Let me be clear right off the bat - I'm not saying that assault squads are useless. I'm not yet experienced enough of a player to make this determination. My question is good faith - I do not understand what they are useful for.

They have essentially the same stats as regular space marines, but aren't troops so can't hold objectives. They also have less weapon options (granted, I understand why tactically a fast assault squad should not have a lascannon as an option). At 100 points for 5 marines, I can't understand in what situation you would use them over other choices: Scouts would allow you to hold objectives, Vanguard Vets are only 25 points more have have double the attacks and far better wargear, Bikes and Land Speeders cost about the same with way better options...

What's the deal, here? I'm sure they are useful, I just don't know how.

for SM theyre pretty bad no doubt, for BA as a troops choice and the -35 pt transport for dropping packs theyre pretty amazing. Also they get +1 attack for 2 ccw can have 2 special weapons

These are a great counter assault unit for a gunline army, fast enough to get to where you need them, where they can flame an opponent (if they are not in assault) or just charge in and not be subject to any attacks since they are joining a pre-existing combat. Ten man Tac squads supported by these response units are great, because the Tacs probably make it through a round of combat.

They don't look that great on paper, but double the movement and the ability to just leap over terrain that blocks LOS is amazingly useful.

Their close combat weapons gives them the extra attack, so they get 3 attacks on the charge. Against non-cc units this can be devestating with their higher then average stat lines. I've used a single assualt squad to literally destroy an entire Tau army before.

Now in this edition, it's not quite as easy to do that, since you can't consolidate into cc with another unit like you used to be able to do.

They are also great counter charge units. If you get an ork mob slamming into your line of marines, these guys can come in and offer a very solid counter punch. If you want to kit them out with flamers, their fast speed makes it easier for them to get into the face of the horde units you want to whittle down before they can get into your gun lines.

They have a lot of uses, you've just gotta be careful with how you use them. Take a regular squad and slam it into some genestealers, or Khorne Berserkers, and you just threw those points away. Into a unit of Necrons warriors, or a squad of IG, and their win.

rdlb wrote:These are a great counter assault unit for a gunline army, fast enough to get to where you need them, where they can flame an opponent (if they are not in assault) or just charge in and not be subject to any attacks since they are joining a pre-existing combat.

This is wrong, as they can be attacked by anyone in base to base with them.

I agree with jdjamesdean; BA Assault units differ entirely than SM because theyre Troops and have the Descent of Angels Special Rule

In short they're useless =P

*flame shield - ON*

Let's please leave Blood Angels out of this. For one thing, they have completely different rules and wargear options which dramatically alter their usefulness. Additionally, as others have pointed out, they are not Fast Attack in the BA codex; they are classified as Troops. As such, it's like saying in response to questioning the usefulness of Assault squads that "no, Land Raiders are pretty awesome" - they are completely different things. I'm talking just plain vanilla SM Assault Squads.

I hadn't considered the extra attacks from dual CCW's. I've only used these guys once, and typically use Assault Terminators for up-close work when I rarely play my own Space Marines.

You just said it yourself. The assault terminators work better as a counter charge unit. or a Dread. Both of which are far more cheaper than a 10 man ASM.

The only use I can think of with them is when shrike's around.

Well they do kinda work...

...in 500 point tournaments in which HQs are optional and you can take just one troop choice. With weird rules that are not part of the usual 40k rules. I won a tournament like that with 5 Assault Marines.

But even then I use them as bait, or to contest objectives. A speeder might have done a better job, now that I think about it.

So yeah. I think they're just too soft, and being soft before arriving to pound the enemy is a bad thing. They're good with Shrike, I guess, but that's because you get a first turn charge, meaning you don't have to jump around the battlefield dodging bullets.

pg 41 BRB--"models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat must attack that unit."

So any models not in base to base can attack you if you join an existing combat, but if you attack a small squad or monstrous creature that is already engaged with someone else, it can't attack the new unit in the assault.

This is great for counter assault.

Assault marines are decent counter assault units. they arn't meant to attack dedicated CC units like Terminators, mega nobs, Banshees and the like, but they are good at what they are good at.


they are worth their points as a harrassment unit/distraction/kill all enemy that suck in CC unit.


their main issue is that Assault Termnators are much more killy and fullfill the same role while also doing another. and they compete with Speeders for slots.


they are very effective at killing low rear armor tanks, long ranged enemy units(FWs, battlesuits, broadsides, guardians, heavy weapon teams, LRBTs, Basilisks...) and contesting objectives.




It's not that they are bad, it's that there are units that are better then them in their codex/FoC slot.

I play an army that includes Shrike and three full sized units of assault marines with dual flamers and fists, which is pretty much the pinnacle of what assault marines can be with a whole army built around them, and IMO they're still overpriced and underpowered for what they can do.

They can take orks 1-1 if I get the charge (but orks always outnumber me). Against space wolves or CSM I need at least a 2-1 numerical advantage--and the charge. Against BA assault marines, well once I charged all three units plus Shrike against a unit of 10 BAs with a librarian and priest and just barely finished them off in 2 rounds with average dice (and positioning Shrike in base with the sanguinary for an I5 kill). About 3-1 advantage against BAs or units with a character, and 5 or 6 to 1 versus terminators, more if Vulkan is there. And that's getting the charge and escaping with maybe 3-5 casualties. So for a hand-to-hand unit, they're outclassed by even the basic troops of a lot of other armies.

And they can't take melta, only one power weapon/fist and they don't get meltabombs as an option like they did in the last codex. That would be awesome--30 guys with melta bombs--but only krak grenades, which are okay, but not awesome.

And if they get caught in the open, a couple of mooks with plasma guns can cripple the unit. Also they're not fearless, and if a combat against a character with a power weapon and a lot of attacks goes badly, they're trying to roll a 4 or something on 2 dice not to run. And 3d6 can carry you a long way if you're anywhere near your board edge. I recently had a full-strength unit of assault marines get caught by a thunderwolf wolf lord, lost combat by about 4, then broke and ran 15" off the table in turn 1.

Mobility is really the only major thing that they have going for them.

Ouze wrote:Let me be clear right off the bat - I'm not saying that assault squads are useless. I'm not yet experienced enough of a player to make this determination. My question is good faith - I do not understand what they are useful for.

They have essentially the same stats as regular space marines, but aren't troops so can't hold objectives. They also have less weapon options (granted, I understand why tactically a fast assault squad should not have a lascannon as an option). At 100 points for 5 marines, I can't understand in what situation you would use them over other choices: Scouts would allow you to hold objectives, Vanguard Vets are only 25 points more have have double the attacks and far better wargear, Bikes and Land Speeders cost about the same with way better options...

What's the deal, here? I'm sure they are useful, I just don't know how.

they're just one of those units thats destined to always suck. that's all. there are a few situations where they're really good - charging into orks for instance - but you can cover your bases vs. orks with flame thrower guys, who will also be useful in a far greater variety of situations. dont over analyze. if you see a unit and think "this doesnt seem all that good" it probably isnt.

5ed really put the boot to vanilla assault marines. They used to be a decent counter assault and mobile troubleshooter. Between rules changes and option changes they've become substandard compared to other units. So I pretty much agree with FI. Not much reason to take them in a vanilla SM list.

Vanguard Vets are only 25 points more have have double the attacks and far better wargear

They also lack jump packs at that price. To give them jump packs costs another 10 points per model. Once again, vanguard are viable in BA but not so much in a vanilla SM list, but that's a digression I guess.

pg 41 BRB--"models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat must attack that unit."

So any models not in base to base can attack you if you join an existing combat, but if you attack a small squad or monstrous creature that is already engaged with someone else, it can't attack the new unit in the assault.

This is great for counter assault.

You need to read the latest rule book FAQ on GWs website and also check the rulebook for what consititutes the beginning of combat. What you say is incorrect and a common error (the quoted rule is redundant as written and just causes confusion).

They're fast, and twice as offensive as Tactical Marines in assault.

The best solution to some enemy units (Reaver Jetbikes, for example), is to assault them. Assault Marines both catch such units, and kill faster once they get there.

Melta bomb delivery

hope springs eternal

Assault marines can't have meltabombs anymore. Only the sergeant can have em. One attack hitting on 6's against walkers or vehicles moving more than 6" isn't really viable antitank.

although I did have a land raider crusader get aced by a melta-bomb toting sergeant at the last tournament. pretty incredible.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Assault marines can't have meltabombs anymore. Only the sergeant can have em. One attack hitting on 6's against walkers or vehicles moving more than 6" isn't really viable antitank.

But they do make perfect Jihadist Marines!

As a BT footslogging player I use one or two small squads to tie up devastator squads/lootas/anything that can bring the pain long range, they work very well in this compactly for me.

So the bottom line here is that, if you take them, they are best used to push non-dedicated-cc off of objectives/targets of opportunity and possibly for light anti-armor work (skimmers and such) but ultimately there are better choices in the codex for that role and that price, so are a grade B or C choice, right? No melta bombs, no melta weapons, no power weapons - except for giving the sergeant a power fist or lightning claws, and that that point you could have gotten either 2 or 3 deep striking land speeders with either HB's or multimeltas.

Although this is now wandering away from "tactics" and into "wishlist" I think they could solve a great deal of the problems with this unit simply my making them a troop choice, as they have done in other codexes.

Thanks for the input. Until I started playing them, I thought gretchin sucked, and then realized they're actually awesome; I thought this was a similar situation where there is a good application for them that I simply wasn't aware of.

rdlb wrote:pg 41 BRB--"models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat must attack that unit."

So any models not in base to base can attack you if you join an existing combat, but if you attack a small squad or monstrous creature that is already engaged with someone else, it can't attack the new unit in the assault.

This is great for counter assault.

psst

if you assault me the beginning of combat starts after you get there
it's still ok at counterassault just not against a hard target but its far too pricey

The very moment people say its an "ok" unit, you know it's not =P

The main purpose they serve is getting you to pay a ton of $$$ for 10 marines that really don't hit very hard

Yuber wrote:The very moment people say its an "ok" unit, you know it's not =P

preach it brother

That sermon relies on the religious belief that things are either good or terrible. There is such a thing as a middle ground between those two concepts.

That said, yeah, assault marines are not good, at present, given what they have to go up against. Shrike helps, though, and can make them more competitive, as in Flavius' list.

Mannahnin wrote:That sermon relies on the religious belief that things are either good or terrible. There is such a thing as a middle ground between those two concepts.

That said, yeah, assault marines are not good, at present, given what they have to go up against. Shrike helps, though, and can make them more competitive, as in Flavius' list.

given the choice between terrible, ok, and good, its better to take something ok than something terrible and better still to take something good than something ok, right? you should always take the best option available to you, shouldnt you? if you're playing competitively. not saying you always have to do that. I played noise marines sunday just for the love of pink marines.

The most common reasons to field an "ok" unit in a competitive list are a) because you have found a combo and built your list to provide synergy with and boost the value of said "ok" unit, b) because using unusual units and lists frequently catches opponents out, as they are less familiar with the unit's & army's capabilities than you are, and c) because varying your play experience and using lists you come up with rather than copying from the internet is more fun.

A and B I can go with. I already covered C I said for competitive purposes. If the objective is to just try something different then there's nothing wrong with that. As far as net-listing... there's no need to reinvent the wheel. the net lets you take advantage of other peoples experiences. thats a good thing.

Sure, sharing ideas online is great. But it's not a substitute for personal experience.

I still play for fun when I'm playing competitively. I don't generally field any list I don't do most of the work to create, and I have an aversion to standardized lists. I'm still playing competitively.

Assault Squads are very handy, particularly if they have double-flamers. Start them on a flank and use them to mop up infantry that your shooting softens up. Or use them to pull a Tactical/Devastator squad out of trouble. They may not be great on the charge, but it's often a great advantage to being able to hold someone in combat and prevent their charges, and with 12" jump moves, you can bounce Assault Squads around for screening short range shooting: Move in beside and then run in between. They can also get nice and close for some dual flamers.

Against vehicles they'll hit with a Melta bomb automatically, and against Immobilized or Stunned Dreadnoughts they'll hit on WS, which makes a Melta Bomb more effective than a PowerFist, particularly against AV13.

As has been said, they're mostly good as a bullying unit. They can thresh through weaker CC units decently.

Adding a Chaplain enhances them to the point where they can go toe to toe with some tougher enemies, (providing you can get the charge) though they'll still be nothing but a speed bump to deathstar killy units. But that another 125 points and an HQ slot to make an already mediocre unit approach something viable, and sticking him in Terminator armor with Assault Terminators is still a better option, most of the time. I'd only do it if you absolutely feel you need a fast counter-charge unit for your gunline, and for whatever reason, don;t feel like having more useful HQ choices in your army.

Much of the Vanilla codex sucks. You just have to try and see what works.

As a distraction unit I can say a 10 man assault squad with claws and a chaplain attached (with JP) is a nasty thing to put against orks.

Against anything else you have to take your chances.

Assault Squad with melta bombs is good for taking out vehicles, but there are better anti-tank units out there

Mannahnin wrote:The most common reasons to field an "ok" unit in a competitive list are a) because you have found a combo and built your list to provide synergy with and boost the value of said "ok" unit, b) because using unusual units and lists frequently catches opponents out, as they are less familiar with the unit's & army's capabilities than you are, and c) because varying your play experience and using lists you come up with rather than copying from the internet is more fun.

Nothing to catch an opponent out with ASMs. Nope siree there is just nothing. But hey, if you wanna preach your own message, I think we can both coexist =)

I've used them pretty successfully against guard and orks and the like in squads of ten with a chaplain. If they get the charge, there's enough attacks to cut through anything reasonable.

Yuber wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The most common reasons to field an "ok" unit in a competitive list are a) because you have found a combo and built your list to provide synergy with and boost the value of said "ok" unit, b) because using unusual units and lists frequently catches opponents out, as they are less familiar with the unit's & army's capabilities than you are, and c) because varying your play experience and using lists you come up with rather than copying from the internet is more fun.

Nothing to catch an opponent out with ASMs. Nope siree there is just nothing. But hey, if you wanna preach your own message, I think we can both coexist =)

You haven't played against Flavius' alpha-striking Shrike list. I think I saw a BA player concede on turn 2 against it.

1.) They look cool.

2.) They can be fluffy.

3.) If you're footslogging, they'll get shot first, often drawing a disproportionate amount of shooting away from the rest of your army.

4.) Tau and Guard hate them.

shealyr wrote:1.) They look cool.

2.) They can be fluffy.

3.) If you're footslogging, they'll get shot first, often drawing a disproportionate amount of shooting away from the rest of your army.

4.) Tau and Guard hate them.

On point 1, that is why I got mine. Perhaps I just had a bad opinion of them because used them poorly - very poorly - the first time I used them. I added a jump pack chaplain to them, and had them assault a undamaged deff dread. They could not hurt him, and they could not fall back. I had to wait until it forced a leadership check which i failed to get them away from him. Was an early game, where I did stuff without thinking all the way through.

Has anyone tried to use them as mobile flamers instead of mobile chargers? Not saying you should never charge, only that you should not always charge.
I think it would be viable to only use them as close shooters. Fly up, double flamers + 7 bolt pistol + seargeant plasma pistol. Then flame again next round or fly of and flame something else, the power armour allows them to survive enemy shooters and their cc stats to avoid getting killed by mediocre enemies that charges.

Would be very fluffy for salamander list.

in a vulkan list I can see that working against hoardes....

Problem is you're sacrificing points to flame squads when you could meet a fully mech army and not be able to do anything with those assault squads

True, that is why in my head i though one assault squad with 10 men + 2 flamers + sergeant plasma pistol + melta bomb.
Then a second assault squad with 6 men, plasma pistol + sergeant plasma pistol + powerfist + melta bomb. So you have both covered.

Since even when facing mech it might be something that goes down early, or some support squad that you can attack.
And if not you could always fire the sergents plasma pistol and try to open up a light vehilce, and if that don't work 10 kraks should work.
The second assault squad is more against mech.

I really like my assault marines. I stick them behind impassible terrain or LoS blockers midfield and use them to threaten enemy advances with their 18 inch potential charge range. But I do admit, I prefer to use Terminators for surprise countercharging.

In my experience, they don't get to shoot the flamers that often. A lot of the time, you don't want to shoot at all and risk the opponent pulling models that will cause you to fail your assault. And even if you do shoot the flamer and pistols, you're still not doing anywhere as much damage as your 25-27 str4 attacks plus the powerfist will do when you assault, so it's nearly always better to assault them.

They really depend on other units from the army to destroy transports for them so they can assault the contents. You don't want your assault guys stranded out in the open near a transport that they failed to destroy, because then the guys in the transport can get out, shoot, and assault them.

I never even combat squad my big assault units (or take them in units smaller than 10). They're so fragile that they need the massive number of attacks and bulk of the unit to be able to kill things in HtH and survive.

If you're using them as a suicide unit, that's fine. But if you want a sacrificial flamer unit, you'll get better impact for fewer points by taking 5 sternguard or a command squad in a pod with combi-flamers/heavy flamers.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
I never even combat squad my big assault units (or take them in units smaller than 10). They're so fragile that they need the massive number of attacks and bulk of the unit to be able to kill things in HtH and survive.

It's quite possible to have a lovely romp around the field with a full 10 man squad with a powerfist. There are enough wounds to keep the squad alive, and enough attacks to hack their way through just about anything.

they look cool

martin74 wrote:they look cool

That too

I know this is off topic, but is a Blood Angels army with a core of jump pack assault marines considered a terrible idea?

Dead Horse wrote:I know this is off topic, but is a Blood Angels army with a core of jump pack assault marines considered a terrible idea?

No, and there are 2 reasons why this Identical unit in a different codex is better.

1) they are troops, hence are scoring.

2) they can take Melta guns allowing them to kill tanks and then assault any contents.

3) they can get FNP for pretty cheap.


the INSTANT Assault marines move to troops they become MUCH better because now not only can they contest Objectives they can hold objectives. they can also get free, or almost free, transports if they remove their Packs.


you definitly want them to have FNP when using their packs to move, but it's a small price to pay for being nearly immune to small arms fire.

Yes in a normal Space Marine army they are less than effective, but please don't ever say Vanguard Vets are better.

Vanguard Vets are even more useless because they cost more than Terminators, don't have an invulnerable save, and die to AP3 weapons.

Assault Marines have their limited uses in a Space Marine army, I can think that taking 3 5 man squads and jumping them around destroying tanks would be a pretty useful thing for them to do. Give the Sergent a Power Weapon and you now have 3 very fast, very hard to kill space marine units for only 375 points. Compare that to 5 tactical marines with a Meltagun, Power Weapon, and Rhino transport to give them the same speed and your looking at 435 points for it all. Yes the Tactical Marines are scoring units, but your probably going to be using them as suicide squads so why not use the non scoring units.

The main issue with Vanilla assault squads is the lack of a Melta gun option.

if they could take a Melta gun they would be 10 times better.

Right now they only have Melta bombs, Krak grenades and 1 PF model for tank hunting.

If they counted as troops it seems like it would fix most other problems, no melta aside.

The other issue is that Assault Marines compete with the *good* options Marines get. Notably, Attack/Scout Bikes, and Speeders.

If I were to use an Assault Squad, it would be a min-strength Flamerteam in Rhino, to escort a Master of the Forge. A repair and flamelobbing wagon in a mech-heavy army...

What about ditching the Jump packs, taking 10 men, 2 flamers Combat squad them, Melta Bomb for sgt and the free Drop pod and smashing into the REMF's? It would be a suicide run but it would distract the enemy. You never know?

mwnciboo wrote:What about ditching the Jump packs, taking 10 men, 2 flamers Combat squad them, Melta Bomb for sgt and the free Drop pod and smashing into the REMF's? It would be a suicide run but it would distract the enemy. You never know?

If my math is right, that's 215 points. It would be less expensive to drop in 5 assault terminators (200 points), for whom it likely would not be a suicide run... or 3 land speeders (150 points), or a dreadnought in a drop pod (around 150 points)...

Blood Angels have it right. For the next codex, I'd like to see these guys simply (a) made troops or (b) eliminated entirely as a free standing entry, and give regular marines the option to equip jump packs (but not heavy weapons if they do so).

Ouze wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:What about ditching the Jump packs, taking 10 men, 2 flamers Combat squad them, Melta Bomb for sgt and the free Drop pod and smashing into the REMF's? It would be a suicide run but it would distract the enemy. You never know?

If my math is right, that's 215 points. It would be less expensive to drop in 5 assault terminators (200 points), for whom it likely would not be a suicide run... or 3 land speeders (150 points), or a dreadnought in a drop pod (around 150 points)...

But the terminators have to worry about scattering and mishaps, and dreadnoughts often have to worry about being the only vehicle in range of several meltas the turn they drop in. It's not a terrible idea.

Ouze wrote:Blood Angels have it right. For the next codex, I'd like to see these guys simply (a) made troops or (b) eliminated entirely as a free standing entry, and give regular marines the option to equip jump packs (but not heavy weapons if they do so).

They definitely could use some kind of buff.

In my experience vanilla marine assault squads are kind of pointless
They have the same stats as my csm, but with jump packs
So this means they could be good to carry melta guns to kill tanks
But in the codex there are better options, so they have little use

The thing about the C:SM is that most, if not every thing needs to work together! Like having a rifleman dread pop transports and have a squads of assault marines mop up the now opened troops. Or using the assault marines as a counter charge unit for your tac or dev squads. Yes a bike squad can do the same, but unlike assault marines bikes can only hide behind cover, not in it. Also they can not jump over what ever is in their way like assault marines.

They can work, But only in conjunction with something else.

Okay so taking the synergy Idea of C:SM I would drop pod the Assault Marines into the Rear Echelon, then either using bikers or scout bikers support them, alternatively drop pod a dread with them (although i should take two seperate squads in seperate pods as I would have 3 drops pods and therefore strike with 2 at the same time).

I could use speeders, but the reserves rules are a bit too unreliable, how about a LSS with a scout squad coming in to support them, with the advantage that they are troops?
The rest of my army would be a Gunline static defence and hopefully I could pivot or roll up one side and "defeat in detail" to use military parlance.

In anything less than 1500pts it wouldn't be worth it, but to hit the enemy in the rear with a sizable force would force him onto the back foot and then he would inevitably change his tactics to counter these two (although relatively weak units) becoming a thorn in his side and this leave the rest of his army and the board yours for the taking....

On the subject of C:SM there is very little room for manoeuvre with the Assault Marines, one minor little tweak and they would become amazing for example making Meltas, Flamers and Plasma guns available instead of just flamers.. They would become Tank hunters of the highest calibre and immensely powerful, a minor tweak would be free PW's for 5 members but again the OP solution. The fact they can jump terrain and fortifications and assault things shouldn't be overlooked.

Sounds cool I would give both the scouts in the speeder and the assault squad a PF to hit that lovely rear armor!

In a game with many overpowered or units with obvious use, they often get overlooked.

The ability to quickly apply force in a wide range across the table is not to be under estimated. They have many possible uses;
Mopping up weakened squads
Jumping over screening units
Tying up high priority shooters (broadsides, lootas, long fangs, etc)
A reactive mobile screen for your scoring units vs enemy deep strikers
A durable contesting unit
And more....

Nothing works in a vacuum, but the ability to jump over terrain AND enemy units is a very powerful asset if used well. Too many times a unit is judged by its stat line or war gear, which in that sense they are not that great.

Think of them instead as a highly mobile rapid response unit which allows you the ability to almost ignore terrain and intervening enemy units; this is powerful.

I'll start by saying that this is a rant because I spent ages painting ten and now never use them...

They suck. Not being troops is just too big a deal to me, if I have enough troops, then I take more dreads or the always useful sternguard.

Charge ten vanilla assault marines into ten BAs who actually get to count as troops too and you will get ROFLstomped.

If you want CC, take 5 cc scouts in a storm. Lots cheaper than ten ass marines and vitally can cap and hold objectivesu, and let's be honest, they will cope only slightly less well in assaults if you heavy flame the assaultees!

They genuinely do suck for vanilla. They are so bad I'm stunned they got through play testing. The sternguard are absolutely excellent however, so if your sure you have enough troops then take them instead, there isn't a job they can't do, they slag tanks, burn men, hellfire MCs and they get as many CC attacks in assault anyway thanks to two base!

If your mates tell you otherwise its cos they wanna crush you. Put them back in the box!

So DAVETHEPAK makes a good arguement over the use of a unit that can move around the board like lightning and all the other utility, and Mattrym you focus on the Statline?

I agree Sternguard = Awesome, however can they move around the board quickly? In a Drop Pod once, in a RB or Rhino until it gets nailed or with a Libby GOI (good tactic) but they all cost points.

A squad of Assault Marines in reserve can bolster flaging sections of the line, jump over the line and hold up intercept nasties before they rip into your lines, plug gaps if a unit gets destroyed or leaves a hole in the line.

Killing everything in one round of combat is not Tactics, its statistics, you engineer a squad to kill enything in its path = Dull but there are counter tactics, a signum and PC or a unit with Plasma Guns and your Uber-killy unit goes down. Tactics is more important than statlines and I am pleased to see you know this from the use of a LSS and CC Scouts (I use this tactic with 2 storms and 2 scout cc units) but they cannot redeploy where as Jump Pack infantry can leap all over the show.

Mate, they suck. I'm not going to get into s debate with you because it simply boils down to me being right and you being wrong.

Yes they can move around quickly. Whoop Di do.

They are dedicated assault units who get owned by all other dedicated assault units! I see your points, I use mine occasionally for friendly games, they are fun to play, they are fluffy. But that was NOT the question.

They are not good. They suck. No pro players use them because you can always find something better to spend the points on. Find me a single really competitive list minus shrike that has ten in and ill be amazed.

You need to be able to cap with a fast unit? Take the LSS.

Dunno.

They're marines with an extra attack and a 18" assault range.

If you can reach something shooty, tie it up and stop it popping your shiny bits for a turn or two. Sometimes they even win.

I played 5 and tied up my opponents only other scoring unit, 8 DIre avengers. from claiming an objective from turn 3 to turn 6, which ended the game.

They don't have to kill stuff to be useful, and a 3+ save makes them reasonably durable.

The big problem is that essentially you are getting a fast bully unit with them. They are decent enough against basic non dedicated shooty units like guard vet squads, tau, perhaps even weakened ork mobs. Against units with good saves their output is lacking.
They don't perform well as a fast shooty unit and they really aren't any more survivable than a Tac marine. Its not the unit to take if you need CC punch. I don't really think its the unit to take if you need a fast non vehicle unit either.
I think one of the other issues is that they compete with Land Speeders, and 3 flavors of Bikes.

Lastly if Shrike made them scoring (troops or otherwise) then I think you would see a lot more use of them. As it is though there are other ways to get a quick deploying CC unit in the marine Codex, they may not be as cheap but more likely they are more durable or more deadly (or both)

Cheers,
~Volkan

See Vol gets it. I'm not saying they have no uses at all, I'm saying they suck because they cost points, and in the vanilla codex you can take many other things are far more efficient for said points.

The exact same can be said for vanguard vets, they are sweet looking models and heroic intervention is kinda cool, but really does anyone bother with them on a competitive setting ever?!

No. Not ever.

As I said, you go find me a good list that's genuinely competitive and ill be amazed.

As I said, I'm pissed about it cos I spent ages on them, tool them to a tourney and realised that almost everyone is WAAC.

When thats the case, they get left in box. And I've never met a serious player that says otherwise. Vanilla assault marines are broken. Make em troops and I might entertain the idea, but even then, its not a clear choice.

(EDIT: Sorry for the novel, I can't sleep and it was something to tire me,.. )Well for starters, they aren't well liked. They aren't a blunt sort of unit. You can't shove them in the list, throw them on the board and expect them to bludgeon their way through the enemy like I could, say, 6 TH/SS termies.

They are much more a scalpel than a hammer. Take a look at the board. Do you see things with 5+ or 6+ saves, and T4 or less on it? Do you see things depending on their cover to be viable? What about things that really should get the charge to be effective? You do? Hit those with it.

I cannot take my PF + 2 flamer ASM squad and reliably take on vast fleets of land raiders like I can with a full MM/HF land speeder squad which is cheaper...Though I have to worry about small uncommon things that no one would ever take like rifleman dreads, autocannon HW teams, and hydra batteries downing the whole squad in a single turn of shooting rather less.

I can however, jump them 12 inches over intervening terrain and models and slam them into that squad that just tied up my devastators that I am frantically trying to keep firing. At best, they'll knock the enemy back and escort them off the playing field, or they give me a anchor to keep the enemy in place so I can attempt to combat tactics the devastators out of the combat.

It enables you to look at that 30 man IG powerblob rushing straight for your tactical squad on an objective screaming about sparta or something, and go "Huh, I can beat that." ...and you might just be right, after those 30 GEQ get handed bolt pistol shots in quantity, a pair of flamer templates, supporting fire from the tacticals (or perhaps supporting CC even!) and a whole dicebag full of attacks that are going to hit before they get their power weapons that are fighting an uphill battle on strength and WS come into play.

You get to do fun things like take that rather pricey XV8 squad thats been hopping in and out of cover and making you want to pull your OPPONENTS hair out, and introduce them to a powerfist to the teeth. Or whatever tau eat with.

They let you tie something up for a round while your assault terminators, who so shamefully have been neglecting treadmill time at the fortress monastery, waddle their way up and assault without having to worry about being charged by the unit that may for a myriad of reasons want the walking walls of metal heading their way to NOT get their charge bonus, or want charge bonuses of their own before engaging, and also allow you a chance to sweep the enemy in the event that your assault terminators subsequently win you the combat.

"All they have going for them is mobility!"..Yea, Hi. That's a big deal. The ability to take offensive power and direct it to where it is needed at the drop of a hat is important. That's why you take multimeltas on land speeders rather than foot soldiers. That's why you take a land raider for your terminators to assault out of.

That they are not all carrying relic blades, have two wounds a pop, furious charge and FNP for their current cost, while it would be nice, doesn't change this fact one iota. Merely the list of things you should throw them at, and what you shouldn't.

I repeat: they are NOT a do-everything unit. Yes, BA ASM are better. Yes, other armies have CC options that are better. Yes, I too hate being pigeonholed into assault terminators if I want a unit to take on even troop level CC oriented MEQs reliably. Yes, you are likely better off spending points elsewhere if your opponents are walls of BA, SW, chaos marines and deathwing-esque walls of CC death...but i've been lucky enough in my past to play opponents who actually ran something other than MEQs once in a while. I suspect the same is true for a lot of folks here.

Their job is to shred GEQs, to tie up squads that should be shooting, to help you save your even less CC capable troop choices, and to deny charge bonuses to things that aren't likely to kill them outright, among other things.

I would think that this would be as basic as "Don't shoot lasguns at land raiders" but here is a short list of what happens when you take ASM and do the following, for anyone who is interested:

If you throw them at assault terminators, blood claws, blood angels, anything with the word "Khorne" in it, or any other situation where the rules are not going to side with your side of the argument and YOU KNOW IT? Your ASM Will die. You will be ridiculed. You will deserve this.

I think the problem is that when you can take LOADS of assault marines (BA Codex) they work very well. in vanilla you can take 3 squads, or 6 combat squads. not great...

That and you get to carry meltaguns. And the option of feel no pain. And you don't have to sit there and go "I'd really love these, but I have to make force chart room for my land speeders and bikes" seeing as they're troops...and then you can take objectives with them, rather than only being able to contest them like codex assault marines. The possibility of free furious charge. The advantages to BAs assault marines are larger than simply being able to take more of them. They can do all these things, and then they can go and perform the same jobs as the codex ASM.

I feel that if Vanilla Marine Assault squads could take Melta guns, they would be a decent choice.

2 melta guns that move 12" a turn(effectivly a 18" threat range, 24 for light vehicles) on a squad that can also do crowd control with an assault or finish off a vehicle.

Seconded. I'd love to see the melta-bomb confetti level of AT capability return to codex ASM. Or, alternatively, i'd love to see them get the option of a spare PW/PF or two per squad.

As it stands now though, they aren't great for taking on MEQ or heavier, particularly the CC oriented variety. This I believe has more to do with peoples dislike of them than anything. With a name like "Assault marines" you would be led to believe they're actually a contender in any sort of CC scenario....which they are not. They're simply the "best of the worst" of your CC options between your troop choices and your expensive or limited elite/HQ picks.

Play guard though, and it'll instill a healthy amount of respect for them. At least after you see a few bearing down the field to get side/rear shots with a trio of plasma pistols on your chimeras, and soon after you will probably wish you had spent the extra points for carapace armor on your vets.

With the amount of multishot S6 and better a mech IG list is likely to have on it, a trio of AV10 skimmers with the lovely vehicle squad damage rules is a bit less scary to me than a full assault marine squad.

Or hey, play tyranids. Nothing says "Oh hell." than two flamer templates landing on your gants/gaunts and then a whole bag of dice coming out for the CC attack rolls. Even if you are using horms, and have the same # of attacks per model, and even if you spent for those upgrades and get poisoned attacks, and go first with your likely mauled brood, my experience has been that trying to blunt force through 10 3+ saves isn't a winning strategy if it looks like anywhere close to equal numbers game, barring bad luck on the other guys part...which i'm not willing to depend on. You are going to lose this combat, and then you will take no retreat wounds. Even if you do win combat, you can't sweep him. He might even fall back to restart this whole process.

On the other hand, none of this matters if you play BA/SW, because, well, heh. Your troops are as good or better in CC and shooting. That's the other reason I think a lot of opinions get skewed on ASM. If all you know is your grey hunters, blood claws and BA assault squads, and proceed to judge ASM by that benchmark rather than "Hey, i have X unit here. What could I use it for?" then yes, you're going to be left unimpressed.

rdlb wrote:
They don't look that great on paper, but double the movement and the ability to just leap over terrain that blocks LOS is amazingly useful.

I would note this bit as being the bit that makes them viable.

Pretty much... they're a fast moving unit that are better in assault.. which is saying something because SM units in general are above average of standard units in assault anyways. They get 2 attacks/3 on charge. They get jump packs (good for mobility) or free transport, and they can handle a multitude of situations. The reason people don't tend to pick up the Veterans is because you need to spend a lot more points to get them to do their neat thing. While their neat thing is good, they're usually considered to be too many points. Maybe if they came with jumppacks.
They're not the best unit in SM codex by far.... I don't think they're useless.. but there are other forces that are cheaper or stronger.

SOFDC wrote:I would think that this would be as basic as "Don't shoot lasguns at land raiders" but here is a short list of what happens when you take ASM and do the following, for anyone who is interested:

If you throw them at assault terminators, blood claws, blood angels, anything with the word "Khorne" in it, or any other situation where the rules are not going to side with your side of the argument and YOU KNOW IT? Your ASM Will die. You will be ridiculed. You will deserve this.

This made my day!

I've found that assault squads become infinitely more effective when taken in groups of ten. It also counts more in how you use them. As it has been said, they can't hold their own against MEQ's and dedicated cc units, but against shootier and squishier things, they do just fine.

I've been wanting to try them for a while in a drop pod list. People tend to forget that locater beacons are not teleport homers and apply to anyone deep striking, not just terminators.

Place a drop pod or three in sensitive places and each one creates a nice 1' diameter circle for you assault marines to drop down with a flamer for light infantry or a melta for a tank hit. Or even just to get in between some bigger unit and your troops that are holding an objective, hopefully giving them another turn to get shot up.

(What I really want to try it with is vangaurd. With three pods down... You've got -- is my math right? -- a little over 9 square feet of area in which anyone is vulnerable to a heroic intervention. Removes the "hit-or-miss" aspect from the Van and might actually make them worth their points...)

Sounds like a good idea to me, I'll definitely have to try it out.

Ultimately it comes down to limited resources (points), and units which use up your limited resources (by costing points).

Assault Marines have appreciably no shooting, and often fail in their main role, which is dedicated close combat. WS4 and S4 are not impressive combat stats. Charging other WS4 and T4 models, AMs get less than 8 wounds. At best, they're a tarpit, slowly trading off body for body, at worst, they get crushed in CC.

So what about their other, utility roles?

Melta deepstrike? Two Land Speeders with multimeltas can do that, and you have the benefit of a longer melta range. They also cost fewer points.

Speedy objective contesting? Bikes and Land Speeders can both do it faster. Land Speeders in particular as they have the benefit of AMs; jumping over cover and intervening models.

How about as an area denial/countercharge unit? They can do this, and in this role they have some merit. But going back to limited resources, and AMs using up limited resources, in most situations the points spent on AMs to 'rescue' squads or vehicles could simply be invested in more squads or vehicles.

C:SM lacks any of the things C:BA possesses which makes AMs good.

If you're running a mech marine army with only rhinos--no razorbacks--then there's no space in any transport for your HQ guy to ride. So one option would be to take 5 assault marines without jump packs in the free rhino, and let the HQ ride with them. You can add the flamer and maybe gear to the assault sergeant and make a fairly assaulty little squad to support a HtH character. Cheaper than a command squad for the same base attacks.

As usual sourclams has an interesting point, this time about your investment of points.

Sanguinary Priests do make Blood Angel Assault Squads better in close combat, particularly if they charge. That said, the Sanguinary Priest is a W1 Independent Character. They also take up an Elite slot and 50pts. They're 75pts minimum if you want them to be in position to give the Assault Squad. That's about four Assault Marines in either book.

Additionally you have to give up Combat Tactics for the Red Thirst, which either does nothing, or makes the Sanguinary Priest less than optimally useful since you're paying for Furious Charge. Combat Tactics with a 3D6 Fall Back means you don't have to do the difficult gymnastics of pulling them out of combat when things go pear-shaped.

So clearly the Blood Angel Assault Squads have an advantage if the Sanguinary Priest is still alive, or you want to hammer something. If you want a roving trouble-shooter unit that can hop into combat and leave after they've dug a Tactical or Devastator Squad out of combat, then Codex Assault Squads have the advantage.

Consider the following:

Five Blood Angel Assault and a Sanguinary Priest assaulting a squad of Tactical Space Marines. They get 15 WS4 I5 attacks and 4 WS5 I5 attacks. On average they should get about 10 S5 hits, and thus 7 wounds and 2 casualties. If it was a Combat Squad of Tactical Marines, then that's 3 attacks back, or roughly zilch (0.13 casualties).

Nine Codex Assault Marines would have 27 attacks at S4 I4. That's about 13 hits, and 6 wounds, for 2 casualties. The Tactical Marines have 5 attacks at the same time, or again zilch (0.41). So both units can be expected to win that combat by roughly the same amount.

Against a squad of Imperial Guard Infantry (10), Blood Angels would get about 7 casualties. The Ultramarines would get about 8 casualties. Naturally the Ultramarines have a higher potential, but let's not get carried away with what can actually happen on the table-top when the dice aren't securely rolling the average.

Aside from being able to absorb more casualties, which is handy if you're facing an enemy that isn't shooting you with weapons that ignore Feel No Pain, the Codex Marines aren't Troops. Being Troops is a bit of a two-edged sword: They can capture objectives, but they're Assault Marines: they don't have the firepower to hold an objective; they need to leave it to make a difference. That's why Blood Angels have Tactical Squads, but let's not get nit-picky.

And we are back to BA Assault sqauds again. This is about Space Marine Assault Squads (e.g. C:SM) not the Blood Angels variant they have much better Assault troops and so this is not applicable to them. I agree with Nurglitch in the main. Vanilla Space Marines Assault Squads are about manoeuvre and pinning/ tying down those Enemy Squads you don't want to have engage your line,.

Meh on the meltagun thing. They'd still suck with melta, since bikes do the whole move fast, shoot melta thing faster and better for less points.

mwnciboo wrote: Vanilla Space Marines Assault Squads are about manoeuvre and pinning/ tying down those Enemy Squads you don't want to have engage your line,.

Whether they actually perform this role is quite debateable. It sounds good in a vacuum, but remember that these guys soak up points, and it's very possible that their value as a maneuver/speedbump unit is not commensurate with that cost.

"Vanilla Space Marines Assault Squads are about manoeuvre and pinning/ tying down those Enemy Squads you don't want to have engage your line"

Bikes can do this job as well, especially scout bikes. Infiltrating scouts can too. Pretty much the only use I can think of is to stack shrike + chaplain in an assault squad to have a hth hammer unit with fleet. Put plasma wounds on shrike and chaplain on the way in, and watch them go to town. Oh wait..blood angels do this better too...

scuddman wrote:"Vanilla Space Marines Assault Squads are about manoeuvre and pinning/ tying down those Enemy Squads you don't want to have engage your line"

Bikes can do this job as well, especially scout bikes. Infiltrating scouts can too. Pretty much the only use I can think of is to stack shrike + chaplain in an assault squad to have a hth hammer unit with fleet. Put plasma wounds on shrike and chaplain on the way in, and watch them go to town. Oh wait..blood angels do this better too...

How do blood Angels do Fleeting Assault marines better? The only thing with fleet in the BA Codex is the DC Dread.

And personally I like Bikes for the maneuver and pin role for a few reasons. The are T5, Can boost for a 3+ cover, and can score with a bike captain. Also the can be a decent shooting unit and while they aren't great in CC neither are Assault Marines.
Cheers,
~Volkan

SOFDC wrote:(EDIT: Sorry for the novel, I can't sleep and it was something to tire me,.. )Well for starters, they aren't well liked. They aren't a blunt sort of unit. You can't shove them in the list, throw them on the board and expect them to bludgeon their way through the enemy like I could, say, 6 TH/SS termies.

They are much more a scalpel than a hammer. Take a look at the board. Do you see things with 5+ or 6+ saves, and T4 or less on it? Do you see things depending on their cover to be viable? What about things that really should get the charge to be effective? You do? Hit those with it.

I cannot take my PF + 2 flamer ASM squad and reliably take on vast fleets of land raiders like I can with a full MM/HF land speeder squad which is cheaper...Though I have to worry about small uncommon things that no one would ever take like rifleman dreads, autocannon HW teams, and hydra batteries downing the whole squad in a single turn of shooting rather less.

I can however, jump them 12 inches over intervening terrain and models and slam them into that squad that just tied up my devastators that I am frantically trying to keep firing. At best, they'll knock the enemy back and escort them off the playing field, or they give me a anchor to keep the enemy in place so I can attempt to combat tactics the devastators out of the combat.

It enables you to look at that 30 man IG powerblob rushing straight for your tactical squad on an objective screaming about sparta or something, and go "Huh, I can beat that." ...and you might just be right, after those 30 GEQ get handed bolt pistol shots in quantity, a pair of flamer templates, supporting fire from the tacticals (or perhaps supporting CC even!) and a whole dicebag full of attacks that are going to hit before they get their power weapons that are fighting an uphill battle on strength and WS come into play.

You get to do fun things like take that rather pricey XV8 squad thats been hopping in and out of cover and making you want to pull your OPPONENTS hair out, and introduce them to a powerfist to the teeth. Or whatever tau eat with.

They let you tie something up for a round while your assault terminators, who so shamefully have been neglecting treadmill time at the fortress monastery, waddle their way up and assault without having to worry about being charged by the unit that may for a myriad of reasons want the walking walls of metal heading their way to NOT get their charge bonus, or want charge bonuses of their own before engaging, and also allow you a chance to sweep the enemy in the event that your assault terminators subsequently win you the combat.

"All they have going for them is mobility!"..Yea, Hi. That's a big deal. The ability to take offensive power and direct it to where it is needed at the drop of a hat is important. That's why you take multimeltas on land speeders rather than foot soldiers. That's why you take a land raider for your terminators to assault out of.

That they are not all carrying relic blades, have two wounds a pop, furious charge and FNP for their current cost, while it would be nice, doesn't change this fact one iota. Merely the list of things you should throw them at, and what you shouldn't.

I repeat: they are NOT a do-everything unit. Yes, BA ASM are better. Yes, other armies have CC options that are better. Yes, I too hate being pigeonholed into assault terminators if I want a unit to take on even troop level CC oriented MEQs reliably. Yes, you are likely better off spending points elsewhere if your opponents are walls of BA, SW, chaos marines and deathwing-esque walls of CC death...but i've been lucky enough in my past to play opponents who actually ran something other than MEQs once in a while. I suspect the same is true for a lot of folks here.

Their job is to shred GEQs, to tie up squads that should be shooting, to help you save your even less CC capable troop choices, and to deny charge bonuses to things that aren't likely to kill them outright, among other things.

I would think that this would be as basic as "Don't shoot lasguns at land raiders" but here is a short list of what happens when you take ASM and do the following, for anyone who is interested:

If you throw them at assault terminators, blood claws, blood angels, anything with the word "Khorne" in it, or any other situation where the rules are not going to side with your side of the argument and YOU KNOW IT? Your ASM Will die. You will be ridiculed. You will deserve this.

What a long quote!

Um..scout bikes do it better.

As for blood angels, I thought you could cast wings of Sanguinius on the Death company dread. Mea culpa. Librarian dreadnought only.

Mephiston also has fleet, but he's not an IC and has to cast wings to jump.

At least they look awesome. That's a plus, eh?

Um..scout bikes do it better.

In some ways, yes. Going to depend on your local conditions. Pick your poison.

You get a point of toughness, which is really going to help you in CC...Until you run into poison attacks and rending. Or thunderhammers/PFs. Non-2x strength power weapons will worry a bit less, but then again, the ASM have that extra save for dealing with all those poison wounds. Which do you run into more?

You get to shoot, and handle a sword as well as a guardsman too. Sometimes it's not an issue, othertimes it is. I personally like having the GEQs that i'm throwing my stuff at to have to roll better than I do. Always nice. You also lose access to flamers in the squad, which I have found wonderful for baking a squad in cover before assaulting. Or baking a squad utterly. Either way.

With speeding around flanking a vehicle with plasma pistols, between the scout bikers sgt plama pistol and the grenade launchers on the bikes, you can do roughly equivalent, but the ASM will have the edge in shooting strength and BS at the risk of blowing their own faces off.

Both get the same move + assault threat range...but the ASM don't care about the huge multiple combat in the way, or the clumped up friendly models that may be herpderping around in the way falling back, pinned, lashed, that immobilized land raider, a large ruin or wall terrain, a congaline of guardsmen between you and the shiny things you want to hit with a sword, nothing.

If you want a full squad with a powerfist, you wind up paying more with the scout biker squad and their ability to take mines and turbo-boost around. You're also still limited to about the same targets as with ASM. Pick whichever looks better to you and has the utility bits that wiggle your stick more.

They suck GW should not make them troops thats stupid steals of BA and even synergised ba is going to crush them and their expensive el sucko.

Muppas wrote:At least they look awesome. That's a plus, eh?

+ 1 to that!

SOFDC wrote: wiggle your stick more.

Haha that's what she said!

OK, this is a hypothetical, but lets presume that vanilla Space Marines get Stormravens, or that you houserule them in.

In that situation - vanilla assault marines can use a Stormraven - are they more viable, or still not useful? Obviously, they won't have the BA special rules, like Bloody Skies Blood of Blood or whatever...

Well,

they would be better, but if i had stormravens i would be packing them full of Assault Terminators and Ironclads not assault marines.

Yup, the point of Assault Marines is that they have their own integral movement bonus, one that makes them more mobile than if they had Rhinos. Assault Terminators, on the other hand, waddle everywhere, and need all the transports they can get. But despite the similarity of names, these units function differently. Assault Terminators are about hitting an enemy elite unit and killing it, while Assault Marines are about mopping up the survivors of your shooting, and generally harassing since they can redeploy rapidly.

I agree with the above. The Storm Raven does not actually effect the usefulness of Assault Marines. I'd say that it actually makes other choices a more obvious pick over them as it now lets things like Terminators gain a transport with more movement than before.

What assault marines would need to be on the level of some of the other units for hand to hand is something that opened up new avenues of damage to them.
Furious charge, rending, or maybe adding melee weapon options instead of gun upgrades.

As it is now they are gap fillers and counter charge. And as said previously instead of using them to bail your models out of CC you can buy more models with those points.

Cheers,
~Volkan

If Assault Marines could take something like paired LCs or Melta guns on the regular dudes(maybe if and only if the Sergeant also had the upgrade)

Not even that much, think of it like this if you could pick up just basic power weapons on 2 models it would help quite a bit on the charge. it goes from a potential 4 PW attacks to 10 when charging.
I'd think those LCs would be rather expensive for regular joes to pick up.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Volkan:

I agree that the Storm Raven makes other choices more "obvious", but I don't think it makes them any better.

Consider, for example, a squad of Assault Terminators in a Storm Raven. If they assault something on the flanks of the board, then they need to spend a turn embarking on the Storm Raven before they can assault another unit at least 18" away towards the centre of the board. In addition, they don't depend on the Storm Raven surviving to get them places. This ability to re-deploy the next turn makes them excellent trouble-shooters.

Anti-vehicle-wise, Krak Grenades and Plasma Pistols are enough for most vehicles, particularly the kind that tend to lurk far enough away from the objectives and the enemy to be annoying.

If you want Power Weapons (or Melta Bombs...), then take Vanguard Veterans: They hit hard and can have the mobility advantage of Assault Marines.

Speaking of wargear, two template weapons on Jump Infantry are exactly the kind of wargear you want for sweeping up infantry lurking in the wreckage/crater of their transport.

They aren't actually ideal Melta Gun carriers, which is something I've discovered by fielding lots of Chaos Space Marines with a pair of Melta Guns. Fistly, two shots is reliable, but you can only expect 1.32 to hit. Then you need a 4+ to destroy the vehicle. That leaves you with 0.66 reliability in that unit destroying the vehicle. They need a third, and the Blood Angel Inferno Pistol doesn't hack it for reasons elaborated below.

A further problem with Melta Guns is that they only get the Melta effect if the target is within 6". An Inferno Pistol needs to be within 3". If you kill a transport with Melta Guns, then the occupants usually fall out and murder the unit which is considerately camping at rapid fire range. I mean, they work to kill vehicles, but not the occupants. Trading a 110 point squad for a 35 point vehicle is not good.

In fact, if you can get close enough to shoot effectively with Melta Guns, then your unit was close enough to assault the vehicle. If you surround the transport and kill it with Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs, and Power Fists, then the unit inside can't even benefit from emergency disembarkation.

You can even do this without assaulting the vehicle. You run to surround the vehicle, and use another unit's Melta Guns to blow it up. That said, you can assault more than one vehicle in a turn...

In addition you're doing the transported troops a favour by enabling them to disembark their vehicle prior to their own turn, and use it for cover. Remember, Jump Infantry still take difficult terrain tests when charging. A unit holed up in wreckage is harder to kill than a unit that can't execute an emergency disembarkation.

So what's the catch? These advantages require less-than-obvious tactics. They require you to put your anti-vehicle firepower in other units (but that's okay, because other units do it better, such as Attack Bikes, Devastators, Land Speeders, Predators, etc). They require you to be able to eye-ball the distances involved accurately. Finally, they require the kind of cost-benefit analysis that most people can't do on the fly.

Basically you have to ask yourself if the potential value of an action, multiplied by its likelihood of occurring, outweighs the potential value of another action multiplied by its own likelihood of occurring.

It's more difficult to kill both a transport and its embarked unit by shooting than it is to just kill that transport. It's still more difficult to do by surround a transport with one unit and shooting it with another. However, being able to kill two units at once with a single unit's shooting is fantastic because you may be able to use the wreckage as cover, and get an assault move or run move for the Assault Squad, increasing their mobility.

Not sure if anyone said this yet (didnt feel like reading 4 pages of this post) but couldn't you jump your assault marines behind an enemy squad that you were about to decimate. Then if the entire squad is not wiped out and fail moral. they then can't fall back at all (or atleast thats wat i thought rule book said) so are stuck to just be destroyed since being sandwiched between to squads makes it really hard to run away

dmthomas7 wrote:Not sure if anyone said this yet (didnt feel like reading 4 pages of this post) but couldn't you jump your assault marines behind an enemy squad that you were about to decimate. Then if the entire squad is not wiped out and fail moral. they then can't fall back at all (or atleast thats wat i thought rule book said) so are stuck to just be destroyed since being sandwiched between to squads makes it really hard to run away

This. This is the perfect example of what I am talking about - a thinking player taking what makes a unit unique and applying it tactically to gain an advantage.

Guys, no, they are not BA, No, they do not have an "easy" button. Guess what, not everything is a Colossus. No, they are not stern guard, they are not a bloody mega chain saw.

They are a specialized scalpel that in the hands of a very good player are absolutely indispensable. Sadly, too many powers and units in recent codices are just to easy to use...

I saw a vanilla marine player use them in a game against another very good player....both players had set up great kill zones, with lots of over watch and great flanking maneuvers.

The guy with the marines won, as he had them in right position at the exact right time. Some players would say "wow, you got lucky".

Charge them in mindlessly, or use them where they will get shot to pieces before they can attack...yeah, "they suck!".

A master uses different tools for specific applications of the art. Its not luck.

As Obi-won says "in my book, there is no such thing'.

LOL Starwars Quotes!!!