So I've seen 2 or 3 threads on the BL lately and wondering what would people nominate as the worst BL book ever? Or at least the worst BL book you ever read (or tried to read)?

The one by Barrington J Bailey.

On a cheerier note, currently ploughing my way through God King.

It's a bit good! To follow, either Emperor's Finest, or Prospero Burns. Can't decide which to read first!

Which one is that Mr M?

I think it's called Eye of Terror.

Was one of the first BL books produced (well, when it became BL. After the original titles were all removed from sale and the publishing wing was relaunched)

Hmm probably the worst one I ever made the mistake of reading was Warrior Brood by C. S. Goto.

Swiftly followed by Battle for the Abyss and A Thousand Sons.

All the C.S. Goto books?

Grief_Bringer wrote:Hmm probably the worst one I ever made the mistake of reading was Warrior Brood by C. S. Goto.

Swiftly followed by Battle for the Abyss and A Thousand Sons.

+1 on the Warrior Brood

Battle for the Abyss wasn't what I thought it would be, and I've got A Thousand Sons waiting to be read on one of my shelves, is it really that bad?

I actually enjoyed Abyss. Wasn't massively heresy related, but it was a simple story that allowed you to see that not all of the members of the traitor legions were bad.

*Gulp*, I thought Thousand Sons was ok. Worst HH book is Descent of Angels. Every time I read a HH book, it's my standard (At least this wasn't as bad as Descent of Angels). Truly cringe worthy dialogue.

AgeOfEgos wrote:*Gulp*, I thought Thousand Sons was ok. Worst HH book is Descent of Angels. Every time I read a HH book, it's my standard (At least this wasn't as bad as Descent of Angels). Truly cringe worthy dialogue.

I thought DoA was amongst one of my favourites What was so bad about it?

I really liked A Thousand Sons.

I also hate the Grey Knights Omnibus more than anything by CS Goto.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot about DoA.

That's the worst BL book.

Yeah Eye of Terror was pretty dreadful but Mechanicum caused me physical pain to the point I was scribbling notes in the margin (will anything happen this chapter? nope).

I mean I've heard of Mary Sues but never saw such a blatant one in a book that actual editors and publishers approved.

I quite liked "Eye of Terror"

Planetkill. Waste of money and calories to read it.

The dialogue, the stereotypical character elements, the pacing, the rushed ending, the cover, the price....

Valkyrie wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:*Gulp*, I thought Thousand Sons was ok. Worst HH book is Descent of Angels. Every time I read a HH book, it's my standard (At least this wasn't as bad as Descent of Angels). Truly cringe worthy dialogue.

I thought DoA was amongst one of my favourites What was so bad about it?

Any of the books by either C.S. Goto or Lucian Soulban.

I'll go to my grave saying that Ben Counter is worse than C.S. Goto.

I haven't read many...and probably because the last one I read was atrocious. I can't even remember the name of the book or author because I thought it was so bad. It was the first of the Word Bearer series... 'Dark Disciple' maybe?

I only like Daemonworld, the rest of Ben's stuff is rather generic or hyper-boring.

I quite liked Thousand Sons and Descent of Angels - I'd say that the SECOND DA book in the HH series - is it Fallen Angels? - is much much worse.

But the worst HH book has to be Battle for the Abyss.

And the worst of all? Yeah, maybe Warrior Brood. Oh, or Helsreach. The dialogue in that is laughable.

"I am Grimaldus, I'm full of RAGE. But RAGE is good. Or is it? This question fills me with RAGE! I have a nice side really, but nobody likes it. Oh, the RAAAAGGGEE!"

Why the hate for Battle For Abyss? I know it didn't advance the HH plot much (spoiler, Horus turns to chaos!) but it was a fine adventure story.

Redemption corps by rob sanders is one of the worst book i've ever read , and i've read over a broad spectrum it has a wandering plot line , its not cohesively written and the dialogue is naff
I guess i sound really pretentious

'claw

Monster Rain wrote:I'll go to my grave saying that Ben Counter is worse than C.S. Goto.

His short story Daemonblood is one of my favorite pieces from BL. It motivated me to pick up the GK omnibus. Ah well, I still like the short story.

There is only one Bl book I have ever put down (yet) because it was so bad.

Double Eagle. (I think thats the name)

Its all about boring air warfare. And dudes talking about planes. And a crippled chaos dude who flies his own plane.

Aw, bummer. I've always wanted to read that one.

Well, I did read that one when I was much younger. It wasn't actiony enough for me then.
I wonder if I go back if it'll be better.

I did enjoy Double Eagle. It is (understandably) very plane-heavy, so I suppose if you're not a big fan of aerial warfare it might not be your cup of tea. But, if you're like me and enjoy that sort of thing, it's a good read

For me, the worst one was Wolf's Honour. By a long shot.

Flight of the Eisenstein.

I couldn't even finish it it was that tedious.

I was about to mention an old Warhammer Fantasy book I had read, but then I just looked it up and saw it was the first of a trilogy.
I wish I knew that before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chromedog wrote:Flight of the Eisenstein.

I couldn't even finish it it was that tedious.

I actually liked that book. And it was at the same age that I disliked Double Eagle.

I also like Eisenstein but dropped the BA books pretty fast.

I read them, hoping they would get better.


Due to all the C.S. Goto hate on dakka, I really, REALLY want to read one of his books.

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:There is only one Bl book I have ever put down (yet) because it was so bad.

Double Eagle. (I think thats the name)

Its all about boring air warfare. And dudes talking about planes. And a crippled chaos dude who flies his own plane.

Manchu wrote:Aw, bummer. I've always wanted to read that one.

Double Eagle is pretty good. Basically I think its hard to convey the fast-pased combat of air warfare in book form. Things are always pitching and yawing and stuff. My advice is that if you do read it take notes: Character Overload!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The worst BL book I've read is probably Death World. I doubt its the worst BL book just the worst one I've read.

The infamous "Space Marine" by Ian Watson.

I thought that was a "classic?"

I love love love Ian Watson. In terms of literary quality, he produced the very pinnacle of BL's catalog, IMO. There has yet to be an equally talented writer in terms of sheer creativity working for them.

Monster Rain wrote:I'll go to my grave saying that Ben Counter is worse than C.S. Goto.

Agree. Daemonworld was the only interesting book he's written, but I could still smell the crayon. GK Omnibus is pure generic cheese. Abyss, Soul Drinkers, barf.

But Descent of Angels is still the one I like least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
otoh the Word Bearer books are pretty craptastic as well.... damn hard to choose.

Manchu wrote:I love love love Ian Watson. In terms of literary quality, he produced the very pinnacle of BL's catalog, IMO. There has yet to be an equally talented writer in terms of sheer creativity working for them.

So I take it you recommend Inquisition War?

The Vampire Genevieve omnibus. bs. Zero battling, she barely fights and pretty much just has sex with every guy she sees... and even the sex scenes have zero Passion. Waste of time.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Manchu wrote:I love love love Ian Watson. In terms of literary quality, he produced the very pinnacle of BL's catalog, IMO. There has yet to be an equally talented writer in terms of sheer creativity working for them.

So I take it you recommend Inquisition War?

A thousand times yes. It reads like no other BL books, however. Flip through if you find a copy in a bookstore before buying. I think it's the only 40k yarn that could stand alone as sci-fi (i.e., being a part of the 40k world is not its principal selling point).

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Manchu wrote:I love love love Ian Watson. In terms of literary quality, he produced the very pinnacle of BL's catalog, IMO. There has yet to be an equally talented writer in terms of sheer creativity working for them.

So I take it you recommend Inquisition War?

A thousand times yes. It reads like no other BL books, however. Flip through if you find a copy in a bookstore before buying. I think it's the only 40k yarn that could stand alone as sci-fi (i.e., being a part of the 40k world is not its principal selling point).

In fact I have the omnibus, its just under my pile of HH books. sigh, they're writing them faster than I can read them.

@KC: I look forward to hearing what you think. Read one of the short stories and write a review, if you get a chance.

Sure, so its more like an anthology then?

No, like most BL omnibuses (omnibi?), it contains three novels and two short stories.

Ian Watson is easily the best living British science fiction writer.

On top of that, he's also a really great guy.

Karon wrote:All the C.S. Goto books?

Aw man, I don't want to hear that... I actually paid money for the Blood Ravens Omnibus but have yet to read it.

Magestorm gets my vote, generally anything by Jonathan Green (was that his name) the Armageddon books were truely shocking, I mean a dreadnought that allows an Impy Guardsmen to craft a multilaser on his arm....clearly you didnt research your source material did you mate??

Another one....

Felix, Gotrek and The Contractural Obligation, aka Giantslayer. Just didn't do it for me at all, and it seemed pretty clear the author was bored of the characters. Thankfully, Nathan Long (I think!) picked up the reins for Orcslayer onwards, and its been tip top ever since!

Sample of Giantslayer?

Gotrek, Felix and Teclis in a boat. Teclis does something. Gotrek grumbles and mutters, Felix looks sheepish.

And that's a lot of the book.

I personally hated Inq. War by Ian Watson. But I agree that it could be random stand alone science fiction.

I also couldn't get thru the first book in the Nagash series. Just couldn't take it for some reason. Though that could simply have been because Weber/Flint/Ringo all released books around the time I started to try to read it and no one in black library holds a candle to those guys.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Why the hate for Battle For Abyss? I know it didn't advance the HH plot much (spoiler, Horus turns to chaos!) but it was a fine adventure story.

I thought it was a horrible novel, the only likable character or part was the Thousand Son. I found the story incredibly predictable; skirmish, skip through space, loyalists survive despite the odds... Rinse and repeat.
As I said, the story was predictable and underwhelming, the Word Bearers were the worst bad guys in 40K, they were almost as useless as Storm Troopers in SW's.
The ending was really underwhelming and the chief bad guy did nothing but screw up over and over again.
Then, as you said, it didn't advance the Horus Heresy plot much.
To me, it was definitely the worst HH book so far.

Monster Rain wrote:I'll go to my grave saying that Ben Counter is worse than C.S. Goto.

I've heard a lot of hate for both these writers although from what I've heard of his stories C.S. Goto is much worse, I was impressed with Ben Counters 3rd HH novel, Galaxy In Flames I think it was?

For me, the worst Black Library Novel I've read would have to be Battle for the Abyss. Possibly one of the Space Wolf ones too though.

We need a book section:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/335125.page#2254648

I dream of a Dakka with a subforum titled "Fine Literature" that just discusses Speez Mahrines and Comics!

Eldar Prophecy.... FuTARDED!

Battle for the Abyss and both of the DA HH books were all pretty terrible. Nemsis was not great either, but that is a whole other rant.

Mechanicum was not very good, but it was not the worst.

Double Eagle was pretty exciting I thought, and I even wrote a few pages of rules for air combat inspired by the book.

I'll second Redemption Corps as being awful but I have to put a series of books and a single book ahead of them both:

1. Sons of Dorn. Simply awful and not even captivating.
2. The entire Last Chancer series.

Just Dave wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Why the hate for Battle For Abyss? I know it didn't advance the HH plot much (spoiler, Horus turns to chaos!) but it was a fine adventure story.

I thought it was a horrible novel, the only likable character or part was the Thousand Son. I found the story incredibly predictable; skirmish, skip through space, loyalists survive despite the odds... Rinse and repeat.
As I said, the story was predictable and underwhelming, the Word Bearers were the worst bad guys in 40K, they were almost as useless as Storm Troopers in SW's.
The ending was really underwhelming and the chief bad guy did nothing but screw up over and over again.
Then, as you said, it didn't advance the Horus Heresy plot much.
To me, it was definitely the worst HH book so far.

Monster Rain wrote:I'll go to my grave saying that Ben Counter is worse than C.S. Goto.

I've heard a lot of hate for both these writers although from what I've heard of his stories C.S. Goto is much worse, I was impressed with Ben Counters 3rd HH novel, Galaxy In Flames I think it was?

For me, the worst Black Library Novel I've read would have to be Battle for the Abyss. Possibly one of the Space Wolf ones too though.

I must agree. Although I have many HH books to go Battle for the Abyss has been the worst one so far. The Ultramarine Captain is a stereotypical Ultramarine Captain. The Space Wolf Captain is an unbearably stereotypical Space Wolf. Mhotep is a stereotypical 1K but he's lucky that makes him awesome anyway. Skraal however was a pretty cool guy. It's all by the numbers except for the part where Cestus (I think his name was) goes to hell. It's not the worst book evar! or anything just found it to be the weakest so far in the series.

I found Mechanicum to be really good, I'm not sure why people hate it tbh...

The Dark Angel HH novels weren't good, but they're far from worse in the Black Library.

I really enjoyed Mechanicum actually. It was one of those novels that gave an excellent insight on an otherwise very untouched subject in the Adeptus Mechanicus. While I think there is little help for Battle for the Abyss I think were it was released messed it up even more. If it was the next book to be released following on the heels of First Heretic, it may have kept the timeline a little more contiguos and thus made it a little easier to stomach.

I liked Decent of Angels. The story of the Lions world before and after the Emperor gained control of it was very interesting. They had a lot of history and a particular way of doing things until Mr Emperor popped around. Then all hell breaks loose as they watch their world get eaten and changed, never to be the same again. Its a rather sad story in my opinion and you can see why Luthor go's the way he does. The first book where you really see what happens when the Empire of man takes over a found world.

Worst book for me? No idea. Too many in BL to count. Id go with most of the HH books though as they're just long winded and most of the characters are hard to remember and boring. I gave up on the HH series after this Angels book above.

+1 for Warrior Brood

Sons of Dorn seemed like a total rehash of Bill King's "Space Wolf."
I forgot about the first Nagash novel, I have never been so dissapointed it a book that I really, really wanted to read. Well, strike that, Goodkind really let me down a couple of times, but that's a different genre.

In defense of the Ian Watson books I really like them. And not just because of the constantly ejaculating bolters.

He was the first to write 40k novels and like Umburto Eco writing about the middle ages, he figures that anyone that distant from us in time is going to be insane by modern standards. So he writes insane characters doing insane things amist an atmosphere of despair and decay.

So yeah, an acquired taste.

Sane characters in 40k are a pitfall of mainstreaming. This is the big problem I had with Titanicus and Abnett more generally.

Eldar... Prophecy...

I don't care WHAT C.S. Goto writes anymore, whether it ends up being a steaming pile of crap or somehow it turns into the greatest thing ever, I officially loathe him and everything he does because of this one book...

Manchu wrote:Sane characters in 40k are a pitfall of mainstreaming. This is the big problem I had with Titanicus and Abnett more generally.

The climax of Titanicus involves the theocratic crisis of whether not to allow the creation myth of your religion to be co-opted and corrupted by the mainstream faith in the interest of not destroying one's nation. State or church what is more important? If this is mainstreaming then I welcome it. I find the central issue in most BL books is whether the Space Marines should "pwn n00bs" or totally "totally pwn n00bs."

I hated the 2nd and 3rd Last Chancers books.. the 1st one was alright, but the meat grinder of the last 2 just put me the hell off.

The main character was really unlikeable, and I just kept waiting for him to fail whatever Invul save he was pulling out his .. well.. nether regions.

Manchu wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Manchu wrote:I love love love Ian Watson. In terms of literary quality, he produced the very pinnacle of BL's catalog, IMO. There has yet to be an equally talented writer in terms of sheer creativity working for them.

So I take it you recommend Inquisition War?

A thousand times yes. It reads like no other BL books, however. Flip through if you find a copy in a bookstore before buying. I think it's the only 40k yarn that could stand alone as sci-fi (i.e., being a part of the 40k world is not its principal selling point).

The Inquisition War was the first BL book I read. It started out friggin' awesome, but by 1/3 through Chaos Child had lost all momentum and sense of direction, and just fizzled out.

I thought Dead Sky, Black Sun was pretty bad.

I don't think there's ever been one I've not been able to finish, but the one that I disliked most?

Probably the Soul Drinker series.

It's interesting, reading this thread, how people seem to fall into two categories based on the reasons they give. I'm pretty sure I've seen this in other BL threads on here as well.

1. People who describe Mechanicum, Eisenstein, Descent of Angels as 'boring', dislike Ian Watson's older stuff, and seem to prefer reading BL books with lots of action and battle scenes, rather than dialogue, mystery etc.

2. People who describe Battle for the Abyss, Ultramarines, Soul Drinker as 'boring', on account of it just being endless Space Marine fighting with predictable bad guys. They seem to prefer a book that opens up the background, regardless of how much action is in it.


It seems BL is catering for some hugely different tastes. I personally fall into the second section - I found Mechanicum, Eisenstien et al really interesting, as they show sections of the background that I've never seen before. I don't care if there's no battle scenes at all - that's not why I'm reading a BL book.

I have to admit Ian, I wouldn't say I'm in either category and that's genuine, not different for the sake of being different. Although I guess at a push, I could fall into the 2nd.

For me, much like your final sentence, it's not so much about how much battle there is in it, it's the depth of the 40K background - which I love. If there's no substance then there's no reason for me to like it (eg. Space Wolf/Ragnar novel), whether or not there's any fighting in it.
That's why I like the HH series so much due to the depth, quality and richness of the background they dive into.
For me, First Heretic had a great balance of dialogue and action.

There is a third category Ian. One that understands that BL aren't true novels in the sense of most of the sci-fi genre and read them like some people read trashy romance novels

Which is why my favorite ones are the ones actually written well enough to qualify as true books (i.e. they'd probably get published without the support of BL with a slight modification to the back of the book intro).

Hulksmash wrote:There is a third category Ian. One that understands that BL aren't true novels in the sense of most of the sci-fi genre and read them like some people read trashy romance novels

Which is why my favorite ones are the ones actually written well enough to qualify as true books (i.e. they'd probably get published without the support of BL with a slight modification to the back of the book intro).

Oh, I absolutely agree with this. I realise that the GOOD ones are the ones that read like actual novels - with character development, psychology and interesting motives. I find this these books to fall into the second section more than the first, mainly because it's practically impossible to put decent character development into a novel about Space Marines (honourable exception goes to Brothers of the Snake). But I guess, on the other hand, there's a few complaints about DoA and Mechanicum that, while they add to the world, they don't necessarily have the most engaging characters...

Havent read a whole lot of BL books, mainly the HH ones but the first DA novel was truely appalling in my opinion.

I don't know that many BL books outside of Ian Watson that wouldn't fit into Hulksmash's "trash romance." I recently read Steve Lyons's Dead Men Walking, which might just barely qualify if so much of its theme didn't rely on the protagonists and antagonists being DKoK and Necrons respectively. (I started a review & discussion thread here.)

@KC: By mainstreaming, I was talking more about the merely human characters in Titanicus. The same thing shows up in Dead Men Walking. These civilian characters are supposed to be the "Luke Skywalkers" of BL (i.e., the substitute for the reader) and I think they're a touch too removed from the sensibilities of their own world in an effort to be more relatable to ours.

Well if you re-wrote the back of Storm of Iron or First Heretic or the Eisenhorn series that marketed them in a non-40k but generic sci-fi fashion they would pass muster.

Ian Watsons stuff to me was appalling. Yes it's different than standard BL stuff but it's just as in it's own way. Personal opinion on that though

Blood ravens DOW omnibus - it was actually painful to read and I quit after about 50-100 pages - stayed far away from Mr. Goto ever since. ....

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Why the hate for Battle For Abyss? I know it didn't advance the HH plot much (spoiler, Horus turns to chaos!) but it was a fine adventure story.

I thought it was a horrible novel, the only likable character or part was the Thousand Son. I found the story incredibly predictable; skirmish, skip through space, loyalists survive despite the odds... Rinse and repeat.
As I said, the story was predictable and underwhelming, the Word Bearers were the worst bad guys in 40K, they were almost as useless as Storm Troopers in SW's.
The ending was really underwhelming and the chief bad guy did nothing but screw up over and over again.
Then, as you said, it didn't advance the Horus Heresy plot much.
To me, it was definitely the worst HH book so far.

Monster Rain wrote:I'll go to my grave saying that Ben Counter is worse than C.S. Goto.

I've heard a lot of hate for both these writers although from what I've heard of his stories C.S. Goto is much worse, I was impressed with Ben Counters 3rd HH novel, Galaxy In Flames I think it was?

For me, the worst Black Library Novel I've read would have to be Battle for the Abyss. Possibly one of the Space Wolf ones too though.

I must agree. Although I have many HH books to go Battle for the Abyss has been the worst one so far. The Ultramarine Captain is a stereotypical Ultramarine Captain. The Space Wolf Captain is an unbearably stereotypical Space Wolf. Mhotep is a stereotypical 1K but he's lucky that makes him awesome anyway. Skraal however was a pretty cool guy. It's all by the numbers except for the part where Cestus (I think his name was) goes to hell. It's not the worst book evar! or anything just found it to be the weakest so far in the series.

Wait your complaints with the book are that the Ultramarine acts like, well an Ultramarine and the Space Wolf acts like, shock, a Space Wolf? I don't really get your argument.

For me the worst book in the series is the 2nd one, I think. Whichever one describes Horus' fall to Chaos. The entire Heresy gets summed up in about 15 pages where essentially Horus is tricked. Lame.

I'll mention C.S Goto's eldar book, but I was really really bored by the two Dark Angel Horus Heresy books. I finished the first book and thought what was the point of that? Then made the mistake of thinking the follow-up could only get better. It didn't.

Manchu wrote:I don't know that many BL books outside of Ian Watson that wouldn't fit into Hulksmash's "trash romance." I recently read Steve Lyons's Dead Men Walking, which might just barely qualify if so much of its theme didn't rely on the protagonists and antagonists being DKoK and Necrons respectively. (I started a review & discussion thread here.)

@KC: By mainstreaming, I was talking more about the merely human characters in Titanicus. The same thing shows up in Dead Men Walking. These civilian characters are supposed to be the "Luke Skywalkers" of BL (i.e., the substitute for the reader) and I think they're a touch too removed from the sensibilities of their own world in an effort to be more relatable to ours.

I see. Abnett like a lot of writers relies on the "common-man" and/or "eyes of the audience" characters. I don't mind them because they can keep the craziness of a world like 40k in perspective. It's been a while but I don't recall any unbearable skywalker-like guys in Titanicus. I do remember this one guy who made toy-titans that was kinda weird. I didn't mind the guy but it just seems like if every scene he was in was edited out then it really would have no effect on anything in the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ArbitorIan wrote:It's interesting, reading this thread, how people seem to fall into two categories based on the reasons they give. I'm pretty sure I've seen this in other BL threads on here as well.

1. People who describe Mechanicum, Eisenstein, Descent of Angels as 'boring', dislike Ian Watson's older stuff, and seem to prefer reading BL books with lots of action and battle scenes, rather than dialogue, mystery etc.

2. People who describe Battle for the Abyss, Ultramarines, Soul Drinker as 'boring', on account of it just being endless Space Marine fighting with predictable bad guys. They seem to prefer a book that opens up the background, regardless of how much action is in it.


It seems BL is catering for some hugely different tastes. I personally fall into the second section - I found Mechanicum, Eisenstien et al really interesting, as they show sections of the background that I've never seen before. I don't care if there's no battle scenes at all - that's not why I'm reading a BL book.

I don't know. My favorite is Gaunts Ghosts and that would fall under catagory 1. But I also liked Descent of Angels and Flight of The Eisenstein. I think if its good and succeeds in what it sets out to do then its good regardless of "Type". Of course the best ones do it all!

@KC: Remember the dude and his wife who got separated? The wife was a PDF reservist and the guy worked in a warehouse or something. That's who I mean. I really liked the various Princepi, however. I think the book would have done far better to focus on them and other AdMech personalities.

Yeah, iirc she ends up leading an ad-hoc squad behind enemy lines. I didn't mind her arc. I think there was a scene were they see the Titan's fight from a footsoldiers pov and its like the world exploding.

For me I'd have to say my least favorite novel from Black Library is Fulgrim. Thats the only one that I've ha to struggle through. There are some that are pretty close to it, some of the last chancer novels come to mind, but it surpasses them. I can't even place my finger on why i dislike it honestly.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:So I've seen 2 or 3 threads on the BL lately and wondering what would people nominate as the worst BL book ever? Or at least the worst BL book you ever read (or tried to read)?

Oh, no! ANother Goto thread

battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Due to all the C.S. Goto hate on dakka, I really, REALLY want to read one of his books.

I recommend "Dawn of War: Tempest", it's the worst by Goto. 180 pages of torturing a female Eldar farseer, and Harlequins always ending in "piles of mutilated bodies" (that's a quote!)
Although I have to admit that I couldn't read more than a third of Eldar Prophecy, so it might be even worse.

On the plus side, I'm currently reading Path of the Warrior by Mr. Thorpe and it's surprisingly okay so far. At first, I thought it was going to be 400 pages describnig each character's hairstyle and outfit but it's starting to take off.

Did not like Dark Sky, Black Sun at -all-. It got the whole EoT thing very well but it just hurt my head.

C.S Goto's stuff.....meh. I doubt I could get anything accepted by BL, so I shant throw too many stones.

Liked all the different HH books. I think Abyss was the weakest, but that's just imho.

And really, trying to reply to a question that says "ever" in it, presumes that there will be no more BL books. I'm sure, out in the depths of the world, in the darkest sub-basement of an abandoned sanitarium where inhuman experiments were performed, C.S. Goto is writing more books -just- to piss a lot of you off

My first book was eldar prophesy... oh god my poor childhood self. i finished it and picked up another book: thank god it was gotrek and felix or my warhammer life may have stopped there!

Rymafyr wrote:I haven't read many...and probably because the last one I read was atrocious. I can't even remember the name of the book or author because I thought it was so bad. It was the first of the Word Bearer series... 'Dark Disciple' maybe?

Dark Apostle. I thought it was good except for one thing. Unfortunately, that one thing is the core of the story: the god-damn tower. It's practically a Mary Sue, always stealing the spotlight and single-handedly destroying all the better parts of the novel until there's nothing left except it and a handful of Word Bearers.

While I haven't read the book, one quote from Grey Knights has put me off:

'Sisters, ready! Lachryma and the Knights will lead. Steel your souls, for the Enemy will try to take you first.' Ludmilla turned to Alaric. 'I know the Grey Knights have never had a brother lose their mind to Chaos. But the Adepta Sororitas have lost Sisters to the Enemy before. It is rare, and no one will admit to it, but...'
'It is bad enough that Ghargatuloth has used you,' said Alaric. 'I would not let any of you live on with your minds violated.'

You can almost taste the paternalism. It's like something written by Karen Traviss.

It's a sad commentary when you describe a book as "surprisingly okay," Manchu.

The space wolves book by lee lightner . I can't believe it took two people to write a such s steaming pile of stool. It's the Starship Troopers 2: Hero of the Federation of the Black Library.

albinoork wrote:The space wolves book by lee lightner . I can't believe it took two people to write a such s steaming pile of stool. It's the Starship Troopers 2: Hero of the Federation of the Black Library.

Agreed.I think this one was the worst because there was nothing good about it. Even some novels which I disliked had some interesting background material, or some cool ideas, or some neat battle scene. This one was just a waste of paper.

Ian Watson is very difficult for me to judge objectively, because what he wrote way back THEN is so different from what is accepted about the 40K universe now. That shouldn't make it bad (as he couldn't possibly tell what direction the universe would take), but it makes it difficult for me to evaluate as a book.

With regards to the HH, Prospero Burns is very, very good... although the title has little obvious to do with the narrative until the last two chapters.

The First Heretic is the best of the series so far, AFAIC.

Battle for the Abyss is the most shoddily written in my opinion, but the void-battle scenes are challenging subject matter, and they're some of the best parts in my opinion. I, like others, think the characters were pretty trite. The first daemonic possession is one of my favourite passages in any Black Library novel so it balances out fairly well!

Redemption Corps.

Then again I have intentionally avoided anything by C.S. Goto so......

Worst ive read was palace of the plauge king. And Enforcer is knid of slow.

I have read a lot of other good ones but the king in my mind by a million miles is blackhearts. I loved that book. And the one gaunts ghosts novel ive read (Necropolis) was very good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gotrex and Felix are cool as well.

Still need to finish Redemption Corps some day, but it grew very stale very fast, so chances of me finishing it are slim to nil. Same with Dark Apostle, Eye of Terror, Titanicus, Gunheads and Dawn of War 2. *deep sigh*

All cs goto books in general, why he is on the pay roll is beyond me, descent of angels was just beyond description for how bad a book could be.
Sons of dorn, as much as I wanted to like it, being a Imperial fist player and all, was just bad
Battle for the abyss, most powerful vessel ever created and you let it be destroyed by a squad of marines- serious plot holes everywhere, and the characters were completely lacking in anything close to common sense

Hated Battle for the Abyssmal. Also hated Fire Warrior.

Loved Mechanicum.

Thought the DA books in the HH worked better as a pair and maybe should have been released back to back, or as a stand-alone trilogy with the wrap-up volume.

We all like popcorn. Some like sweet, others salty.

Goto has been let go though right? Right!?

BrookM wrote:Still need to finish Redemption Corps some day, but it grew very stale very fast, so chances of me finishing it are slim to nil. Same with Dark Apostle, Eye of Terror, Titanicus, Gunheads and Dawn of War 2. *deep sigh*

See, I REALLY liked Gunheads... it's allot of fun, and at least Steve Parker managed to get the charecter of the Commissars good! Well, better than Rebel Winter, I mean. Has anyone read Rebel Winter? Commissar Karif is perhaps the "nicest" Commissar ever!

The Fire Warrior tie-in Tau do not work that way.

But the one I loathed the most was 'Eye of Terror' by Barrington J Bailey. what a steaming pile of drek that was.

Hunt for Voldorius courtesy of Mr Andy Hoare. I've read most of the 40K novels & maybe a third of the fantasy & Hunt has been the ONLY book that I felt like giving up on after the first couple of chapters.

The start was so cliched as if it had been copied from various other novels / typical actions films & only improved upto 'dull' by the end of the finale.

The bit where the White Scar commander, a chapter who hold honor as a virtue, is losing one on one combat with the Alpha Legion champion & allows an another marine to shoot the Alpha champion in the head with a bolt gun, before then finishing him off in the same manner ! So much for martial honor

I just finished "Courage and Honour". A He-Man novel without any inspiration or new idea, just "Space Marine X is sooo Godlike, shots a Fire Warrior left and slices a Crisis Suit in half on the right, yeah, and did I mention that Space Marines are sooo Godlike!" Even Jean Claude Van Damme movies are more subtle for Christ's sake. Tau Antigrav tanks fight for a bridge over a river! One Space Marine eats a Tau brain to get the manual for a Tau vehicle! And I thought the choking of an Eldar Avatar in Fulgrim was a single mishap. McNeill gets worse and worse. If the Tau were worshipping Slaanesh and the Ethereal a fat drooling child molester, I would have thought, Goto is back!

P.S.: I had to read the book because of Tau/Kroot references from that book in the last "Tau are TH3 3VULZZ" thread.

FordPrefect wrote:The bit where the White Scar commander, a chapter who hold honor as a virtue, is losing one on one combat with the Alpha Legion champion & allows an another marine to shoot the Alpha champion in the head with a bolt gun, before then finishing him off in the same manner ! So much for martial honor

There are more important things than honour. If a commander is willing to die and have a traitor escape for the sake of honour, he is not fit to lead.

Fists of the emperor wrote:All cs goto books in general, why he is on the pay roll is beyond me, descent of angels was just beyond description for how bad a book could be.
Sons of dorn, as much as I wanted to like it, being a Imperial fist player and all, was just bad
Battle for the abyss, most powerful vessel ever created and you let it be destroyed by a squad of marines- serious plot holes everywhere, and the characters were completely lacking in anything close to common sense

damn ninjad.... also multilasers........

I'm really suprised i haven't seen James Swallow's name dragged through the mud here.
That Blood angel trilogy was just awful.
Terrible Dialogue, even worse plot. It was just pure garbage.

Daggermaw- I just read the first two Blood Angel books over a period of 4 days and quite enjoyed them... or maybe my brain was melted in the process.

Worst BL book i've ever finished has to be Murder in Marienburg, absolutely dire and the author had some weird fixation on the idea of "tossing halflings"...

Worst BL book though has to go to the first Blood Raven book by the notorious CS Goto, the only GW book i've started reading and given up on. 50 pages in and that was it.

I've got Ian Watsons Inquisitor lined up as my next book to read so my opinion may change shortly

I am reading Brunner. I like it, but I have a feeling someone here must hate it.

I have yet to finish Redemption Corps.. it really is that bad.

The only reason i finished the first DoW book, by Goto, was because i was in Iraq, and literally had nothing better to do with no mission running.

Ive also not been able to finish Blood for the Blood God, it just cannot hold my interest.

some of my faves, are Brothers of the Snake, Double Eagle, and Gunheads... if you like ww2 history, the Battle of Britain in particular, you'll like double eagle (as this is basically all the story is, only in the 41st millenium.

Kroothawk wrote:And I thought the choking of an Eldar Avatar in Fulgrim was a single mishap. McNeill gets worse and worse .

It was actually a Wraithlord that Fulgrim dismantled with his bare hands. Still OTT, but nothing near Avatar-choking level.

For HH specifically it is, for me, a tie between Descent of Angels and Battle for the Abyss. For both of these novels I would skip over entire pages on my first read-through, desperately searching for the point where the book 'got good', and finding the last page before that point was reached.

For recent BL releases, Hunt for Voldorious and Helsreach were both horrible. I enjoyed Rynn's world quite a bit, though, so I guess I'm glad they got the chapter's of legend or whatever it's called series going.

For entire series, the Blood Angels stuff sucked entirely.

But the all-time-worst has got to be Warrior Brood. That it was on sale in Wal-mart should have tipped me off...

@Sourclams

He did burn his hands smashing open the head of an Avatar though. Wraithlord was the first fight. Avatar was the follow-up

sourclams wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:And I thought the choking of an Eldar Avatar in Fulgrim was a single mishap. McNeill gets worse and worse .

It was actually a Wraithlord that Fulgrim dismantled with his bare hands. Still OTT, but nothing near Avatar-choking level.

For HH specifically it is, for me, a tie between Descent of Angels and Battle for the Abyss. For both of these novels I would skip over entire pages on my first read-through, desperately searching for the point where the book 'got good', and finding the last page before that point was reached.

For recent BL releases, Hunt for Voldorious and Helsreach were both horrible. I enjoyed Rynn's world quite a bit, though, so I guess I'm glad they got the chapter's of legend or whatever it's called series going.

For entire series, the Blood Angels stuff sucked entirely.

But the all-time-worst has got to be Warrior Brood. That it was on sale in Wal-mart should have tipped me off...

Nah it was an Avatar....but I can look past that, he's a Primarch.

re: Warrior Brood...I searched on Amazon for it. The reviews are worth a laugh;

http://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Brood-Warhammer-40-000/dp/1844162346


A highlight;

If you have the option of reading a novel writen by C.S. Goto or punching yourself in the face I recommend you go with the latter.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:And I thought the choking of an Eldar Avatar in Fulgrim was a single mishap. McNeill gets worse and worse .

It was actually a Wraithlord that Fulgrim dismantled with his bare hands. Still OTT, but nothing near Avatar-choking level.

For HH specifically it is, for me, a tie between Descent of Angels and Battle for the Abyss. For both of these novels I would skip over entire pages on my first read-through, desperately searching for the point where the book 'got good', and finding the last page before that point was reached.

For recent BL releases, Hunt for Voldorious and Helsreach were both horrible. I enjoyed Rynn's world quite a bit, though, so I guess I'm glad they got the chapter's of legend or whatever it's called series going.

For entire series, the Blood Angels stuff sucked entirely.

But the all-time-worst has got to be Warrior Brood. That it was on sale in Wal-mart should have tipped me off...

Nah it was an Avatar....but I can look past that, he's a Primarch.

re: Warrior Brood...I searched on Amazon for it. The reviews are worth a laugh;

http://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Brood-Warhammer-40-000/dp/1844162346


A highlight;

If you have the option of reading a novel writen by C.S. Goto or punching yourself in the face I recommend you go with the latter.

So many 5 star ratings. I HAVE to read it now

Of the ones that I've read... Hunt for Voldorius is the worst.

I obtained the book a month before its official release and I'm still not finished with it. I'm struggling to get through it because the writing just isn't that good. I feel like I'm reading a high schoolers book report on Hunt for Voldorius rather than the actual novel.

That entire series is pretty condescending in format. How much larger can the print get to bump up to $12? Don't tell me the maps justify that nonsense.

Well I have one to add. I was reading Sabbat Worlds and then came across the short story: "The Headstone and Hammerstone Kings". Horrible! Couldn't even tell you what its about or what happened. Also contains a non-ending that better not be a cliffhanger for continuation of this story. It get my vote for worst BL story.

I have only read a few BL books, mainly Abnett books ( Gaunt's Ghosts, Eisenhorn and Ravenor), but also Rynn's World by Steve Parker, and the only book I did not like was one of the Soul Drinkers books, Chapter War, by Ben Counter. The plot was tedious, the battle parts not that well writen, and the characters were not very good; I stopped reading the book after about 80 or so pages. One of the worst books I have ever read, luckily I had just checked it out of the library and did not buy that piece of trash.

liam0404 wrote:I actually enjoyed Abyss. Wasn't massively heresy related, but it was a simple story that allowed you to see that not all of the members of the traitor legions were bad.

I agree I thought it was a good space marine book but an atrocious Horus Heresy book. I vote the worst ever as Eldar Prophecy. I am still proud that I had the intestinal fortitude to actually finish that book (and I only cried four times).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AgeOfEgos wrote:The dialogue, the stereotypical character elements, the pacing, the rushed ending, the cover, the price....

You do know it is just pulp fiction right?

spot goes to school - nothing!!! not even a grot

Ben Counter can't write worth a damn.

Dull, dull, dull, dull.....

Kroothawk wrote:One Space Marine eats a Tau brain to get the manual for a Tau vehicle!

I don't know what's worse: The fact that this made it into a novel, or the fact that this is an real ability that Space Marines have according to GW fluff.

I know if I would research the background of Space Marines in order to write a book about them, and come across the GW listing of implants and see that one of them gives them the ability to gain the memories of enemies by eating their tissue, I would roll my eyes about how stupid this is and then put it in the book just to make a point.

I hate how Lucian Soulban turned Necromunda into a generic cyberpunk setting with skyscrapers, bike chases and mega corporation spies.

Grimblades - Nick Kyme

Couldn't even read through the entire book. Cliche/boring plot. Dull characters etc

I haven't read many of the titles talked about on here, mainly because I've avoided them and as such never picked up any C.S. Goto books because every single person I know whose ever read them said exactly the same thing (they are bad), but a few books have rather irked me. Brothers of the Snake was a well written piece of fiction, but utter garbage in respect to 40k fluff. Space Marines are not in the chain of command of the Imperial Guard and can't just waltz in and bark orders and have officers arrested, and a tactical squad isn't going to kill *thousands* of Dark Eldar, and they certainly aren't going to send just one Space Marine after an unknown number of Dark Eldar raiders on an Imperial world.

Likewise Dark Creed was decently written fiction but pretty bad fanwank where the author makes it out that the tens of *Billions* of trained,experienced, heavily fortified, prepared and well equipped Imperial Guard troops were obviously no match for 6,000 Space Marines. Really? Each Word bearer is worth several *million* entrenched normal troops? Total Gak.

Redemtion Corps

It has some good plot ideas and some good settings but it all seemed very mushed together

Grief_Bringer wrote:Hmm probably the worst one I ever made the mistake of reading was Warrior Brood by C. S. Goto.

Swiftly followed by Battle for the Abyss and A Thousand Sons.

I really enjoyed A Thousand Sons. I am biased though as I'm a big SW and TS fan so take my critique with a grain of salt.

I've only really read the HH books besides the Eisenhorn Omnibus. I really didn't like Tales of Heresy that much and I really hated Descent of Angels, although Fallen Angels was much better.

d-usa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:One Space Marine eats a Tau brain to get the manual for a Tau vehicle!

I don't know what's worse: The fact that this made it into a novel, or the fact that this is an real ability that Space Marines have according to GW fluff.

I know if I would research the background of Space Marines in order to write a book about them, and come across the GW listing of implants and see that one of them gives them the ability to gain the memories of enemies by eating their tissue, I would roll my eyes about how stupid this is and then put it in the book just to make a point.

What? Is that in book? That's pretty bad. The SM implant is just supposed to give you some instictive knowledge of the enviroment. i.e. like eating a local animal might give some insight on which plants to avoid not a full-blown user's manual. That writer seems to have confused a Space Marine with a Lictor.

I have been an avid Dark Angels player for about 20 years but the two qorst books I have read from the B/L are the Horus Heresy Dark Angels novels. Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. They are both rediculously weak, It just seems that there was no impetous in the stories even though it could have been made into an exceptional part of the HH series. I did struggle abit with the Sould drinkers omnibus, so wanted to enjoy the three books, but come on......giant arachnid space marine captain trying to do the emperors work.......nah!

Great thread guys, I'm finding it very helpful.

I'm weighing my options for my next BL purchase and I'll be sure to avoid some of the books listed here.


I've only really read Dan Abbnet books, all of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels incl Blood Pact, and the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies.

Those have all been pretty good for what they are.

The only one I didn't care much for was the second GG novel. I forget the name, but it just got dull after the 3rd chapter and the narrative structure was lacking, especially when compared to First and Only.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

d-usa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:One Space Marine eats a Tau brain to get the manual for a Tau vehicle!

I don't know what's worse: The fact that this made it into a novel, or the fact that this is an real ability that Space Marines have according to GW fluff.

I know if I would research the background of Space Marines in order to write a book about them, and come across the GW listing of implants and see that one of them gives them the ability to gain the memories of enemies by eating their tissue, I would roll my eyes about how stupid this is and then put it in the book just to make a point.

What? Is that in book? That's pretty bad. The SM implant is just supposed to give you some instictive knowledge of the enviroment. i.e. like eating a local animal might give some insight on which plants to avoid not a full-blown user's manual. That writer seems to have confused a Space Marine with a Lictor.

It's in two books - it's also in Space Marine by Ian Watson, almost the exact same scenario (but with a titan instead of some fishy tank).

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

d-usa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:One Space Marine eats a Tau brain to get the manual for a Tau vehicle!

I don't know what's worse: The fact that this made it into a novel, or the fact that this is an real ability that Space Marines have according to GW fluff.

I know if I would research the background of Space Marines in order to write a book about them, and come across the GW listing of implants and see that one of them gives them the ability to gain the memories of enemies by eating their tissue, I would roll my eyes about how stupid this is and then put it in the book just to make a point.

What? Is that in book? That's pretty bad. The SM implant is just supposed to give you some instictive knowledge of the enviroment. i.e. like eating a local animal might give some insight on which plants to avoid not a full-blown user's manual. That writer seems to have confused a Space Marine with a Lictor.

Courtesy of Matt Ward and the SM Codex:

Omophagea - Space Marines can gain part of a person or creature's memory by eating its flesh. This special organ is implanted between the thoracic vertebrae and the stomach wall. It works by absorbing genetic material from the meal itself.

Ulver wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

d-usa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:One Space Marine eats a Tau brain to get the manual for a Tau vehicle!

I don't know what's worse: The fact that this made it into a novel, or the fact that this is an real ability that Space Marines have according to GW fluff.

I know if I would research the background of Space Marines in order to write a book about them, and come across the GW listing of implants and see that one of them gives them the ability to gain the memories of enemies by eating their tissue, I would roll my eyes about how stupid this is and then put it in the book just to make a point.

What? Is that in book? That's pretty bad. The SM implant is just supposed to give you some instictive knowledge of the enviroment. i.e. like eating a local animal might give some insight on which plants to avoid not a full-blown user's manual. That writer seems to have confused a Space Marine with a Lictor.

It's in two books - it's also in Space Marine by Ian Watson, almost the exact same scenario (but with a titan instead of some fishy tank).

Really? Well then I guess it does work that way. Suck it Lictor.

Welp, if this thread tells us anything it's that unless it's C.S. Goto, keep an open mind and give a read for yourself. If it's Goto, take the uppercut instead.

Pinpointing the worst BL novel is a little hard for me. The first book of the Inquisition War trilogy was good, the second got meh, and then I threw my copy of Chaos Child in the trash can as soon as I finished it. And that's the only BL book I've done that with. So I'd say it pissed me off the most at least.

James Swallow's BA books were terrible.

I didn't like Ravenor at all. Haven't bothered to try Ravenor Returns.

Soul drinkers was aweful, but I have to say I had a roomate who wasn't into 40k, didn't even know what it was, and then picked up the Soul Drinkers books and was blown away.

It'd be interesting to get an 'outsiders' view of how BL books stack up to each other. I wonder how many books they could actually finish.

d-usa wrote:Courtesy of Matt Ward and the SM Codex:

Omophagea - Space Marines can gain part of a person or creature's memory by eating its flesh. This special organ is implanted between the thoracic vertebrae and the stomach wall. It works by absorbing genetic material from the meal itself.

This is ridiculous on so many levels, starting with tank driving manuals not being encrypted in the genes.
Fluff like this is the reason why I avoid all things Space Marine related.

I'm going to say Redemption Corps as the worst I've read. I hated the characters, the plot just sort of wandered off in no real direction, and the way the author depicted the Sisters of Battle was absolutely dreadful.

Kroothawk wrote:

d-usa wrote:Courtesy of Matt Ward and the SM Codex:

Omophagea - Space Marines can gain part of a person or creature's memory by eating its flesh. This special organ is implanted between the thoracic vertebrae and the stomach wall. It works by absorbing genetic material from the meal itself.

This is ridiculous on so many levels, starting with tank driving manuals not being encrypted in the genes.
Fluff like this is the reason why I avoid all things Space Marine related.

I assume the idea came from the various stories of warriors of primitive cultures eating the hearts of prey or enemies to gain it's strength, but with a sci-fi veneer applied. In general, it seems like this would be best explained as 'eating an enemy may provide some insights as the organ both renders the material harmless to the Space Marine and may help prime the Space Marine's system for unusual environments." I.E. a Space marine eats a bit of a critter from a world with some nasty poisons in the atmosphere, the organ starts making the Space Marine more resistant to said poisons.

Of course, this is just my concept and not canon.

Kroothawk wrote:

d-usa wrote:Courtesy of Matt Ward and the SM Codex:

Omophagea - Space Marines can gain part of a person or creature's memory by eating its flesh. This special organ is implanted between the thoracic vertebrae and the stomach wall. It works by absorbing genetic material from the meal itself.

This is ridiculous on so many levels, starting with tank driving manuals not being encrypted in the genes.
Fluff like this is the reason why I avoid all things Space Marine related.

I totally agree on it being ridiculous. But if that is the fluff GW provides to the BL authors, then I am not all that surprised as some of the weird stuff that they write...

Kroothawk wrote:

d-usa wrote:Courtesy of Matt Ward and the SM Codex:

Omophagea - Space Marines can gain part of a person or creature's memory by eating its flesh. This special organ is implanted between the thoracic vertebrae and the stomach wall. It works by absorbing genetic material from the meal itself.

This is ridiculous on so many levels, starting with tank driving manuals not being encrypted in the genes.
Fluff like this is the reason why I avoid all things Space Marine related.

BL is not for you then.

*Sadface*

Many of the titles just read through are those that I have to entertain me if the power goes out when Tropical Cyclone Yasi hits tonight...

Bugger just got upgraded to a Category 5... for those who are not Aussie, think Hurricane Katrina (since it received crazy huge media coverage when it hit Florida)

AvatarForm wrote:*Sadface*

Many of the titles just read through are those that I have to entertain me if the power goes out when Tropical Cyclone Yasi hits tonight...

Bugger just got upgraded to a Category 5... for those who are not Aussie, think Hurricane Katrina (since it received crazy huge media coverage when it hit Florida)

I think Katrina was more of a big deal when it hit New Orleans, but I can't blame people for not knowing US Geography.

We're preparing for ice storms across a big chunk of North America tonight, in fact.

BrookM wrote:BL is not for you then.

Why? Gotek and Felix novels are great!
And Path of the Warrior fields not a single Space marine IIRC. And Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Caine are quite safe as well.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Yeah Eye of Terror was pretty dreadful but Mechanicum caused me physical pain to the point I was scribbling notes in the margin (will anything happen this chapter? nope).

I mean I've heard of Mary Sues but never saw such a blatant one in a book that actual editors and publishers approved.

Mechanicum was a great book. I didn't think it was that slow and gave us an insight into the old Mars. So far as I know they are no other books on this. (I'm probably wrong though).

Kroothawk wrote:

d-usa wrote:Courtesy of Matt Ward and the SM Codex:

Omophagea - Space Marines can gain part of a person or creature's memory by eating its flesh. This special organ is implanted between the thoracic vertebrae and the stomach wall. It works by absorbing genetic material from the meal itself.

This is ridiculous on so many levels, starting with tank driving manuals not being encrypted in the genes.
Fluff like this is the reason why I avoid all things Space Marine related.

You mean the shoulder pads that reach to the elbow and block all sight left and right didn't give it away? Space Marines are daft, end of. Most of the fluff is daft, but that's why it's entertaining; if you want realistic try 'Physics for You' or something similar.

Mr Mystery wrote:I think it's called Eye of Terror.

Was one of the first BL books produced (well, when it became BL. After the original titles were all removed from sale and the publishing wing was relaunched)

I have had the misfortune of picking this up the other day.. Was at the used bookstore, and saw a title I didn't recognize.

Well... it is providing serious amusement at least..

Lets see.. rare psyker has insights into the Eye of Terror to the point where the Inquisition authorizes a special Null Ship to go into the Eye with a team of precogs and clairvoyants.. a squad of marines, and dual navigators. Once they get there.. it is too 'static-y" to get a read of space around them, so... they shut off the dampers for the Psykers to "get a good look".

Needless to say, that spelled doom for the ship.

End of Chapter 1.

Then.. we are treated to the cliche..

A rogue trader walks into a bar.. and finds an Eldar Robot called a Wraithguard lounging against the bar.. (and yes, the word was lounging)..

I am not sure I am gonna finish this.. so far the crimes against what nominally consist of 40k canon is pretty bad.

The Emperor decides to wake up all of a sudden and challenge the Chaos Gods, the Tyranid Hive Mind, Gork, Mork, and Mindy, and all the Tau Ethereals to an arm wrestling contest for control of the Imperium of Man.

There...I just wrote the best Black Library novel premise of all time.

WarOne wrote:The Emperor decides to wake up all of a sudden and challenge the Chaos Gods, the Tyranid Hive Mind, Gork, Mork, and Mindy, and all the Tau Ethereals to an arm wrestling contest for control of the Imperium of Man.

There...I just wrote the best Black Library novel premise of all time.

I would read it

Conquest of Armageddon, by Jonathan Green.

A Black Templar that can spit Acid (no really!). Two Space Marine Kill teams bump into each other in the middle of the deepest darkest jungle (how rare are these guys?). A Relictor SM Captain gets killed and the BT Chaplain is happy well they are on the same side though they end up killing each other. A Dreadnought falls into river after falling off a cliff. Gets washed down stream and washed up on a beach "Goes Bersy Quack and kills everything". The Emperors Champion gets kidnapped or Orc-Knapped by an Ork Warlord after falling over the same waterfall. A group of IG run around with a Kroot guide trying to get a Bio Weapon. Angron tries to come back and the World Eaters end up in some crazy three-some battle in the middle of the jungle in Armageddon with 2 space Marine kill teams and a Band of Feral Orks. Oh don't get me started on the Cyber Orks either...

This book confused the hell out of me as it is written from two different kill teams perspective at the start, before changing to a single kill team conventional narrative...

The less said about "Squiggoth" the better, seriously "ORKASAURUS" is a word I never want to see again...

umm.. evidently one of the Marine super organs turns their spittle into acid (which does not harm their stomachs), but can be an emergency weapon..

Fairly certain that that bit of fluff is 5 editions old.. and has been fairly consistant

porkuslime wrote:evidently one of the Marine super organs turns their spittle into acid (which does not harm their stomachs)

Is that because stomachs are filled with acid?

eh.. not as such.. here is the info from the Lexicanum site..

Betcher's Gland

Phase 17: Consists of two identical glands, implanted either into the lower lip, alongside the salivary glands or into the hard palette. The gland works in a similar way to the poison gland of venomous reptiles by synthesizing and storing deadly poison, which the Marines themselves are immune to due to the gland's presence. This allows a Space Marine to spit a blinding contact poison. The poison is also corrosive and can even burn away strong metals given sufficient time.

Personally i didnt lik the Blood Angels and Grey knights books, it is just... a turnoff.

porkuslime wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:I think it's called Eye of Terror.

Was one of the first BL books produced (well, when it became BL. After the original titles were all removed from sale and the publishing wing was relaunched)

I have had the misfortune of picking this up the other day.. Was at the used bookstore, and saw a title I didn't recognize.

Well... it is providing serious amusement at least..

Lets see.. rare psyker has insights into the Eye of Terror to the point where the Inquisition authorizes a special Null Ship to go into the Eye with a team of precogs and clairvoyants.. a squad of marines, and dual navigators. Once they get there.. it is too 'static-y" to get a read of space around them, so... they shut off the dampers for the Psykers to "get a good look".

Needless to say, that spelled doom for the ship.

End of Chapter 1.

Then.. we are treated to the cliche..

A rogue trader walks into a bar.. and finds an Eldar Robot called a Wraithguard lounging against the bar.. (and yes, the word was lounging)..

I am not sure I am gonna finish this.. so far the crimes against what nominally consist of 40k canon is pretty bad.

I quite enjoyed Eye of Terror. As a story it's quite good, just, as you say, a bit fast and loose with some of the background material

porkuslime wrote:eh.. not as such.. here is the info from the Lexicanum site..

Betcher's Gland
Phase 17: Consists of two identical glands, implanted either into the lower lip, alongside the salivary glands or into the hard palette. The gland works in a similar way to the poison gland of venomous reptiles by synthesizing and storing deadly poison, which the Marines themselves are immune to due to the gland's presence. This allows a Space Marine to spit a blinding contact poison. The poison is also corrosive and can even burn away strong metals given sufficient time.

Only that Black Templars have a defective Betcher gland not granting them that spit poison advantage (source: Deathguard Rulebook).
Still a case of stupid official background (reading like Chuck Norris facts ) and authors daring to use that stupid background.

Vaktathi wrote:. Space Marines are not in the chain of command of the Imperial Guard and can't just waltz in and bark orders and have officers arrested, and a tactical squad isn't going to kill *thousands* of Dark Eldar, and they certainly aren't going to send just one Space Marine after an unknown number of Dark Eldar raiders on an Imperial world.

I did think that the premise of that was kind of cool though (and to be fair, he was just reporting on whether or not more of a presence was needed, and it just so happened he could deal with them Stephen Seagal-style.

Ulver wrote:

porkuslime wrote:evidently one of the Marine super organs turns their spittle into acid (which does not harm their stomachs)

Is that because stomachs are filled with acid?

Well, there is a bit of a difference in concentration between stomach acids and, say, acids used for chemical etching and similar. There's a reason that stuff is labeled "Do not drink."

Pretty much any non-Abnett? About the only other BL author I like is Sandy Mitchell, and even then the Ciaphas books need to be spread out...there is a limit to that humor, and the books really aren't that different from each other.

Although I did like Flight of the Eisenstein...hmmm. Might have to consider other James Swallow books.

Never been able to bring myself to pick up any of Gav Thorpe's stuff - hated his fluff in his army books.

Dakka warned me about CS 'Multilazors' Goto before I could fall for that particular trap.

Seeing as how the only non-Dan Abnett BL book I've read is Ben Counter's Grey Knights Omnibus, I'll go with that one.

I didn't think the writing was terrible though. I hate how her butchered the GK fluff, but honestly, I don't blame him.

A Grey Knight is supposed to have no personality outside of "Slay the Daemon, the Heretic, and the Xeno! Praise the Emperor!" Basically, the reason they can't be corrupted by Chaos is that there is nothing to corrupt. Their only personality is pure praise to the Emperor and hate for the Daemonic.

Kinda part to write a story about characters that have no personality...

So you tell me Dakka... would you rather have a Grey Knight novel about walking drones just going around sticking their swords into Daemons, or would you rather have a young, idealistic Grey Knight who defeats his enemies through friendship and the power of love?

If you ask me, writing a GK book is extremely difficult, if not impossible, so you have to shake things up somewhat. Counter's writing isn't what's bad. It isn't great, but it's his story, not his writing style, that I disliked.

Mine has to be tales of heresy, especially the last story about Mr Angry, I think I only enjoyed half of the stories in there.

I think it was Battle for Helsreach or something like that. Guardsmen, Black Templars, Orks. It should have been awesome but it was completely lame.

I just finished Helsreach. Loved it up to the last chapter... then it tanked. I just did not think that the way the book ended fit with the doom-n-gloom that they had tried to build to the whole novel.

porkuslime wrote:I just finished Helsreach. Loved it up to the last chapter... then it tanked. I just did not think that the way the book ended fit with the doom-n-gloom that they had tried to build to the whole novel.

The last payoff can be disheartening when the rest of the book can be so good.

I don't know if I was spoiled by first time, but I regard Ian Watson's Space Marine the best novel i've read set in the 40k universe, which unfortunately makes most of the others i've read pale in significance! I sadly found it really quite hard to get into the space wolves novels, and the dawn of war ones as well, I have actually tried to re-read them to see if I could find the love, but to no avail :-( I couldn't get far at all without being let down again!

I'm really struggling through Nemesis at the moment. Its the first Horus Heresy book I haven't been able to get into.

Glad I wan't the only one

Spear just made it drag, I see why he was in there but I didn't like it

All of the Sigmar books. Reads like a child's attempt to fluff LOTR: The Two Towers into a series of books, each less interesting than the last...

blackclaw1 wrote:Redemption corps by rob sanders is one of the worst book i've ever read , and i've read over a broad spectrum it has a wandering plot line , its not cohesively written and the dialogue is naff
I guess i sound really pretentious

'claw

Agree.

Thousand sons isn't that bad. You guys are crazy. That book took me on a journey through my freaking mind, man

nerdfest09 wrote:I don't know if I was spoiled by first time, but I regard Ian Watson's Space Marine the best novel i've read set in the 40k universe, which unfortunately makes most of the others i've read pale in significance! I sadly found it really quite hard to get into the space wolves novels, and the dawn of war ones as well, I have actually tried to re-read them to see if I could find the love, but to no avail :-( I couldn't get far at all without being let down again!

Going from Space Marine to Dawn of War is possibly the biggest jump you could make from good to bad (well not bad as in badly written, but just 'tedious run of the mill') !

I loved Thousand Sons as well, the ending totally blew my mind, quite possibly the most tragic story in the Heresy so far and a reminder of the core concepts of what 40k is about.

The Inquisition War omnibus makes my eyes bleed. Ian Watson was a fluff rapist beyond the pale.

Grey knight books

I mean, the first one wasn't that bad
the second one was bad
the third one, words cannot describe

Did not like Brothers of the Snake. While actual writing by Abnett is fine, the stories are rather silly. Sending a single Space Marine, a warrior trained to live and die as part of a unit, to deal with a Dark Eldar incursion on a world? A single Tactical Squad kills *thousands* of Dark Eldar in a single battle? Space Marines giving Imperial Guard officers direct orders and having commanders arrested? Pure gak.

I haven't been able to get through the Battle for the Abyss, it's rather slow.

That said, Dead Men Walking is my new almost favorite 40k novel right after the Inquisition War trilogy (for those that have a problem with its fluff, keep in mind it was written during the Rogue Trader days, before even 2nd Edition, when the fluff was a lot different).

Khestra the Unbeheld wrote:The Inquisition War omnibus makes my eyes bleed. Ian Watson was a fluff rapist beyond the pale.

Uh no most of the fluff he used is the Rogue Trader fluff thats why the Squats are running around. They don't fit well with the more recent stuff true but its fairly accurate. Personally my favourite are the Caiaphas Cain series altohugh Abnett and William King produce good stuff. I absolutely hated Vermintide any good idea the author had had been ripped off either Skavenslayer or Daemonslayer....

Vaktathi wrote:

That said, Dead Men Walking is my new almost favorite 40k novel right after the Inquisition War trilogy (for those that have a problem with its fluff, keep in mind it was written during the Rogue Trader days, before even 2nd Edition, when the fluff was a lot different).

Absolutely, bare in mind that most of the background didn't exist when those books were written, and a lot of new boundaries were created with both those books and Space Marine were written. Some of it has become established, and some of it hasn't (Chaos Squats riding ambulls! ) which is why it might seem out of step.

Although, Khestra, you were not alone in your opinion of that and for years the Ian Watson books went un-republished during the mid-90's and generally were viewed as some kind of heretical verse that should not be spoken about let alone read. I once heard a story of a girl who was out shopping (keep with me here! ) - there was a sudden downpour of rain, and walking past a shop she reconised a GW shop window as some things she had been familiar with as a younger child (painted models etc.) She went into the store (partly for shelter) and said, and when quizzed by the redshirt said "hey, my dad used to write about these things". It turned out her Dad was Ian Watson, when the redshirt heard this he kicked her out of the store and back out into the rain. No joke.

Warrior Coven by C. S. Goto. I only have one eye now because of this book, I clawed it out to make the pain stop.

Wine of Dreams.....

Kroothawk wrote: And Path of the Warrior fields not a single Space marine IIRC. And Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Caine are quite safe as well.

Hmm, technically Path of the Warrior does have Space Marines, as does Ciaphas's latest installment but they die quite nicely, and have quite a secondary role in Cain, (they are just faceless enemies to be chainsawed down by the Eldar in PoW) so the entire thing people fear about Space Marines being ridiculously over-powered (which is what I personally like about them) does not come into it. Path of the Warrior is *awesome* and I don't use that word often.

Bad things? Hmm, I seem, by pure chance, have evaded all or most of the 'hated books' mentioned in this thread so far, I would say that the people who took over from Bill King on the Gotrek+Felix and Space Wolves books did a rubbish job compared to WK himself, but still passably good. Ravenor got worse as the series progressed, but I have a thing about reading novels, I always finish a book I've started (well, except for Eldest, sequel to Eragon, but that was truly, truly pants), so I've never put down a BL book halfway through and never gone back to it. Warrior Priest by David Hinks was a pretty weak book as I recall, and a fantastic reason for me not to return to these 'compilation series' like the Empire Army books. I liked Descent of Angels mind you and Flight of Eisenstein, granted, not as good as say, Legion, but it will be only slightly below the first trio of Garviel Loken books in my opnion. Not gonna compare it to First Heretic, haven't read it, wanna read Thousand Sons/ Prospero Burns first, but will, as everyone ever and their mother say First Heretic is awesome and must be read.

It's kinda hard for me to find any BL books I didn't actually like, but Zombieslayer was certainly a dull slog for large parts of the book. The fact that Felix is now sleeping with a girl first introduced in Trollslayer at age 8 (now 15 years later) is slightly ... disturbing as well. But it could be worse, he could have killed Gotrek off. I am honestly having trouble thinking of things I haven't liked. I tend to go for the popular ones as a better chance of being a better investment money-wise, which is probably the reason I've never gone for a lot of the 'rubbish' books. Are the Night Lords books any good?

99MDeery wrote:I mean a dreadnought that allows an Impy Guardsmen to craft a multilaser on his arm....clearly you didnt research your source material did you mate??

That was something suggested by, so naturally approved of, by editorial at the time. Mate.

Please let the dead rest in peace. Instead of posting in a thread nearly one year old, go ahead and start a new one.

Thanks!