We're having a problem at the FLGS and it's my fault. I allowed one of the Guard players to use Imperial Armor. The result is such a massive spamming of high armor and shooting death, and it's leaving everyone, including myself, at such a loss on hos to reliably deal with it. The list he used yesterday at 1000pts;

HQ
Leman Russ Commander
-Slick Loader
-Extra Armor

Elites
Inquisitor
-Emperor's Tarot

Troops
Leman Russ
-Slick Loader
-Extra Armor

Leman Russ
-Slick Loader
-Extra Armor

Fast Attack
Vendetta
-3x Twin-Linked Lascannons
-Extra Armor

Vendetta
-3x Twin-Linked Lascannons
-Extra Armor

Vendetta
-3x Twin-Linked Lascannons
-Extra Armor


For the uninitiated, Slick Loader lets you fire the Ordnance weapon twice if you don't move. The Command Russ lets all tanks within 6" ignore Shaken results, so all the Russes ignore Stunned and Shaken. The Emperor's Tarot gives him +1 on the roll to go first unless he rolls doubles on two dice. One Space Marine player's been able to beat it with a bunch of meltas in Drop Pods.

What army do you play?

I myself am doing `Nids, but there's also a pair of Craftworld Eldar, and pair of Dark Eldar. He swaps out Vendettas for Hydras with Tank Hunters when going against the Eldar opponents.

^ this

in general, though, you beat this list with any actually well-rounded list. His list spends lots of points on toys and upgrades in order to be good against lists that spend lots of points on toys and upgrades. A balanced list shouldn't have too many problems with it.

If you want something more specific, take infantry. He has three splatcannons, and that's it. Hordes should eat this for absolute breakfast.

---

Ah, with nids? Start with 9 zoanthropes. ultra tankbusters+invul saves will make things hard on his vendettas. Continue with anything that has S4, as everything in that list has rear armor 10. For example, an S4 gaunt horde will have few problems glancing all of his vehicles to death.

A Metric-f**k-ton of infiltrating genestealers.
Or 3 broods of 3 Zoeys (Warp lance)
Or maybe 3 broods of 3 carnifexs (Cheap but with enough bio-majigs to kill tanks)
Other than that i'm not enough of an expert to be able to help anymore.
Though the DE and Eldar guys are gonna have a time of it unless they spam the fire prisms and Ravagers (Ravager is the one with all the Dark Lances yes?)

well, don't allow IA

drop pod lists will crush it,

he automatically loses any objective based missions since vehicles cant hold objectives.

space wolf scouts might do the job
Bikers, blood angels, DE, or other super fast armies that have good armor capabilities can do the job as well.

invest in some taller, line of sight blocking terrain that will force tactical movement instead of standing in one's deployment zone and just shooting.

most importantly
make sure you are playing ORD weapons correctly, units being fired up will often get cover saves that people don't think they will get because they want to use the ORD-Barrage rules

he automatically loses any objective based missions since vehicles cant hold objectives.

He can still table you for the win or contest all objectives.

MannyMcCoconut wrote:

he automatically loses any objective based missions since vehicles cant hold objectives.

He can still table you for the win or contest all objectives.

It's pretty hard to be tabled unless you are bad.

and contesting all objectives, isn't a win.

really though, a space wolf drop list with wolf scouts should turn him inside out.

Still reading, but I just want to point out he doesn't shoot three "Splat Cannons" a turn. He's allowed to fire each tank twice, so he's actually firing SIX of them a turn.

The Deldar and Eldar players could always turbo-boost to get out of LoS. You should have some terrain that can block a tank.

I am one of the DE players facing this list, on a turn I turbo boosted it wasnt much help. Str 8 auto cannons are still scary and so are chimeras.

my list was

Haemonculous with liquifier

3 5 man units of wracks with liquifiers in raiders

2 5 man scourge with 2 haywire blasters

3 ravagers

my opening salvo was horribly unlucky including hitting all 3 lances with one ravager and producing a 3 3 1 in my attempt to pen but that being said his return salvo with slick loaders and 4 str 8 auto cannon shots per hydra because they had tank hunter was bye bye army

Laosiamus wrote:I am one of the DE players facing this list, on a turn I turbo boosted it wasnt much help. Str 8 auto cannons are still scary and so are chimeras.

my list was

Haemonculous with liquifier

3 5 man units of wracks with liquifiers in raiders

2 5 man scourge with 2 haywire blasters

3 ravagers

my opening salvo was horribly unlucky including hitting all 3 lances with one ravager and producing a 3 3 1 in my attempt to pen but that being said his return salvo with slick loaders and 4 str 8 auto cannon shots per hydra because they had tank hunter was bye bye army

that was a different list, this one has neither tank hunting autocannons or chimera's

also, remember proper spacing.

large pie can be mitigated by the way you deploy and move your models.

Also, remember that casualties don't need to be taken so that at unit is still in coherency. Let him blow holes and use your movement phase to close ranks next turn.

... and outflankers. Those are good too.

Well Aduro, I heard about what happened from the offending players perspective.

You had two pieces of area terrain in which you did not put your gaunts or your objective. A 3+ cover save of gaunts would be hard for his list o get through (going to ground of course)

Instead the gaunts and objective were placed out in the open.

Several good comments above I'd like to add my support too, and a few other thoughts as well.

IA really isn't meant for competitive play as far as I'm concerned...more for fluff players playing friendly campaigns and such. The league is not quite as competitive as our regular tournaments, which is why aduro allowed IA, but it's still a bit frustrating, especially for the newer players.

Drop pods did beat him recently, and is the natural counter I was planning on taking with my Space Wolves in tournaments (as he runs a similar IG list normally). With no melta or plasma, he's really relying on a few tanks for MEQ. Wolf scouts, too, work wonders.

No one's playing SW in the league, though =)

Objective missions work well, as he has no scoring units.

LOS blocking terrain is pretty rare where we play. More would be appreciated from this DE player, certainly!

My DE came pretty close, losing a KP mission at 6 KPs to 5. Wyches with haywire grenades caught him off guard. As we move up in point level, I'm planning on adding a large beastmaster squad which may help as well.


I'd imagine Tyranids with spore pods could work, similar to drop marines.

The key is you can't outshoot at range, but he's slow and clumped together and vulnerable to assault. If you footslog into assault, he shoots you apart early. If you try to drive up to assault, he shoots your transports apart too quickly. Drop pods/spores let you drop tough, strong melee threats in his face that force him to move (and therefore lessen shooting) or stand and get auto-hit in the next turn. It's never a pretty fight, but it's the best chance an army has.

Grimaldi wrote: Drop pods/spores let you drop tough, strong melee threats in his face that force him to move (and therefore lessen shooting) or stand and get auto-hit in the next turn. It's never a pretty fight, but it's the best chance an army has.

really i think the best chance an army has is a 5 man squad of vanguard with meltas and meltabombs, it would probably blow half his army off the table the turn it deepstrikes

Yeah, it's kind of sad because other non-nid armies can handle this kind of cheese with ease. In the case of space marines, it's 60% of your forces spent on 2 squads of combi-melta sternguard that combat squad and literally blow his army off the field turn 1.

Likewise, it would be laughable against a priestly power blob army ("HOW many guardsmen do I need to kill before the eviscerator goes away?"), or against eldar with BL fire dragon serpents, or, or, or...

The Unforgiven Saint wrote:Well Aduro, I heard about what happened from the offending players perspective.

You had two pieces of area terrain in which you did not put your gaunts or your objective. A 3+ cover save of gaunts would be hard for his list o get through (going to ground of course)

Instead the gaunts and objective were placed out in the open.

So what you're saying is I needed to sit in my deployment zone, not move or shoot, and hope the game ended before he tabled me. That of course assumes he didn't simply zip a vendetta over to contest, so I was to just hope for a draw.

That's a terrible Guard list.

he's paying for overcosted Upgrades and taking LRBT's as troops.



for 1k you should be able to destroy that list. take a Venomthrope or 2 and give a couple of Carnies and a bunch of gribblies Cover saves. he won't be able to ID the carnifexs and 1/2 his wounds will bounce off your Gaunts or stealers.

then he will either be forced to stay still to get more shots and do more damage, OR, move and fire single shots and have a poor chance of escape.

if you run all your guys untill in assault range you should catch him by turn 3. if it's Objectives just get onto them and laugh while he vainly tries to table you. if it's KPs just kill the Russes and leave those vendettas alone.

Overcosted upgrades? Allowing a Russ to shoot its main gun twice a turn for another 20 points is a great deal.

Maybe the extra armor is what bothers you? Extra armor reduces stunned to shaken. Vehicles within 6" (I think) of the command tank get to ignore shaken. So, 1/3 of all penetrating hits (and 2/3 of glances) are ignored. Is that a bad deal?

Either you're ignorant of all the crap that IA includes, or of how the game actually works.

Well, i wasn't aware it was that cheap.


It certaintly isn't too cheap.


it limits his mobility by forcing him to stay still. it's an opprotunity cost that doesn't translate into point cost as it allows your Nids to catch him earlier then a normal Russ using Lumbering Behemoth to his advantage would.

it's either Move, stay alive, and waste that upgrade OR stay still, shoot twice, and die much sooner.


it isn't OP at all. it forces choices and can cut both ways.


i also don't appreciate your flamefull comments. IA is actually a fully sanctioned GW product and is meant for use in normal games. SOME people don't like the rules and don't use them. The OP allowed their use and just didn't have the Tactics to compensate. He came here and asked for such tactics. The list in question is woefully unbalanced and is easily beat with a few minor tweaks to a normal list.

you're allowed to tailor your list for each opponent ... tis lame

Autocannons are S7 btw

with lists like his playing eldar and D eldar it seems like it would be best to reserve all.

that way oh shucks you went first ... oh shucks all my stuffs in reserve ..

marines I feel almost need pods here

DoA Ba will have fun with this list! Just drop down enough melta to knock this list away so fast...i sometimes wish people played list like this.

with guard, as mentioned earlier, i would use a priest with a blob squad outflanking, with a few more blob squads with some melta and some lascannon teams to force him to choose where he fires. I don't play with many tanks with IG so wouldn't be able to do vet spam too well.

Sm just stick with drop pods or some vanguard vets as well. just spam up on melta and maybe some PF. Have a ton of outflankers, with Khan.. and just not let him get the shots out.

I don't know much on nids and eldar, but i would try to get as many anti-tank and outflank units out so that he doesn't get much firing before you are up in his (insert word here)..

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:you're allowed to tailor your list for each opponent ... tis lame

see, that is another problem, if gurad are able to tailor to your army, there really isn't ever any reason for guard to lose, they have probably the most flexible codex in the game.

note that the loaders only let lemans fire twice ONE TIME

Grundz wrote:
note that the loaders only let lemans fire twice ONE TIME

Nope, it can be fired twice as long as the tank doesn't move, that is the only condition that has to be met, there is nothing that says that its a one use only type of rule.


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jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:you're allowed to tailor your list for each opponent ... tis lame

Autocannons are S7 btw

with lists like his playing eldar and D eldar it seems like it would be best to reserve all.

that way oh shucks you went first ... oh shucks all my stuffs in reserve ..

marines I feel almost need pods here

I love how people don't even know the rules of the things that they are comenting on, but still feel the need to chime on!

Its a league, of course you should be able to tailor your list to match your opponents, besides, like many people said that IA list cannot win a scenario except by tabling its opponent so I cannot see how it can be that effective against someone that reasonably knows how to play the game.

And going on a rant here, but what exactly is the problem of tailoring your list if you know the type of army you'll be playing against? It isn't something that I normally do unless I'm entering in a league (I like to play with "all comers" lists), but the amount of whining that gets thrown around by most people when this type of stuff comes up is astounding to me.

Its a game, like all games, the purpose of the game is to WIN. If you want to stack your chances so that you achieve the objective of the game, then more power to you. If you don't want to do that then its fine as well. But if you don't want to do it for some personal reason than whine about people who do it then please put down the competitive GAME and go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

This wholle "everybody need to be a winner" mentality that the 90's put into kids is going to be the end of the western human civilization! [/rant]

List tailoring makes for very boring games for one. A league where you can constantly tailor your list to the opponent seems strange to say the least but I guess YMMV...

Anyway, lost of list will wreck this. An infiltrating TH&SS conga line would be fun to try.

Three russes (that fire SIX nasty pie plates) and 3 vendettas are certainly a lot to deal with... in a 1000 pts list!! (think about what you can include in a 1k list....)

And i can appreciate the frustration caused by 3x Av14 w/ extra armour coupled with ignoring shaken results form the command russ....! Nasty, and especially in combination with those tanks firing ordnance TWICE each (im a mech eldar player, and this combo brings memories of 4th holo-falcons for some reason, in terms of the frustration about being hard pushed to stop the russes form doing their thing.)

But, as already pointed out NOT a really balanced list, especially as he cannot score. Beyond me why he doesnt invest in a few scoring units - like 5 man storm trooper units w/ 2 meltas - to place inside 2 vendettas.

It looks to me its all about bringing alot of AT fire in your army. Long ronged str8-9 fire to silence/destroy his vendettas. Then he havent got TOO much AT fire himself (this is if your own army is mech)

Hordes ARE gonna have a problem with 6 pie plates a turn in a 1k pts battle imo.

And seems you NEED more cover (LOS blocking too), that way its possible to use cover in ways that FORCE him to move his tanks in order to shoot at anything.

Of course also placing objectives out of sight and claiming them there gives him real trouble, id say.

Overall: destroy those 3 av12 vendettas. Then he's lost almost all mobility. Then (requires decent cover, that imo the rules are geared for) try and stay away from LOS of his russes, unless you have something that can reach them reliably.

And lastly.... A jetbike seer council works wonders against this list ;D (in 1k you can push in a 10man jetbike council + 2 scoring minsize dire avenger squads in serpents w/ tl BLs)

Coming in from reserves as a DE/Eldar player isn't great, as you just come in piecemeal, allowing the IA player to just take you apart more easily.

While hiding in cover for objective games sounds like a plan, 6 STR 8 AP3 blasts a turn that can basically hit anywhere on the board (72" range, I think) can quickly reduce any unit to shambles. Throw in 9 TL lascannons and objective missions aren't a real issue because opponents get tabled.

In each phase of the league, the first 3 games are worth a lot of points based on W/D/L and number of fully painted units (part of the league's goal) while any subsequent games are just worth a couple points regardless of W/D/L or painting. I think sticking with the same list through the first three games, and then allowing people to tailor as much as they want in the bonus games (where results don't matter) might help some, although I don't think the IA player in question really tailors his list to his opponent...he just tweaks it here and there to try and make it more efficient.

This also reduces the need to move, allowing him to shoot to full effect. If we started putting lots of LOS blocking terrain around, it would be a major paradigm shift at the store (and would seem like we're attempting to stack the deck against one player, which always blows). I feel our amount of LOS blocking terrain is low, especially now that everything is true LOS, but there's no real guide on how much of each type of terrain s correct, just how much total you should have.

While deepstriking meltas sounds good, if he's castled up (which he will be), his Inquisitor and mystics will ensure he gets 2 battle cannon shots or 3 TL lascannon shots at anything that drops into melta range. Few units can survive that, especially as the command tank has BS4, which helps reduce scattering. The recent game I saw him lose to drop pods was a different list without the Inq, and my game I almost drew on was also slightly different.

If IA is a fully sanctioned GW product, why isn't it ever allowed at any of the GW run major tournaments (GT)? It's for casual games and fluff, not for serious competitive play because it can easily be abused into a monstrosity.

You can't disallow IA... it's official and in fact there aren't OP lists in any Imperial armour... maybe Issodon from IA 9 is cheesy in urban warfare but that's it....

Btw thi list isn't so creepy... My standard marine list would turn all that tanks to wrecks in turn 3.... without infantry to support them a single droppodded unit with combis will be able to destroy em all hiding each time behind the damage/wrecked tanks...

Anyway, with nids.... 3 shooty carnies in cover and... as previously said, tons of S4 cheap offenders like hormagaunts... Zohantropes are Instadeathed by the Battle cannos so, even with their creepy invul save I don't know if they would be a good choice....

Seriously you will find that's way easier to beat such a list than you can expect... they are seven models for an average of 200 points each...

ok for 10 points he gets to shoot his lemans twice and for 10 points he gets to give his hydras tank hunters hence the str 8 autocannon. Grimaldi and I have discussed this quite a bit at the league and im trying to figure other alternatives out then haywire wyches. I would have liked to known how it would have played out had I not totally choked my opening salvo

You can disallow anything you want, it's up to the TO. For instance at GT's I don't see any IA muck being thrown about.

List tailoring is best left for children and bad players imo ...

Also after being told that the loaders only work for the first time they fire is helpful.

You left out the 2 mystics he normally runs with the inq

You could also get yourself a squad of tacticals in a pod, a min scout squad, Libby with MotA and MC. Then take 2 LRAs and laugh as everything bounces

Grimaldi wrote:
If IA is a fully sanctioned GW product, why isn't it ever allowed at any of the GW run major tournaments (GT)? It's for casual games and fluff, not for serious competitive play because it can easily be abused into a monstrosity.

^^ as above
IG is really overly represented in IA, and while some is fun and fluffy, they can make some really ridicilous armies as this thread has shown.
You don't need 'tons' of los blocking terrain, because any army fighting this list really only needs one turn of good shooting and the tanks are dead.
punkow: why can't you dissalow IA, it isn't allowed in /any/ tournaments that I know of, just because of this. Also in tournaments you run the same army all the way through, not tune to your enemy every game because you can.
Just for logics sake, I wouldn't allow someone to take IA stuff /and/ GK allies, that's just nonsense.
Remember we're allowing IA here, so a tyranid opponent could take a gargantuan trygon, a necron player could take a pylon, ect. ect. I think one of the real is that the other players aren't cranking up the IA retardation.
The other real issue I see here is you are likely playing WYSIWYG, and many other armies need absurdly expensive FW models while IG doesn't.

Grundz wrote:Remember we're allowing IA here, so a tyranid opponent could take a gargantuan trygon, a necron player could take a pylon, ect. ect. I think one of the real is that the other players aren't cranking up the IA retardation.
The other real issue I see here is you are likely playing WYSIWYG, and many other armies need absurdly expensive FW models while IG doesn't.

Bingo. That was one complaint I've heard from another player.

Tyranid player couldn't take a Trygon, Necron couldn't take a Pylon.

those are restricted by IA rules to Appoc games only.


IA books contain normal AND Appoc units. They are very clear that the Appoc units are Appoc only.

The problem also occurs that the IA books may contain baneblades but the Army List section of the book/updated pdf does not allow baneblades or any superheavies. The army list section was built with regular 40k games in mind, not allowing these kinds of things for a reason.

And while IA stuff is allowed, super heavies were not.

Just make the FoC a must that being the one from his codex w/o any IA nonsense.

If you still want to allow IA make it limited.

I also want to point out he needs the printed daemonhunters codex to ally not just the pdf

Someone should play daemons =)

Aduro wrote:And while IA stuff is allowed, super heavies were not.

Alright well then I give up, I fail to see the logic in allowing a series of books that primarly have equipment for one army and then disallowing most of the other armies additions, then acting supprised when a WAAC player dominates the field.

That's like complaining that it's unfair Xeno codex's get updated less often that Marine ones.

it may not be fair, but them's the breaks.

The guy wants to run IA? Bring two Land Raider achilles with 75 point scout squads inside for the lulz


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The guy wants to run IA? Bring two Land Raider achilles with 75 point scout squads inside for the lulz

Am I insane, or does he have something incredible that kills 2+ armor stealthed someplace within his list?

3x Tyrannofex and some Hive Guard hug cover, crush the Vendies on T1 or 2, then plow forward to shoot/CC tanks.

Lysander, 2 stealthed G2G scout squads (in fortified ruins, nonetheless), and 600 pts of TH/SS Terminators go sprinting across the table shrugging hits.

A Logan Grimnar multimelta long fang squad hops out of a drop pod and vaporizes 2 of his tanks T1.

Anything else in Drop Pods.

2 Land Raiders with MM upgrade and SM Scouts with fist serg + 100 pt HQ with Fist go chucking up the table to say hi... enough points left over for MM speeders or a Drop Pod.

sourclams wrote:Am I insane, or does he have something incredible that kills 2+ armor stealthed someplace within his list?

Nope, they're right out there in the open. Those three Vendettas and their 9 twin-linked lascannons.

3x Tyrannofex and some Hive Guard hug cover, crush the Vendies on T1 or 2, then plow forward to shoot/CC tanks

And that leaves you how many points for an HQ and two troops at 1000 points?

Lysander, 2 stealthed G2G scout squads (in fortified ruins, nonetheless), and 600 pts of TH/SS Terminators go sprinting across the table shrugging hits.

A Logan Grimnar multimelta long fang squad hops out of a drop pod and vaporizes 2 of his tanks T1.

Anything else in Drop Pods.

2 Land Raiders with MM upgrade and SM Scouts with fist serg + 100 pt HQ with Fist go chucking up the table to say hi... enough points left over for MM speeders or a Drop Pod.

We have only a single person doing Marines, and it's Vanilla. He was also the only one to beat this guy at 1k with the drop pods, it's all the non-Marines that need the help.

I would maybe try landraider spam if anyone plays marines. Battle cannons and even lascannons are not that well suited to AV14. Not saying it's good but I would try it.


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At the same time your lascannons wouldn't be that good against his AV 14

Bugs with zoeys in pods, or 70 infiltrating genestealers.
Orks with deathkoptas for the russes and lootas for the vendettas
Eldar fire dragons in serpents, outflanking scatterlaser walkers
Dark eldar lance spam, baron for first turn
Ig -more vendettas, hope for 1st turn

If IA is allowed, why aren't folks whipping out the drop pods that you can assault out of and filling them up with powerfists and dreadnoughts?

Dashofpepper wrote:If IA is allowed, why aren't folks whipping out the drop pods that you can assault out of and filling them up with powerfists and dreadnoughts?

What he said.

Because all that was allowed was the Imperial Armored Battlegroup Army List updated pdf. It mainly just changes the FOC

This is the army list that was allowed by Aduro starting at pp. 17 of the pdf: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA1update28AUG.pdf

No superheavies or flyers are in the list (they say they are flyers for imperial navy support but earlier in the actual entry it says to use them as fast skimmers in non-apoc) Most of the units that are in the Armored Battlegroup that are not in the IG codex, really are pointless vehicles that would serve little purpose such as trojans, turrets, and other things you might notice.

The list strips out all options the IG have in HQ/Elites(cept stormies)/Troops and gives me Leman Russes and Armored Fist Squads.

Then includes the ace skills which may only be taken one per tank.

6 KPs is strong; Tabling will be needed in Annihilation missions.

Objective missions are easily won so long as you do not get tabled(which i find unlikely).

How to beat it:

Nids:
Traditional Nidzilla, or Nidzilla expanded universe should do the trick. By expanded universe I mean Spodding in the Big-bugs. A winged Tyrant, 3(or so) Carnifexs in Spods, Warriors for the troops(maybe in Spods) and 3 Zoan broods with Spods. Don't worry about shooting, just asault the tanks and Planes.

The Eldar will have an easier time; They have lances aplenty.
For Craftword: 3 min units of Fire dragons(duh) riding in Bright-lance serpents(that's 3 T-L lance shots and the serpents ignore battle cannon bonus penetration and can only be damaged max 50% of the time from any shots); i would advocate multiple small units of guardians for this list, each with a lance weapon team(dual Fusion Storm guardians would work well too), And Fire Prisms or Falcons for HS.
For DE: Basic DL/Blaster Spam; Raiders, Ravagers, Wariors with Blasters, Blast pistols on whoever can take them. Scourges with Heatlances would be good here as well.

Most games that did not have my opponent biffing dice rolls or unable to bring the right units due to need for painting points, have either ended in a loss for myself or relatively close games.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Nids:
Traditional Nidzilla, or Nidzilla expanded universe should do the trick. By expanded universe I mean Spodding in the Big-bugs. A winged Tyrant, 3(or so) Carnifexs in Spods, Warriors for the troops(maybe in Spods) and 3 Zoan broods with Spods. Don't worry about shooting, just asault the tanks and Planes.

And that only comes out 390pts over if you take bare minimum sized units with zero upgrades.

As far as DE are concerned more lance weapons arent really a credible option. The list I faced had 3 double shooting lemans, 2 chimeras and 2 tank hunting hydras. Now since his command tank + extra armor mitigates all shaken and stunned results and he doesnt need to move to shoot so immobolised results are fairly who cares as well the only numbers on the chart that matter are 3 5 and 6.

so a single dark lance has a 66% chance to hit and a 50% chance to inflict damage. 16% of the time you glance and only 16% of the time will he care. you have a 33% chance to get a penetrating hit followed by a 50% to get a result he cares about.

so for a single dark lance you have a 1% chance to get the result you want on a glancing hit and a 10% on a penetrating. Any other result means his return salvo is completely unhindered.

check my math if im wrong GF on the phone and im trying to do both lol GF AGRO

Lets see 66% chance of hitting with DL.

33% chance of Penetrate, 16% change of glance.

for Pens, it's a 50% chance for tank to be neutralized(WD and killed/explodes rolls)

for Glances it's a 16% chance of neutralization.


2/3 times 1/2 times 2/3 gives .22222...


Each Dark or Bright Lance has a 22% chance(co0mbined Pens and Glances) of taking a LR out of action permantly by either removing the Battlecannon or killing it outright.

the same results apply to Vendettas/Valks.


That's not too bad if you take a good number of Brightlances. it's certaintly better then Lascannons.

I think your math is a little off. For a lance, you have two things to add up.

2/3 hit, 1/3 pens, 1/2 of pens are either destroyed or weapon destroyed, which comes to 11.11%

add in

2/3 his, 1/6 glance and 1/6 result in weapon destroyed for 1.8%.

Together, that give you about a 13% chance to do something meaningful with a dark lance. That assumes no cover save (as all vendettas will start with).

The odds for the vehicles the IA is shooting at won't be as good.

Haemonculus w/ Webway 85

3x 4 Trueborn w/ 2 Dark Lances

1x 3 Wracks

3x 5 Warriors, 1 w/ Blaster

3 Reavers, 1 w/ Heat Lance

3 Talos w/ Heat Lance


It's especially good if he tailors (or whatever you want to call it) and brings the non-vendetta version. Hopefully you can hide ONE model (the Haemonculus) on your non-LOS-blocking boards. If he's taking the Vendetta version, you might want to put Haywire Blasters on the Talos instead.

The vs. DE list on tuesday looked like so:

Company Command Tank
-Lascannon
-Extra Armor
-Slick Loaders

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Lascannon
-Slick Loaders

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Lascannon
-Slick Loaders

Armored Fist Squad
-Autocannon
-Ace Gunners (tank hunters)

Armored Fist Squad
-Autocannon
-Ace Gunners (tank hunters)

Hydra
-Ace Gunners (tank hunters)

Hydra
-Ace Gunners (tank hunters)
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Not sure on the reavers, have not really had a go through the new DE book. Enlightenment on them might help.

So the plan of your list is to use the webway portal to walk on from, I'm assuming, to utilize the short range weaponry.

Yes, they are slow, but you place the webway before the game starts after I have deployed. All one has to do is space out the lemans and just drive away from the portal. Now you would have footslogging troops with short range weapons and no way to really get to the different models.

Prove me wrong if I assumed something false because I really have not had a chance to look over the new book at all. Cuz the Webway just counts as a table edge so you'd still have to come in via reserves, possibly never getting some units til turn 5.

the webway portal is placed in the models shooting phase and cannot be in a transport to do it.

anywhere on the board or is there a range?

the only things that would give you any trouble in the list at all would be the Talos, and even then they could be quickly dealt with. Haywire blasters arent the answer for IA since most of their shots are glancing which IA doesnt care about

it will have to be placed btb contact with him IIRC
which isnt bad and it's in lieu of his shooting.

deploy 12, move 12, disembark2, 26" portal range ... recomended portal is a small blast marker 2.5" and 28.5" on a 48" board (insert beastmasters here)

26" is not enough to get close enough to do damage on your second turn. Especially if the entire battlegroup is firing at the single transported unit.... Not really that viable in my mind. Could always be wrong, though. Could easily biff 6 battlecannons, 8 hydra shots, 6 multilasers, 2 autocannons... always a chance that could fail and if you went second that it would work. If you went first to put down the portal, there's always moving away from footslogging meltas to my side of the field....

What about beastmasters?
Why not MSU warriors with heat lances?
Scourges with heat lances?
Talos (idk wth it is but) with heat lances.

The games I have lost have been because of my thought a t-fex could hit the broad side of a barn and forgot about tervigon charging forward (at 500 pts) and drop pod meltas against SM.

I think with Eldar in the area, there just are not enough transports/fire dragons in their collections to field against the battlegroup.

With Nids, I would assume spodding zoeys would do a world of hurt (but i never got to see that part of our game), also spodding warriors w/heavy venomes (S9 right?) or spodding fexes?

The goal is to close the gap between the two forces and if you have any kind of pods at your disposal, they will be the key to getting there.

Against regular IG, it would be the same problem with IG v IG: whoever goes first will win.

Orks (not in the league but for sake of argument) have hordes that can be properly spaced to only lose maybe 20 orks a turn not counting cover saves or KFF. Coupled with deffkoptas and such, could be deadly.

Necrons (not in the league) can bring wraiths out the crap-hole and just turbo-boost with a lord and wreck face once they get to the front line (which would be turn 2)

CSM have cheap termies with 5 pt combi-meltas along with plaguemarines to soak up battlecannon fire.

To me, it seems there are ways to beat the battlegroup, and many of them. It seems in the games I have played, it was either the other army did not have the tools from the start (because of its construction, not their codex) to kill what i brought, they biffed dice rolls early game, or they sat in the open with gaunts, rushing towards leman russes in an objective mission where the battlegroup had no scoring units.

beastmasters can take as the name suggests beasts, X ravenwing, X chymera, X something else

Talos is a large MC thats T7 w/ 3 wounds

reavers with heat lances would be awesome there

Aduro wrote:I myself am doing `Nids, but there's also a pair of Craftworld Eldar, and pair of Dark Eldar. He swaps out Vendettas for Hydras with Tank Hunters when going against the Eldar opponents.

Eldar:
Farseer, fortune, jetbike
4x warlocks on jet bikes
4 units of 5 rangers, who just go to ground on objectives
3 wraith lords with shuriken cannons

The hydras may ignore the bikes cover save, but they don't do crap to the 3+ armor with re-roll. You still get the 3+ cover with re-roll vs the battle cannons, and only drop to 4+ invul with re-roll once you start carving into his tanks.
The wraith lords make a dash for the tanks, as do the jet bikes. You've got a lot of stuff that he "must" kill, and I don't think he'll get them all before you get to him. Even if he does finish off the assault force, you've still got 4 units with 2+ cover saves for him to deal with.

-Matt

Nenya97 wrote:Because all that was allowed was the Imperial Armored Battlegroup Army List updated pdf. It mainly just changes the FOC

This is the army list that was allowed by Aduro starting at pp. 17 of the pdf: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA1update28AUG.pdf

No superheavies or flyers are in the list (they say they are flyers for imperial navy support but earlier in the actual entry it says to use them as fast skimmers in non-apoc) Most of the units that are in the Armored Battlegroup that are not in the IG codex, really are pointless vehicles that would serve little purpose such as trojans, turrets, and other things you might notice.

The list strips out all options the IG have in HQ/Elites(cept stormies)/Troops and gives me Leman Russes and Armored Fist Squads.

Then includes the ace skills which may only be taken one per tank.

^^
This is hilarious

The "stripped outs" units, are also known as troops, which are an anchor at 1000pts "oh god, but I can't take any crappy infantry!" as a downside, is funny.
whats even better, is you somehow convinced the organizer that basically getting an unlimited number of leman russ's firepower for 90 points for each S8ap3 pie is balanced.
Then you build a wannabe leafblower list out of it, including GK allies (even though this is not IG as stated and is not mentioned as a valid ally in the GK codex nor in this PDF)
Then you convince the organizer that only you should get your toys, and not let anyone else use IA codex additions.
And you can adjust your list at will against any opponent, so instead of building a reasonable, flexible list where you might have to out-strategize your opponent or actually play the game, you basically just sit and roll dice until you win, and there's very little many armies can do against such a gimmick.
Good show, let me know when you graduate to warhammer from rock paper sizzors

No complaining about the IA rules now. Remember they're a well-balanced non-optional core ruleset for 40k.

As for how DE takes on this list, I'd only take the WWP if you're playing on a 4x4 table for 1000 pts. On a 4x6, I'd go with something like:
Baron
6 Trueborn w/2 Darklances
3 Ravagers with FF
2 x 3 Reavers w/ heat lance
5 warriors w/blaster in raider
5 wyches w/haywire, hexatrix w/blaster in raider

Baron gives you +1 for 1st turn. Deploy in multi-level ruin w/ the trueborn and he should never hit more than 2 w/ a pieplate for which you get a 3+ cover.
I'd turbo with the reavers, and move flat out with the raiders straight at him (unless it's objectives, then hide/reserve your troops). 11 Darklances from the ravagers/trueborn should kill 2 hydras first and have a shot or two left over for the command tank (always focus on the command tank before the other russes).

He's then left with the choice of whether to take shots at 3++ melta-toting bikes, 4++ raiders with blasters and haywires, 5++ ravagers, or 3++ infantry with darklances. He also has to choose whether to fire twice, or allow auto-hits with haywires if he doesn't wipe out the wyches.

Whatever he doesn't focus on should be able to kill the command tank and win a war of attrition.

The stripped out units include a lot of things people bitch about, CCS officers like astropath/OoF, PBS, Veterans, the ability to take big platoons, and lots of scoring units. The frustration that I see again and again is when I can bring 2 scoring units of 10 guys in a chimera and still manage to win objective games. THAT, is hilarious and disappointing on my opponents' part. If someone is unable to kill 2 units of guardsmen and lose to something like that, it is pathetic and should reconsider wtf they are doing on the table.

I don't understand where you are getting unlimited firepower for 90 points, are you referring to slick loaders? It's 20 points and has to remain still to use it. Idk if you know the rules for assaulting a vehicle that did not move but you automatically hit on tanks that max out at rear AV 11, which, mind you, is pathetic against powerfist, witchblade, meltabombs, chainfist or any other kind of anti-tank cc weapon.

Yes, slick loaders allow the tank to shoot twice in a turn for a very good reason, because most armies that want to make it to the opponents' lines, make it there by turn 2.

GK allies was something I used in a few games to help go first with a 35 pt inquisitor because there are often only useless upgrades for that cheap of a cost. If you do not think that it is right to use an inquisitor with the tarot, that is fine but this is still an Imperial Guard army restructured. I've already considered not using them because of the flame that already comes my way in regular games, and now that I present a near expectable list every game and these guys still can't beat it, I would assume they really need to rethink wth they are doing and I need to think about maybe toning it down a bit to give em a little hand.

Other IA additions are able to be used as far as I know, Aduro said anyone could use any official lists. I was referring to what he had said was legal for myself which only includes what is in this one list. There was nothing I did but ask if I could use this list. If he wants to allow other things then that is his prerogative and I have no say to stop him otherwise.

We are able to change our list against any opponent, and everyone is able to do that and that was encouraged for everyone from the beginning.

Sitting back and roll dice till I win is how Imperial Guard work, and in essence how every army works. I do not know how any other IG army could win against competent opponents. Most other ways, in the fashion of blobs are easily countered, especially if your opponents know what is coming. When an army is based on being slow and only being able to rely on the shooting phase, it is a necessity.


I have tried to remain nice about all this bitching and whining because this league was just for fun. But when it comes down to it, the first time I try and help someone actually tailor a list against myself, they win. When I present an army that is spending nearly 200 points per model at 1000 pts and taking at least 3 of them every game, it is sadening to not see the right amount of effort put into making a list that would have answers to whatever I could bring.

Yes, some armies like Nids have a tough time answering the armored battlegroup but what will change if I had played regular IG? I end up massing more guns on the table than they can kill and receiving the same kind of bull gak from these local guys because a lot of them just dont know wtf they are doing when they play against guard.

I wanted to play this to change things up without having to buy an entirely new army. I wanted to just have fun trying something new, that I thought would be a little easier to fight against, giving my opponent a little more of a heads up on what I would bring (at least a few russes, giving them the incentive to maybe bring meltaguns or their equivilants). Apparantly, I was wrong, what I do end up seeing is only Grimaldi having any kind of a serious answer to what I bring and the guy i lost to, I practically built his list for him. Both of which games have been very close.

Seriously, though, what would change if I switched back to regular IG for the sake of shutting you guys the hell up? The same kind of stupid childish comments come in waves of how cheesey guard are and "omg wtf how do you field all these awesome models" I'm sick of it. It is pathetic what these guys have done locally and it's the same reason I quit earlier.

All you guys look for is pity, not actual advice. There are countless ways to beat the armored battlegroup as shown in this thread, it just takes a little list tailoring, which is what was encouraged as far as I know but no one is doing what it takes to win and just bitching about it. Allow whatever you want or disallow whatever you want, it's still just bitching about you losing in the end. I have tried to not be a dick about this, but I see more sportsmanship out of the little kids playing Pokemon when they get beat horribly week after week.

Then again, maybe it is I that is just the stubborn one and I'm too blind to see it.

Nenya97 wrote:
Seriously, though, what would change if I switched back to regular IG

well for one, the playing field would be level instead of skewed heavily in your favor, if you're such a great player, you shoudn't need 6 S8ap3 pieplates a turn for 90 points each @1k, you should be able to do it with many, reasonable lists by outplaying your opponent.

don't get me wrong, I /never/ lose in my local group unless allied with someone, and then fairly rarely, I mean, /everyone/ has gotten "bottom of 2 wiped" by my tyranids when I played them, but I feel my group is slowly getting better as I weakened my playstyle, and then am slowly bringing it back up as the other guys get better and give me a run for my money. My roomate went from running 6 vanilla marine squads with missle launchers, and no rhino's, and sat back firing 6 rockets a turn, to a variety of decent space wolf lists that he comes up by himself for example.
I don't run a WAAC list for the same reasons you see in this thread, its not fun, and it's annoying to everyone else, I'll run power blobs and ogryns or something, for me the challenge is taking a sub-optimal list and trying to wreck house with it rather than seeing if I can completely wipe out my opponent with no casualities.
.
Remember you play warhammer because you have people to play against, chasing them off by being a douche is not the way to go, it's a social game.
Unless you only play to beat someone, crush them into the ground, and rub their face in it, in that case, you should pick up the Xbox live hobby.

as has been pointed out, that IA list has some serious flaws that can be easily exploited by any balanced list.


if you get into CC, he is dead.

Deep striking Melta, he is dead.

if there is a reasonable amount of cover, he is dead.

if it is an objective mission(2/3 of games) he has lost.

the Vendettas die to high str shooting and are his only Str9 in the list.

the list doesn't have any Melta. Landraiders will just laugh off those Battlecannons no matter how many times they get to fire.

See the thing that changes if you play gaurd Nenya is that stunned and shaken results MATTER vs IA. Would some armies still have difficulties? Sure, I mean if you roll dice like I did in our game you just cant expect to win lol. I think you greatly underestimate how good that really is. If I glance and stun your vehicle it cant shoot me, that means that if I took reavers and stun a hydra my reavers will live. if I stun the chimera and the troops want to shoot they have to get out.

I think GK allies goes against the grain of where the game is moving. It will be gone when they get a new codex and it should have been taken care of by GW in a FAQ. If nobody else can do it then you shouldnt either.

If someone is unable to kill 2 units of guardsmen and lose to something like that, it is pathetic and should reconsider wtf they are doing on the table.

If you remember in our game I tried and choked so does this make me pathetic? Even though i've fought well against you in the past? insulting the people you play as well as the tourney organizer (the person who started this thread) is not good form sir but since im sure you are frustrated I will write it off as an outburst

Another thing Nenya, the Gaurd codex is a very very strong codex this isnt your fault and in many ways its about time since Gaurd have long been an army considered to be very weak. That being said some things in the codex are over the top, a lot of people dont fault you for taking them because its your right but you have to expect some flak to go your way. Even the flak I give you is just friendly. Did I not say bring the meanest you can bring in our game.

I think that allowing an all Imperial Armored unit from a PDF in a 1,000 pt game should be the issue, as the TO should see this and not allow as most army lists I see starts with 1 HQ and 2 Troop. I understand this PDF IA list has no troop listing and should be questioned. If I were to face this little 1,000 pt list I would use my Chaos forces.

HQ
Chaos Lord in Termie armor, mark of Khorne, Deamon Weapon.

2 Troops
x5 CSM, champ, melta bomb, plasma gun, missile launcher.
x5 CSM, champ, melta bomb, plasma gun, missile launcher.

2Heavies
x2 Predator Tanks, Turret Upgrade, Sponson las cannon, x2 combiweapon.

Heavy
x3 Obliterators

I can beat a few lousy tanks with this list and have in the past, If I were to get mean I would us my Traitor Guard and Blob mob him to death.

if you get into CC, he is dead.

I dont think you realise how much firepower he can bring at 1k. the list that faced me was 6 str 8 pie plates, 8 twinlinked tank hunting autocannon shots, 4 normal autocannon shots and 6 multi-laser shots. while getting into CC is a good idea without cover its dangerous.

Deep striking Melta, he is dead.

until he takes a mystic/astropath to slow this little trick down

if there is a reasonable amount of cover, he is dead.

in our game there was 0 cover for a vehicle and small hills for the infantry. Our local group is working on solving this problem by Aduro making more terrain

if it is an objective mission(2/3 of games) he has lost.

Nenya will completely ignore the objective and go for a table because honestly if he cant table you then hes already down to many tanks to matter anyways. So completely incorrect there

the Vendettas die to high str shooting and are his only Str9 in the list.

The vendetta list actually would have been easier for me but it was only played to beat Nids and wasnt the norm

the list doesn't have any Melta. Landraiders will just laugh off those Battlecannons no matter how many times they get to fire.

I think we have already touched on marines having strats to beat this and that its not the marines who are having issues. The question is if you dont have drop pods or landraiders whats the option

Laosiamus wrote: the list doesn't have any Melta. Landraiders will just laugh off those Battlecannons no matter how many times they get to fire.

I think we have already touched on marines having strats to beat this and that its not the marines who are having issues. The question is if you dont have drop pods or landraiders whats the option

This Imperial Armored list keeps changing, but I stand that with out drop pods or Land Raider I can beat any list, thats legal with the list i posted above. Heck I face a Space Wolf Plasma Gun line army every week end and not impressed. Tacitics are 50% of the game use them right and you could beat a list with 3 Leman Russ tanks and Vendetta any day. I never fight with 1,000 pts, I always fight 1,500+ and have severallists for different armies I face. Against Nids I would go Close Combat....Dark Eldar I would go more shooty, any Imperial army I mix up my units but go more close combat. Try using Assault troops, jump packs are great and a few chain swords or power swords and melta bombs in the right hands kills any tank. Heck I could beat this tank force with an all Termie army and not have a care in the world.

So what you're saying, is you could easily beat his 1000pt army with any 1500pt army you want? I'd believe that.

@LordWynne. Its not a standard gaurd list, those battle tanks get to shoot twice, you would need a lot of 6's on lascannons to make Nenya even flinch since he can ignore all shaken and stuns which is pretty much any result on the glancing.....OR you could immobolise him.....YAY, like he was gonna move anyway lol.

For Eldar, attempt to deploy behind LOS blocking terrain.
Take 3 Falcons with holofields,EML,SC,ss, Eldrad, Farseer, 3 units of FD and 2 of PF(objective campers)

should come out at less than 1500. might be able to fit in something else fun but its not needed.

If someone wants to play an all-tank spam list and tailor it depending on the opponent, then i see no reason not to tailor mine to be anti-mech

Deployment, Eldrads divination should mess with his fire arcs.
Turn 1, Fortune the 3 Falcons. Move Flat-out, preferablly where some of his tanks cannot get LOS
Thats a 4+ re-rollable cover save, and he rolls 2D6 and picks the lowest when rolling for damage. I've tried this in apoc with 2 Falcons and survived 4,000 points of incoming fire (not likely everyday, but goes to show how survivavble you can be)
Turn 2, Guide the Falcons (if shaken, guide FD) thats 3 dead tanks from FD. Then the falcons could pick off other vehicles if able to fire, 9 S8 and 9 S6 shots at BS3(guided) should work nicely.
Turn 3+ should be a clean-up operation, kudos if any FD are left alive but the falcons and whatever else you took should do well.

For 1k, same principle, but 2 FD in falcons (540) with eldrad or 2 cheap seers (210-250). might need to make take 2 cheap DA and GtG instead of PF (120-240).
total... 770 with the cheaper options.

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For DE i'd try a webway, you only need to hide 1 raider(deployed sideways), 12" deployment on, pivot to gain 2", move 12", disembark 2.9" (effectivly 3") drop webway...
Webway portal is now 29" on.
With a nice mix of AT you should be able to cause some havoc. Haywire grenades, blasters, etc, can pile out of here relativly close to his tanks and take advantage. If he moves away hes reducing his shooting abilities.
If you took Lady Malys you can also re-position your raider to avoid any incoming fire.

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I'd like to see how he does against a Shrike + TH/SS termie combo

dayve: you're only 500 points over, because all that silly was crammed into a 1000pt list

I just looked at this list in the books??

ok 1000 pts

1 HQ leman russ..

2 TROOP 2 Leman Russ.....(you need 1 Infantry like Armored Fist w/ Chimera to make this legal)

Fast Attack x3 Vendetta....

Why an Inqusitor?

Not a very legal list but I would put my 1000 pts of Chaos against that list. Looks a little to much Apoc to me and needs to be bulstered by 500+ pts to make it as scary as your making it out to be....I would love to see an all Ork infanrty army at 1,000 pts chew this list up.

40 'Crons + 2 Res Orb Lords. Glance to death?

Chaos Daemons. Deep Strike in his face, monstrous creatures and invulnerables should make his ordnance redundant.

Grundz wrote:dayve: you're only 500 points over, because all that silly was crammed into a 1000pt list

Edited ^.^

how does it need to be bolstered by 500+ points to be scary?

give that puny Imperial Armor company 500+ more points to make it more legal by adding infantry and it just might worry some of us...

Ok, so it seems like the main issue was you guys don't have enough terrain.


on a normal 4x6 table there should be at least 3 large-ish pieces that will give cover to anything that takes fire from the other side. Forests, large rocks...


that would be my reccomendation, play with some real terrain.

i think it was this and not the list that killed you. any guard player has the advantage when he has unobstructed fire lanes to your army.

Give him a piece of his own poison to be honest.
Field 2 Hades drills, with metla veterans.

I don't think you need anything else :p

as has been said, Marines weren't having a problem.

it's the Nids and Eldar that are getting splatted.

Hydras have access to tank hunters in this IA list too? Jeez, let me guess, 20pts? Double firepower for 20pts for russes - lol, don't even try to defend that with "I have to stay still", it is horribly unbalanced. The list sounds totally ridicolous, and the player too, that is a seriously poor attitude you've got man. Careful so you don't become TFG of the group.

One option for you guys if this guy continues with this attitude and that apparently silly list (with additional list tailoring even - jeez) is to not play him. As someone said, it is a social game, it is played for fun, if you're not having any fun, why bother playing him?

@Lord Wynne how is it not legal? Hes has 2 troops and an HQ at 1000 points. What rule is he breaking to make it illegal

LordWynne wrote:
Why an Inqusitor?

so the lemans can drop 2 S8ap3 blasts on your deep striking troops before they get to fire, also to almost guarentee getting the first turn.

slick loaders is 20 points which lets him shoot twice, ace gunner on the hydras which gives him tank hunter is 10.

For reference, HERE is an assortment of the types of terrain at the FLGS and some of the typical tables. With TLoS, it takes a MASSIVE piece of terrain to really hide much of anything. You only have to see a little piece of it thru a tiny hole, and you can shoot it. Anything that's giving you cover, is slowing down how long it takes you to get to him, giving him more turns of shooting to make up for it. He's fine sitting there, not moving, and only killing what he can see each turn, because you're going to have to come out into the open to get to him or return fire.

Generally reserve outflank and deep strike lists should own a list that consists of 6 vehicles and one character.

BA winged spartan lists sporting two fusion guns each and 2+ saves.

DE reavers, ravagers and scourges. A ravager entering the board with 3 x DL should be able to choose dead vendetta.
The DE special character that steals initiative on a 4+. Webway portals and 4xblaster trueborn.

Terminator lists - Deathwing, Chaos (add obliterators), Logan termies. Let those amazing AP3 large blast templates land on some termies. SW or Chaos termicide deepstriking with 3+ combi-meltas and a chainfist.

Spam other disgusting things like 3+ x LR lists and out quality those leman russes.

Tau laugh at idiots who put points in big point baskets. Walk on a slow and purposeful broadside and plant a big one on the vendettas. Deepstrike in fusiongun crisis suits. Play with XV25s and screw with his ranging in.

How about eldar mounted scorpions and war walkers outflanking? Warlock led jetbike squads - 3 x S9 attacks on AV 10 should do the trick.

Spores or drop pods.

Kommandos and Vulchas or outflanking deffkoptas. Nob bikers - don't need to be all tricked out

Reserve your troops in objective games and walk them in to claim one in the late game for a win. (e.g. 5 CSM inside a landraider that pops smoke.)

Old codex him with DA smoke launchers.

Also, bring first turn chargers if you've got them:
Scout bikers
Land speeder storm + scouts
Vendetta + veterans
Deffkoptas

3x1 deffkopta with buzzsaw can wreck all three russes if you go first, so that's almost an auto-include for orks against this list IMO

Must take

1 HQ...he took a Leman Russ

Troop Choice
1 Leman Russ legal not 2, other choice is Armored Fist Group w/ Chimera legal choice.

He can have the third Leman Russ if it was Apoc rules or he spent the points for it after getting the Infantry and maybe drop a Vendetta to afford it.

I was just wondering why he toook the Inqusitor is all lol.

Dont allow that kind of force organization.

Those Russes don't count as scoring right? Since vehicles can't hold objectives how does he win? At most he could draw.

He needs 1 HQ and 2 troops his HQ being the leman russ command tank and 1 troop being a Tank squadron with 1 leman russ in it and the second troop being a Tank squadron with 1 leman russ in it. Unless I missed something in the PDF file I fail to see how that is illegal? sure none of it is scoring but when your goal is to table someone who cares. Furthermore the list I faced had 2 chimeras with troops in it as well. soooo really he took 1 HQ 4 troops and 2 heavy support

I could see a BA techmarine with a combi-melta working wonders here

he strikes again... NO THREAD IS SAFE!

As far as your terrain goes it seems like you just got a bad terrain set up for facing that particular army.

if you were fighting in that city board he wouldn't have stood a chance.

it is possable to either move from cover to cover or force him to move to get an unobstructed view.



Don't blame the enemy when you can blame yourself or the terrain.


if Vehicles can't get cover fairly easily then you are using too little or not the right kind of terrain.

hes the one who set up the board lol. I could probably forgive the double shot lemans and the extra str on the hydras if I was able to stun/shake the stupid things to keep them from firing back at me, but I cant so long as he stays in a ball. So from that standpoint I most definatly can blame the army.

The stun/shake thing goes away if you kill one tank right?

correct, but assuming he wont protect it you still need enough weapons to actually do it and since I play DE any one of his tanks is just as deadly as the next. Now I could get lucky and 6 to hit 6 to pen 6 boom on my first shot but I wouldnt bet on it so you would probably need quite a lot of firepower to initially destroy that vehicle which means his other vehicles are unhindered to return fire.

It may not be your 1st shot, but assuming you're taking 3 ravagers w/3 lances each, plus several other lances, I'd think by shot 12 you'd have it.
Not saying his list isn't tough, but if you can take down his hydras and command tank early, the rest should fall into place. 1st turn helps alot, which is why I suggested the Baron.

I apologize for getting angry, it happens too often and is disrespectful.

The point of bringing an Inquisitor was because I had 35 points and that is how many points an elite slot Inquisitor is with the emperor's tarot. I have not played with any of the retinues with the armored battle group.

The two shot Leman Russes are 185 pts with the slick loader and extra armor, idk where people were getting 90 points. The command tank was over 200.

I did not set up the tables lol as far as I know it was all Aduro who did.

The problems I saw most often against people that were not even fair games is when they either were unable to field transports for cheap (like Eldar) or just biffed dice rolls, especially against Laosiamus.

If you bring the right tools to the job and can find a way to deliver them, it levels the playing field and makes at least for a closer game.

I keep seeing people referring to 6 pie plate shots when all I see in the rules is 3x2 pie plate shots. He can not shoot at six targets in the same round. All he can do is fire at the same target twice. So if you have enough units someone is going to get through and then auto-hit every tank in his army. Nids should have a field day. Can't say much about the eldar/dark eldar since I don't know them well enough.

haroon wrote:Those Russes don't count as scoring right? Since vehicles can't hold objectives how does he win? At most he could draw.

Assuming you didn't throw out the core rules. No vehicle can control an objective. Thus also the dubious nature of BA Deathcompanie Dreads or the
"free" Dreadnoughts that Big Meks qualify for.

a sh**load of genestealers?
a sh**load of carnifexes?
a sh**load of hive guard hiding behind a wall, shooting round it?
a sh**load of zoanthropes?
a couple of harpies?
a sh**load of tervigons?

Laosiamus wrote:correct, but assuming he wont protect it you still need enough weapons to actually do it and since I play DE any one of his tanks is just as deadly as the next. Now I could get lucky and 6 to hit 6 to pen 6 boom on my first shot but I wouldnt bet on it so you would probably need quite a lot of firepower to initially destroy that vehicle which means his other vehicles are unhindered to return fire.

Did you try reavers w heat lances? 36" Move on with a 3+ invulnerable. Next turn blast him with S6 meltas - not the best against AV 14 but should do wonders on chimeras, hydras and vendettas. Webway portals should mean you are never closing across the entire board so on foot blaster trueborn or wych haywire grenade units should do fine.

Proxy DE flyers. 4 x implosion missiles, 1 void bomb and 2 void cannons should be a fine reserve to beat him up. Or go flyer light and try a razorwing.

DE are just a tough pull facing unshakeable heavy armor that also can shoot down your paper airplanes despite your speed.

field 3 of the LR achilles.

shrike wrote:field 3 of the LR achilles.

Maybe 2 it is a 1k points league thingy

Nenya97 wrote:

The two shot Leman Russes are 185 pts with the slick loader and extra armor, idk where people were getting 90 points.

Because 185/2 because you are firing 2 shots a turn, you are basically getting the firepower of a leman russ for 90 points without any of the drag of having to take troops/hq

with the minimium troop cost (approx) and your leman russes firing like they are two, you have basically 2-2.5 times as much firepower as you should for the first ~2 turns which is about where medium/short range weapons come into play

You fail to see taking an Inquisior/Lord also forces you to take 2 troop options and in a 1,000 pt option team. Its not in the list thats given, so its a Apoc list that a TO not knowing this has allowed a totally Armored Company to be in your 1,000 pt. tourney, I see in this listing yes. 1 HQ mandatory, 1 Troop mandarory (Leman Russ) the other must be a armored Troop with Chimera unless under Apoc rules a thrird Leman russ. Suport is the name of the game in low point games, thats why that rule in the Armor Book on page 268 of the Armor Book says in a 1500 pt list.Yes a Support team is needed, unless you want untold Anti-Tank hell from others. I spent 21 yrs in the armed forces and if that force went out to fight in my day. It would be dead without a support team or two. Legal or not its a fools man choice..I would drop a Vendetta and get a Chimera w/ troops, Armored Fist or Vets. Its a point issue not a legal issue, playing that list in a game I TO would not be accepted because of no support units.

I don't really understand where you are going with the Inquisitor thing, LordWynne. It's not a tourny that is goin on, its a league where people can change their lists for each player. I just don't know what you are trying to say.

Grundz wrote:
with the minimium troop cost (approx) and your leman russes firing like they are two, you have basically 2-2.5 times as much firepower as you should for the first ~2 turns which is about where medium/short range weapons come into play

2-2.5 times total firepower is a bit misleading. Those tanks will undoubtedly have twice of what they should. The rest of the army still as at par without similar upgrades.

As earlier noted, these shots are forced to be at the same target and must remain stationary to even do so. This does not mean that the rule is any less unfair but there are some repercussions that are not being exploited. CC armies can easily decimate the armored battlegroup as long as they can get there. But how different of a challenge is that from against any other opponent, just having to add in anti tank weaponry and maybe a heavier/quicker delivery system.

Shooting armies may have to resort to taking some different, heavier guns like more meltas, lances, or other equivalence to overcome the higher AV. I'm not saying it is easy but decide what the best weapons you have to kill these things and take them; throw them into a delivery system and give it a go.

Nenya97 wrote:
2-2.5 times total firepower is a bit misleading. Those tanks will undoubtedly have twice of what they should. The rest of the army still as at par without similar upgrades.

your also missing a couple hundred points that should be tied up in HQ and troops, which again, makes even more firepower available. so 60ish% of your army having twice as much firepower as it and a large portion of the rest of it not being tied up in relatively empty troop and hq choices, gives you the 2-2.5 times number

@LordWynne I must be lost somewhere but I have no idea what you are talking about. The list he is using isnt in any type of book its a PDF file on forge worlds site. nowhere that ive seen in the file does it say you HAVE to take an armored fist squad for your second troops choice. If you can quote that for me as a rule from the PDF file then call me wrong but otherwise he can most definatly do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Did you try reavers w heat lances? 36" Move on with a 3+ invulnerable. Next turn blast him with S6 meltas - not the best against AV 14 but should do wonders on chimeras, hydras and vendettas. Webway portals should mean you are never closing across the entire board so on foot blaster trueborn or wych haywire grenade units should do fine.

Proxy DE flyers. 4 x implosion missiles, 1 void bomb and 2 void cannons should be a fine reserve to beat him up. Or go flyer light and try a razorwing.

DE are just a tough pull facing unshakeable heavy armor that also can shoot down your paper airplanes despite your speed.

Honestly I thought long and hard about scourge vs reavers and the problem boils down to Nenyas hydras that dont care about my turbo cover save. Add in the lack of any real cover we had on our table and they just would have at best got one tank down before they were toast. So I went with the scourge not really thinking about how I cant glance him to much effect either lol. Im not completely sold on webway portals because he has the whole board to work with, alls he has to do is stay way from me then my footslogging army just walks into death. With unshakeable vehicles I dont have a lot of options.

your best bet might be just to present target saturation.

use cheap raiders to shield your Incubi or Reavers untill they can get close enough to do damage.

each tank you kill(mob one at a time) will increase your survivability.

get your Incubi into assault and they should at least damage a tank if not kill it.


Kill his command tank so he no longer ignore's stunned results. it will reduce his army's efficiency.


if there is some real cover to hid behind you might try to shoot his Vendettas down first with DLs while hiding from the LRBTs.


Remember that no list in unbeatable. take beating it as a challenge. it might be fun to see if you can topple it.

if that doesn't appeal to you then you don't have to play against that list. find another game.

@Grey Templar Keep in mind that DE are a glass cannon army. My whole game hinders on him losing that main tank (which something to note, after reading the rules the command tank loses this ability while IMMOBOLISED. thats a plus.) That could take a lot of fire power that I cant spread around which is really what I need to do to stand toe to toe with heavy mech.

See for me a stunned is as good as dead because now he cant return fire and I can move on to another tank. now I have to throw my whole army at one tank OR lose and even then, if my lance that connects and kills is far enough down the line I wont have enough lances leftover to mop up the other 6 tanks he has that are almost gauranteed to down mine.

He didnt take 3 vendettas against me it was 3 leman russes, 2 hydras, 2 chimeras packed with 10 dudes with autocannons packed in. So his saturation was pretty solid to begin with as was mine I fielded 3 raiders, 3 ravagers and 2 haywire blaster toting scourge units (later found to be a waste after learning about that sweet glance rule lol)

Grundz wrote:

Nenya97 wrote:
2-2.5 times total firepower is a bit misleading. Those tanks will undoubtedly have twice of what they should. The rest of the army still as at par without similar upgrades.

your also missing a couple hundred points that should be tied up in HQ and troops, which again, makes even more firepower available. so 60ish% of your army having twice as much firepower as it and a large portion of the rest of it not being tied up in relatively empty troop and hq choices, gives you the 2-2.5 times number

Think about how many points are being tied up into these units, though, especially in a lower point game. 600 points are tied into shooting at 3 different targets a turn twice. If the points got allocated into more Armored fist or vendettas or some other thing, you end up getting either more separate shots (yes, weaker, but usually multiple units) to fire at different targets.

I am not saying this is not something that is completely fair but one should recognize the drawbacks. It's like taking an army of mini deathstars. They may be pretty killy but we are talking about tanks, all it takes are one decent shot to really biff it down out of commission as opposed to monsterous creatures or armies that spam something small.

I am not disagreeing that they pump out more firepower but they have to, because if they dont, they MIGHT drag down one or two units with them, never being able to make up their ~200 point cost.