Yeah, I know, the two vehicles have nothing really to do with each other, but I didn't want to make a thread for both. Anyway, what are some good strategies to use with these vehicles? Are they even worth taking?

punishers are only good for putting lots of wounds on a single model or messing up a unit that has 2+ saves as they take so many they fail some of them, like terminators. (but a executioner will still kill them better). They actually are a bit poor for just taking out massed infantry, the normal russ does it just as well if not better. Basilisks are good, but artillery and long ranged so good if your playing on a 12x6 table but otherwise hard to fit into a small force.

Basilisks for their points cost are well worth it. Even just one can wreak havoc with the enemy. Punisher's I don't like. It suffers from having what it does done better by other options. I would still take an executioner over it.

3 basilisks cost less than 10 terminators, and can ruin a heap more units quicker than terminators can (not saying their better all the time at all)

If you take 3 basilsisk (375 points) they can fire while moving, use multiple barrage to hit stuff outside of 36 extremely accurately, and str 9 ordnance has a good chance of penetrating even AV14 (1/3). Basilisks ruin hoards and MEQ. I cannot stop praising Basilisks, I wish I could afford 3, for I would surely field them all.

Punishers have their niché. They, with pask, get reroll to wound str 5 against MCs. Hitting roughly 12 times with the main gun alone, they will wound 4 times, with rerolls adding another 2 wounds. A trygon with a 3+ will fail 2 of those, which is decent damage output, but not enough. Add sponsons, and your going to do a lot more. Plasma cannons are useful for anti everything other than tanks, but putting another 2 heavy bolters and a heavy stubber raises the ROFPT (rate of fire per turn ) to 31, 29 str 5 and 3 str 4.

The sheer amount of dice means that luck can more easily fall in your favour, and you can seriously slaughter stuff like terminators with 30 shots. Rerolls to wound would mathhammer to about this:

29 str 5 shots fired: 20 hit, 15 wound, 2 or 3 armour passes on terminators = 120 + points down.

Sadly, the math hammer says the punisher sucks.

nevertellmetheodds wrote:punishers are only good for putting lots of wounds on a single model or messing up a unit that has 2+ saves as they take so many they fail some of them, like terminators. (but a executioner will still kill them better). They actually are a bit poor for just taking out massed infantry, the normal russ does it just as well if not better. Basilisks are good, but artillery and long ranged so good if your playing on a 12x6 table but otherwise hard to fit into a small force.

Why wouldn't the punisher be good against ork boyz? Doesn't it have something like 20 shots?

basilisk tactica:

1.) point
2.) smear


Punisher tactica:

1.) leave your punishers on the shelf until the next guard codex.
2.) SERIOUSLY! Did I just see you try to take that off the shelf?

Moving to Tactics.

I concur with everything said. The only time to take a punisher is if you just want to play with it. From a tactical point of view you're better off a different LR tank.

One note on Bassies moving and shooting: they can only move and direct fire. if you want to do a barrage fire they have to be stationary.

What I want to know is why is a Colossus 140 points, while a griffon is only 75? The extra point of ap, and the negation of cover is really worth 65 points? I won't take the griffon because its only s6 ap4, and I won't take the colossus 'cause it's 140 fricken points. I'd rather have a bassie, or rush a demolisher into their faces...

Basilisk's are arguably one of the best all around anti-infantry vehicle at guard disposal. For 125 points you can lay waste to infantry models either in our out of cover.

The Punisher.... meh... for the point cost of the Punisher w/ Pask I can have 3 Hydra flak tanks that have more range, are more acurate, are 2 points higher in strength, have AP, and can take 2 weapon destroyed per vehicle before they loose their Hyrda Cannons. Sure the Punisher has more armor, and about 8 more shots, but with 24" range, you generally only have one turn to shoot, before your tank is kaputski.

So Basilisk is good, Punisher is Heck-No (but if you substitute a Hydra Heck-Yes).

both of the mentioned vehicles are not quite worth their salt.

As mentioned, mathhammer defeats punisher everyday unless for fun games.

Sadly, I can not bring myself to bring bassies anymore, there are just way better heavy choices. Namely the medusa, manticore, and hydra (or lemans if you wanna spam em cheap)

In regard to bassies...

Medusas...
are S10 (half strength can still somewhat hit peoples' side/rear.
Ap2 makes them a cheaper alternative to executioners or demolishers
Large Blast.
Option to make one of the tanks in the battery a true tank killer for 5 points more.
10 pts more than a bassy.
36" range is pretty dang good and never really need more if you position right (if you go irst, put middle, if not react accordingly).
36" range beats demolisher

Idk, these are the bonuses i see in just the medusa over the bassie. Manticore has pretty similar capabilities for a lil more points but come on, d3 s10 is the best of the best with a decent ap4 can really wipe out hordes and also deal with mech, two prevalent defenses used to get across the table or to just not die.

Bassies are slightly under par nowadays compared to other choices in many regards. Between the manticore and medusa, there are much much better options.

I will say that the bassie has a couple things up against the medusa in that it can fire indirect, but at a min of 36" which is truly unacceptable. Against the manticore, it has ap3 on it. The manticore can make of for this in number of blasts to cause wounds.

Bassie is decent but nowhere near staple in armies anymore.

Ailaros wrote:basilisk tactica:

1.) point
2.) smear

That pretty much sums it up. Find meq behind cover but not in it and smear them, best case scenario is they jumped out of a moving transport so the basilisk can smear the transport and squad.

The only downside to the basilisk is that it is too deadly for it's own good. Meq players who don't want to be smeared need to kill basilisks asap.

I like to screen my basi's with chimeras. lets you shoot and get a nice cover save at the same time.

Leprousy wrote:The extra point of ap, and the negation of cover is really worth 65 points?

Yes.

Ask any marine player.

Nenya97 wrote:Sadly, I can not bring myself to bring bassies anymore, there are just way better heavy choices. Namely the medusa...

Yes, the medusa's stats are a little better, thus the points increase. Being able to sit out of LOS and always deny cover to vehicles AND always hit them on side armor that you shoot at when they're over 36" away is priceless. The only time the medusa is better is when you're shooting at targets with the same side armor, or when you're dealing with targets which have artificial cover (like SMF and smoke).

Oh, and terminators, which no guard player should have trouble with.

I agree that the basilisk is no longer the staple it once was, in part due to the fact that we actually have an alternative now. It's still pretty good, though, and it's still a very efficient killer.

Hm, I dont like bassies too much. Their specific targets are just...hm...not there.

1. When do you see MEQ out in the open and in the backfield? Yes, never.
2. if you shoot without LOS, are your chances good to hit a vehicle? Ehm, nope...
3. Do you need to shoot anything behind 36" except for turn 1-2? Normally not.

And the most decisive point is: There is a vehicle called Manticore. It does the vehicle job better, it has up to 3 shots per phase and simply does more damage against everything but MEQ out of cover and out of 36" which simply does not happen.

Concerning punisher:

I have to agree on a single punisher being not too useful. But I disagree on a punishersquadron of 2 with HB-support being useless.
Their biggest point is their reliability. They dont do much damage, but they will reliably take out a combat squad in one go regardless of cover, going to ground etc etc.
You have to point 10 BS4 Plasmaguns onto them at short range to accomplish that, or you have to lay 6 flamer templates over them.
And when the opponent starts to space, your executioner will not perform very good when you start getting just 1 model under the small blast.
And any other 1 shot large blast squadron has to hit both and wound all of them to do this.
So actually the punisher squadron does this very well.

You can frequently see meq somewhere in the battlefield, and they are often using interviening models and/or terrain as their only source of cover.

The 36" is ocer half of the table if the unit is deployed in a corner.

The only time I have seen a punisher performing well was with pask against mc and vehicles. Pask can turn one into a good rhino/mc hunter.

You can frequently see meq somewhere in the battlefield, and they are often using interviening models and/or terrain as their only source of cover.

Maybe you have a different metagame

but I would disagree on both.

Here, MEQ is either in transports or in area terrain, to make it simple.

The 36" is ocer half of the table if the unit is deployed in a corner.

yes, but in the enemies backfield you will see defensive combat squads or dev squads in area terrain. Or long fangs in area terrain.
MEQ only deploys in the open if they dont have to be in cover (because either the player is careless, or the opponent has no ap3 or less), because there always should be enough terrain on the table to find some area terrain to place those few Marines in.

@punisher

yes 1 punisher is not enough. 2 punishers are required. And pask is kinda wasted in my opinion. ap- reduces the ability to hunt rhinos properly to a tiny bit, and the exterminator would be more valid.

and of course punishers have drawbacks, you cannot use them against vehicles and the squadron is expensive. But in my 4 games with them they did well in 3 games. (The one they did not well against was a deathguard CSM army where they had just FNP around)

Ailaros wrote:Yes, the medusa's stats are a little better, thus the points increase. Being able to sit out of LOS and always deny cover to vehicles AND always hit them on side armor that you shoot at when they're over 36" away is priceless. The only time the medusa is better is when you're shooting at targets with the same side armor, or when you're dealing with targets which have artificial cover (like SMF and smoke).

You forgot to add "when they are NOT over 36" away" to your list, which is actually pretty damn often.

-Nazdreg- wrote:There is a vehicle called Manticore. It does the vehicle job better, it has up to 3 shots per phase and simply does more damage against everything but MEQ out of cover and out of 36" which simply does not happen.

Oh, yes, the manticore is a great weapon. Of course, it SHOULD be, given that it costs 25% more than a basilisk.

As mentioned, the basilisk is an EFFICIENT killer, thus making it still worth taking.

Terminus wrote:You forgot to add "when they are NOT over 36" away" to your list, which is actually pretty damn often.

True, but, as mentioned, the 36" blind spot doesn't cover even half the board when you tuck it away in a corner, and there are plenty of vehicles out there that like to sit in the backfield and shoot - not just from the guard codex. I mean, when was the last time you saw a rifleman dread charging down the field or a hammer head get in nice and close?

Very few people have the insane wherewithall to go completely without static support units. There's usually going to be SOMETHING of value worth shooting at until the vehicle is destroyed.

Plus, on most capture and control and seize ground games, there are invariably going to be objectives over 36" away from the basilisk.

If you stick a vehicle in the corner, you are either having to dedicate models to keeping it safe, or having it roflestomped by any outflanking elements the opponent may have. If you dedicate models to safeguard it, you again face the issue of the opponent moving towards you and thus under your guns.

I personally field them not so much out of any incredible usefulness (there are better ways to use heavy support slots), but rather because they have the most massive barrels and look totally badass.

Ailaros wrote:
Punisher tactica:

1.) leave your punishers on the shelf until the next guard codex.
2.) SERIOUSLY! Did I just see you try to take that off the shelf?

QFT.

Thats basically all you need to know about Punishers.

L. Wrex

Well, I use a Punisher in my Armored Company, and I absolutely adore the thing. Granted, Armored Company is structured differently than the standard codex, but I'd take one even in standard Guard. Suffice to say most people over estimate how many models they can get under a blast template, and don't give enough credit to forcing wound allocation.

In Pitched Battle and Dawn of War (That's 2/3 deployments) half of the IG's deployment zone will be over 36" from a Basilisk placed in a corner, and in spearhead deployment the other side is clustered making spearhead deployment great for artillery in the 1st turn. In any deployment a basilisk placed in each corner means 100% of the board is covered by a single indirect basilisk round.

Also if worse comes to worse a basilisk can direct fire with no minimal range.

Now it's time to answer the question: How often are mechanized MEQ caught out in the open?

Answer:50% of the time, or 33% of the time when melta is the cause of the penetrating hit.
Evidence=vehicle penetration chart
Wrecked=squad deployed out in the open
Explodes=squad deployed in cover

If a vehicles is wrecked instead of exploding all MEQ inside are forced out the access hatch and end up clustered behind the vehicle which won't provide cover against indirect fire. The single access hatch turns Razorbacks into death traps in the presence of a Basilisk because if it's wrecked all 6 MEQ are forced to deploy within 2" of that single access hatch.

GalacticDefender wrote:Why wouldn't the punisher be good against ork boyz? Doesn't it have something like 20 shots?

Punisher Cannon and three HB's, immobile at 24 inches:

20*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6)=5.555...
9*(1/2)*(2/3)=3

That's, in one of the best possible situations, about 50 points worth of models. That's as many as five tens. And that's terrible.

Actually, what shoudl really put you off is when you compare the punisher's damage output to it's points in lasguns (hint: the lasguns usually win).

The point of heavy support is to lay down the damage strong and thick. The punisher does as much damage, or less, as its cost in troops choices... except it doesn't also score...

MekanobSamael wrote:
That's, in one of the best possible situations, about 50 points worth of models. That's as many as five tens. And that's terrible.

I think I love you for that reference.

From my point of view, Basilisks are worth their points alone for fear factor. Though many armies nowadays are indeed meched up, you will face armies that rely on foot based units to do long ranged damage... Space Wolves Missile Spam, Guard Blobs, that sort of thing. If nothing else, you force your opponent into cover, which can cause LOS issues or bunch up their forces. Then they HAVE to dedicate units to killing the Bassie, which means the other 80% f your army is freer to do what they need to do. I know as a Marine player who uses Assault Squads and Drop Pods (not exactly a rare build...) that exposed marines do NOT like Basilisks shooting them.

While 40 Lasguns are superior to the Punisher Gattling Cannon at 12", getting 40 models all within 12" of a squad is unreasonable. While using FRFSRF! gets the same effect, you still have the same problem: getting 40 models in range is difficult, especially if you aren't clumping to avoid templates. The Punisher is 40 Lasguns in a bottle: all the firepower, none of the footprint.

The Punisher's main gun nabs 6 Orks a shooting phase right? How much can equivalent weapons get? If you can get an astounding 6 models under a single large blast template, you're still only getting 5 kills with Battlecannons, Demolisher cannons, Earthshakers, etc..

Pvt. Jet wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:
That's, in one of the best possible situations, about 50 points worth of models. That's as many as five tens. And that's terrible.

I think I love you for that reference.

From my point of view, Basilisks are worth their points alone for fear factor. Though many armies nowadays are indeed meched up, you will face armies that rely on foot based units to do long ranged damage... Space Wolves Missile Spam, Guard Blobs, that sort of thing. If nothing else, you force your opponent into cover, which can cause LOS issues or bunch up their forces. Then they HAVE to dedicate units to killing the Bassie, which means the other 80% f your army is freer to do what they need to do. I know as a Marine player who uses Assault Squads and Drop Pods (not exactly a rare build...) that exposed marines do NOT like Basilisks shooting them.

Yea they are good for pod, jump, and mech meq.

Drop pod marines take dangerous terrain tests if they deep strike into area terrain. If they rely on the pod for cover the bassie can indirect onto the pod and nail the marines.

Jump packs take dangerous terrain tests if they are in area cover so they are good targets.

Mechanized meq are out in the open and clustered when their vehicles are wrecked.

The Punisher's main gun nabs 6 Orks a shooting phase right? How much can equivalent weapons get? If you can get an astounding 6 models under a single large blast template, you're still only getting 5 kills with Battlecannons, Demolisher cannons, Earthshakers, etc..

Yes, but the main difference is RANGE. A punisher that can shoot at a target bettter kill it, because it has only 1-2 more turns of life left because now it's in range to be shot at/assaulted.

If you're trying to compare it to a Bassie, there's no comparison. The Bassie can hit anything on the field period. The Punisher has to move into position, and with Lumbering Behemoth rule, it could take a while until it get's into range to do something.

Plus, with really fast army lists you could have units just run circles around a punisher (it's like playing tag as a kid, the fat ones were always fun to mess with

DarkHound wrote:While 40 Lasguns are superior to the Punisher Gattling Cannon at 12", getting 40 models all within 12" of a squad is unreasonable. While using FRFSRF! gets the same effect, you still have the same problem: getting 40 models in range is difficult, especially if you aren't clumping to avoid templates. The Punisher is 40 Lasguns in a bottle: all the firepower, none of the footprint.

This is misleading. It takes 40 lasgun Shots to equal a Punisher. At 12", you only need 20 models to get that. With FRFSRF!, 20 Models equal the punisher at 24". At 12", with FRFSRF!, 13 guardsmen have the punisher beat.
Also, against a lascannon, those 40 guardsmen are suddenly quite survivable, going by that logic. It's pointless to point out that a unit is very good against weapons a decent opponent won't be aiming at it anyway.

Bassies are not better than their equivalents.

Manticores...
- 35 pts more
- -1ap
+ 1/3 the minimum range
+ +1 Strength
+ closed top (part of points cost)
+ d3 shots is always better than one
+ barrage with multiple shots can be more than just devastating.
+ Does not have to worry about relying on their being terrain on the absolute corners of the table with a lower range
to name a few...

Medusa...
- no indirect fire
-+ 10 points more (not really a downside but was mentioned earlier and should be noted on how minuscule of a argument it is)
-+ max range of 36"
+ S10
+ ap2
+ 5 pt option to turn one in a unit to absolutely just destroy any tank in the game (48" 2d6 armor pen ap1, nuff said)

Bassies over Manticore...
- open topped
- 36" minimum on indirect (you do not have to fire indirect but indirect is considered a bonus)
- S9
+ 35 pts less
+ ap3

Bassies over Medusa...
- ap 3
- 36" minimum range
- S9
+ indirect fire


This is what I saw, I may have missed something, as always, but these were pretty obvious to me.

I see the manticore being the ideal obvious choice if you have points, and after enclosed crew compartment upgrade, its only a 10 pt difference. Not too shabby.

Medusas are not quite the best choice in this field but they do more jobs than the bassie. They can kill Sv2+ reliably and also take on tanks at the same time. you may not get indirect hits on things but usually there is no difference, or a 1 pt difference between front and side (only exceptions i can think of is preds are 13/11 iirc)

In other regards, punisher is obvious disadvantage. heavy slots are for cheapy units. including the lrbt for low base cost en mass with high armor... so good.

Irdiumstern wrote:

DarkHound wrote:While 40 Lasguns are superior to the Punisher Gattling Cannon at 12", getting 40 models all within 12" of a squad is unreasonable. While using FRFSRF! gets the same effect, you still have the same problem: getting 40 models in range is difficult, especially if you aren't clumping to avoid templates. The Punisher is 40 Lasguns in a bottle: all the firepower, none of the footprint.

This is misleading. It takes 40 lasgun Shots to equal a Punisher. At 12", you only need 20 models to get that. With FRFSRF!, 20 Models equal the punisher at 24". At 12", with FRFSRF!, 13 guardsmen have the punisher beat.
Also, against a lascannon, those 40 guardsmen are suddenly quite survivable, going by that logic. It's pointless to point out that a unit is very good against weapons a decent opponent won't be aiming at it anyway.

While you can equal the amount of shots with lasguns, the Punisher is Str 5 while the lasguns are str 3, meaning you'd need more to equal in wounds.

I used to use the punisher vs eldar, As my opponent was always sure to have maximum seperation with units w/o transports. I found that massed #s dropped his jetseer/lock squad better than most thing i could do at the time.

I'm really confused as to why people keep talking about keeping the punisher still and loading it up with weapons. Of course the tank stinks when it costs 200 points and does nothing. I mean, c'mon, 20 shots and 24" and 9 at 36", with BS 3? BS 4 if you're willing to pay the extra 50 points for Pask...for a whopping total of 250 points.

That sounds crazy.

I've run a punisher off and on for a while, and truth be told, the best way I've found to run it as cheap as possible. I stick a heavy flamer on the front and don't give it any upgrades. Also, it's got rear armor 11 and I have very few issues moving it around up to the enemy. It gets off 20 shots on a squad, plus the heavy flamer. While it doesn't win me any games, it has a fairly solid record killing/running enough models off the table to pay for itself.

That being said, it's a niche tank and does exactly 2 things exceeedingly well:
1) Killing off small squads or the survivors of squads that have already taken fire. This one should be obvious, as the high volume of high strength shots usually yields 6 or 7 wounds on a squad. Yes, they'll get saves, but if there's only 3 or 4 models left in the squad it's worth the shooting.
2) Being a massive target. It's a high armor, high points, high shots tank, making it a high priority target. People do not want it to be on the table. Most people will spend effort on a Punisher that they really should be using on your other, more devestating firepower. And if they ignore it, revert to #1 or harrass units to death with it.

If you're using it for anything else in a list, you're better off leaving it at home.

darkdm wrote:I'm really confused as to why people keep talking about keeping the punisher still and loading it up with weapons. Of course the tank stinks when it costs 200 points and does nothing. I mean, c'mon, 20 shots and 24" and 9 at 36", with BS 3? BS 4 if you're willing to pay the extra 50 points for Pask...for a whopping total of 250 points.

That sounds crazy.

Well, c'mon, it's quite obvious: Why take a relatively useless tank for 'points', when you could take a relatively useless tank for 'POINTS!!!'.

Here's the litmus test: Punisher with Pask and HB sponsons is the cost of 6 Ogryn. The Ogryn still have a few less shots overall and worse BS, but I'd rather have them every time, and I don't even like Ogryn. That should say something. For 225 points you can have 3 HWS with 3 HB, which will outperform at 27 HB shots, especially with the benefits of orders. That'd be the way to go. Wait, they can't move and shoot, you say? Well, you're not planning on moving that tank anyway, so what's the difference?

On the other hand, Basilisks are pure win. If they're not killing stuff, it's because you placed it poorly or your opponent diverted large amounts of resources toward killing them.

darkdm wrote:I'm really confused as to why people keep talking about keeping the punisher still and loading it up with weapons. Of course the tank stinks when it costs 200 points and does nothing. I mean, c'mon, 20 shots and 24" and 9 at 36", with BS 3? BS 4 if you're willing to pay the extra 50 points for Pask...for a whopping total of 250 points.

That sounds crazy.

I've run a punisher off and on for a while, and truth be told, the best way I've found to run it as cheap as possible. I stick a heavy flamer on the front and don't give it any upgrades. Also, it's got rear armor 11 and I have very few issues moving it around up to the enemy. It gets off 20 shots on a squad, plus the heavy flamer. While it doesn't win me any games, it has a fairly solid record killing/running enough models off the table to pay for itself.

Good for you, I like to take HS options that actually win me games, like my Plascutioner or Plasmolisher or a Manticore...

If you are running a Punisher close enough to an enemy infantry squad to use the HF, then why not use a cheaper, faster and alot more effective Bane Wolf?

darkdm wrote:
That being said, it's a niche tank and does exactly 2 things exceeedingly well:
1) Killing off small squads or the survivors of squads that have already taken fire. This one should be obvious, as the high volume of high strength shots usually yields 6 or 7 wounds on a squad. Yes, they'll get saves, but if there's only 3 or 4 models left in the squad it's worth the shooting.

You can use a FRFSRF platoon for the same effect for a third of the cost. You can use the ML on your Chimeras for the same effect. You can use practically anything in the Codex to do this job, paying 180 points for a tank to do this is a huge waste of points!

darkdm wrote:
2) Being a massive target. It's a high armor, high points, high shots tank, making it a high priority target. People do not want it to be on the table. Most people will spend effort on a Punisher that they really should be using on your other, more devestating firepower. And if they ignore it, revert to #1 or harrass units to death with it.

If you're using it for anything else in a list, you're better off leaving it at home.

Then your opponents don't know how to play. A Plasmolisher or Plascutioner is a high priority target, a Vendetta is a high priority target, a Punisher is a paper weight that can be safelly ignored for most of the game untill you can spare something to put it out of its misery.

Luke_Prowler wrote:
This is misleading. It takes 40 lasgun Shots to equal a Punisher. At 12", you only need 20 models to get that. With FRFSRF!, 20 Models equal the punisher at 24". At 12", with FRFSRF!, 13 guardsmen have the punisher beat.
Also, against a lascannon, those 40 guardsmen are suddenly quite survivable, going by that logic. It's pointless to point out that a unit is very good against weapons a decent opponent won't be aiming at it anyway.

While you can equal the amount of shots with lasguns, the Punisher is Str 5 while the lasguns are str 3, meaning you'd need more to equal in wounds.

daedalus wrote:Well, c'mon, it's quite obvious: Why take a relatively useless tank for 'points', when you could take a relatively useless tank for 'POINTS!!!'.

lol

Nenya97 wrote:you may not get indirect hits on things but usually there is no difference

IF is a huge difference.

IF almost always ignores cover on vehicles unless they've brought their own (SMF, for example), and it always hits side armor, which on most vehicles is worse.

I mean, let's say that you're up against another guard player, and he's hiding a manticore behind a chimera and blowing stuff up. As both the medusa and the basilisk have the same accuracy, let's just assume that they both hit in the shot that they take.

Medusa gets .16 glance and .666 pens for .16 wrecked results.

Basilisk gets .16 glance and .84 pens for .42 wrecks. The basilisk is 160% better, at 20% cheaper, and can be immune to return fire. Yes, this is a choice situation for the basilisk compared to the medusa, but still, it shows how one shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the benefits of indirect fire against targets at range.

I'm going to start this out by saying this again:

darkdm wrote:
I've run a punisher off and on for a while...

So firstly, no, I don't use it all the time. Secondly, I believe the OP was asking for advice on how to use it effectivly, so that's what I'm offering up. "Leave at home" is awesome list building advice, but not on how to use the unit effectivly.

And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

daedalus wrote:
Well, c'mon, it's quite obvious: Why take a relatively useless tank for 'points', when you could take a relatively useless tank for 'POINTS!!!'.

I was saying it was silly to take the tank at 250 points rather than keep it at 180 if you're going to take it, not to take it at 250. If I'm not picking up on sarcasm here, sorry.

PhantomViper wrote:
Good for you, I like to take HS options that actually win me games, like my Plascutioner or Plasmolisher or a Manticore...

If you are running a Punisher close enough to an enemy infantry squad to use the HF, then why not use a cheaper, faster and alot more effective Bane Wolf?

And I do run HS options that win games. When I run a Punisher it's not the only HS I run...

The difference between the Punisher (as well as the other Demolisher Chassis Tanks) and Banewolf is it's AV 14/13/11 against 12/12/10. Also, I get to shoot with both guns on the Punisher instead of just one (unless I moved my banewolf only 6"...which I'd do why?). The Punisher can dish out more wounds (my local meta isn't nearly as marine populated as the rest of the world's it seems) and is hands down more survivable. Yes, you're paying for nearly the same role at a premium, but I see it as well worth the cost.

PhantomViper wrote:
You can use a FRFSRF platoon for the same effect for a third of the cost. You can use the ML on your Chimeras for the same effect. You can use practically anything in the Codex to do this job, paying 180 points for a tank to do this is a huge waste of points!

Don't know where you're getting a whole platoon for 60 points, but let my know where so I can get in on that!

And the big difference here is S 5 vs S3. You'll get more wounds in with a Punisher's shots than a sqads at 24". And with a heavy flamer on the front, it's probably still got more wounds on a squad with FRFSRF at 12". You don't have MLs if you're running infantry horde, but I'd also argue it's not same localized fire power a Punisher offers. You'd have to have 7 Chimeras with range and line of sight of one target to get as many shots as a Punisher.

PhantomViper wrote:
Then your opponents don't know how to play. A Plasmolisher or Plascutioner is a high priority target, a Vendetta is a high priority target, a Punisher is a paper weight that can be safelly ignored for most of the game untill you can spare something to put it out of its misery.

I assure you, my opponents know how to play. A LR Punisher is high points tank. In a tournament setting, it's a big block of points most of the time. And again, if they're shooting at it why aren't they shooting something else in my army? Ignore it, and it will harrass the pants off of you.

darkdm wrote:And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

I don't have to.

I don't feel obliged to spend time, money, and effort to collect a couple of subjective data sets when I have an objective one already at my disposal. Punishers are bad. The only way they're not is when you're really lucky with them. Testing them on the field adds nothing to this fact.

Nenya97 wrote:Bassies are not better than their equivalents.

Manticores...
- 35 pts more
- -1ap
+ 1/3 the minimum range
+ +1 Strength
+ closed top (part of points cost)
+ d3 shots is always better than one
+ barrage with multiple shots can be more than just devastating.
+ Does not have to worry about relying on their being terrain on the absolute corners of the table with a lower range
to name a few...

Medusa...
- no indirect fire
-+ 10 points more (not really a downside but was mentioned earlier and should be noted on how minuscule of a argument it is)
-+ max range of 36"
+ S10
+ ap2
+ 5 pt option to turn one in a unit to absolutely just destroy any tank in the game (48" 2d6 armor pen ap1, nuff said)

Bassies over Manticore...
- open topped
- 36" minimum on indirect (you do not have to fire indirect but indirect is considered a bonus)
- S9
+ 35 pts less
+ ap3

Bassies over Medusa...
- ap 3
- 36" minimum range
- S9
+ indirect fire


This is what I saw, I may have missed something, as always, but these were pretty obvious to me.

I see the manticore being the ideal obvious choice if you have points, and after enclosed crew compartment upgrade, its only a 10 pt difference. Not too shabby.

Medusas are not quite the best choice in this field but they do more jobs than the bassie. They can kill Sv2+ reliably and also take on tanks at the same time. you may not get indirect hits on things but usually there is no difference, or a 1 pt difference between front and side (only exceptions i can think of is preds are 13/11 iirc)

In other regards, punisher is obvious disadvantage. heavy slots are for cheapy units. including the lrbt for low base cost en mass with high armor... so good.

There are 5 very common scenarios that I see in almost every single game with mechanized MEQ that would result in a corner placed basilisk getting a no cover shot off against MEQ.

1) Rhino/Razorback moves 12", passengers jump out into the open and fire.

2) Transport is wrecked, and crew is forced out the access hatches into the open.

3) Transport explodes. Are the passengers going to hide inside the wreck for the rest of the game? If not their next 6" move will almost always move them into open ground.

4) Marine unit moves into open ground with a vehicle screening them for cover.

5) Drop podding squads land in the open and use the pod for cover.

In every single scenario an indirect shot with a basilisk is the ideal weapon to use against them.

1) Rhino/Razorback moves 12", passengers jump out into the open and fire.

2) Transport is wrecked, and crew is forced out the access hatches into the open.

3) Transport explodes. Are the passengers going to hide inside the wreck for the rest of the game? If not their next 6" move will almost always move them into open ground.

4) Marine unit moves into open ground with a vehicle screening them for cover.

5) Drop podding squads land in the open and use the pod for cover.

1. stupid opponent

2. ok he spaces them and you have fun with the bassie killing 2 models if any at all...

3. not on our tables and conga line ftw

4. again stupid opponent

5. also very uncautious (and I want to see the drop pod landing out of 36" to the bassie... oO)

And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

I did both. (But I also play conscripts and stuff just to test their limits, and concluded: conscripts indeed suck )
And my experience is: If you want a unit to wipe out weakened squads or units of any kind: 2 punishers will do it.
statistically they do more damage than 2 executioners (if the opponent know what he is doing). If he doesnt, then the executioners do more.
But you have to spare many points for it and a HS slot. Think well over, and you wont have the bad unit most people think it is.
But I fear it has to be proven. Otherwise they wont believe.

I don't have to.

This is the attitude to kill innovation (dont take this personal, but honestly it sounds a bit arrogant doesnt it?)

maybe. You play blob guard so a punisher will be useless. But any mechvet (tank company) army that does not rely on a defensive lasgun wall may have a good time with it.
And your comparison with lasguns is a bit off, because

1. lasguns have no av14
2. a punisher has can pour his shots through a small gap, lasguns cannot
3. a punisher can shoot in >12" on the move, lasguns cannot

and again, punishers work best if they are a squadron of 2. And if you want to bring so much lasguns on, then you spend very much logistic effort just to kill off a unit (and remember, lasguns fire in sequences and casualties can be taken out so the rest wont see or has no range etc etc.) that I love to pay those maybe extra points (which doesnt matter very much as basically 2 or 3 units working close together can be sufficient to chew through an army).

-Nazdreg- wrote:

1) Rhino/Razorback moves 12", passengers jump out into the open and fire.

2) Transport is wrecked, and crew is forced out the access hatches into the open.

3) Transport explodes. Are the passengers going to hide inside the wreck for the rest of the game? If not their next 6" move will almost always move them into open ground.

4) Marine unit moves into open ground with a vehicle screening them for cover.

5) Drop podding squads land in the open and use the pod for cover.

1. stupid opponent

2. ok he spaces them and you have fun with the bassie killing 2 models if any at all...

3. not on our tables and conga line ftw

4. again stupid opponent

5. also very uncautious (and I want to see the drop pod landing out of 36" to the bassie... oO)

1. Good to know the marine player has been cowed into submission. The threat range of mechanized melta 2d6 has gone down from 20" from the transport to 6" from a piece of area terrain. A timid and cautious meq player is going to end up slowing their advancement across the field resulting in a long range slugfest with ig.

2. Rhinos can get ok spacing, but its not a lot of space for 10 guys. Razorbacks are death traps, the space to deploy in is a 5" semicircle, and the size of a large pie is a 5" diameter. Rhinos get 3 5" semicircles that overlap, its impossible to get less than than 1/3 of the squad on a hit.

3. A tank shock into the crater will counter a conga line. Also if movement is 100% dictated by staying in area terrain the marine player will be severely slowed.

4. Standart operating procedure for meq against opponents that can not indirect fire, especially if a squad gets blown out of a transport with another friendly transport nearby.

5. Deepstriking into area terrain means the pod and squad take dangerous terrain tests. As previously stated bassies work best in pairs one in each corner. Result is that there is no blind spot for indirect fire.

In regards to Bassies...

To pull off the "well placed corners to cover the whole board" does not make sense spending 2 HS slots on Bassies... way too mono-dimensional and if you can spend the points on 2 bassies take 2 frickin manticores instead anyways; obvious better choice.
Don't waste 2 HS slots on making a 12/10/10 open topped vehicle MAYBE effective depending on the field that is set up. Not every game is going to have giant walls behind. In fact, most wont.

Another thing, schadenfreude, in regards to rhinos/razorbacks, the tip of my base has to be within 2" of the tank which is a lot bigger than a 5" diameter. Second of all, why the hell would you walk behind a razorback and not just frickin sit in it????

If a marine player has dedicated something into the open, they have dedicated it to kill something.

If you are facing drop pods, SM will laugh at your table corner bassies and send a drop pod to each of them and kill them, not throw them in the open.



I'm sorry but bassies suck, they may have unlimited range but 36" serves most any situation handly.

Indirect fire with a 36" minimum is not acceptable as a reliable tactic. The corners tactic takes 2 HS slots, purely situational on the table, and incredibly easily taken down by outflankers, skimmers, jump packers, any kind of unit that can get inside that 36" bubble just blows your strategy out the window and you are the situation that for 10 points more, you could have a S10 ap2 gun that is shooting at these things (medusa) or a frickin manticore which can shoot them until they get into assault range which they are most likely so close that they dont get cover (but armor if meq or better).


Bassies suck. Comparatively.

They have their scenarios where they excel but they are avoided easily except by other gunlines. Which other gunlines are going to have options to quickly destroy that bassie anyways so you might as well go with a more direct option like manticores or medusas.



Indirect Fire with such a high minimum range is easily avoidable.

-Nazdreg- wrote:
and again, punishers work best if they are a squadron of 2. .

daedalus wrote:Well, c'mon, it's quite obvious: Why take a relatively useless tank for 'points', when you could take a relatively useless tank for 'POINTS!!!'..

'Nuff said.

The tip of the base has to be within 2" of the acess hatch, not the vehicle.

Q:Why would meq be behind a transport and not in it?
A:because their own transport was blown to hell on turn 1 and the transport they are hiding behind already has a squad in it.

What do you expect meq to do if they lose their ride on turn 1?

IG love to spread out and do corner deployments. Hydra and manticore also do well there. Chimera can provide some cover, end extreme range from enemy hs protects them from some enemy heavy weapons. If its a pod army cannon fodder can distrup deep strike locations enough that the melta will be out of double dice pen range.

If an ig player can't stop pods from wrecking corner deployed units they have less of a chance of defending center deployed manticores. Defending a corner deployed bassie is the same as defending a corner deployed manticore. An IG player worth their salt can protect corner units from pods, its outflankers that are the problem.

The great marine killer of corner deployed big guns is the humble scout with a krak grenade, which are not very popular choices. Far too many armies fail to include outflanking units.

darkdm wrote:I'm going to start this out by saying this again:

darkdm wrote:
I've run a punisher off and on for a while...

So firstly, no, I don't use it all the time. Secondly, I believe the OP was asking for advice on how to use it effectivly, so that's what I'm offering up. "Leave at home" is awesome list building advice, but not on how to use the unit effectivly.

And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

daedalus wrote:
Well, c'mon, it's quite obvious: Why take a relatively useless tank for 'points', when you could take a relatively useless tank for 'POINTS!!!'.

I was saying it was silly to take the tank at 250 points rather than keep it at 180 if you're going to take it, not to take it at 250. If I'm not picking up on sarcasm here, sorry.

PhantomViper wrote:
Good for you, I like to take HS options that actually win me games, like my Plascutioner or Plasmolisher or a Manticore...

If you are running a Punisher close enough to an enemy infantry squad to use the HF, then why not use a cheaper, faster and alot more effective Bane Wolf?

And I do run HS options that win games. When I run a Punisher it's not the only HS I run...

The difference between the Punisher (as well as the other Demolisher Chassis Tanks) and Banewolf is it's AV 14/13/11 against 12/12/10. Also, I get to shoot with both guns on the Punisher instead of just one (unless I moved my banewolf only 6"...which I'd do why?). The Punisher can dish out more wounds (my local meta isn't nearly as marine populated as the rest of the world's it seems) and is hands down more survivable. Yes, you're paying for nearly the same role at a premium, but I see it as well worth the cost.

PhantomViper wrote:
You can use a FRFSRF platoon for the same effect for a third of the cost. You can use the ML on your Chimeras for the same effect. You can use practically anything in the Codex to do this job, paying 180 points for a tank to do this is a huge waste of points!

Don't know where you're getting a whole platoon for 60 points, but let my know where so I can get in on that!

And the big difference here is S 5 vs S3. You'll get more wounds in with a Punisher's shots than a sqads at 24". And with a heavy flamer on the front, it's probably still got more wounds on a squad with FRFSRF at 12". You don't have MLs if you're running infantry horde, but I'd also argue it's not same localized fire power a Punisher offers. You'd have to have 7 Chimeras with range and line of sight of one target to get as many shots as a Punisher.

PhantomViper wrote:
Then your opponents don't know how to play. A Plasmolisher or Plascutioner is a high priority target, a Vendetta is a high priority target, a Punisher is a paper weight that can be safelly ignored for most of the game untill you can spare something to put it out of its misery.

I assure you, my opponents know how to play. A LR Punisher is high points tank. In a tournament setting, it's a big block of points most of the time. And again, if they're shooting at it why aren't they shooting something else in my army? Ignore it, and it will harrass the pants off of you.

I have used the Punisher quite a bit, at it's peak it will lay down MC's and Low model squads in a hurry, at it's worst it will harmlessly patter bullets off of an enemy vehicle or unit in cover. I would say the Punisher is like betting on green at Roulette, sure you rarely do amazing things with it, but once and a while it goes gangbusters and lays down a flyrant, two tyrant gurds and a Trygon prime (which mine did, in KP no less)

By that logic, the deathstrike is the greatest thing in the IG codex.

I do not get it with the bassie.

Indirect Fire is cool but imo (which is what this seems to come down to; differing opinion) losing S and ap is not worth a limited amount of indirect fire usage which seems to be the ONLY upgrade the bassie gives you over medusa if you dont have points for manticore.

I'm going to stick up for punishers as I think they are awesome and are in great synergy with how I run my army. They must be taken in a squadron of 2 with no sponsors and heavy bolters as their secondary weapon. Both myself and my friend (who is the current five nations champion) run punishers in our lists and have constantly found them to be fantastic. They pump out so many shots that they demolish units: jet council - gone ork boys - gone, terminators - gone, nob bikers - gone I think you get the idea. They must sit in the middle of the board near to a blob squad to be truly effective, and when they are parked near an objective anything trying to get near it dies.


Of course they have their weaknesses str 5 is nothing to write home about nor is bs3 however 46 shots is at st 5 is a lot, yes you are rolling 4's to hit but generally you are rolling 3's to wound. They are not there to blow up armour that is what hydras and melta vets etc are for but if you look at how much they can kill compared to other Leman Russ tanks they are very very good. Everyman and his dog has a cover save so there is no need to worry about high strength because most of the time infantry will be getting a 4++ save come what may. Everyone gets very focused on vehicles but vehicles don't win games, infantry do so kill the infantry, you use the rest of your army to pop vehicles and a combination of blob squads, PBS and punishers to annihilate their infantry.

This is just my opinion and I know other will disagree but they have never let me down.

darkdm wrote:And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

Not that it was necessary, but I have actually played a game with a Punisher. Against Nids. Probably the most optimal use of a Punisher there is. I was still wishing it was a Hellhound or anything else by the end of the game. Don't get me wrong, it's not that it doesn't cause damage, it's just that it doesn't cause the level of damage I'd like in a tank. Maybe if it's main gun was 36" range or something like that I could see a case for it. The biggest problem is that it's designed to fill a gap in my army that I never needed filled. I don't need anti-infantry shots because I have heavy bolters, multilasers, and heavy flamers everywhere. Maybe if I went back to my gun line days, but then I'd still probably have plenty of HWS with bolters.

Terminus wrote:By that logic, the deathstrike is the greatest thing in the IG codex.

That's not what I am saying at all. I am saying that the peaks and valleys of a Punisher's performance are much more pronounced than say, a Leman Russ Battle Tank.

darkdm wrote:I'm going to start this out by saying this again:
And I do run HS options that win games. When I run a Punisher it's not the only HS I run...

The difference between the Punisher (as well as the other Demolisher Chassis Tanks) and Banewolf is it's AV 14/13/11 against 12/12/10. Also, I get to shoot with both guns on the Punisher instead of just one (unless I moved my banewolf only 6"...which I'd do why?). The Punisher can dish out more wounds (my local meta isn't nearly as marine populated as the rest of the world's it seems) and is hands down more survivable. Yes, you're paying for nearly the same role at a premium, but I see it as well worth the cost.

The Bane Wolf can move 12" and still fire both its weapons.

darkdm wrote:
Don't know where you're getting a whole platoon for 60 points, but let my know where so I can get in on that!

And the big difference here is S 5 vs S3. You'll get more wounds in with a Punisher's shots than a sqads at 24". And with a heavy flamer on the front, it's probably still got more wounds on a squad with FRFSRF at 12". You don't have MLs if you're running infantry horde, but I'd also argue it's not same localized fire power a Punisher offers. You'd have to have 7 Chimeras with range and line of sight of one target to get as many shots as a Punisher.

Sorry, I mean't either a squad or half the points... My point was in any case that if you just wan't to kill 2-3 models that are left from a squad you don't use a 180 pts tank to do it.

darkdm wrote:
I assure you, my opponents know how to play. A LR Punisher is high points tank. In a tournament setting, it's a big block of points most of the time. And again, if they're shooting at it why aren't they shooting something else in my army? Ignore it, and it will harrass the pants off of you.

Why does it matter to your opponent the amount of points it costs? This isn't 3rd edition where games were decided by how many points you kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ed_Bodger wrote:I'm going to stick up for punishers as I think they are awesome and are in great synergy with how I run my army. They must be taken in a squadron of 2 with no sponsors and heavy bolters as their secondary weapon. Both myself and my friend (who is the current five nations champion) run punishers in our lists and have constantly found them to be fantastic. They pump out so many shots that they demolish units: jet council - gone ork boys - gone, terminators - gone, nob bikers - gone I think you get the idea. They must sit in the middle of the board near to a blob squad to be truly effective, and when they are parked near an objective anything trying to get near it dies.


Of course they have their weaknesses str 5 is nothing to write home about nor is bs3 however 46 shots is at st 5 is a lot, yes you are rolling 4's to hit but generally you are rolling 3's to wound. They are not there to blow up armour that is what hydras and melta vets etc are for but if you look at how much they can kill compared to other Leman Russ tanks they are very very good. Everyman and his dog has a cover save so there is no need to worry about high strength because most of the time infantry will be getting a 4++ save come what may. Everyone gets very focused on vehicles but vehicles don't win games, infantry do so kill the infantry, you use the rest of your army to pop vehicles and a combination of blob squads, PBS and punishers to annihilate their infantry.

This is just my opinion and I know other will disagree but they have never let me down.

I would really love to see this list from this five nations champion that relies so much on squadrons of Punishers and also some BRs where those Punishers wipe out terminators and nob bikers. (no sarcasm here, I really never heard of this tournament and would like to read a BR where that kind of stuff happened)

Nenya97 wrote:Indirect Fire is cool but imo (which is what this seems to come down to; differing opinion) losing S and ap is not worth a limited amount of indirect fire usage which seems to be the ONLY upgrade the bassie gives you over medusa if you dont have points for manticore.

You ignore cover and hit side armor. If the side armor is 2 points lower than the front, that's the same as giving you basilisk +2 S. If you're ignoring cover, you make the vehicle 100% more effective than if you don't. I don't see why this is coming across as unimpressive.

That and the thing that's being missed here is that it's not JUST about effectiveness. If effectiveness were the ONLY determiner, then the only piece of artillery worth taking would be the deathstrike. In this case, it's also about efficiency, which the basilisk is the king of in the whole guard HS section.

PhantomViper wrote:
The Bane Wolf can move 12" and still fire both its weapons.

Whoops, you're totally right there. I was thinking Hellhound for some reason.

PhantomViper wrote:
Sorry, I mean't either a squad or half the points... My point was in any case that if you just wan't to kill 2-3 models that are left from a squad you don't use a 180 pts tank to do it.

-Nazdreg- had it right here, it's easier to fire all the shots with a Punisher than it is an Infantry Squad. Also, you run into issues if of not having the many shots if you run Mech Vets.

PhantomViper wrote:
Why does it matter to your opponent the amount of points it costs? This isn't 3rd edition where games were decided by how many points you kill.

I literally just played a tournament this last weekend where we used victory points to determine who won and losts games. It was one of the 3 largest tournaments where I live, so it's not like it was some little fluke.

Ailaros wrote:

darkdm wrote:
And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

I don't have to.

I don't feel obliged to spend time, money, and effort to collect a couple of subjective data sets when I have an objective one already at my disposal. Punishers are bad. The only way they're not is when you're really lucky with them. Testing them on the field adds nothing to this fact.

-Nazdreg- wrote:

darkdm wrote:
And just out ouf curiosity, how many of you have actually played a game (let alone a handful of games) with a LR Punisher?

I did both. (But I also play conscripts and stuff just to test their limits, and concluded: conscripts indeed suck )
And my experience is: If you want a unit to wipe out weakened squads or units of any kind: 2 punishers will do it.
statistically they do more damage than 2 executioners (if the opponent know what he is doing). If he doesnt, then the executioners do more.
But you have to spare many points for it and a HS slot. Think well over, and you wont have the bad unit most people think it is.
But I fear it has to be proven. Otherwise they wont believe.

I've yet to try conscripts, but I feel as if they'll provide oodles of laughs anyways.

But here I see the two different kinds of answers I was expecting. [sterotyping] Those of us that have actually run them for more than a game or two may not take them all the time, but know that the Punisher has a place and can be used effectivly. Those that are unwilling or unable to try generally view it with utter disdain. [/stereotyping] I'd argue that every unit in every codex has a role it fufills very well on the battlefield. There are those that have a much narrower niche than others, or that aren't obviosuly apperant. The Punisher is one of those units.

Ailaros, I understand you're aversion to LR's in your army (thanks to your batreps), and why you don't like the tank makes more sense to me than anyone else who's saying it is useless (though I still feel it doesn't validate the harsh remarks made towards it). But people really ought to try it for more than a game. daedalus, you really should give it a shot in more than just one game. And no, 'Nids are not the optimum army to use it against. I'd actually argue horde Orks are.

The Basilisk is one of the best tanks in the game of 40K, I always take at least 1. That S9 AP3 shot scares the pants off of my opposition. They'll waste all kinds of suicide units to take care of it while my LRBT makes a mockery of other troops.

PhantomViper wrote:

darkdm wrote:I'm going to start this out by saying this again:
And I do run HS options that win games. When I run a Punisher it's not the only HS I run...

The difference between the Punisher (as well as the other Demolisher Chassis Tanks) and Banewolf is it's AV 14/13/11 against 12/12/10. Also, I get to shoot with both guns on the Punisher instead of just one (unless I moved my banewolf only 6"...which I'd do why?). The Punisher can dish out more wounds (my local meta isn't nearly as marine populated as the rest of the world's it seems) and is hands down more survivable. Yes, you're paying for nearly the same role at a premium, but I see it as well worth the cost.

The Bane Wolf can move 12" and still fire both its weapons.

darkdm wrote:
Don't know where you're getting a whole platoon for 60 points, but let my know where so I can get in on that!

And the big difference here is S 5 vs S3. You'll get more wounds in with a Punisher's shots than a sqads at 24". And with a heavy flamer on the front, it's probably still got more wounds on a squad with FRFSRF at 12". You don't have MLs if you're running infantry horde, but I'd also argue it's not same localized fire power a Punisher offers. You'd have to have 7 Chimeras with range and line of sight of one target to get as many shots as a Punisher.

Sorry, I mean't either a squad or half the points... My point was in any case that if you just wan't to kill 2-3 models that are left from a squad you don't use a 180 pts tank to do it.

darkdm wrote:
I assure you, my opponents know how to play. A LR Punisher is high points tank. In a tournament setting, it's a big block of points most of the time. And again, if they're shooting at it why aren't they shooting something else in my army? Ignore it, and it will harrass the pants off of you.

Why does it matter to your opponent the amount of points it costs? This isn't 3rd edition where games were decided by how many points you kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ed_Bodger wrote:I'm going to stick up for punishers as I think they are awesome and are in great synergy with how I run my army. They must be taken in a squadron of 2 with no sponsors and heavy bolters as their secondary weapon. Both myself and my friend (who is the current five nations champion) run punishers in our lists and have constantly found them to be fantastic. They pump out so many shots that they demolish units: jet council - gone ork boys - gone, terminators - gone, nob bikers - gone I think you get the idea. They must sit in the middle of the board near to a blob squad to be truly effective, and when they are parked near an objective anything trying to get near it dies.


Of course they have their weaknesses str 5 is nothing to write home about nor is bs3 however 46 shots is at st 5 is a lot, yes you are rolling 4's to hit but generally you are rolling 3's to wound. They are not there to blow up armour that is what hydras and melta vets etc are for but if you look at how much they can kill compared to other Leman Russ tanks they are very very good. Everyman and his dog has a cover save so there is no need to worry about high strength because most of the time infantry will be getting a 4++ save come what may. Everyone gets very focused on vehicles but vehicles don't win games, infantry do so kill the infantry, you use the rest of your army to pop vehicles and a combination of blob squads, PBS and punishers to annihilate their infantry.

This is just my opinion and I know other will disagree but they have never let me down.

I would really love to see this list from this five nations champion that relies so much on squadrons of Punishers and also some BRs where those Punishers wipe out terminators and nob bikers. (no sarcasm here, I really never heard of this tournament and would like to read a BR where that kind of stuff happened)

If you genuinely pm me and I'll send it to you.

darkdm wrote:
Ailaros, I understand you're aversion to LR's in your army (thanks to your batreps), and why you don't like the tank makes more sense to me than anyone else who's saying it is useless (though I still feel it doesn't validate the harsh remarks made towards it). But people really ought to try it for more than a game. daedalus, you really should give it a shot in more than just one game. And no, 'Nids are not the optimum army to use it against. I'd actually argue horde Orks are.

I agree for a couple of reasons. I'll get this out there just for fairness of my argument, no I have not played with or against a LR Punisher but I have been playing this game for long enough to know that it has potential. I think some players develop a bit of an Elitist attitude sometimes when it comes to what works and what doesn't (I myself am guilty of this sometimes). The Elitist attitude often makes people think that because their is something more effective, than it makes the underdog obsolete or useless. This is a very unfair evaluation and Extremely one dimensional.

Although one tank may have more destructive potential than another for the points, their is something extremely appealing to me about the Punisher. It's number of shots. Not because its fun to roll lots of dice (which it is), its more because this is a game of probability, and probability in much higher numbers is much, much more reliable. My Ork friend who rolls 120 dice in the assault phase as 4+ will almost always roll within 5 of the halfway mark, which is something he can basically rely on. When your shooting 1 big blast their is a decent chance you wont hit anything, or you wont hit the target you were aiming for. When it comes to shooting 30 shots you can expect some kind of results. Which leads to easier decisions in the shooting phase, and can put the right pressure on units that you want to give lots of armor saves.

Another thing to consider. Blast markers are a bit of an unknown when it comes to how many hits you're going to make. A decent opponent will always put that into consideration and diminish your blast weapons potential just by spreading his units a bit more. So if your Ordinance is working like a charm maybe your opponent just isn't as competent as you should hope. Easy wins just doesn't lead to a whole lot of learning, although it might mean you're a tactical genius, it very easily just might mean you're opponent is a tactical failure. If you think your unit choices are whats winning you the game and not your tactics, then that is proof right there that your opponent is incompetent.

Lastly, not every single unit is large in size. Often they will be no more than 5 models just because of their larger point values or because you thinned them out earlier. With a blast, you can inflict a maximum of 5 wounds on 5 guys and it A- might not have the right AP to ignore their saves, or B- they might have decent invulnerable or cover saves to apply. When it comes to units small in size, persistence is the best way to deal with them and to be honest larger blasts are just not the persistence you necessarily need. Especially if killing this enemy unit will save you from it killing yours.

I'm sure I wont convince all of your that the Punisher has its place on the field. But I think 40k tactics are generally tainted by conformity and I always encourage gamers to try new tactics and new units.

-cheers.


-edit________________________________________________________________

lol.. Writing this post makes me want to buy a LR Punisher.

Having only really played with a Punisher for a grand total of 3 games, I can tell you that in 2 out of those three it proved such annoying unit that my opponent had to focus on it. And I ran 2 of them each game.

I am not saying that it wins games, but as a few people have said it is not as "bad" as everyone else thinks it too be.

-Removed two combat squads in cover by forcing them to take 7-8 wounds.
-Two Punishers whittled down a crusader squad of 15 to just the character and 3 marines. That makes plasmaguns and melta guns more likely to kill the ones I need dead.
-Two Punishers dropped a Hive tyrant + 2 guard with FNP in one turn.

Yes I have had them completely wiff and do nothing. But running two of them has proved to be enough to make them valuable. And no matter how hesitant you are about performance, they do perform. Not only by killing models and forcing LD checks, but also by being a fire magnet. Who in their right mind is going to leave up two tanks that together can put out 46 shots a turn? Even if you are running a Mech army, 46 shots at a Rhino WILL cause some glances, and you only need 3 immobilized or weapon destroyed results to wreck it.



*edit spelling

@Bassie

1. Good to know the marine player has been cowed into submission. The threat range of mechanized melta 2d6 has gone down from 20" from the transport to 6" from a piece of area terrain. A timid and cautious meq player is going to end up slowing their advancement across the field resulting in a long range slugfest with ig.

2. Rhinos can get ok spacing, but its not a lot of space for 10 guys. Razorbacks are death traps, the space to deploy in is a 5" semicircle, and the size of a large pie is a 5" diameter. Rhinos get 3 5" semicircles that overlap, its impossible to get less than than 1/3 of the squad on a hit.

3. A tank shock into the crater will counter a conga line. Also if movement is 100% dictated by staying in area terrain the marine player will be severely slowed.

4. Standart operating procedure for meq against opponents that can not indirect fire, especially if a squad gets blown out of a transport with another friendly transport nearby.

5. Deepstriking into area terrain means the pod and squad take dangerous terrain tests. As previously stated bassies work best in pairs one in each corner. Result is that there is no blind spot for indirect fire.

1. not really, SM can shoot back very well if they start launching their missile wall. SM are not far away from IG concerning long range firepower. Wolves are even superior. And again 3 guys in area terrain are fair enough. On our tables this is provided almost everywhere.

2. tell that to our rhino players 2"+ base diameter is quite a long distance, so you can have 1 model in contact with the door and the other models 2" spaced.

3. tank shock? so I will place my models in 1" distance to your vehicle and you wont hit me with the 5" pie plate, because you cannot do it without hitting your own vehicle, which is forbidden. And jumping from area terrain into area terrain does not slow down the army very much. At least not at our tables.

4. Yes, but as soon as indirect fire is on the board, the opponent should change the kind of advance. But troops hang around in midfield most of the time anyways.

5. Pod yes (who cares?) squad, no, they just disembark into difficult terrain. Another possibility: running into cover after having deep struck. MEQ is really easy to dig in. Even horde armies most of the time will find enough area terrain to cover their whole squads (if half of each is placed within).

@Punisher

I think I said enough. Again, try them. They wont disappoint you.

In regards to Bassies...

Indirect Fire can be devastating, I will admit to that.

What I cannot agree with is the Bassie being the best choice to fill the mold.
What the Bassie does, the Manticore can do it either better or in a different way. (Indirect at 1' or inflicting d3 blasts of wounds to get around an armor save)

Basilisks were good when they were the only option for a real strong artillery gun but the newer choices are so beyond superior that they blow bassies out the window back into remnants of the past.

I am not saying that deploying table corners with bassies is a bad idea, I am saying that it is less than ideal, taking up 2 HS slots that are the bread and butter of the army.

Any long range shooting decimates the basilisk or stops it from firing, just like any other artillery gun.
But.
Taking 2 HS slots to cover the majority of the table with one kind of weapon (may it be 2 shots) is not the best because then what can you take as your 3rd? You are almost forced to take Hydras (competitively, to keep up an autocannon defense)

I am saying that the table corner bassies is bad because
-2 HS slots
-most likely going to not be able to hide behind walls and be subject to any heavy weapon fire with the crap artillery chassis
-36" is not that hard of a gap to get into, only exception being the first turn if you get it.
-You have now filled most of your HS with an option that is easily counterable by just running forward (which, if you didn't know, is most peoples' tactic against IG)
-The bassie's true counterpart (manticore) does his job a hundred fold better.

Bassies are a thing of the past that have been dethroned by the manticore.

If you praise Indirect Fire so much, you must agree that the Manticore would be a better choice in all regards except ap (of which is made up for easily by d3 large blasts of S10)

Nenya97 wrote: -The bassie's true counterpart (manticore) does his job a hundred fold better.

If you praise Indirect Fire so much, you must agree that the Manticore would be a better choice in all regards except ap (of which is made up for easily by d3 large blasts of S10)

Is the manticore more effective against hordes and vehicles? Absolutely (it's why I used to bring 2).

Is it 100x better? No. Against vehicles, it's between 17% and 4 times better (depending wildly on how many shots the manticore gets and against which target types), while being substantially worse against space marines, all for costing 25% more.

I like manticores, don't get me wrong, but the existence of manticores has nothing to say about the basilisk. The basilisk didn't get WORSE just because the guard has more options now. It's still the tank that it was before - a cheap way to threaten vehicles and space marines.

..which is why when I took 2 manticores, my third HS slot was a bassie.

Two heavy bolter punishers are 400 points. That's three Vendettas or two manticores and a hydra.

I don't see how anyone can number crunch what is better comparing artillery pieces because honestly its more about what pieces are fielded with each artillery piece that dictate whats best.

If I am Melta heavy in my lists, I care little for Strength 10 AP weapons.

If I am light on Melta, then Strength 10 AP is huge!

I only use two artillery pieces, (Manticore and Colossus). When I have more then enough firepower to kill Tanks and Terminators you're damn right I'm bringing the Colossus. If I run light on Melta and Lasconnons etc and I need a good combo of strength, AP and template killing ability I go Manticore.

Opponents fear the Manticore, but they fear the Colossus more because two things happen, (in my games)
1. They can't hide units on an objective period
2. They absolutely have to kill the artillery which means I force the opponent to do something they may not want to do etc.

If you place your artillery well, (Manticores, Bassies, Colossus etc etc) you can either protect it or use it as bait. If someone tries to explain that its just dumb to sacrifice 140 to 160 points in a game I'll demonstrate just how rough it isn't on the Guard to do so.............................

Are all of these in the guard codex (yes, I'm starting guard and getting a tank first. No, I will not explain why, so don't even comment on that )

They are not in the reference thing in the back of the rule book (I'm not talking about earthshakers, I mean the hydra gun, the punisher, the LR plasma cannon, etc. forgive me if this is a stupid question)

But really, I can't see how the punisher would suck against something like orks. What is the strength of their shots?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of the plasma cannon, is it good?

it's not that the punisher is going to do NOTHING against orks, it's that you could do so much MORE against them by spending the points on something else.

A pair of punishers puts down about 18 ork boyz in a single round of shooting, where a manticore and a hydra could easily be seen to kill TWO WHOLE MOBZ in a single round of shooting, while also being better against a wider range of targets (like skimmers and heavy vehicles).

It's the difference between spending 400 points to seriously hurt one mob and then getting everything destroyed in a WAAAAUGH! the next turn, or making it so that there's nothing left on the field that can waaaugh you.

Almost all weapons have at least some level of effectiveness against most targets. It's how efficient, not effective, that is what determines the great choices from the good ones.

GalacticDefender wrote:Are all of these in the guard codex (yes, I'm starting guard and getting a tank first. No, I will not explain why, so don't even comment on that )

They are not in the reference thing in the back of the rule book (I'm not talking about earthshakers, I mean the hydra gun, the punisher, the LR plasma cannon, etc. forgive me if this is a stupid question)

But really, I can't see how the punisher would suck against something like orks. What is the strength of their shots?


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Speaking of the plasma cannon, is it good?

These are all in the IG codex. i'd start there before buying the tank....


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and what A-man said too!

Ailaros wrote:it's not that the punisher is going to do NOTHING against orks, it's that you could do so much MORE against them by spending the points on something else.

A pair of punishers puts down about 18 ork boyz in a single round of shooting, where a manticore and a hydra could easily be seen to kill TWO WHOLE MOBZ in a single round of shooting, while also being better against a wider range of targets (like skimmers and heavy vehicles).

It's the difference between spending 400 points to seriously hurt one mob and then getting everything destroyed in a WAAAAUGH! the next turn, or making it so that there's nothing left on the field that can waaaugh you.

Almost all weapons have at least some level of effectiveness against most targets. It's how efficient, not effective, that is what determines the great choices from the good ones.

They don't have to be in units of 2, do they?


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alarmingrick wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:Are all of these in the guard codex (yes, I'm starting guard and getting a tank first. No, I will not explain why, so don't even comment on that )

They are not in the reference thing in the back of the rule book (I'm not talking about earthshakers, I mean the hydra gun, the punisher, the LR plasma cannon, etc. forgive me if this is a stupid question)

But really, I can't see how the punisher would suck against something like orks. What is the strength of their shots?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of the plasma cannon, is it good?

These are all in the IG codex. i'd start there before buying the tank....


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and what A-man said too!

And yes I'm getting the codex before the tank. The actual reason I'm getting a tank first is that I'll get it for christmas and I can actually afford infantry with my own money.

The thing that makes the manticore above par compared to many other pieces is its versatility.

I do not see a situation where you would not want d3 s10 ap4 large blasts for 160 pts that is not open topped like most other artillery.

Even in an army where you have meltaguns, you still need a way to kill large units of infantry, and provides a very efficient way to pick up the slack if your meltas get stopped in their tracks.

In an army that does not have meltaguns (you prolly are at least running some autocannons), it can do its anti-tank duty and, if needed, move on to softening up a unit to charge into if you wanna do power blobs.

There is little that this artillery can not do that another artillery piece can, and i would like to see how much better another artillery piece can perform over this in any given situation using the same rolls.

When it comes to blast templates, it really comes down to who can do the job the best when it hits (and even when it misses, it's still either another shot most likely)

What artillery does all the jobs the manticore can do better? Its key is in versatility and it might be the best in it.

Why has everyone suggested that the punisher be in a pair? It would only be 200 pts on its own, wouldn't it?

And is the plasma cannon LR good? Or even the standard LR demolisher?

I like the Demolisher, but not the Executioner, honestly. I've just never had a good experience with small blast templates with my IG. With my CSM, my Rhinos are able to bunch the enemy models up because they are moving up the field anyway, but my Chimeras like to hang back and shoot. Sacrificing a Chimera to make the Executioner's small blast templates effective doesn't seem right to me. Think about it this way: against a prepared opponent, the Executioner is 190 points for 3 S7 AP2 shots with a 50% accuracy. Getting those amazing 4 models per template shots either requires the entire army built around it, or more luck than one deserves.

I don't know anyone who fields an Executioner without the Plasma sponsons = 5 small templates on 2+ and 3+ armor is fantastic and is the only tank I get complaints about from opponents.

GalacticDefender wrote:Why has everyone suggested that the punisher be in a pair? It would only be 200 pts on its own, wouldn't it?

And is the plasma cannon LR good? Or even the standard LR demolisher?

Most people aren't recommending the Punisher at all, since it's one of the worst variants available. Others have chimed in saying that they've gotten good mileage out of them by taking a pair. The retort to that is that you are spending a ton of points (and making the tanks far easier to kill, especially considering the 24" range of the weapon) for relatively mediocre performance.

The Executioner is quite awesome, although you should go all out and buy it plasma sponsons. Otherwise, a battle tank with plasma sponsons can work just as well or better in fact.

The Demolisher is up to the individual. I don't like it because I think the value of high AV is diminished the closer you get to your opponent. Others swear by them.

Would a lascannon be good on the front? That's one extra high power shot to use against enemy tanks.

On what?

I usually don't bother paying 15 points for a single BS4 shot.

The Executioner doesn't need it since it gets way too expensive and S7 of the templates is adequate for dealing with transports.

Demolisher is best kept nice and cheap with a hull heavy flamer.

where a manticore and a hydra could easily be seen to kill TWO WHOLE MOBZ in a single round of shooting

I want to see that...
You are the one wuth the careful 2" spacing arent you? So we have to assume about 3-4 hits ber shot, which will result in about 5 dead boyz (assuming 3 shots). No, manticores are not good against well played masses, they are however devastating firing directly on vehicles or bad played masses. But still 2 mobz is completely off...

And a pair of Hydras will down about 4 boyz each round so a good rolling manticore and 2 Hydras will do basically the same to orks that the punisher pair will do. They cost about the same, are easier to take out and can do more things (i.e. being actually dangerous to vehicles)

A pair of punishers will kill 9 Orks (we have to assume cover) or 6 Space Marines each round (if they have bolter sponsons and are stationary), which is a quite good performance. 2 executioners are worse against spaced SM and orks, but more versatile, because you could tank shock them together and also engage transports, termis and MCs to some result.

So of course, Punishers are not a top level unit (compared to Manticore or Hydra), but he is not a No Go. I estimate him above the regular LRBT actually.

IMO Basilisks are outclassed by Manticores. Sure they cost more but D3 shots per turn and Strength 10 makes them better vs vehicles and infantry. The basilisk's AP3 really isn't that important because of cover. Half the time a vehicle is destroyed it makes a nice crater for the former riders to hide in. The rest of the time they hide behind the vehicle and you have to fire in direct to negate that cover and if the marines advanced they probably inside your minimum range.

Punishers are just plain bad they should stay on your shelf indeed. Useless vs most vehicles and not very good vs infantry for their high cost. Now if punishers had a 20 shot autocannon then we would be talking.

-Nazdreg- wrote:I want to see that...

Done.

Just a single manticore taking out a single squad of boyz in one shot, but you get the idea.

Kirika wrote: Sure they cost more but D3 shots per turn and Strength 10 makes them better vs vehicles and infantry. The basilisk's AP3 really isn't that important because of cover.

20% more expensive and not particularly good against marines, who can't stay in cover the entire game, much less against IF.

The basilisk and the manticore don't have exactly the same role, just like how the basilisk and the colossus don't. Sure, over all, if I had to take just one artillery piece not knowing what I was up against, I'd make the points to take a manticore. This does not mean the basilisk is worthless in a well thought out list.

Ailaros wrote:

-Nazdreg- wrote:I want to see that...

Done.

Just a single manticore taking out a single squad of boyz in one shot, but you get the idea.

Yet the manticore did pretty much nothing the rest of the game, this was a relatively small sized squad of boys and most important of all anecdote =/= fact.

I'm not saying the Punisher is necessarily superior or the other way round, just adding some balance to an otherwise subjective statement of the manticore being superior.

That piece of anecdotal evidence may not be super convincing, but there is nothing subjective about the Manticore being superior points for points than the Punisher. It simply does more.

Just Dave wrote: anecdote =/= fact.

I am well aware of this. Nazdreg wanted it, though, so I obliged.

Of course, in the objective world of mathhammer, two manticores and a hydra is STILL way better than a pair of punishers. A single subjective example doesn't change this (regardless of which way it goes).

Manticore not really that good against marines? well, when the manticore can produce more dice to throw towards wounds, and in some cases, 3x as many, a 3+ armor save cannot keep up with the volume

Marines, in fact, can stay in cover the whole game or at least wait it out while heavy weapons suppress an open topped vehicle and once it's gone, its gone.
The bassie and colossus have their place in a tailored list against marines in the open/cover but I would think that the amount of shots possible by a manticore can really make up for the ap3, especially being able to produce enough wounds on the unit to cause wound allocation to the special weapons, causing the chance to actually do damage to the unit

Well, yeah, if every shot you're taking with the manticore rolls 3 shots and you roll a hit with all three scatter die every time, then yeah, it's a great marine killer. As that's not terribly likely to happen...

Plus, if marines are hiding in cover because they're afraid of your artillery, that means that you're in control of your opponent's movement phase. I can hardly think of something more useful for a skilled commander.

Ailaros wrote:Well, yeah, if every shot you're taking with the manticore rolls 3 shots and you roll a hit with all three scatter die every time, then yeah, it's a great marine killer. As that's not terribly likely to happen...

Plus, if marines are hiding in cover because they're afraid of your artillery, that means that you're in control of your opponent's movement phase. I can hardly think of something more useful for a skilled commander.

3 Manticore=Marine player spreads out a little bit and can ignore cover for the most part as the only weapons it will help against is lascannons and melta guns both of which have a low rate of fire. Marine player advances in the open with little to no penalty for being in the open, and thus advances fast and furious. If the lascannon/melta fire is think or there is a plasma squad on the field the MEQ squads who have had their transports shot out from under them move behind other transports that are already full of MEQ to shield them from low AP fire.

2 Mantircore + 1 Basilisk=MEQ player must choose between going into the open and risking Basilisk fire or slow their advance so they can hide in cover like a bunch of bedwetters. As a MEQ player with 2 different types of MEQ armies the worse possible thing I can do when facing IG would be to slow my advance, it gives the IG player an extra turn or 2 of shooting at long range. If I allow my opponent to dictate my movement phase the game is lost.

A Manticore and a basilisk have the same chance to hit... i am comparing the effects of how well a gun does when it hits an opponent which is obviously better than the basilisk.

Until the Manticore rolls a one for shots fired and the Basilisk obliterates the marines you were shooting at because it actually ignores their armour save...

Why does the basilisk ignore armor saves?

AP3

There is always alot of hatred for the punisher...

I love it... 20 shots (massive dakka dakka) its great!

It may have more effective counter-parts in the Guard force but for me it is by far the most enjoyable Russ to use.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:AP3

Wow I now feel like an idiot. I was thinking of special rules or something


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geordie09 wrote:There is always alot of hatred for the punisher...

I love it... 20 shots (massive dakka dakka) its great!

It may have more effective counter-parts in the Guard force but for me it is by far the most enjoyable Russ to use.

This. It just sounds fun to use. And looks cool.


My space marine army (and to a lesser extent, Tau) My only army that I take really seriously when considering competitiveness. (yes, that is IS a word. )

Done.

ok, I have seen the manticore killing a small squad, which wasnt even properly spaced or covered taken down in one shot. I havent seen him killing 2 WHOLE (30 men) mobz, which are well commanded. I know what a manticore can be capable of. Killing most of a 30 man mob with 3 shots was, what I did too (and even this is not representative, because my opponent chose to not space his models and he didnt even cover them... , but 2 mobs ist just plain impossible (unless they are in btb ) and highly exaggerated

Of course, in the objective world of mathhammer, two manticores and a hydra is STILL way better than a pair of punishers.

Given that target saturation from vendettas and chimeras is there, yes. Of course.
But merci for the HS section if they are on their own. A Russ will soak almost every long range weaponry, AV12 can be shut down quite easily.
The contrary is, that russes generally do less damage.
But if you deny the punisher, you deny the use of Russes at all (because I don't see him in such a bad state, that he underclasses the other variants (except for the executioner, MAYBE)).

Most marine armies are going to run right at you to either assault your blobs, melta your heavies, drop pod behind you, or do something that is completely within 3 feet of a basilisk.

The problem with the bassie is the 3' radius is too far to make it truly reliable. It looses its affectiveness against vehicles too quickly unless you are facing another guard army, but the ig vs. ig games are already such a cluster-mess that they really are a different topic.

Look at what a 3' radius is on the table. Measure it out and look that after you account for the length of the barrel and the tank's chassis for being on the board, you quickly see that this is a most unacceptable bubble to really call a threat.

The bassie has its niche, but it is so hard to consistently see it in a game that it loses effectiveness because it is easily avoidable without doing too much harm to an overall plan, especially against a forward moving marine army (which is a lot of them, and the gun lines will put your artillery in shaken/stun/weapon destroyed mode quickly anyways even in the case of other vehicles, especially being open-topped, which the manticore is not, making the difference, really, only about 10 points for the weapon).

Just Dave wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

-Nazdreg- wrote:I want to see that...

Done.

Just a single manticore taking out a single squad of boyz in one shot, but you get the idea.

Yet the manticore did pretty much nothing the rest of the game, this was a relatively small sized squad of boys and most important of all anecdote =/= fact.

I'm not saying the Punisher is necessarily superior or the other way round, just adding some balance to an otherwise subjective statement of the manticore being superior.

And yet again I'm put in the unfortunate situation of having to agree and support Ailaros!

Everyone knows that anecdotal evidence is very far from a proven fact, but I have yet to see any Punisher defender provide even anecdotal evidence of why the tank isn't a complete waste of points, the best case I've read in its favour was: "its fun to roll that many dice"...

Ailaros wrote:

Terminus wrote:You forgot to add "when they are NOT over 36" away" to your list, which is actually pretty damn often.

True, but, as mentioned, the 36" blind spot doesn't cover even half the board when you tuck it away in a corner

And lets not forget that basilisks have the option of firing direct in order to ignore the minimum range. (only the collosus, griffon and deathstrike may not fire direct)

I also find it interesting that people decry the 36" minimum of the basilisk as a huge problem but the 24" minimum of the manticore is a non-issue.

-Nazdreg- wrote:Given that target saturation from vendettas and chimeras is there, yes. Of course.
But merci for the HS section if they are on their own. A Russ will soak almost every long range weaponry, AV12 can be shut down quite easily.
The contrary is, that russes generally do less damage.
But if you deny the punisher, you deny the use of Russes at all (because I don't see him in such a bad state, that he underclasses the other variants (except for the executioner, MAYBE)).

Wait wait wait, clarify this please. Are you saying the punisher is superior to the executioner?!?


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Scott-S6 wrote:I also find it interesting that people decry the 36" minimum of the basilisk as a huge problem but the 24" minimum of the manticore is a non-issue.

To be fair, that 12" makes a huge difference. For example, I would love the demolisher if he had a 36" range gun, and maybe would even consider the punisher if it had the same.

I think the whole 36" problem has to do with the medusa. Once they close that gap theres no difference between medusas and bassies except one has more S and AP

PhantomViper wrote:but I have yet to see any Punisher defender provide even anecdotal evidence of why the tank isn't a complete waste of points, the best case I've read in its favour was: "its fun to roll that many dice"...

Done. Although I don't comment on it much, watch as the squads the Punisher has LoS to vanish.

The problem with 36" is when you can no longer fire indirectly, making it no different than the medusa, yes, while the manticore is still able to take out Sv4+ without a problem, and be able to hit barrage on those targets close by, with the potential to cause more wounds at the same time causing pinning with a possible higher output of damage. Also, being able to take on close range assault vehicles like baals, vindicators, or even LR being ordinance S10.

The combination of things the manticore can do is above all else any other artillery can do. On top of that, the thing looks more badass than all of them combined (maybe not the colossus, but you may as well be playing with a bombard with that kind of model lol).

DarkHound wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:but I have yet to see any Punisher defender provide even anecdotal evidence of why the tank isn't a complete waste of points, the best case I've read in its favour was: "its fun to roll that many dice"...

Done. Although I don't comment on it much, watch as the squads the Punisher has LoS to vanish.

The only thing that report shows is you rolling WAY above average to put 11 wounds out of 29 shots needing 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound and then showing of one of the biggest weaknesses of the tank when your opponent rolls average armour saves and only takes 2 casualties... Not exactly a stellar performance from a 215pts tank IMO.

With the way that those bikers where close to each other and without cover, an Executioner with sponsons could easilly get 2 and sometimes 3 bikes beneath the template, needing 2+ to wound and negating any type of save.

DarkHound wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:but I have yet to see any Punisher defender provide even anecdotal evidence of why the tank isn't a complete waste of points, the best case I've read in its favour was: "its fun to roll that many dice"...

Done. Although I don't comment on it much, watch as the squads the Punisher has LoS to vanish.

What exactly did it do? If I'm following correctly, at one point it killed 5 bikers, which would happen 2.15% of the time (did it have help?), and later it inflicted 11 wounds, which happens 0.39% ofthe time.

So this anecdotal piece of evidence proves the Punisher is awesome if you have crazy luck?

PhantomViper wrote:The only thing that report shows is you rolling WAY above average to put 11 wounds out of 29 shots needing 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound and then showing of one of the biggest weaknesses of the tank when your opponent rolls average armour saves and only takes 2 casualties... Not exactly a stellar performance from a 215pts tank IMO.

With the way that those bikers where close to each other and without cover, an Executioner with sponsons could easilly get 2 and sometimes 3 bikes beneath the template, needing 2+ to wound and negating any type of save.

As I said before, I don't give the play by play for the Punisher in the game, and only mention when it puts on those fantastic 11 wounds. If I remember correctly, the Punisher kills 3 or 4 of the purple based bikes, all the orange based ones and 4 or 5 of the black bases over the course of the game, not to mention numerous wounds on ABs. The Punisher with sponsons is only 200 points, so 10 Bikers at 25 points a model is not a bad haul.

Now, I had an Executioner in the same game. Getting 2 or 3 models under the template is cool and all, but half your shots will scatter and half again will get saved by cover. Worse if he's turbo-boosted. Say with 5 templates you get 6 hits (2 models per template, half of them scatter off and maybe 1 gets a favorable scatter). You'll lose a wound, leaving you with 5. Then half of that is gone to cover, so you get lucky and cause 3 wounds. That isn't much better a performance than the Punisher, but you don't cause enough wounds to force allocation like the Punisher. You kill slightly more with the Executioner, but the Punisher can pull more than Joes off a squad. (Unless you're shooting at something less than T5, in which case the Punisher does better.)

Terminus wrote:What exactly did it do? If I'm following correctly, at one point it killed 5 bikers, which would happen 2.15% of the time (did it have help?), and later it inflicted 11 wounds, which happens 0.39% ofthe time.

So this anecdotal piece of evidence proves the Punisher is awesome if you have crazy luck

And Ailaros' anecdotal evidence shows his Manticore having some great luck for a single turn. Like Ailaros, I don't pretend to think anecdotal evidence changes the math, but PhantomViper wanted anecdotal evidence that supported the Punisher.

Actually Ailaros was using an equally-flawed anecdote to support his assertions, but math has never been his strong-suit.

Anyway, you are woefully underestimating the Executioner. 6 hits for 5 templates, especially with that juicy cluster he presented you with? Come on...

If you're talking about that cluster on turn 2, the Executioner was out of range. If it had been in range, you'd have seen no cluster and they all would have turbo-boosted. The Punisher still would have stomped face, and the Executioner still would have floundered.

Stop loading your dice, and then we'll talk.

DarkHound wrote:If you're talking about that cluster on turn 2, the Executioner was out of range. If it had been in range, you'd have seen no cluster and they all would have turbo-boosted. The Punisher still would have stomped face, and the Executioner still would have floundered.

How can the Executioner be out of range? It has an effective range of 42", wheren't you playing on a 4' table?

And if your opponent is so "placement minded" why didn't he spread up and TB anyway? Wasn't he affraid of the Colossus?

Your report is way too vague about the performance of your various tanks and artillery pieces to take away any conclusion (and after a more detailed reading I disagree with ALOT of your placement, movement and target selection choices), especially 5 months after the actual game was played and like I've said before the only thing that you actually say the Punisher kills is 2 bikes. If the Punisher performed so admirably during the actual battle then why don't you say it in the report?

That "Battle Report" exemplifies all the reasons why I don't play in Vassal, you can't compare it with playing in a real table, you and your opponent could have played a game of Dawn of War that the comparable result to a real game of 40k would have been about the same.

PhantomViper wrote:How can the Executioner be out of range? It has an effective range of 42", wheren't you playing on a 4' table?

And if your opponent is so "placement minded" why didn't he spread up and TB anyway? Wasn't he affraid of the Colossus?

Sure there were clusters, but I didn't think the Executioner wasn't in range to hit the cluster of 4, and hitting the closer squads would be a waste. The Punisher had those covered. I suppose he was afraid of the Colossi, but if he could draw their fire for 2 turns, they wouldn't be able to kill the black based squad holding 2 objectives before the end of the game.

Your report is way too vague about the performance of your various tanks and artillery pieces to take away any conclusion (and after a more detailed reading I disagree with ALOT of your placement, movement and target selection choices), especially 5 months after the actual game was played

When I write, I focus on the 'why' instead of the 'how.' You can see the 'how' in the pictures. What would you have changed and why?

and like I've said before the only thing that you actually say the Punisher kills is 2 bikes. If the Punisher performed so admirably during the actual battle then why don't you say it in the report?

DarkHound, in his conclusion, wrote:The Punisher was a monster though, followed by the Vanquisher and the two Battle Tanks while the Executioner didn't really earn its keep.

PhantomViper wrote:That "Battle Report" exemplifies all the reasons why I don't play in Vassal, you can't compare it with playing in a real table, you and your opponent could have played a game of Dawn of War that the comparable result to a real game of 40k would have been about the same.

What? Why?

DarkHound wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:How can the Executioner be out of range? It has an effective range of 42", wheren't you playing on a 4' table?

And if your opponent is so "placement minded" why didn't he spread up and TB anyway? Wasn't he affraid of the Colossus?

Sure there were clusters, but I didn't think the Executioner wasn't in range to hit the cluster of 4, and hitting the closer squads would be a waste. The Punisher had those covered. I suppose he was afraid of the Colossi, but if he could draw their fire for 2 turns, they wouldn't be able to kill the black based squad holding 2 objectives before the end of the game.

This is one of the things that I would have changed, you have the Executioner targeting the least favourable unit for it, that black based squad HAD to be spread out so that it could cover both objectives, the Punisher should have traded spots with the Executioner because it doesn't care about placement, allowing the Executioner to hit the clustered up targets.

Sorry but despite what you say, I can't find any evidence whatsoever from the pictures that your opponent paid any attention to squad deployment when facing templates, appart from that single squad, everything else is clumped up, your Collossus and even your normal LR should have performed allot better than the Punisher in that type of situation.

The other thing that I disagree with is your movement and placement, you have your 72" LR placed waaay up front and your lower ranged Executioner and Punisher at the back, this doesn't make any sense... Also, why move forward so early in the game against an opponent that is so short ranged? There was no need to start moving before the third turn.

DarkHound wrote:

Your report is way too vague about the performance of your various tanks and artillery pieces to take away any conclusion (and after a more detailed reading I disagree with ALOT of your placement, movement and target selection choices), especially 5 months after the actual game was played

When I write, I focus on the 'why' instead of the 'how.' You can see the 'how' in the pictures. What would you have changed and why?

I really can't see the how in the pictures, I can see what dies, but I can't see why those things died, what fired at what target, what was the scatter, what did you roll and what did your opponent rolled, etc... Might be because I suck at understanding Vassal images but I really can't get that information from your report.

DarkHound wrote:

and like I've said before the only thing that you actually say the Punisher kills is 2 bikes. If the Punisher performed so admirably during the actual battle then why don't you say it in the report?

DarkHound, in his conclusion, wrote:The Punisher was a monster though, followed by the Vanquisher and the two Battle Tanks while the Executioner didn't really earn its keep.

But you don't say or even better, don't demonstrate during the BR WHY he was a monster. In such a target rich and devoid of cover environment I find it really hard to believe that the 2 tanks less suited at killing marine bikes (because they have low strength and low AP in the case of the Punisher and very low volume of fire, low strength and low AP in the case of the Vanquisher), are precisely the tanks that performed better for you...

Here's a question:

The rule book says that ordnance barrage weapons must remain stationary, so the Colossus and the Griffon are going to stay put if you want the to fire. That means you can move your Medusa or Basilisk and fire directly right?

Also: Is it required to have crew on your artillery?

Yes to your first question, no to your second.

Wait wait wait, clarify this please. Are you saying the punisher is superior to the executioner?!?

I said, that the executioner will be the only LR variant I consider superior to the punisher. But this highly depends on the enemy's actions. if the enemy spaces properly, so that you get 1 model per small blast marker, you wont have fun with the executioner. How about... 2 kills with 5 small blast hits? (assuming cover)^^

The main strength of the punisher is, that the enemy can do absolutely nothing to save MEQs from his fury. Going to ground? Useless, armour is as good as the improved cover. Spacing? Useless, there are no blast weapons. One model in sight and casualties cant be denied. And again, a pair of punishers reliably kills a combat squad a turn, and the opponent can do nothing about it.

But still the executioner is important against deepstriking terminators or just to force the opponent to space his models.

400 points to kill a combat squad? Wow, super awesome.

It isn't 400 points and furthermore it will kill a 10 man squad per turn, it even stands a very good chance of taking a terminator squad out per turn.

A Punisher with Heavy Bolter Sponsons comes out to 200 pts exactly, so 2 will come to 400
That will cause 6.44 dead marines a turn. At 24". Not moving.
Without the Sponsons, you save 40 points, and cause about 5.12 wounds.

Against Marines, to match those results, a regular Leman Russ needs 7.73 Marines under its Large Blast. Not quite that likely, but that's 1 regular Leman, and not even counting the Heavy Bolters which account for 1/3 of the punisher's output (Which the regular Leman Russ can get as well).
150 Points of tank here has a quite good chance to beat 400 Points of Punishers.

Combat squad of Marines is about 90 points. At 24" range, you have maybe 2 turns of shooting before someone sticks a meltagun/many krack grenades up the leman's tailpipe. 200 points of marines traded for 400 points of weak tanks.

I.e. Punisher sucks.

Eh I think it can do well with Pask as a MC hunter. It can put a pretty slowed number of wounds on them.

Still, its pretty darn expensive. I'd like to try it out though.

odorofdeath wrote:Eh I think it can do well with Pask as a MC hunter. It can put a pretty slowed number of wounds on them.

Still, its pretty darn expensive. I'd like to try it out though.

I'd also recommend trying the same thing with a standard Russ. i bet it works better.

Terminus wrote:I.e. Punisher sucks.

Compared to what? 360 points that can kill 5 MEQs (one of which will be a special, heavy weapon, or sergeant) spaced out and in cover.

alarmingrick wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Eh I think it can do well with Pask as a MC hunter. It can put a pretty slowed number of wounds on them.

Still, its pretty darn expensive. I'd like to try it out though.

I'd also recommend trying the same thing with a standard Russ. i bet it works better.

A LRBT can only inflict a single wound per turn with its cannon, which can be negated by cover. The Paskisher outperforms it with 2.59 wounds (vs T6 3+) to the LRBT's .33 wounds, after scatter and cover.

DarkHound wrote:

Terminus wrote:I.e. Punisher sucks.

Compared to what? 360 points that can kill 5 MEQs (one of which will be a special, heavy weapon, or sergeant) spaced out and in cover.

alarmingrick wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Eh I think it can do well with Pask as a MC hunter. It can put a pretty slowed number of wounds on them.

Still, its pretty darn expensive. I'd like to try it out though.

I'd also recommend trying the same thing with a standard Russ. i bet it works better.

A LRBT can only inflict a single wound per turn with its cannon, which can be negated by cover. The Paskisher outperforms it with 2.59 wounds (vs T6 3+) to the LRBT's .33 wounds, after scatter and cover.

your not counting sponson/hull weapons are you?

DarkHound wrote:

Terminus wrote:I.e. Punisher sucks.

Compared to what? 360 points that can kill 5 MEQs (one of which will be a special, heavy weapon, or sergeant) spaced out and in cover.

Well, they can't be fully spaced out AND in cover. Who fields 5-man squads except razorspam armies? In which case they are often clumped up after they fall out of their transport. 5 space marines clumped up and in cover are not a serious threat anyway, unless we're talking longfangs, in which case they are well-taken care of by artillery or a special weapons squad with demo charges, or any number of things available to the IG.

The Punisher sucks because you pay 30 points more for the gun. It should be 150 points like the Russ and Exterminator (and really the exterminator should be cheaper).

Yes, I agree that its a bit overpriced. Even if the Punisher cannon was only AP 5 it would be passable. AP - basically eliminates any chance of transport busting.

Alarmingrick: can you please explain that statement? I don't see how a single large blast, sponsons and a Hull weapon can out-perform a similarly equipped Punisher.

alarmingrick wrote:your not counting sponson/hull weapons are you?

Since both vehicles have access to them at the same prices, it would inflate their scores at the same rate. The only point of difference is in the main gun.

Terminus wrote:Well, they can't be fully spaced out AND in cover. Who fields 5-man squads except razorspam armies? In which case they are often clumped up after they fall out of their transport. 5 space marines clumped up and in cover are not a serious threat anyway, unless we're talking longfangs, in which case they are well-taken care of by artillery or a special weapons squad with demo charges, or any number of things available to the IG.

The Punisher sucks because you pay 30 points more for the gun. It should be 150 points like the Russ and Exterminator (and really the exterminator should be cheaper).

A 10 man squad of Marines can be spaced such than a small blast template can't hit more than a single model and still gain cover. Not all the models have to be in the cover, just over 50% of them and the entire unit gets cover. They can very easily be spaced out and in cover.

Who cares about 5 man squads? 360 points can open up on a 180-200 point squad (10 man Tac with upgrades) and kill it reliably in 2 turns regardless of cover, spacing and with only a single model in LoS or range. During the enemy's turn between finishing off the squad you've got AV14/13/11 to protect yourself.

What else competes? Artillery: the Manticore is prime contender I suppose, so we'll start there. 2 Manticores fire an average of 4 templates a turn. If you're getting LoS to a model, you can still subtract your BS despite firing indirectly so their accuracy is still 50%. You can usually get 3 models under a single template, but say there's a favorable scatter in there. (3x4)/2 and I'll give you 1 for grins and giggles and you've got 7 hits. You'll drop 1.19 on your roll to wound, leaving you with 5.81 wounds (and you can't cause allocation because they're firing separately). After the armor saves, your two Manticores kill 1.92 Marines, which are guaranteed to be joes. You kill half as many Marines a turn, and you're worse off against Terminators and GEQs.

3 Basilisks? 5 hits, 4.15 wounds, 2.07 kills. Even if they don't get cover, the Punishers beat them. Three Colossi gets 4.15 wounds to the Punisher's 5, and cost 60 points more.

Special weapons squads? Demo-charges? How do you intend to get one into range?

You know what I'm dieing to compare it to? Two Executioners with sponsons. Say you're lucky and can get 2 models under the template. That's 10 templates, times two then divided by two, means you've got 10 hits. You'll lose nearly two to wound (8.3 left), then cover comes in and you kill 4.15 while costing 440 points to the Punisher's 360.

Are you going to argue range? What deployment puts you more than 30" away from the enemy? Dawn of War, and that pretty much hamstrings all the contenders.

Nothing competes with the Punisher pound for pound against infantry, except its weight in Guardsmen (which are the most cost effective infantry killers in game, I might add).

@DarkHound

Spot on. But:

why do you think 400p in lasguns is better than 400p in punisher tanks?

Dont forget that lasguns fire subsequently and may be out of 12" and out of range because they need much space, and that they can be locked and so on.

72 lasguns and 8 laspistols (8 infantry squads) will probably kill 6-7 Marines a turn (assuming they all get 12" range and fire in one volley...), thats about the same result.

Darkhound is dropping truth bombs all over this thread. Well done.

-Nazdreg- wrote:why do you think 400p in lasguns is better than 400p in punisher tanks?

I would say that it's because they can't be shaken or stunned, are scoring, and can be ordered to FRF/SRF and really put a hurting on infantry in ways that the Punisher can only dream about.

Did I miss anything?

I would say that it's because they can't be shaken or stunned, are scoring, and can be ordered to FRF/SRF and really put a hurting on infantry in ways that the Punisher can only dream about.

Did I miss anything?

well, shaken/stunned = locked in combat

and I said, 400p lasguns kill 6-7 marines (in a vacuum assumption of over 70 guns being in 12" to target). 2 punishers do the same.

so if we go FRFSRF we could have the correct assumption with some out of range, some in 12", some without the order (most of the time you cannot order 70 lasguns FRFSRF ).

And if you count orders, you should add a ccs to the points which will reduce the amount of lasguns.

Ah and dont forget terrain and LOS issues with so many guys...

I think in fact they are all about the same, but the punishers have the punishment coming from one spot with the drawback of being a non scoring unit and being easier to kill up close.

+1 to Darkhound

QFT

Darkhound, the thing I dispute about your entire analysis is the amount of models under a large blast. You're saying your average is 3 under a large blast.
I don't know to which extent you face conga lines all over the board, but in the game's I've played, units in cover are going to be bunched up. Units in the open are generally going to be more spaced, but I've still never had trouble getting 5+ under a large blast.

Note: My calculations now are assuming the 50% hit rate for templates you calculated. I'm using the formula of ((2 Punisher's firing on Meq)/((50%)(Chance to Wound)(Saves)))/Number of shots) to determine how many models need to be under the template to match the 2 punishers.

DarkHound wrote:
What else competes? Artillery: the Manticore is prime contender I suppose, so we'll start there. 2 Manticores fire an average of 4 templates a turn. If you're getting LoS to a model, you can still subtract your BS despite firing indirectly so their accuracy is still 50%. You can usually get 3 models under a single template, but say there's a favorable scatter in there. (3x4)/2 and I'll give you 1 for grins and giggles and you've got 7 hits. You'll drop 1.19 on your roll to wound, leaving you with 5.81 wounds (and you can't cause allocation because they're firing separately). After the armor saves, your two Manticores kill 1.92 Marines, which are guaranteed to be joes. You kill half as many Marines a turn, and you're worse off against Terminators and GEQs.

I'd say that the Manticore's focus is anti Vehicle and horde, not Meq killing, but sure.
It requires 8 models under its templates to get the same results. Unlikely, but against a horde of orks, those numbers are going to come out different
Conclusion: Using the Manticore for Meq control is not the best idea

DarkHound wrote:
3 Basilisks? 5 hits, 4.15 wounds, 2.07 kills. Even if they don't get cover, the Punishers beat them. Three Colossi gets 4.15 wounds to the Punisher's 5, and cost 60 points more.

I'm not sure what happened here with the bassies, but I think you dropped a couple of hits. Shouldn't that be 9?
Anyway, in the open, a trio of Basilisks require 3.56 hits each. I don't find that too unlikely, especially with ordnance barrage rules, since any hits you roll on the 2nd and 3rd shot significantly increase your accuracy.
In cover, that number rises up to 7.11 required. Pretty high. Then again, I have yet to see a marine squad in cover that's spaced out sufficiently to avoid a large blast. Also, indirect fire reduces the likelihood of even having to deal with cover saves in the first place.

2 Collossi require 5.33 hits to match 2 Punishers. 3 Collossi require 3.56. That's not at all unreasonable to me, and seems like a much better bet than relying on the punisher.

DarkHound wrote:
Special weapons squads? Demo-charges? How do you intend to get one into range?

Plasma Guns give it a run for it's money, perhaps?

DarkHound wrote:
You know what I'm dieing to compare it to? Two Executioners with sponsons. Say you're lucky and can get 2 models under the template. That's 10 templates, times two then divided by two, means you've got 10 hits. You'll lose nearly two to wound (8.3 left), then cover comes in and you kill 4.15 while costing 440 points to the Punisher's 360.

8.3 kills . . . and you're still arguing the Punisher is better? Why are you shooting at marines in cover in the first place?

DarkHound wrote:
Are you going to argue range? What deployment puts you more than 30" away from the enemy? Dawn of War, and that pretty much hamstrings all the contenders.

It's not that you won't be in range, it's the fact that a rear armor 11 vehicle within 24" of the enemy is going to get toasted pretty soon, no matter how much you bubblewrap it. And if you're already bubblewrapping, might as well use a useful tank and leave infantry killing to the blob around the tank.

DarkHound wrote:
Nothing competes with the Punisher pound for pound against infantry, except its weight in Guardsmen (which are the most cost effective infantry killers in game, I might add).

Nothing competes with the Punisher against extremly spread out Meq in cover. Against normally spread out meq's in cover, 2 Collosi will do just fine.

Irdiumstern wrote:Darkhound, the thing I dispute about your entire analysis is the amount of models under a large blast. You're saying your average is 3 under a large blast.
I don't know to which extent you face conga lines all over the board, but in the game's I've played, units in cover are going to be bunched up. Units in the open are generally going to be more spaced, but I've still never had trouble getting 5+ under a large blast.

Note: My calculations now are assuming the 50% hit rate for templates you calculated. I'm using the formula of ((2 Punisher's firing on Meq)/((50%)(Chance to Wound)(Saves)))/Number of shots) to determine how many models need to be under the template to match the 2 punishers.

Can you walk us through the formula? Maybe I'm stupid, but I can't get it to work.

Now, to your contention of my template estimates; if a Marine player sees 3 Colossi or Basilisks, hell even a couple of Executioners, he is going to be careful. Any MEQ player I know takes the extra minute to space his troops in the presence of pie plates from space. The only time you get more than 5 models under a template is when Guardsmen fall out the back of a Chimera. Otherwise, even disembarking from a Rhino, you can spread the Marines across all the access points. I can't think of a situation where the rules keep a player from neutering blast templates by spacing out his models.

I'll let the above stand as a rebuttal to your calculations regarding artillery.

DarkHound wrote:Special weapons squads? Demo-charges? How do you intend to get one into range?

Plasma Guns give it a run for it's money, perhaps?

DarkHound wrote:You know what I'm dieing to compare it to? Two Executioners with sponsons. Say you're lucky and can get 2 models under the template. That's 10 templates, times two then divided by two, means you've got 10 hits. You'll lose nearly two to wound (8.3 left), then cover comes in and you kill 4.15 while costing 440 points to the Punisher's 360.

8.3 kills . . . and you're still arguing the Punisher is better? Why are you shooting at marines in cover in the first place?

I honestly didn't calculate how effective the SWs were, because I don't know how you'd get them close to the enemy. I mean, if you take two Vet squads with Plasma in Chimeras (320 points), you can irk out 4 joes at 12" using the Plasmaguns and Multilaser, if they have cover. The downside? You'll lose a Vet and a half, and two of your six guns in that first volley and they are only as durable as two Chimeras.

Why am I shooting at Marines in cover? When are Marines not in cover? If 4 of my Plague Marines are touching area terrain, or are behind my Rhino, I've got cover. Regardless of the terrain on the board, their transports will always be able to give them cover.

Irdiumstern wrote:It's not that you won't be in range, it's the fact that a rear armor 11 vehicle within 24" of the enemy is going to get toasted pretty soon, no matter how much you bubblewrap it. And if you're already bubblewrapping, might as well use a useful tank and leave infantry killing to the blob around the tank.

There are few things that can take down a Russ at 24". 3 MM Speeders can do it. Infantry can't move far enough to get within charge or Melta range (Cavalry can technically do it on a Fleet roll of 6, but Fiends are the only cavalry strong enough to hurt them). I still don't have the Dark Eldar book, but their Heat Lance can do it; I just don't know how it could be cost effective deployed. So, maybe in 2 turns, but being within 24" is not a move your opponent can punish you for immediately. I'm not going to consider Deepstriking antics because everything is vulnerable to them.

The formula gives me how many models I need under the templates to equal the amount of Meq killed by the 2 Punishers. Basically, at what point is the large blast more effective than the Punisher. I didn't phrase it very clearly, sorry.

I guess our metagames just differ in the amount of spread, then.
I'm saying, if you can get around 5 models under a large blast regularly, the Punisher is not as effective as artillery/vanilla russes.

That wasn't quite what I was asking, but in explaining what I meant I solved the problem myself. Thanks for the formula, that'll prove useful.

I'm just saying is there are no rules that actually keep one from spreading out, and the cover rules are so lenient it almost doesn't matter where one puts his models. When one's regular opponents all suddenly figure that out, it makes one appreciate Heavy Bolters.

I was going to read the text wall of theoryhammer where every unit is perfectly spaced out and your dice roll like hotcakes and no one attacks the tank sitting less than 2 feet from their lines, but it's Christmas and I don't care.

Multiple trials have verified the paper analysis: punisher sucks. Enjoy your argument, folks, and have a Merry X-mas.

As a Space Marine player, I can verify that when there are pie plates inbound my models are at exactly 2" coherency thanks to my handy dandy Gale Force 9 template.

You shouldn't base your strategy around playing people who don't know what they're doing.

Said the pot to the kettle ...

A pair of basilisks would be just as effective, while being 150 points cheaper and not having to skirt the edge of rhino-melta range. Stuff bunches up all the time, especially on tables with proper amounts of terrain and considering the prevalence of transports.

Even if we allow that punishers are the bomb-diggity when it comes to killing fully spaced out space marines in cover, that's still a horrendous point-sink for a very niche application. Don't see the point, sorry.

Terminus wrote:Said the pot to the kettle ...

Not really, no. You said people have difficulty spacing out their infantry. This is false.

Try playing 40k not on a table meant for fantasy, then we'll talk.

What does that even mean?