So it appears that some sad muppet felt like robbing some geniune young talent of the respect it deserves. What follows is a post by the artist who painted the Gold YB mini in this years GDUK -

"This morning I recieved this message from somebody on cool mini -

'Just noticed this mini won a Golden Demon in the UK youngbloods catagory: http://demonwinner.free.fr/uk/2010/golden_demon_winner.php?categorie=12....'

This is a miniature I painted a couple years back and sold on ebay http://www.coolminiornot.com/182917"

*Gasp!*

This is a c&p from an email that the original artist recieved from GW hq recently. He has posted it publically himself and so I presume he doesn't the news being shared elsewhere here amoung the Dakka community.


"Hi,

David Heathfield in the 'Eavy Metal team forwarded me your contact details so that I could let you know what we're doing about your Tau Ethereal that someone else entered into – and won Gold with – the Young Bloods category at this year's UK Golden Demon competition. We will shortly be removing the images of the model and the name of the winner from the 2010 UK Golden Demon winners page of the Games Workshop website, as it's now apparent that it wasn't Sean Graham who painted it, it was you.

I understand from the rules to the competition that anyone knowingly entering someone else's work as their own is immediately disqualified and forbidden from entering future Golden Demon painting competitions, so if Sean Graham ever had a bright future ahead of him as a miniatures painter we won't hear about it at the Golden Demons.

Thank you for letting us know about your Ethereal; I hope you don't see any more of your models entered into Golden Demon under other people's names in the future!"


Just a friendly reminder for those that choose to tarnish our hobby with this disgusting behaviour. The world is smaller than you think, and you WILL be found out.

The inquisition knows all...

Let the the burning, and cries of "Heretic!" begin!

They give the winners of these things trophies right? They going to take it back from him?

Don't know if they can/will actually, but the award and title has (presumably) already been removed by now.

The cheating bugger now has a reminder of his underhand exploits on his shelf though, which hopefully will serve as good character building for him should he choose to accept the consequences of his actions.

Not sure about how/if they will elevate the other entries into bronze either, but I will let you know if I hear anything.

Makes you wonder if the kid was put up to it by someone craving a Golden Daemon...Those things ain't easy to come by, and Youngbloods, entered fraudulentlly arguably offers the easier route to one.

Theres a Dakkaite who posts here that states he won the Bronze at said event.

Congrats kid, looks like you have just won silver!

The kid should have his name posted to all GW in the area and should be band from all painting events. Even small in store things.

so who will now be bronze winner? all of them were very good

Terribly disappointing.

Just hope they can correctly allocate the trophies now. Personally, I think a letter requesting this "Sean Graham" to return the Gold trophy would not be out of order.

Padre^.

So OP

How did you feel when you first found out someone entered your model in a GD and called it theirs?

Eh? It wasn't my work.

Oh, so you were quoting other people. Now I get it. I more or less skimmed the post.

"Voting Guide: Pretend you're a Golden Demon judge. Painting skill, imagination and style are key!"

This is particularly hilarious in retrospect . . .

Bang out of order.....

This saddens me when I read or hear about stuff like this. I competed twice before I even took my bronze, and believe me no award felt sweater as when I "EARNED" mine as all of the hard work paid off. Hopefully I will continue to improve as I am always striving at it because it means something to earn titles and awards, not to take credit for somone elses hard work.

Disgusting behaviour.

It will take a lot for people to trust that person now.

I want a big picture of that cheating little git in White Dwarf along with a damning article about cheating.

(I might even buy it for that...)

Get it on the website as well - Burn the heretic lmfao

The only problem with all that is that he is under 18, which presents a possible problem with splashing his face all over the place calling him a filthy cheater.

Although I agree that it would be a good thing to do, just as I believe that all scallywags (young and old) should be put into public stocks so that people can pelt them with rotten fruit.

I wonder what the parents would have to say about this..



Unless of course, they are involved..

I can kind of understand this happening in the adult categories, but to cheat against children? That's low.

It was children against children, even playing field

It wouldn't matter who it was against, the fact that they entered someone elses work in as their own is totally against the rules, as welll as being morally wrong.

I hope he is somehow 'shamed and then he might realise what he has done to make sure that he stops this stupid behaviour before it b ecomes habit.

Thats really unfortunate.

The Decapitator wrote:It wouldn't matter who it was against,

Yeah cheating is wrong, but I was pointing out, as far as we know, it was his parent entering by proxie.

So he bought a well painted mini on Ebay and entered it. What a dolt.

Yup thats an awesome set of morals that kid has. Even worse if it was a parent that just used his name. I still personally think alot of young blood entires are painted by parents. Not saying kids cant paint, because I have seen some amazing work done by youngins, just a personal opinion is all

Orki wrote:

Let the the burning, and cries of "Heretic!" begin!

Sure.
BURN THE HERETIC.

GW`s mail is pretty straightforward. No BS-ing around. I like that.

...and he would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:...and he would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

But he was a kid himself :(

SilverMK2 wrote:The only problem with all that is that he is under 18, which presents a possible problem with splashing his face all over the place calling him a filthy cheater.

Although I agree that it would be a good thing to do, just as I believe that all scallywags (young and old) should be put into public stocks so that people can pelt them with rotten fruit.

Old enough to cheat, old enough to be beaten!

Wow its sad when people want to cheat.

Maybe he should have disguised the ethereal in some way .. a moustache, perhaps, or a hat at a jaunty angle?

Me and my friend knew we had seen that mini before! we had a feeling something was wrong

Necroagogo wrote:Maybe he should have disguised the ethereal in some way .. a moustache, perhaps, or a hat at a jaunty angle?

That would have been cunning- a pair of glasses would have made it look like someone else entirely!

SilverMK2 wrote:The only problem with all that is that he is under 18, which presents a possible problem with splashing his face all over the place calling him a filthy cheater.

Are you implying that minors should get away with such things, cus that sounds well... stupid.

Torches and pitchforks at LOW LOW prices!!!
Call now!
While supplies last.

Bloodwin wrote:I can kind of understand this happening in the adult categories, but to cheat against children? That's low.

First time for everything so you can even say he is doing a good job turning into an adult?

Theres only one legal way to teach this little bleeder a lesson - posts picture of "his" entry along with his name at his school/town and expose him as a warhammer hobbyist.

The social stigma alone should keep him on the straight and narrow and earn him a few wedgies/kickings from his peer group.

so stupid to cheat I wonder if he cheats in other things like LIFE!!!!!

But GW should ask back for the award. And I bet that is one happy silver guy! Way to go you got a Gold now!!

MunkeyKungFu wrote:Old enough to cheat, old enough to be beaten!

...and stupid enough to think that the internet wouldn't catch you cheating.

Very sad. I really can't imagine the point in having such a statue if you don't have it for something you achieved. Wouldn't it just make you feel so hollow inside to even look at it?

HoverBoy wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:The only problem with all that is that he is under 18, which presents a possible problem with splashing his face all over the place calling him a filthy cheater.

Are you implying that minors should get away with such things, cus that sounds well... stupid.

Torches and pitchforks at LOW LOW prices!!!
Call now!
While supplies last.

I think he is just trying to say that there may be legal issues with doing such a thing, not that doing it is unwarranted. Sometimes the laws don't follow what we think is right.

dispicable. I think this story (not pics of the kid, though, that's illegal) should be put in white dwarf, and the rightful 2nd and 3rd places notched up, and also the judges should judge a 3rd place.

HoverBoy wrote:
Are you implying that minors should get away with such things, cus that sounds well... stupid.

No, the issue is using a photo without his permission breaks several laws in the UK concerning minors. We have this issue when kids are convicted of crimes by the courts. They can't be named or pictured.

Quick, someone forward this to the Sun, give it a day or two and his face will be all over the tabloids in the latest UK scandal.

BrookM wrote:Quick, someone forward this to the Sun, give it a day or two and his face will be all over the tabloids in the latest UK scandal.

Doubdfull, altho his face making contact with some caffeteria food may be warranted for this.

I think they should send someone to the address to attempt to pick the trophy up, and if they can't then let the local papers pick up the story so they are shamed into returning it to the rightful owner (2nd place.)

very sad, is a golden demon trophy really worth it? I mean, really, people will say, neat trophy, whats it from?

Oh that, I made my kid enter an ebay miniature into a national competition so I could cheat a bunch of kids out of it.

LOL

What should happen to the guy who cheated at Young Bloods?

1. Spank his bottom until it is red raw.
2. Burn his army.
3. Chop off his hands.
4. Out him at school as a 40K player
5. Exile to the Kuriles
6. Ban him from every shop, tournament and convention evar
7.Leave the sad feth alone, the topic is over.

8. Take away trophy and give to second place, then 7

oh if we are being cruel:

9. Allow him to paint nothing but the soon to be released Stormraven.

Too much?

notprop wrote:oh if we are being cruel:

9. Allow him to paint nothing but the soon to be released Stormraven.

Too much?

We have laws about cruel and unusual punishment. That crossed the line.

Happygrunt wrote:

notprop wrote:oh if we are being cruel:

9. Allow him to paint nothing but the soon to be released Stormraven.

Too much?

We have laws about cruel and unusual punishment. That crossed the line.

Good effort......

If you want to really be cruel you'd make him build a Berserker heavy army using the 3.5 Chaos Space Marine codex so he can cry as his army hops out of their rhinos and chases land speeders they can never conceivably catch.

Locate his residency and sell him on the BLACK MARKET for cheating in a golden Demon competition. Its the only way to be sure






blood hungering hobbyists :L

MunkeyKungFu wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:The only problem with all that is that he is under 18, which presents a possible problem with splashing his face all over the place calling him a filthy cheater.

Although I agree that it would be a good thing to do, just as I believe that all scallywags (young and old) should be put into public stocks so that people can pelt them with rotten fruit.

Old enough to cheat, old enough to be beaten!

that funny and true

Capt_Bowman wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:
Are you implying that minors should get away with such things, cus that sounds well... stupid.

No, the issue is using a photo without his permission breaks several laws in the UK concerning minors. We have this issue when kids are convicted of crimes by the courts. They can't be named or pictured.

Isn't a part of entering the contest a release for your miniatures' pic and as well as the "painter" in question. If so then GW owns the rights to the cheater's photos and can use it however they want. I don't know since I've not ever signed up for the GD.

Empchild, do you remember signing a release or waiver when you won Bronze?

Through him into a pit full of Rabie-infected Rotweilrs and pitbulls with no protection and smothered in sasuage grease...

Instead of screaming for blood here, what we should be screaming for is GW coming up with solutions on how to prevent this sort of thing in the future.

spireland wrote:Instead of screaming for blood here, what we should be screaming for is GW coming up with solutions on how to prevent this sort of thing in the future.

Screem for GW's Blood

While looking around the Internets for the Cheater, I came across this on the GW site.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?pageMode=multi&categoryId=&pIndex=2&aId=13000009a&start=3

That big white space feels good. I hope he knows we know he cheated.

Oh yeah, I love the smell of righteous hatred in the morning. Almost as good as napalm...

Believe it or not this has happened several times in the U.S in recent years. It's sad but usually what they do is bump up peoples awards, and they generally know who would have been third so on average that person is contacted and given the award at a later date. As stated it really sucks that people go so far to do this, but I guess of consequence... the youngbloods generally have a smaller trophey.

Now i know how to get a golden demon! lol jk really that's lame
I hope my kid doesn't take too much after me or he'll never win lol!
Lord knows he / she will inevitably be drawn towards warhammer since it's all over the place in my house
Someone put up a poster of this kid outside your GW
"Wanted For Heresy"

im thinking that this is a richkid and the parents think it is acceptable to buy a win as long as you can take the credit-people like this govern the country and hold all the top jobs - "why should they have to work hard when they can ride on the backs of others??"

This sort of thing isnt uncommon. People buy whole armies pre-painted these days and enter in whatever they can.

Then you have other issues like GD judges choosing their friends as winners. The issue list with these comps go's on and on.

Haha I am selling the models I won with, and a person asked me today if the trophey comes with it. I politely responded no, and was told that it would hurt the resale value of them. It amazes me how much people will try and do to get a demon. Just do what I did, take a ton of classes from demon winner, spend years practicing, and several thousand dollars traveling to multiple games days. That way when you actually win one it feel super sweet.

His Master's Voice wrote:Oh yeah, I love the smell of righteous hatred in the morning. Almost as good as napalm...

Isn't that what the internet is for? Getting pissed off?




Damn tho, this thread makes me sorta hugry for a painting contest...maybe the hobby shop one

narceron wrote:very sad, is a golden demon trophy really worth it? I mean, really, people will say, neat trophy, whats it from?

Oh that, I made my kid enter an ebay miniature into a national competition so I could cheat a bunch of kids out of it.

LOL

The sad thing is some people might think it's funny to feth with the nerds like that and give them props for it anyway.

So I imagine people will be lol'ing over it either way.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?pageMode=multi&categoryId=&pIndex=2&aId=13000009a&start=3

See why don't they, rather than just removing the gold entry, they move the second and third placed entries up. And then exchange the proper trophies with them?

I believe the owner of the third place entry is registered on dakkadakka (peatread). If I were him I would be on to that and getting the prize I deserved.

Not to mention someone with a finalist badge deserves the bronze. But to be fair that one might be a bit too late to put right.

i am not happy about that as i entered that catergory !!

This happened to a friend here last year. I wonder how many of the entries are actually painted by the people who enter them...

http://senjistudios.com/?p=1730

yep he's down from the gw website just a blank spot for gold

The real question is- how did this young person have enough money to buy a gold Golden-Daemon worthy paint job?

Either he put a lot of savings into it, or his parents bought it for him... makes me also wonder if they are involved or not.

Edit:

OoieGoie wrote:This sort of thing isnt uncommon. People buy whole armies pre-painted these days and enter in whatever they can.

Unfortunately, there's quite a stigma about this... even though I always tell my opponent, the TO, everybody that I didn't paint my army, I get a lot of negative comments about it at tournaments...

Which is why I'm selling it in turn and painting my own army, which I just finished assembling and priming, now that I have more time and space to hobby...

Bring forth the rock of shame!!!!!!

This is why I am also against using painting scores at tournaments as part of the overall winner...especially certain events that add 30-50% for painting/conversion. Too many times you see someone go 3-2 and win Best overall with an army you saw on ebay (or someones painting website) just a few months prior.
Mandate a 3 color and based table-top ready on all models to enter the tourny, but then hold a seperate sideshow with separate trophies/prizes based soley on modeling and painting.

As long as the community shames those who do pull this crap then people will surely shy away from doing this. After all these prizes are really only revered within the war gaming community.

Getting rid of best in show awards etc. Is only letting these muppets win.

RiTides wrote:The real question is- how did this young person have enough money to buy a gold Golden-Daemon worthy paint job?

Either he put a lot of savings into it, or his parents bought it for him... makes me also wonder if they are involved or not.

You're not suggesting a conspiracy to win a Games Workshop award, right?

I can't really see the parents caring enough about a Golden Daemon to help their son cheat. I just can't see it. If there were a cash prize or something, I could see it happening then.

jprp wrote:im thinking that this is a richkid and the parents think it is acceptable to buy a win as long as you can take the credit-people like this govern the country and hold all the top jobs - "why should they have to work hard when they can ride on the backs of others??"

Well, unless you're the kid in question, I don't think it's appropriate for you to cast aspersions on his parents.
I mean, it's one thing to "wonder" if his parents had something to do with it. To outright SAY they did, though?
Bad form.


Eric

I get a lot of negative comments about it at tournaments...

Why? It's obvious you aren't trying to dupe people and win awards for it so why would they have any reason to keep talking crap?

Sidstyler wrote:Why? It's obvious you aren't trying to dupe people and win awards for it so why would they have any reason to keep talking crap?

Because there is a bit of elitist attitude out there regarding player pained/converted armies. I have commissioned paint jobs before on miniatures I knew I wouldn't have time to paint. I have had multiple players say "Nice model.", I always let them know it's not my work, then they say "Oh.." and look down their nones at me and walk away spouting of about how they ALWAYS paint their own stuff.

That's kind of lulzy. I wonder how he kept in such good condition for all those years? Anyway, I'm surprised that model even won gold. It's not that good...

For a youngblood, it's freaking fantastic.
I mean, it's no Shrike that might be found at a FLGS or something like that... but it's nice. : )


Eric

MunkeyKungFu wrote:

Old enough to cheat, old enough to be beaten!

How about "Old enough for cheatin' old enough for beatin!" That is the kind of thing a mob can chant. Preferably with torches and pitchforks.

MagickalMemories wrote:For a youngblood, it's freaking fantastic.
I mean, it's no Shrike that might be found at a FLGS or something like that... but it's nice. : )


Eric

We all saw what you did there.

Didn't this happen a couple years back with a Lucius the Eternal model? All the kid did was re-base an ebay model.

cuda1179 wrote:Didn't this happen a couple years back with a Lucius the Eternal model? All the kid did was re-base an ebay model.

Nope I know which one your talking about. Though the kid who painted it was a twit, he used to play at the natick mall here in Mass. As per the painted armies at tournies, For the ones I run if you own up to your army being painted by somone else I still give a minimum of 6 out of 20 points. I do this as on my checklist the army is painted,and with a 3 coat standard and basing. So that and we do two judges makes 6 points. If I find out that a winner lied our cheated well then I just ban them from any future events, and I contact my friends who run events and say "hey watch out for this person". I have yet to have that happen though on the east coast as I find most people are pretty honest about that, and they tend to own up more to their own work out of pride. Now I own pieces from other demon winners as buy them(at a friend discount) and study them. I also just do it as hey cool model and want it in the cabinet for a display. Would I ever enter them in a comp "HELL NO" I have proven I am good enough on my own. I harbor no ill will against people who buy armies as hey we have to work, or do family stuff and people can't always take the time out away from their duties to paint. I respect them more then the people who sit at their grandparents house and not look for a job, and paint all day.

P.S Open for commissions_ I couln't resit the plug I'm sorry.

@Destrado
Liked that, did ya? : )


@Emp & everyone else
I don't want to make this a "gaming elitism" thread, but I do have to say -with all due respect- that your post kind of bothered me, Emp.

I mean, first, we have people who judge us harshly if we're the kind of person who just wants to play the game and/or doesn't have (or want to make) the time to paint AND play. Now, if we buy painted miniatures and don't tell you about it, we get banned from tournaments?
That doesn't really strike me as fair.

I mean, okay. If you only want to give "best painted" to someone who painted the army himself, then I get it. I have very few qualms with that. But, to give him minimum points in scoring, as if he only gave them 3 colors? That strikes me as a slap in the face.
Keep in mind, I'm presuming that, like most/many tourneys, you count painting score towards who the overall winner is.

IMO, don't judge the guy harshly for having painted minis. Judge the minis based solely on how nice they look, but eliminate him from the "Best Painted" running. This way, he gets full points towards his score, but doesn't take the award away from someone who bought well painted models and wants to win the tourney.
Otherwise, you're just telling the guy, "If you don't put the same values as I do on all of the aspects of gaming, then you might as well stay home, if you're concerned about winning!"
That's how it strikes me, anyway.

I've been thinking about the kid in question.
He's young. He's stupid.
Young and stupid are practically synonymous, though. They go together like peanut butter & jelly, Fred & Ginger, Duct Tape & Nipple Clamps.
(TMI? LOL)
I don't think he should be banned for life. I think he should be banned for youth.
I think he should no longer be allowed to enter any GW sponsored competition OR EVENT until after he's turned 18. After that, give the kid another shot.

We all make stupid mistakes when we're young.
Some of us steal models.
Some of us steal cars.
Crap. I almost caved in a guy's face with a baseball bat once!

We learn. We change.
Who we become as adults is influenced by our youth.
It's not a good lesson to learn at his age that the world is a vindictive bitch who will never give you a second chance.

Just my opinion, FWIW.

Eric

@Magik: believe it or not I am one of the nicest organizers as most of them give you a flat zero. A person with twoor three painted models would get a higher score then a person who bought their army in most tournies. The problem is in a lot of tournies paint scores DO count towards the final, so how is it really fair to give somone a great paint score when they didn't do the work themselves. Believe it or not I caught flak for even giving any score at all. So my method is extremely generous, and if you or anyone else doesn't like that well.. their are plenty of tournies out there to fit your needs, and you don't have to come to mine.

As per the child, the Ban for life is a staple in GW policy, and young and stupid may go together but the kid was old enough to know the difference between right and wrong. The rules need to be maintained otherwise that kind of behavoir would become rampant. I say good, he's banned for life from the Golden Demon and other GW run events. Maybe he learned a valuble lesson as he took away from others who were honest and put their hard work into their models.

MagickalMemories wrote:
I mean, first, we have people who judge us harshly if we're the kind of person who just wants to play the game and/or doesn't have (or want to make) the time to paint AND play. Now, if we buy painted miniatures and don't tell you about it, we get banned from tournaments?
That doesn't really strike me as fair.

I mean, okay. If you only want to give "best painted" to someone who painted the army himself, then I get it. I have very few qualms with that. But, to give him minimum points in scoring, as if he only gave them 3 colors? That strikes me as a slap in the face.
Keep in mind, I'm presuming that, like most/many tourneys, you count painting score towards who the overall winner is.

If a tournaments scoring system includes the painting and modelling skill of your army, why is it unfair not to allow points to someone who didn't paint it, all they did was stump up the cash. A tournament is a test of skill, if you have no skill why do you deserve points?

Emp's right if you didn't do you don't desevre the credit and taking credit for someone elses work is cheating. if someone won by 2 points cos of the painting standard of the army but had nothing to do with it, wouldn;t you think everyone else in the tournament would be off and have no belief in the integrity of the organiser and not come back again.

I'm sorry you feel that Emp's integrity and belief in fair play sickens you

As a winner myself this year I don't see the point, it must feel so shallow to win with something you haven't done. And although plaigarism is rarely pursuded in court, it is illegal and is classed as theft as far as I'm aware (I work at a university).

Poor Effort

BluntmanDC wrote:I'm sorry you feel that Emp's integrity and belief in fair play sickens you

Wow. A bit harsh there. Huh?

Where did I saiy it sickens me? That's quite an insult, considering just how thoroughly I went over my post to ensure that it was written in a respectful tone and avoided inflammatory language. That's something that not everyone online -or even on Dakka- can say for themselves. Maybe you should take notes on that.

@Emp... I've had quite a number of experiences with you online. I absolutely believe that you're a good organizer. Everything i've seen of you indicates as much.
I think our disagreement re: painted models probably stems from our views of the tournament. It looks to me like you prefer Hobby tournaments, where I prefer Game tournaments.
Which, of course, is not to say either is better than the other. It's just to piont out the difference.

That's why I like the Ard Boys tournament. It is a clear-cut GAME tourney. It's about how hard of a list you build, and how well you play it.
I don't think painting scores SHOULD come into play in a tournament. I'm not there to compare best painted models (not during the tourney, anyway). I'm there to play the game, have fun, and test my mettle as a "general." I think the "skill test" of the tourney should be how well you *play the game,* and should not be reflected in *how well you paint.*
For comparing painted models, I'll enter the painting competition.
-Again, that's just MY opinion. I know not everyone agrees.

Sadly, there are NOT a lot of tourneys out there that operate differently than yours. Not that are easy to get to for everyone, at least.
If yours is the only one around, anyone not painting their own stuff is SOL. You know?

Re: The ban:
I know it's a GW staple. For adults, I support it and think that they might need to throw in a public flogging, for good measure. : )
With kids, though... Eh. Maybe I'm just getting old and soft hearted.
I mean, it's not like he killed someone. He cheated. People are forgiven for cheating at worse things. Especially kids.

To reiterate, though... I'm not actively opposing GW's p.o.v. on it. I'm just lamenting the fact that it's that way.

Eric

@Magik: this all kinda flows in together actually. This in all stretches is a hobby, and for some of us a profession as well. As such we need to hold true to the rules of the game, and play fair. People work hard to earn those tropheys and for somone to buy it and play it off as their own is just wrong. If a 12 year old kills somone they still must be punished for murder, and will be tried as such. They will be in jail much longer then till they are 18. As such we know the difference between right and wrong and this kid was wrong and as such was not just an afront to himself but to those thousands of others who have legitimately competed. As per the tourney sense, if their is a style you like then go with it. If their is not a tourney near you that does what you like then make your own. At this point in the game their is no real excuse for people to say they can't have their cake and eat it too. I have traveled across international borders for events. I am by no means rich believe me but I saved for those one or two times a year and went.

I'm curious Emp, if someone brought an army list that they found online, would you ban them? They didn't do the work of coming up with an army themselves, someone else did all the work for them.

It's not exactly the same, since having a list dosen't magically give you the right skills to use it right

Aduro wrote:I'm curious Emp, if someone brought an army list that they found online, would you ban them? They didn't do the work of coming up with an army themselves, someone else did all the work for them.

HoverBoy wrote:It's not exactly the same, since having a list dosen't magically give you the right skills to use it right

I agree with Hover.Their are so many duplicate lists out their as once combo that works tends to get used a lot so who cares on those.

I agree - I'd imagine we'll be seeing many more carbon copy leaf-blower lists popping up in the 2500 'Ard Boyz circuits