I am an eldar player and i have resintly goten into the story and as you can probably see cant type for crap so i wanted every ones opinion on what or who do you think they are

p.s. if you think the hive mind is a pist off old one say oy

oy

The Old Ones are the Old Ones. They are their own race. No relation to hive mind. Why does everyone keep trying to make the hive mind something else? Nobody ever says the Emperor is a Termagaunt.

KamikazeCanuck wrote: Nobody ever says the Emperor is a Termagaunt.

Woah woah woah...

So your saying... The Brain Dead Emperor of the Golden Toilet Throne... ISN'T Termagaunt?!
Damn.... 20 years of my life... a lie



But no. The Old ones. Are the Old ones.
There super awesome magical guys.

/thread

I was just trying to create some shock value. Rest assured The Emperor is a termagaunt.

Anyways, OP The Old Ones are Frog-People. No, seriously.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I was just trying to create some shock value. Rest assured The Emperor is a termagaunt.

Anyways, OP The Old Ones are Frog-People. No, seriously.

The "frog people" are the Slann. It's possible that the Slann are the Old Ones, but I don't think there's ever been much of an indication of that either way beyond an apparent comment that if you wanted to play an Old One army you should use WFB Lizardmen (who happen to be led by a very different version of Slann).

The Slann might be the Old Ones. But there's not enough information to indicate for certain.

It used to be for certain in the rt/2nd Ed days. Now, they are mentioned similarly to wfb, as servants of the old ones.

Eumerin wrote:The "frog people" are the Slann. It's possible that the Slann are the Old Ones, but I don't think there's ever been much of an indication of that either way beyond an apparent comment that if you wanted to play an Old One army you should use WFB Lizardmen (who happen to be led by a very different version of Slann).

That and in 40k the Old Ones used to be called The Old Slann.

GW have split the Slann from the Old Ones now in some respects but there are still hints that they could be the same. Nothing explicitly states otherwise.

The Old Ones created the Slann. They are totally different, some say the Slann descended from the old ones. haven't you guys ever heard of cthulu? he is one of many old ones.

Foxy_Grandpa wrote:The Old Ones created the Slann. They are totally different, some say the Slann descended from the old ones. haven't you guys ever heard of cthulu? he is one of many old ones.

Ctlulu is a plush toy, and a really cute one.

Old One = Slann, at least before GW revamp everything and removed the WFB world from the being some distant planet in 40K. Remember when 40K and Fantasy could beat each other up.

now one of my friends told me that they were actuly in the game in the first edition. aparently they looked like the lizard men

The Old Ones are the Old Ones. We know nothing more. They created the Eldar, Slaan, and Orks, amognst other races.

Well, they probably have two arms, two legs and a head, seeing everything they made seems to fallow that structure.

Mr Nobody wrote:Well, they probably have two arms, two legs and a head, seeing everything they made seems to fallow that structure.

I think they're void whales. They are lizard-like, live very long lives, and that would be amazing, for there to be these giant cities, the size of planets, floating through the warp. The reason their creations have two legs, two arms, and a head is because that is the best form for terrestrial transportation.

The Old Ones are just Slann as far as 40k is concerned. Back in RT and 2nd edition this was known, as it wasn't a big mystery. It hasn't changed since then as far as I recall. You can even go to solgens and check out the RT models of the Old Ones/Slann. Cute little lizard/frog people they are!

BuFFo wrote:The Old Ones are just Slann as far as 40k is concerned. Back in RT and 2nd edition this was known,

The fluff changes as time goes on. Rogue Trader era fluff is out of date and quite frequently unusable. In current fluff, the Old Ones created the slann, but they are not themselves slann.

That same fluff also says there's little difference between humans and Eldar, yet in modern fluff Eldar have a quintuple helix shaped DNA, thus making them completely different genetically from anything that we have ever encountered on Earth. Similarly, that same fluff that talks about the Slann (or rather, the Old Slann) states the Slann didn't have any cataclysm that ended their golden age, they just retired from galactic affairs-- quite different from the Old Ones in modern fluff, which were basically made extinct by the C'tan and Enslaver Plague.

As others have said the Old Ones are the Old Ones and not some other race, like the Tyranids. Much of the Old Ones background is based upon portions of the background found for the Slann in Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader and in Codex Necrons they are described as having a 'cold-blooded wisdom'.

That's about as much as we can say about the Old Ones although it is feasible that the Slann could be some kind of distantly related ancestor to the Old Ones or more likely the descendants of the first race the Old Ones created/fostered.

does cold blooded wisdom=logic to the point of heartlesesness and chilly lack of emotion?

Melissia wrote:In current fluff, the Old Ones created the slann, but they are not themselves slann.

In current WHFB fluff, this is the case. I haven't seen anything in 40K fluff that has altered the status of the Slann from the RT-era. Do you have an actual source for this comment?

Does anyone not remember that the Slann were Slaaneshi-worshipping psycho lizards that were wiped out by the Emperor's Children in the HH book Fulgrim?

If that is what created the races of 40k (minus 'cronies and the roaches), may the Emperor save us all. Every being is the spawn of Slaanesh.

**puts bolt pistol to the head and prepares to pull the trigger**

stompydakka wrote:does cold blooded wisdom=logic to the point of heartlesesness and chilly lack of emotion?

I think, for me, the Old Ones have always come across as a race that was supposed to be fair and even-handed, creating life and helping other races but realistically I would prefer to think of them just as you say, heartless and emotionless. In the Necron Codex the Old Ones don't seem to have much to do with the races we are familiar with until they were desperately trying to stop the C'tan from toppling all of their works and destroying their species. The result was that they fostered warlike races and either made them psychic or increased whatever psychic tendencies they already had not to benefit those races but because it suited the Old Ones purposes. This is what change the Warp from a realm of calm energy into the seething mass of uncontrolled potentitality that exists in the forty-first millennium, the origins of Choas, the Enslaver Plague and the spread of those warlike races across the galaxy, this is all down to the Old Ones.

It could well be then that these benevolent ancients were anything but and only interacted with 'the young races', (realistically those races that were in no position to stop the Old Ones from using them) in order to manipulate and control them to fulfill some specific need or design of the Old Ones. Afterall, if they did in fact create dozens of races and were able to tinker about with others, why didn't they just help the Necrontyr overcome the abnormalities their sun had caused? I mean you'd think that a species like the Old Ones, given everything we are told about them, wouldn't even have a broken a sweat reversing the damage to the Necrontyr DNA caused by the radiation of their sun. Instead we have the Necrontyr eventually coming to loathe the Old Ones and eventually, this sickly breed are utterly crushed by the overwhelming psychic and technological superiority of the Old Ones, banished to the furthest edges of the galaxy, thoroughly whipped and humiliated.

If we look at the Slann background for some idea as to what the Old Ones could have been like we see two types of Slann; technologically advanced ones (far more so than any of the other races) with a closed society and no interaction with outsiders and warlike, semi-barbaric ones. Add to this the fact that the advanced Slann have a closed society not just to other species but to their own, less sophisticated, kin. Maybe that's what the Old Ones were like, the first race, arrogant with it, crossing the starts with no effort, seeding world after world with their own kind and whenever they encountered a race they thought they could use they changed and altered them to suit. Against the horror of the C'tan it sounds like a good deal but did these races have any choice in the matter or did the Old Ones just turn up and starting messing about with their DNA? Maybe that's what got the Necrontyr so bitter, the Old Ones encountered them, saw them to be a race of twisted weaklings with inferior technology and gave them the brush off. Who knows, maybe they even threw in a little taunting for good measure, they ran rings around the Necrontyr when they finally attacked, seems like the sort of thing the Old Ones might well have done.


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ShadowAngel159 wrote:Does anyone not remember that the Slann were Slaaneshi-worshipping psycho lizards that were wiped out by the Emperor's Children in the HH book Fulgrim?

I don't remember it but it does ring a bell. Do you have a page reference?

ShadowAngel159 wrote:Does anyone not remember that the Slann were Slaaneshi-worshipping psycho lizards that were wiped out by the Emperor's Children in the HH book Fulgrim?

If that is what created the races of 40k (minus 'cronies and the roaches), may the Emperor save us all. Every being is the spawn of Slaanesh.

**puts bolt pistol to the head and prepares to pull the trigger**

Nope, don't remember that.

oy, in a way

The old ones are exactly that. OLD. No one has seen one in millions of years, and the only clues they have in the 41st millennium come from ancient eldar texts. All of them are dead, except possibly any of them that escaped to other galaxies.

The Old ones created everything in 40k (except the tyranids and necrons, afaik) which means a little piece of their appearance is in everything that's alive.

From that, we can assume they looked like necrons do now, as the necrons were supposed to be a sick and twisted imitation of the old ones themselves.

We can also assume that they were humanoid, large and very smart. That's about it

I'm convinced that both the emperor and the Hive Mind are somehow related to the old ones. The Emprah especially. His characteristics are strongly suggestive of those of the old ones. But that's just me

They are gods. Literally they are super-energy beings, when they die.

ShadowAngel159 wrote:Does anyone not remember that the Slann were Slaaneshi-worshipping psycho lizards that were wiped out by the Emperor's Children in the HH book Fulgrim?

If that is what created the races of 40k (minus 'cronies and the roaches), may the Emperor save us all. Every being is the spawn of Slaanesh.

**puts bolt pistol to the head and prepares to pull the trigger**

Utterly and completely false. The slann were one of the original races that the old ones created in the beggining of time. They later deviated into the eldar, I believe.

The name is just a coincidence, as far as I know. However, it's possible that 'slaanesh' means something like 'The perverse old one" in eldar language or something

You should also know that the warp was created by the old ones. AFTER they created the Slann. MUCH, MUCH LATER. Therefore, slaanesh couldn't have possibly existed.


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Foxy_Grandpa wrote:The Old Ones created the Slann. They are totally different, some say the Slann descended from the old ones. haven't you guys ever heard of cthulu? he is one of many old ones.

This is true. Except for that last part

Yeah. I still think they are energy beings with an attitude
either that or they are a super hybrid.

I think they were just unemotional. They were too smart for emotion, I think.

It's also mentionable that the orks were created around the same time as the slann, and that orks are still a giant part of the modern glaxy; hundreds of millions of years after they were created

Orks are the best. But these weren't really like modern orks. They were called 'krorks'

Samus_aran115 wrote:You should also know that the warp was created by the old ones.

The Old Ones did not create the warp.

Gogsnik wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:You should also know that the warp was created by the old ones.

The Old Ones did not create the warp.

No, but the conflict that occurred between the necrons and the old one's creations made the warp what is...

Samus_aran115 wrote:No, but the conflict that occurred between the necrons and the old one's creations made the warp what is...

I know that, I mentioned it earlier, but you said that the Old Ones created the warp, and maybe you did mean something different so fair enough, but why would I assume that you meant something completely different to what you actually said...?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Old Ones are the Old Ones. They are their own race. No relation to hive mind. Why does everyone keep trying to make the hive mind something else? Nobody ever says the Emperor is a Termagaunt.

No, Your wrong the emporor is a ripper swarm

Gogsnik wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:No, but the conflict that occurred between the necrons and the old one's creations made the warp what is...

I know that, I mentioned it earlier, but you said that the Old Ones created the warp, and maybe you did mean something different so fair enough, but why would I assume that you meant something completely different to what you actually said...?

I think Samus meant the Webway.

I've always liked to think that the old ones were humanoid forms, seeing as everything species they created had two arms and two legs,
Humans=The last few blood descendent's of the old ones, they're psychic powers are just hidden away until the end times begin...at least thats what I like to think in my crazy mind but you know...

Probably starting a thread in a thread, but what happened to the Old ones exactly to make them all die/disapear?

The C'tan thought they were tasty, and then as the Old Ones created the Eldar, Krork, and so on to fight back, said species caused turbulence in the warp that allowed the Krell to come out in what is known as the Enslaver Plague. Said plague either finished them off or forced them out of the galaxy, and forced the C'tan into hiding and hibernation.

From the word enslaver plague i think you mean choas right or are they other warp beings like Gork/mork.
Next can i ask how then gork/mork (the ork "gods") and the eldar gods came to be, as when i started 40k a few years back i was told they where oldones but obvs their not so what are they?

oldone wrote:From the word enslaver plague i think you mean choas right or are they other warp beings like Gork/mork.
Next can i ask how then gork/mork (the ork "gods") and the eldar gods came to be, as when i started 40k a few years back i was told they where oldones but obvs their not so what are they?

they were made by the Orks and the Eldar. They are their gods. Just the way Tzneetch, Nurgle, and Khrone were made by humans.

The Krell/Enslavers are warp-native beings which aren't daemons. They control peoples' minds and attempt to control psykers so that they can use them to form a gate through which more enslavers can pass.

Gork and Mork were created by the psychic energies of the Orks. They're utterly invincible gods of the warp, watching over and smiling upon their race.

ShadowAngel159 wrote:Does anyone not remember that the Slann were Slaaneshi-worshipping psycho lizards that were wiped out by the Emperor's Children in the HH book Fulgrim?

If that is what created the races of 40k (minus 'cronies and the roaches), may the Emperor save us all. Every being is the spawn of Slaanesh.

**puts bolt pistol to the head and prepares to pull the trigger**

the slann predate the birth of slaanesh (the chaos god) by thousands and thousands of years (maybe it was a small group of slann that turned to chaos), and the old ones themselves predate all the chaos gods.

from the fact that the warp was so quiet and safe before the c'tan/old ones galactic war, it can be guessed that the old ones were unemotional, keeping the warp entities peaceful

Melissia wrote:The Krell/Enslavers are warp-native beings which aren't daemons. They control peoples' minds and attempt to control psykers so that they can use them to form a gate through which more enslavers can pass.

Gork and Mork were created by the psychic energies of the Orks. They're utterly invincible gods of the warp, watching over and smiling upon their race.

Yeah, I think I read something about how Gork and Mork are more powerful than all the chaos gods combined.... Which brings up my question....If the orks created their own warp gods from their emotions, then why hasn't the eternal hunger of the tyranids created something in the warp?

Is it because they're a 'shadow in the warp'? That they have no presence in the warp in the first place?


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BluntmanDC wrote:

ShadowAngel159 wrote:Does anyone not remember that the Slann were Slaaneshi-worshipping psycho lizards that were wiped out by the Emperor's Children in the HH book Fulgrim?

If that is what created the races of 40k (minus 'cronies and the roaches), may the Emperor save us all. Every being is the spawn of Slaanesh.

**puts bolt pistol to the head and prepares to pull the trigger**

the slann predate the birth of slaanesh (the chaos god) by thousands and thousands of years (maybe it was a small group of slann that turned to chaos), and the old ones themselves predate all the chaos gods.

from the fact that the warp was so quiet and safe before the c'tan/old ones galactic war, it can be guessed that the old ones were unemotional, keeping the warp entities peaceful

I think they knew how powerful the warp was, and how drastically their emotions could change it, so they deliberately closed off their emotions.

The old ones? You mean the xelnaga? Wait...

The hunger of the Tyranids DID create something.

The Hive Mind.


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juraigamer wrote:The old ones? You mean the xelnaga? Wait...

No.

juraigamer wrote:The old ones? You mean the xelnaga? Wait...

-.- Wrong game

ok i have only about 2 things to say every one is saying that the Old ones were the first race bat that is false the necron gods were the first. Also the Old ones arnt part of the material world they lived in the warp if any one here has red the pasige about isha and about the grate eldar god made a barrier imbetween the warp and the fiscal world then you would no this not saying you dont just saying it didnt come to mind. Plus we already no wat the old ones looked like or atleast one of them. Khain he is a living god. Plus the old ones had wars with each other so i think they were very much like humans

Eldrad wrote:ok i have only about 2 things to say every one is saying that the Old ones were the first race bat that is false the necron gods were the first. Also the Old ones arnt part of the material world they lived in the warp if any one here has red the pasige about isha and about the grate eldar god made a barrier imbetween the warp and the fiscal world then you would no this not saying you dont just saying it didnt come to mind. Plus we already no wat the old ones looked like or atleast one of them. Khain he is a living god. Plus the old ones had wars with each other so i think they were very much like humans

Please check grammar and spelling.
Also i don't think the Old Ones are the Eldar gods...


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Also the C'tan were sort of immaterial enrgy thingies so they don't count as a race.

they were living and there were quite a fue of them so i would say they had some way of reproducing so ya i would call them a species and yes they were the eldar gods

p.s. i no i suck at spelling and i apologize for my crapy spelling

Samus_aran115 wrote:Is it because they're a 'shadow in the warp'? That they have no presence in the warp in the first place?

The Shadow in the Warp is a psychic emanation created by the hive fleet/s. In a similar way in that the Astronomican is a psychic beacon the Shadow in the Warp is a psychic blanket (although Codex Tyranids also calls it a 'beacon [of terror]'). In terms of warp deities the Tyranids have none.

Eldrad wrote:ok i have only about 2 things to say every one is saying that the Old ones were the first race bat that is false the necron gods were the first. Also the Old ones arnt part of the material world they lived in the warp if any one here has red the pasige about isha and about the grate eldar god made a barrier imbetween the warp and the fiscal world then you would no this not saying you dont just saying it didnt come to mind. Plus we already no wat the old ones looked like or atleast one of them. Khain he is a living god. Plus the old ones had wars with each other so i think they were very much like humans

Quoted for Truth.


Now I am going to take the liberty of tidying up that mess in order to respond properly.

Okay, I have only about two things to say. Everyone is saying that the Old Ones were the first race but that is false; the Necron gods were the first.

Nobody is saying anything of the sort. The Old Ones were the first sentient race to cross the stars, planet based life specifically according to Codex Necrons. That does not mean people are saying they were the first lifeforms to exist.

Also, the Old Ones aren't part of the material world, they lived in the warp and if anyone here has read the passage about Isha and about the great Eldar god that made a barrier inbetween the warp and the physical world then you would know this. I'm not saying you don't know, I'm just saying it didn't come to mind.

Firstly, the Old Ones did not live in the warp, they had mastery over it. Secondly, the passage to which you refer, The Tears of Isha, is an Eldar creation myth that has nothing to do with the Old Ones.

Plus we already know what the Old Ones looked like or at least one of them, Khaine, he is a living god.

The Eldar gods are not Old Ones.

Plus the Old Ones had wars with each other...

Untrue, unless you have a source to verify that assertion.

...so I think they were very much like humans.

Even if it were true that the Old Ones did war against each other, and I don't recall reading a single piece of background to say that they did (although I haven't read everything so I could be mistaken) it in no way infers that they were anything like humans in either appearance or mentality.

The Old Ones... are squats!

Sure I might be wrong, but the two are very VERY similar. Very. Hell starcraft was created based on 40k after all.

Melissia wrote:The hunger of the Tyranids DID create something.

The Hive Mind.

Er...I thought it was the opposite

The hive mind psychically links the Tyranid swarms, ergo it is a Warp construct. Imagine the "god" of a colony of army ants; consider biomorphs as the equivalent of Gifts of Chaos or a Hive Tyrant as a Daemon Prince. It just operates along the lines of natural selection, instead of the randomized behavior of the Chaos gods.

I sort of wonder if beings consumed by the Tyranids would also be devoured on a psychic level, unless they were strong enough to resist the Shadow in the Warp.

Mr Nobody wrote:The Old Ones... are squats!

HERSEY!
YOU JUST GOT PURGED!

Gogsnik wrote:The Eldar gods are not Old Ones.

What? Everything I've heard so far points to eldar gods = old ones.

No, timline is wrong for that theory.

The Old Ones were the first sentient race to become spacefaring having originated on a planet, evolving over time like any other species. They were however the supreme masters of the warp and their psychic abilities were great indeed.

The Eldar gods are warp entities that formed based upon various aspects of the Eldar psyche, likely at some point before the War in Heaven.

Do you know what's interesting?
Dinosaurs are older than most of the species in 40k despite their suposed ancient-ness...

Well, the old ones did mysteriously disappear, just like the dinosaurs did.


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We might be onto something.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Old Ones are the Old Ones. They are their own race. No relation to hive mind. Why does everyone keep trying to make the hive mind something else? Nobody ever says the Emperor is a Termagaunt.

But he is a Genestealer.

That would be crazy if true and if I really meant that statement.


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juraigamer wrote:The old ones? You mean the xelnaga? Wait...

>< Why do I keep seeing references to the game made by thieves?

Every one brings up a good point ive done some thinking i still believe that the ledar followed under the influince of the old ones but the eldar gods were not myth symply because if you can turn a normal man sized biend into a giant rampaging beast there must be some sort of super natrau conection. and i dont mean chaos spawn i mean the blood avatar. also squats got ate by nids


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th one thing i dont get is why is it so imposible for the hive mind to just be a pist off god or old one in hiding some were in another galixy just directing the nids around they would be smart anough to


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and thank youph34r and Mr Nobody also i believe in the eldar gods took part in the war in the heavens

Gogsnik wrote:The Old Ones were the first sentient race to become spacefaring having originated on a planet, evolving over time like any other species. They were however the supreme masters of the warp and their psychic abilities were great indeed.

The Eldar gods are warp entities that formed based upon various aspects of the Eldar psyche, likely at some point before the War in Heaven.

Xenology has some weird and questionable stuff in it, but it implied that the Eldar gods were engineered by the Old Ones along with the Eldar. Perhaps as a way of providing touchstones for the powerful emotions and abilities of the new race, but also as tools/weapons in their own right. Eventually, their original purposes were forgotten and the Eldar began to relate to their gods in a more conventionally worshipful fashion. However, they were different aspects of the same creation.

The book also suggested that Old Ones could exist in either the Warp or realspace, and maybe didn't have a single form. The Umbra are the remains of the last of the Old Ones, after Slaanesh got through with it.

The old ones are not the eldar gods. They are just a super intelligent reptilian species if WHF fluff is anything to go by.

Also they did not create the eldar, the eldar are the children of Isha, one of the actual eldar gods.

Eldrad wrote:th one thing i dont get is why is it so imposible for the hive mind to just be a pist off god or old one in hiding some were in another galixy just directing the nids around they would be smart anough to

It's not possible because the background states that the Hive Mind is exactly that, the hive's mind, a gestalt consciousness formed from all the individual consciousnesses of every Tyranid organism.

Exopheric wrote:Xenology has some weird and questionable stuff in it, but it implied that the Eldar gods were engineered by the Old Ones along with the Eldar.

It does? I just had a re-read and didn't see anything that would allude to that conclusion but I am a little tired so maybe I missed it. Is there a specific passage you could direct me to?

The book also suggested that Old Ones could exist in either the Warp or realspace, and maybe didn't have a single form. The Umbra are the remains of the last of the Old Ones, after Slaanesh got through with it.

Again, I would question that first assertion, I don't see much evidence of the Old Ones being discussed in Xenology, unless you can direct me to some reference I missed. As to the Umbra, I can only assume that the mad ravings of Salvador come from Slaanesh and his mention of, 'She's born in the longears' brains' and, 'chops him a million times, and kicks the shards out into the cold.' sounds more like the destruction of Khaine to me than anything related to the Umbra.

LeetBix wrote:The old ones are not the eldar gods. They are just a super intelligent reptilian species if WHF fluff is anything to go by.

Also they did not create the eldar, the eldar are the children of Isha, one of the actual eldar gods.

1. you seemed to haven't read alot of fluff, the eldar are one of the many sentient races created by the old ones to fight against the c'tan
2. warp gods are created by the thoughts of mortal beings not the other way round
3. the thousands and thousands of years that the eldar have existed has probable led to a melding of facts into their present creation myths, it can be assumed the the eldar gods as presented in myth are a mix of actual old ones and the warp entities, with the production of the eldar being done by the old ones and the eldar gods forming from the minds of the eldar (although the idea that the shape these warp entities took was guided by the old ones is quite plausable). while certain material actions by the old ones in relation to the eldar (such as the possible true origin of the blackstone fortresses) have been attributed to the eldar gods as the knowledge of the old ones is lost.
4. whf and 40k are seperate, 100%, that is what GW HQ has now gone for.

Gogsnik wrote:

Eldrad wrote:th one thing i dont get is why is it so imposible for the hive mind to just be a pist off god or old one in hiding some were in another galixy just directing the nids around they would be smart anough to

It's not possible because the background states that the Hive Mind is exactly that, the hive's mind, a gestalt consciousness formed from all the individual consciousnesses of every Tyranid organism.

Exopheric wrote:Xenology has some weird and questionable stuff in it, but it implied that the Eldar gods were engineered by the Old Ones along with the Eldar.

It does? I just had a re-read and didn't see anything that would allude to that conclusion but I am a little tired so maybe I missed it. Is there a specific passage you could direct me to?

The book also suggested that Old Ones could exist in either the Warp or realspace, and maybe didn't have a single form. The Umbra are the remains of the last of the Old Ones, after Slaanesh got through with it.

Again, I would question that first assertion, I don't see much evidence of the Old Ones being discussed in Xenology, unless you can direct me to some reference I missed. As to the Umbra, I can only assume that the mad ravings of Salvador come from Slaanesh and his mention of, 'She's born in the longears' brains' and, 'chops him a million times, and kicks the shards out into the cold.' sounds more like the destruction of Khaine to me than anything related to the Umbra.

"Star Devils lock horns triumphant and Old Gods killed-away. Killed, she says, all but one. Hid away, he did. Up to his Old Ways, tweaking and dabbling, poking and prodding...." Suggests to me the war between the Old Ones and the C'tan, with one survivor. After he did the things he set out to do he retreated back into the warp only to encounter Slaanesh and her new Cusinart. There are parallels to the Hrud patron described later in the book. However, Xenology also confuses or conflates archetypal gods like Khaine, Isha and Cegorach with the Old Ones and it's difficult to come up with a clear explanation. Umm, I really can't recall where I saw that first idea now, maybe I made it up....

BluntmanDC wrote:3. the thousands and thousands of years that the eldar have existed has probable led to a melding of facts into their present creation myths, it can be assumed the the eldar gods as presented in myth are a mix of actual old ones and the warp entities, with the production of the eldar being done by the old ones and the eldar gods forming from the minds of the eldar (although the idea that the shape these warp entities took was guided by the old ones is quite plausable). while certain material actions by the old ones in relation to the eldar (such as the possible true origin of the blackstone fortresses) have been attributed to the eldar gods as the knowledge of the old ones is lost.

imo the bit of information that most strongly suggests this is the idea that Cegorach managed to trick one of the C'Tan into eating his fellows. I'd hazard a guess that the Harlequin god Cegorach in fact originated in the myths and legends revolving around one particularly crafty Old One.

But it would then be the act of believing in cegorach in myth and worship that would create the warp being cegorach, when fact is then replaced with myth and religion that is when the gods are formed and the original deeds of the old ones are given over to the newly born gods.

The old ones are their own race. They had a fight with the C'tan and made The Krork (Orks). They are not the same guys as lizardmen gods or slann. It is an alternative timeline.

BluntmanDC wrote:But it would then be the act of believing in cegorach in myth and worship that would create the warp being cegorach, when fact is then replaced with myth and religion that is when the gods are formed and the original deeds of the old ones are given over to the newly born gods.

Kind of like how the warp version of George Washington would chop down cherry trees, and the warp version of Abraham Lincoln would be scrupulously honest.

purplefood wrote:Do you know what's interesting?
Dinosaurs are older than most of the species in 40k despite their suposed ancient-ness...

That IS pretty interesting, considering how relatively recently dinosaurs existed. It's really been nothing more than a blip between the dinosaurs and now.

What's intersting is dinosaurs died out at the same time as everything else: 60-65 million years ago.
Also interesting is dinosaurs are found on Eldar Exodite planets.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's intersting is dinosaurs died out at the same time as everything else: 60-65 million years ago.
Also interesting is dinosaurs are found on Eldar Exodite planets.

Clearly this means only one thing:
VELOCIRAPTORS ARE OLD ONES

Klawz wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's intersting is dinosaurs died out at the same time as everything else: 60-65 million years ago.
Also interesting is dinosaurs are found on Eldar Exodite planets.

Clearly this means only one thing:
VELOCIRAPTORS ARE OLD ONES

what? no, I....uh nevermind...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Klawz wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:What's intersting is dinosaurs died out at the same time as everything else: 60-65 million years ago.
Also interesting is dinosaurs are found on Eldar Exodite planets.

Clearly this means only one thing:
VELOCIRAPTORS ARE OLD ONES

what? no, I....uh nevermind...

This is the truth, you know it is so. Velociraptors have infiltraited up to the highest levels of government, what's to stop them from being old ones?

Exopheric wrote:Umm, I really can't recall where I saw that first idea now, maybe I made it up....

Fair enough.

"Star Devils lock horns triumphant and Old Gods killed-away. Killed, she says, all but one. Hid away, he did. Up to his Old Ways, tweaking and dabbling, poking and prodding...." Suggests to me the war between the Old Ones and the C'tan, with one survivor. After he did the things he set out to do he retreated back into the warp only to encounter Slaanesh and her new Cusinart. There are parallels to the Hrud patron described later in the book. However, Xenology also confuses or conflates archetypal gods like Khaine, Isha and Cegorach with the Old Ones and it's difficult to come up with a clear explanation.

I wasn't sure about that either, its pretty vague but I would agree that it seems to indicate an Old One potentially.

Yeah, I think I read something about how Gork and Mork are more powerful than all the chaos gods combined.... Which brings up my question....If the orks created their own warp gods from their emotions, then why hasn't the eternal hunger of the tyranids created something in the warp?

Is it because they're a 'shadow in the warp'? That they have no presence in the warp in the first place?

Well I read an article on the hive mind, it said that it wasnt really a being but a collective consciousness, it sounded very similiar to the ork gods now that I read it. MAYBE the hive mind IS the warp! Could make sense, or I just felt like making a very controversial theory.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/02/40k-fluff-nature-of-hivemind.html

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Yeah, I think I read something about how Gork and Mork are more powerful than all the chaos gods combined.... Which brings up my question....If the orks created their own warp gods from their emotions, then why hasn't the eternal hunger of the tyranids created something in the warp?

Is it because they're a 'shadow in the warp'? That they have no presence in the warp in the first place?

Well I read an article on the hive mind, it said that it wasnt really a being but a collective consciousness, it sounded very similiar to the ork gods now that I read it. MAYBE the hive mind IS the warp! Could make sense, or I just felt like making a very controversial theory.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/02/40k-fluff-nature-of-hivemind.html

Well, if the hive mind IS the warp then that would mean that the Chaos Gods, which reside in the warp are a part of the hive mind. That is something that I find very very unlikely.

In the 40k orcs codex it talks about a lost race. They created the orcs as soldiers. They used psyhic powers to control the Orcs but eventually died off from some sickness that didnt transfer to the races they created. Leaving orcs leaderless to go nuts fighting everything. There not anything anymore.

haha it is unlikely. but it sounds interesting. The warp is natural, the tyranid are described as a force of nature. The hive fleets create a shadow in the warp and communication is transmitted instantly to tyranid forces. The hive mind seems to do almost everything through the warp. Also, the article in my above message describes it as a collective conciousness not a living thing. So where else would it reside? No its not the warp lol to far fetched. I believe however that it resides in the warp like any god, and is similiar to an ork god, having been CREATED by Tyranid consciensnous.

Hmm, perhaps the hive mind is like the bugs from starship troopers that truly has one single leader controlling them all, or influencing them atleast? If that isn't so then there are some that are smart that control the lessers, but are all connected to eachother so they know what they are doing?
This one sound confusing to anyone else but me?

The Hive Mind is very well documented in Codex: Tyranids. No conjecture is needed. All Synapse are the Hive mind and the Hive mind is all Synapse creatures.

Hmm...well if you look at the rule book, you will find a table of all the nids forces linking to something or another. At the root of it all is the hive mind, which implies that it is a single creature, or to me it does.
I haven't had a chance to look at the new nid dex, nor did I actually read the fluff in the last ed.

it implies it is a single entity, not a singe creature.

The Old Ones are in game references to the old school game designers like Jervis Johnson.

zadelistol wrote:Hmm...well if you look at the rule book, you will find a table of all the nids forces linking to something or another. At the root of it all is the hive mind, which implies that it is a single creature, or to me it does.
I haven't had a chance to look at the new nid dex, nor did I actually read the fluff in the last ed.

Actually i think the table thing is the geaology as some of the Tyranids evolved directly from others and some don't... it's like an alien family tree.

Ah. Well as I said in that post thats how it looked to me.
At a GW I used to go to, someone created a massive model to represent the hive mind. It was on display for a few months then i dont know what happened to it.

To the conversation about who ruled over the orks or directed them if you will was by other orks such as meck boys. You no those orks who get a torch and weld random things together and then it becomes a gun or a trukk those guys. They are the smarter ones who are ment to lead the orks only under the Old ones rule. By the way im getting this nolige from a guy who works at a store called greenfield games or griffins game and the guy calls himself buba. He is a big white dude who noes fluff but not how to play the game so if im wrong sorry. Ghazkul = ork Jesus

Eldrad wrote:To the conversation about who ruled over the orks or directed them if you will was by other orks such as meck boys. You no those orks who get a torch and weld random things together and then it becomes a gun or a trukk those guys. They are the smarter ones who are ment to lead the orks only under the Old ones rule. By the way im getting this nolige from a guy who works at a store called greenfield games or griffins game and the guy calls himself buba. He is a big white dude who noes fluff but not how to play the game so if im wrong sorry. Ghazkul = ork Jesus

Then you can tell Buba (should that be Bubba?) he's wrong. Meks did not rule orks under the guidance of the Old Ones; even without delving into the Brain Boyz background all we know for sure is that a green-skinned race called the Krork were used by the Old Ones, how their society was structured, how the Old Ones treated with them and how similar (if at all) they were to modern Orks is not mentioned in the background so anyone claiming they know is mistaken or talking out of their fundament.

Meks lead the Orks on Angelis (the setting for GorkaMorka) where they took on a leadership and semi-religious role. Perhaps Buba was thinking of that.

zadelistol wrote:Hmm...well if you look at the rule book, you will find a table of all the nids forces linking to something or another. At the root of it all is the hive mind, which implies that it is a single creature, or to me it does.
I haven't had a chance to look at the new nid dex, nor did I actually read the fluff in the last ed.

The Hive Mind is the collective conciousness of the entire Tyranid race, a psychic 'entity' made up of the collective minds of the entire race. This is why the Tyranids always seem to work in perfect harmony, even across hive fleets - what one Tyranid knows, all Tyranids know. Synapse creatures are the focal points, which have a slight degree of self awareness, guide the swarm based on that collective knowledge. The higher up the chain of synapse creatures, the more self awareness they have. Hive Tyrants are near the top, with only Dominatrices, Norn Queens and the Swarmlord above them. There is no one leader, with the possible exception of the Swarmlord, but he is only spawned when the Tyranids just can't win, it's not a permanant part of a hive fleet.

Eldrad wrote:To the conversation about who ruled over the orks or directed them if you will was by other orks such as meck boys. You no those orks who get a torch and weld random things together and then it becomes a gun or a trukk those guys. They are the smarter ones who are ment to lead the orks only under the Old ones rule. By the way im getting this nolige from a guy who works at a store called greenfield games or griffins game and the guy calls himself buba. He is a big white dude who noes fluff but not how to play the game so if im wrong sorry. Ghazkul = ork Jesus

Orks only have tech skills and psy abilites becouse the Brain Boyz (Old Ones?) where dumbing down (dying) and incoded the knowledge into there genes. Meks were never meant to lead, they are living stroes houses of the Brain Boyz knowledge and mental abitiles.

BluntmanDC wrote:

ShadowAngel159 wrote:Does anyone not remember that the Slann were Slaaneshi-worshipping psycho lizards that were wiped out by the Emperor's Children in the HH book Fulgrim?

If that is what created the races of 40k (minus 'cronies and the roaches), may the Emperor save us all. Every being is the spawn of Slaanesh.

**puts bolt pistol to the head and prepares to pull the trigger**

the slann predate the birth of slaanesh (the chaos god) by thousands and thousands of years (maybe it was a small group of slann that turned to chaos), and the old ones themselves predate all the chaos gods.

I think ShadowAngel159 is referring to the Laeran, the multiple armed snake like things.

-Loki- wrote:

zadelistol wrote:Hmm...well if you look at the rule book, you will find a table of all the nids forces linking to something or another. At the root of it all is the hive mind, which implies that it is a single creature, or to me it does.
I haven't had a chance to look at the new nid dex, nor did I actually read the fluff in the last ed.

The Hive Mind is the collective conciousness of the entire Tyranid race, a psychic 'entity' made up of the collective minds of the entire race. This is why the Tyranids always seem to work in perfect harmony, even across hive fleets - what one Tyranid knows, all Tyranids know. Synapse creatures are the focal points, which have a slight degree of self awareness, guide the swarm based on that collective knowledge. The higher up the chain of synapse creatures, the more self awareness they have. Hive Tyrants are near the top, with only Dominatrices, Norn Queens and the Swarmlord above them. There is no one leader, with the possible exception of the Swarmlord, but he is only spawned when the Tyranids just can't win, it's not a permanant part of a hive fleet.

The newest codex says on this

The Hive Mind holds all Tyranid Creatures in a psychic bond that enables them to act together as one gestalt organism. It is a single coordinating sentience formed from untold billions of individual consciences, each of which is a Tyranid.

The concept of the Hive Mind is a confusing one to me. If it's a singular conscience made up of untold billions, who gets to decide what to do? It kinda makes more sense to have the Hive Mind as a singular 'creature' rather than having it as being made up as it is. I guess the whole concept of it is as it should be, alien and impossible to fathom

Pilau Rice wrote:The concept of the Hive Mind is a confusing one to me. If it's a singular conscience made up of untold billions, who gets to decide what to do? It kinda makes more sense to have the Hive Mind as a singular 'creature' rather than having it as being made up as it is. I guess the whole concept of it is as it should be, alien and impossible to fathom

Although this is using another fluff universe as an explanation, the hive mind is like the borg, a single mind made of billions of smaller minds (where instead of the link being from radio waves or electronics its through the psychic link).

the idea of a hive mind is similar to the human brain, one choice (even a yes/no scenario) requires a multitude of thought processes and access to multiple memory pathways, so in this the hive mind is like the human brain, each tyranid represents a a small fraction of the thought process.

so in the hive mind it is everyone who decides what to do, but at the same time no one


If khrone's mind/personality is made up of a billion battles, billions and billions of angry thoughts and emotions, why is it implausable that the hive mind is not physical

BluntmanDC wrote:
Although this is using another fluff universe as an explanation, the hive mind is like the borg, a single mind made of billions of smaller minds (where instead of the link being from radio waves or electronics its through the psychic link).

Didn't the Borg have a queen?

BluntmanDC wrote:the idea of a hive mind is similar to the human brain, one choice (even a yes/no scenario) requires a multitude of thought processes and access to multiple memory pathways, so in this the hive mind is like the human brain, each tyranid represents a a small fraction of the thought process.

so in the hive mind it is everyone who decides what to do, but at the same time no one

But the human mind is still a single thing that sends out the orders to it's parts, regardless of how many choices and processes it needs to go through. I kind of get what you are saying. But where does the individual thought of the Hive Mind come from? I think that's what I am getting at, how do you come to one driving force from a billion individual minds.

Like I said ... alien and impossible to fathom

BluntmanDC wrote:If khrone's mind/personality is made up of a billion battles, billions and billions of angry thoughts and emotions, why is it implausable that the hive mind is not physical

Is this directed to me, i'm not saying that it isn't plausible, i'm just saying that it would be nice and easy to have it as a single entity Also that the 'nids don't seem to be anything more than insects and not warp related, apart from the Zoanthropes, more physical rather that psychic. Somewhat like the Necrons.

was anybody else surprised that the OPs name was Eldrad, how the feth did nobody get that name before him... what a dick

Because they are one mind. Think of each individual synapse breature as being equivilan to each individual brain cell in your brain. Both are sperated by distances in your case by inches in the Tyranid case by light years but they are just parts of a greater mind.

Ennkay wrote:was anybody else surprised that the OPs name was Eldrad, how the feth did nobody get that name before him... what a dick

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Because they are one mind. Think of each individual synapse breature as being equivilan to each individual brain cell in your brain. Both are sperated by distances in your case by inches in the Tyranid case by light years but they are just parts of a greater mind.

Yeah exactly my point.

I think my problem here is that I can't imagine something not having free will unless it's been dominated or there is a single point of origin for the thoughts to come from. As I see it the Hive Mind passes on it's will to the Synapse Creatures who in turn pass it down to the lesser Tyranid creatures. If a Synapse creature is killed the lesser creatures revert to their basic instinct as if they have been freed.

I do get where you are coming from guys and am not dismissing it, i'm just expressing it from my point of view and how I see how the Tyranids are.

Pilau Rice wrote:Didn't the Borg have a queen?

The borg queens are just mouth peices for the borg hive mind.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Because they are one mind. Think of each individual synapse breature as being equivilan to each individual brain cell in your brain. Both are sperated by distances in your case by inches in the Tyranid case by light years but they are just parts of a greater mind.

Exactly

Pilau Rice wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

zadelistol wrote:Hmm...well if you look at the rule book, you will find a table of all the nids forces linking to something or another. At the root of it all is the hive mind, which implies that it is a single creature, or to me it does.
I haven't had a chance to look at the new nid dex, nor did I actually read the fluff in the last ed.

The Hive Mind is the collective conciousness of the entire Tyranid race, a psychic 'entity' made up of the collective minds of the entire race. This is why the Tyranids always seem to work in perfect harmony, even across hive fleets - what one Tyranid knows, all Tyranids know. Synapse creatures are the focal points, which have a slight degree of self awareness, guide the swarm based on that collective knowledge. The higher up the chain of synapse creatures, the more self awareness they have. Hive Tyrants are near the top, with only Dominatrices, Norn Queens and the Swarmlord above them. There is no one leader, with the possible exception of the Swarmlord, but he is only spawned when the Tyranids just can't win, it's not a permanant part of a hive fleet.

The newest codex says on this

The Hive Mind holds all Tyranid Creatures in a psychic bond that enables them to act together as one gestalt organism. It is a single coordinating sentience formed from untold billions of individual consciences, each of which is a Tyranid.

The concept of the Hive Mind is a confusing one to me. If it's a singular conscience made up of untold billions, who gets to decide what to do? It kinda makes more sense to have the Hive Mind as a singular 'creature' rather than having it as being made up as it is. I guess the whole concept of it is as it should be, alien and impossible to fathom

What you quoted is what I said. It's a collective conciousness. One psychic entity that is the sum total of every Tyanid life. Therefore, it would know what each Tyranid knows. The hive mind knows what it wants, because it wants what every Tyranid wants. It's basically a big psychic brain made up of the knowledge of every Tyranid. However, synapse creatures are the hub of the hive mind, anything not near a synapse creature simply fall back on its instinctive knowledge, which differs from creature to creature. But when a creature is near a synapse creature, the hive mind can control it.

-Loki- wrote:
What you quoted is what I said. It's a collective conciousness. One psychic entity that is the sum total of every Tyanid life. Therefore, it would know what each Tyranid knows. The hive mind knows what it wants, because it wants what every Tyranid wants. It's basically a big psychic brain made up of the knowledge of every Tyranid. However, synapse creatures are the hub of the hive mind, anything not near a synapse creature simply fall back on its instinctive knowledge, which differs from creature to creature. But when a creature is near a synapse creature, the hive mind can control it.

Yes, I was quoting it to add emphasis and fluff to your point

I get how the Tyranids are, how basically then are one body controlled by one mind that works in unison from billions, but having a big super fiend would be kinda cool. I had the idea that the Tyranids were created by the last of the old ones to correct the mistakes made by their upstart children, to start again and wipe the slate clean.

Pilau Rice wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
What you quoted is what I said. It's a collective conciousness. One psychic entity that is the sum total of every Tyanid life. Therefore, it would know what each Tyranid knows. The hive mind knows what it wants, because it wants what every Tyranid wants. It's basically a big psychic brain made up of the knowledge of every Tyranid. However, synapse creatures are the hub of the hive mind, anything not near a synapse creature simply fall back on its instinctive knowledge, which differs from creature to creature. But when a creature is near a synapse creature, the hive mind can control it.

Yes, I was quoting it to add emphasis and fluff to your point

I get how the Tyranids are, how basically then are one body controlled by one mind that works in unison from billions, but having a big super fiend would be kinda cool. I had the idea that the Tyranids were created by the last of the old ones to correct the mistakes made by their upstart children, to start again and wipe the slate clean.

This theory...this theory amazes me. It could be a possibility but no way to know for sure unless we capture ALL the story writers at GW and force the answer out of them or for them to publish it.
This theory is VERY probable IMHO