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Post by: Melissia
This post is a rant, for which I make no apologies. Opinions will be stated, and facts will be cited.
Mostly... I was inspired to write this rant simply out of annoyance with the lack of attention the gaming industry gives female gamers. I look at every new FPS game to be released on Steam... and... not a single one lets me play a female character. This might seem petty-- and I know ther's plenty of worthless people out there that would flame me for holding this position-- but there's already a googol of male characters, and most of them are the same. It would be nice to see a well-done female character in an FPS game that was actually PLAYABLE in the single player and multiplayer modes.
There's, inevitably, going to be someone saying that "you shouldn't have to have a female character to enjoy the game". No, I don't... I quite enjoyed a lot of games with male leads-- from the days of DOS gaming (Quake, Duke Nukem, etc) to more modern games such as Half Life 2, Metro 2033, and Call of Honor / Medal of Duty series.. It's just that that's pretty much every single one, and most of them blend in together where I can't tell one game's characters apart from another, and there is barely a one where one can play a female character, never mind a female lead.
Most recently, I was looking at Home Front on Steam. Its setting was awesome, and it was a perfect setup to allow for female characters-- but they didn't put them in, saying it was too much work to do it. And just like that, there goes my anticipation for the game... it's extremely disheartening to see, time and time again, that game developers really just don't give a damn about your demographics.
Looking at the list of FPS games that came out this year. This is based mostly off of searches and the company's own previews, as well as personal knowledge in the case of games that I actually own.
MAG: No playable female characters.
BioShock 2: Female playable characters in multiplayer only.
Aliens vs. Predator: No playable female characters.
NecroVisioN: Lost Company: No playable female characters.
Battlefield: Bad Company 2: No playable female characters.
Operation Wolfsburg: No playable female characters.
Metro 2033: No playable female characters.
Red Steel 2: No playable female characters.
Terror Attack: Project Fateh: No playable female characters.
Sniper: Ghost Warrior: No playable female characters.
Singularity: No playable female characters.
Terrorist Takedown 3: No playable female characters.
Halo Reach: Option to be female as the lead.
GoldenEye 007 Wii: No playable female characters.
Call of Duty: Black Ops: No playable female characters.
So that leads this year to be a total of two thus far... but only if you count multiplayer-only as one (let's call it one half, as that's really only half the game anyway). So 1.5 female leads this year, and 15 male leads. A pity Halo Reach isn't going to be released any time soon on the PC, because I really wanted to try it out... but I don't have a 360 (nor am I going to in the foreseeable future). And when it IS released, it'll be on Vista or 7, not on XP (similar to Halo 2's release on Vista only), meaning I'll have to do hardware and software upgrades to play it when ti's released... and by the time it gets released on PC it'll be old news. Saddening... it looks like a great game.
Well, that's enough ranting from me. I'll go over here and get in the flame retardant suit now.
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
Could you make a list if all non sports games and whether or not they have playable females? Just kinda curious if this is just a FPS thing or if it's across the board.
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Post by: Melissia
That would be a TON of games I'd have to go through...
But MMOs and RPGs are much better at this than FPS games, that's for sure. I also didn't include 3PS games, either, but they aren't much better.
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Post by: Asherian Command
What about mass effect??!?!?!?
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Post by: The Dreadnote
Being a dude, I don't share your disappointment in games that lack playable female characters - that said, I certainly appreciate the option when it's there. I usually play a female character when I get the chance, partly out of boredom of the vast array of generic male leads.
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
Ok. Understandable.
Anyways, it sounds like most of those games have the single player mode based around some fake war. It could be nothing other than Generic Armyman shooting other Generic Armymen with Lemming-like survival skills = profit!.
Asherian Command: That was an action role-playing game. If she adds Mass Effect, she might as well add Fallout New Vegas.
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Post by: Melissia
Metro 2033 had a nice storyline. Sadly, women were basically relegated to sitting on the sidelines weeping (I wish I was kidding).
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Post by: Squig_herder
GoldenEye 007 for the Wii has Nataylia for online
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Post by: Melissia
It does?
That's weird, it doesn't show her on any of the videos.
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
I know it won't be until next year (at best) but I believe Brink will have the options for Female Player Characters ( They are allowing you to customise damn near everything else. Would look stupid if they didn't add gender.)
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Post by: Slarg232
You know, I don't understand this either: Sex sells, so you think more FPS' would have female leads.
Of course, if they did that, you know that at least ONE game is going to be made where you can't see straight underneath your femme fatale.
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Post by: The Dreadnote
I can see exactly no reasons for avoiding upskirt shots 
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Post by: Redbeard
Did left4dead2 come out this year or last? I can't remember. It has a playable female lead.
What about games with no playable male leads. Tomb Raider, Portal... Resident Evil?
At some point a game designer has to weigh story, and development costs versus diversity. If they need to record separate soundtracks, body captures and all for two characters instead of one, the development costs increase.
I throughly enjoyed portal, even though it didn't have a playable male character. I don't think it is all that serious a concern for roughly 10% of the titles to have female leads given that only roughly 10% of the players are female. (And yes, I know women make up a significant percentage of gaming as a whole, but those stats are skewed by things like farmville, which counts as a game. Women are not a sizable percentage of FPS gamers.)
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
Slarg232 : Don't want too many 12 year olds playing with thier joysticks I guess.
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Post by: Melissia
Redbeard wrote:Women are not a sizable percentage of FPS gamers.)
Cite your source on this, or define "sizable" 
Regardless, I would say that a good deal of the reason why FPS games don't attract women is precisely because of this. All the games are marketed towards men to begin with. And the number of female gamers in all genres is increasing as time goes on, so that's more reason to produce such titles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Redbeard wrote:I throughly enjoyed portal, even though it didn't have a playable male character.
Yeah, and I enjoyed Half Life 2 despite it having a male lead, that doesn't make my concerns any less valid.
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
Melissia wrote:Metro 2033 had a nice storyline. Sadly, women were basically relegated to sitting on the sidelines weeping (I wish I was kidding).
Well, it was based off a novel. The storyline was changed a fair bit, but gender-flipping the lead character would have been going too far. As for the relative lack of women: Artyom is out in the tunnels or ruins of Moscow for most of the game. He doesn't get to explore stations much. Read the novel, and it's a totally different story.
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Post by: Melissia
And yet, it's still the case in the game.
Just because it's based off of a novel doesn't mean jack to me... besides, the game was really only listed as a game that I enjoyed, regardless of the gender of its lead.
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Post by: Redbeard
Melissia wrote:
Regardless, I would say that a good deal of the reason why FPS games don't attract women is precisely because of this. All the games are marketed towards men to begin with. And the number of female gamers in all genres is increasing as time goes on, so that's more reason to produce such titles.
Quote your source blah blah.
See, I don't believe the number of female gamers in "all" genres is increasing at the same rate as the number of gamers is. The number of gamers is going up across the board. But men and women are attracted to different things in their games. Men prefer head-to-head competition, women prefer cooperation. Men are more likely to play sports games, women are more into games with stories.
You're right, the number of female gamers in all genres is increasing, but that doesn't mean that the percentage is increasing in any specific genre. There are more games being produced that appeal to women, but they're not FPS games. The people in marketing at software companies aren't stupid. You market games that boys prefer to boys, and games that girls prefer to girls. That might not be your preference, but that's how it is.
Yeah, and I enjoyed Half Life 2 despite it having a male lead, that doesn't make my concerns any less valid.
It might not make your concern less valid, but you completely failed to address the very reasonable explanations for why it is this way. I work in the software industry. All projects run over budget and over time as is. You're asking them to add complexity and cost for a very minimal difference in sales. You disagree? Get your legion of chick FPS players to boycott any game without a female lead, and see exactly how much (or how little) they notice the difference in sales.
As an aside, be careful what you ask for too. My wife, and most of her friends (who are also gamers) are huge Final Fantasy fans. (Go figure, it's a game with a story and a plot, so the girls like it). But FF11 (I think) had some feature that was clearly aimed at women, (powers changed when the characters changed their outfits, or something like that), and they all hated that one, for that reason.
There's two ways to include female leads. One is to target them to male players, ala tomb raider or tekken. Give her huge tits and show some skin and voila, female lead character. The other is to make realistic female characters that are obviously targeted for female players (Zoey in Left4Dead). Given that FPS games are marketed towards males (and you can complain all you want about how this isn't fair, but that's the economics of the situation), I'd be concerned that asking for more female leads results in more of the first type and not more of the second.
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Post by: Melissia
Redbeard wrote:Quote your source blah blah.
Myself, as a female gamer. I was only offering an opinion from my own point of view. Quite a few reasons why I often skip over some games is because this very reason. It's not like there's any shortage of them.
It's not like I'm the only one.
http://www.gamesradar.com/f/9-things-real-female-gamers-hate-about-gaming/a-20100326161620941082
You market games that boys prefer to boys, and games that girls prefer to girls.
... which are not as different as you think they are.
And actually, first person shooters is one of the areas that women are stated to play in "significant numbers" by industry insiders such as Torrie Dorrel ( VP of marketing for Sony Online Entertainment).
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-02-28/tech/women.gamers_1_women-gamers-female-gamers-entertainment-software-association?_s=PM:TECH
"Women are out there in significant numbers playing MMOs, action games, first-person shooters," Dorrell explains. "What is lacking in the equation are women behind these games."
That's right, the VP of marketing in Sony Online is saying that the industry has a marketing problem. GAming is a young industry, it hasn't yet figured out how to market to all of its potential demographics.
I could probably toss links at you all day if I wanted to. I just hope you aren't like the last dude who asked me to cite my sources and just toss them aside without providing anything to support HIS assertions...
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Post by: Redbeard
Melissia wrote:Redbeard wrote:Quote your source blah blah.
Myself, as a female gamer.
Okay, I can buy that. My sources, therefore, will be my wife, and her female gamer friends, all of whom are rabid gamers owning multiple consoles (yes, the consoles are all hers, I play PC games) and handheld platforms.
Not one of them plays a FPS. I tried to get my wife to play Left4Dead, as it's a cooperative thing and we both have steam, but she's just not into it. What she likes:
Final Fantasy - most any of them.
Harvest Moon, plus sequels
Plants vs Zombies
Professor Laten(?) puzzle games
Angry Birds
Gardening/Cooking mama
Mario games
And this is pretty typical among her friends too. FPS games and sports games are simply not on the list. Certainly no less empirical than you citing yourself.
And while I don't want to completely discount the link you posts, you have to consider the source. The real women I know like the 'games for girls' that your 9-things link says they don't. Okay, those two women writers might want to play Doom. But are they representative of most female gamers, or just the most hardcore competitive types who would write a blog about gaming? I think the part of that article where she said "we don't always want to talk about games" is pretty indicative of most female gamers. My wife spends 10-20 hours a week playing her games, during commutes, or downtime in the evenings, but she rarely talks about them, and certainly doesn't feel the need to write a blog about it. She picks the games she likes and plays them, but they don't define her. Automatically Appended Next Post: And another source - I've developed and run an online world for 13 years. In that time, there have been several thousand people who have played it, and it's been mentioned on a video game TV show in Australia (of all places, and if I could recall the link, I'd post it).
Now, as with most online worlds these days, there are various things people can do. They can go beat up monsters. They can go beat up other players. They can talk, form political groups, or craft items and build into the game world. They can even hook up and create child characters.
So, with my several thousand players as my data source, I can say pretty definitively, that the female players are more interested in crafting, politics, jocking for position in organizations, and roleplaying/telling stories, and the male players are more interested in building up their characters and seeing who can kill each other.
There are some exceptions. There are some male players who play crafters, and some female players who are into the whole player-killing competitive thing. But these are just that, exceptions. When given a free-form environment to play in, the genders really do tend to pick these same options. And it's been like that for years.
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Post by: Melissia
I would go so far as to say that the Vice President of Marketing at Sony would have a SLIGHTLY higher sample.
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Post by: Slarg232
Redbeard wrote:Melissia wrote:
Regardless, I would say that a good deal of the reason why FPS games don't attract women is precisely because of this. All the games are marketed towards men to begin with. And the number of female gamers in all genres is increasing as time goes on, so that's more reason to produce such titles.
Quote your source blah blah.
See, I don't believe the number of female gamers in "all" genres is increasing at the same rate as the number of gamers is. The number of gamers is going up across the board. But men and women are attracted to different things in their games. Men prefer head-to-head competition, women prefer cooperation. Men are more likely to play sports games, women are more into games with stories.
*lifts up shirt*
well, they don't look any bigger.......
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Post by: Cheesecat
I know a girl who likes FPS's, MMO's, fighting games and RPG's. She might like other genres but I don't talk much about video games around her so I wouldn't know, probably helps that I don't play them much myself.
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Post by: Melissia
I don't talk about games much, myself. I tend to talk about the lore of 40k more than the game. And yet, that doesn't stop me from playing. Nor does it stop me from playing an FPS game which doesn't have much of a semblance of a story, such as Team Fortress 2.
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Post by: Redbeard
Melissia wrote:I would go so far as to say that the Vice President of Marketing at Sony would have a SLIGHTLY higher sample.
Sure, but she said the same thing I did. That article isn't talking about female characters in games, it's talking about female game developers. As a software engineer, I can attest to this fact - there are very few female developers in either gaming or business development. But, let's put out the other quotes from the article you linked that back up what I'm saying...
In fact, Dorrell spends so much time gaming, she has risen to the level of "officer" in a "guild" playing "EverQuest 2" online.
The first example given of a female gamer, and look, it's just what I said. She's doing the politics thing, playing the guild aspect of the game.
Studies and sales data have shown that women are more likely to play hand-held casual games, such as the Nintendo DS, along with social oriented games such as "The Sims," where women make up more than 55 percent of players.
Oh look, there she goes again, presenting industry data that backs up what I said, and what the empirical evidence that my wife and her friends provided. Women like to play casual games and social games. You're right, the VP of Sony's gaming division has more data. But her data doesn't support your position. As I stated earlier, development dollars go where the market goes. That means that they market the games boys like to boys, and they market the games that girls like to girls. I'm sorry you're one of the exceptions and that you can't find your female lead, but I hope that you can, at least, understand why that is.
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Post by: Melissia
Redbeard wrote:Sure, but she said the same thing I did. That article isn't talking about female characters in games, it's talking about female game developers.
... and yet, if you read it, you would notice that the quote I gave came directly from the article, stated directly by her.
That women make up 55% of Sims gamers means very little to the percentage of women who play FPS games, which she said was "significant". They are two separate genres that can be enjoyed by the same person.
I've played sims-like games myself...
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Post by: asimo77
I think it's worth mentioning that most developers are staffed by males (an assumption but I don't think it's too far-fetched). Naturally they are going to write stories for male leads, animate male characters, voice them, and so on. Just feels more natural to use the same sex as yourself. If you were creating anything I would think you were more than likely to use your gender as the one for your lead charcter.
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Post by: LordofHats
I like the way this guy thinks.
That said, being upset a genre that is dominated by multiplayer, with single player as a side show in most cases, doesn't enough enough chicks in the lead role is a little silly. FPS games have never been particularly well known for their stellar story lines and marvelous character development. They're known for circle strafing, fragging, tea bagging, and twelve year olds screaming HACKER who shouldn't have the game in first place.
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Post by: Ifalna
I would hands down take a fps game with no female character over one that had the generic barely clothed metal thong wearing one shoved in to "Balance" the gender ratio.
I have never been turned off a game due to there not being a female playable char, but I have been by the female presence being stupidly oversexual. Some Genres do need a decent balance to hit a certain level of realism, mostly RPG's. Action games are rarely story based enough to actually be effected by only having a 1 sex lead, and it is very rare for them to not have a strong female presence, which is a combo taken directly from the vast majority of action movies.
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Post by: VikingScott
FPS are for shooting pretend terrorists not for crying over a story. Ergo: does it really matter? You're still killing pretend terrorists.
The last time any game had any sembalance of a character that I cared about was one that had random one liners that would crop up (IE Duke Nukem, borderlands charcters.)
Go kill some more pretend terrorists then realise that story/lead is more tacked on to a FPS rather than be the main bit. And you can't ever see your own character as it's first person.
And with that. I will go kill some more pretend terrorists.
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Post by: Melissia
Yes, and I care how?
I'd like to play a badass female character in a shooter for once. It hasn't really happened very much, and usually you're right, she IS done for sex appeal. That doesn't mean that's how it has to be, nor does it mean that women can't be done properly in the setting. So why should I want to settle for less, again, while you don't have to?
Say, why not have a female soldier in a modern army? Is that realistic? Of course it is, it's not like it's not already happening, it's not like twenty minutes into the future it won't be even more common. And there's already at least one game that does it. Now if only Combat Arms wasn't inherently flawed for being styled off of Korean MMOs. But major releases never even bother to try, hell, most of hte time they don't even have female models in them period, not even as NPCs in single player. Because they are being lazy and they aren't marketing to us, mostly, and that is exactly what's pissing me off.
Or even a non-soldier. It's not like all modern games have to be about the army. Crimecraft comes to mind, but then again it's a 3PS rather than FPS, and it sucks anyway so it's hardly a good example, and besides, it also sexualizes its female PCs-- high heels, high skirts, and low cut tops are the order of the day. So a more appropriate one would be Left 4 Dead. Zoey was actually the most popular character in Left 4 dead (poll by Valve)-- there's pretty much noone like her. Yet nobody is taking advantage of this sort of popularity and adding these kinds of characters to their games, making me wonder about the (lack of) capability of the gaming industry's marketing departments.
Or hell, a badass female lead in a futuristic setting for an FPS game. These are a bit more common, from Samus Aran on the Wii, to Global Agenda on the PC, and a few more. Yet even here, where the rigors of fiction take place and lower the barrier for believability (yes, I've seen and heard some male gamers openly despise Zoey and Rochelle for this reason, as their sexist beliefs are so ingrained in their heads that they can't comprehend a woman actually doing anything heroic), it's incredibly rare to see a woman for any purpose other than sex appeal.
Hell, older games such as Quake or Unreal Tournament or Doom managed to do it, yet newer games seem incapable of it, the devs usually citing that it's too much work. Unreal Tournament 3, for example had believable female characters who were armored up like everyone else, and it's a pity the game itself was kinda flawed and unpopular. Halo Reach has them (and it basically only really means new voice acting there, which I'm perfectly fine with), but as before, I'm not going to be able to play THAT for a long time no matter how much I want it. Maybe I should try and sell my PS3 so I can buy a 360 because it's not like my PS3 has many games I actually want to play these days...
Will I still play FPS games? Of course I will, I like the genre for it gameplay.
I just haven't been enjoying it as much as I would like.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
NOTE: Though technically an adventure game more than a shooter, Metroid Prime features a female protagonist in a FP environment. Samus Aran is around 6ft 2in, weighs in at 260lb and could break a man's spine if she so wished due to her genetic modifications by an alien race.
Just saying, FP viewpoints are no limitation to the use of female characters, as Halo: Reach has proved.
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Post by: Redbeard
Melissia wrote:... and yet, if you read it, you would notice that the quote I gave came directly from the article, stated directly by her.
I obviously read it because I quotes other parts of the article. However, I'm able to read an article for what it is really saying versus what someone wants it to say. You'll note that she includes FPS last in that list of games. And, honestly, I bet she said it as a nod to the genre. The genres she cited data for didn't include FPS games. In fact, I can't seem to find numbers for that anywhere. I've found tons of articles that are reporting things like 40% of video gamers are female, or that if you only include online games like Farmville or Sims, women outnumber men about 2-to-1. But all of these articles mention the appeal of the casual game and the social game as being responsible for this demographic, and note that males still significantly outnumber females in traditionally competitive games like sports and shooters. Right, women are gaining marketshare. They're just not gaining marketshare in every single sub-genre. The fact that more titles are being published that seem to be want women want to play is a good thing. Bemoaning the fact that development efforts to include women in genres that most women don't find interesting to begin with is missing the point. Spending 20% more time and effort on development for a 10% additional gain in sales is not good math. Melissia wrote:
Hell, older games such as Quake or Unreal Tournament or Doom managed to do it, yet newer games seem incapable of it, the devs usually citing that it's too much work. Unreal Tournament 3, for example had believable female characters who were armored up like everyone else, and it's a pity the game itself was kinda flawed and unpopular. Halo Reach has them (and it basically only really means new voice acting there, which I'm perfectly fine with), but as before, I'm not going to be able to play THAT for a long time no matter how much I want it. Maybe I should try and sell my PS3 so I can buy a 360 because it's not like my PS3 has many games I actually want to play these days...
In Doom, graphics were sprites. A sprite is a collection of pixels that look like a little guy, and by having several of them, you can create a semblance of a 3d critter. You scale them for perspective and display one of a handful to compensate for angles. Adding a new sprite is relatively easy. In Quake, they moved to polygons and skins, but since all you have to do to change the gender of a character is change the skin, it's still a fairly easy process. Modern games aren't like that. Modern games strive for realism in how things appear, and so they use actors and motion captures to create how their characters look, and move. It's not just a matter of applying a new skin anymore, it's a matter of hiring new actors, and generating all that information another time. They record dialog using voice actors, rather than just putting text on the screen. You say, "well, they could do this before, how come they can't now", and unfortunately, the answer to that advancements across the board in how video games play have increased the complexity of the development process to the point where things that were easy before are now quite involved. It's the price paid for the extra level of realism. Left4Dead, by its nature, is investing in four characters, so making one of them female doesn't add to the development cycle. But if the story is Bob versus the Undead, adding the option to make it Betty versus the Undead doubles the required characterization process. It IS a technical cost, and that's why they don't do it anymore, even though they used to.
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Post by: Melissia
Redbeard wrote:Right, women are gaining marketshare. They're just not gaining marketshare in every single sub-genre.
Cite your source.
EVERY single study and poll and etc that I've read contradicts this-- women in gaming, both as players and developers, are more common nowadays than before across the board. Is it an even growth across the board? No. But some genres haven't exactly been marketed to women to begin with, so that's hardly surprisin.
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Post by: Redbeard
Melissia wrote:Redbeard wrote:Right, women are gaining marketshare. They're just not gaining marketshare in every single sub-genre.
Cite your source.
I just said, I was looking for any article, at all, that says anything about market share for women in FPS games, and could not find any. What I did find was a lot that said women are gaining market share in gaming in general, and that they all mention causal and social games as the cause.
I can't cite a source that doesn't exist.
EVERY single study and poll and etc that I've read contradicts this-- women in gaming, both as players and developers, are more common nowadays than before across the board. Is it an even growth across the board? No. But some genres haven't exactly been marketed to women to begin with, so that's hardly surprisin.
More common is a relative term and doesn't mean a lot in terms of market share. If one more girl plays an FPS this year than last, then female FPS players are more common. They're not a more relevant percentage though. Ten more players doesn't mean squat in terms of the market. We're not talking about all gaming here. I've already acknowledged that women have gained significant market share in gaming as a whole. We're talking, very specifically, about FPS games.
Cite one source that definitively states, with data, that the percentage FPS players who are female has increased significantly (say, 5% or more) in the last five years, and I'll bow to your superiour googling ability. Cite one that shows that the percentage of FPS players who are female is higher than 25% of all FPS players and I'll graciously agree that FPS developers should make more of an effort to market FPS games to women.
But, I don't think that data exists. And, if female FPS players account for less than 25% of the FPS market, then I'm sorry, I think that game developers are simply spending their development and marketing dollars where it makes sense, making titles for boys that boys typically like, and making titles for girls that girls typically like. The fact that you're an exception doesn't change the wisdom of their choices.
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Post by: Melissia
Redbeard wrote:I just said, I was looking for any article, at all, that says anything about market share for women in FPS games
I already posted one. Sony's VP of marketing specifically said that there was now a significant amount of female gamers in the FPS genre (along with Action and MMOs).
If the marketshare of female gamers wasn't growing, there would be no reason for them to say that, yes?
Yes.
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Post by: Redbeard
That article included no data. It included no marketshare information. It didn't single out FPS games, it included them as an example of a type of game. It did, of course, mention that most women gamers played casual games and online social games like the sims.
Show me numbers, not some propaganda speech by a woman who is pushing an agenda.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
The main games my wife wants at the moment are Left4Dead and Red Dead Redemption and that's hardly a new thing, she used to be a big HalfLife gamer. She does however appreciate being able to choose female characters in like like Morrowind.
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
With vague reference to the subject... Alyx was, in my opinion, an extremely tacky addition to Half-Life 2 that ruined the atmosphere of a game that I had really enjoyed up until that point.
I sometimes ask 'what were they thinking' but, of course, I know exactly why she's there. It pisses me right off.
That's my little rant. Nothing against women in games, but that just bugged me hard.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Redbeard wrote:That article included no data. It included no marketshare information. It didn't single out FPS games, it included them as an example of a type of game. It did, of course, mention that most women gamers played casual games and online social games like the sims.
I've made the exact same point in at least two nearly identical discussions, so its nice to see that I'm not the only person who comes to this conclusion. 
Melissia wrote:GoldenEye 007 Wii: No playable female characters.
If you're referring to the one that was originally produced for N64, you'd be interested to know that Perfect Dark was made by the same company and had a female protagonist.
Not that it really matters. FPS protagonists tend to be males, because statistically men and women have different interests. Anyone with any type of background in marketing will tell you that. There's a reason why there's different commercials on during MXC than Oprah.
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
My fiance is a gamer and she is more into the competitive side then cooperation so whoever said that earlier is generalizing.
My fiance also agrees with the OP. Personally the playable characters gender isn't that big of a deal to me, yes it can add to the story but for me it dosen't effect the game very much.
Gears of War 3 is supposed to have 2 playable female characters when it comes out.
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Post by: Slarg232
VikingScott wrote:FPS are for shooting pretend terrorists not for crying over a story. Ergo: does it really matter? You're still killing pretend terrorists.
The last time any game had any sembalance of a character that I cared about was one that had random one liners that would crop up (IE Duke Nukem, borderlands charcters.)
Go kill some more pretend terrorists then realise that story/lead is more tacked on to a FPS rather than be the main bit. And you can't ever see your own character as it's first person.
And with that. I will go kill some more pretend terrorists.
Clearly this man has never played Bioshock and then Bioshock 2: Minerva's Den.
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Post by: Melissia
Redbeard wrote:Show me numbers, not some propaganda speech by a woman who is pushing an agenda.
Why don't you try providing proof of your assertion that the women gaming demographic is so monolithic?
I can, and have, provided tons of links to places which show women are a very large (in fact, women are a larger online gaming demographic than men, and about fourty percent of the overall gaming population according to most sources, including the ESA itself) portion of the gaming population. Women are half the global population of humanity, and we're just as widely varying in personality, likes, and dislikes as men. The assumption that somehow we're somehow all the same or even just largely so is insulting and ignorant.
Meh. When you still have bull**** like THIS going on, marketing is doing a HIDEOUSLY bad job. That is downright insulting to a grown woman, when they're referred to that rack because of their gender regardless of age (and the average gamer is in their mid thirties according to the ESA). Then there's bull**** like the Della which further exacerbate the problem, as though that's a tech company rather than a gaming company it only goes to show the problem of marketers being ludicrously clumsy in dealing with the overall female demographic, acting as if we're all one monolithic group that only cares about pink and flowers and dresses and losing weight.
I hate marketers.
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Post by: Manchu
Moved from Video Games.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Melissia wrote:Meh. When you still have bull**** like THIS going on, marketing is doing a HIDEOUSLY bad job. T
Actually, considering how many of those things sell I'd say that the marketers are doing exactly what they're supposed to. That's also a horrendous example, since those games are aimed at children.
Newsflash: A lot of little girls like Bratz and princesses.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Yeah alot girls I know play COD and Halo and starcraft 2. And they owned me. Several times over.
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Post by: LordofHats
Slarg232 wrote:Clearly this man has never played Bioshock and then Bioshock 2: Minerva's Den.
He's generally correct though. Formula for an FPS: insert protagonist + firearms + generic bad guys = pew pew pew bam bam zap. Most FPS don't have a strong single player. Bioshock is an exception to the standard set up, and there are others, but usually the story is just an excuse for giving somebody lethal firearms and letting them go to town on someone. And it's all in most cases a side show as a marketing gimmick (play our epic campaign *cough* it sucks but it's there *cough*) than something actually worth noting as a masterpiece of story telling. So I agree with him. It doesn't really matter. You can substitute the dude for a chick in most FPS story lines and shockingly... nothing really changes because the gender of the player character is mostly irrelevant.
This could be true even in some genres that are heavy on story honestly. I could take Lightning from FFXIII, make her a dude, and the story isn't going to change much, because Lightning's gender isn't a major part of it. Bioware even makes it a priority in their games! Being one gender over another never changes anything but which fake-friend you can make out with.
And OP: Go play halo for a day. Random matchmaking. Let me know how many girls you find. You'll probably come across three or four over the course of a twelve hour stretch (and I've done plenty of those) and everyone else will be dudes. My PC clan has one female member (not including our clan leaders wife who hops on from time to time), and none of our associate alliances have any (and that's about a hundred players at least). Sorry. There just aren't as many female FPS gamers as you'd like to think. Playing these games for any given period of time makes that obvious. Granted, five years ago, I didn't find any girls on any of these games.
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Post by: Melissia
LordofHats wrote:This could be true even in some genres that are heavy on story honestly. I could take Lightning from FFXIII, make her a dude, and the story isn't going to change much, because Lightning's gender isn't a major part of it.
So why is there an issue with the request of there being more females?
I would like to play a female character in a good quality shooter game. Since obviously it doesn't really have to make any difference as far as story goes, it's merely an aesthetic concern-- and hell, if the characters are in power armor it's basically just an audio concern.
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Post by: LordofHats
Melissia wrote:LordofHats wrote:This could be true even in some genres that are heavy on story honestly. I could take Lightning from FFXIII, make her a dude, and the story isn't going to change much, because Lightning's gender isn't a major part of it.
So why is there an issue with the request of there being more females?
I would like to play a female character in a good quality shooter game. Since obviously it doesn't really have to make any difference as far as story goes, it's merely an aesthetic concern-- and hell, if the characters are in power armor it's basically just an audio concern.
My point is that there's no need to get upset about it. It'll happen as the female demographic increases. Bungie has already noted that women are playing more Halo, and what did they do? They catered to that demographic and made a female multiplayer model available (which in an FPS means more than a female single player character).
What you want is coming, the demographic just needs more time to grow.
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Post by: Redbeard
Melissia wrote:
I can, and have, provided tons of links to places which show women are a very large (in fact, women are a larger online gaming demographic than men, and about fourty percent of the overall gaming population according to most sources, including the ESA itself) portion of the gaming population.
And you still fail to grasp the distinction between gaming in general, and the specific style of game, FPS, that your original post complained about. Look, statistics about general gaming don't matter. I agree with you in terms of general gaming. Where is the data on FPS games?
Women are half the global population of humanity, and we're just as widely varying in personality, likes, and dislikes as men. The assumption that somehow we're somehow all the same or even just largely so is insulting and ignorant.
Get over it already. It has been like that, for both males and females, for decades. Look, they don't advertise cooking products during sports show and they don't advertise F-150 trucks during Oprah. That doesn't mean there are no women who watch sports, it doesn't mean there are no women who like trucks, it doesn't mean there are no men who watch Oprah, and it doesn't mean there are no men who cook. What it means is that marketers like to get the most bang for their buck, and that means hedging their bets where it is appropriate. Cry about it all you like, it's a fact.
You're just upset that your demographic doesn't include all of your personal preferences. Join the club. 90% of the ads I see on TV targeted to men (Trucks, cheap American beer, erectile dysfunction pills) don't interest me either.
Meh. When you still have bull**** like THIS going on, marketing is doing a HIDEOUSLY bad job.
I disagree. My wife, a grown woman of 35, has 2-3 of the titles on that shelf. She plays the cooking/gardening mama games a lot. Maybe you're the one that's out of touch. Furthermore, the titles on that shelf are clearly appropriate for "girls", you know, females 13 or under. I'm not upset that I've outgrown Bob the Builder games, why are you upset that you've outgrown the Little Mermaid?
Think of it another way. You're a grandparent, and your 10-year old granddaughter asked for a game for her DS for Christmas. You go into the game store. Are you happy that they've got a shelf like this there, or do you want to grab something random off the blood&guts shelf and hope she likes it, because girls and boys should all like the same stuff.
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Post by: Perkustin
In the UK games industry only 12% of staff are women (I shouldn't need to CITE anything look it up yourself if you don't [want to] believe me). This twelve percent encompasses a much wider range of expertise and interests, for example it is common for marketing, production (in the media sense not manufacturing sense),PR and HR staff to be female in game publishers/developers. As it is a good springboard into TV/Film/paper media. Based on this i would reckon that it is not statiscally unfounded to further diminish this 12% into those that are actually interested in the medium, (is the marketing man for pesticides intersted in killing insects? Not really. Profits? yes). So if LESS than twelve percent of women employed by the game industry are significantly intersted enough in games to develop them, that must mean a majority of the female gamer demographic must have only a casual interest. Im sorry but around 90% of your 'Sisters' only want to play 'Just Dance' and Warble drunkenly along with 'Singstar' or perhaps maybe stab boredly at the DS there BOYFRIEND bought them. Anecdotely (or the word i am tryin' to spell) a couple friends have done coding/game developy courses and have only spoke of maybe two females out of 60 odd. Though perhaps it is not scientific to extrapolate trends from one facet to a more generalised contexts, i notice this logic has been employed by the OP, so :-P....
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Post by: Cheesecat
Asherian Command wrote:Yeah alot girls I know play COD and Halo and starcraft 2. And they owned me. Several times over.
Also I should add that girl I mentioned earlier who plays FPS's, RPG's, Fighting games, etc. She has a younger sister as well, guess what she was doing on the PC, playing Halo a FPS.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Cheesecat wrote:Asherian Command wrote:Yeah alot girls I know play COD and Halo and starcraft 2. And they owned me. Several times over.
Also I should add that girl I mentioned earlier who plays FPS's, RPG's, Fighting games, etc. She has a younger sister as well, guess what she was doing on the PC, playing Halo a FPS.
Her name doesn't happen to be HaloGirlx51? And she camps on a ridge and shots sniper shells at my team then I come up right behind her with a shotgun and said "You just got sarged." is she?
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Post by: Cheesecat
Asherian Command wrote:Cheesecat wrote:Asherian Command wrote:Yeah alot girls I know play COD and Halo and starcraft 2. And they owned me. Several times over.
Also I should add that girl I mentioned earlier who plays FPS's, RPG's, Fighting games, etc. She has a younger sister as well, guess what she was doing on the PC, playing Halo a FPS.
Her name doesn't happen to be HaloGirlx51? And she camps on a ridge and shots sniper shells at my team then I come up right behind her with a shotgun and said "You just got sarged." is she?
I wouldn't know I only took a brief glance.
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Post by: Asherian Command
Cheesecat wrote:Asherian Command wrote:Cheesecat wrote:Asherian Command wrote:Yeah alot girls I know play COD and Halo and starcraft 2. And they owned me. Several times over.
Also I should add that girl I mentioned earlier who plays FPS's, RPG's, Fighting games, etc. She has a younger sister as well, guess what she was doing on the PC, playing Halo a FPS.
Her name doesn't happen to be HaloGirlx51? And she camps on a ridge and shots sniper shells at my team then I come up right behind her with a shotgun and said "You just got sarged." is she?
I wouldn't know I only took a brief glance.
Because if she is. Tell her this "Alpha 124 pwns you all."
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Post by: Cheesecat
Asherian Command wrote:Cheesecat wrote:Asherian Command wrote:Cheesecat wrote:Asherian Command wrote:Yeah alot girls I know play COD and Halo and starcraft 2. And they owned me. Several times over.
Also I should add that girl I mentioned earlier who plays FPS's, RPG's, Fighting games, etc. She has a younger sister as well, guess what she was doing on the PC, playing Halo a FPS.
Her name doesn't happen to be HaloGirlx51? And she camps on a ridge and shots sniper shells at my team then I come up right behind her with a shotgun and said "You just got sarged." is she?
I wouldn't know I only took a brief glance.
Because if she is. Tell her this "Alpha 124 pwns you all."
I sense someone wanting to inflate their ego and I'm supposed to be their pump. 
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Post by: dogma
Melissia wrote:
Regardless, I would say that a good deal of the reason why FPS games don't attract women is precisely because of this. All the games are marketed towards men to begin with. And the number of female gamers in all genres is increasing as time goes on, so that's more reason to produce such titles.
How would you market fps games to women? They're basically violence fantasies, and that doesn't jive with the traditional feminine archetype that female marketing plays off of.
Moreover, if you're right and people really are more attracted to playing characters of their gender, then any company that produces a game with a female lead risk alienating male fps gamers, which is a far larger group than female fps gamers.
I mean, I guess an option to choose gender could be included, but that significantly increases the amount of work that must be done to create a storyline that doesn't merely revolve around a skin change.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
Well, I can say that there will be female eye candy...err...characters in DNF... but I expect that it will get a thread about it all on it's own.
Though I am also somewhat put out about the lack of female characters in FPS games, as they were much more common in side scrollers.
Where are my Metal Slug peeps? Put cho hands in da air and put them together now!
*starts playing house remix of Metal Slug theme*
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Post by: Monster Rain
Let's not forget in groundbreaking work that DoA did for advancement of female video game characters.
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Post by: rubiksnoob
blah blah blah, shouldn't you be making someone a sandwich?
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Post by: Monster Rain
rubiksnoob wrote:blah blah blah, shouldn't you be making someone a sandwich?
I just literally did this, with my beer, all over my keyboard.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
Somehow this seemed apropos...
Also relevant:
-20-08-10.jpg)
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Post by: Whatever1
There's actually a reason why female characters haven't permeated the FPS shooter market as much as they have other genres. From a psychological perspective,in other game genres,you are playing a character. You are controlling the on-screen character through the adventure. In a FPS environment,while you are still technically playing a character,the game is set up so that you essentially ARE the main character. That's one reason why leads in FPS campaigns tend to be fairly generic,so that players can better imagine themselves in the lead role. Even though there has been an increase in female gamers through the years,the majority of gamers are males right now,so in a genre where the player essentially becomes the lead,it's not surprising that the lead tends to be male so the majority of gamers can better put themselves in their shoes...er...combat boots.
There have been some strides in which FPS campaigns in which the campaign either centers around a female lead[Metroid Prime and Perfect Dark] or players are given the option to play a female lead[Halo:Reach,Borderlands,Rainbow 6:Vegas 1+2]. That said,they are lagging behind in the genre,in part because the "sex sells" strategy doesn't work for a FPS character that sees a very limited amount of screen time in the course of a game.
With all that being said,it is somewhat of a glaring omission when FPS's don't have any female skins for multiplayer use. It takes minimal effort to make a female skin to keep female gamers happy.
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Post by: micahaphone
Didn't Portal have a female main character named "Chell"? Then again, you could only see what she looks like by manipulating portals.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaronIveagh, you win this thread.
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Post by: Prawnkus
Why are ghettos mostly black populated? Why are Americans generally represented as hicks and rednecks? It's a thing that I nor you will never understand.(keep in mind this is rhetorical and I am not racist.)
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Post by: Frazzled
How can females be playing when they should be bringing tasty treats for the boy, rum and popcorn for me, and fresh steak for Tbone and the SHanker? There's only so much time in the day and you just overburdening the fairer sex! Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:Yes, and I care how?
I'd like to play a badass female character in a shooter for once. It hasn't really happened very much, and usually you're right, she IS done for sex appeal. That doesn't mean that's how it has to be, nor does it mean that women can't be done properly in the setting. So why should I want to settle for less, again, while you don't have to?
Say, why not have a female soldier in a modern army? Is that realistic? Of course it is, it's not like it's not already happening, it's not like twenty minutes into the future it won't be even more common. And there's already at least one game that does it. Now if only Combat Arms wasn't inherently flawed for being styled off of Korean MMOs. But major releases never even bother to try, hell, most of hte time they don't even have female models in them period, not even as NPCs in single player. Because they are being lazy and they aren't marketing to us, mostly, and that is exactly what's pissing me off.
Or even a non-soldier. It's not like all modern games have to be about the army. Crimecraft comes to mind, but then again it's a 3PS rather than FPS, and it sucks anyway so it's hardly a good example, and besides, it also sexualizes its female PCs-- high heels, high skirts, and low cut tops are the order of the day. So a more appropriate one would be Left 4 Dead. Zoey was actually the most popular character in Left 4 dead (poll by Valve)-- there's pretty much noone like her. Yet nobody is taking advantage of this sort of popularity and adding these kinds of characters to their games, making me wonder about the (lack of) capability of the gaming industry's marketing departments.
Or hell, a badass female lead in a futuristic setting for an FPS game. These are a bit more common, from Samus Aran on the Wii, to Global Agenda on the PC, and a few more. Yet even here, where the rigors of fiction take place and lower the barrier for believability (yes, I've seen and heard some male gamers openly despise Zoey and Rochelle for this reason, as their sexist beliefs are so ingrained in their heads that they can't comprehend a woman actually doing anything heroic), it's incredibly rare to see a woman for any purpose other than sex appeal.
Hell, older games such as Quake or Unreal Tournament or Doom managed to do it, yet newer games seem incapable of it, the devs usually citing that it's too much work. Unreal Tournament 3, for example had believable female characters who were armored up like everyone else, and it's a pity the game itself was kinda flawed and unpopular. Halo Reach has them (and it basically only really means new voice acting there, which I'm perfectly fine with), but as before, I'm not going to be able to play THAT for a long time no matter how much I want it. Maybe I should try and sell my PS3 so I can buy a 360 because it's not like my PS3 has many games I actually want to play these days...
Will I still play FPS games? Of course I will, I like the genre for it gameplay.
I just haven't been enjoying it as much as I would like.
wow. Call me when you have a real problem.
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Post by: Monster Rain
What if, for the sake of argument, the game was set up in the kitchen?
That way she could keep an eye on dinner and play at the same time?
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Post by: Frazzled
Monster Rain wrote:
What if, for the sake of argument, the game was set up in the kitchen?
That way she could keep an eye on dinner and play at the same time?
Then the steak would get burnt. Do you really want TBone's steak to get burnt? What are you, some kind of sicko ruining a dog's steak? Perv!
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Post by: dogma
I think I smell a new genre:
First Person Turkey Baster
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
They already have Cooking Mama for the Wii.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Frazzled wrote:Monster Rain wrote:
What if, for the sake of argument, the game was set up in the kitchen?
That way she could keep an eye on dinner and play at the same time?
Then the steak would get burnt. Do you really want TBone's steak to get burnt? What are you, some kind of sicko ruining a dog's steak? Perv!
Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking. Besides, if the lady of the house has extra energy that needs expending it should go toward knitting or baby-making.
dogma wrote:I think I smell a new genre:
First Person Turkey Baster
I really can't deal with how funny this is.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
... what would be really funny is if I put any of you in a room with my dear sweet old mom and had you say any of this.
Well, the hospital bills, ammo bills, repair bills, and legal fees wouldn't be funny. But the youtube video would go viral in within an hour.
So far though, she hasn't figured out why I call her 'Boss'.
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Post by: Medium of Death
I am against putting characters in for the sake of it. The game should work with either male or female leads.
It doesn't really effect me to be fair, as I have the jawline of a god, abs on my abs and have an assault cannon for an arm...
Look forward to portal 2, Chell is back. Although she is mute.
Zoey from Left for Dead is great, and she could count for this year if you include DLC.
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Post by: BearersOfSalvation
Melissa is irate about women in a game either not being obvious enough or being too obviously female? STOP THE PRESSES!
Also, women can't be space marines because of biology. SHE WONT RESIST THIS!
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
BearersOfSalvation wrote:Melissa is irate about women in a game either not being obvious enough or being too obviously female? STOP THE PRESSES!
Also, women can't be space marines because of biology. SHE WONT RESIST THIS!
Are you alright there?
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Post by: snurl
So somebody slam out a quick patch that lets female gamers play as females. Then they will both be happy.
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Post by: Phryxis
I don't get why all this worry about the gender of the main character in an FPS game. You can basically see part of the hand, and a big gun. Just assume it's a girl with man hands. Done.
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Post by: Geemoney
I would choose not to play an FPS just because the lead was female.
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Post by: The Dreadnote
Any particular reason?
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Post by: Frazzled
BaronIveagh wrote:... what would be really funny is if I put any of you in a room with my dear sweet old mom and had you say any of this.
Well, the hospital bills, ammo bills, repair bills, and legal fees wouldn't be funny. But the youtube video would go viral in within an hour.
So far though, she hasn't figured out why I call her 'Boss'.
I think if your mom saw this thread, she was tell the poster to shut up and get a job you whining sack baby.
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Post by: rubiksnoob
Call of Duty: Kitchen Warfare
Heed the Call!
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Post by: Tyyr
Redbeard wrote:As an aside, be careful what you ask for too. My wife, and most of her friends (who are also gamers) are huge Final Fantasy fans. (Go figure, it's a game with a story and a plot, so the girls like it). But FF11 (I think) had some feature that was clearly aimed at women, (powers changed when the characters changed their outfits, or something like that), and they all hated that one, for that reason.
Seriously, what misogynistic moron thought that was a feature that women would be clamoring for? I'm not exactly Mr. Sensitivity and even I groan at hearing that.
There's two ways to include female leads. One is to target them to male players, ala tomb raider or tekken. Give her huge tits and show some skin and voila, female lead character. The other is to make realistic female characters that are obviously targeted for female players (Zoey in Left4Dead). Given that FPS games are marketed towards males (and you can complain all you want about how this isn't fair, but that's the economics of the situation), I'd be concerned that asking for more female leads results in more of the first type and not more of the second.
I'm pretty much a caveman and even I prefer Zoey to Lara. In the context of the game Zoey is far more appropriate for fighting zombies, Lara looks like she'd be more suited to a pole down at the Pussycat lounge. I'll take full plate over a chainmail bikini any day. Big tits and skimpy outfits are more likely to convince me not to buy a game than to put down $50 on it.
Monster Rain wrote:Not that it really matters. FPS protagonists tend to be males, because statistically men and women have different interests.
Which to me makes the lack of female characters in FPS' even more bizarre. I like girls. I like guns. Why isn't a "male dominated" genre over-run with girls carrying guns?
Geemoney wrote:I would choose not to play an FPS just because the main the lead was female.
You just prefer men that much do ya?
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Post by: asimo77
Phryxis wrote:I don't get why all this worry about the gender of the main character in an FPS game. You can basically see part of the hand, and a big gun. Just assume it's a girl with man hands. Done.
Well what about that one game where you fought dinosaurs, and when you looked down you didn't see feet but your bewbz!! There was even a little heart tatto on them that was your life indicator. What the hell was the name of that game?
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Post by: notprop
Hmm strange thread?
Surely the Bewbs would change the FPS completely. Jiggling as they would be at the botom of the screen pushing the arms and gun to the sides of the screen and leaving no where for the score and ammo HUD.
Accuracy on the move would be attrocious and no more lying face down when sniping!
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Post by: BaronIveagh
Frazzled wrote:BaronIveagh wrote:... what would be really funny is if I put any of you in a room with my dear sweet old mom and had you say any of this.
Well, the hospital bills, ammo bills, repair bills, and legal fees wouldn't be funny. But the youtube video would go viral in within an hour.
So far though, she hasn't figured out why I call her 'Boss'.
I think if your mom saw this thread, she was tell the poster to shut up and get a job you whining sack baby.
That's what she said when I was stabbed. Minus the job part.
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Post by: sexiest_hero
I don't care, I'd love to see a woman in a fps, but then she'd just be a short skirt or short shorts. I'd rather have no woman in a game than some 12 year old slab of jail bait. Nobody would play a game where the female lead looked like a scarred sister of battle, and that's really a shame. It seems that games like Medal of honor would have females in them.
But hell I'm still waiting for a Black lead in an RPG or anygame where his names isn't Mace barrel Blunthammer, Or D-Brick, T-bone.
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Post by: Frazzled
BaronIveagh wrote:Frazzled wrote:BaronIveagh wrote:... what would be really funny is if I put any of you in a room with my dear sweet old mom and had you say any of this.
Well, the hospital bills, ammo bills, repair bills, and legal fees wouldn't be funny. But the youtube video would go viral in within an hour.
So far though, she hasn't figured out why I call her 'Boss'.
I think if your mom saw this thread, she was tell the poster to shut up and get a job you whining sack baby.
That's what she said when I was stabbed. Minus the job part.
I see you mom and my mom graduated from the same school of empathy and parenting. 
on the positive she makes a mean cornbread.
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Post by: halonachos
Okay, so you want some more female leads/characters in first person shooters. That's understandable. First off; Battlefield Bad Company, Battlefield, Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, and "insert 'realistic' army shooter here" are vaguely based off of realistic military ranks/traditions/history and last time I checked no woman led a charge except for Boudica, so when they make a game based on Boudica charging at some Romans we'll go ahead and put her in there. Secondly, the notion of you not caring about the fact that some games are based on books about male characters is really upsetting. In fact, screw Boudica, she's a dude in the game now because who cares if she was a female in real life. Thirdly, sex does sell. Fourthly, first person shooters mean that you can't exactly see yourself unless you look in a mirror and even then the mirror is usually horribly done. So yes, you can be a chick, but you wouldn't be able to see it. Automatically Appended Next Post: sexiest_hero wrote:I don't care, I'd love to see a woman in a fps, but then she'd just be a short skirt or short shorts. I'd rather have no woman in a game than some 12 year old slab of jail bait. Nobody would play a game where the female lead looked like a scarred sister of battle, and that's really a shame. It seems that games like Medal of honor would have females in them.
But hell I'm still waiting for a Black lead in an RPG or anygame where his names isn't Mace barrel Blunthammer, Or D-Brick, T-bone.
I believe the marine character in the new Aliens vs Predator was black. I also believe that this is relevant. 
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Post by: Geemoney
Tyyr wrote:
Geemoney wrote:I would choose not to play an FPS just because the main the lead was female.
You just prefer men that much do ya?
That's funny.
I prefer playing a man over playing a women; why because I'm a man. It also bothers me when men play female characters in MMO's. I also don't like watching movies where the lead hero is a female (like Tomb Raider).
My wife says I'm sexist.....I'm pretty okay with that.
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Post by: The Dreadnote
sexiest_hero wrote:Nobody would play a game where the female lead looked like a scarred sister of battle, and that's really a shame.
See Halo: Reach and the many people opting to use the female player model. The only appreciable differences are the voice and slightly slimmer arms/legs, so it's not as if they're doing it for the sake of cleavage.
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Post by: Devilsquid
On a vagely related note: One of the things that I like about Warmachine/Hordes is the presence of strong female characters. From casters, to unit leaders, to solos, there are plenty of females being represented, and not in that "oh hey, my midrift" kind of way (mostly...there's one or two).
Hell, the Legion of Everblight has one male warlock, and 7 female warlocks.
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Post by: Melissia
The Dreadnote wrote:sexiest_hero wrote:Nobody would play a game where the female lead looked like a scarred sister of battle, and that's really a shame.
See Halo: Reach and the many people opting to use the female player model. The only appreciable differences are the voice and slightly slimmer arms/legs, so it's not as if they're doing it for the sake of cleavage.
Yeah, I really, really want this game-- not only because it is supposed to be pretty damn good, but also because it allow sme to actually play me, through my character.
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
sexiest_hero wrote:I
But hell I'm still waiting for a Black lead in an RPG or anygame where his names isn't Mace barrel Blunthammer, Or D-Brick, T-bone.
The Courier, The Lone Wanderer, The Champion of Cyrodiil, the Nerevarine.
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Post by: Frazzled
Iur_tae_mont wrote:sexiest_hero wrote:I
But hell I'm still waiting for a Black lead in an RPG or anygame where his names isn't Mace barrel Blunthammer, Or D-Brick, T-bone.
The Courier, The Lone Wanderer, The Champion of Cyrodiil, the Nerevarine.
You said He Who Cannot Be Named's Name!
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
I'm going to kick myself for this later. Which one can't be named?
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Post by: Frazzled
Iur_tae_mont wrote:I'm going to kick myself for this later. Which one can't be named?
TBone...the TERROR!!!! eight lbs of demonic fury with a 4 ounce bite pressure. He's the one that got away. He's the one you don't  with...
Run!!!
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
I love Dakka Dakka.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
sexiest_hero wrote:I don't care, I'd love to see a woman in a fps, but then she'd just be a short skirt or short shorts. I'd rather have no woman in a game than some 12 year old slab of jail bait. Nobody would play a game where the female lead looked like a scarred sister of battle, and that's really a shame. It seems that games like Medal of honor would have females in them.
But hell I'm still waiting for a Black lead in an RPG or anygame where his names isn't Mace barrel Blunthammer, Or D-Brick, T-bone.
I'll point to the Mass Effect series with the scarred, female, and possibly black Commander Shepard.
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Post by: Tyyr
Fem Shep is the true Shep, this we all know.
My Shep had a broken nose that didn't set well.
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Post by: Melissia
Meanwhile mine was hispanic.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Melissia wrote:The Dreadnote wrote:sexiest_hero wrote:Nobody would play a game where the female lead looked like a scarred sister of battle, and that's really a shame.
See Halo: Reach and the many people opting to use the female player model. The only appreciable differences are the voice and slightly slimmer arms/legs, so it's not as if they're doing it for the sake of cleavage.
Yeah, I really, really want this game-- not only because it is supposed to be pretty damn good, but also because it allow sme to actually play me, through my character.
So your suspension of disbelief allows for spaceships and aliens but having the wrong imaginary set of genetalia in an FPS just pulls you right out of the game, huh?
I understand.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Melissia wrote:Meanwhile mine was hispanic.
...
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Post by: WarOne
Monster Rain wrote:Melissia wrote:The Dreadnote wrote:sexiest_hero wrote:Nobody would play a game where the female lead looked like a scarred sister of battle, and that's really a shame.
See Halo: Reach and the many people opting to use the female player model. The only appreciable differences are the voice and slightly slimmer arms/legs, so it's not as if they're doing it for the sake of cleavage.
Yeah, I really, really want this game-- not only because it is supposed to be pretty damn good, but also because it allow sme to actually play me, through my character.
So your suspension of disbelief allows for spaceships and aliens but having the wrong imaginary set of genetalia in an FPS just pulls you right out of the game, huh?
I understand.
I suspend my disbelief from a nail shoved into it's neck.
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Post by: Tyyr
Monster Rain wrote:So your suspension of disbelief allows for spaceships and aliens but having the wrong imaginary set of genetalia in an FPS just pulls you right out of the game, huh?
I understand.
You can say that to the other side as well.
Geemoney wrote:I would choose not to play an FPS just because the lead was female.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Tyyr wrote:Monster Rain wrote:So your suspension of disbelief allows for spaceships and aliens but having the wrong imaginary set of genetalia in an FPS just pulls you right out of the game, huh?
I understand.
You can say that to the other side as well.
Geemoney wrote:I would choose not to play an FPS just because the lead was female.
I must not have noticed that. If I had, I would agree with you. I think both positions are equally silly.
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Post by: WarOne
Monster Rain wrote:Tyyr wrote:Monster Rain wrote:So your suspension of disbelief allows for spaceships and aliens but having the wrong imaginary set of genetalia in an FPS just pulls you right out of the game, huh?
I understand.
You can say that to the other side as well.
Geemoney wrote:I would choose not to play an FPS just because the lead was female.
I must not have noticed that. If I had, I would agree with you. I think both positions are equally silly.
I support none of the above statements except in the contingency plan wherein I must decide between the two since there are no other alternatives.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Whatever you choose, do it carefully.
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Post by: WarOne
Monster Rain wrote:Whatever you choose, do it carefully.
Well, I then fully endorse the decision to remain neutral.
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Post by: Stormrider
WarOne wrote:Monster Rain wrote:Whatever you choose, do it carefully.
Well, I then fully endorse the decision to remain neutral.
We have a beige alert.
Women and shooters really don't mix.
It's not compelling enough, especially in roughly histroically based games (Call Of Duty: Black Ops, Call Of Duty: World At War) to see women fighting. I know of very few Aemrican women who were actually in combat in WWII or Vietnam. Not saying there weren't any, but the sitiuations were quite extraneous. The Soviets had an all female Sniper Unit, and a Ground Attack aircraft comprised of all women known as the "Night Witches"
As for fantasy based shooters, don't know what to tell ya, they just aren't marketed to women, thus their isn't a huge appeal to foist women into non-traditional roles, not saying it couldn't happen, but it's not in line with the paradigm of a woman in a video game.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
WarOne wrote:Monster Rain wrote:Whatever you choose, do it carefully.
Well, I then fully endorse the decision to remain neutral.
What on earth could make a man turn neutral?
I say, give the player a choice. Like with ME, have a custom character builder, like APB did.
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Post by: rubiksnoob
Monster Rain wrote:Melissia wrote:The Dreadnote wrote:sexiest_hero wrote:Nobody would play a game where the female lead looked like a scarred sister of battle, and that's really a shame.
See Halo: Reach and the many people opting to use the female player model. The only appreciable differences are the voice and slightly slimmer arms/legs, so it's not as if they're doing it for the sake of cleavage.
Yeah, I really, really want this game-- not only because it is supposed to be pretty damn good, but also because it allow sme to actually play me, through my character.
So your suspension of disbelief allows for spaceships and aliens but having the wrong imaginary set of genetalia in an FPS just pulls you right out of the game, huh?
I understand.
This thread, and the posts contained within it, have restored my faith in Dakka. Well, not really. But it has been quite entertaining.
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Post by: Melissia
Monster Rain's constant attempts to draw the thread off topic aside, some of you people are taking some parts of what I say too far out of context.
For example, I recently purchased Call of Duty: Black Ops, and greatly enjoyed its campaign (And its multiplayer, which was what Modern Warfare 2 should have been). I especially liked its cold war / Vietnam era setting, which jumped between various locations that provided constant and refreshing change of scenery every now and then. Quite enjoyable in a genre that's so fixated on WWII and Afghanistan. Mason is a very interesting character once you get to actually understand the full implications of the storyline.
And yet, I definitely think it would have been more enjoyable if its multiplayer allowed the player to choose between a male or female soldier, and that allowing such would help with my own immersion in the game, as well as other female players.
Global Agenda is a good example (especially now that it no longer requires a monthly fee) of an FPS (or perhaps 3PS is more accurate) game that has both genders for every class, and is still quite high quality. In fact, I think the graphics in it are a bit more attractive to look at than the spate of "modern" games.
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Post by: asimo77
But would such a superficial choice, really just a re-skin, do anything important for women in gaming?
Wouldn't you rather see feminity itself being empowered?
And I don't mean like how some people think being a stripper "empowers" you.
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Post by: Melissia
asimo77 wrote:But would such a superficial choice, really just a re-skin, do anything important for women in gaming?
Wouldn't you rather see feminity itself being empowered?
A reskin with a female voice actor for the various grunts, breaths, etc in combat, yes. Slight remodeling depending on the game's graphics (Halo and Global Agenda come to mind). Maybe a slight animation change, but nothing that would effect gameplay itself. In the end, a slightly feminine appearance (more slender, slightly wider hips, thinner shoulders, feminine face) and voice would suffice for this purpose, with no need to change animations.
And why do you assume the two are somehow separate? The very reason that I want to see this is because it IS female empowerment.
Femininity itself is a societal concept which oftentimes has a lot of negative connotations. Some people (I'm not sure how many, TBH, but it does not entirely seem uncommon from my perspective) view vulnerability and weakness as feminine traits, for example. And it doesn't mesh well with action heroes. Gentleness and motherhood are nice and all, but they need to be tossed aside in order to survive once the bullets start flying.
I think Tolkien put it best, through the mouth of Eowyn: "[...]those without swords can still die upon them."
Something which is becoming even more readily apparent with the advent of global news.
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Post by: asimo77
By the way the question was more out of curiosity than trying to start an arguement.
I just want to know what women really want is all. Don't we all? Amirite guys? Or amirite?
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Post by: Melissia
That's how I read it.
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Post by: asimo77
I should have worded it better, I apologize.
No matter how much schooling I get or subjects I study, I'll never understand women :(
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Post by: Melissia
Well think about it this way: the princess that needs to be saved because she is too weak to save herself is "feminine".
An action heroine who does not need to be saved because she can fend for herself is not usually considered feminine, even if she is physically attractive.
The latter makes for a far more interesting character to play as I think.
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Post by: asimo77
It's unfortunate that femininity is defined like that nowadays, but I think there are great qualities of femininity like motherhood.
I guess what I wanted to know is how you would react to a story about said princess actually ending up saving herself and the world.
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Post by: Melissia
That would work great for an RPG, and I can name a few RPGs that have done something like that. King's Bounty's second game, for instance.
But it does not work that well for an FPS game.
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Post by: asimo77
Woops totally forgot this was ony about FPS's
/facepalm at myself.
Also do you mean Armored Princess? That's sitting on my hard drive collecting virtual dust, I should probably try it out sometime.
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Post by: Melissia
Yeah. It's still unfortunately very fanservicey though.
The "armored princess" doesn't exactly wear much armor.
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Post by: asimo77
Chainmail bikinis...
I think I remember reading an article about some feminist gamer complaining that you could marry women in the orginal game, and all they did was add inventory space.
Now that might seem degrading but every RPG gamer knows that extra inventory space is one the most important things. It shows the true value of women!
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Post by: Melissia
Chainmail bikinis make me cringe.
Just think about having chainmail pinching YOUR genitalia.
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Post by: asimo77
Ummm, what do you think I'm wearing right now?
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Post by: Melissia
I'd rather not.
Suffice it to say that there's a very good reason that chainmail is worn OVER tough cloth or leather
Personally I'd prefer a woman in modern military attire anyway.
Perhaps, say, a pilot whose chopper was shot down, and she managed to survive, hide from enemy forces, and after seeing her wounded passengers being taken prisoner she goes through a long mission to save them and then hold out long enough for a rescue force to arrive.
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Post by: The Dreadnote
asimo77 wrote:Ummm, what do you think I'm wearing right now?
And then I had the disturbing vision of you saying that sexually. Melissia wrote:Personally I'd prefer a woman in modern military attire anyway.
And then I made that an innuendo as well. I need to go to bed.
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Post by: asimo77
I say all my posts sexually before hitting submit
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Post by: halonachos
That is all.
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Post by: Melissia
In contrast:
 
(click thumbnail for full image)
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Post by: The Dreadnote
Without wishing to quote halonachos' picture, obvious shop is obvious.
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Post by: Emperors Faithful
Unless she's having one of those Matrix-Agent-takeover spasms.
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Post by: halonachos
Alas, yes it is a bad photoshop thank goodness it isn't mine.
Still stands though, imagine GI Jane: The Game.
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Post by: Melissia
I prefer the two images I gave.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Melissia wrote:Monster Rain's constant attempts to draw the thread off topic aside, some of you people are taking some parts of what I say too far out of context.
Pointing out that you don't have the faintest inkling about what you speak is drawing the thread off topic? On the many occasions in which I find you saying things that are blatantly incorrect, I feel it is my obligation to say so.
This thread was off the rails long before I showed up.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
One thing I will bring up: you can tell (usually) it's a woman under the body armor, guys. They aren't shaped the same way, and don't move quite the same way.
Even in 75 pounds of gear. Or, probably, form fitted 40k style power armor.
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Post by: Melissia
Actually it's as much mannerisms,way of walking, etc as shape.
Still, for the purposes of a game and entertaining the players, one needs little more than a reskin, slight change to the model, and a new voice actor.
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Post by: halonachos
Monster Rain wrote:Melissia wrote:Monster Rain's constant attempts to draw the thread off topic aside, some of you people are taking some parts of what I say too far out of context.
Pointing out that you don't have the faintest inkling about what you speak is drawing the thread off topic? On the many occasions in which I find you saying things that are blatantly incorrect, I feel it is my obligation to say so. This thread was off the rails long before I showed up.
So your suspension of disbelief allows for believing the thread was off topic before you came, but not for you being off topic? Also, this comic sums up my arguments. http://fanboys-online.com/index.php?comic=338
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Post by: Monster Rain
halonachos wrote:Monster Rain wrote:Melissia wrote:Monster Rain's constant attempts to draw the thread off topic aside, some of you people are taking some parts of what I say too far out of context.
Pointing out that you don't have the faintest inkling about what you speak is drawing the thread off topic? On the many occasions in which I find you saying things that are blatantly incorrect, I feel it is my obligation to say so.
This thread was off the rails long before I showed up.
So your suspension of disbelief allows for believing the thread was off topic before you came, but not for you being off topic?
You mad, bro?
How can I be off topic by refuting the statements of the thread's OP?
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Post by: halonachos
Monster Rain wrote:halonachos wrote:Monster Rain wrote:Melissia wrote:Monster Rain's constant attempts to draw the thread off topic aside, some of you people are taking some parts of what I say too far out of context.
Pointing out that you don't have the faintest inkling about what you speak is drawing the thread off topic? On the many occasions in which I find you saying things that are blatantly incorrect, I feel it is my obligation to say so.
This thread was off the rails long before I showed up.
So your suspension of disbelief allows for believing the thread was off topic before you came, but not for you being off topic?
You mad, bro?
How can I be off topic by refuting the statements of the thread's OP?
Nope, just stealing your phrase and applying it liberally.
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Post by: Monster Rain
halonachos wrote:Monster Rain wrote:halonachos wrote:Monster Rain wrote:Melissia wrote:Monster Rain's constant attempts to draw the thread off topic aside, some of you people are taking some parts of what I say too far out of context.
Pointing out that you don't have the faintest inkling about what you speak is drawing the thread off topic? On the many occasions in which I find you saying things that are blatantly incorrect, I feel it is my obligation to say so.
This thread was off the rails long before I showed up.
So your suspension of disbelief allows for believing the thread was off topic before you came, but not for you being off topic?
You mad, bro?
How can I be off topic by refuting the statements of the thread's OP?
Nope, just stealing your phrase and applying it liberally.
Fair enough. Text and its lack of of nuance, and all. I wouldn't want someone with such a righteous avatar to be upset with me.
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Post by: BloodDrop101X
The entire videogame market appeals to men the most I don't know why a lot of women play videogames and I would also like to see more playable female characters in games and stories that revolve around them
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Post by: Tyyr
asimo77 wrote:But would such a superficial choice, really just a re-skin, do anything important for women in gaming?
Wouldn't you rather see feminity itself being empowered?
I think just having the option to be portrayed as female would be a big step in what Melissa is after. I think Zoey in L4D is a good example. Mechanics wise she is no different from the male characters but that's a good thing. There's no downside to choosing her. She's present and isn't a whiny, terrified, afraid of the dirt little girl. She picks up a rifle and mows down zombies just the same as the guys.
Personally when I hear something like, "...femininity itself being empowered," I have visions of a girl in a pink princess dress hitting terrorists over the head with a frying pan and complaining about breaking a nail. I think simply having a female character available and with no penalties mechanics wise is pretty damn good all on its own.
Melissia wrote:A reskin with a female voice actor for the various grunts, breaths, etc in combat, yes. Slight remodeling depending on the game's graphics (Halo and Global Agenda come to mind). Maybe a slight animation change, but nothing that would effect gameplay itself. In the end, a slightly feminine appearance (more slender, slightly wider hips, thinner shoulders, feminine face) and voice would suffice for this purpose, with no need to change animations.
And in today's market I think having that option would be just good business sense.
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Post by: Melissia
Please don't feed the troll.
Yes, I'm not really asking for much. Hell, just having the bodies covered with clothes (like most modern military games) and giving them female voice actors and a female face option would really be enough for me.
Having differing animation between gender isn't a high priority, they're both soldiers after all so it can be assumed that they will act similarly. Models, skins, and voice acting is what matters, and in the first one it doesn't have to differ that much.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Although my avatar's probably give the wrong impression, I'm actually fully with Melissia on this one.
I'd like many more games to add female characters properly, and not just because 'bewbs' means sales.
For me its partially because it means my wife will play more games with me, and because I generally prefer playing female characters. One of the best things for me in Halo Reach is being able to play a female Spartan.
I also loved that it wasn't half hearted, through out the entire game, every cut scene, in game conversation, if a gender specific was used it was changed to her, she etc to fit your character.
I'd also note WoW has definately got better over the last four years of me playing.
I'd say most of the female armours now look pretty funky, and much less of a Chainmail bikini fits all look.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Melissia wrote:Please don't feed the troll.
I'm not going to go into all of the reasons that you're hilarious for saying this.
I'd only like to say that when I'm wrong about something, I find that the mature thing to do is start calling names and acting petulant.
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Post by: Melissia
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Although my avatar's probably give the wrong impression, I'm actually fully with Melissia on this one.
I'd like many more games to add female characters properly, and not just because 'bewbs' means sales.
For me its partially because it means my wife will play more games with me, and because I generally prefer playing female characters. One of the best things for me in Halo Reach is being able to play a female Spartan.
I also loved that it wasn't half hearted, through out the entire game, every cut scene, in game conversation, if a gender specific was used it was changed to her, she etc to fit your character.
Damnit, you're really making me want to get that game even more than I already do.
Damn Bungie and Micro$oft for not releasing it on the PC!
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Post by: Tyyr
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Although my avatar's probably give the wrong impression, I'm actually fully with Melissia on this one.
Right now your avatar gives the impression that you're into some kind of wierd 80's elf fantasy tranny porn.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Heh, only because of Movember, two weeks and they'll be back to normal.
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Post by: Tyyr
And I'll be back to not reading anything you post.
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Post by: Frazzled
Lets play nice now people.
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Post by: Tyyr
That was perfectly nice. Self referential to a past discussion where in I indicated that I'd never actually been able to read anything Morathi ever posted because I was too busy staring at his av.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Hehe, well at least it's not because I'm a boring get, I do worry sometimes.
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Post by: Tyyr
Nope, it's because I've seen that whole pic before and it's pretty fething distracting.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
BloodDrop101X wrote: I don't know why a lot of women play videogames
Because they're fun. Why else?
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
There was a year back in the 90s where 51% of all video game leads were female. Times have changed I guess.
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Post by: asimo77
Somehow I have a hardtime believeing that
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
It was back when Tomb Raider was the biggest show around. The video game industry really takes the "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" cliche to the max.
So these women weren't always....realisticly proportioned but nontheless most leads were women for a while.
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Post by: asimo77
Ok I'm guessing the 51% was hyperbole and not a statistical claim.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
No, it was an article I read back in the day. I remember it was over half.
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Post by: asimo77
That's pretty wacky
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Post by: Worms4u
Melissa, I didn't read the whole thread, pardon if this was stated.
Fallout: New Vegas (Fallout 3..ish) is sort of an FPS, and you're allowed to make any kind of female character you like in it, as in any race, facial, hair style, etc.
I realize it's not a tried and true FPS being that it has a lot of RPG built into it, but the combat is very FPS like, though maybe not quite as fast paced as other fps games.
I'd also mention that New Vegas doesn't give a meaningless nod towards female characters, all of the speach is correctly directed at gender and it does play a role in the game. Some NPC's are more open to female characters, there are some talents that affect females differently than males etc.
Dunno, food for thought /shrug
Worms
Edit: I can speel, reely i can.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
What's wackier is that as time went on there was more pressure to make Lara Croft more realistic and as she became more properly proportioned sales on her IP went down. Also the number of female characters plummeted too.
So.... i guess the number of female leads in games is directly proportional to Lara Croft's breasts. lol, We men are simple folk.
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Post by: asimo77
Or probably because the tomb raider series started to suck real bad
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
I always thought they were bad.
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Post by: asimo77
You know what you're probably right
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Post by: BaronIveagh
I scoff at Croft. Remember the scandalous 'Nude Raider' patch for the first game?
Hardly empowering there.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
ya, but I think that was user created.
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Post by: Redbeard
Melissia wrote:
Having differing animation between gender isn't a high priority, they're both soldiers after all so it can be assumed that they will act similarly.
But it IS a high priority. Modern games put a lot of work into realism, including how movement looks. Men and women move differently. Women's hips are wider, which results in very different lines of movement both in walking and running*. You may think that a simply voice-over and face remap is good enough, but it isn't. The resulting character will move wrong, and you may not notice it consciously, but subconsciously, it will lead to a feeling that something just isn't right.
*- as a side note, women athletes are at considerably higher risk than male athletes in the same sports for having ACL/MCL problems in their knees for this reason. If you draw a line from a man's hips to his feet, the line goes directly through his knees. If you draw this same line on a woman, it's offset slightly to the outside of the knee joint. This results in higher stresses on women's knees when running and changing directions.
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Post by: rubiksnoob
I'm sure there's a nice first-person hair stylist game out there for you.
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Post by: Melissia
Oh please, the games stop at realism once they put in regenerating health.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Redbeard wrote:
But it IS a high priority. Modern games put a lot of work into realism, including how movement looks. Men and women move differently. Women's hips are wider, which results in very different lines of movement both in walking and running*. You may think that a simply voice-over and face remap is good enough, but it isn't. The resulting character will move wrong, and you may not notice it consciously, but subconsciously, it will lead to a feeling that something just isn't right.
*- as a side note, women athletes are at considerably higher risk than male athletes in the same sports for having ACL/MCL problems in their knees for this reason. If you draw a line from a man's hips to his feet, the line goes directly through his knees. If you draw this same line on a woman, it's offset slightly to the outside of the knee joint. This results in higher stresses on women's knees when running and changing directions.
A good example of that one is Saints Row 2, female characters have a totally over the top female swagger like walk when going slow, but as soon as you notch it foward to any other speed, they run like a male. It's painfully obvious and looks really poor.
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Post by: Melissia
It's painfully obvious because of how dramatic a switch it is.
If they hadn't had the special walk animation, the run animation wouldn't have been so noticeably different, and so it would be less of a deal.
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Post by: rubiksnoob
Melissia wrote:It's painfully obvious because of how dramatic a switch it is.
If they hadn't had the special walk animation, the run animation wouldn't have been so noticeably different, and so it would be less of a deal.
So then why can't you just pretend that all the male characters in your FPS's are female?
Kids these days. . . no imagination.
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Post by: halonachos
rubiksnoob wrote:Melissia wrote:It's painfully obvious because of how dramatic a switch it is.
If they hadn't had the special walk animation, the run animation wouldn't have been so noticeably different, and so it would be less of a deal.
So then why can't you just pretend that all the male characters in your FPS's are female?
Kids these days. . . no imagination.
Hear, hear, I dare say that I agree with the young man here. Also, some people may have qualms about shooting women in videogames. Most notably women would complain about people shooting women in videogames.
BTW rubiks your avatar is how I picture all english people since I saw Monty Python when I was young.
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Post by: Melissia
No, because audio is very important for immersion in a game, equally important as graphics. While it is believable that a female soldier would have a similar animation to a male one, the voice is not so believable.
Also, I really haven't seen anyone complain about women being targets in Combat Arms or Global Agenda.
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Post by: The Dreadnote
rubiksnoob wrote:So then why can't you just pretend that all the male characters in your FPS's are female?
You could try and pretend all you like, but it'd be pretty bloody hard to convince yourself.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
I'm sure if they try hard enough, an Imperial Guardsman can imagine himself into being a Space Marine.
(Mind you, he probably could, as long as he was happy to get some horns on his head, or maybe start oozing pus....)
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Post by: halonachos
Just turn the voice volume down and whenever you get hit, grunt.
Also, if you can't convince yourself what makes you think you can convince people to agree with you?
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Post by: Monster Rain
Why don't they just make all FPS characters hermaphrodites?
Everyone wins.
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Post by: Redbeard
Melissia wrote:
Also, I really haven't seen anyone complain about women being targets in Combat Arms or Global Agenda.
Perhaps the obvious response, but I wouldn't complain if you could be a target. ;p (friendly jest, I'm very opposed to violence against women, my mom is a DV counselor)
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Post by: Melissia
Heh. But in all seriousness, both of those games have both male and female models. I'd be playing Combat Arms far more if it wasn't a korean mmo style mess. I'm currently playing the other one right now, and it's quite good, despite being a 3ps (I prefer FPS over 3PS for gameplay).
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Post by: halonachos
Do you really want a female character though? It'll be either unrealistically vague or unrealistically definite.
Ie, Halo Reach and classic Chainmail Bikini.
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Post by: Melissia
Uh, yes. I do want one.
Duh. halonachos wrote:Halo Reach
Yes. That is EXACTLY what I am asking for. Halo Reach's player character, or something like Shepard from Mass Effect if one has to have a deeper personality for the game. halonachos wrote:Chainmail Bikini.
No. Chainmail bikini is a male fantasy. I am not male.
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Post by: halonachos
Are you getting what I'm saying?
Vague= Male/female have the same character model, just different voices.
Chainmail bikinis are well, chainmail bikinis, but you can tell that they're female.
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Post by: Melissia
Why do you think I don't?
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Post by: Slarg232
Redbeard wrote: (friendly jest, I'm very opposed to violence against women, my mom is a DV counselor)
You know, I just don't understand that veiwpoint anymore.
Women are men's equals, they can take everything we can and more, supposidly. But god help them if anyone hits a girl. Then it's "OMG, he hit a gurl!"
I mean, I don't hit anyone, unless they hit me first, but still.....
And yes, I am speaking from experiance. This girl in High School decided she was everything a man could be and more, so she decided to hit me for one of my sarcastic remarks, so I slugged her back in the jaw. Guess who got in trouble.
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Post by: halonachos
This topic makes me think though, why do girls want to be shot in videogames? Also, if girls have a smaller character model then that's giving an advantage to the female characters seeing as though there's less of them to hit.
So in fairness, all female characters have to be overweight to make up for the natural thinner bodies.
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Post by: Melissia
You mean just like every single male model has to be the exact same height and build?
What's with the load of rather inane questions all of the sudden?
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Post by: asimo77
I think Slarg232 is a pretty cool guy eh beats wimmin and doesn't afraid of anything
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Post by: Melissia
Listen, I battled sexy supervillains, beating them to within an inch of their life in City of Heroes. I battled superheroines and did the same thing in City of Villains, and then stole their money and used the money to frame them so that they were sent to prison instead of me. My Sisters get shot at and killed regularly in tabletop. I conquered France in the Total War series using a horde of highlander barbarians for laughs. I destroyed entire civilizations in the Civilization series for nothing more than daring to let a single unit cross my border. I bombarded entire worlds until the population became extinct in Hegemonia: Legions of Iron.
Why should I be bothered with having a female soldier be shot at when I've devastated entire worlds by bombarding them until the last speck of sentient life no longer exists on it?
I'm not bothered by it. Women are attacked and killed daily. Hourly. Minutely. Every second. It is a part of reality. War, were it to be personified, is an unkind bastard who does not discriminate between those who can defend themselves and those who cannot. So I'd rather play a woman who can defend herself.
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Post by: halonachos
Melissia wrote:You mean just like every single male model has to be the exact same height and build?
What's with the load of rather inane questions all of the sudden?
Pretty much, if you've played multiplayer for Goldeneye on the 64 you will have noticed the difference between being able to hit Odd Job and Jaws. Odd Job crouched and you couldn't hit him, Jaws crouched and he was the height of a standing person.
Just trying to say that even though it seems like its no big deal to have a different character model it really does. If you make a hit box that's the same for every model even though the character model is different you could shoot to the side of the female model and still get a hit which will in turn be related to a glitch or lag, or players will complain about having a hit box larger than their character model.
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Post by: Melissia
Again, what's with the inane questions?
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Post by: whatwhat
halonachos wrote:Pretty much, if you've played multiplayer for Goldeneye on the 64 you will have noticed the difference between being able to hit Odd Job and Jaws. Odd Job crouched and you couldn't hit him, Jaws crouched and he was the height of a standing person.
lol The character selection screen amongst myself and my friends at the time was basically a race to select odd job first.
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Post by: halonachos
Melissia wrote:Again, what's with the inane questions?
Again its because having a female character model is not as simple a solution as it may seem. People are fickle, as this whole thread has proven, and someone will always complain. If a game based off of the military realistically has no female character models, then that's actually a good thing. It's like Spike Lee complaining about WW2 movies having no black actors, guess what, segregation was still around so black soldiers wouldn't normally be operating in the same unit as white soldiers. If something is based off of a book, then its a good thing when it sticks to the book. Just because females are widely underrepresented in FPS's doesn't mean we should enact some cockamanie affirmative action attitude and replace male leads with female leads. So we'll rule out realistic military shooters for female leads. Futuristic shooters will either be based on current military(in which case there will be no females) or based on what the developers are thinking about(in which case they may have female leads, but will be based on what they want the hero to look like). Any shooter based on a movie or book will have a character that resembles the lead protagonist of the book, any game based on history will be the same. Any game with a female lead will actually have her doing special operations a la assassinations or information gathering kind of things seeing as though that's what females did during WW2 and just about any other war(there was another game where you played a female agent, 'No One Lives Forever' I believe). Think splintercell or that one chick in Iron Man 2 and you'll get a 'realistic' lead female role. Unfortunately, a stealth element is usually 3rd person and not first so even if you get a female lead it probably won't be for a FPS. So you come down to if you can explain why women are present in a fight. Why are women fighting along with men if we traditionally don't have that occuring currently? How did it come to be that women were made to participate in as many combat activities as men? Face it, having women fighting in close combat roles alongside men is against the world's current cultures. Bioshock managed to use a cultural civil war, so there is hope for you.
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Post by: Melissia
It's entirely believable to have a female character in a "modern" FPS, especially one set in the near future, because those things are happening NOW. Women are gaining broader and broader roles in all modern military forces, and we are constantly being put in the line of fire simply because the women of the arms forces are doing the duty requested of them. And in the years to come it will continue to broaden, as the militaries of the modern world cannot reject a skilled soldier just because of gender, just like the military is getting ready to get rid of the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy later this year because it doesn't want to have to throw away talented soldiers just because of their sexuality.
Also?
**** the world's culture. Preferably with jeep. Which has been covered in gasoline and is lit on fire. And is being driven by a rabid kangaroo. Wielding a pair of assault rifles. Which fire the lightning of a god's wrath.
Seriously, games are a method of escaping the troubles of the modern world, not enforcing them. Some people like to do that by solving puzzles. Other people like to do it through roleplaying. Still others like to blow gak up. I fit in all three of those categories. Puzzle solving adventures are often done without a character, and roleplaying adventures have no issue with the subject of gender-- being the most open to gender equality of all of the various genres. But action games are lagging behind. Escaping the doldrums or troubles of life through playing as a badass is a long-standing tradition-- all the way back to pre-biblical times people made up such stories. In the modern world, there's no reason that badass can't also just so happen to be a female.
In fact, I think that makes her a more interesting character than a male in the same position, even a male with the exact same personality, history, backstory, and so on.
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Post by: halonachos
Modern combat roles for women include pilot, and that's pretty much it. Navy has some women in it, but for the most part women are relegated to non-combat roles ie, driving cargo trucks or staying back at base.
So if you want to fly a plane as a female you're good to go, if you want to fly a helicopter you're good to go, if you want to walk around a NAVY ship you're good to go, or if you want to drive a truck you're good to go.
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Post by: Melissia
Again, making a mountain out of a mole hill. Did you not read my last two paragraphs? halonachos wrote:Modern combat roles for women include pilot, and that's pretty much it. Navy has some women in it, but for the most part women are relegated to non-combat roles ie, driving cargo trucks or staying back at base.
Female soldiers also participate in house to house searches, because the military uses female soldiers to pat down female muslims as in order to not offend their religious beliefs. This is something that was more recently adopted (IE, during the Afghanistan / Iraq wars). Israel formed a non-segregated combat unit in around the year 2000, which has expanded to batallion size, and has women participating in border patrols, anti-air warfare, field intelligence, artillery, and so on.
The duties of female soldiers are constantly being expanded as time goes on.
Equal rights means equal responsibilities, after all.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Melissia wrote:Again, making a mountain out of a mole hill. Did you not read my last two paragraphs? halonachos wrote:Modern combat roles for women include pilot, and that's pretty much it. Navy has some women in it, but for the most part women are relegated to non-combat roles ie, driving cargo trucks or staying back at base.
Female soldiers also participate in house to house searches,
Which doesn't necessarily equate to clearing rooms and other unpleasant MOUT-related procedures.
If women were held to the exact same physical standards as men in the military, I'd be all for letting them serve wherever they want.
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Post by: halonachos
So, you can get to pat down muslim women congrats. For the most part though, CoD isn't for you and neither is the Battlefield series.
You can say that videogames are a way to escape the real world, but a lot are based on the real world.
Wait for another game like "No One Lives Forever", it was a fantastic FPS and it had a female lead. Did she wear spandex, yes but it was an amazing game.
The second one had a little less spandex and was still a good game.
An FPS with female leads should be like Metroid or NOLF, not like CoD or Battlefield.
True to physical standards, plus its widely accepted that women have lower upper body strength compared to men. In fact I think there are a lot of roles that are male specific, like pararescue.
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Post by: Manchu
Alright, back on-topic please.
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Post by: Melissia
halonachos wrote:An FPS with female leads should be like Metroid or NOLF, not like CoD or Battlefield.
No, CoD and Battlefield are exactly the types of games that need more female presence. Automatically Appended Next Post: halonachos wrote:For the most part though, CoD isn't for you and neither is the Battlefield series.
If you're attempting to dictate my preferences for me...
Do not.
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Post by: Monster Rain
halonachos wrote:So, you can get to pat down muslim women congrats. For the most part though, CoD isn't for you and neither is the Battlefield series.
I actually think that a game that would allow the player to pat down a large number of dusky, foreign women would be highly popular in the 14-18 male demographic.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
halonachos wrote:Melissia wrote:Again, what's with the inane questions?
Again its because having a female character model is not as simple a solution as it may seem. People are fickle, as this whole thread has proven, and someone will always complain. If a game based off of the military realistically has no female character models, then that's actually a good thing.
It's like Spike Lee complaining about WW2 movies having no black actors, guess what, segregation was still around so black soldiers wouldn't normally be operating in the same unit as white soldiers.
If something is based off of a book, then its a good thing when it sticks to the book.
Just because females are widely underrepresented in FPS's doesn't mean we should enact some cockamanie affirmative action attitude and replace male leads with female leads.
So we'll rule out realistic military shooters for female leads.
Futuristic shooters will either be based on current military(in which case there will be no females) or based on what the developers are thinking about(in which case they may have female leads, but will be based on what they want the hero to look like).
Any shooter based on a movie or book will have a character that resembles the lead protagonist of the book, any game based on history will be the same.
Any game with a female lead will actually have her doing special operations a la assassinations or information gathering kind of things seeing as though that's what females did during WW2 and just about any other war(there was another game where you played a female agent, 'No One Lives Forever' I believe). Think splintercell or that one chick in Iron Man 2 and you'll get a 'realistic' lead female role.
Unfortunately, a stealth element is usually 3rd person and not first so even if you get a female lead it probably won't be for a FPS.
So you come down to if you can explain why women are present in a fight. Why are women fighting along with men if we traditionally don't have that occuring currently? How did it come to be that women were made to participate in as many combat activities as men?
Face it, having women fighting in close combat roles alongside men is against the world's current cultures. Bioshock managed to use a cultural civil war, so there is hope for you.
To Summerize:
The Baron's Fully Illustrated Guide to This Thread!!!!
(For those that need brought up to speed...
Halonachos view of what women in games should be:
Melissia's view of what women in games should be:
Thier opinions of one another's views on this subject:
My opinion of the whole debate:
What I have no doubt the mods will be doing to the thread soon:
Which will lead to us all heading off to other threads to rant...
While Frazz laughs about how silly the whole thing is on all sides
And I'll point out that in the greatest side scroller of all time, women were every bit the equal of men.
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Post by: Chongara
God, and here I thought putting a "No Girls Allowed" sign outside your playhouse went out of style around age 6.
Now, I don't play FPS games in fact I hate them (playing them at least, watching someone play can be kind of fun) for the most part. However I've seen enough of them to know that adding women to roles they aren't widely seen in would hardly be the biggest violations of "Realism" in the genre.
I really wish I could say I was surprised at just how silly the level of resistance to the option of having a female PC being wider spread is.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Well I would say the Baron had the greatest post I've seen in a dog's age just now.
/begins slow clap
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Post by: Manchu
Chongara wrote:God, and here I thought putting a "No Girls Allowed" sign outside your playhouse went out of style around age 6.
I have to say, I'm pretty surprised by this as well. Maybe not surprised.
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Post by: Wrexasaur
Monster Rain wrote:Well I would say the Baron had the greatest post I've seen in a dog's age just now.
/begins slow clap
*Continues slow clap*
Epic.
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Post by: Melissia
Let's see... even if you absolutely have to have it be "ultra-realistic", there's still ways to ahve modern female action heroes. A secret agent, a rebel, a soldier employed by a third world warlord, an Iraqi/Afghani civilian seeking revenge against terrorists in her city, a pilot shot down behind enemy lines, etc.
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Post by: Manchu
These things will definitely happen. I doubt it will be because more women will start playing FPSs or any other "serious" (lol) genre. I reckon it will be male gamers who drive the mainstreaming of authentic, believable female characters. Halo Reach is a good example even now.
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Post by: Melissia
I think it'll happen for both reasons, actually.
Just like I think GW will (or at least I fervently hope) release female Guard models eventually because they're actually quite commonly requested amongst Guard players.
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Post by: Manchu
Yep. The future looks good. But we can never forget that it took the NintendoDS to put us on the right track.
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Post by: Frazzled
Slarg232 wrote:Redbeard wrote: (friendly jest, I'm very opposed to violence against women, my mom is a DV counselor)
You know, I just don't understand that veiwpoint anymore.
Women are men's equals, they can take everything we can and more, supposidly. But god help them if anyone hits a girl. Then it's "OMG, he hit a gurl!"
I mean, I don't hit anyone, unless they hit me first, but still.....
And yes, I am speaking from experiance. This girl in High School decided she was everything a man could be and more, so she decided to hit me for one of my sarcastic remarks, so I slugged her back in the jaw. Guess who got in trouble.
Lets just say the man who hits any of the women in my life breathed their last breath the moment they did it.
Life's unfair, suck it up and be a man. Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:You mean just like every single male model has to be the exact same height and build?
What's with the load of rather inane questions all of the sudden?
Melissia has a point. A prudent game company should have the option of a different skin (is that what you guys call it?) and voice. I don't go with all the other stuff because that would be expensive. Having said that, it should be a should, to garner more gamers, not a required as in required by law situation.
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Post by: Melissia
Yes, I think you're referring to the right thing.
To explain:
The model is the 3-dimensional graphical shape.
The skin is the texture that covers a model.
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Post by: rubiksnoob
Melissia wrote:It's entirely believable to have a female character in a "modern" FPS, especially one set in the near future, because those things are happening NOW. Women are gaining broader and broader roles in all modern military forces, and we are constantly being put in the line of fire simply because the women of the arms forces are doing the duty requested of them. And in the years to come it will continue to broaden, as the militaries of the modern world cannot reject a skilled soldier just because of gender.
Also?
**** the world's culture. Preferably with jeep. Which has been covered in gasoline and is lit on fire. And is being driven by a rabid kangaroo. Wielding a pair of assault rifles. Which fire the lightning of a god's wrath.
Wow, so much anger. . impressive! You are a woman and I DO hear you roar! 
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Post by: Melissia
rubiksnoob wrote:Melissia wrote:**** the world's culture. Preferably with jeep. Which has been covered in gasoline and is lit on fire. And is being driven by a rabid kangaroo. Wielding a pair of assault rifles. Which fire the lightning of a god's wrath.
Wow, so much anger. . impressive!
Actually I kinda want to play that game now...
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Post by: Tyyr
Chongara wrote:God, and here I thought putting a "No Girls Allowed" sign outside your playhouse went out of style around age 6.
I was considering a long winded and detailed post but given just how ridiculous I think the resistance to the idea is getting Chongra summed it up both in content and style in a single sentence.
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Post by: Slarg232
Frazzled wrote:Slarg232 wrote:Redbeard wrote: (friendly jest, I'm very opposed to violence against women, my mom is a DV counselor)
You know, I just don't understand that veiwpoint anymore.
Women are men's equals, they can take everything we can and more, supposidly. But god help them if anyone hits a girl. Then it's "OMG, he hit a gurl!"
I mean, I don't hit anyone, unless they hit me first, but still.....
And yes, I am speaking from experiance. This girl in High School decided she was everything a man could be and more, so she decided to hit me for one of my sarcastic remarks, so I slugged her back in the jaw. Guess who got in trouble.
Lets just say the man who hits any of the women in my life breathed their last breath the moment they did it.
Life's unfair, suck it up and be a man.
See, but that's disrespectful. Women can handle anything we can, so by not hitting her back (which I would do to any guy, any day of the week), I would be saying she is inferior. If they want to be my "equal", they could handle getting punched back if they punch me first, which is the same as I would treat any man.
And by saying "Life is unfair, suck it up and be a man", your saying that men should hold themselves to higher standards, which isn't equal at all.
Now, I'm not saying I go around and hit random women, I'm actually quite placid, but if someone, man or woman, hits me, you're darn right I am going to hit back.
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Post by: Frazzled
Modqusition on. Lets all take a chill pill and remind ourselves of Rule #1 before it gets enforced with a hammer. Argue the issue not the people.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
See, but that's disrespectful. Women can handle anything we can, so by not hitting her back (which I would do to any guy, any day of the week), I would be saying she is inferior. If they want to be my "equal", they could handle getting punched back if they punch me first, which is the same as I would treat any man.
***Thats nonsense. Come to Texas and see how that works out for you.
And by saying "Life is unfair, suck it up and be a man", your saying that men should hold themselves to higher standards, which isn't equal at all.
***No I am saying have a standard. DIdn't you have parents that raised you properly?
Now, I'm not saying I go around and hit random women, I'm actually quite placid, but if someone, man or woman, hits me, you're darn right I am going to hit back.
***And I am saying that lacks honor. Real men don't do that gak. Here's your chance not to do it again.
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Post by: Tyyr
Slarg232 wrote:And by saying "Life is unfair, suck it up and be a man", your saying that men should hold themselves to higher standards, which isn't equal at all.
Yeah, life's a bitch ain't it?
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Post by: Frazzled
Tyyr wrote:Slarg232 wrote:And by saying "Life is unfair, suck it up and be a man", your saying that men should hold themselves to higher standards, which isn't equal at all.
Yeah, life's a bitch ain't it?
Wait I thought life was a beach?
Everything I knew was wrong...
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Post by: Melissia
And I thought life was a bastard, the bastard child of Chance after it fethed a few dozen other concepts, but that really doesn't have much to do with the topic.
Thankfully, in recent times artwork at least has shifted away from the chainmail bikini type of heroine.
 
 
As examples, both fantasy and otherwise. Just kinda waiting on and urging mainstream gaming to move away from the style, and add more female characters in as playable characters.
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Post by: Tyyr
Hah! I've had that top left pic saved for a while now, years actually. Love the bottom left one but, FEMALE SPESH MARINE!
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Post by: Frazzled
Melissia wrote:And I thought life was a bastard, the bastard child of Chance after it fethed a few dozen other concepts, but that really doesn't have much to do with the topic.
Thankfully, in recent times artwork at least has shifted away from the chainmail bikini type of heroine.
As examples, both fantasy and otherwise. Just kinda waiting on and urging mainstream gaming to move away from the style, and add more female characters in as playable characters.
I can't see the images, but wouldn't an ideal FPS (as that seems to be mostly what is discussed) is something along the lines of Isabelle
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2875360000/ch0163844
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2825028352/ch0163844
http://media.zoom-cinema.fr/photos/8350/affiche-du-film-predators-isabelle.jpg
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Post by: Frazzled
At work most images are blocked, including the ones I post (hence the shift to youtube commentary).
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Post by: Melissia
Well, the images I just now linked to are of actual female soldiers, not hollywood, art, or gaming.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Blocked for me as well, anyone behind a work related firewall won't be able to see Photobucket images, its one fo the first danged sites they block.
Tinypic however so far, has remained under the radar.
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Post by: Melissia
I'll go put the first one under tinypic then.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Yeah works fine for me now. Cheers.
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Post by: Slarg232
Frazzled wrote:Modqusition on. Lets all take a chill pill and remind ourselves of Rule #1 before it gets enforced with a hammer. Argue the issue not the people.
***Thats nonsense. Come to Texas and see how that works out for you.
I don't have to come to Texas. Frazzled, Your what, 40? You and me have grown up in different time periods, things are changing. It happens with every new generation. I know that hitting a girl is something you just don't do with your generation, but in mine, it is perfectly acceptable, because they WANT us to. They don't want us to hit them, certainly not, but they do want us to treat them equally. And the way to treat them equally is to treat them the same. If that means they want to hit us, we are going to hit back.
Now, I am not saying a love pat is a hit, I am talking a full blown punch/slap to the face.
***No I am saying have a standard. DIdn't you have parents that raised you properly?
Can I just say that:
1) Yes, they did.
2) I find it funny that you Modquisition about Rule #1 and then put the bolded into the same post.
and
3) None of my points, in the last post directed at you, or this one, have been typed hostilly, if they have been taken so, I apologize.
***And I am saying that lacks honor. Real men don't do that gak. Here's your chance not to do it again.
Real Men do what they feel is right by them. If that means sleeping all day and partying all night, thats fine. If it means loving your wife, treating her good, spoiling her rotten, thats fine.
If it means treating women how they have fought, tooth and nail, so hard to get to is fine, then that is also fine.
I would like to stress two things:
1) None of this is being typed in anger,
and
2) I am not a woman beater. I've been in my share of fights, probably upwards of 20, and only one of them was with a woman. And she was the one who started it.
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Post by: Melissia
Quit *****ing between eachother and go back to talking about female characters in FPS games / attracting female gamers to the FPS genre!
I gave many examples of how it could be done, model-wise-- really, there's not THAT much overt difference between a highly trained female soldier and a highly trained male soldier. The women will gain in muscle mass and become leaner with the appropriate training regimen-- and I don't mean that female soldiers are musclebound, but hell, most female soldiers are stronger than most men who aren't themselves soldiers or dedicated athletes in a field which requires muscle.
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Post by: Slarg232
Melissia wrote:Quit *****ing between eachother and go back to talking about female characters in FPS games / attracting female gamers to the FPS genre!
I gave many examples of how it could be done, model-wise-- really, there's not THAT much overt difference between a highly trained female soldier and a highly trained male soldier. The women will gain in muscle mass and become leaner with the appropriate training regimen-- and I don't mean that female soldiers are musclebound, but hell, most female soldiers are stronger than most men who aren't themselves soldiers or dedicated athletes in a field which requires muscle.
o.O Yes Ma'am 
And I agree with you. I would also like to see a female lead who isn't just a reason to have gratuitious T&A.
Helena Pierce from Borderlands would be a cool Female lead type. She is still femanin, but you can tell right away that she has seen some action.
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Post by: Frazzled
Slarg232 wrote:Frazzled wrote:Modqusition on. Lets all take a chill pill and remind ourselves of Rule #1 before it gets enforced with a hammer. Argue the issue not the people.
***Thats nonsense. Come to Texas and see how that works out for you.
I don't have to come to Texas. Frazzled, Your what, 40?
***You insult Frazzled with 40? Pah! I have unwashed underwear older than that. 
You and me have grown up in different time periods, things are changing. It happens with every new generation. I know that hitting a girl is something you just don't do with your generation, but in mine, it is perfectly acceptable, because they WANT us to. They don't want us to hit them, certainly not, but they do want us to treat them equally. And the way to treat them equally is to treat them the same. If that means they want to hit us, we are going to hit back.
***respectfully, thats still NOT Acceptable. Frankly hitting anyone is not acceptable and should involve jailtime, especially not women. On the flip side if you think truly equal then you should reconsider even more - if you hit a girl she just might shoot you. Thats equal and I've known women like that, Lord mercy I have. Hell hath no fury like a woman, well anytime.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Melissia wrote:I'll go put the first one under tinypic then.
Ok that worked.
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Post by: halonachos
Melissia wrote:Quit *****ing between eachother and go back to talking about female characters in FPS games / attracting female gamers to the FPS genre!
I gave many examples of how it could be done, model-wise-- really, there's not THAT much overt difference between a highly trained female soldier and a highly trained male soldier. The women will gain in muscle mass and become leaner with the appropriate training regimen-- and I don't mean that female soldiers are musclebound, but hell, most female soldiers are stronger than most men who aren't themselves soldiers or dedicated athletes in a field which requires muscle.
Why? Anything flying in this airspace that disagrees with you is immediately shot down with absurd amounts of flak consisting of "I'm not going to acknowledge his posts outside of the negative parts" and "male chauvinistic pig" rounds.
I believe that I in fact recognized the fact that women should be in games, but they will have different roles. I told you about a female lead who was in an espionage role "No One Lives Forever" is exactly that, but I guess you were too busy complaining about how women don't have too much of a role in a CoD type of game to see that.
Baron's posts excellently displays that flak seeing as though the spy in NOLF was a veritable badass from the 70s and apparantly I think women die easily in games or something while melissia believes that they should waste valuable shotgun ammo.
As a downed pilot, meh, a side mission at best. Having a shot down pilot rampage through enemy territory is incredibly stupid no matter if its a male, female, or pineapple. CoD prides itself on mostly being realistic similar to a Tom Clancy novel, mostly real with a hollywood story added in, so don't hold your breath.
The whole '8 year old clubhouse' remark displays the other portion of that flak.
Simply trying to explain why women aren't in many military shooters seemed like a reasonable mission, seeing as though it reflects real world conditions. Unfortunately if people are flustered they arent exactly reasonable so gross personifications are made and people are seen as chauvinistic pigs.
Men and women are inherently different, women produce estrogen in more quantities than men and men produce more testosterone than women. Testosterone is used to build muscles, to further explain the difference look at Chris 'Boulder Punchin" Redfield compared to Sheva "I'mma Kick You in the Face" Alomar. If a FPS female model was to be built it would most likely use the proportions of Sheva, while the male model will hopefully not use Chris(dude has serious roid issues) as the basic form.
You can argue this point all you want, but science has my back on this one as does psychology. You know those muscle bound women? Yeah, not very attractive to most men so all sex appeal goes out the window if you want them in a game.
So realisticly and I mean IRL and not realistic shooter, all females are going to be thinner than their male counterparts. Realisticly not all women are 'OMG BEWBS', but the bewb factor of a game depends on the developers and the type of game they're making. Too much bewb is unrealistic and too little bewb makes it harder for a person to distinguish male or female if a face mask is being worn. The face is next, which should be the easiest part of the character model because men and women typically have different styled faces. Clothing needs to be the same for both, easy enough, but you need to count in the base model so the clothing will fold and ripple differently.
Easy thing to do is have a faceless person wearing a helmet with hard armor that doesn't contort to a person's shape and just change the voices. This will most likely be what happens in most future style shooters, similar to what Gears of War is doing for that one female character. As we see though, Clay Carmine is suffering from Chris Redfield syndrome.
Here be an example:
Is this a male or female?
Surprise! It's Luger from Killzone, after meeting up with the first lead protagonist she, yes she, becomes a choosable character for the campaign. Killzone had an excellent campaign with about 4 endings and the ability to choose which character you wanted to be in between levels(after the character was introduced of course). One had no bonus to him(the first protagonist) the second had a silenced machine gun and an awesome knife kill(second, female protagonist) the third had the ability to hold more Helghast ammo(third, double agent protagonist) the fourth had a rocket launcher/machine gun(fourth, Chris Redfield protagonist).
So if you want another well done female in an FPS you have killzone to look at.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Gears of War 3 has added female characters as well, only just noted that while reading one of my xbox mags this morning.
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Post by: halonachos
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Gears of War 3 has added female characters as well, only just noted that while reading one of my xbox mags this morning.
And by me 6 minutes ago.
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Post by: LordofHats
Just to point out: Hit boxes are separate from the player character model. You can notice very easily in CoD2 onwards (maybe not 3) that the player character's hit boxes extend well outside of the actual model. Someone can be completely behind a wall, and if they're near a corner, you can shoot thin air and kill them because the hit boxes are pretty big.
That a female player model would be smaller than the male is irrelevant really, so long as hit boxes are the same. I doubt a developer would pull an Odd Job Jaws situation these days. They'd probably be roughly equivalent in size, which isn't all that difficult (EDIT: Halo Reach? There really isn't much of a difference. Female spartan models are just a little curvier with slimmer legs).
As for women and the military. Technically. They aren't allowed to participate in combat operations in most militaries. Israel has been experimenting with integration. However, how does that policy play out practically? Not so much.
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Post by: halonachos
Did I not say that before? I swear I did.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
halonachos wrote:Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Gears of War 3 has added female characters as well, only just noted that while reading one of my xbox mags this morning.
And by me 6 minutes ago.
Heh, I have no idea how I missed that line in your post halonachos.
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Post by: LordofHats
halonachos wrote:Did I not say that before? I swear I did.
It was more an explanation for anyone who didn't know there is a difference in model and hit box. Actually I was more drawn in by the "players complains about hit boxes being too big." I've played CoD since the first game, which still had pretty big boxes. I've never ever heard anyone complain about the boxes at all. Not even in the MW2 monstrosity.
The notion that female player models are a problem due to size is really silly. I'm unsure why it's even up for discussion or deserves mention. Odd Job and Jaws solved that problem more than a decade ago
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Post by: halonachos
Eh, a lot of text I guess. Automatically Appended Next Post: LordofHats wrote:halonachos wrote:Did I not say that before? I swear I did.
It was more an explanation for anyone who didn't know there is a difference in model and hit box. Actually I was more drawn in by the "players complains about hit boxes being too big." I've played CoD since the first game, which still had pretty big boxes. I've never ever heard anyone complain about the boxes at all. Not even in the MW2 monstrosity.
The notion that female player models are a problem due to size is really silly. I'm unsure why it's even up for discussion or deserves mention. Odd Job and Jaws solved that problem more than a decade ago
Yeah, too bad the hit boxes were also different for them. But that'll ruin a game if you shoot the giant in the head and it doesn't do any damage or if you shoot above the midget's head and it kills him.
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Post by: Melissia
LordofHats wrote:As for women and the military. Technically. They aren't allowed to participate in combat operations in most militaries. Israel has been experimenting with integration. However, how does that policy play out practically? Not so much.
Yes, integration is a slow process. It's always been that way no matter what demographic was being integrated.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Monster Rain wrote:Well I would say the Baron had the greatest post I've seen in a dog's age just now.
/begins slow clap
joins in slow clap.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
halonachos wrote:
Baron's posts excellently displays that flak seeing as though the spy in NOLF was a veritable badass from the 70s and apparantly I think women die easily in games or something while melissia believes that they should waste valuable shotgun ammo.
Just because I satirized your stance doesn't make it flak. Though, frankly, if I did want to give you some flak, you'd think you were hitting Berlin by day.
If you're headshot by a woman, are you any less dead then if you were headshot by a man?
God made people, but Sam Colt made them equal.
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Post by: Melissia
And that is why I love Colt pistols so much. Actually, no, I just like them because they're awesome things (both the M1911 based designs, and the revolvers) which have consistently stood the test of time.
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Post by: Monster Rain
I like the Colt 45, but I think that has more to do with Billy Dee Williams.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
Meh, I like the 1911 because it works. My old Remington-Rand made Colt 1911 still works just was well now as it did in 1943. You never have to worry if it will do the job, and it will do it anywhere, under nearly any conditions.
I'll take a weapon I know I can trust over one a general in Washington that's never seen a battlefield thinks I can trust.
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Post by: asimo77
I like lazor gunz they go pew pew
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Post by: LordofHats
asimo77 wrote:I like lazor gunz they go pew pew
\
No no. Lazors go Zaahp zaahp.
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Post by: Melissia
BaronIveagh wrote:Meh, I like the 1911 because it works. My old Remington-Rand made Colt 1911 still works just was well now as it did in 1943. You never have to worry if it will do the job, and it will do it anywhere, under nearly any conditions.
I'll take a weapon I know I can trust over one a general in Washington that's never seen a battlefield thinks I can trust.
Indeed. That's kinda why revolvers are still being used today, albeit not by military forces but for self defense.
Because revolvers are incredibly reliable.
They are also sexy.
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Post by: Slarg232
Melissia wrote:BaronIveagh wrote:Meh, I like the 1911 because it works. My old Remington-Rand made Colt 1911 still works just was well now as it did in 1943. You never have to worry if it will do the job, and it will do it anywhere, under nearly any conditions.
I'll take a weapon I know I can trust over one a general in Washington that's never seen a battlefield thinks I can trust.
Indeed. That's kinda why revolvers are still being used today, albeit not by military forces but for self defense.
Because revolvers are incredibly reliable.
They are also sexy.
I prefer clip fed magnums. They're sexier.
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Post by: Melissia
Most of them are trash.
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Post by: Slarg232
Melissia wrote:Most of them are trash.
But they look good.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
Slarg232 wrote:Melissia wrote:Most of them are trash.
But they look good.
You've confused sidearm with bling. Don't worry. It happens to a lot of people that play 40k. And all of the character designers.
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Post by: Slarg232
BaronIveagh wrote:Slarg232 wrote:Melissia wrote:Most of them are trash.
But they look good.
You've confused sidearm with bling. Don't worry. It happens to a lot of people that play 40k. And all of the character designers.
But it's too much gun for any human to handle......
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Post by: Manchu
This thread has reached its conclusion.
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