Why is the Imperial Guard often looked down on? and on top of that most the Space Marine players that I've met over the years think the SM outnumber the Imperial Guard on a galactic scale.
Now anyone that knows fluff knows that's totally the other way around.

I know that there is the sort of joking fued between the Guard and Marines like the US Army and USMC, but it always seems that everyone looks down on the Guard other than the people that Ally with them or Play them.

I'm assuming it's because they're a lot less elite than SM. Perhaps it's because individually they die so quickly. Though at our club, they're not particularly looked down on at all.

Imperial guard have the image of cannon fodder, which is usually not held in high respect. Though Stalin staid that quantity has its own quality.

CommissarCandlestick wrote:I'm assuming it's because they're a lot less elite than SM. Perhaps it's because individually they die so quickly. Though at our club, they're not particularly looked down on at all.

That makes sense but I still wouldn't see why they are looked down on as both a military machine and brave soldiers, I understand the life expectancy portion, but I see the Guardsmen as braver lads than the SMs as they have a flak vest while the Marines have Power Armour.

Field Marshall Terry wrote:... I see the Guardsmen as braver lads than the SMs as they have a flak vest while the Marines have Power Armour.

That's been pointed out in a lot of the Black Library novels. The Guardsmen are looked down on in the fluff because they are so dispossible, they are looked down on in the boardgame because lots of little kiddies love their Space Puppies and Emo-Angels until they see the IG player having to borrow dice from people to roll the number of wounds they are about to inflict on their precious Marines. Yes even with a BS: 3 before considering ordinance the IG are the hardest hitting army in the game.

I always saw IG as utterly hardcore. What's 10 Grey Hunters compared to 55 conscripts?

I love the IG from a fluff standpoint, just a random soldier scared for his life still manning up enough to fight in the face of terror itself (seriously, when you consider some of the gak that the Warp throws out, the statement is quite literal).

The only thing that stops me from collecting an IG army (KRIEG! KRIEG! KRIEG!) is that I just can't get around to painting five million men (especially since I like to spend a long time on each model).

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I always saw IG as utterly hardcore. What's 10 Grey Hunters compared to 55 conscripts?

Conscripts are pathetic... seriously they will run at anything unless they have a commissar or something similar.

purplefood wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I always saw IG as utterly hardcore. What's 10 Grey Hunters compared to 55 conscripts?

Conscripts are pathetic... seriously they will run at anything unless they have a commissar or something similar.

I take it you've never been on the receiving end of a mass of conscripts then? Their pathetic statline is more than reinforced by the hundreds of them trying to kill you.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I always saw IG as utterly hardcore. What's 10 Grey Hunters compared to 55 conscripts?

Conscripts are pathetic... seriously they will run at anything unless they have a commissar or something similar.

I take it you've never been on the receiving end of a mass of conscripts then? Their pathetic statline is more than reinforced by the hundreds of them trying to kill you.

Only once when a Lone Wolf charged them before they could fire at anything. They took 2 casualties failed their Ld and were run down. Although the IG player only had the 1 unit of 50 so i suppose having 4+ units of 50 would do a bit more damage... still they are fun.

You've had better luck than I, sir. I doff my hat to you.

Part of the problem is that in the scale of tabletop 40K, the Imperial Guard represent a particular niche. They (by and large) represent a very "baseline" force.

Few armies are judged by their tanks (almost no one goes "Space Marines are very tough because Land Raiders are tough"). The guardsman basically defines the 'average' combatant. The only things weaker than them are the weakest of troops (Grots, etc), and everything else is distinguished by how it exceeds the Imperial Guardsman (Eldar aren't stronger, but they are faster, and more skillful, etc. Orks aren't faster, but they are tougher, etc.).

The most impressive warmaking capacities of the Imperial Guard simply don't get seen on the 40K tabletop (in Warhammer 40K, at least). You aren't going to see artillery lobbing shells from kilometers away pounding an entire city into rubble. You aren't going to see thousands (or tens of thousands) of troops deployed at once. You aren't going to see massive regiments of super-heavy tanks grinding across a battlefront. The aspect of the Guard you do see in the game is small squad/company based actions, where the individual guardsmen are simply not impressive.

Similarly, the Imperial Navy almost certainly kills more of the enemy than the Imperial Guard, Titan Legions, and Astartes combined, but they hardly even are mentioned in the Warhammer 40K tabletop game. Sure, their orbital bombardments can simply destroy all life on a planet, but that doesn't make the lone Naval Officer in your Guard force look impressive.

I think they are looked down on because the marines see them as less loyal (*caugh*caugh* Horus Heresy) and disposable. But like its been pointed out many times, Guardsmen are regular men in a galaxy of super human warriors and alien terrors. Yet we still stand there smiling with our flak armor and flash lights

They are looked down upon because they smoke lho sticks.

They're not looked down upon where I play in game or in fluff. We love the guard

Fluff: I don't think they are looked down upon. They are glorified so that the average Joe Citizen doesn't mind as much when he gets "The Letter."

Tabletop: Lolwhut?

IG are one of the more brutal armies out there when played correctly.

Da Butcha wrote:Part of the problem is that in the scale of tabletop 40K, the Imperial Guard represent a particular niche. They (by and large) represent a very "baseline" force.

Few armies are judged by their tanks (almost no one goes "Space Marines are very tough because Land Raiders are tough"). The guardsman basically defines the 'average' combatant. The only things weaker than them are the weakest of troops (Grots, etc), and everything else is distinguished by how it exceeds the Imperial Guardsman (Eldar aren't stronger, but they are faster, and more skillful, etc. Orks aren't faster, but they are tougher, etc.).

The most impressive warmaking capacities of the Imperial Guard simply don't get seen on the 40K tabletop (in Warhammer 40K, at least). You aren't going to see artillery lobbing shells from kilometers away pounding an entire city into rubble. You aren't going to see thousands (or tens of thousands) of troops deployed at once. You aren't going to see massive regiments of super-heavy tanks grinding across a battlefront. The aspect of the Guard you do see in the game is small squad/company based actions, where the individual guardsmen are simply not impressive.

Similarly, the Imperial Navy almost certainly kills more of the enemy than the Imperial Guard, Titan Legions, and Astartes combined, but they hardly even are mentioned in the Warhammer 40K tabletop game. Sure, their orbital bombardments can simply destroy all life on a planet, but that doesn't make the lone Naval Officer in your Guard force look impressive.

That pretty much answers my question, someone mentioned something about Space Marines earlier, we have a few SM players at our store that are constantly giving both myself and a friend of mine crap for playing Guard, everytime we try to explain to them the significance both in Fluff and Tabletop (customization/colour schemes whatever) they act as if we're stupid because we don't play Space Marines.

I just wondered if it's like that at other places and why people think that. I guess in the big picture yeah, Guard are weak but it just bugs the crap out of me when I see people rip Guard for not being up to par on what they expect from a Space Marine.

Tabletop: Lolwhut?

IG are one of the more brutal armies out there when played correctly.

It's all in the orders baby... "I'm going to issue ULTRA SHOOTY LAZOR OF DEATH to this 50 man Conscript unit here, all their weapons are now Assault 2, twin linked, and your Armor is now a 6+. Yay! It passed..."

Field Marshall Terry wrote:

Da Butcha wrote:Part of the problem is that in the scale of tabletop 40K, the Imperial Guard represent a particular niche. They (by and large) represent a very "baseline" force.

Few armies are judged by their tanks (almost no one goes "Space Marines are very tough because Land Raiders are tough"). The guardsman basically defines the 'average' combatant. The only things weaker than them are the weakest of troops (Grots, etc), and everything else is distinguished by how it exceeds the Imperial Guardsman (Eldar aren't stronger, but they are faster, and more skillful, etc. Orks aren't faster, but they are tougher, etc.).

The most impressive warmaking capacities of the Imperial Guard simply don't get seen on the 40K tabletop (in Warhammer 40K, at least). You aren't going to see artillery lobbing shells from kilometers away pounding an entire city into rubble. You aren't going to see thousands (or tens of thousands) of troops deployed at once. You aren't going to see massive regiments of super-heavy tanks grinding across a battlefront. The aspect of the Guard you do see in the game is small squad/company based actions, where the individual guardsmen are simply not impressive.

Similarly, the Imperial Navy almost certainly kills more of the enemy than the Imperial Guard, Titan Legions, and Astartes combined, but they hardly even are mentioned in the Warhammer 40K tabletop game. Sure, their orbital bombardments can simply destroy all life on a planet, but that doesn't make the lone Naval Officer in your Guard force look impressive.

That pretty much answers my question, someone mentioned something about Space Marines earlier, we have a few SM players at our store that are constantly giving both myself and a friend of mine crap for playing Guard, everytime we try to explain to them the significance both in Fluff and Tabletop (customization/colour schemes whatever) they act as if we're stupid because we don't play Space Marines.

I just wondered if it's like that at other places and why people think that. I guess in the big picture yeah, Guard are weak but it just bugs the crap out of me when I see people rip Guard for not being up to par on what they expect from a Space Marine.

Use your IG to rain heavy fire down upon the SM, they will stop talking as by turn 3 they have nothing on the board. SM don't hold up well when they roll fist full of dice for there armor saves. IG can table any army if you build the list right, now I'm no where near a WAAC player, but SM player need to be knocked down a page every so othen.

I didn't realised they were looked down upon I know everyone takes the piss out of the maglites they use as weapons but no one like 30 of them rapid firing 3 shots each with orders at their squads.

Anyone that thinks SM outnumber IG is just ignorant of the fluff.

Must be a local thing. Probably pretty young players, too. IG far surpass SMs in numbers- the Imperium can throw millions at them into a battle front. However, a SM chaper is an elite strike force. Think scalpel and hammer.

Individual bravery is apples and oranges. SM are genetically engineered super soldiers with a faith that borders on fanaticism. IG can range from unfailingly loyal, to traitorous cowards serving only under threat of execution.

On the table top, both can be brutal, or incompetent. Anyone who does not respect the potential threat of either is a fool.

In the fluff the Imperial Guard does the majority of fighting.
Space Marines post-heresy launch raids and decapitate enemy leadership,before that they were the sledgehammer in the Great Crusade.
Besides the IG has awesome super-heavy tanks.

Why is the Imperial Guard often looked down on?

Some people likes heroes , and SM are certainly portrayed as a whole army full of heroes

and on top of that most the Space Marine players that I've met over the years think the SM outnumber the Imperial Guard on a galactic scale.

A good explanation might be , they are subconsciously judged it via the number of SM players they bump into T-T

I know that there is the sort of joking fued between the Guard and Marines like the US Army and USMC, but it always seems that everyone looks down on the Guard other than the people that Ally with them or Play them.

This is true , but i see it as maturity level. Ever see those starcraft terran marine vs GW space marine threads? , it display the same type of mentality.

I look down on the space marines, not the guard. Not just because I play Guard, I hate space marines.

if they say a space marine is worth a hundred guards, let them fight eachother

a space marine vs 100 guardsmen.

...

Lets see who 'll win.

Monster Rain wrote:IG are one of the more brutal armies out there when played correctly.

Yep so true, just remember to never get army list ideas from WD battle reports. back when the eye of terror codex came out my local GW did a comp to see which army could last the longest against and army of plague zombies, guard won hands down, its the 50+ shots per troop choice that does it.

I play relictors not because space marines are better but because i like the chapter's (well the remnants of it) fluff and i can't bear to buy and paint the models needed for a single guard troop choice let alone an army.

..No..No one does that unless they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

Most of the forces in the 40K universe are Space Marines.

They have an average height of about 10 feet, so naturally they look down on IG who are under six feet.

Kilkrazy wrote:Most of the forces in the 40K universe are Space Marines.

They have an average height of about 10 feet, so naturally they look down on IG who are under six feet.

I see what you did there

Besides... Leman Russes, people. Find me a more awesome utility tank. Seriously, if there is one in 40K, then I will immediately begin preparations to play that army.

Land Raider is a good one.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Besides... Leman Russes, people. Find me a more awesome utility tank. Seriously, if there is one in 40K, then I will immediately begin preparations to play that army.

True I was thinking hammerhead...But NO, obviously not

Oh, the Hammerhead's nice, but it doesn't have that boxy "come-at-me-bro" aesthetic that the Leman Russ has.

Really? I don't know anyone that looks down upon IG, Forum-wise and in real life. You cannot take down an IG armor company with another armor company, and they also have NUKES (Death Strike) for 160 pts. Sure, Daemon Hunters have Orbital Strike, for 70 pts, but no one knows if it's going to be in 5th Ed. And also, IG will outnumber any army, except maybe Orks and Tyranids. Plus you can take the Penal Squads of Lol, 1 squad of 50 Conscripts, and in Apoc, you have BANEBLADES. I repeat: BANEBLADES.

IG are the backbone of the Imperium. They're the ones that do most of the work and without them, the Imperium would fall really quickly.

But, they're not the elite-awesome guys. Space Marines get to run around in badass power armor and shoot grendades. IG just can't meet that level of coolness.

It's like how Jedi in the clone wars get all the attention, even though the Clone Troopers are doing all the work. Coolness > Usefullness

Trust me, I play Eldar. So even when I'm crushing a SM/IG/Nid/Ork player, I have to hear about how girly my troops are. People make fun of your army to balance out the fact that you're winning.

I think they may have been looked down on irl because of the bandwagon effect, and the power they could bring to the table. For a while everytime someone rolled up with an IG army you would hear heavy sighs ripple outward from the player as he opened his case. Fortunately this is no longer true in many places.

Samus_aran115 wrote:..No..No one does that unless they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

You mean getting army lists from White Dwarf, I take it?


My guess as to why Imperial Guardsmen are looked down upon in certain groups might be because of how frequently Imperial Guardsmen may take casualties in a single round of assault/shooting/whatever. Or, perhaps, it may be because they may not be represented well enough on the table; as Da Butcha wrote, we don't ever see the Imperial Navy coming in and blowing the hell out of the place unfortunatly.

I have to admit, I did look down on Imperial Guardsmen when I first started. Why, it is beyond me. Playing them now is just fantastic, and am certainly not going to switch over to any other army in the near future.

Or something. I was trying to make a fine point, but I believe I lost it trying to make a semi-coherent post that defiantly sounded better in the head.

Wow , that was a lot of feedback in a very short time.
The SM players are high schoolers I think, idk for sure but they're not too popular with the other players in the club either (mainly our Eldar Player) so it's probably the whole coolness > usefullness as was stated above. I will admit I used to get ticked off all the time when they'd make comments about our armies being dumb and weak, but I've learned just to "zone it out" when they start talking.

I was just wondering if it was like that at other places, as now it seems to be the guys that are new and are all about the whole superhuman astartes stuff and are a bit ignorant to fluff; as I spotted a few Marine players in here saying Guard were pretty cool/decent.
I'm not new to Guard for those of you that might think so, I've been playing since 2007, but I just never really thought about it 'till I recently watched a B.R. on Youtube.

If anything it could be because even in their own codex they get their butts kicked.

I do not see them looked down upon too often, though. They are a mean force on the table.

Grakmar wrote:IG are the backbone of the Imperium. They're the ones that do most of the work and without them, the Imperium would fall really quickly.

But, they're not the elite-awesome guys. Space Marines get to run around in badass power armor and shoot grendades. IG just can't meet that level of coolness.

It's like how Jedi in the clone wars get all the attention, even though the Clone Troopers are doing all the work. Coolness > Usefullness

Trust me, I play Eldar. So even when I'm crushing a SM/IG/Nid/Ork player, I have to hear about how girly my troops are. People make fun of your army to balance out the fact that you're winning.

Look it's not MY fault your girly Eldar stomp my armies...

Although what Grak said is the truth.

Lucid wrote:I think they may have been looked down on irl because of the bandwagon effect, and the power they could bring to the table. For a while everytime someone rolled up with an IG army you would hear heavy sighs ripple outward from the player as he opened his case. Fortunately this is no longer true in many places.

I like going against IG, no matter what I'm playing with myself. They're one of the few armies that actually makes sense against whatever you play

I can vastly appreciate a well painted IG army too. I like nothing more than perfectly painted tanks.

I use to be a huge SM fan, Until I started an IG army. Yes there not the super elite but when a unit 50 bust out the first rank fire second rank fire at 12" . about 145 shots drop anything infanty. With the large high st. blasts that pop most tanks they are just the thing people under-estimate

The Imperial Guard is a stronger military machine than the Adeptus Astartes. Almost no Astartes fprce can put out the quantity of fire that a standard deployment of Guard can. It might be less accurate, but there's a crapton more of it.

\/ insert people whining about how I'm supposedly a marine bashing hater here \/

Well in the fluff they have BILLIONS of people, SM have much less. I think they can be looked down on in the fact they dont seem advanced. They are, but at first glance (except for space fleets) they look like our real world in a couple of decades.

There are basically one million guardsmen for every space marine.

The Imperial Guard are looked down upon because they can never be Ultramarines.

Like many have said, IG can be a real power house on the table simply because of the numbers of dice they make you roll in armour saves - I've seen entire squads of Terminators drowned under torrents of lasfire in a single turn of shooting.

I'd ally with my flgs's infantry-based IG player any day of the week, just so he wasn't shooting at me!

Fluff-wise, I absolutely love reading about the Imperial Guard. A simple man, armed with nothing but a flak vest and a lasgun going against some of the most brutal terrors the 41st Millennium throws at them. All they have is their lousy equipment, their tanks, and each other. That just smacks of courage right there. Oh sure, the Space Marines "know no fear," they have super cool power armor and freakin' grenade launchers as a standard weapon. They even get all the super cool equipment, the best of the best vehicles, blah blah blah.

I will say right now that I am a Space Marine player (and a Chaos Marine player ), but I have more respect for the Guard than any other race in all of 40k, simply because of what I stated above.

Game-wise, I almost fear playing against the Imperial Guard. They are just NASTY. I played against a Guard player. Turn 1, tanks blew holes into all of my tanks. Turn 2, Valkyries come in and drop veterans with meltaguns and finish off my tanks. Turn 3, crap loads of lasgun fire rip apart my Marines. Turn 4, my army is utterly annihilated, no survivors whatsoever. And that was when I was doing my absolute best at the game! I was doing great! And I got slaughtered by the Guard in 4 turns. That was just brutal.

I actually intend to start a Guard army very soon. As soon as I get all my new goodies for Christmas (thank you mom and dad ), I'm buildin' a Guard force. They rock!

I agree the fluff of the IG is very inteesting, but I disagree witht the bravery thing a bit. Arent the IG conscripted? I think i heard that from someone, could be wrong though. I agree for the simple fact that I would not want to fight ANY of the races in the 40k universe with a lasgun. So I doubt they voluntarily join up. IMO

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I agree the fluff of the IG is very inteesting, but I disagree witht the bravery thing a bit. Arent the IG conscripted? I think i heard that from someone, could be wrong though. I agree for the simple fact that I would not want to fight ANY of the races in the 40k universe with a lasgun. So I doubt they voluntarily join up. IMO

Many planets have conscription, but many also have voluntary service as well. Additionally, there are plenty of worlds that consider it a high honour to be a member of the Imperial Guard.

O ok, I just went with my own cowardice I guess haha. I would not join up, they woulkd have to drag me to the Cadian gate!

I love the IG, much like the way I love my cannon fodder!
kidding!

Fluff wise, I don't really like the IG, feel like they try to make the everyman into a SM. I like SM better, huge hulking bad ass soldiers... or maybe I'm just compensating... meh...

Honestly, this is an opinion from a person who has yet to by an army when the checks from my slave duties at the local forge world clear. But knowing games in general, it's wise to NOT underestimate the weakest link, cuz if you get enough of them, they can crush you, or just break, and stab you to death.

These players at your local shop really need to be taken down. I love my SM, and I don't think this has anything to do with an IG SM rivalry, but I do know bullies when I see them. Just keep your cool and catch them with their pants down, then they'll see who's boss...

Melissia wrote:The Imperial Guard is a stronger military machine than the Adeptus Astartes. Almost no Astartes fprce can put out the quantity of fire that a standard deployment of Guard can. It might be less accurate, but there's a crapton more of it.

\/ insert people whining about how I'm supposedly a marine bashing hater here \/

And the tanks. SM got nuthin' on the IG tanks. Well, except the Land Raider, maybe.

I have enourmous respect for IG tanks, and large amounts of annoyance when they decimate my genestealers from halfway across the bored. They are awesome machines that will break the back of any army.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Oh, the Hammerhead's nice, but it doesn't have that boxy "come-at-me-bro" aesthetic that the Leman Russ has.

Fafnir wrote:There are basically one million guardsmen for every space marine.

Actually, far, far more than that. The various fluff and the newest IG codex gives us "billions" of regiments. Assuming that plural "billions" simply means at most 2 billion (the lowest number that can be classified as multiples of a billion), with an average regiment size being that of the Cadian 8th at 8,000 strong, it means there are 16,000,000,000,000 Guardsmen, or about 1 Space Marine for every 16,000,000 Guardsmen (assuming 1,000 Chapters of 1,000 Space Marines=1 Million Space Marines).

Then, using the SM codex derived equivalency of 1 Space Marine for every ten or twelve other troops (lets use a dozen here just to stay on the side of the SM's, and assuming that is a direct combat ratio not already taking SM's mobility force multipliers into account, even though doing so would make this whole thing seem more realistic in regards to table performance), then that means the massed might of the *entirety* of the Adeptus Astartes represents about 0.000075% of the fighting strength of the Imperial Guard, in other words meaning that the Space Marines as a whole, even if you multiplied their effect by a thousand or even ten thousand, really contribute no meaningful strength to the Imperium that isn't going to be hidden by slight changes in weekly IG recruitment.


This whole thing gets sillier if you assume that "billions" means more than just 2 billion, and/or if you see that 1SM=12 others as already taking into account their inherent force multipliers. This is why GW really should learn to understand the numbers they put out there and why it is absurd to see Marines having the effect that they do in the game universe. Using the numbers given in the SM codex, it'd mean the Siege of Vraks alone would have consumed the entirety of the Space Marines given the IG's 14 million casualties (and interestingly enough no Astartes would engage initially, and even when they did it was only in extremely limited actions resulting in extreme casualties and the death of about a third of the Dark Angels chapter IIRC, or after the enemies backs had been broken).


EDIT: Also remember that technically most IG regiments are the top performing 10% of their planets PDF forces or recruit intake (conscripts generally being recruits pressed into early service as a result of dire emergency need), meaning that whatever numbers you see above, there's about 10x that in PDF forces. Not to mention private forces, Stormtrooper Regiments, Rogue Trader forces, and other such things that often are seen on the same level and used in many of the same situations as the IG.

Thats alot of flashlights!

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Oh, the Hammerhead's nice, but it doesn't have that boxy "come-at-me-bro" aesthetic that the Leman Russ has.

Niiiiiiiccccceeeeee

Vaktathi wrote:

Fafnir wrote:There are basically one million guardsmen for every space marine.

Actually, far, far more than that. The various fluff and the newest IG codex gives us "billions" of regiments. Assuming that plural "billions" simply means at most 2 billion (the lowest number that can be classified as multiples of a billion), with an average regiment size being that of the Cadian 8th at 8,000 strong, it means there are 16,000,000,000,000 Guardsmen, or about 1 Space Marine for every 16,000,000 Guardsmen (assuming 1,000 Chapters of 1,000 Space Marines=1 Million Space Marines).

Then, using the SM codex derived equivalency of 1 Space Marine for every ten or twelve other troops (lets use a dozen here just to stay on the side of the SM's, and assuming that is a direct combat ratio not already taking SM's mobility force multipliers into account, even though doing so would make this whole thing seem more realistic in regards to table performance), then that means the massed might of the *entirety* of the Adeptus Astartes represents about 0.000075% of the fighting strength of the Imperial Guard, in other words meaning that the Space Marines as a whole, even if you multiplied their effect by a thousand or even ten thousand, really contribute no meaningful strength to the Imperium that isn't going to be hidden by slight changes in weekly IG recruitment.


This whole thing gets sillier if you assume that "billions" means more than just 2 billion, and/or if you see that 1SM=12 others as already taking into account their inherent force multipliers. This is why GW really should learn to understand the numbers they put out there and why it is absurd to see Marines having the effect that they do in the game universe. Using the numbers given in the SM codex, it'd mean the Siege of Vraks alone would have consumed the entirety of the Space Marines given the IG's 14 million casualties (and interestingly enough no Astartes would engage initially, and even when they did it was only in extremely limited actions resulting in extreme casualties and the death of about a third of the Dark Angels chapter IIRC, or after the enemies backs had been broken).


EDIT: Also remember that technically most IG regiments are the top performing 10% of their planets PDF forces or recruit intake (conscripts generally being recruits pressed into early service as a result of dire emergency need), meaning that whatever numbers you see above, there's about 10x that in PDF forces. Not to mention private forces, Stormtrooper Regiments, Rogue Trader forces, and other such things that often are seen on the same level and used in many of the same situations as the IG.

That's a LOT of tax payers' Money, and by a lot, I mean a ton
I try not to be a jerk when I play them, but recently they've been getting worse than usual so, I'll probably pull a -feth-you-and-your-SM!!!!!! list on them so they lay off again, as thats what our Eldar Player did once and they laid off for a while, now they say Eldar are overpowered, which we all kinda laugh at this. BUT IT NEVER ENDS!!!!!

Vaktathi wrote:

Fafnir wrote:There are basically one million guardsmen for every space marine.

Actually, far, far more than that. The various fluff and the newest IG codex gives us "billions" of regiments. Assuming that plural "billions" simply means at most 2 billion (the lowest number that can be classified as multiples of a billion), with an average regiment size being that of the Cadian 8th at 8,000 strong, it means there are 16,000,000,000,000 Guardsmen, or about 1 Space Marine for every 16,000,000 Guardsmen (assuming 1,000 Chapters of 1,000 Space Marines=1 Million Space Marines).

Then, using the SM codex derived equivalency of 1 Space Marine for every ten or twelve other troops (lets use a dozen here just to stay on the side of the SM's, and assuming that is a direct combat ratio not already taking SM's mobility force multipliers into account, even though doing so would make this whole thing seem more realistic in regards to table performance), then that means the massed might of the *entirety* of the Adeptus Astartes represents about 0.000075% of the fighting strength of the Imperial Guard, in other words meaning that the Space Marines as a whole, even if you multiplied their effect by a thousand or even ten thousand, really contribute no meaningful strength to the Imperium that isn't going to be hidden by slight changes in weekly IG recruitment.

See, this is what I meant when I kept saying that the Imperium really could survive if Space Marines suddenly disappeared or were wiped out.

exactly, the Space Marines are as elite as the Inquisition in a sense, they are the fine scalpel with which the Imperium can swiftly end a conflict before it ever starts (ideally). The Imperial Guard, aka "the Hammer of the Emperor" are the permanent plan B of the Imperium. If at first you don't succeed, throw a million guardsmen at it.

Field Marshall Terry wrote:Why is the Imperial Guard often looked down on? and on top of that most the Space Marine players that I've met over the years think the SM outnumber the Imperial Guard on a galactic scale.
Now anyone that knows fluff knows that's totally the other way around.

I know that there is the sort of joking fued between the Guard and Marines like the US Army and USMC, but it always seems that everyone looks down on the Guard other than the people that Ally with them or Play them.

I just don't think the IG feels very 40K.

40K is about genetically engineered supersoldiers charging head-first with their chainswords into jetbike-riding wizard-elves, mushroom-grown space-hooligans on wrecking-ball-toting buggies, tentacle-wielding evil-engineered supersoldiers from the netherrealm or egyptian terminator-robots from before time.

If I wan't to play more "realistic" armies with an aesthetic akin to real armies, I'd play FoW or some such.

I can see why GW added the IG (long before FoW was ever made) to tap into the huge market of historical wargamers, military-afficiandos and wanna-be-navy-seals. But still, IG armies always feel like they "ended up in the wrong movie". They are about as fitting as Rambo walking onto a scene in Star Wars and shooting away with a machine gun. I like Rambo, don't get me wrong, but in its own place.

I wish the threadheads would stay out of my space-fantasy. It's not like I show up with a Nid army to a FoW-game either.

The IG are looked down upon sometimes because some of their troops will turn and run in battle to be shot by their commander for being cowards or they will do things like the blood angels sometimes and not worry abut collateral damage or even in extreme examples will commit genocide but the IG should not be looked down upon they are the backbone of the IoM the SM are there to kill things normal humans should not have to deal with including the IG but in my opinion they are very badass

Zweischneid wrote:

Field Marshall Terry wrote:Why is the Imperial Guard often looked down on? and on top of that most the Space Marine players that I've met over the years think the SM outnumber the Imperial Guard on a galactic scale.
Now anyone that knows fluff knows that's totally the other way around.

I know that there is the sort of joking fued between the Guard and Marines like the US Army and USMC, but it always seems that everyone looks down on the Guard other than the people that Ally with them or Play them.

I just don't think the IG feels very 40K.

40K is about genetically engineered supersoldiers charging head-first with their chainswords into jetbike-riding wizard-elves, mushroom-grown space-hooligans on wrecking-ball-toting buggies, tentacle-wielding evil-engineered supersoldiers from the netherrealm or egyptian terminator-robots from before time.

If I wan't to play more "realistic" armies with an aesthetic akin to real armies, I'd play FoW or some such.

I can see why GW added the IG (long before FoW was ever made) to tap into the huge market of historical wargamers, military-afficiandos and wanna-be-navy-seals. But still, IG armies always feel like they "ended up in the wrong movie". They are about as fitting as Rambo walking onto a scene in Star Wars and shooting away with a machine gun. I like Rambo, don't get me wrong, but in its own place.

I wish the threadheads would stay out of my space-fantasy. It's not like I show up with a Nid army to a FoW-game either.

I think masses of ill-equipped cannon fodder is very grim-dark, especially given their real-life inspiration.

IG are Human Every thing eles is not.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Oh, the Hammerhead's nice, but it doesn't have that boxy "come-at-me-bro" aesthetic that the Leman Russ has.

^this^ = WIN!

Zweischneid wrote:I just don't think the IG feels very 40K.

It's Space Marines that aren't 40k.

40k is about the despair of humans desperately fighting an endless horde of monstrous barbarians and knowing that when you kill one, a dozen more will come a few months later on. 40k is about a planet fending off an unending ravenous swarm of beasts that know neither pain nor fear. 40k is about the insidious corruption from within and beyond; even as humanity struggles to survive against the xenos they must also contend with traitors from within and the daemons from beyond. 40k is about humanity fighting against the will of a superior alien race, pitching massed tracked tanks against superadvanced, insanely maneuverable hovercraft. 40k is about the struggle of humanity to survive in a galaxy of fearsome, loathsome creatures that would gladly destroy us, consume us, or corrupt us into something far less than human.

Space Marines aren't even human. They don't despair, they don't feel fear. Space Marines aren't really grimdark.

The Imperial Guard, however... is entirely about human struggle and the will to win, even if it means a great deal of us have to die. We will fight, we will survive, grimly holding on to everything that is good about humanity amidst the darkness of an unforgiving galaxy populated by laughing, uncaring gods.

Actually Deathwatch RPG says that SMs understand and experience fear,but they control it and channel it to a much greater degree than any normal man,but again that is FFG fluff(height of the marines in their RPG is slightly over 2.1 m).

I dont know what your talking about. I play SM and LOVE IG. The only thing that stops me from playing them is cost. If I had a thousand dollars I would make a massive IG army.

Zweischneid wrote:

Field Marshall Terry wrote:Why is the Imperial Guard often looked down on? and on top of that most the Space Marine players that I've met over the years think the SM outnumber the Imperial Guard on a galactic scale.
Now anyone that knows fluff knows that's totally the other way around.

I know that there is the sort of joking fued between the Guard and Marines like the US Army and USMC, but it always seems that everyone looks down on the Guard other than the people that Ally with them or Play them.

I just don't think the IG feels very 40K.

40K is about genetically engineered supersoldiers charging head-first with their chainswords into jetbike-riding wizard-elves, mushroom-grown space-hooligans on wrecking-ball-toting buggies, tentacle-wielding evil-engineered supersoldiers from the netherrealm or egyptian terminator-robots from before time.

If I wan't to play more "realistic" armies with an aesthetic akin to real armies, I'd play FoW or some such.

I can see why GW added the IG (long before FoW was ever made) to tap into the huge market of historical wargamers, military-afficiandos and wanna-be-navy-seals. But still, IG armies always feel like they "ended up in the wrong movie". They are about as fitting as Rambo walking onto a scene in Star Wars and shooting away with a machine gun. I like Rambo, don't get me wrong, but in its own place.

I wish the threadheads would stay out of my space-fantasy. It's not like I show up with a Nid army to a FoW-game either.

The Imperial Guard has been in the game as long as the Space Marines have, and the IG differ far less from their origins than the Space Marines do (SM's in RT were T3 4+sv dudes who only got a 5+sv against a lasgun and Leman Russ was a simple SM Commander, the only difference for guardsmen is that their lasguns had an Armor Save Modifier and they had a 6+ sv instead of a 5+ and they were called the Imperial Army instead of Guard).

I wish the knights of yore would stay out of my scifi setting sometimes.

The IG are a wonderful expression of the 40k universe, and a much better reflection of the Imperium as a whole than the Space Marines could ever dream to be. The IG is a large, unstoppable, immovable, bueraucratic hammer, where stuff happens as a result of actions centuries before and decisions made decades earlier, and billions of lives are lost in paperwork that gets misfiled.

So now this is a IG vs SM thread?

This is a grim dark sci fi. And this is WH40k. I don't understand how one can fit in while the other cannot.

The only thing I don't think fits in, IS ALL THESE HATERS!

and bullies....

What do you mean "now"? It was pretty much always that subject.

It pretty much started out as SM vs IG. The person asked why they were looked down upon and the obvious answer would be because SM are super cool powered armour beasts and IG are guys with flashlights. (Not my opinion I tend to lean toward the guard a bit more). Not to mention I love the fluff of 40k, and Tyranid vs IG stories sound insanely epic, thats why i like them a bit more.

Not trying to bring nids where they dont belong, just explaining my choice of IG.

IG are the normal guys in a world of super warriors.
They are like Batman to Superman.
Batman is much more epic because he doesn't have powers.
IG are heroes in every way that matters. But SM get a higher kill-count/score.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:It pretty much started out as SM vs IG. The person asked why they were looked down upon and the obvious answer would be because SM are super cool powered armour beasts and IG are guys with flashlights. (Not my opinion I tend to lean toward the guard a bit more). Not to mention I love the fluff of 40k, and Tyranid vs IG stories sound insanely epic, thats why i like them a bit more.

Not trying to bring nids where they dont belong, just explaining my choice of IG.

Well one of the memorable moments is when the Commander Cherenkov beats 'Nids by just sending wave of wave guardsmen to die for the lulz.

Well one of the memorable moments is when the Commander Cherenkov beats 'Nids by just sending wave of wave guardsmen to die for the lulz.

haha thats why I love IG vs Tyranid fluff! they throw troops at eachother until one is dead, the thought of how much carnage both sides endure seems so epic. I cant Imagine what the frontlines are like in something like that.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Well one of the memorable moments is when the Commander Cherenkov beats 'Nids by just sending wave of wave guardsmen to die for the lulz.

haha thats why I love IG vs Tyranid fluff! they throw troops at eachother until one is dead, the thought of how much carnage both sides endure seems so epic. I cant Imagine what the frontlines are like in something like that.

I imagine they are mushy...

purplefood wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Well one of the memorable moments is when the Commander Cherenkov beats 'Nids by just sending wave of wave guardsmen to die for the lulz.

haha thats why I love IG vs Tyranid fluff! they throw troops at eachother until one is dead, the thought of how much carnage both sides endure seems so epic. I cant Imagine what the frontlines are like in something like that.

I imagine they are mushy...

And tasty.

Its ther sheer amount of firepower the IG have. You can have 200 infantry for 1000 points, plus the ability to field tanks with every heavy weapon you can think of. Also, most of the tanks are equipped with Ordnance which devastates units in cover and anything with a 3+ save/

SanguinaryGuard wrote:Its ther sheer amount of firepower the IG have. You can have 200 infantry for 1000 points, plus the ability to field tanks with every heavy weapon you can think of. Also, most of the tanks are equipped with Ordnance which devastates units in cover and anything with a 3+ save/

Oh Christ,not the game mechanics.
In fluff IG crushes almost everyone(even more so with the support of the Adeptus Mechanicus).

Well ya, have you ever had a couple million flashlights pointing at you and a couple of friends? Me either but Id imagine its bright and probably painful

I hate that idiotic "flashlight" moniker.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Well ya, have you ever had a couple million flashlights pointing at you and a couple of friends? Me either but Id imagine its bright and probably painful

You mean this picture! http://1d4chan.org/images/f/f3/Guardsmen.jpg
Guardsman is a man, just like you, though he grew up in another culture. He has no millennia-old genetic engineering, no prophetic leader, no miracles of faith. He has his lasgun, his orders, and his fellow soldiers.
Also they have balls of steel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:I hate that idiotic "flashlight" moniker.

Me too,Lasguns is much,much more powerful than flashlight and modern infatry rifle!

You mean this picture! http://1d4chan.org/images/f/f3/Guardsmen.jpg
Guardsman is a man, just like you, though he grew up in another culture. He has no millennia-old genetic engineering, no prophetic leader, no miracles of faith. He has his lasgun, his orders, and his fellow soldiers.
Also they have balls of steel.

Haha thats hilarious! I love the end with the inquisition guy saying we know where you live

sry bout the flashlight comments, I heard the flashlight thing the first day I started tabletop gaming. It was the first insullt I heard of any Army in 40k

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:So now this is a IG vs SM thread?

This is a grim dark sci fi. And this is WH40k. I don't understand how one can fit in while the other cannot.

The only thing I don't think fits in, IS ALL THESE HATERS!

and bullies....

here ya go.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Well ya, have you ever had a couple million flashlights pointing at you and a couple of friends? Me either but Id imagine its bright and probably painful

Irony: Lasguns are powerful enough to burn through a power armoured helmet, if used on the max setting. Not so much a flashlight as the surgical laser of DOOM.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Well ya, have you ever had a couple million flashlights pointing at you and a couple of friends? Me either but Id imagine its bright and probably painful

Irony: Lasguns are powerful enough to burn through a power armoured helmet, if used on the max setting. Not so much a flashlight as the surgical laser of DOOM.

Hotshot you mean.

You know wat? i think that is a much better term for them! thankyou!

IvanTih wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Well ya, have you ever had a couple million flashlights pointing at you and a couple of friends? Me either but Id imagine its bright and probably painful

Irony: Lasguns are powerful enough to burn through a power armoured helmet, if used on the max setting. Not so much a flashlight as the surgical laser of DOOM.

Hotshot you mean.

Depends, some regular lasguns have multiple settings. You get something like 3 shots that could blow a marine's head off. Hotshots have adapted battery cells to allow the user to have more shots, and so aren't quite the same thing.

Fafnir wrote:There are basically one million guardsmen for every space marine.

Oh, far more than that.

Enough that the IG could easily defeat the SMs by simply lying down and dying on top of them. The SM's power and life support would run out before they could tunnel through the colossal mountain of bodies.

If only it were possible to arrange. Nicely Grimdark, I think.

Much like that story in one of the Hunter Quatermain books about the Zulu king who ordered his troops to put out a huge bonfire by jumping into it. And they did.

Ah, yes. Great days, great days! Will we ever see their like again?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Fafnir wrote:There are basically one million guardsmen for every space marine.

Oh, far more than that.

Enough that the IG could easily defeat the SMs by simply lying down and dying on top of them. The SM's power and life support would run out before they could tunnel through the colossal mountain of bodies.

If only it were possible to arrange. Nicely Grimdark, I think.

Much like that story in one of the Hunter Quatermain books about the Zulu king who ordered his troops to put out a huge bonfire by jumping into it. And they did.

Ah, yes. Great days, great days! Will we ever see their like again?

I would pay money to watch that... ahh just imagining it makes me want to make it happen somehow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the Ciaphas Cain novels are my favorite imagining of IG apart from the The First and Only novels.

Brother Heinrich wrote:exactly, the Space Marines are as elite as the Inquisition in a sense, they are the fine scalpel with which the Imperium can swiftly end a conflict before it ever starts (ideally). The Imperial Guard, aka "the Hammer of the Emperor" are the permanent plan B of the Imperium. If at first you don't succeed, throw a million guardsmen at it.

I'd argue the Guard were in fact the plan A, with the marines being the plan "Are they near enough to take part?"

Exactly like the spartan program from halo IMO

I would pay money to watch that... ahh just imagining it makes me want to make it happen somehow.

And you would definitely pay for not lying in the middle of the pile

Brother Heinrich wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:So now this is a IG vs SM thread?

This is a grim dark sci fi. And this is WH40k. I don't understand how one can fit in while the other cannot.

The only thing I don't think fits in, IS ALL THESE HATERS!

and bullies....

here ya go.

My new facebook pic....

I look down at guardsmen... everytime i'm painting mine up

but in all seriousness, the group of guys i game with have a healthy respect for the guard (even though i am probably the first to be actively engaged in creating a guard army)

And besides, if the Warp is the "scariest" thing in the Imperium, then we guardsmen have something even more scary than Daemons, our own Commissars!

The ig are looked down on cus...
1. Loads of sm players out there, far less ig so the opinion is biased
2. When i think ig i think the people who always lose. I dont know why but i just do. Like on the de white dwarf this month they pawn the guard, whenever you have planetstrike pictures the imperial guard are the defenders about to be crushed by the attackers, the diorama at my local gw store is a small number of guard about to be overwhelmed by a horde of tyranids.

When I think IG I think the guys who always win.

My guys.

I dont look down on imperial gaurd,and I am a Marine player in my heart.
but..
I hate them,when i fight them with marines,as its hurt to see your terminators shred apart squad after squad,and the losing 1 or more of
these great heroes,to repeated lasgun fire. I kinda fear them, and in a 6+ player game of apoc,i would possibly make sure to eliminate the
gaurd players first.
BUT
I love them,when playing my nids,they are quite equally fluff-wise and on T-T
Fluff:they both field millions of troops
T-T:they get enormous dice buckets,especially gaurs squads rapid firing with orders,and genestealers in cc
I really respect them,as more than once my marines hit the dirt against them
Best sollution? GW bringing out new starter set,featuring gaurds and some other army (eldar maybe?)
Or just go kicking marine players long enough to bring them back in line

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:So now this is a IG vs SM thread?

This is a grim dark sci fi. And this is WH40k. I don't understand how one can fit in while the other cannot.

The only thing I don't think fits in, IS ALL THESE HATERS!

and bullies....

here ya go.

My new facebook pic....

happy to oblige

I'm nid player I ight be biased, but IG are the Tyranid's main food source when it comes to armies.

I think that this is just GWs characterization of them. They are feared greatly as an army, and rightly so; it is just that they are prime material for a multitude of jokes.

Actually, it's cuz everyone else is jealous.

Well, to be serious: See the first paragraph.

Brother Heinrich wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Brother Heinrich wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:So now this is a IG vs SM thread?

This is a grim dark sci fi. And this is WH40k. I don't understand how one can fit in while the other cannot.

The only thing I don't think fits in, IS ALL THESE HATERS!

and bullies....

here ya go.

My new facebook pic....

happy to oblige

Where'd you get that pic? I have that as a model.

The Guard well they are special. Why? Because they are the Backbone, the Astartes only fight one battle to the guards 1000. The Imperial Guard (don't cruxify me for saying this) lack a certain eliteness or finesse, they are The Emperors Sledgehammer ( not the Emperors Sword in the form of the Astartes). Guard Armies come in many flavours, but their tactics vary little, A static Gunline? A Mobile Mechanised force? A Mass aerial Assault force? They are a Juggernaut of a War Machine and in the hands of a Capable player can smash any army to pieces without barely raising a sweat. I have a lot of love for the guard, the bad reputation comes from those nasty moments when a Tyranid force or World Eater gets amongst your lines and it turns into carnage. That said The Guard have some fantastic units with some really annoying abilities Ogryns can smash even the toughest units (Yup Daemons and Carnifex beware!) The Heavy Artillery is second to none and if you use terrain well and funnel the enemy your Heavy weapons will mince the enemy by sheer volume of fire. When you bring heavy ordance down like the Rain, even astartes go down quickly. AP3 will make Marines run for the hills

The Guard represent us, the mortal, not very special human beings who work to together and with meagre weapons and training face off against the horrific, the long odds of survival and the impossible moral dilemmas. Human courage is an amazing thing and it is only in extreme situations that it comes to the fore. We can all relate to the Guard, but honestly would you like to serve such an organisation? I know I wouldn't. As John Wayne said "Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway". That is why we all mock them, because the poor Guardsmen don't stand a chance and yet there they go off to war........Think of the World War One and I cannot believe all those brave young men who walked calmly into no mans land, to be cut down by machine guns and Artillery.......It is the ordinary doing the extra-ordinary. Think of the Firefighters on 9/11 they knew they had no chance, but they carried on anyway. The Human Spirit, it cannot be truly destroyed, compassion, selflessness, sacrafice and the belief in hope even when it is unwarranted.

I'm nid player I ight be biased, but IG are the Tyranid's main food source when it comes to armies.

Very much so, (in the fluff). But on the tabletop its usually in the IG favor. Tyranid just dont have that "we have billions upon billions of claws and maws waiting to rip you apart'' advantage.

I play the Tyranid to and I love them on the tabletop and in the fluff. Sometimes though the fluff is different from the actual game itself.

Anyways though, back to the point. In the fluff there are billions and billions of Tyranid and ALOT of IG so this make ALOT of biomass.

Well since Space Marines are 10 feet tall, they literally can't help but look down on them.

Monster Rain wrote:Well since Space Marines are 10 feet tall, they literally can't help but look down on them.

It wouldn't kill them to kneel.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Well since Space Marines are 10 feet tall, they literally can't help but look down on them.

It wouldn't kill them to kneel.

Superheavies would cut them to 5 feet.

Yeah, 5 feet under.






see what I did there?

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Oh, the Hammerhead's nice, but it doesn't have that boxy "come-at-me-bro" aesthetic that the Leman Russ has.

Which is funny, since IG commanders can't even take claws

They can in Dawn of War.

Man I wish I was a 10ft SM, I'd make all the haters bow to my superior power! Especially being on a Thunderwolf, man I'd be like 18ft, talk about a small building that's going to rip you in half. No one would say sh**!

lol Ahh...it's good to dream.

Bluntly answering the topic question, because they're guardsmen.

There should be a new codex for the SM basketball chapter! Can you imagine the possibilities!

Yes! 100th post! Welcome to scuttling genestealer!

Ig have crappy guns and some people think they're better than SM just cause of their size. Well if some one had 5000 guardsmen with lasguns that kill about .1 SM and I brought 100 SM that can kill 10 guardsmen with a single bullet, whos better now? Even the SM hate the IG.

ironhand45 wrote:Ig have crappy guns and some people think they're better than SM just cause of their size. Well if some one had 5000 guardsmen with lasguns that kill about .1 SM and I brought 100 SM that can kill 10 guardsmen with a single bullet, whos better now? Even the SM hate the IG.

This post...it is quite ignorant; the IG ARE better than Space Marines because of their size, because with size comes staying power and the ability to actually hold ground rather than perform surgical strikes. And 5000 Guardsmen, let alone veterans or a whole regiment with proper support, would kill 100 Space Marines...unless this is some mary-sue stuff where the marines are ridiculously overdone

Because there's a couple of hundred of them and six and a half million of us.

Guardsmen are common, some people like to think they themselves are elite because they play elite soldier armies, but its not always the case.

In the battle reports in WD it's easy to tailor a guard army to be bettered, thats why they "always lose" so they can push the new shiney army that wouldn't have done half as well as the previous battles list.

ironhand45 wrote:Ig have crappy guns and some people think they're better than SM just cause of their size. Well if some one had 5000 guardsmen with lasguns that kill about .1 SM and I brought 100 SM that can kill 10 guardsmen with a single bullet, whos better now? Even the SM hate the IG.

Huh? Where on earth are you getting those absolutely *ridiculous* numbers? And in what fluff do the SM's hate the IG? Sounds like Fanwank if I've ever seen it.

That said, even at ratio, the massed forces of the Imperial Guard could destroy the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes and not notice the casualties. 5000 guardsmen each killing 0.1 SM's is going to kill 500 Space Marines. 100 Space Marines each killing 10 Guardsmen is going to kill 1000 Guardsmen.

I actually look up to guard and thier players,it takes skill to p
Lay IG.another point is that little 5'9 john smith with a flak jacket and a lasgun sitting in a trench getting shot at by the pure fear of the warp terrors takes b@lls,I look down at these space marines players who say "guard is weeksause,space muhreens is 1337"

You've got to admit that a 10 foot tall walking tank with big ass gun and a bad ass attitude is pretty cool.

Ive never had the opportunity to play guard and I look forward to getting my ass handed to me when I eventually do.

The way I look at it IG could field a leman russ for every SM in the galaxy. Super armor and a boltgun dont mean gak when you get hit by a shell as big as your body.

Jubear wrote:Ive never had the opportunity to play guard and I look forward to getting my ass handed to me when I eventually do.

The way I look at it IG could field a leman russ for every SM in the galaxy. Super armor and a boltgun dont mean gak when you get hit by a shell as big as your body.

I lol'd, I don't mean to stir up arguments about who is better, I was just wondering why it's that way. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion I guess...
but comon, who need's power armour when you've got tanks the size of houses???

If you've read helsreach then you'll see that SM think nothing of the IG and that they can't fight worth anything.

ironhand45 wrote:If you've read helsreach then you'll see that SM think nothing of the IG and that they can't fight worth anything.

Funny how the Imperium would inarguably crumble without those who "can't fight worth anything"

ironhand45 wrote:If you've read helsreach then you'll see that SM think nothing of the IG and that they can't fight worth anything.

Other books say the exact opposite. Uriel Ventris is constantly raving about how much he admires the Guard, and chapters like the Space Wolves and Salamanders are renowned for their admiration of such lowly fighters. Indeed, Logan Grimnar nearly caused a civil war when he discovered what the Inquisition had done to the Steel Legionnaires who had fought alongside them on Armageddon the first time.

It's hard to reconcile the "good guy" actions of the Space Wolves with their psychotic behavior in some of the HH novels.

For the most part, their fluff makes them out to be good guys. It is worth remembering that the jackass-like behaviour we see in the HH novels are told from the perspective of the Thousand Sons, who are understandably pee'd right the feth off at the Wolves for attacking their homeworld.

Leman Russ really did seem like a douche though, by any standard. But then, even though he wasn't polite about it, the Emperor did agree with him...

And you've gotta admit,being able to field 175 models on table is pretty kick@ss.

Sure, guard are guard. They just are bleh in general.


Now, Death Korps on the other hand..

A Black Ram wrote:Sure, guard are guard. They just are bleh in general.


Now, Death Korps on the other hand..

Death Korp are born to die...
Then again so are every other guard regiment.
My favorite thing about IG is the difference in regiments in the fluff.

The IoM would definitely crumble without the IG. There are not enouph space marines to do what the guard do, they feel every casualty. The IG could lose thousands and probably forget to send letters home

Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt somebody have to be genetically superior to survive all it takes to be a SM? If this is the case then this is why the IoM cannot be without the IG.

From a purely fluffy perspective, Imperial Guard clearly have the advantage. The fluff tells us that there are roughly 1000 chapters, each with roughly 1000 Space Marines (there are exceptions, like Black Templars and Space Wolves). The fluff also tells us the Imperium has roughly 1 million worlds. With rough maths we can see that the ratio of SM per Imperial World is 1:1. ONE SM per Imperial planet. Then take into consideration how most Imperial planets conscript thousands or even millions of soldiers into the Guard, and some worlds (Cadia, Krieg, among others) are completely dedicated to raising soldiers of the highest quality. Then we have Forge Worlds, whose quotas (according to Codex: IG) are thousands of vehicles on a DAILY basis. In a pure SM vs IG scenario, one space marine would have to fight thousands, if not millions of guardsmen. I'm pretty sure that even the emperor's finest don't carry that much ammo...

There is nothing finer than several squads of 50+ conscripts being led to victory by a Lord Commissar. NOTHING.

FUUUUDGE! wrote:And you've gotta admit,being able to field 175 models on table is pretty kick@ss.

ONLY 175?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gus_Papas wrote:From a purely fluffy perspective, Imperial Guard clearly have the advantage. The fluff tells us that there are roughly 1000 chapters, each with roughly 1000 Space Marines (there are exceptions, like Black Templars and Space Wolves).

A small note-- there are also many chapters that have less than 1000 Marines, because of casualties. Some chapters are even entirely destroyed.


Hive Worlds tithe off a percent of their population as part of paying taxes. Hive Worlds can have populations in the hundred billions and then some, which means more than a billion soldiers tithed off to the Guard JUST TO PAY TAXES. Nevermind voluntary recruits...

Also, that the guard, whilst they don't get the best equipment ever, are still sufficient to crush almost any threat. I mean, it took Abaddon 13 Black Crusades just to get a foothold on Cadia.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:The IoM would definitely crumble without the IG. There are not enouph space marines to do what the guard do, they feel every casualty. The IG could lose thousands and probably forget to send letters home

Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt somebody have to be genetically superior to survive all it takes to be a SM? If this is the case then this is why the IoM cannot be without the IG.

Most regiments don't bother to send letters home. I think people take it as a given that as soon as you join the guard you aren't coming back.

Crumble?

The Imperium would simply cease to exist without the IG.

Ya I would probably sign up to get off of a hive world lol

Melissia wrote:Crumble?

The Imperium would simply cease to exist without the IG.

This, and then some.

1000000 Space Marines, though scary < TRILLIONS (or more) Guardsmen.

Melissia wrote:A small note-- there are also many chapters that have less than 1000 Marines, because of casualties. Some chapters are even entirely destroyed.

At any gven time, many chapters have well under 1000 marines, and only a very tiny number even have slightly above a thousand. The average number of marine per chapter is well under a thousand.

However, as chapters are destroyed, new ones are created to keep the number up around the 1000 mark. There will always be fewer than a thousand, but rarely far below it.

A reasonable estimate might be that there are 800-850 thouand marines at any given time, I would guess.

This is why they are the sword of the emperor, they are precise killing machines, while the guard are a brute force of destruction with beyond expendable men. The guard keep order and peace and hold the main line when necessary.

Fifty wrote:

Melissia wrote:A small note-- there are also many chapters that have less than 1000 Marines, because of casualties. Some chapters are even entirely destroyed.

At any gven time, many chapters have well under 1000 marines, and only a very tiny number even have slightly above a thousand. The average number of marine per chapter is well under a thousand.

However, as chapters are destroyed, new ones are created to keep the number up around the 1000 mark. There will always be fewer than a thousand, but rarely far below it.

A reasonable estimate might be that there are 800-850 thouand marines at any given time, I would guess.

They're created in batches called foundings IIRC, which happens every X years.

Mr Nobody wrote:Imperial guard have the image of cannon fodder, which is usually not held in high respect. Though Stalin staid that quantity has its own quality.

My favorite Stalin quote in regards to cannon fodder is "A single death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic."

In some Imperial Guard battles, millions of soldiers can die in a single day and no objcetives have been acheived. Space marine players think that kind of thing is pathetic as they can capture a planet and not lose a single soldier(the whole planet thing might be an exagerration but ). I reckon the IG are the best. One of their apocolyptic tanks has a range of 180 inches. Either everything is in range or you have a really, really big table-top.


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xXSir MontyXx wrote:I agree the fluff of the IG is very inteesting, but I disagree witht the bravery thing a bit. Arent the IG conscripted? I think i heard that from someone, could be wrong though. I agree for the simple fact that I would not want to fight ANY of the races in the 40k universe with a lasgun. So I doubt they voluntarily join up. IMO

Many guardsmen are conscripted as tithes, but some volunteer (whiteshields on Cadia) and some Death Korps of Krieg volunteer as they feel ashamed about their planets past

115th Cadian Shock Troops wrote:In some Imperial Guard battles, millions of soldiers can die in a single day and no objcetives have been acheived. Space marine players think that kind of thing is pathetic as they can capture a planet and not lose a single soldier(the whole planet thing might be an exagerration but ). I reckon the IG are the best. One of their apocolyptic tanks has a range of 180 inches. Either everything is in range or you have a really, really big table-top.


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xXSir MontyXx wrote:I agree the fluff of the IG is very inteesting, but I disagree witht the bravery thing a bit. Arent the IG conscripted? I think i heard that from someone, could be wrong though. I agree for the simple fact that I would not want to fight ANY of the races in the 40k universe with a lasgun. So I doubt they voluntarily join up. IMO

Many guardsmen are conscripted as tithes, but some volunteer (whiteshields on Cadia) and some Death Korps of Krieg volunteer as they feel ashamed about their planets past

Yes I have started reading up on the Imperial Guard sense this thread. They are quite interesting, and the battles are insane. I love Tyranid and Imperial Guard conflicts, for the fact of sheer scale and numbers.

Space MArines look down on IG because they are much shorter

I cant understand how anyone could think that space marines outnumber Imperial i mean....... come on seriously the amount of planets the imperial guard that there are is unthinkable

so theres around 1100 total of space marines in each chapter including techmarines and other varitents of space marines and thats about the same size as an Imperial Guard Regiment without taking tanks and others into consideration.

slushy112 wrote:I cant understand how anyone could think that space marines outnumber Imperial i mean....... come on seriously the amount of planets the imperial guard that there are is unthinkable

so theres around 1100 total of space marines in each chapter including techmarines and other varitents of space marines and thats about the same size as an Imperial Guard Regiment without taking tanks and others into consideration.

Most chapters number about 800 marines (Not inc. support and initiates) guard regiments can range from a few hundered to several thousand.

I thought as there is 10 company's in a chapter and averageing 100 marines per company which would equal around 1000 then you got the chapter master, psykers,Captains, Chaplains and tech marines then you got space marines like honour guard and command squads but then it depends on the chapter and wether they stick to the codex astartes as it says here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex_Astartes Then you have also gotta take into consideration if some have sustained heavy loses such as crimson fists.

Fifty wrote:

Melissia wrote:A small note-- there are also many chapters that have less than 1000 Marines, because of casualties. Some chapters are even entirely destroyed.

At any gven time, many chapters have well under 1000 marines, and only a very tiny number even have slightly above a thousand. The average number of marine per chapter is well under a thousand.

However, as chapters are destroyed, new ones are created to keep the number up around the 1000 mark. There will always be fewer than a thousand, but rarely far below it.

A reasonable estimate might be that there are 800-850 thouand marines at any given time, I would guess.

However you forget that the 10th company of Scout recruits has no cap on it. So this number is not particularly accurate. If you left out the 10th company and it's scouts then I would certainly agree with you.

Of course this does not change the fact that the Astarte's are still heavily outnumbered.
I know a few people in my town that use IG and they are the users of tanks.
I think it is one of the appeals of this game that you can have as many army-types as there is and they all have a different style, and I'm referring to the table game not so much as the Black Library stuff, Marines are true Mobile Infantry, the Guard is very much a Mechanized fighting force utilizing Tanks better than any other force, the Tau are probably a close second as they rely on ranged weapons as well.

I think it's too bad if players are looked down upon for their choice of army to field. But with any game you are going to find people who feel that they are right and everyone else is wrong and their squad is the best because, well, because it just is.

slushy112 wrote:I thought as there is 10 company's in a chapter and averageing 100 marines per company which would equal around 1000 then you got the chapter master, psykers,Captains, Chaplains and tech marines then you got space marines like honour guard and command squads but then it depends on the chapter and wether they stick to the codex astartes as it says here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex_Astartes Then you have also gotta take into consideration if some have sustained heavy loses such as crimson fists.

Most have taken losses so each company averages around 80 odd marines at best.
There are a few chapters that have over 1k marines but not many.

purplefood wrote:

slushy112 wrote:I thought as there is 10 company's in a chapter and averageing 100 marines per company which would equal around 1000 then you got the chapter master, psykers,Captains, Chaplains and tech marines then you got space marines like honour guard and command squads but then it depends on the chapter and wether they stick to the codex astartes as it says here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex_Astartes Then you have also gotta take into consideration if some have sustained heavy loses such as crimson fists.

Most have taken losses so each company averages around 80 odd marines at best.
There are a few chapters that have over 1k marines but not many.

I have to agree, this seems a bit more reasonable of a number. However every chapter has its Tech-Marines and Servitors who are not a part of the general fighting force. There are also Articifiers and other non-Astarte members of the chapter as well. So when you start to expand on it, the general fighting force is meant to stand at around a 1000 men, but add in the scouts and all the others and each chapter probably numbers near 2500 individuals when you account for everyone who is involved. After all you need lots of servitors and Techs to maintain the equipment, many artificer to repair or salvage the power armor of a 1000 some soldiers who are actively in the thick of fighting, and then there are no doubt others in the chapter who work as requisitioner's of equipment and supplies for the chapter, then you have the priests and others who maintain the monasteries whether ship based or planet bound and then there are some chapters who are active in planetary governments, consider the need for aids and Ambassadors in those cases. Also consider the Apothecary staff, considering the current SM codex it lists that the Ultramarine second company has one dedicated apothecary yet the chapter has a total of 13.
That page is super go to page 17 in the codex and it tells how many the ultramarines have, its 1700 equarries and servitors.
So a chapter really is more than a 1000 individuals, even with casualties.
But still that is nothing compared to the IG who can send that many to die just as a diversionary force and it's just a drop in the bucket to them.

Yeah which is why i said marines not 'everybody'.

purplefood wrote:Yeah which is why i said marines not 'everybody'.

True, you did and I did agree with you by the way. But I felt compelled to even more fully show how much the IG out numbers the AA after all if the AA has workforce of 1700+ behind the scenes imagine how many the Guard need.

I just dont understand how it is in question at all. The guard have billions and billions of men. THey need it for millions can die in a day. Space marines dont take many casualties at all during missions, for reasons like; power armor, bolt weapons, gene augmentation, extra organs, better personal training. Guard have their natural born grit and their lasgun.

Melissia wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Fafnir wrote:There are basically one million guardsmen for every space marine.

Actually, far, far more than that. The various fluff and the newest IG codex gives us "billions" of regiments. Assuming that plural "billions" simply means at most 2 billion (the lowest number that can be classified as multiples of a billion), with an average regiment size being that of the Cadian 8th at 8,000 strong, it means there are 16,000,000,000,000 Guardsmen, or about 1 Space Marine for every 16,000,000 Guardsmen (assuming 1,000 Chapters of 1,000 Space Marines=1 Million Space Marines).

Then, using the SM codex derived equivalency of 1 Space Marine for every ten or twelve other troops (lets use a dozen here just to stay on the side of the SM's, and assuming that is a direct combat ratio not already taking SM's mobility force multipliers into account, even though doing so would make this whole thing seem more realistic in regards to table performance), then that means the massed might of the *entirety* of the Adeptus Astartes represents about 0.000075% of the fighting strength of the Imperial Guard, in other words meaning that the Space Marines as a whole, even if you multiplied their effect by a thousand or even ten thousand, really contribute no meaningful strength to the Imperium that isn't going to be hidden by slight changes in weekly IG recruitment.

See, this is what I meant when I kept saying that the Imperium really could survive if Space Marines suddenly disappeared or were wiped out.

I'm sorry but i could not just stand by with you saying such a thing.. If it werent for Marines then there would not have been a successful Great Crusade, The Imperium Would not have been made, and 40k Universe wouldn't even exist.. I think were all missing something here.. It's called Chaos.. And Chaos will make even the bravest Guardsmen piss his pants.. The Imperium would not survive without SM as it would not survive without the Imperial Guard for the needed man power must be there to hold up all parts of the Imperium.. But with SM comes the Grey Knights.. The only Humans capable of holding their own against deamons and such.. If it werent for the UltraMarines the eastern part of the Imperium would be run over by Nids or Tau.. Without the sacrafice of the entire Astral Knights Chapter the entire Danorra system would be annihalated by Necrons... The entire fluff behind SM have many things like these... Don't get me wrong, i have much respect for guard on the table, but fluff wise not so much.. Guard might be the Hammer but without marines delivering a wounding punch in the enemy, guard would just keep sending more into the meat grinder until finally there will be too much gore for the hammer to swing.. Tabletop wise they do themselves just with their versitile tanks and screaming artillery.. Fluff wise they make it so an average Guardsmen can kill 3 Chaos Marines with just a knife and thats just not to be.. And lets not forget the DeathWatch veterans who hold dangerous Xenos at bay all throughout the Imperium.. So all in all Guard have their uses.. They have their strengths.. And used correctly can take on even the most powerful Marine Armies on the Table.. But in real 40k fluff.. Marines dominate guard..


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I also think Guard is looked down upon becuz they follow orders from their commandersand the high lords of terra, they arn't allowed to make their own plans of attack or where they can go, the average guard's life is practically meaningless to higher powers.. A Marine doesn't have these restrictions or problems.. To a Chapter every Marines life is meaningful.. Even the neophytes lives are held in regard.. Chapters follow their own agendas.. Their own plans.. They donot have to be told what to do by any other power.. They are free..

way back in the day, the circle i was playing in HATED IG. Not because they were bad, but because they were SO DAMN GOOD.You dreaded facing these guys. in particular we had TFG, you know the one who knows the rules to the letter and has WAY more money than you. He kicked a lot of ass, and was respected & feared.

It also sounds like your typical SM fanboy base that is way too caught up with fluff that is meaningless on the table. guard will curbstomp marines under the oppressive weight of their las-boots. end of story