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Post by: Laughing God
Now when I first started playing 40k I bought an army off ebay, threw it on the table and played my heart out. The models looked terrible, no effort put into modeling or painting, some of them just old ugly eldar models from 2nd ed. Long story short the army wasnt "mine" it was someone elses shoddy work.
I would be very dissapointed but I was new. Now I buy my models one at a time from a dealer, put them together with care and creativity, then diligently and lovingly paint every model. I wont even field the model till its painted to table top quality. My armies are "MINE" now. I bought them, put them together and painted them. I was a terrible painter but really it took practice and patience to get good enough were I was proud to field my work.
Now to the point of the thread. I get disgusted now when I go to my flgs and see veteran players walking into the shop with with a flavor of the month army they bought off ebay just to pwn people into the dust on the battlefield. BUT the models look terrible, there was no effort put into it, what are they getting out of all of it? Or they still have the same  y looking army they have had the last 2 years and have done nothing to fix it. Im to the point were I only play players who have put the effort to at least make there models tabel top quality as I have, now I dont mind a primered model here or there awaiting work because thats a sign of progress.
Does anyone agree with me? Am I just being pompus? Or are people just lazy hobbyists with no real respect for the game? idk In my mind this game is just more than just winning on the table top, the hobby as a whole is my needs to be considered.
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Post by: Brother SRM
The hobby vs. game conversation comes up a lot, really. Everybody has different parts of the game they enjoy. I seldom field an unpainted model, and I absolutely love the painting and modeling aspect of the hobby. Meanwhile I know folks who can't paint to save their lives, so they just don't (or pay folks like me to paint em up  )
Even then, some people play for fun, and others only want to win - namely the guys who you mention in your post fielding identical powergamey armies. Not everybody cares about the appearance of their models, which I think is kind of missing the point since the models are way cooler than the rules. I think you really need to be into painting, modeling, and gaming to get the most out of the game, but that's just me.
Also, the word is "hobbyist" - "Hobbist" is one letter off from Frodo and his buddies.
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Post by: Mukkin'About
Dude, it's a game. Some people see it only as a game and therefore they play the game to win the game. Don't be a nazi about it, not everyone has the time/skill/determination to paint and convert everything like you do.
If you're really that ticked, be elitist and only play with people like you. Don't be surprised if you don't get a lot of games in with that attitude
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Post by: Ultrafool
I die inside when I see X amount of money being spent on nice models and not even trying to spray paint them. I completely understand that some people cannot paint (shaky hands or whatnot), but its the people who can but simply don't want to makes me sad.
I guess its just me. I never play anything that is unpainted, unfinshed, or just something shoddy in my eyes.
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Post by: Laughing God
Mukkin'About wrote:Dude, it's a game. Some people see it only as a game and therefore they play the game to win the game. Don't be a nazi about it, not everyone has the time/skill/determination to paint and convert everything like you do.
If you're really that ticked, be elitist and only play with people like you. Don't be surprised if you don't get a lot of games in with that attitude
See your just one of those people who just like the gaming side of things. For me and people like me its not just a game, its a hobby. I set aside time to model and paint my pieces. With your logic why not just field green army men toys and call it good right? Its just a game.
I will only choose to play people like me who at least put SOME effort into there armies and I still find plenty of people to play with as I think most people involved in this hobby feel like I do and want to play visually decent models. I know most people cant paint an im ok with that. Just at least try to throw on the primer and a few colors, promise you'll get better at it the more you do so.
The only time ill willingly paint these shoddy "ebay armies" Ill call them is when I have to in tournaments otherwise I know at least there are plenty of decent hobbyists out there I can have a great beer and pretzels game with with fully/75% painted models the way the game was ment to be played  .
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Post by: Mattieau
I have inherited a trait from my mother, a trait that has cursed me with extremely shakey hands. This situation becomes worse if i get nervous. I tried to paint some of my models once and they looked like they'd been dipped in paint. Now i just dont bother in case i completely ruin more of my expensive models.
It doesnt help when apparently my only choice is to ruin my models or fork out more money for someone else to paint them, or not get to play at all because of elitists who won't play against my army because im unable to paint them.
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Post by: Laughing God
I too suffer from a condition known as "Essential Tremors" that causes my body to shake slightly for no reason, also got it genetically from my mother.
Found a funny solution to this problem, I drink alcohol when I paint. lol the alcohol calms my overactive nerves and my painting actually gets better the more inebrated I am. lol obiously to a point though. Not saying you should do this but makes for a fun night when you have nothing better to do so you sit around and paint and drink with some of our buddies. 
But really no matter how bad ur condition it just takes practice, and even a simple paint scheme will do just as long as ur trying thats what matters  . What armies do you play btw? I find painting eldar to be a hopeless chore for me so I just went with ulthewe and did the models black and bone white with a bit of red here and there and actaully when they are all together look great! check my album for examples. Just have to find what works for you 
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Post by: lordmoon
I look at the hobby as a chance to hang out friends or make new ones, painted toys or none make no difference. For me its the human experience that counts most. I don't mean to come off as being on a soapbox, if I do I apologize.
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Post by: Monster Rain
I find that a couple of beers makes my hands steadier too!
I prefer playing against good-looking armies, to the point where if I can politely avoid playing against a stranger with a bunch of gray plastic i will do so. With a friend I'll let them proxy and play unpainted to their heart's content.
Double standard, I know.
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Post by: Mattieau
I play as Eldar. Originally was painting them as Saim- Hann, which is essentially Ulthwe but red instead of black, but now i'm planning on eventually painting them as a custom craftworld with blue instead of black 
Also, sure, maybe i'd be like you and drinking makes me a better painter, but that would eventually get very expensive, and i'm under 18
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Post by: Shaman
Why don't you use your holy rage to cleanse their army from the table. You could even say stuff like this as you win..
"Begone unpainted scum."
"The Emperor protects those who are painted!"
"The heretic must be cleansed, but the unpainted heretic is an abomination!"
And so on..
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Post by: The Fragile Breath
I personally love to paint my army. I won't buy used models pretty much just because I love building and painting them.
That said, I can't get my army painted to a ridiculous amount of detail (even though I'd absolutely love to) because I constantly shake. Not just my hands, my whole body. Why? Asthma. The medicine I'm on to keep me breathing causes my body to shake. If someone were to refuse to play my army because it isn't painted to the level of detail theirs is, I would be sad, as I am unable to get it to a standard even I want.
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Post by: Thaanos
There are some people who are too busy to paint their armies. The BEST painter I know, former employee of my local GW(better painter then the manager, and the other employee who's been working there for 8 years) plays an unprimed Chaos Marine army, even though his painting skills make everyone in the store jealous. but he is usually too busy with work, family, and everything else in life to be able to sit down and finish painting all his stuff.
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Post by: Mattieau
Laughing God wrote:I too suffer from a condition known as "Essential Tremors" that causes my body to shake slightly for no reason, also got it genetically from my mother.
Found a funny solution to this problem, I drink alcohol when I paint. lol the alcohol calms my overactive nerves and my painting actually gets better the more inebrated I am. lol obiously to a point though. Not saying you should do this but makes for a fun night when you have nothing better to do so you sit around and paint and drink with some of our buddies.
But really no matter how bad ur condition it just takes practice, and even a simple paint scheme will do just as long as ur trying thats what matters . What armies do you play btw? I find painting eldar to be a hopeless chore for me so I just went with ulthewe and did the models black and bone white with a bit of red here and there and actaully when they are all together look great! check my album for examples. Just have to find what works for you
Just looked at your album. I am in awe of your supposedly 'shakey' work. I wish i could paint like that.
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Post by: Ailaros
yes, you're being pompous. Not everybody can paint, and, more crucually, not everybody has the time. Once you start balancing job, wife, and kids, it's not like there's a whole lot of time left to model (or so I hear).
That said, I agree with part of your hypothesis. I definitely notice that people seem to care MUCH less about models that they bought shoddily painted from someone else, and are MUCH more likely to pay special care and attention to models that they bought, built, and painted themselves.
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Post by: SumYungGui
Not having the time or ability to paint an army is one thing and I get that. Sometimes reality just doesn't work out that way for some people.
What really frosts my flakes is seeing people go out of the way to play Grey Plastic Marines so they can jump to whatever new 'overpowered' codex comes out. I will loathe someone like this to the ends of the earth, which by the way is roughly spherical so it has no ends.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
My Marines are my best painted army all bought off of ebay, slowly stripped reoutfitted and primered. Its onothing thats gonna win an award but ... However I love to play and generaly hate to model and paint. \
Just remember painting is the hobby, playing is the game.
You're going to punish someone because they don't enjoy the hobby?
If that's actually a punishment, It may be a case of you hate getting your butt kicked by a shoddily painted army
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
Shaman wrote:Why don't you use your holy rage to cleanse their army from the table. You could even say stuff like this as you win..
"Begone unpainted scum."
"The Emperor protects those who are painted!"
"The heretic must be cleansed, but the unpainted heretic is an abomination!"
And so on..
This.
Laughing God wrote: My armies are "MINE" now. I bought them, put them together and painted them. I was a terrible painter but really it took practice and patience to get good enough were I was proud to field my work.
I'm so proud of you Doug, all grown up and berating the masses, you've come so far since that day long ago when I told you to take your ungodly Eldar outside the chest and primer them black.
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Post by: zadelistol
Well. I would agree. I do like playing a painted army, or even a partially painted army. However now that I live an hour away from a store I don't get much chance to actually play, that and now that I have a job and various other things that must be done...I don't paint as much as I would like.
I do put effort into it though. I am trying to get my army completely painted before I go to a gaming store next.
With that said I still need to figure out an original/good paint scheme for my plague marines that still fit in with my army colors.(off topic yes,just felt like throwing it out there)
I really hate the fact that I don't have my army TTS yet.
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Post by: Steelmage99
Yes, you are being pompous.
This hobby of ours is one of many facets.
There is no reason to belittle those that prioritize a different aspect of the hobby than you.
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Post by: SagesStone
I have one of the few fully painted armies in the area. If I were to be elitist I would get no games. Instead I'll play as it's just a game and to each his own. But, maybe while doing it my army will inspire them to work on their army a bit more.
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Post by: Destrado
This is quite a mixed bag. I'll side with LG on some points, given the care I give my miniatures I would like them to be up against painted stuff too. I'll agree with other posters that some people have a lot to do already, but that shouldn't mean that unpainted armies are to reign.
Repeatedly playing the same unpainted/just primed army just gives off a lot of bad signs for me.
Off-topic to the painters with, erm, more difficulties, I would like to see and talk about your work, if you don't mind posting some (in case you already have, could you point me to it, by p.m. or right here? Thanks!)
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Post by: SagesStone
Click their name and check if they have images in the gallery then.
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Post by: Mattieau
More difficulties such as myself? I can go take a photo of my terrible guardians if you want, in comparison to my warp spider that i paid to be painted and my dry brushed wraithlord?
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Post by: InventionThirteen
Because I am blessed with steady hands and I have a rather healthy budding art career as a painter, I do appreciate playing against a well painted army. However as there are a lot of younger or inexperienced gamers with no idea how to use paint effectively I do encourage at least three colours, as an army really should have a funky uniform. I appreciate any effort in the painting and modeling department as long as it isn't a lazy attempt. I will point out that I am purely a fluff gamer, I play dark eldar, and I do win a fair bit, but not because of unfair tactics or POWER LISTS, so I guess I am part of the hobbyist aspect of the hobby as apposed to the competitive aspect.
I have painted my brothers army for him, as he was unsure of his skill with a brush and wanted them to look their best. I don't mind doing the odd freebie if it means that I get a new opponent enjoying the game as much as I do. Hope my five cents helps here
Great thread topic and debate!
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Post by: zadelistol
Destrado wrote:This is quite a mixed bag. I'll side with LG on some points, given the care I give my miniatures I would like them to be up against painted stuff too. I'll agree with other posters that some people have a lot to do already, but that shouldn't mean that unpainted armies are to reign.
Repeatedly playing the same unpainted/just primed army just gives off a lot of bad signs for me.
Off-topic to the painters with, erm, more difficulties, I would like to see and talk about your work, if you don't mind posting some (in case you already have, could you point me to it, by p.m. or right here? Thanks!)
All the ones I have uploaded are either painted, or mostly. My Pred in my gallery is mostly painted, has been for a while, and the lord with wings is soon to be stripped and someone is painting it for me.
EDIT: With having one extra day off this weekend from work and nothing planned, I will be painting more of my models...might even get to my raptors that never see the light of day...
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Post by: -Loki-
I think the problem people have is they don't like painting a model unless it's to the standard in the codices. People have a problem with fielding an army they painted when it's not absolutely jaw droppingly beautiful, so they just don't paint them at all.
These people need tor realize that a fully painted army, even to an average or below average standard, as long as it is consistent, looks fine on the tabletop, and really helps with the enjoyment of the game.
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Post by: Mattieau
Destrado wrote:This is quite a mixed bag. I'll side with LG on some points, given the care I give my miniatures I would like them to be up against painted stuff too. I'll agree with other posters that some people have a lot to do already, but that shouldn't mean that unpainted armies are to reign.
Repeatedly playing the same unpainted/just primed army just gives off a lot of bad signs for me.
Off-topic to the painters with, erm, more difficulties, I would like to see and talk about your work, if you don't mind posting some (in case you already have, could you point me to it, by p.m. or right here? Thanks!)
My guardian, warp spider, and wraithlord ( In pieces) are now in my gallery.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
My battlebuddy and I were rather disappointed at the state of the minis at 'Ard Boyz this year. When they lifted the "at least primed" rule, over half the armies were just slapped together minis. One guy that Jim played had "salamanders" and "ultramarines", well, kind of. I say this because it looked like a five year old with a bucket of Testors painted these things. He colored them to differentiate the squads.
That being said, Jim was getting complements left and right about the quality of his paint jobs. He only fields 4 incomplete models, terminators he needs to finish painting and putting on the crux shields.
Craftmanship seems to be a waning part of this hobby. Too many times I've seen kids who purchase the shiny new army before they're done even basecoating the old army; half the time its hard to tell what certain units are from a distance...
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Post by: Lexx
Personally I prefer playing against painted armies. It adds to a game and makes me respect someone more when they have taken the time to model, paint and base their units to at least a basic standard. I myself wouldn't field an unpainted army though. If you prefer playing painted armies OP then that's your choice. Everyone here gets something different from this hobby. Just dont be high and mighty to people at your local store. I get that some people are busy with other things but I've seen some armies that haven't had primer put to them in over two years!
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Post by: Pacific
When I play at my LGS, the general dividing line is that anyone under 18 has an army made up of unpainted/unassembled components, or say a Marine army that contains 3 or 4 different chapter colour schemes. Most of the older guys won't come to the table without a largely painted force.
Absolutely no-one prefers an army unassembled/unpainted army. And I still maintain that even the most hard-nosed, frenzied WAAC player still has room in their heart for the site of two well painted armies on the tabletop. Otherwise, I think they would just be at home playing online on the 360/ps2. My armies are not painted to anything like the standard you see on this or other forums, but I've made an effort with it, and I think that this transfers onto younger players who have yet to complete an army. This isn't an arrogant comment, but I'm sure of at least 1 or 2 younger players who have made greater efforts to get their own army finished after playing against me - we all respond to aesthetics at some level, I think even those who purport to just play the hardest army or just want the flavour of the month.
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Post by: svendrex
I think that there is a crucial difference that needs to be made.
There are three types of unpainted/not properly modeled armies.
1) The "I am trying something new to see if it works before I buy it"
There is nothing worse then buying a unit, building it, and them playing with it and realizing that you built the unit all wrong and it is now unplayable. I have no trouble playing against a "proxy" army if it is because the other player wants to try out a new book/unit to see if they like it better. This included partially unassembled armies while someone tests equipment.
Personal Story: I play Orks and started my army with two sets of black reach stuff and a battleforce. It was a long time until I found out how my orks play well. I still do not have the most "competitive" army, but it does well enough. After I painted a most of my stuff, I then had to go back and take a lot of the models apart once I got more bitz, like adding Power Klaws to my boys units.
2) The "I am just not finished...yet"
For some armies it takes a lot longer to paint them than others. I think that Necrons for example generally have simple paint schemes that look good and a low model count. Then you have an army like tyranids, who I think are harder to make them llok good and you have a huge model count. I do not mind playing someone who is working on their army, but wants to play now. Some armies can take years to finish, and sometimes you just want to play, to remind you why you are going through all of this torment.
Personal Story: Again, I played with some unpainted orks, simply because I did not want to wait until I was "done". I am still not done. I am currently updating my army, now that I have learned to paint better.
3) The "I will never put effort into these"
This is the guy who buys the models, plays the game, but will never put the effort into making his army look good. Often these will be the flavor of the month, but not always. I am not part of this group, so I have much less to say about it.
To sum it up:
I think that each player has a different personality on the tabletop, and it can sometimes show in their army. Someone who just plays for the playing, will put a lot of time and effort into list building, researching tactics, and play testing and they probably get annoyed by someone with a "fluffy" army who does not put up a good fight. The same as someone who likes the story and the look more than competitive play gets fed up with someone taking the flavor of the month.
In the end, you need to have a good match up of personalities on the tabletop to have a good game. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes in terms of an opponent. If you do not like someone, then just do not play them. Don't assume that just because their army has less paint on it, that it will not be a good game. You have no idea why that army is unpainted. Give everyone at least one chance, you might have a great game. You do not however need to give them a second chance.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Ailaros wrote:yes, you're being pompous. Not everybody can paint, and, more crucually, not everybody has the time. Once you start balancing job, wife, and kids, it's not like there's a whole lot of time left to model (or so I hear).
I managed to build and paint a marine company in 8 months while balancing a full time job (with a 90 minute commute), fiance and two little girls.
As long as you keep putting in an hour here and an hour there it adds up.
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Ailaros wrote:yes, you're being pompous. Not everybody can paint, and, more crucually, not everybody has the time. Once you start balancing job, wife, and kids, it's not like there's a whole lot of time left to model (or so I hear).
With this I agree, not the pompous part though.
Scott-S6 wrote:
I managed to build and paint a marine company in 8 months while balancing a full time job (with a 90 minute commute), fiance and two little girls.
As long as you keep putting in an hour here and an hour there it adds up.
Also true, but it's finding that hour ... 
Ailaros wrote:That said, I agree with part of your hypothesis. I definitely notice that people seem to care MUCH less about models that they bought shoddily painted from someone else, and are MUCH more likely to pay special care and attention to models that they bought, built, and painted themselves.
Hmm I kind of agree. Everything I buy off ebay I strip before playing with them as I would rather have a bare/undercoated miniature rather than someone elses paint job, but that's why I haven't used a lot of the stuff i've bought or i've resold it, as i've not had the time.
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Post by: Mukkin'About
Laughing God wrote:
See your just one of those people who just like the gaming side of things.
I will only choose to play people like me who at least put SOME effort into there armies :.
Thanks for taking a generalization about the people I have played with and then assuming that's MY perspective. I was noting that in the circles I have played, the game is generally considered a game, and people don't tear you a new one for not having your army painted. they play it competitively, like a game
I never said "I view this as a game" I said PEOPLE do.
I personally don't like to field plastic, but I sure as hell don't turn down a game with my buddies if I haven't finished my army. I don't know where you live, but if you can find a bunch of snobs with a lot of time on their hands and a colour wheel then great job guys! I'm a bit too perfectionist to bash out something at a "good enough to put on the table" quality so it takes me more time than most. You might wanna consider context before you make remarks that make you sound like a jerk
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Post by: Scott-S6
Pilau Rice wrote:Also true, but it's finding that hour ...
When my other half was watching rubbish TV would usually do it for me. And it gave me an excuse to not be paying attention to Coronation St, Eastenders, X-Factor, etc...
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Post by: ChaosGalvatron
i played with a lot of unpainted models. If i had waited till i had 1500pts of CSM painted up and based and flocked i wouldnt have played a game for years.
The army i play with CSM i paint at a very slow rate, but i have a BA (1.5K) army ive never played that ive painted(and is the army im most proud of appearance wise atm), and the makings of a necron army that is painted up.
Its probably because i bought and painted the BA army bit by bit, but my CSM army must be about 5K points worth, which is a bit intimidating to paint. Its a lot easier to say "ill paint my BA tactical squad then go buy a baal predator" than "i need to paint about 100 models. then i can get to my HQs/heavy support and oh look i just bought some terminators too."
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Post by: Mattieau
Scott-S6 wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:Also true, but it's finding that hour ...
When my other half was watching rubbish TV would usually do it for me. And it gave me an excuse to not be paying attention to Coronation St, Eastenders, X-Factor, etc...
What about those of us who are still required to study in 90% of our time off and like to sleep the other 10%?
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Scott-S6 wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:Also true, but it's finding that hour ...
When my other half was watching rubbish TV would usually do it for me. And it gave me an excuse to not be paying attention to Coronation St, Eastenders, X-Factor, etc...
My misses also watches the same dire television however, she has Sky+ so tends to record these. This was the time that I would do all my painting but alas. Accursed Sky+!
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Post by: Scott-S6
Mattieau wrote:Scott-S6 wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:Also true, but it's finding that hour ...
When my other half was watching rubbish TV would usually do it for me. And it gave me an excuse to not be paying attention to Coronation St, Eastenders, X-Factor, etc...
What about those of us who are still required to study in 90% of our time off and like to sleep the other 10%?
So you don't watch TV or play video games? At all? Because if you do, some of that time could be getting used to progress your army.
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Post by: Perkustin
For the painting i agree whole heartedly with the OP, i'm not gonna name names but one of the guys who does Bat Reps on this site is the worst offender i have ever seen. in one report He was running a BA las plas Razor spam list and it consisted of 3 crummy leman russes and some imperial fist rhinos and a mish mash of troops. I dont actually think there was a single RB model let alone a Las plas! I think at least primed and if you can't paint due to imfirmity just spray 'em the colour you want then dry brush a highlight and do the bases. For space marines this technique looks perfectly good.
I also don't buy the 'time' argument. When it comes to a hobby of this nature, if you've bought it that means you should certainly make good on your investment by spending what little time you can spare on it. For example i buy a videogame BECAUSE i FORESEE some time to spend on it i don't buy it and expect time to appear.The only kind of person i would excuse is someone with young children, because building that 'model' uses up your spare time. What people should say is they weren't in the 'Mood' to paint, it's perfectly acceptable it's not laziness everyone gets creative block. Any Other excuse just displays VERY poor time management.
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Post by: Mattieau
Scott-S6 wrote:Mattieau wrote:Scott-S6 wrote:Pilau Rice wrote:Also true, but it's finding that hour ...
When my other half was watching rubbish TV would usually do it for me. And it gave me an excuse to not be paying attention to Coronation St, Eastenders, X-Factor, etc...
What about those of us who are still required to study in 90% of our time off and like to sleep the other 10%?
So you don't watch TV or play video games? At all? Because if you do, some of that time could be getting used to progress your army.
I haven't played a video game in months and the only tv I watch is a little bit of the news before I leave for school
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Post by: zadelistol
Just to make a comment to your post Perkustin.
when I first started the game I had more time then I do now. My free time is at night due to my work schedule being at night and my days off end up being nights off.
I cant exactly turn lights on that would wake up my other family members just so I can paint. Granted there are some day off that I do see the light of day, but when that happens I have to help around the house and do various other tasks and run other errands.
As I stated before though, I have an extra day off this week due to getting a (un)lucky change to my schedule for the holidays and I have reserved that day strictly for my CSM to have some new paint and such.
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Post by: CT GAMER
Laughing God wrote:
See your just one of those people who just like the gaming side of things. For me and people like me its not just a game, its a hobby. I set aside time to model and paint my pieces. With your logic why not just field green army men toys and call it good right? Its just a game.
I also like the sportsmanship and pro-social side of things, the side that TFG ignores...
Look into it.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Playing with painted armies used to be practically sacred in wargaming. It still is in the historical branch.
GW have made unpainted armies more acceptable because it fits their business model.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Mattieau wrote:I haven't played a video game in months and the only tv I watch is a little bit of the news before I leave for school
Then you may be one of the 1% of people that genuinely doesn't have time to paint.
Most people who "don't have time to paint" really mean "I do have time to paint but playing xbox, watching battlestar galactica, etc is more important / easier". Automatically Appended Next Post: Kilkrazy wrote:Playing with painted armies used to be practically sacred in wargaming. It still is in the historical branch.
GW have made unpainted armies more acceptable because it fits their business model.
Very true. When I started back in 1st edition, unpainted models were simply not used. The one exception was if you'd bought and assembled it that day.
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Post by: Laughing God
Mattieau wrote:I play as Eldar. Originally was painting them as Saim- Hann, which is essentially Ulthwe but red instead of black, but now i'm planning on eventually painting them as a custom craftworld with blue instead of black
Also, sure, maybe I’d be like you and drinking makes me a better painter, but that would eventually get very expensive, and I’m under 18
Lol then no I don’t advise drinking if your state side. But I looked at some of your stuff and there is nothing wrong with that! You painted it, it’s to TTQ, and you put the time and effort into it.
Mattieau wrote:
Just looked at your album. I am in awe of your supposedly 'shakey' work. I wish I could paint like that.
Thank you, practice practice
-Loki- wrote:I think the problem people have is they don't like painting a model unless it's to the standard in the codices. People have a problem with fielding an army they painted when it's not absolutely jaw droppingly beautiful, so they just don't paint them at all.
These people need to realize that a fully painted army, even to an average or below average standard, as long as it is consistent, looks fine on the tabletop, and really helps with the enjoyment of the game.
QFT
Mukkin'About wrote:
Thanks for taking a generalization about the people I have played with and then assuming that's MY perspective. I was noting that in the circles I have played, the game is generally considered a game, and people don't tear you a new one for not having your army painted. They play it competitively, like a game
I never said "I view this as a game" I said PEOPLE do.
I personally don't like to field plastic, but I sure as hell don't turn down a game with my buddies if I haven't finished my army. I don't know where you live, but if you can find a bunch of snobs with a lot of time on their hands and a color wheel then great job guys! I'm a bit too perfectionist to bash out something at a "good enough to put on the table" quality so it takes me more time than most. You might wanna consider context before you make remarks that make you sound like a jerk
I apologize for the blanket statement. I understand not everyone has time to paint to a good quality or any quality. It’s just going to my hobby store every weekend and seeing a guy with a terrible looking army making no progress after months of owning the army. An army he just started because the codex is supposedly super OP.
I will politely avoid playing armies from these people just as I avoid people who are rule Nazi’s or just people who don’t make the game/hobby fun. If this makes me a pompous elitist duechbag then so be it, but ill have fun doing it .
Really it’s not impossible no matter how limited your time to just sit down once and a while and primer then slap some color on your models. I’ll play armies that aren’t fully painted as I have several work in progress armies, but if next time I see that player and they aren’t making any effort to at least try to work on it then I’ll just avoid playing them. Plain and simple, im a practical down to earth guy with a much larger life outside this hobby, but I just get more out of my experience by playing with hobbyists who try.
Example- A friend I frequently play is building an 1850 space wolf army, it’s all put together and slowly being painted week after week. He is only 19 and going about the hobby "the right way" in my mind. Then there is a senior player who’s prolly been going at it since rouge trader who bought his space wolf army used right after the codex dropped. The models are very old, chipped some are painted some aren’t, the conversions are terrible. He’s had this army the exact same for what almost a year now?! I won’t play this guy unless he’s using a different army, though I did barely beat him in tournament last week though that’s neither here nor there.
Point: both armies are unpainted but one is getting there and the other is just unsightly and a testament to the owners laziness.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW good debate guys, lets avoid offending or lashing out at anyone. I see the majority of us agree so lets keep it friendly please
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Post by: Pilau Rice
Kilkrazy wrote:Playing with painted armies used to be practically sacred in wargaming. It still is in the historical branch.
GW have made unpainted armies more acceptable because it fits their business model.
Scott-S6 wrote:
Very true. When I started back in 1st edition, unpainted models were simply not used. The one exception was if you'd bought and assembled it that day.
Ahh those were the days, I wouldn't be able to play at my FLGS now however though
The bare minimum at my FLGS was that your miniatures had to have the bases painted and be undercoated, I do tend to stick to this when playing there though even now.
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Post by: Destrado
n0t_u wrote:Click their name and check if they have images in the gallery then.
What is the problem with me asking it?
Thanks for the uploaded pics, guys. Sorry for the off-topic.
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Post by: Jubear
Its nice to play other painted armies, my army is 90% painted (not bad for orks) and I love it when I get to play other painted armies it makes the game look so much better.
That being said I did choose a color scheme that was going to be easy to do and used minimal colors that shaded well with just a few washes and I made sure I based them all the same and jobs a good un
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
The owner of our store,the wise and practical Dave has a house rule, if you wanna play its gotta be primed. I'm ok with this, as well was Ardboyz
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Post by: Mr Nobody
Me and my brother started warhammer at the same time, I have painted his army and mine, love the fluff, but I lose almost all the time. My brother is usually uninterested in painting, but always wins at the gaming aspect. Different people, different interests.
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Post by: Cheex
Laughing God wrote:Now when I first started playing 40k I bought an army off ebay, threw it on the table and played my heart out. The models looked terrible, no effort put into modeling or painting, some of them just old ugly eldar models from 2nd ed. Long story short the army wasnt "mine" it was someone elses shoddy work.
I would be very dissapointed but I was new. Now I buy my models one at a time from a dealer, put them together with care and creativity, then diligently and lovingly paint every model. I wont even field the model till its painted to table top quality. My armies are "MINE" now. I bought them, put them together and painted them. I was a terrible painter but really it took practice and patience to get good enough were I was proud to field my work.
Now to the point of the thread. I get disgusted now when I go to my flgs and see veteran players walking into the shop with with a flavor of the month army they bought off ebay just to pwn people into the dust on the battlefield. BUT the models look terrible, there was no effort put into it, what are they getting out of all of it? Or they still have the same y looking army they have had the last 2 years and have done nothing to fix it. Im to the point were I only play players who have put the effort to at least make there models tabel top quality as I have, now I dont mind a primered model here or there awaiting work because thats a sign of progress.
Does anyone agree with me? Am I just being pompus? Or are people just lazy hobbyists with no real respect for the game? idk In my mind this game is just more than just winning on the table top, the hobby as a whole is my needs to be considered.
I agree, to a point.
It's nice to play against well-painted armies. Hell, even armies that are painted to a barely-tabletop standard are preferable to unpainted minis.
However, you frequently get players who:
1. Aren't good at painting. It may come as a shock, but not everyone is capable of painting well. They might be able to pick it up with a bit of practice, but some people have a limited amount of spare time - which a lot of people would prefer to spend with friends or family rather than painting mandollies.
2. Don't enjoy painting. Another shock: not everyone enjoys the same aspects of the hobby as you do. I enjoy RTS games on my computer but simply can't get into FPS games, and I know a number of people who are the opposite. Are we somehow lesser gamers just because we don't enjoy the full spectrum?
3. Want to try new things out. So, they buy something straight from eBay so they can use it on the table immediately. How is this any different to you when you started off? Being an experienced player doesn't mean that you should be able to churn out painted minis at the speed of light, even veterans like to experiment with new things every now and then.
4. Are lazy and/or can't concentrate on a single project for long enough. I am one of these players; while my painting skill isn't too bad, I just can't paint without inspiration and motivation. I could get inspiration from looking at minis online, but as soon as I sit down at my painting desk I just draw a blank. My motivation dwindles for every second I am there, and by the time I pick up my paintbrush I'd rather be doing something else. That does not make me a lesser gamer, just an unmotivated one. Sometimes I'm able to sit and paint for hours, but most times I just know that I've got other things that I should be doing.
To be honest, your entire post comes across as saying "the world would be a better place if it was made up of me!" That might not be your intent, but that's certainly how it feels. The fact is, people are different and getting annoyed at them for being different (which is, at its heart, exactly what you're doing) is just plain wrong.
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Post by: Asherian Command
I bought an army from Ebay. Only because I needed vechiles and I have slowly started to paint them up, and the fact that I work on them everyday, and I have background lore on them and everything. Of course I did plan it out 6 months prior and how to do it. And I have painted the gun on my LaserBack and my marine squads are painted its just the tanks. But Yeah I don't see the problem. I basically break everything apart and put it back together.
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Post by: Laughing God
Lol im a hobby nazi?
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Post by: liam0404
@The OP
Sorry to be so brazen about this, but you are a complete prat if that is your attitude.
NOTHING pisses me off more when I walk into my local GW to play a game, when some of the people go "oh have you not painted that unit yet?"
Now i'm sorry that I work 12 hours a day, and that the ONLY opportunity I get to play warhammer is when I manage to get away from work early once a week. There are so many students in my shop, and they have all the time in the world to paint ot their hearts content. I sometimes struggle to find time to assemble, let alone paint.
Oh, and please don't label all us ebayers with the same brush - the only army i bought from Ebay was my necron army - if you want to call me a bandwagoner for that as well, well then youre a double idiot for that as well.
If you wan't to come and paint all my models for me be my guest - I love painting (despite the fact that im not very good at it), and getting into the shop to play with my friends is more important to me than worrying about fielding a 100% painted list.
If anyone is the terrible hobbyist, its you.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Calm down dude.
There's a lot of people that don't like looking at a gray plastic mess across the table from them, it's just the way it is. You've got every right to not paint your army, someone like the OP or myself has every right to not play against you.
Then, like every other thread like this, I suppose its time to say that if you really wanted to paint your army you'd find time.
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Post by: Frazzled
Modquisition on. Lets all take a breath and remember Dakka Rule #1: be polite.
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Post by: liam0404
Its so easy to say that, but its so innacurate its untrue.
Monday to friday, i'm out of the house at 7AM every day, and don't get home till well after 9PM. I occasioanlly get away from work early on a Thursday to go to GW to play some 40k.
Saturday and Sunday nights I work from 6PM to 12 PM in a second job. During the day I like to try to do things like get some groceries, or go to the gym, visit my girlfiend, that sort of stuff. Are you saying that I should drop these things to paint?
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Post by: Monster Rain
If you like painting as much as you say you do, you could paint on a Thursday night.
Since you asked, you have 86 hours in a week that you aren't working. Factoring in 8 hours of sleep a night (I sleep less than that) it leaves you 42. So if you could squeeze in 2 hours a week of painting you'd have 40 hours to do all those other things that you like to do. I don't even like painting all that much, and I'm a relatively busy guy, but I do it. And when I field something that isn't painted (which is rare) I don't make a lot of excuses about it.
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Post by: liam0404
Well for startters your math is wrong. 8 hours sleep a day * 7 days = 56 hours, so thats a total of 30 hours left.
That aside, after such long days (and after sitting at s desk for most of those), i'd usually rather be a little bit active by playing rather than sitting down again.
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Post by: Frazzled
Shaman wrote:Why don't you use your holy rage to cleanse their army from the table. You could even say stuff like this as you win..
"Begone unpainted scum."
"The Emperor protects those who are painted!"
"The heretic must be cleansed, but the unpainted heretic is an abomination!"
And so on..
I like your thinking 
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Post by: hendaron
I personnaly play with to army's:a fully painted space marine army,which i am repainting to my "new" standards,and a 40-50% paintedtyranid army
and thats because of too many gaunts.
my best friends armies are mostly painted and to a good (even IMO high) standard,and those who aren't painted
are being worked at. My brother paints his armies quite bad,but I forgive him,because of his Tourette.
At the store,there are some players,who 1.dont paint their army 2.paint their army verry bad,and dont want to improve them 3. just annoy me
So,when some person want to play a game,and if that person is in one of the three catogories above,it most likely an no-no,or they will have to have a very good reasson
except: 1. they are new to the hobby (we all have to start somewhere) 2. they are working on their painting skills 3. i like them/friends
phew,that was a lot to type (for me)
General Opinion: people who (work on) painting = good,not=bad
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Post by: Chongara
liam0404 wrote:Well for startters your math is wrong. 8 hours sleep a day * 7 days = 56 hours, so thats a total of 30 hours left.
That aside, after such long days (and after sitting at s desk for most of those), i'd usually rather be a little bit active by playing rather than sitting down again.
Very True. There is only so much time to go around in the day, and you just have to have your priorities. I like painting (I'm not in love with it, but I like it) and have spent a fair bit of $ getting the supplies to paint/base my models properly. However, only a small fraction of my army is painted and making progress is slow. The fact of the matter is my free time is limited and other things just have a higher priority. It doesn't mean a dislike painting or wouldn't like to have a fully painted/based/assembled army, just that I'd like to have a fully painted/based/assembled army less than I'd like to do other things.
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Post by: Laughing God
liam0404 wrote:@The OP
Sorry to be so brazen about this, but you are a complete prat if that is your attitude.
NOTHING pisses me off more when I walk into my local GW to play a game, when some of the people go "oh have you not painted that unit yet?"
Now i'm sorry that I work 12 hours a day, and that the ONLY opportunity I get to play warhammer is when I manage to get away from work early once a week. There are so many students in my shop, and they have all the time in the world to paint ot their hearts content. I sometimes struggle to find time to assemble, let alone paint.
Did you read any of my posts? Im a U.S. Marine and also work 10 to 11 hour days, besides weekends and even then sometimes I have to go into work. And Im required to go to formations and physical and combat training on my "free time". This plus an active social life leads to not alot of freetime. Its taken me 6 months to paint 1750 pts worth of models... not to the highest quality either, just to what I consider table top quality.
liam0404 wrote:Oh, and please don't label all us ebayers with the same brush - the only army i bought from Ebay was my necron army - if you want to call me a bandwagoner for that as well, well then youre a double idiot for that as well.
Im not besmurching ebay shoppers, I buy lots off ebay, honestly much cheaper than the criminal prices GW charges. But when I see some one buy a terrible looking army off ebay then do nothing to improve it for a year, it says something to the person obiously not putting any effort into their hobby. And at what point did I call anyone a bandwagoner just because you buy on ebay? alot of bandwagoners buy off ebay but not everyone who buys off ebay is a bandwagoner.
liam0404 wrote:If you wan't to come and paint all my models for me be my guest - I love painting (despite the fact that im not very good at it), and getting into the shop to play with my friends is more important to me than worrying about fielding a 100% painted list.
Once again ur lack of ability to read my previous posts clearly is showing. Im not looking for 100% painted lists just people trying to take an active part in the hobby outside of gaming. Really if you thing about it whats the point of buying GW minis at all if they are going to look like crap anyway and you dont give a gak about painting and modeling... just field paper clips and army men for all I care. But the reality is people do care they want to field models that represent there army.
liam0404 wrote:If anyone is the terrible hobbyist, its you.
lol you seem passionate about this to the point of insecurity. Im going to repeat all this again since you obiously didnt read my posts or you miss understood. I understand people dont have freetime to paint or model all the time. I understand people budget requires them to shop on ebay. I know some people cant paint well so just dont even bother trying. I know not everyone is like me...
What I dont understand is why some people dont try to put a little more into their hobby. Just one model a week or something if you dont have time. If your a bad painter, practice. What the excuse for not at least trying. I dont resent none painted/poorly painted armies. Id just like to see more effort esspecially when I somehow find the time to do so. Esspecially for those guys who roll into the tournament with there crappy SW they bought off ebay a year ago and roll tournaments with 6 TW cav and 3 squads of LFs. Its BS and I wont play these people outside of tournament.
So in your post you called me a prat, and idiot, and a terrible hobbyist. Ive been noting but rational, polite, and practical on this thread so far and you post this emotionally driven rant. Please take time to read my other posts and try to post like a mature adult.
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Post by: Frazzled
What part of mellow are you people not getting?
last warning then the banhammer starts people.
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Post by: Lexx
That weiner dog on the right looks evil..
But yes. I prefer playing against painted armies. And given the choice Ill pick a painted army to fight against over a non painted force. Its not snobbery. I just find it far more enjoyable to see a painted up army. I like to talk about conversions, posing, basing and paint jobs of models during games. As this can sometimes give me ideas I wouldn't normally come up with for my own projects. Plus gives them a compliment. Anyone who takes the time to get an army to basic tabletop quality has my respect. ( By that I mean 3 colours minimum and bases done. )
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
My God, the hounds of Frazzled!
On the subject though, always good to see you agitating the masses Doug, though I have to say I side with you, though in a less vehement manner.
I view those of us who paint (irregardless of quality) as a form of 'Old Guard' if you will, almost like the last vestiges of some of the traitor legions, those who hold to the traditions and titles that have been there from the beginning.
On the other hand these "Terrible Hobbyists" who refuse to paint their armies or field hordes of "counts as" models represent those portions of the legion that no longer give a damn about old traditions, and rank, and pride. They only care about power and victory if you will, seeing everything else as useless sideline fluff.
Suffice to say I usually just look on with sadness at this trend, I try to stamp it out by encouraging people to paint, I'll even go out of my way to help people paint their minis just to show them there's more than just "winning the game".
Remember there was a time not so long ago when a certain someone's Eldar army was in the exact same spot, It takes positive reinforcement and the hand of a mentor and this cancer can be cured. However there will always be those who refuse and there's nothing you can do about it, you just have to accept the fact that they are lost to us and mourn their loss to the community.
(this metaphor was brought to you by Soul Hunter, excellent read lol)
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Post by: Laughing God
Frazzled wrote:What part of mellow are you people not getting?
last warning then the banhammer starts people.
Got my chi back
1000 pardons me lord Automatically Appended Next Post: Brother Heinrich wrote:
Remember there was a time not so long ago when a certain someone's Eldar army was in the exact same spot, It takes positive reinforcement and the hand of a mentor and this cancer can be cured. However there will always be those who refuse and there's nothing you can do about it, you just have to accept the fact that they are lost to us and mourn their loss to the community.
(this metaphor was brought to you by Soul Hunter, excellent read lol)
Yes I can say without a doubt that if not for you my eldar would look awful and id have never gotten the lessons I needed to complete my flesh tearers...now if I could just teach U how to win... lol
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Post by: UsdiThunder
Look refusing to play people because they are painted is what is wrong with 40k. The sense of eliteism divides the community that enjoy 40k.
There should be no reason to turn anyone from 40k unless they are TFG, or an all out cheater. Unlike the elitists I will play anyone wiling to play, I will teach them if they don't know how to play, if they are into painting I will help them, but will not turn anyone away without a real good reason.
The more poeple into our hobby the stronger it becomes. The elitists are a big reason why 40k is not a bigger hobby. People are willing to spend $37.25 to buy a 10 pack of marines, but not put up with someone looking down thier noses at them because they'd rather get to playing, than paint their models.
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Post by: liam0404
UsdiThunder wrote:Look refusing to play people because they are painted is what is wrong with 40k. The sense of eliteism divides the community that enjoy 40k.
There should be no reason to turn anyone from 40k unless they are TFG, or an all out cheater. Unlike the elitists I will play anyone wiling to play, I will teach them if they don't know how to play, if they are into painting I will help them, but will not turn anyone away without a real good reason.
The more poeple into our hobby the stronger it becomes. The elitists are a big reason why 40k is not a bigger hobby. People are willing to spend $37.25 to buy a 10 pack of marines, but not put up with someone looking down thier noses at them because they'd rather get to playing, than paint their models.
This right here, is the most sensible and 100% correct thing said in this thread.
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Post by: Laughing God
UsdiThunder wrote:
There should be no reason to turn anyone from 40k unless they are TFG, or an all out cheater. Unlike the elitists I will play anyone wiling to play, I will teach them if they don't know how to play, if they are into painting I will help them, but will not turn anyone away without a real good reason.
The more poeple into our hobby the stronger it becomes. The elitists are a big reason why 40k is not a bigger hobby. People are willing to spend $37.25 to buy a 10 pack of marines, but not put up with someone looking down thier noses at them because they'd rather get to playing, than paint their models.
See im not turning them away. I feel the same in helping new players and guiding them down the 40k path. But if 6 month later and they are still grey untouched models Ill prolly start to show less interest and veer more toward a player with a painted army. But if even a few of their minis are getting done ill glady play.
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Post by: UsdiThunder
But in refusing to play them, is turning them away.
Refusing to play them is a rejection. If you are up front about it you have rejected them because they are lazy, if you are passive aggressive about they have no clue about why you won't play them and come off as an elitist snob.
Real Reasons to refuse to play a player
1. TFG (It can't be helped, you run across these guys no matter the hobby)
2. Known cheaters (We don't need these people in our hobby)
3. Known thieves (We don't need to encourage these scumbags to steal from the store, or other players)
edited for spelling
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Post by: Monster Rain
liam0404 wrote:Well for startters your math is wrong. 8 hours sleep a day * 7 days = 56 hours, so thats a total of 30 hours left.
Meh, I attempted that a bit too early in the morning.
The point stands. If you wanted to paint, you'd find time.
UsdiThunder wrote:Look refusing to play people because they are painted is what is wrong with 40k. The sense of eliteism divides the community that enjoy 40k.
There should be no reason to turn anyone from 40k unless they are TFG, or an all out cheater. Unlike the elitists I will play anyone wiling to play, I will teach them if they don't know how to play, if they are into painting I will help them, but will not turn anyone away without a real good reason.
The more poeple into our hobby the stronger it becomes. The elitists are a big reason why 40k is not a bigger hobby. People are willing to spend $37.25 to buy a 10 pack of marines, but not put up with someone looking down thier noses at them because they'd rather get to playing, than paint their models.
How is it elitism to prefer one thing over another. Part of my enjoyment of the hobby is pitting one painted army against another on a scenic table, creating an enjoyable visual experience. I'm not saying people shouldn't join the hobby, I just wish that painting was a bigger priority for some people.
That said, if someone is showing progress in their painting I don't have a problem with it. If they continually field the same heap of gray plastic for months going into years then it becomes more of an issue for me. Also, if someone is just getting into the hobby they obviously get more slack about this than a veteran.
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
Laughing God wrote:now if I could just teach U how to win...lol
Et tu brutus?
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Post by: Bonegrinder
Mukkin'About wrote:Dude, it's a game. Some people see it only as a game and therefore they play the game to win the game. Don't be a nazi about it, not everyone has the time/skill/determination to paint and convert everything like you do.
If you're really that ticked, be elitist and only play with people like you. Don't be surprised if you don't get a lot of games in with that attitude
I have to agree with this, some people get into models just to collect and build, some just to paint and for others only to game etc. So don't get too bent out of shape over it and enjoy the hobby.
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Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
It is a point of pride for me that I almost always field a fully painted army, except during January, when I was refitting, repainting, and expanding my Tyranids, all at the same time.
That being said, I will not refuse to play you if you do not paint things. I might mock you if you never poaint things, but never refuse to play.
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Post by: Crantor
Ok, I'm going to try and stay within the Mod guidelines here. Not trying to offend anyone but this entire thread is full of it.
First off, it is a hobby. A HOBBY. Not some professional association or secret cult with guidelines. My job requires me to be physically and mentally fit, therefore yes I need to take the time (some of it my own) to maintain it. What I do with my extra hour is my own effing business and no one here should be lecturing anyone here about how they spend THEIR own time, whether its x-box, TV, WoW or whatever other stuff some people find useless. Stick it in your hat.
As far as the OP goes, get off his case. He preferes to play painted armies. Fine, that's his business. He stated why and so be it. It's is how HE wants to play HIS hobby.
If anybody told me how I should play or when to conduct MY hobby I'd tell him to eff off. Helpful tips and constructive criticism is one thing, and I appreciate that. I started this game with a book that let you cut out paper images of models and use them on the table. My first models were crap and now they are better than crap. But I don't presume to tell people how they should do things based on how I do things.
"Hey dude, you army looks nice, but you are a crappy tactician. Maybe you should read more Sun Tzu. I won't play you until you get better because I'm getting nothing from this" Sheesh.
If somebody does not want to play me because my models look bad in his view he's probably someone I don't want to play anyway so we both win. He wants to play Eavy Metal quality armies and I don't want to play guys like that. But at least I can respect his choice in what is a HOBBY.
Now, give me your lunch money.
PS. Just a note, when you title a thread Terrible Hobbyists, expect some reaction. I'm a terrible writer, but I enjoy writing. That does not make me a terribel Hobbyist because of it. Same with this.
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Post by: Frazzled
UsdiThunder wrote:But in refusing to play them, is turning them away.
Refusing to play them is a rejection. If you are up front about it you have rejected them because they are lazy, if you are passive aggressive about they have no clue about why you won't play them and come off as an elitist snob.
Real Reasons to refuse to play a player
1. TFG (It can't be helped, you run across these guys no matter the hobby)
2. Known cheaters (We don't need these people in our hobby)
3. Known thieves (We don't need to encourage these scumbags to steal from the store, or other players)
edited for spelling
1. TFG (It can't be helped, you run across these guys no matter the hobby)
2. Known cheaters (We don't need these people in our hobby)
3. Known thieves (We don't need to encourage these scumbags to steal from the store, or other players)
4. I just don't ing want to play you.
Each to own. If someone doesn't want to play someone else thats their business.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Crantor wrote:Ok, I'm going to try and stay within the Mod guidelines here. Not trying to offend anyone but this entire thread is full of it.
First off, it is a hobby. A HOBBY. Not some professional association or secret cult with guidelines. My job requires me to be physically and mentally fit, therefore yes I need to take the time (some of it my own) to maintain it. What I do with my extra hour is my own effing business and no one here should be lecturing anyone here about how they spend THEIR own time, whether its x-box, TV, WoW or whatever other stuff some people find useless. Stick it in your hat.
Who's lecturing?
Just saying don't say you don't have time, just be honest and say that painting isn't a priority.
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
Crantor wrote:I'm a terrible writer, but I enjoy writing. That does not make me a terribel Hobbyist because of it. Same with this.
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Post by: wolfshadow
The places that I play (Local GW store included) used to have a '3 color minimum' rule. IE the majority of your minis to even be feilded, needed to be painted at least 3 colors. So you couldn't slap down a primed mini and call it done.
I think that that is a reasonable stadard to expect. Basc coat and throw a couple of dots in the eyese and paint a shoulderpad a different color. Thats about all I expect. Some effort please.
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Post by: Crantor
Monster Rain wrote:Crantor wrote:Just saying don't say you don't have time, just be honest and say that painting isn't a priority.
Is it so inconcievable that someone might not have time? And you would question his honesty and insist that painting isn't a priority for him?
Is there a guideline for that time? Yeah, I painted every night one week in septembre. Octobre and Novembre were busy so I didn't have time to paint. True story. I guess that means painting isn't a priority. I guess work, family, social events, my son's birthday, making love to myself and eating chips took up most of my time (not all in that order and certainly to concurrently).
If a guy says he didn't have time then so be it. It happens. Everyone manages time differently. Automatically Appended Next Post: Brother Heinrich wrote:Crantor wrote:I'm a terrible writer, but I enjoy writing. That does not make me a terribel Hobbyist because of it. Same with this.
Yes...yes...exactly...nothing to see here...move along.
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Post by: agnosto
Keep your hobby away from my game. 
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Post by: Crantor
Keep your gaming away from my hobby
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Post by: Arschbombe
These threads always end the same way. You're talking about standards and the rules for standards are very simple.
People who have higher standards than I have are elitists, snobs, popinjays and they're ruining the hobby.
People who have lower standards than I have are lazy, dirtbags, ne'er do wells and they're ruining the hobby.
These rules parallel with how people think about other people's driving. People who drive faster than I do are maniacs who endanger everyone else on the road. People who drive slower than I do are incompetent morons who endanger everyone else on the road.
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Post by: Brother Heinrich
Arschbombe wrote:These threads always end the same way. You're talking about standards and the rules for standards are very simple.
People who have higher standards than I have are elitists, snobs, popinjays and they're ruining the hobby.
People who have lower standards than I have are lazy, dirtbags, ne'er do wells and they're ruining the hobby.
These rules parallel with how people think about other people's driving. People who drive faster than I do are maniacs who endanger everyone else on the road. People who drive slower than I do are incompetent morons who endanger everyone else on the road.
surrounded by morons!
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Post by: UsdiThunder
Let's face it. You are always going to have this kind of division whether it is 40k, or another activity. All I am saying is that as a person who enjoys this hobby and game I can do one of two things
1. Only play those I think deserve to have a game with me, only if they meet my requirements.
2. Be truly open and play everyone except the 3 exceptions I mentioned.
The first excludes people, the second includes, and I'd rather be one of the ones including people. I've seen it for years.
You get the mentality of exclusion going then you wonder why there aren't as many players anymore. I've seen it happen with MTG, DnD, Battletech, Pokemon, Yugioh, Heroclix, etc...
edited for grammar
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Post by: Scott-S6
Monster Rain wrote:Just saying don't say you don't have time, just be honest and say that painting isn't a priority.
This is my pet peeve also. If folks with unpainted armies come right out and say "I don't like painting" or "I'd rather be playing xbox/spending time with kids/whatever" I'd respect them more than the "I don't have time" crowd since, for the vast majority of them, that's simply not true.
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Post by: Crantor
UsdiThunder wrote:Let's face it. You are always going to have this kind of division whether it is 40k, or another activity. All I am saying is that as a person who enjoys this hobby and game I can do one of two things
1. Only play those I think deserve to have a game with me, only if they meet my requirements.
2. Be truly open and play everyone except the 3 exceptions I mentioned.
The first excludes people, the second includes, and I'd rather be one of the ones including people. I've seen it for years.
You get the mentality of exclusion going then you wonder why there aren't as many players anymore. I've seen it happen with MTG, DnD, Battletech, Pokemon, Yugioh, Heroclix, etc...
edited for grammar
Good post that summarizes it.
As long as you respect both 1 and 2, then so be it. The OP has his way of enjoying the game. I have no problem with it. It's not the same way I like to play. Just as good.
To be fair though I think more players leave the game due to prices, rule changes or lack of gaming opportunities or even life changes..
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Post by: Monster Rain
Crantor wrote:To be fair though I think more players leave the game due to prices, rule changes or lack of gaming opportunities or even life changes..
For me, 40k was always about hanging out with friends.
Since I moved, I find that I enjoy the hobby a lot less when playing with strangers.
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Post by: Element206
I totally agree with you. I think its a imperative neccesity to embrace both aspects of the game equally. Frankly, ive never been able to comprehend the mentality of a player who doesnt commit ANY level of effort into their models. Why are you playing the game? Becuase its fun? Well there are plenty of fun games that dont require you to paint...go play hero clix!!! Its incredibly disparaging to me as a hobbyist when someone fields an army that isnt painted and no effort has gone into it. Personally it detracts for the experience as a whole. I dont enjoy playing the game simply to play it; if I did I wouldnt waist my time and money with 40k, I would just play a board game. What captivates my interests is the presentation of the game. I really submerge myself and my imagination when I see nicely painted armies in opposition on the battle field with great scenery. It propels my excitement and keeps me enjoying this hobby. Even if your a terrible painter....painting your models can only help you in the long run. I dont think I have to run down the positives of practicing your painting skills, but there are no negatives to practicing. Besides, with the price of these units, it just makes no sense to me why players dont take their time to paint the characters and find satisfaction in painting. PAINT YOUR ARMIES -- ITS PART OF THE GAME! Automatically Appended Next Post: Mukkin'About wrote:Dude, it's a game. Some people see it only as a game and therefore they play the game to win the game. Don't be a nazi about it, not everyone has the time/skill/determination to paint and convert everything like you do.
If you're really that ticked, be elitist and only play with people like you. Don't be surprised if you don't get a lot of games in with that attitude
congradulations, you have won the "most incoherent and ignorant babel post ive seen today" award.
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Post by: Laughing God
Monster Rain wrote:liam0404 wrote:Well for startters your math is wrong. 8 hours sleep a day * 7 days = 56 hours, so thats a total of 30 hours left.
Meh, I attempted that a bit too early in the morning.
The point stands. If you wanted to paint, you'd find time.
UsdiThunder wrote:Look refusing to play people because they are painted is what is wrong with 40k. The sense of eliteism divides the community that enjoy 40k.
There should be no reason to turn anyone from 40k unless they are TFG, or an all out cheater. Unlike the elitists I will play anyone wiling to play, I will teach them if they don't know how to play, if they are into painting I will help them, but will not turn anyone away without a real good reason.
The more poeple into our hobby the stronger it becomes. The elitists are a big reason why 40k is not a bigger hobby. People are willing to spend $37.25 to buy a 10 pack of marines, but not put up with someone looking down thier noses at them because they'd rather get to playing, than paint their models.
How is it elitism to prefer one thing over another. Part of my enjoyment of the hobby is pitting one painted army against another on a scenic table, creating an enjoyable visual experience. I'm not saying people shouldn't join the hobby, I just wish that painting was a bigger priority for some people.
That said, if someone is showing progress in their painting I don't have a problem with it. If they continually field the same heap of gray plastic for months going into years then it becomes more of an issue for me. Also, if someone is just getting into the hobby they obviously get more slack about this than a veteran.
QFT
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Post by: Frazzled
congradulations, you have won the "most incoherent and ignorant babel post ive seen today" award.
Congratulations, you just won the first warning of the day.
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Post by: loranafaeriequeen
I fall on the "I love painting side of things." I've had my army since May and I've yet to play a game because I am still trying to get them put together and painted. I do have a little bit of an issue, however, because it seems that most people fall on the gaming side of things. I was hoping to find a group of people to paint with, and a lot of people tend to paint alone, but game in groups. I also have a job, a toddler, and a house to take care of. I tend to paint on Saturday nights in Starbucks rather than go to the hobby store because the hobby stores I know of are around an hour away.
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Post by: Laughing God
loranafaeriequeen wrote:I fall on the "I love painting side of things." I've had my army since May and I've yet to play a game because I am still trying to get them put together and painted. I do have a little bit of an issue, however, because it seems that most people fall on the gaming side of things. I was hoping to find a group of people to paint with, and a lot of people tend to paint alone, but game in groups. I also have a job, a toddler, and a house to take care of. I tend to paint on Saturday nights in Starbucks rather than go to the hobby store because the hobby stores I know of are around an hour away.
Do any of your friends play?
What my gaming club used to do before big tournaments was have a "paint day" (usually a saturday afternoon) to make sure everyones army had at least primer and 3 basic colors on it which was what was required at tournaments (which I still think should be required...). We would all sit down and have a few drinks put some music on or a movie and paint the evening away and BSing, all the while exchanging tips and paint and even helping paint each others models when ours were done. You can organize something like this in your area maybe?
If not then get the fam involved lol
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Post by: Element206
Laughing God wrote:
What my gaming club used to do before big tournaments was have a "paint day" (usually a saturday afternoon) to make sure everyones army had at least primer and 3 basic colors on it which was what was required at tournaments (which I still think should be required...). We would all sit down and have a few drinks put some music on or a movie and paint the evening away and BSing, all the while exchanging tips and paint and even helping paint each others models when ours were done. You can organize something like this in your area maybe?
If not then get the fam involved lol
That is awesome. Ive been trying to find players and coordinate something like this for years....without any success :(
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Post by: Avatar 720
I cannot paint, nor do I enjoy painting, ergo very few of my models are painted (and since I am also a perfectionist, none are painted to a standard i'd like to be at).
I do, however, enjoy modelling and gaming. I can spend a long time looking at the bitz for a model to figure out a nice pose or which bitz would look good swapped around. I also like the interactions during a game, and the tactical aspect of it, as well as teaching new people and learning from my mistakes.
However, I am easily discouraged when mistakes cannot easily be rectified. For example, I like writing in my spare time, but if it comes to a point where I need to re-wrtie a whole chapter, I don't like doing it, I will make excuses for keeping the current chapter as it is, and i'm not even able to convince myself with them. This is the same with painting.
I don't like the thought of stripping my models and starting over, nor do I like re-applying layers. Since I have random violent twitches, I often coat a painted part in the colour on my brush at the time, and if I can see it, even if it's just a speck, I will try to re-apply the layer, which either ruins the layering on that part, or I coat another painted bit in the process.
I also cannot comprehend techniques. Drybrushing, highlighting, weathering... they're all beyond me. I daren't even attempt to thin my paints or mix new ones because I don't want to ruin them, and I don't know the exact measurements in each ratio (which bugs me, i'm not good with random, I need exact).
I also do not find the joy in painting. I look at a finished model and instead of thinking "That's great, job done." i'm left thinking "Hmmm, it'll do..." because i'm terrified of trying to rectify mistakes and ruining the model due to past experience of doing that.
Painting also feels too much like a chore. I find myself looking at the clock or my watch constantly, or I want to do something else like make an army list or go on my computer or watch TV.
I also cannot do 'bare minimum' jobs based on what the internet's idea of the easiest scheme is. I want to paint my own scheme with my own backstory. The backstory is the easy bit for me, really, it is; the painting is the hard part. I also don't want to make up a backstory for a suggested 'easy colour scheme'. I want it to be my own, all mine.
Coating your models in black, white and silver with a green base dunked in sand might be easy, but I won't like it. I won't feel i've accomplsihed anything apart from cutting corners to please other people. These models are mine, I built them, I made their backstory, I want to play them my way and I want them to be painted my way, but I can't fulfill that last bit.
Sure, I might have a painted army a few years from now, but until then you'll have to put up with the army of undercoats, because I did not pay for an army that I will be forced to paint because some else wants it painted. If you want it painted so badly, you do it, here's the scheme, go crazy, but remember that this is for your benefit, not mine; so don't expect any payment.
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Post by: Monster Rain
So the fact that your models won't be perfect keeps you from painting them at all?
Sounds like a cop-out, if I'm honest. Just say you don't want to paint, don't try to rationalize it.
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Post by: Avatar 720
Monster Rain wrote:So the fact that your models won't be perfect keeps you from painting them at all?
Sounds like a cop-out, if I'm honest. Just say you don't want to paint, don't try to rationalize it.
It's a factor, I never stated it was the sole reason.
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Post by: liam0404
Monster Rain wrote:So the fact that your models won't be perfect keeps you from painting them at all?
Sounds like a cop-out, if I'm honest. Just say you don't want to paint, don't try to rationalize it.
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Of course we should be allowed to justify why we can't paint as much as we'd like. The players pro-100% painted have justified their argument, why can't we?
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Post by: Monster Rain
liam0404 wrote:Monster Rain wrote:So the fact that your models won't be perfect keeps you from painting them at all?
Sounds like a cop-out, if I'm honest. Just say you don't want to paint, don't try to rationalize it.
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Of course we should be allowed to justify why we can't paint as much as we'd like. The players pro-100% painted have justified their argument, why can't we?
There's a difference between justification and rationalization, I think.
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Post by: Avatar 720
Monster Rain wrote:liam0404 wrote:Monster Rain wrote:So the fact that your models won't be perfect keeps you from painting them at all?
Sounds like a cop-out, if I'm honest. Just say you don't want to paint, don't try to rationalize it.
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Of course we should be allowed to justify why we can't paint as much as we'd like. The players pro-100% painted have justified their argument, why can't we?
There's a difference between justification and rationalization, I think.
There is, but justification would be explaining the reasoning behind something that is rational. You cannot rationalise something that is already rational.
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Post by: liam0404
So what's rational about the painted camp? Refusal to play certain people who don't have painted models? That's rational behaviour?
Don't get me wrong, there are some players who should be avoided for reasons already listed in this thread, but not having a painted army is definitely a form of elitism.
My stance is that if a player has gone to the trouble of assembly or conversions, they are ready to play. Its tantamount to schoolyard bullying. Have you considered that some players/kids can't afford to buy the materials they need? And rather than paint witg stuff they are unhappy with, they'd prefer to wait?
Is that wrong? Not one damn bit.
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Post by: Laughing God
Hmmm this is very two sided Im seeing.
The painters agree with me because they want to see painted armies since they worked so hard on there army. So they give nonpainters the cold shoulder and casually avoid playing them.
The nonpainters disagree with me (strongly lol) because they cant paint, dont have time, or dont enjoy it. So they tell painters "well if you dont like them then dont play me" or "if it bugs you so much then why dont you paint them".
There must be a middle ground thou.
If you dont know how to paint or are terrible as is: Seek help, have someone with experience teach you, and practice practice practice.
If you dont have time: Slow and steady, just do a little bit at a time when you can.
If you dont like painting at all: If your just being lazy (really think about it)... stop it. Make it fun! Paint with ur friends! pop in a movie or music and paint with that in ur background. Once again take your time and paint when you have the freetime. If you abosolutely can not stand it... idk man pay someone else to paint them.
And Painters-
Realize that not everyone is like you. Some people dont find joy in painting, some just suck at it, some dont have the time. Understand this and get to know the people you play with. Its a social game! Maybe offer some painting tips or set up paint nites. Just dont condem them for the apperance of there army when you dont know the story. Maybe just play the damn game and move on, If you crush them you can claim it was because ur army had paint luck(?) and if you lose you can die beautifully. lol
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Post by: Monster Rain
liam0404 wrote:So what's rational about the painted camp? Refusal to play certain people who don't have painted models? That's rational behaviour?
Obviously this is to be judged on a case by case basis.
Someone who's too broke to buy paint(but inexplicably has money for models) would be one matter, someone who just doesn't want to paint their army is obviously another.
Yes, preferring to play against painted armies is perfectly rational. I don't think anyone says that they outright refuse to play unpainted armies, I know that I for sure haven't.
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Post by: Avatar 720
idk man pay someone else to paint them.
Trouble here is that i've already shelled out for the models, do I really have to pay through the nose just to please someone else?
There's also the issue of trust, do I trust these models to get safely through the mail? Do I trust the guy on the other end?
And then there's also the issue of time. When will I have them back? I've missed out on X amount of gaming nights because someone else wants to play painted models only, was it worth it?
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Post by: Frazzled
There's a difference between justification and rationalization, I think.
Only in your mind.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Frazzled wrote:
There's a difference between justification and rationalization, I think.
Only in your mind.
That's the only place that matters!
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Post by: Lexx
Avatar 720 wrote:idk man pay someone else to paint them.
Trouble here is that i've already shelled out for the models, do I really have to pay through the nose just to please someone else?
There's also the issue of trust, do I trust these models to get safely through the mail? Do I trust the guy on the other end?
And then there's also the issue of time. When will I have them back? I've missed out on X amount of gaming nights because someone else wants to play painted models only, was it worth it?
Look for a painter you like the style of that will do a deal for a whole army commission. Also see his history for commissions and maybe contact his past clients for feedback on him. Failing that buy cheap models online and practice. Anyone given enough time and practice can get to basic tabletop standards. Anyone!
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Post by: Pacific
liam0404 wrote:@The OP
Sorry to be so brazen about this, but you are a complete prat if that is your attitude.
NOTHING pisses me off more when I walk into my local GW to play a game, when some of the people go "oh have you not painted that unit yet?"
Now i'm sorry that I work 12 hours a day, and that the ONLY opportunity I get to play warhammer is when I manage to get away from work early once a week. There are so many students in my shop, and they have all the time in the world to paint ot their hearts content. I sometimes struggle to find time to assemble, let alone paint.
Oh, and please don't label all us ebayers with the same brush - the only army i bought from Ebay was my necron army - if you want to call me a bandwagoner for that as well, well then youre a double idiot for that as well.
If anyone is the terrible hobbyist, its you.
Are you the guy from the Simpsons who works in the Dungeon and Android Baseball card shop?
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Post by: Frazzled
Monster Rain wrote:Frazzled wrote:
There's a difference between justification and rationalization, I think.
Only in your mind.
That's the only place that matters!
Don't forget, in order to converse with his equal and Irishman is forced to talk to God!*
*Added for no reason other than I like the phrase.
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Post by: Avatar 720
Lexx wrote:Avatar 720 wrote:idk man pay someone else to paint them.
Trouble here is that i've already shelled out for the models, do I really have to pay through the nose just to please someone else?
There's also the issue of trust, do I trust these models to get safely through the mail? Do I trust the guy on the other end?
And then there's also the issue of time. When will I have them back? I've missed out on X amount of gaming nights because someone else wants to play painted models only, was it worth it?
Look for a painter you like the style of that will do a deal for a whole army commission. Also see his history for commissions and maybe contact his past clients for feedback on him. Failing that buy cheap models online and practice. Anyone given enough time and practice can get to basic tabletop standards. Anyone!
Anyone given the right inclination can.
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Post by: Lexx
Avatar 720 wrote:Lexx wrote:Avatar 720 wrote:idk man pay someone else to paint them.
Trouble here is that i've already shelled out for the models, do I really have to pay through the nose just to please someone else?
There's also the issue of trust, do I trust these models to get safely through the mail? Do I trust the guy on the other end?
And then there's also the issue of time. When will I have them back? I've missed out on X amount of gaming nights because someone else wants to play painted models only, was it worth it?
Look for a painter you like the style of that will do a deal for a whole army commission. Also see his history for commissions and maybe contact his past clients for feedback on him. Failing that buy cheap models online and practice. Anyone given enough time and practice can get to basic tabletop standards. Anyone!
Anyone given the right inclination can.
Just saying there are ways to do it if you want to do it yourself or with other peoples help that are possible and wont break the bank. The store I first got into the hobby at had 3 colours and bases done as a minimum to play unless you had just bought those models that week. The painting and aesthetics of an army I guess were ingrained into me to be just as important as the battles. It just seems a waste to not finish them.
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Post by: Major Malfunction
Laughing God wrote:Now to the point of the thread. I get disgusted now when I go to my flgs and see veteran players walking into the shop with with a flavor of the month army they bought off ebay just to pwn people into the dust on the battlefield. BUT the models look terrible, there was no effort put into it, what are they getting out of all of it? Or they still have the same y looking army they have had the last 2 years and have done nothing to fix it. Im to the point were I only play players who have put the effort to at least make there models tabel top quality as I have, now I dont mind a primered model here or there awaiting work because thats a sign of progress.
Does anyone agree with me? Am I just being pompus? Or are people just lazy hobbyists with no real respect for the game? idk In my mind this game is just more than just winning on the table top, the hobby as a whole is my needs to be considered.
I certainly understand the sentiment. Personally I have a great appreciation for the hobby aspects of the game especially conversions. Coming from a long background of static model building this is not surprising.
In this hobby there is the chance to develop skill at playing, and there is also opportunity to develop skill at modeling and painting. While I have a great deal of skill in assembly and conversion my painting is adequate at best though I strive to improve. My playing is solid middle ground and I can hold my own.
One thing I have observed in my local gaming scene is there are certain traits that seem to come out in the less hobby oriented folks. Since their main goal is winning the game they tend to be rather cut throat and some of the most heated in-game arguments I've witnessed have come from those that pay others to build and paint their armies. On the other side of the coin one of the most laid-back players I know is also the best painter.
Now this is not to say that all hobbyists are fun to play against, and all purchasers of pre-painted armies are jerks. In my experience it's just tended towards that equation. Your mileage may vary.
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Post by: liam0404
Pacific wrote:liam0404 wrote:@The OP
Sorry to be so brazen about this, but you are a complete prat if that is your attitude.
NOTHING pisses me off more when I walk into my local GW to play a game, when some of the people go "oh have you not painted that unit yet?"
Now i'm sorry that I work 12 hours a day, and that the ONLY opportunity I get to play warhammer is when I manage to get away from work early once a week. There are so many students in my shop, and they have all the time in the world to paint ot their hearts content. I sometimes struggle to find time to assemble, let alone paint.
Oh, and please don't label all us ebayers with the same brush - the only army i bought from Ebay was my necron army - if you want to call me a bandwagoner for that as well, well then youre a double idiot for that as well.
If anyone is the terrible hobbyist, its you.
Are you the guy from the Simpsons who works in the Dungeon and Android Baseball card shop?
How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?
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Post by: Element206
Hmm, seemingly there is incessant excuses/explanations why people refuse to devote time and effort into painting their armies. And I dont understand where all this elitist talk is coming from either. Ive seen the term more than once on this thread. Nobody is calling the 'non-painters' apologists since thats what they are ultimately doing. I wouldnt refuse a friendly game of 40k to someone who has not painted their army, I just simply prefer and respect the effort. furthermore, I dont think any of us in the designated 'painters' corner are asking the impossible of fellow players. We are not asking you to show up at the table with a 'eavy metal 5000pt army; but rather to take the smallest amount of pride in your minis, enough to slap a couple of colors on them. Its not about being a perfectionist, its about showing that you have gone beyond the black/white primer stage and despite skill or handicap, you have given life and a personal touch to something that you can define as 'yours.'
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Post by: liam0404
But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?
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Post by: Monster Rain
liam0404 wrote:But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?
It's not to satisfy him.
You're missing the point.
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Post by: Frazzled
Monster Rain wrote:liam0404 wrote:But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?
It's not to satisfy him.
You're missing the point.
What exactly is the point?
1. Some people like the hobby aspects.
2. Some like the list making aspects.
3. Some like the gaming aspects.
4. Some like the hanging with friends aspects.
5. Some all shades of all or only some of these aspects.
Live and let live. The people stating you should or shouldn't be doing something are essential missing the entire point. This is entertainment-something to kill time for personal enjoyment. Let them do what they want. Each one of the above can be remarked enagtively but frankly thats just stupid.
1. Some people like the hobby aspects. Dickface says "well you should take up painting"
2. Some like the list making aspects. Dickface says "well you should take up math formulas"
3. Some like the gaming aspects. Dickface says "you should take up chess"
4. Some like the hanging with friends aspects. Dickface says "well you should just hang out in a pool hall."
The only person who's a dickface in the above scenario is...Dickface.
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Post by: wolfshadow
Meh, I prefer to play against at least a minimally painted army. But then again, I'm coming from a time where you HAD to paint in order to be able to play. My GW where I started playing had a 3 color minimum for an army, and they wanted them based as well.
Heck, my painting was not that great.
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Post by: Element206
liam0404 wrote:But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
But why should I do it purely to satisfy you?
if this is directed at me, I think you are misconstruing my message. I never mentioned anything about my satisfaction. This should be about your satisfaction. IF you wish to play with an army that anyone and everyone can replicate, that is your prerogative. Whether you would like to accept it or not, painting IS part of the game. I dont recall ever seeing a codex omitting the mention of painting your characters; Im also pretty sure most places and tournaments you enter require the most rudimentay and minimal effort. So if you choose not to paint thats fine, but the anemic excuses from everyone are sounding redundant...why does it create such personal calamity to paint your characters (handicaps or disabilities aside)?
--If your question wasnt directed at me, then disregard this message.
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Post by: pdawg517
Ultimately they are your models and you should do what you like with them. Personally I never put a model down that is not at least primed.
When I first started the hobby it was build, prime, and play. Now that I have settled in more to the hobby and done some exploration I enjoy the hobby aspect much more than I previously did. Though I am not a great painter I try to put them to a cohesive TT standard. I prefer to play against people who have a painted army but I never say no to gray models either!
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Post by: Steelmage99
I find it interesting that people who don't enjoy painting aren't "allowed" to say just that.
Apparently saying that, is met with a barrage of "you could find the time if you really cared".
But what if the person doesn't really care, but just enjoys the game itself?
Much in the same way that some people say that they don't care about winning.
Why is it that it is OK to say; "If you don't prioritize this certain aspect of the hobby, then you are lazy/disrespectfull/a WAAC player."?
Why is it OK to prioritize painting and become a "hobby saint", a "gamers gamer" and a "true gentleman of leisure", and it is of course perfectly OK to refuse to play one of the unwashed (unpainted) horde.?
But if you prioritize the gaming aspect of the hobby you are a WAAC, rules lawyer and a TFG, and refusing to play somebody based on tactical merits in the game is the ultimate jerk-elitism.
Nobody should make themselves masters over how others enjoy the hobby.
Doing so is the only truly jerk move.
Saying; "I don't like seeing unpainted/badly painted models on the table" is just the same as saying; "I don't like seeing unplayed/badly played models on the table".
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Post by: Element206
Steelmage99 wrote:I find it interesting that people who don't enjoy painting aren't "allowed" to say just that.
Apparently saying that, is met with a barrage of "you could find the time if you really cared".
But what if the person doesn't really care, but just enjoys the game itself?
Much in the same way that some people say that they don't care about winning.
Why is it that it is OK to say; "If you don't prioritize this certain aspect of the hobby, then you are lazy/disrespectfull/a WAAC player."?
Why is it OK to prioritize painting and become a "hobby saint", a "gamers gamer" and a "true gentleman of leisure", and it is of course perfectly OK to refuse to play one of the unwashed (unpainted) horde.?
But if you prioritize the gaming aspect of the hobby you are a WAAC, rules lawyer and a TFG, and refusing to play somebody based on tactical merits in the game is the ultimate jerk-elitism.
Nobody should make themselves masters over how others enjoy the hobby.
Doing so is the only truly jerk move.
Saying; "I don't like seeing unpainted/badly painted models on the table" is just the same as saying; "I don't like seeing unplayed/badly played models on the table".
-- im not going to look through all 5 pages of this thread, but can you show me an example of these 'attacks' occuring where painters are bashing non-painters? In fact, from the posts ive read, it seems quite the contrary. the second post mentions the creator of this thread being a nazi and elitist? That seems ok to you? I believe each side is voicing their opinions, but seems like the 'non-painters' are taking more offense to this topic....hmm.
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Post by: Lennysmash
Steelmage QFT, the equivalent is saying something along the lines of you're only a true chess player if you carved the pieces yourself.
Those who don't enjoy painting should have the right to say so, just as those who don't enjoy playing the game should also be able to say so. Dividing this hobby into gamers and painters is a redundant practice, it serves no-one. The really measure of who you should play is whether a person enters into the spirit of the hobby, not whether they are good at it.
Please remember people have enough troubles in the world without someone dictating how they enjoy there own hobby. And it is just that, a hobby, not a job.
One last point for this rant, just because someone plays to win doesn't necessarily mean they are not also playing for fun. If you get a prat that brings in overpowered armies just to win then don't play them but don't automatically say that just because somebody's army isn't painted to YOUR idea of table top that they are unworthy to face you.
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Post by: Element206
Lennysmash wrote:Steelmage QFT, the equivalent is saying something along the lines of you're only a true chess player if you carved the pieces yourself.
mmm, no, thats not what anyone is inferring. how exactly did you equivocate the message so badly? There is no level of expectation to carve your own chess pieces. it would be more along the lines of someone going to a ski resort to walk down the mountain. Sure you can, there are no signs posted saying you cant....but thats not what the ski resort is intended for.
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Post by: guiltl3ss
When I started 40k, I didnt have anyone to play with. I actuallyjust fell in love with the fluff and the hobby, even though I had no prior hobby experience. So I got AoBR and started to learn. I just recently started playing after over a year of just enjoying the hobby. I'll field whatever I have, even if it's unfinished, but I love the hobby very much and that is the prime focus for me. Some of my friends dont enjoy the painting as much but I dont let that bother me. Theyre enjoying the game in their own way. In the end, its just about having fun ^^.
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Post by: Steelmage99
Element206 wrote:Steelmage99 wrote:I find it interesting that people who don't enjoy painting aren't "allowed" to say just that.
Apparently saying that, is met with a barrage of "you could find the time if you really cared".
But what if the person doesn't really care, but just enjoys the game itself?
*snip*
Saying; "I don't like seeing unpainted/badly painted models on the table" is just the same as saying; "I don't like seeing unplayed/badly played models on the table".
-- im not going to look through all 5 pages of this thread, but can you show me an example of these 'attacks' occuring where painters are bashing non-painters? In fact, from the posts ive read, it seems quite the contrary. the second post mentions the creator of this thread being a nazi and elitist? That seems ok to you? I believe each side is voicing their opinions, but seems like the 'non-painters' are taking more offense to this topic....hmm.
No, it is certainly not OK to call the OP a nazi and an elitist......and that is my point in case you missed it. It is not OK for anybody to call anybody anything.
In regards to who is taking offense....well, what did you expect? This is a seriously biased thread with a clear intent.
Of course, the targets of such a thread will react.
And some other kind of people might react too. People like me, for instance. People like me who react when anybody tries to tell me how to enjoy my hobby.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Element206 wrote:Lennysmash wrote:Steelmage QFT, the equivalent is saying something along the lines of you're only a true chess player if you carved the pieces yourself.
mmm, no, thats not what anyone is inferring. how exactly did you equivocate the message so badly? There is no level of expectation to carve your own chess pieces.
it would be more along the lines of someone going to a ski resort to walk down the mountain. Sure you can, there are no signs posted saying you cant....but thats not what the ski resort is intended for.
No, thats not it either.
It is like going to a ski resort to ski, but being looked down upon because you are not wearing the matching outfit and the really cool glasses. You just happens to enjoy skiing, but it isn't good enough to enjoy skiing while wearing mismatching pants, a fleece and a random sweatshirt thrown on top.
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Post by: Noir
To the OP.
So what your saying is it was OK for YOU to play with a ugly/unpainted/badly painted army when you started.
But now that your take the time paint your army you will not play ugly/unpainted/badly painted army, WOW talk about jerkish, what if they did that to you when you had that type of army. Good thing some people just play for fun or you wouldn't of played when you started. Your the reason gamer are looked down on by nongamer as nerds and geeks. Basically the same class of people that make nonjocks think all jocks they are all dumb as rocks.
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Post by: purplefood
I don't really enjoy painting models. I do enjoy painting scenery.
But, when i do try painting i can do uie well and really enjoy the results.
Personally i find the easiest way of painting and use that.
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Post by: Acardia
Personally I won't play with an all grey army, I have to paint something I love painting, however my goals shift. Right now I am trying to get ready for a tourney so I am painting daemons at a solid pace, however friends want to play against my BA since I am the only local guy who has them, but so far only DC is painted.
Ergo, I rather play painted but depending on what I need to bring to the table determines at what state everything is at.
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Post by: wolfshadow
For those who say that playing with an unpainted army is fine: Try playing in a tournament. Let me know how that works for you. Many stores and clubs require that your models be painted to a minimum standard. It's how I started the hobby. And the ability to play an army once it hit a certain standard was what drove me to paint.
Pride in my work, and seeing better looking models that I was playing against drove me to paint better.
If your local gaming groupl allows you to play with unpainted models, great. Enjoy your gaming.
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Post by: agnosto
Since we're all in a sharing mood and it is the holidays in all, I'll bless you all with my 2 cents.
It's a game. It's marketed as a game and without the game GW would not be in business because there's no way people would collect battle forces just for a "hobby"; one or two models, maybe but whole armies? No. Be honest, you know it's true.
The way some of you say you act, I bet you were beat up a great deal as you were growing up because if you said half of the nonsense you're spouting here to someone's face, 1 in 5 would happily push yours in for you. Seriously, you can only be so much of an ass before someone calls you on it and bullying 12 year olds in a game store doesn't give you any moral high ground. Zero.
Point of fact. When I buy something with my money, it's my purcyase and no one on this earth has the right to tell me what to do with it. I could go into a game store, buy a baneblade, take it home and set it on fire and to hell with all of you if you don't like it. So then, it's my property, if I choose not to paint it, that's my choice and has nothing to do with you. If you choose not to play me because of that fact, I'm afraid that makes you a small person because you can't get over yourself long enough to maybe enjoy a game....at a place where games are played. I don't know about your FLGS but not a whole lot of "hobbying" happens in any that I've been to, just the playing of games...you know, the G in FLGS but then maybe I'm wrong and you only have FLHS in your community, places where likeminded people gather and feel all superior to people that don't like/want to paint little plastic (and sometimes metal) army men.
Personally, both of my 40k armies are completely painted and my ancient fantasy army (chaos dwarfs) is painted as well. According to you, I should not be allowed to play with my recent army, Ogre Kingdoms, because I only have 5 painted figures with the rest just bodies on a base. You see, I will paint them but also want to play with them before all of them are painted...why would I drop several hundred dollars buying an army except to play with it?
In conclusion, I am truly happy that none of you frequent the FLGS that I do because the first time you were a rude, arrogant piece of toe-jam to me, I would invite you outside for a discussion.
Well, my spleen's vented.
***End Rant***
Happy turkey day to those on this side of the pond and I might be pursuaded to mail pieces of my wife's sopapilla cheesecake to those on the other side of the pond for proper compensation.
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Post by: wolfshadow
Quick question: For those who game regularly at GW stores... is that 3 color rule still in effect? Just curious.
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Post by: Lexx
wolfshadow wrote:Queick question: For those who game regularly at GW stores... is that 3 color rule still in effect? Just curious.
I've seen it in effect in one or two stores. Its a lot less common though in newer branches.
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Post by: zadelistol
I'm just gonna throw in my random assortment of change.
I will admit I do make excuses not to paint, or when I do try to paint the other people in the house gripe about it since nothing gets done around the house when I do. But I want to try to paint when I get the chance.
I realize my army hasn't been close to fully painted since I got it back towards the start of '09.
But meh, I am painting it slowly. When I get new models I prefer to put them together right away instead of leaving them sit. If I have the primer, I prime them shortly after I'm satisfied with how they are put together.
Painting however, is harder for me to do, not because I don't like, but because the modeling aspect has a bit higher priority then the painting. As I have stated before though. I intend on having my army up to table top quality before I go to LGS next. I do appreciate those that have a fully painted army battling me even though mine isn't finished. I take no side in this argument anymore. I see no point in it since both sides will keep arguing and get nowhere, for the most part.
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Post by: Laughing God
zadelistol wrote:I'm just gonna throw in my random assortment of change.
I will admit I do make excuses not to paint, or when I do try to paint the other people in the house gripe about it since nothing gets done around the house when I do. But I want to try to paint when I get the chance.
I realize my army hasn't been close to fully painted since I got it back towards the start of '09.
But meh, I am painting it slowly. When I get new models I prefer to put them together right away instead of leaving them sit. If I have the primer, I prime them shortly after I'm satisfied with how they are put together.
Painting however, is harder for me to do, not because I don't like, but because the modeling aspect has a bit higher priority then the painting. As I have stated before though. I intend on having my army up to table top quality before I go to LGS next. I do appreciate those that have a fully painted army battling me even though mine isn't finished. I take no side in this argument anymore. I see no point in it since both sides will keep arguing and get nowhere, for the most part.
Your doing just fine. No one is asking for fully painted army just gradual progress and an interest in the entire hobby, not just powergaming with ugly models. Keep up the gradual work good or bad
agnosto wrote:Since we're all in a sharing mood and it is the holidays in all, I'll bless you all with my 2 cents.
It's a game. It's marketed as a game and without the game GW would not be in business because there's no way people would collect battle forces just for a "hobby"; one or two models, maybe but whole armies? No. Be honest, you know it's true.
The way some of you say you act, I bet you were beat up a great deal as you were growing up because if you said half of the nonsense you're spouting here to someone's face, 1 in 5 would happily push yours in for you. Seriously, you can only be so much of an ass before someone calls you on it and bullying 12 year olds in a game store doesn't give you any moral high ground. Zero.
Point of fact. When I buy something with my money, it's my purcyase and no one on this earth has the right to tell me what to do with it. I could go into a game store, buy a baneblade, take it home and set it on fire and to hell with all of you if you don't like it. So then, it's my property, if I choose not to paint it, that's my choice and has nothing to do with you. If you choose not to play me because of that fact, I'm afraid that makes you a small person because you can't get over yourself long enough to maybe enjoy a game....at a place where games are played. I don't know about your FLGS but not a whole lot of "hobbying" happens in any that I've been to, just the playing of games...you know, the G in FLGS but then maybe I'm wrong and you only have FLHS in your community, places where likeminded people gather and feel all superior to people that don't like/want to paint little plastic (and sometimes metal) army men.
Personally, both of my 40k armies are completely painted and my ancient fantasy army (chaos dwarfs) is painted as well. According to you, I should not be allowed to play with my recent army, Ogre Kingdoms, because I only have 5 painted figures with the rest just bodies on a base. You see, I will paint them but also want to play with them before all of them are painted...why would I drop several hundred dollars buying an army except to play with it?
In conclusion, I am truly happy that none of you frequent the FLGS that I do because the first time you were a rude, arrogant piece of toe-jam to me, I would invite you outside for a discussion.
Well, my spleen's vented.
***End Rant***
Happy turkey day to those on this side of the pond and I might be pursuaded to mail pieces of my wife's sopapilla cheesecake to those on the other side of the pond for proper compensation.
Man read my other posts before you berate me. You have me pegged all wrong. Your making progress, your clearly not a TFG whos throwing whatever he can on the table to win a game (obiously since you play ogres ), if your making progress ill play you finnished models or not...
Noir wrote:To the OP.
So what your saying is it was OK for YOU to play with a ugly/unpainted/badly painted army when you started.
But now that your take the time paint your army you will not play ugly/unpainted/badly painted army, WOW talk about jerkish, what if they did that to you when you had that type of army. Good thing some people just play for fun or you wouldn't of played when you started. Your the reason gamer are looked down on by nongamer as nerds and geeks. Basically the same class of people that make nonjocks think all jocks they are all dumb as rocks.
hmmm again with the name calling... please read my other posts before addressing me so pretentiously. I clearly stated earlier, new players obiously have that excuse... they are still working on their army and should be helped not shunned. If youve been playing for years and you havent touched your army in months, yes Im going to avoid playing you for someone who cares more about all forms of the hobby.
People can choose to paint there armys or not, and I can choose not to play them for being lazy, seems fair. Now the mods are already all over this thread lets keep it polite.
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Post by: Doctadeth
I've played both paths, even in tournaments (my army was just 2 bases short of finished), and I've played entired primed armies. But I've seen a lot worse, unfinished land raiders, people putting simply unfinished models down, picking them up and finishing them ingame.....
If both sides are okay with it, its fine. I don't mind myself if players have unpainted/unfinished models on the table. Its just in the way you feel you play the game.
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Post by: Steelmage99
Laughing God wrote:
People can choose to paint there armys or not, and I can choose not to play them for being lazy, seems fair. Now the mods are already all over this thread lets keep it polite.
See? There you go again.
Calling people who don't enjoy/prioritize painting lazy, and in the same post as you complain about name calling, no less.
That IS being pompous....and no amount of "Now the mods are already all over this thread lets keep it polite" is going to change that.
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Post by: undivided
My not so FLGS doesn't allow dipped models or substandard models. Most of the time they know when you bought 'em, if you're back in a week with a base coat and hastily painted details, they won't play you. I try to paint a little bit better than tabletop quality, especially if I really like the model\s.
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Post by: ChrisCP
That is very friendly
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Post by: undivided
ChrisCP wrote:That is very friendly
Happy?
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Post by: ChrisCP
Heehee, thanks
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Post by: Bramnero
I have a friend who's an donkey-cave, but it's ok because he's my donkey-cave. It annoys a little bit how he has enough money two own atleast 2000 pts of Blood Angels, IG and Black Templars. Now he's also convinced that he will go Greyknights when or if the come out any time soon. The thing is, he hasn't painted a single one of his own models. Yet he has the courage to ask people like me to paint a librarian for him.
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Post by: Pacific
The Green Git wrote:
One thing I have observed in my local gaming scene is there are certain traits that seem to come out in the less hobby oriented folks. Since their main goal is winning the game they tend to be rather cut throat and some of the most heated in-game arguments I've witnessed have come from those that pay others to build and paint their armies. On the other side of the coin one of the most laid-back players I know is also the best painter.
Now this is not to say that all hobbyists are fun to play against, and all purchasers of pre-painted armies are jerks. In my experience it's just tended towards that equation. Your mileage may vary.
This has been my experience as well. Playing against an orc player some time ago who had a horde of unpainted (and un-armed, as in 'no arms', not just no weapons!), and with WFB movement trays representing war buggies. I felt that if he had had a shovel, he would have used it to move his troops. When they went bundling into combat, some of my marines went flying - models I had spent a great deal of time painting. I think had he had any kind of concept of time spent painting then he would not have acted with such crass regard for other peoples work. That was one thing, at least, which I think you would have not seen back when GW insisted on painted miniatures if you are going to play with them in store.
In my opinion, I think the hobby has suffered from it.
I went into my LGS a while ago for a 'veterans' night (although most were probably 15-20 or so) - one person out of about 7 or 8 had a properly painted and modelled army. The rest were an eclectic mix of unpainted and even unassembled miniatures, thrown around with abandon on badly set up tables and just playing kill points. While you can answer this with 'well it doesn't matter if they are having fun', the point being that the kind of culture which seems to have developed over the last 5 years has moved players away from the 'hobby' side of it - of taking time and effort to not only make your army, but to also set up a worthwhile game. I think in every sense, you get out what you put in.
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Post by: ChaosGalvatron
While i am not a very good painter, and take ages to paint models, i would never pay for someone to paint my army.
At the moment most of my models at least have a chaos black undercoat, so worst case i can say that they are REALLY GOOD night lords.
Just about the worst thing i can imagine in this hobby is someone damaging another players models. I would have had words with your shovel wielding opponent
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Post by: Destrado
Steelmage99 wrote:Laughing God wrote:
People can choose to paint there armys or not, and I can choose not to play them for being lazy, seems fair. Now the mods are already all over this thread lets keep it polite.
See? There you go again.
Calling people who don't enjoy/prioritize painting lazy, and in the same post as you complain about name calling, no less.
That IS being pompous....and no amount of "Now the mods are already all over this thread lets keep it polite" is going to change that.
After the amount of insult coming from nearly everyone... from pompous, to nazi, you'd have to think he's being specific instead of intentionally provocative.
I wouldn't play someone (who isn't starting...) that plays like the ones Pacific faces. No arms, movement trays for buggies, call me snobish (that seems to be the trend) but if I can't buy a miniature, either I convert it, or I don't field it. If it's for test purposes, I'll try to field something that could be used to proxy it (I wouldn't mind someone using 'Koptas as buggies, if warned beforehand). Playing against me with bases, saying they're models (even if someone said it was Frodo or Tau Stealth Suits) and having nothing on top means I most likely won't play that person.
Now, on the subject of time and hobby - unless they're very specific cases, like someone in this thread who works two jobs - people can't use time as an excuse, there are people from all sorts of social echelons with different time tables that manage none-the-less to paint, even if it's just a handful of miniatures.
If a person can't paint or doesn't like to, he shouldn't be ostracized for that, he should be helped, but even people with some adversities - which have also shown up in this thread - manage to paint their armies to a tabletop quality, so it really isn't that impossible as some people would have you believe. If said person doesn't like painting... It's a bit trickier, but could be worked around.
The OP, and some posters (me included) have a problem against a very specific set of conditions to which drawing comparisons isn't simple, nor fair. I prefer to face people with painted armies but I would play against unpainted armies for the right reasons, ie, starting out, not much time, doesn't like painting... Someone who does it to play the latest "flavour of the month" army, not so much.
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Post by: wolfshadow
agnosto wrote: According to you, I should not be allowed to play with my recent army, Ogre Kingdoms, because I only have 5 painted figures with the rest just bodies on a base. You see, I will paint them but also want to play with them before all of them are painted...why would I drop several hundred dollars buying an army except to play with it?
In conclusion, I am truly happy that none of you frequent the FLGS that I do because the first time you were a rude, arrogant piece of toe-jam to me, I would invite you outside for a discussion.
Well, my spleen's vented.
***End Rant***
At many stores, including my local Games Workshop, you would not be allowed to play with an unpainted army.
If you think people are being rude by asking you to play with a painted army, wow...
Maybe I'm old-school. Maybe there has been a massive change in the hobby in the 5 years that I've been away.
But there is a little thing that used to be in place called 'minimum standard'. The rule was, 3 colours, with at least a small effort at basing the model. If 1 or 2 models were unbased, that MIGHT have been let slide. (If the manager was in the store... then probably not)
So that's where I'm coming from. If you wanted to play the game, the models needed to be painted and assembled. They didnt have to be painted WELL... but they had to be painted. So now, it seems, refusing to play an unpainted model would be seen as arrogant, and rude? To me, bringing unpainted models is rude. (Note this is for games @ a store. Local club/friends house... totally different story.)
It really is interesting that the culture of the hobby seems to have changed that much in 5 years. Even the 12 year old kids would have a painted army.
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Post by: Destrado
With an attitude like that, I doubt I'd have fun playing anyway.
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Post by: Steelmage99
Destrado wrote:
After the amount of insult coming from nearly everyone... from pompous, to nazi, you'd have to think he's being specific instead of intentionally provocative.
He opened the door on that one himself.
I wouldn't play someone (who isn't starting...) that plays like the ones Pacific faces. No arms, movement trays for buggies, call me snobish (that seems to be the trend) but if I can't buy a miniature, either I convert it, or I don't field it. If it's for test purposes, I'll try to field something that could be used to proxy it (I wouldn't mind someone using 'Koptas as buggies, if warned beforehand). Playing against me with bases, saying they're models (even if someone said it was Frodo or Tau Stealth Suits) and having nothing on top means I most likely won't play that person.
Reductio ad absurdum....gotta love it.
Now, on the subject of time and hobby - unless they're very specific cases, like someone in this thread who works two jobs - people can't use time as an excuse, there are people from all sorts of social echelons with different time tables that manage none-the-less to paint, even if it's just a handful of miniatures.
They shouldn't have to use anything as an excuse.
If a person can't paint or doesn't like to, he shouldn't be ostracized for that, he should be helped, but even people with some adversities - which have also shown up in this thread - manage to paint their armies to a tabletop quality, so it really isn't that impossible as some people would have you believe. If said person doesn't like painting... It's a bit trickier, but could be worked around.
And if they neither need, nor want help....shouldn't you just butt out of it?
The OP, and some posters (me included) have a problem against a very specific set of conditions to which drawing comparisons isn't simple, nor fair.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Please elaborate.
I prefer to face people with painted armies but I would play against unpainted armies for the right reasons, ie, starting out, not much time, doesn't like painting... Someone who does it to play the latest "flavour of the month" army, not so much.
Thank God that you can mindread the intentions of other people then.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Steelmage99 wrote:Thank God that you can mindread the intentions of other people then.
Why do you have to read minds?
You don't know who the guys are in your area that only play unpainted, FOTM armies? It doesn't take telepathy to notice these things if you're paying attention.
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Post by: Steelmage99
Yes, in that case it might be quite easy, but where do you draw the line when it is not so clear.
Obviously it is easy when the person in question shows up with yet another unpainted/semi-assembled army every time another codex comes out. Bully for you.
I am talking about the grey areas......or when people just plain don't enjoy to paint.
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Post by: Destrado
Steelmage99 wrote:Destrado wrote:
After the amount of insult coming from nearly everyone... from pompous, to nazi, you'd have to think he's being specific instead of intentionally provocative.
He opened the door on that one himself.
Which you didn't lose time to jump on. I can understand that, because nothing is more legitimate than calling someone names because you don't agree with them.
I wouldn't play someone (who isn't starting...) that plays like the ones Pacific faces. No arms, movement trays for buggies, call me snobish (that seems to be the trend) but if I can't buy a miniature, either I convert it, or I don't field it. If it's for test purposes, I'll try to field something that could be used to proxy it (I wouldn't mind someone using 'Koptas as buggies, if warned beforehand). Playing against me with bases, saying they're models (even if someone said it was Frodo or Tau Stealth Suits) and having nothing on top means I most likely won't play that person.
Reductio ad absurdum....gotta love it.
The last part was a bad joke, the rest still applies. Your point was? Using a beaten down latin expression as if it instantly nullifies my post. Quid pro Quo in the latin way.
Now, on the subject of time and hobby - unless they're very specific cases, like someone in this thread who works two jobs - people can't use time as an excuse, there are people from all sorts of social echelons with different time tables that manage none-the-less to paint, even if it's just a handful of miniatures.
They shouldn't have to use anything as an excuse.
Then they should just say that, instead of saying they don't have the time.
If a person can't paint or doesn't like to, he shouldn't be ostracized for that, he should be helped, but even people with some adversities - which have also shown up in this thread - manage to paint their armies to a tabletop quality, so it really isn't that impossible as some people would have you believe. If said person doesn't like painting... It's a bit trickier, but could be worked around.
And if they neither need, nor want help....shouldn't you just butt out of it?
If it is for socializing and I'm not interfering with someone, why shouldn't I offer help? They're free to refuse it. And what's with that attitude?
The OP, and some posters (me included) have a problem against a very specific set of conditions to which drawing comparisons isn't simple, nor fair.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Please elaborate.
Why compare it to a skying resort?
I prefer to face people with painted armies but I would play against unpainted armies for the right reasons, ie, starting out, not much time, doesn't like painting... Someone who does it to play the latest "flavour of the month" army, not so much.
Thank God that you can mindread the intentions of other people then.
Don't you talk or at least try to know something before you play someone? It's not that hard to gauge.
And again, what's with the attitude?
EDIT: Love how some people preach tolerance your way.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Steelmage99 wrote:Yes, in that case it might be quite easy, but where do you draw the line when it is not so clear.
I'm pretty sure most people that prefer to play painted armies have said that they make exceptions.
I know I did. For me, the key term there is prefer.
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Post by: Steelmage99
Destrado wrote:
A lot of rubbish.
I'm done with this. Bye.
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Post by: Destrado
Steelmage99 wrote:Destrado wrote:
Too much for Steelmage99 to cope with EDIT: (Without insulting him)
I'm done with this. Bye.
Bon voyage.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
Yeah, I know what you mean. It doesn't bother me terribly, but I can see why it would.
I don't field my army unless everything is completely painted and done (which is why I don't game very often!).... But right now...I'm getting better and better at painting, so I feel compelled to repaint all of my army every couple of months...I think I'm wasting my time
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Post by: wolfshadow
Wow...
Now, my point was lost in a ton of posts.
So I will re-iterate.
How many of us, who are for the pro-painted side, have had to deal with local stores/GWs etc where the rules were that you had to have your minis painted to play? How much is that shading our perceptions?
It's interesting to me, that my opinion probably comes from the fact that I wasnt allowed to play at my local GW if my minis were not painted to minimum store standard. (2-3 colors, and at least a bit of flock on the base)
TBH, my opinion is probably based on the whole. "I had to paint my army to be able to play, why the hell should you be able to play with an unpainted army feeling"
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Post by: rivers64
It is always cool and fun to see a fully painted army on the table, and I do paint some of my models. However simply do not have that much time to spend 24/7 painting and I enjoy playing the game more than painting the models. I'd much prefer to play.
Also, read your primer bottle closely because on mine it said on the label that it was clinically proven to cause cancer. Not joking.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
We are starting to get some alerts off this thread.
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Post by: purplefood
This thread is getting a tad flamy-I got Ninja'd... by a MOD.
People are different.
People do the hobby in different ways.
Some people like painting but not playing.
Some people love gaming but not painting.
Some people love conversions but don't like painting...
etc.
If somone has obviously picked a FotM army and is never gonna paint it then fine, you can think what you want.
But, if you see an unpainted army and act on a prejudice of them that you have already formed in your mind it's not only unfair on them but also you're being a nasty human being.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Destrado wrote:Steelmage99 wrote:Destrado wrote:
Too much for Steelmage99 to cope with EDIT: (Without insulting him)
I'm done with this. Bye.
Bon voyage.
Veni vidi vici.
Also,
de gustibus non est disputandum
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Post by: Destrado
De gustibus aut bene, aut nihil.
Kidding.
@wolfshadow - I can't really say anything about painting rules for stores. We don't have a FLGS or GW store. Me and my group play on the basis that if we paint it, we play it. Not painted was never an issue. I take an awful lot of time painting, wanting to use it in a battle is an incentive to paint regularly. That is me and my group's take on it.
I for one wouldn't enforce it on outsiders.
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Post by: Inquisitor_Syphonious
How about we stop using dead languages?
I think "bad hobbyist" is as harsh as it is subjective.
I personally find playing much more enjoyable than painting and modelling.
I'm sure almost all of us prefer playing against painted armies, it looks nicer.
Though thinking less of a person's character because they don't share the same values as you?
Well, i'd certainly rather have an unpainted army than be that person.
I just like having good laughs with my friends, so, painting is an unrequired chore. I paint when I play in tournaments, that's it.
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Post by: wolfshadow
purplefood wrote:This thread is getting a tad flamy-I got Ninja'd... by a MOD.
People are different.
People do the hobby in different ways.
Some people like painting but not playing.
Some people love gaming but not painting.
Some people love conversions but don't like painting...
etc.
If somone has obviously picked a FotM army and is never gonna paint it then fine, you can think what you want.
But, if you see an unpainted army and act on a prejudice of them that you have already formed in your mind it's not only unfair on them but also you're being a nasty human being.
Again, personal attack.
Not necessary.
I'll re-iterate my point, which no one has addressed.
5 years ago, when I was last a part of the hobby, most stores had a minimum 3 color rule. IE, to feild your army on the table, you had to have your army painted a minimum of 3 colors, and it had to be minimally based. (Most were either flock or sand)
This idea that feilding an unpainted army is ok at a store seems to be a relatively new thing to me. Even the 12-13 year olds who played abided by this rule @ all of the local stores.
So I think those of us who were not allowed to play with unpainted armies have a certain amount of bias against those who feild unpainted army.
Personal pride on my own end prohibits me from fielding an army thats not at least basically painted.
Is this rule no longer in effect?
Will GW stores let you play with an unpainted army?
Will tournaments allow you to play with an unpainted army?
Games with close friends aside, when did playing with an unpainted army become an acceptable practice?
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Post by: Monster Rain
wolfshadow wrote:Games with close friends aside, when did playing with an unpainted army become an acceptable practice?
I blame Ard Boyz.
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Post by: Mad4Minis
wolfshadow wrote: My GW where I started playing had a 3 color minimum for an army, and they wanted them based as well.
Thats complete bull. Not only would I never spend a single dime in a place with that attitude, but I would make every effort to divert other players to other retail or online sources. If they want things finished to a certain quality level then they can provide them, or deal with waht i bring. Now if this was a private clubs rules that would be fine...but for a business to make demands like that...far to snobby and unacceptable.
Personally, I prefer to have everything completely built and painted before I use it. Doesnt always work out that way, but I try. Now its been about 12 years since Ive played anything in a retail store. I do all my gaming at my house or a friends.
I could care less about how much or how well someone elses army is painted, but being partially assembled would be annoying. Not only would they need to be clear about what each unit was, but I might make them park a small note next to each one with the major details just so I dont have to keep asking or guessing. Also keeps things form changing during the game.
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Post by: Peter Wiggin
I feel the same way, but thats because I am a modeler first, a painter second, and a gamer as a very distant third. Many folks enjoy playing the game much more than the other two aspects of the hobby, and paint doesn't win a game. <shrug>
Just as an observation, its impossible to "ruin" a mini if you are using acrylic paints (provided you don't do something dumb like try to use Teflon based sealants DOH). I'm on my 3rd paint job for most of my mini's. Its ALOT cheaper than buying hundreds of dollars worth of mini's every time you want to try a new paintjob.
My only problem is with folks that try to use non- gw parts for conversion without proper attention to the grimdark. I honest to god think that ANYONE can make a decent looking conversion. Painting....meh thats another story. Imagination and innovation are something I respect in other artists regardless of the finish on the final product. I never picked up a tube of GS or a modeling scalpel until a couple of weeks ago, so I'm not sympathetic to lazy modelers.
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Post by: wolfshadow
Mad4Minis wrote:wolfshadow wrote: My GW where I started playing had a 3 color minimum for an army, and they wanted them based as well.
Thats complete bull. Not only would I never spend a single dime in a place with that attitude, but I would make every effort to divert other players to other retail or online sources. If they want things finished to a certain quality level then they can provide them, or deal with waht i bring. Now if this was a private clubs rules that would be fine...but for a business to make demands like that...far to snobby and unacceptable.
Personally, I prefer to have everything completely built and painted before I use it. Doesnt always work out that way, but I try. Now its been about 12 years since Ive played anything in a retail store. I do all my gaming at my house or a friends.
I could care less about how much or how well someone elses army is painted, but being partially assembled would be annoying. Not only would they need to be clear about what each unit was, but I might make them park a small note next to each one with the major details just so I dont have to keep asking or guessing. Also keeps things form changing during the game.
So where do you draw the line?
Some of us draw it at what I would call minimum standard.
You draw it at assembled.
We've had people who want tp lay the game with movement trays as models.
Everyone has their line where they say to themselves.... "This is just too much."
You want to draw people away from the only local place to play? Doesnt seem that sensible to me. There is, as far as I can tell, about 3 places in my city that I can regularly get a game in, if I'm interested. All 3 are 30+ minutes commute time via transit. If I want to get a game in, I pretty much have to play at the local GW. Why would I want to drive their customers away? So I have no place to play? I'd rather play at a place that has a painted army standard for gaming, than not play at all.
I started the hobby, and the standard was 'painted army'. So that's the standard that I feel is proper. Others obviously differ. Its interesting how vehement the opinions are.
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Post by: Major Malfunction
To the OP's point, I've never been *required* to field painted armies to play, and I've plonked down my share of primered or unpainted armies while playing weeknight pickup games. That said, I also remember feverishly painting my Tyranid and Ork armies to bring them to three color minimums to meet RTT requirements when I first started playing.
I would never refuse to play someone simply on the criteria that their army was or was not painted. During the "debugging" process when starting a new army there's a time where you will by necessity field models in various states of build and paint. That's normal and expected and yet another part of the hobby.
Is the real question is "does the hobby as a whole suffer when people stop caring about paint"? In some sense perhaps it does. Think about your first demo game where those beautifully painted Ultramarines duke it out with those Nids, Orks or Dark Eldar. It helped capture your imagination to see them in full color and 3D.
I look at it a lot like racing: Some people like SCCA road racing, and some like NASCAR. Now it does take some level of talent to go around in circles really fast, but I think it takes another level of talent to go both left AND right.
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Post by: Lexx
wolfshadow wrote:Wow...
Now, my point was lost in a ton of posts.
So I will re-iterate.
How many of us, who are for the pro-painted side, have had to deal with local stores/GWs etc where the rules were that you had to have your minis painted to play? How much is that shading our perceptions?
It's interesting to me, that my opinion probably comes from the fact that I wasnt allowed to play at my local GW if my minis were not painted to minimum store standard. (2-3 colors, and at least a bit of flock on the base)
TBH, my opinion is probably based on the whole. "I had to paint my army to be able to play, why the hell should you be able to play with an unpainted army feeling"
I to started off in a store that pressed the importance of the painting side of the hobby. 3 colours and basing done minimum to play unless you actually bought it and assembled it that week from the store. Even then the rules were bent a bit to include partially finished armies that were being made progress on. But people leaving entire armies assembled but not a single model painted for months if not years at a time wasn't tolerated. It's a rule that's stuck with me in my own preferences. As I said in an earlier post. For me I feel its a waste for a model to be bought, assembled and just left grey or primed. Never to be given the justice of a paint scheme. Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it. Most of the people I have regularly gamed with over the years will prefer to play against a painted rather than unpainted force. It doesn't seem to be that uncommon a phenomenon. I have only refused to play against 4 people ever I think. Most were to do with the individual being suspected of cheating or the odd TFG. But I drew the line at one guy who basically had miniatures from 4 different armies thrown together as a counts as space marine force. Ill play against unpainted armies if there are no other alternatives and there's time for a game. But if more and more people are getting into GW games just for the fights you always have Vassal I guess.
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Post by: Peter Wiggin
UsdiThunder wrote:
The more poeple into our hobby the stronger it becomes. The elitists are a big reason why 40k is not a bigger hobby. People are willing to spend $37.25 to buy a 10 pack of marines, but not put up with someone looking down thier noses at them because they'd rather get to playing, than paint their models.
+1
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Post by: purplefood
wolfshadow wrote:purplefood wrote:This thread is getting a tad flamy-I got Ninja'd... by a MOD.
People are different.
People do the hobby in different ways.
Some people like painting but not playing.
Some people love gaming but not painting.
Some people love conversions but don't like painting...
etc.
If somone has obviously picked a FotM army and is never gonna paint it then fine, you can think what you want.
But, if you see an unpainted army and act on a prejudice of them that you have already formed in your mind it's not only unfair on them but also you're being a nasty human being.
Again, personal attack.
It's not a personal attack. When i said you i meant it as a generalised you not a specific you.
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Post by: Avatar 720
Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it.
It IS their right to ignore the painting side of the hobby, and they should expect little or no issue to come of it.
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Post by: wolfshadow
Avatar 720 wrote:Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it.
It IS their right to ignore the painting side of the hobby, and they should expect little or no issue to come of it.
Why?
TBH, I think that this dumbs down the hobby. If a 6 or 7 year old kid can get a model up to store level paint, then why should other people be excused from that?
Is it really that hard to grab a can of sprayapint, and 2 bottles of a couple of different colors to do eyes and shoulderpads? I mean, thats the standard that I'daccept.
I did the Necrons I had in the space of about 2-3 hours for a 1.5 K force.
You can always go back and do detail work later.
I really don't think that asking someone to put 3 colors on a model so you can play in a store game is that much to ask. (Again, games against close friends, this goes out the window.)
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Avatar 720 wrote:Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it.
It IS their right to ignore the painting side of the hobby, and they should expect little or no issue to come of it.
The number of threads in which people who like painted armies denigrate the practice of playing with unpainted armies, shows that this expectation is entirely unfounded in reality.
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Post by: Avatar 720
wolfshadow wrote:Avatar 720 wrote:Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it.
It IS their right to ignore the painting side of the hobby, and they should expect little or no issue to come of it.
Why?
TBH, I think that this dumbs down the hobby. If a 6 or 7 year old kid can get a model up to store level paint, then why should other people be excused from that?
Is it really that hard to grab a can of sprayapint, and 2 bottles of a couple of different colors to do eyes and shoulderpads? I mean, thats the standard that I'daccept.
I did the Necrons I had in the space of about 2-3 hours for a 1.5 K force.
You can always go back and do detail work later.
I really don't think that asking someone to put 3 colors on a model so you can play in a store game is that much to ask. (Again, games against close friends, this goes out the window.)
I think a better questions iw why shouldn't other people be excused? Last time I checked, those models were bought and assembled by them, and nothing in the rulebook or army books states that models must be painted in order to play the game.
Besides, what you're saying has nothing to do with the right they have to not paint their own models or how there shouldn't be an issue from it. Rules-wise, paint isn't stated as being mandatory; they have fulfilled all requirements in order to play the game and the only thing standing between them are people who wish to impose further restrictions based on personal preference.
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Post by: Inquisitor_Syphonious
wolfshadow wrote:Avatar 720 wrote:Just because people feel it might be their right to ignore painting aspects of the hobby in favour of purely gaming doesn't mean they can expect no issue to come from it.
It IS their right to ignore the painting side of the hobby, and they should expect little or no issue to come of it.
Why?
TBH, I think that this dumbs down the hobby. If a 6 or 7 year old kid can get a model up to store level paint, then why should other people be excused from that?
Is it really that hard to grab a can of sprayapint, and 2 bottles of a couple of different colors to do eyes and shoulderpads? I mean, thats the standard that I'daccept.
I did the Necrons I had in the space of about 2-3 hours for a 1.5 K force.
You can always go back and do detail work later.
I really don't think that asking someone to put 3 colors on a model so you can play in a store game is that much to ask. (Again, games against close friends, this goes out the window.)
When I paint my armies, which is usually many years after purchasing them, I try hard for them to come out incredibly well.
I am sorry if I don't feel like sitting down one afternoon and whipping up a sub-par army. I don't have the time required to paint properly, so I do it over a long time, and I plan it out carefully.
I would enjoy to regard everyone in my gamestore (8 regulars, about 4-7 rare-shows) as a close friend, I enjoy joking and just having a good time over 40k.
(Necrons are hardly a suitable example for time/painting! )
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Post by: Crantor
Element206 wrote:Lennysmash wrote:Steelmage QFT, the equivalent is saying something along the lines of you're only a true chess player if you carved the pieces yourself.
mmm, no, thats not what anyone is inferring. how exactly did you equivocate the message so badly? There is no level of expectation to carve your own chess pieces.
it would be more along the lines of someone going to a ski resort to walk down the mountain. Sure you can, there are no signs posted saying you cant....but thats not what the ski resort is intended for.
And frankly if the guy wants to walk down the mountain mind your own business.
The painter`s faction (lets call them that) are irking people because they are like the guy who tells you coffee is bad for you when your just trying to have your morning cup, or the guy that tells you how to raise your kids because he thinks he`s doing a better job with his. Or the religious zealot that thinks you are going to hell for listening to rock and roll and lets you know it.
This what I think it boils down to. Painters: I appreciate your view about painted armies. I like painted armies too and nice terrain. It does enhance the game for me. FOR ME. Now I don't think you're Nazis (that term always bugs me) or elitists. Perfectionists sure and maybe obsessive compulsive but you guys are lecturing people on how they should play according to YOUR views and wher you are at in the hobby. That`s where you`ve gone wrong. Your points are valid but no one really wants to hear them except you guys. Look at the title of this thread and tell me it isn`t provocative.
The non-painters faction. It is your right to not paint or to paint or to play with your models in the cat box. Calling people elitist or Nazis isn`t going to change them. You don`t have to play them either. Love the game the way you want. Don`t be insulted if groups or tourney's have painting standards to be able to play. Their rules, so you have to abide by them.
To the others who paint, don`t paint and could care less what people think and just want to have fun. Keep at it.
And remember this fact: Painting enhances the game. Just like the fluff does. But neither is really truly required to actually play the game.
Live and let live.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Every time you play a game with another person, the two of you have to agree how to play the game.
Very many tabletop wargame players enjoy the game because it is played with painted figures.
It is foolish to expect them to agree to play with unpainted figures if they don't want to for aesthetic reasons.
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Post by: Crantor
Kilkrazy wrote:Every time you play a game with another person, the two of you have to agree how to play the game.
Very many tabletop wargame players enjoy the game because it is played with painted figures.
It is foolish to expect them to agree to play with unpainted figures if they don't want to for aesthetic reasons.
Yep. Agreed. It' just people who do that don't have to come on a forum and label those that don't abide by that "Terrible Hobbyists"
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Post by: rivers64
Some people like to paint a few models in a lot of detail and may take 2-3 hours to get 2-3 normal basic guardsmen done rather than an entire 1.5k force. If you don't play against people who have fully painted armies then fine but this attitude that you must paint is totally unwarranted. This does not dumb down the hobby at all. The aspect of the hobby I enjoy most is playing the battles themselves. Just because I don't have most of my force painted does not mean you shouldn't play with me. And even if you do refus to play at least don't then try to get me to paint over what I want to paint. This is a hobby and people should do what gives them the best time.
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Post by: Peter Wiggin
Avatar 720 wrote: Rules-wise, paint isn't stated as being mandatory; they have fulfilled all requirements in order to play the game and the only thing standing between them are people who wish to impose further restrictions based on personal preference.
This is really what the whole thing boils down too. It reminds me of the arguments about casual MMO players vs hardcore raiders. I'd rather play someone that has some tactical ingenuity and an unpainted army than a guy that has GD quality mini's and just throws his army at me like a sledgehammer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, I know what you mean. It doesn't bother me terribly, but I can see why it would.
I don't field my army unless everything is completely painted and done (which is why I don't game very often!).... But right now...I'm getting better and better at painting, so I feel compelled to repaint all of my army every couple of months...I think I'm wasting my time
My god this sounds horribly familiar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rivers64 wrote:Some people like to paint a few models in a lot of detail and may take 2-3 hours to get 2-3 normal basic guardsmen
Your time estimate is horribly horribly low if you are taking serious conversion work, gs modeling, and basing. Hell I don't even do the bases on my models and I'm running well over 100 man hours invested in ONE of my recent projects and they are only now getting early paint stages.
I don't mind unpainted models as long as they look decent. I don't even care if its grimdark provided it looks true to the 40k aesthetic. However, if some fool pulled out My Little Ponies, Muscle Men, and Gundams for his army I would politely find an excuse not to play.
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Post by: wolfshadow
Crantor wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Every time you play a game with another person, the two of you have to agree how to play the game.
Very many tabletop wargame players enjoy the game because it is played with painted figures.
It is foolish to expect them to agree to play with unpainted figures if they don't want to for aesthetic reasons.
Yep. Agreed. It' just people who do that don't have to come on a forum and label those that don't abide by that "Terrible Hobbyists"
I dont agree with the thread title.
I just find it interesting how different things are from 5 years ago. As I said before, the whole local gaming scene where I am pretty much depended on you showing up with a painted army.
I dont care if its not finished. Lots of people played with WIP stuff. But everything adhered to the 3 color rule.
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Post by: gazelle
Wow. I ca't believe I made it all the way to the end. Took me five separate sessions to read all of this!
Anyways, I went into this thread as an elitist paint nazi, and after seeing the opposing point of view, I think I can open up a little more to the unpainted minis players...
Thank you all for thi enkightening discussion.
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Post by: agnosto
Laughing God wrote:Man read my other posts before you berate me. You have me pegged all wrong. Your making progress, your clearly not a TFG whos throwing whatever he can on the table to win a game (obiously since you play ogres ), if your making progress ill play you finnished models or not...
I wasn't directing my rant at any person, just expressing my opinion.
wolfshadow wrote:At many stores, including my local Games Workshop, you would not be allowed to play with an unpainted army.
If you think people are being rude by asking you to play with a painted army, wow...
Maybe I'm old-school. Maybe there has been a massive change in the hobby in the 5 years that I've been away.
But there is a little thing that used to be in place called 'minimum standard'. The rule was, 3 colours, with at least a small effort at basing the model. If 1 or 2 models were unbased, that MIGHT have been let slide. (If the manager was in the store... then probably not)
So that's where I'm coming from. If you wanted to play the game, the models needed to be painted and assembled. They didnt have to be painted WELL... but they had to be painted. So now, it seems, refusing to play an unpainted model would be seen as arrogant, and rude? To me, bringing unpainted models is rude. (Note this is for games @ a store. Local club/friends house... totally different story.)
It really is interesting that the culture of the hobby seems to have changed that much in 5 years. Even the 12 year old kids would have a painted army.
That's something I'll never have to worry about because 1) The closest GW store is about 4 hours by car away from me and 2) FLGSs in my community care more about you supporting their families buy buying things in their store than whether you have some certain numbers of paint on your toy soldiers. I think if the owner of the store I frequent actually said anything like that I'd probably laugh at him and tell him myself and my money won't be back and I'll take my friends with me. Another factor is that I have entirely zero interest in tournaments so I never have to worry about fiddly little rules like how much paint is on my little plastic troopers.
Wanna talk old school? I was table top gaming in the mid-80s and picked up my first warhammer fantasy army in the 90s; I still have a full Chaos Dwarf army sitting on a shelf.
Like I said. I am most certainly glad that those with your attitude do not frequent the same FLGS that I do. I personally think it is childish to not play a GAME with someone just because they don't meet your standards. Hell, I wouldn't invite 3/4 of the mouth breathers that I play against to my house but I'll happily throw dice and move plastic around a table with them. Like Destrado said, if you're that much into appearances, you probably wouldn't be fun to play with anyway.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
I've been laughing behind my computer screen at this thread. You guys are ridiculous If you really have a problem with someone's army, just don't play them.
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Post by: wolfshadow
I've been playing from the mid 90s.. And come at the hobby from waht I've seen of it. I have a local hobby shob (As opposed to gaming shop) thats run by a family friend that I gladly support by buying my paints and supplies.
And I've never said that I cared how well painted minis were. I've played against armies that you had to be hard pressed not to laugh off the table. But the standard that I've always gamed at was that 3 color standard. It seems to be the minimum for tourneys etc.
If you have a local store that will let you play with bare plastic minis then by all means.. play away. I'll be interested to know, once I get up to speed on the local scene once again, weather or not the standard has changed in my area. But I wont be doing that untill I can get my army painted.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Samus_aran115 wrote:I've been laughing behind my computer screen at this thread. You guys are ridiculous If you really have a problem with someone's army, just don't play them.
I've never seen an army that I wouldnt play against, at least once. The local stores wouldnt let people play though.
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Post by: agnosto
wolfshadow wrote:I've been playing from the mid 90s.. And come at the hobby from waht I've seen of it. I have a local hobby shob (As opposed to gaming shop) thats run by a family friend that I gladly support by buying my paints and supplies.
And I've never said that I cared how well painted minis were. I've played against armies that you had to be hard pressed not to laugh off the table. But the standard that I've always gamed at was that 3 color standard. It seems to be the minimum for tourneys etc.
If you have a local store that will let you play with bare plastic minis then by all means.. play away. I'll be interested to know, once I get up to speed on the local scene once again, weather or not the standard has changed in my area. But I wont be doing that untill I can get my army painted.
There's really no "let" to it. If they were such sticklers, they'd be ostracizing potential, paying customers. I don't know what kind of business your family friend runs but if they can make a living by excluding potential paying customers, so be it, good for them. I'm sure that the shop down the road that could care less as long as they bring their money will laugh all the way to the bank.
My point has been that if I go out and plunk down a few hundred dollars on miniatures at a store, they should be more than happy to let me assemble them and try them out by playing with them and that has been my experience. I come in, make regular purchases and treat the tables and other customers with respect why should they care what kind of condition my personal property is in. We're not talking about a country club, it's a game store, full of nerdy types; grown-ups playing with plastic dolls. Being picky about whether your doll has paint on it seems a bit ironic when some patrons have poor personal hygiene. I would be more apt to say, "Your primer army is fine but I won't play you until you put on some clean clothes and find some deodorant."
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Post by: Monster Rain
Samus_aran115 wrote:I've been laughing behind my computer screen at this thread. You guys are ridiculous If you really have a problem with someone's army, just don't play them.
a
Isn't that what has pretty much been resolved?
I'm facepalming behind my computer screen.
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Post by: wolfshadow
[quote=agnosto
There's really no "let" to it. If they were such sticklers, they'd be ostracizing potential, paying customers. I don't know what kind of business your family friend runs but if they can make a living by excluding potential paying customers, so be it, good for them. I'm sure that the shop down the road that could care less as long as they bring their money will laugh all the way to the bank.
My point has been that if I go out and plunk down a few hundred dollars on miniatures at a store, they should be more than happy to let me assemble them and try them out by playing with them and that has been my experience. I come in, make regular purchases and treat the tables and other customers with respect why should they care what kind of condition my personal property is in. We're not talking about a country club, it's a game store, full of nerdy types; grown-ups playing with plastic dolls. Being picky about whether your doll has paint on it seems a bit ironic when some patrons have poor personal hygiene. I would be more apt to say, "Your primer army is fine but I won't play you until you put on some clean clothes and find some deodorant." I empahsies Hobby store as oppsed to gaming store, as they don't specialize in 40 K and have no playing space. I buy everything but my kits from them. (Paint, glue, styrene, milliput, tools etc.) The issue of playing nevel really comes up.
There are 3 places that I have found to game so far. 2 are GW shops, and one is a FLGS. If the rules that they have are still the same, then, it's play with a painted army, or dont play at all. I'll choose to play with a painted army.
I may try and start up a local club, but alas, organization is not my strong point. My Dad gave his heart and soul to the local military modelling scene. Most of those clubs no longer exist, as I recently found out.
And as for the hygiene issue. 2 people were banned from our local GW back when I was involved for perpetual bad Body Odor issues. I totally agree with you on that. Your local gaming community sets its standards and rules. I've posted what I 've experienced and dealt with, and how I feel about it.
I think quiet a few people are on both sides of this issue.
I'll make my PERSOANL position clear: I prefer to play against painted armies, but am willing to play against WIP armies (Slwo progress is fine, as long as I see some progreess. If your just too damned lazy to paint your stuff on an ongoing and consistant basis? I'll find someone else to play against... If the local store even lets you play in the first place.
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Post by: -Loki-
wolfshadow wrote:Mad4Minis wrote:wolfshadow wrote: My GW where I started playing had a 3 color minimum for an army, and they wanted them based as well.
Thats complete bull. Not only would I never spend a single dime in a place with that attitude, but I would make every effort to divert other players to other retail or online sources. If they want things finished to a certain quality level then they can provide them, or deal with waht i bring. Now if this was a private clubs rules that would be fine...but for a business to make demands like that...far to snobby and unacceptable.
Personally, I prefer to have everything completely built and painted before I use it. Doesnt always work out that way, but I try. Now its been about 12 years since Ive played anything in a retail store. I do all my gaming at my house or a friends.
I could care less about how much or how well someone elses army is painted, but being partially assembled would be annoying. Not only would they need to be clear about what each unit was, but I might make them park a small note next to each one with the major details just so I dont have to keep asking or guessing. Also keeps things form changing during the game.
So where do you draw the line?
Some of us draw it at what I would call minimum standard.
You draw it at assembled.
We've had people who want tp lay the game with movement trays as models.
Everyone has their line where they say to themselves.... "This is just too much."
You want to draw people away from the only local place to play? Doesnt seem that sensible to me. There is, as far as I can tell, about 3 places in my city that I can regularly get a game in, if I'm interested. All 3 are 30+ minutes commute time via transit. If I want to get a game in, I pretty much have to play at the local GW. Why would I want to drive their customers away? So I have no place to play? I'd rather play at a place that has a painted army standard for gaming, than not play at all.
I started the hobby, and the standard was 'painted army'. So that's the standard that I feel is proper. Others obviously differ. Its interesting how vehement the opinions are.
The problem is, a 3 colour rule doesn't work for everything. Look at Necrons - they were designed to be pained very simply. Silver, and another colour to pick out details looks fine. Look at Tyranids - there's examples in the codex of two colour pain schemes, and they look great. A 3 colour rule just forces you to complicate your colour scheme.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Basecoated, metal and then highlight is 3 colors.
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Post by: -Loki-
Eh, the highlight counts? Most of the time (unless you're going for a Tron looking army) it's the same colour, just lighter.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Why wouldn't it? It's a third color of paint, right?
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Post by: Major Malfunction
Three colors is pretty damn basic:
Marines: Base color, Black or Red Bolter, Green or Red Eyes.
Nid: Base color, Red Eyes, White Teeth and Claws.
Necrons: Boltgun Metal, Black Gun, Green Eyes.
It's not really that hard. You can do a three color job on a 2000 point Necron army in the space of a few evenings.
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Post by: wolfshadow
For my Necrons: Boltgun basecoat, green eyes and cables, chainmail spines, purple ink over elites and command spines. Done. (For inital play)
Later detial work included some gold detail work on Immortals and Lords, and some more green and red detail work on scarabs, destroyers, and tomb spyders.
Playable standard for 1000 points: about 3-4 hours, including drying time.
Detail work added later: about 20-24 hours for the army.
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Post by: -Loki-
Since it includes highlighting, it's reasonable. I was thinking they were also trying to stop people doing two colour armies (with highlighting), which do look fine if done right. Eyes though... I never do eyes. Might try on my Nids, but feth they're small eyes.
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Post by: Peter Wiggin
-Loki- wrote:Eh, the highlight counts? Most of the time (unless you're going for a Tron looking army) it's the same colour, just lighter.
 K.
Moving along......
If I saw ANY game store refuse to let someone play on the basis that they didn't paint their mini's I would inform said game store employee's that I would no longer be spending money at their store. However if someone pulled out My Little Pony dolls to use for figures (pretty marines are allowed ponies) I'd laugh. Maybe even in a mean way.
The generalization of "it only takes XXXX time to paint XXXX army" is purely foolish. I promise you there are guys out there that spend extreme amounts of time on a Necron or Tyranid army. Hell, I happen to think that Tyranids are some of the more enjoyable mini's to paint. If you'd like to disagree I'll be happy to take some pictures of Necron mini's at my FLGS sitting next to their respective GD trophy. <shrug>
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Post by: Scott-S6
agnosto wrote:There's really no "let" to it. If they were such sticklers, they'd be ostracizing potential, paying customers. I don't know what kind of business your family friend runs but if they can make a living by excluding potential paying customers, so be it, good for them. I'm sure that the shop down the road that could care less as long as they bring their money will laugh all the way to the bank.
It may be a little more complex than that. The more time and effort that someone has invested in their army, the more likely they are to continue to play in the long term. Much easier to buy stuff, get bored and sell it when you're not invested in those models. Also, you're ensuring that the games people play in the store are much more visually impressive for potential customers. So, by enforcing a painting standard, the store owner might actually be encouraging long term business at the expense of some short-term business. That was certainly the reasoning behind GW's always-painted policy. (and it should be pointed out, it certainly never hurt GW. Are GW's current decline and the current dropping of painting standards in some stores related?)
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Post by: The Decapitator
Obviously jus my humble opinion, and whilst I will play anyone no matter what sort of state their army is in, I prefer to play an army that has had some time invested in the look of it.
If I play a game with someone one week, and then 2 weeks later I play the same army and I see that they have started painting it then that's fine with me. But if they don't even bother at all, I kind of feel like they don't care the hobby, which is a shame as so many people do.
I do understand that it takes time and effort to paint, I don't get as much time to paint anymore and I seem to be purchasing new models quicker than I can paint them, but I will at least try and paint as and when I can as I do enjoy it and think it adds an extra dynamic to a game and helps with the story.
Just my thoughts anyway.....
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Post by: Kilkrazy
wolfshadow wrote:Crantor wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:Every time you play a game with another person, the two of you have to agree how to play the game.
Very many tabletop wargame players enjoy the game because it is played with painted figures.
It is foolish to expect them to agree to play with unpainted figures if they don't want to for aesthetic reasons.
Yep. Agreed. It' just people who do that don't have to come on a forum and label those that don't abide by that "Terrible Hobbyists"
I dont agree with the thread title.
I just find it interesting how different things are from 5 years ago. As I said before, the whole local gaming scene where I am pretty much depended on you showing up with a painted army.
I dont care if its not finished. Lots of people played with WIP stuff. But everything adhered to the 3 color rule.
GW are partly responsible for this by allowing unpainted armies to be used in store and in competitions like 'Ard Boys.
Naturally they would rather people buy more and more models, rather than waste time painting figures. It does give the lie to their claim to be the wargames hobby.
I fully understand that people are enthused about the fluff and rules, and want to get playing as quickly as possible. Modern life is more about instant gratification than ever before.
The thing is, there are plenty of games which you can play out of the box, and don't require painting. Whereas the core point of playing tabletop miniature games is to create a colourful, attractive spectacle with your army and terrain. That's why there is such resistance to people playing with bare armies.
To be fair, though, the thread title is rather provocative.
This issue comes up regularly and always polarises opinion.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Kilkrazy wrote:GW are partly responsible for this by allowing unpainted armies to be used in store and in competitions like 'Ard Boys.
So, is the dropping of painting requirements by GW connected to their current decline?
I feel that it is. That reduced attachment that people have to their unpainted armies makes it much easier for them to quit the game.
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Post by: Avatar 720
Whereas the core point of playing tabletop miniature games is to create a colourful, attractive spectacle with your army and terrain.
I thought it was to have fun really... at least, that's why I joined the hobby; because I thought it would be fun.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Avatar 720 wrote:Whereas the core point of playing tabletop miniature games is to create a colourful, attractive spectacle with your army and terrain.
I thought it was to have fun really... at least, that's why I joined the hobby; because I thought it would be fun.
Obviously, that's true of all games. However, the visual element of armies and terrain is what sets tabletop miniatures games apart from boardgames.
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Post by: zadelistol
Eh I know I've posted several times, but I want to add something new (this time)
Roughly three months after my friend and I had started I had a full squad basecoated(as well as most my army)
and my friend had nothing painted(or primed for that matter)
and I kept harping on him so he spent one night painting one of his captains to a very impressive standard, it was so hard to get him to paint at all.
Up until recent months he still had over half his megaforce untouched, now he only has I think one LR left to build.
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Post by: Crantor
Scott-S6 wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:GW are partly responsible for this by allowing unpainted armies to be used in store and in competitions like 'Ard Boys.
So, is the dropping of painting requirements by GW connected to their current decline?
I feel that it is. That reduced attachment that people have to their unpainted armies makes it much easier for them to quit the game.
Um, I'm pretty sure the economy is playing a bigger part than some lack of painting requirement. Having players come to your store to play means that there is a chance they will buy something as well, even if it is just glue or a white dwraf issue. As far as I know, my local GW store still enforces the painted and based rule. A rule I understand. GW is a business and marketing is huge. By having players play in-store with painted armies, they have a free advertising tool that customers can see. they see a nice product that they might feel compelled to purchase by seeing the end result. Imagine coming to the store for the first time and seeing a half assembled all silver based army. Not an image GW wants to portray. Don't kid yourself, GW wants to sell models and they'll use you to do it. If some GW stores are relaxing their rules then it might be a sign that the regulars who come in are not spending as much as they would like to see so by bringing in the unpainted mob they hope that they might sell more product (maybe even paint). More people in your store means more sales. By excluding one part of your customer base you are essentially keeping them out of your store.
By excluding a segment of the gaming community for whatever reason makes it much easier for them to quit the game because you've created a reason for them to reduce their attachment.
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Post by: Scott-S6
I'm sure that makes sense short term. But does it makes sense long term? Or is it encouraging lower levels of commitment from players?
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Post by: BluntmanDC
-Loki- wrote:Since it includes highlighting, it's reasonable. I was thinking they were also trying to stop people doing two colour armies (with highlighting), which do look fine if done right. Eyes though... I never do eyes. Might try on my Nids, but feth they're small eyes.
have you tried using very small nibbed pens, you can get them in 0.5mm width
OT i don't mind how far along a persons army is, although i do prefer seeing painted armies, the one thing i don't like is the person who has the same army of unpainted space marines who jumps from codex to codex, just so he can lord over you
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Post by: Crantor
Well, look at it from this point. You are not encouraging a player to be more commited by excluding him. More the opposite.
Some players refuse to play a younger player. Wrong attitude. I`ve played younger players and yeah, some are over enthusiastic. It would be nice to be as enthusiastic about some things again the way they are. But I won't refuse a game with them. Hopefully they'll come away from it having learned something that will improve them. Same thing by including non-painted armies. By being inclusive they see what they might be able to achieve. That will encourage them more than saying, sorry but until you paint to my standard I'm not playing you. Frankly you would turn someone off the hobby much quicker that way.
My line of work involves a lot of mentoring and positive reinforcement works a lot better than negative reinforcement.
My gaming group likes to poke friendly jabs at each other about our paint jobs and terrain making skills. Hell, I make it a priority sometimes to target a model just because it`s painted so well and buddy put all that effort into it only to watch it die on turn one lol.
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Post by: Forgotmytea
Monster Rain wrote:Crantor wrote:To be fair though I think more players leave the game due to prices, rule changes or lack of gaming opportunities or even life changes..
For me, 40k was always about hanging out with friends.
Since I moved, I find that I enjoy the hobby a lot less when playing with strangers.
Ditto. Though I'm probably about to move back, so I'll get to see them again.
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Post by: UsdiThunder
Scott-S6 wrote:So, by enforcing a painting standard, the store owner might actually be encouraging long term business at the expense of some short-term business.
That was certainly the reasoning behind GW's always-painted policy. (and it should be pointed out, it certainly never hurt GW. Are GW's current decline and the current dropping of painting standards in some stores related?)
To be honest, I think that GW's Policy for 3 color minimum is to sell their overpriced paints, not to foster any kind of player. It has been said that a new 40k player will buy more in their first year than a veteran will buy in three. Furthermore a new player will be the first to balk at being refused a game. They have the least invested in it.
My point in all of this has not been whether painted or unpainted is right or wrong. My point is that refusing games is a slippery slope for any game that has a social component to it. Whether by Eliteism, Painting Nazis, WAAC Players, or Lazy McPlayer we are all responsible for the growth of our community and the game.
Killkrazy wrote:The thing is, there are plenty of games which you can play out of the box, and don't require painting. Whereas the core point of playing tabletop miniature games is to create a colourful, attractive spectacle with your army and terrain. That's why there is such resistance to people playing with bare armies.
I humbly disagree, the point of playing tabletop miniature games is to play the game. This is why it is called a tabletop miniature game.
This is like a recent conversation overheard between two parents at a girl scout meeting my wife had at our house. The gist was that they had to be wearing the proper tennis apparel to play tennis. The mom said it wasn't playing tennins if they were just in play clothes. So with a few questions asked the mom revealed that they had 2 outfits for tournaments, and 6 outfits for practice.
The point I'm trying to make is that for tournaments it is more than fair to require 3 color minimums and such, but for "practice" it shouldn't matter whether or not they are painted. Anything else is an arbitrary imposition on to the player.
edited for spelling
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Post by: Scott-S6
UsdiThunder wrote:My point is that refusing games is a slippery slope for any game that has a social component to it.
However, if the social contract as that all miniatures are painted then there is no "refusing" and the standard is, generally, not questioned since that's what everyone adheres to.
UsdiThunder wrote:The point I'm trying to make is that for tournaments it is more than fair to require 3 color minimums and such, but for "practice" it shouldn't matter whether or not they are painted. Anything else is an arbitrary imposition on to the player.
Since the vast majority of 40K players don't play in tournaments I really don't see that this is relevant.
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Post by: Mad4Minis
wolfshadow wrote:Mad4Minis wrote:wolfshadow wrote: My GW where I started playing had a 3 color minimum for an army, and they wanted them based as well.
Thats complete bull. Not only would I never spend a single dime in a place with that attitude, but I would make every effort to divert other players to other retail or online sources. If they want things finished to a certain quality level then they can provide them, or deal with waht i bring. Now if this was a private clubs rules that would be fine...but for a business to make demands like that...far to snobby and unacceptable.
Personally, I prefer to have everything completely built and painted before I use it. Doesnt always work out that way, but I try. Now its been about 12 years since Ive played anything in a retail store. I do all my gaming at my house or a friends.
I could care less about how much or how well someone elses army is painted, but being partially assembled would be annoying. Not only would they need to be clear about what each unit was, but I might make them park a small note next to each one with the major details just so I dont have to keep asking or guessing. Also keeps things form changing during the game.
You want to draw people away from the only local place to play? Doesnt seem that sensible to me. There is, as far as I can tell, about 3 places in my city that I can regularly get a game in, if I'm interested. All 3 are 30+ minutes commute time via transit. If I want to get a game in, I pretty much have to play at the local GW. Why would I want to drive their customers away? So I have no place to play? I'd rather play at a place that has a painted army standard for gaming, than not play at all.
1) My point was that a place who wants people to spend money there shouldnt be so snobby, or expect backlash. If I go to a place to game and they are going to pick apart my army to make sure its up to their standards, then they can fark themselves, Im out. I wont be returning to play amd surely not to spend any money.
2) I take it since you need a public location to host your games you dont personally know anyone who plays, and require random pick-up games? Ive gone over 12 years without a LGS or GW and have spent many, many hours gaming. However, my gaming groups have always consisted of people I know and we simply game at someones house. For example I have a 5x3 foot dining room table that works good for most size games, and Ive collected a decent amount of terrain over time.
You dont need to put up with everything a place decides to dish just because they offer a place to game.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Many players are not interested in playing with unpainted armies, and have no interest in encouraging that type of play.
This isn't any kind of a moral position, it is simply a preference of spending one's free time, the same way some people prefer cricket to football.
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Post by: UsdiThunder
Scott-S6 wrote:However, if the social contract as that all miniatures are painted then there is no "refusing" and the standard is, generally, not questioned since that's what everyone adheres to.
Since the vast majority of 40K players don't play in tournaments I really don't see that this is relevant.
It's relevant because Tournaments can enforce painting of models with out stigma attached. If a store starts doing it then they lose customers, and most, if not all cannot afford to lose customers.
There is no contract to speak of, the only time I knew that painting models was mandatory was when I started playing in Tournaments. Before then I played at home with friends or when I played friends at the FLGS. No where in the BRB, at the store, or in my codexes has it been said that painting is mandatory. You can't have a contract based on heresay, or personal preference.
I personally enjoy playing against a painted army, but at the same time I won't refuse to play someone unless they give me a true good reason.
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Post by: Scott-S6
UsdiThunder wrote:It's relevant because Tournaments can enforce painting of models with out stigma attached. If a store starts doing it then they lose customers, and most, if not all cannot afford to lose customers.
How does that work? You've asserted that painting standards in a store would drive customers away. But painting standards in a tournament do not? Automatically Appended Next Post: UsdiThunder wrote: No where in the BRB, at the store, or in my codexes has it been said that painting is mandatory. You can't have a contract based on heresay, or personal preference.
Painted models only has been the standard in GW stores for 25-odd years. It has been relaxed only recently and only in some areas - as such, for many older players, there is an implicit expectation of painted models.
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Post by: Crantor
Tournaments are a different ball game designed to appeal to the more serious gamer. Painting, comp and win/loss are all factors. Some tournaments disallow special characters or forgeworld models others allow for some.
So if someone says "No special characters" they must be bad hobbyests because they are not considering everything. Just like the guy who doesn`t read HH novels or maybe the guy who only likes converting models or how about that guy who refuses to play anyone who plays a certain army a certain way...
Whatever.
This thread I think has gone on long enough and we are spinning in circles. Agree to disagree.
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Post by: Doombot001
Dang,
Read through almost the entire thread (missed pages 2 and 3).
Unfortunately, my mind is still the same going into reading this thing as it stands as of this post. I can't paint to save my life, and I use washes faaaar to liberally to cover up my horrible painting. But I'm proud of what I've painted even though I know mostly everyone can paint better than me.
Since I know I suck at painting, I'm pretty fair at judging everyone elses painting. I don't mind shoddy painting so long as its painted.
Refusing to play because their army is not painted to your standard? That's pretty elitist and to be brutally honest, stuck up. I'm pretty sure you're not a Michelangelo yourself.
Scott-S6 brings up a good point about painting and tournaments. If you're not in a tourney, what does it matter if your guys aren't painted up to standard?
The only exception is if an army isn't even put togeter...like guys are missing arms or all you're playing is bases with no guys on em. That is what isn't so great. I'll play against the army, but inside I get a little disappointed.
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Post by: Mad4Minis
Crantor wrote:Tournaments are a different ball game designed to appeal to the more serious gamer.
Thats the bottom line on that. Tournaments are pretty much a special case...they offer larger scale recognition and should be held to higher standards.
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Post by: Doombot001
Mad4Minis wrote:Crantor wrote:Tournaments are a different ball game designed to appeal to the more serious gamer.
Thats the bottom line on that. Tournaments are pretty much a special case...they offer larger scale recognition and should be held to higher standards.
This is true. Any tournament has its special rules. That's why its a TOURNAMENT and not a pickup game. The recongition you get for playing (and possibly winning) is what sets the standard.
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Post by: Peter Wiggin
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Post by: Destrado
Doombot001 wrote:Refusing to play because their army is not painted to your standard? That's pretty elitist and to be brutally honest, stuck up. I'm pretty sure you're not a Michelangelo yourself.
While I agree with your post, and many others, I'm a bit fed up with the elitist talk.
So everyone says it's lack of respect/consideration/empathy not to play an opponent because his army isn't fully painted.
However, no one considers the people who spend countless hours painting, labouring over an entire army, with more or less skill and dedication.
No one takes into account that for some people, the hobby experience is painting/modelling and wargaming as a whole. Playing with a full painted army over carefully built and painted terrain is part of an experience, adding to the "epicness" of it all. Why should people who have dedicated money and time to get their armies done are insulted? Isn't it also their right to pick who they play?
On the same subject, would everyone here play against Pretty/Hello Kitty Marines? Or Ork armies using an Orc fantasy army?
Might as well play with Legos or paper models like the ones in W40k 2nd Edition.
Just to reiterate, I would play against an opponent without a painted army. I pick my opponents based on other factors, but I'd prefer them to have a painted army. Part of me enjoying the battle is just that, as pitting two different armies creates a story, evokes a feeling that is much more than a bunch of miniatures; it really makes it look like two armies, two opposing forces.
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Post by: UsdiThunder
Scott-S6 wrote:UsdiThunder wrote:It's relevant because Tournaments can enforce painting of models with out stigma attached. If a store starts doing it then they lose customers, and most, if not all cannot afford to lose customers.
How does that work? You've asserted that painting standards in a store would drive customers away. But painting standards in a tournament do not?
Like you said here Scott-S6 wrote:Since the vast majority of 40K players don't play in tournaments I really don't see that this is relevant
.
Most people who play 40k don't play in Tourneys, and to play in the tourney you have to play by the rules of the tourney. It is 100% voluntary to play in the tourney, but for those poeple looking to play with other players finding another store to play at is not voluntary. It may be the only store for hours.
Scott-S6 wrote:UsdiThunder wrote: No where in the BRB, at the store, or in my codexes has it been said that painting is mandatory. You can't have a contract based on heresay, or personal preference.
Painted models only has been the standard in GW stores for 25-odd years. It has been relaxed only recently and only in some areas - as such, for many older players, there is an implicit expectation of painted models.
Maybe this is a difference in cultures. Here in Dayton, OH across the pond we don't have a GW store within hours of us, we have 2 FLGS. FLGS here out number the GW stores. In America out of 50 states we have only 12 states with GW stores. Our FLGS don't have a minimum painted policy unless it's a tournament, and even then there might not be one. Here loss of customers means we lose a store. If we lost our two stores here the closest would be 1.5 hours away in Cincinatti.
My opinion has been colored by where I've learned how to play. To be honest I doubt I would of gotten into 40k if I had someone refuse to play me when I first started. I doubt I would of bought anything from the store that said to play here you must have your miniatures painted. I would figure that paying $37.25 for 10 plastic army men from the store would of shown enough support to the store to play the game there.
I once thought it would be a blast to go to a GW store and play, but since less than 50% of my armies are painted, I'd rather not risk it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yes I would play against hello kitty marines, pretty marines, even against Ultramarines
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd also play against Female marines with over sized chestplates too
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Post by: Kilkrazy
You are confusing the purchase into the GW authorised universe with entry into the wider world of wargames. This is the root of the issue.
GW can of course enforce any standard they like in their own shops. IN recent years, their standards have become less onerous.
If you played at a typical club, who are interested in the interests of their members rather than maximising model sales, you would be gently discouraged from playing with unpainted figures.
At the same time, most clubs would offer you the chance to play with other people's painted figures while you got your army ready for the table.
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Post by: wolfshadow
Mad4Minis wrote:wolfshadow wrote:Mad4Minis wrote:wolfshadow wrote: My GW where I started playing had a 3 color minimum for an army, and they wanted them based as well.
Thats complete bull. Not only would I never spend a single dime in a place with that attitude, but I would make every effort to divert other players to other retail or online sources. If they want things finished to a certain quality level then they can provide them, or deal with waht i bring. Now if this was a private clubs rules that would be fine...but for a business to make demands like that...far to snobby and unacceptable.
Personally, I prefer to have everything completely built and painted before I use it. Doesnt always work out that way, but I try. Now its been about 12 years since Ive played anything in a retail store. I do all my gaming at my house or a friends.
I could care less about how much or how well someone elses army is painted, but being partially assembled would be annoying. Not only would they need to be clear about what each unit was, but I might make them park a small note next to each one with the major details just so I dont have to keep asking or guessing. Also keeps things form changing during the game.
You want to draw people away from the only local place to play? Doesnt seem that sensible to me. There is, as far as I can tell, about 3 places in my city that I can regularly get a game in, if I'm interested. All 3 are 30+ minutes commute time via transit. If I want to get a game in, I pretty much have to play at the local GW. Why would I want to drive their customers away? So I have no place to play? I'd rather play at a place that has a painted army standard for gaming, than not play at all.
1) My point was that a place who wants people to spend money there shouldnt be so snobby, or expect backlash. If I go to a place to game and they are going to pick apart my army to make sure its up to their standards, then they can fark themselves, Im out. I wont be returning to play amd surely not to spend any money.
2) I take it since you need a public location to host your games you dont personally know anyone who plays, and require random pick-up games? Ive gone over 12 years without a LGS or GW and have spent many, many hours gaming. However, my gaming groups have always consisted of people I know and we simply game at someones house. For example I have a 5x3 foot dining room table that works good for most size games, and Ive collected a decent amount of terrain over time.
You dont need to put up with everything a place decides to dish just because they offer a place to game.
I'm getting back into the hobby after a 6+ year absence, and a 5 year total disinterest in the hobby. I no longer have any friends that play the game, and have to make do with what is available if I want to play.
But even when I was playing regularly, the deal was we generally played at the store, as they had terrain, and tablespace that we lacked. The whole culture of the hobby in my area at the time, along with many other areas. (See S6's posts) was that you showed up witha basically painted army, or you used someone else's painted army to play, untill yours was painted. Heck, there were times when we would get together at the store before hand to paint up a unit for someone so they could play with their army that night.
So, it appears that there are different culture groups within different gaming areas.
@ your comment about voting with your pocketbook. Well, as I said before... If I want to game, I have to abide by the rules that the local scene has in place, or I dont get to game. And frankly, its not a rule I have a problem with, and actually I like the rule.
Different strokes for different folks.
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Post by: Scott-S6
agroszkiewicz wrote:Not to be a jerk, but I'm don't cry that much over FOTM people that cease to play.
Agreed. But is it in the long-term interests of the store and the hobby to try harder to retain them? Would a painting standard achieve that? Automatically Appended Next Post: UsdiThunder wrote: but for those poeple looking to play with other players finding another store to play at is not voluntary. It may be the only store for hours.
This is a part of the US wargaming scene I find quite odd - you really don't need to play in a store. (I've played literally one game in a store since 2nd edition was released). Is there some sort of cultural aversion to forming clubs? Is it much harder to find available space to use? Whatever the reason, playing at home or in clubs seems to be far more common in the UK than in the US. Automatically Appended Next Post: UsdiThunder wrote:Our FLGS don't have a minimum painted policy unless it's a tournament, and even then there might not be one. Here loss of customers means we lose a store. If we lost our two stores here the closest would be 1.5 hours away in Cincinatti.
My opinion has been colored by where I've learned how to play. To be honest I doubt I would of gotten into 40k if I had someone refuse to play me when I first started.
I think that this is why this issue tends to get a little heated, there is a very fundamental cultural difference at work. It wouldn't be a case of people refusing to play you when you got started. Rather, you would get started with the aspiration of getting an army painted quickly so that you could play. The expectation is completely different right from your first moment of contact with the hobby. If you've never seen an unpainted unit on the tabletop you wouldn't consider trying to get a game when your army was unpainted. Clearly, painting standards do not drive customers away - GW have done just fine with those standards in place. Trying to change the existing social contract among a stores player base by imposing one where there was not one previously would be a very different story, however.
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Post by: Peter Wiggin
Scott-S6 wrote:agroszkiewicz wrote:Not to be a jerk, but I'm don't cry that much over FOTM people that cease to play.
Agreed. But is it in the long-term interests of the store and the hobby to try harder to retain them? Would a painting standard achieve that?
Nah, them gaks would still jump ship to the new "cool" game. 40k is flat out too time consuming and expensive to keep non-dedicated fans for long.
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Post by: Da Butcha
Speaking as one of the "Terrible Hobbyists", I simply don't enjoy painting, at all. It stresses me out, tires my eyes, and always leaves me frustrated. Models almost never look like what I intended them to look like. Any enjoyment that I derive from painting is usually removed when I finally give up on getting a model to look exactly like I had planned (even though other people really seem to like them).
In addition, I enjoy the creativity of coming up with a paint scheme, not executing it again and again. I can paint an individual model to a pretty good standard (one that garners compliments), but repeating that paint scheme on more models just kills my interest.
I do like painted armies. I do appreciate how good the game looks when it is played by two painted armies.
However, I really enjoy playing, and I really enjoy modeling. It's very hard for me to spend my recreational time doing something that I don't like doing. I am totally willing to do things I don't like because I need to (such as work, or housecleaning). However, when I am trying to do something for FUN, I want it to be something that I actually enjoy.
I probably should have played Bretonnians, so that I could reasonably paint each model in a different way.
I do have a fully painted Necron Army, which was primed, sprayed with Boltgun Metal spray when GW made it, detailed with black on the guns, green on the tubes, and gold on the icons, then ink-washed in the crevices. They are well based, and the entire army has a clean, neat, consistent look to it. The army actually looks pretty darn good (painting bright silver under the gauss rods made them reflect light back up into the tubes), but it is also the army that I have the least interest in. I don't think I've played them for several years. There's nothing else in the army that I want to buy, or assemble, or paint.
I don't blame people for only wanting to play against painted models. However, please don't act like there is some universal hobby timeline which we all must follow, where the "good hobbyist" shows up each week with a little more progress made on his models, and the budding painter slowly becomes more adept. Some people buy individual models to paint and never assemble an army. They are a hobbyist too. I don't paint not because I am making excuses, or because I'm not good at it, but because I find it a frustrating, unenjoyable task. Perhaps if I could find a way to enjoy it more, I might paint more often.
I'm trying out something different to see if that helps: a Praetorian Armored Company. If I can play my cards right, all I will need is 2 squads of 10 Veterans, one 5 man command squad, and a bunch of tanks (which I seem to enjoy painting a little more than smaller models). Given that I only have 2 Troops squads for all those objective missions, I don't think I can reasonably be accused of power-gaming. Maybe painting less models per army will help.
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Post by: UsdiThunder
Scott-S6 wrote: Is there some sort of cultural aversion to forming clubs? Is it much harder to find available space to use? Whatever the reason, playing at home or in clubs seems to be far more common in the UK than in the US.
To play at home, which I regularly do, I have to use my kitchen area or my garage to get the space needed for a 6x4 table +players, supplies, snacks, etc... I only have one person to play against here.
At a store there are anywhere from 6 to 12 tables, 6+ players willing to play, plus gets me away from the house after 45+ hour week with an extra 7.5 hours worth of commuting, family dramas, and lets me focus on the game without distractions.
Clubs have a negative connotation here. Clubs are what children belong to in school, or what motorcycle gangs belong to.
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Post by: -Loki-
BluntmanDC wrote:-Loki- wrote:Since it includes highlighting, it's reasonable. I was thinking they were also trying to stop people doing two colour armies (with highlighting), which do look fine if done right. Eyes though... I never do eyes. Might try on my Nids, but feth they're small eyes.
have you tried using very small nibbed pens, you can get them in 0.5mm width
My detail brush is smaller than that, I still can't do it. When I try to do details, my hands shake, and I haven't found a reliable way to brace them. Until I do, eyes will go unpainted.
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Post by: Alphapod
I personally fall in the middle here; one army painted to a standard far below par (Dark Angels), one army painted to a tabletop standard (mostly) (Tau), and one army that is about 1/3 painted, varying from slightly sub-par to slightly above-par (Eldar). I find painting to be fun but it can rapidly become tedious if not sustained with regular games. I personally don't have issues playing unpainted armies. Some people play 40K just to play; who am I to look down on them (especially they usually beat me)? That said, I admire a well painted army and honestly battles between two painted forces acquire a degree of epicness unknown to the land of gray plastics. On a final note, I have fortunately never encountered a person who attempts to run unpainted marines as every codex. I consider myself lucky.
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Post by: Laughing God
Lol look at the chaos ive created with this thread. Im in no way trolling but trying to form a rational debate and in the process sturred up a civil war of sorts. I think we are beating a dead horse in a ways as people keep repeating the same opinions over and over the fact still remains "people are just different" and there is no right or wrong person in this. Its just best that everyone play the game how they will and however they have fun.
All this because of one phrase I think..."Terrible Hobbyists"
Tell you what if I change the term to painting haters, or gamers vs hobbists, will that resove all our issues?
If a guy showes up FOR A YEAR with models modeled like the ones posted earlier on this thread and painted horribly, or not painted at all just because he wants to POWERGAME (just takes enjoyment from winning, no actual social enjoyment for just gamplay)and they start all over again the next time he thinks a cheese list surfaces... Im srry if you fit this description you are a TERRIBLE HOBBYIST and if that makes me a "nazi,elitist, pompus duech" then I will accept that and not play you and enjoy my game with one of my friends or a complete stranger that doesnt fit THAT^ description. They can continue playing the game how they want and prolly have fun, save alot of time and money, and be cancer free (apparently o_0) but they shouldnt plan on making many friends or finding many people to play while they continue powergaming with ugly models you bought off ebay or just never painted a year ago.
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Post by: Pacific
Reading this thread has made me pretty sad. There seems to be a pretty fierce and vehement defense of having unpainted miniatures.
I think things have been going around in circles a bit, with people seemingly taking things a bit personally (which is never a nice situation), so I will raise another point:
Is anyone else aware that in some of the LGS, paints are no longer provided free of charge?
I think this is a really sad situation - a lot of younger hobbyists are put off by the cost of paints (and even a minimum collection you are talking $50+).
This is not a good way of getting the new generation into what, for many people, is a large chunk of the hobby.
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Post by: Son_Of _Deddog
I realise this is getting off the point slightly, but could plastics be moulded pre-coloured?? Ork bodies green, trousers red , marines blue (or some suitalble colour) etc?? Then unpainted armies might not look so bad to those who have the time/money/patience/inclination/enter-your-reason-here to paint armies .
Would that be practical??
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Post by: Scott-S6
UsdiThunder wrote:Clubs have a negative connotation here. Clubs are what children belong to in school, or what motorcycle gangs belong to.
That's interesting. A lot (quite possibly the majority) of gaming in the UK happens in clubs. Automatically Appended Next Post: Son_Of _Deddog wrote:I realise this is getting off the point slightly, but could plastics be moulded pre-coloured?? Ork bodies green, trousers red , marines blue (or some suitalble colour) etc?? Then unpainted armies might not look so bad to those who have the time/money/patience/inclination/enter-your-reason-here to paint armies .
Would that be practical??
Pre-painted is actually easier/cheaper to do. Look at starwars minis, AT-43, the deluxe edition of Dust: Tactics.
Some people love the idea. Some hate it.
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Post by: Melissia
@OP: At least he had his army painted, even if he didn't do a good job. Sure, it was crappy so he didn't want to claim it as his own, but still. Better than most...
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Post by: Pacific
I think 'pre-painted' is OK ( AT-43 looked good), but I think the painting/modelling aspect of the hobby is inseparable from the gaming, at least as far as the current companies direction goes. Look at how much of the new WFB rulebook is dedicated to fantastic looking set-ups and models, it's impossible not to be enthused by!
Maybe in the future, if attention spans continue to decline, it might become a possibility for the company. Personally, I think if that happens they may as well sell to Bandai or Hasbro and be done with it.
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Post by: Melissia
No it's not. I'm not "enthused" about it. I dread painting, and it's a chore that I wish I could afford to make someone else do.
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Post by: Scott-S6
I used to be of the some mindset. But there are ways of painting that are quick, easy and give decent results. These guys, for example, I painted all six squads in a weekend.  On the other hand, I really enjoy painting tanks.
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Post by: Melissia
To be fair, I don't mind painting tanks, but I can't STAND painting infantry. Which sucks, given that I like infantry-based armies...
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Post by: Pacific
OK, well there are always a few exceptions!
The sight of two well painted (well, not even well painted, just functionally so) armies on some good terrain is payment enough for the time and effort you have to put into use of your leisure time in my book.
Although, with a continuing reduction of points cost, and ever bigger armies for both WFB and 40k I can see more and more of this kind of thread becoming the norm in the future. Certainly, it makes some of the specialist games a more viable option if you insist on having a fully painted force!
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Son_Of _Deddog wrote:I realise this is getting off the point slightly, but could plastics be moulded pre-coloured?? Ork bodies green, trousers red , marines blue (or some suitalble colour) etc?? Then unpainted armies might not look so bad to those who have the time/money/patience/inclination/enter-your-reason-here to paint armies .
Would that be practical??
Yes, easily, though it might possibly push up the price of kits (Ha! Ha! Ha!)
The better Gundam kits are moulded in up to six colours, sometimes with two colours in a single sprue frame, to allow the kit to be completely finished without any painting. Final detailing is done with markers and stickers.
I have suggested this several times for SMs in particular. They would work really well with a choice of coloured heads, torsos, legs/arms, pauldrons (different left and right if you want) and backpacks.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Kilkrazy wrote:The better Gundam kits are moulded in up to six colours, sometimes with two colours in a single sprue frame, to allow the kit to be completely finished without any painting. Final detailing is done with markers and stickers.
Sometimes four colours on a sprue with coloured markings moulded in.
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Post by: The Decapitator
Im sorry but am I the only one who is absolutely horrified by this idea?!? Pre-painted models?? How on earth are you meant to recreate the level of detail and high/lowlights and shades which go into a fantastically painted model? Not only that but even for someone who doesn't enjoy painting, the feeling of a job well done when you can stand back from a well painted model/squad would be totally lost!
Pre painted models is just lazy, if you HATE painting that much then i'm sure nobody would complain if you sprayed your models in one colour and picked out faces and guns in a couple of different ones. A perfectly acceptable table standard army which could be done in an hour, and with 4 paints.
If you pre paint/mould models with colour then from a hobby point of view you are taking away a massive chunk of the game which a huge percentage enjoy. Not only that but you are also, from a buisness point of view, at risk of losing a vast majority of GW enthusiasts revenue which could potentially put them out of buisness. The amount they would lose in paint sales alone would be massive! Why not go the whole hog and just sell fully assembled, painted plastic soldiers instead. Or sod it, let's just make an Xbox game and all sit indoors playing online, at least we wouldn't have to worry about getting a game!
Parents love their kids starting in GW games because they are not just sitting in front of the TV playing Xbox, but are doing something creative. Like someone before said, if they did this then they might as well sell up to Hasbro or the like.
GW has been a profitable company for many years and have expanded year on year, so they must be doing something right. Making a change like those discussed wouldn't make it GW anymore, just another generic toy soldier producer.
If it ain't broke, then don't fix it!
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Post by: Monster Rain
The Decapitator wrote:Im sorry but am I the only one who is absolutely horrified by this idea?!? Pre-painted models??
If people had the option, and it saved me looking at some of the gray mess of doom across the table on occasion, I really wouldn't have a problem with it.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
The Decapitator wrote:Im sorry but am I the only one who is absolutely horrified by this idea?!? Pre-painted models?? How on earth are you meant to recreate the level of detail and high/lowlights and shades which go into a fantastically painted model? Not only that but even for someone who doesn't enjoy painting, the feeling of a job well done when you can stand back from a well painted model/squad would be totally lost!
Pre painted models is just lazy, if you HATE painting that much then i'm sure nobody would complain if you sprayed your models in one colour and picked out faces and guns in a couple of different ones. A perfectly acceptable table standard army which could be done in an hour, and with 4 paints.
If you pre paint/mould models with colour then from a hobby point of view you are taking away a massive chunk of the game which a huge percentage enjoy. Not only that but you are also, from a buisness point of view, at risk of losing a vast majority of GW enthusiasts revenue which could potentially put them out of buisness. The amount they would lose in paint sales alone would be massive! Why not go the whole hog and just sell fully assembled, painted plastic soldiers instead. Or sod it, let's just make an Xbox game and all sit indoors playing online, at least we wouldn't have to worry about getting a game!
Parents love their kids starting in GW games because they are not just sitting in front of the TV playing Xbox, but are doing something creative. Like someone before said, if they did this then they might as well sell up to Hasbro or the like.
GW has been a profitable company for many years and have expanded year on year, so they must be doing something right. Making a change like those discussed wouldn't make it GW anymore, just another generic toy soldier producer.
If it ain't broke, then don't fix it!
I could care less, to be honest. If you're buying Something like "Blood angels accessories", I think it would be okay...But definitely not an entire tactical squad or something. It would be like SPACE HULK
GW used to do this with leman russ treads. I still have most of sprue of those beauties
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Post by: yournamehere
When I first started playing I didn't care, I made ork trukks outa Popsicle sticks, battle wagons out of tonka trucks and buggies out of dollar store vehicles.
Now I am a bit more concerning, I don't bring a model out to play at the store unless it's painted, I use a lot of the kits for vehicles now that I can afford them and though I am not going to win any awards for my army I take pride in making my army not only "mine" but fully painted and wysiwyg. With some decent converting going on in there.
I think it really comes down to an age thing, I mean there is occasionally a kid with a nicely done army but it's rare and thats fine by me, as they get older and more experienced and decide that they are actually going to stick with the game they start doing more, taking more care and getting more advanced and experienced and it all comes together.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
^^ Exactly that.
A lot of the people with bare armies are young'uns who don't have the skills. They don't acquire the skills because they are in and out of the game in a couple of years.
Pre-paints are a failed concept, at the moment. The quality/price balance is too poor, probably because figure wargamers are used to pretty high quality paintjobs which the Chinese can't replicate cheaply enough.
The multi-coloured plastic idea is a different thing. It works fine for Gundam. I don't see why it wouldn't work for SMs, and E/DE, Necrons and even Tau. Anything with chunks of uniform divided up for multiple colours. It isn't even a new idea, Matchbox were doing two-colour model kits in the 1970s.
I know there are people who are horrified by pre-paints and probably by multi-colour kits.
I would rather play against an OK looking pre-painted or multi-colour army than a grey army.
I think GW did the hobby quite a disservice by promoting Golden Demon, and 'Eavy Metal so strongly, which makes people think they need to paint their figures to an extraordinary standard, unachievable by most of of.
They did the hobby another disservice by dumping the "minimum three colours" rule for shop play and competitions.
But then, we must always remember that GW don't give a feth about the hobby except to the extent that it affect their share price.
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Post by: Peter Wiggin
Pre-painted mini's belong in board games or kidde crap like Mage Knight. I think it would defeat the whole point of WFB or 40k to have sprue's of prepainted mini's.
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Post by: wolfshadow
agroszkiewicz wrote:Pre-painted mini's belong in board games or kidde crap like Mage Knight. I think it would defeat the whole point of WFB or 40k to have sprue's of prepainted mini's.
Agreed.
/still wants to play against apinted armies.
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Post by: A Black Ram
I have a friend who refuses to update his Lizardmen. Has had them for almost 4 years now, most of them half painted, some the same ..poor looking first paint jobs that he did. So it's like a horde of rainbow, and it just bothers me.
I put so much time into my army, perfecting it and scratch sculpting, and he has the same army from way back when. He even uses necromunda models as saurus warriors. He is one of the few people I game with, but he just doesn't really care about the models I guess.
Then again, I am pretty fanatical when it comes to my hobby. Sculpting an entire skaven, and ogre kingdom armies, and what not. Oh well.
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Post by: Son_Of _Deddog
I never meant for the "pre painted" idea to replace painted models. It was merely a stop-gap measure; if you wanted to paint them you still could, but if you didn't it would still look better than a Grey Tide...I imagined something VERY basic to avoid the whole isse of prefentially not painting models.
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Post by: -Loki-
yournamehere wrote:I think it really comes down to an age thing, I mean there is occasionally a kid with a nicely done army but it's rare and thats fine by me, as they get older and more experienced and decide that they are actually going to stick with the game they start doing more, taking more care and getting more advanced and experienced and it all comes together.
I still see plenty of people who are older and have been in the hobby for years and either don't paint their stuff, or it's painted so quickly and badly it might as well not be painted.
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Post by: guiltl3ss
I was re-reading one of the booklets that came with my AoBR. In the section under painting, like 6 or so pages in, it says it's completely fine to have unpainted minis, but having them painted would look and feel better or what not. You can look for the pages yourself if you have it, but basically it says GW doesnt mind either way. I'm guessing tourney play is different, but casual play it really shouldn't matter. According to GW.
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Post by: zadelistol
I personally like the grey as a base for the plastic. Keeps it a neutral to avoid confusion(especially for me)
As a 3D modeler, it's always nice to have something a single color, even when adding another object to the original(like having a human model then adding an accessory)
I view the paint as the skin and such added later for a finish product.
So, if they made pre-colored sprues I would be shaking my head at GW and more then likely not buy alot of new models unless i truly truly needed them for my army.
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Post by: Cryonicleech
Everybody enjoys different aspects of the game and hobby, really. Some people (like myself) are quite into the game aspect, while some other (also like myself) are into the modeling and painting aspect.
I don't think it's fair to criticize unpainted or "poorly" painted armies because it's not fair to assume one individual's standard is the one that all hobbyists should strive to attain. I own 4 "armies" (Dark Elves, Dwarfs, Warriors of Chaos and Warmachine Cryx) and only three of these are actually fully painted. I've gotten some nice compliments on these armies, but I don't expect my opponent to have his armies fully painted, because I myself have an unpainted army. Even if I had 4 fully painted armies, I still think it's rude to assume that unpainted is lazy and/or disrespectful.
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Post by: loranafaeriequeen
I think that pre-painted minis makes the hobby into just a game. There are other pre-painted games out there, and the thing that makes Warhammer unique is the building and painting aspect. The desire to paint is the reason why I got into it.
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Post by: Melissia
No, the thing that makes warhammer unique is its lore. The miniatures GW produces haven't historically been THAT exceptional in quality, though they have ramped up the quality recently.
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Post by: Peter Wiggin
Melissia wrote:No, the thing that makes warhammer unique is its lore. The miniatures GW produces haven't historically been THAT exceptional in quality, though they have ramped up the quality recently.
I agree on the lore aspect...without it 40k is just another "dudes in space with guns" game.
However I feel that GW models have been a bit higher quality on average than the competition, and have felt that way since the mid 90's when I started painting. Not enough to justify GW's national debt generating levels of reimbursement, but a discernible difference none the less.
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Post by: Melissia
Their quality has improved ,but when I look at Rogue Trader models, or even second edition models... yech.
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Post by: Gavo
I would really love to paint my army. I got a very nicely painted set of infantry from a deal, and I've decided to use their color scheme as my own.
I just don't have much time at the moment.
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Post by: -Loki-
Gavo wrote:I would really love to paint my army. I got a very nicely painted set of infantry from a deal, and I've decided to use their color scheme as my own.
I just don't have much time at the moment.
Time is my biggest killer. I've got plenty to build and paint, and more on the way for Christmas. But it takes me about a month or two of on and off painting to paint a unit.
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Post by: Pacific
-Loki- wrote:yournamehere wrote:I think it really comes down to an age thing, I mean there is occasionally a kid with a nicely done army but it's rare and thats fine by me, as they get older and more experienced and decide that they are actually going to stick with the game they start doing more, taking more care and getting more advanced and experienced and it all comes together.
I still see plenty of people who are older and have been in the hobby for years and either don't paint their stuff, or it's painted so quickly and badly it might as well not be painted.
Ah, but thats because you are Loki, and you exist purely to sew confusion, chaos and laughter wherever you go! Don't see we can't see through your attempts at mischief, mr. god!
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Post by: loranafaeriequeen
I think right now I'm spending about two to three hours a weekend painting. I've gotten to where I'm finishing one or two at a time, but they're all kind of works in progress right now. It's very hard to say what my actual painting speed is.
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Post by: facypher
I had a friend who i tried to get into the hobby cause he saw my painted space marines and thought they were cool, so i took him to the local game store and he bought a warhammer fantasy starter box. We got home and he opened it up eager to play and said "hey these are not painted and put together like yours!" A few weeks later i became the proud owner of a warhammer starter set.
I think its 50/50 its fun cause its a game and part of the game is painting the models, without painted models, you might as well just be using bottle caps for "counts as"
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Post by: rivers64
Not at all. The models still look cool and represent what they are even if they aren't painted. Although quite honestly I don't mind a few caps "count as" at all if it comes down to it and is necessary.
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Post by: UsdiThunder
Laughing God wrote:If a guy showes up FOR A YEAR with models modeled like the ones posted earlier on this thread and painted horribly, or not painted at all just because he wants to POWERGAME (just takes enjoyment from winning, no actual social enjoyment for just gamplay)and they start all over again the next time he thinks a cheese list surfaces... Im srry if you fit this description you are a TERRIBLE HOBBYIST and if that makes me a "nazi,elitist, pompus duech" then I will accept that and not play you and enjoy my game with one of my friends or a complete stranger that doesnt fit THAT^ description. They can continue playing the game how they want and prolly have fun, save alot of time and money, and be cancer free (apparently o_0) but they shouldnt plan on making many friends or finding many people to play while they continue powergaming with ugly models you bought off ebay or just never painted a year ago.
I think this thread is boiled down to it's core point. As we see above the OP isn't a pompus, elitist, nazi, etc... By his description of what he despises is what essentially is a TFG is, which I can safely say 99% of us here at dakka and around the world whether in clubs, or in FLGS despise. He has said that he will play unpainted minis within reason, as long as you tell him the exact reason.
Yes, this thread is going around in cicrles, but what good discussion doesn't.
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Post by: Chimpsarse
When I was a kid and played this game I just wanted to have all the new models when they came out and have a big army or the next army. I would even buy (or get for Christmas : )) a new unit before I had even taken others out of the box.
I've just got back into the hobby and now I am refusing to buy anything else until I have painted what I have. You can still play small games as you build up the army and IMHO it gives you more satisfaction that you built/collected/modelled your own army rather than just bought a job lot off ebay.
I totally understand that many aren't too good at the painting (I am by no means brilliant myself) but some kind of effort makes a massive difference on the tabletop. If you have the skills to glue together the bloody fiddly (although much better and more detailed!) plastic miniatures that they have these days then surely you can throw a few colours on them?
No judging here though. I'll play anyone, but just prefer the fully painted opponent.
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Post by: guiltl3ss
To each their own. I love painting the most. Took a year before I even played. U think people view the game in different ways, but as long as thry enjoy themselves...isn't that what matters?
After all, its only a game.
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Post by: Peter Wiggin
I think there are a lot of people that don't understand the concept of stripping your models if they turn out cruddy.
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Post by: Laughing God
agroszkiewicz wrote:I think there are a lot of people that don't understand the concept of stripping your models if they turn out cruddy.
Simple Green folks... look the stuff up.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
agroszkiewicz wrote:I think there are a lot of people that don't understand the concept of stripping your models if they turn out cruddy.
Yeah. I received some models that literally had THREE paintjobs on them...Ugh...It was horrible....
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Post by: Melissia
That's the first thing you should do to any models you get off of ebay, heh.
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Post by: Lexx
Melissia wrote:That's the first thing you should do to any models you get off of ebay, heh.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
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Post by: GamzaTheChaos
Here you go! from my friends old collection that I now own
I have a whole army if you guys check out the paint/modeling section
you can see more pics! these guys had so much glue and pant on them i am going for a beat up scrappy kinda look.
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Post by: Shadowbrand
I enjoy painting and modeling. But I have not yet finished one of my armies. You could also say my work isn't table top quality. But it is painted to the best of my ability. My models look x10 better now that I have flocked the bases. And I love to play the game at my shop at the mall. And show people the game.
However... I do not care for the competitive scene at all.
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