The techmarine with a free jump pack and a combi-melta. 60 pts for a DOA deep striking suicide melta unit with a 2+ save. Not much out there better than that.
ROLF ... so what you're saying is his job is to die? Free KP
Look you want to have 2D6 anit armour?
I'd take Land speeders with a Multi-Melta 60pts (though I'd also find 10pts for a Heavy Flamer). Having a a bigger gun means it can scatter away from the target and still have a good shot at being under half range.
DooDoo wrote:The techmarine with a free jump pack and a combi-melta. 60 pts for a DOA deep striking suicide melta unit with a 2+ save. Not much out there better than that.
I think it would be better just to save the 60 points for an Assault Squad with Meltagun/ Flamer and PF sarge. It is a better investment. I think suicide units are best when they give a first turn kill. Forfeiting a KP for a third tunr kill is a waste, just have an assault squad do it.
You only need one elite slot for priests. The techie can also be given a power weapon. That, plus his 2+ save, means that people will be using heavy weapons to get rid of him.
He has WS4, one base attack, one wound, no invulnerable. Why would I be using Heavy weapons to kill him? If he touches a model with any sort of armour ignoring attack in combat he's dust.
Give him a power weapon so he can have a single attack with it given you exchanged his BP for a Combi-melta? Sounds like someone doesn't understand the point of suicide-melta, and that's the least of it.
Sure, if he does kill a vehicle on the drop he might have been worth it over a landspeeder because he boosts your cover elsewhere on the table. Might. Because a Landspeeder is still a real threat in following turns if your opponent has vehicles left on the table.
If he doesn't kill a vehicle, I hope that bolster defenses end up worth the 60 points you paid for it.
Meh, just hit him with anything really and he bends over. If all else fails, use fire. In other words, shoot him with bolters/flashlights/pulse carbines/slingshots and kill him with volume of fire, not that hard against single models with 1 wound...
First of all, you'd have to deep strike in cover to get it, thus risking your model. If you manage to do that, you've got to hit, penetrate (preferrably) and roll a 4+ with your melta. Then you realize that your cover save won't mean diddley against small-arms fire, and you curse yourself as your 1W Kill Point meets an untimely deat, possibly without accomplishing anything.
Look its quite simple ... It doesn't do the job as well as other units. You can try and make him work but the end of the day you'd have been better off taking 60pts of hunter-killer missiles ... they also suck but are more likely to kill something and don't gve up a KP
It seems like a useful model, if you have excess Elite slots, which is quite possible if you're building a mass Fast Pred/mech sort of list.
I would consider it an option, but no more than an option; if I can see the unit working well within the overall list I may take it, but a single DS melta shot is not impressive enough to make me try to shift a list around to include it.
If I was running a 6 Pred list with two deep-striking Lance Librarians, then two more DS melta solos might be useful for breaking up enemy formations and giving my opponent another wildcard factor to think about, in addition to my AV13 wall.
A techmarine as you describe, which takes up an elites slot which I can put sanguiary priests, furiso dreads, sternguard and terminators in plus other less used choices.
-He can take damage from weapons of all strength.
-He has one wound, this means if a single wound gets through your armour save or someone pops a meltagun in you face (the melta will probably be moving up into a AT firing -position so them shooting at you on the move doesn't detract from their shooting much), if he scatters into cover and fails his DT test he dies instantly.
-He has mediocre combat ability for an elites slot, he won't stand up in combat, he'll fall down to serious or lucky shooting and there is a 1/3 chance he'll wiff his combi-melta shot meaning his entire plan is ruined.
-Can bolster defenses (how useful is that to an aggressive army)
I could then take;
A land speeder with multi-melta
-This takes up a fast attack slot which has close to the amount of competition as BA elites.
-It is immune to S3 or less weaponry and S4 can only glance it, this means it has good protection vs small arms compare to a tech priest.
-It's a fast skimmer which means it'll get into place quicker and can gain a 4+ cover save when needed.
-It has more than one melta shot
-It doesn't have to be within 6" of a target to be effective.
-It will stand up in close combat better due to the armour and it can drive away at the end.
-For an extra 10pts it also becomes an effective anti-hoard vehicle
-They can be taken 3 per a slot alleviating the problem of slots.
An attack bike with muti-melta. (for 50pts)
-This takes up a fast attack slot which has close to the amount of competition as BA elites.
-Has T5 making them slightly better vs small arms
-Have a worse save so they suffer vs Ap3 weaponry (but how much of that do we see around these days?)
-Saves 10pts over a suicide techmarine.
-It has more than one melta shot
-It doesn't have to be within 6" of a target to be effective
-They can be taken 3 per a slot alleviating the problem of slots.
I could also invest the 60pts into a unit of assault marines with 2 meltaguns.
-Costs 60pts more
-Has an extra shot
-Can shoot multiple times
-Is scoring
-Doesn't take a slot with high competition in it.
-It has more than one melta shot
-Option of buying a 35pt off transport which can also mount anti-tank weapons.
The last three options IMO and the opinion of most other people trump the techmarine.
But I am not suggesting the techmarine replace the fast attack slots or assault marines. I am suggesting that it is a good unit when you are looking to max out the FOC
DooDoo wrote:But I am not suggesting the techmarine replace the fast attack slots or assault marines. I am suggesting that it is a good unit when you are looking to max out the FOC
... What? Who want to max out the FOC? What possible advantage is there in having everything?
DooDoo wrote:But I am not suggesting the techmarine replace the fast attack slots or assault marines. I am suggesting that it is a good unit when you are looking to max out the FOC
OK, good point but, if I've already maxed out on my slots, then surely I'll have enough melta already? Sanguinary priests, furisos, sternguard, terminators... hell, even sanguinary guard are probably better choices for maxing a FoC.
On a side note, by the time you've fill HS, FA, troops and HQ in a BA army and you still need more melta, your doing something wrong.
If BA had master of the forges with jump packs then it might be worth it because HQ slots lack competition in low point games but other than that I really don't see the idea working. A close combat or support orientated tech marines might work but with a jump pack the whole point of tech marines goes out the window (they fix vehicles, but they'll have not chance without a servo arm) and if you want a CC support unit a chaplain or sanguinary priest work better.
Furiosos don't work you say, well I say you don't know how to use them yourself then because mine 9 times out of ten preform amazingly well and are still on the board.
Grey Templar wrote:the BA have much better ways of using their Elite Slots.
3 Priests and 2 Furioso Libbys comes to mind.
Perhaps if you played the army you would know that furiosos dont really work.
Alright, now you have shown you are trolling. Furiosos can take blood tallons. A pair of them. Guess how man attacks? INFINITE! INFINITE ATTACKS! All you have to do is wound, then your number of wounds goes back to being your attacks, and you do it right then. I have seen several 30 man boys squads die in a single round of combat to ONE of these bad boys. And lets not forget, if you REALLY want melta in elites, tank sternguard in a drop pod. They get special ammunition, there is five of them, they can take 2 actual melta guns for 5 points AND combi-meltas for 5 points and get all other ranged weapons for a massive discount. The tech marine, who should only really be taken if your 1-1 on troops and tanks, is the least useful of the Elites slots. You can trust me. I'm a doctor.
DooDoo wrote:Perhaps if you played the army you would know that furiosos dont really work.
From the brilliant tactical master-mind that gave us the techpriest bomb!
I play BA's and I use three furioso libbies in my mech list. They are amazing. I actually want a tech-priest in my army, as it would be awesome to get my furiosos up and running again if they get immobilized, but as others have said, elite slots are precious in a BA army. The priest should have been a "no-slot" IMO, that's the only way people would see one on the table.
Your idea is flawed because a single melta at Bs4 is not reliable enough. KP's also have to be considered to some degree, and there are better choices for this particular role in the BA codex. Deepstriking units with melta is not hard to come by in the codex.
furiosos are pretty amazing, and even if they weren't priests are the gem of elities and then you have termies, and libbie dreds to think about. your techpriest would be good if i have 60 points to spare and an elite spot to spare, but in my lists i never do considering i play priest and dred/sang priest heavy. plus if i do have the points i could choose a better unit for tank killing, one that is more viable. your model has one wound with a good save, i can rapid fire my guardsmen and prob kill him in a turn...
Stern guard are even better then the tech marine when it comes to deep strike melta. Tech marines are a support unit at BEST! The only list they should be in is a meched up list. Trust me, I used to run a tech priest with a combi flamer (Anti Deepstrike). He almost always died when a unit shot at him, and failed to do almost anything.
Also, just as a side note, I HATE the term "suicide unit". I try to treat these games as a real battle. As in, you shouldn't be trying to kill your own men. Ever. Man. Counts.
And then we can tell you that the water you have lead us to is actually an open sewage drain, and that a fresh mountain spring, a soda vending machine and a bar are very close by.
Answer me this. Since mech BA have no room for speeders, where do you get your suicide melta from? Your troops? Why is that a good idea? Or, do you spend 205 pts on a 4 melta honor guard?
you can buy a honor guard squad with 4 meltas for what, 150 and that can be a good squad, with melta, and FnP.
You also don't need suicide melta to win... assault squads with melta are great, they can melta a tank and if they have a priest nearby they wont die so easily, def in an army of DoA army that is all about how fast and close you can get to the enemy. you can also get a speeder with multimelta which also forces people to lead fire too it.
another is a sternguard squad with combi-melta in a drop pod. They can work well too!
also your choice of suicide melta isnt as useful at all... you get ONE SHOT!! for 60 points before that model is dead.... think of it that way, if you can spend 60 more points for an assault squad with two meltas you get a squad which can take objectives, get TWO shots, and assault and kill many units....
plus the whole point stuff with a tech marine is to get to use his whole like fixing tanks ability and that isn't utalized when hes jping into enemy land to get his one shot which may miss, and most likely do nothing... only to get rapid fired, or plasmed to death... and give the enemy a KP
DooDoo wrote:Answer me this. Since mech BA have no room for speeders, where do you get your suicide melta from? Your troops? Why is that a good idea? Or, do you spend 205 pts on a 4 melta honor guard?
Mech ba players won't drop dead at the game table if they take their 3baal 3fast vindi razorback list and drop 1 baal for a speeder.
normally, Suicide Melta is used when the army doesn't have much Melta elsewhere.
BA's are rolling in Melta with the option to take it on Assault squads and, because of this, don't need Suicide Melta. especially in a FoC slot that has so much more to offer.
DooDoo wrote:Answer me this. Since mech BA have no room for speeders, where do you get your suicide melta from? Your troops? Why is that a good idea? Or, do you spend 205 pts on a 4 melta honor guard?
You dont USE a suicide unit. Its a waste of points, a waste of time, a waste of a slot and a waste of manpower. And why cant you take the speeders from FA? Mech armies generally are all loaded in transports, so there is no shortage of manpower. Razorbacks can be kitted to fill the void of Anti tank or anti-infantry if need be. So taking away ONE Ball pred for a MM landspeeder squadren (1-3, add to taste). With that set up, you have something that can pop down, shoot the tank you wanted dead, probably kill it, have the ability to fire again if you failed the first shot and have a higher survivability rate and kill rate then your tech marine, who has one shot no matter what, and after he shoots he is now in the middle of enemy territory with only a bolter. And the landspeeder costs the same price.
My army has exactly 0 suicide melta units, and runs fine. Sure, I have two melta guns, but they are in units DESIGNED to live. When building a list, you dont build with the intention of having half of it DIE by turn two. You make it be able to withstand punishment. I run a 5 man assault squad with a melta gun, plasma pistol, power weapon and priest. They have taken lots of shots and walked through it, have more then one shot and can capture an objective. Honestly, your idea is to give your opponent the benefit of taking away on of your elites slots, for MAYBE killing one of his tanks, which are showing up in non-meq books as squadrons of one to three now. And dont give me this "2+ armor save" thing. One lasscanon to the face and your dead. Not to mention lasscanons and their equivalents aren't very rare in 5th to show up 2 or more times.
DooDoo wrote:Answer me this. Since mech BA have no room for speeders, where do you get your suicide melta from? Your troops? Why is that a good idea? Or, do you spend 205 pts on a 4 melta honor guard?
You dont USE a suicide unit. Its a waste of points, a waste of time, a waste of a slot and a waste of manpower. And why cant you take the speeders from FA? Mech armies generally are all loaded in transports, so there is no shortage of manpower. Razorbacks can be kitted to fill the void of Anti tank or anti-infantry if need be. So taking away ONE Ball pred for a MM landspeeder squadren (1-3, add to taste). With that set up, you have something that can pop down, shoot the tank you wanted dead, probably kill it, have the ability to fire again if you failed the first shot and have a higher survivability rate and kill rate then your tech marine, who has one shot no matter what, and after he shoots he is now in the middle of enemy territory with only a bolter. And the landspeeder costs the same price.
My army has exactly 0 suicide melta units, and runs fine. Sure, I have two melta guns, but they are in units DESIGNED to live. When building a list, you dont build with the intention of having half of it DIE by turn two. You make it be able to withstand punishment. I run a 5 man assault squad with a melta gun, plasma pistol, power weapon and priest. They have taken lots of shots and walked through it, have more then one shot and can capture an objective. Honestly, your idea is to give your opponent the benefit of taking away on of your elites slots, for MAYBE killing one of his tanks, which are showing up in non-meq books as squadrons of one to three now. And dont give me this "2+ armor save" thing. One lasscanon to the face and your dead. Not to mention lasscanons and their equivalents aren't very rare in 5th to show up 2 or more times.
Whilst he's trolling your responding to it badly, since he's mentioning the ol' 3 baal preds/3 vindi shenanigans, hence your FA's are 3 preds, no room for speeders
Also I gotta say your local meta must be odd if your example of "withstanding punishment" is a 5 man unit of marines with a priest... there are plenty of ways to get around FNP and marines armour, usually at the same time.
DooDoo wrote:Answer me this. Since mech BA have no room for speeders, where do you get your suicide melta from? Your troops? Why is that a good idea? Or, do you spend 205 pts on a 4 melta honor guard?
You dont USE a suicide unit. Its a waste of points, a waste of time, a waste of a slot and a waste of manpower. And why cant you take the speeders from FA? Mech armies generally are all loaded in transports, so there is no shortage of manpower. Razorbacks can be kitted to fill the void of Anti tank or anti-infantry if need be. So taking away ONE Ball pred for a MM landspeeder squadren (1-3, add to taste). With that set up, you have something that can pop down, shoot the tank you wanted dead, probably kill it, have the ability to fire again if you failed the first shot and have a higher survivability rate and kill rate then your tech marine, who has one shot no matter what, and after he shoots he is now in the middle of enemy territory with only a bolter. And the landspeeder costs the same price.
My army has exactly 0 suicide melta units, and runs fine. Sure, I have two melta guns, but they are in units DESIGNED to live. When building a list, you dont build with the intention of having half of it DIE by turn two. You make it be able to withstand punishment. I run a 5 man assault squad with a melta gun, plasma pistol, power weapon and priest. They have taken lots of shots and walked through it, have more then one shot and can capture an objective. Honestly, your idea is to give your opponent the benefit of taking away on of your elites slots, for MAYBE killing one of his tanks, which are showing up in non-meq books as squadrons of one to three now. And dont give me this "2+ armor save" thing. One lasscanon to the face and your dead. Not to mention lasscanons and their equivalents aren't very rare in 5th to show up 2 or more times.
Whilst he's trolling your responding to it badly, since he's mentioning the ol' 3 baal preds/3 vindi shenanigans, hence your FA's are 3 preds, no room for speeders
Also I gotta say your local meta must be odd if your example of "withstanding punishment" is a 5 man unit of marines with a priest... there are plenty of ways to get around FNP and marines armour, usually at the same time.
I'm sorry, 3+/4+ can take a lot of shots before dieing. And my razorback example was showing that sometimes the 3 baal preds isnt the best idea, as you still need some sort of fast anti-tank. And you can still get your anti-horde fix without the Baals. And the reason I responded like this to the obvious troll is to try and stop some new, poor, inexperienced kid from thinking that the DS Tech Marine melta idea was a good one.
As I said before, the suicide techpriest isn't a terrible idea if you're running the 6x Predator/Vindie/Predator AV13 walls. Generally you'll have two (or more) elite slots left over regardless of army size, so if you don't want to max out on Land Raiders a one-shot throwaway melta guy or two could be worth having, as much for a disruption model as for vehicle-killing potential.
I've played a lot of suicide squads; 4th ed plasmavets, 5th ed melta stormies, termicide/Oblit drop, Lone Wolves even, and single throwaway models can be useful, even during killpoint scenarios, even against armies with no valuable mech targets because he can still get into a soft back-field squad and mix it up.
Are they the hidden gem of BA elites? No. But it seems like this originated on YTTH and the kneejerk reactions against its inclusion go beyond what I find logical or even coherent.
In case some of us didnt know, whats YTTH stand for? Is it another website?Maybe you should explain in case someone here didnt know what that was...
Also, to clarify, a techmarine cant take a melta gun, only a combi-melta. I am sure that it has been said many times, but I thought one more wouldn't hurt.
The major problem is it's only one shot, 33% of the time it will miss. Basically youre giving up a potential free kp for nothing in return. While 60 points might not sound like a lot it's could be better used elsewhere. BA is an army that can spam melta so it not like you really need it. Also does a razor spam army really must have 6 preds? No it doesn't. Drop one and take a squadron of two MM landspeeders. This is a much more viable choice plus you get two shots the turn the speeders arrive from reserve.
i understand your point sourclams (nice name too ) but i don't think this version of a suicide melta is very good. evenif i had an extra 60 points i wouldnt spend it on a unit that doesn't really work well as a suicide melta. the examples you mentioned are much more well trained then a model with one wound and one shot.. plasma vets can wound allocate away from the three plasmas and you get three rapid shots. stormies are the same deal with two meltas who can wound allocate. terminators have a 2+/5+ save and also can wound allocate and have a bunch of meltas...
i don't like a unit that doesn't really utilize its best abilities and also doesn't perform its function very well... sternguard would be better with a DP and combi-meltas...or a deep striking assault marine squad with a melta. these can be suicide squads that are much better at doing the function of a suicide squad, which isnt to shoot a melta gun, but to KILL a tank. you wnat to have a unit which has the power to almost always get rid of at least one tank, and hopefully survive to get rid of another or at least draw away enough firepower to save your other units.
this techpriest may have 60 points, but i could knock him out with a normal infantry squad rapid firing, or take a few plasma guns and get rid of him, this isn't getting rid of much of my firepower or forcing me to really change much of my plan of action.
Happygrunt wrote:In case some of us didnt know, whats YTTH stand for? Is it another website?Maybe you should explain in case someone here didnt know what that was...
Happygrunt wrote:In case some of us didnt know, whats YTTH stand for? Is it another website?Maybe you should explain in case someone here didnt know what that was...
Yes the truth hurts, it the Troll version of BOLS, that seeks only to piss off whoever reads it. Or at least it started like that, but they may have branched out to legitamate musings after I stopped reading (shortly after I started reading)
EDIT: Wait, how did I get sextuple-ninja'd? Did I just miss an entire page? *facepalm*
It doesn't matter. If it makes your opponent adjust their game just a little bit, especially if they are forced to pop smoke early against a list like 6x Pred chassis, knowing that there's a deepstriking @sshole who can screw over a rhino squad with 3 pieplate tossers backing him up on the table certainly can change gameplans.
As to your statement that I can just "drop" one of my six Pred chassis from the AV13 wall... that right there is enough justification to take the suicide techpriest; I don't have to drop one of my Preds or convert an assault squad to jump packs and give up the razorback for the mech gunline, I can just take the 60 pt throwaway d00d.
You'd be surprised. If you're staring at 6 AV13 hulls and another 4 AV11 las/plas razorbacks, the addition of two jump pack blood lance librarians and two suicide techies certainly could change up your deployment lines, or force you to put another squad onto an objective or divert a more elite unit to babysit.
I'm not saying that a techpriest is a must-have unit, but I could certainly see one being better than worthless in proper lists, which is the general reaction in this thread.
Yeah it's really not something that is going to change your game plan. The tech marine could always mishap as well. Where is it written thou shalt field 6 preds? I mean seriously you don't need all six to have a competitive army.
Seriously, your responses are just getting stupid.
Of course he could mishap. He's 60 points. I don't care.
Your argument of 'just take less preds to fit in something else to do the same job as the 60 point guy' is not an argument. In the list that I'm discussing, Heavy, Troop, and Fast slots are at a premium, HQ and Elite by contrast are not. Dropping a premium slot to take a utility unit makes no sense. The list has 6 Preds. I want 6 preds. There is no room for land speeders in the list because it already has filled the Fast.
My question is Why you are using up a BA elite slot that could be,
A Furioso Librarian with Wings.
3 Sanguinary Priests.
or some TH/SS terminators(accompanied by a Priest in TDA)
True he is 60 points, but i see losing the Elite Slot to be of far greater cost then the actual points. You have Melta covered by your Assault squads(who will already be Deep Striking or flying towards the enemy anyway)
IMO: Suicide Melta is for lists that sit back and shoot or are meched up and advancing and don't have Melta elsewhere.
IMO aswell: Suicide Melta is a bit of a desperate gamble maneuver and unless your list will rely on it for it's melta(which may not be a wise thing) then it really has no place.
For their point cost, I just didn't like the role that the Furiosos played in the mech wall list. If I could have taken the standard 2x TLAC Dreads, then game on, absolutely.
The Furiosos just kinda plodded around, and the Libby upgrade put them at a similar cost to another 5 man squad in Razorback.
In general I buy Sang priests and then I just have Elite slots left over.
I still don't see any evidence presented why 6 preds are a must have for BA razorspam. When you run six typically the army has no real close combat punch. It's just a highly mobile shooty army. If you think that the preds are always going to be able to shield the razorbacks that's just not the case as there are many units that can outflank or deepstrike and shoot to get behind the AV13 wall. Units such as vendettas can shoot over the preds while drawing a clear line of sight. If the argument is you must field 6 preds so any other fast attack unit is not viable that's not true. You'll need to provide a more convincing argument other than you have to have them.
Alright a tactfull aproach. The tech bomb is a viable tactic and option in the codex. Is it a gamble, yes. Is it to much of a gamble to take, depends on the player ymmv. Another benifit I did not see mentioned was the bolster defences option, or am I wrong in that and remembering the Vinilla Tech marine. I myself responded to the statement about Furioso dreads being useless, I have not lost a one on one standard game with my BA in months, and I run 2 of them so I know that is a statement I can argue against. So is a tech bomb a useable tactic for some armies and playstyles, yes. Is it something no one else looked at and now seeing it in print will change how many play the game probably not. Will I myself try this out just to see, most likely in a small game yes. Never turn away a possible tool in your codex, but this one is not going to make it into most lists with the elite slots it is competeing with. I would take a chaplin for a squad over the priest myself, for pretty much the same points.
i understand what you are saying Sourclam, i just think there are better ways to do it, such as blood lance libbies. the techie with melta can get its one shot and maybe it would be worthwhile, but i see other options as beingbetter than this one.
DooDoo wrote:Answer me this. Since mech BA have no room for speeders, where do you get your suicide melta from? Your troops? Why is that a good idea? Or, do you spend 205 pts on a 4 melta honor guard?
You dont USE a suicide unit. Its a waste of points, a waste of time, a waste of a slot and a waste of manpower. And why cant you take the speeders from FA? Mech armies generally are all loaded in transports, so there is no shortage of manpower. Razorbacks can be kitted to fill the void of Anti tank or anti-infantry if need be. So taking away ONE Ball pred for a MM landspeeder squadren (1-3, add to taste). With that set up, you have something that can pop down, shoot the tank you wanted dead, probably kill it, have the ability to fire again if you failed the first shot and have a higher survivability rate and kill rate then your tech marine, who has one shot no matter what, and after he shoots he is now in the middle of enemy territory with only a bolter. And the landspeeder costs the same price.
My army has exactly 0 suicide melta units, and runs fine. Sure, I have two melta guns, but they are in units DESIGNED to live. When building a list, you dont build with the intention of having half of it DIE by turn two. You make it be able to withstand punishment. I run a 5 man assault squad with a melta gun, plasma pistol, power weapon and priest. They have taken lots of shots and walked through it, have more then one shot and can capture an objective. Honestly, your idea is to give your opponent the benefit of taking away on of your elites slots, for MAYBE killing one of his tanks, which are showing up in non-meq books as squadrons of one to three now. And dont give me this "2+ armor save" thing. One lasscanon to the face and your dead. Not to mention lasscanons and their equivalents aren't very rare in 5th to show up 2 or more times.
Whilst he's trolling your responding to it badly, since he's mentioning the ol' 3 baal preds/3 vindi shenanigans, hence your FA's are 3 preds, no room for speeders
Also I gotta say your local meta must be odd if your example of "withstanding punishment" is a 5 man unit of marines with a priest... there are plenty of ways to get around FNP and marines armour, usually at the same time.
I'm sorry, 3+/4+ can take a lot of shots before dieing. And my razorback example was showing that sometimes the 3 baal preds isnt the best idea, as you still need some sort of fast anti-tank. And you can still get your anti-horde fix without the Baals. And the reason I responded like this to the obvious troll is to try and stop some new, poor, inexperienced kid from thinking that the DS Tech Marine melta idea was a good one.
Can you read? I bolded the important bit. Play plague marines, it will give you excellent insight on how to squish FNP marines. Plague marines are tougher, too! But not to a plasma cannon
sourclams wrote:Seriously, your responses are just getting stupid.
Of course he could mishap. He's 60 points. I don't care.
Your argument of 'just take less preds to fit in something else to do the same job as the 60 point guy' is not an argument. In the list that I'm discussing, Heavy, Troop, and Fast slots are at a premium, HQ and Elite by contrast are not. Dropping a premium slot to take a utility unit makes no sense. The list has 6 Preds. I want 6 preds. There is no room for land speeders in the list because it already has filled the Fast.
You have 6 preds because you want 6 preds, not because you need 6 preds.
There are plenty of competitive mechanized BA lists that don't use 6 preds, the triple vindicator comes to mind.
Baal preds usually carry assault cannons.
If all the razorbacks are armed with assault cannons then the army has plenty of assault cannons.
Sometimes Baal carry flamestorm cannons, personally I think land speeders with MM/HF are better overall especially if Vindicators are the HS.
Assault cannon razorbacks+Vindicators+MM/HF land speeders is a perfectly viable BA mech list that doesn't contain a single pred, so you don't need a single pred in your list. The 6 pred list is a competitive list, but there are a lot of competitive mech BA lists that may or may not involve preds. Saying 6 preds is the only way to go is like trying to debate that your favorite flavor of ice cream is the only flavor that tastes good.
DooDoo wrote:Answer me this. Since mech BA have no room for speeders, where do you get your suicide melta from? Your troops? Why is that a good idea? Or, do you spend 205 pts on a 4 melta honor guard?
You dont USE a suicide unit. Its a waste of points, a waste of time, a waste of a slot and a waste of manpower. And why cant you take the speeders from FA? Mech armies generally are all loaded in transports, so there is no shortage of manpower. Razorbacks can be kitted to fill the void of Anti tank or anti-infantry if need be. So taking away ONE Ball pred for a MM landspeeder squadren (1-3, add to taste). With that set up, you have something that can pop down, shoot the tank you wanted dead, probably kill it, have the ability to fire again if you failed the first shot and have a higher survivability rate and kill rate then your tech marine, who has one shot no matter what, and after he shoots he is now in the middle of enemy territory with only a bolter. And the landspeeder costs the same price.
My army has exactly 0 suicide melta units, and runs fine. Sure, I have two melta guns, but they are in units DESIGNED to live. When building a list, you dont build with the intention of having half of it DIE by turn two. You make it be able to withstand punishment. I run a 5 man assault squad with a melta gun, plasma pistol, power weapon and priest. They have taken lots of shots and walked through it, have more then one shot and can capture an objective. Honestly, your idea is to give your opponent the benefit of taking away on of your elites slots, for MAYBE killing one of his tanks, which are showing up in non-meq books as squadrons of one to three now. And dont give me this "2+ armor save" thing. One lasscanon to the face and your dead. Not to mention lasscanons and their equivalents aren't very rare in 5th to show up 2 or more times.
Whilst he's trolling your responding to it badly, since he's mentioning the ol' 3 baal preds/3 vindi shenanigans, hence your FA's are 3 preds, no room for speeders
Also I gotta say your local meta must be odd if your example of "withstanding punishment" is a 5 man unit of marines with a priest... there are plenty of ways to get around FNP and marines armour, usually at the same time.
I'm sorry, 3+/4+ can take a lot of shots before dieing. And my razorback example was showing that sometimes the 3 baal preds isnt the best idea, as you still need some sort of fast anti-tank. And you can still get your anti-horde fix without the Baals. And the reason I responded like this to the obvious troll is to try and stop some new, poor, inexperienced kid from thinking that the DS Tech Marine melta idea was a good one.
Can you read? I bolded the important bit. Play plague marines, it will give you excellent insight on how to squish FNP marines. Plague marines are tougher, too! But not to a plasma cannon
So... I fail to see your point. Lots of things die from plasma cannons. Your Example, plague marines, are one. You can take out tanks with a plasma cannon. So thats some heavy ordinance that kills a lot. You need an invul save, and to my knowledge, orks are the only army that has an invul bubble. Also, I know how to kill FNP marines. I play them, so I should know what their weaknesses are. I really dont have much more of a response, because between your insults and emotion thingys you have lost your own point.
I agree a land speeder would be better used in this scenario. A better use of your tech marine would be to give him a combie flamer and keep the servo harness. Drop out of a rhino and get an easy 14-20 hits on something with a single unit and isn't limited to just blood angels to be used in this way. Don't forget 4+ repair is pretty nice too + Bolster defense and 2 power fist attacks. A lot in a small package.
The main problem with your strategy is the risk of being mishap-ed needing to land within 6 inches of a tank. The risk is to great even with a 60 point model.
Consider using Legion of the damned with a MM and MG. Even a 5 man squad stands a chance to shoot more meltas at more tanks in the next run because of 3+i saves and being fearless. They re roll their scatters so can be used more aggressive and only need 12inch for 2d6 with the MM. Give the Leader a PF and now you can do it right next to a dreadnought and dare it to charge you.
Well you seem ok saying implying that someone would be stupid to use the DS'ing tech marine, but I gotta say Sourclams and others have argued it logically and with a voice of experience, not "MAH SOLDIERS AREN'T HERE TO DIE! SUICIDE UNITS ARE WRONG!".
That and you DONT read, which is why you ask "why can't you take speeders in the FA?" and other silly questions, when the answers are literally in the thread in front of you.
@rines of glory- thats actually a interesting idea, when you add a combiflamer sarge and flamer tac marine in the combat squad in said rhino. It's still and elites slot though, which is a competetive slot in vanilla marines...
Jihallah wrote:Well you seem ok saying implying that someone would be stupid to use the DS'ing tech marine, but I gotta say Sourclams and others have argued it logically and with a voice of experience, not "MAH SOLDIERS AREN'T HERE TO DIE! SUICIDE UNITS ARE WRONG!".
That and you DONT read, which is why you ask "why can't you take speeders in the FA?" and other silly questions, when the answers are literally in the thread in front of you.
@rines of glory- thats actually a interesting idea, when you add a combiflamer sarge and flamer tac marine in the combat squad in said rhino. It's still and elites slot though, which is a competetive slot in vanilla marines...
That's precisely how I use him. Usually only if I take a LR or I also Like to run the Master of the Forge in the same way. Get 6 Dreds on the table and Support support a tactical squad for 4x flammer drop - Usually roasts an entire squad.
Jihallah wrote:Well you seem ok saying implying that someone would be stupid to use the DS'ing tech marine, but I gotta say Sourclams and others have argued it logically and with a voice of experience, not "MAH SOLDIERS AREN'T HERE TO DIE! SUICIDE UNITS ARE WRONG!".
That and you DONT read, which is why you ask "why can't you take speeders in the FA?" and other silly questions, when the answers are literally in the thread in front of you.
@rines of glory- thats actually a interesting idea, when you add a combiflamer sarge and flamer tac marine in the combat squad in said rhino. It's still and elites slot though, which is a competetive slot in vanilla marines...
That's precisely how I use him. Usually only if I take a LR or I also Like to run the Master of the Forge in the same way. Get 6 Dreds on the table and Support support a tactical squad for 4x flammer drop - Usually roasts an entire squad.
Sounds like a fun list Sounds like it needs speeders for mobile AT, as the rest of the AT seems to be dreads.
BA have an abundance of melta in their other slots. So instead of filling your elite slots with techmarines that will get off one shot and be slaughtered, possibly even without having an effect, it would be far smarter to fill it with Furioso's or priests or even termies.
... I said this earlier and I'll say it again. Tech priest is worse then the same points of HK missiles ... and i think HK are overpriced wastests of space. (immobilised or worse) TP VS AV ... ignoring scatter 10 = 568/1296 = 43.8% 11 = 544/1296 = 42% 12 = 504/1296 = 38.8% 13 = 448/1296 = 34.5% 14 = 376/1296 = 29.0%
So unless you're attack a land raider you would have been better off with HK ... isn't that sad. Personally I'd look at my list and see where i could spend 60pts that wasn't a TP or 6HK missile but if you're gona wast the point wast them on the one that doesn't give at KP's
Tri wrote:
(immobilised or worse)
TP VS AV ... ignoring scatter
10 = 568/1296 = 43.8%
11 = 544/1296 = 42%
12 = 504/1296 = 38.8%
13 = 448/1296 = 34.5%
14 = 376/1296 = 29.0%
This, plus the free KP is the biggest issues with the tactic. He is not reliable. When you get suicide-whatever, you want it to take out something important before it dies. These numbers are not good enough, and if you add scatter too, they will drop a bit more. The reason f.ex. termicide is popular is because it is decently reliable.
Sourclams - devils advocate much? I agree that many posters have gone overboard, but this just isn't a good tactic. Those 60pts could be spend on pretty much anything else in the list and be better spent. HK missiles, power fists, inferno pistols etc. etc. As others have said, you don't NEED 6 preds, you don't NEED suicide melta, and even if you want 6 preds and suicide melta, you still have other options: libbies (which you already use - how much suicide stuff do you need?), sternguard, assault marines, furioso.
Jihallah wrote:Well you seem ok saying implying that someone would be stupid to use the DS'ing tech marine, but I gotta say Sourclams and others have argued it logically and with a voice of experience, not "MAH SOLDIERS AREN'T HERE TO DIE! SUICIDE UNITS ARE WRONG!".
That and you DONT read, which is why you ask "why can't you take speeders in the FA?" and other silly questions, when the answers are literally in the thread in front of you.
@rines of glory- thats actually a interesting idea, when you add a combiflamer sarge and flamer tac marine in the combat squad in said rhino. It's still and elites slot though, which is a competetive slot in vanilla marines...
I am going to assume this was posted in a fit of troll/rage and ignore it. So lets both just step back from the computer and breath. I gave my opinion, no reason to insult me for it. I would like to use thsi time to remind people of Dakka's rule #1, and to try and keep the thread on track. Thanks!
You can give VV the meltabombs. One game I was able to charge three preds and blew them all off the table. The look on my opponent's face was priceless.
I am going to assume this was posted in a fit of troll/rage and ignore it. So lets both just step back from the computer and breath. I gave my opinion, no reason to insult me for it. I would like to use thsi time to remind people of Dakka's rule #1, and to try and keep the thread on track. Thanks!
I pointed out you don't read the posts in the thread. Is it an insult to say the sky is blue? keep on topic btw
DooDoo wrote:You can also give homeboy some melt a bombs if you really want to make him annoying
Can you get a harness AND a jumppack? combimelta, meltabombs AND powerfist attacks? Homeboy go them tanks on lockdown
DooDoo wrote:You can also give homeboy some melt a bombs if you really want to make him annoying
... ok give who melta bombs? Tech-priests don't have the option, so have we moved on to sanguinary priests?
... Tech priest is a good model ...
it comes with 3 things that give it a reason to be the price it is.
Bolster Defence ... cool +1 to a cover save somewhere on the board. Doesn't matter how you up grade him it will always be there
Servo arm ... He gets one additional attack that is a power fist. He is one of the very, very few models that strikes at more then one initiative value. Lost the moment you give him a jump pack
Blessing of the Omnissiah... repair a vehicle on a 5+. Still works even if you give him a jump pack but if you're D/S then that’s wasting it.
So take a tech priest give him some servitor and use him to repair vehicles (pair of plasma cannons can be worth while). Heck he can do it all from the safety of his improved cover save.
^+1 Tri is right, there are several great reasons for taking a tech priest in any marine list, but you lose so many of the abilities your paying for if you deepstrike that you pay for things you will not use.
doubled wrote:^+1 Tri is right, there are several great reasons for taking a tech priest in any marine list, but you lose so many of the abilities your paying for if you deepstrike that you pay for things you will not use.
My version of the tech priest is a back field disruptor rather than a handyman.
doubled wrote:^+1 Tri is right, there are several great reasons for taking a tech priest in any marine list, but you lose so many of the abilities your paying for if you deepstrike that you pay for things you will not use.
My version of the tech priest is a back field disruptor rather than a handyman.
Yes,
"an overpriced for what he MIGHT do Disrupter"
BA's don't need more Melta and there are more reliable ways of disrupting your opponents backfield.
Techmarines are for repairing vehicles not for dropping in to maybe Combi-melt something.
DooDoo wrote:How many games have you played using a BA list? Based on your advice, I infer that it is not many.
And perhaps his highness would be so good as to teach us? From his own extensive experience?
(+1 cookie for anyone who gets the reference)
Seriously, every poster who has formulated an argument against you, has been hit with some variation of 'you obviously don't play BA' when some people here have stated that they, in fact, DO play BA. They have also routinely and regularly highlighted the multitude of faults with the tactics you suggest; whilst you do nothing but quip oh-so-insightfully about leading us to water, as if you've discovered some hidden treasure and we're all fools for identifying it as the junk that it truly is.
Whilst there may be the case where you DoA, don't scatter, hit, penetrate and explode a Land Raider in Turn 2 exactly when you needed it, the liklihood of this happening is so obtuse as to be consigned to nothing more than a lucky streak of dice, rather than any display of excellent tactical acumen.
DooDoo wrote:How many games have you played using a BA list? Based on your advice, I infer that it is not many.
none, but i am familiar enough with the BA rules and options to know that a single shot melta on a single model won't do much. and i play regular marines so i know all the stats and the inferred data.
BA can get melta in their Assault squads and don't need this suicide Techie to deliver it. it's just a free KP for your opponent that MIGHT make his points back.
ive played maybe 30 games with a BADoA Jump pack army, have a good win streak, but ive been playing 40k for 6 years, and I think many of the people who have been posting have been playing 40k for a very long time and their advice should be looked at.
again your techpriest example coudl be used to maybe get something, which is true, if it works its a great way to use 60 points, but the CHANCES of it WORKING are so low that it isn't a perfect solution, and since there are other options which are more useful I would rather spend my points on those.
the point of 40k is not to have a plan that can work, such as a techmarine deep striking with a combi-melta, but rather you want a plan which has a higher chance of working in most situations. A techpriest is not that, and so is not entirely a worthwhile choice unless you have no other options. Does that make sense?
I have a friend who is a math teacher at NYU who plays 40k, and he uses this example to explain this:
In 40k you are required to be able to kill the tank, If you have a chocie between a Sm with missile launcher who lets say hits every time, and two orks who have a chance to hit once, twice, or not at all, you still want the SM since the point is to get that ONE hit in order to achieve a kill. the techpriest plan just gives you a chance rather than a high percent of winning which is what is needed.
I am going to assume this was posted in a fit of troll/rage and ignore it. So lets both just step back from the computer and breath. I gave my opinion, no reason to insult me for it. I would like to use thsi time to remind people of Dakka's rule #1, and to try and keep the thread on track. Thanks!
I pointed out you don't read the posts in the thread. Is it an insult to say the sky is blue? keep on topic btw
DooDoo wrote:You can also give homeboy some melt a bombs if you really want to make him annoying
Can you get a harness AND a jumppack? combimelta, meltabombs AND powerfist attacks? Homeboy go them tanks on lockdown
I do read the posts thank you. But continuing this conversation will only derail the tread, and leave many people with hurt feelings. So lets hug, make up, and move on.
Lycaeus Wrex wrote:And perhaps his highness would be so good as to teach us?
"Gracchus: Then perhaps Caesar will be so good as to teach us, out of his own extensive experience? " Gladiator 2000
Look its quite simple it is not a gem if can be done better with hunter killer missile; At least with them there is the ability to do damage 6 times.
When this last came up it was with Marbo; who bring a single demo charge. Reasons that Marbos good and a tech priest isn't are simple, Marbo turns up (normally with a reserve roll boost) and is placed. He doesn't scatter he's just there ... next he has a demo charge which is good for people and light tanks. Lastly though it may scatter the demo charge will always go off, I have never once seen it fail to kill something ... even if it was just Marbo that got killed.
I play BA very consistently, along with the other 5ed marine codices. This tactic has been useful when I have had no FA slots and I want some front lines melta that is not a scoring unit. Saying that a 60 pt techmarine is not as good as a sternguard squad is like saying a rhino wont keep your troops alive as well as a land raider. Points must be factored into the debate. In addition, due to the DOA rule, the techmarine is likely to come in early and on target.
No. To do so would cause either the TECHJUMP ROXXOR or TECHJUMP SUXXOR crowd to lose face. Thus, this must be a highly polarizing issue, with much spittle and vitriol flung across the aisle, until the end of time or a thread lock, in which case we can safely walk away knowing that we were right, and our reasonable arguments would have eventually swayed the opposition had mod interference not brought about a premature resolution.
Commander Endova wrote:Can't we just agree, that like 90% of other units in this game, that DooDoo's Techjumper may be situationally useful?
Taken from my post: 'Whilst there may be the case where you DoA, don't scatter, hit, penetrate and explode a Land Raider in Turn 2 exactly when you needed it, the liklihood of this happening is so obtuse as to be consigned to nothing more than a lucky streak of dice, rather than any display of tactical acumen. '
Think that kind of sums it up right?
I thiink the main issue is that situational usefulness, by its very nature, won't be useful all the time, or 50% of the time, so why spend the points and slots on a 'maybe' unit simply because you can? If you can't justfiy the points expenditure by providing decent objective evidence (maths) then people will be inclined to think that there are far better ways to spend that points allowance on. 60 points isn't a small amount; that's 2 x power fists or 6 x meltaguns, even a Sanguinary Priest you could buy instead, and well...I'd rather have two power fists for my assault squads than something that only works in purely ideal circumstances.
DooDoo wrote:I play BA very consistently, along with the other 5ed marine codices. This tactic has been useful when I have had no FA slots and I want some front lines melta that is not a scoring unit. Saying that a 60 pt techmarine is not as good as a sternguard squad is like saying a rhino wont keep your troops alive as well as a land raider. Points must be factored into the debate. In addition, due to the DOA rule, the techmarine is likely to come in early and on target.
Let me make a recommendation. Figure out how often this techmarine actually scores melta kills before dying (in how many games). Then model yourself six HK missiles, and in your next, say, three games, spend your points on those instead. Your vehicles are fast, so you should be able to shoot them all off the first turn. See if any of them end up making a tank kill. If you find that they make more kills on a game-by-game basis than your meltacide techmarine, then you will know that they are a more effective way of getting anti-tank in your army without spending FA or HS slots. If not, then post us some battle reports--we want to see this s*** in action!
This is, of course, unless your assault squads don't have meltaguns, in which case you should spend the points on those, and do the experiment that way.
With HK missiles you're stuck firing at the same facing of the vehicle as your main weapons. You're also stuck firing at the same target as your other weapons. A Baal Pred doesn't necessarily want to shoot at an ac/las pred; it's kinda stuck doing so or you've wasted your HK.
Similarly 6 HKs against AV13 is going to give you just as many pens as a Techjumper in side/rear armor plinking AV11 or 12 but without the benefit from AP1.
In short, dynamic angle of attack units like suicide melta do have advantages over a surplus of static fire like HKs. They also have a lot of disadvantages, but it's situationally useful.
HK missiles boost alpha strike though, and you can put them on your auto/las preds or your las/plas razors. I'm not advocating them as awesome equipment, but IMO, they are better than the techmarine.
If you're staring down 2 Land Raiders and a bunch of foot marines, though, those HKs are wasted points.
If you scatter with your techmarine or miss his melta shot, he's mostly wasted points, too.
If each HK explodes a rhino, awesome.
If our Techjumper explodes a Land Raider and miraculously kills the Chaplain inside in close combat a turn later, awesome.
HK missiles against a Hammerhead's front arc with Disruption pods are going to do nothing. Techjumper with rear armor should blow its gun off at the very least, and could live to charge a pathfinder squad to boot.
I mean yeah, both the tech jumper and HK missiles are what I would consider to be sub-optimal point investments. When they work, though, and it's truly difficult to mathhammer in-game effect on a DS suicide unit because the spread between works:doesn't work is so wide, then it's worth it.
Playing with it, it could have its uses - it is very situational. I personally would not pay 60 points for a single BS4 combimelta shot at 1KP that has a good chance of scattering out of double tap range.
Playing against it, i would ignore it. I am not afraid of a melta shot. When he landed he would do what he does and i would kill him. I would not need to redirect critical resources - he has 1 freakin' wound.
Lets look at scatter ... note this is not nice maths were possible I will simplify for the general good... I will assume that you are playing it safe and have placed the TP 6" away from the LR (only target of value).
1/3 you will not scatter what happens the other 2/3? Well you have the ability to move in any direction; since we are using fractions lets call all directions 1. That means that 50% (49.9r%) you will be moving out of melta range, making the best you’ll get a glance.
So is the other 50% safe? No there is a 6 by 6 Mishap zone directly in front of you since the average roll on 2D6 is 7 … well the chance of rolling 6 or higher are 72.2% … that said a 6 would only be a problem with a direct movement forwards ….
You know what I’m going to have to work this out fully but I’m loving the pure mathematics of this.
Tri, the point isn't that the pure math says its effective -- it doesn't.
The point is that your opponent can't really afford to ignore it, especially if you've got a fair amount of DS assets like 2x Lance Libbies and 2x Jump Priest.
If you ALSO have 3x AC/las pred or vindicators and Baals with HK and Las/plas Razors (quite possible), then you can force him to pop smoke early, to protect against your LR shooting, making vulnerable against your DS later on, or pop smoke later on to protect against DS, making vulnerable against your LR shooting, etc.
Your opponent is often not perfectly rational, and will often react to a worse-possible-outcome case as opposed to something within 1 standard deviation of the norm.
In that respect, the 60 pt investment in a suicide DS melta guy can have more effect than a 60 pt investment in HK missiles due to the dynamism he can bring to the table. HK missiles are not going to change attack lanes or game play beyond what 6 extra missiles add to weight of fire. Dynamic entry can create more angles of attack. That's why throwaway DS guys are useful, beyond what straight math suggests. They don't just affect gameplay, they interfere with it.
With that said, the Techjumper is just about the worst possible choice for a suicide guy there is. But if you have low expectations, commensurate with a 60 pt cost, and no other Force Org options beyond Elite, then a Techjumper certainly could outperform other options.
sourclams wrote:Tri, the point isn't that the pure math says its effective -- it doesn't.
The point is that your opponent can't really afford to ignore it, especially if you've got a fair amount of DS assets like 2x Lance Libbies and 2x Jump Priest.
they might be a problem but and i may protect against them. The tech priest .... I'd look at him and ask why you've spent 60pts.
With that said, the Techjumper is just about the worst possible choice for a suicide guy there is. But if you have low expectations, commensurate with a 60 pt cost, and no other Force Org options beyond Elite, then a Techjumper certainly could outperform other options.
Ok straight question would you take a 60pts TP or look at your list and spend it on units you all ready had.
I personally can’t think of any time that I would choose to have 20% odds on an AV14 ... those odds are 6/35 of him making his points back.
Commander Endova wrote:Can't we just agree, that like 90% of other units in this game, that DooDoo's Techjumper may be situationally useful?
ive been saying that yes it works, just not as effectively as other units and so i would say to choose something else, but it does work. I just don't think well enough to be viable. but if i have 60 points and cant take many other options then i would consider it, but most likely would choose something else...
I have played BA since the old 3rd edtion codex, the godawful pdf BS they put out and the newest shiney we have now. My opinion on playing Mech, LR Spam, DOA, and Storm Toaster spam is that simply the tech bomb will maybe every 3rd or 4th game work for you, the rest you waste 60 points for nothing. Even when it works yeah you paid for yourself, then died. But in an all comers list this is not a smart investment. Footguard, green tide, nids, Dark Eldar, Eldar, foot marines of any style, and this is now a useless unit. Yeah you can come down and pop a land raider. I'm playing my BA against you I laugh, because I have no vehicles except drop pods. Nids and daemons have 1 vehicle between them total, and everything against any good player will be given cover or invul saves.
7 Assault Squad @ 225 pts (Meltagun; Meltagun)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)
1 Scout Squad @ 90 pts (Scout with Combat Blade)
4 Scout with Combat Blade
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)
1 Scout Squad @ 90 pts (Scout with Combat Blade)
4 Scout with Combat Blade
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)
1 Sanguinary Priest @ 245 pts (Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour; Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour)
1 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour (Power Sword)
2 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour (Jump Pack; Power Sword)
take both tech out, put in 2 multi-melta land speeders for the same amount and you do the exact same job, with more options, hell I think you can get a heavy flamer in their as well. More speed, better range, more weapons. More options and consistancy. An ork horde list will look at this and cheer, no armour to open, a bunch of one shot guns, hell yeah. Guard horde same, and he will have tanks bubble wrapped getting a 4 plus armour save. Land raider lists you might get lucky, you might not. Nids this won't really touch. Daemons will eat you. Hell a necron with 2 monoliths will absolutly shred that much walking infantry. Alpha strike dark eldar will shred half your list on his turn 1. This is a tailored list for mech, which may not do much if you get templated to death. Again the techpriest is missing a major ability, he can't fix a vehicle if you have none, and there is something else in the codex, that you have room for that can do this job better.
DooDoo wrote:1 Sanguinary Priest @ 245 pts (Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour; Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour)
1 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour (Power Sword)
2 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour (Jump Pack; Power Sword)
yeah.. i mena you just showed you are using 150 points for two models that kinda just hope to get a shoot, and will die before they can use their power weapons....
again as people said a dred, two land speeders, or even just a barely armed honor guard would be better
Xenith wrote:...he gets one melta shot. Statistically, you need at least 3 to stand an average chance of killing a tank.
For 10pts less I can get a mm attack bike.
Unless you have Vulkan, which you can't have. The Techmarine is, unfortunately, a really bad choice in all the SM codices except SW since you can put him on a Thunerwolf but I digress. Even in the best situation, you do hit, pen, and destroy a tank with the techmarine he will die next turn and you'll be 1 kp for 1kp with the techmarine. 2+_+ is not any good especially if you're alone and out of a unit. Want to use him? Put him in a unit. The better Elite choice for C:BA is definitely Sanguinary Priests.
Wait a minute. why the hell would you put techmarines in an army list that has NO DREADS OR TANKS?
You've already made your techs useless, and then you go and give all your Assaults meltas and make him even more redundant.
Face it. Techmarines in the role you have outlined are a complete waste of points and free kill points for your opponent.
7 Assault Squad @ 225 pts (Meltagun; Meltagun)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)
1 Scout Squad @ 90 pts (Scout with Combat Blade)
4 Scout with Combat Blade
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)
1 Scout Squad @ 90 pts (Scout with Combat Blade)
4 Scout with Combat Blade
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)
1 Sanguinary Priest @ 245 pts (Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour; Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour)
1 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour (Power Sword)
2 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour (Jump Pack; Power Sword)
7 Assault Squad @ 225 pts (Meltagun; Meltagun)
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
1 Assault Marine with Meltagun
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)
1 Scout Squad @ 90 pts (Scout with Combat Blade)
4 Scout with Combat Blade
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)
1 Scout Squad @ 90 pts (Scout with Combat Blade)
4 Scout with Combat Blade
1 Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)
1 Sanguinary Priest @ 245 pts (Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour; Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour)
1 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour (Power Sword)
2 Sanguinary Priest in Power Armour (Jump Pack; Power Sword)
i might WORK, but it certaintly isn't as efficient as it could be.
The Techpriests are just fat. if you really want to run them they won't hurt you except for objective missions, where they will at worst give your opponent an automatic 2 point lead and at best will just break even for you.
Why handicap yourself in 1/3 of all games and just be a little annoying. 1 failed armor save is all it takes for him to go down.
Hmmm. This doesn't work. Those Assault Squads won't stand up to the big boys (Terminators, Ork Nobz, Anything with weapons that ignore Armor Saves in CC, is going to eat this list up) And God help you if your opponent outflanks, tying up your Dev squads.) Lash Prince could easily make this list a joke.
Typically, everything but the tech marines will start on the board. I chose tech marines over speeders because they are likely to come in earlier and with a power weapon, they cannot be ignored.
2 units in my backfield with a bolter, I can ignore that
or kill with little effort, hell rapid fireing guardsmen can kill it in a round, devs starting off the board is bad, plaing Dawn of War one thing but you are losing a round of shooting every times, maybe two or three before you get into posistion.
I would go out onto a limb and say that the reason that no one is agreeing with this tech priest thing is that it is a one shot deal that needs to get lucky to work, and in some games puts you behind. Add in the inability to grab a decent invul to stop ap 2 or 1 and its just not a great option compare to other things in the codex. If you want to use it be our guest no one is telling you what you can and can't play. However in competitive army lists this guy will not be going in. I need my elite slots for other things.
DooDoo wrote:Typically, everything but the tech marines will start on the board. I chose tech marines over speeders because they are likely to come in earlier and with a power weapon, they cannot be ignored.
How will he come in earlier then any other DS model?
Kill those dev squads, and the techmarines, and get yourself a squadron of autolas preds. That gives you plenty of long-range AT on a much tougher hull. If you still feel like you're losing out on crowd control from those missile launchers, you can use the remaining 135 or so points on land speeders with twin heavy bolters or flamers, but honestly, with that many assault marines, crowd control seems like the last of your worries.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On second thought, if you take out the devs and techmarine, I believe you would then be able to field a full complement of melta/flamer speeders. Once again, if swarms scare you, then swap a few out for heavy bolters and you're golden.
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I'm not a fan of partial DoA builds
The Dev squads will get lit up quick, as thats all there is gonna be to shoot at more than not
NTM the techmarine sillyness lol
You dont understand how to play a list like this do you?
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I'm not a fan of partial DoA builds
The Dev squads will get lit up quick, as thats all there is gonna be to shoot at more than not
NTM the techmarine sillyness lol
You dont understand how to play a list like this do you?
Correction, I wouldn't play a list such as this.
I find it lacking in many points, some of which I stressed.
I give you a 8/10 on creativeness, but a 3/10 in actual use
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I'm not a fan of partial DoA builds
The Dev squads will get lit up quick, as thats all there is gonna be to shoot at more than not
NTM the techmarine sillyness lol
You dont understand how to play a list like this do you?
Why is your response when someone says this won't work "You obviously don't know how to use this list"(paraphrased)?
it's very insulting, especially to people who have been playing along time and, most of the time, know what they are talking about.
the List has several obvious flaws.
the Devs and Scouts will be starting on the table. this will expose them to 1 full turn of the enemies wrath before your Assault squads and Techmarine show up. an Alpha strike list will just wreck your list in 1 round of shooting/first turn assaults and then wait patiently for your Assault squads to show up.
A shooty list will be protected against your Deep Strikes via Bubble wrapping and turtling.
we know your Sergeant is the one who has the LC and Melta bombs and he has a pistol as standard armament. obviously you would trade your CCW for the LC.
I would believe that you had played the game for a long time if you knew the rules (which in this thread you have demonstrated that you do not) and you understood how the list works. The list is designed to start everything on the table except for the tech marines. If you think that you can kill that many marines with cover saves and fnp and a round of shooting, you must be playing a different game than me.
doubled wrote:I would go out onto a limb and say that the reason that no one is agreeing with this tech priest thing is that it is a one shot deal that needs to get lucky to work, and in some games puts you behind. Add in the inability to grab a decent invul to stop ap 2 or 1 and its just not a great option compare to other things in the codex. If you want to use it be our guest no one is telling you what you can and can't play. However in competitive army lists this guy will not be going in. I need my elite slots for other things.
another very good point!
I think the issue here is that the OP is trying to say that it CAN work, thou is arguing that that makes it viable.
there is a HUGE difference between what works and what is viable. the techmarine Can Work, but is not viable due to the points listed by Doubled.
Automatically Appended Next Post: this is getting heated.
and just due to GT making a few rule mistakes does not mean that he doesn't know how to play... either way he is not the only one saying your plan doesn't work effectively. A great many people say this, and i dont thnk it makes sense to say they all haven't played long... I've played for years and the mistakes in your lists are very easy to detect and many people have been able to notice them.
I wouldn't say your list is awful if you don't deep striek the assault marines (if you do, please say goodbye to your scouts and devs against a tortie or semi well grounded list), but if def could have options which work much better such as land speeders, preds, and just not using things such as techpriests as one time deaad before theland hope to get a melta shot units.
if you want them in your list, have on e not two! maybe you can hand off 1 Kp, but handing away 2 is a bit muhc
DooDoo wrote:I would believe that you had played the game for a long time if you knew the rules (which in this thread you have demonstrated that you do not)
Everyone makes mistake occasionally. This game has a ton of rules. Believing that someone doesn't know how to play the game because of a minor quotation error is a non sequitor.
DooDoo wrote:The list is designed to start everything on the table except for the tech marines. If you think that you can kill that many marines with cover saves and fnp and a round of shooting, you must be playing a different game than me.
If the marines have cover saves, then you're doing something wrong, because cover is deadly to jump infantry. On average, if your assault squads spend even one turn jumping through cover, moving the minimum number of models in each squad into cover to gain the save, you're going to lose about two marines from each squad from difficult terrain alone before you make contact.
A well-built guard army at 2,000 points actually can and will inflict enough damage to scratch the remaining 32 marines down to manageable size. I've taken out bugs in a forest at that size with such a list, and believe you me, they're gonna have a ton more wounds than your jet horde will. Even with FNP and a cover save, a direct hit by a Russ will take out about 3/2 models on average, especially with the number on the board you'd have, not to mention the negligible-individually-but-powerful-in-squadrons heavy bolters poking out of those tanks. Executioners would just have a field day.
The more pressing issue is that with no AT in range at this point other than missile launchers (s8), a you're going to have to weather the entirety of a Leman Russ squadron or two. Most guard armies would even ignore the missile launchers and focus fire on your horde, just to whittle them down to "too small to be useful" once they connect. You're going to have two meltagun shots before you connect, which in all likelyhood just isn't enough, especially when you might have to suffer two rounds of fire before you can assault. At the very least jumping in, while risky, can save you from the problem of your enemy going first.
that isn't even to mention a Khan army list Sm where everything outflanks, then just tears through everything, knocking out all that nice ml and scouts in the back, your techmeltas are useless since any armor is going to be mostly, if not only, land speeders, maybe one land raider which you don't need the extra melta for.
Or what if you play my WIP guard army (when its done of course ) that has no tanks, you are going to have to deal with massive blob squads as well as outflanking blob squads with enough power weapons and plasma to eat through anything you have, and enough men to take a beating.
Your list isn't too prepared for these lists which are quite common in my gaming group, def the khan list. you would have wasted 120 points on two techpriests whith meltas that would be worse than a bolter against blob squads, and those missile launchers may get a bit of shooting butwill get knocked out by the outflankers.
The khan list is the same way. You seem to be assuming your enemy will have these things:
1-Little ap2 weapons to knock out fnp, which wont be happening when playing guard or many sm armies
2-no outflankers, or deep strikers that will mess up your entire backlines
3-masssive amounts of tanks which make your melta assault squads and these suicide melta units viable.
You could do much better with units that are able to handle many threats rather than just one.
And never mind the Green horde or Kan wall where every vehicle gets a 4+ save, and you eat outflanking koptas. As for your FNP and armour, 80 some attacks then a power klaw. How about nids, 2 mawloc list literally takes you apart piece by piece, as well as ymrgal genestealers apperaing in the same terrain you got your rockets in.
DooDoo wrote:I would believe that you had played the game for a long time if you knew the rules (which in this thread you have demonstrated that you do not)
Everyone makes mistake occasionally. This game has a ton of rules. Believing that someone doesn't know how to play the game because of a minor quotation error is a non sequitor.
DooDoo wrote:The list is designed to start everything on the table except for the tech marines. If you think that you can kill that many marines with cover saves and fnp and a round of shooting, you must be playing a different game than me.
If the marines have cover saves, then you're doing something wrong, because cover is deadly to jump infantry. On average, if your assault squads spend even one turn jumping through cover, moving the minimum number of models in each squad into cover to gain the save, you're going to lose about two marines from each squad from difficult terrain alone before you make contact.
A well-built guard army at 2,000 points actually can and will inflict enough damage to scratch the remaining 32 marines down to manageable size. I've taken out bugs in a forest at that size with such a list, and believe you me, they're gonna have a ton more wounds than your jet horde will. Even with FNP and a cover save, a direct hit by a Russ will take out about 3/2 models on average, especially with the number on the board you'd have, not to mention the negligible-individually-but-powerful-in-squadrons heavy bolters poking out of those tanks. Executioners would just have a field day.
The more pressing issue is that with no AT in range at this point other than missile launchers (s8), a you're going to have to weather the entirety of a Leman Russ squadron or two. Most guard armies would even ignore the missile launchers and focus fire on your horde, just to whittle them down to "too small to be useful" once they connect. You're going to have two meltagun shots before you connect, which in all likelyhood just isn't enough, especially when you might have to suffer two rounds of fire before you can assault. At the very least jumping in, while risky, can save you from the problem of your enemy going first.
On the topic of cover
BA can get a 5+ cover from a librarian
BA can get a 4+ cover from friendly (or enemy) squads
Scout bikes can provide a 4+ cover for the rest of the army while enjoying a 3+ turbo boost and 4+ FNP themselves.
I run BA a lot different than DooDoo, primarily in that I would never make an all comers list without scout bikes. Against IG when starting on the table everything would be behind the scout bikes after their turbo boost, and a single scout bike would be conga lined back to both a priest and librarian for a 3+ turbo boost 4+ FNP 5+ shield of sanguinius cover save (in case hydras get froggy it's still 5+ cover 4+FNP) My list does well at not getting blown off the table by a gunline.
I run a DOA/outflank list where everything can doa our outflank (but doesn't have to thanks to scout bike screens), so I don't have first hand experience running a lot of ML with BA, but I always run a quad missile havoc squad (nowhere near as good as BAdev squads) so I see BAdev squads as a viable option especially against IG. While they are pretty useless against a Leman Puff as a DOA player Vendettas are a far greater problem in my book. The 3 lascannons don't scare me, but the last thing I want to do is chase down fast scimmers with jump infantry. Quad ML are perfect for popping Vendettas, Artillery like Manticores/Basssies, and Chimera.
What I don't agree with is an all infantry list with dev squads not including scout bikes, and the kamakazie tech marine within an all infantry list. The #1 problem I have with the techmarine in DooDoo's list is the guy has open fast attack slots, and a MM scout bike costs just as much as the Tech Marine. An attack bike would have cover from friendly marines, FNP from a priest, and would get into MM range very quickly. It would also have the added benefit of being able to shoot every turn that it is alive rather than being a 1 shot wonder with a combi weapon.
I'm a bit confused as to how you get your Scout Bikers FnP at the same time that they provide your entire army a cover save. How big is the squad? Otherwise your whole army would be deploying in a column formation...I'm just a bit confused as to how that would work on the table.
On the subject of out flankers, why is it hard to deploy in the middle of the board so that you can't be charged on the turn they come on? On the subject of cover, if you can't get cover on your infantry most of the time, you are doing something wrong
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the subject of out flankers, why is it hard to deploy in the middle of the board so that you can't be charged on the turn they come on? On the subject of cover, if you can't get cover on your infantry most of the time, you are doing something wrong
You can deploy in the middle of the board, oh wait... white scar bikers can travel half the board with an assault...it wont matter where you are too much, they can get you.
Yes true with the cover, you should be able to get it, but your list just relies on the fact that you will face lists that are built somewhat like yours: with a bunch of everything staying on the board coming towards you. You have nothing which can deal with outflankers, nothing that can deal with ork hoards, nothing that can deal with armies without tanks...
and yet you still waste these points on a techpriest which can do something but isnt really viable...
@schadenfreude: Your list sounds interesting, I like the idea of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: i have been thinking of using scouts bikes with the teleport beacon, how well do they work?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DooDoo wrote:On the subject of out flankers, why is it hard to deploy in the middle of the board so that you can't be charged on the turn they come on? On the subject of cover, if you can't get cover on your infantry most of the time, you are doing something wrong
also to mimic you
On the subject of your "Gem of the BA Elite Slot", why is it hard for you to realize why it is not an amazing option, and why, though it may work, there are better choices out there?
Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I'm a bit confused as to how you get your Scout Bikers FnP at the same time that they provide your entire army a cover save. How big is the squad? Otherwise your whole army would be deploying in a column formation...I'm just a bit confused as to how that would work on the table.
L. Wrex
I go with a full 10 man, but that's because I like having the option to combat squad them if I chose to outflank with the bikers. Bikes have a 3"base +2" unit coherency so if the bikes move into a conga line after the turbo boost 10 bikes can stretch out over 48" of board, or 5 bikes can stretch out over 23" of board. It's very easy to cover save the entire BA army with a single unit of scout bikes for cover and have a couple scout bikes left over to stretch the squad towards a gunline so that it can charge.
The only difficult part is deployment before the turbo boost, you have to eyeball that they will be in the right place after the turbo boost and the unit has to move 18" to get the cover save. Enemy units might try to disrupt the turbo boost of the scout bikes with their own fast scouting units like deffkoptas of vendettas, but scout bikes do have an upper hand in that they infiltrate and then scout, so a well placed infiltrate can help ensure the other side's scout moves won't disrupt your own.
What can I say that hasn't been all ready said. TP with a jump pack has 20% odds at killing AV14. If your list has empty Fast attack slots then there are many reasonably priced things there that do the job better (note LS's and AB's do not have to DS they can move 24" and have a Multi-Melta).
Other (elite) options are drop pod Dreads these also have meltas they arrive turn 1 and they can be place next to the target without much chance of scatter. Removal of an AV 13 walker is also rather tricky. Pod and Dread break in at 160pts
Also for a little more then your tech priests (including the base unit) you could take 10 Assault Marines and DS with 5 and 2 meltas 110pts ... the other 5 could land else where and cause trouble; I'd give the sergeant a PFist (125pts + 110pts total cost 235pts). Best of all unlike the Techpriest those Assault marines aren't one shot, If the enemy doesn't kill them off you can hunt the next vehicle.
Tri wrote:What can I say that hasn't been all ready said. TP with a jump pack has 20% odds at killing AV14. If your list has empty Fast attack slots then there are many reasonably priced things there that do the job better (note LS's and AB's do not have to DS they can move 24" and have a Multi-Melta).
Other (elite) options are drop pod Dreads these also have meltas they arrive turn 1 and they can be place next to the target without much chance of scatter. Removal of an AV 13 walker is also rather tricky. Pod and Dread break in at 160pts
Also for a little more then your tech priests (including the base unit) you could take 10 Assault Marines and DS with 5 and 2 meltas 110pts ... the other 5 could land else where and cause trouble; I'd give the sergeant a PFist (125pts + 110pts total cost 235pts). Best of all unlike the Techpriest those Assault marines aren't one shot, If the enemy doesn't kill them off you can hunt the next vehicle.
An all infantry list often has 30-50 assault marines with 6-10 melta guns, so there is no shortage of squads that they can cs to get 2 meltas in a 5 man deep strike unit.
In my DoA list I have 30-40 assault marines with 6-8 meltaguns, along with dante, libbie, honorguard and vanguard and it works pretty well. it is mostly for fun but i think it can be a good list, still need to work on it, but i find i usually have enough to deal with tanks without needing any dropping techmarines...
On the subject of your "Gem of the BA Elite Slot", why is it hard for you to realize why it is not an amazing option, and why, though it may work, there are better choices out there?
He obviously doesn't know how to play Blood Angels, hasn't played very long, or doesn't know the rules at all.
DooDoo wrote:On the subject of cover, if you can't get cover on your infantry most of the time, you are doing something wrong
So how do you? If you use forests, you crash into the trees (i.e. dangerous terrain tests eat jump infantry alive on a good day). If you're using units in your own army, you're effectively either splitting your assaults over two turns (hitting your opponent with half a hammer), or reducing your range by splitting into groups laterally before the final assault, which at the very least costs you a round of your admittedly not very impressive shooting, but can also reduce the range of your assault.
he canhide around terrain, that seems to work well for jump inf. and tanks. but it isnt a perfect situation, usually it fails against fast units which can always just zip around so the cover is negated.
On the subject of your "Gem of the BA Elite Slot", why is it hard for you to realize why it is not an amazing option, and why, though it may work, there are better choices out there?
He obviously doesn't know how to play Blood Angels, hasn't played very long, or doesn't know the rules at all.
I also came across this on YTTH the one time I visited there. I thought it was an interesting idea at best, but not something I would ever want to try.
I would agree that the Tech Marine is probably the most overlooked Elite choice for BA, but with good reason given that half of all BA units are in the Elite section and only 3 slots to give away. One of those is usually going to be a Sanguinary Priest because of 3 for 1 and FNP bubble. He is the real 'gem' of the BA Elite slots. Then you have Furioso Dreadnoughts, Assault Termies, Sternguard, Chaplains and Sanguinary Guard all competing for the last two slots. You would need to have a pretty irregular kind of BA list not to have already filled-out your slots with the above, before you even looked at the Tech Marine. Not that there is anything wrong with the Tech Marine, it's just there is an awful lot of hard hitting competition for that slot. Even in a Mech or Dread heavy list, Tech Marine still wouldn't be an obvious choice.
When we talk about the Tech Marine bomb. It is about the cheapest way to Deep Strike a Combi-Melta, but 60 points is still a bit expensive for a one shot suicide unit, doubly so when it means burning an Elite slot. I wouldn't want to waste more points by giving him a Power Weapon, even if your opponent does like Stelek suggested and ignores him after his shot, he's still going to be a bit useless.
If you really expect the Tech Marine to survive then why not pay 25 points more and do the same thing with a Sanguinary Priest and get an extra attack, Furious Charge and FNP, without burning a whole Elite slot? Not to mention throwing down FNP bubbles and force multiplying the rest of your army. That would seem to be an equally good deal and have much better synergy with a BA force.
The only time I might consider a Tech Marine Bomb is if I had 2x Furioso Librarians with Wings of Sanguinius, and some Honour Guard. Then I might consider taking a Tech Marine with a Jump Pack to support the Dreads (primarily), and I might well give him a Combi-Melta. That way even if his shot fails he can bounce off and try to repair a Dread, which would be money well spent. But in an all assault marine force the Tech Marine just doesn't fit.
I don't think a BA tank list or jump list has any shortage of elites slots.
Jump lists have priests as a 3 for 1, sanguinary guards, chaplains, and tech priests as their only only jumping options in the elites slots. After 3 priests and a sanguinary guard that's plenty of room to blow on a tech priest or chaplain, but let's face some basic facts. Chaplains are unpopular because their HQ versions are so much better, and a tech priest with a combi melta is just plain silly in an all jump list because it's loaded with DOA melta units.
Now in a mechanized list with a ton of preds and/or vindicators + razorbacks I could definitely see the use for a techmarine. A heavy tank list has no shortage of elite slots as 6 tanks and 6 TLAC razorbacks will quickly cause the list to run out of points before the player can even contemplate a flying fuiroso dread. Now let's ask what would happen if we added a techmarine to a tank list.
A 65 point techmarine with a power weapon is a decent CC character for his points, and as long as the servo harness remains on he can embark in a transport as adding a jump pack means he can only embark in a blood talon. If he joins a unit and is next to the priest in CC he will be very safe as all the shots will be aimed at the priest as any shots aimed at the tech priest is good news. Most of all the techpriest's greatest possible use would be to act as a DunDunDun......tech priest. A list with a lot of tanks especially vindicators is likely to have tanks that only have 1 gun get their 1 gun destroyed. The tech priest can detach and move 6" towards a damaged tank while the tank flat outs 18" to the techpriest. Being able to fix a broken main gun on a Vindicator, Razorback, or Baal pred would pay for the tech priest. Since so many BA vehicles only have 1 gun I'm surprised so few Ba tank players take a techpriest, especially at the 2,500 point level.
schadenfreude wrote:he can only embark in a blood talon.
Im guessing you mean stormraven?
schadenfreude wrote: If he joins a unit and is next to the priest in CC he will be very safe as all the shots will be aimed at the priest as any shots aimed at the tech priest is good news. Most of all the techpriest's greatest possible use would be to act as a DunDunDun......tech priest. A list with a lot of tanks especially vindicators is likely to have tanks that only have 1 gun get their 1 gun destroyed. The tech priest can detach and move 6" towards a damaged tank while the tank flat outs 18" to the techpriest. Being able to fix a broken main gun on a Vindicator, Razorback, or Baal pred would pay for the tech priest. Since so many BA vehicles only have 1 gun I'm surprised so few Ba tank players take a techpriest, especially at the 2,500 point level.
BA Techmarine only fixes on a 4(5+?) + with servo harness you need servitors to boost this, and IIRCBA Techmarines are not IC's but then can have a group of servitors (no point to having jump packs with servitors as they are the slowest model), servitors boost their chance to fix by +1 each and because Techamrines are not IC's they can not be singled out in the unit.
EDIT: I forget what initiative servitors have but do you always need to use a PF attack? or can you lose the higher strength attack to hit with a regular attack at their base initiative?
Becasue while popping out and hitting a vehicle with 7 PF attacks is fun, versus regular units it would kind of suck
Gibbsey wrote: EDIT: I forget what initiative servitors have but do you always need to use a PF attack? or can you lose the higher strength attack to hit with a regular attack at their base initiative? Becasue while popping out and hitting a vehicle with 7 PF attacks is fun, versus regular units it would kind of suck
This adds nothing to the thread but to answer your questions ...
Servitors and Techmarines get a bonus attack (If he takes a full harness 2 attacks) these happen at strength 8 initiative 1, in addition to the models other attack. A model cannot choose not to use this bonus attack.
Gibbsey wrote:
EDIT: I forget what initiative servitors have but do you always need to use a PF attack? or can you lose the higher strength attack to hit with a regular attack at their base initiative?
Becasue while popping out and hitting a vehicle with 7 PF attacks is fun, versus regular units it would kind of suck
This adds nothing to the thread but to answer your questions ...
Servitors and Techmarines get a bonus attack (If he takes a full harness 2 attacks) these happen at strength 8 initiative 1, in addition to the models other attack. A model cannot choose not to use this bonus attack.
I wasnt sure if the attacks were the same for the servitors aswell and it does show that techmarines with servitors have alot of attacks so they can be valuble as an elite slot (i think servitors are Initiative 3)
schadenfreude wrote:he can only embark in a blood talon.
Im guessing you mean stormraven?
schadenfreude wrote: If he joins a unit and is next to the priest in CC he will be very safe as all the shots will be aimed at the priest as any shots aimed at the tech priest is good news. Most of all the techpriest's greatest possible use would be to act as a DunDunDun......tech priest. A list with a lot of tanks especially vindicators is likely to have tanks that only have 1 gun get their 1 gun destroyed. The tech priest can detach and move 6" towards a damaged tank while the tank flat outs 18" to the techpriest. Being able to fix a broken main gun on a Vindicator, Razorback, or Baal pred would pay for the tech priest. Since so many BA vehicles only have 1 gun I'm surprised so few Ba tank players take a techpriest, especially at the 2,500 point level.
BA Techmarine only fixes on a 4(5+?) + with servo harness you need servitors to boost this, and IIRCBA Techmarines are not IC's but then can have a group of servitors (no point to having jump packs with servitors as they are the slowest model), servitors boost their chance to fix by +1 each and because Techamrines are not IC's they can not be singled out in the unit.
EDIT: I forget what initiative servitors have but do you always need to use a PF attack? or can you lose the higher strength attack to hit with a regular attack at their base initiative?
Becasue while popping out and hitting a vehicle with 7 PF attacks is fun, versus regular units it would kind of suck
They are not exactly power fist attacks, they are +1 attack at S8 no armor save so no charge bonuses of any kind.
Hmmm odd they don't have IC, so I guess he would have to go with servitors. That would slow him down a bit, but when I said include him I was saying that with a 4+ no servitor repair roll. With servitors it will be a 2+, and the unit is a lot less fragile that it would be in a vanilla list due to FNP on the TM and servitors.
when this thread first came up I thought "another weird idea thread that wont last a week." it's longevity is really surprising. techmarines suck. moving on....
AbaddonFidelis wrote:when this thread first came up I thought "another weird idea thread that wont last a week." it's longevity is really surprising. techmarines suck. moving on....
AbaddonFidelis wrote:when this thread first came up I thought "another weird idea thread that wont last a week." it's longevity is really surprising. techmarines suck. moving on....
Sad thing is they wouldent suck as much if they had IC
And so its 4+ with servo harness -1 for each servitor, so with 3 servitors its an auto pass
Looking through this thread, it seems like there are a lot of negative reactions to this idea but none are based on actual experience. I have tried this idea and found it to be helpful. I would respect your criticism more if it were based on experience rather than what you think would happen. Also, comparisons like "your 60 pt techmarine will not kills as much as my 10 man sternguard combi melta squad in a drop pod" are pretty inapposite and hilarious.
DooDoo wrote:Looking through this thread, it seems like there are a lot of negative reactions to this idea but none are based on actual experience. I have tried this idea and found it to be helpful. I would respect your criticism more if it were based on experience rather than what you think would happen. Also, comparisons like "your 60 pt techmarine will not kills as much as my 10 man sternguard combi melta squad in a drop pod" are pretty inapposite and hilarious.
Everyone's reaction was that a 60pt 1 shot melta suicide unit was not worth it, can you agree that is a little expensive for a unit that most times will only get 1 shot and then die?
DooDoo wrote:Looking through this thread, it seems like there are a lot of negative reactions to this idea but none are based on actual experience. I have tried this idea and found it to be helpful. I would respect your criticism more if it were based on experience rather than what you think would happen. Also, comparisons like "your 60 pt techmarine will not kills as much as my 10 man sternguard combi melta squad in a drop pod" are pretty inapposite and hilarious.
Everyone's reaction was that a 60pt 1 shot melta suicide unit was not worth it, can you agree that is a little expensive for a unit that most times will only get 1 shot and then die?
I can actually find situational use for such a unit in a Pred/Vindie/Razorback spam list. Don't throw out generalizations like "everyone".
... I'm unsure why you keep backing him sour but you are welcome to your opinion and i could just see it working in the list you have described.
The problem is that DooDoo suggests adding this in every type of is including a non-mech lists which have lots of Jump pack meltas already. In which case the LS is much better option (Attack bike if that's your thing).
It just doesn't work well enough, I see no reason to try it, again it does get one melta shot, but in my all JP army it is near useless, i have enough melta with just assault marines... I don't need it. But I could see it being useful in a mech army if it isn't being used as a suicide unit but used to fix tanks, then it sounds very useful and underrated.
but as a suicide melta, no, no no, there are many other better choices for around the same cost that doesn't use up my elites which i need for sang priests, termies, sternguard, dreds, libbie dreds with blood lance, or any of the other more effective goodies in there.
you keep saying we don't see how good it is since we haven't tried it, but can't you see at least some of the arguments against it? I'm not asking you to conform, but please stop saying we don't know what we are talking because we haven't played the game long enough, or don't understand the BA codex, or haven't tried it. We are all working from our own knowledge of the game to explain why we feel it isn't very viable, and many people here have great points.
techpriests are good, but not the way you are using it.
Sageheart wrote:It just doesn't work well enough, I see no reason to try it, again it does get one melta shot, but in my all JP army it is near useless, i have enough melta with just assault marines... I don't need it. But I could see it being useful in a mech army if it isn't being used as a suicide unit but used to fix tanks, then it sounds very useful and underrated.
but as a suicide melta, no, no no, there are many other better choices for around the same cost that doesn't use up my elites which i need for sang priests, termies, sternguard, dreds, libbie dreds with blood lance, or any of the other more effective goodies in there.
you keep saying we don't see how good it is since we haven't tried it, but can't you see at least some of the arguments against it? I'm not asking you to conform, but please stop saying we don't know what we are talking because we haven't played the game long enough, or don't understand the BA codex, or haven't tried it. We are all working from our own knowledge of the game to explain why we feel it isn't very viable, and many people here have great points.
techpriests are good, but not the way you are using it.
Even in the mech unit suicide dropping it isnt that good unless you can bring in your army close quickly, at least then they have to choose to waste shots on the techmarine but even then they will probebly shoot it with something that cant hit your mech anyway.
At least if you give him servo harness and some servitors he can hide in the unit and has some firepower
DooDoo wrote:Looking through this thread, it seems like there are a lot of negative reactions to this idea but none are based on actual experience. I have tried this idea and found it to be helpful. I would respect your criticism more if it were based on experience rather than what you think would happen. Also, comparisons like "your 60 pt techmarine will not kills as much as my 10 man sternguard combi melta squad in a drop pod" are pretty inapposite and hilarious.
My guess is that your expierience is based on a few shots and scatters that got lucky.
we arn't saying it WONT work, we are saying that it is highly unlikely to work.
we also don't need to have done exactly what you are proposing to weigh our opinions. we just need to combine what we know about Deepstriking, combi-meltas, and Techpriests. and the things i didn't know about DoA, but now do doesn't make the idea any more viable. it just makes it more likely for him to come in early and be in melta range.
BAs also don't need suicide melta, especially not one that sucks an Elite slot dry. the better option if you really needed to drop a single model with a combi-melta would be to do what was suggested earlier and do this with a Sanguinary Priest. at least he can share the Slot with 3 other priests.
Armies that use Suicide melta usually do it because they either don't have a reliable way to spam Melta OR their melta just isn't fast enough. BA have neither of these problems as Assault squads(troops, so you can take alot of them) can take up to 2 Melta guns and they move 12" a turn(Fast) either with Packs or in a Rhino.
Techmarines aren't used with Vanilla marines much as they suck up an Elite slot there too. and they are only competing with Terminators, Dreds and Sternguard.
if i was running a Predator heavy BA list then i MIGHT take a Techmarine, but he would have Servitors and would fix my Tanks rather then running off to annoy an enemy tank and then die.
and the example of "your 60 pt techmarine will not kills as much as my 10 man sternguard combi melta squad in a drop pod" is very relevent. it is actually likely to kill something when it comes in, can split and fire at 2 targets, can't be ignored after it does, it isn't likely to die right away, and is a threat after it has used all the combi-meltas.
DooDoo wrote:Looking through this thread, it seems like there are a lot of negative reactions to this idea but none are based on actual experience. I have tried this idea and found it to be helpful. I would respect your criticism more if it were based on experience rather than what you think would happen. Also, comparisons like "your 60 pt techmarine will not kills as much as my 10 man sternguard combi melta squad in a drop pod" are pretty inapposite and hilarious.
Some of us don't need to try a bad idea to figure out that it's a bad idea. No matter how many times something happens to work for you, that doesn't change the fact that its chances of working are small. If you work out the chance that you'll score that odd kill on a tank in optimal conditions, compared to the cost (60 points) and other drawbacks (losing an elites slot), it simply isn't worth it in the long run.
By the way, for those of you who are dropping the nebulous "it isn't likely to work" argument, here's the math:
Your optimal chances of killing a vehicle, and by optimal I mean here that you assume that a) you land within 6", b) you land in front of a facing with AV 10, are (2/3)*((1/36)*(1/6)+(35/36)*(1/2)), or a little less than one third. This drops to (2/3)*((1/6)*(1/6)+(2/3)*(1/2)), or just worse than one fourth, if you land outside of 2d6 pen range, and all this is assuming a) you don't crash into the vehicle in question, b) you always manage to land within its AV 10 face, and c) there's nothing else around (troops or terrain) that could cause a mishap, all assumptions that favor your argument that this guy is useful. Your chances of making that kill against a land raider with Av 14 on all faces (and this will be, once again, multiplied by the chance of not scattering into it or whatever else is around) are only (2/3)*((5/36)*(1/6)+(7/12)*(1/2)), or a little more than a fifth, if you land within 2d6AP range, or a minuscule (2/3)*(1/6)*(1/6), or about one fortieth, if you don't. As anyone who is willing to do a little math can see, even in the best possible circumstances, your chances of making that kill hardly justify the cost.
Here's the problem with endorsing an idea based on nothing other than your own personal experience: It can't be generalized to all possible circumstances. Thus, it has led us all (or at least me) to the conclusion that the only possible way this could have worked for you so effectively, barring cheating (of course), is pure, dumb luck. And basing your decisions on the assumption of extraordinary luck is a great way to lose games.
DooDoo wrote:Looking through this thread, it seems like there are a lot of negative reactions to this idea but none are based on actual experience. I have tried this idea and found it to be helpful. I would respect your criticism more if it were based on experience rather than what you think would happen. Also, comparisons like "your 60 pt techmarine will not kills as much as my 10 man sternguard combi melta squad in a drop pod" are pretty inapposite and hilarious.
Some of us don't need to try a bad idea to figure out that it's a bad idea. No matter how many times something happens to work for you, that doesn't change the fact that its chances of working are small. If you work out the chance that you'll score that odd kill on a tank in optimal conditions, compared to the cost (60 points) and other drawbacks (losing an elites slot), it simply isn't worth it in the long run.
By the way, for those of you who are dropping the nebulous "it isn't likely to work" argument, here's the math:
Your optimal chances of killing a vehicle, and by optimal I mean here that you assume that a) you land within 6", b) you land in front of a facing with AV 10, are (2/3)*((1/36)*(1/6)+(35/36)*(1/2)), or a little less than one third. This drops to (2/3)*((1/6)*(1/6)+(2/3)*(1/2)), or just worse than one fourth, if you land outside of 2d6 pen range, and all this is assuming a) you don't crash into the vehicle in question, b) you always manage to land within its AV 10 face, and c) there's nothing else around (troops or terrain) that could cause a mishap, all assumptions that favor your argument that this guy is useful. Your chances of making that kill against a land raider with Av 14 on all faces (and this will be, once again, multiplied by the chance of not scattering into it or whatever else is around) are only (2/3)*((5/36)*(1/6)+(7/12)*(1/2)), or a little more than a fifth, if you land within 2d6AP range, or a minuscule (2/3)*(1/6)*(1/6), or about one fortieth, if you don't. As anyone who is willing to do a little math can see, even in the best possible circumstances, your chances of making that kill hardly justify the cost.
Here's the problem with endorsing an idea based on nothing other than your own personal experience: It can't be generalized to all possible circumstances. Thus, it has led us all (or at least me) to the conclusion that the only possible way this could have worked for you so effectively, barring cheating (of course), is pure, dumb luck. And basing your decisions on the assumption of extraordinary luck is a great way to lose games.
