I'm new to 40k and have just started painting up a SM army (yeah, I know, typical. What can I say? I'm a sucker for power armor). I saw the Grey Knights Omnibus at my library the other day and have started reading it. I like it, it's fun.

But. It's a little hard for me to swallow that, like, the Imperium are the good guys. Why? Why should the novel be from their perspective, why am I supposed to want them to win? They seem just as "evil" as Chaos (I mean, the Emperor has to have 1000 people murdered every day just so he can live).

Anyway, maybe I'm thinking about it too much, but this is what I do. Are there any novels/fiction that take a more balanced approach or criticize the Imperium? Or even, are there any books not written from the Imperium's perspective?

UHh. No They do bad stuff all the time. Every race does. Even the tau. The Tau are evil as they destroy entire worlds.

No, we are supposed to root for Orks, and never them sissy armoured tincans known as SM.

Noir wrote:No, we are supposed to root for Orks, and never them sissy armoured tincans known as SM.

Hey I resent that!

I don't delve much into the black library, however Warhammer exists exactly as you say. The Imperium of Man is every bit as messed up as you think it is, and while I would say it is a stretch to say they are AS bad as the twisted depraved forces of Chaos, the all consuming hive fleets of the Tyranids, or the sadistic raiders of the Dark Eldar, they are certainly far from good guys in many ways.

Most of the Galaxy exists in a shade of gray, the only real reason you might side with Imperium is that it is mankind, which you happen to be a member of (and the reason people assume they are the "good" guys.) But they are no more good then Eldar, Tau, Orks, etc. They just have different goals as a society (Survival, Expansion and WAAAAGH! respectively).

That's how I see it anyway.

You also have to remember that you are reading the Grey Knights omnibus, and that means the stories are going to be told from the perspective of the Imperium.

Sounds just like LA here in Cali on a daily basic...Ohhh my....Bloods...Crips....and other Bangers...I shade of grey in all societies.........Lets just play Necromunda and hope that the Judges dont gives us the death penalty for having illegal comic books....

The Imperium is evil, lesser of many but they still do evil stuff.

However many humans in the imperium are good people who fight for justice and peace. its a pity the system they work in is som messed up.

Asherian Command wrote:

Noir wrote:No, we are supposed to root for Orks, and never them sissy armoured tincans known as SM.

Hey I resent that!

No, No , No you were suppose to say "Hey I play SM" then I say "So you know".

You root for whatever race you like the most.

No race (besides Chaos) is really the "good or bad" guy.

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:I mean, the Emperor has to have 1000 people murdered every day just so he can live).

Its the balancing act, 40k isn't like the lord of the rings where good and evil are pretty well defined, its not like angels and devils. the IoM is not evil it is just looking out for itself, if the sacrifices were not made the emperor would die (may lead to star child or new god senarios) this would lead to the collapse of the IoM and the deaths of countless civilians who are on the whole innocent to the 'evil' actions of the IoM. add o this that those that get sacrificed are chosen because of the danger they pose, each one is too weak to prevent them being turned into an entrance for daemons, which would lead to countless deaths of more innocents.


BL does have some eldar novels i think, but most are written from the perspective of humans or superhumans.

If you're looking for a neutral faction to vote for that is closest to 'White' in the shades of morality you're going to end up with either the Tyranid swarms that crawl over planets devouring everything all the way down to the sky itself or the legions of metallic undead of the future that are prone to wipe out entire worlds because they were woken up. So...do you like bugs or zombies because they're the closest to good

No, necrons are evil too, they do it because the only emotion they have left is hate. Pure, unadulterated hate.

Dude, you're human so I'd assume you'd wish for the survival of the human race. There's not really any other given side. The fluff of 40k is so contradictory sometimes. In the common intro to all the books, the imperium may seem very grimdark. But when you read less fanatical, killmaimburn imperial books like alot of Gram McNeill and Dan Abnett's stuff, it seems alot less so.

Sometimes you gotta kill alot of people to stay alive.

*coughcoughIplayspacemarinestoocoughcough*

I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

40k is definitely big on the "black and grey morality" trope from tvtropes. The picture I get of the Imperium is as a place where brutal, horrible things are done because the alternatives are frequently even worse.

As an example, suppose the sacrifices of psykers to the Golden throne were to stop, no more murdering 1000 people for the Emperor every day. Hooray for us, right? Except now the astronomicon goes out, all non-chaos warp travel breaks down, and the entire species gets eaten by bugs, Orks, etc. etc. Most of the worst of the Imperium can be pinned down to this kind of ugly necessity. The religious lunacy/oppression (it works on Daemons) the paranoia about aliens (The Eldar language should be called "Lies", and Ork honesty is even worse) and even the crushing taxes of the administratum ('cause I mean, fighting the whole galaxy at once is EXPENSIVE) all come down to human beings doing what they have to do to survive in horrible situations.

Now, that said, there are a few novels that aren't quite as "RAH RAH SPACE MARINES!" as the GK Omnibus you might like. Flesh and Iron by Henry Zou is a recent one. In older fair, you might be able to scrounge up a copy of "Pawns of Chaos"

Also, some groups will appear closer to good to certain people. Some people view the imperium as brutal and tau as peaceful; or you might view the imperium as being safe and the tau as being deceitful.

BluntmanDC wrote:BL does have some eldar novels i think, but most are written from the perspective of humans or superhumans.

Ive found Path of the Warrior (Eldar BL book) a little lack luster, though it does do a good job of explaining back story and is one of the few real glimpses into a xeno race without the IoM telling the whole story. You have to appreciate the fluff behind it to really enjoy it though

It sort of been touched on, but really you have to look past the actions to the motivation behind them; because if you're defining evil as doing lots of killing, all the races are equally bad. "Grim dark future there is only war..." and whatnot.

Chaos, Dark Eldar, and Necrons are 'the bad guys'. This is because they live to torment, kill, and destroy; their motivation is that this brings them pleasure. They know what they did/do is horrifically evil, and chose to do it anyway.

Tyranids and Orks are evil from the human (or really any other sapient race) perspecitve, because they too live to kill. However, they really exist outside morality, and probably find the idea odd if they can comprehend it at all. It's just in their nature to kill and destroy; they don't really have the mental capacity to delineate right and wrong, or choose between them.

This leaves the Imperium, Tau Empire, and Eldar as more or less 'good guys'. Certainly they are all much closer to a morally grey than in many works of fiction, but I personally like that. Alot of what they do is questionable, but that's kind of the way life is; I find the blinding white paragon stereotype to be a pretty big break for my suspension of disbelief. From our real life perspective killing thousands to keep the Emperor alive, insane xenophobia, repressive dogma, etc. aren't the actions of a good society. But just look at why these things are in place in the Imperium; without them the entire race falls apart, resulting in a much worse fate.

So yeah, basically we're supposed to root for the Imperium, or Eldar or Tau if you're a dirty xeno lover.


Or forget morality and embrace the suffering of all races; Commorragh needs feeding!

Awesome, thanks everyone, that clears up a lot.

To be clear, what was kind of confusing me is that the GK book talks about all this awful staff the IoM does, but still paints it as good. Like, it's almost a criticism of modern politics or certain societies in real life, but then it calls the IoM "good". I suppose I was just confused by that subtextual criticism and then the on-the-face praise.

But it makes more sense to me now, and perhaps thinking about the "subtext" of WH40k fiction is taking it too far.

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

yay! neutral evil ftw!

In any other fiction the IoM would be the bad guys. It says a lot about the universe that they are the good guys.

Famous lines from team america come to mind here. Can't repeat it here on a family friendly forum but basically, yes the imperium does bad things but they also stop the real evil bad guys from doing the real bad things, because no one else can, not on the scale the imperium does.

You have to realise that the Imperium is human, so it is far easier for us to sympathise with similar beings (by their very natuer they are often seen as the protaganist). That and much of what the Imperium does is necessary for mere survival. Nonetheless, the we are by no means coerced to take the veiw that the Imperium is 'good'. Almost any race can justify their role, sometimes moreso than the Imperium.

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:Anyway, maybe I'm thinking about it too much, but this is what I do. Are there any novels/fiction that take a more balanced approach or criticize the Imperium? Or even, are there any books not written from the Imperium's perspective?

Plenty. "The Path of the Warrior" by Gav Thorpe is written solely from an Eldar perspective on the Eldar way of life.

Think of it like a fight between Doctor Doom and Galactus. Even though Doctor Doom is evil, you'd still want him to win because he's just "be the boss" evil, not "eat people" evil. The Imperial leadership might be dominated by evil people, but they do protect the innocent, after a fashion. And the further down the ranks you go, the more good people you find.

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:I'm new to 40k and have just started painting up a SM army (yeah, I know, typical. What can I say? I'm a sucker for power armor). I saw the Grey Knights Omnibus at my library the other day and have started reading it. I like it, it's fun.

But. It's a little hard for me to swallow that, like, the Imperium are the good guys. Why? Why should the novel be from their perspective, why am I supposed to want them to win? They seem just as "evil" as Chaos (I mean, the Emperor has to have 1000 people murdered every day just so he can live).

Anyway, maybe I'm thinking about it too much, but this is what I do. Are there any novels/fiction that take a more balanced approach or criticize the Imperium? Or even, are there any books not written from the Imperium's perspective?

The Gaunts Ghosts series is pretty good at times following events in the imperium but at the same time showing what's wrong with it. As well as what can be right with it. Sometimes good people feel forced to do bad things. And bad people aren't necessarily bad. Or are they truly monsters? Even though they feel they're saving people? You decide.

It's your option, you can do what you like.

The younger teens are obviously meant to root for the IoM, that's why the Space Mariens were created as 'so awesome' to be an easy hero figure.

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

Neutral Good and true neutral FTW!

Wouldn't Chaos be Chaotic evil, while Deldar would be neutral evil?

EmilCrane wrote:
Neutral Good and true neutral FTW!

Maybe if you are talking 5th Edition Codexes...

Anyway, from what I have surmised after reading most of the fluff out there, and I know this is going to sound VERY out of tune, but...

Chaos Space Marines (NOT CHAOS DAEMONS) are probably the closest thing in the universe out there to "Good Guys" as they are literally sacrificing their souls so that they may influence the darkest of powers for that of their own species survival.

It is the intention, not the result, that drives morality, and it is in this, that the Chaos Space Marines (and possibly the Necrons) are the closest thing to a defined "traditional protagonist" in the 40k universe!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:It is the intention, not the result, that drives morality,

That's not entirely true. A depraved indifference to the consequences of your actions is also considered evil. For example, deliberately driving your car through a crowd and killing people is evil, even if you did not intend to cause them injury.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's your option, you can do what you like.

The younger teens are obviously meant to root for the IoM, that's why the Space Mariens were created as 'so awesome' to be an easy hero figure.

I don't think age has anything to do with it and your condescension is showing here.

The IoM represents humanity. It's a safe bet to assume that as humans, we'll root for the human in any given conflict.

Now many stories subvert that, by making the human totally unlikable and making the aliens extremely likable (Avatar comes to mind, but it's not the only one).

But in 40K, while the humans aren't likable, everything is so much worse.

When thinking about the evil the IoM does, it helps to remember that it is done out of necessity - the enemies are so numerous, so dangerous and so hellbent on the destruction of humanity that a softer regime simply wouldn't be able to survive.

AlexHolker wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:It is the intention, not the result, that drives morality,

That's not entirely true. A depraved indifference to the consequences of your actions is also considered evil. For example, deliberately driving your car through a crowd and killing people is evil, even if you did not intend to cause them injury.

That falls more under the realm of "Ignorant evil" in the sense that; unless you knew that the action of driving your car into a mob of people would kill them, you aren't actively committing evil.

Take for example the Prophet Muhammad. By most standards, his actions and his preachings would be considered benevolent (the 5 pillars and all that good stuff) and good, yet because of his actions, some groups of individuals take his benevolent teachings, and commit acts of great evil. Thus without his preachings, evil would not be committed, and as such he would be "Ignorantly evil" (as there is no way he could have known that people would take his preachings in such a misguided way!)

If the person were to know that they were committing evil, but did so with a sense of "good intentions" (typically a self-deception) that would be more akin to "insanity", which in a moral sense, would keep the person of committing with sound mental capacity and full moral responsibility of what they are doing.

For the same reason it is not considered rape when a dog starts randomly humping another dog(or person) (and thus, not immoral, but in many a sense, humorous, as YouTube would provide examples of) genuine ignorance of the results of ones actions would not be immoral.

The assumption of "depravity" in itself is actually more immoral then the actions of those whom have the best intentions.

"The Road to hell is paved with good intentions" is in itself infact more of a villainous statement then the 'evil' enacted by the individuals in question

IMO the means justifies the ends, at least in terms of Morality!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:
Neutral Good and true neutral FTW!

Maybe if you are talking 5th Edition Codexes...

Anyway, from what I have surmised after reading most of the fluff out there, and I know this is going to sound VERY out of tune, but...

Chaos Space Marines (NOT CHAOS DAEMONS) are probably the closest thing in the universe out there to "Good Guys" as they are literally sacrificing their souls so that they may influence the darkest of powers for that of their own species survival.

It is the intention, not the result, that drives morality, and it is in this, that the Chaos Space Marines (and possibly the Necrons) are the closest thing to a defined "traditional protagonist" in the 40k universe!

.... CSM sacrificing themselves for the own species' survival? That might be true of renegade chapters, but not true chaos chapters. One of the defining characteristics of chaos is its self-serving nature. I don't think Abaddon sold his soul because he's a altruist who loves humanity

Abaddon sold his soul because he supported Horus and all his deeds, thus following Horus into worshipping Chaos instead of having fun with the IoM and the Emperor, didn't he?

I do get the point, whilst some renegade chapters sacrifice their very lives to protect what they think is true, there are also those which, as ^ has said turned renegade to serve their own needs and wants.

Tarkand wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It's your option, you can do what you like.

The younger teens are obviously meant to root for the IoM, that's why the Space Mariens were created as 'so awesome' to be an easy hero figure.

I don't think age has anything to do with it and your condescension is showing here.

The IoM represents humanity. It's a safe bet to assume that as humans, we'll root for the human in any given conflict.

Now many stories subvert that, by making the human totally unlikable and making the aliens extremely likable (Avatar comes to mind, but it's not the only one).

But in 40K, while the humans aren't likable, everything is so much worse.

When thinking about the evil the IoM does, it helps to remember that it is done out of necessity - the enemies are so numerous, so dangerous and so hellbent on the destruction of humanity that a softer regime simply wouldn't be able to survive.

Well, I do think that age has something to do with it.

I'm a human and I don't root for the humans in this game. I'm not interested in a collection of genes. I am interested in ideas.

I regard the IoM as a dark joke, one side of the coin that has Chaos on the other.

Necrons are evil because they kill all life out of jealousy and hate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I personally think that eldar and tau are closer to good because they're not zealots like the imperium. No one thinks terrorists are good people.

Join the Eldar and dont look back.

40k is all about being grim and dark. And war, can't forget about war.

There are no good guys and there are no evil guys. There's a bunch of different factions all wanting to kill/eat/enslave/conquer/purge everyone else. Trying to break it down into who you should root for is an exercise in futility. You should be rooting for never having to visit the 40k universe.

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

That's not really correct, I'd think all of the Races, except Orks,Tyranids and maybe Necrons would be categorized somewhere under Evil. Chaos Forces and Dark Eldar under Chaotic Evil, Imperium of Man under Lawful Evil, Tau Lawful Evil, Eldar Neutral Evil. Necrons as True Neutral because they just want everything reverted back to nothing, Tyranids as True Neutral because they are just doing what they are created for and the Orks as Chaotic Neutral, because they dont care who you are they are gonna fight you.

BrotherStynier wrote:

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

That's not really correct, I'd think all of the Races, except Orks,Tyranids and maybe Necrons would be categorized somewhere under Evil. Chaos Forces and Dark Eldar under Chaotic Evil, Imperium of Man under Lawful Evil, Tau Lawful Evil, Eldar Neutral Evil. Necrons as True Neutral because they just want everything reverted back to nothing, Tyranids as True Neutral because they are just doing what they are created for and the Orks as Chaotic Neutral, because they dont care who you are they are gonna fight you.

And that is wrong.
The Tau aren't nearly evil enough to be Lawful Evil. Same with Eldar. The Necrons are malicious, and Deldar are Lawful Evil.

Grakmar wrote:40k is all about being grim and dark. And war, can't forget about war.

There are no good guys and there are no evil guys. There's a bunch of different factions all wanting to kill/eat/enslave/conquer/purge everyone else. Trying to break it down into who you should root for is an exercise in futility. You should be rooting for never having to visit the 40k universe.

This here, in my humble opinion is the most probable answer. You can't see a faction as evil unless you're against it. If you're biased towards one side, of course you'll have another side that you want to oppose. IoM-Chaos and everyone else, Eldar-Necrons.

The average humans are ok but the IoM isn't exactly the nicest. While there is fluff showing the IoM as good they tend to focus on the good individuals rather than the IoM (it's pretty hard to justify what they do- even some Inquisitors don't like it). The reason the GK didn't care that the IoM was doing the wrong this is because they are SM and are therefore brainwashed into supporting the IoM.

The IoM is portrayed as good because they are human. They are meant to be the side you support because they are easiest to relate to (for most people). While they aren't as bad as some of the forces they aren't the best either. Some people will justify what they do because they want humans to win and others will judge them on how they act.

Usually you have the people who support humans siding with the IoM and the rest with Tau or Eldar. You can see this from the many threads which look at who is the least evil faction ( you may want to look at thses threads if your interested in finding out the reasons people support each faction). IIRC the most recent poll had the top 3 factions as Tau (1st), Eldar (2nd) and IoM (3rd).

Well, I do think that age has something to do with it.

I'm a human and I don't root for the humans in this game. I'm not interested in a collection of genes. I am interested in ideas.

I regard the IoM as a dark joke, one side of the coin that has Chaos on the other.

While I don't know about age having an effect I agree with genes being irrelevant, I will suport those with the best beliefs.

The Eldar, Tau or even Orks are just an idealized version of humans in their concept , and culturally closer enough to the humanity so you can identify with them and their role in the universe, so yes, the fact that the Imperium are "true" humans is quite irrelevant here.

You don't have to root for IoM, unless you want to burn as a heretic . I personal favor the IoM cause Im human and want to see humans win to be honest and Ive always liked there structure of being like a futuristic Roman Empire and how you can find hints of all the great empires(Britain, German, Mongol, etc.) in there fluff , Also as was stated earlier basically any faction can justify there actions just as country's do today thus I find it pointless to take today's morality views and compare it to the 40k universe IMO. As killing, genocide, and such is probably a day to day practice just as to are society its quite opposite as we try to preserve life by almost any means necessary and only result to violence as a last resort(mind you this is minus all the undesirables of society of course).

Mr Nobody wrote:Necrons are evil because they kill out of jealousy and hate.

I truly for not understand where a current hate could come from within the necron force. At a time in the distant past they transformed their mortal shells for unthinking and unfeeling, souless casings. These new bodies retain no memories of the past life save for the necron lords who seem to concern themselves little with the actual population of a world. In the most recent necron novel I could find, dead men walking, the necrons all seem to simply ignore civilians save for flayed ones.
If speaking about the c'tan however, one cannot deny that they have more evil interests though they to seem to mainly kill to feed, they just toy with the food first.

Klawz wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

That's not really correct, I'd think all of the Races, except Orks,Tyranids and maybe Necrons would be categorized somewhere under Evil. Chaos Forces and Dark Eldar under Chaotic Evil, Imperium of Man under Lawful Evil, Tau Lawful Evil, Eldar Neutral Evil. Necrons as True Neutral because they just want everything reverted back to nothing, Tyranids as True Neutral because they are just doing what they are created for and the Orks as Chaotic Neutral, because they dont care who you are they are gonna fight you.

And that is wrong.
The Tau aren't nearly evil enough to be Lawful Evil. Same with Eldar. The Necrons are malicious, and Deldar are Lawful Evil.

Didn't say it was perfect. Still I was under the impression that most Necrons had no free will that they were under the leader ship of Necron Lords that have gone mad each doing his own thing, at least according to the 5th Ed Rule book, and since each Necron Lord is so different I think they are True Neutral, failing that, due to them being hell bent on killing off all Life because it stops the warp they could be Lawful Evil.

As far as the Eldar and Tau its my personal opinion based off of their actions that they are Lawful Evil though I'd be willing to call them Lawful Neutral.

Grakmar wrote

There are no good guys and there are no evil guys.

I agree that there are no good guys, and you can argue about most of the races as to whether they're evil. But IMO the Dark Eldar are flat out evil, and so is Slaneesh.

This all reminds me of a few weeks ago when I watched a movie on Hitler called Hitler: Rise of Evil or something rather. Anyways, I felt bad for him when I saw him get shot, and you know kind of rooting him on. Before any of you point fingers and claim me to be a nazi, please just keep reading. I think the reason I felt bad when he was hurt and what not was because it started off with him being a little boy, and kind of watched him grow up and see the gak he got from people.

What I'm trying to say is that because we see all from his point of view, we see him as the protagonist. It would kinda be like a book starting off with the Dark Eldar, and you see them being killed by space marines and what not, and all of their struggles. So it would only be natural seeing them as the good guys because it is from their perspective, so the same goes with the IoM..

Thank you for reading the whole thing.

EDIT:

Something else just came to me. I think this is all really a matter of perspective. If 10 people see a homeless person steal food from a stand, half of those ten might think he is a good guy, he is just doing what he needs to. The other half might immediately think of him as a malicious thief. So I guess it just depends on your point of view. In my point of view, Tau break their pink manicured nails when they pull their trigger on their pulse rifle. That is why the crisis suits have guns located other than in their hands, because who wants to go back to that place and get their nails done AGAIN? Does this have to do with good and evil? No, but that is my perspective on the tau.

A Black Ram wrote
What I'm trying to say is that because we see all from his point of view, we see him as the protagonist. It would kinda be like a book starting off with the Dark Eldar, and you see them being killed by space marines and what not, and all of their struggles.

Ok, I can see what you're saying. But regardless of circumstances or upbringing, some actions a (almost) universally viewed as evil. Hitler may have had a crappy life, but his actions were still evil. Same thing with the Dark Eldar, (using your example of SM killing they're folks) that doesn't justify them raping and torturing anyone unlucky enough to get caught by them.

IMO some actions in the 40K universe can be labeled as Evil, whether you apply real life morals or fantasy morals.

Grass4hopper wrote:

A Black Ram wrote
What I'm trying to say is that because we see all from his point of view, we see him as the protagonist. It would kinda be like a book starting off with the Dark Eldar, and you see them being killed by space marines and what not, and all of their struggles.

Ok, I can see what you're saying. But regardless of circumstances or upbringing, some actions a (almost) universally viewed as evil. Hitler may have had a crappy life, but his actions were still evil. Same thing with the Dark Eldar, (using your example of SM killing they're folks) that doesn't justify them raping and torturing anyone unlucky enough to get caught by them.

IMO some actions in the 40K universe can be labeled as Evil, whether you apply real life morals or fantasy morals.

To save a long paragraph, let me sum it up:

You are correct.

I think 40k is less black and white, but instead black and gray, with a tiny hint of white.

It's a matter of where you are standing when you view this, then?

To paraphrase (because I to lazy to cut-n-paste than many quotes) more people are going to identify with the IoM, because we're human. Others however will root for another race, I like the Nids because they're motivation is the instinct to survive and reproduce. But that's just my personal opinion, and other people root for other races for there own reasons.

Most people root for IoM, but root for who you like. There is not wrong answer.

Well, my guess for why should the books be written from IoM perspective is, well.... The Eldar mind is far too complex, Orks are... Well, simple. Chaos is a viable option, if you're depraved enough to read something that was spat out of a CSM's head. Tau are also possible perspectives, not sure if it's used elsewhere than in Fire Warrior, which is not a book. Dark Eldar. Again, depravity. Tyranids. Do I really have to explain?

Be free to point out any wrongnesses of my sleep-depraved, headache-induced post.

It isn't about good and evil. It's about survival. IoM has done what it has too to survive which many would say is evil but when compared with the alternative it becomes the better choice.
Many races might be very nice but survival has forced them into doing 'evil' things.
Chaos-Its followers need to kill otherwise they are turned on by their gods.
IoM-Covered.
Orks-If they didn't fight others they would simply destroy themselves.
Eldar-Slightly obvious
Dark Eldar-Also obvious
Tyranids-Need to feed just the food happens to be entire planeatary populations.
Tau-They were trying to establish themselves but ever since the Tyranid invasion they have begun to fight more for survival than empire building.
Chaos Daemons-While this looks pretty damn evil as they technically can't die the gods need to create destruction etc to make sure they are followed and worshipped otherwise they lose power and presumably they die eventually.
Necrons-The Star gods need to feed, admittedly they could eat stars but that would still kill people.

Have i missed any?

I don't agree with you on the Orks, Chaos and Dark Eldar. With Chaos that was their choice entirely, and if they decided to lay down their sword at one point and become a hermit or whatever then the Chaos Gods wouldn't go hunting them down.

As for Dark Eldar it was also their choice. Sure, they can claim later in life they need it just to survive and get them by but in their younger years there was no such thirst and they enjoyed the suffering they cuased just a little too much.

Orks wouldn't destroy themselves, in fact they thrive on carnage even if that means civil wars.

Chaos Deamons ARE evil, the very essence of negative and foul emotions.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't agree with you on the Orks, Chaos and Dark Eldar. With Chaos that was their choice entirely, and if they decided to lay down their sword at one point and become a hermit or whatever then the Chaos Gods wouldn't go hunting them down.

As for Dark Eldar it was also their choice. Sure, they can claim later in life they need it just to survive and get them by but in their younger years there was no such thirst and they enjoyed the suffering they cuased just a little too much.

Orks wouldn't destroy themselves, in fact they thrive on carnage even if that means civil wars.

Chaos Deamons ARE evil, the very essence of negative and foul emotions.

I'll admit those were the ones i viewed as the most tenuous.

Tyranids could be viewed as selfish enough to waste resources (sustaing biomass) at the expense of others. Though that's a feeble arguement, given that most animals do the same when they can. It does depend whether you pay any heed to an Aristotle view on life "A 'good' X is 'good' becuase is does what X is supposed to do".

Tyranids aren't evil. They are bad (from the perspective of most inhabitants of the galaxy) but the only diffence between them and other animals is that they are far more successful. They do what any animl would do if it had the ability to take whatever it wanted.

Think about humans, we see ourselves as more intelligent than all other animals but we are still using resources at an unsustainable rate. The Tyranids just take this to the extreme.

purplefood wrote:It isn't about good and evil. It's about survival. IoM has done what it has too to survive which many would say is evil but when compared with the alternative it becomes the better choice.
Many races might be very nice but survival has forced them into doing 'evil' things.
Chaos-Its followers need to kill otherwise they are turned on by their gods.
IoM-Covered.
Orks-If they didn't fight others they would simply destroy themselves.
Eldar-Slightly obvious
Dark Eldar-Also obvious
Tyranids-Need to feed just the food happens to be entire planeatary populations.
Tau-They were trying to establish themselves but ever since the Tyranid invasion they have begun to fight more for survival than empire building.
Chaos Daemons-While this looks pretty damn evil as they technically can't die the gods need to create destruction etc to make sure they are followed and worshipped otherwise they lose power and presumably they die eventually.
Necrons-The Star gods need to feed, admittedly they could eat stars but that would still kill people.

Have i missed any?

The central joke of 40K is that there isn't any significant difference between the IoM and Chaos, except that one side has spikes and the other has spiky winged eagles.

The IoM abuses its population in the cause of defending it against the evils of Chaos just as much as Chaos abuses its population in the cause of bringing down the corrupt Imperial regime.

In the HH novels, quite a few of the worlds rediscovered during the Great Crusade are depicted at length as peaceful and content, with beautiful cities and civilisations.

And then the Legions show up and things start exploding.

It's handled as if we're supposed to cheer on individuals rather than the IoM.

I root for the Imperium because almost everything in the galaxy will try to kill you or enslave you,IoM is at least human.

I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.

Hey, I'm a loyalist and even I think that's judging them harshly. But I also know the Tau can't keep up their idealism if they want to survive into the next millenium.

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.

Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.

Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

That's 'cos awesome looking black leather trenchcoats are made from cows which the Tau are against killing for some reason...

purplefood wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.

Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

That's 'cos awesome looking black leather trenchcoats are made from cows which the Tau are against killing for some reason...

Greater Good = Hinduism?

Hmmm, and Hinduism also has a caste system, with spiritual leaders (insert Ethereals here) at the head, and the warrior caste not too far from the top either.

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.

Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Yet they commit genocide on Nimbosa.

IvanTih wrote:I root for the Imperium because almost everything in the galaxy will try to kill you or enslave you,IoM is at least human.

Imperium of Man: Better the devil you know .

Hans Chung-Otterson wrote:the Emperor has to have 1000 people murdered every day just so he can live.

The Imperium is about the ends justifying the means: In this example, if these people weren't "murdered" the Imperium would lose the astronomican and thus warp travel... meaning doom for trillions.

If humanity didn't resort to its grimdark orwellian and theocratic nature, it'd cave in on itself. It's all about the survival of our species... So yeah, they're the "good guys" in my book.

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.

Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Yet they commit genocide on Nimbosa.

Your point? Because that's pretty normal in 40k.

I love the fact that there is no pretence about there being an answer for this.

Take Star Wars for example, we know who is good and who is bad. But when you watch Clerks or Chasing Amy you start to realise there was more to it. At best the rebel alliance were terrorists at worst they were racist ;-)

However in 40k there is none of that, all races are capable of deplorable acts and you cant understand why all do what they do.

This is such a great topic.

The problem is that we are seeing everything from the morality we live with/in (that is, well-developed, fairly prosperous, by-and-large Western, more-or-less liberal democracies) We can say that what the Imperium does (genocide, pogrom, persecution) in 40k is "wrong" because in the real world magic/psychic powers aren't real and (in my opinion, at least) the world's worst evil isn't the Devil in Hell, it's man's ability to be bastards to eachother. So in the real world, religious persecution and racial wars and genocide and all the rest are obviously bad things. No doubt there.

But, in a world like 40k, what place can liberal democratic "rights" have? The idea that your political/religious opinions are your own is pretty well predicated on the assumption that your thinking what you want won't cause a thousand foot tall demon to suddenly burst from your skin and lay waste to the city (because in the real world things like that can't happen). Our liberal values are predicated on a non-magical world. But in the world of 40k where demons and psychic powers/magic abilities are real, a weak willed person with psychic powers even THINKING about a demon can summon that demon from the abyss, as can chanting the wrong prayer to the wrong god.

In a world like 40k, where the objective realities are fundamentally not our own I don't know if you can judge from our standards.

So I would say that yes, we are meant to root for the Imperium. Bad as it is, the alternative is worse. Welcome to flavor country.

Doctor Optimal wrote
So in the real world, religious persecution and racial wars and genocide and all the rest are obviously bad things.

There is no real religion or government I can recall that hasn't caused some form of atrocity in the past (less in the past for some), but everyones done it. They don't like to talk about it, or sometime even acknowledge that it happened. The is the grimdark reality of our world. It's maybe not as extreme as the 40K universe, but it's there.

Like Doctor Optimal says 40K not real cause it has magic and such, but it is realistic in it' brutality. Not real, but realistic.

I like this topic. And I think that chart that was up a few pages back is spot on as far as I can tell. Nids which aren’t on it would go with the orks since they are both fuelled by instinct not moral.

And before anybody starts arguing abut what the tau are, look at my sig.

Wouldn't Tau be lawful good?

Mr Nobody wrote:Wouldn't Tau be lawful good?

that’s what the chart says.

They were like that when they first set out but by the time there 5th ed comes out, who knows what they have been up to.

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.

Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Yet they commit genocide on Nimbosa.

Your point? Because that's pretty normal in 40k.

They're just as bad as the IoM.

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.

Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Yet they commit genocide on Nimbosa.

Your point? Because that's pretty normal in 40k.

They're just as bad as the IoM.

No, the imperium does so because they're zealots, the Tau, whether they're right or wrong, do it because they believe it is for the best logical solution. Our argument has now come full circle.

Well...being not so serious in regards to faction choice... humans in w40k are humans today, only multiplied by 100,000,000,000,000 etc.
humanity on steroids.

Tau are probably the least Evil of all the playable races.

Demiurg strike me as the most friendly though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:I root for the tau because they're not zealots.

Yet they are also as bad as the Imperium.

Well, they don't have commissars and that's good enough for me.

Yet they commit genocide on Nimbosa.

Your point? Because that's pretty normal in 40k.

They're just as bad as the IoM.

No, the imperium does so because they're zealots, the Tau, whether they're right or wrong, do it because they believe it is for the best logical solution. Our argument has now come full circle.

That whole thing was a Tau commander acting against the will of the Tau. IoM is more evil as they hate all xenos.

Gotta love the "Tau aren't zealots" line when the whole of Tau society is ordered by Ethereal pheromones. Admittedly, the Ethereals then act in the way they think is best for the Tau, but they're also hopelessly naive about the horrors of the universe, which causes significantly more suffering for them than when the Imperium brutally excises heretics or mutants, or hunts down Xenos. The Imperial response to seeing an Eldar is "Shoot it," the Tau's is "Pay it in bodies, then lose an entire world when we don't give it an Ethereal". Imperial response to Necrons is "run away, then blow the planet apart just be sure," the Tau's response is "get brutally slaughtered by welcoming it as your savior".


The Imperium is no better or worse than whatever localized element happens to rule a given area. The Imperium as a whole Does Not Care What Happens To You, so long as its ends get met. As long as you're not denouncing the Emperor, or consorting with Daemons, you're probably going to be fine, unless your society is ruled over by some corrupt local dictator, or you're a hideous mutant on all but a few worlds. Even dealing with Xenos is frequently accepted, such as the lord general and Cain in For the Emperor, or Eisenhorn and Ravenor in Malleus.

As for the annihilating worlds thing, that's only used when the consequences of not doing so are infinitely worse than any other option. Leave a genestealer cult infestation unmolested and everyone on the world will end up eaten alive by tyranids, who will then have their numbers bolstered as they move on to other worlds. If the cult has gone beyond the level where it can be excised manually, the population is too far gone to avoid that, so their lives are forfeit anyways. A world given over to chaos? What other choice is there, unless there are valuable facilities on the world? The population is a lost cause, ridden with mutations, psyker witches, and daemons, trying to force them back into the fold would just result in a hotbed of heresy to be exported to other worlds, and wiping them away in one fell swoop is a kinder fate than letting them all hack each other apart to summon hordes of daemons into the materium.


What's all this about Dark Eldar being evil? They live in a social darwinist society of courtiers, which creates, as per Istvaanian doctrine, brutally efficient tacticians and warriors (look, for comparison, at deathworlders or Cadians, as compared to other humans). As far as the raiding and bloodsport goes, that's literally required to keep them alive (Craftworld Eldar and Exodites all have means of protection against having Slaanesh devour their souls, which also entail rather more ascetic lifestyles, and it should be noted that neither are exactly thriving like the Dark Eldar are...), and when it comes down to it they still take action to prevent the obliteration of other factions at each other's hands, since a dead galaxy is awfully boring after all.


Chaos, on the other hand, is comprised entirely of lies and Stupid Evil minions ("Let's sacrifice a bunch of people to summon a giant daemon to eat us and kill everyone!" "Yaaay!").


Orks and Tyranids, while not truly evil, are essentially noxious pests that are hazards to everything else (other than the Dark Eldar, who can just sit in Commoragh and watch the fireworks), and should be purged with fire.


Craftworld Eldar are manipulative, self-centered ascetics who are collapsing under the weight of their own inability to recover from things that happened ten thousand years prior. The Dark Eldar and Exodites both managed to get over it and thrive, the former more than the latter, since the Exodites don't spread, or fight for anything, or attempt to fix any problems in the galaxy; they just sort of sit around and live in stone-age stasis in the middle of nowhere.

You are supposed to root for Slaanesh

If you root for Slaa-nesh youre supposed to rot in hell.

rooting for a very clearly stated bad guy is well... bad.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote: A lot of good stuff

Well thought-out and nicely laid-down.

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

http://static02.mediaite.com/geekosystem/uploads/2010/03/warhammer-40k-alignment-chart-550x440.jpg

Far be it from me to make an argument about an out of date and overly simplified morality scheme, but that is such a mischaracterization.

For example, Sisters would probably be lawful good, actually-- they do far more as a whole to help the average person of hte Imperium than the Space Marines do. Sure, a Sister Hospitalier is quite quick to kill a heretic, but they do so out of mercy, because it's better in their view for the heretic to die and be cleansed in death, than to live a life of the wretched and profane. To most people, the Hospitalier are utter saints, and the Sisters of Battle are protectors of the faithful. The Sisters of Battle are, for morality's purposes, the 40k equivalent of DnD paladins, while Hospitaliers, Famulous, and Dialogous would be the equivalent of clerics and scholars following the same deity.

Space Marines are closer to lawful neutral than anything, because they're neither good nor evil, they're just a weapon to be used, following long traditions and ancient rules more than any sense of morality, with morality based entirely on each individual chapter's culture.

And so on and so forth.

Melissia wrote:

chowderhead13 wrote:I use this chart as a reference. As I say, Pick your poison...

http://static02.mediaite.com/geekosystem/uploads/2010/03/warhammer-40k-alignment-chart-550x440.jpg

Far be it from me to make an argument about an out of date and overly simplified morality scheme, but that is such a mischaracterization.

For example, Sisters would probably be lawful good, actually-- they do far more as a whole to help the average person of hte Imperium than the Space Marines do. Sure, a Sister Hospitalier is quite quick to kill a heretic, but they do so out of mercy, because it's better in their view for the heretic to die and be cleansed in death, than to live a life of the wretched and profane. To most people, the Hospitalier are utter saints, and the Sisters of Battle are protectors of the faithful. The Sisters of Battle are, for morality's purposes, the 40k equivalent of DnD paladins, while Hospitaliers, Famulous, and Dialogous would be the equivalent of clerics and scholars following the same deity.

Space Marines are closer to lawful neutral than anything, because they're neither good nor evil, they're just a weapon to be used, following long traditions and ancient rules more than any sense of morality, with morality based entirely on each individual chapter's culture.

And so on and so forth.

This is completely true, if you read the alpha HH book they were told to rebel wioth Horus but were appalled by the idea that a rebellion could happen. The Knights of Blood still claim to fight the IoMs cause yet in the IoMs eyes they are renegades. In the DA book by Gav Thorpe there is an orginal DA (Now interred at the Rock) who broke Imperial laws but in his eyes he was continuing the crusade started by the emporer over 10,000 years ago but not in the yes of the eyes of the current system. He also claimed that those true to the Lion were the ones cast out. (crazy i know)

In the 40k universe there are very few cases of black and white differences. Sisters and Puritan INquisitors are the purest white you will find in the IoM, Marines vary according to their gene seed. ie Wolves are very grery meanwhile BA(Exclude the genetic flaw which is helps marines understand they aren't perfect) and Ultranoobs are as white as you'll find. Chaos vary from grey to blackest balck. eldar try and stay as white as possible whereas DE dont give a flying f**k.
NIds and Orks are purely driving by a hive mind and hunger for war respectively.

Tau claim to be white as snow yet have very grey areas and are nearly as bad as the IoM

squats never hurt anyone, cept for the nids and inquistion

Well, you can always trust a Nid to eat you, an Ork to smash you up, Eldar to use you for their own means, and a Daemon to do something very nasty to you, yo momma and everyone else.

I like to think csm are the real good guys, simply cos i dont like the bueracracy of the iom, too much like real governments.

As opposed to the bureaucracy of Chaos, which is closer to that of a third world country (those with the most guns and most power feth over everyone else)?

I wouldn't call SoB white; I've only ever seen them portrayed as the "burn a city to kill one man, without even trying to... not kill everything else in the general proximity..." types (except the veteran assigned to the Schola Progenium on Perlia in Cain's Last Stand, who acted like all the other aging soldiers there: drinking, smoking, and gambling while going on about old war stories, and whom was explicitly described as being an exception to the normal SoB). That goes double for radically Puritan Inquisitors: Monodominants, Libricars and their ilk.

The Inquisition itself varies from obliteration of anything even remotely near their target as S.O.P. ("nuke them from orbit, the Emperor will recognize his own."), to more levelheaded situational action and pragmatism ("maybe I shouldn't kill every xeno and heretic I find, because a trail of bodies will tip off my actual target..."), to "what do you mean I can't trust what daemons say? I'm totally threatening them during interrogation!" With the Ordo Hereticus seeming to fall into the first more often than not, the Ordo Xenos into the middle one, and the Ordo Malleus into the last. With a plethora of exceptions and variations for all of them, of course.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I wouldn't call SoB white; I've only ever seen them portrayed as the "burn a city to kill one man, without even trying to... not kill everything else in the general proximity..." types

That's because most writers are incompetent, and because the story wasn't about Sisters they made them look bad so that the protagonists could look good.. Sisters of Battle are stated to be shining examples of all that is good about humanity, and Sisters Hospitaller in particular are consistently described as universally beloved by the Imperial population.

I could have sworn Faith and Fire, a book revolving entirely around them, had them literally burning a city in the hunt for a single man; they seize a city in the hunt for a single rogue psyker (the most sympathetic character of the book, considering his motivations are "don't get tortured to death" and "stop the actual villain of the story"), where the citizens welcomed them as liberating heroes, and were promptly hosed with promethium for no given reason (they also failed to accomplish the whole reason for marching on it in the first place, when the psyker flees in a light racing aircraft)...

Mind, I didn't say anything about how they're perceived in-universe, where I get the impression that at the very least the average Imperial citizen shares your views on the matter, only that when it comes to taking military action, they make the Inquisition look careful and lenient by comparison, rather precluding them being an example of "white".


Really, trying to ascribe a status of "white" to any faction is an exercise in futility; the scale starts at a ruthless, pragmatic grey and slides towards "so, why are we trying to summon this daemon, again?" black.

You realize that a single rogue psyker, especially an unsanctioned one, can damn an entire world to daemonic infestation?

Is that attested as having ever actually happened in any book? A psyker might be possessed, or reek havoc on a small scale, but I've never encountered a reference to an instance of a single unsanctioned psyker becoming a portal through which a proper "daemonic infestation" could flow.

Which is sort of beside the point of "they know where the psyker will be, and decide to burn all the civilians who hailed them as liberators and saints alive just because they happened to be passing by them on the way to the palace."

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Is that attested as having ever actually happened in any book? A psyker might be possessed, or reek havoc on a small scale, but I've never encountered a reference to an instance of a single unsanctioned psyker becoming a portal through which a proper "daemonic infestation" could flow.

Any psyker's soul is a potential doorway to the warp.

Dark Heresy's quote for the Imperial Psyker class says it best: "Imagine knowing there was a door to the realm of Daemons, and the slightest inattention on your behalf would see them batter it down and rip you to shreds. Now imagine that door is inside your head. That's what being a psyker is like."

Indeed, the book later states exactly what you said has never been stated before: "Despite the benefits that they bring to the Imperium, an undiscovered or unsanctioned psyker can place entire populations and planets in danger. Psykers' essences glow brightly in the warp, like bait on a line, and they draw malignant entities to that glow. Psykers weak in mind or untrained in protective arts can be easily tainted, and in the worst cases possessed by daemonic entities and used as a gateway between realspace and the warp."

So yes. One single mistake by a psyker can damn an entire world, especially an untrained and unsanctioned one.

You root for the imperium cause you are human!!

Okay, I don't like the Tau at all that being said I have to see they are probably the closest to being good, yes they have cleansed worlds, but not like the IoM and they generally try to conquer planets via subterfuge as opposed to cleaning the planet via Exterminatus, but this is just my opinion

If the Imperium is left standing alone in the galaxy, humanity would have a chance to right itself.

If Chaos wins once and for all, ... Not so much of a chance!

One reason I really enjoy the whole 40K universe fluff is that it doesn't have any good guys - except the helpless masses, maybe. Everyone with even the least bit of influence in the IoM is a murderer, criminal or psychopath in some way.

At the very least, everyone of them is willing to kill other people to further their own ends or to give the IoM (as in: the state, not humanity) a better chance to survive.

Just like in the real world.

I particularly enjoy dystopian fiction, however, because it allows for believable protagonists and antagonists, due to having more shades of grey. Classic black/white-evil/good stories almost always forget to emphasize that the heroes kill loads and loads of uncharacterized guys who fight for the antagonist - those heroes are evil, too, but due to dramatic reasons, they are lauded for what they do.

Well there aren't many Xeno or Chaos books out there, but there are.

For example, the Fire Warrior novel (the only novel with the perspective of the Tau as far as I know) is about the perspective of a Tau Fire Warrior named Shas'El T'au Kais who is sent with a group of other Fire Warriors to save an Ethereal who was kidnapped (Xenonapped? lol) by the Ultramarines.

I wouldn't necessarily call all Chaos evil. In Pawns of Chaos we had happy Tzeentch worshipping village folk, whom seemed to get along pretty well. Until Imperial forces pillaged their world that is. But Tzeentch cared enough to send a Greater Deamon of Tzeentch to go out and save them.

They're happy because they haven't seen the true face of Chaos.

If you want proof that Chaos is evil, go read the description of a daemonworld in Codex: Chaos Daemons

Melissia wrote:They're happy because they haven't seen the true face of Chaos.

If you want proof that Chaos is evil, go read the description of a daemonworld in Codex: Chaos Daemons

Chaos isn't evil, it is chaos.

corpsesarefun wrote:

Melissia wrote:They're happy because they haven't seen the true face of Chaos.

If you want proof that Chaos is evil, go read the description of a daemonworld in Codex: Chaos Daemons

Chaos isn't evil, it is chaos.

You mean, the endless torture and murder of innocents isn't evil? The eternal rape of the souls of Eldar (including those who had no connection with the previous empire) isn't evil? That constantly causing rebellions, and war, and bloodshed simply for the sake of it isn't evil? The average Chaos worshipper isn't necessarily evil, but Chaos itself? Perverting everything about a people, destroying their culture so completely and utterly that they become nothing more than spawn of chaos (I should point out to you that even the Imperium allows its people to keep their own planetary cultures as long as they pay their taxes and give lip service to the Ecclesiarchy)? I think the Chaos Gods are indisputably evil. Every single one of them revels in harming others, and were any one of them put into a human body on modern Earth, they would be considered an embodiment of evil to rival or exceed any of our current symbols of evil. Khorne would murder countless people, simply for the sake of seeing their blood and gazing upon their skulls. Nurgle would develop and spread diseases intentionally, just for the sake of doing so, just to watch people wallow in disease and suffer. Slaanesh would become a hated sexual predator known across the world for his/her extreme deviancy and hedonism, where everything is pleasure for him/her. Tzeentch would overthrow governments and plunge the world into eternal war, causing wholesale slaughter and destruction just for the sake of doing so.

These are not forces of nature, but intelligent, powerful creatures with their own desires and willpower, who consider everyone else nothing but playtoys. They are the cruel, laughing gods that manipulate the entire galaxy into eternal war and bloodshed for their amusement.

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Is that attested as having ever actually happened in any book? A psyker might be possessed, or reek havoc on a small scale, but I've never encountered a reference to an instance of a single unsanctioned psyker becoming a portal through which a proper "daemonic infestation" could flow.

Any psyker's soul is a potential doorway to the warp.

Dark Heresy's quote for the Imperial Psyker class says it best: "Imagine knowing there was a door to the realm of Daemons, and the slightest inattention on your behalf would see them batter it down and rip you to shreds. Now imagine that door is inside your head. That's what being a psyker is like."

Indeed, the book later states exactly what you said has never been stated before: "Despite the benefits that they bring to the Imperium, an undiscovered or unsanctioned psyker can place entire populations and planets in danger. Psykers' essences glow brightly in the warp, like bait on a line, and they draw malignant entities to that glow. Psykers weak in mind or untrained in protective arts can be easily tainted, and in the worst cases possessed by daemonic entities and used as a gateway between realspace and the warp."

So yes. One single mistake by a psyker can damn an entire world, especially an untrained and unsanctioned one.

Of course, mechanically, in Dark Heresy the worst thing that can happen is the psyker becomes a daemonhost, with odds that are worse than .6%, and they're only that high because it would never appear in the game otherwise. In fluff terms, even the far more likely "merely" exploding from uncontrolled energies coursing through the psyker has about the same chance of occurring as burning a city to the ground does of summoning a pack of khornate daemons. Despite the official line of hunting them because they might become a portal to the warp, the real reasons appear to be mainly a mix of "we need them to power the golden throne," "we need sanctioned psykers, and someone has to catch them in the first place," and "psykers, being generally unstable types, are likely to hurt people around them without meaning to, or cause widespread destruction if they do."

Then there's the matter that it would seem most pysker Inquisitors are technically unsanctioned, having been found by another Inquisitor and deemed too potentially useful a tool to turn over to the black ships, where they may end up dead or ultimately assigned to someplace other than the Inquisitor's service.

When it comes down to it, the SoB practically embody the "burn them all, the Emperor will recognize his own," mentality of the more psychotic elements of the Inquisition. Your average Inquisitor finds a way to hunt down heretical cults without just killing everything in the general vicinity "just to be sure," while the Sororitas will find a way to kill everything in the general vicinity because "being within range of my flamer is a deadly sin."

Ironically, they're worshiped as near-saintly figures, while the Inquisition is viewed as the "kills everyone they meet, 'just to be sure'" types. Of course, the space marines are also seen as generally important and useful, despite their being vastly outnumbered by planets in the Imperium, and outnumbered by the Imperial Guard by something on the order of at least a billion to one...



The Chaos Gods themselves don't seem to actually care one way or another about the materium; they're more preoccupied scheming against one another and living it up in their own planes. Their servants, on the other hand, tend to scheme to bring daemons into the materium for their own gain (making them Stupid Evil (which even references the servants of chaos as examples of the trope) more often than not), or to gain favor with other, higher ranking disciples of the Gods.

Khorne is insane to the point of killing anything that gets close enough to attack. Nurgle is generally portrayed as jolly and good natured, only appearing evil from the point of view of those who have a vested interest in not seeing virulent diseases spread about. Slaanesh just sort of sits around as its daemons try to entertain it, with the whole "devouring the souls of the eldar" thing more a symptom of its nature than any real conscious decision, being essentially a singularity of eldar souls and all. And Tzeentch schemes against all of the Chaos Gods, himself included.

The only forces of Chaos that really care one way or another about the materium are the traitor legions, who see themselves as the rightful heirs to the empire (and perfectly embody Stupid Evil). Daemons that seek entrance to the materium just want to devour souls and reek havoc (there are daemons that notably don't want to be in the materium, like Cherubael, whom Eisenhorn binds into a daemonhost to punish it for tricking him into banishing it in the first place...), making them more equivalent to Tyranids or Orks.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Of course, mechanically, in Dark Heresy the worst thing that can happen is the psyker becomes a daemonhost, with odds that are worse than .6%, and they're only that high because it would never appear in the game otherwise.

... that's because you only play sanctioned Psykers. But even then, this is not the only place where this is mentioned. The sanctioning process protects a psyker from the worst of daemonic predations, and most psykers are not even strong enough to withstand it and thus are instead given to the Emperor to maintain the astronomican. Pity the unsanctioned rogue psyker if you want, but it is still a global threat to let him run around unchecked.

The sanctioning ritual may be horrifying and even break the minds of many psykers, but it's far better to be sanctioned and protected than to be turned into a daemon. Sanctionites say that there is a door in their head that they must always keep closed or daemons will come out. Those who aren't sanctioned basically have a doorway with no door, and they have to struggle all the harder, and will eventually lose their struggle.

Indeed, there are rules for unsanctioned psykers in the game too, and the game very clearly makes it obvious that playing a Nascent Psyker is a death wish. These psykers are unable to properly control their power, they can summon their powers without fail but every single time they use them they create a psychic phenomenon. These powers trigger in moments of stress, and constantly push the psyker down the path of damnation, eventually resulting in them becoming daemonically possessed-- and worse.

There's a VERY good reason that there is a rule called "For Your Own Good" in tabletop 40k.

Compare to Inquisitors: the average psyker Inquisitor didn't undergo any of the sanctionite warding and whatnot, at least if you go off specific cases in the fluff, and they make sanctionites look like gibbering lunatics. Granted, a good deal of that is simply a good heaping of plot armor, but still. I've also never seen psykers turn into a portal into the warp, admittedly that's presumably because they either have plot armor, or because enemies that suddenly liquefy and turn into a daemons are either anti-climactic or take on the air of a bad Deus Ex Machina.

Of course, the psyker in Faith and Fire is the rare example of one who is both extremely stable and powerful enough to remain in control. He's being hunted not because he's a possession hazard, but because he's individually dangerous, and because the (secret) actual "villain" of the book wants him captured, so he can sacrifice him and become a living weapon against chaos, using an old Imperial relic... Even then, the SoB don't try to just capture or kill him, they go out of their way to burn tens of thousands of random bystanders alive, for no actual reason other than "they were there."

Exterminatus makes perfect sense when a world is given over to chaos to a point where trying to redeem it would be impossible, or when it's so infested with genestealers or other tyranids that cleansing it is all but impossible, and any innocents left would only die horrifically otherwise. But the Inquisition only uses it then, they don't just go "yeah, this guy we want to kill, he's somewhere on that planet. Why bother looking for him when we can just kill everyone?", they send operatives and strike teams to deal with their target with a minimum of collateral damage. Sororitas don't bother with any such discretion, they just burn everything to the ground, whether or not it's anywhere near their objective.

The "It's For Your Own Good!" rule never made much sense as anything but a penalty to the guard player: all failure would do is remove one of two wounds from the psyker, while the commissar freaks out and shoots him if his eyes start glowing...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Compare to Inquisitors: the average psyker Inquisitor didn't undergo any of the sanctionite warding

Source?

Every book I've seen that dealt with Inquisitors? I'm fairly certain Eisenhorn and Ravenor were never sanctionites, and that wasn't treated as unusual in the least; the same goes for the Inquisitor and one of his acolytes in the Dark Heresy tie-in novels. At the very least, they don't get the full sanctionite treatment, just a formal "yeah, sure, fine, the Inquisitor says you're cool so whatever" sort of thing. There's also specific commentary to the effect of Inquisitors who find potentially useful psykers being reluctant to turn them over to the black ships, preferring to train them themselves, since once they've left their hands the Inquisitor no longer has any control over their fate, and so may well lose out on a valuable tool, which naturally doesn't sit well with the generally pragmatic Inquisitors.

Well I find every faction in the 40k universe is pretty much bad. In this instance we have bad...and really evil factions.

The Tau are pretty bad, they just keep it clean.

Honestly i'd say the Space Marines and the Tau are probably the closest thing we have to "Good guys" in 40k...but considering the fluff both forces are warmongers who will not hesitate to kill each other.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Every book I've seen that dealt with Inquisitors? I'm fairly certain Eisenhorn and Ravenor were never sanctionites

And does it actually say that, or did you just not hear about their time spent aboard the black ships?

I can't recall, though neither looks nor acts like a sanctionite, I would almost swear Ravenor is simply someone Eisenhorn found and trained, and that despite all his sitting around contemplating the past Ravenor never makes even an allusion to having been taken by the ships. I know the Acolyte in the Dark Heresy tie-in novels is outright stated not to have been given over to the black ships after the Inquisitor found her, and contemplates trying to use the Inquisitor's authority to protect a weak rogue psyker from being sacrificed to the golden throne...

Yes, that happens occasionally, but it's quite rare for even an Inquisitor to risk harboring a nascent psyker. It's more likely that they'd send them to be sanctioned, because an agent of the Inquisition who develops psychic powers is already hardened against the horrors of the warp in service to the Inquisition, and therefor more likely to make it back instead of being sent to be fed to the Golden Throne.

The thing is, Inquisitors are specifically stated to be human beings of indomitable, unbreakable will, that's pretty much their one requirement for being an Inquisitor (it's even a rule in tabletop-- Iron will, the Inquisitor chooses to pass or fail a morale or pinning check, regardless of if the test would normally have them automatically fail). An Inquisitor who fosters psychic powers would be far less of a danger to those around them (unless they wanted to be) than the average psyker regardless of sanctioning because of this willpower. Inquisitors are truly exceptional human beings regardless of their nature.

At least Chaos marines (and orks) enjoy themselves.
Eldar annoy the gak out of me...

Please note, though, that my initial point had nothing to do with whether or not psykers are dangerous, and everything to do with the SoB acting with a degree of pointless brutality that even the Inquisition shies away from. Yes, if they're hunting someone, that someone is probably dangerous. No, all those civilians they torched while walking towards where their target is had nothing at all to do with anything. I mean, I guess they deserved it: a few probably took the Emperor's name in vain, or occasionally slacked off at work, or thought lewd thoughts at some point... Such heresy!

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:a degree of pointless brutality that even the Inquisition shies away from.

And that's why you're wrong.

While there are some RARE inquisitors in RARE circumstances who MIGHT decide to harbor a rogue psyker, the majority of them would not only have done what the Sisters did, but they'd also killed or mind-cleansed anyone who was a witness to it too. The Inquisition is not an organization of softies, they are an organization of exceptional human beings with the willpower to do what must be done.

The Sisters don't have subtle methods in their repertoire. You know the old saying-- when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails. While the Sisters Famulous have training in subtlety and politics, Sisters of Battle have naught their faith, their bolters, and their conviction that it is better a citizen die faithful than to live tainted, a feeling which is hardly unique to them. The Guard feels the same way, as does the Inquisition aside from radicals (who themselves are considered tainted by the rest of the Inquisition and the Imperium at large). They could spend months or even years hunting down a single psyker within a population, who is slowly tainting the population and becoming more and more depraved and corrupt, eventually, if they don't find him, becoming a daemonhost and a portal through which daemons can enter the world, and damn the entire world to Inquisitorial attention-- which does not bode well for ANY of its citizens. Or they can find a method by which to flush the psyker out, sacrifice a small portion of the population to save the rest. This portion are martyrs, dying while still faithful so that the rest can also remain pure in life.

If the Sisters had a choice, they wouldn't use that method. But the situation was quite dire-- a single rogue psyker presents a threat to the entire world that cannot be ignored or pushed aside.

As far as I have read in the fluff. An inquisitor is not somebody you want looking at you. "Innocence proves nothing."

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition is not an organization of softies, they are an organization of exceptional human beings with the willpower to do what must be done.

And the sense to not burn a city to the ground just because it's there. Their target is in the mayor's palace. Instead of charging the palace, they stop to kill all the civilians who welcomed them as liberating heroes, allowing their target to escape.

In general, they show a nigh-psychotic willingness to cause as much collateral damage as possible, rather than expend any effort at all to... not cause catastrophic collateral damage. Inquisitors put their lives on the line to root out heresy without destroying everything in the vicinity, since dead men don't pay taxes, grow crops, or volunteer for the Imperial Guard; their jobs would be much easier and safer if they just virus bombed any world they thought might have some heretics hiding somewhere on it.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition is not an organization of softies, they are an organization of exceptional human beings with the willpower to do what must be done.

And the sense to not burn a city to the ground just because it's there.

Don't be so sure. Karamazov killed tens if not hundreds of billions just to deny potential food to the Tyranids in a move which may very well have damned the Imperium anyway by re-routing the Tyranids into a large Ork kingdom where, no matter who wins, the winning side will come out substantially stronger and in a position to strike at almost anywhere in the Imperium.

Mr Nobody wrote:*snip*

The Tau in the Jericho Reach region are the closest we've got to a look at what life can be like under the Tau at its worst.

Forced sterilisation, indoctrination camps, people disappear when they express discontent, and either don't reappear, or reappear as brainwashed cheerleaders.

The Tau use subject species as test subjects for dangerous enviroments, rather than risking the lives of Tau, and in one situation are basically firing off ships with subject race pilots into the stellar equivalent of an industrial potato peeler.

Secret labs with Nazi style medical experiments and "psychological" testing as well.
Not so good now.

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition is not an organization of softies, they are an organization of exceptional human beings with the willpower to do what must be done.

And the sense to not burn a city to the ground just because it's there.

Don't be so sure. Karamazov killed tens if not hundreds of billions just to deny potential food to the Tyranids in a move which may very well have damned the Imperium anyway by re-routing the Tyranids into a large Ork kingdom where, no matter who wins, the winning side will come out substantially stronger and in a position to strike at almost anywhere in the Imperium.

It's Kryptman, but Karamazov is equaly fanatical
I think the Kryptman gamble, while utterly heartless, is basicaly an act of desperation. With the 13. great crusade threatening to overrun Cadia and the various other catastrophes at the end of the 41. millenium the Imperium simply lacks the resources to fight back the entirety of yet another gargantuan Tyranid hivefleet. Luring Leviathan into orkheld space might buy just a few decades but perhaps this is enough to organise a solid defence.

Melissia wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition is not an organization of softies, they are an organization of exceptional human beings with the willpower to do what must be done.

And the sense to not burn a city to the ground just because it's there.

Don't be so sure. Karamazov killed tens if not hundreds of billions just to deny potential food to the Tyranids in a move which may very well have damned the Imperium anyway by re-routing the Tyranids into a large Ork kingdom where, no matter who wins, the winning side will come out substantially stronger and in a position to strike at almost anywhere in the Imperium.

You don't see a difference between a ruthless strategic gambit and "proximity is sin, burn them all, the Emperor will recognize his own"? I don't believe anyone has implied that ruthless brutality is an example of "white", either, nor even that pointless brutality (to differentiate from "ruthless" or "justified by the ends" brutality) is the exclusive domain of the Adeptus Sororitas. Every Imperial faction has those that engage in needless destruction for no good reason, the SoB just tend to be the most fervent about it being right, no matter how egregious the example. They're intolerant zealots even in comparison to the Inquisition, which generally exemplifies fanatic devotion to the Imperium and the ruthless purging of its enemies. Discretion, pragmatism, and subtlety can be found in at least most Inquisitors, concepts that are alien to the Ministorum outlook, and thus the Adeptus Sororitas.

poontangler wrote:As far as I have read in the fluff. An inquisitor is not somebody you want looking at you. "Innocence proves nothing."

I hate that phrase, all it tells me is that Inquisitors need dictionaries!

Oh, so killing a hundred billion people with an ill-advised tactic that didn't even really work is a gambit, while a few hundred is some sort of tragedy and brutality?

Please, this is just ridiculous.

Mr Nobody wrote:

poontangler wrote:As far as I have read in the fluff. An inquisitor is not somebody you want looking at you. "Innocence proves nothing."

I hate that phrase, all it tells me is that Inquisitors need dictionaries!

The full quote is something more like "innocence just means you're guilty of wasting my time", but I'm too lazy to look up the whole quote.

Inquisitors are fanatical bastards, through and through. It's part of the job.

Melissia wrote:Oh, so killing a hundred billion people with an ill-advised tactic that didn't even really work is a gambit, while a few hundred is some sort of tragedy and brutality?

Please, this is just ridiculous.

...

Inquisitors are fanatical bastards, through and through. It's part of the job.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I don't believe anyone has implied that ruthless brutality is an example of "white", either, nor even that pointless brutality (to differentiate from "ruthless" or "justified by the ends" brutality) is the exclusive domain of the Adeptus Sororitas. Every Imperial faction has those that engage in needless destruction for no good reason, the SoB just tend to be the most fervent about it being right, no matter how egregious the example. They're intolerant zealots even in comparison to the Inquisition, which generally exemplifies fanatic devotion to the Imperium and the ruthless purging of its enemies. Discretion, pragmatism, and subtlety can be found in at least most Inquisitors, concepts that are alien to the Ministorum outlook, and thus the Adeptus Sororitas.

Look anywhere and you find pointless brutality. Out of the Imperial factions, only the Ecclesiarchy (and by extension the Adeptus Sororitas) has it as standard operating procedure, however. Of course there are Inquisitors, or generals, or governors every bit as bad, or far worse (just as their are individual cases of Ecclesiarchy officials being far worse than their already extreme norm; or better, presumably, but the fluff isn't too big on ever mentioning them).

I would defend burning worlds to stop a hive fleet, though it's rather silly to burn them before the hive fleet has committed massive amounts of resources to consuming the world. Tyranids threaten the whole of the Imperium, a rogue psyker generally threatens little more than a few city blocks.


You can't apply Black and White morality to 40K. The best you get is gray. The Sororitas are an example of a rather dark gray, making the Inquisition look tolerant and understanding by comparison. That is obviously not to say that the Inquisition is either, but that compared to the Ecclesiarchy they are.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
I would defend burning worlds to stop a hive fleet, though it's rather silly to burn them before the hive fleet has committed massive amounts of resources to consuming the world. Tyranids threaten the whole of the Imperium

One thing to remember is that nids are more than capable of space combat(warriors of ultramar comes to mind) so it'd be more tactically sound to destroy a planet before nids get there then have to fight nids and commit exterminatus at the same time

But if they've committed their resources to seizing the planet, losing everything on the ground would greatly weaken the fleet as a whole. Just denying them food for a short while doesn't really do all that much; they did make the trip from another galaxy without any food source, remember. Massed fleet action combined with exerminatus of the infected world would all but destroy the hive fleet, and has been successfully used at least once.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:But if they've committed their resources to seizing the planet, losing everything on the ground would greatly weaken the fleet as a whole. Just denying them food for a short while doesn't really do all that much; they did make the trip from another galaxy without any food source, remember. Massed fleet action combined with exerminatus of the infected world would all but destroy the hive fleet, and has been successfully used at least once.

And in the process you might lose your own fleet assets, just when a madman, marinated in the raw stuff of chaos for 10000 years, once again decides that it is time for a new Black Crusade .

I don't think you realize the full scale of the Imperium. The entirety of the traitor legions is but the barest speck beside the Imperial military complex. Didn't one of the Marine Chapters manage to devastate a Hive Fleet, albeit at the expense of several worlds, and most of its number? That was less than one tenth of one percent of the Space Marines the Imperium has, who are themselves outnumbered something on the order of millions to one by the ranks of the Imperial Guard and Navy.

problem is HFL is striking from below the galaxy as opposed to the other fleets comin in from the sides

And? It's not as though the backwater outskirts of the Imperium are fortresses against incursions from without. If anything, their forces will be more concentrated closer to the segmentum solar.

My point was that the Imperial forces that have devastated hive fleets and splinter fleets have amounted to only the smallest fragment of what the Imperium has in active service. A single space marine chapter? There are one thousand of them. The guard and navy outnumber those chapters many millions to one. What chance do a half dozen hive fleets have against that?

I would say the title of good and evil is in the eyes of the beholder.... if you are human the IoM isnt really evil, just doing what they have to. Everyone else however is looked at as an evil enemy to mankind.

Chaotic Good are who I go for.

Mr Nobody wrote:

poontangler wrote:As far as I have read in the fluff. An inquisitor is not somebody you want looking at you. "Innocence proves nothing."

I hate that phrase, all it tells me is that Inquisitors need dictionaries!

Well, I'm guessing it means 'You don't need to have committed heretical acts to be a heretic.'

You can turn away from the Emperor without hurting anyone.

Serious post is unnecessarily serious.

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:*snip*

The Tau in the Jericho Reach region are the closest we've got to a look at what life can be like under the Tau at its worst.

Forced sterilisation, indoctrination camps, people disappear when they express discontent, and either don't reappear, or reappear as brainwashed cheerleaders.

The Tau use subject species as test subjects for dangerous enviroments, rather than risking the lives of Tau, and in one situation are basically firing off ships with subject race pilots into the stellar equivalent of an industrial potato peeler.

Secret labs with Nazi style medical experiments and "psychological" testing as well.
Not so good now.

Actually I read up something very similar to this, and it should be noted that most of these accusations are the result of Imperial Propaganda.

poontangler wrote:
Actually I read up something very similar to this, and it should be noted that most of these accusations are the result of Imperial Propaganda.

But as we all know propaganda is the truth, especially whilst dealing with the IoM

I would think it depends on whether or not if you happen to be an unsanctioned psyker on a spaceship off to who knows where so you can be offed to keep a supposedly benevolent being who isn't dead alive allegedly in order for the universe to be a safer place for zealots and brainwashed slaves, by sacrificing your heathen mind to sustain a power that keeps at bay the dark and threatening forces that human minds manifest for being too creative thus making the warp exist. It would really suck to have any kind of think for yourself instinct in the IoM. Since you do, we are terribly sorry but you are scheduled on the next black ship. Please report to your debarkation point for destination:terra:imperial palace:golden throne, Ny, NY, 10501. attn. Sisters of Silence, Eccliasiarchy, et al.

I say orks are the only true good only because they arnt smart enough to hate things. They fight for fun and they think that the other race is playing there for they are like a new born child.... with a machine gune.... and bombs.... and tanks.... and giant robot suits.

Guitardian wrote:I would think it depends on whether or not if you happen to be an unsanctioned psyker on a spaceship off to who knows where so you can be offed to keep a supposedly benevolent being who isn't dead alive allegedly in order for the universe to be a safer place for zealots and brainwashed slaves, by sacrificing your heathen mind to sustain a power that keeps at bay the dark and threatening forces that human minds manifest for being too creative thus making the warp exist. It would really suck to have any kind of think for yourself instinct in the IoM. Since you do, we are terribly sorry but you are scheduled on the next black ship. Please report to your debarkation point for destination:terra:imperial palace:golden throne, Ny, NY, 10501. attn. Sisters of Silence, Eccliasiarchy, et al.

If you're too weak of will to control your psychic powers, being given to fueling the Astronomican is far better than the alternative....

Having your soul tortured for eternity by daemons. Pretty much psykers are screwed no matter what, but the Imperium at least offers SOME mercy to them no matter how harsh it is, unlike Chaos.

you learn that in bible camp or something? Satan has way more fun.

Maybe, but there's only four beings in chaos who get to play Satan, and everyone else is just a toy to be played around with at their chaotic ever-changing whims.

Melissia wrote:Maybe, but there's only four beings in chaos who get to play Satan, and everyone else is just a toy to be played around with at their chaotic ever-changing whims.

But they said they would be my friend!

Seriously though, fueling the astronomicon is only slightly better, but at least you serve some positive purpose.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I could have sworn Faith and Fire, a book revolving entirely around them, had them literally burning a city in the hunt for a single man; they seize a city in the hunt for a single rogue psyker (the most sympathetic character of the book, considering his motivations are "don't get tortured to death" and "stop the actual villain of the story"), where the citizens welcomed them as liberating heroes, and were promptly hosed with promethium for no given reason (they also failed to accomplish the whole reason for marching on it in the first place, when the psyker flees in a light racing aircraft)...

Mind, I didn't say anything about how they're perceived in-universe, where I get the impression that at the very least the average Imperial citizen shares your views on the matter, only that when it comes to taking military action, they make the Inquisition look careful and lenient by comparison, rather precluding them being an example of "white".


Really, trying to ascribe a status of "white" to any faction is an exercise in futility; the scale starts at a ruthless, pragmatic grey and slides towards "so, why are we trying to summon this daemon, again?" black.

A powerful individual psyker can cause an immense amount of damage. The Bleeding Chalice displays this pretty well with Teturact (which if you haven't read the Soul Drinkers series I highly recommend it). However, I haven't read Faith and Fire but I will say that I don't generally like the writings of James Swallow. The motivations and actions of his characters I occasionally find questionable.

"Do not suffer the witch."

Psykers deserve it.

Skylifter wrote:One reason I really enjoy the whole 40K universe fluff is that it doesn't have any good guys - except the helpless masses, maybe. Everyone with even the least bit of influence in the IoM is a murderer, criminal or psychopath in some way.

Speaking of which, when is GW gonna make the "Helpless Masses" race playable? Wouldn't it be awesome? WS 1, BS 0.000000000000000000000043, T -99, W -2 (yeah, negative 2. Some models start the game dead!) And the only two special rules are: Fetal Position and Suicide.

I'd Preorder the battlebox! ...or Meatbox as I should say!

DickBandit wrote:

Skylifter wrote:One reason I really enjoy the whole 40K universe fluff is that it doesn't have any good guys - except the helpless masses, maybe. Everyone with even the least bit of influence in the IoM is a murderer, criminal or psychopath in some way.

Speaking of which, when is GW gonna make the "Helpless Masses" race playable? Wouldn't it be awesome? WS 1, BS 0.000000000000000000000043, T -99, W -2 (yeah, negative 2. Some models start the game dead!) And the only two special rules are: Fetal Position and Suicide.

I'd Preorder the battlebox! ...or Meatbox as I should say!

And to all you boys and girls, this is called how to get parts to stick on the bases of your many exos. Makes them look so much better at doing their job.

Ledabot wrote:

DickBandit wrote:

Skylifter wrote:One reason I really enjoy the whole 40K universe fluff is that it doesn't have any good guys - except the helpless masses, maybe. Everyone with even the least bit of influence in the IoM is a murderer, criminal or psychopath in some way.

Speaking of which, when is GW gonna make the "Helpless Masses" race playable? Wouldn't it be awesome? WS 1, BS 0.000000000000000000000043, T -99, W -2 (yeah, negative 2. Some models start the game dead!) And the only two special rules are: Fetal Position and Suicide.

I'd Preorder the battlebox! ...or Meatbox as I should say!

And to all you boys and girls, this is called how to get parts to stick on the bases of your many exos. Makes them look so much better at doing their job.

Yes! its a race playable by both sides and they act kind of like instinctual behavior! They retreat to the biggest space marine squad in the area at all times hahaha

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Ledabot wrote:

DickBandit wrote:

Skylifter wrote:One reason I really enjoy the whole 40K universe fluff is that it doesn't have any good guys - except the helpless masses, maybe. Everyone with even the least bit of influence in the IoM is a murderer, criminal or psychopath in some way.

Speaking of which, when is GW gonna make the "Helpless Masses" race playable? Wouldn't it be awesome? WS 1, BS 0.000000000000000000000043, T -99, W -2 (yeah, negative 2. Some models start the game dead!) And the only two special rules are: Fetal Position and Suicide.

I'd Preorder the battlebox! ...or Meatbox as I should say!

And to all you boys and girls, this is called how to get parts to stick on the bases of your many exos. Makes them look so much better at doing their job.

Yes! its a race playable by both sides and they act kind of like instinctual behavior! They retreat to the biggest space marine squad in the area at all times hahaha

Probably should have that Skaven Slave rules where they do damage (to themselves?) while fleeing. Finally, falling back is a viable tactic!

poontangler wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:*snip*

The Tau in the Jericho Reach region are the closest we've got to a look at what life can be like under the Tau at its worst.

Forced sterilisation, indoctrination camps, people disappear when they express discontent, and either don't reappear, or reappear as brainwashed cheerleaders.

The Tau use subject species as test subjects for dangerous enviroments, rather than risking the lives of Tau, and in one situation are basically firing off ships with subject race pilots into the stellar equivalent of an industrial potato peeler.

Secret labs with Nazi style medical experiments and "psychological" testing as well.
Not so good now.

Actually I read up something very similar to this, and it should be noted that most of these accusations are the result of Imperial Propaganda.

Ever heard of Nimbosa genocide?
Provide evidence that it's a result of an Imperial Propaganda.

It's also unfair to leave out that the Tau Commander did go against the policy of the Tau there, it wasn't the Ethereals that ordered (or condoned this course of action).

While the Tau may inflict atrocities at some time or another against the defeated (as history will show almost any invader commits injustices), we can only say God help the Tau civilians if the Imperium ever had them at their mercy.

Emperors Faithful wrote:It's also unfair to leave out that the Tau Commander did go against the policy of the Tau there, it wasn't the Ethereals that ordered (or condoned this course of action).

While the Tau may inflict atrocities at some time or another against the defeated (as history will show almost any invader commits injustices), we can only say God help the Tau civilians if the Imperium ever had them at their mercy.

What about Jericho Reach sunshine or Sons of Dorn.

There is a bunch of fluff that has the IoM being tolerant to Xenos, and much of the "destroy Xenos on sight" policy was because Xenos were - overall - *icks?

Remember that in Horus Rising, Horus was leading some diplomacy to join a non-human (or at least non-entirely human) faction into the budding Imperium, that there've been diplomatic missions on Eldar worlds, that Jokaero are constantly sought-out for digital weapons...

Heck, there's even a short story wherein a guy in the Imperial Guard points out that the IoM doesn't really bother with Aliens unless they prove a threat, or they have something on their world that the IoM wants (note this was Pre-4th Ed). You find an alien world in bum*uck nowhere with some aliens on it and no real appetizing facts for the planet, you just write down "Planet Bum*uck #2071, Primitive Xenos", and move on.

Sadly GW will always try to recon this,but again 40k has no real canon policy except for BL Heretical Tomes it's canon.

Not familiar with any Tau atrocities throughout the Jericho Crusade (even after visiting the website) and I haven't read Sons of Dorn (nor do I intend to, I try to avoid books starring Space Marines like the plauge).

IvanTih wrote:Heck, there's even a short story wherein a guy in the Imperial Guard points out that the IoM doesn't really bother with Aliens unless they prove a threat, or they have something on their world that the IoM wants (note this was Pre-4th Ed). You find an alien world in bum*uck nowhere with some aliens on it and no real appetizing facts for the planet, you just write down "Planet Bum*uck #2071, Primitive Xenos", and move on.

Yes, you've summed up the Imperium policy to a T. I never disputed this. But have the Imperium ever taken Tau prisoners of war?

Selective reading may disable to folllow a story when its told in codices and BL books as you're missing parts of the story.

The IoM may take a few subjects for the adeptus biologis to study.

General policy is to kill ALL unwelcome tresspassers into IoM space, so they won't take POW from non-human species, except the few handed/taken to/from the
ordo xenos and/or Ad bio.

Imperial forces tend to remove the xenos filth from Imperial worlds as best as possible.

Absolutely. To not do so is to invite Chaos and death. Now to elaborate further on your original post, a thousand souls are sacrificed to the Emperor, yes, but most go willingly; it is an honor to die in this way. To grace the Emperor's divine will before passing is a blessing. And this is not done lightly - without their noble sacrifice, interstellar travel would cease - untold thousands of worlds would be cut off and left to die to the Enemies of Man. As the infernal Tau would say, it is for the greater good.

Goddard wrote:Absolutely. To not do so is to invite Chaos and death. Now to elaborate further on your original post, a thousand souls are sacrificed to the Emperor, yes, but most go willingly; it is an honor to die in this way. To grace the Emperor's divine will before passing is a blessing. And this is not done lightly - without their noble sacrifice, interstellar travel would cease - untold thousands of worlds would be cut off and left to die to the Enemies of Man. As the infernal Tau would say, it is for the greater good.

Yes, it is a very utilitarian thing. The Tau would se it as justifiable I think.

however quoting a tau slogan said could get you killed.

Ledabot wrote:however quoting a tau slogan said could get you killed.

It's for the Greater Good of Mankind!

Execution is to proceed at 0800 hours.....