Hullo Dakka,

I'm here to talk about a matter very close to my heart, that of chief librarian Mephiston of the Blood Angels chapter. Everywhere I go, I hear cries of "Meph is complete crap!" and "He's way overcosted lol" and also "He's just a noobslayer, a pr0 player like me knows how to neutralise him"

Yet I ask you now, is Mephiston really as bad as people say? Is he really terribly overcosted?

Lets look at a hive tyrant. For about 300pts, you can get a flying MC with 5 attacks on the charge at str6, rerolling hits, and having 4 wounds with a 2+ save at t6, and unreliable psychic defense (SITW).

Same thing with a daemon prince. For a little over 200pts, you can have a monstrous creature, with 4 wounds, a 3+ save, and t6, AND a 5+ invul (which both meph and the tyrant lack) On the charge, you prince hits 5 times at str6, rerolling hits and wounds.

Then lets look at mephiston. For 250pts, you get an INFANTRY model, who gets cover saves from having his left toe in cover, has 6 attacks on the charge at str 6, a jump pack, fleet, rerolls hits and has potential str 10, AND has FIVE wounds with a 2+ save at t6, and a psychic hood.

What it really boils down to is that Meph IS in fact a hive tyrant, on an infantry base, who costs less than his namesake. He has a potential 24" charge range, possible str10, brings psy defense, and is really easy to hide behind anything really a tiny wall will give him cover, and a rhino will obscure him entirely. Sure, he will die to concentrated ap fire. But what if you cant see him? Uh-oh. If he manages to contact one of your ragular infantry units, guess what happens? They die. What happens when he contacts one of your vehicles? It dies. What happens when he contacts THSS, a TWC unit full of SS, or any good invul save deathstar? He dies. The trick is NOT to end up in combat with such units, which an experienced player can do most of the time.

When you play meph how he is played best, jumping out from behind cover and slaughtering an infantry unit, before jumping to another unit 24" away, you will see what he is capable of. DONT attack units with good invuls/lots of PF's. You WILL die, for no gain whatsoever. Meph is best bullying those infantry units and fire support that the rest of your army has trouble getting to. Sure, psy defense shuts him down pretty effectively, but he is still no slouch in combat. If your opponent didnt bring psy defense... oh golly, this match will be fun

Anyways, DakkaDakka, discuss. Is he really any good? Or does he belong in the "crap" pile, to hang out with death company tycho?

besides being a little low on the point side for what you get from him... no, i think he's just fine to use.
and no, i don't play the twilight marines. so i'm not saying this with any bias.
i have respect for them, as should anyone. i just know that killing him is a damn smart move ASAP, then moving on to the rest of his assuridly smaller army compared to yours.
he's tough, no doubt, but kill him with enough firepower, or close combats of your chosing, and it'll all work out.

I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

Jabbdo wrote:

Lets look at a hive tyrant. For about 300pts, you can get a flying MC with 5 attacks on the charge at str6, rerolling hits, and having 4 wounds with a 2+ save at t6, and unreliable psychic defense (SITW).

Just to clarify, a tyrant cannot have wings and a 2+ save. He has to choose one or the other. Also a Hive Tyrant can hide inside a unit of guard, and even attach a prime so he is much less likely to die. Also the tyrant can take a number of abilities that effect the entire army such as hive commander, or give friendlies within 6' attack rerolls.

I worry less about Mephiston since it is so easy to shoot him dead if he shows his face outside of cover. Hive Tryants with Guard can be pretty nasty. They take forever to be killed even with all the AP1 fire I can put out from WH army. I just have to get close to do it.

Jayden63 wrote:I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

Why have a stat system that goes up to 10 if you're not going to use all the options.

You should check some of the stat lines for critters back in the old Rogue Trader book. You know, like when a character could have 10 Jokaero Digital Weapons, each of which mimicked a pistol type weapon, and all of which could be fired in the same round. Oh, and they could have a heavy weapon, power armor, and one of a variety of defensive fields.

I have a big list of things to beat him with. Just use high range weapons because he doesnt have that advantage.
Lascannon
Defiler
Landraider
Oblits
Dreadnought
and so many more if you have a dreadnought or 2 you could put drop pods with dreads fire then move into CC. I have basically killed 5 mephistons with it!

Saldiven wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

Why have a stat system that goes up to 10 if you're not going to use all the options.

You should check some of the stat lines for critters back in the old Rogue Trader book. You know, like when a character could have 10 Jokaero Digital Weapons, each of which mimicked a pistol type weapon, and all of which could be fired in the same round. Oh, and they could have a heavy weapon, power armor, and one of a variety of defensive fields.

Thank god we don't play those rules anymore. Memphy just is wrong on so many levels in todays gaming rule set. He just should not exist how currently is.

I think, that although the whole T6 thing is kinda wierd, That may be the reason behind no-invul- He can't be ID'd. That and libbies don't have invuls.
way to deal with mephiston? GK grand master. Hit him and he goes pop. NFW'd.

Is he really any good?

You know the answer yourself and you've explained everyone all the reasons why he is the best HQ choice available to the BA and one of the best HQ choices all around. You forgot only one thing that I noticed, and that's the fact that he fills a mandatory HQ slot otherwise filled by 100 points of dead air. All of the so-called 'counters' to Mephiston are totally generic strategies that work against every single model in the game. Mephiston isn't in any way fragile for his points cost as long as he has a cover save (which is ridiculously easy to get for a small infantry model) and possibly even FNP from a nearby Corbulo/Priest. If he dies to shooting despite having all those things you can rest assured that the same amount of firepower could've alternatively flattened five of your tanks. You get the idea. The only time Mephiston should not be used is when named characters aren't allowed, and in that case you should play Space Wolves not Blood Angels.

The only thing I don't understand is why you're looking for validation here when the answer is quite obvious. You need to be a bit more confident in your abilities to identify a good unit choice

Therion wrote:

Is he really any good?

You know the answer yourself and you've explained everyone all the reasons why he is the best HQ choice available to the BA and one of the best HQ choices all around. You forgot only one thing that I noticed, and that's the fact that he fills a mandatory HQ slot otherwise filled by 100 points of dead air. All of the so-called 'counters' to Mephiston are totally generic strategies that work against every single model in the game. Mephiston isn't in any way fragile for his points cost as long as he has a cover save (which is ridiculously easy to get for a small infantry model) and possibly even FNP from a nearby Corbulo/Priest. If he dies to shooting despite having all those things you can rest assured that the same amount of firepower could've alternatively flattened five of your tanks. You get the idea. The only time Mephiston should not be used is when named characters aren't allowed, and in that case you should play Space Wolves not Blood Angels.

The only thing I don't understand is why you're looking for validation here when the answer is quite obvious. You need to be a bit more confident in your abilities to identify a good unit choice

Mephiston is great, just sometimes you want to take 2 librarians or 1 in a lower points game. 2 librarians with sanguinary sheild giving cover saves to your army including vehicles is especially amazing in a mech list

I think he is neither broken nor terrible. I have always killed him pretty easily with shooting prior to his getting into CC or immediately after he eats a squad. I rarely worry when I see him across from my Space Wolves or Salamanders.

I think the ability to hide a T6 4W flying character with umpteen awesome attacks behind a rhino is a bit broken. Just my two cents.

shrike wrote:I think, that although the whole T6 thing is kinda wierd, That may be the reason behind no-invul- He can't be ID'd. That and libbies don't have invuls.
way to deal with mephiston? GK grand master. Hit him and he goes pop. NFW'd.

He can be ID'd. You don't need the NFW to do it, a normal force weapon will do it just as well. the problem is of course that your force weapon carrier will be a bloody smear because of all the S10 attacks that hit before him. High invulnerable save units, tough ID units (swarmlord), large amount of poison weapons, wytches (because he will take forever killing them and will take 1-2 wounds each turn) and AP1-2 weaponry will do the trick. Against tau, Mephiston died in turn 2 as after having punched through a crisis unit he was left in the open, ready for a ton of plasma and railguns. Another game he died to rapidfiring DE warriors followed by shadowfield arcon + incubi combat.

He is a great unit though, no question about it. The problem people have with him seem to go the other way, with cries of cheese

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I think the ability to hide a T6 4W flying character with umpteen awesome attacks behind a rhino is a bit broken.

Then consider that Mephi is actually 5W.

He is good, and I see him fielded regularly.
But he is expensive and I see him die regularly too.

I think the hate has more to do with things like Cassius being upstaged as the "toughest marine", Ahriman being upstaged as the psykic ability spammer, etc.

/shrug

I think the hate has more to do with things like Cassius being upstaged as the "toughest marine"

Aww come on give Mephiston a break! He's not really a Marine afterall. He's an emo Space Vampire, and we all know Space Vampires have to be tough so they can beat the crap out of the rival Space Werewolves.

He usually makes up his points, but out of combat or against MCs, he is pretty absurdly easy to kill. Just like most librarians.
All in all, I generally field him because he's a good SC choice and draws a lot of fire away from my other units... Leaving my reclusiarch led assault squad to mop up everything else

In my own defense, Therion, I was repeating things I have heard.

My version of that would have been "That little thing is as tough carnifex?!?--AND a better armor save?! At least the 'fex has 4 wounds- - -VERY NO!!!!"

I didn't read all the replies, so don't totally vilify me:

I am in-between on him. I absolutely hate what they've done with his fluff (they basically are now insinuating that he is a daemon prince in disguise, or at least in league with one) and his statline seems counter-intuitive. Here you have this super important librarian... a leader of the chapter... and he doesn't even get so much as an invulnerable save? Sure, he can grab cover, but you can't put him with a unit to soak up shots, and in CC he gets no protection whatsoever. A 2+ save can be defeated by any guardsman with a powerweapon, which is ridiculous. Sure they are hard-up to wound him, but that's not the point. So here's my grief: He is a CC character that is only marginally effective in CC. Throw him into a melee with a equivalent-cost unit of terminators and he's likely to get smashed. In my last game, I thought he would be able to handle a squadron of sentinels easily enough in CC, right? Wrong. He got tied up for 3 turns, finally requiring a unit of thunderhammer-wielding terminators had to rescue him... he had 2 wounds left at this point. A couple of plasmagunner shots later from standard guardsmen, he was dead. All he did throughout the entire combat was damage the weapon systems because of bad rolling on psychic power tests.

All in all, he's either hit or miss. I don't take him if I don't have to.

He is definitely an awesome cc unit and typically well worth his points. I do think a lot of players have figured out how to effectively counter him now.

I'm here to talk about a matter very close to my heart, that of chief librarian Mephiston of the Blood Angels chapter. Everywhere I go, I hear cries of "Meph is complete crap!" and "He's way overcosted lol" and also "He's just a noobslayer, a pr0 player like me knows how to neutralise him"

Yet I ask you now, is Mephiston really as bad as people say? Is he really terribly overcosted?

the last two criticisms are basically fair. I dont know about utter crap but I'm just fundamentally opposed to paying that many points for a guy who doesnt have an invulnerable save. without it its almost impossible to go toe to toe with the best assault units in the game, so mephiston's role is effectively limited to slaying hordes of normal troopers. well there are alot of different ways to kill hordes of normal guys, you dont really need to shell out that many points just to have one more way to do it. For about the same points the sanguinor is what a real slayer looks like.

hes not overcosted, hes over powered. There isnt a single unit in the game he cant touch. He can beat down a C'tan or a swarmlord, he LAUGHS at baneblades and tyrannofexes.

There should never be a Unit with jump pack, strength 10, instant death, power weapon, t 6, and 5 wounds. to make matters worse, he will out do your assassins and banshees by being initiative 7.

Ridiculous.

You should not have to tailor an army to beat him. Sternguard are even crap against him coz he has a freaking 2+!

If he had even a 5+ inv save, I would refuse to play against him. Sure plasma torrenting is good as against him, but he swept a 20 man genestealer squad off the board last game we played with him! I have no idea how they didnt easily kill him, must have been the wound on a 5+ strike last 2+ armour save passingness.

Rant over.

Jaon wrote:hes not overcosted, hes over powered. There isnt a single unit in the game he cant touch. He can beat down a C'tan or a swarmlord, he LAUGHS at baneblades and tyrannofexes.

There should never be a Unit with jump pack, strength 10, instant death, power weapon, t 6, and 5 wounds. to make matters worse, he will out do your assassins and banshees by being initiative 7.

Ridiculous.

You should not have to tailor an army to beat him. Sternguard are even crap against him coz he has a freaking 2+!

If he had even a 5+ inv save, I would refuse to play against him. Sure plasma torrenting is good as against him, but he swept a 20 man genestealer squad off the board last game we played with him! I have no idea how they didnt easily kill him, must have been the wound on a 5+ strike last 2+ armour save passingness.

Rant over.

The only time I managed to kill Mephiston was the time he charged me with my assassin prime, killing him in one round of combat. He failed his psychic ability, and then my bonesword ID him because he was I1 and I wrecked him... Teach him to assault my warriors again!

Mephiston is very powerful, the only "weakness" he has which he can't go to toe to toe with any CC power house is not even really a weakness.

Like what AF said, mephy is good at bullying weaker units bec of lack of invul save, but people seem to forget that these "weaker" units are also troops. And we all know that its troops that win most obs games. Dont even get me started with kill point games.

When used by a pro, mephy has no tactical weakness. In short, the bastard is unassailable. There's almost no GOOD way to effectively stop him from doing what he is good at.

Mephy forces opponents to do desperate maneuvers especially when he is completely hidden from LOS. While significant resources are being used against mephy, the rest of the army is stomping ass.

with the correct amount of terrain on board, meaning significant los blocking, he is pretty nasty. I mean high strenght, fast with fleet, smaill model and high toughness and int

yuber wrote: people seem to forget that these "weaker" units are also troops. And we all know that its troops that win most obs games.

thats a really good point. I might run him next time I play Blood Angels, just on the strength of that argument. good insight

But you guys are failing to see that his S10 and Jump Pack abilities are far from a given: you still have a good chance of either missing the roll or rolling a Perils of the Warp. Also he can overheat his plasma pistol.

For 50 points more than the cost of a basic unit of terminators, you have a unit that has less attacks, less survivability and the chance to off as many wounds from himself as he has to damage enemy units. Don't let your biases cloud your judgement. He's good, but not "the uber" like everybody is painting him to be.

mephiston gets 100% of his offensive power even when he's down to 1 wound. a 5 man squad of terminators down to 1 wound only gets 20% of its offensive power. I think the situation is a little more complicated than you're suggesting.

Yes he does, but that offensive power is still half of that of an equivalently-sized thunderhammer/stormshield terminator squad, which even in the BA codex is 25 points cheaper, and can be killed far more quickly. A hive tyrant, another psyker, or anything else that causes instant death can kill him instantly. Even standard power weapons can bring him down quickly. Against armies that have little-to-no access to powerweapons, sure he can seem nigh unstoppable. But for his points cost, he does exactly as much as I'd expect from a model that costs as much as a land raider.

A question, are you a user of mephiston or just somebody who has been on the receiving end of his wrath? Those of us who have used him a lot are not that impressed, while those who have fought against him generally have a higher opinion for some reason.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

yuber wrote: people seem to forget that these "weaker" units are also troops. And we all know that its troops that win most obs games.

thats a really good point. I might run him next time I play Blood Angels, just on the strength of that argument. good insight

Go ahead, we expect more feedback from you =)

there's no doubt mephiston can't stand up to really hard core close assault units. but he's really good at killing troops and if you kill all your opponent's troops he can't win the game in an objective mission. the best he can do is draw. I agree he's underwhelming for his points cost if you want someone to go toe to toe with a wolf lord or hive tyrant or something like that. the sanguinor is a better choice for that. but for murdering infantry I dont think he has many competitors. its a question of what you want your model to do.

That, is the best summary of his abilities yet. As long as we can agree he is not the unit to end all units, then I am on board with what your saying.

Hes still subject to instant death too... get skulltaker into B2B with him and its GG

Zid wrote:Hes still subject to instant death too... get skulltaker into B2B with him and its GG

He is, but thanks to his mobility and outside factors, he is not very easy to catch.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:That, is the best summary of his abilities yet. As long as we can agree he is not the unit to end all units, then I am on board with what your saying.

we def. agree about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zid wrote:Hes still subject to instant death too... get skulltaker into B2B with him and its GG

there are a few things that can instant death him but not many.... alot of them he can instant death first, actually, because of his higher initiatve. a space marine librarian, for instance, has a pretty low chance of instant-deathing mephiston, since mephiston is faster.

Everytime Ive fought Mephiston its been with guard, wolves or orks and he has been facedown by turn two every time. I honestly think he isnt worth a damn

Chosen Praetorian wrote:Everytime Ive fought Mephiston its been with guard, wolves or orks and he has been facedown by turn two every time. I honestly think he isnt worth a damn

Can you tell us specifically, what happened? Or better yet, battle reports.

in both of those matches he's not really at his best, its definitely true. guard can shoot him to death, wolf lords can slay him. depends on how he's using him. he should be able to hide behind rhinos in the guard match up, or find some other way to stay in cover if not out of line of sight completely.

The trouble with him is all the counters that are listed he can just avoid. Or a BA player should be smart enough to destroy the one or two counters and then he reigns with impunity. Some of that is good playing, which shouldn't be confused with being over powered, but some of it is genuine overpower.

My biggest peeve is his size. He is super easy to hide which makes getting to him too difficult for how powerful he is. Other comparably powerful things, raiders, hive tyrants, demon princes, tricked out CC units, all have huge models or huge foot prints making bringing the right tool against them fairly easy. I know he can't be buried in a squad, but he doesn't need to be. He can hide behind a hill or a rhino for a turn or two until all the tools that can get him are gone. Then he is so fast and so powerful that in even half a game he will make up his cost. There really isn't anything else in the game that can do that.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:in both of those matches he's not really at his best, its definitely true. guard can shoot him to death, wolf lords can slay him. depends on how he's using him. he should be able to hide behind rhinos in the guard match up, or find some other way to stay in cover if not out of line of sight completely.

Yes it isnt, but that doesnt mean you put him out in the open to die by pinpricks =P

I wanna see him up against GK. they will NFW ID him

Jaon wrote: he will out do your assassins and banshees by being initiative 7.

Banshees have Banshee masks which specify that they strike at initiative 10 all the time.

Mephisto vs squad of banshees...

I vote banshees to be honest, especially if they have counter attack... but wait!!! toughness 6!!

Yep, over powered.

Besides... Ahriman is so much cooler.

shrike wrote:I wanna see him up against GK. they will NFW ID him

Show me any person holding a NFW who will survive to hit him

Don't forget that a Psyhood shuts him down a little more than half the time. If he's not jumping or S10-ing he's not nearly as impressive.

I've played with him and I've played against him and he ends up dead more often than not.

I rate him as a solid character, good but not great. He does nothing for an armylist beyond being a beatstick model. He's got many advantages, but I hardly rate him broken.

If he didn't need to pass psychic tests to gain the effect of a jump pack or S10, or if he could join squads then that would be broken. In his current incarnation, though, he just isn't.

Jabbdo wrote:

shrike wrote:I wanna see him up against GK. they will NFW ID him

Show me any person holding a NFW who will survive to hit him

Grey Knight Termies. They Cause a SINGLE wound against him, and his attacks are out. They abide by old TH rules, causing him to be stunned. A GM inflicts a SINGLE wound with his NFW and he may die outright. That being said, It is subject to A LOT of variables.

It's subject to Mephiston not killing them outright at I7 before they ever swing.

Dok wrote:He usually makes up his points, but out of combat or against MCs, he is pretty absurdly easy to kill. Just like most librarians.
All in all, I generally field him because he's a good SC choice and draws a lot of fire away from my other units... Leaving my reclusiarch led assault squad to mop up everything else

How so? Most MC's lack Eternal Warrior, and with I7 he'll be striking first. Hitting on 3's with re-rolls, wounding on two's, and then has to pass a psychic check on LD 10. He smokes just about any MC in the game. Against the Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, he's still more than a match for them.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:That, is the best summary of his abilities yet. As long as we can agree he is not the unit to end all units, then I am on board with what your saying.

He's probably the closest I've seen in a single model.

Let's make a "Super character" shall we?

First off, we want him to be extra deadly, so he has to be a HTH unit. - check
Let's make sure he's T6, so he can't be ID'ed by vindicators/powerfists/railguns. - check
2+ save so he can't be whittled by bolters/poison weapons too easily. - check
Might as well give him more wounds then anything else just incase something DOES hit him. W5 - check
FnP for toughness overkill. Sang priests - Check
Should be strong enough to reliable tear through a land raider with his bare hands, so S10. - check
Needs to be able to instant death stuff, so force weapon. - check
High initiative so he can't be sniped in HtH before he strikes, so I7 - check
Fast as hell so he can get rip face ASAP. Fleet + jetpack. - Check
Lots of re-rolls so he's always pro. - Re-roll failed hits and WS 7, so 3+ to hit with rerolls.

Negatives
Invul save to save against Ap1 and 2 and power weapons. - FAIL
Independent character for ablative wounds. - FAIL

I don't have anything against him from a gaming stand point, other then small model is REALLY easy to hide and get cover with but from a conceptually PoV...he's slowed. You literally cannot make a single model more powerful other then slapping on an invul save and making all his psychic powers passive. He's as close to the ceilings of damage output and survivability as is mathematically possible within the game system without totally breaking it in some way.

Look at him from a Tyranid point of view. He's got more wounds, and is as tough as a bloody HIVE TYRANT and is a third the size. His armor save is better (or equal if you go with a walking tyrant). More attacks, at a much better strength, and better initiative, AND he's faster then the flying tyrant....and costs 5 points less then my winged tyrant. I can't risk my big bugs against him because he will instant death them more then 50% of the time (SitW turns 90% into 50% chance to go splat...still a brutal gamble), using medium bugs like warriors and raveners is slowed, as he instant deaths them with S10, not even needing the force weapon. Shooting is ineffective, as his 2+ save and T6 will spare him from small fire fleshborer and devourer fire, and 2+ save negates hive guard fire. Zoans have to fight psychic hoods and cover saves to maybe chip 1 or 2 wounds off. That leaves Genestealers, gaunts and gargoyles. Our best bet is hitting him with 12-30 poisoned gants or genestealers....at that point it's a battle of attrition. A good BA player will not let that happen easily.

The issue people have with him is that you have a use a very specific set of stuff to kill him (plasma, melta, aka anti-tank guns) to kill him, and he has the ability to pretty much solo anything in the game from Land Raiders to Dreadnoughts to swarms of boyz to Demon Princes and C'tan....it's more then a little silly.

Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

They can?

40K Balance Meets Mephiston. Granted, this is pre-DE codex but the math-hammer is pretty compelling. I haven't read the whole thread but the first post (the math-hammer) really shows the single-model power against some of the CC "powerhouses" of 40k...assuming that the math isn't completely flawed. Again, using this just as a "check this out" in consideration to hte OP.

Yuber wrote:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:Everytime Ive fought Mephiston its been with guard, wolves or orks and he has been facedown by turn two every time. I honestly think he isnt worth a damn

Can you tell us specifically, what happened? Or better yet, battle reports.

Ive fought him twice with guard. The first time I "put a word in his ear" and moved him right out i the open before the game started and hit him with Vendettas. The second time I hit him with melta Vetts and he evaporated. I fought him once with wolves and by the time he got close I had dealt one wound then hit him with Cav. He got off Sword of Sanguinus but failed unleash rage due to rune priest then i ripped him a new donkey-cave. With orks i hit him with thrakka and laughed as he died.
Mephiston: You're only 225pts and you can have a two plus invulnerable that also gives a bad ass effect to the whole army and you're strength ten base with five attacks?!...... SHIIIIIIT!!!
Thrakka: Ummm yeah?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pheralan wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

They can?

40K Balance Meets Mephiston. Granted, this is pre-DE codex but the math-hammer is pretty compelling. I haven't read the whole thread but the first post (the math-hammer) really shows the single-model power against some of the CC "powerhouses" of 40k...assuming that the math isn't completely flawed. Again, using this just as a "check this out" in consideration to hte OP.

At no point did i see mephiston against thrakka, lysander or any other non-suck close combat units. All i saw were Necrons, Eldar, logan and nids...wooo. so im still not convinced he doesn't blow

Chosen Praetorian wrote:At no point did i see mephiston against thrakka, lysander or any other non-suck close combat units. All i saw were Necrons, Eldar, logan and nids...wooo. so im still not convinced he doesn't blow

I think that saying he has to either be able to take on Lysander or another really good CC unit or he blows is a bit far-fetched. But I can agree to disagree. My experiences against Mephiston may have colored my judgment some.

Pheralan wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

They can?

40K Balance Meets Mephiston. Granted, this is pre-DE codex but the math-hammer is pretty compelling. I haven't read the whole thread but the first post (the math-hammer) really shows the single-model power against some of the CC "powerhouses" of 40k...assuming that the math isn't completely flawed. Again, using this just as a "check this out" in consideration to hte OP.

they'll inflict about the same number of wounds on each other but the invulnerable save makes all the difference. Abaddon can potentially knock him out in one assault phase.
AF

Pheralan wrote:

Chosen Praetorian wrote:At no point did i see mephiston against thrakka, lysander or any other non-suck close combat units. All i saw were Necrons, Eldar, logan and nids...wooo. so im still not convinced he doesn't blow

I think that saying he has to either be able to take on Lysander or another really good CC unit or he blows is a bit far-fetched. But I can agree to disagree. My experiences against Mephiston may have colored my judgment some.

I was probably jumping the gun a bit but the way i look at this thread is "Why do people think mephiston is broke as hell?!" I dont really think he is uber terrible but i def dont think he is worth his points or all his hype. Thats why i compare him to the best cc units out there. Compared to them i dont think he is worth it at all

I am still solidly in the camp of "He's a decent character in that point range, but he isn't overpowered or broken". I found a lot of math problems with that link posted "balance meets mephiston", as the author took a lot of assumptions.

Here's a personal opinion of mine: Games are usually decided by the 3rd or 4th turn if they are a bad matchup. Out of the... i dunno... 6 or 7 games I've played with him he was usually tied up or failing his psychic tests enough where he failed to reliably kill what I set him upon by turn 3. Let's look at a particular situation:

He costs as much as a landraider, but how does he match up against a land raider?

Let's assume the land raider moved 6" at least, and for the purposes of this scenario we'll ignore starting positions and the opportunity the LR might have had to shoot off a couple of barrages before mephiston gets into CC with it. Pretend he just happens across the Land Raider, jumping from behind a building or some such thing. Also we'll assume he is not aided/hindered by outside influences, such enemy psychic hoods.

First off, he has to get his Sanguine Sword power active to even be able to damage that. Since rolling two 1's is approximately a 1/36th chance, and rolling two 6's is also a 1/36 chance, that's a 1/18th rolling a perils of the warp. Add in the chance of rolling an 11, which is approximately 1/18th chance, bringing his failure rate to 1/9 on the one test.

So our fail rate is already at 1/9 before he even starts.

However, he gets 5 attacks on the charge. He'll hit the LR on a 4+, making his high I and WS not applicable. So out of those attacks, 2.5 are expected to hit. He then needs to roll a 4+ to penetrate it, further reducing those hits to an expected 1.25 hits that penetrate. Out of those hits that penetrate, there is only a 1/3 chance that they will destroy the tank outright. That means that there is a 41% chance of him killing the tank outright on the first turn of combat, if he passes all his psychic tests. If you take into account his risk of failing the psychic tests, you have a 36/37% chance of him being able to successfully destroy a land raider on the charge.

Not good odds against a land raider, in other words. It will take him an estimated average of 3 rounds to destroy a single land raider. And I am sure that the opponent will not be ignoring him either.




Therefore, we can assume he is good at killing some units, but not others. Therefore, he is a solid character choice, but not the broken overpowered character that some would believe him to be. He is a Daemon Prince in disguise, that's all.

Fear is the mind-killer.

That is all.

Pheralan wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

They can?

40K Balance Meets Mephiston. Granted, this is pre-DE codex but the math-hammer is pretty compelling. I haven't read the whole thread but the first post (the math-hammer) really shows the single-model power against some of the CC "powerhouses" of 40k...assuming that the math isn't completely flawed. Again, using this just as a "check this out" in consideration to hte OP.

This thread is pretty interesting and has some nice numbers. Too bad the original poster’s assumptions are full of holes. In a “perfect scenario” against a “perfect opponent” Mephiston will rock face, that is all I learnt from this thread.

In terms of tactica for using Mephiston, I must stress that any BA player willing to field Mephiston must build a list to compliment Mephiston. Mephiston is very different from a normal, run of the mill character that can be included to augment a list. The list must augment Mephiston, not the other way around! Generally, you’ll want to provide Mephiston with as much protection and support from AP2 shooting and I find that mechtastic BA lists suits this very will. Any mechtastic BA list, filled with an obscene amount of Rhinos/Razorbacks/Pred/Vindis would be a good list to support Mephiston. I think the thought of having Mephiston hiding inside that wall of armour will be scary thing for most opponents.

As a side note, I am of the opinion that Mephiston’s ruleset in its current form shouldn’t have been created. Whilst his lack of an invulnerable save and IC status gives him a giant weakness to counter his uber killiness, it doesn’t balance out his offensive capabilities. I’m not saying he is over powered, as his giant weakness to AP2 shooting says otherwise, I am saying he is unbalanced. I’ve heard of glass hammer but perhaps a term along the lines of “Glass Atomic Weapon” is more appropriate?

Pheralan wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Carnage
The sanguinor, a wolf lord, Abaddon, the hive tyrant, lysander, etc etc can all ace this guy. its true that you have to use a very specific set of stuff to kill him - but that specific stuff is what ALL of the best characters in the game are carrying around with them. he can attack but he cant defend, and he doesnt attack hard enough to kill those guys before they kill him. he just isnt a contender in that slot.
AF

They can?

40K Balance Meets Mephiston. Granted, this is pre-DE codex but the math-hammer is pretty compelling. I haven't read the whole thread but the first post (the math-hammer) really shows the single-model power against some of the CC "powerhouses" of 40k...assuming that the math isn't completely flawed. Again, using this just as a "check this out" in consideration to hte OP.

ok I looked over Judge's article. He makes a strong case for mephiston. There are a couple things I want to point out about his argument though.
I did not read the whole thing, so if I missed something mea culpa. For whatever reason when people write 40k articles they go on and on. For instance Judge says: "True Balance denotes a state of internal and external harmony, wherein every unit in every army has a role, not always called for, but equally effective when called for in proportion to risk versus reward." Why do people write stuff like this? Its a complete platitude. ANYWAY on to the argument!

1. the relevant scenarios are against Abaddon, the Swarm Lord, Night Bringer, and Logan Grimnar. Why we're looking at weird scenarios like 3 wraith lords at the same time I have NFI. As someone already pointed out he doesn't look at Lysander, Gazkull, Wolf Lords, etc. This is a big ommission. No one disputes that Mephiston will tear through 11 zerkers.

2. I dont agree with his assumption that Mephiston will get the charge because he has wings of sanguinius. If two characters were fighting one on one on an empty table this assumption would hold, but they dont and it doesnt. That extra mobility is good for a 1 shot charge. After that he isnt any more or less likely to get the charge than any other model in the game.

3. I also don't agree with his assumption that Mephiston won't get shot at, or that the fight will be strictly 1 on 1. Both of these assumptions weight the math towards mephiston because Independenet characters can and do join squads - which mephiston can't. that means they're less likely to take wounds from shooting and more likely to be in combat with allies at their backs. no one disputes that Mephiston has a powerful stat line - but not being an independent character is a disadvantage that his math doesnt (perhaps cant) take account of. My first thought when I see that my opponent is running Mephiston is that I want to shoot him, I dont want to fight him in close combat at all. And I can shoot him. It's much more difficult for him to shoot Abaddon.

Based on the above I would start Mephiston with 1 less wound than in his stat-line (which is generous IMO), I would not assume that either Mephiston or his opponent get the charge, and I would look at his chances against some more of the real ass kickers in this game. All that being said he wrote a good article and convinced me to take another look at mpehiston. AF

-What really kills mephy most of the time is psychic hood.
-Mephy is not a anti CC unit because of lack of invul saves.
-The army list MUST be built around mephy.

Carnage43 wrote:Our best bet is hitting him with 12-30 poisoned gants or genestealers....at that point it's a battle of attrition.

Lashwhip and Bonesword+Poison=One sad mephy

I agree with the rest of your post though.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
there are a few things that can instant death him but not many.... alot of them he can instant death first, actually, because of his higher initiatve. a space marine librarian, for instance, has a pretty low chance of instant-deathing mephiston, since mephiston is faster.

This is true, but on the same token, he might be fast; but hes only as good as the rest of your list. If you cannot hide him, or hes your armys main "punch", he becomes a crutch. Of course, a strong list is only made stronger by him

1. the relevant scenarios are against Abaddon, the Swarm Lord, Night Bringer, and Logan Grimnar. Why we're looking at weird scenarios like 3 wraith lords at the same time I have NFI. As someone already pointed out he doesn't look at Lysander, Gazkull, Wolf Lords, etc. This is a big ommission. No one disputes that Mephiston will tear through 11 zerkers.

Lysander, Ghazghkull and Wolf Lords; He mentioned that he didn't include any 5th edition stuff, as it puts up a better fight, and is closer to being balanced against the BA book.

Ghaz has no chance and is ignored because it's a laughably unbalanced fight. Meph stomps with 1-2 wounds suffered at worst.

I can run any gear setup wolf lord if you'd like, but I can almost guarantee Meph will smash them all.

Lysander will be closer, but meph has twice as many attacks, 1 more wounds, rerolls hits (on a 3+) and has higher initiative. There's no way lysander would do better then Abaddon, so this is kind of a dumb match as well.

2. I dont agree with his assumption that Mephiston will get the charge because he has wings of sanguinius. If two characters were fighting one on one on an empty table this assumption would hold, but they dont and it doesnt. That extra mobility is good for a 1 shot charge. After that he isnt any more or less likely to get the charge than any other model in the game.

Wings + fleet.....there's nothing that can stand up to him that's even remotely that fast. Rhino/Razor shield and you can bet your ass he's getting the charge unless you are baddie.

3. I also don't agree with his assumption that Mephiston won't get shot at, or that the fight will be strictly 1 on 1. Both of these assumptions weight the math towards mephiston because Independenet characters can and do join squads - which mephiston can't. that means they're less likely to take wounds from shooting and more likely to be in combat with allies at their backs. no one disputes that Mephiston has a powerful stat line - but not being an independent character is a disadvantage that his math doesnt (perhaps cant) take account of. My first thought when I see that my opponent is running Mephiston is that I want to shoot him, I dont want to fight him in close combat at all. And I can shoot him. It's much more difficult for him to shoot Abaddon.

Rhino/razor shield and/or cover save means shooting him is a bitch. Every wound he suffers before combat is a failure on the BA player's part.

Based on the above I would start Mephiston with 1 less wound than in his stat-line (which is generous IMO), I would not assume that either Mephiston or his opponent get the charge, and I would look at his chances against some more of the real ass kickers in this game. All that being said he wrote a good article and convinced me to take another look at mpehiston. AF

Zid wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
there are a few things that can instant death him but not many.... alot of them he can instant death first, actually, because of his higher initiatve. a space marine librarian, for instance, has a pretty low chance of instant-deathing mephiston, since mephiston is faster.

This is true, but on the same token, he might be fast; but hes only as good as the rest of your list. If you cannot hide him, or hes your armys main "punch", he becomes a crutch. Of course, a strong list is only made stronger by him

yeah I agree with that.

Meph is stupid because no space marine should be T6 W5.
They should have given him eternal warrior instead of T6.

As for singling him out, am I the only one that has seen the hero delivery system?

Land Raider with 3-6 Priests, and the 2nd HQ choice who all join Meph to make a squad?

Now you have to crack AV14, before 5 to 8 furious assaulting, feeling no pain bad asses come to town.

-Matt

Carnage43 wrote:

1. the relevant scenarios are against Abaddon, the Swarm Lord, Night Bringer, and Logan Grimnar. Why we're looking at weird scenarios like 3 wraith lords at the same time I have NFI. As someone already pointed out he doesn't look at Lysander, Gazkull, Wolf Lords, etc. This is a big ommission. No one disputes that Mephiston will tear through 11 zerkers.

Lysander, Ghazghkull and Wolf Lords; He mentioned that he didn't include any 5th edition stuff, as it puts up a better fight, and is closer to being balanced against the BA book.

Ghaz has no chance and is ignored because it's a laughably unbalanced fight. Meph stomps with 1-2 wounds suffered at worst.

should have specified. *charging* ghazkull. I havent done the math but its a pretty good rule of thumb that no one can go toe to toe with gaz on the charge.

I can run any gear setup wolf lord if you'd like, but I can almost guarantee Meph will smash them all.

thunder wolf storm shield frost blade saga of the bear whatever that war gear is that makes him hit on 3s.

Lysander will be closer, but meph has twice as many attacks, 1 more wounds, rerolls hits (on a 3+) and has higher initiative. There's no way lysander would do better then Abaddon, so this is kind of a dumb match as well.

negative. lysander's storm shield will keep him safe, he's immune to mephiston's force weapon, he wounds on 2s.

2. I dont agree with his assumption that Mephiston will get the charge because he has wings of sanguinius. If two characters were fighting one on one on an empty table this assumption would hold, but they dont and it doesnt. That extra mobility is good for a 1 shot charge. After that he isnt any more or less likely to get the charge than any other model in the game.

Wings + fleet.....there's nothing that can stand up to him that's even remotely that fast. Rhino/Razor shield and you can bet your ass he's getting the charge unless you are baddie.

its not a question of mobility. If two characters were fighting one on one on an empty table it would be, but they dont and it isnt. The extra mobility is good for a 1 shot charge. After that it isnt any more or less likely to get that unit the charge than if he didnt have wings or fleet or whatever. as far as ther rhino/razor wall.... oh please. av 11.

3. I also don't agree with his assumption that Mephiston won't get shot at, or that the fight will be strictly 1 on 1. Both of these assumptions weight the math towards mephiston because Independenet characters can and do join squads - which mephiston can't. that means they're less likely to take wounds from shooting and more likely to be in combat with allies at their backs. no one disputes that Mephiston has a powerful stat line - but not being an independent character is a disadvantage that his math doesnt (perhaps cant) take account of. My first thought when I see that my opponent is running Mephiston is that I want to shoot him, I dont want to fight him in close combat at all. And I can shoot him. It's much more difficult for him to shoot Abaddon.

Rhino/razor shield and/or cover save means shooting him is a bitch. Every wound he suffers before combat is a failure on the BA player's part.

av 11.

Based on the above I would start Mephiston with 1 less wound than in his stat-line (which is generous IMO), I would not assume that either Mephiston or his opponent get the charge, and I would look at his chances against some more of the real ass kickers in this game. All that being said he wrote a good article and convinced me to take another look at mpehiston. AF

He was pitted against the "real ass kickers". Meph, Abaddon and the swarm lord are pretty much the best 3 in terms of damage output and survivability. These really are vacuum fights though. If the swarmlord had a lashwhip guard he'd likely win the fight for example. On the flip side, no good BA player would leave Meph out by himself, so you can bet you won't get a clean combat against only him either.

No. he wasnt. And no. they are not. Lysander, Gazkull, Wolf Lord, Sanguinor, Skarbrand, etc. were all missing.
Mephiston will always be more exposed than an independent character because he cant join squads.

Wolf Lord has a decent chance assuming Saga of the Bear and a Thunderwolf. Abaddon probably has just as much chance as Lysander, his damage output is much higher although is also very dependent on luck (roll a 1 for the Daemon Weapon and its game over). Remember that Lysander (and anyone else with a Thunderhammer) drops you to I1 after the first round, which significantly increases the chances of both sides killing each other at the same time.

Vect on the other hand has a decent chance of killing Mephiston in a single round, he goes first, has 3+ to hit with re-rolls and 3+ to wound which gets you 4 wounds on average (on the charge). Assuming Vect doesn't fail his 2+ invulnerable he is going to drop Mephistion in two rounds pretty comfortably and without even taking a wound (although to be fair if he fails the 2+ he dies).

@Carnage43

Lysander, Ghazghkull and Wolf Lords; He mentioned that he didn't include any 5th edition stuff, as it puts up a better fight, and is closer to being balanced against the BA book.

Ghaz has no chance and is ignored because it's a laughably unbalanced fight. Meph stomps with 1-2 wounds suffered at worst.

I can run any gear setup wolf lord if you'd like, but I can almost guarantee Meph will smash them all.

Lysander will be closer, but meph has twice as many attacks, 1 more wounds, rerolls hits (on a 3+) and has higher initiative. There's no way lysander would do better then Abaddon, so this is kind of a dumb match as well.

I ran the numbers on warriors with this combo and 5 kill him before he swings and is the same amount of points. WHO WOULD ALLOW THIS? Walking warriors will NEVER catch him. Using shrikes just attracts missile, melta and lascannon fire really fast. A LW/BS tyrant will not do enough damage to kill meph before going splat. Not to mention that decked warriors aren't a great choice in any other situation either, and I'd not likely field them in an all-comers list.

This is a pretty weak argument as the same could be said for the player fielding the opposing special characters. What you are omitting is:
1. The special characters would not be fighting alone. Judges assumptions assuming a one on one SC showdown was pretty unrealistic. Lysander’s chances of defeating Meph is a lot higher when he is rolling with a squad of TH/SS terminators (and what player fields Lysander alone?). Judge’s unrealistic assumptions in the thread assumed that Meph would be in a one on one fight against an enemy special character of equal cost.

2. Why would the enemy commander assault Meph (the BA player’s hammer unit) with his own hammer? The opposing player would most likely stall meph with a sacrificial unit and attack him with fire power (the correct strategy to deal with Meph) whilst the rest of the army (i.e. the part that matters) is focused on.

3. Any argument or assumptions that a unit will always get the charge, will never let a unit assault is completely arbitrary (as it completely ignores unit/terrain placement). Whilst some things are more likely to occur than others due to probability and external factors, they are never always an “automatic guarantee”.

yeah. to echo the above, mephiston wont last even a single turn against lysander and his hamminators. which was the original point about mephiston. not that he isnt good at killing hordes of infantry. but that he cant go toe to toe with the really hardcore units.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Meph is stupid because no space marine should be T6 W5.
They should have given him eternal warrior instead of T6.

As for singling him out, am I the only one that has seen the hero delivery system?

Land Raider with 3-6 Priests, and the 2nd HQ choice who all join Meph to make a squad?

Now you have to crack AV14, before 5 to 8 furious assaulting, feeling no pain bad asses come to town.

-Matt

Mephy cant form squads.

Son, I am disappoint.

Carnage43 wrote:

1. the relevant scenarios are against Abaddon, the Swarm Lord, Night Bringer, and Logan Grimnar. Why we're looking at weird scenarios like 3 wraith lords at the same time I have NFI. As someone already pointed out he doesn't look at Lysander, Gazkull, Wolf Lords, etc. This is a big ommission. No one disputes that Mephiston will tear through 11 zerkers.

Lysander, Ghazghkull and Wolf Lords; He mentioned that he didn't include any 5th edition stuff, as it puts up a better fight, and is closer to being balanced against the BA book.

Ghaz has no chance and is ignored because it's a laughably unbalanced fight. Meph stomps with 1-2 wounds suffered at worst.

I can run any gear setup wolf lord if you'd like, but I can almost guarantee Meph will smash them all.

Lysander will be closer, but meph has twice as many attacks, 1 more wounds, rerolls hits (on a 3+) and has higher initiative. There's no way lysander would do better then Abaddon, so this is kind of a dumb match as well.

2. I dont agree with his assumption that Mephiston will get the charge because he has wings of sanguinius. If two characters were fighting one on one on an empty table this assumption would hold, but they dont and it doesnt. That extra mobility is good for a 1 shot charge. After that he isnt any more or less likely to get the charge than any other model in the game.

Wings + fleet.....there's nothing that can stand up to him that's even remotely that fast. Rhino/Razor shield and you can bet your ass he's getting the charge unless you are baddie.

3. I also don't agree with his assumption that Mephiston won't get shot at, or that the fight will be strictly 1 on 1. Both of these assumptions weight the math towards mephiston because Independenet characters can and do join squads - which mephiston can't. that means they're less likely to take wounds from shooting and more likely to be in combat with allies at their backs. no one disputes that Mephiston has a powerful stat line - but not being an independent character is a disadvantage that his math doesnt (perhaps cant) take account of. My first thought when I see that my opponent is running Mephiston is that I want to shoot him, I dont want to fight him in close combat at all. And I can shoot him. It's much more difficult for him to shoot Abaddon.

Rhino/razor shield and/or cover save means shooting him is a bitch. Every wound he suffers before combat is a failure on the BA player's part.

Based on the above I would start Mephiston with 1 less wound than in his stat-line (which is generous IMO), I would not assume that either Mephiston or his opponent get the charge, and I would look at his chances against some more of the real ass kickers in this game. All that being said he wrote a good article and convinced me to take another look at mpehiston. AF

Its people like you that keep me from posting frequently because i usually end up calling you stupid and get banned for awhile. Do you really think thrakka cant handle him? I guess five base attacks at S 10 against a guy that has no invulnerable save isnt enough. Oh wait, did i mention he has a two plus invulnerable for two player turns with eternal warrior? Cause thats kinda important. And a wolf lord on a mount with a hammer and wolf tooth with saga of the bear and storm shield is also enough. Ive also fight Lysander against Meph and he drops most of the time. You need to remember that the hammers from lysander and lord cause him to hit at I 1 for the next combat. Now stop being a giant slow and think before you talk.

Yuber wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Meph is stupid because no space marine should be T6 W5.
They should have given him eternal warrior instead of T6.

As for singling him out, am I the only one that has seen the hero delivery system?

Land Raider with 3-6 Priests, and the 2nd HQ choice who all join Meph to make a squad?

Now you have to crack AV14, before 5 to 8 furious assaulting, feeling no pain bad asses come to town.

-Matt

Mephy cant form squads.

Son, I am disappoint.

What happens is ICs can not join single models.

Its people like you that keep me from posting frequently because i usually end up calling you stupid and get banned for awhile. Do you really think thrakka cant handle him? I guess five base attacks at S 10 against a guy that has no invulnerable save isnt enough. Oh wait, did i mention he has a two plus invulnerable for two player turns with eternal warrior? Cause thats kinda important. And a wolf lord on a mount with a hammer and wolf tooth with saga of the bear and storm shield is also enough. Ive also fight Lysander against Meph and he drops most of the time. You need to remember that the hammers from lysander and lord cause him to hit at I 1 for the next combat. Now stop being a giant slow and think before you talk.

No need to get upset over a math hammer match. If you throw the dice enough a single ork boy will solo Mephiston, so your "Lysander versus Meph in my experience is Lysander win" is random, not math. Math says Lysander takes a dirt nap, but only JUST. Meph down to 1 or 2 wounds.

Ghazzy's Waagh ability is typically discounted as it's not usable 100% of the same...in fact it's "up" less then 16% of the combat phases in the game typically and it would be foolish to use the waaagh ability JUST to kill Meph, it should be used when it will get the most for your entire army. His attacks still need to hit (on a 4) and wound (on a 2), so each attack has less then an even chance to wound Meph. You'd need ~12 attack to kill Meph with ghazzy. Even giving him the charge bonus you are looking at 3 combat phases, so the waagh drops anyways. Meph takes ~4.16 wounds in the first 2 combat phases and meph deals ~1.35. Next phase Meph is full power, doing 2.77 more wounds....killing ghazzy before he swings. So waagh makes it really really close (closer then the wolf lord actually), but meph still wins.

The Wolf Lord would need a storm shield, saga of the "not instant deathable" (bear?) and Thunder wolf mount, Wolf tooth necklace and I'm going to go with T-hammer as your best bet. Less wounds then lysander, but does significantly more damage....I'm gunna throw down the math because it might actually go the Lord's way. Throw in the huge charge range of the wolf cav and we have a contender. Oddly, the lord is the same amount of points....hah.

Say neither charged, no psychic interference from rune priests.
So, S10 Thunder hammer, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with 5 attacks.

Meph is up first. 5 attacks, S10, hits on 3s with a re-roll, and 58% of the time gets to re-roll his 2+ to wound due to gaze. I'll split the difference on Gaze and call it 50/50 for math simplicity...this works in the lord's favor by a fraction of a %.

Meph scores ~1.35 wounds
Lord strikes back scoring ~2.77 wounds

After 1 phase, Meph at 2.23, Lord at 1.65....now they strike at the same time thanks to the T-hammer.

Phase 2; 2.7 wounds on the lord at this points versus a dead Meph at ~5.55.

Hrm. Looks like the lord scapes by with a win, but there's a decent chance he goes splat at the same time. Meph is ironically 1 attack short of mathematically tying the combat....so there's the charge bonus for you Interesting fight though.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

Yuber wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:Meph is stupid because no space marine should be T6 W5.
They should have given him eternal warrior instead of T6.

As for singling him out, am I the only one that has seen the hero delivery system?

Land Raider with 3-6 Priests, and the 2nd HQ choice who all join Meph to make a squad?

Now you have to crack AV14, before 5 to 8 furious assaulting, feeling no pain bad asses come to town.

-Matt

Mephy cant form squads.

Son, I am disappoint.

What happens is ICs can not join single models.

What happens is Mephiston is not an IC, there have been countless threads on this. FAQ states he cannot be joined by any other units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Carnage43 wrote:

Its people like you that keep me from posting frequently because i usually end up calling you stupid and get banned for awhile. Do you really think thrakka cant handle him? I guess five base attacks at S 10 against a guy that has no invulnerable save isnt enough. Oh wait, did i mention he has a two plus invulnerable for two player turns with eternal warrior? Cause thats kinda important. And a wolf lord on a mount with a hammer and wolf tooth with saga of the bear and storm shield is also enough. Ive also fight Lysander against Meph and he drops most of the time. You need to remember that the hammers from lysander and lord cause him to hit at I 1 for the next combat. Now stop being a giant slow and think before you talk.

No need to get upset over a math hammer match. If you throw the dice enough a single ork boy will solo Mephiston, so your "Lysander versus Meph in my experience is Lysander win" is random, not math. Math says Lysander takes a dirt nap, but only JUST. Meph down to 1 or 2 wounds.

Ghazzy's Waagh ability is typically discounted as it's not usable 100% of the same...in fact it's "up" less then 16% of the combat phases in the game typically and it would be foolish to use the waaagh ability JUST to kill Meph, it should be used when it will get the most for your entire army. His attacks still need to hit (on a 4) and wound (on a 2), so each attack has less then an even chance to wound Meph. You'd need ~12 attack to kill Meph with ghazzy. Even giving him the charge bonus you are looking at 3 combat phases, so the waagh drops anyways. Meph takes ~4.16 wounds in the first 2 combat phases and meph deals ~1.35. Next phase Meph is full power, doing 2.77 more wounds....killing ghazzy before he swings. So waagh makes it really really close (closer then the wolf lord actually), but meph still wins.

The Wolf Lord would need a storm shield, saga of the "not instant deathable" (bear?) and Thunder wolf mount, Wolf tooth necklace and I'm going to go with T-hammer as your best bet. Less wounds then lysander, but does significantly more damage....I'm gunna throw down the math because it might actually go the Lord's way. Throw in the huge charge range of the wolf cav and we have a contender. Oddly, the lord is the same amount of points....hah.

Say neither charged, no psychic interference from rune priests.
So, S10 Thunder hammer, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with 5 attacks.

Meph is up first. 5 attacks, S10, hits on 3s with a re-roll, and 58% of the time gets to re-roll his 2+ to wound due to gaze. I'll split the difference on Gaze and call it 50/50 for math simplicity...this works in the lord's favor by a fraction of a %.

Meph scores ~1.35 wounds
Lord strikes back scoring ~2.77 wounds

After 1 phase, Meph at 2.23, Lord at 1.65....now they strike at the same time thanks to the T-hammer.

Phase 2; 2.7 wounds on the lord at this points versus a dead Meph at ~5.55.

Hrm. Looks like the lord scapes by with a win, but there's a decent chance he goes splat at the same time. Meph is ironically 1 attack short of mathematically tying the combat....so there's the charge bonus for you Interesting fight though.

Why do you play the game at all? Looks like everything is a variable to be accounted for.

Everything IS a variable to be accounted for. Being good at the game is understanding every part of it on every level you are able to and exploiting that knowledge to your advantage.

Don't lie and say you don't do this, because every person that plays the game does it on some level...i just do it to 2 decimal places.

Apparently you and I play games for different reasons.

I play games to have a good time. You, apparently, are "TFG" who plays to WAAC.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Apparently you and I play games for different reasons.

I play games to have a good time. You, apparently, are "TFG" who plays to WAAC.

As an Ultramarine and Tyranid player...I'm offended at that comment.

Understanding the game isn't the same as playing WAAC style actually.

Manners people. Don’t want to get this thread locked.

Carnage43 wrote:Everything IS a variable to be accounted for. Being good at the game is understanding every part of it on every level you are able to and exploiting that knowledge to your advantage.

Don't lie and say you don't do this, because every person that plays the game does it on some level...i just do it to 2 decimal places.

I can endorse this approach. though you're still wrong about mephiston of course

Carnage43 wrote:Everything IS a variable to be accounted for. Being good at the game is understanding every part of it on every level you are able to and exploiting that knowledge to your advantage.

Don't lie and say you don't do this, because every person that plays the game does it on some level...i just do it to 2 decimal places.

You do it wrong.

For example, Ghazkull.

"Ghazzy's Waagh ability is typically discounted as it's not usable 100% of the [time]"

The Waagh is a player-activated ability that can be chosen to activate, essentially, whenever the player wants. It's completely wrong to discount this; if I have Ghaz and you have Meph there is no reason for me not to save the Waagh specifically for close combat with Meph. It's stupid to say that it's applicable in less than 16% of game turns; I choose when to apply it. It is going to be applicable in 100% of game turns where Ghaz and Meph initiate a combat.

Not only that, but when Meph does charge he's going to be fighting Ghaz and the hidden PK Nob. That's why these 1-for-1 comparisons are stupid.

Similarly your Meph v Lysander and Meph v Wolf Lord "mathhammer"; you assume that he gets off Wings and Sword. In reality, with psychic hoods/rune staffs FREAKING EVERYWHERE these days, he only gets one power a turn.

And Lysander rarely is encountered on foot, alone; the Crusader and Hammerbros is another 500 points but it's always there. If that squad so much as touches Meph (with its 22" charge radius) he's gone.

Mathhammer says that Mephiston never loses to IG. He's always out of LoS, always crushing their tanks and squads in CC. Meph vs CCS with 4 plasma guns is Meph winning every time in the theoretical bubble if your assumption is that he always has cover/LoS blocked until CC.

In reality, Meph dies to plasma all the time. That's where you're fundamentally doing it wrong, because even though your math is correct, your assumptions are absolutely not.

meph up against GK grand master w/CCW and NFW-
GK hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and causes ID. so in one turn he deals 1 wound- he just needs to pass a psychic test (Ld 10, so he probably will)
Meph hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and doesn't cause ID IIRC (no BA codex)- what is his Initiative, attacks and strength?

shrike wrote:meph up against GK grand master w/CCW and NFW-
GK hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and causes ID. so in one turn he deals 1 wound- he just needs to pass a psychic test (Ld 10, so he probably will)
Meph hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and doesn't cause ID IIRC (no BA codex)- what is his Initiative, attacks and strength?

i thought force weapons cause instant death? i maybe wrong

shrike wrote:meph up against GK grand master w/CCW and NFW-
GK hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and causes ID. so in one turn he deals 1 wound- he just needs to pass a psychic test (Ld 10, so he probably will)
Meph hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and doesn't cause ID IIRC (no BA codex)- what is his Initiative, attacks and strength?

Meph hits on 3s, wounds on 3s, chances to reroll, and ID at S10 striking at I7.

GK has a chance to block some of his powers with the hood, but even without the hood Meph can kill him on average. GKGM is a poor match up unless he and Meph can go simul, or he has ablative wounds from retinue.

mephiston will probably insta-gib the grand master first. unless the grand master is EW I dont recall

The GKGM is not an EW. Also Meph has a Psychic hood to attempt to stop the NFW. Essentially Meph gets 2 chances to ID the GKGM as he can try for s10 and failing that he can try to use the force weapon...The GKGM can take the old retinue though so unless they are all dead he can't be singled out...I have no idea why someone would want to throw meph as a squad of s6 power weapons with invul saves anyway. He should be quick enough and have the assets to avoid combat with them...then again Land raiders do nasty things.

Cheers,
~Volkan

You do it wrong.

For example, Ghazkull.

"Ghazzy's Waagh ability is typically discounted as it's not usable 100% of the [time]"

The Waagh is a player-activated ability that can be chosen to activate, essentially, whenever the player wants. It's completely wrong to discount this; if I have Ghaz and you have Meph there is no reason for me not to save the Waagh specifically for close combat with Meph. It's stupid to say that it's applicable in less than 16% of game turns; I choose when to apply it. It is going to be applicable in 100% of game turns where Ghaz and Meph initiate a combat.

You mean, "In my shooting phase". So it doesn't work if Meph charges you (unless you pop it early, in which case meph just waits it out). Like I said, it would be unwise in a gaming situation to save an army wide special movement ability for the fight between Meph and ghazzy. The correct thing would be to use the ability when it benefits your army on the whole the most and just use a boyz squad with a hidden powerfist to whittle Meph a bit. Regardless, Meph won/tied with Waagh up anyways.

Not only that, but when Meph does charge he's going to be fighting Ghaz and the hidden PK Nob. That's why these 1-for-1 comparisons are stupid.

Yeah, 1v1 battles at full strength are not overly common, but they do happen. They aren't meant to be a be-all-end-all bible to live by, as there's a thousand variables to account for in a game. They are meant to be a measuring stick to show how powerful a character's tanking and damage abilities are compared to each other. If Meph beat ghazzy, then you can bet Meph will slice up more marines/dreads/vehicles then Ghazzy will.

Similarly your Meph v Lysander and Meph v Wolf Lord "mathhammer"; you assume that he gets off Wings and Sword. In reality, with psychic hoods/rune staffs FREAKING EVERYWHERE these days, he only gets one power a turn.

Yeah, agreed. Although I don't 100% agree on the prevalence of psychic defense. In 30+ games I've come up against it twice (wolves and BA with a GKGM). Also, Sword isn't even necessary most of the time, as he's S6 and able to instant death with the force weapon anyways. Wings only really matters for getting the charge, and that's IF he isn't being transported (throw him in an empty rhino/razor/LR/SR...stupid IMO, but I've seen it done).

And Lysander rarely is encountered on foot, alone; the Crusader and Hammerbros is another 500 points but it's always there. If that squad so much as touches Meph (with its 22" charge radius) he's gone.

Agreed, but if you give Lysander a bodyguard + LR, then you need to match it up with an equal amount of points for Meph...and the math goes crazy and breaks down. Might as well just play a game at that point

Mathhammer says that Mephiston never loses to IG. He's always out of LoS, always crushing their tanks and squads in CC. Meph vs CCS with 4 plasma guns is Meph winning every time in the theoretical bubble if your assumption is that he always has cover/LoS blocked until CC.

In reality, Meph dies to plasma all the time. That's where you're fundamentally doing it wrong, because even though your math is correct, your assumptions are absolutely not.

He's not unkillable, but he's extremely difficult to kill before he guts something of yours and get caught in the open. THAT is when I've typically seen him bite it, as he out paces his screen and eats something, only to die afterwards. But that's where you use tactics and combined assaults with other elements to hopefully protect him. The whole math hammer thing is just to show how absurdly tough, deadly and fast he is compared to units and characters of other armies.

Carnage43 wrote:Agreed, but if you give Lysander a bodyguard + LR, then you need to match it up with an equal amount of points for Meph...and the math goes crazy and breaks down. Might as well just play a game at that point

And that's the whole point. Nobody plays 250 point hero duels, which is typically the level of the analysis run to say that Mephiston (or whoever) is broken. In reality, Meph is basically a non-entity in a medium-to-strong codex and he's neither going to win nor lose fights by himself.

As you said, "the math goes crazy at that point". I'm not disagreeing that 40k is predictable and easy to plug into a spreadsheet, but as with most quantitative models, there's very little value to be extracted from their conclusions unless you can validate the assumptions.

Gibbsey wrote:

shrike wrote:meph up against GK grand master w/CCW and NFW-
GK hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and causes ID. so in one turn he deals 1 wound- he just needs to pass a psychic test (Ld 10, so he probably will)
Meph hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and doesn't cause ID IIRC (no BA codex)- what is his Initiative, attacks and strength?

i thought force weapons cause instant death? i maybe wrong

only on a passed psychic test.

anyways- GKGM- 145pts meph- 250pts
so if i spend 100pts on retinue, that's GKGM and 2 TAGK- both NFW's, so ID as well form them.

Illumini wrote:

shrike wrote:I think, that although the whole T6 thing is kinda wierd, That may be the reason behind no-invul- He can't be ID'd. That and libbies don't have invuls.
way to deal with mephiston? GK grand master. Hit him and he goes pop. NFW'd.

He can be ID'd. You don't need the NFW to do it, a normal force weapon will do it just as well. the problem is of course that your force weapon carrier will be a bloody smear because of all the S10 attacks that hit before him. High invulnerable save units, tough ID units (swarmlord), large amount of poison weapons, wytches (because he will take forever killing them and will take 1-2 wounds each turn) and AP1-2 weaponry will do the trick. Against tau, Mephiston died in turn 2 as after having punched through a crisis unit he was left in the open, ready for a ton of plasma and railguns. Another game he died to rapidfiring DE warriors followed by shadowfield arcon + incubi combat.

He is a great unit though, no question about it. The problem people have with him seem to go the other way, with cries of cheese

Agreed, but the NFW w/ Grand Master would actually be one of my main choices, as I have that and Mephiston I know that the GM although just as good in his own way does not get the cry of cheese.

Back on track the NFW would be better because it is S6 whereas I see where you are coming from (NFW insta killing anything) most 'normal' force weapons will need a to wound and the added invulnerable 5+ or 4+ (if you like) makes it even better.

sourclams wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:Agreed, but if you give Lysander a bodyguard + LR, then you need to match it up with an equal amount of points for Meph...and the math goes crazy and breaks down. Might as well just play a game at that point

And that's the whole point. Nobody plays 250 point hero duels, which is typically the level of the analysis run to say that Mephiston (or whoever) is broken. In reality, Meph is basically a non-entity in a medium-to-strong codex and he's neither going to win nor lose fights by himself.

As you said, "the math goes crazy at that point". I'm not disagreeing that 40k is predictable and easy to plug into a spreadsheet, but as with most quantitative models, there's very little value to be extracted from their conclusions unless you can validate the assumptions.

qft

give the GKGM a SS and NFW then 2+/3++ ID NFW'd
what's meph's initiative?

higher than just about anything. keepers of secrets, banshees, and a few DE characters will strike before him. not much else.

what is his initiative? 7? 8? 9? what?

7, 8 with furious charge from a sang priest.

FYI, GKGM's storm shield are 4++ invul and don't work vs ranged attacks. Also, TA GKs don't have force weapons, just S6 power waepons. GKGM won't beat Meph solo, regardless of gear.

shrike wrote:give the GKGM a SS and NFW then 2+/3++ ID NFW'd
what's meph's initiative?

Seriously, you might want to read the DH codex before you comment on things like this, not only does GKTMs not get Force Weapons, as you claimed earlier in this thread, but DH Storm Shileds are only 4++. What WOULD be interesting though would be a Grey Knight Brother-Captain with a retinue of 4, the retinue having TH/SS, coming in at 245 points. If only one TH guy survives, that'll mean almost certain death for Meph, as the DH Thunder Hammers prevents wounded models from attacking and thus can lock you down forever.

oops sorry. Lost my codex and haven't read it in a while.
Presumed the GK SS were the same as SM SS. oops.
anyways- GKGM & 2 TH/SS TAGKs.
or a libby w/ quickening and mightof the ancients- I10, S6 FW. there. hits on 4's, wounds on 4's, ID (on a psychic test)
or zogwort. Squigged.

shrike wrote:
or a libby w/ quickening and mightof the ancients- I10, S6 FW. there. hits on 4's, wounds on 4's, ID (on a psychic test)

or zogwort. Squigged.

1)That libby just used 3 psy powers....

2)Mephy is not an IC. No Squigging for him.

Shrike, I would fully recommend you know what you are talking about before you start trying to argue something.
I honestly don't mean that in an offensive way, I'm just being truthful.
When you are having to ask numerous questions and making numerous mistakes, it doesn't bode well for your argument...

Take it easy on the guy, he's obviously new.

Libby on Mephiston is a bad matchup for the Libby... Both have psychic hoods so powers will be nerfed for both. The difference is that mephy already hits like a daemon, even without the powers, and uses initiative 7 at that.

Jayden63 wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

Why have a stat system that goes up to 10 if you're not going to use all the options.

You should check some of the stat lines for critters back in the old Rogue Trader book. You know, like when a character could have 10 Jokaero Digital Weapons, each of which mimicked a pistol type weapon, and all of which could be fired in the same round. Oh, and they could have a heavy weapon, power armor, and one of a variety of defensive fields.

Thank god we don't play those rules anymore. Memphy just is wrong on so many levels in todays gaming rule set. He just should not exist how currently is.

Actually he didn't really 'bring' that stat line, it's a remnant from 2nd edition when stats like that were not so uncommon. Though even then he was a bit special, his original Stat line was WS8 BS6 S7 T6 W4 I9 A4 Ld10 3+ Save and an additional 5++ invulnerable save. He has been toned down a little since then, just not as much as other units. Back then an ordinary 'off the shelf' Space Marine Captain was WS7 BS7 S5 T5 W3 I7 A3 Ld10, and could be given a massively enhanced stat line just by paying an extra 25 points for an upgrade called Combat Drugs. Oddly Mephiston's original stat line is very reminiscent of a quite unremarkable character (I.e. Brother Calistarius) with the Combat Drugs upgrade. If you take a closer look at the Mephiston model you might notice under his cape, two little syringes still hang from his belt...

I never noticed the syringes... Very cool indeed !

shrike wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:

shrike wrote:meph up against GK grand master w/CCW and NFW-
GK hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and causes ID. so in one turn he deals 1 wound- he just needs to pass a psychic test (Ld 10, so he probably will)
Meph hits on 4's, wounds on 4's and doesn't cause ID IIRC (no BA codex)- what is his Initiative, attacks and strength?

i thought force weapons cause instant death? i maybe wrong

only on a passed psychic test.

anyways- GKGM- 145pts meph- 250pts
so if i spend 100pts on retinue, that's GKGM and 2 TAGK- both NFW's, so ID as well form them.

Sorry, only the Grand Masters NFW is actually a force weapon, for the terminators its just a str6 PW.

Yeah, meph would kill all 3 of them before they got to strike


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just another thing I'd like to bring up: Mephistons lack of invul. Its this that prevents him from going toe to toe with any really good CC units and standing a decent chance of winning, and its the problem most people seem to have with him. The most common reason I hear people malign Mephiston is because he lacks an invul, and sometimes due to his reliance on psy powers to be fully effective.

So, I ask, if you could give him an invul, or some other gear, what would you give him? State new gear and a new points cost, please, stay reasonable. Dont say "give him a BA shadowfield for a 2++ and str10 and JP standard, reduce his points to 100" -.-

A best case scenario for me would be him receiving a storm shield, and having his points bumped up to 275. I'd also like him to receive a JP standard, because even you average Joe assault marine gets one, so why doesnt Meph? Plus then he can FINALLY deepstrike, so you can use him in a DOA army. ut lets forget the storm shield, because I can already hear the cries of "cheese" that would follow, so lets give him a 4++ (iron halo or equivalent) and a JP standard, and bump his points up to 280.

Thoughts?

No, just no. Mephiston should not, under any circumstances, have an Invulnerable Save. It's really that simple, give him an Iron Halo and wave goodbye to his balance, his cost would have to skyrocket to unfeasible ranges if that happened.

sorry guys- I do not have the BA codex. I will by christmas, but until then I shall shut up. I had the DH one, but I can't find it.
so meph is hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's right?
so could a termie libby w/SS survive a round of combat against him?
If so- the libby hits on 4's, wounds on 4's, and deals ID.
could the sanguinor beat him?
okay. shutting up.
...
>comms end<

shrike wrote:sorry guys- I do not have the BA codex. I will by christmas, but until then I shall shut up. I had the DH one, but I can't find it.
so meph is hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's right?
so could a termie libby w/SS survive a round of combat against him?
If so- the libby hits on 4's, wounds on 4's, and deals ID.
could the sanguinor beat him?
okay. shutting up.
...
>comms end<

Mephiston is WS 7, S 6, T 6. Not only is he hitting on 3s (likely with a re-roll) and wounding on 2s (very good odds of having a re-roll here, too) but he will be inflicting Instant Death, as well - by virtue of Sanguine Sword, or by using his own Force Weapon. Being a Librarian himself, and all.

The Librarian, assuming he survives, is hitting on 4s and wounding on 6s.

Sanguinor is best used to slay enemy HQ choices. He will kill Mephiston, in no uncertain terms.

libby wounds on 4's. S6.
so it's- 3.526 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved ID...ah.
libby attacks- 0.75 ID unsaved...ah.
but the libby's nearly 2 times cheaper (140pts-250pts)
so if there were 2 libbies- one would die before he could attack, and the other has a decent chance of ID'ing.
how about an inquisitor lord w/ henchmen?
3 warrior henchmen w/SS
Inquisitor lord has NFW and SS. 140pts IIRC.
so that means meph kills a warrior- 3.526 hits, 3 wounds, 1.5 unsaved.
Inq. strikes back with NFW, dealing 0.75 unsaved. ID.
5 wounds left (2 from the warriors).
NFW is still a FW because the wielder's a psyker, right? hopefully.
if it is a FW, capow. Done. If not...

Shrike, there is so much wrong with every single post you have posted in this thread, I thought you said you would bow out of this discussion?

@Jabbdo: Stormshield for 25pts for Mephiston? Or halo + jump pack for 30? Are you daft? Mephiston is fine as he is because he doesn't have an invulnerable save and because he is dependent on his psychic powers. And you want to take these weaknesses away for 30 pts? You would break the game with such sillyness.

Illumini wrote:Shrike, there is so much wrong with every single post you have posted in this thread, I thought you said you would bow out of this discussion?

a) I am making a valid point (If it is a FW)
b) I have not taken a blood oath to shut up. Freedom of speech.
c) What am I posting wrong?
d) I, like others in this thread, have been going based on what others have said concerning meph.
e) I am, at least, making an effort to bu the BA codex.
f) please stop picking at me, or this thread will most likely be blocked. Keep the peace.

Illumini wrote:Shrike, there is so much wrong with every single post you have posted in this thread, I thought you said you would bow out of this discussion?

@Jabbdo: Stormshield for 25pts for Mephiston? Or halo + jump pack for 30? Are you daft? Mephiston is fine as he is because he doesn't have an invulnerable save and because he is dependent on his psychic powers. And you want to take these weaknesses away for 30 pts? You would break the game with such sillyness.

I dont consider myself daft, no.

I know Mephiston is fine, I was merely attempting to begin discussion on a possible reasonable invulnerable save for him to receive. Obviously this was foolish of me, as Meph should apparently NEVER be given an invul.

Sorry for my speculation.

Jabbdo wrote:

Illumini wrote:Shrike, there is so much wrong with every single post you have posted in this thread, I thought you said you would bow out of this discussion?

@Jabbdo: Stormshield for 25pts for Mephiston? Or halo + jump pack for 30? Are you daft? Mephiston is fine as he is because he doesn't have an invulnerable save and because he is dependent on his psychic powers. And you want to take these weaknesses away for 30 pts? You would break the game with such sillyness.

I dont consider myself daft, no.

I know Mephiston is fine, I was merely attempting to begin discussion on a possible reasonable invulnerable save for him to receive. Obviously this was foolish of me, as Meph should apparently NEVER be given an invul.

Sorry for my speculation.

but then he would be the equivalent of a carnifex with 4+ invul. ouch. His points cost would skyrocket, and he will be very OP.

shrike wrote:libby wounds on 4's. S6.
so it's- 3.526 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved ID...ah.
libby attacks- 0.75 ID unsaved...ah.
but the libby's nearly 2 times cheaper (140pts-250pts)
so if there were 2 libbies- one would die before he could attack, and the other has a decent chance of ID'ing.
how about an inquisitor lord w/ henchmen?
3 warrior henchmen w/SS
Inquisitor lord has NFW and SS. 140pts IIRC.
so that means meph kills a warrior- 3.526 hits, 3 wounds, 1.5 unsaved.
Inq. strikes back with NFW, dealing 0.75 unsaved. ID.
5 wounds left (2 from the warriors).
NFW is still a FW because the wielder's a psyker, right? hopefully.
if it is a FW, capow. Done. If not...

This.

This is what you are doing wrong.

You dont know Meph's stats.

You dont know a librarians stats.

You dont know an inquisitors on his henchmens stats.

And yet you make claims on all of these models' performances based on incorrect or missing information.

I know the libby, stats, but i'll just shut up now.
...

shrike wrote:libby wounds on 4's. S6.

Really?

IIRC he's talking about under the effects of the Psychic Power (quickening?), nonetheless it doesn't matter and he's dropped the subject and so should you IMO...

I put him on my Ignore List. Please be so kind as not to quote the troll so I don't have to see his replies. Thanks so much.

Jabbdo wrote:

Illumini wrote:Shrike, there is so much wrong with every single post you have posted in this thread, I thought you said you would bow out of this discussion?

@Jabbdo: Stormshield for 25pts for Mephiston? Or halo + jump pack for 30? Are you daft? Mephiston is fine as he is because he doesn't have an invulnerable save and because he is dependent on his psychic powers. And you want to take these weaknesses away for 30 pts? You would break the game with such sillyness.

I dont consider myself daft, no.

I know Mephiston is fine, I was merely attempting to begin discussion on a possible reasonable invulnerable save for him to receive. Obviously this was foolish of me, as Meph should apparently NEVER be given an invul.

Sorry for my speculation.

Mephistons stats would have to go down considerably in order for an invulnerable save 4++ or better to be at all balanced on him. With his current stats, you're right, he should never have an invulnerable. its the only thing that makes him even remotely balanced.

This thread just needs to be locked now. Too many sensitive folks around this issue.

shrike wrote:I had the DH one, but I can't find it.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1050287a_Codex__Daemonhunters

Here Shrike, have a merry Christmas...

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:This thread just needs to be locked now. Too many sensitive folks around this issue.

?? IMO this discussion has been very civilized compared to some of the Mephiston thread discussions I have seen.

Locking a thread whenever a little disagreement arises is not the way to go.

Jayden63 wrote:I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

The fault lies not with Mephiston or others having high stat numbers it is with trying to squeeze godlike beings into a 10 point system and making them balance with the other forces. If you didn't have Greater Daemons and the like in the game this wouldn't be an issue, but who would want that much awesome excluded simply so the stat system would scale better?

Gridge wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

The fault lies not with Mephiston or others having high stat numbers it is with trying to squeeze godlike beings into a 10 point system and making them balance with the other forces. If you didn't have Greater Daemons and the like in the game this wouldn't be an issue, but who would want that much awesome excluded simply so the stat system would scale better?

Personally I'd like to see him at a higher points cost, somewhere in the 300 range. I should not have to see him in almost every BA list I play see... The fact is, that I have to focus SOOOO much of my fire/units on him, that I simply can't kill him AND the other 1200 points. Plus he can close the range of the table so fast, he puts bikers to shame...

And look, I'd rather have him on the 40mm base, and have him a terminator sized model, this way he can't obscure himself as well...

Cassuis is T6... I don't see many Vanilla players fielding him... This is because he is only W2. With a 3+ save, and FnP.

In all honesty, it seems like GW merged Cassius and Tirgris, gave him the best of both's statlines, gave the model special psychic powers, and Tigris' gear... BOOM!!! We have Mephiston!

Carnage43 wrote:

You do it wrong.

For example, Ghazkull.

"Ghazzy's Waagh ability is typically discounted as it's not usable 100% of the [time]"

The Waagh is a player-activated ability that can be chosen to activate, essentially, whenever the player wants. It's completely wrong to discount this; if I have Ghaz and you have Meph there is no reason for me not to save the Waagh specifically for close combat with Meph. It's stupid to say that it's applicable in less than 16% of game turns; I choose when to apply it. It is going to be applicable in 100% of game turns where Ghaz and Meph initiate a combat.

You mean, "In my shooting phase". So it doesn't work if Meph charges you (unless you pop it early, in which case meph just waits it out). Like I said, it would be unwise in a gaming situation to save an army wide special movement ability for the fight between Meph and ghazzy. The correct thing would be to use the ability when it benefits your army on the whole the most and just use a boyz squad with a hidden powerfist to whittle Meph a bit. Regardless, Meph won/tied with Waagh up anyways.

This is where you go wrong. Ghazghkull's special Waagh! Can be called at ANY TIME, including during the opponent's assault phase. That automatically makes Ghazghkull Fearless and gives him a 2+ Invulnerable save.

In addition, Ghazghkull is fielded in a Battlewagon. Always. This gives him a huge assault range when he calls the Waagh; 12" move, 2" diembark, 2" base, 6" Waagh!, 1-6" charge = 23-28". That means that against Mephiston he has a pretty damn decent chance of getting the charge; the BA player will have to be very light on his feet to stay away, and if he's trying to his options are very limited. I would actually say that Ghazghkull is a lot more likely to get the charge, since he's in a transport and Meph is prancing around outside.

So, if Ghazzy gets the charge;

Round 1; Meph swings; 4 hits, 4 wounds, Ghazzy saves on a 2+ and suffers a fractional wound. Say he takes one.

Ghazzy swings; 7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 3 wounds (2.9166), Meph takes 3 wounds.

Round 2; Meph swings; 4 hits, 4 wounds, fractional wound taken. Total now for Ghazzy is less than 1.5; he has at least two, most likely three wounds remaining.

Ghazzy swings; 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, 2 wounds (2.0833). Meph bites the dust. Ghazghkull rampages onward, unfazed.

Please note that this assumes that Meph gets off all the psychic powers he needs to be as buff as possible. Ghazghkull still stomps him into the mud on the charge.

If they go to a third round, Meph scores another 4 wounds, and Ghazzy has to save with a 5+. Then Meph most likely (but not always) wins.


If Meph gets the charge, the odds are in his favor about 60/40; he wins in the third round with 1 wound remaining.


This is, of course, not counting the Nobz that are sitting in that BW with Ghazghkull, assuming that they have run off to trash the rest of the army while their boss has his fun. If they accompany him, Meph goes down hard.

Had to quickly reply that according to the new main rulebook FAQ if you disembark from any vehicle you may not use the fleet rule ie, you may not run and then assault.

First of all, that's FAQ, not errata, thus not "rules" per se (and yes, I know most people use the GW FAQs, I do so myself). Secondly, that's taken out of context. If the question asks about disembarking from non-oppen-topped, non-LR vehicles and assaulting with fleet, and GW answers that you're not allowed to do that, it doesn't mean that you're not allowed to do so when you've got explicit permission to do so!

Footsloggin wrote:

Gridge wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I dislike him for the simple reason he brought a stat line to an infantry sized model that has no place what so ever being on an infantry sized model. No 1" base should be T6 W4. There is no game balance justification for his stupidly high Iniative either.

All he did was throw Hero Hammer into even higher levels. Just look at some of the stats on some of the DE characters. The numbers are now reaching levels that should only be reserved for the Star Gods or ultimate warp horror levels. They have no place on what is really just lowly humanoid (genetically/cybernetically enhanced or not).

The fault lies not with Mephiston or others having high stat numbers it is with trying to squeeze godlike beings into a 10 point system and making them balance with the other forces. If you didn't have Greater Daemons and the like in the game this wouldn't be an issue, but who would want that much awesome excluded simply so the stat system would scale better?

Personally I'd like to see him at a higher points cost, somewhere in the 300 range. I should not have to see him in almost every BA list I play see... The fact is, that I have to focus SOOOO much of my fire/units on him, that I simply can't kill him AND the other 1200 points. Plus he can close the range of the table so fast, he puts bikers to shame...

And look, I'd rather have him on the 40mm base, and have him a terminator sized model, this way he can't obscure himself as well...

Cassuis is T6... I don't see many Vanilla players fielding him... This is because he is only W2. With a 3+ save, and FnP.

In all honesty, it seems like GW merged Cassius and Tirgris, gave him the best of both's statlines, gave the model special psychic powers, and Tigris' gear... BOOM!!! We have Mephiston!

From my experience there are going to be things in every army that make their way into nearly every list. Mephiston is indeed a beast but can also be very vulnerable, with no invulnerable save and not being able to be placed in a unit. Though, I normally play against Space Wolves so there are more than enough power weapons and heavy weapons (namely numerous missile launchers) to make life short and painful for him.

Most tournaments use the latest GW FAQ's as official rules.

If it does read that now, thank god they changed it, as earlier it had a question about being allowed to use fleet to assault out of a non assault/open topped vehicle, and GW's answer read:

"No, you may not fleet after disembarking" They were too lazy to add to the end "from a non open topped/assault vehicle" which would have fixed it.

Meaning that you couldnt fleet out of assault/open topped vehicles either -.- A nice nerf for deldar


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gridge wrote:

From my experience there are going to be things in every army that make their way into nearly every list. Mephiston is indeed a beast but can also be very vulnerable, with no invulnerable save and not being able to be placed in a unit. Though, I normally play against Space Wolves so there are more than enough power weapons and heavy weapons (namely numerous missile launchers) to make life short and painful for him.

Meph tends to laugh at ML's thanks to his 2+ saves, and tends to laugh at PW's thanks to t6. Its PF's and lascannons/plasma he fears.

Well, most TO's tend to be living, thinking beings that can actually figure out when something's clearly not right too, but I suppose there could always be some dork TO out there

Most every tourney I attend the TOs use the GW FAQs as rules. Actually never saw that not to be the case.

As a BA player, this guy is absolutely awesome, especially in a mech army.
He's hard to kill if used correctly and can dish out a lot of damage, like killing a C'tan in one round of cc.

shrike wrote:I think, that although the whole T6 thing is kinda wierd, That may be the reason behind no-invul- He can't be ID'd. That and libbies don't have invuls.
way to deal with mephiston? GK grand master. Hit him and he goes pop. NFW'd.

+1 QFT although a GK Grand Master knows Mephiston is a Daemon (read the fluff) so he would definitely perish under a NFW.

thats actually not hows its worded:

Q: Can a unit with the Fleet special rule assault after
disembarking from a transport? (p75)
A: No, it cannot. The Fleet rule simply removes the
prohibition of assaulting after running.

I 've faced him a few times... wasn't shocked. Then again, plasma cannon devs tend to laugh at a lot of the BA uber stuff as they get turned into goo. I imagine he winces after watching what they do to death company before pointing the barrels in his direction.

I think he's like most units, just gotta know how to use him, what you can and can't throw him at and that kinda thing.

Personally I don't find mephiston scary at all. Power Fist Termiators (in enough numbers) make mincemeat out of him.

For my daemons, seekers in large numbers and Daemon princes of tzeentch (with soul devourer) make him go bye-bye extremely quickly.

I have a deep hatred for this cancer of an HQ. He is so undercosted for what he can do. Look at Tigurus - 230pts for a libby that can use 3 powers a turn. Now give him stupid WS, STR, Toughness, and init and wounds for only 20 points and you have Mephiston, the Lord of Cheese.

My hatred started by watching a seasoned player at my local GW field this unit against a new player(IG). Meph basicly jumped across the field and killed everything this guy had. He also had a stupid smug smile on his face the whole time. He is also the most overplayed HQ at the store. 50% of games at 1000pts have this guy being used.

He is 100% a noob slayer. Anyone with a half a brain can focus rescourses to take this clown out. His lack of Invul save (plus self wounding with plasma and perils) really kills him.

scubasteve04 wrote:I have a deep hatred for this cancer of an HQ. He is so undercosted for what he can do. Look at Tigurus - 230pts for a libby that can use 3 powers a turn. Now give him stupid WS, STR, Toughness, and init and wounds for only 20 points and you have Mephiston, the Lord of Cheese.

My hatred started by watching a seasoned player at my local GW field this unit against a new player(IG). Meph basicly jumped across the field and killed everything this guy had. He also had a stupid smug smile on his face the whole time. He is also the most overplayed HQ at the store. 50% of games at 1000pts have this guy being used.

He is 100% a noob slayer. Anyone with a half a brain can focus rescourses to take this clown out. His lack of Invul save (plus self wounding with plasma and perils) really kills him.

I think you are making a bad comparison as Tigurious is ridiculously overpriced for what he does. At least Tigurious can hide in a unit though which Mephiston cannot. I guess it all a matter fo opinion though (yours and mine). Everytime I face Mephiston he kills a unit (maybe 2 if he's lucky) and then dies in shooting. Every time. I think some people just need play and adapt on how to deal with him. He's powerful but not broken. Every codex has the tools they need to deal with I think.

He is powerful but not broken. The personal hate is just from the fact that he is used so much at my games workshop.