See poll.

Yes, whether they want to or not. I recall fluff that they were being mind-controlled by the Tau in some method, though this might be older or out of date fluff.

You have just mis-remembered the Tau codex.

Melissia wrote:Yes, whether they want to or not. I recall fluff that they were being mind-controlled by the Tau in some method, though this might be older or out of date fluff.

It was a rumor in a white dwarf. Not cannon, unless someone has something else?

Well, a fluff quotation/page citation would be nice then, as not all of us have every single codex in front of them at all times

Kilkrazy wrote:You have just mis-remembered the Tau codex.

So I take you are on the "Vespid are idealists" side of the fence then?

Whether they believe in the greater good or not I don't know, however I do believe they have chosen to be part of it.

The Tau are the ones who encourage others to join, a lot of the other races could join for purely selfish reasons. When you have an enemy the size of the imperium of man it's worth making friends.

So anyway back ontopic, I think the helmet is just a communicator, from what i have seen of them vespid are very insect like which means the couldn't comunicate with the Tau verbaly.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:You have just mis-remembered the Tau codex.

So I take you are on the "Vespid are idealists" side of the fence then?

I'm on the "what the codex says" side of the fence.

Let's not allow the facts to get in the way of a great story.

4M2A wrote:Whether they believe in the greater good or not I don't know, however I do believe they have chosen to be part of it.

The Tau are the ones who encourage others to join, a lot of the other races could join for purely selfish reasons. When you have an enemy the size of the imperium of man it's worth making friends.

So anyway back ontopic, I think the helmet is just a communicator, from what i have seen of them vespid are very insect like which means the couldn't comunicate with the Tau verbaly.

Page 16 of the codex explains that the communion helms were created by the earth caste so that the water caste (diplomats) could communicate with the vespid strain leaders.

or is that what they want you to believe!?

Though both results would make a good story and vispid dont really look very evil, and though I hate the idea of saying so, i side with the mind control. Just seems a bit too nice, I havent seen one truely nice civelisation ever. They always tend to get wasted by selfish beings to fast, like humans.

Ledabot wrote:Though both results would make a good story and vispid dont really look very evil, and though I hate the idea of saying so, i side with the mind control. Just seems a bit too nice, I havent seen one truely nice civelisation ever. They always tend to get wasted by selfish beings to fast, like humans.

Not being in Imperial Space helps.

I just reminds me of that african tribe thats closest word for enemy ment friend we have not met yet. They got sent to the us as slaves and they are now all dead. The last one died a very unhappy person.

page 16 also says that they are regarded as "skillful and reliable allies, an honor yet to be paid to the mercenary Kroot of Pech."

I find this funny since they suck in game. lol.

don’t doubt you though.
just what I believe when it comes to a made up universe that has no cannoned info on the topic.

It's codex...that's about as cannon as it gets.

I am talking bout the mind control. there is no cannon proof for that tau, vespid or anybody is being controlled, but it is very heavily implied.

Yes they believe.

Referring to the total submission of the Vespid to the Ethereals, the codex states the following :"It has been whispered that this acceptance is linked to the fact that all of the race's leaders wear the interface helmets given to them by the Tau, but no evidence of this claim has proved forthcoming". Take that for what you will. Personally, I choose to believe that the helmets do have some kind of controlling effect.

Maurin wrote:Referring to the total submission of the Vespid to the Ethereals, the codex states the following :"It has been whispered that this acceptance is linked to the fact that all of the race's leaders wear the interface helmets given to them by the Tau, but no evidence of this claim has proved forthcoming". Take that for what you will. Personally, I choose to believe that the helmets do have some kind of controlling effect.

This statement is directly made to cause a discussion like this. Why would it be their if it was false? Common sense tells us that not mentioning this point would very likely lead to the assumption that vespid are free willed but this statement means that their is a possibility and most likely truth to the statement.

Maurin wrote:Referring to the total submission of the Vespid to the Ethereals, the codex states the following :"It has been whispered that this acceptance is linked to the fact that all of the race's leaders wear the interface helmets given to them by the Tau, but no evidence of this claim has proved forthcoming". Take that for what you will. Personally, I choose to believe that the helmets do have some kind of controlling effect.

Hmmm. You know what I think that GW has found a way here to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted something that would appeal to kids who wanted "good guys" and threw in some anime style possibly to break into new markets. And upon first glance that is what they appear to be.

However, they know they also have a lot of old school fans who like their grim darkness so they keep throwing out little tidbits like that. The ones who like the darker aspects of the universe tend to know more and the more they dig the more they find. So to them the T'au don't appear to be good guys at all.

GW doesn't get a lot of love round Dakka to to what I call "cynical nerd syndrome" but quite frankly they are good at what they do.

of course they are good at what they do (makin money) but i would like some more fluff to eat.

Vespid strain leaders wear the communion helm. The helm allows them to understand the Tau language (possibly other allies too), and in turn speak back. The mind control element is hinted at from an Imperial point of view because they cannot fathom xenos working together on mutual ground.

The Tau love everybody, even you. Even if you won't love them back. Why won't you love them back?

I want too!!! i realy do!!

Thing is The Vespid just joined up for the cause on day 1, no questions asked, nothing wanted in return. Pretty much the perfect allies. Apparently the theory going around is The Etherals are part insectoid.

I think I've developed a theory. I think the Etherals may have inadvertently discovered a race that by happenstance is affected by their magic pixie dust.
Serendipity? Yes, but that's par for the course for The Tau.

that is a much nicer way of mind control. I would put chemical control over shiny hat any day.

nicer way of mind control? I guess if your gonna get mind controlled that's the way to do it...

Ledabot wrote:I am talking bout the mind control. there is no cannon proof for that tau, vespid or anybody is being controlled, but it is very heavily implied.

Like much Tau info, it is from an Imperial source and is intended for Imperial readers.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I am talking bout the mind control. there is no cannon proof for that tau, vespid or anybody is being controlled, but it is very heavily implied.

Like much Tau info, it is from an Imperial source and is intended for Imperial readers.

I hate that arguement. You're basically saying "well it's written in English so it must have been by humans". Not all the lore is ment to be from an Imperial Bias. Much of it is simply the narrator like you would find in any book.

All the source does is provide a rumour (which is unlikely to be spread by loyal Tau at any rate) and raises the issue of mind control. It's not any sort of irrefutable proof, but certainly enough to encourage discussion. If I didn't know better I'd say that GW purposefully made the statement as ambiguous as possible. But this is GW.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I am talking bout the mind control. there is no cannon proof for that tau, vespid or anybody is being controlled, but it is very heavily implied.

Like much Tau info, it is from an Imperial source and is intended for Imperial readers.

I hate that arguement.

That doesn't make it an invalid argument.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You're basically saying "well it's written in English so it must have been by humans".

No, I'm not. You can read the same words in Japanese in the Japanese version of the codex. By your logic, all the Tau army is made by the IoM because it is described in English in the English codex.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not all the lore is ment to be from an Imperial Bias. Much of it is simply the narrator like you would find in any book.

Much of the lore is from an Imperial viewpoint.

Who is "the narrator" in this case?

A Tau? -- Why would they make such a claim?
Vespids? -- Not if they are actually being mind-controlled.
Tau allies? -- Why would they?
Tau's enemies? -- Could be.

For what it is worth, the fluff says "no evidence of this claim has been discovered".

So should we consider that all the codexes are from imperial perspective?


There has to be somethings in the codexes talking about the great deeds said race did, I doubt an enemy would describe such events.

I don't own a codex, yet, so I wouldn't know.

Perhaps an inside man put in that comment?
It just seems irritating to see everything from one person's view point, it just makes it seem very limited. That is unless we're going by the winner's rule. (History is written by the winners). which in itself could mean something

It's not from anyones viewpoint, at least not that extract. If it was from the Imperial point of view you can bet that it would be going a lot farther than just insinuating such things. All this source shows is that the narrator is reffering to existing rumours.

Xenology however, is written from an obvious imperial standpoint.

Its writen by GW to make people argue about it.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:So should we consider that all the codexes are from imperial perspective?


There has to be somethings in the codexes talking about the great deeds said race did, I doubt an enemy would describe such events.

I don't own a codex, yet, so I wouldn't know.

Perhaps an inside man put in that comment?
It just seems irritating to see everything from one person's view point, it just makes it seem very limited. That is unless we're going by the winner's rule. (History is written by the winners). which in itself could mean something

The style varies between codexes.

The Tau codex is written from several viewpoints, IoM, Tau, and unidentified narrator.

The Tyranid viewpoint is entirely written from a narrative viewpoint.




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Emperors Faithful wrote:It's not from anyones viewpoint, at least not that extract. If it was from the Imperial point of view you can bet that it would be going a lot farther than just insinuating such things. All this source shows is that the narrator is reffering to existing rumours.

Xenology however, is written from an obvious imperial standpoint.

The narrator is referring to rumours, however those rumours must have come from somewhere, so the issue is not resolved, it is deferred. It is like the theory of how life got started on Earth -- it came from spores in space. Okay, how did the life spores get started in space?

Xenology is certainly written from an Imperial viewpoint, but you have to consider it is a leaked document describing the activities of a highly dubious, possibly deranged investigator who would have got prosecuted if he had survived.

The GW attitude to fluff is that it is a mixture of rumour, history, lies, myth, propaganda and legend.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Thing is The Vespid just joined up for the cause on day 1, no questions asked, nothing wanted in return. Pretty much the perfect allies. Apparently the theory going around is The Etherals are part insectoid.

I think I've developed a theory. I think the Etherals may have inadvertently discovered a race that by happenstance is affected by their magic pixie dust.
Serendipity? Yes, but that's par for the course for The Tau.

They didn't sign up on day one. The Vespid homeworld was visited by water caste, trade was opened and the Tau helped them further develop their crystal-based technology.

My thoughts:
Since they are an insectoid race and probably have a sort of hive society, they're natural social infrastructure more closely resembles "the greater good" ideals than other alien cultures that have been contacted. If the tyranids weren't so hungry, maybe they'd sign on too.

Being an insect race they already have a predisposition toward a "hive-mind" or "greater good" ideal anyway; as long as they can communicate with the Tau i assume the Vespid would join of their own accord

Kilkrazy wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I am talking bout the mind control. there is no cannon proof for that tau, vespid or anybody is being controlled, but it is very heavily implied.

Like much Tau info, it is from an Imperial source and is intended for Imperial readers.

I hate that arguement.

That doesn't make it an invalid argument.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You're basically saying "well it's written in English so it must have been by humans".

No, I'm not. You can read the same words in Japanese in the Japanese version of the codex. By your logic, all the Tau army is made by the IoM because it is described in English in the English codex.

NO, by YOUR logic the Tau army is made by the IoM because it is described in English in the English codex. You see, I accused you of that line of thinking and then somehow you got confused and thought you said that. It's ok, it happens - except that it doesn't.


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blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:So should we consider that all the codexes are from imperial perspective?


There has to be somethings in the codexes talking about the great deeds said race did, I doubt an enemy would describe such events.

I don't own a codex, yet, so I wouldn't know.

Perhaps an inside man put in that comment?
It just seems irritating to see everything from one person's view point, it just makes it seem very limited. That is unless we're going by the winner's rule. (History is written by the winners). which in itself could mean something

Emperors Faithful wrote:It's not from anyones viewpoint, at least not that extract. If it was from the Imperial point of view you can bet that it would be going a lot farther than just insinuating such things. All this source shows is that the narrator is reffering to existing rumours.

Xenology however, is written from an obvious imperial standpoint.

Ledabot wrote:Its writen by GW to make people argue about it.

Exactly its written from The Narrators POV. It's called a Third-Person Narrative for god's sake.

Whatever the language of the book, it clearly is written from several different viewpoints, as I said earlier.

Kilkrazy wrote:Whatever the language of the book, it clearly is written from several different viewpoints, as I said earlier.

That's fine. The fiction is definately written from many points of view - including 3rd person. My point is some people disregard anything bad the Tau may have done ever because the codex is written in a human language which is ridiculous because what else could it be written in? It a lazy style of argument I can't stand. I'm not saying you do it btw but some do.

I would just say, keeping on topic, that mind control appears to be in synch with the whole Ethereals' mind control abilities in general. I noticed this change between the first and second codices that had the latter codex a bit darker and more communistic in approach.

Other sources have provided support for the mind control approach, such as 'Xenology' where an ethereal is picked apart by an inquisitor. He finds a diamond shaped organ in the ethereal's head that he finds oddly similair to 'pheremone glands used among terran invertebrates' he connects this with the tau's extremely well developed and sensitive olfactory organs in order to speculate that this is at least a form of communication if not a way that the 'ethereal asserts a measure of control over lesser castes?'

the tau is covered in pages 14-19 with the ultimate report being on pg 19

Yes, they definately control the other Tau. Question is do they laso assert some sort of insidious control over the Vespid? Are Vespid volunteers or did they get volunteered?

The Etherals had all the Tau read the Codex! Its all lies!

im just pointing out that it fits with their M.O. to exert control over less that willing subjects. What I mean by this is that the Tau never chose and still dont know as a public of the fact that ethereals do control them. Explains why O'Shovah is so pissed... and all that business with him happened right after the ethereals died.

I do have to say that I would pose another question, this one rather unbiased. What about the other subjugated races? Is there evidence that the Ethereals have used their control to subjugate the Kroot? We have the nice story of the grateful kroot, but is there anything that might suggest something like that? Or maybe even human defectors?

Ah yes, Xenology, where we have the infamous Tau with feet rather than Tau with hooves...

Some people say things like "The Tau are using he Kroot" but in fact The Kroot are using The Tau. They are volunteers and try to hid the fact that they ally with other species as well.

Ethereals definitely don't exert the same level of control over Kroot. The codex makes it clear that the Kroot are still independent minded, and will even fight as mercenaries for other factions, but of course they don't let the Ethereals know they're doing this. The way I see it is that the Kroot simply want to fight and get paid doing it. If their Tau allies don't provide them enough opportunities to do so, they'll look elsehwere.

good points on the kroot.
I retract that question...

UrbanCowboy wrote:good points on the kroot.
I retract that question...

No need to retract it as you say. I find The Kroot interesting as well. Wouldn't mind having an all Kroot army. It's like Last of the Mohicans Natives in space!

You do realise that the Ethereal control of other Tau is also simply the insinuations of a (slightly) deranged inquisitor? It wasn't even fully backed up the research.

I'm eager to see if the Kroot get fleshed out more in the next Tau codex with more units. They are pretty cool, but they're not much more than cannon fodder at present.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:You do realise that the Ethereal control of other Tau is also simply the insinuations of a (slightly) deranged inquisitor? It wasn't even fully backed up the research.

We do know that the Ethereals showed up out of nowhere and united the warring castes in virtually an instant. Now that clearly raises some suspicions.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Whatever the language of the book, it clearly is written from several different viewpoints, as I said earlier.

That's fine. The fiction is definately written from many points of view - including 3rd person. My point is some people disregard anything bad the Tau may have done ever because the codex is written in a human language which is ridiculous because what else could it be written in? It a lazy style of argument I can't stand. I'm not saying you do it btw but some do.

Some people do this, some people do that.

Why not stick to the facts?

If we're going to start judging fluff on the language it is written in, we have to disregard everything in the whole game, as none of it is in Low or High Gothic, Eldar, Orkish or any of the languages spoken in 40K.

The core point is that there isn't anything in the fluff which suggests that the Tau are not as idealistic as Tau H8ters say they aren't because they don't like the idea.

Maurin wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:You do realise that the Ethereal control of other Tau is also simply the insinuations of a (slightly) deranged inquisitor? It wasn't even fully backed up the research.

We do know that the Ethereals showed up out of nowhere and united the warring castes in virtually an instant. Now that clearly raises some suspicions.

Spreading the message of love and peace, man, the message of love and peace!

Make love not war.



Personally I believe the Ethereal's are all about the mind-controlling/brain washing/some other form of power. I struggle to see much other reason behind some of the other things they accomplish and it is suitably pessimistic for me to approve...

Maurin wrote:I'm eager to see if the Kroot get fleshed out more in the next Tau codex with more units. They are pretty cool, but they're not much more than cannon fodder at present.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:You do realise that the Ethereal control of other Tau is also simply the insinuations of a (slightly) deranged inquisitor? It wasn't even fully backed up the research.

We do know that the Ethereals showed up out of nowhere and united the warring castes in virtually an instant. Now that clearly raises some suspicions.

Exactly, The Tau were very warlike and fighting each other (like humans) until the Etherals came out of no where and united them. Since then no Tau has disagreed on anything and everything is peachy like a switch was flipped. I think its fair to say the cannon is The Etherals control the Tau.


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Kilkrazy wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Whatever the language of the book, it clearly is written from several different viewpoints, as I said earlier.

That's fine. The fiction is definately written from many points of view - including 3rd person. My point is some people disregard anything bad the Tau may have done ever because the codex is written in a human language which is ridiculous because what else could it be written in? It a lazy style of argument I can't stand. I'm not saying you do it btw but some do.

Some people do this, some people do that.

Why not stick to the facts?

If we're going to start judging fluff on the language it is written in, we have to disregard everything in the whole game, as none of it is in Low or High Gothic, Eldar, Orkish or any of the languages spoken in 40K.

The core point is that there isn't anything in the fluff which suggests that the Tau are not as idealistic as Tau H8ters say they aren't because they don't like the idea.

Like Said before there is and there isn't. GW has found a way to have their cake and eat it too.
I want to read Deathwatch though apparently its got some dirt on the Tau.

While you're reading that one, make sure to read some of the books that put the Tau in a good light.

Just for balance.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Maurin wrote:I'm eager to see if the Kroot get fleshed out more in the next Tau codex with more units. They are pretty cool, but they're not much more than cannon fodder at present.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:You do realise that the Ethereal control of other Tau is also simply the insinuations of a (slightly) deranged inquisitor? It wasn't even fully backed up the research.

We do know that the Ethereals showed up out of nowhere and united the warring castes in virtually an instant. Now that clearly raises some suspicions.

Exactly, The Tau were very warlike and fighting each other (like humans) until the Etherals came out of no where and united them. Since then no Tau has disagreed on anything and everything is peachy like a switch was flipped. I think its fair to say the cannon is The Etherals control the Tau.

Not to sound like a dick or anything, Kami, but that's a pretty arrogant claim to say that Ethereals controling the Tau is accepted as solid cannon. There is absolutely nothing that provides damning and conclusive proof, and only barely enough to justify conjecture on the issue. Which is exactly what makes it (and by extension GW ) so clever.

The information only suggests that they can. It doen't say th Tau society "needs" ethereals to mind control other Tau. If te ethereals can leave tau for prolonged periods (as they do, especiall with FW) without them all leaving, it appears the Tau are happy to support the greater good by choice. If so the ethereal being able to control has very little importance.

The Tau do have disagreements, thats why they have a council (consisting of ethereals and normal Tau), they just have a better way of sorting them out.

I have always thought the Ethereals' power is like a kind of super-charisma, which makes the other castes less quarrelsome in their presence and more likely to go along with their ideas. It is probably backed by a psi power or a pheremone which makes the Tau more suggestable.

In much the same way that the Emporer used his massive charisma and psi power to unify all of Humaniti for the Great Crusade.

Once the huge benefits of the system were demonstrated by performance, the Tau and their allies would naturally be more likely to keep sustaining it.

No matter how charismatic someone is there will alwyas be dissent. The Emperor, charimatic though he may be mostly created his empire through the barrel of a gun. Even after, obviously he had to deal with some rebellions - that Horus one for example.

Like I said before Tau used to be a lot like Humans constantly warring with each other then suddenly one day everything was fine. Nobody hurt anybody and everyone agreed on everything.

Kilkrazy wrote:In much the same way that the Emporer used his massive charisma and psi power to unify all of Humaniti for the Great Crusade.

I am sure his psi power came in handy in some of the more forceful negotiations with opposing parties, but it's unlikely he held together the crusading forces together using it.

If while dead he can broadcast a beacon across the entire galaxy, it may have been possible when he was alive.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:No matter how charismatic someone is there will alwyas be dissent. The Emperor, charimatic though he may be mostly created his empire through the barrel of a gun. Even after, obviously he had to deal with some rebellions - that Horus one for example.

Like I said before Tau used to be a lot like Humans constantly warring with each other then suddenly one day everything was fine. Nobody hurt anybody and everyone agreed on everything.

Did you see the movie "Bowling for Columbine" by Michael Moore? Remember the Canadian and US city facing each other across the lake, the Canadian one peaceful with only one murder committed some years ago by a US-American, the US-city full of crime and violence?

Massacring each other is so ... natural. So obviously the Canadians are under the pheromonic control of Premier Stephen Harper and the political ruling class

Kilkrazy wrote:If while dead he can broadcast a beacon across the entire galaxy, it may have been possible when he was alive.

The beacon is only achieved through the amplified power made possible through the throne. That and otherwise he's doing sweet FA.

If you read Fear the Alien, the story Unity talks about the kroot. The kroot don't care about the greater good and I won't say too much else as it may spoil the book. I think the Tau are the only ones who believe in it, everyone else is just in it for the money so to speak.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No matter how charismatic someone is there will alwyas be dissent. The Emperor, charimatic though he may be mostly created his empire through the barrel of a gun. Even after, obviously he had to deal with some rebellions - that Horus one for example.

Like I said before Tau used to be a lot like Humans constantly warring with each other then suddenly one day everything was fine. Nobody hurt anybody and everyone agreed on everything.

We don't know what Tau used to be like. Aside from them having a big war very little is known. Humans may have trouble following a charismatic leader but Tau could be entirely different. Lots of people try to compare them to humans, while they have similarities they also have big differences. The biggest is probably their ability to focus as race on one aim.

Did you see the movie "Bowling for Columbine" by Michael Moore? Remember the Canadian and US city facing each other across the lake, the Canadian one peaceful with only one murder committed some years ago by a US-American, the US-city full of crime and violence?

Massacring each other is so ... natural. So obviously the Canadians are under the pheromonic control of Premier Stephen Harper and the political ruling class

If Stephen Harper's B.O is mind control, I'm going to be so ticked off!

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:No matter how charismatic someone is there will alwyas be dissent. The Emperor, charimatic though he may be mostly created his empire through the barrel of a gun. Even after, obviously he had to deal with some rebellions - that Horus one for example.

Like I said before Tau used to be a lot like Humans constantly warring with each other then suddenly one day everything was fine. Nobody hurt anybody and everyone agreed on everything.

Did you see the movie "Bowling for Columbine" by Michael Moore? Remember the Canadian and US city facing each other across the lake, the Canadian one peaceful with only one murder committed some years ago by a US-American, the US-city full of crime and violence?

Massacring each other is so ... natural. So obviously the Canadians are under the pheromonic control of Premier Stephen Harper and the political ruling class

Yes, Micheal Moore loves Canada he makes it seem like a perfect Utopia in all his movies (it's not quite like that). I'm pretty sure there was more than one murder that year in Ontario.

So yes, Killing and strife are natural.


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4M2A wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
No matter how charismatic someone is there will alwyas be dissent. The Emperor, charimatic though he may be mostly created his empire through the barrel of a gun. Even after, obviously he had to deal with some rebellions - that Horus one for example.

Like I said before Tau used to be a lot like Humans constantly warring with each other then suddenly one day everything was fine. Nobody hurt anybody and everyone agreed on everything.

We don't know what Tau used to be like. Aside from them having a big war very little is known. Humans may have trouble following a charismatic leader but Tau could be entirely different. Lots of people try to compare them to humans, while they have similarities they also have big differences. The biggest is probably their ability to focus as race on one aim.

Actually a lot is known. Please read the codexes

Beyond the Tau having a widespread war at one point there isn't actually a great deal know about how Tau history settled down afterwards. I'd be willing to bet that there was unrest, even civil war, until an Ethereal showed up.

...you don't need to bet. It expressly says so.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:...you don't need to bet. It expressly says so.

I mean after the intial Ethereal interference. It doesn't expressly say that after the Ethereals appeared there was no unrest or rioting amongst the Tau. But even if there was it would certainly be unuasually rare.

yes, i think we agree then.

Actually a lot is known. Please read the codexes

Actually I have and there is very little on Tau society after the appearance of the ethereals.

At first I thought EF was talking about pre-etheral Tau now I'm thinking he intended post-etheral all along. Little confused on that one.


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Anyways an exact 50/50 split right now! Them Tau are divisive!

Has anyone ever thought that the tau are just that good at negotiating?

yup. I did. jus look at the pic in the codex with the fire warrior talking to the sm and the other guy. because nobodys fighting, they must be good. If thats what a fw can do, water chase guys must be broken good.

The pen is mightier than the sword... but the sword's for just in case.

wrong universe guys, the sword is often mightier than Bolter.

And yet a single mistroke of an adminstraive clerk's pen can deploy an entire IG regiment without any sort of ammunition. Pen wins!

unless I shoot that clerk in the head with my gun.


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Anyways, I see "The Vespid Question" as central to the Tau.

Basically, are the Tau a "The ends justify the means" race? If they are, then they are just like ever other race in 40K but with cleaner equipment.
If not, then they really have carved out their own niche. Quite an idealistic one at that.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Basically, are the Tau a "The ends justify the means" race? If they are, then they are just like ever other race in 40K but with cleaner equipment.
If not, then they really have carved out their own niche. Quite an idealistic one at that.

Well, you know the answer from another thread:

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

There's a big difference between the conceptual process and the work of fiction that ensues afterwards. If you could see the brain-storming process of nearly any Book, TV show or Movie it is quite different from the tale that is told afterwards.

True, however despite there being relatively little Tau fluff available, what there is depicts them as being altruistic, idealistic and naive, though not always adhering strictly to their own principles. In other words, much in line with the stated design aims.

The opposite view is presented in fluff written in the Imperial voice.

One can of course take both viewpoints as propaganda and assume the truth lies somewhere in between.

The IoM fluff, though, paints the Tau is being "not as good as they would like you to think" rather than outright evil, which raises questions.

Also, there is no disputing the fact that the Tau have got a lot of allies fighting for them -- Nicassar, Kroot, Tarellians, Humans, Vespids and Demiurgs -- it seems unlikely that all of these could be mind-controlled, or kept in the Federal armed forces by threat of forceful conquest. It just makes more common sense that they are genuine allies (if only of convenience).

Shakespeare knew that dramatic principles demand relief from constant tragedy and drama, so most of his historical or tragic plays include some comic relief.

The Tau perform a similar role in the 40K universe. They provide a contrast to the otherwise dismal background, thus illuminating it and making it more interesting.

Kilkrazy wrote:The IoM fluff, though, paints the Tau is being "not as good as they would like you to think" rather than outright evil, which raises questions.

You mean fluff from an Imperial point or view, or fluff that supports (in some way) the Imperial side? The first is a lot more biased and damning, yet also unreliable. The second is more removed, less biased, more reliable, but also less damning of the Tau.

Also, there is no disputing the fact that the Tau have got a lot of allies fighting for them -- Nicassar, Kroot, Tarellians, Humans, Vespids and Demiurgs -- it seems unlikely that all of these could be mind-controlled, or kept in the Federal armed forces by threat of forceful conquest. It just makes more common sense that they are genuine allies (if only of convenience).

When you annex a planet...that's not allying with them is it?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's a big difference between the conceptual process and the work of fiction that ensues afterwards. If you could see the brain-storming process of nearly any Book, TV show or Movie it is quite different from the tale that is told afterwards.

This was posted AFTER the Codex release on the GW website at the beginning of the article on what the Tau are. It was on the website until making room for the designer notes for the next edition which went into the detail changes of the Tau Empie army (Vespids, new vehicles etc).
It is not an early sketch by all means, but the general concept of that race.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The IoM fluff, though, paints the Tau is being "not as good as they would like you to think" rather than outright evil, which raises questions.

You mean fluff from an Imperial point or view, or fluff that supports (in some way) the Imperial side? The first is a lot more biased and damning, yet also unreliable. The second is more removed, less biased, more reliable, but also less damning of the Tau.

Yes. In effect there are several 'voices' in the writing.

Some of it is actual reports from IoM officials. These are clearly anti-Tau, for obvious reasons. Some of it is the supposedly authentic voice of the Tau, for example quotations in the Codex, unsurprisingly, these are 'pro-Tau'.

There is a third voice which is narrational or reported, this includes both Tau and Imperial observations. Much of this is 'pro-Tau' in the sense that it supports the view of the Tau as intended by the designers. Bits of it are anti-Tau -- the Vespid rumour is a good example -- these parts are usually low key. Bits of it are neutral.

Of course it hardly makes sense for the IoM to warn aliens that the Tau are out to enslave them, when that is a much better fate than they could expect from the ImO itself.

Also, there is no disputing the fact that the Tau have got a lot of allies fighting for them -- Nicassar, Kroot, Tarellians, Humans, Vespids and Demiurgs -- it seems unlikely that all of these could be mind-controlled, or kept in the Federal armed forces by threat of forceful conquest. It just makes more common sense that they are genuine allies (if only of convenience).

When you annex a planet...that's not allying with them is it?

Kilkrazy wrote:The Tau being expansionist, attempt to induce human planets to join them -- whether this follows a process of trade and negotiation or outright military conquest depends largely on your personal view of the Tau.

The Damocles War was instigated by the expansion of the Tau Empire. Many Imperial Worlds declared independance and were promptly either peacefully invited to join the Tau or annexed. In Cities of Death(the battle between Vostroya and Tau) that Second Phase of expansion occured when the Tau annexed several Imperial held worlds that were left undefended due to resources being thrown at the Tyranid problem. In short, they do both, and likely do it more humanely and efficiently than the Imperium ever could. Nevertheless, there IS definite evidence of subjugation which flies in the face of Kroothawks quote. Either GW has changed their mind, or they realised all along that they could have their cake (make a 'good' race) and eat it (hint that they're also evil).

Maybe a human planet within the Tau Empire is less subjugated than a human planet under Imperial rulership
Think about it!

Here is an official text about Tau/Xeno relationships from the BFG rules:

As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return.

Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.

Kilkrazy wrote:True, however despite there being relatively little Tau fluff available, what there is depicts them as being altruistic, idealistic and naive, though not always adhering strictly to their own principles. In other words, much in line with the stated design aims.

I think there's a lot of Tau background available. I think best ananlogy of how 40K fiction works is that of comic books. Like them, when new characters are invented they have to be placed into a pre-existing universe. The concept and original character may be the same at first but as years pass and different writers come the character evolves.

The opposite view is presented in fluff written in the Imperial voice.

We've gone over this before and that statement shows your bias. You immediately see something negative and say "This is negative therefore it must be Imperial POV" whereas your thought process should be "Is this Imperial POV? yes/no? then read it for what it is"

One can of course take both viewpoints as propaganda and assume the truth lies somewhere in between.

Indeed I hope it does. My point has remained that a civilization that is 100% good or evil is both unrealistic and boring

The IoM fluff, though, paints the Tau is being "not as good as they would like you to think" rather than outright evil, which raises questions.

Also, there is no disputing the fact that the Tau have got a lot of allies fighting for them -- Nicassar, Kroot, Tarellians, Humans, Vespids and Demiurgs -- it seems unlikely that all of these could be mind-controlled, or kept in the Federal armed forces by threat of forceful conquest. It just makes more common sense that they are genuine allies (if only of convenience).

There's no disputing that the Nicassar, Humans, Kroot, Demuirg are not mind controlled as evidenced by their many independant actions. The question is did The Etherals conscript The Vespid with nefarious means in a desperate attempt to find something to kill the Human's surpisingly dangerous and tough Astartes caste.
To reinterate I find the central question of the Tau is does the creedo "For The Greater Good" mean "The ends justify the means"?

Shakespeare knew that dramatic principles demand relief from constant tragedy and drama, so most of his historical or tragic plays include some comic relief.

The Tau perform a similar role in the 40K universe. They provide a contrast to the otherwise dismal background, thus illuminating it and making it more interesting.

That is debatable. There is a belief, and I don't neccessarlly subscribe to it myself, that the Tau's existence breaks the suspension of disbelief that all works of fiction require but more specifically the one that 40K requires. The is a mini-Dakka-meme that's overused a lot called GrimDark. You will see somebody ask a question like why does so-and-so do this or why is so-and-so so bad? And you will get the inevitable response "because its GrimDark" which is kinda funny but I don't really like it because it shows a clear reduction in thinking.
40K has created this interesting cycle of violence and suffering that's supposed to parable/parody our own world. Repressive organizations do bad things to people until they rebel by doing even worse things that in turn requires the establishment to crackdown and be even more repressive - and so the never-ending cycle of dystopanism grinds on. That's the very theme of 40K. If the Tau don't require this then why does anyone? It's a potential universe breaking issue. Anyways, as others would put it "Taus bad for GrimDark".

Forgive my improper quoting technique: to me HTML = warpcraft.

Nevertheless, there IS definite evidence of subjugation which flies in the face of Kroothawks quote. Either GW has changed their mind, or they realised all along that they could have their cake (make a 'good' race) and eat it (hint that they're also evil).

I don't think that the GW designers wanted to create an army that just wanted to be nice to everyone. That sort of society wouldn't last now let alone in the 40k universe. Just because a faction invades someone it doesn't make them bad. Currently there are wars happening where the attaking force is viewed as good. The Tau can't just manouver around the IoM because they will get destriyed as soon as the Tau empire gets larger.

If the IoM wanted a peaceful solution they could easily negotiate one. Entering the greater good doesn't really force them to do anything. All it means is that they become allies and trade between them is encouraged. There isn't a reason not to except that the IoM just want to kill all xenos.

Shakespeare knew that dramatic principles demand relief from constant tragedy and drama, so most of his historical or tragic plays include some comic relief.

The Tau perform a similar role in the 40K universe. They provide a contrast to the otherwise dismal background, thus illuminating it and making it more interesting.

This is something I have tried to explain in previus Tau threads but I haven't put it as well as Kilkrazy has. Having lots of evil or very dark shade of grey forces fighting means that people soon give up on the idea anything good will happen. The Tau provide the oportunity for good force to win. Having that force regularly beaten and struggling against the odds makes the setting darker than just having eternal war.

4M2A wrote:
If the IoM wanted a peaceful solution they could easily negotiate one. Entering the greater good doesn't really force them to do anything. All it means is that they become allies and trade between them is encouraged. There isn't a reason not to except that the IoM just want to kill all xenos.

Should you negotiate a peaceful solution with those who attack any planet left not-so-well-defended at all?
Actually the Tau try to benefit from the nids.
It will turn out bad for them. Simply no one likes backstabbers. When xenophobic Imperials participate in coalitions against the nids, Tau do not.
So Why ally with them? To save them, again?

Entering the greater good does force to pay a tithe. Entering the greater good does force to obey to the etherals.
And the IoM will not pay tribute nor will they swap their Emperor for some 'artificially created leaders' who no one knows who the entity behind them is.

The reason to kill all xenos is the experience at the age of strife. Plus the fact you can't live in peace with orks or nids. Maybe you're able to let the necrons sleep
and humbly accept the Eldars imagined superiority and do as they say. Then you just need to be wary of the dark Eldar.
Obviously the threat of chaos is a greater risk to humans and therefore a race-specific problem.

Maybe someday one of you americans can enlighten me why: one as big as the USA should join one as small as Swiss?

I think the better comparison would be to equate the IoM with Britain and the Tau with the fledgling United States, one is up-and-coming, while the other is in it's decline

OK, british empire and newlyfounded US.

How about a reasoning why the british empire should have joined the US at this point?





EDit: sorry fox gone mad.

Should you negotiate a peaceful solution with those who attack any planet left not-so-well-defended at all?

Wait what? What was the imperiums response when they first met the Tau (at this point the Tau race was just starting to form)? Oh IIRC they decided to exterminate them all.

Entering the greater good does force to pay a tithe. Entering the greater good does force to obey to the etherals.
And the IoM will not pay tribute nor will they swap their Emperor for some 'artificially created leaders' who no one knows who the entity behind them is.

No and No

Other races ares still entirely seperate. The Kroot are completely independant to the Tau society. They have their own planets and society. The Ethereals have no control over the kroot. The Tau themselves don't worship or pay tribute to ethereals so I don't think they would want anyone else to do that either. Ethereals are there to oversee the Tau empire they aren't worshiped. Tau will die for them, but only because they fear what will happen if the ethereals die out. You may expect humans to trick and manipulte you but Tau have a drastically different society to humans. Altruism and sacrifing yourself to improve others is a pretty big thing for them.

The reason to kill all xenos is the experience at the age of strife.

The Tau didn't exist at this point. Some xenos may be dangerous- doesn't mean they all are.

Plus the fact you can't live in peace with orks or nids

.
Something the Tau know, hence why they have a policy of destroying all orks they find. This doesn't really affect how the IoM could treat the Tau.

Maybe you're able to let the necrons sleep and humbly accept the Eldars imagined superiority and do as they say. Then you just need to be wary of the dark Eldar.

Not sure what this has to do with Tau.

Obviously the threat of chaos is a greater risk to humans and therefore a race-specific problem.

The Tau's beliefs are very similar to the imperial truth. Remove religion and superstition and replace it with understanding and reason. Judging by the big 4's reaction to the emperor you could assume this would have some serious bad effects on chaos.

Maybe someday one of you americans can enlighten me why: one as big as the USA should join one as small as Swiss?

The UK is a small country. This doesn't mean some of the larger dictatorship run countries couldn't learn something from us.

1hadhq wrote:

4M2A wrote:
If the IoM wanted a peaceful solution they could easily negotiate one. Entering the greater good doesn't really force them to do anything. All it means is that they become allies and trade between them is encouraged. There isn't a reason not to except that the IoM just want to kill all xenos.

Should you negotiate a peaceful solution with those who attack any planet left not-so-well-defended at all?
Actually the Tau try to benefit from the nids.
It will turn out bad for them. Simply no one likes backstabbers. When xenophobic Imperials participate in coalitions against the nids, Tau do not.
So Why ally with them? To save them, again?

Entering the greater good does force to pay a tithe. Entering the greater good does force to obey to the etherals.
And the IoM will not pay tribute nor will they swap their Emperor for some 'artificially created leaders' who no one knows who the entity behind them is.

The reason to kill all xenos is the experience at the age of strife. Plus the fact you can't live in peace with orks or nids. Maybe you're able to let the necrons sleep
and humbly accept the Eldars imagined superiority and do as they say. Then you just need to be wary of the dark Eldar.
Obviously the threat of chaos is a greater risk to humans and therefore a race-specific problem.

Maybe someday one of you americans can enlighten me why: one as big as the USA should join one as small as Swiss?

I wasn't going to respond to that because it was so ridiculus. It's like saying "Iceland has lower polution, better literacy rates and quality of life than the US so why doesn't the USA just join Iceland?" Except take that scenario and times its impracticalibily by 1 million. So x 1,000,000

Retribution wrote:I think the better comparison would be to equate the IoM with Britain and the Tau with the fledgling United States, one is up-and-coming, while the other is in it's decline

So...the Imperium rules the better part of the know galaxy (world) with a mighty fleet, but mostly through the underated power of trade. And Tau still practice slavery and extermination of lesser races. It all makes sense!

4M2A wrote:
What was the imperiums response when they first met the Tau (at this point the Tau race was just starting to form)? Oh IIRC they decided to exterminate them all.

It wasn't a Tau-specific action. A standard cleansing procedure , yes.
There is a difference how they treat what surveyors find, and the Tau were just primitives then. But still got some help ( warpstorms ) didn't they?

4M2A wrote:
No and No

Other races ares still entirely seperate. The Kroot are completely independant to the Tau society. They have their own planets and society. The Ethereals have no control over the kroot. The Tau themselves don't worship or pay tribute to ethereals so I don't think they would want anyone else to do that either. Ethereals are there to oversee the Tau empire they aren't worshiped. Tau will die for them, but only because they fear what will happen if the ethereals die out.

Youre telling me the tithe in codex tau-empires is a lie?
'Do these kroot not pay in soldiers? Is it no longer mandatory to contribute someting?
I don't see the population of a planet burdened by 2 tithes and not revolting.

If the etherals have no control over the allies of the empire, who has then?
The fire caste?

4M2A wrote:The Tau didn't exist at this point. Some xenos may be dangerous- doesn't mean they all are.

.

Humans did not start as xenophobic, as you could see in the HH series. But the lesson of the age of strife was learned well and I guess it will not go away
when multiple xenos try to ruin your home because they : want to eat you, want to kill you for fun, want to harvest you for their gods, want to torture you, ...
you know, most active major factions of non-humans are not possible friends.

4M2A wrote:Something the Tau know, hence why they have a policy of destroying all orks they find. This doesn't really affect how the IoM could treat the Tau.

Where both may agree upon orks, Tau seem to ignore the threat level of nids.
The IoM treats the Tau as major annoyance when fighting nids as Tau tend to attack imperial worlds instead of joining against nids. Thus Tau are siding with the hive mind ( unwillingly maybe ). Tau had necrons, IoM and DE intercept nids so when will they start to accept the fight against nids sould have priority?

4M2A wrote:The Tau's beliefs are very similar to the imperial truth. Remove religion and superstition and replace it with understanding and reason. Judging by the big 4's reaction to the emperor you could assume this would have some serious bad effects on chaos

Chaos feared the Emperor. They do not fear reason ( since chaos twists any logic ) and not understanding ( since chaos tells so many lies to drown the truth ).

4M2A wrote:
The UK is a small country. This doesn't mean some of the larger dictatorship run countries couldn't learn something from us.

Maybe the wording "british empire" should hint at the past? the time when the US was just some colonies leaving said empire?
It was aimed at the idea of a large state spread across the known "world" ( earth / 40k verse ) to join a small state on the edge of the known "world" ( earth / galactic east ). I am still interested why the IoM should consider to join a small empire in the path of the nid fleets?

The chances of an alliance are nil as the only one to decide such issue sits at Terra and may not grant an audience to the Tau....


@EF: correct as usual.

I would say Humans did start off as Xenophobic even in HH The Emperor promotes a strict kill-all-Aliens culture.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I would say Humans did start off as Xenophobic even in HH The Emperor promotes a strict kill-all-Aliens culture.

Dark Age of Technology describes trade and co-existence on a wide scale. Humanity was very similar to (even if not more advanced than) the Tau in this period. During that Age of Strife alien races quickly took advantage of the weakened and seperated human worlds/colonies. Most were either enslaved or largely exterminated.
An example would be the US being hit by several nuclear bombs, wiping out the better part of their major cities. Instead of helping them as required NATO(representing allied Alien races) invade and subjugate most of the weakened nation. Humanity, the Emperor included, has figured since then that the only people who will look out for them is going to be other humans (and even then it's meh). It doesn't take much to push that train of thought into outright Xenophobia.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I would say Humans did start off as Xenophobic even in HH The Emperor promotes a strict kill-all-Aliens culture.

Dark Age of Technology describes trade and co-existence on a wide scale. Humanity was very similar to (even if not more advanced than) the Tau in this period. During that Age of Strife alien races quickly took advantage of the weakened and seperated human worlds/colonies. Most were either enslaved or largely exterminated.
An example would be the US being hit by several nuclear bombs, wiping out the better part of their major cities. Instead of helping them as required NATO(representing allied Alien races) invade and subjugate most of the weakened nation. Humanity, the Emperor included, has figured since then that the only people who will look out for them is going to be other humans (and even then it's meh). It doesn't take much to push that train of thought into outright Xenophobia.

Yes, I agree. That's when Humanity was young and pie-eyed like the Tau are now. Can't help but feel something similiar is coming down the pipe for the Tau.

It wasn't a Tau-specific action. A standard cleansing procedure , yes.
There is a difference how they treat what surveyors find, and the Tau were just primitives then. But still got some help ( warpstorms ) didn't they?

So what if it's standard, it's the Tau's standard procedure to bring worlds into the greater good. Whether its targeted or a general response killing other races because they could be a threat is not good. Not sure what you mean about warpstorms.

Youre telling me the tithe in codex tau-empires is a lie?
'Do these kroot not pay in soldiers? Is it no longer mandatory to contribute someting?
I don't see the population of a planet burdened by 2 tithes and not revolting.

Each race contributes something in exchange for recieveing any thing that the greater good has. It's basically the same process that the IoM already uses. You give soldiers, you get advances in technology, protection and goods. The book is called Tau empire because it's got Tau units in it. Apart from a few kroot units everything is tau. If there were demiurg, kroot, nicassar it would be called codex greater good.

If the etherals have no control over the allies of the empire, who has then?
The fire caste?

No Tau do. They are allies not slaves. They are ruled by their own people and their cutlture is not combined with the Tau.

Humans did not start as xenophobic, as you could see in the HH series. But the lesson of the age of strife was learned well and I guess it will not go away
when multiple xenos try to ruin your home because they : want to eat you, want to kill you for fun, want to harvest you for their gods, want to torture you, ...
you know, most active major factions of non-humans are not possible friends.

If this was applied to human countries now it wouldn't be considered right. The Tau hadn't done anything with the intention of harming the IoM until they got attacked. Having a policy to destroy all members of a single races isn't good but is understandable. The Tau havde shown they aren't like the other races but the IoM is so obsessed with xenophobia that it won't stop. They use the fear of aliens to control people. If people realised that they weren't going to be destropyed by every xenos they wouln't rely on the imperium as much.

Where both may agree upon orks, Tau seem to ignore the threat level of nids.
The IoM treats the Tau as major annoyance when fighting nids as Tau tend to attack imperial worlds instead of joining against nids. Thus Tau are siding with the hive mind ( unwillingly maybe ). Tau had necrons, IoM and DE intercept nids so when will they start to accept the fight against nids sould have priority?

The Tau have had many battles with the nids. Not as many as the IoM but that is more due to size. Why would the Tau help the IoM fight the nids. The IoM expect help from a race they hate and regularly try to destroy.

Chaos feared the Emperor. They do not fear reason ( since chaos twists any logic ) and not understanding ( since chaos tells so many lies to drown the truth ).

Chaos feared the emperor because of his plan. What could the emperor himself do to hurt them. By estabilishing a empire set on reason and logic he could stop many people falling to chaos. Some still would but not as many.

Maybe the wording "british empire" should hint at the past? the time when the US was just some colonies leaving said empire?
It was aimed at the idea of a large state spread across the known "world" ( earth / 40k verse ) to join a small state on the edge of the known "world" ( earth / galactic east ). I am still interested why the IoM should consider to join a small empire in the path of the nid fleets?

I uderstand the example, I was giving another. Size doesn't matter because they don't join them physically. By Joining the Tau they could improve weapons (IG armed with Pulse weapons would be able to wipe out most threats), they would have support against the races that want to destroy everything, and they have less people to fight against.

Lets clear up something about the Damocles Gulf Crusade in which the Imperium is often portrayed as the bad guy. The Tau water caste sowed discontent upon a score of worlds causing them to defect from The IoM. Fun Tau Fact of the day: The Water Caste is the most succesful caste in history at conquering human worlds.
The Crusade was a military response to that meddling. So although those worlds left of their own volition which means the Tau are within their rights to annex them, the Imperium is also fully within its rights to reclaim its dissident territories just like that country to the south of me (US of something) and many before it like yours. There's no bad guy in that one just two competing interests.

The IoM actually joining into the Tau empire is ridiculous, the real point, however, is that in the foreseeable future...the IoM will not be the galaxy spanning power-house.

The planets tau find are backwaters with few ties to the imperium. Tau are closer to home and open to trade their technology, so joining makes much more sense to these individual worlds.

4M2A wrote:
So what if it's standard, it's the Tau's standard procedure to bring worlds into the greater good. Whether its targeted or a general response killing other races because they could be a threat is not good. Not sure what you mean about warpstorms.

Nobody claims it a good thing to exterminate, it is too often neccessary in 40k as this is a "eternal war" setting.
The search and mark for clenasing procedure is also mentioned in the Tau fluff, not general IoM fluff, thus it was made for the background story of the Tau's
survival as a primitive culture before they had some help from a unknown source which hid the Tau in a warpstorm.
As Tau are not a psychic race, I think this warpstorm could be artificial.

4M2A wrote:Each race contributes something in exchange for recieveing any thing that the greater good has. It's basically the same process that the IoM already uses. You give soldiers, you get advances in technology, protection and goods. The book is called Tau empire because it's got Tau units in it. Apart from a few kroot units everything is tau. If there were demiurg, kroot, nicassar it would be called codex greater good.


They are allies not slaves. They are ruled by their own people and their culture is not combined with the Tau.

Isn't it a Empire codex since Kroot are part of the Empire?
You know, the organization of the greater good isn't called "greater good inc" or "greater good alliance". Thought it was obvious the whole group of
followers of the greater good is part of the empire since they ask to JOIN. When Tau were nearly alone in their codex, it was called differently than "empire"

To compare the tithe the IoM collects and the tithe the Tau Empire collects could lead to a question of hierarchy in the respective organizations.
The IoM consists of multiple smaller units, and as a rule of thumb the tithe is the contribution to the whole Imperium and all its facets but the locals still have to
pay local taxes and got local dutys.
So these allies contribute to the Empire and still support their own leaders.
The IoM has local/regional leaders, but can handle things also directly ordered by the Emperor/High Lords.
So why do you claim the Tau empire has no control? I would not assume they care for everything ( like the EU ), but at least set a general course.

4M2A wrote:
If this was applied to human countries now it wouldn't be considered right. The Tau hadn't done anything with the intention of harming the IoM until they got attacked. Having a policy to destroy all members of a single races isn't good but is understandable. The Tau have shown they aren't like the other races but the IoM is so obsessed with xenophobia that it won't stop. They use the fear of aliens to control people. If people realised that they weren't going to be destroyed by every xenos they wouldn't rely on the imperium as much.

yes the IoM has a reputation they never give up. So prepare to be drowned in guardsmen....

The issue I think is there:
- the Tau could be forgotten and live on without the IoM caring, but they like to remind the IoM they are still there and therefore someone somehow cares
and the conflict goes on. Remember the Administratum is able to loose more data daily than a minor race could produce in its whole history.

Your point of people relying on the IoM because they fear the alien is partially true.
Some xenos ( nids, orks, ...) should be feared. But there is the threat of the ruinous powers too. Its unimportant to Tau, maybe, but humans and their
noticable amount of psykers have to rely on the emperor to keep chaos at bay. Never forget Tau have a comfortable situation of just one enemy showing up
at once. The IoM has to deal with all possible threats each day.

4M2A wrote:
The Tau have had many battles with the nids. Not as many as the IoM but that is more due to size. Why would the Tau help the IoM fight the nids. The IoM expect help from a race they hate and regularly try to destroy.

The Tau should learn to support without any chance to sway the supported to their ways.
The IoM does not need the Tau, but Tau need the other major factions. Because, nids were proven to suffer against certain combos and Tau can't form one of them alone. So either temporarly cooperate or be nid food. The IoM already found other races to support anti-nid campaigns ( codex nids ).

4M2A wrote:
Chaos feared the emperor because of his plan. What could the emperor himself do to hurt them. By estabilishing a empire set on reason and logic he could stop many people falling to chaos. Some still would but not as many.

The Emperor? He got them to retreat instead of facing off in a direct one on four battle. Since the chaos "gods" need to flee to survive, I will assume the
Emperor would have seriously hurt them.

4M2A wrote:
I understand the example, I was giving another. Size doesn't matter because they don't join them physically. By Joining the Tau they could improve weapons (IG armed with Pulse weapons would be able to wipe out most threats), they would have support against the races that want to destroy everything, and they have less people to fight against.

So why did you give another? Disliked the given one?

I doubt Tau would improve the imperial weapons. The IoM had a different approach on tech and despises AI's.
IoM relys upon laser and artillery, there is no interest from Tau in such things.
The IoM is able to supply galaxy wide wars, and campaigns can go on for centurys. The support the Tau could give would not have any impact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Retribution wrote:The IoM actually joining into the Tau empire is ridiculous, the real point, however, is that in the foreseeable future...the IoM will not be the galaxy spanning power-house.

How so?

GW painted themselves into a corner with "end times".
Because "end times" = end of mankind.
So we got this stasis field containing M41...

Mr Nobody wrote:The planets tau find are backwaters with few ties to the imperium. Tau are closer to home and open to trade their technology, so joining makes much more sense to these individual worlds.

Perhaps, butI think you'll find it makes less sense to the Imperium of Man.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:The planets tau find are backwaters with few ties to the imperium. Tau are closer to home and open to trade their technology, so joining makes much more sense to these individual worlds.

Perhaps, butI think you'll find it makes less sense to the Imperium of Man.

+1 and why would human want to allie with cattle, when we they can just BBQ them, like the IoM was planning to do.

The thread is now completely off topic, so I'll lock it.