 40k universe, from the rememberancers to city dwellers. Slogging through nemesis at the moment I am more interested in goings on on Dagonet than the assassins and Valdor, Dorn, and Malcadors usual grumping, moping and posturing (yay, super humans are subject to petty wrangling, yawn).
The story in Horus Heresy with Angron and Kharn really illustrated to me just how loyal the legions were to their primarchs. This was a legion where literally every marine would have died before raising their hand against their progenitor. Excluding the betrayal on Istvaan 3 i think most marines were the same. The loyalists on istvaan 3 were forced to defy their progenitors, and i was still surprised there was only 1 marine in particular who returned to his legion.
Pretty much if your primarch turned to chaos, you were stuck along for the ride.
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Mr. Burning wrote:
ChaosGalvatron wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
I maybe have a better understanding of how the little people are affected and think about this aspect more.
Why would you have a better understanding of the little people? Are you a squat? a hive dweller? a ratling?
Ah, I should check what I type before hitting the submit button.
Reading the HH novels I enjoy learning more about the average inhabitants of the 40k universe, from the rememberancers to city dwellers. Slogging through nemesis at the moment I am more interested in goings on on Dagonet than the assassins and Valdor, Dorn, and Malcadors usual grumping, moping and posturing (yay, super humans are subject to petty wrangling, yawn).
i find the remembrances some of the most interesting characters in the HH series. Most of the SM's are pretty boring. Though maybe that is because very few are fleshed out. I really liked iactos quaze the half - the old school luna wolf. I liked all the marines that could remember terra, remember rocking out with the emperor. unlike the newbies that only knew their primarch.
And yes, looking back it probably explains the ones in the chaos legions who remained loyal vs the traitors. the loyalists were more likely to have been one of the original terran space marines, or had exposure to them. whereas the traitors were more likely to be devoted to their primarch above the emperor.
I havent read all of the books yet. But I have read the fiction about the overall period via google.
For a couple of them I do feel sympathy. Magnus is the main one I feel sorry for, since all he did was try to warn the Emperor of what was coming and instead was turned against. Granted he shouldnt have been messing with sorcery, but his warning should have at least brought about a level of concern. Alphaus is the other one I think was mistakenly wronged.
Instead his dad was a bit of a pompus ass. He should have listened to his son first, then punishing him later.
But no matter what the reasons were that turned them I still would have supported the Emperor.
For the most part-- with the exception of Magnus and Fulgrim, basically-- they just seem like sheep following gods they don't understand all out of a knee-jerk reaction from not getting everything they wanted from big daddy Emperor.
Magnus and Fulgrim were the two that were best written by far, as far as the traitors go.
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Charley359 wrote:Instead his dad was a bit of a pompus ass. He should have listened to his son first, then punishing him later.
The Emperor just asked the wolves to bring him in, not to kill him. It was Horus that twisted this order into "maim kill burn". Actually, that's the very reason why Magnus feels so sympathetic-- if only things had been different. Ah well. Chaos gets the Egypt-themed faction, not the Loyalists.
E was negligent in his care of his kids, gave them all lots of toys and a massive playground for then to prove themselves in, then, whilst they were shouting 'look daddy, look what I have done' he buggered off back to his house and locked the door behind him so he could boot up his computer and look up 'hot esoteric action'.
I do notice that one of the kids has been so brainwashed and browbeaten that he stays around the house tidying up.
Who wants to read about neglected kids who joined some kind of cult?
Mr. Burning wrote:
E was negligent in his care of his kids, gave them all lots of toys and a massive playground for then to prove themselves in, then, whilst they were shouting 'look daddy, look what I have done' he buggered off back to his house and locked the door behind him so he could boot up his computer and look up 'hot esoteric action'.
His timing wasn't exactly the best was it? Maybe if he would've waited until the end of the Crusade and said 'well that's me done kids, you look after the Imperium for a while whilst a take a look at the webway ... errr I mean ... sit down with a cup of tea'.
And then told them about it rather than ... I need to go now to do something so important that I can't even tell you kids.
I think chaos had been planning for a long time on how to take down the emperor, and the primarchs were the key to this. So what seems like small reasons to betray humanity to us, are blown out proporsion in the eyes of the primarchs because of the chaos gods.
Remember, chaos showed Horus that he would be forgotten and cast aside. That would tick me off too.
Mr. Burning wrote:Who wants to read about neglected kids who joined some kind of cult?
Maybe they really aren't kids. (That reading is more than a little lame.) It could be that the Primarchs were really just instruments the Emperor created to fulfill a purpose and had no "right," as it were, to ask so many questions. Honestly, nothing gives Horus or the others the "right" to know everything the Emperor thinks and plans. If anything, the loyalists were more willing to accept their place on the totem pole. Did the Emperor let Guilliman and Sanguinius in on his secret research but not Horus and Magnus? Did he tell Russ all about the Ruinous Powers but not Lorgar? That's pretty doubtful.
Indeed, but still doesn't change the fact that he betrayed his father pretty easily. We know that it's Horus actions that cause there not to be any status of him.
Also remember that Horus discovered from Magnus at the end of the vision that he was being deceived, he still chose to follow Erebus even.
Mr. Burning wrote:Who wants to read about neglected kids who joined some kind of cult?
Maybe they really aren't kids. (That reading is more than a little lame.) It could be that the Primarchs were really just instruments the Emperor created to fulfill a purpose and had no "right," as it were, to ask so many questions. Honestly, nothing gives Horus or the others the "right" to know everything the Emperor thinks and plans. If anything, the loyalists were more willing to accept their place on the totem pole. Did the Emperor let Guilliman and Sanguinius in on his secret research but not Horus and Magnus? Did he tell Russ all about the Ruinous Powers but not Lorgar? That's pretty doubtful.
Its much more fun to jump on the, Primarchs are spoilt brats band wagon though.
The Primarchs and legions must fear the use they are made for will come to an end. I wonder if the Emperor would regret the making of his instruments, even before the heresy?
I would be much more sympathetic, and interested, if this were explored. Even Boring Rowboat would be made interesting if the loyalist Primarchs and legions had some thought that their continued existence relies on never accomplishing theiri task and that heresy guarantees their survival.
I think that's pretty much what was getting Horus riled up--that he was just being used up and would eventually be disposed of. On the other hand, he was treated as the favored son so those feelings are hard to take seriously. I don't think any of them have yet expressed support for the heresy simply to plunge the Imperium into endless war. Sounds like something Angron might dream up, right? Maybe even Perturabo?
liam0404 wrote:These guys were as loyal as Abbadon and Little Horus, yet they had the sense to see that what was going on was wrong.[/spoiler]
What has always made me think is did the Traitors ever think that what they were doing was wrong.
For example the Emperors Children start allowing themselves to be genetically modified by Fabius and dress in flayed skins. Did they ever think 'hey, haven't we gone a bit to far'. So they had to kill their brothers in other legions to get to where they wanted to be, the new masters of the Imperium, but worshipping gods and killing hundreds of thousands of innocents for no apparent reason. Surely some must have thought, what are we doing is wrong. Devram Korda seems to question what they are doing, I think Sedirae also did before he, well, you know.
ChaosGalvatron wrote:The story in Horus Heresy with Angron and Kharn really illustrated to me just how loyal the legions were to their primarchs. This was a legion where literally every marine would have died before raising their hand against their progenitor. Excluding the betrayal on Istvaan 3 i think most marines were the same. The loyalists on istvaan 3 were forced to defy their progenitors, and i was still surprised
True but then you could argue that the events on Istvaan prove that loyalty above all for a large part of the legions was always to the Emperor. They were the element that the Primarchs knew would never be turned to their cause.
I think the exception would be the Night Lords as they had gone rogue even before the Heresy and I guess the Iron Warriors after the destruction of Olympia.
The Traitor Primarchs seem to use bully tactics to force their point, Lorgar against Sol Tagron, Mortarion on Garro, Fulgrim through Eidolon on Tarvitz. You're either with them or against them, despite of how loyal you are, as Liam points out.
Also I wonder if the Loyalist Legions had to purge their ranks of traitors from the First Heretic we know that Lodges were in other Legions. Will we see the likes of the Imperial Fists have cull or were the loyalist legions just that, loyal without question.
The difference between the traitor and loyalist primarchs seems to be that the loyal knew their role and accepted their lot. The traitor primarchs wanted more.
Manchu wrote: I don't think any of them have yet expressed support for the heresy simply to plunge the Imperium into endless war. Sounds like something Angron might dream up, right? Maybe even Perturabo?
I think you're right. I don't think that even these 2 wanted a constant war, just wanted to have what they were due and be recognised. But as with a lot of things the deeper you get in the harder it is to get out. If Perturabo saw hope that he might have been forgiven for Olympia then he might not have even sided with Horus.
This poll assumes one was sympathetic toward the Imperium at the outset and that the books could only make you more sympathetic toward the Traitors or leave your view unchanged.
Personally, I find that the books have made me more sympathetic to the loyalists and 40K humanity in general. I always preferred the Xenos (Eldar, Orks) and Chaos (Nurgle). The HH books have awakened my humanocentric tendencies.
The Lodges of other legions might of been purged. Remember only the Grey Knights have never had a single one of their number fall. Which means each legion has had members betray them.
Horus turned on the emperor because when he was heavily wounded and poisoned in battle lorgar, primarch of the word bearers somehow clouded his min (how exactly is not specified). The others turned out of greed, Being convicted to chaos (word bearers), being declared heretics for practising sorcery (magnus and his thousand sons), Believing in horus more than the emperor (sons of horus) or being mutants.
If anyone whants more detailed info about anything 40k or warhammer fantasy visit www.lexicanum.com which is basically a warhammer wiki
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok well im just saying for everyone who doesnt, since all of what i said is written there and not everyone seems to know it
Use the edit button. its very useful.
Anyway the only Groups I feel sorry for is Alpharius and Omegaon and Magnus.
The only legion I wish they would write about more are the DARK ANGELS!
I mean seriously we need the loyalist point of view.
So far everyone is getting confused. And I hate the BS that luther was the good guy. He isn't. He is as evil as they come! The Lion evil! HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Well this maybe because I *cough*love*cough* the dark angels. I never find any really really good lore on them.
p.s i was reading ur blog and maybe you know, maybe you dont but the 10'th company is a scout company, so everyone in it is a scout (with the exception of seargents)
Malice wrote:p.s i was reading ur blog and maybe you know, maybe you dont but the 10'th company is a scout company, so everyone in it is a scout (with the exception of seargents)
utan wrote:This poll assumes one was sympathetic toward the Imperium at the outset and that the books could only make you more sympathetic toward the Traitors or leave your view unchanged.
Shadowbrand I am with you my allegiance lies with Sanguinius and the Blood Angels but yes I do remember my filthy chaos roots and the good ole days of being a word bearer oh how I miss the chaos
utan wrote:This poll assumes one was sympathetic toward the Imperium at the outset and that the books could only make you more sympathetic toward the Traitors or leave your view unchanged.
Hmm, reread the options.
I guess the options just don't capture my personal experience. I would say yes, the books have changed my views but I would not say the traitors were being petty or that they had some good points. Oh well...
The ones who changed their armor to green are loyal. The ones who kept their armor black are not. Except for the ones who still wear black armor and ride motorcycles. Although some of the ones in black armor that ride motorcycles but go around with the ones in black armor who do not ride motorcycles are disloyal, too. Then there are the ones who go around with the ones in green armor except they wear bone-colored terminator armor and they are still loyal, probably the most loyal, except that they have a tendancy to stop whatever they're doing when the ones who kept the black armor (but do not ride motorcyles--again, in most cases) are rumored to be around.
Manchu wrote:The ones who changed their armor to green are loyal. The ones who kept their armor black are not. Except for the ones who still wear black armor and ride motorcycles. Although some of the ones in black armor that ride motorcycles but go around with the ones in black armor who do not ride motorcycles are disloyal, too. Then there are the ones who go around with the ones in green armor except they wear bone-colored terminator armor and they are still loyal, probably the most loyal, except that they have a tendancy to stop whatever they're doing when the ones who kept the black armor (but do not ride motorcyles--again, in most cases) are rumored to be around.
I hope that clears it up for you.
Well I knew that.
I mean the Dark Angels seem to be evil. As they destroyed an entire Black Templar Crusade.
Asherian Command wrote:I mean the Dark Angels seem to be evil. As they destroyed an entire Black Templar Crusade.
Come again?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, okay. It seems like this was from the Eye of Terror campaign and involved the BT capturing and refusing to hand over one of the Fallen. The DA will absolutely not tolerate the idea of anyone finding out about their secrets so they eradicated the smaller BT force along with the Fallen those BT had captured.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I doubt they'lll give a specific answer because that would get rid of one the big parts of dark angel's story, that they have a dark secret.
Asherian Command wrote:I mean the Dark Angels seem to be evil. As they destroyed an entire Black Templar Crusade.
Come again?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, okay. It seems like this was from the Eye of Terror campaign and involved the BT capturing and refusing to hand over one of the Fallen. The DA will absolutely not tolerate the idea of anyone finding out about their secrets so they eradicated the smaller BT force along with the Fallen those BT had captured.
I hadn't heard of this - could anyone point me to a source so I can have a read?
I don't see how turning against the emperor is seen as needing to be convincing.
He's a sociopathic tyrant who bred you for war. (If "you" were a primarch).
Whats not to hate?
You might say its pretty obvious early on in most primarch's falls, that chaos is really evil, but these guys have been genociding on command the majority of their lives.
Whats the big differnce between killing a planet of people who refuse the imperium and killing a planet of people because it pleases the gods?
EDIT so for the question, No HH hasn't changed my opinion that Chaos is an ok choice. Being loyal is an ok choice too. Chaos is just more interesting from a reading point of view IMO.
Asherian Command wrote:I mean the Dark Angels seem to be evil. As they destroyed an entire Black Templar Crusade.
Come again?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, okay. It seems like this was from the Eye of Terror campaign and involved the BT capturing and refusing to hand over one of the Fallen. The DA will absolutely not tolerate the idea of anyone finding out about their secrets so they eradicated the smaller BT force along with the Fallen those BT had captured.
I hadn't heard of this - could anyone point me to a source so I can have a read?
Asherian Command wrote:I mean the Dark Angels seem to be evil. As they destroyed an entire Black Templar Crusade.
Come again?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, okay. It seems like this was from the Eye of Terror campaign and involved the BT capturing and refusing to hand over one of the Fallen. The DA will absolutely not tolerate the idea of anyone finding out about their secrets so they eradicated the smaller BT force along with the Fallen those BT had captured.
I hadn't heard of this - could anyone point me to a source so I can have a read?
I really don't dig on Chaos Space Marines, because I have a fundamental loathing of traitors and betrayers. Factor in what they did to Ferrus Manus on Isstvan and it pretty much seals the deal, for me.
It hasn't really made me reconsider my allegiances, I never liked traitors and I still do.
I do however see much more character behind the Primarchs and Space Marines, I can also see more reasoning behind their betrayal. However, for me, they are still fools. They still allied with the Chaos Gods. Chaos Gods! I could understand them rebelling, but why would you think that allying with the likes of Chaos was a good idea?!
Blood Sacrifices? Sounds lovely.
Horrible Mutations? Hmmm, hug me now.
Manipulation of you (Primarchs)? Wow, I can trust you!
Turning people crazy? Does sound appealing.
I can understand them betraying, I cannot - and still cannot - see why they would listen to the Chaos Gods?! They would have no reason to believe them. None. Listen to them? Yes, investigate what they are saying further? Definitely. listen to just them, despite the galaxy hanging in the balance? Most certainly not.
I think the quote in my signature sums up why the Chaos gods shouldn't be followed. It did show some underlying reasoning behind their actions, it still shows no sense to following Chaos.
However, what the Horus Heresy series has made me think about/ change allegiance about is the Emperor, himself and his actions. He was significantly flawed despite his godliness, something I at-least didn't know beforehand.
The Horus Heresy didn't really make me reconsider my position on traitors, however it has made me significantly question the Emperor.
Oh, the Horus Heresy series also helped me realise how much of a douche Leman Russ is.
Tzeentch managed to save the Thousand Suns, so Chaos certainly made Magnus an offer he couldn't refuse.
The Death Guard were likewise first doomed and then saved by Nurgle.
The Emperor's Children basically came out of the closet and the World Eaters simply had to stop washing their armour.
The Iron Warriors didn't feel like all of their blood, sweat, and tears on the part of the Imperium wasn't appreciated, whereas the Chaos Gods at least can be used.
The Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Night Lords were all aware of the Imperium's foundational problems, ranging from its philosophical inadequacy, to its religious oppression, to its active hypocrisy in censoring those carrying out its program of Unity by Force.
Interestingly the Sons of Horus seem to have fallen for a variety of reasons, namely that they saw the elevation of Horus to Warmaster both as a betrayl of the Great Crusade, and elevating Horus to almost his rightful level of authority. Horus deals with the Dark Powers out of pride, believing himself to be able to get the best of a deal with entities that his father couldn't outwit. Dude's got the entitlement complex that only the greatest of the Primarchs could have.
I have to admit I find Angron's one-dimensional portrayl so far is kind of boring.
The Poll's options don't really do it for me. The Big E was the let down most for me.. I mean comon stop tinkering on the webway and pay attention to your damn crazy mutant children!
If I found out that the leader of mankind was a coalescence of the shamans (really? Shamans?) of mankind's past, I would turn treacherous too.
But anyway. Lorgar - his actions proved he had no faith to begin with, but merely a desire for the worship of gods, be they false or not. If he truly had faith, he would accept the emperor's chiding as a test. A test which he failed.
And yes, Chaos is evil. Very evil. Defend them how you may, but the gods of violence, disease, change, and lust can be nothing but. Their entire existence is dedicated to bringing pain and suffering to mankind, and that is fact.
In the case of the traitor primarchs, what they may have covered over as they themselves being betrayed was nothing but their acceptance of evil in return for power. They betrayed man out of greed, arrogance, and the lust for power.
DA's Forever wrote:The Poll's options don't really do it for me. The Big E was the let down most for me.. I mean comon stop tinkering on the webway and pay attention to your damn crazy mutant children!
Nurglitch wrote:So what exactly would be a convincing reason to betray humanity? Just, you know, curious.
Yes, this, a thousand times this!
And considering just how foul Chaos is in the 40K Galaxy, I'd guess the Traitor Primarchs realize how badly they screwed up... and how badly they were screwed!
Miraclefish wrote:And who says Chaos is the evil one?
I'm no longer of the opinion that Chaos is evil. They want only to survive and the Master of Mankind broke his promise to them after making a deal for the gene-forging abilities to create the Primarchs and the Astartes, in return the Emperor was to inform Mankind of the nature of the Warp so that they could join together united, rather than divided by fear and war like all the other races of the galaxy have done.
They were the betrayed ones!
No, my friends, it is not as black and white as the Imperium would have you believe...
Actually, it really is.
All of these 'visions' of the Ruinous Powers making 'deals' with the Emperor? How True are they?
These are, after all, propaganda films, produced with turning the Emperor's sons traitor.
I'd say their truthfulness is very suspect, right from the start.
Asherian Command wrote:I am wondering should I buy Legion?
DA's Forever wrote:The Poll's options don't really do it for me. The Big E was the let down most for me.. I mean comon stop tinkering on the webway and pay attention to your damn crazy mutant children!
From reading i did find that the horus herasy was not so black and white as i thought i definatly like the imperium of old better and see the new one as almost a rotting husk of its past self. Also i see horus's alpharius/omegons and big red's storys as rather sad and tragic i see it more as horus was a puppet than the lead.
Miraclefish wrote:And who says Chaos is the evil one?
I'm no longer of the opinion that Chaos is evil. They want only to survive and the Master of Mankind broke his promise to them after making a deal for the gene-forging abilities to create the Primarchs and the Astartes, in return the Emperor was to inform Mankind of the nature of the Warp so that they could join together united, rather than divided by fear and war like all the other races of the galaxy have done.
They were the betrayed ones!
And poor Slaanesh! She was brought into being by the Eldar and, in her first painful moments, abandoned by them! She only tried to live as her creators taught her and yet they left her alone, confused and hungry...
No, my friends, it is not as black and white as the Imperium would have you believe...
This would work except BL has utilised the modern, Western post-Christian belief of all daemons being inherently evil creatures who exist only to cause trickery, pain and suffering.
If they had described the denizens of the warp as being something more akin to the Eastern idea of 'spirits' (where daemons have personalities and interests as varied as living people) then you could well believe that the Emperor would get what was coming to him. As it stands, if he did indeed trick the Chaos gods into giving him powers, then his motives were still noble as he was trying to save humanity from creatures which exist for nothing other than to destroy it.
Miraclefish wrote:And who says Chaos is the evil one?
I'm no longer of the opinion that Chaos is evil. They want only to survive and the Master of Mankind broke his promise to them after making a deal for the gene-forging abilities to create the Primarchs and the Astartes, in return the Emperor was to inform Mankind of the nature of the Warp so that they could join together united, rather than divided by fear and war like all the other races of the galaxy have done.
They were the betrayed ones!
And poor Slaanesh! She was brought into being by the Eldar and, in her first painful moments, abandoned by them! She only tried to live as her creators taught her and yet they left her alone, confused and hungry...
No, my friends, it is not as black and white as the Imperium would have you believe...
This would work except BL has utilised the modern, Western post-Christian belief of all daemons being inherently evil creatures who exist only to cause trickery, pain and suffering.
If they had described the denizens of the warp as being something more akin to the Eastern idea of 'spirits' (where daemons have personalities and interests as varied as living people) then you could well believe that the Emperor would get what was coming to him. As it stands, if he did indeed trick the Chaos gods into giving him powers, then his motives were still noble as he was trying to save humanity from creatures which exist for nothing other than to destroy it.
That does sum it up nicely.
Chaos in the 40K Galaxy is a nasty, nasty thing - there really isn't an 'upside' to it.
I disagree. Daemons are clearly portrayed as amoral rather than immoral. A Thousand Sons is a great example of the amorality of the Warp where both sides use magic and only the Thousand Sons get the short end. I think that's why they keep emphasizing the Sun in The First Heretic as an example of something that's morally neutral in itself, and yet has moral (or proto-moral) relationships with agents - too far away and you freeze, too close and you burn, and just right and all you get is a long life and cancer.
Interesting there's a total Lovecraft shout-out when Lorgar reminisces about talking to Magnus about the nature of the universe in "the halls of Leng"...
One thing i find interesting is that originally the alpha legion was not ever swayed by chaos yet nwo they have deamons and i beleve at least one brother became a deamon prince i wonder how they were corupted. Oh and yes i read all of legion.
Re-read the parts where the Alpha Legion Captains talk seditiously about the founding principles of the Imperium. Alpharius talks about allowing his Captains to engage with the Imperial Truth philosophically, so long as they uphold it.
The Cabal itself is mentioned to be on the path to corruption by Chaos, as John Grammaticus notes that in the past the Cabal was less easily moved to consider bloodshed. The Cabal's farseeing device capitalized on this when the Primarchs were told that they could prevent the fall of Humanity to Chaos if they sided with Horus so it could be destroyed entirely.
That sort of death before damnation approach is standard Imperial Truth, the sort used to justify particularly genocidal compliances. But the Alpha Legion don't hold Imperial Truth in particularly high regard, and have a rather adverserial relationship with most other Imperial organizations (so it seems). If they weren't already waging a covert war against the Imperium, the Heresy sure gave them an excuse.
I guess my problem is that this version of Angron goes full-slow on a regular basis, in the sense losing all connection with the audience. I mean while he is famous for being a ridiculously destructive spaz, we don't really get that in the Horus Heresy novels because Angron is always being a ridiculously destructive spaz. Being a one-note character takes emphasis away from that note.
Back in the day the comment was that it was easy enough for the World Eater's martial blood rituals to be directed towards Khorne. In fact for a time there was a popular notion that Khorne was an honourable God: so people were annoyed by the idea of the whole World Eaters becoming Khorne Berzerkers. Mind you, that was back when you could have Stormboyz dedicated to Khorne.
The point being that there's nothing fun and interesting about World Eaters, their adoption of bunny ears as the sacred symbols of Khorne, Kharn's epic beat poem Kill, Maim, Burn, or the significance of the skull/red blood/black iron and brass to Khorne.
Mr Nobody wrote:For me, the horus heresy books have done a good job of showing the idea that no man thinks he's evil.
Agreed! I've never really been really into the fluff before the HH series but seeing how truly tragic these guys fell and how grey the lines were in what I thought was a black-and-white universe really shifted my whole opinion of the chaos forces altogether.
That said, the chaos primarchs still strike me as a bunch of dudes with daddy-issues, but that's being unfair to oversimplify them that much. Tragically fallen evil men who don't think they're evil (with daddy issues) seems to fit much better. Even though that exact same description could fit Dr. Evil from the Austin Powers movies.
I guess my problem is that this version of Angron goes full-slow on a regular basis, in the sense losing all connection with the audience. I mean while he is famous for being a ridiculously destructive spaz, we don't really get that in the Horus Heresy novels because Angron is always being a ridiculously destructive spaz. Being a one-note character takes emphasis away from that note.
Back in the day the comment was that it was easy enough for the World Eater's martial blood rituals to be directed towards Khorne. In fact for a time there was a popular notion that Khorne was an honourable God: so people were annoyed by the idea of the whole World Eaters becoming Khorne Berzerkers. Mind you, that was back when you could have Stormboyz dedicated to Khorne.
The point being that there's nothing fun and interesting about World Eaters, their adoption of bunny ears as the sacred symbols of Khorne, Kharn's epic beat poem Kill, Maim, Burn, or the significance of the skull/red blood/black iron and brass to Khorne.
I see what you're saying. I haven't been playing 40k for as long as would be necessary to make those comparisons so maybe that's where this all stems from. My only understanding of the World Eaters boils down to MOAR CHAINAXES! I would only say that to some, mindless killing machines are fun and interesting.
Calvinus wrote:...the chaos primarchs still strike me as a bunch of dudes with daddy-issues, but that's being unfair to oversimplify them that much. Tragically fallen evil men who don't think they're evil (with daddy issues) seems to fit much better. Even though that exact same description could fit Dr. Evil from the Austin Powers movies.
Nurglitch wrote:
Interesting there's a total Lovecraft shout-out when Lorgar reminisces about talking to Magnus about the nature of the universe in "the halls of Leng"...
It's very easy to see that chaos gods in the frame of Lovecraftian dieties: Perhaps the Emperor is in fact Nodens, who cast down Cthulhu himself? (And in any event, Cthulhu would whoop any of the 4 chaos Gods asses!)
The books have humanized many of the traitors but their actions speak louder than their words.
I feel the most sympathy for the loyalists within the official traitor legions. Its one thing to see your brother legion betray everything you've fought for another thing entirely to see your own do it.
I'm moreso referring to what H.P. Lovecraft actually wrote rather than the parasitic 'Mythos', because Lovecraft doesn't describe Cthulhu as a god, and makes no reference to a relationship between Cthulhu and Nodes, except to imply that they shared the same dreamlands of Earth.
I would say the series has definitely opened my eyes to the humanity of many of the legions.
I now feel quite different about the roles of the Alpha Legion, the Night Lords, the Thousand Sons and even the Iron Warriors(though their story has yet to be told). You see a lot of the goodness in the now-traitor legions and a lot of the bad in the loyalist ones
Many of the texts in the 41st millennium paint the traitor legions as loose cannons murdering untold numbers as they slowly drifted towards madness. however when you read tales of heresy you realize that legions like the space wolves were just as guilty as the rest of their brethren when it came to committing genocide on a massive scale.
One thing that has radically changed in my mind is the opinion of the Emperor. He went from an all knowing master of humanity, to an arrogant fool with an impossible dream.
many argue the fact and say that his sons should have known their place and trusted the Emperors judgment. Thats all fine and dandy for us mortals, but for DEMI-GODS like the primarchs, need-to-know just doesn't cut the mustard. In an age of enlightenment the Emperor withheld knowledge about the most sinister threat to life in our galaxy, the primordial annihilator.
Additionally as far as Lorgar is concerned, the Emperor should have embraced and encouraged his son, not cast him down to grovel in the ashes of monuments raised to the Emperor himself. I bet he's having a custode kick him in his withered bum for that one.
I'm moreso referring to what H.P. Lovecraft actually wrote rather than the parasitic 'Mythos', because Lovecraft doesn't describe Cthulhu as a god, and makes no reference to a relationship between Cthulhu and Nodes, except to imply that they shared the same dreamlands of Earth.
I'm 99% sure Nodens casting down Cthulhu is a Lovecraft original concept - alot of people demonize Derleth for writing in a more good/evil dualism (and they should) But the Nodens/Cthulhu thing is Lovecrafts own hand - I'm not sure if it appears in the actual story where Cthulhu awakens for a short period, but thats hardly the only story with Cthulhu, at least as a named presence, featuring in it.
Per Cthulhu being worshiped (Sure, lovecraft may not come out and call Cthulhu a 'God' but hes certainly regarded as one in the context of his eponymous short story), hes worshiped within "The Call of Cthulhu" by a swamp cult, and implied to be heavily worshiped elsewhere.
For what its worth, its actually Nodens who is the more enigmatic deity - no one knows why he cast down Cthulhu, what exact relationship he has with humanity and the earth (if any).
Carlovonsexron wrote:I'm 99% sure Nodens casting down Cthulhu is a Lovecraft original concept - alot of people demonize Derleth for writing in a more good/evil dualism (and they should) But the Nodens/Cthulhu thing is Lovecrafts own hand - I'm not sure if it appears in the actual story where Cthulhu awakens for a short period, but thats hardly the only story with Cthulhu, at least as a named presence, featuring in it.
Okay... I've read every Lovecraft compilation that's available in print at least 3 times and I would say with pretty firm certainty that there's nothing in there about Nodens casting down Cthulhu.
I could be wrong, but I would be pretty surprised about it. Politics, Religion, my childrens' names; these things I'm hazy on. H.P. Lovecraft I feel like I know a thing or two about.
I can't say that it has for me as I play both Imperial and Chaos armies. However, reading the HH books has made a impact on how I look at the armies. They make it much more interesting when writing a fluffy list.
I'm no longer of the opinion that Chaos is evil. They want only to survive and the Master of Mankind broke his promise to them after making a deal for the gene-forging abilities to create the Primarchs and the Astartes, in return the Emperor was to inform Mankind of the nature of the Warp so that they could join together united, rather than divided by fear and war like all the other races of the galaxy have done.
Choas is not Good or Evil...It is just Chaotic
So in a time when the Imperium strifed for order It was evil...
With prewarning that I'm probably not going to read a wall of philosophical text, I disagree. Chaos is predominantly negative in its actions and motives.
All'za dem humies iz stooopid, and da onlee wurf o' dem iz fer fightin' an' steelin' dere stuff fer da Meks ta skrap moar waggonz an' buggiez and deffkoptas an' gargants fer da nexx WAAAGH!!!
No the HH series hasn't really changed my opinion of the Verse, I was chaos all the way, cept when it comes to the Wolves or my Home-brew chapter. Now I like Chaos more, but I suppose the books have made me like some of the loyalists more.
Oh and Manchu you've always known my allegiance, you after all gave me my signature.
Nurglitch wrote:So? So's the sun. You don't blame the sun if you get burned. It's been a big theme in the Horus Heresy books.
I disagree - I think you're reading that particular interpretation into things.
It is pretty clear that Chaos in the 40K Galaxy is really not a good thing and can certainly be categorized as 'Evil', especially in terms of its aims and ultimate end results.
Nurglitch wrote:So? So's the sun. You don't blame the sun if you get burned. It's been a big theme in the Horus Heresy books.
If the sun was sentient and lured people to think it was benign by either appealing to their most base desires or outright trickery, and then took delight in the despair it caused by enslaving and destroying them then I would say it was evil as well.
If the sun was sentient and lured people to think it was benign by either appealing to their most base desires or outright trickery, and then took delight in the despair it caused by enslaving and destroying them then I would say it was evil as well.
So bascically People are chaotic anyway and Choas just emphasizes this?
Does Chaos actually take delight at the Despair and Enslavement or the at the chaos of It?
I really don't know how you could have read all of those books and not see that Chaos enjoys the suffering it causes. Fulgrim and A Thousand Sons in particular.
Also, the emphasis bit is not even close to the point I was making.
Brother Heinrich wrote:Additionally as far as Lorgar is concerned, the Emperor should have embraced and encouraged his son, not cast him down to grovel in the ashes of monuments raised to the Emperor himself. I bet he's having a custode kick him in his withered bum for that one.
On this, i've been thinking, what if the Emperors hand was forced into reprimanding Lorgar? He has to do the father thing sometime and keep his Children kind of in line. I guess it was the same case at Nikea with the likes of Mortarion complaining to him about the use of psykers.
Why was Guilliman there and only him and his legion? I guess it could be because they were the biggest Legion and if things soured they could've kept the Word Bearers in line. But i'm kinda thinking that Guilliman had been moaning to the Emperor and he decided that he had to step in to keep the peace. Maybe the Emperor was a great guy after all and fatherly and tried to keep his kids happy?
Also with the Chaos Gods saying how the Emperor went back on his deal. Maybe this is a half truth, which is often what the forces of Chaos speak. Perhaps they afford the Emperor the same kind of deal as they did to Horus, but realising the threat that they posed, declined and the Chaos powers were sucking grapes until the Primarch Project presented itself.
There are humans who delight in the suffering of other people. Does this mean all humans are evil?
Chaos is ultimate freedom, which includes freedom from morals. It is amoral. If you want to call Chaos evil anyway remember that it is a direct mirror of humanity. It is exactly as evil or good as humanity, but unrestrained by the rules that may stop humanity from acting upon any evil intent.
Think of it this way - you have two psychopaths. They are both equally as evil in intent. They both desire to inflict harm upon others for their own gratification. However, one of the psychopaths is physically weak and therefore incapable of acting upon his intentions. Does this make him less evil? Less of a threat, certainly, but that isn't the same thing.
As for the books, they didn't change my opinion of the Chaos much. I was always of the opinion that the Emperor was an imcompetent tyrant who was elevated beyond his actual accomplishments by 10,000 years of worship by the Imperium, and that Chaos was the better option.
Rube wrote:
Think of it this way - you have two psychopaths. They are both equally as evil in intent. They both desire to inflict harm upon others for their own gratification. However, one of the psychopaths is physically weak and therefore incapable of acting upon his intentions. Does this make him less evil? Less of a threat, certainly, but that isn't the same thing.
Rube wrote:
Think of it this way - you have two psychopaths. They are both equally as evil in intent. They both desire to inflict harm upon others for their own gratification. However, one of the psychopaths is physically weak and therefore incapable of acting upon his intentions. Does this make him less evil? Less of a threat, certainly, but that isn't the same thing.
Unless he has a bazooka
Yeah that example doesn't work if you assume the psychopaths are American and can, like, buy an RPG from their local cornershop. :/
It hasn't changed my opinion, but I do see the tragedy in it all. Some of the Legions were unwitting pawns in all of this.
What amazes me is how influenced the traitors were.
The Alpha Legion were convinced by a bunch of Xenos to turn.
Lorgar (I think was weak to begin with) takes way too much advice from subordinates to the point where he is being "Handled".
Horus, although he seems to know what he's doing, seems to have been tricked.
Magnus, though loyal, lets his own arrogance get the better of him. I wouldn`t say he was a traitor, just a misguided primarch. He's the most tragic of the bunch and to be frank, Horus tricked the Wolves into attacking them. i wonder how he would feel knowing that truth...
Fulgrims obsession with perfection. He's the other real tragedy as well
Night Haunter is a psychopath to start with so no surprise there.
But you also have to look at the Imperial side.
Russ gets tricked into attacking Magnus.
The jury is still out on the Dark Angels.
And I'm still not convinced about Rogal Dorn. He seems insecure.
The HH series shows just how fallible the Primarchs are.
No, there's a reason why The First Heretic mentions that 'Aurelian' means 'the sun', or that Horus was one of many Egyptian sun gods, or that Magnus has a single eye, or that legions like the Night Lords and the modern Imperium itself exist 'in the dark'. The Horus Heresy made no difference to the Astartes' program of invasion and genocide. Whether the Powers are gods or demons depends on your perspective, hence the neutral 'daemons'.
The Word Bearers and Lorgar don't decide to be evil, they decide that knowing the truth and preserving humanity is the greatest good, worth committing unbelievable atrocities. After all, that's what they've been doing since their inception, trying to preserve humanity by delivering the good news at the point of a sword.
In that sense the Word Bearer's reaction to the Emperor's rebuke is remarkably human. They don't change who they are or how they act simply because it's revealed they've been wrong all along, they adapt their beliefs to their actions.
So yeah, Chaos feeds on suffering. So what? So do we. That's why there's plenty of moral schemas out there by which any amount of suffering is morally right. Consequentially speaking, suffering is justified if the ends outweigh the means. Deontologically speaking, suffering is justified if otherwise a moral rule is broken, particularly if it's a just moral dessert (mmmh, dessert). From the perspective of virtue-ethics suffering is necessary for building good character.
The Emperor feels the Word Bearers should suffer the destruction of Khur, children should suffer the loss of their humanity to become Astartes, and requires that many branches of humanity should suffer extinction.
We feel that evil-doers should suffer punishment, that animals are delicious, and we let people starve because their suffering is worth our freedom (see Amartya Sen's Development as Freedom). How about that?
I think the problem is that people mistake the notion of an indifferent and arbitrary universe as being the same as the notion of an actively inimical universe. Perhaps the blame goes to the usual binary thinking of "Hey, the universe doesn't love me, therefore it hates me." I suspect it's a tension between the traditionally man-centered universe of loving and caring gods, and the other traditionally god-centered universe. Maybe it's just difficult for some people to understand the notion of fear and trembling before god, as if there's some sort of problem whereby god needs to be reconciled with evil.
Maybe that's why I like the Horus Heresy series, because the Emperor is the one that cares about humanity, but in trying to be its shepherd he puts himself at such a distance from humanity that he's as much an amoral force at the Chaos Gods themselves. Conversely the Chaos Gods don't care about humanity when they notice it, and their servants pretend to care insofar as it gives them a leg (or tentacle...) up in the war in heaven.
Crantor:
Have you read the part in The First Heretic where Lorgar, in the meeting aboard the Fidelitas Lex, notes that the Alpha Legion is in rebellion because: "[The Imperium] has failed us...by being flawed to its core, imperfect in its pursuit of a perfect culture, and in its weakness against the encroachment of xenos breeds that seek to twist humanity to alien ends"?
(I always like the evil side, because it's more interesting^^)
My view on the loyalist faction had changed. I don't see it as good anymore. Not good at all. Before i was just thinking they were the true savior of mankind (well i knew that they are not so nice as propaganda says)and all that ... disliking them because of their boringness.
Just started to read IA 3, and it supports my change in view (although perhaps not considered as "good fluff" by some all i've read sounds believable)
So in that term my support for the Chaos faction has risen. But in the same run the interest in "loyalist factions" / "the Imperium" has increased because of that. Quite funny to realise this hehe. Still hate smurfs and yellow submarines. Iron within
Keep reminds me of a pet peeve (yes, I have lots of those), but what's up with people believing that choosing the wrong horn of a moral dilemma is interesting?
I see it the other way: Moral monsters are not more interesting than compulsive saints. You know what they're going to do and there's no conflict in any decisions they make. Take Soul Hunter for example: The Night Lords do bad things to people in out-groups and to each other, but Talos is interesting (unlike the foil in his squad) because he faces the moral dilemma of staying true to the Night Lord's mandate or abandoning it in favour of service to the Chaos Gods.
Which is probably something that needs mention: The Chaos Gods may be amoral, but their followers are some real evil bastiches, although only complete lunatics like Kharn are moral monsters since they both mean harm, and don't face a moral dilemma in inflicting that on anyone and everyone within reach.
Likewise morons like Sigismund are great foils for the rebel villains because they're just as fanatical.
