There has been lots of discussion about the infamous powerblob lately, and it has been well established that they are quite good, especially against cc oriented armies. So, what does an assault squad based BA army do about this type of IG? A furious charge assault squad will make 11 on the charge, and if you do multiple charge the blob, that only comes to 22. As has been established, this will not stop a blob, and all those officers will do some nasty things to your boys. Especially with the standard kit out being one or two meltas and a powerfist per squad, no flamers, what could one do in this situation? And how would one prepare for next time?

Your steam engine dreads w/blood talons do the job 10 times over

But, how would one deliver them?

And more importantly, how would one do it in the BA pure jump list? As in, all infantry?

Thats like saying how do I put anti tank in a tervigon-only list. (I would deliver them with death company in a stormraven but that is alot of points)

You have to make concessions.

you can tank shock them together to flame a crazy number of them at once, or you can focus multiple jump units onto one squad to make sure that you win the combat quickly

Blobs don't do well when they don't have the time to do the magic, so multiple assaults at once can be nice.
Also you have a psychic ability that can pick the commisar out of those squads, then you can sweep them

Deep Striking. Get as many Assault Squads as you can, build them ten strong and then break them down into Combat Squads. Descent of Angels allows you more of a chance to Deep Strike on Turn 2. The lower the turn, the farther you jump away from him. Wait for his army to split up and start chasing after your two or three five man squads, then use Vanguard Vets with PW to assault his Company Command or use Sanguinary Guard with Infernus Pistols or Angelus Boltguns to mow down any special units such as Ratlings, Ogryns, Stormtroopers, etc. You'll need some fluff like Tactical Squads which is rather expensive fluff. I suggest buying vehicles, at least rhinos and razorbacks to give your men cover from small arms fire. 3+ saves are only good when you dont have to roll 50 saves per turn because youre bound to roll some 1s and 2s

Howabout, with the maneuverability a jump list has, and the small number of models, not deep striking, and being able to throw everything you have and taking advantage of this, throwing everything at one blob at a time.

As per the picking commissar out with blood boil, most power blob players will put at least two commissars in a squad for just this reason, and for the extra power attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, 3+ saves may not do the trick, but that and feel no pain probably will.

Well any time an IG player goes up against any type of SM, he takes marine killer weapons, e.g.; power weapons, melta guns, plasmas, tanks, and anything with low AP. If you dont deep strike and you dont go first, expect of world of hurt to hit your lines because FNP dont protect from wounds that dont allowe armor saves. My brother plays IG and this is what i constantly see. And with Lumbering Behemoth, LRBT have the potential to go 12" and unload with St. 8 AP 3 ordnance shot which means no covers saves and everybody in your arms aside from heroes, terms, and sang guards will take instant wounds. Thatll dwindle your army so when you do assault his numbers beat your better fighting skill

prussia59 wrote:Howabout, with the maneuverability a jump list has, and the small number of models, not deep striking, and being able to throw everything you have and taking advantage of this, throwing everything at one blob at a time

Thats kind of your best choice, ignoring sanguinary because if the IG player is specifically building his army to deal with yours, you are in trouble anyway.

I would say modify your army to allow for breaking blobs. If you are stuck on playing an all jump list with melta weapons then you are at a huge disadvantage against any horde army. not just powerblobs.
1 baal pred with flamer sponsons will lay a powerblob flat in a turn. Giving a squad or two of your assault boys flamers to deal with hordes/guys in cover will soften them up for your charge.
You can definitely add a honour guard with a pack of flamers to add an extra punch if you want to stick with infantry.
And as far as how to deliver a dread into combat? Drop pods, stormravens, and wings of sanguinus have been known to work

All true. I actually brought up wings of sanguinius in an earlier topic, with defenitely mixed reviews. The most down point is that it gives all the enemy antitank weaponry something to shoot at.

In my "general" lists I tend to take about a 50/50 mix of flame pistols and melta weapons... Just throwing your lads into a power blob will kill lots of them, but yours will die as well, net victory for the IG. OTOH, if you can attack from an unexpected angle, you might be able to catch his PWs on the far side giving you a bit of time to work through the fodder...

No thought ofnStorm Ravens?

I don't have my BA or IG codices in front of me but wouldn't Fear of the Darkness be a nice way to get that blob to run away?

I played against all drop/jump BA once with powerblobs and got wiped. Admittedly, some stupidity on my part, but still...

The thing with BA is that they can take SO MANY power weapons, and they very often have a source of preferred enemy. Add to that blood talons and heroic intervention and the fact that they FLY, and you're basically guaranteed to get the charge if you play right. 5 marines with power weapons put down like 16 rerollable power weapon attacks on the charge. That basically guts a perfectly healthy blob straight away. Then, you'll win combat, and the next combat phase you'll attack before they do, likely wiping the rest of the blob.

Highly mobile BA are actually one of the counters to a blob-based army, because they have the ability to beat them at their own game, and are really tough for the guard to maneuver on the field to counteract them.

If a really good ig blob player goes up against a really good ba jump spam player the winning factor becomes maneuverability which is entirely in favor the ba player.

Power weapons are not very good against marines when you need 4s to hit and 5's to wound.

Most off the time its the dual flamers that will outright kill you. And then theres the rerollable furious charge that wounds on a 2 and rerolls 3's to hit, then the powerfists....

Im sorry but why are we even talking about this =P.


BTW: FNP only stops working if its double strength or ap2. So ap 3 isnt immune to FNP.

Yuber wrote:Power weapons are not very good against marines when you need 4s to hit and 5's to wound.

it's not that they aren't good, it is that the marine player needs to slog through 3-5 bodies per marine to make up their points, all the while sucking down 12-20 power weapon attacks a turn.

The trick to blobs is focus enough rage on them to kill them, you can't out-attrition them

Grundz wrote:

Yuber wrote:Power weapons are not very good against marines when you need 4s to hit and 5's to wound.

it's not that they aren't good, it is that the marine player needs to slog through 3-5 bodies per marine to make up their points, all the while sucking down 12-20 power weapon attacks a turn.

The trick to blobs is focus enough rage on them to kill them, you can't out-attrition them

Well, look at it like this. Your playing jump pack marines. If you cant win the fight, you can just avoid it.

-Are you gonna win assault against a 50-man power blob? hell no. But can you run? yes.
-Can you brutalize a 20 man or 30 man blob? yes? its dead.

Grundz wrote:The trick to blobs is focus enough rage on them to kill them, you can't out-attrition them

Well, that's the problem. There are a few things that CAN beat a power blob in close combat. Most of these things, however, are very susceptible to FRF (a 1x banshee squad, or a 1x wych squad with an HQ choice, or a 30-zlugga boyz squad), and can thus be thinned out to tolerable levels before close combat begins. No such luck against BA, which are tough to get within 12" for an FRF, and are wearing power armor, so don't care as much about lasgun fire as boyz do.

Seriously, when you get hit by a 5x vanguard vet squad with sanguiniary priest, they CAN out-attrition you.

remember that Vanguard Vets with an attached character cannot use heroic Intervention so its would have to be from a nearby squad...

Volkan wrote:remember that Vanguard Vets with an attached character cannot use heroic Intervention so its would have to be from a nearby squad...

The Priest just needs to be within 6" of the unit to give them FNP/FC.

I think hitting the blob with multiple full squads of assault marines, with a sanguinary priest or two in range, and a character, may do it. The power weapons suck, but the masses of regular attacks do too, and the priests' FNP makes those half as effective. The FNP also protects you from taking too much damage from FRFSRF and other misc guns shooting you if you break/wipe out the blog on one of your own turns. The HQ you bring should be a Reclusiarch or Librarian with Unleash Rage to give you re-rolls to hit.

Remember that you can also take hand flamers on your sgts, which, while not amazine, can definitely help thin the blob's numbers by a few models before you go in.

I play a vanilla assault marine army, all infantry, with none of the BA advantages, and I've found that two full assault squads can handle a blob of about 30 guardsmen without excessive casualties. You're taking down about half of them on the charge, before they even get to strike, and 12 power weapon attacks are only picking off about 2 of your guys. They don't break, but you eventually wipe them out just from sheer number of attacks.

I wouldn't send one assault squad in by itself against a blob, though. The (relatively small, but still there) chance of losing 3-4 marines in the first round and the need to sustain your huge number of attacks for 2-3 assault phases mean assaulting with multiple squads is best.

OverwatchCNC wrote:I don't have my BA or IG codices in front of me but wouldn't Fear of the Darkness be a nice way to get that blob to run away?

Commissars add not only their high leadership but the stubborn special rule.

If youre taking an all infantry list, id suggest taking Mephistion. Hes super strong, got more wounds than anybody else, and with his force weapon he can kill a Lord Commissar in one hit. I mean St and T 6? Thats gonna blow up some tanks if you get it close enough

25 attacks on the charge without the pfist for a regular 10 man assault marine squad that has 2 melta guns.

2/3 hit 5/6 wound 2/3 failed armor saves=20/54 with FC, or 37%

8/9 hit 5/6 wound 2/3 failed armor saves=80/162 with FC and unleash rage or 49%

2/3 hit 2/3 wound 2/3 failed armor saves=8/27 without FC, or 29%

So the initial hit is going to be between 37% and 49% fatality rate for the normal non power weapon attacks.

At 37% 25 attacks will only kill 9.25 guardsmen, followed by 16 attacks killing 4.64 on the next round. All of this is completely ignoring the pfist sergeant and priest, but even with a few more casualties we're looking at 3 to 4 combat rounds with the guardsmen and quite likely 3 rounds of power weapons swinging back with every single one of them directed at the priest. With 12 power weapon swings per phase and 2 to 3 phases of combat the slow grind can result in 24 to 36 ig power weapon swings going off before the blob dies, which is 4 to 6 dead meq. 10 assault marines with a priest charging a power blob is almost a fair fight, and fair fights get your priests killed so they should be avoided whenever possible.


2 squads of assault marines against a 30 man power blob is a completely unfair fight that will massacre the power blob by round 2 and place single regular wounds on power weapons and/or the commissar within in the first round of combat. As long as the assault marines avoid a fair fights 20 of them should be able to steamroll through 30 man power blobs without breaking a sweat. There is no reason to lose half your squad destroying an IG power blob when a combined assault from 2 squads can do it without killing a single marine.

I play IG, and have been running a 30 man power blob a lot lately. I have done bad things to jump BA lists in CC, but ironically it's their shooting that's done the blob in. Flamers are one of the power blobs worst enemies, particularly if you get get the blob while it's tightly packed. I've lost my blob several times to flamers, very rarely to combat.

Though it's been suggested already, I'd advise dropping some melta in your assualt squads for flamers. If you're willing to make some more concesions, I'd say take a Dread with blood talons.

But if you're really stubborn about not changing your current list, just gather as many assualt squads as you can and bolt pistol the blob to death. Then you have a softer target to assualt the next turn.

Why wait till the next turn? Shoot the pistols and then assault the unit you shot at.

Ailaros wrote:

Grundz wrote:The trick to blobs is focus enough rage on them to kill them, you can't out-attrition them

Well, that's the problem. There are a few things that CAN beat a power blob in close combat. Most of these things, however, are very susceptible to FRF (a 1x banshee squad, or a 1x wych squad with an HQ choice, or a 30-zlugga boyz squad), and can thus be thinned out to tolerable levels before close combat begins. No such luck against BA, which are tough to get within 12" for an FRF, and are wearing power armor, so don't care as much about lasgun fire as boyz do.

Seriously, when you get hit by a 5x vanguard vet squad with sanguiniary priest, they CAN out-attrition you.

OT, but I dig your reports. Keep em comin. They are very entertaining.

I'll note that a 30-man blob + commissar w/ 4 Power Weapons is 225 points without any Special Weapons added in. An Assault Squad w/ 2 Meltas and a Power Fist is 235 points. If the Marines grind down the blob and survive, even losing 70% of their numbers, they are still coming out ahead in the exchange. And if board position dictates that this is a bad trade the Assault Marines have superior speed and maneuverability, so they can certainly refuse to the exchange for a more favorable target.

Don't forget shooting the Blob before you charge in. It is quite important. It kills like 5 guardsmen outright unless the Blob is bogged down in cover.

Beyond that, if you plan on going on jumpers without the necessary fire-support against Hordes that Heavy Weapons and Vehicles provide then you should seriously consider running Anti-Horde Jump Infantry in addition to the stock Tank-Hunter configurations of 2 Meltas and a Power Fist. An Assault Squad w/ 2 Flamers and a Power Weapon can do a serious number on a horde.

- Marty Lund

SanguinaryGuard wrote:Why wait till the next turn? Shoot the pistols and then assault the unit you shot at.

Because you probably deep struck in.

If you didn't, I'd still almost suggest waiting a turn to assualt anyways. Let one 5 man squad get vaporized by the charging power blob (after they inflict some causalties themselves), and then charge in for the kill. But this is more a matter of personal preference, and since every BA jump list I've seen deep strikes in against guard...so it's almost a non-issue anyways.

You don't need flamers against blob IG, but you do need melta guns to take down vendettas and heavy support that is most likely artillery or tanks.

2 squads of assault marines=50 attacks on the charge 55% cause a wound=28 wounds on the charge. 16 bolt pistols and 4 melta guns should inflict 3 casualties even if the blob is in cover and went to ground. Three casualties will reduce the size of the IG blob to 28 when it takes 28 wounds. Every guardsman takes a wound and 2/3 of them die. 2/3 of the power weapons will die, and there is a 66% chance the commissar is among the dead which will result in the loss of suborn. On average all that will remain at I3 is about 7 guardsmen, 4/12 power weapon attacks (1.3 live power weapons), and the BA player still has 6 power fist swings as follow up.

The entire point of playing BA jump marines is so you can annihilate a 225-250 point squad by hitting them with 470 points of jump marines.

Do also take note that blobs cant take PFists. Only power weapons. So getting Mephiston into combat with a blob is pretty much game over. You can't hurt T7 with S3.

Yuber wrote:Do also take note that blobs cant take PFists. Only power weapons. So getting Mephiston into combat with a blob is pretty much game over. You can't hurt T7 with S3.

\

And as Mephiston is only T6, this will result in him getting battered once or twice a turn, and finding himself unable to break re-rollable, Stubborn Ld 9

darkdm wrote:I play IG, and have been running a 30 man power blob a lot lately. I have done bad things to jump BA lists in CC, but ironically it's their shooting that's done the blob in. Flamers are one of the power blobs worst enemies, particularly if you get get the blob while it's tightly packed. I've lost my blob several times to flamers, very rarely to combat.

Though it's been suggested already, I'd advise dropping some melta in your assualt squads for flamers. If you're willing to make some more concesions, I'd say take a Dread with blood talons.

But if you're really stubborn about not changing your current list, just gather as many assualt squads as you can and bolt pistol the blob to death. Then you have a softer target to assualt the next turn.

And what ratio is acceptable in this respect? Dropping meltas is all well and good, but meltas can do things to infantry, and flamers can't do anything to tanks. Parking lots and/or mech lists are all too common, and I wish to be prepared.

schadenfreude wrote:You don't need flamers against blob IG, but you do need melta guns to take down vendettas and heavy support that is most likely artillery or tanks.

2 squads of assault marines=50 attacks on the charge 55% cause a wound=28 wounds on the charge. 16 bolt pistols and 4 melta guns should inflict 3 casualties even if the blob is in cover and went to ground. Three casualties will reduce the size of the IG blob to 28 when it takes 28 wounds. Every guardsman takes a wound and 2/3 of them die. 2/3 of the power weapons will die, and there is a 66% chance the commissar is among the dead which will result in the loss of suborn. On average all that will remain at I3 is about 7 guardsmen, 4/12 power weapon attacks (1.3 live power weapons), and the BA player still has 6 power fist swings as follow up.

Your math is a bit off. 16 bolt pistols & 4 MG = ~3 dead IG after GtG 3+ cover saves; so that's right. 50 regular attacks = 33 hits = 21.78 wounds = 14.37 more dead after armor saves. IG swing back with 15 power weapon attacks, killing 2.5 marines (unless Straken's in the neighborhood, in which case it's 3.33). Nine regular IG swing, doing .5 of a wound after wounds, saves, etc. Two fists swing killing 3.36 IG. So that's usually 3 or 3.83 dead marines, depending on whether Straken's giving them counterattack. Call it 3. Fists kill another 3.36. The following round the BA do around 12 wounds at I4 before armor saves, which is enough to start chewing power weapons, and the combat's largely in the bag. They may lose 1-2 more.

So two full BA squads, positioned to both be able to get the charge, both shoot all their guns, and not lose any attacking models due to bad terrain rolls or anything, will deal with a 30 block pretty handily. Of course, if there's a second block positioned to counter charge, or Straken, you're probably meat, though you should be able to finish off the first squad. If the first squad is 40 strong, you probably won't finish it off before the second unit kills you.

What complicates things, of course, is if you've taken some casualties on the way in. Or if your pistol shots cause him to remove some of the closest models, reducing the number of models you get into attack range, or forcing a long difficult terrain roll. If you've lost 5-6 guys before you hit, or if one of your units can't get in due to difficult terrain, you're in trouble. A lot of the time if you're close enough to get everyone into charge range, you're also close enough for him to move up and First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, which if he gets everyone in range (which is tricky) will kill about 5 assault marines, all told, which is enough to swing the fight. With the loss of those 5, you're looking at 2.336 dead IG from shooting, 10.6 IG dead on the charge, leaving 18 IG to swing back, who kill 3.5 marines. Fists kill 3.36. Next round the marines kill only around 7 IG at I4, leaving the power weapons intact, and the IG kill around 3 more marines, possibly finishing off one squad of BA. Fists kill around 2 more. Third round of combat, 9 wounds before saves means the power weapons start going down. You've won again, but in this case you've lost around 11-12 marines, which isn't nearly as good a situation as the first charge, with two intact squads only suffering 4-5 casualties between them.

Still, it's good to know that if you can get the positioning for that ideal 20 marines on 30 IG charge, you'll beat them down.

33 hits=27.5 wounds not 22. I did my math with the FC bonus. 33 S5 hits V T3=27.5 wounds. As soon as the number of wounds>the number of guardsmen power weapons and commissars die leaving a toothless shattered power blob. At that point it doesn't matter that 1/3 of the guardsmen will make their armor saves.

FRSRF isn't as big of a deal against FNP assault marines. The number of shots goes from 18 to 36 shots needed to drop an assault marine.

Being outnumbered by IG combined with the IG player being required to base new models with their 6" move whenever possible means the IG player is forced to help the BA player to get more assault marines in.

The combination of speed, FNP, and wounding guardsmen on 2+ with FC is a nasty combination against powerblob. As long as the BA player doesn't do anything foolish that gets his priests killed a good BA player should be able to slaughter a good powerblob IG player.

Devastator squad with 4x Heavy Bolters?

From the looks of it, most of your assault units are going to get bogged down and take a number of casualties to a blob, if not get swallowed whole. You'd have to invest more points than the target blob, basically. And since any good foot guard player will take more than one, you're going to get painted in a corner.

With the self restriction of no vehicles, you're going to have trouble with any swarm, really, it looks. Either you need to focus on anti-horde and drop some meltas for flamers, or take the long range guns. HBs can whittle down the enemy before you engage, making success more likely.

So, three options:
-flamers
-HBs
-not DSing and focusing everything on one blob at a time, so you can take enough out at I4 to minimize casualties.

:-) BA, modify your drop force perhaps to include "scout" elements like Baal Preds... I also tend to bring Dev squads myself, usually loaded out with half HB's, half ML's just to cover all the bases... 'course, not really a drop element...

schadenfreude wrote:The combination of speed, FNP, and wounding guardsmen on 2+ with FC is a nasty combination against powerblob. As long as the BA player doesn't do anything foolish that gets his priests killed a good BA player should be able to slaughter a good powerblob IG player.

Ah; your prior post made no mention of a priest.

On the whole, I'd still put my money on the horde IG army over a JP BA army, though the priests look to make a big difference.

pschappel, elcheezus, those suggestions don't really fit the theme of a JP army, nor are they all that good against horde units; heavy bolters aren't that great in the edition of 4+ cover saves, and missiles are mostly good if you can Tank Shock or Lash people into bunching up tightly.

Mannahnin wrote:pschappel, elcheezus, those suggestions don't really fit the theme of a JP army, nor are they all that good against horde units; heavy bolters aren't that great in the edition of 4+ cover saves, and missiles are mostly good if you can Tank Shock or Lash people into bunching up tightly.

Psst. That's kind of the point, to illustrate the corner that he's backed into. This thread has turned into "how can I beat something while refusing to take anything good against it".

:-) Pretty much... My "Airborne" list includes Recon elements like the the Baal for that reason... Mind, I have beaten good powerblobs with the BA, but the "just charge them" line of thought will get you killed... Drop pods with beacons, Assault Squads with Priests and the Vanguard Vets all coming in close to the blobs are good against most things, but just too many bodies in there to kill at once...

prussia59 wrote:
And what ratio is acceptable in this respect? Dropping meltas is all well and good, but meltas can do things to infantry, and flamers can't do anything to tanks. Parking lots and/or mech lists are all too common, and I wish to be prepared.

I've found that 1 out of 3 squads being armed with flamers is sufficent to still give the anti tank needed for a competitive game while still being able to handle horde.

Would one unit of deep striking honor guard kitted all with flamers be enough?

The theme of a jump army would almost always include.

Assault marines

Priests

At least one honor guard or sanguinary guard for the banner.

A librarian HQ

From there lists will vary, but the other likely possibilities include.

The Sanguinor, Dante, or Asteroth

More Honor Guard or Sanguinary Guard

Scout Bikes.

None of those units are bad against powerblob, with the lowest performing probably being sanguinary guard.

A key advantage of a pure jump list is the ability for every unit to deep strike or outflank and the entire army being vehicle free makes anti vehicle weapons overpriced overkill. Vehicles make an army a hybrid army, and dev squads cause the list to loose the dynamic synergy of an entire army being able to deep strike/outflank. Mephiston can't deep strike.

Next topic: Footprint

My 2,500 Ard boys list had a model count of 79 with no vehicles:50 assault marines, 5SG, 20 scout bikes, 2 priests, Libby, and Sanguinor=79 models

2 Powerblobs of 30 each with commissars +2 PCS+CCS=77 models

The footprint of a 2,500 point jump list is 2 models less than a pair of power blobs and the associated command squads (about 800 points). The footprint of most jump armies is about 1/3 the size of an IG power blob, and they move twice as fast.

Double the speed and 1/3 the foot print=absolutely no excuse for the BA player to be outmaneuvered. The game should be 600 or more points of BA with priest bonus charging 300 points of powerblob.

ElCheezus wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:pschappel, elcheezus, those suggestions don't really fit the theme of a JP army, nor are they all that good against horde units; heavy bolters aren't that great in the edition of 4+ cover saves, and missiles are mostly good if you can Tank Shock or Lash people into bunching up tightly.

Psst. That's kind of the point, to illustrate the corner that he's backed into. This thread has turned into "how can I beat something while refusing to take anything good against it".

This thread has turned into "insult the guy in third person like he is not here or is an idiot not worth talking to." What gives.

At any rate, I strive to be a purist. Why? Not going all out, but having a couple tanks (as you suggest) merely leaves my army not unified, with half presenting juicy targets for every single antitank gun the enemy has, and the other being mopped up because its support was already wiped.

Do I ds versus a powerblob list?

If so, do I drop out of rapid fire range, or close enough to melta tanks or flame blobs?

SanguinaryGuard wrote:And with Lumbering Behemoth, LRBT have the potential to go 12" and unload with St. 8 AP 3 ordnance shot...

This is incorrect. Your brother was cheating.

L. Wrex

prussia59 wrote:Would one unit of deep striking honor guard kitted all with flamers be enough?

It should be depending on how many points you are playing. I'd go with giving 1 assualt squad flamers too if it's over 1500 points.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

SanguinaryGuard wrote:And with Lumbering Behemoth, LRBT have the potential to go 12" and unload with St. 8 AP 3 ordnance shot...

This is incorrect. Your brother was cheating.

L. Wrex

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

I have had no luck in getting responses to this list in the army list forum, so, though it is against etiquette, I will present it here (thank you for your patience):

HQ

Librarian w/ Jump Pack - 125 pts Shield of Sanguinius, Unleash Rage

Librarian w/ Jump Pack - 125 pts Blood Lance, Unleash Rage

Honour Guard w/ Jump Packs, 4X Flamers, Company Standard - 200 pts

Honour Guard w/ Jump Packs, 4X Flamers, Company Standard - 200 pts



Troops

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, 1X Powerfist - 235

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, 1X Powerfist - 235

Assault Squad w/ 10X marines, 2X Meltaguns, 1X Powerfist - 235



Elites

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack - 75 pts

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack - 75 pts

Sanguinary Priest w/ Jump Pack - 75 pts



Fast Attack

Vanguard Veteran Squad w/ Jump Packs, Powerfist, Stormshield - 210 pts

Vanguard Veteran Squad w/ Jump Packs, Powerfist, Stormshield - 210 pts




The idea is to deep strike everything. The librarians will run with the assault squads, boosting their combat potential, and providing cover if necessary. The VV will, of course, HI, preventing scary shooty units from shooting or preventing scary assault units from charging. The PF and SS is there for the Insurance against MCs and the increased likelihood that they will survive the first round of combat. The HG flame squads will drop next to hordes, if there are any, or versus mech they will flame the units that pile out of vehicles popped by the assault squads. The assault squads will drop in a location suitable for popping vehicles or, if there aren't any, prepping for a multiple assault to help the vets.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

SanguinaryGuard wrote:And with Lumbering Behemoth, LRBT have the potential to go 12" and unload with St. 8 AP 3 ordnance shot...

This is incorrect. Your brother was cheating.

L. Wrex

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

I apologise. I made an assumption based upon imperfect evidence. However, in my defense, the wording of the rule is very clear and doesn't really leave any room for interpretation. Regardless, I concede that whilst he WAS cheating he may have been, to all intents and purposes, unaware of it.

L. Wrex

And, any response to the question?

SanguinaryGuard wrote:Well any time an IG player goes up against any type of SM, he takes marine killer weapons, e.g.; power weapons, melta guns, plasmas, tanks, and anything with low AP. If you dont deep strike and you dont go first, expect of world of hurt to hit your lines because FNP dont protect from wounds that dont allowe armor saves. My brother plays IG and this is what i constantly see. And with Lumbering Behemoth, LRBT have the potential to go 12" and unload with St. 8 AP 3 ordnance shot which means no covers saves and everybody in your arms aside from heroes, terms, and sang guards will take instant wounds. Thatll dwindle your army so when you do assault his numbers beat your better fighting skill

Everything you just said is completely wrong!

Lumbering Behemoth is not POTMS, you may fire one additional weapon to your main gun, even if your main gun is ordnance. It does not, however, allow you to fire after moving 12, and the chances of a LRBT actually moving 12 are slim anyway.

Where are you pulling no cover saves from str 8 ap 3?

In your drop army, do you have an objection to drop pods? Drop pods with a beacon are a huge part of my drop list, but I see you aren't using them at all... Not having to roll at all for deviation is really quite nice... The Librarian DN with the cover save power and say, Blood Lance or the "I still have a Jump Pack" power can be annoyingly devastating against tightly packed enemies or IG parking lots... Sometimes it will even survive :-) Playing FT's, I tend to use the DC and the DC DN's a lot more, and they are unholy terrors against a lot of IG builds...

Going straight out against an IG force, I might suggest looking at the flamer pistols for the SGT's at least (Assault Squads), and possibly the SP's... I also like a lot more power weapons on the Vanguard and the SP's, but that's just me I guess... Yes, a bit of a waste against the IG at times, but no save is better than 1/3 saves... Using your mobility and dancing around whittling his squads down and hitting on an unexpected side where he doesn't have his PW's bunched up will increase your odds quite a bit...

OK.

I think we need the BA players to stop talking, and the Guard players to start.

For my blobs, there are 2 things I fear: Flamers and Blood talons.

I believe Ailaros said something like it would take 4 heavy bolters 20 turns to dig a blob squad out of their 4+ cover, so negating that cover is number one priority.

So, Baal predators (problem: delivery) are a good option, as are deep striking flamer squads (problem: danger of deep striking), and furiosos are horrors IF you can deliver them without some opportunistic veterans with meltaguns come and asplode it.

prussia59 wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:pschappel, elcheezus, those suggestions don't really fit the theme of a JP army, nor are they all that good against horde units; heavy bolters aren't that great in the edition of 4+ cover saves, and missiles are mostly good if you can Tank Shock or Lash people into bunching up tightly.

Psst. That's kind of the point, to illustrate the corner that he's backed into. This thread has turned into "how can I beat something while refusing to take anything good against it".

This thread has turned into "insult the guy in third person like he is not here or is an idiot not worth talking to." What gives.

At any rate, I strive to be a purist. Why? Not going all out, but having a couple tanks (as you suggest) merely leaves my army not unified, with half presenting juicy targets for every single antitank gun the enemy has, and the other being mopped up because its support was already wiped.

Do I ds versus a powerblob list?

If so, do I drop out of rapid fire range, or close enough to melta tanks or flame blobs?

No intent to insult, even indirectly. Dropping melta for flamers had been mentioned and seemed to be shot down a couple times. I see that the proper ratio was asked, but nobody answered. I don't know myself, or I would have been more helpful. Either way, those are still the three options, the way I see it. The list posted looks like a good start for flamers, I tyhink.

Most blobs I build include MeltaBombs, so even a Dread variant might not last long. It will tarpit a while, but will eventually go down.

No problem.

As for the dreadnought, Jaon, I am all too aware of the awesome damage a furioso could inflict on infantry of any sort. However, with no easy means of delivery, and it being part of an infantry list and being one of the only vehicle targets presented, means it will most probably esplode before it does any good. Will it draw fire? Maybe, but meltas and lascannons frying marines is OK by me: when I have lots more where they came from.

Sooo, yes, I believe flamers is the only efficient option. Either on ds-ing infantry (ds danger is less w/ doa), or baal preds (which do have av 13, and can scout, but, well, has the same problem as the dreadnought.)

Thanks, all.

what are power blobs?

SanguinaryGuard wrote:And with Lumbering Behemoth, LRBT have the potential to go 12" and unload with St. 8 AP 3 ordnance shot which means no covers saves and everybody in your arms aside from heroes, terms, and sang guards will take instant wounds.

What are you smoking, and where can I get some?

Lumbering Behemoth does two things:
A LRBT moving 6" or less can fire one extra weapon in addition to the main cannon.
If it tries to move more than 6", rather than moving up to 12" like every other vehicle, it moves 6+D6" max and can't fire any weapons.

And the battle cannon is not indirect fire ordnance, so you should still get cover saves from it. Sounds like you guys just need to re-read the rules and make sure you're actually playing 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jaon wrote:OK.

I think we need the BA players to stop talking, and the Guard players to start.

I think this rule should apply universally to the whole forum.

I believe Ailaros said something like it would take 4 heavy bolters 20 turns to dig a blob squad out of their 4+ cover, so negating that cover is number one priority.

So, Baal predators (problem: delivery) are a good option, as are deep striking flamer squads (problem: danger of deep striking), and furiosos are horrors IF you can deliver them without some opportunistic veterans with meltaguns come and asplode it.

I would never trust any math Ailaros posits.

Anyway, Baal predators are quite easy to deliver since they are fast vehicles with outflank. A flamestorm/sponsonHF Baal predator is one of the scariest things I face on a regular basis. Goodbye platoons and heavy weapon teams. The danger of deep striking is also overstated; they only scatter 1D6, so mishaps are very unlikely.

Okay guys I don't know why but everyone is getting the IG lumbering behemoth rule wrong. It does 2 things but those are if the LR stays stationary or moves combat speed the LR may fire its main gun and "any other weapons" (notice the s for multiple) and the cruise speed is 6+d6 rather than 12 so no firing at cruise speed.

I agree about flamers, man they put the hurt to my IG infantry. Move up a couple of squads flame the blob and assault and it will get real bad real fast. Your only concern is if the IG player can get more forces into the fray during his turn.

Without a turn of FRFSRF or being able to get the power weapons in range IG blob squads aren't worth alot. If you can manage the maneuver (which with jet packs is possible) charge him on the opposite side from the power weapons and laugh.

ansacs wrote:Okay guys I don't know why but everyone is getting the IG lumbering behemoth rule wrong. It does 2 things but those are if the LR stays stationary or moves combat speed the LR may fire its main gun and "any other weapons" (notice the s for multiple) and the cruise speed is 6+d6 rather than 12 so no firing at cruise speed.

Sounds like you are getting it wrong too, seems you are implying that it can always fire all weapons (except at cruising speed), that is wrong. The effect is pretty much that it makes the turret weapon a defensive weapon and that you have to roll 6+d6 for cruising speed. That's it.
This:

(notice the s for multiple)

Doesn't mean anything.

pchappel wrote:.. Not having to roll at all for deviation is really quite nice..

Uhm... what? Pods still roll for deviation. Drop pods are also not really the point with drop angels.

pchappel wrote::-) BA, modify your drop force perhaps to include "scout" elements like Baal Preds... I also tend to bring Dev squads myself, usually loaded out with half HB's, half ML's just to cover all the bases...

Gah, horrible advice. Adding a few vehicles to a DoA army is silly. They will die horribly in one turn and do nothing. Dev squads can actually work well for jump BA, adds more bodies and some long range firepower, but heavy bolters blow, go all missile launchers

schadenfreude wrote:The entire point of playing BA jump marines is so you can annihilate a 225-250 point squad by hitting them with 470 points of jump marines.

This. Consentrate your forces, choose your engagements


Against an army such as Ailaros', with almost no longe range firepower, you should start on the board. You can choose the engagements and stack the odds in your favor. Against a shooty list with one, maybe two blobs, dropping in can still be valuable, but in most cases, I'm guessing it will be better to start on the table here too, as those blobs make very nice bubblewrap against DS too.

I really like the lrbt. Its a good tank, and does great against space wolves as they depend on krak, living lightning, and mechanized melta to slag av14, and none of those work well against a lrbt. Mech melta works great on land raiders and battlewagons because they come to the meltas, while a lrbt goes away from mech melta while the rest of the army pops transports(ig is good at popping transports). The 2 best ways to take out a lrbt is bike or jump using speed to melta or cc rear armor, and ba is great at doing that. Lrbt are also stuck in direct fire only, so against ba a basilisk is a much better choice.

Ailoros' math isn't far off. 4 hb cranking out 12 hb shots at bs4 will only drop 3&1/3 guardsmen in cover, at bs 3 the number drops to 2&1/2.

Flame baal preds are over rated against guard. If the template catches more than 8 the ig player is doing something wrong. 8 dead guardsmen isn't the end of the world, a blob with a commisar will pass morale and can procede to return fire with melta guns that are definately within 6".

Blood talons are over rated against ig. It is impossible for duel blood talons to get rerolls to hit as liby dreads are stuck with a force weapon. 1/3 of all swings miss, so assuming every hit wounds 4 attacks will yield an average of about 7 kills, and 3 attacks will yield about 5 kills. With average rolls a bt dread will need 6 rounds of cc to eat a blob. While the blob can't hurt the dread in cc the dread has to make it past a lot of lc and melta to get to the blob.

Let's put a Furioso with a pair of Blood Talons up against a blob of 50 guardsmen... Assume the dread charges the blob...

4 attacks = 3 hits & 3 die
3 more attacks = 2 hits & 2 die (5 dead total)
2 more attacks = 2 hits & 2 die (7 dead total)
2 more attacks = 1 hit & 1 dies (8 dead total)
1 more attack = 1 hit & 1 dies (9 dead total)
1 more attack = 1 hit & 1 dies (10 dead total)
1 more attack = miss; 1st round of carnage ends

The blob has nothing that can hurt the dreadnaught in close combat so you have tied up a squad equal to roughly double the cost of the walker. Other units can charge the blob and help finish it off quickly. Even without support the dread should be able to kill off the entire blob in 4-5 rounds of melee.

OrionDisciple. wrote:what are power blobs?

See Ailaros.



Now, this may be a bit specific, but how far away from a blob should a deep striking flamer squad be placed to maximize flamer potential but not unnecessarily risk the squad?


@Illumini - glad to have someone reaffirm my distaste for vehicles in a DoA list. Are missile launchers really the way to go? Not lascannons? And, isn't there the danger of them getting blown off the board first turn as well? (As the opponent will have nothing else to shoot at?)


As for locator beacons, I am reluctant to include drop pods in the list because of the drop pod assault rule. However, what is the opinion on scout bikers? Or just scouts? The locator beacon plus the scout move could guarantee accuracy for a drop on one target. For capture and control missions, are sniper scouts a good option for holding objectives?

DoA that is all in on the Jump/Drop Troops is super cowboy, and very limited in it's ability. It is very one dimensional and armies with strong shooting such as Mech IG will shoot it to bits without trouble (tested the match 10 times). Horde style armies like Kan Wall Orks (which aren't even consider a top list anymore) and Tyranids will have very favorable matchups agaisnt it too. The list needs depth and support. I've been testing a version with 5-6 Predators in it to much better results than something that goes all out for drop troops. The reason things like Predators are good is because you can always reserve them and they're still really good the turn they come on the table. Autolas Preds can move on 6" and shoot everything. Baal Preds are fast and can outflank. When you go first you have great shooting against some armies if you deploy them on the table. It also becomes a lot easier to deploy your troops on the table in relevant matchups (ie ones where it would be a strong consideration) because they have some support on their way across the table. It is a serious error to think that DoA BA must be played all drop. I thought like this before I finally caved and tried other things, and I'm finding a combination/hybrid to be much, much better.

ansacs wrote:Okay guys I don't know why but everyone is getting the IG lumbering behemoth rule wrong. It does 2 things but those are if the LR stays stationary or moves combat speed the LR may fire its main gun and "any other weapons" (notice the s for multiple)

I don't know why everyone is getting it wrong either, but you're one of them. It can fire the main gun in addition to any other weapons it would be able to fire. If you stand still, that's all of them. If you move combat speed, you can only fire ONE weapon as normal + the main gun due to the Lumbering Behemoth rule.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Let's put a Furioso with a pair of Blood Talons up against a blob of 50 guardsmen... Assume the dread charges the blob...

4 attacks = 3 hits & 3 die
3 more attacks = 2 hits & 2 die (5 dead total)
2 more attacks = 2 hits & 2 die (7 dead total)
2 more attacks = 1 hit & 1 dies (8 dead total)
1 more attack = 1 hit & 1 dies (9 dead total)
1 more attack = 1 hit & 1 dies (10 dead total)
1 more attack = miss; 1st round of carnage ends

The blob has nothing that can hurt the dreadnaught in close combat so you have tied up a squad equal to roughly double the cost of the walker. Other units can charge the blob and help finish it off quickly. Even without support the dread should be able to kill off the entire blob in 4-5 rounds of melee.

Any blob worth its salt would take Melta Bombs on each Sergeant, plus a Priest with an eviscerator. The odds are in the dread's favour, but there's still a possibility of being taken down.

Also, your maths are a little off, favouring the dread. 10 is possible, but I'd figure it to be more around 5. 2/3 (to hit) * 5/6 (to wound) = 5/9 chance of a wound for each attack. Adding in a series, W = 5/9x + (5/9)^2 x + (5/9)^3 x + . . . = 5. Obviously we deal with whole numbers, so expect result to vary, but that's my maths on average number of wounds in this case.


I think the appropriate range to deepstrike with flamers would be far enough to get the shoot and assault. You don't want to assault a full blob without flaming them, and you want to make sure to get the charge. So I'd say either don't DS them in a horde matchup, or DS more than 12" away so they can't assault you. You might get shot, but you should be able to get to them the next turn. If they run away to stay out of range, then you can use another group to pin them, claim your objective while they're too afraid, or just chase them around for a while.

ElCheezus wrote:
Any blob worth its salt would take Melta Bombs on each Sergeant, plus a Priest with an eviscerator. The odds are in the dread's favour, but there's still a possibility of being taken down.

I strongly disagree with this, particularly the Priest with eviscerator portion. The priest would get stomped before getting to swing, so would be just a waste of points. A few meltabombs here and there are feasible, but certainly not something I always spend the points on. It's a lot easier to just play smart and not let walkers engage you on their terms.

This isn't just to fight Dreads and walkers. Priests givr rerolls on a lot of attacks. Eviscerators and MBs give the blob a way to threaten vehicles in general, instead of just infantry. None of it is wasted in an all comers list.

If the dread focuses a round on the priest, that's a whole round where the MBs get another chance to take it down.

Cheezus: If you give the Priest any equipment he HAS to be in B2B to use it, where he can get picked out and subsequently smushed. Thus keeping him naked and at the back of the blob allows the blob to get the benefit from his special rule without directly endangering him.

L. Wrex

Caffran9 wrote: I've been testing a version with 5-6 Predators in it to much better results than something that goes all out for drop troops.

But then you're talking ard boyz pts level, right? I can't get more than 3 preds into my 1750 mech list unless I want to run a pred-wall list. And 6 preds is of course a different beast from 1-2.

ElCheezus wrote:Any blob worth its salt would take Melta Bombs on each Sergeant, plus a Priest with an eviscerator. The odds are in the dread's favour, but there's still a possibility of being taken down.

The OP isn't fighting Ailaros is he? I've never seen a blob with a priest (except for Ailaros' reports of course), and there are plenty of reasons for that. The eviscerator priest is expensive, and against anything that fights back, he is very dead. He wouldn't stand a chance against any dread.

prussia59 wrote:Are missile launchers really the way to go? Not lascannons? And, isn't there the danger of them getting blown off the board first turn as well? (As the opponent will have nothing else to shoot at?)

You can give them a priest, upping their survivability pretty heavily. Also, remember that you don't HAVE to deepstrike. Do it when you think you can gain by doing it, but remember that 40+ marines with FNP can often be more effective in a combined charge across the table.

Missile launcher is superior to lascannon because of cost and flexibility. If you find yourself struggling with too many enemy transports, you can take one lascannon in the unit and get that Bs5 S9 shot to add some punch to the units. 3x5 devastators with 3x4 missile launchers + a priest (and maybe camo-cloak scouts to hold home objective) would make a decent firebase for a jump list. It is a huge bonus if you can crack enemy transports before your assault marines get there, allowing them to punch the squishy parts instead of wasting time against armour.

Terminus wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:
Any blob worth its salt would take Melta Bombs on each Sergeant, plus a Priest with an eviscerator. The odds are in the dread's favour, but there's still a possibility of being taken down.

I strongly disagree with this, particularly the Priest with eviscerator portion. The priest would get stomped before getting to swing, so would be just a waste of points. A few meltabombs here and there are feasible, but certainly not something I always spend the points on. It's a lot easier to just play smart and not let walkers engage you on their terms.

There are 3 special weapon slots on a power blob, and a good chance they are melta so when you say engage the walkers on their own terms I am going to interpret that as metla the BT dread in the face. Guardsmen don't need to place them self within charge range of the dread, but if the dread places it's self within charge range of guardsmen it's also within melta range.

Think about what a melta pen does to a BT dread.

1:Stunned, can't move or charge next turn, guardsman will proceed to fire more melta at it.
2:Weapon destroyed ie a blood talon, -1A, and most importantly a single blood talon no longer gains any additional attacks. It's just a walker with a single str6 lighting claw.
3: Immobilized! Guardsmen laugh at the now helpless dread that can no longer charge, move 1" away from it, and begin to pee on it.
4:Wrecked.
5&6: Assplodes with a decent chance of killing some guardsmen.

The entire IG army is loaded with melta guns, so it's not like they a are a bunch of helpless kittens.

Illumini wrote:

pchappel wrote:.. Not having to roll at all for deviation is really quite nice..

Uhm... what? Pods still roll for deviation. Drop pods are also not really the point with drop angels.

pchappel wrote::-) BA, modify your drop force perhaps to include "scout" elements like Baal Preds... I also tend to bring Dev squads myself, usually loaded out with half HB's, half ML's just to cover all the bases...

Gah, horrible advice. Adding a few vehicles to a DoA army is silly. They will die horribly in one turn and do nothing. Dev squads can actually work well for jump BA, adds more bodies and some long range firepower, but heavy bolters blow, go all missile launchers

Yes, the Pods roll, but even dropping right on top of enemy troops, just move enough to not be on them... I was talking about the follow up waves of Assault troops and VVs . With the DoA re-roll, you should see a lot of things coming in on turn 2 riding in on thebeacon right up against whatever you are parking your drop pod near...

You really think that a flanking Baal Pred will do nothing? Interesting, mine almost always do a fair amount of damage against most things... Only time they've failed horribly is when I tried "non standard" things with them.. Even if they are just keeping the IG blobs from moving along the board edges, or taking out support units in the backfield.

All ML is "OK", probably more efficient in general, but I see a fair amount of "horde" builds locally... My Long Fangs especially use a 50/50 HB/ML mix, frankly I don't field Dev squads for my FT's... I just don't think that straight ML's will put enough shots downrage to put a dent in a blob as it runs towards you... :-) Mind, my IG "blobs" are a bit different than Aliros', I tend to use them as "bubble wrap" with lots of guns where his are the standard PW/Melta type. Really hard to kill off before they reach your lines or drop troops...

Terminus wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:
Any blob worth its salt would take Melta Bombs on each Sergeant, plus a Priest with an eviscerator. The odds are in the dread's favour, but there's still a possibility of being taken down.

I strongly disagree with this, particularly the Priest with eviscerator portion. The priest would get stomped before getting to swing, so would be just a waste of points. A few meltabombs here and there are feasible, but certainly not something I always spend the points on. It's a lot easier to just play smart and not let walkers engage you on their terms.

I have never fought blob with meltabombs or a priest with an eviscerator. The dread will surely insta gib the priest for a very easy kill point (thank you very much). It just sounded like a crutch response to be honest. DoA is very hard on IG in general regardless of whether it's all blobbed up of mech. Mech IG relies on going first to win big and doesnt do well in general versus heavily reserved armies.

All those meltaguns are wasted when the walker charges the blob from a Stormraven.

I'd imagine it deploys the Dreadnought like a bowling ball.

Pretty much.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Cheezus: If you give the Priest any equipment he HAS to be in B2B to use it, where he can get picked out and subsequently smushed. Thus keeping him naked and at the back of the blob allows the blob to get the benefit from his special rule without directly endangering him.

L. Wrex

Well, if you're going to take a priest, spending the points on an eviscerator is not a horrible choice. Who knows, something that doesn't fight back may present itself. The main proponent of priests on this board swears by them because he doesn't use heavy weapons, and from his reports they do account for the occasional transport.

I was really arguing against the priest being a staple of "any blob worth its salt", which is just a stupid statement. Personally, I don't bother with priests at all. My IG blobs are there to slowly grind opponents down or at least tarpit them for a few turns. Without a transport, they rarely are in a position to assault. I use big guns to do most of my killing.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:DoA is very hard on IG in general regardless of whether it's all blobbed up of mech. Mech IG relies on going first to win big and doesnt do well in general versus heavily reserved armies.
All those meltaguns are wasted when the walker charges the blob from a Stormraven.

You must be referring to this idiotic "Blowdryer" or whatever fad that seized the internet. It was a gakky list to start with, and it's still a gakky list now. People that play the alpha-strike IG list tend to lose more often than not. IG does not need first turn to win. In fact, I frequently prefer to take the second. IG can play the reserve game as well as, or better than anyone. Against DoA armies, I just reserve everything. Now you have the option of dropping on my side of the board with nothing to kill, and I rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. Or you can drop on your side of the board and footslog across the field, allowing me to again rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. The DoA army is not much different from the all drop-pod army, honestly, except they have FNP (very easy for IG to deal with) instead of cover from the pod.

Illumini wrote:

Caffran9 wrote: I've been testing a version with 5-6 Predators in it to much better results than something that goes all out for drop troops.

But then you're talking ard boyz pts level, right? I can't get more than 3 preds into my 1750 mech list unless I want to run a pred-wall list. And 6 preds is of course a different beast from 1-2.

Nope, 2000pt. army. It varies between 5 and 6 Preds on if I'm running Vanguards or Honor guard as my CC rock. I don't have my stuff in front of me since I'm out of town, but it looks something like this:

Librarian: Jump Pack, Shield of Sanguinius, Uleash Rage
Honor Guard: Jump Packs, Chapter Banner, 3x Storm Shield, 1x Powerfist, 1x Lightning Claw, 1x Power Wweapon

3x Priest: Jump Packs

10x Assault Squad: 2x Melta, Powerfist
10x Assault Squad: 2x Melta, Powerfist
10x Assault Squad: 2x Melta, Powerfist

Baal Predator
Baal Predator

Predator: Autocannon, Sponson Lascannons
Predator: Autocannon, Sponson Lascannons
Predator: Autocannon, Sponson Lascannons

If I was going to drop down to 1750 I think the first thing I would try is to drop an Assault Squad and switch one of the autolas Preds over to a Baal Predator. That should end up at 1750 or so. I haven't gotten to test this against mech IG yet, but I've had good results against a couple of competitive SW, Tyranids, Orks, and codex SM builds. I sohuld be able to get in a bunch of games against IG this coming week

If you want a real tank storm it is easy to fit 3 baals and 3 preds and 4 razorbacks into 1750p.
And there is even some space for a furioso dread

Terminus wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Cheezus: If you give the Priest any equipment he HAS to be in B2B to use it, where he can get picked out and subsequently smushed. Thus keeping him naked and at the back of the blob allows the blob to get the benefit from his special rule without directly endangering him.

L. Wrex

Well, if you're going to take a priest, spending the points on an eviscerator is not a horrible choice. Who knows, something that doesn't fight back may present itself. The main proponent of priests on this board swears by them because he doesn't use heavy weapons, and from his reports they do account for the occasional transport.

I was really arguing against the priest being a staple of "any blob worth its salt", which is just a stupid statement. Personally, I don't bother with priests at all. My IG blobs are there to slowly grind opponents down or at least tarpit them for a few turns. Without a transport, they rarely are in a position to assault. I use big guns to do most of my killing.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:DoA is very hard on IG in general regardless of whether it's all blobbed up of mech. Mech IG relies on going first to win big and doesnt do well in general versus heavily reserved armies.
All those meltaguns are wasted when the walker charges the blob from a Stormraven.

You must be referring to this idiotic "Blowdryer" or whatever fad that seized the internet. It was a gakky list to start with, and it's still a gakky list now. People that play the alpha-strike IG list tend to lose more often than not. IG does not need first turn to win. In fact, I frequently prefer to take the second. IG can play the reserve game as well as, or better than anyone. Against DoA armies, I just reserve everything. Now you have the option of dropping on my side of the board with nothing to kill, and I rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. Or you can drop on your side of the board and footslog across the field, allowing me to again rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. The DoA army is not much different from the all drop-pod army, honestly, except they have FNP (very easy for IG to deal with) instead of cover from the pod.

Anytime you reserve a blob army versus DoA you are basically putting the fate of your army in the hands of the dice. I've had plenty of games where even with DoA rule for reserves the bulk of my army came on turn 3 while most of the blob army came on turn 2. So basically you get one turn of shooting in then are mass assaulted. Sure it could easily go the other way - like I said reserving your entire army is relying upon luck to win.

prussia59 :

I really like that list you posted up. It looks like it's got plenty of melta for mech lists and enough flamers to give you the edge on horde lists.

As for where to drop your flamers if you deep strike them, it's really up to you. You could always play it safe with 7 inches, but I really recomend you get as close as 3 inches to make sure you get to use those flamers to full effect.

Thanks!

When I posted it on army lists, I got the suggestion to take down the number of 5-man squads. So, with that in mind, what do you think of the same list, but with 2X 10 man assault squads with 2X flamers each replacing the two honor guard? Adds more bodies. As well, as for where to deep strike them, as they have less mass flamers, it might be better just to stay out of charge range, and flame and charge the next turn.

Another option for the list would be replacing one 10 man assault squad with a devastator and a scout squad (devs with missile launchers.)

Thanks, all, for keeping this thread alive for me. It has been most informative and enlightening. (As short threads really can't be.)

I wouldn't run any devs as they don't work well with this type of list. Same thing with scouts. I like HG - I keep mine choppy though. I run my assault squads all with one melta and one flamer. Works very well so far .

BloodThirSTAR wrote:

Terminus wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Cheezus: If you give the Priest any equipment he HAS to be in B2B to use it, where he can get picked out and subsequently smushed. Thus keeping him naked and at the back of the blob allows the blob to get the benefit from his special rule without directly endangering him.

L. Wrex

Well, if you're going to take a priest, spending the points on an eviscerator is not a horrible choice. Who knows, something that doesn't fight back may present itself. The main proponent of priests on this board swears by them because he doesn't use heavy weapons, and from his reports they do account for the occasional transport.

I was really arguing against the priest being a staple of "any blob worth its salt", which is just a stupid statement. Personally, I don't bother with priests at all. My IG blobs are there to slowly grind opponents down or at least tarpit them for a few turns. Without a transport, they rarely are in a position to assault. I use big guns to do most of my killing.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:DoA is very hard on IG in general regardless of whether it's all blobbed up of mech. Mech IG relies on going first to win big and doesnt do well in general versus heavily reserved armies.
All those meltaguns are wasted when the walker charges the blob from a Stormraven.

You must be referring to this idiotic "Blowdryer" or whatever fad that seized the internet. It was a gakky list to start with, and it's still a gakky list now. People that play the alpha-strike IG list tend to lose more often than not. IG does not need first turn to win. In fact, I frequently prefer to take the second. IG can play the reserve game as well as, or better than anyone. Against DoA armies, I just reserve everything. Now you have the option of dropping on my side of the board with nothing to kill, and I rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. Or you can drop on your side of the board and footslog across the field, allowing me to again rape you when my stuff rolls on the board. The DoA army is not much different from the all drop-pod army, honestly, except they have FNP (very easy for IG to deal with) instead of cover from the pod.

Anytime you reserve a blob army versus DoA you are basically putting the fate of your army in the hands of the dice. I've had plenty of games where even with DoA rule for reserves the bulk of my army came on turn 3 while most of the blob army came on turn 2. So basically you get one turn of shooting in then are mass assaulted. Sure it could easily go the other way - like I said reserving your entire army is relying upon luck to win.

Reserving is to the advantage of the 2nd player. If the doa player goes 2nd the reason is obvious. If the ig player goes 2nd reserving is a good idea if the ba player doa. 75% of the doa list deep strikes on turn 2. Then 66% of the ig rolls on and gets the advantage of deploying 2nd and shooting first. Furthermore the ba player has limited control of how and where his units are deployed. Some units will scatter outside the priests bubble, other units will roll a 1 on their run roll resulting in a clustered mass eating a large ignore armor ignore fnp pie.

If ba go first it is better to start off on the board. 24+2d6" of movement before ig rolls in will put ba in a superior position to a doa. Everybody is in priest range, shield of sanguinis range, and or turbo boosting scout bikes will be screening the ba army.

prussia59 wrote:Thanks!

When I posted it on army lists, I got the suggestion to take down the number of 5-man squads. So, with that in mind, what do you think of the same list, but with 2X 10 man assault squads with 2X flamers each replacing the two honor guard? Adds more bodies. As well, as for where to deep strike them, as they have less mass flamers, it might be better just to stay out of charge range, and flame and charge the next turn.

Another option for the list would be replacing one 10 man assault squad with a devastator and a scout squad (devs with missile launchers.)

Thanks, all, for keeping this thread alive for me. It has been most informative and enlightening. (As short threads really can't be.)

Switching out your honor guard for the assualt squads with flamers would be fine. I actually like the more bodies idea, despite the fact you get fewer flamers. That's how I'm running mine.

And I hadn't thought to much about deep striking them out of sight, and then flaming/assualting the next turn. That one really depends on where your opponent's horde is in relation to everything else in his/her army, but that is certainly a viable option (and more highly recomended if you're going to drop the honor guard for the assualt squads).

I'm going to agree with BloodThirSTAR and suggest that you not take devestators or scouts in your list, seeing as the whole rest of the army would be as mobile as it is.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Anytime you reserve a blob army versus DoA you are basically putting the fate of your army in the hands of the dice. I've had plenty of games where even with DoA rule for reserves the bulk of my army came on turn 3 while most of the blob army came on turn 2. So basically you get one turn of shooting in then are mass assaulted. Sure it could easily go the other way - like I said reserving your entire army is relying upon luck to win.

It's far more likely that both armies will gradually trickle in, making it a battle of attrition, which is what the IG does best. Even with an Astropath, IG have a 66% chance of rolling something on the board 2nd turn to the Angels' 75%. Unless DoA allows re-rolls of successful reserve rolls as well? That would help in that case.

In any case, we were discussing mech IG, but it's an even harder battle with blobs. Multi-charging is not really an option when there are at least as many blob squads as there are BA assault squads. If you land within assault range, not only are you eating a turn of firepower, you are then getting assaulted, denying you the extra attack and Furious Charge, which is the only hope you have of winning that combat.

@darkdm - and what is your opinion of BloodthirSTAR's approach to the problem, which is to put a flamer and a melta in every squad?

And, everyone else?

prussia59 wrote:@darkdm - and what is your opinion of BloodthirSTAR's approach to the problem, which is to put a flamer and a melta in every squad?

And, everyone else?

My IG roots come back to me and I say don't mix weapons. Mixing the weapons makes the squad more more useful aginst tanks and infantry than it would otherwise be if it had no such weapons, but not as effective against any one target like if it had two of the same weapon.

Keep each squad effective against one type of target in shooting, and call it good. You'll have fewer headaches later when you REALLY needed that land raider dead, but you only had one metla to shoot it with.

darkdm wrote:Keep each squad effective against one type of target in shooting, and call it good. You'll have fewer headaches later when you REALLY needed that land raider dead, but you only had one metla to shoot it with.

QFT

Agreed.

That said, if you face IG quite often, you could invest in a hand flamer or infernus pistol (which lets you use one of the melta slots for a regular flamer).

Ball Pred are fast and have a flame template that wounds IG on a 2+ with no armor saves.
Land seeders are fast and have a flame template that wounds IG on a 2+ with no armor saves.

The Ball has a lot more armor, while the land speeder will have a multi melta and will be almost half the cost.
2 Land speeders with MM have twice the flamethrower kill power of 1 Baal and only cost 5 points more.

Even in a BA/non Salamanders list land speeders are a much better deal against IG than a Flamecannon Baal Pred.

Question: Why do Baal Preds perform so poorly against IG compared to Land Speeders?
Answer: Because Baal Preds are not meant to be used against IG as they are dedicated MEQ killers. Flame weapons cap out at S5 AP4 against IG, and the Baal is S6 AP3. The S6 AP3 is a dedicated marine killer wounding them on a 2+ with no power armor, and the Baal pred pays a premium price for that ability. Against IG it's nothing more than paying 115 points for a single heavy flamer.

I take it you don't count the sponsens on the Baal? I typically us HB's, but if you were hunting something close to the board edge, you could come in 6" and light up a big squad with 3 templates...

Back to the OP... I use a LOT of the flame pistols on the SGT's, Priests, etc... Just to cover the bases mostly, but I usually get a few shots every game against most things... Almost never "great", but it does help a lot...

schadenfreude wrote:Answer: Because Baal Preds are not meant to be used against IG as they are dedicated MEQ killers. Flame weapons cap out at S5 AP4 against IG, and the Baal is S6 AP3. The S6 AP3 is a dedicated marine killer wounding them on a 2+ with no power armor, and the Baal pred pays a premium price for that ability. Against IG it's nothing more than paying 115 points for a single heavy flamer.

Not really, that S6 can insta-kill heavy weapon teams and is pretty good at popping rear armor.

Convential wisdom says to take the same weapon twice for each assault squad. I used to run double melter until I faced off versus a nid horde army. Since then i've been running the flamer/melter combo. If you are simply tailoring your list to fight hordes then run two flamers and a flamer pistol. For most of us we want a balanced list that can do well versus all comers. Against mech (as opposed to blob) I still have two melters per squad (meltagun & infernus pistol). I tend to overlap units so if needed I can focus fire on a tank. Basically if I want to wreck/destroy a tank it's going to happen.

Back to the main subject - DoA can do a number on blobs... They get one turn to shoot then you're in their proverbial grill. You want an uber squad of VV with storm shields to juice them. It's all about racking up as many wounds as possible as quickly as you can. Blob ig has no real defense versus VV as far as I'm aware. Basically your tying down the blobs so they can't shoot the next turn. Assault dreads with talons as noted are your best friends versus blob. Again if you can get the walker into melée the blob is tied up the rest of the game.

About the reserve game - like I said if the guard player goes into reserve the odds are in favor of the DoA army. I've had my share of games where the majority of my army shows up on turn 3 opting not to reroll unsuccessful reserves. Basically it all comes down to the dice but the odds are in favor of BA.

pchappel wrote:I take it you don't count the sponsens on the Baal? I typically us HB's, but if you were hunting something close to the board edge, you could come in 6" and light up a big squad with 3 templates...

Back to the OP... I use a LOT of the flame pistols on the SGT's, Priests, etc... Just to cover the bases mostly, but I usually get a few shots every game against most things... Almost never "great", but it does help a lot...

A baal with flame sponsoons is nearing the price of 3 land speeders, and 2 land speeders can pack 4 heavy flamers outgunning the baal for far less points. Also moving6" when insiide flamer range is dangerous, which is why fast vehicles should stick with a single flame attack..


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Terminus wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Answer: Because Baal Preds are not meant to be used against IG as they are dedicated MEQ killers. Flame weapons cap out at S5 AP4 against IG, and the Baal is S6 AP3. The S6 AP3 is a dedicated marine killer wounding them on a 2+ with no power armor, and the Baal pred pays a premium price for that ability. Against IG it's nothing more than paying 115 points for a single heavy flamer.

Not really, that S6 can insta-kill heavy weapon teams and is pretty good at popping rear armor.

Tl assault cannons are s6 rending and in plentyful supply in a mech ba list. Ap3 flamers are for killing meq, not geq. Advocating ap3 flamers against guard is like telling chaos players thousand sons ap3 boltguns are superior to sonic blasters when shooting geq.

Except we weren't talking about mech BA lists, and designing a balanced list, not a tailored ROFLSTOMP list that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

When I design an army, I take the approach of balancing flexibility, redundancy, and synergy both amongst the units in my army and within the units. Specialized units require similar specialized units for redundancy, and different specialized units for flexibility, whereas generalists emphasize flexibility and require other generalist units for redundancy.

Units like Grey Hunters and Chaos Space Marines do well with twinned Melta Guns because they are generalists, being reasonably well in close combat and anti-infantry shooting: the Melta Guns give them integral flexibility. You don't lose large amounts of anti-infantry firepower by taking dual Melta Guns and forgoing half-and-half, or complete Flamers.

However, Assault Squads are more specialized, so Flamers represent a significant investment in anti-infantry firepower, and as this thread suggests there are times you simply need that firepower to soften up mobs of troops for mopping up with close combat. However, you likewise cannot lose the anti-tank power of the Melta Gun. The combination means that you're less likely to lose a significant chunk of either kind of firepower if a unit is destroyed, and you will have a weapon for every target. Furthermore by spreading them throughout your units, you give yourself the opportunity to more efficiently deliver your firepower: Rather than firing two Melta Guns at a tank, you can fire one, and then maintain or adjust targets according to whether it survives the first.

Terminus wrote: Even with an Astropath, IG have a 66% chance of rolling something on the board 2nd turn to the Angels' 75%. Unless DoA allows re-rolls of successful reserve rolls as well? That would help in that case.

DoA only allows rerolls of failed reserves tests. But the rerolls aren't required. So a BA player who wanted to keep units in reserve for some reason could drop to the standard 50% in turn 2 by just not taking rerolls.

Terminus wrote:Except we weren't talking about mech BA lists, and designing a balanced list, not a tailored ROFLSTOMP list that means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

And that's the main reason why I don't take a single flamer in my jump army, it's built for tournament play not being tailored to stomp specific lists. Most opponents are mechanized MEQ, and I usually find that I need every melta gun that I have. The only army that I have a difficult time where flamers would make my life a lot easier is heavy genestealer lists, but even then the lack of melta guns would make my life difficult against heavy tyanid warrior lists. Cutting melta guns for flamers would make life difficult against a mechanized army especially mech IG where every single squad has a Chimera. Cutting meltas for flamers to use against GEQ is insane because DOA BA can kill them without flamers as long as we get off the charge and throw enough assault marines at them (about double the value of the blob)

After a complete massacre in round 1 my jump list went to one of the top tables at the LA ard boys finals, and then got knocked down to the middle of the pack with a tie and minor victory after I faced tyanids twice in a row. Flamers would have helped with the genestealers, but the loss of melta would have hurt against warriors, shrieks, and TMC. Looking back on it the melta guns really did help to save my bacon. Most important issue was actually the quality of my opponents. Luck was not an issue as it was lukewarm for both sides in all games, so it all came down to mistakes, and none of my opponents made any major mistakes to exploit. The net result of 2 good players, lukewarm luck, and no major mistakes by either side=A tie or minor victory . In either game the presence of flamers would have been mitigated by opponents that don't make simple costly mistakes like clustering genestealers in the presence of flame throwers. Even after 2 rough experiences with nids at the LA ard boys finals I just don't see a place in a jump list for flamers in a tournament list where nobody has any idea which army they will face.

You don't obviously know how to handle Nidz yet still espouse double meltas. Amazing.

That comment comes close to trolling.

It would be much more helpful to everyone, and more polite to that poster, if you would explain further how you use your flamers against Tyranids.

Okay sorry for my frustration. Like I said if you want to build a balanced DoA army then simply loading up on as much melta as possible is not the right direction in my opinion. Mech is very popular but even though the new Tyranids are generally perceived as uncompetitive there is always the chance you might have to play against them in a tournament. Meltas are not worth there cost versus an army that has no armor. Sure it's the best answer to mech - we all know that here. Simply relying upon close combat to beat down Nidz is risky. What I see when playing in tournaments is the better Nid players will bubble wrap their monstrous creatures with gaunts and genestealers. If you assault the gaunts then they will counter charge you with the big nidz like Trygons and Tyrants. Flamers let you open a path through the bubble wrap so you can charge the big bugs. I figured this out after narrowingly beating a Nid army. Since then I haven't had much problems.

We are talking meta game now. The most popular armies are mechanized, and space marines. Ap5 flamers don't do much against space marines or mech. They are purely anti horde so the question is between nids, orks, and IG does the threat of horde demand melta guns be dropped for flamers.

Going against horde without flamers is difficult, but possible. It just requires the BA player to outmaneuver the horde. Going against a heavy walker list such as chaozilla, master of the forge codex list, or BA dread list without melta is an absolute nightmare. I would rather go up against horde with no flamers than a 6 Ironclads or a BA dread list with some of my potential melta slots filled with flamers.

It's always a no win chose the lesser of 2 evils when deciding what to cut in an all comers list. Horde IG scares me a whole lot less than MEQ, Mech, and Walker lists.

Bear in mind that flamers actually do perfectly respectable damage to marines; though not to FNP marines or terminators. A meltagun shooting at a marine outside cover averages .56 dead marines. A flamer only needs to cover three marines to equal that. Two meltaguns shooting at a squad of marines average 1 dead if there's no cover. Two flamers each hitting 6 marines average two dead even with cover, and can get even more if the marine rolles poor on his saves.

Not disputing that walkers and mech lists require you to bring significant quantities of melta, but it's really them that necessitate it; not the marines.

I could have explained meq better. I wasn't trying to say melta is better for gunning down meq, I was saying flamers under perform.

2 melta= 1 dead meq
2 flamer=2 dead meq
That is a net gain of a single meq

Against meq the squads anti vehicle firepower is traded for a dead 16 point marine when the meq squad is close enough it is about to be on the wrong end of a rolfstomp because its is going to get charged by ba.

1 dead meq per special weapon, that is all flamers do against meq when they hit 6 of em.

When you add cover to the equation, flamers outperform meltas by a mile, and plasmaguns as well. Then when you consider variance, the flamers are superior even without cover. Don't fall into the trap so many do and confuse statistical average with actual outcome. One meltagun will kill maximum one space marine. One flamer hitting six could possibly, however unlikely, kill all six (~20% odds of killing two, etc.).

However, with Blood Angels now comprising a very significant portion of the MEQ targets, you need to be able to handle FNP. And mech is far more prominent than horde. A few landspeeders with a heavy flamer should cover your template needs. And BA always have the advantage of being able to add a flamer pistol (or infernus + melta/flamer). The hand flamer may kind of suck, but most targets you would fire it at are T3 and/or 6+ armor.

I thought this thread was about how to fight blob. Anyways looks like the arguments against the flamer are not that strong actually. Dreadnaught heavy armies tend to be quite rare, I wouldn't design my armies to beat them. That said they have enough problems of their own I don't see them as a huge threat to a DoA list.

This thread reeks of horrible advice. Why would any sane BA player use DoA against IG?

Just plain jump packing across the board would have sufficed. Coming to the board piecemeal is exactly what turns IG players on.

Utilize that cover that is literally everywhere. Block your guy with more guys to get that cheesy cover save and if all else fails there's the shield of sanguinus.

Regarding the flamer issue: they are effective, regardless of what type of list or army you are fighting and it is certainly not sane to replace all your flamers into meltas for fear of tanks and LR.

To be back on topic:

-A proper DoA list should have libbies. Im sorry but I dont think dante is that good. Scattering on a d6 is good enough, taking dante is being greedy.

One libby should have sword and shield for dealing threats that are tough to kill. The other one should have unleash rage and another power of your choosing. Unleash rage allows you to re roll to hits and assuming you have an honor guard nearby, furious charge allow you to wound on 2's.

-Honor guards. if possible always take 2.

I kit out the Honorguards with jump packs: 1 HG will have 4 plasmas - this will be my MEQ killers and Transport killers and if a rare opportunity presents itself, jump to the rear and shoot rear armor. The 2nd guard will have 4 meltaguns and 4 flamers. This squad is pretty self explanatory, and will wreck IG power blobs any time of the day.

With all these options I present to you. I am baffled at how you will struggle with blobs. Thanks to mobility you will always fight on your own terms.

Also forget tanks. Dont bring anything with an AV. Land speeders, Baals or whatever. Use devs. kit them out with las cannons or MLs- they will deal with armored threats and have resilience to survive shooting.

Terminus wrote:Agreed.

That said, if you face IG quite often, you could invest in a hand flamer or infernus pistol (which lets you use one of the melta slots for a regular flamer).

Where in the rules does it say that? The infernus pistol rule? Not in the armory section, that's for sure.

prussia59 wrote:

Terminus wrote:Agreed.

That said, if you face IG quite often, you could invest in a hand flamer or infernus pistol (which lets you use one of the melta slots for a regular flamer).

Where in the rules does it say that? The infernus pistol rule? Not in the armory section, that's for sure.

Want to think that through one more time? Is there such a thing as a melta-slot?

Yuber wrote:This thread reeks of horrible advice. Why would any sane BA player use DoA against IG?

Just plain jump packing across the board would have sufficed. Coming to the board piecemeal is exactly what turns IG players on.

Utilize that cover that is literally everywhere. Block your guy with more guys to get that cheesy cover save and if all else fails there's the shield of sanguinus.

Some BA jump players DOA because they can DOA regardless if it's a good idea or not. Having the option to do something often tempts players making mistakes that are as tactically sound as deep striking a land raider.

I rarely DOA myself, but there are some times when DOA is an excellent idea such as Dawn of War when the IG player choses to go 2nd, and other scenarios where DOA is a terrible idea such as Pitched Battle when the IG player choses to go 2nd.

The thread has gone off topic man times. What is really needed against IG (or any other army) is proper deployment and maneuvering into superior assault positions. Those 2 components should be all a BA army really needs to take down a power blob.

schadenfreude wrote:

Yuber wrote:This thread reeks of horrible advice. Why would any sane BA player use DoA against IG?

Just plain jump packing across the board would have sufficed. Coming to the board piecemeal is exactly what turns IG players on.

Utilize that cover that is literally everywhere. Block your guy with more guys to get that cheesy cover save and if all else fails there's the shield of sanguinus.

Some BA jump players DOA because they can DOA regardless if it's a good idea or not. Having the option to do something often tempts players making mistakes that are as tactically sound as deep striking a land raider.

I rarely DOA myself, but there are some times when DOA is an excellent idea such as Dawn of War when the IG player choses to go 2nd, and other scenarios where DOA is a terrible idea such as Pitched Battle when the IG player choses to go 2nd.

The thread has gone off topic man times. What is really needed against IG (or any other army) is proper deployment and maneuvering into superior assault positions. Those 2 components should be all a BA army really needs to take down a power blob.

I know what you are saying. Everytime I play a DoA noob, I chuckle evilly simply because they put everything in reserve when just moving plain forward is simply better. It becomes even funnier when they include dante which more often than not affects their decision to DOA or not.

When you add cover to the equation, flamers outperform meltas by a mile, and plasmaguns as well. Then when you consider variance, the flamers are superior even without cover. Don't fall into the trap so many do and confuse statistical average with actual outcome. One meltagun will kill maximum one space marine. One flamer hitting six could possibly, however unlikely, kill all six (~20% odds of killing two, etc.).

You are writing right out of my soul.

So many true words...

The flamer also helps out a bit with providing more hits since the squad has bolt pistols. Consider a unit of ten with a flamer and nine bolt pistols (assuming the flamer can touch four enemy models):

Four automatic hits from flamer
Six hits from bolt pistols
Total = 10 hits

Now consider a squad of ten tactical Marines with a special weapon and heavy weapon (sergeant has a bolt pistol):

17 shots from rapid firing bolters and bolt pistol,
Roughly 10 hits

Without the flamer the assault would only generate 6 hits with their bolt pistols. To me that is one of the inherent advantages of taking a flamer. You'll probably only be able to shoot once so it's best to optimize the number of S4 hits. Unless the guardsmen have carapace armor the AP5 bolt pistol/flamer is going to drop some guardsmen. Against blob weight of attacks can be critical.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The flamer also helps out a bit with providing more hits since the squad has bolt pistols. Consider a unit of ten with a flamer and nine bolt pistols (assuming the flamer can touch four enemy models):

Four automatic hits from flamer
Six hits from bolt pistols
Total = 10 hits

Now consider a squad of ten tactical Marines with a special weapon and heavy weapon (sergeant has a bolt pistol):

17 shots from rapid firing bolters and bolt pistol,
Roughly 10 hits

Without the flamer the assault would only generate 6 hits with their bolt pistols. To me that is one of the inherent advantages of taking a flamer. You'll probably only be able to shoot once so it's best to optimize the number of S4 hits. Unless the guardsmen have carapace armor the AP5 bolt pistol/flamer is going to drop some guardsmen. Against blob weight of attacks can be critical.

So figure 12 bp hits for 2 squads. Do those extra flamer hits matter that much if the unit in question is about to take 50 I5 S5 WS4 cc attacks followed by 6 S9 WS4 power fists?

I don't think it's accurate to assume in general versus a good opponent you're going to be able to charge two full assault squads into one unit. It's nice when you can but purely situational in my mind.

schadenfreude wrote: followed by 6 S8 WS4 power fists?

Fixed that for you

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I don't think it's accurate to assume in general versus a good opponent you're going to be able to charge two full assault squads into one unit. It's nice when you can but purely situational in my mind.

Why not?

2 blobs+2pcs>2 assault squads+ priest in points.

The ba are 1/3 the size and have twice as much speed as the blobs.

They are called blobs for a good reason: They are slow, fat, and difficult to maneuver.

Assault squads attempting to oumaneuver blobs is like watching a WW2 dogfight between fighters and bombers.

That's just it really. Whether you deep strike or jump across the table your assault squads are going to draw some fire. I can't remember the last time I ever had two full assault squads charge the same unit. It'd be awesome, just dont think it's all that feasible in actual practice.

Grundz wrote:

schadenfreude wrote: followed by 6 S8 WS4 power fists?

Fixed that for you

But if there is a Sanguinary Priest within 6" or he failed his pre-game Red Thirst test, S9 would be correct.

The good thing about the Flamer, other than hitting multiple models, is that it hits before even I10 can strike. So, yes, the extra S4 AP5 hits are well worth it even if you plan to charge the target unit.

schadenfreude wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I don't think it's accurate to assume in general versus a good opponent you're going to be able to charge two full assault squads into one unit. It's nice when you can but purely situational in my mind.

Why not?

2 blobs+2pcs>2 assault squads+ priest in points.

You are not making any damn sense whatsoever.

First, the PCSs are completely different units doing completely different things (like slagging your armor) in a completely different part of the table. How do they figure into the equation?

Second, you are still dedicating two assault units and a character (about 500 points) against one ~225 point blob.

Third, by doing the above you are exposing yourself to counter-shooting from the whole IG gunline and maybe even counter-assault by the other blob. Expect to lose most of your attack force, if not all of it.

Fact remains, multiple charges are a rare opportunity/occurrence.

Based on my experience of playing a Shrike army with 3 full assault squads, it's not that hard to get multiple squads against any target with a base movement of 6".

Granted, Shrike gives them fleet, but except in turn 1 that's mostly just gravy that allows you to do really refined positioning of which models get into base where or offset the effects of terrain. The effective 18" assault range in every direction is usually plenty for my Ravenguard, so it should be enough for BAs too.

I routinely get multiple charges one after another in every game--far from rare.

Caffran9 wrote:DoA that is all in on the Jump/Drop Troops is super cowboy, and very limited in it's ability. It is very one dimensional and armies with strong shooting such as Mech IG will shoot it to bits without trouble (tested the match 10 times). Horde style armies like Kan Wall Orks (which aren't even consider a top list anymore) and Tyranids will have very favorable matchups agaisnt it too. The list needs depth and support. I've been testing a version with 5-6 Predators in it to much better results than something that goes all out for drop troops. The reason things like Predators are good is because you can always reserve them and they're still really good the turn they come on the table. Autolas Preds can move on 6" and shoot everything. Baal Preds are fast and can outflank. When you go first you have great shooting against some armies if you deploy them on the table. It also becomes a lot easier to deploy your troops on the table in relevant matchups (ie ones where it would be a strong consideration) because they have some support on their way across the table. It is a serious error to think that DoA BA must be played all drop. I thought like this before I finally caved and tried other things, and I'm finding a combination/hybrid to be much, much better.

Best advice so far.

Limiting yourself to one unit type? With no long range weapons for fire support at all? I get the idea that you are trying to "waste" your opponents anti-tank weapons by not including any tanks yourself, but also understand that playing that game makes your armies mono-dimensional, and creates massive blindspots and achilles heels (like the powerblob you discovered, and any mid to high model count nid or ork army would just abuse your lack of infantry control.) Then also consider that missile launchers and lascannons STILL have a wealth of targets, because you are a low model count space marine army with feel no pain. Missiles ignore your armor and your FNP, so its not like the 18 long fang space wolf army is crying because he doesn't have a predator to shoot at. He is just making you scoop entire combat squads with his missiles. Leman russes are doing the same thing but its much worse, as you can't get your meltas in range to stop it because its bubble wrapped by a power blob.

Also, for shooting that doesn't ignore cover saves. Keep in mind that a power blob will likely be under "incoming" orders on your drop turn, rocking a 2+ cover, and if you don't motivate them to move, any IG army won't be pressured in to charging you. Hanging back and trying to whittle them down with bolt pistols should seem insane to anyone. IG is a gunline, if you are not 100% dedicated to an aggressive playstyle, you are going to get shot to bits.

If you want to stay vehicle free, then you are consigning yourself to a sub-optimal list. Just like anyone would be doing if they denied themselves access to an entire FO slot, and were only allowing themselves the use of a single unit type. The good news is, there are plenty of 'vehicle only' mech armies out there that you will continue to crush with your DoA meltas. Just beware of balanced hybrid armies (like power blob IG, semi-foot dark eldar with beastmasters/wrack liquifier spam, semi-foot space wolves with plasma grey hunters) or hordes, their infantry models will ruin your plans.

The 2+ cover save is just more reason to rock them with flamers.

Anyways to say or imply mech IG ia auto win versus DoA is wrong. DoA is the best delivery system for a deep striking army versus mech IG. You have access to lots of meltas, I'm talking about multiple squads that can rock three or more meltas per unit. Guard can only do such much to keep all those meltas at arms length - it's really an uphill battle. A good DoA army is going to come in from reserve, wreck tanks then using them for cover and then assault other tanks. We've got Sanguinary Guard with the 2+ that's impervious to battle cannons and hellhounds. I'm not saying DoA is an auto win versus mech IG just that the reverse is also true. DoA is on the rise, it's one army that is paper to IG's rock.

The average mech IG army will have more tanks than the BA player will have melta guns. Maybe 2x as many tanks.

That is actually in the favor of DoA IMO.

1) Target saturation.
2) Impossible for IG to hide everything/keep it out of melta range.

Remember that pie plates scatter 67% of the time and cover also applies to Blood Angels.

No need to hide everything/keep it out of melta range. If you take out one meltagun for every tank they destroy, you win.

Terminus wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I don't think it's accurate to assume in general versus a good opponent you're going to be able to charge two full assault squads into one unit. It's nice when you can but purely situational in my mind.

Why not?

2 blobs+2pcs>2 assault squads+ priest in points.

You are not making any damn sense whatsoever.

First, the PCSs are completely different units doing completely different things (like slagging your armor) in a completely different part of the table. How do they figure into the equation?

Second, you are still dedicating two assault units and a character (about 500 points) against one ~225 point blob.

Third, by doing the above you are exposing yourself to counter-shooting from the whole IG gunline and maybe even counter-assault by the other blob. Expect to lose most of your attack force, if not all of it.

Fact remains, multiple charges are a rare opportunity/occurrence.

The average cost of 30 man blob is going to be closer to 250 once special weapons are added, but I'll say 225 for the sake of argument..

Why fight 225 points with 225 points when you can fight 225 points with 500 points?

The same logic goes for fighting space marines. A squad of CSM, Codex tac marines, or grey hunters costs about as much as an assault squad. Why would a BA player ever engage them in a fair 1 on 1 fight when they have the speed and maneuverability to double team them.

If a BA player can steamroll 225 points with 500 points 3 times across the table that means 1500 points just wiped 675 points from the table. Now the IG player will need to kills 30 assault marines in the next shooting phase (with 675 points gone from his army) to keep up with the BA player's assault phase.

Furthermore why would a BA army ever go into CC without a priest? A priest should always be in the equation unless the BA player is sloppy and gets his priest killed, and once the priests are dead a BA army is no longer a BA army, it's just a codex army painted red with assault squads as scoring units.

Blobs are fat, slow, and difficult to maneuver. If a BA player can't get a multi charge on one the BA player isn't a very good player.
Blobs are fat, slow, and difficult to maneuver. Given the massive size of a blob's footprint it's very likely that the next blob will be >12" after consolidation moves are finished. Even if a blob does get off a charge it's probably going to be into a combat squad, or the squad without the priest but still in the priest's 6" bubble. Net result should come to about 5 dead marines (3pw and 2 normal wounds, if IG gets lucky and scores 4 pw wounds they all go on 2 melta guns and it drops to 2 dead from pw and 2 dead from regular) and 7 dead guardsmen. Then the blob gets counter charged by 15 more assault marines and die in a single round of combat. Net result is the BA traded 100 points of assault marines for 450 points in blobs.

Terminus wrote:The average mech IG army will have more tanks than the BA player will have melta guns. Maybe 2x as many tanks.

Mech IG is an entirely different beast. Once assault marines get into a parking lot it gets ugly as the charge is deadlier than the melta guns.

Melta 2 shots=1.33 hits=1.16 ugly pen

Multi charge 25 regular str 5 CC attacks against multiple vehicles=12.5 hits=2 pens and 2 glances spread out across multiple vehicles (say 5). That probably means 3 of them will not shoot in the next shooting phase, and any immobilized/stunned results are really bad news.

3 S9 Pfist attacks=1.5 hits that glance on a 1 pen on a 2. A pair of regular pens is worse than a single melta pen.

That's just 1 squad an a priest. 2 squads can spit out about 4 glances and 7 pens in CC spread across a the entire parking lot.

Anyhow what I'm trying to say is Mech IG needs to spread out when fighting BA. If the vehicles cluster together into a parking lot they will die on droves once BA get into the parking lot.

If you can charge one blob with two squads of assault Marines then more power to you. You can't really argue against this strategy. If you think about it VV are a great unit versus blob in general since you are pretty much assured a charge... If you can hold them for a turn it's less shooting coming back at you and will make it easier for your other squads to assault.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:If you can charge one blob with two squads of assault Marines then more power to you. You can't really argue against this strategy. If you think about it VV are a great unit versus blob in general since you are pretty much assured a charge... If you can hold them for a turn it's less shooting coming back at you and will make it easier for your other squads to assault.

.... we're playing with blobs without taking Straken? Nothing is more fun then counter attack (and furious charge) on a blob.

Agreed... I've always been curious as to why he's not a more popular choice for blob IG.