Right guys, some of you may already be aware of this but some may not. This will mainly affect those hobbyists in the UK but may well have a knock on effect on the rest of the world, although this remains to be seen.

In January the British Government shall be increasing VAT to 20% from 17.5.%. This is in response to the period when they reduced VAT during the recession to 15% and unfortunately will be for the forseeable future.

What this means is that prices will rise, and most relevant to the majority of us is that GW prices will increase. Whilst it isn't neccesarily a massive hike, I know there are those who already believe that GW product is overpriced and like to inform the world about it. So when the inevitable price rise happens it should be noted that this not GW who are doing it, but the British Government.

The other point to note, and one which is not a particular burden (unless you work in a store and have to reprice EVERYTHING! Grumble, grumble....) is that product will likely have silly prices. So no longer will things have nice round numbers, Terminators @ £27.00 for example, but will more than likely be something like £27.46. Paints for £2.38 and Battleforces for £51.23 etc (these are just examples to demonstrate the point and not actual GW prices before I'm picked up on it!)

So sometime in January the prices will rise for this very reason and as much as some would like it to be (and will no doubt still post that it is!) it is NOT GW's doing. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but hope this has been a heads up for you guys so it doesn't come as a shock to you when everything gets even more expensive than it already is.

As soon as I have any wind of actual GW prices post VAT increase I'll let you know! Or if anyone has any more info on this then please feel free correct me.

/rage

jk. I live in the US, and no longer buy from the GW directly (save for paint)
So it shouldn't affect me that badly.

A good post Decapitator, very well informed.

For me at least though, just about the only GW thing I buy these days are the novels and that's Black Library.
Nonetheless, well said.

Ah I knew they would do it

All british manufactures are hit by it.

Bad time for me to have started a tank army then. :/

The Blood Pact will have to get by on foot then.

Aye, thats a universal change for the UK.. hell it's going cause me a headache here in the shop.

I'm not looking forward to chasing all the errors I suspect will come with I.T's 'the computer will change it all for you automatically via download' rubbish.

I wouldn't be concerned here in the U.S as our GW products are namely made out of Memphis. Although I must sale my international sales have been really picking up lately so it's kind of a good thing for us sellers here in the U.S.

The Decapitator wrote:The other point to note, and one which is not a particular burden (unless you work in a store and have to reprice EVERYTHING! Grumble, grumble....) is that product will likely have silly prices. So no longer will things have nice round numbers, Terminators @ £27.00 for example, but will more than likely be something like £27.46. Paints for £2.38 and Battleforces for £51.23 etc (these are just examples to demonstrate the point and not actual GW prices before I'm picked up on it!)

That's assuming that GW does nothing but pass on the increase. Previous behaviour suggests that they will take the opportunity to push prices even higher and blame it on the VAT.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Aye, thats a universal change for the UK.. hell it's going cause me a headache here in the shop.

I'm not looking forward to chasing all the errors I suspect will come with I.T's 'the computer will change it all for you automatically via download' rubbish.

very true, but it's not so much that I'm worried about, it's the fact that we've got to go around and reprice everything in store, with random prices too! That just a pain in the backside whatever way you look at it!

Hey, maybe GW will soak up the VAT increase themselves rather than pass it on to the customers...

Fifty wrote:Hey, maybe GW will soak up the VAT increase themselves rather than pass it on to the customers...

Probably not

A man can dream,though. A man can dream.

Indeed I'd imagine we might have heard more rumblings of the increase by now. They might just be soaking it up! They put the prices down when it dropped (making change in the till a nightmare!) as to not do so was a dick move. But they won't necessarily raise them.

Hope that makes sense!

Now if you'll excuse me, Grandad has just bunged £100 into my account for Christmas, so I'm orf to procure Dreadstone Blight afore the shop shuts. Reallly should have checked my account before leaving the store!

Fifty wrote:Hey, maybe GW will soak up the VAT increase themselves rather than pass it on to the customers...

Nope and what they will also do is use the VAT increase to sneak in further price rises so that the prices are nicely rounded off...

Yeah. Good thing I'm going to be buying the next army I want to start in bulk this Christmas.

Fifty wrote:Hey, maybe GW will soak up the VAT increase themselves rather than pass it on to the customers...

That sir is asking way to much they couldn't handle it

I think instead of putting up prices by , like 46 pence or so , they will increase them by £1-£10 , and blame the vat rise ,although this isn't much insurance , a manager said they shouldnt and this was only a few days ago , but like i said this means nothing.But as the op said , just buy from other sources.

*sigh* price increases , guess how much a reaver titan body will be if fw put on the vat increase (which personaly i doubt) £480 , but if you have the money for a titan you'll probably be willing to pay slightly more.

my two penneth

'claw

The base MSRP won't change. VAT is like sales tax in the US no company alters their prices based on different states tax rates.

You guys have to pay VAT on internet sales also correct? Americans dodge sales tax by ordering everything on the internet or driving to Deleware.

They decreased their prices when VAT decreased, and they will have to increase them due to the increase, it is very unlikely that a 30 pence increase in the cost of a tank will cause GW to increase prices by another couple of quid to "round off the numbers".

Bah. Another thread about GW price rises!!?! Grumbles.

(That was a joke).

My thoughts are, and these are in no way substantiated as this is just my ideas, that GW may initially put prices up in line with the 20% rate resulting in weird (and slightly annoying) prices. Then in around 6 months time or whenever they are next planning on a price review, they will modify and possibly increase the prices to a more manageable and business/consumer friendly, acceptable set of pricing lines.

Just a thought anyway, whilst they could do all this at the same time as the VAT increase I highly doubt that they would as they are aware that this could be potentially damaging to the business as their customers just wouldn't put up with another price increase so soon. Give people a chance to get used to it, and the initial reasons for it as they are out of GW's control, and the fallout shouldn't be anywhere near as problematic.

Dont care. I dont buy GW anymore much.

carmachu wrote:Dont care. I dont buy GW anymore much.

And this contributes to the thread, how?

The Decapitator wrote:...they will modify and possibly increase the prices to a more manageable and business/consumer friendly, acceptable set of pricing lines.

Don't you ever get the slightest twinge of shame or self-loathing when you say things like this?

The prices are being adjusted, and posters are going up in stores about it, put mine up yesterday. Really not looking forward to having to re-price everything (other than books) on the day!

AlexHolker wrote:

The Decapitator wrote:...they will modify and possibly increase the prices to a more manageable and business/consumer friendly, acceptable set of pricing lines.

Don't you ever get the slightest twinge of shame or self-loathing when you say things like this?

I think you misunderstand me, what I mean is that they may change the price lines in the future so that they are round numbers or the usual £x and 99p. For example Terminators would go from random price (ex: £27.46) to business/consumer friendly and acceptable price (£27.99/£28.00).

I don't mean that it is a good thing to increase prices for no reason which is what I believe you have taken from my thoughts. However if I am wrong I apologise, but please elaborate on your comment as I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Just because I have started a thread informing the community about potential price rises, and my thoughts on how GW might try and get around certain pricing issues in no way makes me a proponent of increasing prices. Once again I apologise if my comments have mislead or confused anyone in any way whatsoever, and would appreciate comments if this is the case so I am able to make sure I explain myself clearer in the future.

The Decapitator wrote:

carmachu wrote:Dont care. I dont buy GW anymore much.

And this contributes to the thread, how?

And responding to it contributes how?

carmachu wrote:

The Decapitator wrote:

carmachu wrote:Dont care. I dont buy GW anymore much.

And this contributes to the thread, how?

And responding to it contributes how?

And commenting to this contributes h- sorry, couldn't resist!

carmachu wrote:

The Decapitator wrote:

carmachu wrote:Dont care. I dont buy GW anymore much.

And this contributes to the thread, how?

And responding to it contributes how?

Because I was legitimately asking you if you had a reason for making the statement you did knowing that it makes no real contribution to the thread. If you were able to give me an actual answer which proved that you had a valid reason behind your post rather than it being an argumentative and bloody minded comment then I would have apologised to you for making assumptions.

However, as it stands I believe I was still correct in asking what your post contributes as on the face of it, it doesn't appear to bring anything to the discussion. Which you actually re-enforced yourself by essentially repeating what I had said back to me in an effort to make it look like I had nothing to say either.

The Decapitator wrote:Just a thought anyway, whilst they could do all this at the same time as the VAT increase I highly doubt that they would as they are aware that this could be potentially damaging to the business as their customers just wouldn't put up with another price increase so soon. Give people a chance to get used to it, and the initial reasons for it as they are out of GW's control, and the fallout shouldn't be anywhere near as problematic.

In all honesty, the time between price increases has never stopped them from doing it before. The same goes for the perceived fallout; there are always a lot of complaints, but most people keep on putting out despite legitimate criticism over costs.

Here's the best solution for you... buy from the U.S. Your currency goes further here, and you don't pay VAT, or our taxes for that matter. Well that actually depends ont he state you order from as some states require that sales tax be put on no matter who buys it. Thankfully mine doesn't.. sooo shamless self permotion here battleroadgames.com. _.

Whilst the costs will invariably go up, as the OP says this is down to an increase in VAT. They might go further to make pricing easier to understand £4.90 instead of £4.83 (only an example).
The thing is even when GW put their prices up last year they had no chioce, the prices of commodities were going up all the time.

We live in an age where oil prices influence almost every other cost on the planet so either way we are stuffed until we live in the eutopian paradise akin to Star Trek where money is irrelevant and we can all have whatever we want.

It's strange how most market economists said lowering the VAT was bad because they have to raise VAT once the market steadied. Hey Presto! 18 months later and VAT has to go up.

I think it's best we comment only on when GW is forced to change prices because of VAT changes.

Material costs go down as well as up you know, but GW prices don't.

What is VAT?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and it is still them raising their own prices. Wether or not it is there fault or not is semantics.

GalacticDefender wrote:What is VAT?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and it is still them raising their own prices. Wether or not it is there fault or not is semantics.

Basically taxes.

from wiki

A value added tax (VAT) is a form of consumption tax. It is a tax on the "value added" to a product or material, from an accounting view, at each stage of its manufacture or distribution. The "value added" to a product by a business is the sale price charged to its customer, minus the cost of materials and other taxable inputs. A VAT is like a sales tax in that ultimately only the end consumer is taxed. It differs from the sales tax in that, with the latter, the tax is collected and remitted to the government only once, at the point of purchase by the end consumer. With the VAT, collections, remittances to the government, and credits for taxes already paid occur each time a business in the supply chain purchases products from another business. The reason businesses end up paying no tax is that at the time they sell the product, they receive a credit for all the tax they have paid to suppliers.

I would be surprised if it impacts on the rest of the world - most VAT/GST systems make exports 'zero rated' - meaning that if the product is exported, no tax is applied to the sale.

Further, as a zero rated product, manufacturers and all the other businesses in the supply chain can claim back any tax on inputs, meaning that ultimately no VAT/GST is borne on the exported product.

Grimstonefire wrote:I think it's best we comment only on when GW is forced to change prices because of VAT changes.

Material costs go down as well as up you know, but GW prices don't.

The thing is, I only started this thread as a heads up that this is definately going to happen as it is a certainty that the VAT is going up to 20% and as I work for GW I already know for certain that this will change prices. Also as another person stated who also works for GW, he has already put up notifications of said price changes so we are able to comment as I can assure you that this us not a rumour but a fact.

As for the second comment, another poster also stated that when the VAT went down to 15% during the 'recession', GW changed it's prices accordingly and actually reduced them for all products to take this into account. So whilst they might not just reduce prices, at a time when they were not asked to pay as much tax as a business, instead if charging the same amount and making themselves more money they DID reduce prices and passed that saving onto us. Which I'm pretty sure can only be construed as a good thing on their part.

VAT stands for Value Added Tax and us precisely that, a type of Tax. It is set by the Government and is a percentage of money taken from the sale if an eligible product which is then passed onto the Government through the payment of the consumer. The current VAT rate is 17.5% (which has been the standard for many years) which means that if product X is priced at £100, then the sellers profit margin is based on it selling for £82.50 as the Government would take the other £17.50 in taxation. During the 'recession' the British Government reduced VAT down to 15% (something I don't ever recall happenning in my lifetime) which meant that GW were able to pass that discount on to customers. However, as another poster pointed out, when this happened it was stated that at dome point in the near future the Government would have to increase VAT in order to cover the 'deficit'. This is what is happening in January when it goes up to 20% meaning GW's prices will have to rise to reflect that or they stand to have to cover the money from their own profits putting themselves at a potential disadvantage in relation to other businesses. Not only this but 2.5% is a hefty amount of money when you get into the amounts which some companies make. If a company made 10 million in 1 year but decided they wouldn't put the VAT increase in their prices, they would have to pay the Government an extra £250,000 out of their profits. if you owned a business, would you be willing to do that for the sake of saving your customers 50p on a box of £20 Tactical Marines? I wouldn't think you'd be in business very long.

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:/rage

jk. I live in the US, and no longer buy from the GW directly (save for paint)
So it shouldn't affect me that badly.

Even if you do buy from GW direct, most if not all of it will come from a warehouse in the US, so will likely not be effected by European pricing.

Fifty wrote:Hey, maybe GW will soak up the VAT increase themselves rather than pass it on to the customers...

Your kidding right? They started making the FW stuff in China, any price lowering there? nope. However lots of recasts already.... They have no problem passing cost to thier customers.

Regards,
Carl

Grimstonefire wrote:Material costs go down as well as up you know, but GW prices don't.

This is true. Material prices go up and down, but GW prices only move in one direction.

theHandofGork wrote:

Grimstonefire wrote:Material costs go down as well as up you know, but GW prices don't.

This is true. Material prices go up and down, but GW prices only move in one direction.

Again, this is just not true. When the VAT went down to 15% GW REDUCED it's prices, and this was only last year! If that's only 'going one way' then I'd hate to be driven by you! Saying GW have NEVER dropped it's prices is wrong, as was proved last year with the across the board price reductions due to a reduction in VAT.

Its really not too difficult to understand is it?

I wouldn't be concerned here in the U.S as our GW products are namely made out of Memphis.

That is simply not true. There is some manufacturing at Memphis, but a huge percentage of the GW stuff sold here, while distributed from Memphis, is still made in the UK. Except of course for the stuff that's made at GW Shanghai in China.

The Decapitator wrote:

theHandofGork wrote:

Grimstonefire wrote:Material costs go down as well as up you know, but GW prices don't.

This is true. Material prices go up and down, but GW prices only move in one direction.

Again, this is just not true. When the VAT went down to 15% GW REDUCED it's prices, and this was only last year! If that's only 'going one way' then I'd hate to be driven by you! Saying GW have NEVER dropped it's prices is wrong, as was proved last year with the across the board price reductions due to a reduction in VAT.

Its really not too difficult to understand is it?

I didn't see any price reductions in the US, or did I somehow miss it?

I don’t buy from GW anymore as resellers are cheaper but 2.5% isn't a big increase.

If something costs £50 it will be an extra £1.25 on top.

That's not going to influence you buying a battle force or whatever is it?

I do think that GW increasing it prices anymore will be pointless though.

It's the law of diminishing returns. You can keep increasing the price but people will just buy less.

It's happening with fuel in Britain right now. The goverment puts extra tax on fuel frequently but the amount of money generated from it has leveled out. (Pushes up inflation though as deliverys of all goods need fuel to get them to the shops... stupid goverment.)

Anyway I think if GW were to lower the prices theres more chance people will spend more if they can get a full army bought.

theHandofGork - gi ven it was a reduction in UK Sales Tax (VAT) that caused UK prices to drop, its unlikely your prices would drop,

In the UK the price (for consumers) HAS to include VAT, i.e. what you actually pay at the till, unless the norm in the US where a seemingly endless list of extras is added (joke - so if the VAT rate drops then this *should* mean the price you see on the shelves drops as well, assuming the business passes this on.

For the people asking GW to "eat" the 2.5% increase; given this would destroy the effective shop profit margin this is unlikely.

GalacticDefender wrote:Oh, and it is still them raising their own prices. Wether or not it is there fault or not is semantics.

Sorry, what? Really?

How do? how's the dark eldar coming?

Really? I understand GW is a business and that VAT is out of GW's control and that they did lower prices (in the uk) for the period that VAT was reduced but it wasn't that long ago that a Basilisk went from £25 to £30 and my shock troopers when from £12 to £15. What was that hike for?

Don't get me wrog probably still buy the models, just a little concerned that my already exspensive hobby might be getting pricier. Especially with my beastmen in the army in the wings.

GW should really consider eating this increase, for their own sakes. I'm already watching their client base (on a local level, but still) reach stagnation and regression due to their current price points. Raising their prices further is only going to make the hurdle required to get into this hobby even higher for potential players.

Oh well at least i've got most of the stuff for my 750 pts custodes army becasue a poster is now up on the door of my local GW store confirning the rise in price.

This is only another excuse for GW to raise the prices to the point of out pricing thier product.

Sucks, but if they raise any more, I'm going to cut them and stick to my superfigs, pulp city, and other skermish stuff.

If I was a new player, it would be a great time to raid E bay for all of that unwanted christmas love, and return to Gorkamorka and Necromunda!!!

This is only another excuse for GW to raise the prices to the point of out pricing thier product

I don't think thats entirely true. IPT is also going up in addition to VAT.

It just unfortunate that the current British Government are 's who've never heard that you spend your way out of recession. They'd rather tax the hell out of everything and cut essential services.

Grot 6 wrote: This is only another excuse for GW to raise the prices to the point of out pricing thier product.

How do you mean "out pricing their product"? It doesn't make sense as it reads. To me anyway.

I think they mean "pricing their product out of reach of X market"

From my sources: no price increase, just VAT raise. Hence groans of awkward pricing from manager friends....

Wonder how long until the US prices are raised to "match" the increase in the UK price due to VAT. And we'll hear how they were supposedly passing the decrease on to the US as well by mistake or some such. They already have a wonky structure for their US pricing compared to UK, making most things cost anywhere from 3-10 dollars less ordering online from the UK, even taking VAT into account. All that is before you bring UK online discounters like Maelstrom's pricing discount into the equation.

[RANT]

Increasing taxes hurts everyone, but most of all small and medium sized businesses and the middle class. It's only a matter of time before all GW production is done in China or some other country. The more a business or individual is taxed, the more cost saving avenues they need to pursue. It's a pretty simple concept. For reasons unknown to me, Europe and America fail to understand this.

[/RANT]

Grot 6 wrote: This is only another excuse for GW to raise the prices to the point of out pricing thier product.

Sucks, but if they raise any more, I'm going to cut them and stick to my superfigs, pulp city, and other skermish stuff.

If I was a new player, it would be a great time to raid E bay for all of that unwanted christmas love, and return to Gorkamorka and Necromunda!!!

I don't think you understand my post, it's not an excuse on the part of GW to raise prices, it's a VAT rise implemented by the government!

As for those of you who think GW should stump up the money themselves and not follow the 2.5% rise. Would you be happy for GW to close stores, reduce opening times even more and generally offer less to us gamers than they do now, as they would have to do something along these lines in order to balance the books. Nothing in life is free, and if you want GW to stump up hundreds of thousands of pounds so that your tactical marines cost 20p less then be prepared to lose your Thursday gaming nights for example.

Too many people want everything dirt cheap, but still want fantastic models, excellent stories, customer service and a store in every town. VAT is not GW's fault, and they are perfectly entitled to pass it on to us as it isn't their idea to raise VAT. it makes no difference to GW's profits anyway, people seem to forget that GW don't see any extra money as it goes straight to the Government! If you want someone to whinge about, try them!


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SpankHammer III wrote:How do? how's the dark eldar coming?

Really? I understand GW is a business and that VAT is out of GW's control and that they did lower prices (in the uk) for the period that VAT was reduced but it wasn't that long ago that a Basilisk went from £25 to £30 and my shock troopers when from £12 to £15. What was that hike for?

Don't get me wrog probably still buy the models, just a little concerned that my already exspensive hobby might be getting pricier. Especially with my beastmen in the army in the wings.

Yeah buddy, going well. Really I'll at the minute though which isn't so good!

Unfortunately I don't know why GWs prices increased before, however as you said yourself, GW is a business and they will have their reasons. However as you also pointed out, the VAT increase isn't their doing and is such out of their control. They passed on the reduction so really they are perfectly in their rights to pass on the increase. The VAT increase and GWs price increases shouldn't be compared as they are not the same thing and as such shouldn't be talked about as if they were.

The Decapitator wrote: The VAT increase and GWs price increases shouldn't be compared as they are not the same thing and as such shouldn't be talked about as if they were.

Except that's what you did in the title of this thread:

"Re:GW price increase! But it's not their fault!!"

You even used three exclamation points.

And even though a VAT increase isn't a price increase, you do call a VAT decrease a price decrease:

When the VAT went down to 15% GW REDUCED it's prices

Of course, this only happened in the UK, I'm pretty sure here in the US and the rest of the world the prices stayed the same.



So now you don't want to call the VAT increase a price increase? Then what's the point of this thread? I really can't grasp what you're trying to say.

hahaha just read someone say they dropped their prices when VAT dropped.... well i stopped modelling right before that and started when they hiked them back up again! DAMN IT! well there you go. i would go on about politics at this point but i assume there is a rule depicting otherwise

theHandofGork wrote:

The Decapitator wrote: The VAT increase and GWs price increases shouldn't be compared as they are not the same thing and as such shouldn't be talked about as if they were.

Except that's what you did in the title of this thread:

"Re:GW price increase! But it's not their fault!!"

You even used three exclamation points.

And even though a VAT increase isn't a price increase, you do call a VAT decrease a price decrease:

When the VAT went down to 15% GW REDUCED it's prices

Of course, this only happened in the UK, I'm pretty sure here in the US and the rest of the world the prices stayed the same.



So now you don't want to call the VAT increase a price increase? Then what's the point of this thread? I really can't grasp what you're trying to say.

The title of this thread was meant to be ironic, seen as most people already seem to think GW increases it's prices too much as it is. The use of exclamation marks was also meant to portray the 'urgency' and 'importance' of the content if this thread. I also think it's pretty clear but I'll break it down for you anyway, the reason that a VAT increase and a price increase should not be compared is because one is decided by GW as a business and the other is forced in them by an external source and is as such taken out of their hands. And before you say, "Yes, well, GW don't have to pass this on to their customers", Then I suggest you read one of the previous posts where it is explained by a few different people why this is not a very good idea.

As for you not understanding what I am trying to say, I'd be inclined to think the problem may actually lie with you. I think I've explained the purpose of this thread pretty clearly, in fact others have commented on this, and as the vast majority of people who have passed comment on this thread understood it perfectly well, so as I said I'd be inclined to think the problem lies with you.

Why is it that everything on Dakka seems to devolve in arguments and pseudo-insults disguised as constructive comments? I started this thread to inform people of the upcoming VAT increase, and whilst I understand that I've made my personal views known on the subject, I don't understand why people who disagree with the views feel the need to make certain comments instead of just posting their own thoughts on the matter. It always seems to get personal, and there's simply no need for it.

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:/rage

jk. I live in the US, and no longer buy from the GW directly (save for paint)
So it shouldn't affect me that badly.

You actually pay that much for paint?

I buy Citadel Foundation and Metallics as those are the best paints in their class I've had the pleasure of using.

I mostly use Ral Partha, Reaper and VGC or VMC paints for general painting as Citadel colors suck ass in those categories.

The Decapitator wrote:

theHandofGork wrote:

The Decapitator wrote: The VAT increase and GWs price increases shouldn't be compared as they are not the same thing and as such shouldn't be talked about as if they were.

Except that's what you did in the title of this thread:

"Re:GW price increase! But it's not their fault!!"

You even used three exclamation points.

And even though a VAT increase isn't a price increase, you do call a VAT decrease a price decrease:

When the VAT went down to 15% GW REDUCED it's prices

Of course, this only happened in the UK, I'm pretty sure here in the US and the rest of the world the prices stayed the same.



So now you don't want to call the VAT increase a price increase? Then what's the point of this thread? I really can't grasp what you're trying to say.

The title of this thread was meant to be ironic, seen as most people already seem to think GW increases it's prices too much as it is. The use of exclamation marks was also meant to portray the 'urgency' and 'importance' of the content if this thread. I also think it's pretty clear but I'll break it down for you anyway, the reason that a VAT increase and a price increase should not be compared is because one is decided by GW as a business and the other is forced in them by an external source and is as such taken out of their hands. And before you say, "Yes, well, GW don't have to pass this on to their customers", Then I suggest you read one of the previous posts where it is explained by a few different people why this is not a very good idea.

As for you not understanding what I am trying to say, I'd be inclined to think the problem may actually lie with you. I think I've explained the purpose of this thread pretty clearly, in fact others have commented on this, and as the vast majority of people who have passed comment on this thread understood it perfectly well, so as I said I'd be inclined to think the problem lies with you.

Why is it that everything on Dakka seems to devolve in arguments and pseudo-insults disguised as constructive comments? I started this thread to inform people of the upcoming VAT increase, and whilst I understand that I've made my personal views known on the subject, I don't understand why people who disagree with the views feel the need to make certain comments instead of just posting their own thoughts on the matter. It always seems to get personal, and there's simply no need for it.

Way to call out a troll, OP. He was being a turd for the simple sake of being one. If he's smart enough to string together a sentence, he can understand your very simple point of "Hey everyone. GW will be raising prices soon, but they arent doing it to increase profits. They're doing it to maintain their current margin because their taxes are going up."




Anyways, while I understand that GW simply cannot eat a 2.5% hike in prices, it might in fact be a time for them to consider an approach of more sales @ lower margin to see if that nets more money in a financial period due to increased volume of purchases. I think someone else had a post similar to this, and I just wanted to say it in a slightly more plain manner to see if anyone agrees.

I'm glad I just got everything I needed in a big order for my current project. Stupid government, I call revolution and hope someone stabs somebody in British parliament.

I think my problem is that you use inconsistent reasoning.

You don't want to call a tax increase a price increase (though you've labeled it a price increase in both the title of the thread and the original post). But by that logic you can't call a tax decrease a price cut either (which you do). You can try to cover your mistakes by claiming irony for the first point, but you still haven't addressed the second.


You've also ignored several relevant facts:
1. GW prices are already higher then others on the market
2. GW higher prices don't necessarily mean better quality (see Warlord, Perry Bros etc. for examples of similar quality minis which cost less).
3. The prior "price reduction" (ie tax decrease) by GW only affected the UK, for the majority of us, the prices have only moved up.
4. GW has failed to deliver on its claim that moving to plastics would result in lower prices but instead consistently raised its prices even when production costs have lowered.



This is not a personal attack. A personal attack would be: "You're a redshirt who doesn't know what he's talking about." Or maybe the one describing me above: "He was being a turd for the simple sake of being one"


This is a constructive comment: While you say the tax increase isn't a price increase, you also say that GW will further adjust their prices to "business/consumer friendly and acceptable prices." The example you give is moving a box of termies from £27.46 to £28.00. This is a GW price increase, however, as it is "not forced in [sic] them by an external source." So is it just a tax increase, or are we talking about both a tax increase and a GW price rise?

Here is another constructive comment: GW prices are already very high for the product they offer, this small increase is enough for me (and likely others) to buy less. How is this a good decision in a bad economy?

And another one: you're logic is inconsistent and you ignore counter-arguments and relevant facts.

"your", if you're going to highlight others spelling mistakes.

You havent raised any relevant facts that can be ignored. The 2.5% increase in VAT is a price rise, just not a GW price rise - it is a government enforced price rise. Yes, the consumer pays more - but the alternative would push GW into the red (yes, shop margins are that thin. More on that later)

There was also no "will" raise prices to a more business consumer friendly level - just a "may". It will likely depend on whether the VAT rise is permanent or, like the drop, temporary. If permanent then they will simply roll any price rise into their normal schedule. Easy.

You also apparently have little understanding of how thin a margin GW stores, and by consequence the prices they have to sell to resellers, run on. Unlike the competiors you mention GW have a proper retail presence that actually benefits ALL hobby gamers as it gets new people into the game, but this is expensive. So it is a good decision as it keeps the stores open, keeps new gamers coming into the hobby, and keeps the hobby alive *in the long term* - so it is a good Long term decision.

Lastly: the CC decided years back that GW have to operate as a virtual monopoly in this arena, as they are monopoly producer and seller of miniatures. Meaning they actually have very little leeway in pricing - they can't cut prices as they want, they cannot (as in, CANNOT) hold sales, and so on.

You also apparently have little understanding of how thin a margin GW stores, and by consequence the prices they have to sell to resellers, run on. Unlike the competiors you mention GW have a proper retail presence that actually benefits ALL hobby gamers as it gets new people into the game, but this is expensive. So it is a good decision as it keeps the stores open, keeps new gamers coming into the hobby, and keeps the hobby alive *in the long term* - so it is a good Long term decision.

QTF

don't get me wrong I think GW is expensive, but they are damn nice models. I'm not saying that Perry's are bad but IMHO GW are better mainly because of the multipart plastic kits but that might be just personal taste.

Also GW offers something no other wargame does Stores/Hobbycenters whatever you want to call them. My FLGS I get on well with all the guys and they are cool with you just hanging out and talking about the hobby, also the guys who run it won't tolerate TFG's where as a few of the private groups I've been to almost seem to be run by the TFG's

I don't see Flames of war or anyone else with stores. Yeah I know there are plenty of clubs around where you can get the same experience but for them to offer this service (which i can't imagine makes them much profit wise) is brilliant.


This thread seems to be fast getting away from the original point. There is a price hike in the UK but its not their fault its the Gov, let hope it doesn't last for long.

theHandofGork wrote:I think my problem is that you use inconsistent reasoning.

You don't want to call a tax increase a price increase (though you've labeled it a price increase in both the title of the thread and the original post). But by that logic you can't call a tax decrease a price cut either (which you do). You can try to cover your mistakes by claiming irony for the first point, but you still haven't addressed the second.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing over semantics and quoting things out of proportion. They might increase the prices, after the tax rise, to make things easier to see such as rounding up odd figures but the OP didn't say that it would definately be the case; it was conjecture from other posters which mainly fuelled this bit though.

Your first real objection was the OP using three exclamation marks! Now you're doing all you can to argue the toss for some bizarre reason with some spurious claims and strange accusations.

Chill out. You'll need to borrow my avatar soon.

Then close the shops, give the managers the opportunity to open franchises or better still, power them into FLGS.

The shops are kept open to recruit new gamers, if the great leviathan GW actually had someone with the dimmest of understanding of the internet and willingness to invest in clubs and enable independant stores instead of treating them as the enemy, GW wouldn't need to maintain the highstreet presence.

The company is polluted with a paranoia about maintaining absolute control from the top and unwillingness to cooperate and support anything that doesn't have the corporate logo all over it.

Someone should explain to Kirby and co that they are not Weyland Yutani and that cooperation and mutual support within 'the hobby' might avail them more than antagonistic zealotry.


And yes, the price raise will not ultimately be 'to the letter' of the VAT % but rather a rounding up figure for profit and ease of pricing. Looks like I left the UK just in time... Unless they somehow try to justify the US prices suffering a hike at the same time through some convoluted excuse.

Seeing as how 'the internet' forms only a tiny proportion of the greater hobby community, and that even people who buy from stockists benefit GW (because let's face it - the difference you pay in a store really only helps to keep the store open - stockists still pay the stock prices), it doesn't make a whole damn lot of difference.

As far as I've seen GW is great with independent stockists -my old FLGS (I recently moved) was heavily supported by GW and there are no GW stores in the aussie state of Tasmania simply because the independents down there do a great job on their own. The 'markup' is not really a big deal if you're not really a member of the real-life hobby community... since there's no reason for you to contribute and pay real-life prices. Maelstrom is great in that case - if you don't need GW's support to develop your hobby on a personal level then why pay them to do it? I for one am happy to pay full prices at local stores (GW chain or not) because my local clubs and community are actually a pretty important part of the hobby in my opinion.

The internet is pretty cool - hell, I work in IT and I'm never off it - but it's a small fish with a big mouth when it comes down to reality.

MGS - youre talking trash about the price rise. Have you seen the new price lists? No? Then youre just hypothesising. Dont pretend its an absolute.

Fifty wrote:Hey, maybe GW will soak up the VAT increase themselves rather than pass it on to the customers...

I actually laughed at that one. There is no way they'll soak up a few percentage in cost.

Ok guys, I'm really ill at the moment, and haven't really got it in me to spell out to very few argumentative posters what my posts mean. It wouldn't matter anyway as any reason I give for something is quickly brushed aside as me making things up! I mean seriously, I explain why I posted this thread title as it is, ironic, and am told that I'm just making things up to cover my back?!? I wasn't aware that you were in my head at the time of the post! What an absolutely ridiculous statement, and to be honest I wasn't going to even bother replying as it's just a waste of time. Arguing for arguements sake? What do you get out of it? Does it make you feel better?? I am honestly amazed how this thread has gone from a notification of a VAT hike with an ironic title in order to get people interested (no really!) to another thread where some people just can't resist pulling apart peoples comments and putting them down in order to try and get one up on you. Were you bullied at school?

Now I did want to say thank you to (thankfully the majority!) of people who did understand my post and seem to be just as frustrated with those Dakkites who feel they 'have' to argue with everything they see which they don't agree with. Please by all means have your opinions, and please express them! But don't jump all over other peoples posts just because you don't like what they are saying!

Anyway I'm getting sidetracked, thank you guys who understood my post and have saved me from having to write out yet another post banging my head against a brick wall. It is very much appreciated and I hope we can point this thread back in the right direction.

VAT in the UK will be rising to 20% on January 4th, GW Is having to increase it prices to take this raise into account.

Discuss.

Oh, f k it.

You're right. GW prices aren't already high, and if they are, it's not their fault. . It's not their fault that their bloated infrastructure can't handle a 2.5% tax increase. Passing this onto the customer is the only thing they can do- it's not their fault..

That is, of course, the point of this thread right? It's not their fault.

I concede, GW is totally in the right, yet again. It's not their fault.






What's happened to Dakka?

Yay! Eventually, it sinks in.

nosferatu1001 wrote:MGS - youre talking trash about the price rise. Have you seen the new price lists? No? Then youre just hypothesising. Dont pretend its an absolute.

Did you not read the GW staff here confirming the price increase?

Reread the thread, then shut up.

Oh shut up MGS. In context that post was about your supposition that the prices would be increased by *more* than the VAT increase.

They are not.

theHandofGork wrote:Oh, f k it.

You're right. GW prices aren't already high, and if they are, it's not their fault. . It's not their fault that their bloated infrastructure can't handle a 2.5% tax increase. Passing this onto the customer is the only thing they can do- it's not their fault..

That is, of course, the point of this thread right? It's not their fault.

I concede, GW is totally in the right, yet again. It's not their fault.

Why shouldn't pass on a rise in tax? Define why their infrastructure is bloated, without mentioning Stores which are the cornerstone of their business model? Please provide evidence that other wargames manufacturers don't operate on a similar markup?






What's happened to Dakka?

Why shouldn't pass on a rise in tax? Define why there infrastructure is bloated, without mentioning Stores which are the cornerstone of their business model? Please provide evidence that other wargames manufacturers don't operate on a similar markup?

Fifty wrote:Hey, maybe GW will soak up the VAT increase themselves rather than pass it on to the customers...

HA!

theHandofGork wrote:Oh, f k it.

You're right. GW prices aren't already high, and if they are, it's not their fault. . It's not their fault that their bloated infrastructure can't handle a 2.5% tax increase. Passing this onto the customer is the only thing they can do- it's not their fault..

That is, of course, the point of this thread right? It's not their fault.

I concede, GW is totally in the right, yet again. It's not their fault.






What's happened to Dakka?

You know the funniest thing about all this, is that you quite clearly have a problem with GWs pricing as you believe it to be too expensive. Now forgive me if I am wrong, and I apologise if I am, but I'm pretty sure that you are not contractually obliged to take part in this particular hobby! Someone doesn't have a gun to your head 24/7 forcing you to pay for something you obviously have a real problem with! If you don't like it, then don't do it! If you think it's too damn expensive, then stop buying it! Now I know that there are things we all grumble about price wise, there are things which I would prefer to be cheaper. But if I felt so strongly about it that I felt the need to whinge and moan and write sarcastic and facetious messages about it on the Internet, I'd just stop buying it! It's really not that difficult a concept to grasp! And before you say "well, I've already stopped buying GW products!". Then what's your problem? It doesn't affect you so stop seeking every available opportunity to slam GW like your on a personal crusade to shut them down.

In your post you have to descend into sarcasm in an attempt to make a point, but you quite clearly could not have read any of the previous posts! I don't recall saying that anything other than the upcoming VAT increase was not GW's fault?!? And I'm pretty sure nobody else said such things either. So in clutching at straws because you are quite obviously inept at forming a cohesive and accurate argument, you have succeeded in ridiculing yourself. Well done sir!

So can we please, please, please get back on topic! Does anyone have any further infor regarding the VAT increase? ie: Actual price points?

*Edited for spelling.

SpankHammer III wrote:

You also apparently have little understanding of how thin a margin GW stores, and by consequence the prices they have to sell to resellers, run on. Unlike the competiors you mention GW have a proper retail presence that actually benefits ALL hobby gamers as it gets new people into the game, but this is expensive. So it is a good decision as it keeps the stores open, keeps new gamers coming into the hobby, and keeps the hobby alive *in the long term* - so it is a good Long term decision.

QTF

don't get me wrong I think GW is expensive, but they are damn nice models. I'm not saying that Perry's are bad but IMHO GW are better mainly because of the multipart plastic kits but that might be just personal taste.

Also GW offers something no other wargame does Stores/Hobbycenters whatever you want to call them. My FLGS I get on well with all the guys and they are cool with you just hanging out and talking about the hobby, also the guys who run it won't tolerate TFG's where as a few of the private groups I've been to almost seem to be run by the TFG's

I don't see Flames of war or anyone else with stores. Yeah I know there are plenty of clubs around where you can get the same experience but for them to offer this service (which i can't imagine makes them much profit wise) is brilliant.


This thread seems to be fast getting away from the original point. There is a price hike in the UK but its not their fault its the Gov, let hope it doesn't last for long.

The stores should pay for themselves.

IF not then GW should close them becuase they are a bad business choice.

Then they could lower there prices and maybe........(GASP) Advertise!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I love GW product but no longer buy retail and think the stores are kind of a waste. If they used the money the apparently spend on the stores to advertise and run larges scale events more then they could draw in equally as much if not more customers.

(I actually got in through a sibling who got in through DOW)

ChocolateGork wrote:

SpankHammer III wrote:

You also apparently have little understanding of how thin a margin GW stores, and by consequence the prices they have to sell to resellers, run on. Unlike the competiors you mention GW have a proper retail presence that actually benefits ALL hobby gamers as it gets new people into the game, but this is expensive. So it is a good decision as it keeps the stores open, keeps new gamers coming into the hobby, and keeps the hobby alive *in the long term* - so it is a good Long term decision.

QTF

don't get me wrong I think GW is expensive, but they are damn nice models. I'm not saying that Perry's are bad but IMHO GW are better mainly because of the multipart plastic kits but that might be just personal taste.

Also GW offers something no other wargame does Stores/Hobbycenters whatever you want to call them. My FLGS I get on well with all the guys and they are cool with you just hanging out and talking about the hobby, also the guys who run it won't tolerate TFG's where as a few of the private groups I've been to almost seem to be run by the TFG's

I don't see Flames of war or anyone else with stores. Yeah I know there are plenty of clubs around where you can get the same experience but for them to offer this service (which i can't imagine makes them much profit wise) is brilliant.


This thread seems to be fast getting away from the original point. There is a price hike in the UK but its not their fault its the Gov, let hope it doesn't last for long.

The stores should pay for themselves.

IF not then GW should close them becuase they are a bad business choice.

Then they could lower there prices and maybe........(GASP) Advertise!

Shiny new retail model means most stores are indeed now profitable, and the others are on the way.

And without the stores, how do they maintain the levels of recruitment year on year?

(P.S. I've worked in them, and was even on a management course with the company, so you might want to go dig up a few facts prior to your retort mmmkay?)

GW will raise prices to meet the VAT.
Then in June/July, they will adjust their prices to a nice round number that is rounded up.
This will in turn cause a raise in U.S. prices to match GW's own exchange rate.

We saw this the last time it happened.

That's part of how BattleWagons went from $45 to the current $62 in less than 2 years of production.

Its GW's pattern. It will happen.
And each time they will lose sales from a percentage of players, and hope to regain that from new players.

Sometimes I get the feeling that GW doesn't really want growth.
They want to be a certain size, and will cut their own throats to stay that size.

skrulnik wrote:GW will raise prices to meet the VAT.
Then in June/July, they will adjust their prices to a nice round number that is rounded up.
This will in turn cause a raise in U.S. prices to match GW's own exchange rate.

We saw this the last time it happened.

That's part of how BattleWagons went from $45 to the current $62 in less than 2 years of production.

Its GW's pattern. It will happen.
And each time they will lose sales from a percentage of players, and hope to regain that from new players.

Sometimes I get the feeling that GW doesn't really want growth.
They want to be a certain size, and will cut their own throats to stay that size.

Personally, I think they will add a little extra in along with the VAT rise because they know damn well a customer is not going to sit there in the store with a calculator and work out the exact difference between before and after the VAT rise.

To be fair, a lot of other stores will do exactly the same thing too.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Oh shut up MGS. In context that post was about your supposition that the prices would be increased by *more* than the VAT increase.

They are not.

The idea that GW will only increase the model price for the entirety of 2011 by the VAT increase is against the trend of previous years, we usually see an increase in the summer every year.




Also, make me shut up princess.

Mr Mystery wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:

SpankHammer III wrote:

You also apparently have little understanding of how thin a margin GW stores, and by consequence the prices they have to sell to resellers, run on. Unlike the competiors you mention GW have a proper retail presence that actually benefits ALL hobby gamers as it gets new people into the game, but this is expensive. So it is a good decision as it keeps the stores open, keeps new gamers coming into the hobby, and keeps the hobby alive *in the long term* - so it is a good Long term decision.

QTF

don't get me wrong I think GW is expensive, but they are damn nice models. I'm not saying that Perry's are bad but IMHO GW are better mainly because of the multipart plastic kits but that might be just personal taste.

Also GW offers something no other wargame does Stores/Hobbycenters whatever you want to call them. My FLGS I get on well with all the guys and they are cool with you just hanging out and talking about the hobby, also the guys who run it won't tolerate TFG's where as a few of the private groups I've been to almost seem to be run by the TFG's

I don't see Flames of war or anyone else with stores. Yeah I know there are plenty of clubs around where you can get the same experience but for them to offer this service (which i can't imagine makes them much profit wise) is brilliant.


This thread seems to be fast getting away from the original point. There is a price hike in the UK but its not their fault its the Gov, let hope it doesn't last for long.

The stores should pay for themselves.

IF not then GW should close them becuase they are a bad business choice.

Then they could lower there prices and maybe........(GASP) Advertise!

Shiny new retail model means most stores are indeed now profitable, and the others are on the way.

And without the stores, how do they maintain the levels of recruitment year on year?

(P.S. I've worked in them, and was even on a management course with the company, so you might want to go dig up a few facts prior to your retort mmmkay?)

Fair enough. So the stores are no excuse for why there product is so highly priced.

And they could maintain the same levels of recruitment by advertising theie product instead of relying on word of mouth and someone to stumble onto one of their store or their website. But that aint their style so whatever.

And now you show a lack of understanding of how advertising works.

You spend X amount on Advertising one year. This brings in Y additional revenue.

The next year, to maintain growth, you need to shell out for advertising. This brings in Y additional revenue.

So on and so forth. Advertising is expensive. Effective advertising more so. Net result, prices ultimately go up.

And you mention 'stumbling' into stores. Did I not mention you might want to dig up a few facts before your retort?

Me, a bit earlier on wrote:so you might want to go dig up a few facts prior to your retort mmmkay?)

Why yes I did! So, since you clearly have, care to explain how a GW Store manages to continue recruiting new hobbyists year on year?

Another price increase?!?!?

I think I am just going to make D&D and Dark Heresy my full time hobbies now.

Jon Touchdown wrote:Another price increase?!?!?

I think I am just going to make D&D and Dark Heresy my full time hobbies now.

OK for the purposes of reiteration and because seemingly people can't be arsed to read the thread - the price rise is UK ONLY due to a rise in taxes and most probably* won't be felt in other territories.



*GW's price structure permitting. They may decide to hike prices across the board. Who knows.

filbert wrote:

Jon Touchdown wrote:Another price increase?!?!?

I think I am just going to make D&D and Dark Heresy my full time hobbies now.

OK for the purposes of reiteration and because seemingly people can't be arsed to read the thread - the price rise is UK ONLY due to a rise in taxes and most probably* won't be felt in other territories.



*GW's price structure permitting. They may decide to hike prices across the board. Who knows.

This is GW we are talking about lol they will raise all the prices. No special treatment

Actually, Mantic just announced a price increase because of the UK VAT raise.
http://www.manticgames.com/News/Article/21122010-1st-January-2011-Price-Rise.html

Does anyone know when the sales review thing is? Do they have a month for it? I know its been tried a hundred times, but if its in such a small period of time it might be more doable to more people if we suspend purchases on GW product during that time (as opposed to the seemingly indefinite as the other efforts i've seen) then buy aferward.

Just a naive thought from the naive corner.

I've still got quite a few purchases to finish off my army... erg.

I can certainly understand increasing the price of things in the UK due to a VAT increase. American businesses do not eat a sales tax increase, it is passed on to the consumer. It is to be expected and the only people I can blame are those that voted for the increase somewhere in the depths of the government, and even then I don't because it's often supposed to fund a cause that I can agree with.

That being said, I feel a great deal of the price increase animosity is due to GW's past trends in price increases. VAT goes up? Price in UK goes up a bit, and prices get rounded off to a consumer-friendly number. Well, now UK things are more expensive than US, so US ones go up. Price of tin sky-rockets? Well the price of metal models nearly doubles. The cost of producing plastics barely moved, but GW feels that it is such a premium product that there's no reason the price of metal should be so significantly higher than plastic since they're both high quality products and up goes the plastic.

Yes, GW dropped the price a bit when VAT went down. They kept the rest of the massive, massive price hikes. As noted earlier in the thread, the Battle Wagon going from $45 to $62 is not insignificant and we can point to many other models that had similar exceedingly steep hikes in the cost of the same exact product that has not changed (significantly) in the cost to produce or transport.

I'll still buy GW products, just far fewer than I would if they were less expensive and I'll buy more used when I can. At least until this army is complete. Not really sure what I'll do then. Maybe give Mantic's KoW a whirl?

Kroothawk wrote:Actually, Mantic just announced a price increase because of the UK VAT raise.
http://www.manticgames.com/News/Article/21122010-1st-January-2011-Price-Rise.html

So are most of the UK manufacturers (Perry, Victrix, etc)

American producers (like Wargames Factory) are mostly unaffected. Because GW is expansive with plants all over the world, it is unknown whether they would increase it across the board or only to certain locations (the former being likely though)

With the VAT, Where is the breaking point between profit and tax? When is it going to be too expensive to run a company, and the layoffs begin?

MGS - ah typical you. You have now changed the conditions of the argument so yours looks less foolish and unfounded.

The price rise in January is JUST the VAT rise Nothing more.

Any price rise in summer MAY then round these off. WEll, any price rise is almost *certain* to round them off, IF there is a price rise.

Given you were the first person to shout "shut up" I was simply responding in kind. I have no desire to try to make you shut up, just correcting your repeated errors and distortions, while being amused at your contortions in trying to not admit a failure. #

The shops *cannot* eat a 2.5% VAT rise, as their margins are wafer thin. CLosing stores would reduce the recruitment of new gamers, hurting the company in the long run. I assume people calling for shops to close simply fail to grasp this basic bit of economics, despite attempts at educating otherwise.

Oh for God's sake!! What is worng with you people? Is there something in the water which is making you all argumentative and obnoxious little bastards this week?

The OP did us a favour to say that VAT will rise so therefore the price will, in January. It's ended up with people arguing like tosspots over who said, what, where, when and why and what their real intent was even if they didn't say it!

I am also quite dissapointed that throughout Dakka at the moment there's A LOT of hostility and the Mods are happy for this to go on and even adding to the mix with threads being no mans land as people slog it out like gladitorial morons over the nuance of a word.

Grow up people.

Elmodiddly wrote:Oh for God's sake!! What is worng with you people? Is there something in the water which is making you all argumentative and obnoxious little bastards this week?

The OP did us a favour to say that VAT will rise so therefore the price will, in January. It's ended up with people arguing like tosspots over who said, what, where, when and why and what their real intent was even if they didn't say it!

I am also quite dissapointed that throughout Dakka at the moment there's A LOT of hostility and the Mods are happy for this to go on and even adding to the mix with threads being no mans land as people slog it out like gladitorial morons over the nuance of a word.

Grow up people.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

And a Happy New Year!

A moderator wrote:

This thread is throwing off some alerts.

Everyone please keep in mind we are just discussing VAT rates, not the key issues of human life.

nosferatu1001 wrote:MGS - ah typical you. You have now changed the conditions of the argument so yours looks less foolish and unfounded.

Heh, actually you just misrepresented what I'd said, so I'll explain slowly for you (although it's odd you didn't understand the full context, given you're little penchant for RAW absolutism...). What I said was ULTIMATELY to the letter. I don't doubt the initial price rise will be VAT, but ULTIMATELY it will be rounded up to a full figure, more than likely in addition to 'preplanned' price increases, which usually take place during the summer. Typical me indeed...

nosferatu1001 wrote:The price rise in January is JUST the VAT rise Nothing more.

Now who's postulating? You know that for certain no more than I do.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Any price rise in summer MAY then round these off. WEll, any price rise is almost *certain* to round them off, IF there is a price rise.

That was my prediction as well, nice to see we're actually agreeing... And you know as well as I do that they will put the prices up in the summer, as they have for years.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Given you were the first person to shout "shut up" I was simply responding in kind. I have no desire to try to make you shut up, just correcting your repeated errors and distortions, while being amused at your contortions in trying to not admit a failure. #

Nice, you kiss your mother with that passive aggressive mouth of yours? You know full well you jumped into this thread with a hostile response, aimed directly at me. It's a great shame I didn't meet you at The Longest Day in Bristol, I heard you were there but on asking a couple of chaos players, they weren't you. Shame, I'd love to buy you a beer and chat face to face, I'm sure this hostility wouldn't exist 'in the real world'. Anyway, fact remains, you've misread what I was saying, perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly for you to absorb.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The shops *cannot* eat a 2.5% VAT rise, as their margins are wafer thin. CLosing stores would reduce the recruitment of new gamers, hurting the company in the long run. I assume people calling for shops to close simply fail to grasp this basic bit of economics, despite attempts at educating otherwise.

What I had said, again if you'd read my post, was for shops to become franchised and/or become independent stores, removing that huge overhead of a highstreet presence from GW whilst empowering their employees to be able to take on their own businesses and recruit for GW. Independent retailers seems a fairly obvious benefit for GW, buying the stock and promoting it free of charge.


Allow me to requote my post and bold the pertinent bits for you old chap...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Then close the shops, give the managers the opportunity to open franchises or better still, power them into FLGS.

The shops are kept open to recruit new gamers, if the great leviathan GW actually had someone with the dimmest of understanding of the internet and willingness to invest in clubs and enable independent stores instead of treating them as the enemy, GW wouldn't need to maintain the highstreet presence.

And yes, the price raise will not ultimately be 'to the letter' of the VAT % but rather a rounding up figure for profit and ease of pricing. Looks like I left the UK just in time... Unless they somehow try to justify the US prices suffering a hike at the same time through some convoluted excuse.

Hope that helps and mind your blood pressure...

The test will be whether they simply add on the VAT or 'round up' the price increase thus making more money for themselves.

Considering that a box of figures currently £20 will have a very odd price indeed with the VAT increase they may hold off putting on the VAT initially (in the name of good customer service naturally) and then roll in the VAT increase along with a significant price increase in the coming months.

Would be interesting if someone were to calculate exactly how much the VAT rise will be for several 'key' GW items and then compare them to the ticketed prices in January when the rise kicks in and see if GW do apply a little extra on the sly.

Another possibility is that they simply move the summer price rise to January and do just one increase to save time and resource (and immediately add profit earlier).

Elmodiddly wrote:Oh for God's sake!! What is worng with you people? Is there something in the water which is making you all argumentative and obnoxious little bastards this week?

The OP did us a favour to say that VAT will rise so therefore the price will, in January. It's ended up with people arguing like tosspots over who said, what, where, when and why and what their real intent was even if they didn't say it!

I am also quite dissapointed that throughout Dakka at the moment there's A LOT of hostility and the Mods are happy for this to go on and even adding to the mix with threads being no mans land as people slog it out like gladitorial morons over the nuance of a word.

Grow up people.

You must be new here! Welcome to Dakka, and check the ammo feed on your slugga.

Just to throw something in for the folks who are saying that businesses can/should eat tax increases, and you can spend your way out of a recession (puts on econ hat):

1: Companies don't pay taxes, they collect taxes. Since all taxes are levied against companies across the board (ie. by industry or whatever, not "Ok GE pays 20% tax, but Lg pays 16%") there is no competitive advantage to them, and they just add to the cost structure of production. Every company pays the higher tax, so that just becomes the new normal for price. So bear in mind that anytime you vote for a tax increase on X, you are just saying you want to pay more for X.

2: Keynsian economics are working really well here in the US, except for the fact they totally are not. Turns out trillions are not enough blast your way out, despite the fact that our Federal Government is the largest economic actor in the world (or second, depending on how you measure it). The rate at which economists have been back pedaling about the tenants of spending out of recessions is really amusing, en masse breaking every postulate possible to explain why it didn't work. Fun for me, not so much the economy :(

I can remember when all paints were 99p, White Dwarf was 2 pounds (I think), 5 metal models in a blister cost you 4.50 and you could buy the entire Terminator metal set for the princely sum of 12 quid...

"Where and when was such a magical place?" I hear you say!

Well that would be England in the early to mid 1990's when I first started collecting and painting (badly).

In the US for sales tax it is just added on after the price. So if sales tax increases for instance, the additional sales tax item on your receipt goes up but the item price stays the same.

Is it common practice in the UK to have the taxes buried in the price of the item? If so why?

From a public choice view, it is because it is hidden. Everyone knows what the sales tax in their state is, and that is likely the reason why it doesn't change much (and DE trumpets their lack of a ST). If you tax the links in the chain instead of the act of selling itself you can bury more of the taxes, and people blame the sellers for high prices instead of the politicians who raised the tax. As evidence of that, take this thread Not that GW doesn't charge a lot already, or won't raise prices in addition to the VAT, but this is obviously a tax to make everything more expensive, and people are blaming GW for their stuff becoming more expensive as a result.

For a US example, look up some of the tariffs on things like sugar, and the excise taxes on components in your favorite products. The US fed isn't funded by personal income taxes like many people assume, but by far by tariffs and excise taxes on materials, mostly because these are invisible and don't get politicians hung. Gasoline is another good example, with about 2 dollars in tax for every gallon in some states (though that might have changed in the last two years or so since I last looked).

Tax increases you say? Sounds like a good opportunity for GW to sneak in some price hikes under the rader while everyone adjusts their prices to reflect the new VAT

asmith - yes it is common practice for value added tax to be incorporated into the price of all items in the UK.

This is because VAT is standardised as the UK is a relatively small place, but in the USA (I could be wrong here) each state has its own sales tax and so standardising it across all purchases is simply not possible.

Also in the UK prices are usually a very round neat number as it's already included, and you don't have to do the math like in the USA or Canada and add on whatever % the sales tax is there.

I believe adding tax onto the stated price of something is misleading and false advertising, and much prefer the UK system of knowing exactly how much you pay as it's included and advertised from the beginning.

evilsponge - yes that is exactly what GW and other companies will do, pass it onto the consumer and reap more profits.

This topic seems to have been played out, and people just can't seem to keep on topic and polite, per the forum rules.

Therefore, it is now closed!

IF there is some other newsworthy item connected with this event, I suppose it could be re-opened...

But for now, goodnight!