I have recently switched to Imperial Fists, fielding Lysander as my HQ choice. After playing just 2 games, I have come to the realisation that there is little this CC beast cannot kill. He can bend most special characters over a barrel, and pop Land Raiders and Moniliths and any lesser vehicle with little effort. Toughness 8? Dreadnoughts? lol.

He needs to be swamped pretty bad to be taken out. Statisticaly you need 48 power weapon attacks assuming Str 4 and WS6 or lower (48 attacks, 24 hit, 12 wound, 8 saved and 4 failed on a 3+ save= dead) or 96 regular attacks assuming Str 4 and WS 6 or lower. His biggest weaknesses are his moblity, lack of range, and initiative 1, and the fact he can only be anywhere once.

Can you think of a list of single model non-apoc MCs/ICs/SCs/walkers that can take him out in 1 on 1 combat? I can think of a few but not many:

Nightbringer/Deciever
Ghazthraka on his special Waaagh maybe
Some other EW ICs might have a chance

Tau's very own Aun'Va. Lysander'd laugh himself to death.

Possibly the Swarmlord after knocking him down to WS BS 1

This is one of the many possible reasons I run a Libby with Null Zone and XXXXX

Grey Knight Grand Master, one unsaved wound and he's gone.

The Swarmlord
Mephiston
Ghazkghull Mag Uruk Thrakka, assuming that he gets to use his Waaagh!
Abaddon the Despoiler, assuming decent rolls for his Daemon Weapon
The Nightbringer
The Deceiver

Swarmlord. If he gets off psychic power its easy. Even without the WS 1 debuff he would win. 6 attacks with rerolls to hit, which hit on 3's, will wound on 2+ and Lysander will have to reroll made saves.

MinMax wrote:The Swarmlord
Mephiston
Ghazkghull Mag Uruk Thrakka, assuming that he gets to use his Waaagh!
Abaddon the Despoiler, assuming decent rolls for his Daemon Weapon
The Nightbringer
The Deceiver

Why Mephiston? Its a 3+ invul save vs no invul save. Both are wounding on 2s, and after the first round of combat, meph is striking at init 1.

Old Zogwort can probably take him if he transforms him to a Squig first

Marneus Calgar in the same codex.
The Avatar of Khaine.
Bloodthirster.
Keeper of Secrets.
Great Unclean One.
Skarbrand.
Kugath.

I don't think Mephiston would do it though. He'd get slapped with a T-hammer and go at I1 next turn

Only the old force weapons pose a threat

Ku'gath SP? maybe 6 wounds $++ and poisoned MC attacks are nice

scubasteve04 wrote:I have recently switched to Imperial Fists, fielding Lysander as my HQ choice. After playing just 2 games, I have come to the realisation that there is little this CC beast cannot kill. He can bend most special characters over a barrel, and pop Land Raiders and Moniliths and any lesser vehicle with little effort. Toughness 8? Dreadnoughts? lol.

He needs to be swamped pretty bad to be taken out. Statisticaly you need 48 power weapon attacks assuming Str 4 and WS6 or lower (48 attacks, 24 hit, 12 wound, 8 saved and 4 failed on a 3+ save= dead) or 96 regular attacks assuming Str 4 and WS 6 or lower. His biggest weaknesses are his moblity, lack of range, and initiative 1, and the fact he can only be anywhere once.

Can you think of a list of single model non-apoc MCs/ICs/SCs/walkers that can take him out in 1 on 1 combat? I can think of a few but not many:

Nightbringer/Deciever
Ghazthraka on his special Waaagh maybe
Some other EW ICs might have a chance

the swarm lord has a pretty good shot at killing lysander. abaddon does too. gazkull charging of course. sisters cannonness provided she doesnt run out of faith points.
cant think of much else. lysander is a beast.
AF


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mephiston will die horribly vs. lysander.

What special rules does Abbadon have to kill Lysander (not familiar with choas)

he hits before lysander and can throw out enough high quality attacks to get past his storm shield. He has 4 wounds, a 4++ save and Eternal Warrior to help him live through lysander's hammer attacks. Its a toss up who would win.
AF

scubasteve04 wrote:What special rules does Abbadon have to kill Lysander (not familiar with choas)

Higher WS, better chance to wound, more attacks. He'll average 1.32 wounds to Lysander per round while taking .625 in return.

I don't think anything beats Abbadon on average.

also a 1/6 chance he won't attack and 1/12 chance he'll take a wound ... go daemon weapons

yeah. there's a high luck factor involved here. it's awful when he gets a 1. but nothing can stand before him when he ges a 6. I've watched him carve through 400 points of blood crushers in one game turn.

the Avatar...really?! He'd be dead by the second round.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:the Avatar...really?! He'd be dead by the second round.

Avatar does .740 wounds to Lysander.

Lysander does .625 to the Avatar.

They both have 4 wounds, so Lysander loses.

avatar with fortune maybe.

No, naked and solo Avatar wins the wound race.

Are you sure he only does .625 wounds per round? Assuming hes hitting on 4+ (dont know avatar stats) with mastercraft reroll thats about 2 hits, probably 2 wounds, 1 saved with I am assuming a 4+ invul.

scubasteve04 wrote:Why Mephiston? Its a 3+ invul save vs no invul save. Both are wounding on 2s, and after the first round of combat, meph is striking at init 1.

Mephiston is hitting on 3s, while Lysander is hitting on 4s. Mephiston also has 5 attacks, and 5 wounds. Lysander has only 3 attacks, and 4 wounds.

Mephiston has better than average odds to be re-rolling both hits and wounds every turn, thanks to his Transfixing Gaze. And even when Lysander does pass the test, Mephiston can still activate his Unleash Rage psychic power.

Lysander will almost certainly kill Mephiston in three turns. With re-rolls, Mephiston will manage to hit Lysander approximately 13.33 times over three turns. If we assume that Lysander failed his leadership test against Transfixing Gaze twice, he's forced to take approximately 12 invulnerable saves. Which is precisely enough to kill him.

Well... Mephiston doesn't beat Lysander into the ground, but he does all right for himself.

DarknessEternal wrote:Marneus Calgar in the same codex.
The Avatar of Khaine.
Bloodthirster.
Keeper of Secrets.
Great Unclean One.
Skarbrand.
Kugath.

These aren't very likely... considering Lysander's amazing Invulnerable save, and re-roll to hit every turn. He won't obliterate them immediately, but at best they'll die together.

Out of this list, Marneus Calgar poses the greatest threat.

Nope, forgot master-crafting. So Lysander does .73 wounds per round. Still dies, probably at the same time.

Vect could do it. 6 attacks, hitting on 3's and re-rolling misses. 3's to wound with a 2++ save. He should put 4 wounds on Lysander before he rolls a "1" on his shadowfield.

DarknessEternal wrote:Nope, forgot master-crafting. So Lysander does .73 wounds per round. Still dies, probably at the same time.

2 attacks /2 *5/6 /2 = .416

1 attack *3/4 *5/6 /2 = .3125
.416+.3125 = ~.73

I think many of you think Lysander has 4 attacks.

I'll have to echo the "ancient Force Weapon of Doom" sentiments, one missed save and you can kiss your Eternal Warrior goodbye...

DarknessEternal wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Nope, forgot master-crafting. So Lysander does .73 wounds per round. Still dies, probably at the same time.

2 attacks /2 *5/6 /2 = .416

1 attack *3/4 *5/6 /2 = .3125
.416+.3125 = ~.73

I think many of you think Lysander has 4 attacks.

Even with that math, its still a dead-on draw. With Thunderhammer, those killing blows are gonna be done to each other at the same time.

Abaddon, Kharn, Zogwort, Avatar, Asurmen, Karandras, Jain Zar, Ahriman (for gift and his force weapon).

TRISKELION7 wrote:Kharn, Karandras, Jain Zar, Ahriman (for gift and his force weapon).

...No.

No, absolutely not.

Lysander munches these punks in 1-2 turns, tops. He'd barely break a sweat.

scubasteve04 wrote:
Even with that math, its still a dead-on draw. With Thunderhammer, those killing blows are gonna be done to each other at the same time.

Your question:

Can you think of a list of single model non-apoc MCs/ICs/SCs/walkers that can take him out in 1 on 1 combat? I can think of a few but not many:

You did not state anyone had to live, only that Lysander die.

Also, Vect has a 63% chance of being dead 4 rounds into combat (which is how long he needs to kill Lysander). So, maybe.

DarknessEternal wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:
Even with that math, its still a dead-on draw. With Thunderhammer, those killing blows are gonna be done to each other at the same time.

Your question:

Can you think of a list of single model non-apoc MCs/ICs/SCs/walkers that can take him out in 1 on 1 combat? I can think of a few but not many:

You did not state anyone had to live, only that Lysander die.

Touché

Abaddan any day of the week.

Of course, if you wanted to be practical about it, you'd just go for 30 slugga boyz.

Which is 30-1

You said one on one right...Shas'el with Plasma/Fusion. It's one on one only from 12".

Sorry that wasn't clear, what I meant by being practical was leaving off the arbitrary restrictions.

MekanobSamael wrote:Abaddan any day of the week.

Of course, if you wanted to be practical about it, you'd just go for 30 slugga boyz.

Actually, I'd go for shoota boyz. Much more effective in the long run.

Its quite obvious that 30 boys will swarm Lysander, as will other things. That is not the point of the thread.

We are talking 1 on 1 single combat.

Oscarius wrote:Which is 30-1

You said one on one right...Shas'el with Plasma/Fusion. It's one on one only from 12".

Shas'o with gun drones....


Broodlord if he gets off the stun psychic power.

scubasteve04 wrote:Its quite obvious that 30 boys will swarm Lysander, as will other things. That is not the point of the thread.

We are talking 1 on 1 single combat.

But that's not how you kill Lysander. The entire point of the guy is that he can punch out damn near anything in 1 on 1. You have to swarm the bastard.

Autarch with jetbike and any gun.

Easy... just takes 923857029347593287 turns.

Never gets into combat.

Logan Grimnar?
Always hitting on a 3+
2+ and a 4++ can use an Frost weapon or simply strike last with a power fist.
Has 4 attacks normally 5 on charge and can boost it to 6 with Living Legend.

Sanctjud wrote:Autarch with jetbike and any gun.

Easy... just takes 923857029347593287 turns.

Well played sir

scubasteve04 wrote:His biggest weaknesses are his moblity

Not with Shrike in the army Take Fleet rather than Stubborn for Chapter Tactics and you have a potential 18" charge with the ole' Captain.

is logan eternal warrior?

Logan should be EW.
As for Fleeting (shrike) Lysander....weren't we talking about one on ones..?

purplefood wrote:Logan Grimnar?

Only 3 wounds, he won't win.

Sanctjud wrote:As for Fleeting (shrike) Lysander....weren't we talking about one on ones..?

Star Gods would be the easiest 1 v. 1 I can imagine.

They would go first, with enough attacks to kill him. And he wouldn't get saves.

Haemonculus with a Hex Rifle. Oh you have EW? Too bad "Removed from Play" does not mean "Instant Death"

On a serious note the only 2 reliable sources i can think of would be Swarmlord or a GKGM.

Again... an Eldar character on a jetbike, with a 12" or more ranged weapon vs. a melee only monster stuck at infantry pace will win all the time.
^that is serious.

The Nightbringer looks like it can take down just about anything in close combat, although I'm not sure on Lysanders stats. Please don't punch me if I'm dead wrong.

Ztryder wrote:Haemonculus with a Hex Rifle. Oh you have EW? Too bad "Removed from Play" does not mean "Instant Death"

True, but the Hexrifle still has to hit and wound.

NB can take down Lysander in one round.
He just needs to hit and wound 4 times.
While lysander has to confront at fickle 4++...also NB has a ranged attack to plink at least once.

I believe a Grey Knight Grand Master would take him out pretty easily.

4 attacks (5 on charge), get 2 (2.5) hits, 1.67 (2.08) wounds. As long as he fails one of those 3++ saves, he's dead 92% of the time.

Chuck Norris.

Keeper of Secrets
Greater Daemon of Tzeentch (boon of mutation + jumppack wins)
Herald of Tzeentch (boon of mutation + jetbike)
Daemon Prince + MoT + Boon of Mutation + Wings
Anything with 12" movement and a ranged weapon

Chuck norris doesnt NEED 12" movement because Chuck Norris stands still and tells the world to move!

and roundhouse kick=infinity range anyway

It would be hard to get them one on one but Arjac Rockfist can do a number on Lysander.

5 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3s wounding on 2s rerolls on both too hit and to wound rolls. Not to mention one S10 BS5 shooting attack as well.

It will probably result in mutual death on the second round of combat.

chuck norris is s109

initiative 198748975635245


attacks 123981265918756193248716387456193847


no save

auto hitting

wounding on 1's


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oh and ghazghkull

stompydakka wrote:Chuck Norris.

stompydakka wrote:Chuck norris doesnt NEED 12" movement because Chuck Norris stands still and tells the world to move!

and roundhouse kick=infinity range anyway

stompydakka wrote:chuck norris is s109

initiative 198748975635245


attacks 123981265918756193248716387456193847


no save

auto hitting

wounding on 1's

*sigh*

WoW called, it wants its Barren chat back.

Why is Chuck Norris brought up in every "beat this" thread.
I honestly don't see the point in posting "OMG Chuuck Naarissh could beat any of those anyday with his roundhouse kick of doom (TM)".
It got old like....3-4 years ago.

i know, i know


just wanted a bit of fun.

on a serious note-

ghazz (on WAAAAAGHroids that is)
abaddon
swarmlord

puma713 wrote:
*sigh*

WoW called, it wants its Barren chat back.

Ok, you need to put a warning on posts like that! I'm at work and couldn't hold back the laughter after this.

Rockfist? Are you serious? 2 wounds vs 4?

DarknessEternal wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:What special rules does Abbadon have to kill Lysander (not familiar with choas)

Higher WS, better chance to wound, more attacks. He'll average 1.32 wounds to Lysander per round while taking .625 in return.

I don't think anything beats Abbadon on average.

If Lysander gets the charge, the fight is a little closer. Abbadon getting the assault would certainly give him the edge, but I wouldn't say that he's a sure win against him. I had this discussion with someone on the "Beat This Unit" thread, over in General Discussions.

That being said, like the OP pointed out, sheer volume of attacks is the key to beating anyone with multiple wounds and great armor saves. It's the same tactics people use on Terminators, albeit, they only have a single wound.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:is logan eternal warrior?

Yeah he is... it's suprising how many rules he has.

purplefood wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:is logan eternal warrior?

Yeah he is... it's suprising how many rules he has.

Lysander too, for that matter.

mmmm... I'd have to include logan on that list then. since he's higher initiative it's possible for him to kill lysander, but lysander's extra wound and better invulnerable save do not bode well for the great wolf.


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which is funny, come to think of it.... isnt lysander a captain? and he can ace the master of one of the fightiest chapters in 40k? yeesh. embarrassing.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:mmmm... I'd have to include logan on that list then. since he's higher initiative it's possible for him to kill lysander, but lysander's extra wound and better invulnerable save do not bode well for the great wolf.


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which is funny, come to think of it.... isnt lysander a captain? and he can ace the master of one of the fightiest chapters in 40k? yeesh. embarrassing.

I think LG is better personally but that's just me.
And yeah it would be embarrassing.

scubasteve04 wrote:Rockfist? Are you serious? 2 wounds vs 4?

Yeah. Lysander only has 4 attacks on a turn he doesn't charge. 3s to hit, (one reroll because of MC), 2s to wound, and arjacs 3++ save. technically Arjac wont die on first turn. Second turn everybody dies.

Arjac can also get tougher because he can hang out with a minimum squad of WG or GH and cannot be singled out by Lysander. If there is a wolf standard in the GH squad, then arjac is also rerolling any 1s on his failed 3++ saves.

So yeah, Arjac is almost the universal answer to the "how do I kill it" question for the Space Wolves.

Jayden63 wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:Rockfist? Are you serious? 2 wounds vs 4?

arjacs 3++ save. technically Arjac wont die on first turn.

Unless he fails one of those saves. I'm fairly sure that Arjac isn't EW and has at least Toughness 5 or lower.

puma713 wrote:Unless he fails one of those saves. I'm fairly sure that Arjac isn't EW and has at least Toughness 5 or lower.

You're mistaken. Arjac is, indeed, an Eternal Warrior.

MinMax wrote:

puma713 wrote:Unless he fails one of those saves. I'm fairly sure that Arjac isn't EW and has at least Toughness 5 or lower.

You're mistaken. Arjac is, indeed, an Eternal Warrior.

Really? Wow, color me shocked.

Let's keep the Chuck Norris crap out of a serious forum.

Thanks,

A Moderator.

puma713 wrote:

MinMax wrote:

puma713 wrote:Unless he fails one of those saves. I'm fairly sure that Arjac isn't EW and has at least Toughness 5 or lower.

You're mistaken. Arjac is, indeed, an Eternal Warrior.

Really? Wow, color me shocked.

Its pretty awesome. You assign him the first save defeating (regardless of strength) wound until he fails his first 3++. Then you start piecemealing out the other savable hits to his squad. He really is quite awesome.

I'm willing to bet abbadon might be able to beat him...If he had a unit of LC Nurgle terminators behind him...

Kharne with a unit of 15 berserkers might cause some damage too...


I think you guys are forgetting the shooting phase I think you'd probably want to focus your attention on him, and at least cause a wound or two...

Jayden63 wrote:

scubasteve04 wrote:Rockfist? Are you serious? 2 wounds vs 4?

Yeah. Lysander only has 4 attacks on a turn he doesn't charge.

Lysander only has 3 attacks.

I haven't mathhammered it, to be honest, but I'm going to throw The Sanguinor out there, with Lysander as his chosen target.

yes absolutely. good addition.

For BA Astorath might be worth hammering out. I don't have his rules on me right now, but he has quite a serious CCW and the ability to force a re-roll of passed invulnerable saves.

SmackCakes wrote:For BA Astorath might be worth hammering out. I don't have his rules on me right now, but he has quite a serious CCW and the ability to force a re-roll of passed invulnerable saves.

I don't believe he has Eternal Warrior. One failed 4++ and he's dead.

What about Lukas the Trickster? I mean I know he won't win blow for blow, not even close, but his Death Explosion special rule should take out Lysander right?

Just a thought.

I'm gonna throw Asurman back in there.
Lysander would be knocked down to two attacks per combat due to defend, he's hitting on 4's re-roll one, wounding on two vs a 4++. Asurman is 4 attacks standing, re-roll all misses, hits on 3, wounds on 4. At the very least he would be able to put multiple wounds on lysander, but I think it would depend on who got the charge.

Commander Pask. Can probably do it in 12-15 turns or so in the plasma tank.

now we're just being silly.

Jayden63 wrote:
Arjac can also get tougher because he can hang out with a minimum squad of WG or GH and cannot be singled out by Lysander. If there is a wolf standard in the GH squad, then arjac is also rerolling any 1s on his failed 3++ saves.

Good point, but isn't the point of the thread to see who can best go toe to toe (1 on 1) against Lysander. Sticking Arjac in a group of other people would (for obvious reasons) give him the advantage anyway. The idea is who can go 1 on 1 the best.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I'm willing to bet abbadon might be able to beat him...If he had a unit of LC Nurgle terminators behind him...

Kharne with a unit of 15 berserkers might cause some damage too...


I think you guys are forgetting the shooting phase I think you'd probably want to focus your attention on him, and at least cause a wound or two...

That's not the point of the thread. The thread is to discuss what models can take on Lysander 1 on 1 combat (where he specializes obviously)

Also, he cant really be singled out in shooting, assuming you are running him with a squad (to take advantage of his bolter drill), not running around lone wolf style.

I ran the numbers from memory, so I could be off by quite a bit, but it looks like Sanguinor actually does quite well.

Seaward wrote:I ran the numbers from memory, so I could be off by quite a bit, but it looks like Sanguinor actually does quite well.

I wouldn't see why not. He has 3++ and Eternal warrior, better WS, more attacks, avenging angel (rerolls on hit/wound). I'm supervised I didn't mention him at first. The only thing he has worse then Lysander is hes wounding on 3s and he only has 3 wounds.

rerollings 3s is better than succeeding on a 2. and he's higher initiative. the sanguinor probably has the better chance in that fight despite the 1 less wound. striking first is a big deal. lysander will always be trying to "catch up" to the sanguinor, but the sanguinor will always get to attack at least as many times as lysander does. AF


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on the turn he charges he wounds on a 2 and rerolls that. very strong.

Just an interesting note. A run of the mill Wolf Lord would theoretically have a better chance at killing Lysander than Logan.

A generic wolf lord with a wolf claw, thunder wolf mount, storm shield, saga of the bear (eternal warrior) and wolf tooth necklace (always hitting on 3+) would do quite well. Here you have a model that would dish out 6 strength 5 power weapon attacks on the charge with all to wound rolls rerollable.

I think people are forgetting after the 1st round, assuming Lysander connects, everyone is going at initiative 1. So the "I" factor is a very temporary issue.

yes the T-hammer plays a vital role, but at worst everyones going simo after they already swung once

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I think people are forgetting after the 1st round, assuming Lysander connects, everyone is going at initiative 1. So the "I" factor is a very temporary issue.

Except in the case of the Sanguinor, where he's getting at least 5 and probably 6 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound before Lysander gets to swing.

I would easily put Sanguinor > Lysander

Lelith Hesperax actually gives him a run for the money as well:

Assuming stuck in CC with no one getting the charge:

Lelith gets 8 attacks first, 5.33 hits, 1.77 wounds, .59 unsaved wounds.

Lysander gets 2 attacks, .75 hits, .625 wounds, .208 unsaved.

So, Lelith survives on average 5 rounds, doing 2.95 wounds. All things considered, in 5 rounds, 1 unsaved wound could go either way giving aproximately a 50/50 shot.

Urien Rakarth also gives an interesting fight:
Again, assuming no charge:

Urien - 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, .22 unsaved

Lysander - 3 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2 nulified so .66 hits, .55 wounds.

Every two rounds Urien heals 1 wound, netting .1 wounds per two rounds for Lysander, and .44 for Urien. Takes Urien 9 rounds to kill Lysander, and Lysander 30 rounds to kill Urien.

Urien Rakarth would be instantly killed on the first wound.

The best way to deal with Lysander is hit him with everything in your army. He is one tough old bastard and is not going down without a fight.

TWC Wolf Lord with Wolf Claw/StormShield can do it as well... t5 means no ID from Lysanders str 8 hit, also has 3 wounds, can reroll to hit or to wound and has a 3+ invul...and has 5 attacks with counter-charge.

lysander hits at S10 zonder

Swarmlord, Ghazkull, Marneus Calgar, Sanguinor, Mephiston, Nightbringer, Deciever or Abaddon all have a better than average chance.

Special mention goes out to the Grey Knight Grand Master for being the only un-named character who could whoop Lysander's yellow arse.

Oh...even still give em Saga of the Bear for EW and there you go. Plus on TWC he has a better charge range, and 6 str 5 power weapon reroll wounds. Or just go with Saga of the Bear, TWC, TH/SS and ID him. Maybe Im looking at the wrong SM codex but Lysander looks to be t4 with no EW. Lysander is still pretty beastly tho.

cronus on rhino
he will never see it coming

Zonder wrote:Oh...even still give em Saga of the Bear for EW and there you go. Plus on TWC he has a better charge range, and 6 str 5 power weapon reroll wounds. Or just go with Saga of the Bear, TWC, TH/SS and ID him. Maybe Im looking at the wrong SM codex but Lysander looks to be t4 with no EW. Lysander is still pretty beastly tho.

I believe you're looking at the wrong codex.

Couldn't an Ancient Haemmy with a Mindphase gauntlet stand a pretty good chance of, if not dropping him, locking him down for eternity?

Given a mindphase gauntlet, scissorhand, and a Vexator mask the Haemmey's 155pts or so, with 5 attacks (6 on the charge). For each one that hits Lysander has to make a strength and a leadership check, plus another leadership check before his attacks. Fail any of those, and he can't attack for the turn.

Given one round of bad luck and the Haemmy's smashed flat, but we're talking about averages here.

Shrike325 wrote:Lelith Hesperax actually gives him a run for the money as well:

Assuming stuck in CC with no one getting the charge:

Lelith gets 8 attacks first, 5.33 hits, 1.77 wounds, .59 unsaved wounds.

Lysander gets 2 attacks, .75 hits, .625 wounds, .208 unsaved.

So, Lelith survives on average 5 rounds, doing 2.95 wounds. All things considered, in 5 rounds, 1 unsaved wound could go either way giving aproximately a 50/50 shot.

It's a bit more complicated. Lelith has an 79.2% chance of surviving 1 round. And, her chances of surviving 2 rounds is 62.7%.

By round 5, her chances of surviving is still 31.2%. And, even after 10 rounds, she's still alive 9.7% of the time.

For averaging: She'll be dead on round 3 about half the time. Her expected survival is 4.8 turns, but half the time, she'll be dead long before that.

She gets, on average, 38.5 attacks. She has a 5.2% chance of inflicting 0 wounds before death, 15.8% of inflicting 1, 23.3% of 2, 22.4% of 3, and only a 33.4% of inflicting 4 or more wounds.

So, Lelith only wins 33.4% of the time and Lysander wins 66.6% of the time.


Also, I have made some assumptions to make the math a bit simpler. I don't believe they will have a significant impact on Lelith's odds, but if a real statistician wants to correct me, please go ahead and let me know what I did wrong. Math is fun!

I have just finished painting Captain Lysander and am fielding him in my next Imp Fist game... the thread is filling me with confidence!

However,

Abaddon
Daemon Prince Slaanesh - Warp Time?
Typhus - Manreaper?
Bloodthirster - especially 'old no wings'
Hesperax?
Yarrick... because he'll get back up again and again and again! (maybe)

The next thread should be what ICs/SCs/MCs Lysander CAN kill 1 on 1

The list would be 8 pages long

Fafnir wrote:Grey Knight Grand Master, one unsaved wound and he's gone.

true...
hey- how about incubi?
Broodlord w/ genestealers might do it.
But lysander is my fave SC of all time.

Zonder wrote:TWC Wolf Lord with Wolf Claw/StormShield can do it as well... t5 means no ID from Lysanders str 8 hit, also has 3 wounds, can reroll to hit or to wound and has a 3+ invul...and has 5 attacks with counter-charge.

Actually, his hammer gives him S10...
fail

Miraclefish wrote:Swarmlord, Ghazkull, Marneus Calgar, Sanguinor, Mephiston, Nightbringer, Deciever or Abaddon all have a better than average chance.

Special mention goes out to the Grey Knight Grand Master for being the only un-named character who could whoop Lysander's yellow arse.

swarmlord- probably.
Ghazghkull- prob not. Yarrick beats him in my games.
Calgar- pfft. 4 attacks each, both ID'ing, but lysander has better invul.
Sanguinor- maybe (dunno the rules,but he seems to have the equivalent of 2 LCs in combat- the IF will survive and ID him.
Mephiston- no invulnerable.
Nightbringer- no. I had lyssander (alone) take out a scarab swarm, 20 'crons, 10 destroyers and THEN the nightbringer.
Abbaddon- no. I had abbaddon, kharn, and huron all lose to lysander's TH in one turn (apoc.)

GK's own. end of.

Yarrick is terrible and has no place in this thread.

A fully kitted Archon might be able to take him on, assuming he's already killed another MC or IC. Soul Trap, Djinn Blade, Combat Drugs and Shadowfield (Or might clone field actually be more useful in this case?)

Irdiumstern wrote:Yarrick is terrible and has no place in this thread.

He is not terrible. IMHO, he is the best SC for his points- gets up on a 3+?
Yes please!

Goin off pure memory (I don't know all the codexs), here are all the ICs/SCs/MCs/Walkers that Lysander can own in 1 on 1:

Chapter Master
Librarian
Captain
Chaplain
Master of the Forge
Techmarine
Pedro
Vulkan
Shrike
Khan
Tigurus
Sicurus
Dreadnought
Ironclad Dreadnought
Venerable Dreadnought
Furiso Dreadnought
Dante
Gabriel Seth
Tycho
Reshcarch (sp?)
Lemartes
Mepheston (ok maybe its 50/50)
BA Priest
SW Rune priest
Logan
Lukas
Non saga of the bear Wolf lord
Bjorn the fell handed
Belial
Sammual master of ravenwing
Azeral (sp?) chapter master of Dark angels
Grimaldus
BT Marshal
Emperors champion
Any chapter champion
Helbrecht‎
Kharn the betrayer
Choas Lord
Daemon Prince
Defiler
Choas Dreadnought
Necron Lord
Any Greater Daemon
Fateweaver
Bloodcrusher
Keeper of Secrets
Great unclean one
Wraithlord
war walker
eldar autarch
Farseer
DE archon
Hive Tyrant
Carnifex
Trygon
Mawloc
Tervigon
Commisar Yarrik
Strakken
IG priest
Nedogg
Marbo
Sentinal
Techpriest
Warboss
Deffdread/killa kan
wazdakka
snikrot
wierdboy
big mek

Yes, I am bored

shrike wrote:
Calgar- pfft. 4 attacks each, both ID'ing, but lysander has better invul.

Lysaner has 3 attacks, Calgar has 5 and Titanic Might.

shrike wrote:
Nightbringer- no. I had lyssander (alone) take out a scarab swarm, 20 'crons, 10 destroyers and THEN the nightbringer.
Abbaddon- no. I had abbaddon, kharn, and huron all lose to lysander's TH in one turn (apoc.)

Anecdotes aren't useful in any way. Also, it's not even possible for him to have killed Abaddon, Kharn, and Huron Blackheart in one turn.

Skulltaker on a Chariot--it'll take five turns and he'll probably die in the process but it's a net gain points-wise at 160 vs. 200.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:it's not even possible for him to have killed Abaddon, Kharn, and Huron Blackheart in one turn.

Abaddon has the EW rule--someone got robbed!

*shrugs* I've had abit of fun with my DP using gift of chaos on Lysaner, when somthing has a armour profile like that, the best possible thing to do is bypass it.

Or knock the mini off the table when your opponent isn't looking and blame those damn pesky freak warp-storms.

Nightbringer: 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds, 0.69 unsaved, kills Lysander after 5.76 turns
Lysander: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.625 unsaved, kills Nightbringer after 8 turns.

And, that's ignoring the Nightbringer's 24" S9 Ap2 gun.

So, the Nightbringer should own Lysander pretty easily.

shrike wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:Yarrick is terrible and has no place in this thread.

He is not terrible. IMHO, he is the best SC for his points- gets up on a 3+?
Yes please!

Necron Lords can get back up, and they're actually useful for their points cost. Plus fully loaded for combat it will still come in cheaper than Yarrick. Yarrick hits at str 6 I1, with 3 attacks, which is pretty pathetic. If he manages to stagger back up, any passing infantry squad will kill him.

The only SC worse than him is the space pope.

Maybe some Hexrifles could fix Lysander. Or any of the other DE toys that require characteristic tests.

Grakmar wrote:Nightbringer: 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds, 0.69 unsaved, kills Lysander after 5.76 turns

That's 2.08 wounds per round from the Nightbringer. No saves of any kind are allowed against his attacks.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Nightbringer: 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds, 0.69 unsaved, kills Lysander after 5.76 turns

That's 2.08 wounds per round from the Nightbringer. No saves of any kind are allowed against his attacks.

Holy crap!

You think they would bold that sentence and not bury it in the middle of otherwise standard MC rules.

So, not only will the Nightbringer destroy Lysander, there's a pretty decent chance he'll do it without taking a wound!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe we should change this thread to be about the Nightbringer.

Can anything take that guy out in CC?

Grakmar wrote:
Maybe we should change this thread to be about the Nightbringer.

Can anything take that guy out in CC?

Mephiston
Swarmlord

Basically, things that go first, can wound, and cause instant death.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:*shrugs* I've had abit of fun with my DP using gift of chaos on Lysaner, when somthing has a armour profile like that, the best possible thing to do is bypass it.

Or knock the mini off the table when your opponent isn't looking and blame those damn pesky freak warp-storms.

Yup, one rune priest, 24 or less inches away, one JOTWW, one 5+ later and Lysander is falling down a pretty big hole. Why even risk letting him swing his hammer.

scubasteve04 wrote:Goin off pure memory (I don't know all the codexs), here are all the ICs/SCs/MCs/Walkers that Lysander can own in 1 on 1:

Chapter Master
Librarian
Captain
Chaplain
Master of the Forge
Techmarine
Pedro
Vulkan
Shrike
Khan
Tigurus
Sicurus
Dreadnought
Ironclad Dreadnought
Venerable Dreadnought
Furiso Dreadnought
Dante
Gabriel Seth
Tycho
Reshcarch (sp?)
Lemartes
Mepheston (ok maybe its 50/50)
BA Priest
SW Rune priest
Logan
Lukas
Non saga of the bear Wolf lord
Bjorn the fell handed
Belial
Sammual master of ravenwing
Azeral (sp?) chapter master of Dark angels
Grimaldus
BT Marshal
Emperors champion
Any chapter champion
Helbrecht‎
Kharn the betrayer
Choas Lord
Daemon Prince
Defiler
Choas Dreadnought
Necron Lord
Any Greater Daemon
Fateweaver
Bloodcrusher
Keeper of Secrets
Great unclean one
Wraithlord
war walker
eldar autarch
Farseer
DE archon
Hive Tyrant
Carnifex
Trygon
Mawloc
Tervigon
Commisar Yarrik
Strakken
IG priest
Nedogg
Marbo
Sentinal
Techpriest
Warboss
Deffdread/killa kan
wazdakka
snikrot
wierdboy
big mek

Yes, I am bored

You missed a bit.


Wait! Zogwort! He is the only 1-man-unit that can consistently kill lysander. If the ork player rolls higher than the SM player- poof. Lysander's a squig. Which then gets eaten by zogwort.

The Deciever, he always gets the charge

shrike wrote:
Sanguinor- maybe (dunno the rules,but he seems to have the equivalent of 2 LCs in combat- the IF will survive and ID him.

Hard to ID a guy with Eternal Warrior.

Honestly, I'm not sure there's an IC out there that CAN take Sanguinor 1v1, as long as Sangy chose him for his rerolls.

he may indeed be the king of the hill..... dont know about the c'tan havent looked at that book since it came out....

the sanguinor might be able to take him bc he has an invulnerable save, higher initiative, ablative wounds, can mess with the sanguinor and makes him reroll that mighty 3++. It will take the sanguinor a while to carve through his tyrant guard.

shrike wrote:
Wait! Zogwort! He is the only 1-man-unit that can consistently kill lysander. If the ork player rolls higher than the SM player- poof. Lysander's a squig. Which then gets eaten by zogwort.

Other than the about a dozen guys already listed in this thread (which you clearly haven't read since it included Zogwort).

And about the Sanquinor. He loses to the C'tan since he's got no save and can barely hurt them. C'tan only lose to instant death weapons that go first (or other JotWW tricks).

AbaddonFidelis wrote:he may indeed be the king of the hill..... dont know about the c'tan havent looked at that book since it came out....

the swarmlord might be able to take him bc he has an invulnerable save, higher initiative, ablative wounds, can mess with the sanguinor and makes him reroll that mighty 3++. It will take the sanguinor a while to carve through his tyrant guard.

Fixed.

And yeah. Swarmlord can do it. On his own, and without breaking a sweat.

He's hitting on 3s, re-rolling. Wounding on 2s, and forcing the Sanguinor to re-roll successful Invulnerable saves.

Sanguinor is hitting on 4s, re-rolling. Wounding on 5s, re-rolling. And the Swarmlord gets his 4+ Invulnerable save.

herp derp. thanks for fixing that.

The Sanguinor versus Captain Darnath Lysander - assume the Sanguinor gets his charge off on Lysander:

1st round of melée
The Sanguinor has 6 attacks hitting on 3+ with rerolls - all 6 attacks hit.
The Sanguinor is wounding on 2+ with rerolls - all 6 hits wound, Lysander fails 2 3++ saves.

Lysander swings back with 3 attacks hitting on 4+ -> 2 hits and 2 wounds, both of which the Sanguinor passes his 3++ save.

2nd round of melée
The Sanguinor has 5 attacks, all hit and wound with rerolls. Lysander fails another 3++ save (1 wound left).

The Sanguinor again passes his 2 3++ saves then kills Lysander in the following 3rd round of melée.

The Sanguinor is definitely one of the best character killers out there. There are only a few other characters that can go toe to toe with him and still they'll usually come out on the short end of the stick.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The Sanguinor versus Captain Darnath Lysander - assume the Sanguinor gets his charge off on Lysander:

1st round of melée
The Sanguinor has 6 attacks hitting on 3+ with rerolls - all 6 attacks hit.
The Sanguinor is wounding on 2+ with rerolls - all 6 hits wound, Lysander fails 2 3++ saves.

Lysander swings back with 3 attacks hitting on 4+ -> 2 hits and 2 wounds, both of which the Sanguinor passes his 3++ save.

2nd round of melée
The Sanguinor has 5 attacks, all hit and wound with rerolls. Lysander fails another 3++ save (1 wound left).

The Sanguinor again passes his 2 3++ saves then kills Lysander in the following 3rd round of melée.

The Sanguinor is definitely one of the best character killers out there. There are only a few other characters that can go toe to toe with him and still they'll usually come out on the short end of the stick.

That looks pretty biased for the Sanguanor. You can't just give one character the charge and not the other.

Im sure The sanguanor would win, but not as easily as you made it seem. Also, he would take wounds, he is not gonna pass every save.

scubasteve04 wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The Sanguinor versus Captain Darnath Lysander - assume the Sanguinor gets his charge off on Lysander:

1st round of melée
The Sanguinor has 6 attacks hitting on 3+ with rerolls - all 6 attacks hit.
The Sanguinor is wounding on 2+ with rerolls - all 6 hits wound, Lysander fails 2 3++ saves.

Lysander swings back with 3 attacks hitting on 4+ -> 2 hits and 2 wounds, both of which the Sanguinor passes his 3++ save.

2nd round of melée
The Sanguinor has 5 attacks, all hit and wound with rerolls. Lysander fails another 3++ save (1 wound left).

The Sanguinor again passes his 2 3++ saves then kills Lysander in the following 3rd round of melée.

The Sanguinor is definitely one of the best character killers out there. There are only a few other characters that can go toe to toe with him and still they'll usually come out on the short end of the stick.

That looks pretty biased for the Sanguanor. You can't just give one character the charge and not the other.

Im sure The sanguanor would win, but not as easily as you made it seem. Also, he would take wounds, he is not gonna pass every save.

Yeah, over two rounds you have the Sanguinor passing 4 3++ saves. He should at least have one wound on him. If your going to mathhammer you just have to use raw data with fractions to get a real account of what happens. Even with rerolls its doubtful that the sanquinor would hit all 6 times. Real mathhammer has him hitting 5.3 times. So, just using the conventions of rounding things to the nearest hole number that gives him 5 hits, not 6.

In real game terms assuming the Sanguinor gets the charge is probably fair enough, he does have a significant mobility advantage after all. For the sake of Mathhammer arguments like these though it tends to be best to assumed that either both sides count as charging or neither do (or work out the results for both situations). It all come down to the dice though, I killed Lysander yesterday in a single round with 6 Harliequins (admittedly he was Doomed and the Fusion Pistol got a wound as well).

Anything with less than T6 or without Eternal Warrior needs to be removed from the list though, many people seem to be forgetting that Lysander is S10 and going to squash people flat in one hit (so working out that someone loses .36 wounds per turn is inaccurate as 1 failed save = dead).

Calgar vs Lysander would be good,

C'tan vs most things are meh

Swarmlord would be amusing to see

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The Sanguinor versus Captain Darnath Lysander - assume the Sanguinor gets his charge off on Lysander:

1st round of melée
The Sanguinor has 6 attacks hitting on 3+ with rerolls - all 6 attacks hit.
The Sanguinor is wounding on 2+ with rerolls - all 6 hits wound, Lysander fails 2 3++ saves.

Lysander swings back with 3 attacks hitting on 4+ -> 2 hits and 2 wounds, both of which the Sanguinor passes his 3++ save.

2nd round of melée
The Sanguinor has 5 attacks, all hit and wound with rerolls. Lysander fails another 3++ save (1 wound left).

The Sanguinor again passes his 2 3++ saves then kills Lysander in the following 3rd round of melée.

The Sanguinor is definitely one of the best character killers out there. There are only a few other characters that can go toe to toe with him and still they'll usually come out on the short end of the stick.

So, to fix that:

Sanguinor: 5 attacks, 4.44 hits, 4.32 wounds, 1.44 unsaved

Lysander: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.42 unsaved

Sanguinor still wins in the 3rd round, but it's not quite as drastic as you make it out to be.

Of course, this is assuming Sanguinor chose Lysander as his target (probably the right tactical choice). Just for fun, if he didn't:

Sanguinor: 5 attacks, 3.33 hits, 2.77 wounds, 0.925 unsaved

Lysander: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.42 unsaved

Here, Sanguinor kills Lysander on round 4 or 5. He still should survive.

scubasteve04 wrote:Goin off pure memory (I don't know all the codexs), here are all the ICs/SCs/MCs/Walkers that Lysander can own in 1 on 1:
eldar autarch
Farseer

I don't understand why these two options are there.
We can assume they take gear against him right?
If they take a Jetbike...they will never get into combat with lysander...and can shoot him at 12" away, then slide away in the charging phase to be ~17" away from him.
He can move/run a max of 12"...then the jetbike moves 7" away, shoots some more, then slides another 6" resulting in being 13" away.

...

Or is the original thought experiment assuming they are in combat with one another?<---Cause that does not work very well, as it takes out 'balances' to the whole issue...(aka you want a particular party to 'win' this and are setting them up to...).

Sanctjud wrote:
Or is the original thought experiment assuming they are in combat with one another?<---Cause that does not work very well, as it takes out 'balances' to the whole issue...(aka you want a particular party to 'win' this and are setting them up to...).

Yeah, that's the question. You have 2 models (one being Lysander) locked in CC together, both having been completely untouched before this turn.

It is taking Lysander's weaknesses and ignoring them, and taking away other model's strengths, but them's the breaks.

But even with this advantage, Lysander still looses to tons of models.

There was a thread before where Special Characters duked it out, consisting of the likes of Logan, Abbadon, Ghazzy, Calgar, LYSANDER, Skull Taker w/ Chariot etc. and it'd be pretty consistently Abbadon first, with Ghazzy close behind. Whilst Calgar and Lysander were about 50/50 and Logan and Skull taker lost. A lot.

As such, I'd say the list currently to be:
(close combat for at-least one turn)

- Abbadon
- Ghazzy
- Nightbringer
- Deciever
- Sanguinor
- Swarmlord
- Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf w/ Saga of Bear and other goodies
- Calgar (potentially)
- Vect
- Avatar(?)
- Grey Knight Grand Master
- ??

What is vect's profile again? I'm interested to see...

A Bloodthirster could pretty consistently kill Lysander, too.

Bloodthirster: 5*(2/3)*(5/6)*(1/3)=.925925...

Lysander: 3*(1/2)*(5/6)*(1/2)=.625

Even if Lysander gets the charge, the Bloodthirster's volume of attacks basically negates Lysander's invulnerable save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fateweaver could make it work, too, given that his rerollable 3+ save mans that only 1/9 of wounds hit home. His relatively poor statline also pretty much negate Lysander's advantages. The Boon of Mutation is what kills him, though, not attacks, which basically never hit home:

Fateweaver: 2*(1/2)*(2/3)*(1/3) =.222...

Lysander: 3*(1/2)*(5/6)*(1/9)=.1388...

Whereas the boon of mutation kills Lysander on average in three turns. Lysander's chance of even inflicting a wound before that happens are less than 50%.

MekanobSamael wrote:A Bloodthirster could pretty consistently kill Lysander, too.

Bloodthirster: 5*(2/3)*(5/6)*(1/3)=.925925...

Lysander: 3*(1/2)*(5/6)*(1/2)=.625

Even if Lysander gets the charge, the Bloodthirster's volume of attacks basically negates Lysander's invulnerable save.

Good point. I think the same logic applies to the Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean One, Avatar...

It seems most MC with an Invul save can take him out pretty easily.

After sitting here and rolling dice for a while, it seems Vect just dismantles the guy in two turns, on average. Lysander's 3 attacks just don't cut it in the end, but vects 6 attacks eventually kills the guy. Even with Lysander charging, which will never happen, Vect just laughs his 4 attacks off.

I am not saying one is always better than the other, but after doing 8 combats with them both, Vect has won every single combat. That may not be scientific enough for most, but that works for me.

Grakmar wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:A Bloodthirster could pretty consistently kill Lysander, too.
...
Even if Lysander gets the charge, the Bloodthirster's volume of attacks basically negates Lysander's invulnerable save.

Good point. I think the same logic applies to the Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean One, Avatar...
It seems most MC with an Invul save can take him out pretty easily.

It's almost as if someone said this on the first page.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:A Bloodthirster could pretty consistently kill Lysander, too.
...
Even if Lysander gets the charge, the Bloodthirster's volume of attacks basically negates Lysander's invulnerable save.

Good point. I think the same logic applies to the Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean One, Avatar...
It seems most MC with an Invul save can take him out pretty easily.

It's almost as if someone said this on the first page.

That was 4 pages and 2 days ago! You can't expect me to remember things from the distant past!

ZOGWORT!

I wonder, does a Tervigon count as one character even if it starts by spawning a bunch of (boosted) termagants? And could it come even close to winning even with spawns?

A Tervigon creates 21 Termagants on average. A Tervigon, with the usual upgrades, and 21 Termagants would annihilate Lysander.

Arguably 1 on 1 though.

I think the Tervigon could eat Lysander even if Lysander got the first turn and the tervigon only was allowed to start spawning in her own turn.

Lys turn:
Lysander does 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66w. (say 2.2w on the charge)
Tervigon does 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wounds, 0.33 failed saves.

Terv turn:
Lysander does 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66w
an average of 10.5 newly created termagants, assaulting for 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, 7.875 wounds, ~1.31 failed saves.
Terv does 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wounds, 0.33 failed saves.

Lys turn:
Lysander does 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66w
10.5 no longer Furious Charging termagants do 10.5 attacks, 5.25 hits, 2.62w, 0.43 failed saves.
Terv does 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wounds, 0.33 failed saves.

By now Lysander has lost roughly 2.74 wounds.
Tervigon has lost 5 wounds. (5.5 if Lysander got the charge)

Terv turn: (lets assume the terv rolled a double spawndice last turn)
Lysander does 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.66w Tervigon dead. The death effect does 10.5 s3 hits on the termagants, kills 4.375 of them.
6.125 Termagants does 6.125 attacks, ~3 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.25 failed save.
Termagants loose battle with some margin, no synapse so flees with no real chance of rallying. Lysander has on average 0.01 wounds left.

That's pretty much a draw after four turns of combat. If the tervigon is allowed to spawn it's second turn there will be another 5.25 termagants doing 10.5 Furious assault attacks for 0.66 more wounds. So a minor victory for the tyranids, but not for the Tervigon :-)

Don't forget that the Tervigon also has to take fearless wounds for losing by about 1 wound a turn.

Vect would eat lysander

Vects hits of 3 and wounds on 3
and he has some other nasty goodness too i forget..

i dont have the codex infront of me....
same with Leilith she would eat him to... whats his WS

6 she gets 3 extra attack just by that plus all the other ones too...

I see mention of grey knight gm but not stern. I killed lysander and Cassius with stern in a single game. Stern is S6 with force weapon and has strands of fate for rerolls. I think he could repeat the feat more times than not.

the tyrvigon could run out of little breedy bugs at any time... lysander isnt going to run out of thunder hammer attacks. terminators and ICs stand up to volume of attack units like termagants and ork boyz alot better than I think they're generally given credit for. because they take so few casualties they usually force the other side to take break tests/no retreat wounds, even when point for point the other side is winning. fearless units like orks end up taking 2 or 3 of these casualties every assault phase. once they get down to around 20 guys and dont have the charge anymore they just melt away, because then they are hardly inflicting any casualties at all but the terminators are still going strong. AF

StarGate wrote:Vect would eat lysander

Vects hits of 3 and wounds on 3
and he has some other nasty goodness too i forget..

i dont have the codex infront of me....
same with Leilith she would eat him to... whats his WS

6 she gets 3 extra attack just by that plus all the other ones too...

I don't think Lelith could kill Lysander without some luck on her side.

Vect can do it because he has 7 attacks on the charge, re rolls misses while hitting on 3's, and always wounds on 3's. It is his 2++ save that will keep Vect alive against Lysanders, on average, single wound. Lelith 'only' has a 3++ save, so if Lysander can get a wound or two on her, I think it is lights out for her, especially since she is wounding him on 5's.

The problem with Vect and Leilith are that they don't have EW, which means they get killed as soon as they fail a save.

Vect would take about 4 rounds of combat to kill him, and in the same number of turns Lysander would cause 5 wounds on Vect which isn't quite enough to statisically say Vect would be dead. Basically it comes down to when you fail that 2++ inv, technically its advantage Vect but you are riding your luck with that 2++.

Leilith has the same issue except worse, her Shardnet dropping Lysander to two attacks helps but needing 5's to wound means she will take longer to kill him as well. Assuming she has 8 attacks (4 based + 3 for her WS bonus + 1 CCW I think) she is going to take 7 rounds to do enough wounds to drop Lysander, but even with 2 attacks he is only going to take 4 rounds to statistically get a wound through the 3++. Even if you added Furious Charge (from Pain Tokens) for the first round I don't think things would go well for Leilith.

A pimped up Archon with some form of power weapon (the whip is probably the most helpful in this case as the Huskblade doesn't help), Shadowfield, Drugs and a Soul Trap would probably do better than Leilith actually. With Drugs giving you either re-rolls to wound or +1A you would end up in a similar situation to Vect, hitting on 3's (except without re-rolls) but wounding on 2's (possibly with re-rolls). The only catch being that you have to have killed at least 1 character beforehand for this to work and you do depend on the Drugs roll a bit.

I both cases you could just throw a couple of Shardnet Wyches at him and massively swing things in your favour though, 1A per round isn't going to kill much (and with a Clonefield he kills absolutely nothing).

Destroyer Lord with Warscythe and inv save?

He is T6 and ignores lysanders inv save, has higher initiative and in case he gets killed, he has a decent chance to rise again

He's T5 base, and Lysander's S10. He instantly kills the Necron Lord.

Putting the Lord on a destroyer body puts him to T6 (not modified like a bike, just straight T6 I believe).

Ail-Shan wrote:Putting the Lord on a destroyer body puts him to T6 (not modified like a bike, just straight T6 I believe).

Your right hes T6 base with the uprgrade

Assuming lord gets the charge

lorrd 4 attacks- 2 hits- 1.33 wounds

lysander 3 attacks- 1.5 hits- 1.25 wounds

round 2
lord 3 attacks 1.5 hits- 1 wound

lysander 3 attacks- 1.5 hits- 1.25 wounds

round 3
lord 3 attacks 1.5 hits- 1 wound

lysander 3 attacks- 1.5 hits- 1.25 wounds

the lord going to win this fight, and even if lysander kills him hes got a 50/50 chance of getting back up

Yep, looks like I need to read the Necron codex more. Although the tome is so ancient that it's probably printed on stone slabs.

We were playing around tonight, and put Marneus Calgar, Abaddon, a Swarmlord, and all Dark Angels leaders against him, head-to-head, no charges. Lysander crushed them all except for Abaddon, but he was making lots of saves and eventually dragged Abaddon down.

Two matchups, not face-to-face, however does get around Eternal Warrior: Ezekiel's Mind Worm psychic power and the Deciever's Decieve power. It forces a leadership check against any opponent's model, when/if failed, the model is removed from play, not destroyed or wounded. But good luck getting him to make a failed Leadership test...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:We were playing around tonight, and put Marneus Calgar, Abaddon, a Swarmlord, and all Dark Angels leaders against him, head-to-head, no charges. Lysander crushed them all except for Abaddon, but he was making lots of saves and eventually dragged Abaddon down.

Two matchups, not face-to-face, however does get around Eternal Warrior: Ezekiel's Mind Worm psychic power and the Deciever's Decieve power. It forces a leadership check against any opponent's model, when/if failed, the model is removed from play, not destroyed or wounded. But good luck getting him to make a failed Leadership test...

Which is why in game, nothing is in a vacuum. If one was actually planning on having the decievers power do something, there probably is a unit of perahas around to make stuff LD7.

I thought the deciever simply had the opponent take a ld test or be pinned, and if the unit was fearless they took wounds based on how much they failed by. I never saw a "remove from play" anywhere in the Necron codex.

I Necron lord with destoyer body res orb and phase shifter and a war scythe.

can't die instantly
4+ invul
can get back up
ignores armor an invul saves
strikes first.

I think Khorne's very own SKULLTAKER would have to be deployed...or Fabius Bile, if you rolled the dice well on doing his stats....That or an orbital barrage!

What we all need to bare in mind is that Lysander Tw*tted a Titan in one on One (yes ok he had the WOOT Grenade!) but there is very little in the universe as nails as him. Plus his PTSD after being tortured and probably interfered with by Chaos gives him a well of anger probably deeper than the mariana trench...FACT (probably)

I repeat the Destroyer Lord with Phase Shifter, Res. Orb, and Warscythe. Heck throw a Phylactery on their too so you can come back with full wounds.

The WBB is effectively a FNP roll against a Thunderhammer. And the Warscythe ignores Lysander's saves.

Deadly.

Slaaneshi Chaos Lords with Daemon weapons or Archons with Huskblades. The chaos lord being the more likely of the two.

C'Tan would ignore his invun saves.

Lysander is an eternal warrior, so neither of those work.

Callidus Assassin or Eversor Assassin.

Ive got to say, yes there are ways in which to kill the yellow fellow, but in a normal game, he is just scary awesome. Hes a bit like the SM version of Ghazzy

Skulltaker could take him Surely???


Or at the very least Fateweaver ^^?

+1 Skulltaker...

Calgar actually would win only if he played "dirty" and uses God of War to disengage combats on Lysander's turns to add charge & shooting. Just clobbering away, the slightly better inv.save gives Lysander the edge.

Calgar vs. Lysander

"Ultramarine Turn 1" Locked in combat without charge.
Calgar: 5 attacks, 2,5 hits, 2,431 wounds (with re-rolls), 0,8101 unsaved
Lysander: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1,666 wounds, 0,8333 unsaved

"Imperial Fist Turn 1" Locked in combat without charge.
Calgar: 5 attacks, 2,5 hits, 2,431 wounds (with re-rolls), 0,8101 unsaved (1,6202 total)
Lysander: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1,666 wounds, 0,8333 unsaved (1,6666 total)
Calgar uses "God of War" to disengage and fall back

"Ultramarine Turn 2" Calgar first shoots; then charges
Calgar shooting: 2 shots, 1,666 hits (AP2), 1,62 wounds (with re-rolls), 0,5401 unsaved (2,1603 total)
Calgar: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2,916 wounds (with re-rolls), 0,9722 unsaved (3,1325 total)
Lysander: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1,666 wounds, 0,8333 unsaved (2,4999 total)

"Imperial Fist Turn 2" Locked in combat without charge.
Calgar: 5 attacks, 2,5 hits, 2,431 wounds (with re-rolls), 0,8101 unsaved (3,9426 total)
Lysander: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1,666 wounds, 0,8333 unsaved (3,3333 total)
Calgar uses "God of War" to disengage and fall back

"Ultramarine Turn 3" Calgar first shoots; then charges
Calgar shooting: 2 shots, 1,666 hits (AP2), 1,62 wounds (with re-rolls), 0,5401 unsaved (4,4827 total; Lysander dead on average)
Calgar: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2,916 wounds (with re-rolls), 0,9722 unsaved (5,4549 total)
Lysander: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1,666 wounds, 0,8333 unsaved (4,1663 total; Calgar dead on average)

Could you not just throw some genestealers with a broodlord on him? If he gets of the psycic power lysander is dead meat.

Niiai wrote:Could you not just throw some genestealers with a broodlord on him? If he gets of the psycic power lysander is dead meat.

Yes you could, but that isnt a 1 ON 1 thats a unit on 1. If you do that then it gets much easier to handle the guy

Zweischneid wrote:Calgar actually would win only if he played "dirty"

Your whole analysis is flawed. Lysander has 3 attacks.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:Calgar actually would win only if he played "dirty"

Your whole analysis is flawed. Lysander has 3 attacks.

ahh, alright. Missed that. Well, that puts Calgar clearly on top than

KingCracker wrote:

Niiai wrote:Could you not just throw some genestealers with a broodlord on him? If he gets of the psycic power lysander is dead meat.

Yes you could, but that isnt a 1 ON 1 thats a unit on 1. If you do that then it gets much easier to handle the guy

I know but it just seems like sutch an odd thing to discuss. The man does not have a ranged attack, yet he boosts the bolters in the suqad he is in. Also you need to deliver him into the think of it witch seems hard. Teleport, drop pod or landraider. Altgough he is a powerhouse I kind of get bugged by these threads because IC can always get there ass kicked by wast numbers.

Although if it was down to one unit a lott have been sugested already. I would personaly like to se the trygon prime eat him up though.

Niiai wrote:
I know but it just seems like sutch an odd thing to discuss. The man does not have a ranged attack, yet he boosts the bolters in the suqad he is in. Also you need to deliver him into the think of it witch seems hard. Teleport, drop pod or landraider. Altgough he is a powerhouse I kind of get bugged by these threads because IC can always get there ass kicked by wast numbers.

Sure, but your "vast numbers" of genestealers might in turn get splatted by a Vindicator or two perhaps before getting to Lysander, or some Sternguard, or Devestators or some such blazing away.. or.. or..

Kinda truly makes the discussion pointless. Every unit is embedded in an army, and different elements work better/worse against others: rock-scissor-paper.

1 on 1 discussions a fun way to waste some time because everyone likes a badass hero. Don't take it too seriously.

I still think Ghaz on the charge is the best chance at putting him down. Another good match up would be Grimnar on the charge giving him self both preferred enemy and +1 attack. That would be 7 str 8 (or str 5 hitting at I5) re-roll to hit attacks on Lysander. Sounds like he would have a decent chance of putting him down, especially since both have eternal warrior.

OverwatchCNC wrote:I still think Ghaz on the charge is the best chance at putting him down.

THe erlier discussion is correct, Nightbringer>Ghaz in this case I'm afraid. Ignoring the 3++ save and wounding on 2+ gives him an enormous edge.

OK, hands down: Bjorn kiting him with a plasma cannon


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No! Even more humiliating! A wolf priest with jaws of the world wolf. Chomp.

wolf priest yes.
bjorn....?

Bjorn would be great. Walk 6" away, shoot him with twin linked laser cannon. Rince and repeat.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:wolf priest yes.
bjorn....?

Niiai wrote:OK, hands down: Bjorn kiting him with a plasma cannon


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No! Even more humiliating! A wolf priest with jaws of the world wolf. Chomp.

Pretty sure you guys mean Rune Priest.

OverwatchCNC wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:wolf priest yes.
bjorn....?

Niiai wrote:OK, hands down: Bjorn kiting him with a plasma cannon


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No! Even more humiliating! A wolf priest with jaws of the world wolf. Chomp.

Pretty sure you guys mean Rune Priest.

They do mean Rune Priest.
Though i'm not sure how Bjorn would fail.

A Dreadnought (Bjorn) cannot kite him around because they can only move 6" and fire. Lysander can move 6+ 1D6 until in charge range, so he can catch up.

The dread would have to then move AND run 6+ 1D6, then Lysander can just wait for a bad run roll, and move in for the kill with a 6"+ 6" charge.

Bjørn walk's 6 and shoots, lysander walks 6 and runs 1d6. Bjorn could probably walk into dificult terain etc but lets not go into that.

Bjørn with an INSANE BS skill and a twin linked lascanon will hot and a 1/6 to wound. Then lysander will have a 2/3 chanche to save. Now divide the distance the lascannon can shoot with how fast he runs on average and I think bjorn will winn. Even if he has some wounds left bjorn can be quite mean in close bombat!

OK bjorn has 98,06 chanche of hitting with a twin linked las cannon, he will wound 5 in 6 (so that is 81% so far) and lysander will save 2 in 3 so all in all bjørn will have a 27,23% chanche to get in one wound each round. The Las Canon has a range of 48, and lysander runs an averadge of 3,5. He will charge the last round a full 6, exept bjorn will charge him so that is an averadge of (42/3,5) 12 rounds with shoting, and bjorn would in that time deal 3,26 wounds. Aslo the heavy flamer witch will deal 0.11 wound so he is then up in 3,37 wounds. Bjorn then charges!

Bjorn got 5 attacks. hitting on 4+, damadges on 2+ and saves on 3+. Witch mounts down to 0,1388 per attack, times 5 attacks makes 0,6944 wounds in first round of combat, adding the 3.37 wounds we have from before and that makes 4,06 wounds done over 12 rounds and bjorn takes none back. Although lysander could go first. In witch case we are not quite there yet.

Then lysander hits back 3 attacks, hits on 4+, glanses on 3+, damages on 4+. OK here the math got realy hard because bjorn has the re roll and the ward etc. Somebody else do that, but I would still put my money on bjorn.

Edit: I can try.

Glance = -1 on the damadge chart, so he destroys bjorn on a 6, exept bjorn forces him to reroll so it is 2/36, and then bjorn has the +5 invonerable save. Amounting to 0,037% chanche glansing.
penetrating hit= +1 on damdge chart so he desroys on 4+, bjorn re rolls so it is 18/36 and then the + 5 inoverable save. 0,33 chanche on penetrating.

OK, I do not know how I ad that up to the chanches of hitting and killing via glacing 0,9% and hitting and killing via penetrating 24,75% adding up to a whoping 25,65% change of killing bjorn in the following round of combat. I have NO idea how you calculate back since bjorn now is stunned etc, but it is fear to asume that from this point forward he will eather kill lysander EASALY or he will have been hitt and stunned and has a good chache of getting killed.

rune priest yes. not wolf priest. sorry.

Bjorn isnt going to kill lysander with shooting attacks. Assume he hits all 6 times (he wont) and that he wounds all 6 times too (he wont do that either but w/e), lysander is still going to make 2/3 of his saves. Bjorn isnt going to outrun lysander either - like you said lysander can run, bjorn cant run and shoot. not that bjorn has an infinite space to back peddle in. games are on 4x6 tables he'll run out of room. And lysander will absolutely clobber bjorn in close combat too. come on....

Well, math hammering it out in a normal games max 7 turn duration (since we are now ignoring the original threads 1 on 1 combat premise)

Bjorn has about a 75% chance to wound per turn. Thats 5.25 wounds in a maximum 7 turn game; not near the 12 wounds Lysander must take to be killed.

Moving outside of the regular 7 turn restriction, Bjorn would need 16 turns of shooting to kill Lysander. For simplicitys sake, saying Lysander averages a 3.5" run per turn, and Bjorn is moving 6 inches away each turn, Lysander will close in 3.5" per turn. That is 56" he will close before he dies.


Assuming a pitched battle deployment, and Lysander deploying as far up in the middle as possible and Bjorn deploying in the corner as far away as possbile, you get this distance:



Which I cannot calculate because I forgot Triginometry from high school (help here somebody?). Lysander would only have to move north or west 36" to cut off Bjorn, or if Bjorn stayed stationary in the corner Lysander would have 156" of movement before he lost all 4 wounds.

Once in hand to hand, Lysander will own with Str 10 ap 1 of course.

The Sanguinor might be able to best Lysander in CC. He gets 5 base attacks, +1 for having a two handed mastercrafted weapon. Also with Avenging Angel, it allows him to re-roll To Hits and To Wounds against an enemy HQ. If Lysanders on the field, im definetely using it on him. If he charges, FC bumps his St from 5 to 6. He also has Eternal Warrior meaning he wont die outright fron Instant Death. Also a 3+ Inv might help him brush off some Thammer hits. WS 8 and Init 6 (7 with FC) also means the Sanguinor hits Lysander easier than Lysander hits him. Though Lysanders St 10 is awesome, i must admit. Fearless allows the Sanguinor to remain in battle no matter how wounds are allocated.

lysander doesnt have to chase bjorn, now that he think about it. he can just.... ignore him.

How on earth can he ignore bjorn? You mean start running and after a while he will have run faster then bjorn? I think bjorn runs a full 6 so on a whole he will be abel to follow and snipe at the same time. The bias of this thread is as I was told a 1 on 1 battle.

Niiai wrote:How on earth can he ignore bjorn? You mean start running and after a while he will have run faster then bjorn? I think bjorn runs a full 6 so on a whole he will be abel to follow and snipe at the same time. The bias of this thread is as I was told a 1 on 1 battle.

Abaddon is saying, that in the confines of a normal game, Lysander can ignore Bjorn because Bjorn would take 16 turns of shooting to kill Lysander, way more then the maximum 7 turns allowed.

The math has been done, Bjorn has no chance against Lysander, even while attempting to kite. Lysander will tear Bjorn a new one.

Hmmm...I am also pretty shure a thunder wolf lord with eternal warrior, thunderwolf, shield and ice sword, wolf tail talisman would be abel to do i macke him hit on 3+. True he has 1 wound less, but a litt more attacks. Also, his wolf companions count as wargear, so he has 6 attacks on the charge just there :-D


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In a real combat I realy do think Bjorn ads more to the table then shooting at lysander who probably is in a squad if he knows what is good for him.

Bjorn would be wrecking tanks left and right while lysander was thinking "why don't I have one of them ranged weapons" and when bjorn dies on an objective the SW player suddenly has 2 objectives.

If bjorn and lysander where stuck on a planet, witouth terain, bjorn would winn.

Edit: You know, thinking of it. Bjorn Runes faster then lysander on an averadge so he could kite lysander indefenitly. Probably kill him faster to with an autocanonon instead of a laser.

Lysander + Drop-pod = PROFIT

Bjorn just gained str10 to the face Overall I do think the Sanguinor would outdo Lysander, just. Unless he rolls really bad

Niiai wrote:Hmmm...I am also pretty shure a thunder wolf lord with eternal warrior, thunderwolf, shield and ice sword, wolf tail talisman would be abel to do i macke him hit on 3+. True he has 1 wound less, but a litt more attacks. Also, his wolf companions count as wargear, so he has 6 attacks on the charge just there :-D


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In a real combat I realy do think Bjorn ads more to the table then shooting at lysander who probably is in a squad if he knows what is good for him.

Bjorn would be wrecking tanks left and right while lysander was thinking "why don't I have one of them ranged weapons" and when bjorn dies on an objective the SW player suddenly has 2 objectives.

If bjorn and lysander where stuck on a planet, witouth terain, bjorn would winn.

Lysander can close 56" before dieing while under fire from Bjorn. Lascannon IIRC is 48" range. Once Bjorn is in range, then Lysander is in range to intercept and kill Bjorn before going down. Even ignoring the Constrains of a 4x6 board

The mathhammer does not lie.

Your mathhammer is wrong.

Bjorn kills him in 14 and a half round, not 16. It all depends if Bjorn starts or not. But then again, bjorn can just kite him to death. although, if they did end up meating and bjorn started the game he would winn, no sufering a wound as I proved above.

Niiai wrote:Your mathhammer is wrong.

Bjorn kills him in 14 and a half round, not 16. It all depends if Bjorn starts or not. But then again, bjorn can just kite him to death. although, if they did end up meating and bjorn started the game he would winn, no sufering a wound as I proved above.

Whereas Lysander could kill him in 1 round.
I may be a SW player but Bjorn would be killed pretty damn easily.
Although Lukas the Trickster might be able to take Lysander down.

Nah. Lysander vs bjorn, bjorn wins each time. Walk, Run, Walk, Shoot, repeat

Niiai wrote:Your mathhammer is wrong.

Bjorn kills him in 14 and a half round, not 16. It all depends if Bjorn starts or not. But then again, bjorn can just kite him to death. although, if they did end up meating and bjorn started the game he would winn, no sufering a wound as I proved above.

Even with 14.5 rounds of shooting to kill Lysander, given the confines of a 4x6 board, Lysander will only need 3-4 turns intercept and kill Bjorn by running using my previous diagram.

Although you did make a fine diagram in paint, and I know you like your Lysander a lott Since you started this thread, Bjorn could outrun you on thet diagram as long as he moves faster, witch he does. He would not be standing in the corner but as you aproaches he will move away. Probably ron to the other table edge and shoot once or twice and run again.

and when they get into close combat Lysander only has an averedge chanche of 66% to get a singel roll on the damadge chart and then a 25,65% to kill Bjorn each round of combat. I have not calculated if you destroy his weaponds and imobelice him. Bjorn also pack 69% of a wound in the first round of combat and then 55,52 wounds each round of combat (with 4 attacks, no stuns, combat arm intact.)

I don't understand your logic. Assuming my diagram, and Bjorn goes for the other table edge, Lysander is still going to cut him off.

Assuming moving 6" and shooting while going for the opposite table edge, Lysander will intercept in 3.7 turns (assuming 6" +1d6 run, run averaging 3.5"). I don't know how to make it any clearer.

Once in close combat, Dreadnoughts suck in close combat against high str models (str 10 ap 1 is no exception). Stuns, weapon destroys, immobilizes cripples the dread early, and a single pen has a 50% chance to destroy (AP 1).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:Calgar actually would win only if he played "dirty"

Your whole analysis is flawed. Lysander has 3 attacks.

And, you can only use God of War if Calgar looses combat. Anytime its a draw, or Calgar wins the combat, there is no moral check to make, so there is no chance of falling back. As such no shooting or recharge in attack bonus.

Niiai wrote:How on earth can he ignore bjorn? You mean start running and after a while he will have run faster then bjorn? I think bjorn runs a full 6 so on a whole he will be abel to follow and snipe at the same time. The bias of this thread is as I was told a 1 on 1 battle.

bjorn doesnt have time to shoot lysander to death. if bjorn tries to fight him in close combat lysander will almost certainly win. I dont think 6 turns of shooting followed up by a desperate assault is exactly what OP had in mind when he asked for opinions on killing lysander 1 on 1


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Niiai wrote:Hmmm...I am also pretty shure a thunder wolf lord with eternal warrior, thunderwolf, shield and ice sword, wolf tail talisman would be abel to do i macke him hit on 3+. True he has 1 wound less, but a litt more attacks. Also, his wolf companions count as wargear, so he has 6 attacks on the charge just there :-D

that certainly seems possible....


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Niiai wrote:Nah. Lysander vs bjorn, bjorn wins each time. Walk, Run, Walk, Shoot, repeat

well it was a cute idea. ok drop the 16 down to 14.5 I havent looked at the math but it doesnt really matter. drop it down to 10. the game doesnt last that long so its not going to work.


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scubasteve04 wrote:



Which I cannot calculate because I forgot Triginometry from high school (help here somebody?). Lysander would only have to move north or west 36" to cut off Bjorn, or if Bjorn stayed stationary in the corner Lysander would have 156" of movement before he lost all 4 wounds.

a2 + b2 = c2 right? the distance is just over 4 feet.

It's actually not that simple, as Bjorn won't necessarily move in the exact same direction every turn. Thus Lysander can't draw a straight vector to a theoretical end point exactly X movement phases away from Bjorn's starting point.

The path followed by Lysander would have to be more of a hyperbola, else Bjorn would simply 'juke him out'.

For example, first turn Lysander will want to move directly towards Bjorn. This because he doesn't know if Bjorn will walk left or right. Bjorn on his turn can go 6" in either direction, doesn't matter. On his second turn, however, Lysander can't do a 45 degree angle in the direction that Bjorne moved or B can just go right back the other way.

All in all, this probably buys Bjorne about 1 more turn of grace.

sourclams, only 1 turn? You have to remember that bjorn moves faster then lysander.

Anyway, any unit with a gun with some range and a jump pack can do this. A singel swooping hawk. Not to mention the phoenix lord Baharroth.

Or even a Tyranid hive tyrant with wings and a big gun. Or a Harpy! The Kiting possabilaties are endles.

SanguinaryGuard wrote:The Sanguinor might be able to best Lysander in CC. He gets 5 base attacks, +1 for having a two handed mastercrafted weapon. Also with Avenging Angel, it allows him to re-roll To Hits and To Wounds against an enemy HQ. If Lysanders on the field, im definetely using it on him. If he charges, FC bumps his St from 5 to 6. He also has Eternal Warrior meaning he wont die outright fron Instant Death. Also a 3+ Inv might help him brush off some Thammer hits. WS 8 and Init 6 (7 with FC) also means the Sanguinor hits Lysander easier than Lysander hits him. Though Lysanders St 10 is awesome, i must admit. Fearless allows the Sanguinor to remain in battle no matter how wounds are allocated.

I7 on the charge... I1 once Lysanders cracked his head with the his TH!

Niiai wrote:sourclams, only 1 turn? You have to remember that bjorn moves faster then lysander.

6" > 6+1d6"?

He is assuming you are as absolutely as far away from him as possible. Nothing with a 1 shot gun should kill Lysander, even if it hits 7 times.

I just dump him in a redeemer and seperate him from the terminator squad after I roll over the first obstacle.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Nothing with a 1 shot gun should kill Lysander, even if it hits 7 times.

Wraithguard with a wraithcannon. Mekboy with Shokk Attack Gun.

Touche!

In all fairness if the wraithguard doesn't get the 6 then he's splat!

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Touche!

In all fairness if the wraithguard doesn't get the 6 then he's splat!

He's made of Wraithbone! He doesn't splat, he crumbles!

(Man, people complain about the Bloody Blood Angels of Blood, but I just talked about a Wraithguard made of Wraithbone with a Wraithcannon. )

Kiting is possible with something that moves more then 6" and shoots. Dreadnoughts can't kite.

Something like a Crisis suit can.

I dunno the rules for Bjorn, but I do know the rules for a thunderhammer, and Im sorry, but pitting ANY type of vehicle against a thunderhammer (ignoring the badassidy that is Lysander) is a bad idea. They are pretty much the best anti vehicle CC weapons there are

All penetrating and glacing hits also count as a crew stunned

Yea thats what Im saying. I dont know if Bjorn can ignore those results or not, but against any other vehicle type, they usually just murder

Has anyone pointed out Old One Eye?

No, but that's intriguing. He'll take ~2 wounds a turn, heal one off... probably die by round 3? Can't get through Lysander's invul save though. Don't think he could pull it off.

Now that it's been brought up, Crisis Commander with Plas/Missile/TA would win with JSJ and 12" move. But that's kind of unfair.

Old One Eye hits Lysander on 4+ (re-rolling 1s), wounds on 2+, fails saves on 2-. On the charge it'd get A4+1+D3 and hit first. For every successful hit on the initial attacks, Old One Eye gets another attack. Old One Eye can potentially have 16 attacks on the charge.

On the charge, we'd see:

[Original # Attacks + Bonus # Attacks] * [To hit + Re-rolls] * [To Wound] * [To Fail Save]

Original # Attacks = Attacks (4) + Charge bonus (1) + Crushing Claw bonus (1)(0.33)+(2)(0.33)+(3)(0.33)

=6.95

Bonus # Attacks = [Original # Attacks] * (0.5) + [Original # Attacks] * (0.5)(0.17)

=4.07

Total: 11.02 attacks on average

6.44 hits
5.34 wounds
1.77 unsaved wounds

By contrast Lysander has 3 attacks, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound:

1.66 unsaved wounds, Regenerate 0.55 so 1.11 at the end of the first turn.

Old One Eye wins over two or three turns, and possibly one.

I dont mean to be "that guy" but ive heard talk of Lysander having 12 wounds. Can anybody fill me in on this because im quite confused

Lysander has 4 wounds and a 3+ invul save. So to really kill him, you have to, on average, deal 12 wounds that ignore armor.

He does not have 12 actual wounds.

Likewise you'd need to cause, on average, 24 wounds that don't ignore armour, or about 7-8 wounds that ignore armour in combination with a Null Zone.

Edit: Oops, that's 7-8 wounds that ignore armour, not that 'don't ignore armour'. I stand corrected.

Ah, i see. Thank you for informing me.

Just fielded Lysander against Eldar...

Charged the Scorpion Pheonix Lord Karandras...

Both I1, he used the claw/power fist weapon... took five hits, failed all my invulnerable saves...

go figure!

Inquisitor Lord, Eviscerator

3 Acolytes with Mancatchers

2 Chirugeons


I figured this still counts as one on one because you are forced to take a retinue. This squad wins every single time.