I've tried to write this a few times now, and each time, it doesn't sound quite right. so, I'm just going to let it ramble if it must.

Also, I have nothing against Space Wolf players, either old-timers, or bandwagon jumpers. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play the strongest army in a competitive environment. I'm also not saying that Space Wolves can't be beat. Far from it. I believe that a good player with a decent list can beat a decent player with a good list about half the time.

That said, I'm getting fairly bored with the game lately, and whenever I try to figure out why, it comes back to Space Wolves. (And, sure, Mech Guard is strong too, but really, Mech Guard has the same vulnerability that Guard has always had - if you close with them and punch them in the mouth, they fold).

So, there are two things going on. The first is that the Space Wolves are just that much better than other MEQ codexes out, and that MEQ armies are always well represented. In the current meched environment, they have the best set of tools at the lowest prices. They can field 15 missiles for less than other armies can field 12, and target three extra enemy units/turn with them. They can do a gunline with razorbacks, or a drive-by list with rhinos and two specials/squad. Their basic troops get 3 attacks/man when charged, compared with 1 attack/man for a vanilla marine. Space Wolf psychic defense is 16% more effective than any other marine's, for the same cost.

Sure, they may not have all the toys (Thunderfires, Ironclads, whatever) or be able to use some of the tricks (combat squads), but point-for-point, the Space Wolf core is cheaper and solider than any other army, and allows you to take the list in a number of different directions. If you like Deathstars, Thunderwolves are right up there among the toughest in the game, especially with a couple of characters. If you like gunlines, you have the razorwall. If you like precision assaults, you can drop-pod. Logan-wing is out there too.

These aren't that bad, looking at their abilities. Other armies can field gunlines, or deathstars. But we come back to the cheap core, and it's a different animal. We figured out how to beat nidzilla, how to beat seer councils, or nob bikers. But what if these were backed up by 15 missiles/turn on top of everything else? How do you beat the codex that's thing isn't that it has some new trick, but, rather, that its trick is simply being cheaper and more effective than your army?

None of this is new. Read the blogs out there... although, that may be part of the problem - and why I see the same thing game-after-game. List is the same, just a new player. So, not only is this codex powerful, but it's also widely played. Often to the point where anyone with MEQ models is running them as Space Wolves lately.

Which leads to the second part of the problem. This codex has hard counters to a number of other codexes. JotWW comes to mind. When the new Nid codex came out, there was all sorts of noise about how cool a Tervigon list could be. From what I can tell, this hasn't happened. Why not? JotWW simply owns Tervigons. (In fact, taking this a step further, the ever-present 15 long-fangs pretty much own new nids too. They can drop the big bugs without breaking a sweat, and instant-kill the mid-sized bugs efficiently) That's a new codex, and from my experience, it hasn't developed much because of how vulnerable it is to the most-played army out there.

There are others suffering the same fate. I'd love to play my Nurgle-daemons again, but the Wolves make them an unwinnable option. I'm sure there are others out there that are being shelved because they simply cannot exist in a field that's 33% comprised of Jaws, 15 cheap missiles, and whatever rounds out the list.

In essence, we're seeing more Wolves, because they're clearly the best MEQ option available, and fewer other things at all because of the hard counters that the wolves present. It's possible that my analysis of why this is happening is wrong, but the fact that it is happening is backed up by data, at least in the events I'm playing in lately. And it seems to be happening at many of the large events that I've read reports from.

I'm not one of these super-old-time players who can cite figures dating back to Rogue Trader. But in the five or six years that I've been playing, I don't recall seeing such uniformity in what is being run. When I started playing, you had traits and doctrines for marines and guard, and each chaos legion had its own flavour. The eldar had five different craftworld lists available to them, and even orks had three variants (Codex, Speed Freaks, and Feral). GWs design process has consistently removed options over the last few years, with the result that every codex can be approached in a 'take the strongest stuff' method, and Space Wolves simply have the strongest stuff.

The net effect, for me at least, is an increasing level of boredom with the game. Even in my casual games, I'm seeing a lot of the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality. I wonder if this is what the Fantasy players were going through at the end of 7th ed, where you either played Daemons, or Vampires, or got screwed.

I agree with every thing you said. The fact that they get counter-attack and acute senses for the same price units (generalizing) as codex marines isn't that fair. Not to mention some of their units are cheaper and better, like Devastators.

I've even gone to lengths to try out Blood Angels lists which is supposedly more unfair that Space Wolves, but I disagree. I think I've only ever fully beaten Space Wolves once, it was in a Capture and Control mission. I've tied about 50% of games that were NOT kill points, against them. I've never won a kill point mission against them.

I play multiple armies. Mostly IG.

I think you've nicely summed up what a lot of people have been thinking (or in a lot of cases, saying). I'm an old Space Wolf player and I missed the last edition of the game, after reading things on here and hearing things being said at the FLGS I'm very very reluctant to field my old army. I've got myself a Nid army now as well, and I would much rather field that than my beloved wolves purely due to the stigma that space wolf players now have to put up with - and it seems that that stigma is rightly earned.

There's always been an "I win" army to field in 40k if memory serves, but it just seems that these days far more people play for the wins than they do for the fluff.

Just for the record, my wolves have no missile launchers, only a single razorback and no rune priests. It's a purely fluff based army, and I'm still reluctant to field it anywhere other than in private friendly games.

Why are you reluctant to field it anywhere but private games? Because it'll get smushed or you'll get the inevitable "lol look at this SW army"?

@red do you find this mentality more in tourneys or overall across the board? What about your local gaming group (friends, LFGS etc)?

I agree with you. The army simply has too much. I think Blood Angels come close in the amount of nonsense they can bring to the table. As you said, there aren't really any drawbacks. There is very little that normal Marines can do that can't be done better in the Space Wolves codex. Really, the same can be said about Blood Angels. These codices should have been divergent marines. They ended up with Marines ++

While some may think JoTWW is not a big deal; it really depends on what army you are. Tyrannids absolutely cower to this. Tervigons are pretty essential, and are killed on a 92% passing psychic test followed by a 66% chance of falling in a hole. The codex just has so much. Long Fangs are amazing. Sure, they have no ablative wounds, but they pump out so much firepower for 140 points. Thunderwolves are just too powerful and sleaze wound allocation. Wolf Lords are amazing. Wolf Guard get their gear for a substantial discount. Hell, they are already incredible cheap for what they are. Even Lone Wolves are a steal.

The army has too much. It's not unbeatable by any means, but it certainly is a top 3 book along with IG and BA with a decent drop off over the next tier of armies in terms of flexibility and cost.

You're absolutely right. Balance is a major issue in 40k. Some armies are simply better than other. And, most armies only have 1 or 2 builds that are viable for them. It ends up causing games to become really repetitive.

I'd suggest you stop focusing on the tournament scene. Play some games with friends or at your FLGS where both you and your opponent intentionally take non-optimized lists.

My favorite games are taking foot-slogging Eldar (massed Guardians, sometimes without a Farseer and with a PL!) against some other fun, non-optimized armies. There are tons of cool, fun units out there that people simply never see because they aren't viable at the tournament level.

But that's kind of the point. These blogs out there, that tell people how to win, and what to field, and what is good, they're read by more than just tournament players. It is spilling over into other play.

Pick-up games at the local store are more likely to have Space Wolves involved. (Often, painted in the colours of some other chapter, again, because the blog-o-sphere has pretty much said this is cool).

That said, it's also really difficult to organize games with 'non-optimized' fun lists. Different people understand that phrase very differently, and you can get wildly variant strength levels as a result. This is really a completely different topic. Not saying it isn't worth trying, but it's not as easy to achieve as it sounds.

I disagree. If Space Wolves seem over-whelming, it's because people haven't put their backs into beating them yet.

In particular I think that the Space Wolves have weaknesses that people used to playing Space Marines are not inclined to exploit.

Take Counter-Attack, for example. The Space Wolves have to pass a Leadership Test first. Actually, the Space Wolves need to be charged first. I've noticed that Space Marines tend to be more effective if they stay out of combat (at least those they can't win easily over a game turn) and so you want to charge them to neuter their shooting. With Space Wolves you want to shoot them.

Long Fangs, well, I've talked enough about the weaknesses of Long Fangs. Needless to say I'm still surprised that they're considered a threat when so much can drop in and destroy six Space Marines so easily.

Razorbacks are also a source of consternation for me, not because they're some terrible scourge, but because people are afraid of lots of AV11 vehicles. Heavy Bolters can take them down! Maybe it's just because I play Chaos Space Marines who can take Autocannons out the yin-yang region, but I just don't see them as a threat commensurate with their points value.

Likewise Rune Priests are just as useless as Space Marine Librarians in close combat, and have less useful psychic powers. While they have some nice shooting attacks, you can get similar firepower for cheaper elsewhere in the list, and if you take them, then you can't take the other, less easily killed characters. Maxing out on HQ is nice, but even armies where you can only take two, it's often wiser to just take one and devote the points to more of the units that actually do work.

If players are defaulting to Space Wolves, it's because they don't get the advantages and disadvantages that Space Wolves offer, and the community doesn't either.

I'll start with a story and end with a question.

My friends got me into 40K about a year and a half ago; and I've been a pretty big nerd, so I knew a little bit about the game and setting (RAWR GRIMDARK SPACE!)
I bought my first set right when 5th ed came out (I didn't even know there was a new edition lol) so I bought SM because one of my professors suggested them for a newb (would've played Tau, but two friends already had them). So I ended up buying the shiny new books without knowing how shiny they were. Cut to the Wolves codex being released a while later, my friends and I were playing Apoc and I had a SM list all figured out; so my friend Jimmy says "Hey Bojo, why don't you proxy these new wolves? They match your playstyle a lot better." (I've played like maybe 5 games up to this point) So I end up getting a pretty solid list made for me, and having absolutely no idea what I was doing I ended up holding an entire side of the board and utterly shutting down the Ork player (I owe my life to Logan Grimnar to this day).
I bought the codex, bough more minis, and learned me some fluff and after signing up on Dakka, actually learning how to play them!
/story

So my question is, do you guys think that Wolves are going to stay a contender for the rest of the edition? Will power creep/new codecies bring anything that stops ML/RB spam or TWC rushes? I mean as an utter newb this army (and yes, help from an experienced player) let me hold against a much better player than myself for five turns in Apocalypse.

Nothing is for certain.

They might stay the strongest codex around until they're next updated, they might even be overtaken by the next codex release. It comes down to playing what you like and not relying on how broken the codex is.


I don't really see to many SW armies around, I guess the bandwagoners didn't hang on to them long enough to figure it out before latching onto the Blood Angels. Although the worst form of it I have seen is with the new Dark Eldar release, but generally it isn't really much of a problem as you would think. I've only fought against SW maybe once or twice, one time with SoB in a small point game and another at a higher level with Eldar.

I'm not sure about the Eldar one, but the SoB managed to win. Even with the dodgy wording on the weather guy's powers getting around the SoB's psychic defence. But acts of faith are pretty cool when used correctly.

I love the Space Wolves, they are my main army (and 2nd(!) favourite) and always have been. I could dip in and out of other armies and phases but I'd always come back to the Space Wolves. What I love most about the Space Wolves is their character and their fluff.

HOWEVER I hate their current situation within the game. It's as you said, they're too strong, they're my favourite army but I hate them within their current Codex. I love the heroic nature of the Space Wolves but their current army list really annoys me. I also avoid playing them, my favourite army, because of the reputation attached. I no longer actively offer tactical or army list advice for Space Wolves as there is no real point or need. They aren't hard to understand and you've got everyone and their mothers claiming to be an expert on the matter. I've created my tactica(s) (one WiP) and am leaving it at that. It's like teaching someone how to use a gun in a knife fight, there's no point or need.

As I've said, they're my main army, I love the Space Wolves but there current state really annoys me. I actually have to be quite ashamed of my preferred army. I don't run Razorback/Rune Priest/Long Fang lists but other people won't necessarily know this, they won't know I've been with the Space Wolves long before their new Codex. Despite my not being so, the perception would automatically be me as being a band-wagon jumper or WAAC costs player where there really, REALLY isn't the case.

When you feel ashamed of being a Space Wolf fan, you know something's wrong. I like them for their back-ground and story, not for there in-game ability.

Gijouhei wrote:I think you've nicely summed up what a lot of people have been thinking (or in a lot of cases, saying). I'm an old Space Wolf player *snip*, after reading things on here and hearing things being said at the FLGS I'm very very reluctant to field my old army. I've got myself a Nid army now as well, and I would much rather field that than my beloved wolves purely due to the stigma that space wolf players now have to put up with - and it seems that that stigma is rightly earned.

I completely agree with what he has said here.

Redbeard wrote:So, there are two things going on. The first is that the Space Wolves are just that much better than other MEQ codexes out, and that MEQ armies are always well represented. In the current meched environment, they have the best set of tools at the lowest prices. They can field 15 missiles for less than other armies can field 12, and target three extra enemy units/turn with them. They can do a gunline with razorbacks, or a drive-by list with rhinos and two specials/squad. Their basic troops get 3 attacks/man when charged, compared with 1 attack/man for a vanilla marine. Space Wolf psychic defense is 16% more effective than any other marine's, for the same cost.

Sure, they may not have all the toys (Thunderfires, Ironclads, whatever) or be able to use some of the tricks (combat squads), but point-for-point, the Space Wolf core is cheaper and solider than any other army, and allows you to take the list in a number of different directions. If you like Deathstars, Thunderwolves are right up there among the toughest in the game, especially with a couple of characters. If you like gunlines, you have the razorwall. If you like precision assaults, you can drop-pod. Logan-wing is out there too.

These aren't that bad, looking at their abilities. Other armies can field gunlines, or deathstars. But we come back to the cheap core, and it's a different animal. We figured out how to beat nidzilla, how to beat seer councils, or nob bikers. But what if these were backed up by 15 missiles/turn on top of everything else? How do you beat the codex that's thing isn't that it has some new trick, but, rather, that its trick is simply being cheaper and more effective than your army?

None of this is new. Read the blogs out there... although, that may be part of the problem - and why I see the same thing game-after-game. List is the same, just a new player. So, not only is this codex powerful, but it's also widely played. Often to the point where anyone with MEQ models is running them as Space Wolves lately.

In essence, we're seeing more Wolves, because they're clearly the best MEQ option available, and fewer other things at all because of the hard counters that the wolves present. It's possible that my analysis of why this is happening is wrong, but the fact that it is happening is backed up by data, at least in the events I'm playing in lately. And it seems to be happening at many of the large events that I've read reports from.

The net effect, for me at least, is an increasing level of boredom with the game. Even in my casual games, I'm seeing a lot of the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality. I wonder if this is what the Fantasy players were going through at the end of 7th ed, where you either played Daemons, or Vampires, or got screwed.

I've cut your OP (a very well articulated, not rant-like at all OP I may add) down to the bits I feel I can best relate to and agree with. It's not that it's the most powerful Codex, it's just that unlike most others, there's no defining weakness. Every other Codex has some weakness or another, Dark Eldar are Fragile, Tau and IG suck in CC, Blood Angels are over-costed... the list goes on. But Space Wolves don't really suffer from this, they are good at range, close combat and close quarters and add in their extra high-quality (eg. Wolf Guard, TWC and Long Fangs) units and CHEAP COST to boot and they have little to no flaws. They really are the easiest pick up and play army.
They don't have a Mephiston or Swarmlord, they can't spam FNP or Furious Charge, they can't produce a large number of fast moving units and vehicles and they can't produce a stupid amount of firepower or tanks quite like the IG. But they are still so powerful that they can stand up to all of this and more. They aren't OTT like the Blood Angels Codex (not necessarily in game) but the Space Wolf armies really benefit from, as you've said, uber-cheap, uber-poweful troops and similarly cheap yet powerful elite units.

I think some of the reasoning behind it in terms of creation was that in order for the player to be able to effectively field 4 HQ's (as intended) and lots of expensive characters, that they still need to be able to afford (cheap) troops. However this meant that if the player went for the cheap HQ then they could get access to all these other under-costed non-HQ options with no down-side attached.

If they didn't have Razorbacks, Grey Hunters would play exactly like Grey Hunters should. Bombing in there, blasting the crap out of the enemy at close range then receiving the charge from the remnants, 2 special weapons and counter-charge suits this. But 2x CCW and for only 15pts makes even this under-costed. If the very heart of your army is dirt-cheap then the rest of it can easily fall into place.

It's as you said, they're not necessarily the 'best' army, it's just they don't have any real discernible flaws and now they are so, so common and so often similar to one another. Most competitive Space Wolf armies show a real lack of imagination, you only have to stroll into the army lists forum to see this and many players actively encouraging this (Jabbdo) which as you have said, really stagnates the game and Space Wolf armies in general.

As has been said, they really are the most powerful MeQ codex. It's not so much that they do everything better than other armies, it's just there's very little flaws to them particularly with their respective price. Now it also makes many Space Wolf players (the old-timers or non-competitive in particular) unjustly stigmatised and as you can probably tell, that really peeves me. I freakin' hate my own Codex! I'd rather have Codex CSM than this, I really would.

Well Said Redbeard, I think I've displayed my only feelings and support to your claim and subject.

Note 1: I still believe Mech IG to be the most competitive army build there is, but as a WHOLE I reckon SW's are more powerful.

Note 2: In my tactica I opened saying how Space Wolves struggle to accommodate or excel with ranged firepower due to limited access to heavy weapons (only Long Fangs, Razorbacks etc.) and since seeing the change to this usage of Space Wolves I still haven't changed it as it doesn't suit them and it is simple encourage of 'spam' or a lack of imagination which I won't endorse.

Note 3: For me, one of the worst things is the stigma being carried over from competitive play. I can understand people disliking Space Wolves competitively, but when the stigma is then attached to simply playing for fun, it's really spoiled it IMHO.

Nurglitch wrote:If players are defaulting to Space Wolves, it's because they don't get the advantages and disadvantages that Space Wolves offer, and the community doesn't either.

Because whatever weakness they have is easily compensated by how cheap they are.

I often run a 1,500 Sternguard list with Pedro Kantor...

If I switch to Space Wolves, my Tactical become Grey Hunter, my Sternguard become Wolf Guard and I take a 175ish Wolf Lord... Ironically, the 175 points wolf lord will be a much better CC beast than Pedro Kantor too.

What do I lose? Orbital Bombardment, Inspiring Presence (which doesn't matter since Space Wolves all already +1A due to extra CC) and some scoring units.

But you know what's crazy? I end up with around 120 free points to play with! This is with the 'same' list! So I can play around with some points here... maybe get myself some Thunder Wolf Cavalry or some Grey Hunter in a Razorback to make up for my lose of scoring units.

Tarkand:

You'd also lose Stubborn, Inspiring Presence doesn't require a Leadership test, and Orbital Bombardment is a pretty hefty loss. Not to mention the loss of scoring units without Pedro is...severe. I don't see how freeing up 120pts improves the list while losing all that.

Something I've noticed about units like Long Fangs is that they're the opposite of a Death Star, in that they fold like a house of cards. People say "Oh, they're cheap", but if I can kill a unit every turn, they're really expensive.

But failing the Counter-Attack leadership test doesn't give them a negative. They just become regular marines with different options. However, with their high LD they don't fail that often. It's like saying, "Here have something extra 3/4ths of the time for no additional cost."

If you measure strictly from tournament build lists that are out there these days, you are correct. The Space Wolves have some very nice toys at some very affordable prices.

However, I think we can all agree that the game isn't balanced, and if we weren't complaining about Space Wolves, it would be about something else...

I'm an old, long-time Space Wolf player and in my humble opinion the reason that people complain about Space Wolf armies is because there isn't a decent army comp scoring system to rate them correctly. It used to be back in 3rd edition that when you went to a tournament, you were graded on your army composition and asked a series of questions to see if your list was too powerful or not. This system worked "Ok" back in 3rd edition, because the slate was cleaned and everyone played from a 3rd edition book.

These days with 5th edition, you have codex books extending from 3rd edition all the way to last month. The problem that creates is that you can no longer use the same comp scoring sheet to judge every army. You actually need a different scoring sheet for just about every codex. Or at the very least, a few questions that would vary depending on the codex that was used...

Please don't see this as an attempt for me to defend my beloved Space Wolves. I freely admit that 15 Long Fang missile launchers that can split fire and cost just 420 points is broken. Although so are Death Rollers on ork Battlewagon spams, Dark Eldar armies with 30+ darklances, and "Leaf Blower" Imperial Guard lists. None of those builds are particular fun to play against if you don't have the tools in your army to deal with them...

So in order to keep people from bringing those lists, and encourage players to show up to tournaments with armies like Necrons, Witch Hunters, and Daemon Hunters, you need to do something to tone it down.... I think that Jervis and GW realize that, and it was the main reason behind the "Throne of Skulls" tournament packet. While it is a noble effort to try to equal the playing field, it is like trying to build a car with an adjustable wrench, when you really need a complete socket set.

Nurglitch wrote:Tarkand:

You'd also lose Stubborn, Inspiring Presence doesn't require a Leadership test, and Orbital Bombardment is a pretty hefty loss. Not to mention the loss of scoring units without Pedro is...severe. I don't see how freeing up 120pts improves the list while losing all that.

Something I've noticed about units like Long Fangs is that they're the opposite of a Death Star, in that they fold like a house of cards. People say "Oh, they're cheap", but if I can kill a unit every turn, they're really expensive.

Orbital Bombardment is a pretty poor ability which is extremely unreliable and requires Pedro and his accompanying squad not to move for one turn, far from a hefty lose. If I could take Pedro for 150 points without OB, I would every time.

Inspring Presence gives my guys within 12'' inch of Kantor an extra attack, which puts them at A2... which is equal to a run of the mill basic space wolves (who still cost less points btw). In short, inspiring presence - which only work on a limited range - makes my Marines equal to Space Wolf BEFORE you factor in counter attack, so you really can't compare both.

It's more about stubborn vs Counter-Attack... Stubborn is not always a good thing, they are time when you'd rather break then stay there and fight to the death. Not to mention that stubborn has the same flaw as Counter-Attack: It's a leadership roll, if you roll a 12, you're running anyway.

And what's better than not having a penalty when you LOSE CC? Winning CC because you have an extra attack.

The only tangible lost is the lost of a scoring unit... but this could easily be made up by splitting my Grey Hunter into 5 man squad with Razorback (instead of 10 man Tactical squad with Rhino) and the extra 120 points easily cover the upgrade cost. I end up with more scoring units this way (and a ton of las cannon spam too).

Nurglitch wrote:Tarkand:

You'd also lose Stubborn, Inspiring Presence doesn't require a Leadership test, and Orbital Bombardment is a pretty hefty loss. Not to mention the loss of scoring units without Pedro is...severe. I don't see how freeing up 120pts improves the list while losing all that.

Something I've noticed about units like Long Fangs is that they're the opposite of a Death Star, in that they fold like a house of cards. People say "Oh, they're cheap", but if I can kill a unit every turn, they're really expensive.

120 points gives you 8 Grey Hunters, a decent scoring unit (or 5 GH and a Rhino).
Agree that Long Fangs are Glass Cannons, just MEQs with big(ger) guns.

Redbeard wrote:I've tried to write this a few times now, and each time, it doesn't sound quite right. so, I'm just going to let it ramble if it must.

I've tried to compose a response and have had to start over a couple of times too. It's an odd subject. I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think the SW codex is going to damage 40k significantly.

In my small, old group we had one SW player. When the new codex was out we were happy he could play a current list and get away from using the vanilla dex for his wolves. No one else picked up the wolves because we weren't really interested and didn't want to have SW playing against SW or really any battle using the same codex on both sides of the table. I could beat the new wolves with my old BA and even occasionally with Tau, but got crushed when I used the new nids - and he never used Jaws. We didn't look at the wolves being generally overpowered so much as they were just the perfect counter to the nids.

Like other folks I've read all the blog blather about tiers and competitive armies and how SW are on top. I just haven't seen it all that much first hand. I've played against SW once in the three tourneys I've played in since the codex came out. Maybe I've just gotten lucky.

In any case I think the SW Effect, to the extent is really is a problem, will be self-correcting for these reasons:

1. I don't think SW players will want to play against other SW players all the time. I think they'd like to have a mix of diverse opponents just like everyone else. I think they will adopt different armies instead of just dropping out.

2. Stigma. At some point people will tire of facing wolves all the time and the SW players will get a reputation for being beardy gits. Don't most people roll their eyes at a blue/green/grey SW army already?

This is just speculation, but I know these are the reasons I've largely stopped playing my BA for the time being.

Wolflord Patrick wrote:These days with 5th edition, you have codex books extending from 3rd edition all the way to last month. The problem that creates is that you can no longer use the same comp scoring sheet to judge every army. You actually need a different scoring sheet for just about every codex. Or at the very least, a few questions that would vary depending on the codex that was used...

Space Wolves compare very favorably to some Codex who are also 5th edition.

Patience.

Mech IG was ridiculous when it came out, and still is. The longfang spam as a cheap unit was needed to counter mech IG's dominance. Dark Eldar are now something of a hard counter to Space Wolves.

In the game of Rock paper scissors...


Space Wolves = Rock
Mech IG = Scissors
Dark Eldar = Paper

36" splinter cannons that can pour out such a volume of fire that longfangs are evaporated before getting a chance to fire. On the flip side the vehices are weak and I still don't know how to answer Guard.

Tarkand wrote:

Wolflord Patrick wrote:These days with 5th edition, you have codex books extending from 3rd edition all the way to last month. The problem that creates is that you can no longer use the same comp scoring sheet to judge every army. You actually need a different scoring sheet for just about every codex. Or at the very least, a few questions that would vary depending on the codex that was used...

Space Wolves compare very favorably to some Codex who are also 5th edition.

Oh, I agree. Which is why I think there should be comp scoring sheets made for each, individual codex. (Or at least a variance of questions for a specific codex.)

Is it bad that I am now tooling around a World Eater list using the Space Wolf codex because I can actually have the theme force I want?

Nurglitch wrote:I disagree. If Space Wolves seem over-whelming, it's because people haven't put their backs into beating them yet.

You're missing the point. It's not that Space Wolves cannot be beat - I said as much in the original post. It's that they're omnipresent, and present hard counters to other lists.

In particular I think that the Space Wolves have weaknesses that people used to playing Space Marines are not inclined to exploit.

Take Counter-Attack, for example. The Space Wolves have to pass a Leadership Test first. Actually, the Space Wolves need to be charged first. I've noticed that Space Marines tend to be more effective if they stay out of combat (at least those they can't win easily over a game turn) and so you want to charge them to neuter their shooting. With Space Wolves you want to shoot them.

Okay, so they need to pass a Ld test in order to benefit from their -free- upgrade ability. Big deal, Ld tests aren't hard to pass, and even if they fail it, they get double the attacks that a vanilla marine gets. It wasn't like they paid any points to have counterattack, so on the turns that it doesn't work, oh no, they're just fighting an even battle. I'm not sure that having a 28% chance to lose a free upgrade is a weakness. Perhaps this is more adequately expressed as they get a 72% chance of getting a free extra attack. (And, if you attach a wolfguard, this percent jumps to 83%.

So, your point about shooting them instead... sounds good, but there are few units out there that can outshoot any marines in a close-range battle, especially marines in cover. Some specialist units come to mind, as do things like plague marines, but you have to assume the space wolf player has a brain too. His guys have 2 attacks each. If you want to shoot him, he wants to assault you.

Long Fangs, well, I've talked enough about the weaknesses of Long Fangs. Needless to say I'm still surprised that they're considered a threat when so much can drop in and destroy six Space Marines so easily.

Well, first, if Long Fangs have a weakness, it is a weakness shared by most other heavy weapon specialists. I mean, Devastators can buy ablative wounds, but short of buffing the squad with an upgraded sgt and a handful of men (drastically increasing the cost of the unit), you're still a unit that assault specialists can knock out easily. Sure, there are ways to kill them, but these aren't weaknesses unique to Long Fangs, they're generic weaknesses. And, as Long Fangs are cheaper than their equivalent number in most armies, the Wolf player has more resources to dedicate to preventing you from going after these weaknesses. Again, it's not that they can't be neutralized, it's that neutralizing them has to consider the rest of the force.

So you're dropping in to destroy them, you're exposed to them for at least one turn, and that's an average of 10 hits somewhere. Then, you're hoping that you don't mishap, that your opponent hasn't protected them with some sort of castling deployment...

Razorbacks are also a source of consternation for me, not because they're some terrible scourge, but because people are afraid of lots of AV11 vehicles. Heavy Bolters can take them down! Maybe it's just because I play Chaos Space Marines who can take Autocannons out the yin-yang region, but I just don't see them as a threat commensurate with their points value.

I tend to agree about the razorbacks being a poor approach, but it's hard to argue with the results I've seen achieved with them.

Likewise Rune Priests are just as useless as Space Marine Librarians in close combat, and have less useful psychic powers. While they have some nice shooting attacks, you can get similar firepower for cheaper elsewhere in the list, and if you take them, then you can't take the other, less easily killed characters. Maxing out on HQ is nice, but even armies where you can only take two, it's often wiser to just take one and devote the points to more of the units that actually do work.

The strength of a priest/librarian isn't mean to be combat, and you hide them in squads to prevent them from dying. The strength of the priest/librarian is as a support character, providing utility and defense. I don't know how you can think that the Rune Priest has weaker powers though. Jaws is an unbelievably good hard counter. It tackles things that would otherwise cause massive problems for an army. It can snipe models, which allows the wolves to neutralize things like Powerklaw nobs, Forcefield Meks, or Painboyz in an ork army. It can just zap six wound monstrous creatures in a Nid army. No save, no Eternal Warrior, just poof. Then there is the average 3.5 autocannon shots which is a solid all-around power, and then a couple others if you need them. Who has a better selection? Vanilla Marines have Null Zone, another excellent Hard Counter, but I don't think that it has the same game-breaking impact, even against Chaos Daemons, that Jaws has against orks or nids. I can accept the argument that the Rune Priest's powers are equally as good as other armies, but not worse. So then you come to their other utility, psychic defense, and here, again, they're just outright better. Stopping a power on a 4+ is better than having to beat your opponent in a roll-off.

If players are defaulting to Space Wolves, it's because they don't get the advantages and disadvantages that Space Wolves offer, and the community doesn't either.

I disagree. I think that players are defaulting towards Space Wolves precisely because they do get the advantages and disadvantages that Wolves offer. In the current metagame, I see the Wolves advantages trumping those of the other armies. You have, essentially, a shooty army with a high first-strike capability, the ability to take a charge very well, and the ability to field a top-class deathstar, if that's your thing.

I picked up Space Wolves about 6 months after they came out, and have played them until this month, when I started using Blood Angels. I've never had to deal with any sort of stigma for playing Wolves, and I think its strange that there is one.

I lose plenty with my Wolves, though, it could always be that I'm bad at the game, though, It could be my list. I only ever take one unit of Long Fangs, or one Rune Priest (who usually never shoots because he just sits in a LR to be an anti-psyker bubble against my lash spamming friend), though usually I prefer two MM/HF land Speeders. The base list has 4 Razorbacks, which I'm not sure qualifies as "spam."

I dunno. At 2000 points, would you consider this a list that deserves stigma?

Space Wolves
Ragnar's Great Comapny

HQ:
Ragnar Blackmane

Wolf Priest
-Wolf Tooth Necklace
-Wolf Tail Talisman
-Melta-Bomb

Elites:
Wolf Guard Pack
-4x Models
-4x Frost Blades
-4x Melta Bombs

Troops:
Grey Hunters Pack
-5x Models
-Meltagun
-Wolf Banner

Razorback
-T-L Lascannon
-Storm Bolter

Grey Hunters Pack
-5x Models
-Meltagun
-Wolf Banner

Razorback
-T-L Lascannon
-Storm Bolter

Grey Hunters Pack
-5x Models
-Flamer
-Wolf Banner

Razorback
-T-L Assault Cannon

Grey Hunters Pack
-5x Models
-Flamer
-Wolf Banner

Razorback
-T-L Assault Cannon

Blood Claws Pack
-10x Models
-Flamer

Fast Attack:

Heavy Support:
Land Raider Crusader
-Extra Armor
-Multi-Melta

Long Fangs Pack
-6x Models
-5x Missile Launchers
-Power Weapon

Razorback
-TL Plasmagun+Lascannon

I don;t like to step on peoples toes, so would you be pissed off at this list if you faced it at a tourney?

Dashofpepper wrote:Patience.

Mech IG was ridiculous when it came out, and still is. The longfang spam as a cheap unit was needed to counter mech IG's dominance. Dark Eldar are now something of a hard counter to Space Wolves.

In the game of Rock paper scissors...


Space Wolves = Rock
Mech IG = Scissors
Dark Eldar = Paper

36" splinter cannons that can pour out such a volume of fire that longfangs are evaporated before getting a chance to fire. On the flip side the vehices are weak and I still don't know how to answer Guard.

I'm sure you've tested this, but is that possible both going first or second, or do you need the first shots? I haven't seen anyone play the new Dark Eldar yet (it's still early) but as you said their vehicles are weak, and seem like they'd be easy targets for the missile spam.


And perhaps you're right, and time will move on (or, at the least, everyone else will get upgrades to be on the same level). But hoping for the future isn't exactly the best way to want to keep participating in the present. Like I said, five years ago, even small tournament would have a vast number of different armies and approaches, and it wasn't a three-pony race with rocks and scissors. As they've consolidated all the sub-lists together into the larger 'pick whatever you want' codex styles, the more the game has focused on only the best elements. A good example of this is that, before, if you wanted scoring plague marines, you didn't get obliterators, or Slaanesh HQs.

Arschbombe wrote:
1. I don't think SW players will want to play against other SW players all the time. I think they'd like to have a mix of diverse opponents just like everyone else. I think they will adopt different armies instead of just dropping out.

2. Stigma. At some point people will tire of facing wolves all the time and the SW players will get a reputation for being beardy gits. Don't most people roll their eyes at a blue/green/grey SW army already?

I guess this really depends on the nature of your gaming circle. If it's a small circle where people mostly play for fun, I can agree. But if it's a competitive circle, where winning actually matters (say, a tournament), people aren't going to drop a winning army because it wins too much. Just the opposite, people will adopt the winning army because it wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Commander Endova wrote:I picked up Space Wolves about 6 months after they came out, and have played them until this month, when I started using Blood Angels. I've never had to deal with any sort of stigma for playing Wolves, and I think its strange that there is one.

I lose plenty with my Wolves, though, it could always be that I'm bad at the game, though, It could be my list. I only ever take one unit of Long Fangs, or one Rune Priest (who usually never shoots because he just sits in a LR to be an anti-psyker bubble against my lash spamming friend), though usually I prefer two MM/HF land Speeders. The base list has 4 Razorbacks, which I'm not sure qualifies as "spam."

I dunno. At 2000 points, would you consider this a list that deserves stigma?
...

I don;t like to step on peoples toes, so would you be pissed off at this list if you faced it at a tourney?

Not at all, but this isn't the sort of list that you see at tournaments.

Here's the tournament wolf list base:

6 long fangs, missiles (possibly a lascannon or two)
6 long fangs, missiles (possibly a lascannon or two)
6 long fangs, missiles (possibly a lascannon or two)
1+ Rune priest w/ Jaws, living lightning, murderous hurricane in various combinations
2+ Grey hunters w/ some transport (different based on approach)
1+ Wolf Guard (usually just squad leaders w/ combi weapons to compliment the grey hunters)

From there, people either go deathstar, with a big unit of thunderwolves, + 1/2 thunderwolf lords, or loganwing, which replaces the grey hunters with more wolf guard, and features cyclone missiles, or more-mech, with extra las/plas razorbacks for all units. Sometimes, scouts are added to handle backfield threats.

At least, that's my experience.

I have been playing 40k for 7 years now, going from late third through today.

I have to say that the game is much better balanced and diverse then it ever was, from a competitive stand point, and I think that fact really upsets people's understanding of competitive play in this current edition, because it is increasingly harder to come up with a list that can handle all comers, and you throw in the utility knife of the Space Wolf codex, and you can easily have the perception that the codex having an unfair advantage.

I play Blood Angels, in an area that has a tournament at a different store every week almost, and a large variety of players. Some stores I go to, the majority of the players are space wolves, among our local group, Space Wolves have much less impact, because we have learned how to beat them enough, that their impact has considerably lessened.

Part of the way to counter the "Space Wolf Effect" is to just take into consideration their almost "default" tactics. You know that you will be probably facing a Space Wolf army with Long Fangs and a Rune Priest eventually, so it is easy to build hard counters into your own list. Target Priority against them becomes fairly easy. I know I limit their firepower alot, just by causing a single casualty to a long fang squad, as they would almost rather take the sergent then anything else, that dilutes their firepower alot because they can't spread their firepower around like they would like to. Rune Priests are generally not deployed far forward, so you can actually take advantage of their 24" range and hit them on a flank.

It's all about exploiting the advantages of your army against theirs.

Orks can present a Kan wall with a crap ton of shooting and a KFF, or throw a bunch of AV 14 Battle Wagons that missle launchers struggle against. You concentrate firepower on Long Fangs, and take the bet of your assault versus their assault, chances are you are winning that contest.

IG can laydown their own ridiculous amount of fire power, having enough shots to at the very least cause Long Fangs to flee whilst you are blowing up thier transports and delaying their army.

Blood Angels (the army I play) have more access to str. 10 power weapons then most, which makes Thunderwolves cry. I can deepstrike a smoked Land Raider in front of long fangs and laugh at them. And bait their Grey Hunters to try and pop me with their meltas. Even if they kill the tank, the unit I have inside will murder them. Plus BA can put out better quality of shots on more mobile platforms then Long Fangs can, whilst being more survivable with lots of FNP.

Standard Marines can get the drop on Space Wolves as well, with Iron Clad Dreadnoughts, Dakka Dreads killing tanks, and Thunderfire Cannons heaping wounds one Long Fangs and drawing fire. Marines still have cheap Thunderhammer Storm Shields, that should win combats with Null Zone up against most SW assault elements (but that comes down to piling units on top of other units)

As Dash said, Dark Eldar, will be the Space Wolves undoing. You put at least 5 Venoms on the table, and long fangs will not last long. Combine that with access to multiple blasters, Dark Lances, and Heat Lances, and the DE can, and will, limit the amount of shooting coming back at them. Especially with their abilities to ensure the first turn.

I have seen massive genestealers just murder space wolves, even when JOTWW kills a couple of MCs. I think the Trygon gets overlooked a lot in this equation, as a MC that can deepstrike on top of a long fang squad, shoot it up, and be almost immune to JOTWW. Getting FNP on an MC is also funny in the Long fang equation. Your assault units can handle grey hunters as long as you can lock down the dependency they have in their firepower.

Space Wolves are an easy codex to pick up and play and do well with. No one is arguing that. But a good player with any other fifth edition codex, can and will successfully challenge them. The game is not boring to me for two reasons. I am always changing my list, which is one thing 5th edition allows you to do more then any other eddition, and Space Wolves fell a little out of favor as soon as people where hard countering them. There are still great Space Wolf players in my area, hell, my roommate is a 4 consequetive RTT winner with them, but they are not a prevailing army. Foot Eldar thrive in our area and has successfully challenge Space Wolves, because the player know the SW game. I know I will have a good game when I see a Space Wolves player, but I never feel like they have an advantage over me. Not anymore.

I agree. The Space Marines codex has now been grossly invalidated by these new and far superior marine codexes, hence the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality.

I agree with many others here, the SW book seems to have taken a lot out of the game. It was billed as a small army of heavy hitters and characters with little in the way of long range firepower. Turns out they can field just as many, if not more dudes, as any other marine army, just be more capable model for model, with tremendously capable long range firepower, sporting killier characters with probably the best psychic potential in the game, along with some of the most atrocious fluff background ever to be seen. Every time I look at my CSM's, I realize I could just run it as a C:SW army and the only models I'd have to change are my (6) Oblits for (18) Long Fangs, and I'd end up having an extra 120 or so points to work with while gaining Counterattack and ATSKNF and much greater long range firepower. SW's are the primary reason I tend not to play my CSM's as much anymore, because they simply do the exact same thing but far better but I can't bring myself to use the SW rules for them because it really wouldn't feel right at all.

The army wide Counterattack/Acute Senses that, at least from what I see when I look at the army list, was not accounted for in their costs in any way, coupled with heavily reduced or freebie upgrades on many units (e.g. GH special weapons, WG powerfists and the like) simply make the army far more capable than it should be. Additionally, while it lacks the more esoteric units that C:SM has, it has some of its own (some of which intentionally thumb their nose at what many people consider to be the thrust of certain game mechanics like Lone Wolves and KP's), and the core of the SW army is simply far more capable, for *FEWER* points in many cases.

Much has been made of SW's having to pass an Ld test to make use of Counterattack, which requires them to be charged. First, even at Ld8 assuming no squad leader, they are passing almost 75% of the time, and at Ld9 they are passing that about 83% of the time. Additionally, this ability means that the SW player can muck up or just not really have to make a hard decision in many situations between shooting and CC, as even against other marine units they are identically geared so as not to be any worse, and they can take a charge and typically hit back harder than whatever charged them. It's just too much insurance against mucking up or an enemy gaining the upper hand as they will face just as much pain from charging as being charged, and often just as much firepower as any other SM equivalent unit. This is particularly true with Grey Hunters (the core of the army) and WG Terminators. It's also not like they are exactly paying for this ability looking at their unit and upgrade costs.

I also am at a loss as to *why* Space Wolves needed such capable marines, man for man, relative to everyone else? It's very difficult to understand how they are so much more capable than any other genetically engineered super soldier whose entire lives are dedicated to war and training 22 hours a day but don't spend time drinking and carousing?


If GH's were 18pts apiece instead of 15, and Long Fang 5x missile squads were 170 instead of 140, and some of the upgrades were more in line with other books, SW's wouldn't be a problem (on average it'd cut 150-220 or so points out of a 2k SW list, so 1 less GH squad or Long Fang unit) as they'd be paying the points for their powerful abilities and actually be at a rough sort of parity with other MEQ armies. As is, unless one wants specific units only available to one army, if looking at making a competitive MEQ army, there's little reason to go with anything but SW's and maybe BA's.

As Dash said, Dark Eldar, will be the Space Wolves undoing. You put at least 5 Venoms on the table, and long fangs will not last long.

5 Venoms each sporting two Splinter Cannons will, on average, kill off one long fang squad, assuming the DE go first and get to shoot everything. 3 5x missile Long Fangs will on average *destroy* at least 3 of those Venoms and likely inflict enough destroyed/immobilized/stunned results to incapacitate all of them.

Heh, I'm still holding on to my vanilla SM, which are all painted as Crimson Fists.

But I have to say it's more and more difficult to not just say 'They're Blood Fist!' or 'They are Crimson Fangs!' or somesuch and make a list using one of the Codex: Space Marine +1.

Like others who have posted, I am a big fan of SW fluff and was very excited when I heard they were coming out. After dithering with "Witch Hunters" for a while, I thought this would be the release that got me excited about 40k again. Well, it did get me excited about 40k again--but I still don't have a SW army. I've picked up and painted models since the release, inlcuding some third party TWs, but have no intention of writing a list for much less playing SW anytime soon. The stigma that Arschbombe mentioned has been around almost since release.

I still think this thread is concentrating on what Space Wolves do well, but not looking at it's downsides.

Namely, the cost of their assault units in comparison with other armies.

I agree. The Space Marines codex has now been grossly invalidated by these new and far superior marine codexes, hence the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality.

There are so many things that the Codex Marine army does well, in the right hands they can be pretty devastating, and I am not even talking about the Vulkan list.

And the thing that makes me mad is that,as i see it, 40K is`nt about fielding 30 TH/SS Terminators,or 4 seer councils, it`s about taking 1500 points and making the best regiment/chapter/craft world/whatever and taking the bad-news-bears (if i can make that analogy) and banging-heads with another player of the same thing.With space wolves,it`s physically impossible to do this BECAUSE of what OP mentioned,SW on Others is essentially like fighting a monolith with a .22 pistol.(if i can relate this)When the crossbow was introduced, It turned the lolly peasant into a master archer,other men before that had to take 30 years training to be THAT skilled with a longbow,a short bow,or a short sword,it could kill a master-knight in a flash,the pope tried to ban it,calling it genocide,unfair that a poor man could kill a rich noble on horseback with such little training (the SW are the crossbow,other players are the victim,and the pope is the internet community,for the stupid people out there.)

I don't blame SW players for taking the best options available to them. And, I don't blame C:SM, DA, BT, etc players from playing it counts-as SW. It's really hard to look at a codex and see that you can take a whole bunch of upgrades to your list and not have to really loose anything.

I blame GW for letting codex creep get this bad.

Perhaps its time for every TO to take matters into their own hands and re-cost C:SW.

Mahu wrote:I still think this thread is concentrating on what Space Wolves do well, but not looking at it's downsides.

Namely, the cost of their assault units in comparison with other armies.

Um, how so? You mean like Wolf Guard? They are extremely cost efficient with some of the cheapest access to close combat gear amongst MEQ armies in the game and one of the most diverse arrays of options of any unit out there. 18pts a piece for 2A base with Counterattack, Ld9, and a buttload of reduced price close combat weapons? Their Terminators have the largest array of options available to them of any terminator unit, and are the cheapest in the game except for Chaos terminators, but get ATSKNF and Counterattack and more weapons options for it. The only part of their options that isn't at least on par with others is the TH/SS combo, which is drastically *undercosted* in other armies. (seriously, you could make them 50pts each and they'd still be taken just as often, people would cut other units before they'd stop taking them)


Likewise, TWC's may be expensive, but are hugely powerful units and can play wound allocation gimmicks with the best of them, and are wholly worth their cost.

The bloodclaws and the like aren't exactly expensive either, no more than their counterparts in other books, though they swap WS4 (bs4 means little as they really don't have meaningful shooting) for Headstrong, Berzerk Charge and Counterattack.

There are quite a few units in the book that doesnt seem to be taken alot, or at all. I've never seen anyone take any of the Bloodclaw variants (Swiftclaw bikers, Sky Claw Jump packs) and GW might have thought that nerfing some units might justify the perks of the others, but didnt realise the players could simply choose not to take these options.

Redbeard wrote:I'm not one of these super-old-time players who can cite figures dating back to Rogue Trader. But in the five or six years that I've been playing, I don't recall seeing such uniformity in what is being run. When I started playing, you had traits and doctrines for marines and guard, and each chaos legion had its own flavour. The eldar had five different craftworld lists available to them, and even orks had three variants (Codex, Speed Freaks, and Feral). GWs design process has consistently removed options over the last few years, with the result that every codex can be approached in a 'take the strongest stuff' method, and Space Wolves simply have the strongest stuff.

The net effect, for me at least, is an increasing level of boredom with the game. Even in my casual games, I'm seeing a lot of the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality. I wonder if this is what the Fantasy players were going through at the end of 7th ed, where you either played Daemons, or Vampires, or got screwed.

I agree on all of this completely. Taking it even further on your last point the game is becoming more narrow minded than I've ever seen it. MOST armies I see are run with the same list every game, not just SW. And I play at a fairly large flgs. SW, BA, Eldar, Chaos, Daemons, Tau, IG, the list goes on, a standard competative build hits and everyone playes those lists over and over again. Gunline for SW, DoA/Razorspam for BA, Tankspam eldar, Dual lash chaos, all khorne daemons+fateweaver, Gunline tau, leafblower IG, dah de dah de dah... you get it. People are forced into these places to compete with the other fools who started running these lists and didnt stop after the tourney. Also the codexes utter lack of individuality in characters and units like they all used to have have forced players into these cookie cutter builds. Dark days ahead im thinking till 6th edition...

Nurglitch wrote:I disagree. If Space Wolves seem over-whelming, it's because people haven't put their backs into beating them yet.

In particular I think that the Space Wolves have weaknesses that people used to playing Space Marines are not inclined to exploit.

Take Counter-Attack, for example. The Space Wolves have to pass a Leadership Test first. Actually, the Space Wolves need to be charged first. I've noticed that Space Marines tend to be more effective if they stay out of combat (at least those they can't win easily over a game turn) and so you want to charge them to neuter their shooting. With Space Wolves you want to shoot them.

So your suggesting get assaulted? then they get the extra attack anyway...

Nurglitch wrote:Long Fangs, well, I've talked enough about the weaknesses of Long Fangs. Needless to say I'm still surprised that they're considered a threat when so much can drop in and destroy six Space Marines so easily.

Idk anything that can drop in and destroy 6 missile totting SM easily... and If you do the 2 other squads are going to kill it for doing so.

Nurglitch wrote:Razorbacks are also a source of consternation for me, not because they're some terrible scourge, but because people are afraid of lots of AV11 vehicles. Heavy Bolters can take them down! Maybe it's just because I play Chaos Space Marines who can take Autocannons out the yin-yang region, but I just don't see them as a threat commensurate with their points value.

True AV11 isnt that impressive but when they come in bulk and carry heavy weapons it is.

Nurglitch wrote:Likewise Rune Priests are just as useless as Space Marine Librarians in close combat, and have less useful psychic powers. While they have some nice shooting attacks, you can get similar firepower for cheaper elsewhere in the list, and if you take them, then you can't take the other, less easily killed characters. Maxing out on HQ is nice, but even armies where you can only take two, it's often wiser to just take one and devote the points to more of the units that actually do work.

Rune priests are the best psychers in the game hands down, more for living lightning than JoWW. A autocannon with unlimited range and possible 6 shots? That is devistating in the current all armor edition we play in now. Dont get me started on there crazy psychic protection...

No trying to be rude at all, BUT I will defend the validity of the OP's origional statment to the death.

Dashofpepper wrote:Patience.

Mech IG was ridiculous when it came out, and still is. The longfang spam as a cheap unit was needed to counter mech IG's dominance. Dark Eldar are now something of a hard counter to Space Wolves.

In the game of Rock paper scissors...


Space Wolves = Rock
Mech IG = Scissors
Dark Eldar = Paper

36" splinter cannons that can pour out such a volume of fire that longfangs are evaporated before getting a chance to fire. On the flip side the vehices are weak and I still don't know how to answer Guard.

Wrong. SW bolters can bring down there pathetic vehicels before you even begine to get into 15 missile shots, 2 living lightning shots (possible 12 S7 shots), and a row of razorbacks prolly with things that kill vehicles. DE get no armor saves against bolters, DE have no common way of dealing with walkers in CC, No psychic defence. Really the DE codex is nothing special and cant begin to touch a SW gunline.

Kurgash wrote:Is it bad that I am now tooling around a World Eater list using the Space Wolf codex because I can actually have the theme force I want?

yes

Mahu wrote:I have been playing 40k for 7 years now, going from late third through today.

I have to say that the game is much better balanced and diverse then it ever was, from a competitive stand point, and I think that fact really upsets people's understanding of competitive play in this current edition, because it is increasingly harder to come up with a list that can handle all comers, and you throw in the utility knife of the Space Wolf codex, and you can easily have the perception that the codex having an unfair advantage.

I play Blood Angels, in an area that has a tournament at a different store every week almost, and a large variety of players. Some stores I go to, the majority of the players are space wolves, among our local group, Space Wolves have much less impact, because we have learned how to beat them enough, that their impact has considerably lessened.

Part of the way to counter the "Space Wolf Effect" is to just take into consideration their almost "default" tactics. You know that you will be probably facing a Space Wolf army with Long Fangs and a Rune Priest eventually, so it is easy to build hard counters into your own list. Target Priority against them becomes fairly easy. I know I limit their firepower alot, just by causing a single casualty to a long fang squad, as they would almost rather take the sergent then anything else, that dilutes their firepower alot because they can't spread their firepower around like they would like to. Rune Priests are generally not deployed far forward, so you can actually take advantage of their 24" range and hit them on a flank.

It's all about exploiting the advantages of your army against theirs.

Orks can present a Kan wall with a crap ton of shooting and a KFF, or throw a bunch of AV 14 Battle Wagons that missle launchers struggle against. You concentrate firepower on Long Fangs, and take the bet of your assault versus their assault, chances are you are winning that contest.

IG can laydown their own ridiculous amount of fire power, having enough shots to at the very least cause Long Fangs to flee whilst you are blowing up thier transports and delaying their army.

Blood Angels (the army I play) have more access to str. 10 power weapons then most, which makes Thunderwolves cry. I can deepstrike a smoked Land Raider in front of long fangs and laugh at them. And bait their Grey Hunters to try and pop me with their meltas. Even if they kill the tank, the unit I have inside will murder them. Plus BA can put out better quality of shots on more mobile platforms then Long Fangs can, whilst being more survivable with lots of FNP.

Standard Marines can get the drop on Space Wolves as well, with Iron Clad Dreadnoughts, Dakka Dreads killing tanks, and Thunderfire Cannons heaping wounds one Long Fangs and drawing fire. Marines still have cheap Thunderhammer Storm Shields, that should win combats with Null Zone up against most SW assault elements (but that comes down to piling units on top of other units)

As Dash said, Dark Eldar, will be the Space Wolves undoing. You put at least 5 Venoms on the table, and long fangs will not last long. Combine that with access to multiple blasters, Dark Lances, and Heat Lances, and the DE can, and will, limit the amount of shooting coming back at them. Especially with their abilities to ensure the first turn.

I have seen massive genestealers just murder space wolves, even when JOTWW kills a couple of MCs. I think the Trygon gets overlooked a lot in this equation, as a MC that can deepstrike on top of a long fang squad, shoot it up, and be almost immune to JOTWW. Getting FNP on an MC is also funny in the Long fang equation. Your assault units can handle grey hunters as long as you can lock down the dependency they have in their firepower.

Space Wolves are an easy codex to pick up and play and do well with. No one is arguing that. But a good player with any other fifth edition codex, can and will successfully challenge them. The game is not boring to me for two reasons. I am always changing my list, which is one thing 5th edition allows you to do more then any other eddition, and Space Wolves fell a little out of favor as soon as people where hard countering them. There are still great Space Wolf players in my area, hell, my roommate is a 4 consequetive RTT winner with them, but they are not a prevailing army. Foot Eldar thrive in our area and has successfully challenge Space Wolves, because the player know the SW game. I know I will have a good game when I see a Space Wolves player, but I never feel like they have an advantage over me. Not anymore.

Your opinion seem biased based on the fact that the people in your area are unique in the fact that they talor there lists to deal with the unusal amount of SW in your area.

Mahu wrote:I still think this thread is concentrating on what Space Wolves do well, but not looking at it's downsides.

Namely, the cost of their assault units in comparison with other armies.

My qualm isn't so much what they do well rather than what they don't. My biggest problem is the lack of a distinct weakness, unlike most armies who will struggle in one form of combat or another or for whom you'll have to pay huge amounts of points for, Space Wolves are relatively lacking in flaws.
Space Wolves are naturally a Close Quarters (- 24") army (my tactica) and yet they are still very capable in close combat and at range. One of the big problems with the likes of the typical razorback/long fang tournament list is that they can possess a huge amount of firepower and still be good in assault. Assault dedicated armies will often have too crippling losses to be able to overwhelm them when they reach them in close combat, whereas the Space Wolves can choose to engage long-ranged armies up-close.

To me at-least, Space Wolves are too good at everything which is why they are becoming so common and uniform, they can be out-gunned by IG or out-assaulted by Tyranids, but that's looking at things in a vacuum, the reality is that the Space Wolves are at the core under-costed and very capable.

If Grey Hunters were the same price as tactical marines (loss of combat tactics, leadership, heavy weapon) then that would make sense, as it would for Long Fangs to cost more (they are actually the same price as GH's but have extra Ld) and/or for their options to cost more.
I love the Space Wolves in terms of the 40K universe, but what I believe to be the main problem in-game (particularly tournament where it's abused) is the low-cost of some of their best units and fairly significant lack of weakness, only helped by the low costs...

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:There are quite a few units in the book that doesnt seem to be taken alot, or at all. I've never seen anyone take any of the Bloodclaw variants (Swiftclaw bikers, Sky Claw Jump packs) and GW might have thought that nerfing some units might justify the perks of the others, but didnt realise the players could simply choose not to take these options.

By quite a few you mean Whirlwinds, Fen. Wolves, WGBL's and Swiftclaws? Sky Claws aren't that uncommon but even so these are the only weak units in the codex, generally.

O yes and on the topic of SW fluff:

SW are mutants: Canis helix

SW are heretics: dont obey codex astares, Kill inquisiton and SoB, and use daemon weapons (logan Grimmnar), Venerate wolves?

SW are hypocrites: Hate psychers but have the most powerful psychers in the game

Any other SM would be purged for these indescretions but because of there "fluff" armor are spared. I HATE SW!

... k I'm done lol

Laughing God wrote:

Redbeard wrote:I'm not one of these super-old-time players who can cite figures dating back to Rogue Trader. But in the five or six years that I've been playing, I don't recall seeing such uniformity in what is being run. When I started playing, you had traits and doctrines for marines and guard, and each chaos legion had its own flavour. The eldar had five different craftworld lists available to them, and even orks had three variants (Codex, Speed Freaks, and Feral). GWs design process has consistently removed options over the last few years, with the result that every codex can be approached in a 'take the strongest stuff' method, and Space Wolves simply have the strongest stuff.

The net effect, for me at least, is an increasing level of boredom with the game. Even in my casual games, I'm seeing a lot of the "I'm not winning enough, so let me run my marines as space wolves" mentality. I wonder if this is what the Fantasy players were going through at the end of 7th ed, where you either played Daemons, or Vampires, or got screwed.

I agree on all of this completely. Taking it even further on your last point the game is becoming more narrow minded than I've ever seen it. MOST armies I see are run with the same list every game, not just SW. And I play at a fairly large flgs. SW, BA, Eldar, Chaos, Daemons, Tau, IG, the list goes on, a standard competative build hits and everyone playes those lists over and over again. Gunline for SW, DoA/Razorspam for BA, Tankspam eldar, Dual lash chaos, all khorne daemons+fateweaver, Gunline tau, leafblower IG, dah de dah de dah... you get it. People are forced into these places to compete with the other fools who started running these lists and didnt stop after the tourney. Also the codexes utter lack of individuality in characters and units like they all used to have have forced players into these cookie cutter builds. Dark days ahead im thinking till 6th edition...

The idea of this lasting 'til 6th edition is a fairly huge assumption and I doubt neither you nor you can say that such a thing has happened in the past or would be completely unusual.

I agree with what you're saying about the common lists within tournaments (and the internet(!)) and these are commonly the lists of the unimaginative or ambitious IMHO. What this can however do is create quite a predictable Meta for the actually skilled generals to take advantage of, whereby inconventional yet competitive lists can be used to good effect, partially due to the element of surprise. It's not difficult to predict most of the lists that could turn up (as you've said) so it means that skilled generals can use a list capable of defeating the common builds whilst being unique on its own. Blackmoor is such an example of this.
I am not, by any means advocating the constant copy/paste of 'tournament lists' however, this lack of imagination does open the doors for the actually skilled players with unconventional lists to seize top-spot and potentially change the meta or general perspective. Silver lining and all that...


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Laughing God wrote:O yes and on the topic of SW fluff:

SW are mutants: Canis helix

SW are heretics: dont obey codex astares, Kill inquisiton and SoB, and use daemon weapons (logan Grimmnar), Venerate wolves?

SW are hypocrites: Hate psychers but have the most powerful psychers in the game

Any other SM would be purged for these indescretions but because of there "fluff" armor are spared. I HATE SW!

... k I'm done lol

Mutants?
No. Some Space Wolves are abnormal, as is there gene-seed. They are not necessarily mutants and the entire chapter certainly isn't.

Heretics?
Several Chapters don't obey Codex astartes and doing so doesn't make you a heretic, just because Rowboat says it's the way doesn't mean it is.
Many Warriors use weapons 'won' off defeating Champions of Chaos or whatnot, I don't recall anywhere stating it's a daemon weapon let alone that it makes Grimnar a heretic.
Veneration of wolves (not really veneration considering they wear them as underwear and whatnot) isn't really heretical either.

YES, the killing of the Inq. etc. IS heretical. Albeit in some cases, justified.

Hypocrites?
Game does not equate to Fluff.

Blood Angels are much more divergent than Space Wolves and that's not caused them to be purged or whatnot. Space Wolves are arguably the most loyal chapter to humanity and ultimately have fought in its defence countless times, their fluff is their strong-point IMHO and at the very least they are better as an ally rather than an enemy.

Um, how so? You mean like Wolf Guard? They are extremely cost efficient with some of the cheapest access to close combat gear amongst MEQ armies in the game and one of the most diverse arrays of options of any unit out there. 18pts a piece for 2A base with Counterattack, Ld9, and a buttload of reduced price close combat weapons?

They are still paying more for a similarly equipped (and free) Sergent from the Blood Angels and Space Marine Codexes. Plus if you take that Leader, you loose the ability to take full upgrades in your squads. Space Wolves don't have the transport capacities of the new Marine codexes, so they are forced to choose. The best they can do for special weapons is take a combi-weapon with that leader, and since you are not getting an extra attack anyways, most players take a powerfist. So you are spending 43 points on a single meltagun shot and 3 powerfist attacks at best, that is pretty fairly priced, considering other Marine armies get their Leadership 9 Sergent for free, and only have to pay 35 points for that same configuration.

Their Terminators have the largest array of options available to them of any terminator unit, and are the cheapest in the game except for Chaos terminators, but get ATSKNF and Counterattack and more weapons options for it.

They pay more points for their terminators, because they have to pay for every option. Yes, a basic Power Weapon - Storm Bolter Terminator is cheap at 33 points. But star spending points on them for upgrades, and the unit cost starts to sky rocket. Storm shields are 15 point upgrades by themselves. Are you going to tell me a 48 point terminator with a power weapon and storm shield is cheap? Especially compared to Blood Angel Lightning Claw Terminators that have access to Furious Charge and FNP? Or to Space Marine Terminators that have access to free Master Crafting, or Chaplains?

The only part of their options that isn't at least on par with others is the TH/SS combo, which is drastically *undercosted* in other armies. (seriously, you could make them 50pts each and they'd still be taken just as often, people would cut other units before they'd stop taking them)

See, I don't see them undercosted at all. In Codex Marines, it is really their only line unit in a primarily shooty army, and in Blood Angels, they pay slightly more, but they compete fairly heavily with Lightning Claws that can be buffed to god like levels.

Likewise, TWC's may be expensive, but are hugely powerful units and can play wound allocation gimmicks with the best of them, and are wholly worth their cost.

They have plenty of hard counters. For me, Blood Angels have no problems with them. Between Furious Charging Might of Heroes Librarian Dreadnoughts, Librarians that can become strength 10 in combat, and a multitude of access to re-rolling hits and wounds str, 5 attacks, they can be dealt with. Dark Eldar love to see Thunderwolf Cav.

The point is a decent Thunderwolf unit, with a few storm sheilds and an attached Lord, will cost you a huge amount of points, and if you know how to deal with them with your army, and brought some counters, you should be able to handle them like any other brick unit.

The bloodclaws and the like aren't exactly expensive either, no more than their counterparts in other books, though they swap WS4 (bs4 means little as they really don't have meaningful shooting) for Headstrong, Berzerk Charge and Counterattack.

Blood Claws don't like to be charged, like at all. A decent unit will hit them easier and pile the wounds on quickly. They don't get berserk when they counter charge.

Their are reasons why most SW players rely heavily on the units on Redbeard's list. They are cheap and effective, but if you turn that strentgh into a weakness, but taking things that can handle that well, then it comes down to your ability to tackle the high cost assault units that they have. Most armies have those answers, and can give Space Wolves a run for their money because of that. I still think there is too much emphasis on what Space Wolves does well, without any serious debate on how to tackle them in the current system.

Your opinion seem biased based on the fact that the people in your area are unique in the fact that they talor there lists to deal with the unusal amount of SW in your area.

No more list tailoring, then building any list to be able to tackle multiple adversaries. A good list needs to be able to handle Space Wolves, like it needs to be able to handle guard or Tyranids. My point is, learn to handle Space Wolves and you will be much more successful.

Even worse was the whole thing about Space Wolves fire artillery by *smell* (inside a crowded armored fighting vehicle smelling of oil, fuel, rocket propellant, body odor, blood, sweat, etc, in the midst of a battlefield at targets many hundreds of meters away with all sorts of smells in between)...then rush up to watch the results, thereby negating the entire point of artillery weapons.

And of course "Canis Wolfborn, of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves, The Wolf King, Lord of the Wolfkin, riding his giant Thunderwolf, Weilding his Wolfclaws, Wolf Tail Talisman, and Wolf Tooth Neclace, Bearing the Saga of the Wolfkin, accompanied by his Fenrisian Wolves. (all of those things are in his unit entry)

Okay, short of starting a different army, how do Tyranids deal with them, without making themselves vulnerable to non-space wolves? Assume the wolves are played competently too.

Vaktathi wrote:Even worse was the whole thing about Space Wolves fire artillery by *smell* (inside a crowded armored fighting vehicle smelling of oil, fuel, rocket propellant, body odor, blood, sweat, etc, in the midst of a battlefield at targets many hundreds of meters away with all sorts of smells in between)...then rush up to watch the results, thereby negating the entire point of artillery weapons.

And of course "Canis Wolfborn, of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves, The Wolf King, Lord of the Wolfkin, riding his giant Thunderwolf, Weilding his Wolfclaws, Wolf Tail Talisman, and Wolf Tooth Neclace, Bearing the Saga of the Wolfkin, accompanied by his Fenrisian Wolves. (all of those things are in his unit entry)

What the Wolf man!? I cant wolfing believe that wolf! Wolf these mother wolfers, GW must have been wolfing high to wolf such wolf wolf...

lol

Hide your kids, hide your wife, GW's wolfing every page in here.


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Redbeard wrote:Okay, short of starting a different army, how do Tyranids deal with them, without making themselves vulnerable to non-space wolves? Assume the wolves are played competently too.

lets see here tyranids suck agains...SW, and now DE, starting to sense some nid hate...

They are still paying more for a similarly equipped (and free) Sergent from the Blood Angels and Space Marine Codexes.

Really? The cost of the sergeant is built into the unit. A tac squad is 90pts, already taking into account the sergeant (otherwise it would be 75), and the additional 1ppm the marines cost is taking into account their free weapons for being 10 strong (as otherwise you miss out and are discouraged from taking smaller units)

5 basic Tac Marines with their sergeant is 90pts. 5 Grey Hunters *plus* a Wolf Guard is 93pts. For 3 extra points you get an extra dude, ccw, and counterattack, and the WG's upgrade weapons are 5pts cheaper, and the squad can take a special weapon. 5 Grey Hunters with a Pfist WG is 113pts (6 models plus powerfist), 5 Tac Marines with a powerfist (5 models plus powerfist) is 115pts.

10 Tac Marines with a flamer, missile, and powerfist in a Rhino is 230pts. 9 GH's w/Flamer+Pfist/Combi-weapon WG in a Rhino is 213pts. Similar firepower (and lets face it, even if GH's had the option for a HW, most wouldn't take it anyway given the nature of the unit), much better CC, and lower cost on the SW unit.

A basic Tac squad of 5 dudes total and a Pfist/Cweapon for the sergeant in a TLLC Razorback is 200pts. 5 Grey Hunters *plus* a Pfist/Cweapon WG in a TLLC Razorback is 193pts. Again, cheaper, more dudes, better dudes.

already Plus if you take that Leader, you loose the ability to take full upgrades in your squads.

Mitigated by the fact that the squad leader can take a combi-weapon, and that second weapon is free if they don't take the squad leader, unlike say, CSM's.

Space Wolves don't have the transport capacities of the new Marine codexes, so they are forced to choose.

only for Drop Pods and Land Raiders. Rhino's/Razorbacks are *identical*. Only C:SM gets 12man drop pods & LR's, BA's didn't get them because Matt Ward got in a lot of trouble for having done that. I'd expect that to get reduced again once 6E C:SM comes out, and would not expect C: DA or C:BT to get expanded transport capabilities either.

The best they can do for special weapons is take a combi-weapon with that leader, and since you are not getting an extra attack anyways, most players take a powerfist.

Right, but where's the downside here? That's a great loadout.

So you are spending 43 points on a single meltagun shot and 3 powerfist attacks at best, that is pretty fairly priced, considering other Marine armies get their Leadership 9 Sergent for free

Again, no they don't get it, its built into the units base cost as above.

and only have to pay 35 points for that same configuration.

They are effectively paying 55, not 35. 65 with combi weapon unlike the 43 for the WG (or 38 without combi-weapon). And in the end, it's all meaningless as total *unit* costs after all is said and done end up significantly lower for the SW's either way.

They pay more points for their terminators, because they have to pay for every option.

They start significantly cheaper, and don't pay any more than anyone else for most options, and have far more options.

Yes, a basic Power Weapon - Storm Bolter Terminator is cheap at 33 points. But star spending points on them for upgrades, and the unit cost starts to sky rocket. Storm shields are 15 point upgrades by themselves.

The only thigns that *skyrocket* cost are the Thunderhammers and Stormshields. You don't need them on every model or any. The other options are very reasonably priced and you don't need to take every upgrade on every model.

Are you going to tell me a 48 point terminator with a power weapon and storm shield is cheap?

No, but I'm not saying it's exactly overcosted either. A basic Pfist one with Counterattack for 3pts more than a generic termi is a great buy. 38pts for a Combi-melta termi with counterattack is awesome. 200pts for 3 combi meltas and 2 powerfists with counterattack on 5 dudes is awesome, it's much more flexible than generic termi's without the overkill of having Pfists on *everyone*.

Especially compared to Blood Angel Lightning Claw Terminators that have access to Furious Charge and FNP? Or to Space Marine Terminators that have access to free Master Crafting, or Chaplains?

Again, you'll notice I made the exception for Stormshield units, as they are drastically *UNDERCOSTED* elsewhere. Just because they are more realistically costed in the SW book doesn't mean the whole unit is bad. People overfocus on that one piece of wargear time and again. SW Termi's are far more flexible in terms of options and costing (both up and down) with a much greater variety of roles to fill than other loyalist termi's. Look at them next to CSM termi's, both in terms of role and competitiveness, and you'll see where they start to become very good units that don't need to be kitted out to be a bajillion points to be good.

See, I don't see them undercosted at all. In Codex Marines, it is really their only line unit in a primarily shooty army, and in Blood Angels, they pay slightly more, but they compete fairly heavily with Lightning Claws that can be buffed to god like levels.

Considering you don't *ever* see other terminators in these armies, and that even the 5pt increase hasn't decreased their popularity with blood angels, I'd say its safe to say they are overprice. I know I would still take them in a heartbeat at 50pts per model.

They have plenty of hard counters. For me, Blood Angels have no problems with them. Between Furious Charging Might of Heroes Librarian Dreadnoughts, Librarians that can become strength 10 in combat, and a multitude of access to re-rolling hits and wounds str, 5 attacks, they can be dealt with. Dark Eldar love to see Thunderwolf Cav.

That's throwing them into a unit that of course will probably do a number on them. 99% of units don't have S10, and even then the Dread will have to make it through the ubiquitous couple of guys with 3++ saves, then face some hurt with the dudes with pfists/thammers. As to DE, they love to see big expensive units of course, the army is *built* around destroying units like that (which is why they then have huge problems with IG who are built around lots of cheap weeny units and shooting). Not everyone can.

The point is a decent Thunderwolf unit, with a few storm sheilds and an attached Lord, will cost you a huge amount of points, and if you know how to deal with them with your army, and brought some counters, you should be able to handle them like any other brick unit.

They don't need a Lord to do their job, and yes, they will cost a fair number of points, but they also aren't exactly overly expensive for what they offer, nor are they necessary by any means to building a hyper-competitive SW list.

Blood Claws don't like to be charged, like at all. A decent unit will hit them easier and pile the wounds on quickly.

Probably not much, if any faster than most other SM units, and with Counterattack they'll still hit harder back than most things will be hitting them. They still get 2 attacks base from their wargear, and 3 with counterattack. 30 S4 I4 attacks from a 10man unit even when charged is pretty brutal, they are still on average putting more hurt on a charging enemy tac squad than they are recieving, and after the first round it goes further in their favor when the attacks ratio goes from 2:3 to 1:2.

They don't get berserk when they counter charge.

Right, but that still doesn't exactly make them poor units or terrible when charged. They are still putting out just as much hurt on an enemy Tac equivalent as my CSM's are when *charging*.

Their are reasons why most SW players rely heavily on the units on Redbeard's list. They are cheap and effective, but if you turn that strentgh into a weakness, but taking things that can handle that well, then it comes down to your ability to tackle the high cost assault units that they have

Two problems with this. First, those high cost assault units are brutally effective and not exactly the easiest things to counter. Second, the high cost assault units aren't needed to make a very competitive SW list.

Laughing God wrote:
Hide your kids, hide your wife, GW's wolfing every page in here.

sigged lol


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Just Dave wrote:
Mutants?
No. Some Space Wolves are abnormal, as is there gene-seed. They are not necessarily mutants and the entire chapter certainly isn't.

Abnormal is a bit of a stretch. Having an extra toe is abnormal, being double jointed is abnormal, turning into a werewolf is a little outside the realm of abnormal. And yes we all get that not every space wolf does this, but they all have the potential to. All psykers have the potential to turn into living gates to hell, and you see how rigidly they're controlled. The Space Wolves seem to be exempt from every law governing the Imperium of Man.

Just Dave wrote:
Heretics?
Several Chapters don't obey Codex astartes and doing so doesn't make you a heretic, just because Rowboat says it's the way doesn't mean it is.
Many Warriors use weapons 'won' off defeating Champions of Chaos or whatnot, I don't recall anywhere stating it's a daemon weapon let alone that it makes Grimnar a heretic.
Veneration of wolves (not really veneration considering they wear them as underwear and whatnot) isn't really heretical either.

Cite your sources before you refute an argument on the basis of, "these guys I know did this and used that, I can't be bothered to tell you where or when, but I'm right".

Just Dave wrote:
YES, the killing of the Inq. etc. IS heretical. Albeit in some cases, justified.

Just Dave wrote:
Hypocrites?
Game does not equate to Fluff.

Regardless it does not excuse the fact that they are, they go against every piece of fluff written on the superstition of their Legion

Just Dave wrote:
Blood Angels are much more divergent than Space Wolves and that's not caused them to be purged or whatnot.

In what way? Blood Angels suffer from bad dreams and paranoid schizophrenia that causes them to see something that isn't real, they also have glaring anger issues, but regardless these are things inherent even in today's populace. Granted these individuals are usually institutionalized, howver you don't hear about any cases of 'Werewolf-ism" cropping up around the world. I'm sorry, but the Space Wolves take the cake for genetic deviancy among the loyalist chapters of the Astartes.

Just Dave wrote:By quite a few you mean Whirlwinds, Fen. Wolves, WGBL's and Swiftclaws? Sky Claws aren't that uncommon but even so these are the only weak units in the codex, generally.

That's still a fair bit of unit choices, and a few upgrades (such as someone pointed out the TH/SS combo) are overcosted, making them not as viable if you took them SM style. However what the devs apparently failed to see is that the SW have alot of alternatives, to the point that they can simply ignore the poor units in the codex, or take them in moderation with no detriment to the army as a whole. There are no innate drawbacks in the units themselves.

All codices have their poor choices which are often over-looked.
Out of these 4, Whirlwinds and Fen. Wolves can actually be used to good effect.

You are right however in that there are few innate drawbacks within the army, that's what I've been arguing throughout this entire thread...

I started as a 'Nids player. This being said, I moved to Grey Knights(nigh polar opposites), and had fun with both armies. When my 3rd edition Daemonhunters codex became obsolite compared to other armies, I poured my money into the 'Nids, and their 5th edition codex was on the horizon. At that point, my carnifex was in his prime. He ran alone, sure, but now, I barely fit him into my lists...

However, when the Space Wolves codex came out, I began to find my nids all but impossible to win against my one friend, who, fielded space wolves regualarly. He beats me out of CC, ranged, and almost every other aspect.

Charging your monstrous Creatures? NOOOO!!! Jaws...Dead. Not charging them? Missiled...Deader!

Your gribblies die at the might of my Counter-Attack! For we whittled you to nothing now that your Tervigon has been hit with a trillion rockets!

I've tried a dozen different tactics, and of them, two put me out on top. WITH THE GREY KNIGHTS! I stood a far better chance with them it seemed than my nids, and I tried so many different lists, strategies, field moves, units... EVERYTHING. Fielded Daemonhunters one time, and won. Fielded Tyranids 10 times, and won...ONCE. I cannot seem to beat his units on any terms, ground, position. They seem so much like a hard counter, that I simply no longer field them against him, and will not field them against most any SW army. Even for fun, I cannot have fun, because every time I know when I start the game, that my loss is all but nigh, even if I try... Since my Daemonhunters now only see the fields when facing SW, I can't wait to see if the codex will refine them some more...

And forget it if my MCs actually make it into CC... His blood-claws bog him down with Re-rollable Hits and Wounds... /rant

It's not like people all build their armies the same way.
If someone is building a hyper-competetive army for a casual game then fine you lost a game.
If someone does it in a tournement that's fine you can't really expect them to not bring their best.

Footsloggin wrote:I started as a 'Nids player. This being said, I moved to Grey Knights(nigh polar opposites), and had fun with both armies. When my 3rd edition Daemonhunters codex became obsolite compared to other armies, I poured my money into the 'Nids, and their 5th edition codex was on the horizon. At that point, my carnifex was in his prime. He ran alone, sure, but now, I barely fit him into my lists...

However, when the Space Wolves codex came out, I began to find my nids all but impossible to win against my one friend, who, fielded space wolves regualarly. He beats me out of CC, ranged, and almost every other aspect.

Charging your monstrous Creatures? NOOOO!!! Jaws...Dead. Not charging them? Missiled...Deader!

Your gribblies die at the might of my Counter-Attack! For we whittled you to nothing now that your Tervigon has been hit with a trillion rockets!

I've tried a dozen different tactics, and of them, two put me out on top. WITH THE GREY KNIGHTS! I stood a far better chance with them it seemed than my nids, and I tried so many different lists, strategies, field moves, units... EVERYTHING. Fielded Daemonhunters one time, and won. Fielded Tyranids 10 times, and won...ONCE. I cannot seem to beat his units on any terms, ground, position. They seem so much like a hard counter, that I simply no longer field them against him, and will not field them against most any SW army. Even for fun, I cannot have fun, because every time I know when I start the game, that my loss is all but nigh, even if I try... Since my Daemonhunters now only see the fields when facing SW, I can't wait to see if the codex will refine them some more...

And forget it if my MCs actually make it into CC... His blood-claws bog him down with Re-rollable Hits and Wounds... /rant

interesting, what do you usually run with your GK that is allowing you to best him so?

Brother Heinrich wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:I started as a 'Nids player. This being said, I moved to Grey Knights(nigh polar opposites), and had fun with both armies. When my 3rd edition Daemonhunters codex became obsolite compared to other armies, I poured my money into the 'Nids, and their 5th edition codex was on the horizon. At that point, my carnifex was in his prime. He ran alone, sure, but now, I barely fit him into my lists...

However, when the Space Wolves codex came out, I began to find my nids all but impossible to win against my one friend, who, fielded space wolves regualarly. He beats me out of CC, ranged, and almost every other aspect.

Charging your monstrous Creatures? NOOOO!!! Jaws...Dead. Not charging them? Missiled...Deader!

Your gribblies die at the might of my Counter-Attack! For we whittled you to nothing now that your Tervigon has been hit with a trillion rockets!

I've tried a dozen different tactics, and of them, two put me out on top. WITH THE GREY KNIGHTS! I stood a far better chance with them it seemed than my nids, and I tried so many different lists, strategies, field moves, units... EVERYTHING. Fielded Daemonhunters one time, and won. Fielded Tyranids 10 times, and won...ONCE. I cannot seem to beat his units on any terms, ground, position. They seem so much like a hard counter, that I simply no longer field them against him, and will not field them against most any SW army. Even for fun, I cannot have fun, because every time I know when I start the game, that my loss is all but nigh, even if I try... Since my Daemonhunters now only see the fields when facing SW, I can't wait to see if the codex will refine them some more...

And forget it if my MCs actually make it into CC... His blood-claws bog him down with Re-rollable Hits and Wounds... /rant

interesting, what do you usually run with your GK that is allowing you to best him so?

Psycannons, setting up a small firebase whilst his unlucky rolls prevented him from whitling down my forces via' Shrouding. These Knights moved up into range, proceded to kite and kill off some of his units. Meanwhile the Dread pops a few of the razorbacks. S6 attacks from NFW hurt when he decided to charge me. Then again, losing a few Grey Knights struck a signifiacant blow on my forces. But the Justicars cutting units down was very relieving. BC and Termy unit charging Logan, and, due to old TH rules, allowed me to keep him stunned, whilst the squad pummeled the others into oblivion. Long fangs rolled horribly the whole game, and prevented his Missiles from even targetting me. In the end, he held a single objective, I held two, and my Grey Knight squad managed to contest the final objective.

I'm sure that other Vanilla could do better, but I said "Screw it, I never win against these things, might as well play my Grey Knights!"

Laughing God wrote:O yes and on the topic of SW fluff:

SW are mutants: Canis helix

SW are heretics: dont obey codex astares, Kill inquisiton and SoB, and use daemon weapons (logan Grimmnar), Venerate wolves?

SW are hypocrites: Hate psychers but have the most powerful psychers in the game

Any other SM would be purged for these indescretions but because of there "fluff" armor are spared. I HATE SW!

... k I'm done lol

All Space Marines are changed by their gene-seed some more than others.
Both the Inquisition and the SoB start most of those fights although there have been time when SW should have just backed down. And Logan Grimnar won his axe from a chaos champion it never says anything about it being a daemon weapon.
SW hates sorcery and distrusts psykers. Like most of the IoM.
SW are spared because declaring them heretics would cause a civil war. Not only are they one of the largest chapters they are situated next to the cadian gate, instability there is unacceptable. There are also dozens of factions who would side with the SW.

Grakmar wrote:And, I don't blame C:SM, DA, BT, etc players from playing it counts-as SW. It's really hard to look at a codex and see that you can take a whole bunch of upgrades to your list and not have to really loose anything.

Oh, don't worry, those of us that stick to our Codex blame them enough already

purplefood wrote:.
SW hates sorcery and distrusts psykers. Like most of the IoM.

And yet can field more psykers than most armies and probably the best psykers

LaughingGod, rather than me quoting everything you said, about how SW bolters will take down DE transports and.....well, other rubbish - and then trying to convince you that you're completely wrong....

Do you have Vassal? www.vassal40k.info

I'd like you to put together your SW gunline. 18 Longfangs and 10,000 bolters. Against my Dark Eldar. I'd like to demonstrate to you personally how inept Space Wolves are against the new Dark Eldar. You can PM me here, or find me on Skype as Dashofpepper to schedule such a demonstration.

As a long time player, the general drift of 40K has been to simplification at all levels. While the game is streamlined and the codexes have been dumbed-down. Codex creep has been a fact at least all the way from 3rd ed to today.

SW are cheap, offer good psyk attack and defense and like marines from the first time I played the game, they offer resilience and flexibility that no non-marine can match. In the hands of a good player, any marine list can adapt to any opponent with good tactics and a balanced list. The problem today is with SW you have a low cost power (15 x 8 S attacks for 420 pts) base that can reach out and touch any style army of today. That means you have an idiot's choice in front of you whenever you build a list with SW. (i.e. Give me one good reason not to reserve the first 420 pts for the 3 x Long Fangs.) No thought, no better grasp of tactics, you are not necessarily a better general. You just are the beneficiary of a 10-20% bonus in points effiency.

Now I will argue you could purpose build eldar(pick a different race of your preference) and give it back to the SW player. But talk a tournament where you have to play all types of army and that purpose-built eldar list might be very competitive against an SW player but absolutely get owned by the orc or tau or tyrannid player.
Meanwhile the competent if not good SM list player probably didn't have to purpose-build anything and can react and at worst be competitive with any other list that might show its face.

Finally the last idiot test, when I look at spending @ $400 to build a competitive SW army and I am done or $600+ to build another army guess which one the person on the limited hobby budget is going to build. It is the rare person that says, "I think I will invest $600+ dollars on 100+ models that I have to assemble and paint and then struggle to ever be successful." Most will say I have $400 bucks and I can invest the time to assemble and paint 50 or so models and once I work out the kinks I will have a reasonable chance of succeeding for the next 3 or 4 years. (Until GW undercuts you with a paradigm shift in rules or the next "broken" codex.)

Just Dave wrote:All codices have their poor choices which are often over-looked.
Out of these 4, Whirlwinds and Fen. Wolves can actually be used to good effect.

You are right however in that there are few innate drawbacks within the army, that's what I've been arguing throughout this entire thread...

Just pointing out that the designers seemed to thought that limiting certain choices would have been a good drawback to the other things in the list, but didnt expect those very things they were trying to balance out to fulfill what they took away.


EDIT: Also, DAddict, from what your describing, it seems that the Space Wolves do fit their fluff very well, being the boastrous bruisers they are. As for shelling out alot of money for an army, YMMV on that one. Dollar to point wise, Vanilla Space Marines might still be cheaper to field than a Space Wolves force. The other forces alternatively rely on alot of metal models, which may be due to their age (namely the Necrons and the two -hunter armies). We might see alot more Storm Guardians if they came with plastic arms and more than just 8 figs to a 40 buck box. Guard and Nids, the two I think who would be more expensive despite the newer codexes and models, have it's rewards for fielding them moreso than just being a power gamer.

Vaktathi wrote:

purplefood wrote:.
SW hates sorcery and distrusts psykers. Like most of the IoM.

And yet can field more psykers than most armies and probably the best psykers

Nothing says that the psykers they distrust aren't brutally effective.

I agree with what Redbeard said , thats why i never take my current ( if over powered ) armies for granted.
If anything by the next codex update , i would be selling off all the most popular units as no doubt they are inline for a downgrade :'/

Vaktathi wrote:

purplefood wrote:.
SW hates sorcery and distrusts psykers. Like most of the IoM.

And yet can field more psykers than most armies and probably the best psykers

Errt. Try again, of armies that can actually field psychers, SW come in somewhere in the middle. The only codexs that SW beat out are those where the only psycher units comes in the HQ selection, in which case those armies are limited to two. I can't think of a single codex that can field a max of 3 of them, then SW has 4, then everybody else has more.

IG can field 32 psychers
Chaos - 8
BA - 5

Just to name a few armies that can put out more psychers. As for better, LD10 is still LD10. No SW psycher can cast more than 2 powers per turn, there are a few out there that can cast 3.

Granted they have a multiple good anti-psycher equipement. Which fits with their anti-psycher mentality. You have the tools to defeat your enemy. But its not the psycher itself doing the work.

Technically, if you go Mono-Tzeentch, your entire army is psyker =P

Jayden63 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

purplefood wrote:.
SW hates sorcery and distrusts psykers. Like most of the IoM.

And yet can field more psykers than most armies and probably the best psykers

Errt. Try again, of armies that can actually field psychers, SW come in somewhere in the middle. The only codexs that SW beat out are those where the only psycher units comes in the HQ selection, in which case those armies are limited to two. I can't think of a single codex that can field a max of 3 of them, then SW has 4, then everybody else has more.

IG can field 32 psychers
Chaos - 8
BA - 5

Just to name a few armies that can put out more psychers. As for better, LD10 is still LD10. No SW psycher can cast more than 2 powers per turn, there are a few out there that can cast 3.

Granted they have a multiple good anti-psycher equipement. Which fits with their anti-psycher mentality. You have the tools to defeat your enemy. But its not the psycher itself doing the work.

Note that, I said "MOST" armies, I'm not incorrect in this. Also, the correct IG number is 29 (the other 3 are Overseers) and 27 of those function as only 3, so functionally 5 if you take up 5 FoC slots, not the 4 in two FoC slots.

And lets face it, for CSM's, 6 of those psykers barely qualify, being basically there for a single S8 shot.

Technically, if you go Mono-Tzeentch, your entire army is psyker =P

Not really, only the HQ units and Thousand Sons Troops units squad leaders.

When you say best do you mean ruleswise? or fluff wise?
Because fluff hardly ever says anything bad about it's own codex.

It doesn't matter, in fluff they don't like Psykers, in game they use Psykers.
Fluff DOES NOT equate to game, we all know it.

Not only that but IIRC Space Wolves don't actually believe Rune Priests (or at least didn't during the HH) to be Psykers but actually gaining their abilities from nature, rather than the warp.

Just Dave wrote:It doesn't matter, in fluff they don't like Psykers, in game they use Psykers.
Fluff DOES NOT equate to game, we all know it.

And that's unfortunate, the game rules should reflect the fluff. Sometimes it does, thought it doesn't always, but its rather blatant in this case.

I completely understand what you are saying, and can agree to what you are saying, but i still have to somewhat disagree that this is the "creep" and the book is unfair.

In my local tourny scene there are now 3 Space wolves players (i was the original one playin the old dex cause space vikings rule!) the new dex came out i was rocking it, playing pretty much what i used to with some new flair, and i was still winning tournys mostly cause people didnt know how to play tourny. now with the new blogs and the new flair and the new tactics for tournaments....i think there are very FEW codex's that cant do "cheesy" and "ugh" when you look to them. Blood angels still have the "space marines...rerolling everything, and FNP!?" Nids still have the "Instant Death -everywhere- and suuuuper fast/deepstriking all over the place" i could go on, im just saying the problem isnt the codex, the problem is the new "atmosphere" gamers are adapting, where evey game, at every local, HAS to be tournament POWERED. you cant have anything fun and unique, it has to be last years 'ard boys kinda tournament set up. Or equially set up tournament. you just dont see fun things in games unless its very private because of the way the game has shifted to tournament play.



(btw, deamons have to bring fateweaver to be competative imho, otherwise they just get smoked like summer sausage! : )

My tuppence:

I was quite excited about the SWolves codex when it came out. They suit my Khornate nature down to the ground in fluff, and have a Norse (always good) theme to boot. But when it boiled down to my lists, it was always the same old stuff, and same old advice:

Rune Priests>Other HQs
Razorbacks = Necessary
3x LFs w/ 5x MLs per squad and a razorback each = Heavy Support
Grey Hunters x5 w/ meltagun and WG + PF + Combi-Melta x however many razorbacks you have.
Add MM/HF Land Speeders to taste.
Ignore all other choices.

That was basically what it boiled down to. To date, the only way i've managed to build a list unlike the above and stay reasonably effective have been at 1.5kpts or less and still had to include some elements, such as the Long Fangs (simply because our other HS choices are too fragile, suck or are too expensive, with LFs being affordable and reliable, not to mention effective; it's like being told to kill someone in a suit of armour at range and being given a selection of pebbles and a missile launcher, why would you choose the pebbles when you can simply wipe him away with the missile launcher?).

My idea of Space Wolves were battle-hardened and battle-hungry marines that strived to get up close and personal; what I got was an army that rests on a bed of missile launchers and las/plas razorbacks, with token troops to capture the odd objective.

Avatar 720 wrote:My tuppence:

I was quite excited about the SWolves codex when it came out. They suit my Khornate nature down to the ground in fluff, and have a Norse (always good) theme to boot. But when it boiled down to my lists, it was always the same old stuff, and same old advice:

Rune Priests>Other HQs
Razorbacks = Necessary
3x LFs w/ 5x MLs per squad and a razorback each = Heavy Support
Grey Hunters x5 w/ meltagun and WG + PF + Combi-Melta x however many razorbacks you have.
Add MM/HF Land Speeders to taste.
Ignore all other choices.

That was basically what it boiled down to. To date, the only way i've managed to build a list unlike the above and stay reasonably effective have been at 1.5kpts or less and still had to include some elements, such as the Long Fangs (simply because our other HS choices are too fragile, suck or are too expensive, with LFs being affordable and reliable, not to mention effective; it's like being told to kill someone in a suit of armour at range and being given a selection of pebbles and a missile launcher, why would you choose the pebbles when you can simply wipe him away with the missile launcher?).

My idea of Space Wolves were battle-hardened and battle-hungry marines that strived to get up close and personal; what I got was an army that rests on a bed of missile launchers and las/plas razorbacks, with token troops to capture the odd objective.

I hate to say this, but if thats all you get out of the SW codex, your doing it wrong. So much more available than razorback spam.

Yeah the SW codex has a bit of an "easy button" look about it. But there are so many different ways of playing the list, and strongly effective ways too.

When I played against a logan wing in a 1750pt tourny, I was less then impresses. So they are good in close combat? Shoot them. So they can shoot? Assault them. They are just marines, and As a marine player, I know that we have some big weaknesses. All you need to do is calm down and fight it like all other marines. Remember, Jack of all trades, master of none.

At my GW there's a ten year old who plays SW, he always beats me because he has 2 special characters at 500 points. Is that even allowed?

Honestly I agree with the OP. Personal Story.

I play Orks, and my brother played marines. We both mostly non-optimized armies. We took some units we thought were good, and then duked it out. When my brother was playing marines, I would win, maybe a little over half the time. Eventually he decided to get a new army, new models and everything. At first he wanted to do a Canis army, with a bunch of Fenresian Wolves and thunder wolves. Eventually, he ended up with a "standard" wolf army, just because it is so much better. Grey hunters in rhinos, Thunder wolves, Wolf Guard, Rune Priest, and Long Fangs. There are SO many things in that army that my Orks hate. Even normal people want to win their games.

1) JotWW is so good against orks. They rely on having huge mobs to protect a PK Nob or other character. Couple this with low Int and you are golden. I have lost so many PK nobs and it essentially makes the squad of boys Nearly Useless. Also loosing a Painboy from my Nob mob is really bad as well. If he can roll well, he can neuter my army very quickly.

2) Long Fangs base are grey hunters, but they have 9 LD instead of 8 and they cost the same as the grey hunters. If anything they should be more expensive.

3) Grey Hunters have SO many attacks, once you factor in counter attack (almost always works), Wolf Standards, MotW, and 2 CCWs. My orks could very easily take out tactical squads. They had around 13 attacks at the most, and that just does not kill many orks. Once you start getting around 35 attacks, that takes down enough orks that I Lose combat and either take Fearless saves or run away/get swept.

Honestly, I think what they were trying to do with the space wolf codex was balance it by making their LD 8 for grey hunters instead of 9 like a tactical squad. The problem is that in a small squad, (razorback) you have room for the wolf quard to boost it to 9. In a Larger squad, it is harder to kill enough guys to force a LD test, and they do not lose combat either. IF LD was a very important stat in the game, Grey hunters would be hurt for their lack of it. It is not however a very important stat, and as such Grey hunters are undercosted for what they do. I would say they belong at about the 17-18 pt range to be balanced.

I just get the feeling that the play testing for the space wolves was not very extensive. it would only take one game against JotWW to see how anoying it can be against certain races. It would only take one game against regular marines to see how much better the gray hunters are than a tactical squad. It feels like it was a fandex, where nothing was tested or checked, but they just put down what they felt was a good price.

The same thing can be said for guard I think. Chimeras are just worth more than the 55 pts you pay for them. The cynic in me thinks that GW is messing with the balance to sell kits. This can be seen with the Nid book, as Carnifexes were Nerfed in order to sell more Trygon kits... or maybe they are just bad with balance... I do not know.

I think that the rest of the 5th edition Armies (baring Guard) are mostly well balanced. They are able to win, but are also able to loose. I think that the only way to beat the wolves is to tailor your list to beat them, which then limits the armies/lists you can play.

Vaktathi wrote:

Technically, if you go Mono-Tzeentch, your entire army is psyker =P

Not really, only the HQ units and Thousand Sons Troops units squad leaders.

I was actually refering to the Daemon Army, not the CSM one. Hence "technically" because game-wise all of those "psychic" abilities are just normal shooting abilites or innate buffs.

The aspect of this that concerns me the most is not in fact the disenfranchising effect that a single (startlingly) imbalanced codex has on the player community. It's the likely cure to this problem that truly depresses me: ever-spiraling incremental nerfdom.

As a game designer, (and doubly so as a for-profit business) , you only need the one moment of weakness wherein you offer Easy Power over Disciplined Diversity to start the cycle. Once out there, the likely answer to Easy Power is always "More Easy" and "More Power!"

GW caved on the SW codex, in my humble opinion, and the consequences will echo through the remainder of 5e as the codices will have to be either Easier or More Powerful to draw competitive interest, and of course, sales. I believe we've already seen it with the BAs, as both C:SW and C:BA are considerably Easier Power than C:SM (your father's Easy Power codex!).

Redbeard's overall position of "this basically sucks" is an understandable one to me, and I am saddened to realize that it's likely to suck more before they're done.

...

The only real upside here (for me) is that the abundant SW and BA power lists have diminished my shame at running my Salamanders ( Vulkan!) successor chapter.

Generally when something like this comes up the people will call for a nerf. When they do nerf it, the people will say they went too far and then take away the nerf, causing everyone to think they're overpowered again. Unfortunately unlike an MMO, this problem usually takes years, if not decades, for GW to fix due to how only one codex per edition is ever released (with the exception of 3rd).

Jayden63 wrote:I hate to say this, but if thats all you get out of the SW codex, your doing it wrong. So much more available than razorback spam.

Yeah the SW codex has a bit of an "easy button" look about it. But there are so many different ways of playing the list, and strongly effective ways too.

Exactly. Ultimately however it's the "easy button" that's often pressed.

Vaktathi wrote:

Just Dave wrote:It doesn't matter, in fluff they don't like Psykers, in game they use Psykers.
Fluff DOES NOT equate to game, we all know it.

And that's unfortunate, the game rules should reflect the fluff. Sometimes it does, thought it doesn't always, but its rather blatant in this case.

They should but they rarely do. In the BA codex for instance the AdMech is annoyed at the BA for not sharing their nice new shiny predator STC they then go and give them a freaking plane for testing. Fluff doesn't always match the rules and vice versa it should but it doesn't.

Just Dave wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:I hate to say this, but if thats all you get out of the SW codex, your doing it wrong. So much more available than razorback spam.

Yeah the SW codex has a bit of an "easy button" look about it. But there are so many different ways of playing the list, and strongly effective ways too.

Exactly. Ultimately however it's the "easy button" that's often pressed.

That IMO is the problem with the gamer not the codex design or intent. Its like playing a video game where you choose to play the easy difficulty instead of nightmare.

The codex offers competitive design for any type of army style. The fact that it can do that, shows the success of the codex design.

Oh yeah, I'm not going to deny it is largely a problem with the gamer. Although they are still exploiting the [lack of] flaws within the Codex IMHO. But yeah, I agree with it being largely a problem of the player.

Jayden63 wrote:
That IMO is the problem with the gamer not the codex design or intent. Its like playing a video game where you choose to play the easy difficulty instead of nightmare.

The codex offers competitive design for any type of army style. The fact that it can do that, shows the success of the codex design.

I beg to differ on both points.

First, if the problem is with th gamer, then the even larger problem is with the community attitude, as advocated on any number of blogs, that winning is the only thing that matters. I don't know how much you have paid attention to the tournament scene, but things like sportsmanship and appearance have been lambasted in the last couple of years. The competitive community doesn't want fun events, they don't want a variety of armies, they want the guy who crushes the most heads to take all the prizes.

And the blogs and podcasts that are out there supporting this mentality are backing this up. You'll see things like "Hi, I'm newb gamer, can you help me with my list because my friend beats me all the time", and the response from the authority on the blog goes along the lines of "You'll never win any games with a list like that, what you need is 15 long fangs with missles..."

Is this really the advice that a friendly gamer needs to hear? For that matter, I don't think it's the advice that a tournament gamer needs to hear. But the community that is comprised of competitive types has taken a turn towards winning is everything, and the other reasons that people might pick an army (theme, appearance) take a backseat.


Secondly, you have a codex that can play multiple different styles, all more effectively than any other codex. That's not a success of codex design, that's a failure of codex design. Successful codex design is not done in a vacuum, it's done as part of a larger game design. When one codex is so extremely successful that people abandon their own codexes in order to use your rules (in spite of fluff or appearance), that's a failure in terms of appropriately designing the book within the overall game.

There's no reason that people should be playing Dark Wolves, Chaos Wolves, Ultrawolves, or the like, if the Wolf codex design was a success. It's not. It's out of place.

Mr Nobody wrote:At my GW there's a ten year old who plays SW, he always beats me because he has 2 special characters at 500 points. Is that even allowed?

As long as they have the minimum required (1 HQ 2 Troops) then yes it is. It's kind of stupid how they don't require a set point limit on special characters anymore but it's been that way for a while now.

First, if the problem is with th gamer, then the even larger problem is with the community attitude, as advocated on any number of blogs, that winning is the only thing that matters. I don't know how much you have paid attention to the tournament scene, but things like sportsmanship and appearance have been lambasted in the last couple of years. The competitive community doesn't want fun events, they don't want a variety of armies, they want the guy who crushes the most heads to take all the prizes.

I don't think that is necessarily true, and is a common "anti-competitive" attitude I see often.

What most competitive players want is for the person to win a tournament be the person who wins games, putting the emphasis on player skill rather then scoring placed upon an opponents perception. How many times have we need to see sportsmanship used as a weapon to consider the possibility it is flawed. Many tournaments in recent memory have proven that people just don't suddenly turn into jerks when there is no sportsmanship. Army appearance has it's place. I think there should always be an award for those players who put an honest effort into their army, but to effect the final outcome? I don't know about you, but I have been frustrated a few times that my actual performance in a tournament was high, but I lost out of placing because my army wasn't as pretty as another's army.

Is this really the advice that a friendly gamer needs to hear? For that matter, I don't think it's the advice that a tournament gamer needs to hear. But the community that is comprised of competitive types has taken a turn towards winning is everything, and the other reasons that people might pick an army (theme, appearance) take a backseat.

I can see that, but why can't we have both? I know for certain, that I can build an Iron Hands Themed Space Marine list, and do fairly well with it in the current environment. I have faith in my skill as a player, and the diverse army list choices the SM codex provides, that I may not have it as easy as the Space Wolf player that brought "defoult build 25", but I have a reasonable chance at winning consistently, even against other good players with the Space Wolves army.

Secondly, you have a codex that can play multiple different styles, all more effectively than any other codex. That's not a success of codex design, that's a failure of codex design. Successful codex design is not done in a vacuum, it's done as part of a larger game design. When one codex is so extremely successful that people abandon their own codexes in order to use your rules (in spite of fluff or appearance), that's a failure in terms of appropriately designing the book within the overall game.

This goes back to my earlier point that every other 5th edition codex, including Tyranids, can build lists that can handle Space Wolves rather well. Granted, it is harder, especially with Tyranids, but I don't see Space Wolves having as massive as an advantage as you are postulating. Yes, they have cheap Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Rune Priests. Most everything else they have is higher priced then then similar items in other codexes, and that is the balance of their book. If you can exploint those weaknesses but out assaulting them or out shooting them and apply concepts like good target priority, allocation of reasources, and manuvering, you can handle them rather well.

There's no reason that people should be playing Dark Wolves, Chaos Wolves, Ultrawolves, or the like, if the Wolf codex design was a success. It's not. It's out of place.

Honestly, the players that are doing so, no offense, but they are not really trying to build their own skill, but merely hopping on the internet bandwagon. I play Blood Angels, and I can, and have, consistently beat Space Wolves of all kinds of builds with vary different builds myself. The more I practiced and got good with my army against many different good opponents with good armies, including against Space Wolves, I feared them less and less. New Dark Eldar will have all the tools necessary to knock Space Wolves off this pedestal in people's mind, give it 6 month, I promise you that.

I will disagree with the idea that every other army out there is a Sapce Wolf but this is based solely on personal experience.

At the local store where I game there is a core of about 2 dozen players at least half of which play Space Marines on a fairly regular basis. Of that group there is exactly 1 Space Wolf player and he has been playing them since 3rd edition. None of the other marine players have switched over to wolves and as far as I am aware this has not even been considered. The real funny thing is that all of a sudden the marine army seeing a resurgence locally is Dark Angels as no less than five players are now running a DA army with three of those being new DA, but not new marine, players. This despite most people pointing out the DA shortcomings.

So at least locally we are not seeing this Space Wolf problem.

Mahu wrote:
I don't think that is necessarily true, and is a common "anti-competitive" attitude I see often.

What most competitive players want is for the person to win a tournament be the person who wins games, putting the emphasis on player skill rather then scoring placed upon an opponents perception.

First off, I'm as competitive as the next guy. I don't have an anti-competitive attitude, I just think that to be successful, 40k events have to appeal to the average gamers, not just the highly competitive.

That said, the discussion of how soft scores factor into tournaments has been hashed out many times. I think it's semantics to bemoan that the guy who had the best combination of appearance and game scores gets the 'overall' award, when there's a 'Best General' award available for just winning games as well. Anyone who is bitter over losing a combined score (called overall or renaissance man or whatever) to an army that looks better than theirs simply doesn't understand the concept of a combined score. If you intend to award a combined award to the person who won the most games, why even call it a combined score?

This goes back to my earlier point that every other 5th edition codex, including Tyranids, can build lists that can handle Space Wolves rather well. Granted, it is harder, especially with Tyranids, but I don't see Space Wolves having as massive as an advantage as you are postulating. Yes, they have cheap Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, and Rune Priests. Most everything else they have is higher priced then then similar items in other codexes, and that is the balance of their book. If you can exploint those weaknesses but out assaulting them or out shooting them and apply concepts like good target priority, allocation of reasources, and manuvering, you can handle them rather well.

It's a lot harder. I have no doubt that any codex can yield a list that a good player can use to beat an average player with a generic space wolf list. But, that leads to the next questions: A) Is that list that beats the Space Wolves balanced enough to also beat other armies, B) is the cost-of-entry to that army lower than switching to Space Wolves, and C) is that list easy enough to play and understand that it will persuade the average gamers who have hopped onto the wolf bandwagon to hop off it? (In which case, do we simply go through this again with that new list?)

Honestly, the players that are doing so, no offense, but they are not really trying to build their own skill, but merely hopping on the internet bandwagon. I play Blood Angels, and I can, and have, consistently beat Space Wolves of all kinds of builds with vary different builds myself. The more I practiced and got good with my army against many different good opponents with good armies, including against Space Wolves, I feared them less and less. New Dark Eldar will have all the tools necessary to knock Space Wolves off this pedestal in people's mind, give it 6 month, I promise you that.

Sure, they're hopping on the bandwagon. It's a good bandwagon. Who cares if they're trying to build their skill - they're probably not, they're trying to win games instead. If using a better army and the same skill gets them the same result as putting in the effort to learn their game with the same army, which is faster? And, if they switch armies AND put in the time to learning their game, isn't that even better?

And, it has a low barrier to entry. I mean, let's say I'm playing Marines and I keep losing to Space Wolves. Do I pick up a handful of new models and call my guys Space Wolves, or do I drop the grand that it would take to make a Dark Eldar army, and hope that I picked the right stuff that will actually be effective? There's a very low barrier-to-entry for hopping on the Space Wolf bandwagon for anyone who already has MEQ models.

On top of that, whatever the Dark Eldar do against space wolves, they're also going to do against all other Marines, probably easier.

Think of it this way. A player plays in 100 competitive games. Do you believe that, with all other factors remaining constant, they'll win more or less games if they play Space Wolves instead of Chaos Marines or Vanilla Marines? Right, it's not that Space Wolves go undefeated, but that the cost-to-benefits ratio is just higher with the Space Wolf codex, and that will account for extra wins.

I would have to agree, about the Space Wolves Codex is OP and everything that Space Marines would like to have can't. I started my SW when I received the Black Box at the beginning of the year and realize the power of this codex. Remeber that Tyranids Codex come out before the SW. Since the SW Codex, every other Codex are trying to match the SW codex.This does not include Tyranids, they miss the boat by alot. DE codex with all posion weapons and weapons that can cause instant death, plus there a picture of Space Wolves fighting against DE, come on GW we know that ya'lls are up to something.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Remeber that Tyranids Codex come out before the SW.

Pups came out in October 09. Nids came out in Jan 10. People expected a lot from the nid codex based on all the goodies that the pups got.

Slightly OT but are SW about the same size as ordinary SM, or bigger? They look bigger in the pictures.

Ordinarily they should be about the same size...

So about 10 feet tall.

Somehow I thought they would be taller, probably because Vikings are so tall.

Probably just their viking helmets that make them look taller than all the other Space Marines...

Seriously though, I don't recall ever hearing that the Space Wolves are physically taller or [muscularly] superior to a normal Space Marine in any way, probably just your age showing KK.

Like policemen you mean? No, they look young.

I just mean the pictures make them look taller.

Kilkrazy wrote:Like policemen you mean? No, they look young.

I just mean the pictures make them look taller.

I know what you mean here.

I know what you mean, but I don't know of any reason behind it, it may just be different artists or context I don't know...

I maintain it's just your age getting to you. Both of you...

Dude if it's my age getting to me then i'm gonna be senile and dead in about 5 years...

Are all the people who say "any army CAN be made to beat Space Wolves" aware that most people try to make a take all comers list? I don't switch my stuff just because I'm going against a specific list; that's just low and frankly un-fun. How hard is it to counter pick?

I think what people and the OP are saying is that it is hard to make effective take all comers lists with certain armies and still go toe to toe with Space Wolves.

Tyranids are a great example. Most Tyranid take all comers lists will include a Tervigon and Hive Guard. Why? Because these units are either very good (in the case of the Tervigon) and essential to remain competitive (in the case of the Hive Guard). A Space Wolves player can drop all of these units in a hole with a LD 10 psychic test and a characteristic test that fails 66% of the time. Poof- that 6 wound T6 model is gone. Poof, those T6 2 wound models that don't need LOS are gone. It's an uphill climb for certain armies for sure. And that's just picking out a specific hard counter that most SW lists have.

So basically the problem with SW is that it is hard to counter with all-comers lists because:
They can have very good very ceap support units and lots of them (Rune priests)
They have cheap and effective infantry that can take 2 special weapons.
They can have deathstars that due to wound allocation sneaky ness can be very effective.
All of these factors makes them hard to beat not impossibe but hard especially for an all comers list.

First off, I'm as competitive as the next guy. I don't have an anti-competitive attitude, I just think that to be successful, 40k events have to appeal to the average gamers, not just the highly competitive.

That said, the discussion of how soft scores factor into tournaments has been hashed out many times. I think it's semantics to bemoan that the guy who had the best combination of appearance and game scores gets the 'overall' award, when there's a 'Best General' award available for just winning games as well. Anyone who is bitter over losing a combined score (called overall or renaissance man or whatever) to an army that looks better than theirs simply doesn't understand the concept of a combined score. If you intend to award a combined award to the person who won the most games, why even call it a combined score?

That is fair, and in the spirit of the purpose of this thread, I won't pursue that anymore. There are plenty of other of those discussions.

It's a lot harder. I have no doubt that any codex can yield a list that a good player can use to beat an average player with a generic space wolf list. But, that leads to the next questions: A) Is that list that beats the Space Wolves balanced enough to also beat other armies, B) is the cost-of-entry to that army lower than switching to Space Wolves, and C) is that list easy enough to play and understand that it will persuade the average gamers who have hopped onto the wolf bandwagon to hop off it? (In which case, do we simply go through this again with that new list?)

All I can relate is the experience in my area. We had enough good players, playing varied and different lists that beat Space Wolves enough, to discourage those players who would just play Space Wolves because they are easy. That wasn't by design, mind you, but just the natural progression here, and I think that is ultimately the best action. If you dislike Space Wolves, but have an army you love, play that army to it's advantages, take units and abilities that upset the Space Wolves game,whist still being overall competitive, and beat them, or at the very least make it a close game. My biggest problem with this argument is that their is a perception that Space Wolves are an easy win. Now, their tactics, strategies, and list choices are probably the easiest in the game, I am not arguing that, but being on both sides of the equation, playing Space Wolves, and playing against them, I know they have their own set of weaknesses and ways to take care of that with my own army.

Sure, they're hopping on the bandwagon. It's a good bandwagon. Who cares if they're trying to build their skill - they're probably not, they're trying to win games instead. If using a better army and the same skill gets them the same result as putting in the effort to learn their game with the same army, which is faster? And, if they switch armies AND put in the time to learning their game, isn't that even better?

The fundamental disagreement we have is that Space Wolves is a better army.

And, it has a low barrier to entry. I mean, let's say I'm playing Marines and I keep losing to Space Wolves. Do I pick up a handful of new models and call my guys Space Wolves, or do I drop the grand that it would take to make a Dark Eldar army, and hope that I picked the right stuff that will actually be effective? There's a very low barrier-to-entry for hopping on the Space Wolf bandwagon for anyone who already has MEQ models.

If you like Space Marines and are loosing to Space Wolves, the cheapest thing to do is to find a good Space Marine player and ask them how they deal with Space Wolves. Most likely, the players that are struggling with SM will struggle when they switch to SW because the fundamentals on how they approach the game just are not there yet. As veteran players, we should be able to advise new players with whatever army they start on what their best options are, or how they approach the game.

On top of that, whatever the Dark Eldar do against space wolves, they're also going to do against all other Marines, probably easier.

Not really. Dark Eldar's primary advantages against Marines, namely their supreme anti-infantry capabilities, loose their effectiveness against FNP Blood Angels, and fully Mech Space Marines. The fact that Long Fangs are not tanks is what makes DE a good match up. A Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons which should kill 1 to 2 Long Fangs a turn of shooting, does nothing against an Auto-Laz Predator.

Think of it this way. A player plays in 100 competitive games. Do you believe that, with all other factors remaining constant, they'll win more or less games if they play Space Wolves instead of Chaos Marines or Vanilla Marines? Right, it's not that Space Wolves go undefeated, but that the cost-to-benefits ratio is just higher with the Space Wolf codex, and that will account for extra wins.

I think if you have 2 players of equal skill, play a 100 games, with nothing but average dice rolls, of Space Marines versus Space Wolves, with the ability to change your list with the requirement that is still has to be a balanced tournament list, that the Space wolves might win one or 2 games more then their Space Marine opponent. I know that is about my win record, and I was playing Salamanders with a Thunderfire Cannon of all things.

Maybe my perception is skewed, based on my own record, and the players in my area. I can assure you, I play no scrubs. My roommate has won 4 consequtive RTTs with Space Wolves. That is 4 in a row, and I can successfully challenge him with other armies, fairly well.

Almost a year now and we still have people complaining about the SW codex.

A little personal history:

I have played since early 3rd Edition. My first army was the Salamnaders box army that I played as Salamanders, then switched over to Dark Angels because I like plasma more then meltas. I then switched over to Space Wolves before finally settling on 13th Co when Codex Eye of Terror hit the shelves. Got tired of the game and shelved them until I heard about the new codex coming out and prayed that it would include rules for running a 13th Co. Alas, I got screwed and almost did not pick up the game again, but I did to see how the new dex would play.

For about 6 months after the codex hit the shelves I was hammered, EVERY single game. It was a complete learning experience all over to find the synergy and learn what the army had to offer. The strengths and weaknesses are evident in the army when making a poor list or not understanding the capabilities of the individual units.

Now how does this even relate to the topic at hand?

As has been pointed out, it is the gamer, NOT the codex that has led to this so called "Space Wolf Effect". People are not learning their army, not delving into the effectiveness of the core troops or how they work hand in hand with their elite brethren. They are riding the backs of people that have done the Mathhammer of min/max and then went to the LGS with a shopping list in hand. Even then, the results were mixed. They still didn't know how to play the army, they would just try to copy what they had read. I am even guilty of this after the Adepticon win by Goatboy. I saw what he did with his multiple thunderlord list and went to town. Turns out, I hated it. I kept reading into my army and came up with my own core set of rules when building my army.

Now the truth of the matter is that this is NOT a new concept! Where did Vulkan TH/SS spam lists come from? What about Nidzilla lists? What about the origin of MSU razorback spam? And now we are looking at MSU RAS lists with BA and who knows what will be be the min/max for DE. Furthermore, the competitive list is not a guaranteed win. A bad player can make the perfect list horrible and that is the case pretty much case all the time. It doesn't matter if he started with a Vulkan list, moved to a Razorspam list, to a SW TWC list, and now to a DE Venom/Ravager spam list. He will still lose.

Now as to the basis that you are seeing Ultrawolves, Dark Wolves, Blood Wolves, Saiim-Hann Wolves, etc, etc partly is the bandwagoneers and partly because people just get tired of their armies and want to try out something different. Others like the Space Wolves and hate the fluff of Norse mythology meets Grimdark technology so they DIY and play using the rules they like, just not the fluff they dislike. The thing is, the bandwagoneers will be playing Ultra Angels, Templar Wolves, and whatever else comes out when those new codices come out. You will have the same complaint but it will be The <insert new codex> Effect.

So as to my core SW rule set of list building:

1. The strength of any army should be their core troops. Grey Hunters are at the core of my army. Everything else is to support them and be supported by them. My 1750pt list comprises of 3 max Grey Hunter squads in Rhinos. My first jump to 2k points is another Grey Hunter pack. 2250? Another Grey Hunter pack.

2. The strength of one "hardened" infantry unit is both mentally and physically effective to any enemy. My "hardened" unit is either 1 WGTDA unit in a drop pod/Land Raider, a couple of TWC, or a couple of Dreadnoughts. That is all dependent only on points level being played. This unit never takes up more then one FOC slot for my lists. It isn't meant to carry the army (see Grey Hunters), it is meant to support the army (see Grey Hunters).

3. Fire Support is not everything. Long Fang spam does not make an army. Their main trick is ineffective after one casualty. To add an ablative wound, be prepared to pay for two other Wolf Guard (or see what I do below). I only use one pack of missile launchers, effective against light to medium armor via krak and mob or densely packed via frag. Again, not as gamer winners (see Grey Hunters) but to support the game winners (see Grey Hunters). I sometimes add a second pack at 2500pts and it is geared out for anti-infantry with plasma cannons and heavy bolters due to the higher troop numbers that are seen at that point level.

3. Utility is paramount. My Rune Priest serves almost as my Swiss Army knife in my list. He discourages pop up/flat out units via Tempest Wrath and adds fire support via Living Lightning to my Grey Hunters by attaching him to my Long Fang pack. His psychic defense is limited due to range but paramount to holding the back line. He also serves as an ablative wound before having to take the Long Fang pack leader and losing splitfire.

4. Lastly, delivery system. The most effective and devastating way to deliver a wolf lord is via a TWM. He is costly, coming in at almost 300pts, but like my "hardened" infantry unit, he serves both a psychological threat as well as a physical threat. He hardly ever makes his points back in kills and when he does, it is usually at the loss of himself. He does serve his role in causing an opponent to change his plans due to his presence as well as his accompanied Fenrisian wolf pack.

In closing, it isn't the Space Wolves dex, BA dex, DE dex, SM dex, etc, etc, etc that makes an army effective. It is on the players shoulders to make or break their army. I have been winning consistently now with my approach to building a Space Wolves army list against various armies and drawing to those opponents that truly know their own. If you have a problem with the Space Wolves army, my advice would be to first look at your own army list and see where your shortcomings are holding you back. Pointing to a codex and crying foul just seems to scream poor sport and seems revealing of lack of knowledge of your own army.

That's the kind of attitude i have ^^^

No-one is suggesting that armies play themselves, or that SWs are invincible.

I read the OP... sounds like crying in your beer. I remember Blackmoor bitterly crying about how strong were orks. The strength of a codex is like the weather, wait long enough & it will change. A good player can beat SW or mech IG. What I found is lots of average players gravitate towards these armies so they can win some games... Kind of shameful really but that's the way it's always been.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:I read the OP... sounds like crying in your beer. I remember Blackmoor bitterly crying about how strong were orks. The strength of a codex is like the weather, wait long enough & it will change. A good player can beat SW or mech IG. What I found is lots of average players gravitate towards these armies so they can win some games... Kind of shameful really but that's the way it's always been.

And the jist of it all is those migrations are of players that do not even know the army. Like I said, they read about it on a blog and then go to the store with their shopping list without having never even played a basic game with the army

The closest thing I can relate it to is my training and competing in BrazilianJiu Jitsu. I have competed at the state level and at the Pan Am Brazilian Championships. This year I am planning on attending the Pan Ams again as well as the Worlds.

Now it is paramount that any person studying BJJ be completely knowledgable in the foundational basics such as closed guard, mount, armbar, triangle choke, back mount, side control, etc, etc. Every single advanced technique is derived from the basic position. The mantra any new comer to BJJ must learn is,

"Position then submission."

Now in the past decade or so techniques have been developed by other very advanced BJJ practioners. Rubber guard for instance was developed by the amazing Eddie Bravo. However, new students get his dvd or book and before they ever have the fundamentals down, they are trying to incorporate the Rubber guard. They might beat people of equal or lesser experience, but against anyone of even slightly more experience or a grasp of the fundamentals, they are made fools. These students n ever grasp that before Eddie Bravo ever developed the Rubber guard he was already amazing at basic BJJ.

And that is where the problem lies, the player, not the codex. Nothing in the codex promotes min?max. Nothing promotes tri-thunderlord lists. The player finds this lists because he doesn't know the army and all he wants to do is win. In reality they are short changing themselves in the long run.

By knowing my army I can play several variants of my core list by applying the basic principles I listed in my other post.

SW are the flavor of the moment of the easy codex Not necessarily cheezy codex The player is the core of the problem and the fix. My lament is not the 3xLF ML. The all answers codex is a bit of an issue. Anti-psyker, anti-MC, anti-personel., antitank that is survivable there are very few codexes that offer all of these traits in pretty equal measure. CSM comes close but has no anti-psyker and nothing anti-MC as cheap as a rune priest.

The core issue is the competitive mindset - that makes all choices into a math equations effectiveness divided by cost equals the right choice. The key that we -meaning dakkaites- often fall into is that there is an empirical one definition of effectiveness. Style and use as well as preference of the individual player really defines effectiveness. I play a lot of armies in 40k and enjoy the variation of strengths and weaknesses each brings. While I don't min/max there is always a point of choice 1 or 2 and it is pretty obvious which one is the better choice based on my definition of effectiveness versus the cost in points.
This is the current issue of SW for me. Give me 85 options but then beat me over the head with the effectiveness of 2 or 3 options that are superior to the other choices. I, along with every other player, is put in the awkward position of feigning ignorance or dogmatic following fluff to avoid taking the obvious most effective choices. Every codex of late suffers from this malady to one degree or another. Then it only takes one more slippery comparison - if I am not already vested - if I place the 10 or so codexes side by side and there are 2 or 3 that stand out as the better options. That is all we have been collectively arguing about for 4 pages now.

To quote an old cartoon, "We have met the enemy and it is us."