After reading the horus heresy novels and reading some discussions on the primarchs, I've learnt that Angron is quite dull... and angry. So I was wondering if there is any way of making Angron a little deeper, or at least giving him a better reason to be berserk. I would like to hear your thoughts.

He's crazy.
That's pretty much it.

I know that's all GW thought of, but in a perfect world, if his fluff were to get an overhaul, how would you change it?

Mr Nobody wrote:I know that's all GW thought of, but in a perfect world, if his fluff were to get an overhaul, how would you change it?

He is angry because of all of his friends die. He doesn't like his comrades dying. He thought the reat Crusade was worthless because it cost the lives of his friends. He kept flying into vengeful rages until he lost sight of why he wanted revenge and just killed for the killing and came to like it. Thus began his relatively short path down the road to Khorne.
That. In my view is pretty good. Better than GW's one anyway.

His origin needs to be explained. That's the main problem with the HH series. They don't explain the upbringings of the Primarchs which is often the most interesting part of their story.

Whenever I think of Angron, I just picture Kratos. Basically the same guy, but in power armour.

purplefood wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I know that's all GW thought of, but in a perfect world, if his fluff were to get an overhaul, how would you change it?

He is angry because of all of his friends die. He doesn't like his comrades dying. He thought the reat Crusade was worthless because it cost the lives of his friends. He kept flying into vengeful rages until he lost sight of why he wanted revenge and just killed for the killing and came to like it. Thus began his relatively short path down the road to Khorne.
That. In my view is pretty good. Better than GW's one anyway.

Am I the only one who remembers the story as to why Angron is the way that he is?

The rulers of his homeworld took people, monkeyed around with their brains and made them fight each other. There is a reason that he behaves the way he does.

Monster Rain wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I know that's all GW thought of, but in a perfect world, if his fluff were to get an overhaul, how would you change it?

He is angry because of all of his friends die. He doesn't like his comrades dying. He thought the reat Crusade was worthless because it cost the lives of his friends. He kept flying into vengeful rages until he lost sight of why he wanted revenge and just killed for the killing and came to like it. Thus began his relatively short path down the road to Khorne.
That. In my view is pretty good. Better than GW's one anyway.

Am I the only one who remembers the story as to why Angron is the way that he is?

The rulers of his homeworld took people, monkeyed around with their brains and made them fight each other. There is a reason that he behaves the way he does.

I know that but primarchs are supposed to be better than normal people. Angron just seem to weak minded to disobey his impulses.

purplefood wrote:I know that but primarchs are supposed to be better than normal people. Angron just seem to weak minded to disobey his impulses.

Isn't that why he's a bad guy? All of the Traitor Primarchs had character flaws, Angron's was just sort of the most unsubtle.

Monster Rain wrote:

purplefood wrote:I know that but primarchs are supposed to be better than normal people. Angron just seem to weak minded to disobey his impulses.

Isn't that why he's a bad guy? All of the Traitor Primarchs had character flaws, Angron's was just sort of the most unsubtle.

I suppose that's what makes it worse. A superhuman warrior who is meant to be above mankind in all ways turns simply because he can't stop and think for a few seconds...

Angron was Lobotomized to be the Hyperagressive killing machine he is today.

he then Lobotomized his entire legion.

I'm really enjoying the Dornian Heresy stuff on B&C, the stuff about Angron and the WE staying loyal was really good.
As for "official" fluff, the surgeries used to make berzerkers were first performed on Angron by the masters of his adopted world, Angron then passed it on to his sons in the legion. To date, true berzerkers are only produced by the WE legion (such as it is) and the Black Legion, due to the process being highly secret, and guarded. Not to say that Khornate followers can't go berzerk, they just can't be "Berzerkers" in the same sense as Angron and his legion.

I pictured him as being a vetnam veteran with PTSD, he was borne to kill, trained to kill, asked to kill, and he was forced to kill so much that the line between friend and foe began to blur. That would make for a good story line; the emperor takes his unstable son, lets his friends die and then throws him into war for a few centuries.

You have read the HH novels, yes? Isn't that exactly what happened?

True, but it would be nice to see how that changes him. so far the HH novels have done a great job of showing a two-dimensional character. Maybe there's plenty to expand on as is.

Mr Nobody wrote:I know that's all GW thought of, but in a perfect world, if his fluff were to get an overhaul, how would you change it?

Maybe something happened in his origin that shattered his sanity or caused a chain of events that led to his grip on reality and his impulses to fall apart. Or his brain was messed about with Like Monster Rain said.

Lexx wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I know that's all GW thought of, but in a perfect world, if his fluff were to get an overhaul, how would you change it?

Maybe something happened in his origin that shattered his sanity or caused a chain of events that led to his grip on reality and his impulses to fall apart. Or his brain was messed about with Like Monster Rain said.

His brain was messed about with. That's actual fluff.

Yes, furthermore The Imperial Scientists offered to remove the Beserker implants but he refused.

purplefood wrote:

Lexx wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I know that's all GW thought of, but in a perfect world, if his fluff were to get an overhaul, how would you change it?

Maybe something happened in his origin that shattered his sanity or caused a chain of events that led to his grip on reality and his impulses to fall apart. Or his brain was messed about with Like Monster Rain said.

His brain was messed about with. That's actual fluff.

Yes, he had parts of his brain cut off and I'm pretty sure had some stuff added in to make him more aggressive. The reason he liked the Emperor originally was because he fought alongside his warriors, unlike the "High Riders" on his home world who simply watched the fighting.

When the Emperor returned to Terra and left the Great Crusade, Angron lost a lot of his esteem for the Emperor and from there it was a short trip to Traitorville.

I think the seeds of Heresy were sown when The Emperor forcibly removed Angron from his world. Also IIRC it was during some climatic battle and his abduction caused the deaths of all his battle brothers.

Monster Rain wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Lexx wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I know that's all GW thought of, but in a perfect world, if his fluff were to get an overhaul, how would you change it?

Maybe something happened in his origin that shattered his sanity or caused a chain of events that led to his grip on reality and his impulses to fall apart. Or his brain was messed about with Like Monster Rain said.

His brain was messed about with. That's actual fluff.

Yes, he had parts of his brain cut off and I'm pretty sure had some stuff added in to make him more aggressive. The reason he liked the Emperor originally was because he fought alongside his warriors, unlike the "High Riders" on his home world who simply watched the fighting.

When the Emperor returned to Terra and left the Great Crusade, Angron lost a lot of his esteem for the Emperor and from there it was a short trip to Traitorville.

Ah well so all three of the above then. Poor Angron.

I guess that the bottom line is that I don't always find "uncomplicated" to necessarily be boring.

i think someone smashed his kitten and hes upset about that.....lol I can see Angron as a big softy for cuddly kitties and one day Dorn comes over and fists his kittens, and he loosed it.... IMO

Fisting someone's kitten is generally frowned upon, let alone someone who's gotten a Berserker Lobotomy.

kitten fisting. awesome.

If I recall correctly, the short story; After Desh'ea in the Horus Heresy novel Tales of Heresy. Makes it sound like not only does Angron have a severe anger issue do to his up bringing, the bezerker implants and the way the Emperor just teleported him out of his last stand. But he also seems to have severe survivors guilt due to all of his fellow Slave-Warriors being slaughtered by the Army the were standing up against while he got to live.

BrotherStynier wrote:If I recall correctly, the short story; After Desh'ea in the Horus Heresy novel Tales of Heresy. Makes it sound like not only does Angron have a severe anger issue do to his up bringing, the bezerker implants and the way the Emperor just teleported him out of his last stand. But he also seems to have severe survivors guilt due to all of his fellow Slave-Warriors being slaughtered by the Army the were standing up against while he got to live.

Oh yeah, that's right.

It was the eve of the great battle when he got taken away. Good call.

Monster Rain wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:If I recall correctly, the short story; After Desh'ea in the Horus Heresy novel Tales of Heresy. Makes it sound like not only does Angron have a severe anger issue do to his up bringing, the bezerker implants and the way the Emperor just teleported him out of his last stand. But he also seems to have severe survivors guilt due to all of his fellow Slave-Warriors being slaughtered by the Army the were standing up against while he got to live.

Oh yeah, that's right.

It was the eve of the great battle when he got taken away. Good call.

Sounds a lot less dull and two dimensional than the OP made out.

Lexx wrote:Sounds a lot less dull and two dimensional than the OP made out.

I agree with you.

Somewhat off topic but, Lion El Johnson's up-bringing is thoroughly explained in the Dark Angel novels.

Most of the primarchs up-bringing is very thoroughly explained.

Rragon
no it aint, little to nothing is said about his upbringing in the forrests of caliban, his latter tutoring by luthor is explained quite well though. I would like to see Angron and Roboute fleshed out a bit more, Roboute especially as he (appart from horus) had the biggest impact in the Heresy and post Heresy.

Lexx wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:If I recall correctly, the short story; After Desh'ea in the Horus Heresy novel Tales of Heresy. Makes it sound like not only does Angron have a severe anger issue do to his up bringing, the bezerker implants and the way the Emperor just teleported him out of his last stand. But he also seems to have severe survivors guilt due to all of his fellow Slave-Warriors being slaughtered by the Army the were standing up against while he got to live.

Oh yeah, that's right.

It was the eve of the great battle when he got taken away. Good call.

Sounds a lot less dull and two dimensional than the OP made out.

The Big E lied to him, gave him a choice to stay or teleport out. Angron choose to stay and fight and most like die. The Emperor let him go, then teleported him back anyway. That fueled his mistrust, big time. IMHO

Man, the Emperor was just setting this whole heresy up to blow and wasn't realizing it...

ToBeWilly wrote:

Lexx wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:If I recall correctly, the short story; After Desh'ea in the Horus Heresy novel Tales of Heresy. Makes it sound like not only does Angron have a severe anger issue do to his up bringing, the bezerker implants and the way the Emperor just teleported him out of his last stand. But he also seems to have severe survivors guilt due to all of his fellow Slave-Warriors being slaughtered by the Army the were standing up against while he got to live.

Oh yeah, that's right.

It was the eve of the great battle when he got taken away. Good call.

Sounds a lot less dull and two dimensional than the OP made out.

The Big E lied to him, gave him a choice to stay or teleport out. Angron choose to stay and fight and most like die. The Emperor let him go, then teleported him back anyway. That fueled his mistrust, big time. IMHO

Couldnt the Emperor have just landed his whole army to kick the ass of the slave owners? he could have let Angron keep his promise (to stay and fight) that way.
Angron is more than just HULK SMASH, but he hasnt had much of a chance to be fleshed out in the HH series. That was a hell of a grim moment at the end of the short story when he ushered the rest of the (newly named) World Eaters down into the darkness with him.

Draglide12 wrote:Man, the Emperor was just setting this whole heresy up to blow and wasn't realizing it...

Or that's what they want you to think.

It's also worth remembering, when thinking of Angron, that he is one of the few Primarchs who was subjugated on his "home world". Most Primarchs matured on their home worlds and rapidly assumed a position of dominance and leadership. Even Mortarion, who had to fight against the mysterious rulers of his planet, was actually able to beat them. Angron was captured and enslaved. Even his slave rebellion wasn't actually successful, as the Emperor removed him before the battle.

So, you have a Primarch who was beaten and enslaved, and who also had his brain operated upon by his captors. In addition, he forms a warrior society among the slaves, and is then forced to abandon his "people" at the moment of their greatest need, by his own father.

For someone as powerful as a Primarch, this sure would make one feel powerless. And what exactly happens when the powerless are trodden down? They get angry. I thought it was very neatly done that one of the most clearly "powerful" of primarchs, and certainly the one who most epitomizes physical power (especially now), is the one who is most physically dominated (enslaved, operated upon) originally.

Also, like Curze, Angron may have been perceptive enough to see the irony of his situation. He is on the verge of escaping from slavery and striking out against those who have enslaved him, when his free will is taken away by ANOTHER entity more powerful than himself. All of his work, and all of the sacrifice that his followers made, is rendered pointless. In fact, all of his efforts have attracted the attention of the Emperor, who is, effectively, just another enslaver.

Plus, it also created an interesting situation where the World Eaters legion was formed before being reunited with their Primarch. Instead of meeting a semi-divine hero, these respected warrior-marines find an enraged, brain-damaged monster. What does that do to your morale?

That's the depth I missed in him, thank you very much.

Yeah, Angron may have been the only Primarch to hate The Emperor right from the get go.

Angron is the best.

Meaningless violence and total destruction FTW

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:

Lexx wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:If I recall correctly, the short story; After Desh'ea in the Horus Heresy novel Tales of Heresy. Makes it sound like not only does Angron have a severe anger issue do to his up bringing, the bezerker implants and the way the Emperor just teleported him out of his last stand. But he also seems to have severe survivors guilt due to all of his fellow Slave-Warriors being slaughtered by the Army the were standing up against while he got to live.

Oh yeah, that's right.

It was the eve of the great battle when he got taken away. Good call.

Sounds a lot less dull and two dimensional than the OP made out.

The Big E lied to him, gave him a choice to stay or teleport out. Angron choose to stay and fight and most like die. The Emperor let him go, then teleported him back anyway. That fueled his mistrust, big time. IMHO

Couldnt the Emperor have just landed his whole army to kick the ass of the slave owners? he could have let Angron keep his promise (to stay and fight) that way.
Angron is more than just HULK SMASH, but he hasnt had much of a chance to be fleshed out in the HH series. That was a hell of a grim moment at the end of the short story when he ushered the rest of the (newly named) World Eaters down into the darkness with him.

Yeah I never really understood that part of the fluff. It seems the emperor, for how great of a leader he was, should have realized that simply taking Angron away would be very damaging to him. Fighting alongside Angron seems like it would have been a better way to gain his trust.

There was a Galactic crusade going on. From The Emperor's point of view it was a choice between uniting all of humanity throughout the Galaxy or commiting troops to some slave revolt.

Well, that's a great deal more depth than I think nayone was expecting.
But yes, his fluff generally implies a mixture of survivor's guilt, induced psychopathy and hatred of what he saw as yet more betrayal to be the driving force behind his actions.

All of The Primarchs had fascinating childhoods. Problem is they just don't go into it in the HH books because they figure everyone knows that stuff already but as The Dakka has shown that is simply not true.

Of all the traitor primarchs Angron is one of the most interesting character. He has a genuine reason to hate the Emperor. The anger is just the way he deals with his emotions. He fought hard to save the people he saw as family and then a guy turns up and claims to be his father. Instead of helping his son he tries to persuade him to abandon his people at the point when they needed and give up the goal he had spent his life working towards. The Emperor claims to be good (and he only want s to save his son) but in Angron's eyes he could have sent down his SM on angrons side and he would have saved Angron and his people. When Angron chooses his people over the emperor he over rules him and lets the slaves get destroyed. From Angrons perspective a random guy who claimed to be his dad just turns up and destroys everything Angron cares about.

After that he throws Angron back into war which is what angron spent his whole life trying to escape.

Lets not forget Angron choose to keep the anger implants in his brain. He's still a bit of a tool. I think the Emperor's greatest mistake was leaving those in.

Anyways, there's a lot of "what if" talk surrounding the Heresy. What if Horus had done this, what if lorgar hadn't done that and so on.
However I think Angron and World Eaters would have had to have been put down no matter what at some point. Every year another tale of horrible atrocitied would be attributed to the WE. War with them was inevitable.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Lets not forget Angron choose to keep the anger implants in his brain. He's still a bit of a tool. I think the Emperor's greatest mistake was leaving those in.

Anyways, there's a lot of "what if" talk surrounding the Heresy. What if Horus had done this, what if lorgar hadn't done that and so on.
However I think Angron and World Eaters would have had to have been put down no matter what at some point. Every year another tale of horrible atrocitied would be attributed to the WE. War with them was inevitable.

As with a lot of the traitor legions the rot seems to have set in before the emperor had even reunited with most of them.

Mr Nobody wrote:After reading the horus heresy novels and reading some discussions on the primarchs, I've learnt that Angron is quite dull... and angry. So I was wondering if there is any way of making Angron a little deeper, or at least giving him a better reason to be berserk. I would like to hear your thoughts.

Imagine Angron was this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOWZpu8vS0c&feature=related

Now, if only Angron had a kid and a cross that could hold him.

Mr Nobody wrote:Now, if only Angron had a kid and a cross that could hold him.

LOLZ

mortisrex wrote:

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:

Lexx wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:If I recall correctly, the short story; After Desh'ea in the Horus Heresy novel Tales of Heresy. Makes it sound like not only does Angron have a severe anger issue do to his up bringing, the bezerker implants and the way the Emperor just teleported him out of his last stand. But he also seems to have severe survivors guilt due to all of his fellow Slave-Warriors being slaughtered by the Army the were standing up against while he got to live.

Oh yeah, that's right.

It was the eve of the great battle when he got taken away. Good call.

Sounds a lot less dull and two dimensional than the OP made out.

The Big E lied to him, gave him a choice to stay or teleport out. Angron choose to stay and fight and most like die. The Emperor let him go, then teleported him back anyway. That fueled his mistrust, big time. IMHO

Couldnt the Emperor have just landed his whole army to kick the ass of the slave owners? he could have let Angron keep his promise (to stay and fight) that way.
Angron is more than just HULK SMASH, but he hasnt had much of a chance to be fleshed out in the HH series. That was a hell of a grim moment at the end of the short story when he ushered the rest of the (newly named) World Eaters down into the darkness with him.

Yeah I never really understood that part of the fluff. It seems the emperor, for how great of a leader he was, should have realized that simply taking Angron away would be very damaging to him. Fighting alongside Angron seems like it would have been a better way to gain his trust.

He had already lost 2 Primarchs, I don't think he would want to lose another one no matter how nuts and Angry he was.

I don't think the Emperor was very happy that Angron killed some of his Custodes either and that Angron had basically said get lost.

So teleporting him away was a better choice? not only that but then leaving immediately.
the emperor didnt hang around to explain things. he just put angron in the ship with his legion and left.
What a guy.
Heck. Leman Russ punched the emperor then they sat down and laughed about it.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:So teleporting him away was a better choice? not only that but then leaving immediately.
the emperor didnt hang around to explain things. he just put angron in the ship with his legion and left.
What a guy.

I just think that the Emperor was reeeally annoyed at how Angron had behaved, the saviour of mankind being told to get bent. He could have handled the whole situation much better than he did.

It would have been better, in my opinion, if he had helped Angron defeat the High Riders and showed him how much of a warrior he actually was. I guess from Angrons point of view all he did was prove that he was a bit of a coward and let others do the dirty work

ChaosGalvatron wrote:Heck. Leman Russ punched the emperor then they sat down and laughed about it.

Yeah, but this was all in good sport and there was much mead and merryment had by one and all

Wasn't it the other way around though, didn't the Emperor pimp slap Russ?

Pilau Rice wrote:
I just think that the Emperor was reeeally annoyed at how Angron had behaved, the saviour of mankind being told to get bent. He could have handled the whole situation much better than he did.

It would have been better, in my opinion, if he had helped Angron defeat the High Riders and showed him how much of a warrior he actually was. I guess from Angrons point of view all he did was prove that he was a bit of a coward and let others do the dirty work

Pretty sure i said this already. that the emperor should have stayed and helped angron.
Maybe he was disappointed since it seems that angron was the only primarch who wasnt a leader?

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
I just think that the Emperor was reeeally annoyed at how Angron had behaved, the saviour of mankind being told to get bent. He could have handled the whole situation much better than he did.

It would have been better, in my opinion, if he had helped Angron defeat the High Riders and showed him how much of a warrior he actually was. I guess from Angrons point of view all he did was prove that he was a bit of a coward and let others do the dirty work

Pretty sure i said this already. that the emperor should have stayed and helped angron.
Maybe he was disappointed since it seems that angron was the only primarch who wasnt a leader?

You did indeed, but it's also what I think. The Emperor helped other Primarchs in this way why not Angron?

I dunno, he seemed to do a good enough job at leading the pit slaves in a rebellion against their masters. I just think that he really ballsed up with Angron. Everything Angron did when he took over the War Hounds seems to be two fingers up to the Emperor, the implants, the savagery. The Emperor had to censure him a number of times, when Horus got made Warmaster Angron objected just to make life more difficult.

Pilau Rice wrote:

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
I just think that the Emperor was reeeally annoyed at how Angron had behaved, the saviour of mankind being told to get bent. He could have handled the whole situation much better than he did.

It would have been better, in my opinion, if he had helped Angron defeat the High Riders and showed him how much of a warrior he actually was. I guess from Angrons point of view all he did was prove that he was a bit of a coward and let others do the dirty work

Pretty sure i said this already. that the emperor should have stayed and helped angron.
Maybe he was disappointed since it seems that angron was the only primarch who wasnt a leader?

You did indeed, but it's also what I think. The Emperor helped other Primarchs in this way why not Angron?

I dunno, he seemed to do a good enough job at leading the pit slaves in a rebellion against their masters. I just think that he really ballsed up with Angron. Everything Angron did when he took over the War Hounds seems to be two fingers up to the Emperor, the implants, the savagery. The Emperor had to censure him a number of times, when Horus got made Warmaster Angron objected just to make life more difficult.

You would think the emperor could just drop with his fleet kill everything and say "hey son. those implants arent good for you. lets get them out of your head even though i dont understand how that is even possible considering you are a primarch and so far beyond this that it hardly makes sense".
Pretty much the worst choice the Emperor could have made was to teleport Angron away. The Emperor could have teleported the war hounds down to the world to fight with their progenitor. "these are your children. they will fight for you. and you will fight for me. and we will avenge your brothers."

@ Da Butcha

Good answer

I'm sure angron will be fleshed out more later, I mean lets face it the HH series isn't going to finish anytime soon.

I have to agree with Formosa background wise i'd like to see more about Roboute. They'll probably, well i hope they will, bring out another big ass book at some point as a companion to the series going in to the details that were missed from the series such as a lot of the pre heresey background I know I crave.

As for the emperor saving Angron friends and generally being a jerk, in my opinion it all adds to the original idea of the imperial truth. He's not a god he's a man, a hugely powerful man but a man none the less and men make mistakes. The emperor isn't going to be winning any parent of the year contest but his flaws play into the grimdarkness of the 41st Millenium, there is no clear line good or evil. Even the greatest human to ever live can still be a

ChaosGalvatron wrote:
You would think the emperor could just drop with his fleet kill everything and say "hey son. those implants arent good for you. lets get them out of your head even though i dont understand how that is even possible considering you are a primarch and so far beyond this that it hardly makes sense".
Pretty much the worst choice the Emperor could have made was to teleport Angron away. The Emperor could have teleported the war hounds down to the world to fight with their progenitor. "these are your children. they will fight for you. and you will fight for me. and we will avenge your brothers."

You would have thought so wouldn't you

As for the teleporting him away we don't know what the situation was in the greater crusade. From our point of view The Crusade went all peachey but in those times it was furious carnage the conclusion of which balanced on a knife edge at times.

Sample scenario would be The Imperium is losing hundrends of worlds to Orks at the time Angron is leading his slave revolt and The World Eaters are the only Legion in position to turn the tide of battle. From The Emperor's POV this is relativey unimportant compared to the fate of the Entire crusade.

Then the Emperor hasn't got any idea how to deal with people. Sure fighting the orks is more important than freeing one planet but keeping one of your sons (who also happens to be a super human killing machine) is more important than both. When you want someones help you don't abduct them when they say they are too busy at the moment, even if you are the Emperor.

Anybody know what number Angron was recruited by The Emperor? ie Horus was first, Alpharius was last.

SpankHammer III wrote:
As for the emperor saving Angron friends and generally being a jerk, in my opinion it all adds to the original idea of the imperial truth. He's not a god he's a man, a hugely powerful man but a man none the less and men make mistakes. The emperor isn't going to be winning any parent of the year contest but his flaws play into the grimdarkness of the 41st Millenium, there is no clear line good or evil. Even the greatest human to ever live can still be a

I think you have it here. That's something I don't always remember. The Emperor isn't infallible, and he never claimed to be.

I may be making this up entirely, so noone go believing what I'm about to type without someone else verifying it!

I thought it mentioned that The Emperor found something very well, 'wrong' with Angrons army on the planet so it wasn't just him being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk but something along the lines of. "No, Angron these people were not your brothers, they're 'wrong' (eg perhaps already entirely in the throes of Khorne) and these are your true brothers and followers."

4M2A wrote:Then the Emperor hasn't got any idea how to deal with people.

I'm getting that quite strongly from the HH books. His treatment of Magnus and, especially, Lorgar hasn't exactly been textbook man-management.

I guess the emperor was a good leader, but a horrible father figure.

ToBeWilly wrote:

SpankHammer III wrote:
As for the emperor saving Angron friends and generally being a jerk, in my opinion it all adds to the original idea of the imperial truth. He's not a god he's a man, a hugely powerful man but a man none the less and men make mistakes. The emperor isn't going to be winning any parent of the year contest but his flaws play into the grimdarkness of the 41st Millenium, there is no clear line good or evil. Even the greatest human to ever live can still be a

I think you have it here. That's something I don't always remember. The Emperor isn't infallible, and he never claimed to be.

Sure he is just a man, but he consistently made mistakes during the HH that pushed certain of his sons towards Chaos.
He reminds me of what i have been told about Philippe Petit, the french guy who walked a tightrope across the Twin Towers. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/948453/man_on_wire_review_pg2.html?cat=40

It seems the only people in his life were those willing to be focused on Philippe Petit's dream; willing to take the risk of crime with him or to follow his wishes explicitly. His girlfriend at the time, Annie Allix, said she felt her dreams were unimportant to him, that only his mattered.

This guy was so focused that he often ignored the people around him and even moved house without telling his girlfriend.

This seems a bit like the emperor. A guy who is so focused that he ignores people, doesnt interact properly with people and cant understand emotions anymore since he's locked his own away.

In reference to all of the people deriding the Emperor for being a jerk, or a poor manager, or a poor judge of people:

I think that a lot of decisions, when you look at them from the perspective of the Emperor, make a bit more sense.

Here's a guy who has lived thousands of years, if not longer. He's concerned not with protecting a particular group of people, or world of people, or even solar system of people, but with ensuring the survival of humanity itself. Saving a few million, or billion, people on ONE planet may simply just not register on the same scale to him. In addition, I think that he expects his 'sons' to learn to share that same perspective. They simply can't get caught up in the fate of one group of people, or take their assignments personally, or harbor personal grudges, when the fate of humanity itself is at stake.

On the other hand, he is pretty clearly wrong on this point. They DO harbor personal grudges, personal ambitions, and local sympathies. It might have been better, all things considered, for the Primarchs to have never been found in the first place.

Still, though, I think that it's wrong (or at least misplaced) to judge him as a douche or a jerk. When your decisions affect countless billions of souls, and affect the course of history itself, a lot of impersonal, calculating decisions are going to be made. Slaying a billion people would be an unspeakable act on Earth, but if you did it in the Imperium to save hundreds of billions more, it would probably make a lot more sense.

Da Butcha wrote:

Doing some poking around on the Emperor you start to get the idea that he is only a man, one apart from all others admittedly, but still a man.

He has to keep a whole Imperium happy, especially his sons, without them his hope of uniting the galaxy and reuniting mankind would crumble.

People are in uproar when the World Eaters wipe out a whole population in the Ghenna Scouring. He has to censure Angron as some of his brothers have warned of his blood thirsty ways.

Magnus is censured at Nikea after Mortarion, Leman Russ and others have cried out about the use of sorcery, making the Emperor step in.

Lorgar is reprimanded for not doing enough with the greatest legion and worshipping the Emperor as a god. Why was Guilliman the only Primarch present?

He is trying to be a father, a heavy handed one and very wrong at times. But he thinks it's the best way. Afterall the Primarchs are supposed to be the best of men, but like himself, they share his flaws.

Sure he is just a man, but he consistently made mistakes during the HH that pushed certain of his sons towards Chaos.

I think his sons have to take some responsibility here. I mean none of them really deal with their reprimands well. Lorgar basically has a hissy fit and Magnus pretty much flat out ignores nikea they act more like children than leaders of a legion.

Angron has the best excuse because at least he's mentally defective thanks to his implants. Also what about the others, corect me if I'm wrong here, fulgrims defection has nothing to do with the emperor, horus is lauded by the emperor and made warmaster, nightstalker can't deal with the lack of zero tolerance. They turn because of their flaws not because of the emperor or his vision.

Again it just shows that the primarchs and emperor are flawed individuals. You can moan as much as you like about the emperor "he should have told them about chaos" " should have doen this" "he shouldn't have done that" but when push comes to shove in my book they sould have done what they were ing well told and believed in their fathers vision. Their menat to be the ultimate soldiers and the first duty of a soldier is follow orders.

SpankHammer III wrote: shove in my book they sould have done what they were ing well told and believed in their fathers vision.

This is one of the reasons that I am having a hard time with sympathising with the traitor Primarchs in the Horus Heresy series. In the old fluff on this, it was set up that they believed that Horus would be a better leader for humanity and that mankind would be better off with an active leader like Horus.

The focus in the novel seems to be more about personal gain and war and they've forgotten this main fact. It was Horus wanting to lead mankind to a better way of life and he got drowned out by Chaos on the way.

I do love the series though and there are some gems. I guess it's like the Marvel Universe where there are different timelines and versions, I guess the warp did it

Yeah its unfortunate that the history isn't consistent, then again what history is , I bought the big Horus Heresey book when the first couple of books in the HH series came out and was suprised when they didn't tie in that well. That why i'm hoping they'll new one to accompany the series.

SpankHammer III wrote:Yeah its unfortunate that the history isn't consistent, then again what history is , I bought the big Horus Heresey book when the first couple of books in the HH series came out and was suprised when they didn't tie in that well. That why i'm hoping they'll new one to accompany the series.

Do you mean Collected Visions? I have that and I think it's excellent, it's in a way why I am a little surprised at some of Horus Heresy novels going down different paths. Visions sticks with the notion that Horus was doing what he was for the benefit of mankind and clearly loses this intention towards the end.

Yup that the one, haven't taken it off the shelf in awhile, however I remember being surprised about how much the HH books seemed to deviate from it. I suppose it was bound to happen though given the number of authors involved in the HH series.

SpankHammer III wrote:

Sure he is just a man, but he consistently made mistakes during the HH that pushed certain of his sons towards Chaos.

I think his sons have to take some responsibility here. I mean none of them really deal with their reprimands well. Lorgar basically has a hissy fit and Magnus pretty much flat out ignores nikea they act more like children than leaders of a legion.

Angron has the best excuse because at least he's mentally defective thanks to his implants. Also what about the others, corect me if I'm wrong here, fulgrims defection has nothing to do with the emperor, horus is lauded by the emperor and made warmaster, nightstalker can't deal with the lack of zero tolerance. They turn because of their flaws not because of the emperor or his vision.

Again it just shows that the primarchs and emperor are flawed individuals. You can moan as much as you like about the emperor "he should have told them about chaos" " should have doen this" "he shouldn't have done that" but when push comes to shove in my book they sould have done what they were ing well told and believed in their fathers vision. Their menat to be the ultimate soldiers and the first duty of a soldier is follow orders.

exactly. The Emperor could have done some things differently but in the end his sons had to become total douchebags on their own.

The basic problems (as you can see in my sig) is names. Some of the Primarch names are brilliant, some are obscure puns and some...

I mean Angron? Would we take Magnus the Red seriously if his name was Trixy or Sir Spellsalot? The only one who came out worse was Alpharus where it's pretty obvious they had no idea what to do with him.

Could he be made interesting? Sure. Marvel Comics have kept the Hulk going to 50 years, I'd imagine someone somewhere is finding him interesting. But then again Hulk has the Bruce Banner/Jeckle & Hyde thing going on. And even Hulk is a better name than Angron.

Face facts his name is Angron the Angry, he's a 15' tall raging volcano of volcanic rage and that's all there is.

I didn't notice that about the bunny rabbits.....However I'd like to see preview of codex: Alpharius. Pretty sure Alpharius is not as bad Angron.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I didn't notice that about the bunny rabbits.....However I'd like to see preview of codex: Alpharius. Pretty sure Alpharius is not as bad Angron.

As a name it is. Alphie the Alpha Legionnaire? It sounds like a D&D characters someone would make when they're 10 years old.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I didn't notice that about the bunny rabbits.....However I'd like to see preview of codex: Alpharius. Pretty sure Alpharius is not as bad Angron.

As a name it is. Alphie the Alpha Legionnaire? It sounds like a D&D characters someone would make when they're 10 years old.

This is really OT, but I must say, your signatures are awesome. Do you make them?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I didn't notice that about the bunny rabbits.....However I'd like to see preview of codex: Alpharius. Pretty sure Alpharius is not as bad Angron.

As a name it is. Alphie the Alpha Legionnaire? It sounds like a D&D characters someone would make when they're 10 years old.

I think its supposed to be that The Alpha Legion is named after Alpharius not the other way around.

So would Omegon have an Omega unit, he lead a specialist team, right?

Mr Nobody wrote:So would Omegon have an Omega unit, he lead a specialist team, right?

Yes.
no.
MAYBE.

Why did the Emperor take on an obvious psychopath with known anger issues who used to kill humans for sport? Does this strike anyone else as an 'oops' moment?

The worse thing you can do with someone with issues of violence is throw him into more violence.

"Hey Angron, you know on Fehdren-Mhor you did some pretty awful stuff right? Howsabout you do the same thing, but for me?"

Klawz wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:So would Omegon have an Omega unit, he lead a specialist team, right?

Yes.
no.
MAYBE.

what he said.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anybody know what number Angron was recruited by The Emperor? ie Horus was first, Alpharius was last.

I dont remember, but I think in "Tales of Heresy", in the story of how the Warhounds found their primarch. Kharne was thinkning about how much the other legions had changed when they found their primarchs, they fought with purpose and stuff. I think he lists a few of the other legions that found their primarchs before them. I think they had found Dorn because they talked about subjugating the planet full of worms, and how somebody used machinery to build defences on a tiny strip of land. Only one I know who builds great defences is Dorn...

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anybody know what number Angron was recruited by The Emperor? ie Horus was first, Alpharius was last.

I dont remember, but I think in "Tales of Heresy", in the story of how the Warhounds found their primarch. Kharne was thinkning about how much the other legions had changed when they found their primarchs, they fought with purpose and stuff. I think he lists a few of the other legions that found their primarchs before them. I think they had found Dorn because they talked about subjugating the planet full of worms, and how somebody used machinery to build defences on a tiny strip of land. Only one I know who builds great defences is Dorn...

you saying perturabo and the IW dont build great defenses? or did you just forget about em?

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anybody know what number Angron was recruited by The Emperor? ie Horus was first, Alpharius was last.

I dont remember, but I think in "Tales of Heresy", in the story of how the Warhounds found their primarch. Kharne was thinkning about how much the other legions had changed when they found their primarchs, they fought with purpose and stuff. I think he lists a few of the other legions that found their primarchs before them. I think they had found Dorn because they talked about subjugating the planet full of worms, and how somebody used machinery to build defences on a tiny strip of land. Only one I know who builds great defences is Dorn...

you saying perturabo and the IW dont build great defenses? or did you just forget about em?

JEJE maybe IW are really good building defences, but face it, their best issue is the defences destruction .......Terra ejem ejem....

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anybody know what number Angron was recruited by The Emperor? ie Horus was first, Alpharius was last.

I dont remember, but I think in "Tales of Heresy", in the story of how the Warhounds found their primarch. Kharne was thinkning about how much the other legions had changed when they found their primarchs, they fought with purpose and stuff. I think he lists a few of the other legions that found their primarchs before them. I think they had found Dorn because they talked about subjugating the planet full of worms, and how somebody used machinery to build defences on a tiny strip of land. Only one I know who builds great defences is Dorn...

you saying perturabo and the IW dont build great defenses? or did you just forget about em?

They don't build great defenses they smash them.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anybody know what number Angron was recruited by The Emperor? ie Horus was first, Alpharius was last.

I dont remember, but I think in "Tales of Heresy", in the story of how the Warhounds found their primarch. Kharne was thinkning about how much the other legions had changed when they found their primarchs, they fought with purpose and stuff. I think he lists a few of the other legions that found their primarchs before them. I think they had found Dorn because they talked about subjugating the planet full of worms, and how somebody used machinery to build defences on a tiny strip of land. Only one I know who builds great defences is Dorn...

you saying perturabo and the IW dont build great defenses? or did you just forget about em?

They don't build great defenses they smash them.

Which is a bit ironic if you think about it. The IW rule a series of Fortress worlds.

Klawz wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anybody know what number Angron was recruited by The Emperor? ie Horus was first, Alpharius was last.

I dont remember, but I think in "Tales of Heresy", in the story of how the Warhounds found their primarch. Kharne was thinkning about how much the other legions had changed when they found their primarchs, they fought with purpose and stuff. I think he lists a few of the other legions that found their primarchs before them. I think they had found Dorn because they talked about subjugating the planet full of worms, and how somebody used machinery to build defences on a tiny strip of land. Only one I know who builds great defences is Dorn...

you saying perturabo and the IW dont build great defenses? or did you just forget about em?

They don't build great defenses they smash them.

Which is a bit ironic if you think about it. The IW rule a series of Fortress worlds.

I suppose that is the indirect consequence... i mean... well when your life is destroy fortress after fortress sooner or later you'll realize what are better build, what are hard to reach, where can it have weak spots etc etc... you are learning all this facts while you destroy it, siege is nearly a science for itself

No I don't think it was perturabo. Primarch's name was rather short...

When I look at the times the Emperor really pushed some of the primarchs away, is when he wasn't being a father.

Honestly, no matter how they tried to turn it around, reprimanding Magnus and Lorgar was not a father son thing. It was an Emperor reprimanding a General. He was not their father, they never really had a father. Yes, he could pretend, and mabye even believe he was, but the Primarchs were tools created to lead weapons.

I think it was just a matter of time. The relation that Emperor tried to have with the Primarchs could never have lasted. Given enough time the wanna-be father/must-be leader frictions could have even pushed Russ or the Lion over the edge. It just so happened that Horus and the others had shorter fuses, and Angron's was lit from the word go.

AspireToGlory wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I didn't notice that about the bunny rabbits.....However I'd like to see preview of codex: Alpharius. Pretty sure Alpharius is not as bad Angron.

As a name it is. Alphie the Alpha Legionnaire? It sounds like a D&D characters someone would make when they're 10 years old.

This is really OT, but I must say, your signatures are awesome. Do you make them?

Thanks, yeah they're mine, I did most of them a while ago but just restarted with all this high tech MS paint stuff.