I try to browse Cool Mini or Not to see what the elite in the hobby are doing to set trends that we often see showing up in painting and modeling. Having only trolled the site enviously, I often stumble across works that truely inspire me and make me proud to be apart of the hobby. Tonight, I found a very disturbing, but real piece of work titled "Alien Contact".

Here's the link, and to be safe, I would classify this Warning: NOT SAFE FOR WORK.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/266249

I don't want to post this to start controversy, rather I'd like to discuss if this work has its purpose. Do you think such a work has its place, because it reminds us of the grim attrocities commited in warfare? Do you feel as if the piece simply is meant to execute some sick fantasy of the artist? Or do you feel otherwise?

Personally, its a very grim and real piece. Rape and warfare, sadly, often go hand in hand. Given the ammount of work placed in the piece, I don't see this being something that gratifies it nor was the work created to fill out a sick obsession. The fact that the act isn't occouring yet leaves the audience to wonder, which in my opinion is the scariest part of the piece.

*Mod Disclaimer* Once again, I'm not trying to start a controversy here. I feel as if discussions like this need to happen, and I hope our dakkadites keep their maturity through this thread. If things get out of hand or if you feel as if this thread is simply too controversial, please take all necessary action.

This kind of thing happens in real war, yes. However, we don't need to think about that kind of thing with our tiny plastic spacemen. It's not an aspect of the fluff that's explored, and I think it's best to be left that way. The actual technical skill behind this piece is incredible, but I have a feeling there's just some fat neckbearded guy behind this who just wants Internet attention.

I am not bothered by this at all. This sitaution is quite common throughout human history during warfare, don't see why it would change in the 41st millenium. Not that I condone it's message, just no point in trying to glom over what has happened in history or what would probably happen in a situation like this.

The sad part is that the diorama is brilliant looking. Well done, but ultimately graphic.

Brother SRM wrote:This kind of thing happens in real war, yes. However, we don't need to think about that kind of thing with our tiny plastic spacemen. It's not an aspect of the fluff that's explored, and I think it's best to be left that way. The actual technical skill behind this piece is incredible, but I have a feeling there's just some fat neckbearded guy behind this who just wants Internet attention.

Well, basing it off the fluff, the eldar would have no problem taking out those guardsmen, seeing how only one is really providing overwatch. That, or she could simply run. I'm no expert on "Xeno-human anatomies and their realations" but I'd bet a nickel that this simply wouldn't work out the way the artist thinks it would.

Attention is another great theory behind this work. It could be good or bad; perhaps he or she is an advocate for stopping sex crimes and is fed up with the term "rape" being thrown around in wargaming.

It's a fantastic piece of work.

I find the disturbed reactions to this piece to be rather curious. Why does a rape scene disturb so much when the context of 40k is death, death everywhere? Is rape a more heinous crime than murder? If everything about the diorama was the same except it showed a commissar about to execute the eldar in place of the guy opening his fly would it be less disturbing? More? The same?

I suspect that at least some of the reaction to this piece is the way sex and violence are handled in the US media. Films shown on broadcast TV are edited for sex, but not so much for violence because of our puritan roots. In Germany the emphasis was reversed. Films are edited to take out the violence and leave the sex in.

While the content is rather taboo, the piece is very well pulled off (no pun). I can't even imagine the talent that went into creating it...or the money it cost, either.

Rape is one of the main aspects of warfare in 40,000. Daemons want to rape the material universe, and the premise pretty much devolves from there. Human-alien hybridization is one route through which competing entities invade human space and soul. Daemons possess psyckers, Genestealers infect humans, Pariahs represent a fusion of Necron technology and human biology, hence the Ordo Xenos protecting the Imperial underbelly from alien infiltration and subversion.

Speaking of NOT SAFE FOR WORK,

Here's why you don't rape Eldar

Arschbombe wrote:It's a fantastic piece of work.

I find the disturbed reactions to this piece to be rather curious. Why does a rape scene disturb so much when the context of 40k is death, death everywhere? Is rape a more heinous crime than murder? If everything about the diorama was the same except it showed a commissar about to execute the eldar in place of the guy opening his fly would it be less disturbing? More? The same?

I suspect that at least some of the reaction to this piece is the way sex and violence are handled in the US media. Films shown on broadcast TV are edited for sex, but not so much for violence because of our puritan roots. In Germany the emphasis was reversed. Films are edited to take out the violence and leave the sex in.

The "taboo" status of the piece does come from western ideas on censorship. I'd hate to sound too liberal in my posting, but that is, by far, the dumbest oxymoron our country has.

Then again, Americans like to think of war as a quick and speedy process. Sometimes, I wonder if they know that people are dying everyday in our wars, beit an American or an insurgent. Death, regardless on what side, is a loss of human life.

It was posted here too. After much thought I decided to delete it.

It was a tough call but the old rule about "this is a family wargame" won out. True there's a double standard on sex and violence in the US and to a lesser extent the UK but the question is does it violate those standards, now whether or not the standard makes sense.

Nakatan does fantastic work and by every measure, save family friendliness, it's a great diorama.

Wow, 3rd or 4th thread I've seen on it, it is certainly getting people talking like it or not lol -

MajorTom11 wrote:Wow, 3rd or 4th thread I've seen on it, it is certainly getting people talking like it or not lol -

According to CMoN, it was a piece which was one of the top rated works in the past 7 days.

well i already had this discussion on warhammer.org.uk. If the author would make it bit clearer what he tried to say with this diorama, it would be much easier (oh yes, i know, artists is not supposed to say blah blah blah). Watching it I unfortunately have a feeling that its equally possibly that instead of showing grim reality of war in extreme, author was thinking more along the line "hur hur hur, ledar bithc will get it..".
I know its grim universe and its all death and destruction but come on, there are some limits. (and to be clear- I do not like especially violent dioramas either). After all if we start concentrating on grim parts, whats stopping us from having diorama of city aftyer chaos incursion and little children impaled on poles? surely thats what Chaos guys would do?
To me it that piece was disturbing and quite sick. As I said- if the author would explain his motivation, it could have helped a lot. If he wanted to achieve controversy, surely he managed. That doesnt oput him in my good books though.

I'm starting to think that the knife is placed curiously close to her hand for a reason....

very well made piece... subject matter is clearly a bit on the controversial side... but looking at the sculpt and paint jobs, definitly a well done model.

ill say nothing on the scene it depicts, since thats been mentioned on both sides and repeating it here is just beating a dead horse imo.

I think its a brilliant piece, and I have nothing against it morally, ethically, etc. etc.


However, I do prefer that things like this NOT be done, simply because wargaming is a hobby for me, i use it to get away from the realities of the world, and prefer not to be reminded of them.

Is there some reason for this thread to be duplicating the other thread on this work?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/73.page

I saw this yesterday and I am in the "leave this for the real world" camp of things. Not that our game isn't about war, death, and violence, but its just too grim even for this game.

Not that it isn't beautifully done, but its still just a bit over the top.

I'm gonna have to agree with em_en_oh_pee, this really has no place in the world of 40k. Yes I understand war and its brutalities, but I think this piece was intended greatly to be a work of art, and certain things just take away from that aspect. The painting is stunning and looks excellent, but the subject matter is too over-the top and, honestly, distasteful.
Granesh

People have been watching too much Oprah. It's a good diorama.

This piece is trying to depict some actual grimdark but fails because:

A) 40k grimdark is cartoonish.
B) The subject matter has been approached by, at worst, a neck beard. The boobs are just a dead give away aren't they?

Something that a few seconds of googling found for me on similar subjects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women

Just makes this diorama come out looking even worse.

This piece is incredibly well done and the narrative could play out a couple of ways. While I agree its a distastful scene to model it does give a little bit of reality to the 40K enviroment in a grim future grim things will happen. Historical modellers can't show wounded miniatures in some competitions I remember the furry caused some years ago by a dio rama showing S.S about to excecute prisoners

Work of art? Hum.

Given the vast size of the IG, there must be a lot more IG-on-IG chummery going on than Eldar Rape. Why not make a diorama about that?

It's just as legitimate a subject, if you want to make artistic statements within the context of an SF wargame.

It has current day resonance given the US Army's toils regarding "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".

But of course, No Bewbs.

If the artist has a certain point he is trying to prove then
I would like to hear it, otherwise this is a sick perverted
scene that some creep made.

Viewing this diorama again it just reeks of poor execution.

Whats the centre of the diorama?

Boobs!

Wheres the light source?

Boobs

Whats the focus?

Boobs.

This Alien chick is gonna get some! High fives and whooping all round!

This would have been better (if you would want to go down this route and its still needlessleyfairy graphic) had the alien been lying off to the side, muted and in shadow and the troops were walking away with one figure straggling a little doing his BDU's up. No visable cleavage would be necessary. That is just one way.

Less is more, get the viewer to think.

Even if it wasn't 40k based it would still be poor. In a proper event this would rank way down, and not just for subject matter.

To neither praise nor condemn it, it is interesting to observe how torture, the devouring of one's very soul, the killing of 10 billion innocents with no remorse, and the most depraved acts of violence are accepted, while the notion of rape is seen as exceptionally distasteful.

I posted a much more complete answer in the DCM forum but basically I think it is a great diorama well modelled, well painted and thought provoking. I couldn't care less what kids think. Don't condone rape but it would definitely happen in the grim-darkness of the far future so I have no problem with it. I feel if you can't look at it and see it as thought provoking and depicting the guardsman as wrong then you are a little to sheltered and maybe need to grow up. I don't like seeing images of women who have been beaten up by their husbands on the news but I could look at a piece of art that depicted it and raised awareness of a problem and not feel disgusted by it just as I can make jokes about rape, murder, paedophilia and pretty much anything else even though I neither condone or think the real thing is funny.

The modelling of death and mutilation is applauded, yet modelling a potential rape scene is worng??? Guys need a hypocrisy check!

I can model headless corpses, tie Prisoners riddled with bullet holes to the front of a Chaos or Ork Tank, or have a DE Reaver with a slave girl, and I'm applauded. But should I show another reality of war, your flamed by the Politically Correct brigade who themselves have done the above.

Maybe the diorama (which I think is excellently done, although the boobs are a bit comical) is showing a 'too reality' of war for people to grasp. Its too much from the 'dark side' of war.

Personally, I'd applaud the courage to produce this peice.

Edit: I must second ph34r, ED_Bodger and TheSecretSquig, who said basically the same as I do below.

I find it distasteful how a bunch of people happily collecting and painting miniatures that depict people or creatures whose main purpose is causing death, destruction and misery suddenly become moralistic when it is pointed out that rape is part of that whole agenda.

Do you not realize that the games you play are fine as games, because they are fictional, because they do not cause actual harm to anyone, but that the content of this fiction is inherently cruel?

The 40k fluff talks at length about murderers, or about an inhumane empire where whole planets are destroyed just because of internal power struggles within the inquisition - "the inquisition!" - and often the fluff text even praises the actions of such persons and institutions - and you worry about a scene portraying rape?

Is it alright to talk about murder, and to talk about how cool this or that miniature of a professional torturer is, or about how orks are so cool because they love killing and destroying things so much - but not about rape?


Maybe this strange and absurd difference in reaction is because rape seems to be a much more realistic kind of violence than genocide in our real world. But it is not.

Dedicated no doubt to all the victims of rape by occupying soldiery and condoned because "Boys will be boys."

The quality of the model making is no justification for the diorama, nor does mere technique make it a work of art.

It is purient titilation ant best, and wholly unecessary.

This does no good for all those victims of this sort of bestiality. As for "courage" to produce this utter drivel, you obviously fail to understand the meaning of the word.

Edit: removed my post because it is pointless to argue this with people who do not realize that wargaming means allowing the fact something is fiction to make it acceptable as a hobby.

Ed_Bodger wrote:I posted a much more complete answer in the DCM forum but basically I think it is a great diorama well modelled, well painted and thought provoking.

How is it thought provoking ?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Dedicated no doubt to all the victims of rape by occupying soldiery and condoned because "Boys will be boys."

40k, Dedicated no doubt to all the victims of war by occupying solidery and condoned because "War will be War".

Innocents are slaughtered by war, I'm currently on a 2 year posting in the Middle East so I know first hand what goes on. So, depicting this on your models that are showing slaughter, bloodshed, violence is perfectly acceptable, but the depicting a potential rape scene isn't?

Even a Gaunt Novel described one of his soliders raping an innocent before knifing her to death. A DE Reaver is sold with slave Girl models. Khorne is slaughter everyone, blood for the blood God.

If this is an acceptable FICTION, then you are a hypercrite to say another form of FICTION is wrong.

Both the killing and torture of innocent Civilians and the rape of women is a harsh reality of war. Niether are accepable in my opinion, but they both still take place.

reds8n wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:I posted a much more complete answer in the DCM forum but basically I think it is a great diorama well modelled, well painted and thought provoking.

How is it thought provoking ?

My thoughts exactly. This is an attempt to be edgy. Why make this diorama? Sure, it could happen, but why? The valiant Space Marines battling the nefarious forces of Chaos or the nasty Tyranids coming to grips with the heroic, yet tragic, Eldar are more in tune with our hobby than a rape scene.

People say this is hypocrisy, but while we play out our little wars on our tabletops, there is something almost noble about open conflicts like that versus the more seedy, less tactful portions of war we can do without.

Of course, that is just my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheSecretSquig wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Both the killing and torture of innocent Civilians and the rape of women is a harsh reality of war. Niether are accepable in my opinion, but they both still take place.

That may be true, but why make a diorama of them? Its not edgy, its in poor taste. We are not saying it is "wrong" per se, but just inappropriate in our opinions.

People seem to have forgotten what 40k is all about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-jBnE3LYo4

LINK NOT SAFE FOR WORK!

I don't have any problem with this diorama.

And I must say I totally agree with Skylifter, ph34r, ED_Bodger and TheSecretSquig.

I agree, it may be in bad taste for some. But some are suggesting that it is unacceptable, which to me, is hypocrisy considering the hobby we take part in and the background it dictates.

TheSecretSquig wrote:40k, Dedicated no doubt to all the victims of war by occupying solidery and condoned because "War will be War".

To an extent. 40K is, by and large, a grotesque satire upon the horrors of war is it not ? When done "right" anyway.

I don't see what this diorama actually "says" or is purported to represent.

As to the people yelling " OHMAGAWD HYPERCRITE (sic)".. I think a deep breath and a step back is a good idea. It's a wargame, so there's always going to be violent imagery associated. But the mechanics of the game itself are kept quite deliberately abstract and "clean" so as to avoid any real graphicness.



The painting technique is really very good, the detailing on the faces is superb indeed. I don't think there's much debate with regards to that.

Oh right, I was forgetting p69 in the BRB about forcibly having sex with prisoners.
Don't worry pal, I saw your original post.

It is also pointless me coming on this forum and arguing from a point of empathy and compassion.
Despite the fact that I realise there will be plenty to say it is fair spoils cos genocide is okay. and shout me down.

It is a war game, not a kinky sex role playing game.
Look man there is plenty of that highly abusive and offensive on the internet and worst. It need not be imposed on a plastic soldiers game.

Again, it is not an act of courage to make this diorama, just the will to offend. There is zero intellectual contaent and no artistic merit. It is purely meant to titilate. As such the work is a dreadful piece of juvenalia. The creater needs to grow up.

reds8n wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:I posted a much more complete answer in the DCM forum but basically I think it is a great diorama well modelled, well painted and thought provoking.

How is it thought provoking ?

It is thought provoking in the sense that this is the third thread on this diorama and has divided wargamers on morality depicted within the hobby. If the diorama had been similar but with a male eldar on the ground and instead of taking off his trousers the guy was drawing a knife to slit the eldar's throat - or if his chestplate had been removed then cut out his heart the vast majority would just say - nice model nice paint job and that would be it. However this has made us all sit up take note and express an meaningful opinion.

brother_zach wrote:I try to browse Cool Mini or Not to see what the elite in the hobby are doing to set trends that we often see showing up in painting and modeling. Having only trolled the site enviously, I often stumble across works that truely inspire me and make me proud to be apart of the hobby. Tonight, I found a very disturbing, but real piece of work titled "Alien Contact".

Here's the link, and to be safe, I would classify this Warning: NOT SAFE FOR WORK.

http://www.coolminiornot.com/266249

I don't want to post this to start controversy, rather I'd like to discuss if this work has its purpose. Do you think such a work has its place, because it reminds us of the grim attrocities commited in warfare? Do you feel as if the piece simply is meant to execute some sick fantasy of the artist? Or do you feel otherwise?

Personally, its a very grim and real piece. Rape and warfare, sadly, often go hand in hand. Given the ammount of work placed in the piece, I don't see this being something that gratifies it nor was the work created to fill out a sick obsession. The fact that the act isn't occouring yet leaves the audience to wonder, which in my opinion is the scariest part of the piece.

*Mod Disclaimer* Once again, I'm not trying to start a controversy here. I feel as if discussions like this need to happen, and I hope our dakkadites keep their maturity through this thread. If things get out of hand or if you feel as if this thread is simply too controversial, please take all necessary action.

I think 40k is about escapism.... so no something hard core and realistic like this doesnt have much of a place. The guy is a great modeller. I dont really care for his theme.

ps
I have friends who have been raped.
Tell them it is only a game.

Ed
I believe you are crediting the creator with too much intelligence.
There is nothing to suggest that the work was intended to elicit discussion.
It is simply an inevitable reaction that the debate takes place.

If there was some indication of a disinterested viewpoint from the maker, or something to facilitate the discussion in a more intellectual way then I would agree with you.

Chibi I completely appreciate your point of view and I feel very sorry for your friends. I have friends who have died or been mutilated in Afghanistan and Iraq but I can still look at a diorama depicting violent death and not be offended or think that the modeler is juvenile.

If you actually analysed the Eldar model inline with the background, I doubt the boobs would actually be that big. Eldar are tall, slim and slender build so its doubtful they'd fill anything more than a 'B' cup. I'd also argue about the Eldar trying to cover herself. Eldar would not see the embarrasment or need to cover that part of thier body from view than any other part other than a practical reason. Its more likely the Eldar would not move or fight back until they thought they could strike an attack back.

This isn't part of the game we play, but an expression of the background connected to the game. Similar to any diorama scene.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:ps
I have friends who have been raped.
Tell them it is only a game.

I have friends who have been shot and friends mutilated by IED's designed to mutilate. I had friends who have taken civillian lives for one reason or another (note, HAD friends).

Tell them its only a game.

Sorry but this dio is to me the 28mm scale version of graffiti on the lavatory wall.

Ed Thank you.
Likewise, my thoughts go out to your friends and loved ones.
When it comes to a disagreement between explosive hot metal and flesh and bone, sadly there is only ever one winner. :(

Ed_Bodger wrote:It is thought provoking in the sense that this is the third thread on this diorama and has divided wargamers on morality depicted within the hobby. If the diorama had been similar but with a male eldar on the ground and instead of taking off his trousers the guy was drawing a knife to slit the eldar's throat - or if his chestplate had been removed then cut out his heart the vast majority would just say - nice model nice paint job and that would be it. However this has made us all sit up take note and express an meaningful opinion.

..*obvious joke about meaningful opinion comment*

I think there's a difference between something being thought provoking -- which generally is taken to mean it forces one to stop and reconsider ones' established perspective on something or think about something from a previously unconsidered angle or approach -- and merely divisive or controversial. Or even just kind of lame.

Hell, we pretty much have longer and more frequent threads on far more banal subjects -- favourite sandwich/pizza topping/HAWT women -- all the time and I don't really think one can honestly describe those as being thought provoking as such no ?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry but this dio is to me the 28mm scale version of graffiti on the lavatory wall.

You want to read some of the Graffiti on the lavatory walls where I'm living, its hilarious!!!

Good point perhaps I should have used another phrase but it has made people consider what they find acceptable to be depicted in 28mm scale and what they don't so in that sense it could be called though provoking. Maybe to lighten the tone this thread should be hijacked to discuss favorite Pizza toppings?

Chibi: Thank you.

Brace yourselves for the wall of text:

No one has yet mentioned the fact that these models have expressions. Far from "LOLRAPEBEWBSLOOK!!1!" this scene probably has the greatest sense of narrative tension and interiority that I've ever seen in a diorama. In fact, I think the whole thing is quite artfully composed.

As for the bewbs, something a little more subtle might have been more "artful," but the artist is functioning within the scope of the model range, which is governed by exaggerated proportions. Ignoring that, note her pose. She is tensed, half covering her naked chest, her expression stern and her eyes turned to her left. Is she reaching for the knife? Is she trying to hide her fear as the disrobing guardsman approaches? Is she ashamed, trying to cover her nakedness? You know what? This isn't even about rape. This is about exploring traditional modes of sexuality as a vulnerability in otherwise dominant, empowered women. How do I know? I don't, but it's plausible and thought provoking (if you're the type inclined to let your thoughts be provoked). Wait, now it's depicting the loss of humanity through the dehumanization of a non-human, predicting a doomed future for mankind who, as a species, cannot grow to accept anything beyond itself. See what I did there? Two totally different directions, same piece. Either way, it gives me a hell of a lot more pleasure to play around with ideas like that than it does to call the artist a pervy neckbeard.

Are miniature painters to be relegated to the realm of artisans, never pushing boundaries, never tackling taboo subjects, never raising questions with their work? It seems like this kind of thing is far more acceptable in the "fine arts," but I have a feeling that's more the demographic, not the medium. When a painting or sculpture generates this much ambivalent discussion after a gallery viewing, it called a resounding success (and someone possibly buys it for heinous amounts of money). And yet, I personally know plenty of people who would immediately not only dismiss the piece as crap, but start slinging insults and spiteful insinuations about the artist (as some have done online).

Rape is just too taboo for many people to handle (not even referring to those who have had emotionally scarring personal experiences therewith). I recall a discussion about modeling erect penises on Soul Grinders a while back. There's a lot to be said for that, actually, from an artistic-analytical perspective. But, of course, some people will still find it distasteful. The number of "anyone who does this is a perv and a very bad person" comments, however, was significantly lower than the "just don't show it to kids" camp. So an erect penis on a twisted manifestation of perverse sexuality and insatiable bloodlust which delights in nothing more than desecrating any and everything it can, only to crush it moments later is fine and dandy, as long as you don't let kids see it? The insinuation of sexual violence/violent sexuality there should be no less shocking than in this diorama. And yet, you've all seen the reactions...

I think the diorama is fantastic. Then again, maybe I'm just an artsy-fartsy, amorality-preaching rape apologist whose tolerance (let alone praise) of such a work means he should probably be raped, himself, so he knows how terrible it is and why he was really really wrong to ever bring it into a discussion beyond saying "it's bad." I'm sure someone on the internet will let me know, sooner or later.

Ed_Bodger wrote:Good point perhaps I should have used another phrase but it has made people consider what they find acceptable to be depicted in 28mm scale and what they don't so in that sense it could be called though provoking.

Perhaps.

Do you not think it -- ie the diorama itself and/or the artists intent -- hasn't done this -- there's nothing in the portrayed scene that screams "discuss ! " or actually makes some form of comment in this regard. The title is really little more than a black humoured pun is it not ? There's nothing there that suggests to me that the artist was intending to make some statement as such. YMMV though of course.

And I don't really see much of the debate here -- from both the pro or anti "camps" -- really being any different than the last ( and I'd wager the next ) thread on Nazi themed 40k army 1111 / KKK themed Redemptionist gang/ kontrovershul armee 111 !!! etc etc threads either.


Really, any "debate" is really just a rehash of existing opinions and thoughts -- which is fair enough, keeps the world turning to a degree one supposes -- mainly by those who are, so to speak, quite experienced with regards to this sort of thread.

Any minute now we'll get some "brave" poster proclaiming what a work of genius the piece is, and then throwing themselves upon the savage and uncaring other posters who "just don't understand", as some form of human sacrifice to the artistic muses.

EDIT : The internet really is fast these days eh ?

oadie wrote:Brace yourselves for the wall of text:

No one has yet mentioned the fact that these models have expressions. Far from "LOLRAPEBEWBSLOOK!!1!" this scene probably has the greatest sense of narrative tension and interiority that I've ever seen in a diorama. In fact, I think the whole thing is quite artfully composed.

As for the bewbs, something a little more subtle might have been more "artful," but the artist is functioning within the scope of the model range, which is governed by exaggerated proportions. Ignoring that, note her pose. She is tensed, half covering her naked chest, her expression stern and her eyes turned to her left. Is she reaching for the knife? Is she trying to hide her fear as the disrobing guardsman approaches? Is she ashamed, trying to cover her nakedness? You know what? This isn't even about rape. This is about exploring traditional modes of sexuality as a vulnerability in otherwise dominant, empowered women. How do I know? I don't, but it's plausible and thought provoking (if you're the type inclined to let your thoughts be provoked). Wait, now it's depicting the loss of humanity through the dehumanization of a non-human, predicting a doomed future for mankind who, as a species, cannot grow to accept anything beyond itself. See what I did there? Two totally different directions, same piece. Either way, it gives me a hell of a lot more pleasure to play around with ideas like that than it does to call the artist a pervy neckbeard.

Are miniature painters to be relegated to the realm of artisans, never pushing boundaries, never tackling taboo subjects, never raising questions with their work? It seems like this kind of thing is far more acceptable in the "fine arts," but I have a feeling that's more the demographic, not the medium. When a painting or sculpture generates this much ambivalent discussion after a gallery viewing, it called a resounding success (and someone possibly buys it for heinous amounts of money). And yet, I personally know plenty of people who would immediately not only dismiss the piece as crap, but start slinging insults and spiteful insinuations about the artist (as some have done online).

Rape is just too taboo for many people to handle (not even referring to those who have had emotionally scarring personal experiences therewith). I recall a discussion about modeling erect penises on Soul Grinders a while back. There's a lot to be said for that, actually, from an artistic-analytical perspective. But, of course, some people will still find it distasteful. The number of "anyone who does this is a perv and a very bad person" comments, however, was significantly lower than the "just don't show it to kids" camp. So an erect penis on a twisted manifestation of perverse sexuality and insatiable bloodlust which delights in nothing more than desecrating any and everything it can, only to crush it moments later is fine and dandy, as long as you don't let kids see it? The insinuation of sexual violence/violent sexuality there should be no less shocking than in this diorama. And yet, you've all seen the reactions...

I think the diorama is fantastic. Then again, maybe I'm just an artsy-fartsy, amorality-preaching rape apologist whose tolerance (let alone praise) of such a work means he should probably be raped, himself, so he knows how terrible it is and why he was really really wrong to ever bring it into a discussion beyond saying "it's bad." I'm sure someone on the internet will let me know, sooner or later.

In my world, the title of "hero of the day" goes to you.

oadie, I bet your an art student.

I agree with what you've said, its a very good analysis. i personally have no problems with this piece, mainly because I have read a good majority of Bernard Cornwells books (you know; Sharpe, turncoat [or what ever the American civil war ones are],ect) which almost always include at least one sex, rape or attempted rape scene in the book. On top of this, I have seen plenty of artwork around and there are quite a few pieces around which depict taboo scenes (There is a huge canvas by my schools library with several people on it, one of which is a fully naked woman with greatly exaggerated breasts)

It is an excellent diorama in both painting a modeling sense, though the breasts are a bit too large but it has been said that certain things must be exaggerated to get the point across and a t some points it is impossible to make smaller what is already quite small (in RL, how big is it on the model? What, a few mm, I doubt it is a simple task to make them smaller but still get the point across). The diorama also has a great narrative, much better than the X vs Y + gore" or "Oh look, we've won" dioramas I see around.

I would also disagree that the eldar model is the focus point of the piece, the centaur is what attracts my eyes first, then to the eldar who is in a contrasting colour to pretty much everything on the diorama's base.

Do you think such a work has its place, because it reminds us of the grim attrocities commited in warfare? Do you feel as if the piece simply is meant to execute some sick fantasy of the artist? Or do you feel otherwise?

I think it's there to tell a story, and I think it does so in an exceptionally evocative and thought-provoking manner. The piece is full of little details that show the character of each of the various Guardsmen.

Look at the Officer. He's turning off the vox in a very subtle manner, but he's starring off into the distance with a "I don't want to know" thousand-yard stare. The guy holding the breast-plate looks really nervous, glancing at the guy to his right. The guy with the gun is a mad-dog - he has a gleam in his eye that screams "Revenge!". And the guy who's about the commit the act, he's similar to the guy with the gun. In his mind he is no doubt about to do what he is about to do to get revenge on the Eldar for what they've no doubt been doing to his buddies during this war (ie. revenge for killing them). The most twisted of them, by far, is the tank's driver. He is leaning over and leering - he has a sense of real detached fascination, so I think of all of them he's the budding psychopath.

In the end people have to remember that most rapes are not about sex, but about power. You have a crew of Guardsmen here who are doing something to get a little bit of power over the Eldar they are fighting. It's not fetishistic at all, and certainly isn't presented in a way that could be even considered erotic.

Like all good dioramas it tells a story, and it tells a very interesting one. And aside from that the modelling and painting are exquisite.


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reds8n wrote:And I don't really see much of the debate here -- from both the pro or anti "camps" -- really being any different than the last ( and I'd wager the next ) thread on Nazi themed 40k army 1111 / KKK themed Redemptionist gang/ kontrovershul armee 111 !!! etc etc threads either.

Except in the case of a Nazi Guard army, or a KKK Redemptionist Gang, those are taking modern day or historical items and putting them in 40K clothing. Redemptionists in white lynching someone (whatever their colour... or species even) isn't 40K. A Leman Russ with a swastika on it isn't 40K. Why? Because neither of these things exist in 40K. There are no Nazi's in 40K. There is no KKK in 40K. To transplant them into 40K is about as 4th-wall-breaking as you can get.

But this diorama? It shows a story, a story that doesn't require the context of modern day or 38,000 years in the future to convey. It is conveying a common story of soldiers letting their emotions get the better of them and them taking their revenge on a captured enemy. That would fit into any time period as it is true to human nature (wanting revenge). Would people be up in arms if the Eldar wasn't half-naked, but was instead kneeling with a Laspistol to the back of her head? What if the diorama was 100% the same... except the Eldar was male?

No. It's because it's a female that people are up in arms about this, and while I'm not going to scream "hypocrite" as some have done already, it does show a real lack of thought going into the knee-jerk reactions of some people in this thread.

TheSecretSquig wrote:The modelling of death and mutilation is applauded, yet modelling a potential rape scene is worng??? Guys need a hypocrisy check!

I can model headless corpses, tie Prisoners riddled with bullet holes to the front of a Chaos or Ork Tank, or have a DE Reaver with a slave girl, and I'm applauded. But should I show another reality of war, your flamed by the Politically Correct brigade who themselves have done the above.

Maybe the diorama (which I think is excellently done, although the boobs are a bit comical) is showing a 'too reality' of war for people to grasp. Its too much from the 'dark side' of war.

Personally, I'd applaud the courage to produce this peice.

I dislike quoting a piece and saying that I simply agree, but I have to do that here. You make an excellent point that I fully agree with.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
But this diorama? It shows a story, a story that doesn't require the context of modern day or 38,000 years in the future to convey. It is conveying a common story of soldiers letting their emotions get the better of them and them taking their revenge on a captured enemy. That would fit into any time period as it is true to human nature (wanting revenge). Would people be up in arms if the Eldar wasn't half-naked, but was instead kneeling with a Laspistol to the back of her head? What if the diorama was 100% the same... except the Eldar was male?

I'm not sure I agree the reaction is coloured one way or another by the gender of the Eldar, but..well could be. I don't think anyone has argued (here) that female rape is intrinsically worse than male rape.

That would fit into any time period as it is true to human nature

I agree it would in any "realistic" setting, but the 40K setting, or at least the mindset described therein so often, distorts and twists the essential nature of humanity so often and so abusrdly at times, especially with regards to the Imperium's citizens beliefs and creeds that this scene doesn't really ring true IMO.
Mainly as it pretty much reduces the Eldar to little more than a human with pointy ears. they're not and the Imperium doesn't think of them that way.

They view them as animals, lesser beings.

Does rape happen in the 40K setting ? No doubt.

I'm sure that some guardsmen would rape people, in certain circumstances.

But I don't think they'd rape, for example, cattle. Or an ape. Or a ptera squirrel.

I agree that simply transplanting atiitudes X/Y/Z to the 40k setting -- which is done on occassion, and it dilutes and lessens the core concept/conceit IMO, like all bad writing -- is wrong, and yet this is exactly what this diorama does, because it really isn't "true" to the setting with regards to what it shows.

That said, part of the whole gmaes appeal is the "permission" given for players to go and do run with what they want to do with the setting, regardless of any "offical" cannon or somesuch. Exactly how successful many of these are of course... welll.....

I don't see the Guard (or humanity in the 41st Millennium) viewing the Eldar as animals. If they viewed them as animals they wouldn't care what they did. Animals are ignored and left alone, which is why you don't see Imperial Crusades purging all planets of life that didn't originate on Terra. Alien life is fine as long as it is animalistic and 'native' (so to speak). They wouldn't rape a petra-squirel or a Grox or whatever because they don't need to hold power over them - they (essentially) already do, in the same way we humans hold power of livestock.

Sentient beings on the other hand, they are seen as threats. They are seen as debased and inherently corrupt? Yes of course. But simple unthinking animals? No. The Guard know that the Eldar are 'people' (in the non-human specific sense of the world) and I can see a soldier driven to the edge wanting to exert power over an Eldar, especially one that's been "killing his buddies". Rape is a method of exerting power, so to me this diorama makes perfect sense.

I disagree with the notion that this diorama isn't 'true' to the setting. Is it brought about by the failure of those that drive 40K's narrative to make the Eldar anything more than pointy-eared humans (as you say)? Yes, it is. But taking that as a central conceit and accepting that the Eldar are just pointy-eared humans makes the diorama's narrative even easier to believe.

Reds8n you obviously haven,t been to Wales if you think humans won't rape animals (although they claim the sheep like it and push back)

I don't find it thought provoking nor interestedly laid out, the only thing positive about it is the sculpting and modelling.

Now normally that would be a great compliment to the artist, but when it is so incredibly obvious that the subject matter they chose was ONLY to garner more attention by stirring up this much poo, it makes me sad that someone with obvious skills has to resort to something so low.

The only way you could find this "thought provoking" is if its your very first introduction to what rape is.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:It is a war game, not a kinky sex role playing game.

You wouldn't think that by reading some of the comments here on Dakka, though. How many people have we seen whining because the daemonettes or DE wyches aren't "sexy" enough? "These daemonettes don't have enough breasts, and why are there male components on the wyches sprue?! Not only that but there isn't a single thong here, WTF GW?!"

And then there's all the Slaanesh CSM conversions. You know the ones I'm talking about.

Anyway, all I'm going to say is that I'm tired of people treating me like a fething idiot and taking it upon themselves to "educate" me, or "open my eyes". Do you really think the fact that I'm not talking about rape 24/7 means I'm not aware that it exists? Come the feth on.

I know people who have been raped, and it really hurts knowing the people you love have to live with that pain. This hobby is my escape from the harshness of reality, it doesn't mean I'm ignorant of it, I just want some time away from it lest I put a fething bullet in my head.

Other than that I'm not really too bothered by it. I'm more disturbed by the aforementioned "NEED MOAR SEXY MODELS" types than anything.


EDIT: And since it came up a few posts up, I feel the need to defend myself yet again and state that I don't have a problem with people sculpting penises (peni?) on models, if it's done right. In nearly every single case I've seen someone do that, they were doing it just to make people laugh or get their buddies to high-five them for being rebellious and cool. Never have I gotten the feeling that anyone did it because they realized they were modeling a "twisted manifestation of perverse sexuality and insatiable bloodlust which delights in nothing more than desecrating any and everything it can" and wanted to properly represent that on the tabletop.

I've never said that anyone who models genitalia on a model is immature, but most of the ones I've seen definitely gave me that feeling. Usually you can tell the difference, and when it looks like someone put no thought or effort into their work and just slapped a dick on it to be funny, I think it's safe to call them out on it.

That isn't true at all, as I said earlier the fact that it makes you consider what is 'acceptable' to model makes it thought provoking. The fact that it has provoked a reaction makes it though provoking. I wonder if it was a male eldar getting bent over the bonnet would we see some jokes about it or would it be taken as seriously as a female eldar?

I was replying to Ifalna btw

H.B.M.C. wrote: The Guard know that the Eldar are 'people' (in the non-human specific sense of the world) and I can see a soldier driven to the edge wanting to exert power over an Eldar, especially one that's been "killing his buddies". Rape is a method of exerting power, so to me this diorama makes perfect sense.

I agree that rape is, generally, about that yes.

But I think there's a huge difference between wanting revenge or hating the enemy and being willing to have sex with them. I don't see guardsmen holding down an ork or, gods forbid, and Necron and...

.. well... not until next years' Golden demon anyway.

I'm not saying the Imperium views the Eldar as unthinking, I was meaning animal more in the non human, indeed the non-people sense of the term. And given the fear and hatred and mistrust of the xenos, I don't think this does represent a sensible or "common scene to the horrors of war" scene.

I'm sure there are people in the setting who fantasise about the exotic or the forbidden, to an extent. Just like there are in the real world. But that's so uncommon that it is far, far from usual or readily described as plausible.

The difference to playing games with toy soldiers doing war/murder and toy soldiers in a rape scene in this context is HUGE.

Yes they are both terrible, but play fighting and war are waay more acceptable than rape.

Imagine a different context. Imagine young boys outside that play everyday with shooting each other with toy guns, sword fighting, and plain having a fake battle (every kid has been doing this since the beginning of time, because we are wired to do this), now imagine those same boys, grabbing a young girl (possibly your young daughter) and pretend rape her, then pretend rape her everyday they see her.

I don't care what country you are from or what culture or taboo's are present/lacking. There is a line you draw when it comes to THAT kind of violence. It is a violence of control, humiliation, and absolute dominance that goes beyond war, but to a far more personal level. Any rape help groups, survivors, and councilors will tell you this. Rape is NOT a game and has no place in any game.

It's an ugly and distasteful topic to have spent so much time on modelling. The problem with saying that we are all happy with death and mutilation so it's silly to worry about the lesser crime of rape is that rape is not like murder or other physical assaults, it's a rather different beast in my observations.

The concept of rape has a profound effect upon people, there's something deeply affecting and instinctual about the reaction of disgust towards it, which is why it is taboo. We've all seen war films where people die, but a rape scene in a film can be incredibly powerful and upsetting to a lot of people not least people who have actually suffered from rape.

I really don't think this is the sort of thing we want to do with our plastic men. It's similar to people who make excessively gory scenes which glorify torture and horrible deaths, but rape probably stirs up even more unpleasant feelings again. Sure this is a game where people die and get blown to bits, but that's true of many computer games. Ironically it's fairly easy to kill people in games and not feel greatly affected by it, it's easy to dissociate yourself, but in games where you are supposed to rape people (such as the controversial Rapelay) the idea alone is enough to make me sick because it goes to a level that merely running people over in GTA does not.

I don't think this scene is particularly clever or insightful, it's highly distasteful and unpleasant and even more so is the fascination of the eldar as a sexual being with large breasts. I think you're on very dangerous ground to create a scene or painting and then overtly sexualise the rape victim, it creates a very mixed message, are we supposed to enjoy the appearance of the eldar despite the fact she's about to be raped or are we supposed to somehow emphasise with the soldiers, is it supposed to excuse them? I seriously hope not, and what I'm left with is someone creating a scene that is desperate to be controversial while being unable to detach themselves from the adolescent "look bewbs!" approach to modelling female figures in any setting.

But nobody is suggesting writing a set of rules to say 'After loosing combat by more than five wounds all the remaining models are gang rapped by the victors.' It is not being put into the game it is a diorama depicting a potential act. And on you point about what children are playing, if my kids strated to pretend to crucify their friends to the front of the Land Rover I would be very worried, yet if I post a pic of my Khorne Rhino with an Imperial Fist crucified on the front no one will care that much.

padixon wrote:The difference to playing games with toy soldiers doing war/murder and toy soldiers in a rape scene in this context is HUGE.

Yes they are both terrible, but play fighting and war are waay more acceptable than rape.

Imagine a different context. Imagine young boys outside that play everyday with shooting each other with toy guns, sword fighting, and plain having a fake battle (every kid has been doing this since the beginning of time, because we are wired to do this), now imagine those same boys, grabbing a young girl (possibly your young daughter) and pretend rape her, then pretend rape her everyday they see her.

I don't care what country you are from or what culture or taboo's are present/lacking. There is a line you draw when it comes to THAT kind of violence. It is a violence of control, humiliation, and absolute dominance that goes beyond war, but to a far more personal level. Any rape help groups, survivors, and councilors will tell you this. Rape is NOT a game and has no place in any game.

I see what you mean, and I concur that rape and war are not the same when put in the context of children playing.

But would you want to see children playing "torture" or "genocide" or "officer executes the prisoner" games? I hope you would not. And while I also agree that 'we are wired' to play games of fighting, I doubt this includes the above-mentioned examples.

But those topics are fine in modelling and wargaming ficton.

What I am saying is not that rape should be an okay topic for wargaming fiction. What I am saying is it should be just as acceptable or unacceptable as a fictional topic as torture, genocide or executing helpless prisoners or civilians.

So either you condemn both or neither, and if you do the former, you probably should stop posting on a forum dedicated to games that include those topics in their fictional context.


Addendum: rape certainly has a more profound effect on the victims psyche than murder, since in the latter case, there is no psyche left to damage. But that is even besides the point: have you never found an image of actual torture affecting you emotionally? We often don't mind violence in movies or games because the victims are, essentially, extras without any personality whatsoever. But as soon as someone with whom we identify becomes a victim, we suddenly react emotionally. And rape in movies or games never happens to the bad guys.

padixon- I think you just summarised very well what I wanted to say myself. Thanks

Exactly, but don't higher levels of violence disturb you? For example if you saw a movie with a guy getting shot, and there was no blood because of the budget you wouldn't even blink. But a movie with a whole family getting butchered by a guy with an ax is far more disturbing. Both are murders, but one is graphically more disturbing. Now take that up another notch and have the guy with the ax systematically rape the family while butchering them...The movie is now very violent and very disturbing.

Its essentially a mental scale. I agree a toy being crucified on a rhino is a bit disturbing, but you can take that up a notch or two can't you?

The question is should you. This is a game, and we all have our limits. Rape is a limit that should defiantly not be given context in this game because it just goes too far, even uber violent scenes can go too far.

I stick by what I said earlier, rape has no place in any game.

I could take it or leave it, color me unimpressed.

I/E GW can pop out the dark eldar range, one of wich has a couple of slavewomen on it, a range of "Wych Elves that are top heavy and in some quarters, painted naked, and the whole rip off the face and wear it as a mask line of clothing.

Ad nausium.

We've seen slannish with and without T and A, along with the multiples of the imperiums way of dealing with the Alien, the demon and the heritic. ( Pentient engine, arcoflagellent, inquisition factions with and without demons...)

To me, it is someone taking the work to the extreme, and running with it just to get a rise out of others.

Great effort, but I'd be impressed if the subject of the excersize was a Tau, a genestealer hybrid, or a slannish demonette.

Using an Eldar is, to me, just so CPT Obvious that it isn't really worth the effort, IMO. It might be just me, but this is the right sort of a piece to get the wrong sort of attention from the PC police, and give yet another hand wringing liberal yuppy type something else to ban. "Heaven forbid you let your child play 40K.... They are a bunch of rapists and murderers if you play that game..."

I can already see the fallout that this crap is going to produce.

That's probably what bothers me most, the fact that this hobby has such a bad reputation as it is without all the sex and gak, and we just keep creating more and better reasons for people to keep judging us all by.

Sidstyler wrote:That's probably what bothers me most, the fact that this hobby has such a bad reputation as it is without all the sex and gak, and we just keep creating more and better reasons for people to keep judging us all by.

To be honest I have never heard wargamers being referred to as those who are obsessed with sex, drugs and rolacola it is more sad, balding, beardy little men painting in a badly lit room having nerd rage about toy soldiers.

The thing is I don't know why everyone is crying rape for. There's no rape in the picture, so why is it disgusting for? Is it because it's got boobs and some folks don't like boobs?

See, my point is people are presuming. There's a guy under doing his belt - maybe he's undoing it to whip the xeno bitch before that guy shoots her in the head?

Now, even those Guardsmen were engaging in a sexual act with that xeno scum and a gun pointed as said alien then it would be too graphic and disgusting..

Ed_Bodger wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:That's probably what bothers me most, the fact that this hobby has such a bad reputation as it is without all the sex and gak, and we just keep creating more and better reasons for people to keep judging us all by.

To be honest I have never heard wargamers being referred to as those who are obsessed with sex, drugs and rolacola it is more sad, balding, beardy little men painting in a badly lit room having nerd rage about toy soldiers.

Oh, you'd be suprised.

D and D is the tool of the devil, if you ask some of those PC types. If you start playing it, according to some, you will sprout horns and bark at the moon.

The fact that people take something to the extreame without thinking of the reprocusions, and then you have yet others who take the reprocusions to the extreme is what it all boils back down to for the rest of us.

What we get to look forward to is what JJ is going to say in his next Standard Bearer... "Oh, you silly kids, please don't !@#rape the eldar. They are much to fragile for that. For good !@#raping, try a Snotling."

And then to top it off, the beardy little men tag doesn't help much, when you have some of the extremes of people that we do in the hobby.

You need to see true nerdrage to believe it.

Such great skill yet such a crappy idea

padixon wrote:Exactly, but don't higher levels of violence disturb you? For example if you saw a movie with a guy getting shot, and there was no blood because of the budget you wouldn't even blink. But a movie with a whole family getting butchered by a guy with an ax is far more disturbing. Both are murders, but one is graphically more disturbing. Now take that up another notch and have the guy with the ax systematically rape the family while butchering them...The movie is now very violent and very disturbing.

Its essentially a mental scale. I agree a toy being crucified on a rhino is a bit disturbing, but you can take that up a notch or two can't you?

The question is should you. This is a game, and we all have our limits. Rape is a limit that should defiantly not be given context in this game because it just goes too far, even uber violent scenes can go too far.

I stick by what I said earlier, rape has no place in any game.

That is an opinion I can respect.

However, to me, a crucified and obviously tortured human nailed to the front of a rhino, or an inquisitor executing an innocent whose only mistake was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (thus seeing a daemon, for example) is no less disturbing than rape. In fact, I would regularly cringe at the thought were it not for this kind of fictional distance one develops when reading fiction.

The idea that people would violate others, especially the idea of a regime that employs systematic violence like that, is absolutely horrid to me, whether it involves rape or not. As a story, however, not connected to any real person, I can read or see or hear it and even enjoy it.

Maybe it is a subconscious connection to real friends, real persons that makes it unbearable to see such a scene as a model? And in that case, that is more likely to happen regarding rape than regarding systematic violence or people tortured, because it is less likely to know people who have been tortured or murdered than people who have been raped?

Wow, you lot are arguing about something that isnt even in the diorama.

All's I see is some great models about to get stabbed by a sneaky Eldar hottie. You know what the Guard are thinking but it hasnt happened yet. Get over it.

Quote from artist:

Well, this is aggressive contact indeed. Outcomes are unpredictable...

Says it all really.

Sure it could go bad for her. But it hasnt in this diorama. Its the 'idea' that it could happen that makes people uncomfortable.

Now, I think ill go look up some Slaanash and Dark Eldar models...

Love the diorama.

You go girl.

Where do you draw the line?

To the people who say they dont have a problem with it because it depicts what happens in war, what would you feel if it was a figure of a child instaed of the Eldar? That happens in war to...

This hobby is about playing fantasy games with toy soldiers, what does the diorama have to do with that?

I know where I draw my line and this is way past it...

Mick

This hobby is also about painting and modelling, which has awful lot to do with the diorama. It is also about storytelling, which has an awful lot to do with the diorama. Take a broader view.

No.

At the end of the day its glorified toy soldiers with guys way older than they should be, sitting around making pew pew noises. Its not a deep artistic project funded by the Holocaust Museum. Its not art to make you think.

Its a game that has Hello Kitty space marines. Seriously get a grip.

Art is what you think is art. And if the person who made this diorama decided he wanted to do art, then he did - in his world. And in mine, too. Art is not definable.

Paraphrased: Art cares neither whence the inspiration, nor whence the materials flow.

Frazzled wrote:No.

At the end of the day its glorified toy soldiers with guys way older than they should be, sitting around making pew pew noises. Its not a deep artistic project funded by the Holocaust Museum. Its not art to make you think.

Its a game that has Hello Kitty space marines. Seriously get a grip.

So....

The art in the GW art books isn't art?
GD entries, despite looking amazing, aren't art?
Shakespeare, being a written words, isn't art?
Music isn't art?
Michelangelo's painting on the Sistine chapel isn't art because it stems from religion?
Art isn't art because it is always inspired by something else that isn't art?

Thus, in your statement, art doesn't exist. If you want my opinion, art is all or nothing. I can see it every where from the sounds of where I live and work to the colour of the buildings where I live. Real good art makes you think and look. This diorama has spawned multiple, multi page threads about it talking about the moral and ethnic complications of the piece, for me, this means the diorama is good art.

Skylifter wrote:Art is what you think is art. And if the person who made this diorama decided he wanted to do art, then he did - in his world. And in mine, too. Art is not definable.

Paraphrased: Art cares neither whence the inspiration, nor whence the materials flow.

Blah blah. Its such a bland definition that anything and nothing is art. If I pee in the dirt and take a picture. Is that art?




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wizard12 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:No.

At the end of the day its glorified toy soldiers with guys way older than they should be, sitting around making pew pew noises. Its not a deep artistic project funded by the Holocaust Museum. Its not art to make you think.

Its a game that has Hello Kitty space marines. Seriously get a grip.

So....

The art in the GW art books isn't art?
GD entries, despite looking amazing, aren't art?
Shakespeare, being a written words, isn't art?
Music isn't art?
Michelangelo's painting on the Sistine chapel isn't art because it stems from religion?
Art isn't art because it is always inspired by something else that isn't art?

Thus, in your statement, art doesn't exist. If you want my opinion, art is all or nothing. I can see it every where from the sounds of where I live and work to the colour of the buildings where I live. Real good art makes you think and look. This diorama has spawned multiple, multi page threads about it talking about the moral and ethnic complications of the piece, for me, this means the diorama is good art.

Get real. Its a well painted bit of toysoldiers designed to get your chubby warm. nothing more. All these high nose comments are cute.
It may be art, I'll grant you. But its strictly juvenile meh.

Well, then define art. Good luck.

reds8n wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:I posted a much more complete answer in the DCM forum but basically I think it is a great diorama well modelled, well painted and thought provoking.

How is it thought provoking ?

the one thought i had was 'basement dwelling pervert'

just because it happens in reality, and probably does happen in the 40k universe doesn't mean the maker of the peice is trying to make a message. he probably has a fetish, just like fanfic bdsm writers aren't doing it to make an artistic point, they are just getting their rocks off

BluntmanDC wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:I posted a much more complete answer in the DCM forum but basically I think it is a great diorama well modelled, well painted and thought provoking.

How is it thought provoking ?

the one thought i had was 'basement dwelling pervert'

just because it happens in reality, and probably does happen in the 40k universe doesn't mean the maker of the peice is trying to make a message. he probably has a fetish, just like fanfic bdsm writers aren't doing it to make an artistic point, they are just getting their rocks off

Exactly. If I want reality I'm not playing 40K. We're talking killer fungi for crying out loud.

Here's the part that gets me. The painting and conversation is absolutely excellent. But instead of OMG BEWBIES! if they had a fully clothed eldar survivor there the Pants down Guardsman #1 doing something slightly different it would be excellent. The diorama of discovering an eldar xenos survivor alone would have been excellent, and would have allowed viewer the ease to review the artistic aspects. But now its just "OMG BEWBIES look what they're gonna do Heh heh." It went from discussing Rafael to Beavis and Butthead.

Frazzled wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

wizard12 wrote:My previous post

Get real. Its a well painted bit of toysoldiers designed to get your chubby warm. nothing more. All these high nose comments are cute.
It may be art, I'll grant you. But its strictly juvenile meh.

I don't think it is juvenile. On diorama in real life, the eldar would suitable covered. We'd have to look very closely to make out the fine details such as the breasts, the soldier undoing his belt, the knife, the expressions on the soldiers, ect,ect. Juvenile, would be if the elder's breasts were incredibly, stupidly large, completely uncovered along with less of her armour and the soldiers all looked as if Christmas had come early and were in the middle of the act.

Would people not be talking about this so much if the elder was fully dressed? Maybe; but then the guardsman holding part of the breastplate is out of the diorama and as oadie mentioned, he plays an important role in the piece.

But we're all entitled to our opinions; and I doubt peoples opinions on this subject will change. Therefore, this thread will go on for eternity (or maybe slightly less time).

wizard12 wrote: if the elder's breasts were incredibly, stupidly large,

..they're not ? Really ?

Very well painted and I find the work no more offensive than the subject matter is when presented in book or movie form. This is just a medium you don't usually see it in. Would it be acceptable if they had blown her to bits and were smacking each other with her body parts? I will say though that it is an ugly topic.

reds8n wrote:

wizard12 wrote: if the elder's breasts were incredibly, stupidly large,

..they're not ? Really ?

Exactly.

Gridge wrote:Very well painted and I find the work no more offensive than the subject matter is when presented in book or movie form. This is just a medium you don't usually see it in. Would it be acceptable if they had blown her to bits and were smacking each other with her body parts? I will say though that it is an ugly topic.

No its still wouldn't be acceptable and at the risk of getting boring view this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women or google The Rape of The Sabine, or Leda+Swan.

The diorama on show is poorly executed and posed.

It is offensive and that's not even thinking about the subject matter.

Frazzled wrote:

reds8n wrote:

wizard12 wrote: if the elder's breasts were incredibly, stupidly large,

..they're not ? Really ?

Exactly.

Oh, I'm sorry for paying attention to the whole diorama instead of the eldar's breasts.

wizard12 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

reds8n wrote:

wizard12 wrote: if the elder's breasts were incredibly, stupidly large,

..they're not ? Really ?

Exactly.

Oh, I'm sorry for paying attention to the whole diorama instead of the eldar's breasts.

try to play the superior Dance now are we? As OMG Boobies plays center stage for the entire diorama, you're either lying, or you're blind. Which is it?

Ed_Bodger wrote:Reds8n you obviously haven,t been to Wales if you think humans won't rape animals (although they claim the sheep like it and push back)

Frazzled wrote:

wizard12 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

reds8n wrote:

wizard12 wrote: if the elder's breasts were incredibly, stupidly large,

..they're not ? Really ?

Exactly.

Oh, I'm sorry for paying attention to the whole diorama instead of the eldar's breasts.

try to play the superior Dance now are we? As OMG Boobies plays center stage for the entire diorama, you're either lying, or you're blind. Which is it?

I'm not lying, I'm just trying to point out that there is a lot more in the diorama than the eldar's breasts. I'm sorry if you are unable to get over that aspect of the diorama. I understand that people aren't used to seeing breasts on models or in art often but, as I mentioned, there is a piece of artwork right in a main hall of our school with breasts about a foot square (or round really) on it.

Edit: the woman those foot squad (round) breasts are on is about 3 and 1/2 to 4 foot high, and about a 1 and 1/2 to 2 foot across.

Frazzled wrote:try to play the superior Dance now are we? As OMG Boobies plays center stage for the entire diorama, you're either lying, or you're blind. Which is it?

Why exactly is it that you seem to be attacking people over this?

The Dreadnote wrote:

Frazzled wrote:try to play the superior Dance now are we? As OMG Boobies plays center stage for the entire diorama, you're either lying, or you're blind. Which is it?

Why exactly is it that you seem to be attacking people over this?

Attack me I attack back.

So is there anything else to be said or are we down to insulting each other now?

The Dreadnote wrote:

Frazzled wrote:try to play the superior Dance now are we? As OMG Boobies plays center stage for the entire diorama, you're either lying, or you're blind. Which is it?

Why exactly is it that you seem to be attacking people over this?

He's in America and his wiener dogs would have to spend a lot of time in quarantine to get me

It's down to the insults.

I suggest people who wish to continue discussion of the hobby aspect of the diorama join the thread in Painting & Modelling Showcase Forum.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/333948.page

(INSERT NAME AS REQUIRED) clearly hasn't got much experience in looking at boobs, hence that forms the main focus of their attention.

I'm more interested in how the water effect was created on the sides of the diorama.

Frazzled wrote:

The Dreadnote wrote:

Frazzled wrote:try to play the superior Dance now are we? As OMG Boobies plays center stage for the entire diorama, you're either lying, or you're blind. Which is it?

Why exactly is it that you seem to be attacking people over this?

Attack me I attack back.

I'm sorry if it came out as an attack on you, but as I mentioned it was supposed to point out that there is a lot more going on in the diorama.

wizard12 wrote:

The Dreadnote wrote:

Frazzled wrote:try to play the superior Dance now are we? As OMG Boobies plays center stage for the entire diorama, you're either lying, or you're blind. Which is it?

Why exactly is it that you seem to be attacking people over this?

He's in America and his wiener dogs would have to spend a lot of time in quarantine to get me

Nay nay young man. You forgot the second part to the unholy alliance. Its Weiner Dogs-Cthulu. I am sure our calamari gifted comrades can spirit a Weiner Dog strike team quickly across the pond and up the Thames. Your ankles are on notice !

I think that this diorama is doing something that I daresay few other 40k dioramas have done. It has people talking, debating, angry, passionate, in other words it is art. I can't think of any Golden Demon award winning dioramas I have seen that made me go "Wow, this is making me feel uncomfortable." and leads right into one of the central conceits of the hobby. If he depicted a demon prince ripping a Sister of Battle in half over its head and drinking the gushing blood I imagine many people would be saying "Wow, that's gruesome but cool" yet we have an Eldar potentially about to be raped and good lord our hobby is under assault by a pervert. I think it is fething genius that this diorama has made its point so elegantly. Violence is fine but don't you dare bring sex into our toy soldier hobby. It's silly.

Again, the actual scene itself is disturbing but one cannot deny that it has people talking and when was the last time that happened?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think that this diorama is doing something that I daresay few other 40k dioramas have done. It has people talking, debating, angry, passionate, in other words it is art. I can't think of any Golden Demon award winning dioramas I have seen that made me go "Wow, this is making me feel uncomfortable." and leads right into one of the central conceits of the hobby. If he depicted a demon prince ripping a Sister of Battle in half over its head and drinking the gushing blood I imagine many people would be saying "Wow, that's gruesome but cool" yet we have an Eldar potentially about to be raped and good lord our hobby is under assault by a pervert. I think it is fething genius that this diorama has made its point so elegantly. Violence is fine but don't you dare bring sex into our toy soldier hobby. It's silly.

Again, the actual scene itself is disturbing but one cannot deny that it has people talking and when was the last time that happened?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think that this diorama is doing something that I daresay few other 40k dioramas have done. It has people talking, debating, angry, passionate, in other words it is art. I can't think of any Golden Demon award winning dioramas I have seen that made me go "Wow, this is making me feel uncomfortable." and leads right into one of the central conceits of the hobby. If he depicted a demon prince ripping a Sister of Battle in half over its head and drinking the gushing blood I imagine many people would be saying "Wow, that's gruesome but cool" yet we have an Eldar potentially about to be raped and good lord our hobby is under assault by a pervert. I think it is fething genius that this diorama has made its point so elegantly. Violence is fine but don't you dare bring sex into our toy soldier hobby. It's silly.

Again, the actual scene itself is disturbing but one cannot deny that it has people talking and when was the last time that happened?

wizard12 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

The Dreadnote wrote:

Frazzled wrote:try to play the superior Dance now are we? As OMG Boobies plays center stage for the entire diorama, you're either lying, or you're blind. Which is it?

Why exactly is it that you seem to be attacking people over this?

Attack me I attack back.

I'm sorry if it came out as an attack on you, but as I mentioned it was supposed to point out that there is a lot more going on in the diorama.

Then my apologies back. unfortunately weiner strike teams have already been dispatched. I can't lie to you about your chances, but it has ben known that large quantities of bacon as an offering to the Weiner Dog God Pair of Mitzi und Schmitzi have been occasionally effective in the past.

Yeah I think we're done here.