I was looking at the chapter organisation page in the SM rulebook, but I noticed- There isn't rules for a chief libby apart from tigirius (who fails- no invul.)

So I got thinking, and this is what I came up with...

Space marine chief librarian- 180pts

Wargear:
Force weapon
Bolt pistol
Iron halo
Psychic hood

Special rules:
Psyker
The chief librarian knows all of the below psychic powers, and can use up to 2 per turn
(unless he has been upgraded to a master psyker, in which case he can use three)

Psychic powers:
Null zone
Might of the ancients
Vortex of doom
The avenger
Gate of infinity (No risk with attached squad)
Fire of purgation- This is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:

S-4 AP-5 Range- 12" assault D3, blast, ignores cover.

Warp summoning- This power is used during the controlling player’s movement phase. The librarian summons D6 spectres, with the following profile:

WS-5 BS-4 S-4 T-4 A-3 W-2 I-4 Ld-10 Sv 3+

Wargear:
Extra close combat weapon

Special rules:
Feel no pain
Fearless
When casting warp summoning, the chief librarian suffers a perils of the warp attack on the roll of a double. The spectres are removed from play at the end of the player phase.

Soul unleashed- This power is used at the beginning of the controlling player’s assault phase. The librarian (and any unit he is attached to) gain +1S or +1A for the remainder of the player turn.

Relic force weapon- This is a two-handed force weapon which gives the user +2S and when using it as a force weapon, it does not count as using a psychic power.

Relic staff- This is a two-handed force weapon which doubles the range of all psychic shooting powers and when using it as a force weapon, it does not count as using a psychic power.

Options:
Storm bolter +3pts
Storm shield +15pts
Relic force weapon +40pts
Relic staff +30pts
Bike +35pts
Jump pack +25pts
Combi-weapon +10pts
terminator armour +30pts
with storm bolter +35pts
with storm shield +40pts
with combi-weapon +40pts
artificier armour +15pts
master psyker +50pts

Any opinions/suggestions?
my guy will have:
Bike
relic force weapon
storm shield
artificier armour

Doesnt this pretty much trash the epistolary upgrade? 3 powers and 2 a turn? Iron halo? 3 Wounds? Way too undercosted already

Well regular Libbies can also take a SS which makes your "no invun" argument invalid. I think the Relic Staff is a bit OP.

Valkyrie wrote:Well regular Libbies can also take a SS which makes your "no invun" argument invalid. I think the Relic Staff is a bit OP.

He mentioned no invulnerable saves about Tigrus who doesn't have an invulnerable save not normal Librarians.

Valkyrie wrote:Well regular Libbies can also take a SS which makes your "no invun" argument invalid. I think the Relic Staff is a bit OP.

It's like swapping a power weapon to a relic blade- same but with +2S, for 15 pts. Swapping a force weapon with the same but +2 S is quite similar.
Anyway- Libbies can only have SS if they have termies armour.


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kenshin620 wrote:Doesnt this pretty much trash the epistolary upgrade? 3 powers and 2 a turn? Iron halo? 3 Wounds? Way too undercosted already

Well tigirius is the same, but can automatically use 3 per turn and he knows all the powers for 230, so 80 points less for less powers usage and less available powers. The only difference is this libby has an invulnerable save and can have wargear options. Seems fair to me.

I gotta say, I love this, I really love this.

I'd have to argue that the Relic Staff is underpriced, and would be cooler as a Relic Force Sword, but I'd definitely use this in games

Wait, here's a suggestion.

How about you can choose between a Relic Staff which doubles the range of abilitys, and a Relic Force Sword, which is a S6 Two-Handed Force Weapon.

grayspark wrote:I gotta say, I love this, I really love this.

I'd have to argue that the Relic Staff is underpriced.

25pts?

Wait, here's a suggestion.

grayspark wrote:How about you can choose between a Relic Staff which doubles the range of abilitys, and a Relic Force Sword, which is a S6 Two-Handed Force Weapon.

Good idea! EDITED!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW I am going to my FLGS next week and while I am there I will get my store manager* to stamp it, so make the tweaks quick.
I am going tomorrow, but the manager's on holiday, so I can't get it stamped.

Perhaps there should be more powers for him, since he is a Master afterall.

Throwing balls of energy? Summoning Spectral Spirits?

An Empowering spell for his unit that actually helps?

EDITED.

grayspark wrote:Perhaps there should be more powers for him, since he is a Master afterall.

Throwing balls of energy? Summoning Spectral Spirits?

An Empowering spell for his unit that actually helps?

/clap

lol

Cool

Asherian Command wrote:Cool

Any tweaks you wish to make ash? Or am I just perfect [/sarcastic vanity]

shrike wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Cool

Any tweaks you wish to make ash? Or am I just perfect [/sarcastic vanity]

Well I would like to add pyschic powers but I don't think anyone would allow me to write up my own pyschic powers as my chapter differs from the codex standards.
Plus you saved me some time in writing Chief Librarian stats.

shrike wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Doesnt this pretty much trash the epistolary upgrade? 3 powers and 2 a turn? Iron halo? 3 Wounds? Way too undercosted already

Well tigirius is the same, but can automatically use 3 per turn and he knows all the powers for 230, so 80 points less for less powers usage and less available powers. The only difference is this libby has an invulnerable save and can have wargear options. Seems fair to me.

Doesnt seem fair when making up units to completely replace others. Although I do have to admit the Epistolary upgrade seems very overpriced for what it does

Asherian Command wrote:

shrike wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Cool

Any tweaks you wish to make ash? Or am I just perfect [/sarcastic vanity]

Well I would like to add pyschic powers but I don't think anyone would allow me to write up my own pyschic powers as my chapter differs from the codex standards.
Plus you saved me some time in writing Chief Librarian stats.

Happy to help

okay i gotta go- laptop curfew

Hmmm, I really like the idea of the Spectres, summoning the spirits of your ancestors to get enemies stuck in combat?

Soul Enhancer is a nice ability, but could probably use a better name.

Valorous Might?
Strength of the Ancients?
Ferocity Unleashed?

Perhaps one for giving your units +1 Toughness, but we may be getting on the overpowered side, and would just be copying the Eldar.

The fact that the Chief Librarian can cast multiple powers in a turn afterall means you could have a S5 T5 PowerWeapon command squad afterall...

grayspark wrote:Hmmm, I really like the idea of the Spectres, summoning the spirits of your ancestors to get enemies stuck in combat?

Stat change!

Soul Enhancer is a nice ability, but could probably use a better name.

Valorous Might?
Strength of the Ancients?
Ferocity Unleashed?

Perhaps one for giving your units +1 Toughness, but we may be getting on the overpowered side, and would just be copying the Eldar.

grayspark wrote:The fact that the Chief Librarian can cast multiple powers in a turn afterall means you could have a S5 T5 PowerWeapon command squad afterall...

Oh, man! If you could get +1S and T, you could be toughness 6 (bike), 2+ armour (artificier), 3+ inv. (SS) S6 (with chaplain), throwing fireballs and summoning spectres. Ouch.

Valorous might? Nice idea, but already have might of the ancients.
Strength of the anients? already have Might of the ancients.
Ferocity unleashed? I'll go with soul unleashed how about that? And the option of +1A instead? EDITED!

Generally good idea. I think he should be able to use powers in the same way as Tigurius though, nor do I like him being on a bike or having a jump pack as he would be so concentrated on not crashing that he wouldn't be able to use psychic powers properly or vice versa.

TRISKELION7 wrote:Generally good idea. I think he should be able to use powers in the same way as Tigurius though, nor do I like him being on a bike or having a jump pack as he would be so concentrated on not crashing that he wouldn't be able to use psychic powers properly or vice versa.

If regular libbys can have bikes, why can't he?

What way does tiggy use his that this guy doesn't?

BTW is the points cost okay? Or is it undercosted?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Keep those suggestions coming!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I went to my FLGS today, and the guy who's covering for the manager said it's a good idea and that he can't see any reason why it should'nt be stamped.

I think his points value is fine...

He's a Librarian afterall, and all he'll really be accomplishing is shooting psychic powers.

As you stated in the Librarian discussion thread, one power-fist to the face and he's dead.

This Librarian is just merely one that can actually support the army effectively.

Though if there were things that should have their points changed, it would have to be the equipment

Think about how strong the Relic Force Weapon is afterall, sure it means he can actually take on monstrous creatures and do his job, but that should make it more expensive, I'd rate it about 30 - 35 points. The relic staff as well, I'd say it's 15 points rather than 10.

What about for the Magis We should put in like subsectors of Libarains like the Magis of the Crusaders.
ETC.
we should add more rules to this like different types of chapters use different abilities.

Like this guy who happens to be a magi O.o and Magis= Chief Librarian and our head guy the Magistrate is more powerful.
Could you write a few stats for them or no?

I could, but I haven't the foggiest idea as to what a magis is.
BTW in that thread -"relic blade AND storm shield" I've creaed another one to talk abouut my apoc army of ICs. The biker Captain is built.

shrike wrote:I could, but I haven't the foggiest idea as to what a magis is.
BTW in that thread -"relic blade AND storm shield" I've creaed another one to talk abouut my apoc army of ICs. The biker Captain is built.

Well check out my threads and you shall see. But anyway. This seems good but I wish there were more Pyschic powers to use -.-

Asherian Command wrote:

shrike wrote:I could, but I haven't the foggiest idea as to what a magis is.
BTW in that thread -"relic blade AND storm shield" I've creaed another one to talk abouut my apoc army of ICs. The biker Captain is built.

This seems good but I wish there were more Pyschic powers to use -.-

Can't have too many for fear of being OP.
I am creating a "IC rule" thread, where I create units for other dakkaites. Good idea?
Currently working on master of sanctity rules. I'll post ASAP.

Asherian Command wrote:Well check out my threads and you shall see.

Links?

hmm- I what powers should I give my chief libby? He has a relic force weapon, a SS, a bike, artificier armour, and i wanna have null zone. 2 more powers left.

the powers i am considering are:
might of the ancients (+2S)
fire of purgation (a load of blasts)
warp summoning (a load of meatshields)
soul unleashed (+1S or T to him and his unit)

okay- bear in mind that in apoc games I will have a second libby, with jump pack, gate of infinity, plasma pistol, null zone. (really just for support)

Wow. just thought this up:
Might of the ancients
soul unleashed
quickening
with my biker chaplain in the squad.
thats:
S4 standard
S5 with chaplain in the squad
S7 with relic force weapon
S8 with soul unleashed
S10 with might of the ancients.
striking at I10 with a 2+ armour, 3+ inv., T5, TL boltguns, 12" movement.

IMO the "look-at-me-I'll-never-ever-take-a-PotW" is a bit over the top. That'd move this psyker close to the odds of Eldred, and Eldred obviously is more powerful than any now living loyalist psyker. Just get rid of the 5+ pseudo-save against PotW, you've already got an invulnerable save.

5+? where does it say that?
anyway, the regular libby doesn't have an invul.
and what does PotW mean?

Relic staff. Wether the normal libby has an invulnerable save or not doesn't matter, as this does. Furthermore, almost everyone takes SS anyway. And thirdly, PotW would in this case be "Perils of the Warp"

5+ save is gone.
If he's like eldrad, to get the staff and everything would cost 220 points. eldrad's 210. so this seems fair.

shrike wrote:

Wow. just thought this up:
Might of the ancients
soul unleashed
quickening
with my biker chaplain in the squad.
thats:
S4 standard
S5 with chaplain in the squad
S7 with relic force weapon
S8 with soul unleashed
S10 with might of the ancients.
striking at I10 with a 2+ armour, 3+ inv., T5, TL boltguns, 12" movement.

Chaplains do not give a strength bonus, just so you know. They give reroll hits and fearless.

This is fantastic and now compares well to the CSM Sorceror with his extra wound, invul and I5.

TBH I would be happy with Epost at least being able to choose a third power as well as being able to use 2 powers per turn. Gating termies with avenger or null zone would be a huge improvement, only being able to pick two powers even as epost sucks.

If this was available in the codex I would seriously consider it. Even better the awesome termi libby model is custom made for that force staff, and the libby powers are all so short range, so that artifact is just gold.

Great work, +1 support for me - now how do we ensure we get this into the next SM codex, as well as ensuring next time tactical marines remember to bring their chainswords to battle?

shrike wrote:5+ save is gone.
If he's like eldrad, to get the staff and everything would cost 220 points. eldrad's 210. so this seems fair.

I think you missed my point, there's no way that any now living (loyalist) Space Marine Librarian would be even close to Eldrad, ten points over or not. It seems much more resonable now though. My remaining issue is a nagging feeling that this is removing all the weak points of a Librarian just to make him an insane killing machine. I don't like that.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

shrike wrote:5+ save is gone.
If he's like eldrad, to get the staff and everything would cost 220 points. eldrad's 210. so this seems fair.

there's no way that any Space Marine Librarian would be even close to Eldrad

It's still fair in the rules IMHO. when you think about it, SM, being the flag race, should have better psykers (or at least one of the best)

shrike wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

shrike wrote:5+ save is gone.
If he's like eldrad, to get the staff and everything would cost 220 points. eldrad's 210. so this seems fair.

there's no way that any Space Marine Librarian would be even close to Eldrad

It's still fair in the rules IMHO. when you think about it, SM, being the flag race, should have better psykers (or at least one of the best)

OK, while you're at it, why not give lascannons S10, AP1 and the lance and the melta rules regardless of range, after all, what with Space Marines being the flag race you'd think they have better ranged weapons than anyone. Seriously, just because we're the poster children doesn't mean we're better than everyone in every field.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

shrike wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

shrike wrote:5+ save is gone.
If he's like eldrad, to get the staff and everything would cost 220 points. eldrad's 210. so this seems fair.

there's no way that any Space Marine Librarian would be even close to Eldrad

It's still fair in the rules IMHO. when you think about it, SM, being the flag race, should have better psykers (or at least one of the best)

...doesn't mean we're better than everyone in every field.

not every field... but although not 100% plausible in fluff rules compared to eldar, it is plausible in terms of rules.
going to the manager of my FLGS to go get it stamed.
willl post results later.

okay- so I have edited the libby, as the LGS manager decrees.

shrike wrote:
Fire of purgation:
This is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:
S4 AP5 Assault D3, blast
Warp summoning:
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian summons D6 spectres, with the following profile:

WS4 BS- S3 T4 W1 I3 A2 Ld10
Feel no pain, fearless.
The spectres are removed from play at the end of the controlling player's turn.
The chief librarian will take a perils of the warp attack on the roll of a double when casting this power.
Soul unleashed:
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian (and any unit he is attached to) have +1S or A for the remainder of the player turn.

First of all, what's the range for the exploding fireballs?

And where do the spectres show up? within 6" of him?

And I agree that the points should be revised, at least for the upgrades. And the Relic Staff and the Relic Force Weapon seem OP. Perils of the warp is uncommon enough as is and doubling range of psychic powers is a little broke. Maybe +6"? Get rid of the modified perils of the warp and change the range altering rule for the staff and the points should be fine.

Other than that I like it. I'm going to see if my friends are going to let me use this at our club. I don't think they'll have a problem. Nice work!

1337m45747r0y wrote:

shrike wrote:
Fire of purgation:
This is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:
S4 AP5 Assault D3, blast
Warp summoning:
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian summons D6 spectres, with the following profile:

WS4 BS- S3 T4 W1 I3 A2 Ld10
Feel no pain, fearless.
The spectres are removed from play at the end of the controlling player's turn.
The chief librarian will take a perils of the warp attack on the roll of a double when casting this power.
Soul unleashed:
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian (and any unit he is attached to) have +1S or A for the remainder of the player turn.

First of all, what's the range for the exploding fireballs?

12".

And where do the spectres show up? within 6" of him?

12". scatter dice. (no mishap)

And I agree that the points should be revised, at least for the upgrades. And the Relic Staff and the Relic Force Weapon seem OP. Perils of the warp is uncommon enough as is and doubling range of psychic powers is a little broke. Maybe +6"? Get rid of the modified perils of the warp and change the range altering rule for the staff and the points should be fine.

Other than that I like it. I'm going to see if my friends are going to let me use this at our club. I don't think they'll have a problem. Nice work!

hey! If you think the relic force weapon is OP, what if I increased the points to 30, and made him 140 points standard? this would mean he is a libby (100pts) with an iron halo (SS is 15, so 110pts?) with +1 W, A, I (10 points each? 140pts) so this would make him basically a libby with extra powers and captain stats. fair?

Good job. I approve. No problems except if you equip him with every single ability there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here I fixed a bit of it up and added a few things.
Chief librarian- 150pts

WS-5 BS-4 S-4 T-4 W-3 I-4 A-3 Ld-10 Sv-3+

Wargear:
Force weapon
Bolt pistol
Iron halo (they need it)
Psychic hood

Special rules:
Psyker
And they shall know know no fear
Combat Tactics
A SM chief libby has 3 psychic powers a turn. He can only use 2 per turn (unless he has been upgraded to a master psyker, In which case he can use up to 3 per turn).

Psychic powers:
All the stuff the normal libbies have
The gate of infinity doesn't have the "roll-a-double and a guy goes pop" rule.
Fire of purgation:
-A ball of pure inflaming destruction that destroys almost every single any one unlucky to be caught by its power.
This is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:
S4 AP5 Assault D3, blast, 12" range
Warp summoning:
-Beings of the past chapter have come back to aid their chapter, it is considered necromancy by many other chapters but some call it the righteous fury of the chapter.
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian summons D6 spectres within 12" of the librarian. Roll a scatter dice (the spectres may not mishap, they are moved the minimum distance away from the object), with the following profile:

WS4 BS- S3 T4 W1 I3 A2 Ld10
Feel no pain, fearless.
The spectres are removed from play at the end of the controlling player's turn.
The chief librarian will take a perils of the warp attack on the roll of a double when casting this power.
Soul unleashed:
This power is used during the controlling player's movement phase. The librarian (and any unit he is attached to) have +1S or A for the remainder of the player turn.

Options:
Artificier armour +15pts
Master psyker +50pts
Jump pack +25pts
Bike +35pts
He may replace his Force Weapon with a….
Relic force weapon +20pts
Relic staff +20pts
He May replace his Bolt Pistol/bolter
Plasma pistol +15pts
Combi-weapon +10pts
SB +3pts
He may replace his bolt pistol/bolter and his iron halo with Terminator armour with:
No additional weapons +25pts
Storm Shield +40
Storm Bolter +30pts
Combi-weapon +35pts
Force Claw +40
Relic force weapon- This is a two-handed force weapon that gives the user +2S. (in addition to the regular rules for a force weapon)
Relic staff- this is a two-handed force weapon that gives the user double the range on psychic weapons. This also means the user will only take a perils of the warp attack on the roll of a double-1. (in addition to the regular rules for a force weapon)
Force Claw- Is a relic of any chapter, any chapter possing this beyond no doubt ancient as these weapons are taken off skilled artisans. Gives +1 attack and you may re-roll your rolls to hit.

In addition the Chief Libarain May take a squad of Lexicanums with him which follow the following stats.
WS-5 BS-4 S-4 T-4 W-1 I-4 A-2 Ld-8 Sv-3+
They may select only one ability from the Space Marine Pyschic powers.
They are all equipped with force weapons and bolt pistols/or/bolters.
1-5 Lexicanums 50 pts each.
Special Rules:
Psyker
And they shall know know no fear
Combat Tactics
They do not count towards the max HQ

so the differences are:
I4, not 5
Force claw (not too sure about that)
put in bold any other changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW is the rumour true that people like matt ward, phil kelly, and all the other games developers go on the forum sites?

shrike wrote:so the differences are:
I4, not 5
Force claw (not too sure about that)
put in bold any other changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW is the rumour true that people like matt ward, phil kelly, and all the other games developers go on the forum sites?

Well the force claw is for grimteef who has a chief liby that is a termiantor. So yeah.
Anyway the Rumor is kind of true. We don't really know. They can be anyone except me.

Asherian Command wrote:

shrike wrote:so the differences are:
I4, not 5
Force claw (not too sure about that)
put in bold any other changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW is the rumour true that people like matt ward, phil kelly, and all the other games developers go on the forum sites?

Well the force claw is for grimteef who has a chief liby that is a termiantor. So yeah.
Anyway the Rumor is kind of true. We don't really know. They can be anyone except me.

who's grimteef?
and if you're out there- PUT THIS IN THE NEXT SM CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shrike wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

shrike wrote:so the differences are:
I4, not 5
Force claw (not too sure about that)
put in bold any other changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW is the rumour true that people like matt ward, phil kelly, and all the other games developers go on the forum sites?

Well the force claw is for grimteef who has a chief liby that is a termiantor. So yeah.
Anyway the Rumor is kind of true. We don't really know. They can be anyone except me.

who's grimteef?
and if you're out there- PUT THIS IN THE NEXT SM CODEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not before they put in the Chief Apothecary in! And the head quarters staff.

yh- they should have:
chief apothecary (like the sanguinary priest)
master of sanctity (like a souped-up chaplain)
chief libby

shrike wrote:yh- they should have:
chief apothecary (like the sanguinary priest)
master of sanctity (like a souped-up chaplain)
chief libby

Grim Teef is another Dakka Dakka Super Awesome l33t poster. But he hasn't been active for a while just go into army profiles under DIY Space Marines and you shall see why.

This is dangerous territory. You can justify it with point, but 140 points librarian with captain stats + iron halo is not equal - mainly because the librarian wasn't designed to function in that way. It is giving the Librarian more powers and more abilities than he should otherwise have. And no, Space Marines should not be better than the best race at something, EVER. Eldrad and the Eldar are the best psykers in the galaxy. Space Marines should not be better. If they are, it's broken. SM are the best at having a shot at doing everything well, but not the best.

I will reference something from the "Dungeon Master's Guide" here too. This Librarian is something everyone loves - implying that they would always take it, had they the option, except in lists where he does not do as well as other HQs (probably not many), and even then he might be taken as a second HQ. In D&D, the DMG (Dungeon Master's Guide) always makes a point that "If a spell (or ability) is so good that someone will always take it, then it's probably underpriced or overpowered."

This seems to be going along the same lines. He has RIDICULOUS spells, great survivability and wonderful stats for his points. Librarians, of any type, don't need Halo because they are not meant to survive an onslaught, they're meant to dish an onslaught, and that's all. It's why MegaNobs have Slow and Purposeful but no heavy weapons. The SnP is not meant to be a benefit, but a cost. It's why Ogryns are way overpriced, because Guard is not meant to have great assault.

Hey, can I give all my Ogryns power weapons for 10pts apiece? Sergeants can take them for 10, so as long as the cost is the same, it's fair, right? Right?

Wrong. Ogryns are never supposed to have a capability to bust through armor, so they have no options for it. To give them that benefit for 10pts is a gross underpricing. 10 is fine for a Sergeant because a Sergeant has 3 attacks (4 on the charge), 3 WS and 3 str. Ogryns have 4 WS, 5 str, and 3 attacks (4 on the charge), but they don't have 2 CCW (like a Sergeant), thus leaving them with a great gun (The Ripper Gun).

No, this proposed unit is completely wrong for the game. It takes away what the actual Librarian is supposed to do and makes him better in every way for less than it should cost. If you never have a reason to take a regular librarian after you have access to this unit, then it's over-powered. Which it is, since I would never take a Librarian over this. If you had this in your list and offered to play a game with me, I would flat-out refuse, because you are breaking the game with them. let me take my Ogryns with power weapons, and then I'll play, sure - then it's just a race of who can get more broken crap on the field. If I wanted that, I'd play the BlazBlue video game.

TheRedArmy wrote:This is dangerous territory. You can justify it with point, but 140 points librarian with captain stats + iron halo is not equal - mainly because the librarian wasn't designed to function in that way. It is giving the Librarian more powers and more abilities than he should otherwise have. And no, Space Marines should not be better than the best race at something, EVER. Eldrad and the Eldar are the best psykers in the galaxy. Space Marines should not be better. If they are, it's broken. SM are the best at having a shot at doing everything well, but not the best.

I will reference something from the "Dungeon Master's Guide" here too. This Librarian is something everyone loves - implying that they would always take it, had they the option, except in lists where he does not do as well as other HQs (probably not many), and even then he might be taken as a second HQ. In D&D, the DMG (Dungeon Master's Guide) always makes a point that "If a spell (or ability) is so good that someone will always take it, then it's probably underpriced or overpowered."

This seems to be going along the same lines. He has RIDICULOUS spells, great survivability and wonderful stats for his points. Librarians, of any type, don't need Halo because they are not meant to survive an onslaught, they're meant to dish an onslaught, and that's all. It's why MegaNobs have SaP but no heavy weapons. The SnP is not meant to be a benefit, but a cost. It's why Ogryns are way overpriced, because Guard is not meant to have great assault.

Hey, can I give all my Ogryns power weapons for 10pts apiece? Sergeants can take them for 10, so as long as the cost is the same, it's fair, right? Right?

Wrong. Ogryns are never supposed to have a capability to bust through armor, so they have no options for it. To give them that benefit for 10pts is a gross underpricing. 10 is fine for a Sergeant because a Sergeant has 3 attacks (4 on the charge), 3 WS and 3 str. Ogryns have 4 WS, 5 str, and 3 attacks (4 on the charge), but they don't have 2 CCW (like a Sergeant).

No, this proposed unit is completely wrong for the game. It takes away what the actual Librarian is supposed to do and makes him better in every way for less than it should cost. If you never have a reason to take a regular librarian after you have access to this unit, then it's over-powered. Which it is, since I would never take a Librarian over this. If you had this in your list and offered to play a game with me, I would flat-out refuse, because you are breaking the game with them. let me take my Ogryns with power weapons, and then I'll play, sure - then it's just a race of who can get more broken crap on the field. If I wanted that, I'd play the BlazBlue video game.

Equal stats with a captain! DUDE!
WRONG!

Asherian Command wrote:
Equal stats with a captain! DUDE!
WRONG!

(sigh) Fine. Slightly inferior stats to a Captain for a unit where the stats don't matter in WS or BS, since he's a Psyker anyway. I don't know Marines all that well - no plays in our group with them.

All of the above, is of course, in my personal opinion. Me and my group are very cautious about changing or adding units to the game for this reason. It's WAY too easy to make it an arms race.

I can see it as a personal opinion its just Chief Libbys are the best pysker in the entire chapter. And plus what idiot would rush this guy into combat quickly? Plus he doesn't strike that fast thats the problem I find with him. That and all pyskers have problems vs certain units. And also the iron halo is to mark his rank.

Asherian Command wrote:I can see it as a personal opinion its just Chief Libbys are the best pysker in the entire chapter. And plus what idiot would rush this guy into combat quickly? Plus he doesn't strike that fast thats the problem I find with him. That and all pyskers have problems vs certain units. And also the iron halo is to mark his rank.

You can fluff it all you want. With a Bike he can only be ID'ed by str 10, has a 3+ armor, AND a 4+ invul, can move around anywhere he wants and drop death at his leisure.

Like I said, I dunno Marines or their strategies, but once again fall back to this: If you would always take him over a normal Librarian, he is overpowered.

I'll make it a specific thing. And i will remove a certian stuff from him like the bike ability.
I overlooked that. Thanks for pointing that out. But I will ensure he will only ever be allowed in a 2,000 point game and he may not have a bike. EVER.

Asherian Command wrote:I'll make it a specific thing. And i will remove a certian stuff from him like the bike ability.
I overlooked that. Thanks for pointing that out. But I will ensure he will only ever be allowed in a 2,000 point game and he may not have a bike. EVER.

If it's only limited to 2,000, it's better but still not good. The point is to have him balanced at whatever number of points he happens to get thrown into. The Special characters with minimum point games are obsolete (no 5th edition codex has it, to my knowledge), and the key point is game balance. When looking at SM HQs, do you wonder about which one to take for an army? Concern yourself with how they differ, the option between them? I know I have before (never played a game, but made a few lists). Do I want a Chapter Master for the middle ground "safe" choice, a Captain for utility at a low points cost, a unique character for awesome capabilities? It's a tough call at times. That's how you know it's balanced.

Maybe Marines players can chime in. Would you struggle between this unit and the normal choices? If so, he's probably OK. If you always choose him, he is overpowered. If you never choose him, he is underpowered.

Simple as that.

Let me say that I appreciate what you're trying to do. I like adding variety and new things. But you have to make the balance of the game first and foremost.

After fun, of course.

Actually I was going to get rid of the Independent Character Ability in that he cannot join any-other squad.

TheRedArmy wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:I can see it as a personal opinion its just Chief Libbys are the best pysker in the entire chapter. And plus what idiot would rush this guy into combat quickly? Plus he doesn't strike that fast thats the problem I find with him. That and all pyskers have problems vs certain units. And also the iron halo is to mark his rank.

You can fluff it all you want. With a Bike he can only be ID'ed by str 10, has a 3+ armor, AND a 4+ invul, can move around anywhere he wants and drop death at his leisure.

Like I said, I dunno Marines or their strategies, but once again fall back to this: If you would always take him over a normal Librarian, he is overpowered.

I most certainly agree with the bold part, something I learned from D&D as well. Though, as a side note, Str 8 still ID's him on a bike, as his T would be 4(5).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:Actually I was going to get rid of the Independent Character Ability in that he cannot join any-other squad.

That certainly makes him no longer a no-brainer if you do that.

Scratch that, missed his retinue of psyker meat shields, still debatable then.

Hah, I just posted my ideas for special characters, including Chief Librarians. totally didn't see this until I went to go check for responses on mine. Good stuff.

Like I said, I dunno Marines or their strategies, but once again fall back to this: If you would always take him over a normal Librarian, he is overpowered.

That doesn't make any sense.

In Blood Angels codex a Librarian is better than a Captain so I take the Librarian.

This makes the Librarian overpowered?

Or how about comparing a Wolf Lord to Ragnar. I take a more expensive character that can do more and is more effective and therefore that makes him overpowered?

grayspark wrote:

Like I said, I dunno Marines or their strategies, but once again fall back to this: If you would always take him over a normal Librarian, he is overpowered.

That doesn't make any sense.

In Blood Angels codex a Librarian is better than a Captain so I take the Librarian.

This makes the Librarian overpowered?

Or how about comparing a Wolf Lord to Ragnar. I take a more expensive character that can do more and is more effective and therefore that makes him overpowered?

The point he's making is that when there's effectively no choice to be made, and the default answer is obvious, then something is either too good of a choice or too poor of a choice, and when you're introducing an outside element it will always be the former as you need to maintain internal consistency.

your "biker chief libby is wrong" point- i fail to see the problem. Your list of "broken" things it can do are:
T5
3+ Sv
4+ Inv
12" movement
"drop death at leisure"
but:
the captain has all those things apart from the powers- which IMHO is made up by the fact that he has better WS, BS and options.
The point of the chief librarian is to be able to field a fluffly-sound better psyker.
He has an iron halo- what sane chapter wants it's most potent psyker to be easily killed by a PF?
He CAN have an upgraded force weapon- based on the GK NFWs- if there are relic power weapons, surely there are a few relic force weapons? and since captains can replace a 15-point PW with a
2-handed S6 version for 15 more points, I thought it would be OK to replace a 0-point FW with a 2-handed S6 version for 30.
He knows and can know and use more powers- if the chief is better than regular libbies, he should know and have more control over his powers.
It isn't all that obvious to field him in EVERY game- a chief libby with bike, plasma pistol, artificier armour, master psyker and relic force weapon would be 275 points. that's quite expensive for a game below 2,000 points.

I would have thought 2 attacks

meh. If a libby's that old and experienced, he would have picked up a few nifty moves that the codiciers/epistolaries won't know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have made the chief libby- he has a RFW, plasma pistol, artificier armour, bike, master psyker, and, (for the GW coliseum of blades) null zone, might of the ancients and warp summoning. Just need to find some models for spectres...anyone have any ideas for ghost-type people (not necessarily SM)

How about army of the dead from LOTR? The models are kind of small though.

Or perhaps Fantasy wraiths? Check the Undead Armys out.

considering the fantasy vampire counts Cairn wraiths...
some people may think this to be OP, but this is my chief libby for m raven guard:

bike
artificier armour
SS
relic force weapon
master psyker
null zone
might of the ancients
warp summoning
The powers are just for use in an all-IC game in december (colusiem of blades)
so this means:
firing 2 TL bolters with a 3+ inv, 2+ armour striking in CC at S8 (+2S- might of the ancients), I4, 3A, having 3W to soak up, moving 12" with T5, creating up to 6 models which are, in effect, marines with no armour or boltguns, making the opponent re-roll all failed invuls within 24", allowing no armour saves in CC which ID's on a passed psychic test.
but then- it does cost 275 points.

edited rules
I shall buy the spectres for christmas maybe the cairn wraiths.

I think the biggest broken thing in the SM codex is tacticals forgot to bring chainswords as well as bolt pistols. It really dissapoints given they have to be our backbone.

I love this thread. Leaving libby in vehicle and null zoning is a waste of a lot of HQ talent. He has a brilliant CCW, he goes nuts in the fluff (referring to iron snakes and storm of iron here) so to my mind he needs at least a 5++, an iron halop would be better.

Master psycher is great. As I posted earlier, using GoI to move around, keeping avenger and null zone alone is enough for me. Sure charge me more, at the moment I have a 100 pt hood and null zone ability for a few turns but not much more.

I suspect someone really dialled back the libby in the current SM codex to trade off something else like PoMS.

thanks for the support
the libby is now basically tigirius with master psyker, an ivul and no special rules. (so tigirius is 230pts, this guy with tiggy's powers is 200)
my chief libby will have:
relic force weapon
bike
artificier armour
SS
master psyker
most commonly used powers:
null zone
avenger
GoI
warp summoning
fire of purgation
soul unleashed (when I get my CCS on bikes for christmas)

grayspark wrote:perhaps Fantasy wraiths?

I've found 6 (the maximum i'll need) on ebay for 99p. pre-painted badly, but i'll just paint over them.

I've been using him with the Force Relic blade and Artificer armor with my assault squads.

He's really refreshing to use instead of Mephiston.

Really nice to be able to use a Librarian that isn't useless.

Unless there have been changes to the suggestion later in the thread that are not reflected in the original post, this is way too ridiculous.

Surtur wrote:Unless there have been changes to the suggestion later in the thread that are not reflected in the original post, this is way too ridiculous.

how so?

grayspark wrote:
I've been using him with the Force Relic blade and Artificer armor with my assault squads.

He's really refreshing to use instead of Mephiston.

Really nice to be able to use a Librarian that isn't useless.

I know! Haven't used him in a game yet, but he is stamped and I'm going to be playing him in a mega-battle in my LGS next week, and in the national "Coliseum of blades" (one IC/SC per person)
In the mega-battle, he's gonna have null zone, relic force weapon, GoI (or vortex), bike, artificier armour, SS and the avenger.

@greyspark - normal libby is not broken. I use one in my current 1750 list. Sure he has no iron halo 4++ but he has hood, a force weapon and can take some great powers. The force multiplier of null zone with hood means him sitting in a vehicle all game still makes him worth while. Hell people take vulkan just for what he does to flamer, melta and THs.

Im planning on sitting my naked libby in LR with 5 hammernators. In games where there is a choice target, say IG heavy weapons squad, he can assault with 2 base attacks, +1 with pistol for 4 initiative 4 power/force attacks. With 2 wounds and 3+ he is going to win that battle. Also nice to bolster a fist rhino squad.

Finally on the idea of running libby with assault marines, one of the powers gives a 5++, an epistolary with the 5++ and might of ancients or avenger is truely nasty. I would say might given it means even LR will go down to him and with the invul the opponent will need to take the unit down in H2H. Sure you miss null zone but as an assaulty unit its massively bolstered. Throw 2 flamers and a fist in there. Ouch.

grayspark wrote:
Really nice to be able to use a Librarian that isn't useless.

Unleash Rage is the sexiest thing for psykers since Lash of Submission.
---
Why does this Chief Librarian have one an extra wound, an extra attack, and an invulnerable save over the Chief Libby in the book? If you actually wanted to make a balanced method of fielding the master of the librarians for any chapter, wouldn't you want to stick to the closest thing in the book? As it is, this guy smacks of using the fluff to justify making some absurd CC powerhouse.

Ok, so I can have a Libby casting NullZone and giving my TH&SS termies +1A for the cost of 150pts, on top of this he provides NullZone and now has 6 attacks on the charge and hits MEQs on +3 just like a captain,all this while providing a hood...

Or pay 20 pts more and have 5 str 6 that can ID?

And I can have this at I10?

Seems a tad bit OP. Libbys are not ment to be massive CC monsters.

My libby is for my use, and if anyone else wants to use it, you are welcome. remember- the chief libby is the same as tiggy for 200pts. 30 points less for none of the special rules.
look at it from tiggy's perspective- he can have 3 S6 I10 CC attacks that ignore armour, you must re-roll successful invulnerables and has those special rules. That seems broken, doesn't it? But in-game, he's kinda meh.

shrike wrote:My libby is for my use, and if anyone else wants to use it, you are welcome. remember- the chief libby is the same as tiggy for 200pts. 30 points less for none of the special rules.
look at it from tiggy's perspective- he can have 3 S6 I10 CC attacks that ignore armour, you must re-roll successful invulnerables and has those special rules. That seems broken, doesn't it? But in-game, he's kinda meh.

Why does this Chief Librarian have one an extra wound, an extra attack, and an invulnerable save over the Chief Libby in the book?

no extra wounds or attacks IIRC. Invul, yes. Tiggy is useless in CC. he just gets ID'd by a lascannon. The only other way he can do it is by having ET. invul is fairer IMO.

Tiggy only has 2 wounds and 2 attacks. Maybe librarians were never meant to be CC powerhouses? Lascannons don't hit people hiding in squads. ET? You mean Eternal Warrior? Fairer for who? The guy who wants to add a CC powerhouse to Codex: Space Marines?
---
What's your justification for giving Space Marines the abilities to summon ghosts/daemons from the warp?

your avatar comes into play here
anway- It isn't a CC powerhouse, my point is, to make libbies worthwhile, we need to either make them have an invul. or an ET, and a 4++is fairer than ET.
I have stated my point.

Librarians are more the worthwhile. Out of the Captain, the Chaplain, and the Librarian, the Libby is probably the best of the three in terms of utility and cost. He can make the enemy reroll invulnerables, give him and his squad an invulnerable save, teleport his squad across the table, and heavily complement his squad's short range shooting.

Why does the Librarian need an invulnerable save? He can already get one via Force Dome and when does he really need one? Against shooting the squad can take the lascannon shots and cover can mitigate. In close combat, the librarian shouldn't be trying to take out other armies close combat monsters, and avoiding the hidden powerfist or power weapon is easy.

If you aren't trying to make a CC powerhouse, why give your guy an extra attack and wound?
Why does your libby summon daemons?

1) Sorry, but "you can cast an invul?"
a) it's 5+, you would have thought, since the chief librarian is of higher rank than a captain, that he should be offered some protection equal to/more than a captain.
b) that takes up one of the two psychic powers. So a libby can only cast that power per turn.
c) he does "really need one".

2) he doesn't summon daemons, he summons spectres from the warp.

3) "he can make the enemy re-roll invulnerables, teleport across the battlefield, use shooty powers, give his squad an invul"? he can do TWO. ONE per turn. Not 4. even tiggy can't do 4.

4) they do hit people hiding in squads if the squad is destoryed (a pretty easy feat if not with expensive units)
b) It's not that easy to avoid power weapons. I don't have a single unit that doesn't pack a power weapon of some kind.

5) powerhouse? That's what you call tigirius with an invul.? powerhouse?

shrike wrote:1) Sorry, but "you can cast an invul?"
a) it's 5+, you would have thought, since the chief librarian is of higher rank than a captain, that he should be offered some protection equal to/more than a captain.
b) that takes up one of the two psychic powers. So a libby can only cast that power per turn.
c) he does "really need one".

a)The MotF lacks an invuln, and he's higher rank than a captain (sort of, they are on different rank tracks).
b) Or a second power. It does use require the use of a psychic power, but that's because the librarian has to be balanced.
c)Why? Because you want to him to really hard? You still haven't explained why it's necessary.

shrike wrote:2) he doesn't summon daemons, he summons spectres from the warp.

Specters? Are those like daemons? Or are they human spirits (hint, human's lack the mental power necessary to maintain their "soul" upon death)?

shrike wrote:3) "he can make the enemy re-roll invulnerables, teleport across the battlefield, use shooty powers, give his squad an invul"? he can do TWO. ONE per turn. Not 4. even tiggy can't do 4.

He can do two if he really wants to. Regardless, he's still damn useful with only one power a turn. Remember, he gives your army protection against psychic powers, he adds a bit of CC punch to a squad, he can ID multi-wound creatues, and he can do all sorts of nifty things with his powers. He does all that for 100 points. For what he is (a cheap and cheerful support HQ), he's awesome.

shrike wrote:4) they do hit people hiding in squads if the squad is destoryed (a pretty easy feat if not with expensive units)
b) It's not that easy to avoid power weapons. I don't have a single unit that doesn't pack a power weapon of some kind.

If the whole squad gets killed, lack of an invuln is the least of your problems. When you charge, you can easily lock the power weapon in CC with basic marines and stickthe libby a few inches away. It's more difficult when charged, but you can still try to run from the power weapon when you get to move the libby into CC. Of course, the fact that the librarian has a weakness is a good thing. Did I mention just how awesome he is for 100 points?

shrike wrote:5) powerhouse? That's what you call tigirius with an invul.? powerhouse?

Tiggy with an invuln, an extra wound, an extra attack, and a S6 Power Weapon. It still doesn't really stack up to the Thunderlord, but it's better than anything else in C:SM excepting some of the SC's.

rustyknight wrote:

shrike wrote:1) Sorry, but "you can cast an invul?"
a) it's 5+, you would have thought, since the chief librarian is of higher rank than a captain, that he should be offered some protection equal to/more than a captain.
b) that takes up one of the two psychic powers. So a libby can only cast that power per turn.
c) he does "really need one".

a)The MotF lacks an invuln, and he's higher rank than a captain (sort of, they are on different rank tracks).

the MotF should have one too.

rustyknight wrote:b) Or a second power. It does use require the use of a psychic power, but that's because the librarian has to be balanced.

with a 50-point epistolary upgrade.

rustyknight wrote:c)Why? Because you want to him to be really hard? You still haven't explained why it's necessary.

To stop them getting killed by 25-point weapons.

shrike wrote:2) he doesn't summon daemons, he summons spectres from the warp.

rustyknight wrote:Specters? Are those like daemons? Or are they human spirits (hint, human's lack the mental power necessary to maintain their "soul" upon death)?

they are not maintaining thier soul, the chief libby is (and even he can only keep them there for a turn, with an increased likelihood of PotW)

shrike wrote:3) "he can make the enemy re-roll invulnerables, teleport across the battlefield, use shooty powers, give his squad an invul"? he can do TWO. ONE per turn. Not 4. even tiggy can't do 4.

rustyknight wrote:He can do two if he really wants to. Regardless, he's still damn useful with only one power a turn. Remember, he gives your army protection against psychic powers, he adds a bit of CC punch to a squad, he can ID multi-wound creatues, and he can do all sorts of nifty things with his powers. He does all that for 100 points. For what he is (a cheap and cheerful support HQ), he's awesome. again, that's for a 50-point upgrade.

shrike wrote:4) they do hit people hiding in squads if the squad is destoryed (a pretty easy feat if not with expensive units)
b) It's not that easy to avoid power weapons. I don't have a single unit that doesn't pack a power weapon of some kind.

rustyknight wrote:If the whole squad gets killed, lack of an invuln is the least of your problems. When you charge, you can easily lock the power weapon in CC with basic marines and stickthe libby a few inches away. It's more difficult when charged, but you can still try to run from the power weapon when you get to move the libby into CC. Of course, the fact that the librarian has a weakness is a good thing. Did I mention just how awesome he is for 100 points?

shrike wrote:5) powerhouse? That's what you call tigirius with an invul.? powerhouse?

Tiggy with an invuln, an extra wound, an extra attack, and a S6 Power Weapon. It still doesn't really stack up to the Thunderlord, but it's better than anything else in C:SM excepting some of the SC's.

shrike wrote:the MotF should have one too.

Why? The MotF is a support character. He fixes tanks or shoots things with a laser. Going mano-a-mano with Lucius the Eternal isn't the MotF's m.o.

shrike wrote:with a 50-point epistolary upgrade.

Yes, which is how much GW thought it should cost. If you want extra abilities you have to pay for them.

shrike wrote:To stop them getting killed by 25-point weapons.

Isn't this an argument I already adressed? checks Yep, but you didn't really adress that point.

shrike wrote:they are not maintaining thier soul, the chief libby is (and even he can only keep them there for a turn, with an increased likelihood of PotW)

So, because humans can't keep the souls together when they die, your solution is to have one human keep six souls together? Souls that he yanked from nowhere? Souls that may or may not be fighters? You should drop this power.

shrike wrote:he doesn't have a S6 power weapon standard. And all the stuff the chief libby can do is for a very expensive points cost. (230pts).

If we're comparing this guy to Tiggy, I'd just assume treat the Relic Force Weapon as standard so that the two equal in cost.

Why are you ignoring the fact that your character has more wounds and attacks than normal librarians?

RustyKnight wrote:

shrike wrote:the MotF should have one too.

Why? The MotF is a support character. He fixes tanks or shoots things with a laser. Going mano-a-mano with Lucius the Eternal isn't the MotF's m.o.

shrike wrote:with a 50-point epistolary upgrade.

Yes, which is how much GW thought it should cost. If you want extra abilities you have to pay for them.

shrike wrote:To stop them getting killed by 25-point weapons.

Isn't this an argument I already adressed? checks Yep, but you didn't really adress that point.

shrike wrote:they are not maintaining thier soul, the chief libby is (and even he can only keep them there for a turn, with an increased likelihood of PotW)

So, because humans can't keep the souls together when they die, your solution is to have one human keep six souls together? Souls that he yanked from nowhere? Souls that may or may not be fighters? You should drop this power.

shrike wrote:he doesn't have a S6 power weapon standard. And all the stuff the chief libby can do is for a very expensive points cost. (230pts).

If we're comparing this guy to Tiggy, I'd just assume treat the Relic Force Weapon as standard so that the two equal in cost.

Why are you ignoring the fact that your character has more wounds and attacks than normal librarians?

A MotF is the owner of arcane technology, keeper of the rarest and most powerful weaponry in the chapter. He should be able to get hold of an iron halo.
I have a 50pt upgrade in there.
If chief libby tiggy can to stuff like form a giant wave out of white-hot fire, anticipate xenos hive fleets, waaghs, and whatever else, kill greater daemons with ease, and keep marneus clager alive for 200 years, he should be able to summon a few spectres for a turn. he is not a human, he is a SM. They are the spectres of old chapter heroes, not any old human.
since chief libbies are normally as old as the chapter masters, you would have thought after centuries of fighting he would have:
a) picked up a few nifty moves regular libbies won't know
b) become more used to war, at least up to the point of having more resilience.

So, from a game design perspective, why give the MotF an Iron Halo?

Your fifty point upgrade adds a ton of weapon options, a wound, an attack, new powers, more powers available, AND allows two per turn. This guy lack any balance whatsoever to the existing librarian stats.

The souls of dead space marine heros will have long since dissipated into the empyrean. Only Eldar have the mental strength necessary to keep their souls intact. The fluff just doesn't support Space Marine necromancy.

The MotF will also have centuries of warfare, yet he doesn't have an extra attack or wound. The Chapter Master will usually have centuries more experience than the younger captains, yet he lacks an extra attack or wound. Tigurius doesn't have the extra attack or wound, and he's the closest thing to a generic master librarian. Your guy shouldn't have an extra attack or wound.

I already mentioned why the MotF should have one. and this isn't about them.
actually, it's 200pts for 3 powers a turn (like tiggy) knows all the powers (like tiggy)
has actually the same amount of weapon options, just different ones
heroes won't be around? what about LotD?
A libby should have an extra wound. To stave your appetite for whining, I shall remove the +1A.

Hmm....summoning warp "shadows" sounds like sorcery, heresy and daemon worship to me! PURGE THIS THREAD!
*cough* I don't think the Chief specific powers are needed, they may the best librarian around in the chapter, but they still got the same training they are just better. Also they should not be as strong as Tigerius, since he is said to be the most powerful psyker in the Imperium(unless they changed that part).
I like the idea of the Relic Force Staff/Sword though.

Iratus Custodis wrote:Hmm....summoning warp "shadows" sounds like sorcery, heresy and daemon worship to me! PURGE THIS THREAD!
*cough* I don't think the Chief specific powers are needed, they may the best librarian around in the chapter, but they still got the same training they are just better. Also they should not be as strong as Tigerius, since he is said to be the most powerful psyker in the Imperium(unless they changed that part).
I like the idea of the Relic Force Staff/Sword though.

IIRC they kept that.

Because ultrasmirfs are the best at everything

stealth? no. RG have that.
attrition? no. CF have that.
defence? no. IF.
siege? no. IW.
they are the all-rounders- can do everything but best at nothing. Tiggy is terrible for his points. He should at least be an ET.

You gave a fluff reason(a poor fluff one at that as the Iron Halo is a reward for courage, not just a piece of wargear) not a design reason. The MotF is an example of how your ideas just don't fit the codex, so the MotF is rather relevant.

I was comparing this guy to a base librarian, but let's go ahead and compare Tiggy to this guy. This guy has options (something that Tiggy lacks), new powers, and an extra wounds Tiggy costs 30 more points and lets you reroll reserves.

LotD may or may not be alive or dead. They might not even be marines. There is no fluff justification for librarian necromancers.

The only reason this guy doesn't have more weapon options is you arbitrarily (random is bad) cutting out combi-weapons and the stormbolter for non-termies. It's kinda obvious what's going on when you only put in the options that you yourself wanted to take.

You still haven't justified the extra wound. You just keep saying "he's experienced so he's tougher" then ignoring the replies.

shrike wrote:your avatar comes into play here
anway- It isn't a CC powerhouse, my point is, to make libbies worthwhile, we need to either make them have an invul. or an ET, and a 4++is fairer than ET.
I have stated my point.

Yeah, the best HQ in the C:SM (except maybe a few SCs) certainly needs to be made worthwhile
Libbys are not ment to be a CC powerhouse, with your stats then why on earth would anyone ever take a captain?
If you feel the need to have an inv on your Libby then take Terminator amour and SS, problem solved.

And sure, its your character and you can use it however you like. But dont post extremly OP rules on a rules forum and act suprised when people give you flak about it.

it really isn't that much of a CC powerhouse.
against orks he kills 0.75
SM- kills 0.75
CSM- 0.75
'nids- 0.75
IG- 1.3
DE- 1.3
Eldar- 1.3
Tau- 1.3
DH- 0.75
SoB- 0.75
see? not that OP.
with might of the ancients and using the FW, that's:
SoB- 1.25
SM- 1.25
CSM- 1.25
DH- 1.25
DE- 1.6
tau- 1.6
eldar- 1.6
IG- 1.6
'nids- 1.6
orks- 1.6.

I rest my case.

Your math is totally off...

for SM, DH, SoB, CSM- 2 hit out of 3, 1.75 wound (2+ to wound- S6). No armour.

you have a BP as well...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Libby has a BP aswell...

with str 6 you kill as many GEQ as you kill MEQ. How are you doing as many wounds on a Carnifex as you do to an Avatar or a DP?

If you have RB and get the charge on an Avatar you will average 0.625 wounds so you have good chance of IDing the Avatar.

Vs a Carnifex you will average 1.666 wounds so almost a sure ID

ect ect

how's about I up the points?
most people don't have a problem with the psychic powers and stuff, so if I just make him a Tiggy w/ wargear options and 3 more powers, but no SR's...
He is now tiggy (same point if given master psyker (making him able to use as many powers as tiggy)), but has wargear options, +1A and extra powers.