I'm not sure if this thread is too stupid to exist, but I really enjoyed the sillyness that occured in another thread in YMDC where people started acting as if fluff was rules. What would happen if fluff was rules? I'm sure there are many examples of stupidity to be found here. I can provide a few Ork ones.

The deffguns that lootas have says that they "spell a violent death to anyone in its crosshairs". So I roll to hit and if it's a hit, whatever I'm shooting at dies.

Warbosses have this line in their fluff: "When the battle is raging, these monstrous and all-powerful Orks give full rein to their battlelust, charging into the ranks of the enemy and slaughtering everything in their path." So any model that comes in base contact with the Warboss is instantly killed.

Again, sorry if this is too stupid to exist.

All armies would become ridiculous.
IG would be fun.
Tyranids would be fun.
Actually a lot of armies would be fun since the other army has ridiculous rules as well.
Marines would be interesting. Land Raiders would be untouchabe.
Apocalypse... not even worth playing if fluff was rules.

purplefood wrote:All armies would become ridiculous.
IG would be fun.
Tyranids would be fun.
Actually a lot of armies would be fun since the other army has ridiculous rules as well.
Marines would be interesting. Land Raiders would be untouchabe.
Apocalypse... not even worth playing if fluff was rules.

I realize that =) Maybe I was unclear but I was more looking for particular examples ^^

Pariah's would be good

Calgar can just go around punching avatars in the face

and if you have Dante you could take necrons as allies

Necrons would be used for target practice...

Like from codex fluff?
If so sorry for my first post and i'll grab something to put in this thread.

If such were to happen youd have a cap on so many space marine armies.

Play Eldrad, Blackstone Fortress immediately descends and eats him.

Play Farseer, enemy turn to clay.

Orks would be closer to BS1.

Guardsmen would do more damage, but die (even) faster.

Commissars would have 2+ invulnerable saves.

Explosions either from ordnance or exploding vehichles would hurt more.

Doom of Malan'tai would be unstoppable

Gibbsey wrote:Doom of Malan'tai would be unstoppable

As would just about any Special Character...

Footsloggin wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:Doom of Malan'tai would be unstoppable

As would just about any Special Character...

i was going by since Doom gains the power of anything it kills and since its already single handidly wiped out an eldar craftworld (called Malan'tai i beleive), you have an incredibly powerful psyker running around getting stronger every day

Gibbsey wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:Doom of Malan'tai would be unstoppable

As would just about any Special Character...

i was going by since Doom gains the power of anything it kills and since its already single handidly wiped out an eldar craftworld (called Malan'tai i beleive), you have an incredibly powerful psyker running around getting stronger every day

True, true, the only reason it did get stronger however, was the fact that it slipped past all eldar forces, gaining access. To their life force area??? I don't quite know, but it then used the power it gained to wreck all of the craftworld, leaving a hollow shell. It, never to be seen... SPOOOKY!!!

Footsloggin wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:Doom of Malan'tai would be unstoppable

As would just about any Special Character...

i was going by since Doom gains the power of anything it kills and since its already single handidly wiped out an eldar craftworld (called Malan'tai i beleive), you have an incredibly powerful psyker running around getting stronger every day

True, true, the only reason it did get stronger however, was the fact that it slipped past all eldar forces, gaining access. To their life force area??? I don't quite know, but it then used the power it gained to wreck all of the craftworld, leaving a hollow shell. It, never to be seen... SPOOOKY!!!

lol i guess after eating an entire eldar infiinity circuit it just wants to chillax, screw the hive mind

(it gets stronger with each soul it consumes, getting to the infinity circuit allowed it to consume every soul there)

Gibbsey wrote:
Calgar can just go around punching avatars in the face

That happens with actual rules.

Eldar 1: Y'know, seeing that the infinity circuit is so important, housing our souls and whatnot, don't you think we should put a...I don't know, some sort of guard over it?

Eldar 2: Meh, seeing as whatever threatens the infinity circuit needs to get through half the Craftworld first I don't think it's really a problem.

Eldar 1: What if a single, untracable mycetic spore housing the Doom of Us All with enournmous growing psychic power somehow manages to sneak in there?

Eldar 2: ...that's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Eldar 1: All I'm saying is we should at least put some kind of saftey strap or child lock over the damn thing.

Eldar 2: We'll look into it...

Emperors Faithful wrote:Eldar 1: Y'know, seeing that the infinity circuit is so important, housing our souls and whatnot, don't you think we should put a...I don't know, some sort of guard over it?

Eldar 2: Meh, seeing as whatever threatens the infinity circuit needs to get through half the Craftworld first I don't think it's really a problem.

Eldar 1: What if a single, untracable mycetic spore housing the Doom of Us All with enournmous growing psychic power somehow manages to sneak in there?

Eldar 2: ...that's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Eldar 1: All I'm saying is we should at least put some kind of saftey strap or child lock over the damn thing.

Eldar 2: We'll look into it...

Hmmmmm those Eldar are no way near arrogant enough

No one would ever play a game of 40k

Space marines always win, so everyone would collect space marines. Space marines never fight each other, so no one would be able to play a game with their space marines.

The only games would be between a space marine player and someone else who is thinking to themself "how can I spectacularly lose today?"

Gibbsey wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Eldar 1: Y'know, seeing that the infinity circuit is so important, housing our souls and whatnot, don't you think we should put a...I don't know, some sort of guard over it?

Eldar 2: Meh, seeing as whatever threatens the infinity circuit needs to get through half the Craftworld first I don't think it's really a problem.

Eldar 1: What if a single, untracable mycetic spore housing the Doom of Us All with enournmous growing psychic power somehow manages to sneak in there?

Eldar 2: ...that's the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

Eldar 1: All I'm saying is we should at least put some kind of saftey strap or child lock over the damn thing.

Eldar 2: We'll look into it...

Hmmmmm those Eldar are no way near arrogant enough

Ye Gods! These critics!

D-Cannons would one hit entire squads
Farseers would brings moons smashing into planets
Death Jesters would one hit mostly everything

Hive tyrants w/ Guard would be the only thing on the table required. one genestealer would kill a squad of terminators.

Ailaros wrote:No one would ever play a game of 40k

Space marines always win, so everyone would collect space marines. Space marines never fight each other, so no one would be able to play a game with their space marines.

The only games would be between a space marine player and someone else who is thinking to themself "how can I spectacularly lose today?"

Well...Orks never lose

"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!"

Avatars would always die.
Marines would go around walking into artillery fire for fun
You'd make your warboss as big as possible and he'd insta kill everything
Dark Eldar wouldn't be allowed in apoc games because they're strictly raiders
Kharn would be even more insane.

Victimized Tyrant wrote:Hive tyrants w/ Guard would be the only thing on the table required. one genestealer would kill a squad of terminators.

It says fluff not just over powered stuff.
Genestealers, although 1 had never taken down an entire squad of terminators, have an alarming propensity for killing them

Dark Eldar would always, always beat you because they can destroy your defenses from a mile away.
Wyches can carve through whole squads of Spess Merhrens.
Calgar, Abaddon, and generally all Monstrous Creatures are nearly invincible.

Ixias wrote:"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count.

Actaully, they still lose, it just doesn't count.

They still lose though, regardless of how they choose to view it.

Otherwise a space marine player and an ork player would sit down at a table and the entire world would get instantly sucked into a black hole shortly before the whole universe disappeared in a puff of logic.

JazzyJ wrote:Avatars would always die.
Marines would go around walking into artillery fire for fun
You'd make your warboss as big as possible and he'd insta kill everything
Dark Eldar wouldn't be allowed in apoc games because they're strictly raiders
Kharn would be even more insane.

Kharn would kill everything on both sides. Then he'd kill you and your opponent then everyone you know.

purplefood wrote:Kharn would kill everything on both sides. Then he'd kill you and your opponent then everyone you know.

heh, yeah. You'd put the model down on the table and the evening news would show the gory scene of thousands of people getting slaughtered by a tiny pewter miniature on the rampage. It would only finally be brought down when someone arrived with a tiny pewter miniature of Marenus Calgar.

... more on how this effects your weekend at 7.

IG artillery companies... no point fighting.
Also GK armies would be insane and also almost any army could just call down constant orbital barrages.

purplefood wrote:IG artillery companies... no point fighting.

space marines are actually immune to artillery, though.

Orbital bombardment anyone?

Tau rail guns actully woyuld cause the air to catch fire causing everything to BURN!!!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.
All that breaths, dies.

There was a "Movie marine" army list in a WD WAAAAAY back where the Marines were made to their fluff specifications. Basically every bolter turned into an assault cannon, every marine was a daemon prince, and every Chainsword was akin to a lightning claw.

The game wouldn't exist. What fluff do you go by? In the Tau codex, the Tau are kicking rear. In the Marines codex, the marines are kicking rear. In the DE codex, DE are kicking rear. Each codex / book glorifies who it is written about. Thus you would have no actual base to go off of.

At least thats how I see it.

Ailaros wrote:

purplefood wrote:Kharn would kill everything on both sides. Then he'd kill you and your opponent then everyone you know.

heh, yeah. You'd put the model down on the table and the evening news would show the gory scene of thousands of people getting slaughtered by a tiny pewter miniature on the rampage. It would only finally be brought down when someone arrived with a tiny pewter miniature of Marenus Calgar.

... more on how this effects your weekend at 7.

This had made my day.I can see it now little Kharn trying to pile peoples heads up.
Anchorman"THE HORROR THE HORROR"

Rubric Marines would be immune to half the weapons in the game since their fluff dictates "their entire power armour tomb must be obliterated to stop the soul within".

Guardsmen, gants, orks, and gaunts would be .00000000001 points each

Shas'O Dorian wrote:The game wouldn't exist. What fluff do you go by? In the Tau codex, the Tau are kicking rear. In the Marines codex, the marines are kicking rear. In the DE codex, DE are kicking rear. Each codex / book glorifies who it is written about. Thus you would have no actual base to go off of.

At least thats how I see it.

I got the feeling in the Tau codex that they were actually dangerous in close combat, having evolved from warriors who hunt on the range with primitive tools (at least the Fire Warriors). That flew out the window when even conscripted guard are more competent.

The only overall difference i can see is games below say 10000pts would be to quick and pointless. Woop!

Space Marines, ever vigilant.
Tau, too busy building washing machines.
Eldar, too busy doing karate.
Dark Eldar, too busy looking in a mirror.
Chaos Space Marines, too busy hating soup.
Necrons, too busy sleeping.
Imperial Guard, too busy complaining.
Orks, too busy punchin'.
Tyranids, too busy munchin'.
Chaos demons, too busy cursing.

So as you can see from the above scientific table, only the space marines truly give a sh**t.

What if fluff was rules?

The world would be a better place.

Fluff and power should be congruous. The more fluffy your army is, the more powerful your army should become.

Sadly this has never been reflected in the rules except for a very small amount of times.

Depends what type of fluff. Realistic fluff would probably shift the game into a more “herohammer” ish direction. Characters/Land Raider equivalents/TH/SS equivalents would become indestructible and people would generally be trying to squeeze as much of these units as possible. Players of the more exotic armies (such as traitor guard and Sisters) would probably have access to more balanced army lists. Abaddon’s fluff as rules would be hilarious (probably something along the lines of fielding an indestructible terminator wing list and being able to field a Black Crusade in Apoc games).

Now if all the zany fluff became rules, all loyalist codices would be twice as powerful as any xenos/chaos codex. Any Space Marine character/unit could be used in an Ultra Marine list (as all Space Marines secretly want to become Ultra Marines apaprently). And lastly, knowing Matt Ward, Mephiston would probably retain the IC rule and his attacks would probably be resolved at Str D.

If fluff were rules, you'd need a couple more tables just to field your 'Nid army.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:If fluff were rules, you'd need a couple more tables just to field your 'Nid army.

Right, but only if we have access to a IG Artillery Regiment. Should soften you up to single table size quickly enough.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Tzeentchling9 wrote:If fluff were rules, you'd need a couple more tables just to field your 'Nid army.

Right, but only if we have access to a IG Artillery Regiment. Should soften you up to single table size quickly enough.

Until you ran out of ammo and/or dropped dead from the spores in the air. Then the re-grown 'Nid army would nearly overwhelm you and the Spess Marines would show up at the last minute to save you.

Ixias wrote:The deffguns that lootas have says that they "spell a violent death to anyone in its crosshairs".

Strictly fluff RAW here, but this would have no effect unless your enemies were having problems spelling the word "death."

Orks would be even more crazy and fun to play

I could see the C'tan munching on a few planets at time...

Maugan Ra would eat chaos for breakfast. And Yriel would do the same to tyranids.

Mattieau wrote:Maugan Ra would eat chaos for breakfast. And Yriel would do the same to tyranids.

All Eldar would need are the Pheonix(Sp?) lords.
Pbviously Mr. Ra would take all the Tyranids.

The game would be nigh on unplayable as there is so much fluff out there, lots with contradicting pieces.

I would really like it if GW kept to a continuous arc of fluff and the game based on that.

The model who last killed lucius is removed and replaced by lucius (on one wound).

And the next person to use a board after an ork player was on it would have a load of orks scatered around from the spores left over.

thats the same as in 3rd isent it?

whocares wrote:

Ixias wrote:The deffguns that lootas have says that they "spell a violent death to anyone in its crosshairs".

Strictly fluff RAW here, but this would have no effect unless your enemies were having problems spelling the word "death."

We're going to have a RAW vs RAI argument here arnt we......

Fluff RAI?

Ailaros wrote:Fluff RAI?

Well "Spell a violent death" means that the person will die violently.
But if the words are taken as their literal meaning then it means anyone caught in the crosshairs of the gun will have to spell "A violent death" or spell "Death" very violently.
However this is clearly not was intended so they just die instead.
In summary go figure...

purplefood wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Fluff RAI?

Well "Spell a violent death" means that the person will die violently.
But if the words are taken as their literal meaning then it means anyone caught in the crosshairs of the gun will have to spell "A violent death" or spell "Death" very violently.
However this is clearly not was intended so they just die instead.
In summary go figure...

Nah its obviously spelling "a violent", and the request is directed at Death

and since its only people "in its crosshairs" the whole point is moot, noone is "inside" crosshairs theire infront of or behind them!

Silly GW and thair unclear fluff

SM will destoy anything. raven guard would be practically invisible. (for those of you who have read chapter's due- that.) (for those of you who have listened to raven's flight- every raven guard is now nearly as good as corax) bye iron warriors.

Gibbsey wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Fluff RAI?

Well "Spell a violent death" means that the person will die violently.
But if the words are taken as their literal meaning then it means anyone caught in the crosshairs of the gun will have to spell "A violent death" or spell "Death" very violently.
However this is clearly not was intended so they just die instead.
In summary go figure...

Nah its obviously spelling "a violent", and the request is directed at Death

and since its only people "in its crosshairs" the whole point is moot, noone is "inside" crosshairs theire infront of or behind them!

Silly GW and thair unclear fluff

I think you have me there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shrike wrote:SM will destoy anything. raven guard would be practically invisible. (for those of you who have read chapter's due- that.) (for those of you who have listened to raven's flight- every raven guard is now nearly as good as corax) bye iron warriors.

I love the RG in that.
Also everyone will be an Alpha Legionnaire in disguise.

I think i just created fluff lawyering

Gibbsey wrote:I think i just created fluff lawyering

You did. 40k background will now become 'You make da call: fluff'

Mattieau wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:I think i just created fluff lawyering

You did. 40k background will now become 'You make da call: fluff'

We need a Gwar! mkII

Imagine...Grey Knights would be good at killing demons!

Zonder wrote:Imagine...Grey Knights would be good at killing demons!

They are anyway.
It's all the normal people they fail against right now.

yep. Lucky we're getting a new codex soon.

Still think a combined Inq. codex would be better.

purplefood wrote:Still think a combined Inq. codex would be better.

Stern's strength goes to 11

purplefood wrote:Still think a combined Inq. codex would be better.

You just summoned a greater Melissa!

Klawz wrote:

purplefood wrote:Still think a combined Inq. codex would be better.

You just summoned a greater Melissa!

Obv. it would have to include SoB otherwise she would kill everyone.

purplefood wrote:

Klawz wrote:

purplefood wrote:Still think a combined Inq. codex would be better.

You just summoned a greater Melissa!

Obv. it would have to include SoB otherwise she would kill everyone.

Nonononnonono.
YOU HAVE SUMMONED ANOTHER GREATER MELISSA!!!!
Emperor save us all.

Klawz wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Klawz wrote:

purplefood wrote:Still think a combined Inq. codex would be better.

You just summoned a greater Melissa!

Obv. it would have to include SoB otherwise she would kill everyone.

Nonononnonono.
YOU HAVE SUMMONED ANOTHER GREATER MELISSA!!!!
Emperor save us all.

She is a scary person...

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:There was a "Movie marine" army list in a WD WAAAAAY back where the Marines were made to their fluff specifications. Basically every bolter turned into an assault cannon, every marine was a daemon prince, and every Chainsword was akin to a lightning claw.

I'd like to see that list!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyways power armour would have a 2+ save.
TDA would have a 1+ save!

Oh my god, fluff raw vs. rai XD I never thought I'd live to see the day. We will have arguments about what they mean with the fluff "If you read it literally it says this" "Yes but that is obviously not what was intended" "Still, that's what it says so that's what is true." "OMG FRICKIN...FAAC"? (Fluff at all costs?)

Ixias wrote:Oh my god, fluff raw vs. rai XD I never thought I'd live to see the day. We will have arguments about what they mean with the fluff "If you read it literally it says this" "Yes but that is obviously not what was intended" "Still, that's what it says so that's what is true." "OMG FRICKIN...FAAC"? (Fluff at all costs?)

Gentlemen we have created a monster.

purplefood wrote:

Ixias wrote:Oh my god, fluff raw vs. rai XD I never thought I'd live to see the day. We will have arguments about what they mean with the fluff "If you read it literally it says this" "Yes but that is obviously not what was intended" "Still, that's what it says so that's what is true." "OMG FRICKIN...FAAC"? (Fluff at all costs?)

Gentlemen we have created a monster.

I've created a monster

And remember GW clarification does not count as FAW (Fluff as written )

Ultramarine honor guards would be litearlly more accomplished than entire companies of "inferior" chapters.

100 ultramarines plus PDF could accomplish what 1000 Iron Warriors and 500 defilers on a planet made up entirely of Iron Warrior fortresses and defense guns could not: stop a hive fleet.

Did anybody notice were the greater melissa went?

this has got to be the most funny thread in dakka right now.

Upon victory Tyranid players would get to have your entire army and melt them down into Tyranid models

Well a tyranid player could have ALOT more models.

The Swarmlord would kill everything you hold dear.

The Parasite of Morton would make endless ripper squads.

Old one eye would be like an even more annoying necron.

IG fighting your Tyranid army would die from inhalation of microrganism 'nids.

If an Ultramarine force fights Tyranids, they can't lose. If the 'Nids kill off all the marines, an Emperor-class battleship will appear and detonate it's warp engines, thus giving the "win" to the Ultramarines.

Seriously, that's what makes me the most annoyed about the Smurfs, they didn't bloody beat Behemoth, Dominus Astra did!

Blood angels would also have to roll to see if they have the rage then roll again to see if they survive haha (even though it doesnt happen that often)

Tactics might occur, rather than gun rugby.

shrike wrote:SM will destoy anything. raven guard would be practically invisible. (for those of you who have read chapter's due- that.) (for those of you who have listened to raven's flight- every raven guard is now nearly as good as corax) bye iron warriors.

Dont want invisible raven guard! The stuff of nightmares .

"from the darkness we strike, fast and lethal, and by the time our foe reacts- darkness there, and nothing more".
the last bit sounds a lot like Poe's "the raven". Raven? Raven guard?. "...darkness there, and nothing more...croaked the raven..." ect. never thought of that. hmm.

Wolf Scous could jump onto enemy skimmers.
A Wolf Lord could make an Ork dread mob run away by staring at it.
Grey Hunters would automatically make allied IG better but once the battle is over the allied IG will be put in work camps.

I think if we moved on to 40K - In the future there is only Fluff, we would need to move onto D20's to get a better range of power.

A wound would affect BS, T, WS, L

SM would be incredibly tough. TASM would be nigh-unstoppable without relying on heavy anti-tank/ordnance.

One Imperator Titan would own any Apocalypse battlefield even more than they already can.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:One Imperator Titan would own any Apocalypse battlefield even more than they already can.

Completely unrelated, but do the Imperator Titans have actual stat entries somewhere?

I think that fluff has already been incorporated into the rules in many instances (Blood Angels). Your quoting/referencing subtle details that are intended to accentuate the storyline/fluff and give a dynamice feel to the characters/units. I think the way the game is now is good enough...without adding another level of confusion with additional esoteric rules

Element206 wrote:I think that fluff has already been incorporated into the rules in many instances (Blood Angels). Your quoting/referencing subtle details that are intended to accentuate the storyline/fluff and give a dynamice feel to the characters/units. I think the way the game is now is good enough...without adding another level of confusion with additional esoteric rules

You didn't really read any of this, did you?

Ixias wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:One Imperator Titan would own any Apocalypse battlefield even more than they already can.

Completely unrelated, but do the Imperator Titans have actual stat entries somewhere?

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2440056_Imperial_Datasheet_-_Emperor_Battle_Titan.pdf

Sadly, compared to fluff, it's not awesome enough...

Ixias wrote:You didn't really read any of this, did you?

I did. I hope you werent expecting me to read all 4 pages of the thread though. I responded to your initial post:

Ixias wrote:What would happen if fluff was rules?

your thread doesnt present a clear idea or any type of outline for what your looking for. If your just looking for examples of 'one-liners' in fluff then your right, I didnt list any. But how exactly do you expect people to respond to a post with little direction of what your looking for?

While you do have a point, there was clarification in the third post of the thread. I also gave examples in my initial post even though you are correct that I did not explicitly state what the purpose of the thread was.

EDIT: Anyway, misunderstandings aside let the thread continue.

since I misunderstood what you were wanting...allow me to rectify that I know that your not inferring we SHOULD play with the fluff rules, but your right, it would be out of sheer stupidity if we did! Anyway, I imagine you were looking for something more on the lines of this:

- Warlocks -- "a witchblade strikes with devastating bursts of force that can incinerate a foe where he stands." -- lets make it a close combat blast weapon with a template and a roll-to-hit is instant death!

New USR 'Plot Armour'

Up to 12 non-special character models without an armour value may be given this USR:
- Models with this USR must have a name painted/written on their base, this gives them a 2+ Plot Armour save against all wounds.

Special characters automatically get the Plot Armour USR and do not count towards the 12 model limit.

If fluff was rules:

A squad of 10 marines would be able to take on literally hundreds (maybe even thousands) of nids and orks without losing half their squad. (same with CSM)

There would be FAR more nids/orks but they would die FAR easier.

Guardsmen are pretty close as they are IMO

Eldar would generally be a bit better all round.

Necrons would be even harder to kill.

GKs would be like marines but 10x more so (even better against daemons)

Witch hunters are pretty close IMO

Tau would be harder to kill and allot more devastating firepower.

Explosions would actually throw people after being hit.

You would do saves before rolling to wound.

(mind you to make this all fit the entire model range would need to be rebalanced as well)

Wazdakka would tank shock titans, and they would explode, and he would survive.

EagleArk wrote:Wazdakka would tank shock titans, and they would explode, and he would survive.

Lol'd at that one, had forgotten that piece of lore =)

If fluff was rules, what C.S.Goto says would actually be right... *shudders*

Element206 wrote:since I misunderstood what you were wanting...allow me to rectify that I know that your not inferring we SHOULD play with the fluff rules, but your right, it would be out of sheer stupidity if we did! Anyway, I imagine you were looking for something more on the lines of this:

- Warlocks -- "a witchblade strikes with devastating bursts of force that can incinerate a foe where he stands." -- lets make it a close combat blast weapon with a template and a roll-to-hit is instant death!

Check around halfway down page 2 for the "Fluff RAI" argument