I recently started playing warhammer 40k and me and one of my friends decided to split the black reach set. I have expanded on that since and have made a pretty solid army.

However the more research I do the more I regret painting my models blue. from what I can see, the codex marines are inferior to both of the current alternate space marine armies. I mean, all the blood angels vehicles are fast, and space wolves can take 4 hq choices? I just feel kind of ripped off.

So what I am getting at is, what sort of advantages to codex space marines offer that I can take advantage of?

well.... its true that they're generally considered less powerful than space wolves or blood angels. however this difference in power only becomes apparent at high levels of play. if you're just starting I wouldn't worry about it. if you grasp tactics and good unit selection with codex marines and your opponent with wolves or blood angels doesnt you're going to beat him every time.

these are the units you want to look at for codex: space marines.
1. vulkan hestan - an awesome fighter, not terribly expensive, and he gives you a very powerful ability. If you're just starting it's hard for me to explain whats so ridiculously good about twin linking melta guns and flamers. just trust me its really good you want to do it. and you want to bring a bunch of flamers and meltas.
2. lysander - one of the strongest hand to hand fighters in the game right now. also a good buy for what he does.
3. librarian
4. command squad. because their wargear options are so good.
5. assault terminators with thunder hammers
6. stern guard with combi weapons
7. land speeders with multi melta and heavy flamer
8. vindicators
9. drop pods
10. razor backs

the junk in your codex is:
1. chapter master
2. scouts
3. tacticals
(notice how that's your whole troop selection? sad but true, your troops choices are garbage in codex marines)
4. rhinos
5. vanguard vets

I might be forgetting one or two good units and somebody will probably be all pissed about my list of junk units but whatever. there it is.
AF


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your strongest strategy is to take vulkan + every flamer and melta weapon you can pack into the list, then drop pod on top of them and roast your enemies like a bag of marshmellows.

I have to disagree with you, there. At tournament levels, yeah, you wanna spam the options listed above. But at friendly levels of play, scouts and Tac squads are hardly garbage. Sure, you don't have Zerkers in Rhinos for troop choices, but ten power-armored commandos chilling out on an objective, popping vehicles with their free missile launcher and roasting anything that gets close with the free flamer is certainly nothing to sneeze at. Not to mention the fact that it's always fun to watch and see what your friend does when you change lists and throw 50 or 60 power armored bodies out on the field in a 1500 point game. Tough to handle in any setting.

The thing about codex marines is that you don't have any Mephiston units that can run around by themselves, taking out everything. You need your army to be synergized, and for everything to support everything else. You wouldn't bring Scout-snipers in a list with 20 Assault marines and a vindicator, but you would definitely consider them in a list with a Thunderfire cannon and some Las-predators. Think of codex marines as sort of a baseline army. Where some armies are all focused on assault or on shooting, you aren't focused on anything. You're a jack of all trades. That means you're never going to outshoot a Guard army, and you're never going to out-assault Blood angels. Just exploit your opponent's weaknesses. Fighting parking lot IG? Throw 20 power armored bodies with jump packs and melta bombs in his face. Facing DE, who wanna get up close real fast? Hello rifleman dread and mobile gunline. You've got the answer to everything in that dex, you just have to be very adaptable. The adaptability of codex marines are why I've stuck by them through all the other exciting new dexes that have come out since. There's nothing flashy, and no one particular 'always use this' build, but there is an answer to everything in that book.

Oh, and as far as MCs go, and I only mention them because they were my hardest thing to deal with when I was just starting out, mass bolter fire should bring it down, and if it doesn't, throw some termies spilling out of a LR at it, that tends to kill anything and everything.


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Oh and one last thing, definitely listen to the above poster about Vanguard Vets. I've taken everything in the codex at one point or another, just to see how I like them, except for Vanguard Vets. For their price, they're garbage.

putting half a company or even a full company of marines presents a challenge to armies that rely on volume of attack strategies. but all that power armor doesnt do you much good in other situations. for instance at the last tournament I attended I watched 25 SW terminators carve through a full company of marines in a 2000 vs 2000 point match. the guy who fielded the company of marines based his whole thinking on volume of attacks, both as an offensive and a defensive strategy. I dont think it works very well personally... its quality not quantity that wins games in the current meta.

tacticals are fine for friendly play I guess. but they really are pretty poor in terms of capabilities, considering what you pay for. w/e. you're paying 16 points a man for a guy whose main advantage - a 3+ armor save - is largely nullified by the easy access to 4++ cover that everyone else enjoys. basically you're paying out the for a slightly improved version of what everyone else gets for free. that's not ok. but yeah w/e run them for your friendly games if you want. I play pretty cut throat so I dont have any room for these guys.



your main advantage as a marine player is your mobility and flexibility. use drop pods and razorbacks. never walk. never use a rhino. AF

Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit. They get a heavy weapon for one thing and with combat squads and combat tactics they are very flexible. Unlike SW or BA you can't rely on your troops to carry your army, Tacticals are a great core to build an army round but will need some help from the specialists to deal with powerful units (you can't take 6 Tacticals at 2000pts and expect to do well). Certainly Tacticals are orders of magnitude better options than Tau, Eldar or any of the older codices troop options.

Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

Scouts certainly aren't great, but if all you want is a unit to grab an objective and don't care about damage output then they can do that for cheaper than Tacticals can.

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

C:SM is very playable and still one of the top codexes. What really separates them from BA and SW is:
- Librarian, null zone
- Biker troops
- Combat tactics

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
the junk in your codex is:
1. chapter master

It's a captain that has improved stats and has orbital bombardment. For only 25 more points. worth it.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
2. scouts
3. tacticals
(notice how that's your whole troop selection? sad but true, your troops choices are garbage in codex marines)

Scouts are one of my most useful units. Give them meltabombs and infiltrate near a tank. POW.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
4. rhinos

Very useful. I was confident in a game cos' i was playing a CSM player, and I had 4 plasma deverstators. He had them all in rhinos. He probably saved about 15 men with that.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
5. vanguard vets

They are one of my favorite units. Drop a locator beacon, pow, they appear, and meltabomb any tank you care to mention. for 200pts they can easily kill a LR.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
I might be forgetting one or two good units and somebody will probably be all pissed about my list of junk units but whatever. there it is.

I am.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
your strongest strategy is to take vulkan + every flamer and melta weapon you can pack into the list, then drop pod on top of them and roast your enemies like a bag of marshmellows.

Don't forget to take TH/SS termies and lysander in that.

I wouldnt rate Tacts as pure junk.

I was rather wondering whyd you list the Vanguard vets as 5th, as i would say theyre the crappiest of the bunch. Just say no to vanguard.

Scouts with sniper rifles. If your enemy happens to bring Wraith lords or big nid bugs, they are worth their points.

Chapter Master is ok if you buy his guard option. But that is normally becoming real expensive real fast, and isnt good for tourneys, but in friendly play theyre fun to use.

And Rhinos arent junk, this is 5th ed, live by mech, die by the mech. If you play footslogger you either ave a very good plan (Shoot em all to hell works/Deep strike shenanigans) or you set yourself up for a hard game.

Might have to agree about the chapter master. You could get cassius or something with those points. Sure you can get them honor guard but then you have quite a few points tied into HQ's. It kind of surprised me that BA players complained about their lack of generic chapter master option.

Ofcourse vanilla marines have access to some units others don't. Ironclads can be very effective. Thunderfire cannons are cheap for what they do, but require other targets to attract fire away from them. Master of the Forge allows you to take dreads in two slots. This combos nicely with ironclads I mentioned earlier. 6 Ironclads provide a bucketload of av13 and hunterkiller missiles.

There are also some very good comments above and I won't repeat them. To play C:SM well, you have to play to their strengths, i.e. those units and abilities that only they get, or they do best.

Well from my experiences of fighting codex SM I'd have to say that sniper scouts with camo cloaks can easily make their points back (or atleast annoy the living hell out of someone) As for the chaptermaster umm he isnt all that expensive just dont overdo it seriously you dont need every option he has, also his orbital bombardment can do some serious damage (hero sniping too) you only get it once so make it count but good use of it can make your chapermasters points back.

Vulkan is really good, this guy is just plain good nothing more need be said. Put him in a command squad with an apothecary (yes youd have to buy a captain) but him with that feel no pain is badass (I've faced it definately freaking hard to takedown) and like AbaddonFidelis said you can pod people in and roast everything

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

Powerguy wrote:
Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

rhinos dont do their main job - providing mobility to the squad - very well because they constantly get zapped by autocannons meltaguns lascannons etc. you need a more reliable mobility option.

Scouts certainly aren't great, but if all you want is a unit to grab an objective and don't care about damage output then they can do that for cheaper than Tacticals can.

rhetorical question.... why take a unit that isnt great... if you dont have to? isnt a great army made up of great units? so if you take just ok units arent you going to end up with a just ok army....?

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

combat tactics is good on good units. splitting a bad unit in two just gives you two smaller bad units.
the ability to run away on command isnt the kind of go-for-the-throat aggression that I look for in a unit.
but thats just me.
AF


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Voronesh wrote:I wouldnt rate Tacts as pure junk.

I was rather wondering whyd you list the Vanguard vets as 5th, as i would say theyre the crappiest of the bunch. Just say no to vanguard.

I just listed in order they occurred to me. no particular reason they're 5th.

And Rhinos arent junk, this is 5th ed, live by mech, die by the mech. If you play footslogger you either ave a very good plan (Shoot em all to hell works/Deep strike shenanigans) or you set yourself up for a hard game.

*mech* is good. its *rhinos* you want to avoid. dead rhino = dead squad. rhino is av11.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

Powerguy wrote:
Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

rhinos dont do their main job - providing mobility to the squad - very well because they constantly get zapped by autocannons meltaguns lascannons etc. you need a more reliable mobility option.

Scouts certainly aren't great, but if all you want is a unit to grab an objective and don't care about damage output then they can do that for cheaper than Tacticals can.

rhetorical question.... why take a unit that isnt great... if you dont have to? isnt a great army made up of great units? so if you take just ok units arent you going to end up with a just ok army....?

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

combat tactics is good on good units. splitting a bad unit in two just gives you two smaller bad units.
the ability to run away on command isnt the kind of go-for-the-throat aggression that I look for in a unit.
but thats just me.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voronesh wrote:I wouldnt rate Tacts as pure junk.

I was rather wondering whyd you list the Vanguard vets as 5th, as i would say theyre the crappiest of the bunch. Just say no to vanguard.

I just listed in order they occurred to me. no particular reason they're 5th.

And Rhinos arent junk, this is 5th ed, live by mech, die by the mech. If you play footslogger you either ave a very good plan (Shoot em all to hell works/Deep strike shenanigans) or you set yourself up for a hard game.

*mech* is good. its *rhinos* you want to avoid. dead rhino = dead squad. rhino is av11.
AF

And this folks, is what a BA fan boi sounds like.

OP: if you just want to win, and dont care about having fun with your friends, then sure paint them red, and start playing BA. Or paint them greyish and play SW. Both those armies are REALLY good and are much easier to win with. That doesnt mean that the C: SM are junk. Really, you can ignore most of what AF is saying about them. They do have some REALLY good units that kick alot of ass. Sternguard vets are the tits if you ask me. Ive had more then a few Orks slaughtered by those guys. They are as simple as loading them with combi-somethings, and then drop podding them into shoot the hell out of everything.

For fun games, the SM dex is plenty good. Hell Ive even seen then pop up in tourny games here and there and can still do well.Dont just jump ship because those other guys are easier to win with, unless thats your thing, then go ahead

coming from someone who actually uses the Vanilla Codex

Tactical marines arn't garbage. 16 points for 3+ save, ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, and what is probably the best infantry weapon in the game.

a ten man squad with a Combi-flamer on the Sergeant, a Flamer, and a missile launcher costs 180 points. you can split it into two different units. 1 with the sergeant and 4 marines with a flamer and the other with a missile launcher and 4 more marines.

the squad with the sergeant can go out, dump 2 flamer templates on an unsuspecting infantry unit along with 3 Bolt Pistol shots, and then assault home with 11 attacks. many infantry units can't handle 2 flame templates, 3 bolt pistol shots and then 11 attacks coming from PA bodies. all this time the other half has been sending out a missile each turn, either a frag blast for infantry or a Krak shot for tanks.


it may not be as flashy as Space Wolves or Blood Angels, but it certaintly is decent.

scouts are ok too. you can outflank a Power Fist and 9 bodies to protect it. a 12" threat to any vehicle from each board edge. scouts may not be as durable as regular marines, but they can put out more attacks and can handle anything that doesn't have PA.



Chapter masters and Captains are poor choices, but not because they themselves are bad. the issue is there are other HQs that are better, cheaper, and actually improve the rest of your army. Captains are decent at high point games if you want a command squad to spam special weapons and you can get another HQ to help your army.

I can personally oblige for the sternguard I've had many unwanted poded sternguard attacks ruin my day Still I wouldnt say your squads are junk yeah they arent fast or CC monsters but the thing is your natural T4 3+ makes it easy for you to hold objectives and openly attack, another thing C:SM can do very well is setup "kill zones" and combat squading them is even better for that and when I say killzones I mean setup a position you know your enemy has to go to where you can safely gun him down, also dont neglect your whirlwinds either they arent perfect but for 85 points those vengence missiles can easily make their points back with interest (S5 AP4, 12-48 inches, large blast, barrage, ordinance 1) thats some pretty decent artillery denying cover saves (which I do believe barrage things do) and I can also personally say they have also been able to ruin my day (or forced me to entirely change my tactics)

Also Grey Templar I'm gonna disagree on the chapter master, just give him artificer armor and a power weapon done. His orbital bombardment is really good (granted I dont play any Imperial Army but I fight them more than enough to know how brutal these things can be although there special heroes are worth looking at and trying)

yeah, but if i wanted orbital bombardment i would just take Pedro. he makes my army stubborn, Sternguard Scoring, a +1 attack bubble for everything near him, and he has the bombardment.

for just 50 points more.

Justify al you want with some extremely minor detail not shared with their offshoot brethren, they are just simply outclassed.

The advantage would be a purely self-esteem oriented thing, that you didn't do what so many others did and just start proxying all your guys into red or grey so you could enjoy the new flavor of cheese. From what I hear even old school (like RT old school) players who used to play SW are now getting an urge to play something else because they don't want to be lumped in the same category of bandwagon jumpers as the new puppies on the block.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, but if i wanted orbital bombardment i would just take Pedro. he makes my army stubborn, Sternguard Scoring, a +1 attack bubble for everything near him, and he has the bombardment.

for just 50 points more.

Oh I never knew that (then again I had never faced him) sounds pretty badass hopefully my friend will field him at some point so I can fight those changes.

Also Guitardain, we are kinda trying to help this person who plays C:SM (me personally I just fight them... ALOT) just because someone is having trouble or shaken faith in an army dosent mean you just say, your army sucks play this army instead, I mean dude that kinda leaves a bad taste for an army in somones mouth (hence I DO NOT play any imperial armies that and I plain dont like them to begin with) the point of even playing an army shouldnt be to have a signifigantly higher advantage or the best new cheese but to actually play something you enjoy. I mean dude lets face it before BA or SW even got their update and someone asked about them I'm willing to bet you'd be saying oh they suck go play C:SM instead so I mean what your saying isny very valid.

Sorry I can't help with the main question as I have often wondered the same thing.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

Powerguy wrote:
Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

rhinos dont do their main job - providing mobility to the squad - very well because they constantly get zapped by autocannons meltaguns lascannons etc. you need a more reliable mobility option.

Scouts certainly aren't great, but if all you want is a unit to grab an objective and don't care about damage output then they can do that for cheaper than Tacticals can.

rhetorical question.... why take a unit that isnt great... if you dont have to? isnt a great army made up of great units? so if you take just ok units arent you going to end up with a just ok army....?

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

combat tactics is good on good units. splitting a bad unit in two just gives you two smaller bad units.
the ability to run away on command isnt the kind of go-for-the-throat aggression that I look for in a unit.
but thats just me.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voronesh wrote:I wouldnt rate Tacts as pure junk.

I was rather wondering whyd you list the Vanguard vets as 5th, as i would say theyre the crappiest of the bunch. Just say no to vanguard.

I just listed in order they occurred to me. no particular reason they're 5th.

And Rhinos arent junk, this is 5th ed, live by mech, die by the mech. If you play footslogger you either ave a very good plan (Shoot em all to hell works/Deep strike shenanigans) or you set yourself up for a hard game.

*mech* is good. its *rhinos* you want to avoid. dead rhino = dead squad. rhino is av11.
AF

so...you are saying a 10 man, 155 point 2 meltagun squad with 30 attacks in almost every situation is junk...?

Also, Rhinoes are meant to get their cargo mid-field. Deploy 12 inches in, move 12, pop smoke. They just done their job.

more over, Have you not heard of the concept throw-away units? Like, an ork player bringing grots because they are cheap troop choices? for 75 points, scouts do their job of holding a point while being dirt cheap. Stop looking at things just for pure combat ability.\

The advantage of combat tactics is denying assault armies the ability to charge a unit they need dead. I have screwed over so many other players with that trick.

so, by your logic, raiders will suck, because they are base 25 points more and are AV 10 all around? The more and more I see what you have to say, the more I realize how little you know about the game.

AllergicToTyranids wrote:However the more research I do the more I regret painting my models blue. from what I can see, the codex marines are inferior to both of the current alternate space marine armies. I mean, all the blood angels vehicles are fast, and space wolves can take 4 hq choices? I just feel kind of ripped off.

Feeling ripped off for buying the book? Well, you'll want to know what they can do anyway. A good general is going to need to know each army's codex so you might end up buying most of the books.

Painting 'em blue? Don't sweat it. I'm not repainting my SM if I decide to use Space Wolves or BAs.

Besides, it's often the general that makes it work. Yesterday's 2k RTT was won with Chaos:SM:
Slaneesh winged DP w/ Lash
Another winged DP, maybe Khorne.
KhorneBs - rhino
Thousand sons - rhino
CSM - rhino
Havoc squad - MLs
3 Oblits
Dreadnought

Doesn't look entirely intimidating, does it? And it wasn't a fluke. This guy usually wins, regardless of the army he plays.

Yup, I mean yeah SW and BA have some nasty things and all but you have to realise you are in no way ripped off by playing C:SM it just takes some creativity and I'm more than certain you have creativity sometimes it takes the strangest things for a commander to achive the greatest victory

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

AF

LOLOLOL.

No. Just no. Grey Hunters are arguably the best troop choice in the game.

Seaward wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

AF

LOLOLOL.

No. Just no. Grey Hunters are arguably the best troop choice in the game.

GH are good but not the best

They certainly arent trash though, just different. They are not CC monsters though which everyone who praises them think they are. 24-12" is their range of expertise

Umm yeah Grey Hunters are pretty brutal just slap in a guy with mark of the wolfen and a power weapon and umm yeah they are good definately not junk but still they are in no way the greatest. Personally I'll vote DE warrior for best troop choice because I'm biased on that one Also AbaddonFidelis if you want to know what a good troop choice is it certainly isnt the BA assault marine I would say Khorne Berzerkers are better, much better

kenshin620 wrote:
GH are good but not the best

They certainly arent trash though, just different. They are not CC monsters though which everyone who praises them think they are. 24-12" is their range of expertise

Really? BP+CCW. +1A whether charging or being charged. Two power weapons, MotW, Wolf Standard. They're far, far better in CC than almost all other troop choices - and the ones they're not better in CC compared to, they're far better at shooting. They're an amazing unit.

Over glorifying them abit much? I mean it still is only ten guys and they arent cheap either, we arent saying they suck but I mean they are not the best still they are damn good.

Which is why a Plasma Cannon is a great thing for a Space Marine Tactical squad to tote around: It fries Space Wolves and Blood Angels and other Traitor alike from a safe distance.

Incidentally, and I cannot stress it enough: If you are regretting the army you bought because it isn't winning for you, then you suck as a player.

It's about your skill as a player, not the 'power' of the army.

See Brothererekose's excellent post on the subject.

AF you are a complete hypocrite. On the one hand, you say rhinos are bad because they are so easy to kill. On the other hand you list razorbacks as good - which are just as easy to kill, more expensive and can carry less troops. Your argument for why rhinos are bad would necessarily make razorbacks worse. Don't get me wrong, I think they are both good. Its just that your argument makes little sense.

He is right about a couple things though. Although this is more common internet wisdom then his own ingenuity. Chapter masters and vanguard vets are not worth the investment.

On the subject of command squads, its their weapon options that make them good. Although having to get a captain to take advantage of them means they aren't really that great.

Vulken is a strong strategy but is very one-dimensional. If you are going to fight an army that can eat you in CC, Vulken lists have a very hard time. Depending on the size of the list, a Libby+ assault terminator list I feel is stronger. Null zone is one of the best powers in the game. The psychic defense can help a lot too.

Lysander is a strong choice in the right list just like vulken. However Lysander's army won't be quite as one-dimensional, even if it doesn't pack the same close range shooting punch.

Landspeeders are good both with HF/MM and HB/Typhoon. Very different roles, but the Landspeeder is a good platform for both.

Predators are another great option he left off the list, I prefer the AC/Las for very reliable transport popping.

You'll find there are very few units in the codex that have no real value. I'd put the thundefire cannon and whirlwind in that list, if only because I don't think they have a place in a list designed to take on any opponent. Together with chapter master and vanguard vets, those 4 are really the only stuff to stay away from. Some people will disagree with me on the whirlwind/TF cannon, but I've always seen them fail horribly in competitive settings.

Tactical squads deserve addressing. They are not junk. They are just expensive and have little offensive output. Their main function is to hold objectives, so you should never forget that. The only upgrades you should give are ones that help them in this primary task. Sure, you could add that cheap lascannon if you have nothing else to spend the points on at the end of your list, but for the most part stuff like powerfists and power weapons are wasted on them. Also, when considering how many to take keep in mind that you only want them for holding objectives. As such, you should be taking the minimum your list needs to hold enough objectives to win games. For instance, I take 20 marines in 1500 points. I'd consider increasing that to 25 around the 2k mark.

Scouts have their own role in certain lists, but most lists won't need them. The only example I can think of is a Shrike list. Their lower BS makes them suboptimal most of the time for shooting roles. A 5 man sniper squad with cloaks and a heavy bolter are decent though @ 100 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its also important to note that I've seen people win with pretty much every codex. This game is a lot more about the player. List building certainly is part of player skill, but tactics at the board is really the most important thing.

ShadowZetki wrote:Over glorifying them abit much?

No.

I mean it still is only ten guys and they arent cheap either,

Yes, they are.

we arent saying they suck but I mean they are not the best still they are damn good.

What I was responding to was a point about them not being decent in CC - which could only have been said by someone who wasn't aware of their CC capabilities. Hence why I pointed them out.

I say that one of the strengths of the SM dex is the array of SC's you can choose from. They all do something different and can add more character to your army.

I wish people would just stop comparing tacticals and grey hunters. They are different units that perform different roles. Tacticals camp objectives with support where as grey hunters are more of a participant in the active battle.

To the OP:

I have the SM dex and the BA dex. Guess which one I play more with? The SM dex. IMO it is a more balanced codex with a variety of builds. The trick to codex marines is synergy. It is as I like to say a support orgy! Everything in the army has to be supported and relies on its support more than the SW and BA dex's. If you take a good list and know the strengths, you will beat most of the SW and BA cookie cutter lists. Those lists can almost play themselves but many (not all) of the players who play them are just looking for an easy win and do not always understand how their army synergizes. I can personally attest to this statement as most (not all) SW players I play I beat.

I think it is the variety and the weapons we can use XD

Flexibility is one advantage, although Codex: Space Marines seem to do better in shooting rather than close combat. The trick to maximizing on flexibility, however, is using redundancy and synergy. Flexible units need to support each other and concentrate their strength. Conversely, having a range of flexible units means that you can spread that strength around more evenly without worrying about overkill and wasting a shot.

Take a platoon of three Tactical Squads, for example. You wouldn't be better off having one unit with three Melta Guns, one unit with three Missile Launchers, and one unit entirely armed with Bolters, because then you can only engage one unit a turn with Melta Guns, one unit with Missile Launchers, and the Bolters can only be used on AV10 and less. The Imperial Guard can do this because they can have several cheap squads per Troops choice. Cheap squads that Bolters mop up easily, but they have their own drawbacks.

Definitely the Flexibility. Just the whole Combat Squads is amazing when you don't know if your gonna play kill points of objectives.

You can take the 2 min Troop squads, and still have 4 scoring units. Meaning you have more versatility and points to spend on cool special stuff.

Most armies need to take atleast 3 - 4 solid(and usually expensive) troops considering the plethora of objective missions. But, you can specialize. Take your two 10 mans with a heavy wep and something special and keep them safe and cheap while your elites/heavy/fast loose wounds on the front line, making a game where you still have 4 scoring by the end and the enemy would have had to put his on the line and loose them.

Not to mention you can effectively double your FoC.

Yep Space Marines rule. FOR THE EMPEROR!

I have to agree with some of the points made so far. The Chapter Master and vanguard are not worth the points. Honor Guard are also IMO too expensive for what they do.

The Captain is a great investment if you want to take bikes as troops and that right there is something unique to the C:SM. If you are not taking the captain on a bike then you could probably get more use out of a Librarian, chaplain or one of the divergent chapter characters.
I'll chime in on tacticals and say that I don't think they are junk or bad but I do feel that they are expensive for what you get from them.

Cheers,
~Volkan

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

BA assault squads are nothing compared to Grey hunters.

We are 3 points cheaper per model
We have counterattack (I.E. we are not screwed if we get charged)
We have Wolf Standards, one of the best items for its points in the game.
We come with bolters, bolt pistols, and CCW base.
We dont lose close combat attacks when we take special weapons.
Our Sgts (Wold Guard) are cheaper than yours and our PF is 5 points cheaper as well.
We dont rely on a 50+ point 1 wound Free Killpoint giveaway to give us FNP and Furious Charge. Because we dont need it.

Plus the armies around them. Nothing you take is going to save you from 15 Missile Launchers firing at 6 seperate targets every turn. And I dare you to take a raider, because thats just another free Killpoint for me when I pop it with my 2 MM/HF speeders.

What do you have?
A 1/6 chance to be fearless and have FC,
a 50+ point 1 wound Free Killpoint giveaway to give you FNP and Furious Charge
and a 200+ point Stormraven that will be shot out of the sky first turn.

ignore what Abbadonfidels says.

he just trolls threads to say that SM are bad and likes to argue the point. He also clearly doens't know what he is talking about as GH are among the top 5 best troops choices in the game(among Ork boyz, BA assault squads, Kabalite Warriors, and IG veteran squads)

I agree with Grey Templar: AbbadonFidelis is the sort of poster that's best seconded to one's Ignore list. That said, I'm pretty excited to read his witty retort to zeekill's manifesto.

KingCracker wrote:
And this folks, is what a BA fan boi sounds like.

sigh.... somehow I'm perceived as the instigator when I respond to this kind of stuff, so I guess I'll just let it go.

OP: if you just want to win, and dont care about having fun with your friends, then sure paint them red, and start playing BA. Or paint them greyish and play SW. Both those armies are REALLY good and are much easier to win with. That doesnt mean that the C: SM are junk. Really, you can ignore most of what AF is saying about them.

OP asked what was wrong with codex marines. I told him nothing. did you read my original response? I didn't say codex marines are junk at all. If you disagree with what I'm saying then let's have a discussion. But if you don't even know what I'm saying how is it possible?
AF

lets chill a bit guys this is borderline flaming...

brother thunderer wrote:
so...you are saying a 10 man, 155 point 2 meltagun squad with 30 attacks in almost every situation is junk...?

yes. that's what I'm saying. quantity of attack strategies dont work in a meta where every other model is high toughness, feel no pain, has a 2+ save, etc.

Also, Rhinoes are meant to get their cargo mid-field. Deploy 12 inches in, move 12, pop smoke. They just done their job.

once the transport gets blown away the guys are stranded. no mobility = no options. rhinos aren't hard to kill. you want mobility and options at all stages of the game not just on the 1st 2 turns.

more over, Have you not heard of the concept throw-away units? Like, an ork player bringing grots because they are cheap troop choices? for 75 points, scouts do their job of holding a point while being dirt cheap. Stop looking at things just for pure combat ability.

I have indeed. at 16 points a man tacticals dont qualify. dont recall the exact cost of grey hunters but they're comparable. if you're going to throw something away why throw away a tactical instead of a scout?

The advantage of combat tactics is denying assault armies the ability to charge a unit they need dead. I have screwed over so many other players with that trick.

sure. until they figure out that they can prevent you from doing this just by not shooting you. you save maybe 1 casualty vs. bolter pistols, maybe 1 or 2 more vs. plasma weapons. not good enough.

so, by your logic, raiders will suck, because they are base 25 points more and are AV 10 all around? The more and more I see what you have to say, the more I realize how little you know about the game.

sigh..... again I'm going to let the insult go and just address the issue. raiders are fast enough to reliably deliver the units they carry, which are close combat specialists. their destination is the enemy and once they get there they've done their job. since tacticals are supposed to be flexible rather than specialists they require options at all phases of the game. should have clarified earlier.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

AF

LOLOLOL.

No. Just no. Grey Hunters are arguably the best troop choice in the game.

well... dont just assert it. argue it. what's so great about them?

I have written a series of articles about Codex: Space Marines on the Capture and Control website. The series is call "And They Shall Know No Fear." Here is the link, check it out you may find it helpful I talk about a lot of the units from the codex and their strengths and weaknesses.

Capture and Control: And They Shall Know No Fear

BTW I was under the influence this thread was about the advantages of C:SM So I will refrain from commenting on GH, BA AS, etc. Despite my fingers itching to weigh in.......

They have 2 base attacks, don't lose any when carrying a Special weapon, have counter attack so it really doesn't matter if they get charged, and have cheaper weapon options. all this for lower Ld.

all the advantages of CSM without any of the disadvantages.

WGBLs are an awsome force multiplier to add to the squads too.

i belive someone said these things a few posts ago too.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Seaward wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

AF

LOLOLOL.

No. Just no. Grey Hunters are arguably the best troop choice in the game.

well... dont just assert it. argue it. what's so great about them?

I'm a little worried that I need to point it out when others already have in this thread, but very well.

They're cheap. They come with BP+CCW. They have Counter-Attack. Wolf Standard. Mark of the Wulfen. Two PWs per unit common when running them with a Wolf Guard sergeant stand-in.

So. What does that give us? A unit that can shoot far more effectively than a Blood Angel Assault Squad, a unit that can assault just as well as a Blood Angel Assault Squad, and a unit that can take a charge far better than a Blood Angel Assault Squad.

zeekill wrote:
BA assault squads are nothing compared to Grey hunters.

well at least you're making some points. as opposed to just flatly rejecting what I have to say. let's address the points you made.

zeekill wrote:
We are 3 points cheaper per model
We have counterattack (I.E. we are not screwed if we get charged)
We have Wolf Standards, one of the best items for its points in the game.
We come with bolters, bolt pistols, and CCW base.
We dont lose close combat attacks when we take special weapons.
Our Sgts (Wold Guard) are cheaper than yours and our PF is 5 points cheaper as well.
We dont rely on a 50+ point 1 wound Free Killpoint giveaway to give us FNP and Furious Charge. Because we dont need it.

1. yes but you dont get as much for them either. you dont get fast rhinos at a discount and you dont get jump packs, yes?
2. counter attack and wolf standards are nice. not great but nice.
3. BA assault marines get bolt pistols and close combat weapons. BA assault marines dont have bolters but so what? somebody earlier said that bolters were the best standard issue gun in the game. that is.... errrr... just not so. every once in a while a bolter kills something. not often. now somebody will say "ap 5 kills light infantry" yes thats true but has anyone else noticed that light infantry come in massive blobs that can absorb the casualties? and that 4+ cover is everywhere in 5th? why people persist in thinking that ap 5 matters I honestly don't know.
4. losing 1 or 2 attacks in a 10 man unit isnt that big of a deal. each attack from a marine has something like a 1/10 chance of killing a MEQ. the trade just isnt that big of a deal in a unit that is swinging 25 times or more on the charge anyway.
5. 5 points savings on a sergeant? really? this is one of your reasons why grey hunters are awesome? yeesh you all accuse me of min/maxing. anyway the powerfist being cheaper would matter if it was a good idea to take powerfists.... which it isnt.... so like losing bolters its a disadvantage that ends up not affecting much.
6. true you dont have a sanguinary priest around to give up a kill point. then again you dont have a sanguinary priest around to give you feel no pain and furious charge either. its a trade off. kill points dont even matter in 2/3 of the missions. in addition the priest can take wargear that strengthens the overall capabilities of the squad. he's expensive but completely worth it.
7. meanwhile your guys dont get jump packs or fast rhinos at a discount and cant have feel no pain or furious charge. blood angels assault marines ignore almost every shot from a weapon lighter than a plasmagun or in close combat from non-power weapons. they deny the opponent the use of an entire category of weapons, and because they have jump packs they usually get the charge and cannot be deprived of their mobility. all for a few extra points a guy.

Plus the armies around them. Nothing you take is going to save you from 15 Missile Launchers firing at 6 seperate targets every turn. And I dare you to take a raider, because thats just another free Killpoint for me when I pop it with my 2 MM/HF speeders.

where are all those missiles going to go? a BA player can bring a strong army without taking a single vehicle. he can use descent of angels to drop into cover near the long fangs. they'll live through long fangs shooting, but the long fangs won't live through the blood angels assault.

What do you have?

an infinite resevoir of patience.

A 1/6 chance to be fearless and have FC,

forget red thirst. who cares about this?

a 50+ point 1 wound Free Killpoint giveaway to give you FNP and Furious Charge

which only matters in kill points missions. where I get the kill point back by *not* bringing a rhino.

and a 200+ point Stormraven that will be shot out of the sky first turn.

what does a storm raven have to do with anything? I would never take one of these things.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:They have 2 base attacks, don't lose any when carrying a Special weapon, have counter attack so it really doesn't matter if they get charged, and have cheaper weapon options. all this for lower Ld.

all the advantages of CSM without any of the disadvantages.

WGBLs are an awsome force multiplier to add to the squads too.

i belive someone said these things a few posts ago too.

yes. thankyou for reminding me. space wolf spuds are leadership 8 to boot.
someone may have said them, but that guy in particular did not. I'm directing my comments to individuals not the herd.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Seaward wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

AF

LOLOLOL.

No. Just no. Grey Hunters are arguably the best troop choice in the game.

well... dont just assert it. argue it. what's so great about them?

I'm a little worried that I need to point it out when others already have in this thread, but very well.

They're cheap. They come with BP+CCW. They have Counter-Attack. Wolf Standard. Mark of the Wulfen. Two PWs per unit common when running them with a Wolf Guard sergeant stand-in.

So. What does that give us? A unit that can shoot far more effectively than a Blood Angel Assault Squad, a unit that can assault just as well as a Blood Angel Assault Squad, and a unit that can take a charge far better than a Blood Angel Assault Squad.

I know its fun and easy to let other people do your thinking for you, but I was hoping *you* would have something to contribute. I guess you don't so I'll just refer you to my responses to other people's points from here out, k?

whooooooo....

ok, lets all calm down.....


I will not take sides on the debate.
both choices are excellent.
but, for different reasons.
so lets move on, ok?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
I know its fun and easy to let other people do your thinking for you, but I was hoping *you* would have something to contribute. I guess you don't so I'll just refer you to my responses to other people's points from here out, k?

Well, no. You stated they were crap, then asked me why they were good. It's not my fault that the reasons why they're exceptional troops don't change.

Hopefully having seen it three or four times in a row will start to allow some of it to penetrate, because it's hard to buy anybody's advice as credible when they suggest that Grey Hunters are trash.

@ OP:

GWvsJohn wrote a really good, spot on review of the SM Codex on 3++. You dont have to agree on everything he says, but its a nice short summary (of course repeating some of the true things allready sad in this thread, but I think its worth a look).

http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/11/gwvsjohns-guide-to-space-marines.html

I'm moving on.
my comments were directed at OP anyway. if you want to convince him I'm wrong go for it.

stompydakka wrote:whooooooo....

ok, lets all calm down.....


I will not take sides on the debate.
both choices are excellent.
but, for different reasons.
so lets move on, ok?

I agree. I come on the tactics forums to discuss tactics and not see another witch hunt against AF. AF's ultra streamlined approach is how he rolls and tends to rub a considerable portion of the forum base the wrong way. If only people took something someone said with a grain of salt...

Nurglitch wrote:I agree with Grey Templar: AbbadonFidelis is the sort of poster that's best seconded to one's Ignore list.

well ignoring me is probably better than falling into fits of apoplectic rage when I express a contrary opinion......
honestly. I'm criticized for repeating the orthodox position one day.......
(there goes AF again, telling people to take vulkan and thunderwolves. he's a powergamer who gets all his ideas off the net. ignore him)
and then over here, when I'm not towing the party line on grey hunters, I get the exact opposite criticism
(no. just no. everyone KNOWS grey hunters are awesome. AF doesnt know anything about this game.)
I mean really. you all need to make up your minds.




and if you really need to ignore me in order to have a pleasant experience on dakka.... by all means. DO IT.

That said, I'm pretty excited to read his witty retort to zeekill's manifesto.

may have disappointed. not in the mood to flame people back tonight. but it's only 8pm eastern standard

Grey Templar wrote:ignore what Abbadonfidels says.

he just trolls threads to say that SM are bad and likes to argue the point. He also clearly doens't know what he is talking about as GH are among the top 5 best troops choices in the game(among Ork boyz, BA assault squads, Kabalite Warriors, and IG veteran squads)

And he's saying that BA assault squads are better than GH. Which are in the top 5 you just mentioned.


durrrrrrrrrrrp. Just because he has an unpopular opinion doesn't mean he's wrong. I would never run a AF style list- not my play style, I think it's a bit wankerish, and I think thats part of why I dislike the guy.

At the same time, I wouldn't want to have a smash against an AF style list, as it would be quite the fight (or maybe I would, since those games are the best...)

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

zeekill wrote:
What do you have?

an infinite resevoir of patience.

You ignored me, so i call BS there

Oh and

AbaddonFidelis wrote:somebody earlier said that bolters were the best standard issue gun in the game. that is.... errrr... just not so.

And then what is? I'd totally rather a boltgun standard issue than a grotblaster

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 01:33:36

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

jil wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

zeekill wrote:
What do you have?

an infinite resevoir of patience.

You ignored me, so i call BS there

errrr.... I guess you got me there.
developing a thicker skin as time goes on. I like to think....

jil wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:somebody earlier said that bolters were the best standard issue gun in the game. that is.... errrr... just not so.

And then what is? I'd totally rather a boltgun standard issue than a grotblaster

stern guard bolters with special ammo would be my nominee.

Reply by: Jihallah - click to view full reply 

18246

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 01:39:29

Post by: Jihallah

Yeah but I'm gonna argue that the bolter is more the "standard" weapon than sternguards special ammo, due to stormbolters being assault2 bolters, and everyone having a boltgun/stormbolter standard except assault troops (terms/jumppacks).

Now if the "standard" gun was special ammo sternguard bolters then we all know how much of a fan boi we would all be right?

And on the OP's subject, I nominate Sternguard as one of the pro's of the codex space marines. That ammo+combiround is no joke, especially since you can combat squad as you derp pod and hit two targets. Not cool!

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 01:42:17

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

yes sternguard are awesome shooters. if special ammo came standard codex sm would be ridiculous. hell if you could pay 5 points for the upgrade it would be ridiculous.

Reply by: Seaward - click to view full reply 

33125

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 01:45:01

Post by: Seaward

candy.man wrote:
I agree. I come on the tactics forums to discuss tactics and not see another witch hunt against AF. AF's ultra streamlined approach is how he rolls and tends to rub a considerable portion of the forum base the wrong way. If only people took something someone said with a grain of salt...

It's easy to take certain things with a grain of salt.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy.

That's not one of them. That's simply being wrong. Now, it's not his fault if he simply doesn't know the SW codex - or the way the game works - but it is if he refuses to listen to someone else explain it to him.

Reply by: Jihallah - click to view full reply 

18246

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 01:45:46

Post by: Jihallah

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yes sternguard are awesome shooters. if special ammo came standard codex sm would be ridiculous. hell if you could pay 5 points for the upgrade it would be ridiculous.

Isn't that why you can't ?

Ironclads are another thing that codex SM have that no one else has (BA dont have them do they (off the top of my head they dont...right?)). An AV13 walker that gets +1 on the damage chart, has a melta and a flamer and can derp pod in? My friend's codex marine army was lacking two things- he needed a little bit more close combat punch and a sprinkle more of AT. Totally killed two birds with one stone there. I've heard people complain they can't take a dread with 2 CCW's in codex marines- bugger that, gimme an Ironclad!

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 01:48:18

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

yeah I like ironclads. just to be clear I dont think c:sm are junk. thats what someone who cant read thought I said. I said tacticals are junk. the codex is good.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 01:48:41

Post by: Asherian Command

Thunderfire cannons,
Forge Masters
Chief Libarians,
Oribital Bombardment
Vulkan
Khan
Scarius
Redeemers
Land speeders that can drop infantry off
And the fact that we can have Conversion Beamers.
Yeah Space Marines Codex is awesome. I love it so much variety but if only you could have chapter traits without characters!

Reply by: Jihallah - click to view full reply 

18246

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 01:54:26

Post by: Jihallah

Seaward wrote:

candy.man wrote:
I agree. I come on the tactics forums to discuss tactics and not see another witch hunt against AF. AF's ultra streamlined approach is how he rolls and tends to rub a considerable portion of the forum base the wrong way. If only people took something someone said with a grain of salt...

It's easy to take certain things with a grain of salt.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy.

That's not one of them. That's simply being wrong. Now, it's not his fault if he simply doesn't know the SW codex - or the way the game works - but it is if he refuses to listen to someone else explain it to him.

That's an easy enough grain of salt. Look at a base marine vs grey hunter, without upgrades- because ultrastreamlined is how we run AF armies yeah?. 1 extra attack, acute senses (so rarely used) and counter-attack. So all he missed was the counter attack, which isn't that much of a game breaker, especially not in the ultra streamlined approach

Asherian Command wrote:Thunderfire cannons,
Forge Masters
Chief Libarians,
Oribital Bombardment
Vulkan
Khan
Scarius
Redeemers
Land speeders that can drop infantry off
And the fact that we can have Conversion Beamers.
Yeah Space Marines Codex is awesome. I love it so much variety but if only you could have chapter traits without characters!

I think Vulcan Khan and Land speeder storms are the only "awesome" things on the list. The others either are in other marine codices, are "good" or "solid", or are awesome in a fun sense (MotF/TH/Conversion Beamer= ultimate apocalyptic future biker), not the tactical sense. But I'm totally agreeing on the "chapter traits without characters" bit.

Reply by: Asherian Command - click to view full reply 

17923

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:00:19

Post by: Asherian Command

Ok. But I love forgemasters thanks to venerable dreadnoughts. OH YEAH Iron Clads.

Reply by: Nurglitch - click to view full reply 

4003

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:05:35

Post by: Nurglitch

The lower Leadership is an interesting disadvantage when you consider that the utility of Leadership isn't linear.

A unit with Ld9, for example, passes Leadership tests ~83% of the time. A unit with Ld8 passes those same tests ~72% of the time. A unit with Ld7 passes those same tests ~58%

Why would I mention a unit with Ld7? Because that's what a unit of Grey Hunters is going to have after its been hit with a Whirlwind barrage (-1 for ordnance barrage).

If the Grey Hunters take a Wolf Guard to increase their leadership and add the combat that a Sergeant adds to a Tactical Squad, then they have the choice of either a second special weapon or riding in a Rhino or Drop Pod.

But suppose you decided to go with the Razorback for your Grey Hunters, since a minimum-sized squad and a Wolf Guard can fit in there with a special weapon. So you have the dude with the special weapon, the dude with the flesh-ch-I mean 'Mark of the Wulfen', the dude with the Icon of 1, the Wolf Guard, and the guy with the Power Fist. Why, that's a complex unit!

Except now it's even easier to kill and has even less firepower. Not such a bad thing if the enemy obliges you by closing. But not great if they decide to engage you at ranges greater than 12". Codex Space Marines can do both better thanks to Combat Squads.

And it's interesting that Grey Hunters don't have A2, they have A1 in combination with a pistol, a close combat weapon, and a rapid fire weapon. That means that they don't get A1+1 for having a Powerfist and a Bolt Pistol. And they only get A1+1 for having a Power Weapon. There's a reason special close combat weapons on Chaos Space Marine Chosen are bad, because unlike Space Marine Veterans and Wolf Guard, they only have A1.

Tactical Space Marines only have A1, but you know what's better than 2 attacks on the charge, or even 3 attacks on the charge? Bolter: S4 AP5, Rapid Fire. If you can take it on in close combat, you're better off rapiding firing and moving into template range. If you can't take it on in close combat, at least you can run away (Combat Tactics), and you're better off setting up shop and using the Heavy Weapon/Combi-Weapon to kill it.

Reply by: Dracos - click to view full reply 

11988

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:10:00

Post by: Dracos

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yeah I like ironclads. just to be clear I dont think c:sm are junk. thats what someone who cant read thought I said. I said tacticals are junk. the codex is good.

What is it about tactical squads that make them "junk"?

Certainly their offensive output is minimal, but to say they are junk implies you should not take them at all. I think you fail to realize that tactical squads are primarily objective holders. In this role, they are actually pretty decent. Something that makes them better at this role is another so called "junk" item, the rhino.

Really, its your analysis that is junk. You are unable to see value in anything except offensive output.

Reply by: Yuber - click to view full reply 

31930

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:17:04

Post by: Yuber

Being an SW player myself, grey hunters are very good, but they are not the best. Why? Just look at other codices:

DE has Wyches, now those are awesome in CC.
Tyranids have Genestealers, again these guys are scarier.
BA has jumppack TROOPS? With force multiplier everywhere in the codex?
Chaos marines have T5 troops on PA. Now thats hard to move off an obs.

To anyone that says Grey hunters are "cheap" as a CC unit, not true. sure, their base cost is 15 points, and then you start adding toppings, like MotW, wolf standard, wolf guard and power weapons. And you'll see that their costs bump up high. Also, additional attacks ARENT that great, but hell, it beats having only 1. If you want them cheap just leave them as is. Keep them rapidfiring from with 2 special weapons and suck up assault with Counter attack. Now thats CHEAP.

And I agree with AF that BA ASM marines are better. ASMs are scoring, and they are either using their jumppack, or zooming 18 inch with their fast transport. They are either avoiding combat from a more powerful unit, or they will bully other poorer troop choices from other codices, which is how god intended troops to be.

If you look at them in a vacuum, BA ASMs aren't much of a big deal. And then you start putting in Sanguinary priests and librarians (shield and unleash rage) that are force multipliers other codices just dont have, esp SW.

Regarding to C:SM players saying how awesome tac squads are because you can split them, Im really having trouble seeing this as an advantage coz most of the time I see them played, they just get brutalized by 90% of the units in a competitive army list. 5 man Tacs just dont cut it, and that single heavy weapon isnt enough to justify splitting them into 2.

True, that tacs are kinda poorer compared to GH and ASMs, but hey you dont have any choice right?

Regarding Plasma Cannons. I dont wanna burst your bubble, bud, but if you are playing games where your plasma cannon dev squad is owning, you might have really poor competitiion there. Im just saying. Against competitive players, the best case scenario for your plasma cannon is killing a bunch of marines from a popped transport. Most of the time they'd be shooting just 1 marine behind cover. Not very impressive at all.

Reply by: striderx - click to view full reply 

26282

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:19:29

Post by: striderx

AbaddonFidelis wrote:grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

OMG, if GHs are junk, then hardly any other troops can be considered good

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:30:23

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

Dracos wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yeah I like ironclads. just to be clear I dont think c:sm are junk. thats what someone who cant read thought I said. I said tacticals are junk. the codex is good.

What is it about tactical squads that make them "junk"?

Certainly their offensive output is minimal

hold on. stop right there. that's it. nothing else about them matters if they don't kill stuff.

dracos wrote:
I think you fail to realize that tactical squads are primarily objective holders.

just get something to kill the enemy and hold objectives. I mean really. is that too much to ask?

dracos wrote:
In this role, they are actually pretty decent. Something that makes them better at this role is another so called "junk" item, the rhino.

ok I'll give you that. if you don't expect them to do anything except sit on an objective they're fine. low expectations if you ask me (which you did.)

Really, its your analysis that is junk.

like so much rain going pitter patter on the roof.

You are unable to see value in anything except offensive output.

I could just hug you.
AF

Reply by: kenshin620 - click to view full reply 

33033

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:35:12

Post by: kenshin620

Asherian Command wrote:Thunderfire cannons,
Chief Libarians,
Oribital Bombardment
Redeemers

TF are ok but way too fragile. If by chief you mean Tigirus, he's a bit vulnerable even with all his powers. Only OB worth using is probably the one with pedro. otherwise theres not much to it. Everyone else gets a redeemer after the 5th SM book

Reply by: OverwatchCNC - click to view full reply 

28365

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:35:57

Post by: OverwatchCNC

Asherian Command wrote:Thunderfire cannons,
Forge Masters
Chief Libarians,
Oribital Bombardment
Vulkan
Khan
Scarius
Redeemers
Land speeders that can drop infantry off
And the fact that we can have Conversion Beamers.
Yeah Space Marines Codex is awesome. I love it so much variety but if only you could have chapter traits without characters!

Thanks for staying on topic I'd have to say I disagree with Khan and Orbital Bombardments being anything great but at least Khan has a place in certain lists. The other thing you mention that I love are Land Speeder Storms full of scouts. Take 5 scouts w/ bp/ccw and give the Sarge a PF/Combimelta or Combiflamer throw them into a Storm w/MM and watch all the turn 1 assault or outflanking shenanigans happen. This might be one of my new favorite units in C:SM I only started using them about 3 weeks ago but they have proven to be a great compliment to my Salamanders.

Reply by: PraetorDave - click to view full reply 

34420

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:37:14

Post by: PraetorDave

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

rhinos dont do their main job - providing mobility to the squad - very well because they constantly get zapped by autocannons meltaguns lascannons etc. you need a more reliable mobility option.

So, if a Rhino isn't a reliable mobility option, what is? Wave Serpent? Almost 3 times more expensive. Raider? Their armor is about as useful as a wet paper bag. No the Rhino isn't perfect. But it is still a pretty reliable transport, and does its job most of the time.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

combat tactics is good on good units. splitting a bad unit in two just gives you two smaller bad units.
the ability to run away on command isnt the kind of go-for-the-throat aggression that I look for in a unit.
but thats just me.
AF

go-for-the-throat aggression? I'm surprised you ever win, with an attitude like that. Because any general worth their salt knows that a tactical retreat is often times more wise than sacrificing your men.

Reply by: kenshin620 - click to view full reply 

33033

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:37:20

Post by: kenshin620

Hmmm can we drop the banter about the GH? Make your own topic about the worth of GH and take it from there

Reply by: Thaylen - click to view full reply 

31000

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:38:44

Post by: Thaylen

Other advantages of Codex Marines not mentioned earlier are the 12 model capacity on the Classic Land Raider and Drop pod. Both of these have 10-man capacity in the newer codex. Being able to attach an HQ to the 5 man termy squad in a lascannon LR is a big bonus.

Reply by: Seaward - click to view full reply 

33125

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:50:36

Post by: Seaward

Yuber wrote:
If you look at them in a vacuum, BA ASMs aren't much of a big deal. And then you start putting in Sanguinary priests and librarians (shield and unleash rage) that are force multipliers other codices just dont have, esp SW.

So you're suggesting that if we start looking at units outside of the vacuum of that unit's statline, Space Wolves actually get WORSE?

Why is it so popular for guys riding on the newer codices' bandwagons to imply that their 'dex really isn't shiny and awesome compared to something written in, say, 3rd Edition, or even the beginning of 5th?

I know the answer, I just want to hear yours.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihallah wrote:

Seaward wrote:

candy.man wrote:
I agree. I come on the tactics forums to discuss tactics and not see another witch hunt against AF. AF's ultra streamlined approach is how he rolls and tends to rub a considerable portion of the forum base the wrong way. If only people took something someone said with a grain of salt...

It's easy to take certain things with a grain of salt.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy.

That's not one of them. That's simply being wrong. Now, it's not his fault if he simply doesn't know the SW codex - or the way the game works - but it is if he refuses to listen to someone else explain it to him.

That's an easy enough grain of salt. Look at a base marine vs grey hunter, without upgrades- because ultrastreamlined is how we run AF armies yeah?. 1 extra attack, acute senses (so rarely used) and counter-attack. So all he missed was the counter attack, which isn't that much of a game breaker, especially not in the ultra streamlined approach

That's pretty disingenuous, though. The question wasn't, "What're the advantages of Codex Space Marines in an ultra-streamlined list?" so considering it solely from that perspective is...fatuous. If I ran nothing but DoA lists, I might not value Land Raiders much, but saying that they're "junk" wouldn't exactly be telling the whole story, would it?

Reply by: Jihallah - click to view full reply 

18246

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 02:56:50

Post by: Jihallah

PraetorDave wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
combat tactics is good on good units. splitting a bad unit in two just gives you two smaller bad units.
the ability to run away on command isnt the kind of go-for-the-throat aggression that I look for in a unit.
but thats just me.
AF

go-for-the-throat aggression? I'm surprised you ever win, with an attitude like that. Because any general worth their salt knows that a tactical retreat is often times more wise than sacrificing your men.

Well when I play against my Orky friend I have two basic strats- I can shoot him up as he comes and hold the line for a counter attack when he reaches me, or i can reach him midway and butt heads to take the initiative in the brawl ahead- but both strats know that there is no glory in pointless defeat. Aggressive play style doesn't mean red army human wave tactics.

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 03:04:17

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:
Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

rhinos dont do their main job - providing mobility to the squad - very well because they constantly get zapped by autocannons meltaguns lascannons etc. you need a more reliable mobility option.

So, if a Rhino isn't a reliable mobility option, what is? Wave Serpent? Almost 3 times more expensive. Raider? Their armor is about as useful as a wet paper bag. No the Rhino isn't perfect. But it is still a pretty reliable transport, and does its job most of the time.

well the best thing is to not have a transport at all. take blood angels assault marines or space marine bikers. they're both more mobile than a tac squad + rhino, they give up only 1 kill point instead of 2, they dont force you to waste points on something with 0 offensive potential, and most importantly they don't make your squad's mobility dependent on the survival of a single av 11 tank in a melta rich environment.

if you have to have a dedicated transport out of codex: space marines I'd say drop pod. it's not as mobile as I'd like but there's nothing - nothing - your opponent can do to prevent them from getting in their face. they deliver the goods with regularity. rhinos have a disturbing habit of getting blown up mid field and stranding their occupants, dooming them to quasi-uselessness at best, and hot plasma death at worst.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

combat tactics is good on good units. splitting a bad unit in two just gives you two smaller bad units.
the ability to run away on command isnt the kind of go-for-the-throat aggression that I look for in a unit.
but thats just me.
AF

go-for-the-throat aggression? I'm surprised you ever win, with an attitude like that. Because any general worth their salt knows that a tactical retreat is often times more wise than sacrificing your men.

yes. many of you would be surprised at how often I win.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihallah wrote:

Seaward wrote:

candy.man wrote:

I agree. I come on the tactics forums to discuss tactics and not see another witch hunt against AF. AF's ultra streamlined approach is how he rolls and tends to rub a considerable portion of the forum base the wrong way. If only people took something someone said with a grain of salt...

It's easy to take certain things with a grain of salt.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy.

That's not one of them. That's simply being wrong. Now, it's not his fault if he simply doesn't know the SW codex - or the way the game works - but it is if he refuses to listen to someone else explain it to him.

That's an easy enough grain of salt. Look at a base marine vs grey hunter, without upgrades- because ultrastreamlined is how we run AF armies yeah?. 1 extra attack, acute senses (so rarely used) and counter-attack. So all he missed was the counter attack, which isn't that much of a game breaker, especially not in the ultra streamlined approach

That's pretty disingenuous, though. The question wasn't, "What're the advantages of Codex Space Marines in an ultra-streamlined list?" so considering it solely from that perspective is...fatuous. If I ran nothing but DoA lists, I might not value Land Raiders much, but saying that they're "junk" wouldn't exactly be telling the whole story, would it?

look this is a tactics thread. I just assume we're here to talk about the most competitive options we can think of. maybe dakka can make a "fun" forum so you guys who want to talk about something else won't feel so hot and bothered all the time.

Reply by: annabelle - click to view full reply 

25454

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 03:09:40

Post by: annabelle

I play Thousand Sons, any game against marines (Codex, SW, BA or chaos) makes me smile. My bolters are ap3, you see. The games I lose against marines are rare. When I do lose to a meq army it's due to several factors. 1 My opponent has proper list synergy. 2 My opponent understands that mobility is key. 3 My opponent understands target priority, this goes both ways, forcing me to make tough choices on where to shoot and fight and choosing where to correctly fire his guns and assault me. A marine player who follows these 3 rules will give me a run for my money every time.

Reply by: KingCracker - click to view full reply 

9217

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 03:15:15

Post by: KingCracker

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

KingCracker wrote:
And this folks, is what a BA fan boi sounds like.

sigh.... somehow I'm perceived as the instigator when I respond to this kind of stuff, so I guess I'll just let it go.

OP: if you just want to win, and dont care about having fun with your friends, then sure paint them red, and start playing BA. Or paint them greyish and play SW. Both those armies are REALLY good and are much easier to win with. That doesnt mean that the C: SM are junk. Really, you can ignore most of what AF is saying about them.

OP asked what was wrong with codex marines. I told him nothing. did you read my original response? I didn't say codex marines are junk at all. If you disagree with what I'm saying then let's have a discussion. But if you don't even know what I'm saying how is it possible?
AF

Whats there to discuss? Im pretty sure the things almost everyone else has responded with covers anything worth debating. I dont play SM, but I have played against them many times, and I can tell that your earlier comments were just WAY off, specially for a new player to hear. The things you said are VERY disheartening for a new player to hear, because they dont have the experience yet to know for themselves that most of what you said was just crap. I dont know if you say the things you do, because you like to get a rise out of others or not, but thats just not how one goes about it.

Reply by: OverwatchCNC - click to view full reply 

28365

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 03:16:34

Post by: OverwatchCNC

annabelle wrote:I play Thousand Sons, any game against marines (Codex, SW, BA or chaos) makes me smile. My bolters are ap3, you see. The games I lose against marines are rare. When I do lose to a meq army it's due to several factors. 1 My opponent has proper list synergy. 2 My opponent understands that mobility is key. 3 My opponent understands target priority, this goes both ways, forcing me to make tough choices on where to shoot and fight and choosing where to correctly fire his guns and assault me. A marine player who follows these 3 rules will give me a run for my money every time.

This is completely true. I think a major advantage of C:SM is it's ability to do all those things. 1. You can build lists with good synergy using C:SM 2. Rhinos/Razorbacks/Drop Pods/Raiders/LS Storms can supply you with superb mobility 3. The variety/mobility in the codex can allow you to take units that will force your opponent to make tough (wrong) decisions. Great thoughts annabelle!

kenshin620 wrote:Hmmm can we drop the banter about the GH?

Unfortunately it would appear we can't. Perhaps we will luck out and a MOD will step in at some point and get the thread back on topic for those of us who care about the topic rather than our own personal agendas .

Reply by: A Black Ram - click to view full reply 

30024

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 03:20:00

Post by: A Black Ram

The Advantages of Space Marines:

1. Win every game except those against Necrons.
2. High Armor.
3. High Ballistics Skill
4. High Weapon Skill
5. High Leadership
6. Choose your own chapter
7. Other notable aspects that actual SM players know.

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 03:24:36

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

KingCracker wrote:
Whats there to discuss?

well... if there's nothing to discuss.... then stop discussing it. I'll help. <click ignore>

Reply by: Jihallah - click to view full reply 

18246

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 03:25:53

Post by: Jihallah

AbaddonFidelis wrote:If you have to have a dedicated transport out of codex: space marines I'd say drop pod. it's not as mobile as I'd like but there's nothing - nothing - your opponent can do to prevent them from getting in their face. they deliver the goods with regularity. rhinos have a disturbing habit of getting blown up mid field and stranding their occupants, dooming them to quasi-uselessness at best, and hot plasma death at worst.

Yet we know the weakness' of all derp pod armies... I see the point, but Rhino's have their places. Different types of squads, different tools etc.

annabelle wrote:I play Thousand Sons, any game against marines (Codex, SW, BA or chaos) makes me smile. My bolters are ap3, you see. The games I lose against marines are rare. When I do lose to a meq army it's due to several factors. 1 My opponent has proper list synergy. 2 My opponent understands that mobility is key. 3 My opponent understands target priority, this goes both ways, forcing me to make tough choices on where to shoot and fight and choosing where to correctly fire his guns and assault me. A marine player who follows these 3 rules will give me a run for my money every time.

Posting Tactical advice in the Tactics forum? Nigh on unheard of!

Reply by: mrblacksunshine_1978 - click to view full reply 

19588

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 03:35:29

Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978

Shrubs wrote:C:SM is very playable and still one of the top codexes. What really separates them from BA and SW is:
- Librarian, null zone
- Biker troops
- Combat tactics

You got to kidding me, SM are not even in the top tier list anymore, more like tier 2. SW,IG, are the strongest codex in Tournament play or any play

Reply by: striderx - click to view full reply 

26282

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 03:43:16

Post by: striderx

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yes. many of you would be surprised at how often I win.
AF

Depends on how good your opponents are, not if they are 4 years old.
Well, what's your latest performance in any GT or the Ard Boyz?


Vulkan is still pretty awesome for the SMs.

Reply by: yournamehere - click to view full reply 

24127

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 03:56:38

Post by: yournamehere

To the OP if he is still listening.

The advantage of the SM codex is it's synergy and flexibility, as a player that went from playing strictly with the Orks codex to adding a SM army I was slightly disappointed with it as I was having a rough time getting used to the play style.

In time though I have learnt how to use synergy and support to it's greatest advantage which has influenced my ork list building and playing in good ways.

Unlike the Orks who can be fairly easy and straight forward to play ie. charge straight and fast and in turn can take the fun out of winning (like against armies that don't have enough weapons to take out my 120+ boys) You always come away with a good feeling when you win with sm because you would have had to have made some good decisions when building that army and playing that game.

I'm quite enjoying the difficulties of that codex myself...

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 04:05:26

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

striderx wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yes. many of you would be surprised at how often I win.
AF

Depends on how good your opponents are, not if they are 4 years old.
Well, what's your latest performance in any GT or the Ard Boyz?

Reply by: PraetorDave - click to view full reply 

34420

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 04:17:24

Post by: PraetorDave

So basically, everything out of AbaddonFidelis' metaphorical mouth is that if you want to win, play Blood Angels. Every other MEQ army isn't worth playing. Well, as someone who enjoys a battle, win or lose, I will agree to disagree. Now off to things that actually matter...

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 04:25:46

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

havent said that at all.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
to recapitulate, because alot of our posters seem to have some problems with basic reading comprehension....

a. codex marines are not as strong as blood angels or space wolves but they're a good army and for someone like OP who is just beginning they're a fine army to start with.
b. rhinos and tacticals are the weak points of the SM codex.

AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
in fact nevermind. I've said what I have to say on this thread. I'm done here.

Reply by: Brother-Thunder - click to view full reply 

32432

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 04:45:00

Post by: Brother-Thunder

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

brother thunderer wrote:
so...you are saying a 10 man, 155 point 2 meltagun squad with 30 attacks in almost every situation is junk...?

yes. that's what I'm saying. quantity of attack strategies dont work in a meta where every other model is high toughness, feel no pain, has a 2+ save, etc.

Also, Rhinoes are meant to get their cargo mid-field. Deploy 12 inches in, move 12, pop smoke. They just done their job.

once the transport gets blown away the guys are stranded. no mobility = no options. rhinos aren't hard to kill. you want mobility and options at all stages of the game not just on the 1st 2 turns.

more over, Have you not heard of the concept throw-away units? Like, an ork player bringing grots because they are cheap troop choices? for 75 points, scouts do their job of holding a point while being dirt cheap. Stop looking at things just for pure combat ability.

I have indeed. at 16 points a man tacticals dont qualify. dont recall the exact cost of grey hunters but they're comparable. if you're going to throw something away why throw away a tactical instead of a scout?

The advantage of combat tactics is denying assault armies the ability to charge a unit they need dead. I have screwed over so many other players with that trick.

sure. until they figure out that they can prevent you from doing this just by not shooting you. you save maybe 1 casualty vs. bolter pistols, maybe 1 or 2 more vs. plasma weapons. not good enough.

so, by your logic, raiders will suck, because they are base 25 points more and are AV 10 all around? The more and more I see what you have to say, the more I realize how little you know about the game.

sigh..... again I'm going to let the insult go and just address the issue. raiders are fast enough to reliably deliver the units they carry, which are close combat specialists. their destination is the enemy and once they get there they've done their job. since tacticals are supposed to be flexible rather than specialists they require options at all phases of the game. should have clarified earlier.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seaward wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

AF

LOLOLOL.

No. Just no. Grey Hunters are arguably the best troop choice in the game.

well... dont just assert it. argue it. what's so great about them?

10 grey hunters put out as much dakka as a 10 man tactical squad at the same BS and strength, while putting out twice as many special weapons fire at all phases of the game. They get more attacks at decent S in melee, have a 3+ save, and wolf-standard means they reroll ALL ones for a turn. Consider they can get dirt cheap transports and are hard as hell to crack once they get in cover. That is a troops choice I would take with glee.


Also consider that Tactical Marines are objective holders. They are not meant to take the fight to the enemy fast, but get to the objective and hold it with their lives. They do not need that rhino after turn 2, they are where they need to be as is. Marines are though as nails, they do not need to be really fast as a result.

A 5 man tactical squad is 90 points. for 15 points more, one gets a 3+ armor, and +1 to their WS and BS. Sounds good to me.

Reply by: Nurglitch - click to view full reply 

4003

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 04:49:17

Post by: Nurglitch

annabelle wrote:I play Thousand Sons, any game against marines (Codex, SW, BA or chaos) makes me smile. My bolters are ap3, you see. The games I lose against marines are rare. When I do lose to a meq army it's due to several factors. 1 My opponent has proper list synergy. 2 My opponent understands that mobility is key. 3 My opponent understands target priority, this goes both ways, forcing me to make tough choices on where to shoot and fight and choosing where to correctly fire his guns and assault me. A marine player who follows these 3 rules will give me a run for my money every time.

I like to think of it as having the proper combination of synergy, redundancy, and flexibility.

Mobility affects who you can see, what your range is, and how you can shoot. It also affects who you can charge. Mobility is therefore key to Shooting and Assault. Within Shooting there's a strict target priority at work in order to both minimize the retaliation next turn in turns 1-6, and to maximize winning the game in turns 5-7. Shooting also affects assaults. If a transport isn't destroyed with shooting, an assault squad may not have a target, casualty selection can be used to edge units out of an opposing unit's assault range, and you have to assault whatever you shot at. Shooting is also less risky than close combat, since self-inflicted wounds are limited to Perils of the Warp and Gets Hot. A weak round of shooting isn't going to see a shooting unit's target chew it to pieces with return fire, at least not until the next turn (again, affecting mobility and position).

The number of targets that a unit can address is important. At one target per unit, the army with two more units gets two units ignored on the first turn of shooting, and gets to concentrate the fire of up to three units without also engaging every unit in the opposing army. Most of the time fire will be concentrated on many fewer units because the power, range, and number of weapons is insufficient to complete the target priority checklist. Call this number the target priority shortlist: Without killing these units, the next turn is going to be very very bad for you. But also being able to engage MSU or multiple small unit armies is also important. Flexibility meshes really well with redundancy since a flexible unit can be spammed up to the number of Force Organization slots, whereas specialist units need to complement each other as well as have their own doubles or triples.

Synergy can be across phases or in the same phase, like a unit of Tactical Marines being delivered for optimal template range by a Rhino, a Librarian casting a Null Zone, or Vanguard Veterans using Scout Bikers to drop into close combat with enemy tanks on T2. Sicarius is the ideal Space Marine Captain because of the synergy he has with his army. Likewise the Librarian psychic powers are some of the best in the game because of their synergies.

You can really pile on the bonuses, but the trick is remaining flexible. That's why Combat Squad are good, because they allow your army to more finely distribute its firepower, and to waste enemy firepower on over-killing small squads.

Reply by: Yuber - click to view full reply 

31930

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 05:19:28

Post by: Yuber

After what all's said and debated. It all boils down to this:

There are 4 prevalent MEQ armies:

Blood Angels
Space Wolves
Chaos SM
Vanilla

Which one has the best troop? Which one has the worst?

I'm not sure who is the best, but I'm sure Vanilla is the worst.

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 05:26:33

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

Reply by: annabelle - click to view full reply 

25454

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 05:35:58

Post by: annabelle

Thanks for expanding that thought Nurglitch, I always value your input.

Reply by: striderx - click to view full reply 

26282

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 05:37:42

Post by: striderx

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

striderx wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yes. many of you would be surprised at how often I win.
AF

Depends on how good your opponents are, not if they are 4 years old.
Well, what's your latest performance in any GT or the Ard Boyz?

That kind of sums up your performance.

Reply by: Nurglitch - click to view full reply 

4003

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 05:49:08

Post by: Nurglitch

When you say "Vanilla" do you mean:

Ultramarines with Combat Tactics?
Salamanders with Twin-Linked Melta and Flamer weapons?
Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists with Stubborn?
White Scars with Outflank?
Raven Guard with Fleet?

More like Neapolitan. Because different tactics will apply. That's not counting the differences in using Bikes as Troops, and armies based around the Forge. Sometimes I wonder what people are thinking when they take Vulkan He'stan and leaving all their Techmarines at home. And they have Techmarines that are Independent Characters, and Drop Pods big enough for them and a squad. Iron Priests have no Independent Character status, and can't Bolster Defences. Blood Angel Techmarines aren't Independent Characters.

Stick the Techmarine in a Land Raider with a squad of Tactical Marines, or use him to bolster the crew of a Thunderfire Cannon, or just have him lurk near a patch of Dreadnoughts. A Venerable Dreadnought and a Techmarine are a great team.

Reply by: jdjamesdean@mail.com - click to view full reply 

34666

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 06:00:35

Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com

personally I love tactical squads. BA I take assault squads and miss my bolters, SW I miss my sgt, chaos ... well Nurge marines are nice but expensive
Gimme 3 tactical squads any day

Reply by: Yuber - click to view full reply 

31930

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 06:06:14

Post by: Yuber

Nurglitch wrote:When you say "Vanilla" do you mean:

Ultramarines with Combat Tactics?
Salamanders with Twin-Linked Melta and Flamer weapons?
Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists with Stubborn?
White Scars with Outflank?
Raven Guard with Fleet?

More like Neapolitan. Because different tactics will apply. That's not counting the differences in using Bikes as Troops, and armies based around the Forge. Sometimes I wonder what people are thinking when they take Vulkan He'stan and leaving all their Techmarines at home. And they have Techmarines that are Independent Characters, and Drop Pods big enough for them and a squad. Iron Priests have no Independent Character status, and can't Bolster Defences. Blood Angel Techmarines aren't Independent Characters.

Stick the Techmarine in a Land Raider with a squad of Tactical Marines, or use him to bolster the crew of a Thunderfire Cannon, or just have him lurk near a patch of Dreadnoughts. A Venerable Dreadnought and a Techmarine are a great team.

Yessir. I meant all of them. I, however, totally forgot about biker troops, which are very good IMO compared to the rest listed above.

I guess what I can say is that Tacs are only as good as the synergy of the entire army. But pound for pound, other Tac equivalents are just better.

Reply by: AspireToGlory - click to view full reply 

34811

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 06:12:48

Post by: AspireToGlory

pdawg517 wrote:

I wish people would just stop comparing tacticals and grey hunters. They are different units that perform different roles. Tacticals camp objectives with support where as grey hunters are more of a participant in the active battle.
.

Except that Grey Hunters camp objectives just as well as Tacticals do, and for cheaper. They can actually fight off assault and bob any vehicles that come too close as well.

Reply by: Nurglitch - click to view full reply 

4003

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 06:45:32

Post by: Nurglitch

Grey Hunters don't camp objectives well because they have a hard and fast range of 24". Outside of that range and they can't do anything. Which means either you place your objectives close to where your opponent will be able to muster plenty of force to curb your Grey Hunters, or far enough away that you'll be fighting short a squad of Grey Hunters.

In fact, the interesting thing about Grey Hunters is how absolutely mediocre they are if they can't get into close combat. Because Counter-Attack is only useful in close combat, and only then if the Wolves weren't already locked in combat. Counter-Attack doesn't make them less vulnerable to shooting, pinning, and charging. In fact having that rule instead of Red Thirst or Combat Tactics makes them more vulnerable.

Indeed, they share a weakness with the Icon-toting Chaos Space Marines in that the loss of the Icon means the loss of a squad-wide bonus. At least Chaos Space Marines don't depend on a specialist for their Ld9 (although they do for Ld10). Specialists can be picked off, by Mind War, or Telion, or a Vindicare, or by the simple act of overwhelming fire.

Grey Hunters do close combat well, and Counter-Attack plays to their strength. The Red Thirst likewise plays to the strengths of Blood Angel Assault Squads and reprieves them of a weakness, so they can't be pinned down, and use that strength effectiveless.

Tactical Squads do shooting best, and Combat Tactics plays to their strength. Upon Regrouping a Tactical Squad can fire its Heavy Weapon, or up to 24". An Ultramarine squad can Fall Back when suffering casualties from shooting without interfering with their stationary shooting ability when they regroup, and even buy themselves a new Shooting phase if they were pinned down. They can get out of danger, out of charge range as well as combat itself. However, in order for any of this to happen, the Ultramarine player has to use tactics whereby units support each other for synergy. Units that fall back need to be able to fall back more than 6" away from the enemy, and you need units positioned to both screen their regrouping and take advantage of the targets their movement frees up.

Dreadnoughts are Walkers and never Fall Back or suffer No Retreat. If you have a Tactical Squad in combat with a unit at the beginning of your own movement phase, then enter combat with your Dreadnought, lock the unit in place, and either win the combat with back up, or retreat the survivors of the Squad using Combat Tactics while the enemy is locked to the Dreadnought.

Basically Codex: Space Marines rewards the player that can use their army as a single entity rather than a collection of units.

Reply by: Yuber - click to view full reply 

31930

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 07:40:54

Post by: Yuber

Nurglitch wrote:Grey Hunters don't camp objectives well because they have a hard and fast range of 24". Outside of that range and they can't do anything. Which means either you place your objectives close to where your opponent will be able to muster plenty of force to curb your Grey Hunters, or far enough away that you'll be fighting short a squad of Grey Hunters.

In fact, the interesting thing about Grey Hunters is how absolutely mediocre they are if they can't get into close combat. Because Counter-Attack is only useful in close combat, and only then if the Wolves weren't already locked in combat. Counter-Attack doesn't make them less vulnerable to shooting, pinning, and charging. In fact having that rule instead of Red Thirst or Combat Tactics makes them more vulnerable.

Indeed, they share a weakness with the Icon-toting Chaos Space Marines in that the loss of the Icon means the loss of a squad-wide bonus. At least Chaos Space Marines don't depend on a specialist for their Ld9 (although they do for Ld10). Specialists can be picked off, by Mind War, or Telion, or a Vindicare, or by the simple act of overwhelming fire.

Grey Hunters do close combat well, and Counter-Attack plays to their strength. The Red Thirst likewise plays to the strengths of Blood Angel Assault Squads and reprieves them of a weakness, so they can't be pinned down, and use that strength effectiveless.

Tactical Squads do shooting best, and Combat Tactics plays to their strength. Upon Regrouping a Tactical Squad can fire its Heavy Weapon, or up to 24". An Ultramarine squad can Fall Back when suffering casualties from shooting without interfering with their stationary shooting ability when they regroup, and even buy themselves a new Shooting phase if they were pinned down. They can get out of danger, out of charge range as well as combat itself. However, in order for any of this to happen, the Ultramarine player has to use tactics whereby units support each other for synergy. Units that fall back need to be able to fall back more than 6" away from the enemy, and you need units positioned to both screen their regrouping and take advantage of the targets their movement frees up.

Dreadnoughts are Walkers and never Fall Back or suffer No Retreat. If you have a Tactical Squad in combat with a unit at the beginning of your own movement phase, then enter combat with your Dreadnought, lock the unit in place, and either win the combat with back up, or retreat the survivors of the Squad using Combat Tactics while the enemy is locked to the Dreadnought.

Basically Codex: Space Marines rewards the player that can use their army as a single entity rather than a collection of units.

Im gonna disagree with you there, Nurg. Greyhunters are good, because they are GOOD at shooting (at medium range). In fact, using them to engage in CC is a bad idea. Here's why:

-They have Counter Attack. When fighting other MEQs, instead of just charging them because of their extra attack, you can always just rapidfire them instead. Because assaulting MEQs needs a 4 to hit and another 4 to wound. Shooting them with bolters and 2 special weapons that hits on a 3 with no fightback is a better proposition.

-2 special weapons. Point for point, it is hard to outshoot greyhunters. Because they have 2 special weapons, 1 which they get free. Special weapons still fire even after moving, something a 10man tac squad doesnt enjoy when you want your heavy weapon to fire.

-Greyhunters are bad at CC. Why? because we all know that a squad is only as good as its power weapons. 5 Marines with a power weapon will beat 10 marines that doesnt have one most of the time. And bec, they only have an attack profile of 1. Its not really a good idea to purchase power weapons.

-Greyhunters have Ld of 8. 8 is pretty low when you start losing assault (which you will, assuming that units they engage have power weapons, which a competitive player will bring. And no, MotW is not good enough.) . You lose assault by 1, you have to pass Ld at 7. Very bad and very hard.

Bottom line:

10 Greyhunters with 2 flamers, 2 meltas or 2 plasmas will beat any configuration of tac squads in a shooting fest. In fact, the only way the tac squad can win is if they decide to take a Pfist and charge the GH's.

Reply by: ruminator - click to view full reply 

34120

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 09:56:28

Post by: ruminator

Vanilla SM aren't supposed to try and out assualt BA or our missile spam SW. They have things in their codex the other two can't do. Tried a Master of the Forge and 6 dreadnought list? Biker army? They also have a number fo HQ choices the others don't. Try to use them as a different list and play to their uniqueness ...

Reply by: Ed_Bodger - click to view full reply 

19247

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 10:01:43

Post by: Ed_Bodger

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Powerguy wrote:Tacticals aren't as great as Grey Hunters or BA Assault Squads, but I certainly wouldn't rate them as a bad/garbage troop unit.

grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

Not true the amount of add on you can provide to a GH makes them awesome. i.e. wolf standard re-roll every 1 in an assault phase - difficult terrain test, to hit, to wound, armour save. For 10 points fantastic.

Powerguy wrote:
Also suggesting that Rhinos are terrible units is ridiculous. For 35pts they are an absolute steal and for a list which wants to push into the mid field they are much better than Razorbacks as you can fire out the top. If you want to do a Razor spam list then SW probably do that better anyway.

rhinos dont do their main job - providing mobility to the squad - very well because they constantly get zapped by autocannons meltaguns lascannons etc. you need a more reliable mobility option.

Not if you use Rhino rush correctly pop smoke at the same time and pivot one rhino to protect two others.


Scouts certainly aren't great, but if all you want is a unit to grab an objective and don't care about damage output then they can do that for cheaper than Tacticals can.

rhetorical question.... why take a unit that isnt great... if you dont have to? isnt a great army made up of great units? so if you take just ok units arent you going to end up with a just ok army....?

Very few armies can say every unit in their codex is great even guard have some distinctly average units

The two most important abilities the nilla Codex has are actually missing from the list of stuff AF posted. Combat Squads and Combat/Chapter Tactics are imo what set the standard Marine codex apart from the others, they give you an unmatched flexibility with your list. The key thing to remember is that you are not BA or SW and there is no point playing or designing your list in the same way.

combat tactics is good on good units. splitting a bad unit in two just gives you two smaller bad units.
the ability to run away on command isnt the kind of go-for-the-throat aggression that I look for in a unit.
but thats just me.
AF

And that is where you fail to appreciate the tactics of C:SM combat squads are a fantastic option to have that allows you massive tactical diversity whilst keeping the same army list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voronesh wrote:I wouldnt rate Tacts as pure junk.

I was rather wondering whyd you list the Vanguard vets as 5th, as i would say theyre the crappiest of the bunch. Just say no to vanguard.

I just listed in order they occurred to me. no particular reason they're 5th.

And Rhinos arent junk, this is 5th ed, live by mech, die by the mech. If you play footslogger you either ave a very good plan (Shoot em all to hell works/Deep strike shenanigans) or you set yourself up for a hard game.

*mech* is good. its *rhinos* you want to avoid. dead rhino = dead squad. rhino is av11.
AF

Reply by: Jihallah - click to view full reply 

18246

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 12:50:08

Post by: Jihallah

Yuber wrote:Im gonna disagree with you there, Nurg. Greyhunters are good, because they are GOOD at shooting (at medium range). In fact, using them to engage in CC is a bad idea. Here's why:

-They have Counter Attack. When fighting other MEQs, instead of just charging them because of their extra attack, you can always just rapidfire them instead. Because assaulting MEQs needs a 4 to hit and another 4 to wound. Shooting them with bolters and 2 special weapons that hits on a 3 with no fightback is a better proposition.

-2 special weapons. Point for point, it is hard to outshoot greyhunters. Because they have 2 special weapons, 1 which they get free. Special weapons still fire even after moving, something a 10man tac squad doesnt enjoy when you want your heavy weapon to fire.

-Greyhunters are bad at CC. Why? because we all know that a squad is only as good as its power weapons. 5 Marines with a power weapon will beat 10 marines that doesnt have one most of the time. And bec, they only have an attack profile of 1. Its not really a good idea to purchase power weapons.

-Greyhunters have Ld of 8. 8 is pretty low when you start losing assault (which you will, assuming that units they engage have power weapons, which a competitive player will bring. And no, MotW is not good enough.) . You lose assault by 1, you have to pass Ld at 7. Very bad and very hard.

-Counter attack is great. But If you are trying to counterattack sternguard...well... AP3 bolters beat 2 plasma gunners quite often.

-2 special weapons at 150/155/160 points is pretty and, in a vacuum, will outshoot a tac squad. But in the same vacuum,My 115 vindi will outshoot your hunters, since you won't get close enough to use those melta's or get side shot on with prasma.

-Bad at CC...true. They certainly won't be clearing up swarms of genestealers with their fists. But having double the attacks of a tac marine doesn't leave the tac marine saying "man these grey hunters are pushovers!"


I am just playing the devils advocate here, but I'm doing so to point out things in 40k can be pretty subjective. A Tac marine isn't considered a solid CC fighter by pretty much anyone, but a guard squad ain't happy to be in close combat with 'em. Bolter's (according to AF and a few others) are terribad guns, but last time I rapid fired a mob of orks after flanking their cover they were pretty damn good. Havok squads were considered fairly crap when i started posting on these forums, last thread I saw about them they had quite a few fans of ML or AC wielding CSM's, after the metagame changed with new nids, MEQ's and now new DE... I think part of being a good general here is recognizing when and where your units have their pro's and con's. You wouldn't charge a assault terminator squad with grey hunters- but you'd gleefully do it to the IG HWS sitting on an objective!

Reply by: Sanctjud - click to view full reply 

18861

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 14:06:58

Post by: Sanctjud

Wel...you get to be called SMurfs instead of Edward/Jacob Marines...

Other than that, Vulkan Armies and Bike Armies, off the top of the head.

Reply by: Nurglitch - click to view full reply 

4003

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/15 19:28:12

Post by: Nurglitch

Yuber:

Tactical Squad with Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon vs Grey Hunters with 2x Plasma Gun. No contest.

If we start at 24", then you can either shooting 8 Bolters shots and 2 Plasma shots and hope you get lucky against 8 Bolter shots, 1 Plasma Shot, and 1 Plasma Blast, or you can weather a turn of shooting as you attempt to close to 12". Because sure you're mobile, but the range of a Plasma Cannon means you can't step out of range easily, and to step up to 12" means you need forgo shooting for at least a turn.

Even better, if you get a solid 25% casualties in one turn the Space Marines can automatically fall back, automatically regroup automatically, and then use the 36" range of their Plasma Cannon to continue to shoot the Grey Hunters. Even if they ran the full 12" they'll still be in range.

At 12" range the Grey Hunter's Plasma Guns are putting out four shots, which is riskier than the three shots that the Tactical Marines Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon are putting out. Against, if you cause enough casualties, they can fall back out of assault range, regroup, and pour on the fire as if they'd never moved.

Reply by: AllergicToTyranids - click to view full reply 

34005

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/16 05:14:16

Post by: AllergicToTyranids

I would like to give hearty thanks to the people who helped me with my original question.

on to the people taliking about grey hunters, I appreciate the information but please take your thread jacking somewhere else.

Reply by: Yuber - click to view full reply 

31930

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/16 05:21:58

Post by: Yuber

Nurglitch wrote:Yuber:

Tactical Squad with Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon vs Grey Hunters with 2x Plasma Gun. No contest.

If we start at 24", then you can either shooting 8 Bolters shots and 2 Plasma shots and hope you get lucky against 8 Bolter shots, 1 Plasma Shot, and 1 Plasma Blast, or you can weather a turn of shooting as you attempt to close to 12". Because sure you're mobile, but the range of a Plasma Cannon means you can't step out of range easily, and to step up to 12" means you need forgo shooting for at least a turn.

Even better, if you get a solid 25% casualties in one turn the Space Marines can automatically fall back, automatically regroup automatically, and then use the 36" range of their Plasma Cannon to continue to shoot the Grey Hunters. Even if they ran the full 12" they'll still be in range.

At 12" range the Grey Hunter's Plasma Guns are putting out four shots, which is riskier than the three shots that the Tactical Marines Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon are putting out. Against, if you cause enough casualties, they can fall back out of assault range, regroup, and pour on the fire as if they'd never moved.

The Plasma Cannon can only wound 1 marine when placed properly. On the bit about falling back and shooting: thats exactly what a SW player would want you to do in an actual game. You sacrifice an objective to gain fire superiority, you needed to fall back because the GH will rip you to shreds with rapidfire or out-assault you. Tacs simply cannot stay around and slug it out at rapid fire range.

Reply by: OverwatchCNC - click to view full reply 

28365

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/16 15:40:18

Post by: OverwatchCNC

AllergicToTyranids wrote:I would like to give hearty thanks to the people who helped me with my original question.

on to the people taliking about grey hunters, I appreciate the information but please take your thread jacking somewhere else.

I tried to help out by alerting a MOD to the jacking of your thread but to no avail. One last thought on C:SM. While taking one of the special characters will get you cool abilities don't overlook Combat Tactics. Being able to choose to run away after getting shot at so you can rapid fire into a unit next turn rather than get assaulted by them is quite a good little mechanic to use. I have had players do this against me and it can be frustrating to play against but super effective for the one using the tactic.

Reply by: Nurglitch - click to view full reply 

4003

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/16 19:38:18

Post by: Nurglitch

Yuber:

I see you're accounting for scatter on the Plasma Cannon and assuming that the Tactical Squad would be on an objective, rather than falling back to the objective. Something that Combat Tactics does is make Space Marine players form a line of battle. You don't go camp objectives, you go camp 7" in front of them, and lock the enemy down away from those objectives.

Because a Plasma Cannon will more reliably kill two Space Marines can a Plasma Gun will assuming a full 2" coherency and line formation. Why fall back if given the opportunity? Well, no point in trying to win a grinding match with a unit that carries only slightly less firepower, so fall back to where they are weak and you are strong because it costs you nothing.

I mean the Tactical Squad could stick around and more reliably win in a firefight between them and a Grey Hunter Squad. But why would they when the Space Marine player can take advantage of Combat Tactics, And They Shall Know No Fear, and a Heavy Weapon?

The best part is using Combat Squads to split the Tactical Squad in half. One Combat Squad is armed entirely with Bolters and Includes the Sergeant. The other Combat Squad is armed with a Plasma Gun and a Plasma Cannon, and getting a cover save from the squad in front. The back-up squad holds the line so that the front squad can fall back to somewhere that they can automatically regroup and shoot their attacker in combination with the backup squad, or run back into the screening position.

That's the advantage of Codex: Space Marines (excluding Chapter Tactics), that both Combat Tactics and Combat Squads allow the squad a sort of bonus like how the Wargear of Grey Hunters and Chaos Space Marines give them a bonus attack. Combat Tactics confers the option of an extra move. They can move, assault, and fall back all on the same turn. The move is risky in the sense that the unit risks being trapped falling back. The move is free in the sense that the unit suffers no shooting consequences at the end of the move, unlike ordinary regrouping units would - those units would count as moving for the purposes of shooting, so no Heavy Weapons or full range on Rapid Fire Weapons, and no Fall Back 18", regroup, move 12", assault 6".

The interoperability of units in the Space Marine Codex isn't just defined by their ability to transport x models, or stack rules (Like a Chaplain in a Terminator Assault Squad), but by the formation of models on the board. You have a better possibility of moving forward in one turn than back (6" move +1D6" run = 1/6 chance of 12", 2D6" fall back = 1/36). Your weapons have 12", 24", 36", and 48" ranges. Your bases are 1" in diameter (or close enough) and your maximum unit coherency is 2" in a line formation. Blast markers come in 3" and 5", and templates are 8" long.

This means defense in depth, and the ability to fall back to an advantage.

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/16 19:43:01

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

AllergicToTyranids wrote:I would like to give hearty thanks to the people who helped me with my original question.

on to the people taliking about grey hunters, I appreciate the information but please take your thread jacking somewhere else.

hey.... alot of us responded to your original question. you were off doing something else. if you want to keep your thread on topic try posting on it.
AF

Reply by: scubasteve04 - click to view full reply 

34110

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/16 19:52:37

Post by: scubasteve04

This may have been said before, but advantages of the Regular SM codex are:

Null zone librarians
Cheap TH/SS Terminators
Scoring Sternguard with Pedro
Vulkan melta/flamer spam
Combat squads and combat tactics
Wide variation of Special character choices (Lysander, Vulkan, Pedro, Shrike ect.)
Unlimited chapter selection possibilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This may have been said before, but advantages of the Regular SM codex are:

Null zone librarians
Cheap TH/SS Terminators
Scoring Sternguard with Pedro
Vulkan melta/flamer spam
Combat squads and combat tactics
Wide variation of Special character choices (Lysander, Vulkan, Pedro, Shrike ect.)
Unlimited chapter selection possibilities.

Reply by: OverwatchCNC - click to view full reply 

28365

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/16 20:45:28

Post by: OverwatchCNC

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

AllergicToTyranids wrote:I would like to give hearty thanks to the people who helped me with my original question.

on to the people taliking about grey hunters, I appreciate the information but please take your thread jacking somewhere else.

hey.... alot of us responded to your original question. you were off doing something else. if you want to keep your thread on topic try posting on it.
AF

It isn't up to the OP to keep his thread on topic. That is the responsibility of the members of the Dakka community, as members of the community we agree to abide by certain rules and etiquette. Part of that is keeping on the topic of the thread in which we are posting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

scubasteve04 wrote:This may have been said before, but advantages of the Regular SM codex are:

Null zone librarians
Cheap TH/SS Terminators
Scoring Sternguard with Pedro
Vulkan melta/flamer spam
Combat squads and combat tactics
Wide variation of Special character choices (Lysander, Vulkan, Pedro, Shrike ect.)
Unlimited chapter selection possibilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This may have been said before, but advantages of the Regular SM codex are:

Null zone librarians
Cheap TH/SS Terminators
Scoring Sternguard with Pedro
Vulkan melta/flamer spam
Combat squads and combat tactics
Wide variation of Special character choices (Lysander, Vulkan, Pedro, Shrike ect.)
Unlimited chapter selection possibilities.

I agree with this. I believe I forgot all about Null Zone librarians in my previous posts. Null Zone is a fantastic psychic power.

Reply by: Sanctjud - click to view full reply 

18861

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/16 20:49:49

Post by: Sanctjud

Don't forget to add:
-Army of Bikers possible.

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/16 20:51:02

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

w/e. I didnt bring up grey hunters. I had a one line response to someone else bringing them up, then half the board when ape gak. point is alot of people did respond to OP. he didnt respond back so the conversation moved on. AF

Reply by: shrike - click to view full reply 

10470

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/16 21:44:55

Post by: shrike

Grey Templar wrote:Chapter masters and Captains are poor choices

A captain on a bike w/ relic blade, SS, artificier armour does well. 195pts for 4x S6, ignoring armour attacks, which you need 5's to hit, 5's to wound, and 2+ armour. If you are lucky enough to be wielding a PW, it's still 3+. Combine that with a command squad w/SS and PW on bikes and a chaplain on bike, you can get:
(on the charge)

14 TL boltgun shots
4 S7 no-armour attacks
18 S5 no-armour attacks
all T5, needing 4's to hit, 5's to wound, then fail armour and then feel no pain.
Assuming you're fellow SM's, that means if you dish out 36 attacks, only one will die.

That's one tough cookie.

Under 600pts. (not bad).

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

20243

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 01:14:20

Post by: Grey Templar

sadly you can't use a SS with a relic blade

Reply by: scubasteve04 - click to view full reply 

34110

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 01:55:07

Post by: scubasteve04

Yes you can

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

20243

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 01:55:58

Post by: Grey Templar

*look at codex

Reply by: Yuber - click to view full reply 

31930

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 02:26:30

Post by: Yuber

Nurglitch wrote:Yuber:

I see you're accounting for scatter on the Plasma Cannon and assuming that the Tactical Squad would be on an objective, rather than falling back to the objective. Something that Combat Tactics does is make Space Marine players form a line of battle. You don't go camp objectives, you go camp 7" in front of them, and lock the enemy down away from those objectives.

Because a Plasma Cannon will more reliably kill two Space Marines can a Plasma Gun will assuming a full 2" coherency and line formation. Why fall back if given the opportunity? Well, no point in trying to win a grinding match with a unit that carries only slightly less firepower, so fall back to where they are weak and you are strong because it costs you nothing.

I mean the Tactical Squad could stick around and more reliably win in a firefight between them and a Grey Hunter Squad. But why would they when the Space Marine player can take advantage of Combat Tactics, And They Shall Know No Fear, and a Heavy Weapon?

Pretty curious tactic you have there. One that I havent seen used at all. Normally, Codex marine users, they just sit on the objective, not 7" ahead of them. But then again falling back to an objective doesnt necessarily stop the GH from contesting the objectives you have fallen back into.

Combat squadding them into a 2-line unit is bad idea IMO. And this is because I assume the Sgt doesnt have a power weapon. ill just dog pile 10 bodies of GH with extra attack on your 5 man tacs. They will more likely to lose assault, and I would have denied your Plasma squads their targets.

But then again, let's not turn this into a GH versus Tac grudge match because both have different roles.

Reply by: Leo_the_Rat - click to view full reply 

27903

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 02:39:17

Post by: Leo_the_Rat

@ Grey Templar - Check the FAQ:
Q. The rules for both the relic blade and the
storm shield simply state that a model with one
of these pieces of wargear cannot have +1 Attack
for an additional close combat weapon. Is it
therefore possible to equip a model with both a
storm shield and a relic blade?
A. The rules for two-handed weapons in the
rulebook and the rules for storm shields and relic
blades are not in contradiction. So you can have
both a storm shield and a relic blade, which I
think makes for rather cool models!

Reply by: Stormrider - click to view full reply 

28942

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 04:35:18

Post by: Stormrider

I love seeing Marine Players complain about Rhinos, I wish I had a transport that cost 35pts. Sorry it cant have three sets of TL Lacannons. Everything is priced for a reason. Rhinos are like the casing for a liquid pill, they do their job of getting the medicine to the target area, whether they survive is secondary.

As for the original topic, Vanilla Marines are a great introductory army to 40K. Lot's of choices of units, good skills overall, great wargear. Hard to just cast it all off as crap. Every Vanilla Codex Marine Character outclass alot of other armies best overall character easily.

And Yes, I have a small force of Marines. They're going to be a display army more than a tourney army.

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 04:40:01

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

I'm not aware that anyone said codex: space marines was crap. I'm building an imperial fists army right now.

the issue with rhinos is that, cheap or expensive, they dont do the job. wave serpents, for instance, are good transports. they're expensive, but they're also fast and reliable.

Reply by: Stormrider - click to view full reply 

28942

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 05:02:58

Post by: Stormrider

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I'm not aware that anyone said codex: space marines was crap. I'm building an imperial fists army right now.

the issue with rhinos is that, cheap or expensive, they dont do the job. wave serpents, for instance, are good transports. they're expensive, but they're also fast and reliable.

What's your definition of "do the job"?

Reply by: kenshin620 - click to view full reply 

33033

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 05:05:37

Post by: kenshin620

Dont give easy KP without sitting in the back doing nothing?

Reply by: Stormrider - click to view full reply 

28942

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 05:37:53

Post by: Stormrider

kenshin620 wrote:Dont give easy KP without sitting in the back doing nothing?

Fair enough

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 05:42:19

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

Stormrider wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I'm not aware that anyone said codex: space marines was crap. I'm building an imperial fists army right now.

the issue with rhinos is that, cheap or expensive, they dont do the job. wave serpents, for instance, are good transports. they're expensive, but they're also fast and reliable.

What's your definition of "do the job"?

well.... the ideal transport would...
1. be able to stand up to a moderate amount of fire power.
2. be fast enough to reliably get the squad to its target.
3. carry moderate offensive firepower.
The more of those it has the better. on that criteria rhinos are obviously out... they're a fail on all 3.
trukks, razorbacks and drop pods have 1 of those so they're ok.
raiders, blood angels razorbacks and immolators have 2 so they're good.
waveserpents have all 3 so they're ideal.... so do land raiders although they're more like a main battle tank with transport capacity... and too expensive for the job anyway....

just musing.

Reply by: Brother-Thunder - click to view full reply 

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Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 05:54:40

Post by: Brother-Thunder

I run rhinoes. They work for what I need them to do: get that troop sitting on an objective. Also, consider the rest of a space marine list, filled with juicier targets for AV. Target Saturation can help a Rhino's survivibality big time.

Reply by: AbaddonFidelis - click to view full reply 

30949

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 06:00:49

Post by: AbaddonFidelis

true

Reply by: WarOne - click to view full reply 

25220

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2010/11/17 06:09:19

Post by: WarOne

And a Razorback is simply a Rhino with upgraded weaponry and a higher point cost.

Hell, both of these transports are paper-thin, but then again, if you can get 4-6 on the field and not have them be considered the biggest threat to eliminate, it gives your squads and their DTs that much more survivability.

Reply by: mwnciboo - click to view full reply 

22413

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 13:36:10

Post by: mwnciboo

Okay I have read alot of things on this thread and now I'm going to wade in. People tell me my Chapter should use SW because they look like them, I say "no" they are vanilla SM from the Ultra's.

WHY!!!! Says everyone here is an example using LONG FANGS vs DEVASTATORS

LF get 5 x HW + 1 x Sgt and can add a WOLF GUARD..plus counter charge and Fire control ...Looks awesome right?

But wait Max unit size 6? And they all MUST CHOOSE A HW = lots of points but yes they are slightly cheaper. But I don't have any wound absorbing units, so everytime i lose a model its worth more points. But my Vanilla SM have no such restrictions, they can have one HW, I can use the Signum for a BS 5 LC shot or PC shot and the other 3 have bolters, I can take a further 5 models for ablative wounds hmm flexibility... The Long Fangs can Divide fire under Fire Control, I could Combat Squad my 10 man vanilla squad, one with a Signum and LC for Anti-tank the other for whatever and split my fire.

What you gain with one hand you lose with another, but the C:SM is built around flexibility.
Counter Charge for Dev's great, but shouldn't they be laying down fire not smacking the enemy in the grid with a Lascannon or Missile Launcher? Its not playing to their strength.

I wouldn't like my Devs restricted to 5 HW and all had to take a HW it eats into my points and my options maybe I want a 5man Dev squad with only 2 HW's because I am short on points, the SW Codex doesn't allow it.

It is too easy to say, "Rubbish Blah,blah ,blah Death Company are well better than ...." If you compare like for like you'll find the subtle differences, checks and balances and you should look to exploit these in your tactics and strategies. 40K would be dull as **** if everyone had the same Army spam list power gaming I have an undefeatable army...Yeah well even the greatest armies get defeated if poorly led.

I am sure someone is going to pull this apart now. Oh and thread necromancy but this has been a good debate and needs an injection.

Reply by: scubasteve04 - click to view full reply 

34110

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 14:54:45

Post by: scubasteve04

The biggest problem for vanilla devs is the price (230pts for a 10 man, 4x missile squad), and competition for heavy slots. I personally would like to see a price drop in 6th edition, and maybe Lysanders chapter tactics making Devs scoring like Pedro makes sternguard scoring.


As for rhinos, they may not be wave serpents, but they are 35 bloody points! They don't have paper armor like raiders or trucks, and they are simple and cheap and get the job done.

Reply by: NuggzTheNinja - click to view full reply 

20677

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 15:04:11

Post by: NuggzTheNinja

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
tacticals are fine for friendly play I guess. but they really are pretty poor in terms of capabilities, considering what you pay for. w/e. you're paying 16 points a man for a guy whose main advantage - a 3+ armor save - is largely nullified by the easy access to 4++ cover that everyone else enjoys. basically you're paying out the for a slightly improved version of what everyone else gets for free. that's not ok. but yeah w/e run them for your friendly games if you want. I play pretty cut throat so I dont have any room for these guys.



your main advantage as a marine player is your mobility and flexibility. use drop pods and razorbacks. never walk. never use a rhino. AF

Yeah, Tactical Marines absolutely blow compared to similar armies' equivalent troops.

They can't take two Special Weapons (CSM, SW), they don't get a huge rebate on access to FAST vehicles and end up getting them cheaper (BA Assault Squads and Razorbacks), they don't have Counter Attack (SW), and they don't have Bolter/BP/CCW.

The biggest weakness in the Marine dex is that there is no reason to want to take Tactical Marines aside from the requirement for scoring units. They have less attacks, less useful abilities, and poorer wargear choices than any equivalent army's troops selections, AND they cost more. What!?



Competitively speaking, nearly any army list you can make with Codex Space Marines, you can always make with Codex Blood Angels and the units will be better, faster, and cheaper.

Reply by: Spellbound - click to view full reply 

4298

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 17:11:42

Post by: Spellbound

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
grey hunters are junk too. people get all excited because they have an extra attack. whoopy. BA assault squads are what a good troop choice looks like.

This is what someone who doesn't know how to play the game looks like.

Grey Hunters have an extra attack like your BA ccw guys, except they also get bolters, so they can be more shooty than your BA guys. They also get counterattack, so they get an EXTRA attack, even when charged. They also have acute senses, but whoopdedoo.

But that's not the best part! The best part is getting TWO meltaguns for FIVE frickin' points. 155 points of Grey Hunters look at 170 points of Chaos Marines and say ".....yeah dude, we're just plain BETTER than you." same weapon loadout, PLUS counterattack, PLUS ATSKNF, PLUS acute senses, but cheaper. Lame.

Reply by: mwnciboo - click to view full reply 

22413

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 17:52:09

Post by: mwnciboo

I don't care about BA particularly, but as GH go they are to me the closest thing to STERNGuARD in a TACTICAL SQUAD and that makes them the best all round space marine troop unit in the game... There is far too much BA popularism going on at the moment. "MEPHISTON" I mean seriously, he is basically a Daemon for feths sake. THis is even hinted at in the fluff...Those Furioso Dreads are annoying as hell, I have seen MEPH kill a horde of Orc's without a scratch because he had an apothacary near him. Its units like him and Abbaddon that make the game stupidly dull, I mean why would MEPH even get out of bed for a 1000pt skirmish, he is a living legend. Why bother with tactics when you can field an uber killy unit and watch him arse rape another army for 3 hours from one side of the board to another..

Reply by: shrike - click to view full reply 

10470

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 18:10:47

Post by: shrike

NuggzTheNinja wrote:They have less attacks, less useful abilities, and poorer wargear choices than any equivalent army's troops selections, AND they cost more. What!?

Marines have poor troops? Talk to any tau, chaos, necron or sister player before you say that. You're just comparing it to more recent codexes.

Reply by: mwnciboo - click to view full reply 

22413

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 19:00:21

Post by: mwnciboo

Damn double post...... :( I love tactics, battles and strategies. I hate uber killy neigh on invincible units, just makes the game 2 dimensional...

Reply by: Spellbound - click to view full reply 

4298

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 19:37:24

Post by: Spellbound

I just hate how many marine characters (2, which is two too many) have the toughness of a trygon. It's just stupid. So you're a super tough space marine? Here, have feel no pain. Wanna be t5? Buy a bike.

Reply by: NuggzTheNinja - click to view full reply 

20677

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 19:55:49

Post by: NuggzTheNinja

shrike wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:They have less attacks, less useful abilities, and poorer wargear choices than any equivalent army's troops selections, AND they cost more. What!?

Marines have poor troops? Talk to any tau, chaos, necron or sister player before you say that. You're just comparing it to more recent codexes.

Tau and Necrons are both recognized as some of the weakest codices period. They are also not "equivalent armies".

On the point of Chaos and Sisters, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Sisters can do disgusting things with Faith Points, and Plague Marines are some of the best troops choices in the game. 115 points for 5 Fearless bolter/bp/ccw Marines with T4(5) and FNP, defensive grenades, and the ability to take two Special Weapons at any squad size? Glorious!

Vanilla Tactical Marines are one of two mediocre selections that C:SM players are forced to take. They cost far too many points for what you get. If they had bolter/bp/ccw, were 15 pts ea. w/ the free vet sgt, special and heavy weapon, and had the option of taking one special or heavy weapon per 5 guys, then they would be worth taking.

Reply by: shrike - click to view full reply 

10470

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 19:59:53

Post by: shrike

So they'd be worth taking if they had a heavy and special weapon free per squad, and an extra heavy and special weapon per 5 guys?
So you could have 3 plasma guns and 3 plasma cannons per squad, with 2A each? That's quite OP.

Reply by: NuggzTheNinja - click to view full reply 

20677

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 20:03:39

Post by: NuggzTheNinja

shrike wrote:So they'd be worth taking if they had a heavy and special weapon free per squad, and an extra heavy and special weapon per 5 guys?
So you could have 3 plasma guns and 3 plasma cannons per squad, with 2A each? That's quite OP.

Not what I was saying at all...

The entry is the same as it is now, 90 pts for the first 5 guys, 15 pts for each model after that. So a full squad would cost 165.

Each model has a bolter, bolt pistol, and CCW. Instead of one free heavy and one free special at 10 men, it would read, one free special or heavy per 5 men in the squad. So a full 10 man squad could have either one special and one heavy, two heavies, or two specials. Obviously PCs, LCs, Melta guns, plasma guns, etc., would keep their existing points cost.


This is actually insanely tame considering Guard can take Vet squads with 3x plasma guns and 1x autocannon HWT plus a demo charge for less.

Reply by: shrike - click to view full reply 

10470

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/27 20:23:38

Post by: shrike

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

shrike wrote:So they'd be worth taking if they had a heavy and special weapon free per squad, and an extra heavy and special weapon per 5 guys?
So you could have 3 plasma guns and 3 plasma cannons per squad, with 2A each? That's quite OP.

Not what I was saying at all...

The entry is the same as it is now, 90 pts for the first 5 guys, 15 pts for each model after that. So a full squad would cost 165.

Each model has a bolter, bolt pistol, and CCW. Instead of one free heavy and one free special at 10 men, it would read, one free special or heavy per 5 men in the squad. So a full 10 man squad could have either one special and one heavy, two heavies, or two specials. Obviously PCs, LCs, Melta guns, plasma guns, etc., would keep their existing points cost.


This is actually insanely tame considering Guard can take Vet squads with 3x plasma guns and 1x autocannon HWT plus a demo charge for less.

hmm, I guess that would be fair...but then marine codex units are either OP or under-powered.
sternguard, TH/SS termies, libbies, vulkan, lysander, ect. are OP, so C:SM should have some underpowered units too. If they were any other slot no-ne would take them, leading to over-powered lists. forcing you to take slightly nerfed units means more balanced gameplay (kinda)

Reply by: Spellbound - click to view full reply 

4298

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/28 00:02:02

Post by: Spellbound

Tac squads do damage and take damage. That's what marines do. They aren't spectacular squads, they're tactical squads. I wouldn't mind if they had the chaos bit where up to 9 you can take an assault and at 10 you get a heavy, instead of the "get 10 or go naked" thing. Then again I would also like to see csm squads get 2 weapons per 5 period, so we could go legion-style with 4 weapons in a 20-man squad.

Blood angels tac squads really are about the same, with just a 1/6 chance to get a buff and faster transports, which is a rule of the transport not the unit. Assault squads do less shooting damage but get more attacks. There's synergy with sanguinary priests, but again that's a priest ability not the assault squad. I don't see much difference between ba troops choices and codex marine troops. Space wolves? Now there's some real superiority.

Reply by: Guitardian - click to view full reply 

18176

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/28 17:03:31

Post by: Guitardian

The synergy of sanguinary priests makes all the difference in the above post. My pansy little emo eldar don't have access to Feel No Pain like well, just about every other army out there, and I think it is one of the best abilitys in the game. Must be nice to have a roving bubble of it. In defense of the SM vanillas, they don't really have much access to it either. Just the captain gets an apothecary and it doesn't bubble around where you need it. So in that regard the BA have a big advantage over them even with their regular tactical squads, who may be "about the same". Well, if you look at the number of BA lists posted here for review and tweaking, you will notice that BA don't use their tactical squads much either.

FOC slots is another big problem for SM versus BA versus SW. Looking at each unit separately, you get the sense of SM and BA having many similar units. All well and good, but compounding the assault marines as troops means 3 open slots of FA ready to use the Landspeeders in mass, Baal preds, instead of having to dodge around trying to find a balance between stuff in that category. Likewise, having to take 2 devastator squads to split fire instead of 1 long fang squad, means 2/3 of your HS gone. A SM tank list is unheard of (unless you call a Lazorback a tank) but a BA tank list is very possible. The point is this: BA can make a SM equivalent vanillla flavored list if they want to (but they don't bother because their own flavor is simply superior), but vanilla SM cannot make a blood flavored list.

Reply by: Lorek - click to view full reply 

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Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/28 18:56:40

Post by: Lorek

Guys, next time, check to make sure you're not re-opening an old thread when you post a reply; you're better off starting a new thread (it's called thread necromancy).

I'll leave this open for now as there's been a fair bit of discussion, and it would be impractical to ask you all to repost in a new thread.

Reply by: schadenfreude - click to view full reply 

23433

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/02/28 21:20:57

Post by: schadenfreude

There are small advantages to each codex, and there are the top tier advantages to each codex.

Top Tier advantages of codex share with BA, SW, BT, and DA ie stuff they do have an equivalent of.

Lysander & TH/SS termies: Both are combat monsters that can keep codex marines on par with special chapters in the areas of HQ combat monster and elite deathstar unit.

Top Tier advantages of codex over BA, SW, BT, and DA ie stuff they don't have any equivalent of.

Vulkan: Build an entire army around TL melta, TL flamers, and lots of MC TH/SS.

Null Zone: Nobody else has it. If codex marines have TH/SS, non codex have TH/SS, and they get into a TH/SS on TH/SS smackdown the guy with an active null zone on his side wins.

Reply by: Rex-Nine - click to view full reply 

32683

Advantages of Codex Space Marines @ 2011/03/01 02:28:07

Post by: Rex-Nine

I posted this in some other forum and am now posting it here, I added the puppy stuff for the fun of it.

Rex-Nine wrote:

Guitardian wrote:I also think tactical squads, while not the worst unit, are pretty inefficient. People say "horray! I get a free flamer and missile launcher" but they forget that they are overpaying for Sarge, and that cost is figured in.

Comparatively to any other Marine-like codex, they suck. No other version of Marines requires a full 10 models in order to get a weapon upgrade. Who wants to buy 5 marines and overpay for sarge? Your hand is forced by practicality to throw on the extra 5 guys or it's just a useless squad. When you do add the "free" missile launcher and flamer you have a choice between splitting into two squads that are either too small to last long in cc, or one big squad with multiple personality disorder that will either never fire anything but the missile, or never fire the missile.

Not true, at my local GW they wanted to know out of all the space marine codexes who had the best marines? so they had a bunch of small games with all of the SM codexes, SM with tac squad, SW with grey hunters, BA with assault marines, and so on. All squads were at full strength and could only take free upgrades. In one game we had a full squad of tac marines with free flamer and ML and pit them against a full squad of gray hunters and boom those space pups ate dirt.

Why? 1: the tac squad was split in to combat squads, now those puppies could only deal with one squad at a time. the pups got blasted by the ML, and turned in to hot dogs by the flamer!

2: the puppies shot as they advanced of corse! But this was not the best idea as the tac marines just failed their moral and fell back, making it harder for the puppies to get in to close combat!

3: O look the puppies got into close combat with A (remember a unit can only shoot, assault one target at a time, so that leaves the other combat squad to rapid fire the pups) tac combat squad, the tac squad is going to die now finaly! But what is this??? they failed their moral test and are falling back? how are the pups going to hit them now? ( I know thats only if they live, which they did, and the pups can do a sweeping advance but more often then not I have seen a tac squad escape from cc, which they did) Now both of the tac marine combat squads just rapid fired and flamed the pups in the face during their turn!

The SM player only lost 4 marines in that game! The same thing happened between the SM and the BA, but it was a close match with the SM on top by 2 guys! As it turned out the SM came out on top of all the others! This is not to say that all other marines eat dirt, It showed us that all of them are great if you take advantage of their special rules and use them in roles they were made for (do not send a tac squad into CC, that is why they have combat tactics to avoid CC!)

Rex-Nine



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rex-Nine wrote:This is not to say that all other marines eat dirt, It showed us that all of them are great if you take advantage of their special rules and use them in roles they were made for (do not send a tac squad into CC, that is why they have combat tactics to avoid CC!)

Rex-Nine

just reposting this because some people do really dumb stuff! Putting a Tac squad in CC is like avoiding CC with BA Assault marines!!! (Thats as useless as tits on a bull!)