I mean, seriously. The dude has his own "Action Figures", he has four year old children singing his songs.... And he now has his own trading cards Seriously, I work in retail, I have to stare at this guys smug mug alot depending on which department I work now
At the rate he's going, it will be a few more years, months possibly, before someone new takes his place and he is forgotten. The more you ignore him, as hard as that is, the faster the process will go.
I had the fortune not to have heard his music until a few weeks ago when I watched a group presentation on 'Justin Beiber's use of the internet as a means of engaging with his fanbase' at Uni.
He's not actually all that bad. I mean, it's crappy disposable pop, but the kid undoubtedly has natural talent. That said, I won't be purchasing his albums any time soon..
Albatross wrote:I had the fortune not to have heard his music until a few weeks ago when I watched a group presentation on 'Justin Beiber's use of the internet as a means of engaging with his fanbase' at Uni.
He's not actually all that bad. I mean, it's crappy disposable pop, but the kid undoubtedly has natural talent. That said, I won't be purchasing his albums any time soon..
Da Boss wrote:Pffft just ignore it. I don't think I'd even recognise his face if I saw it.
Pretty much this. Like most "assembled" performers,I don't foresee any staying power...look for him on celebrity rehab or "Dear lord I'm a big fat has been" in the next decade of so.
Slarg232 wrote:I mean, seriously. The dude has his own "Action Figures", he has four year old children singing his songs.... And he now has his own trading cards Seriously, I work in retail, I have to stare at this guys smug mug alot depending on which department I work now
How much longer do you guys think this will last?
There is a strong hint of jealousy in there methinks. Awwwww whatsthematter [big hugs] do you want an action doll?
Attach your pic and we can have a comp to see who can convert some IG with your face on them. You won't feel left out then.
Slarg232 wrote:I mean, seriously. The dude has his own "Action Figures", he has four year old children singing his songs.... And he now has his own trading cards Seriously, I work in retail, I have to stare at this guys smug mug alot depending on which department I work now
How much longer do you guys think this will last?
At first the OP seemed pointless, yet another tirade against a flash in the pan uber weeny bopper.
But it was the retail that got me..
Man! I feel your pain! There should at least be some form of remuneration to compensate for the suffering.
The good news is it won't last long.
The bad news is there are equally bad/even worst acts waiting to fill the void.
I am lucky and not subjected to such tosh, and would hate to be in your shoes!!
Have had similar torture in the past.
I can think of a lot of things worth getting outraged at in the world. That a specific, individual pop culture icon is getting more "merch" is not one of them.
Ive just read the Critisim section of the Wiki artical of Justen Beiber and Ill share with you its greatness.
Bieber has often been criticized for looking and sounding younger than his age and his effeminacy, teen pop music, image, and frequent media attention. He has been a frequent target for internet bloggers and message board posters—notably by users of internet message board 4chan, users of YouTube, and various Facebook groups. Pranks have included a successful campaign to push "Justin Bieber Syphilis" to the top of the Google Trends Hot Searches list; hacked YouTube videos that were altered so as to redirect users to adult websites or trigger pop-up messages saying that Bieber had been killed in a car accident; his Last.fm photograph being changed to pornographic images; various rumors circulated, from rumors that Bieber had died, joined a cult, or even that his mother was offered $50,000 to pose topless in Playboy magazine—none of which were true.This all forced the affected companies to update their security protocols to reverse the damage, and Bieber himself tweeted to fans reassuring them that he was still living and that false rumors about his mother "just grossed and weirded [him] out."
Most notable was the campaign to send Bieber to North Korea as part of his world tour (entitled My World Tour).This was carried out in part by 4chan, digg, and reddit users voting for the country on the tour's website, for the free competition to nominate a bonus country for the tour—the second-placed country being Israel, which presumably was voted for by Israelis genuinely wishing to attend the concert.It is highly unlikely that Bieber would actually have been given permission by the North Korean government, or concert organizers and management, to enter the country.Universal Music Group has denied any involvement in a poll that became the target of an online prank. A spokesperson for UMG told BBC News that it was a "hoax" but declined to give any further comment. Nick Collins of The Daily Telegraph speculated that "Bieber's character also appears to strike a particularly sour note with his Internet critics, with many remarks commenting on his youthful appearance, his teen-pop songs, his image as a heart-throb to young teenage girls and his manner of speech".
blood reaper wrote:
Most notable was the campaign to send Bieber to North Korea as part of his world tour (entitled My World Tour).This was carried out in part by 4chan, digg, and reddit users voting for the country on the tour's website, for the free competition to nominate a bonus country for the tour
This is pure comedy gold.
In defense of THE BEIBER, Usher knows how to sing....if he endorses the kid there is probably validity to it.
ShumaGorath wrote:Better than hanna montana. Funny how people complain now.
But Hannah Montana didn't have trading cards
You sure it's not just because you could tolerate a hot teen girl more then a teen boy? Despite one having vastly more exposure for far longer with multiple television shows and movies then the other?
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Death by Killer Bees. The mob has spoken!
Did somebody say BEES?
But seriously, don't listen to Sirius Hits 1 (or any other music/pop related radio channel), and his existence is but an already forgotten thing of the past.
is it any different than hannah montanna? I have a 'joey' from the backstreet boys figure and a Paul stanley from Kiss figure because I collect twisted lame pop culture stuff. I kind of want to find me one of those now.
Okay, so I've heard the name EVERYWHERE, but being one who avoids radio/tv like the plague (and has no kids), I'd never actually heard the music. So I listened to half a song on youtube. It's the same oversynthisized crap that's been going on about the radio since I STOPPED listening to it:
Grab some slim kid who can hit key *most of the time*, write songs for him, pass him singing through Autotune, and completely screw him on royalties cause he won't know any better.. Hey, I know it's only Tuesday, but let's call it a week.
Next week, we'll shoot a music video of him doing something really "thought provoking" (inexpensive) and have him shot (though a soft lens) wearing a short sleeve shirt under a long sleeve shirt under a short sleeve shirt staring out at the ocean, or walking slowly through a public place as if in deep contemplation. Use the airbrush to clean it up afterwards.
I'm struggling to see where the story here is. They've been doing this, ya know, since Backstreet Boys, Hanson, hell, anyone remember New Kids on the Block? Even the Monkeys didn't know how to play their own instruments. You guys can rage at the teenie-bopper pop-stars all you want, but they're just one head on the hydra. They're just people being given the 'chance of a lifetime' by the guy in the expensive suit. If you REALLY want them to go away, then hate on the music industry. If what they're doing is that intolerable, boycott their music. Stop listening. Don't even download it. The following is a list of the labels associated with Island Records (Justin's record label):
* Al's Records (1996–1997)[citation needed]
* Aladdin Records (UK) (mid-1960s)[citation needed]
* Antilles Records (1972–1998)
* Apparent Records (2007–present)[citation needed]
* Apollo Recordings (2006–2007)
* Black Swan Records (UK) (1963–1965 and mid-1970s)
* Blue Mountain (UK imprint only, 1970s)
* Blue (1999–2001)
* Blunted (1993–1996)
* Defacto Records (2010–Present)[citation needed]
* Europa Recordings (2006–2007)
* Fallout Records (UK division)
* 4th & Broadway (1983–1998)
* Fruition (1996–1998)
* Gee Street Records (1990–1997)
* Great Jones (1988–1994)[citation needed]
* Hannibal (1981-unknown closing date, distributed under Antilles)
* Island Black Music (1995–1998)
* Island Jamaica (1995–1997)[citation needed]
* Island Jamaica Jazz (1996)[citation needed]
* Island Masters (1980s–1990s; reissues)
* Island Records Australia (2007–present)
* Island Reggae Greats (1985, compilation series; re-issued in several forms)
* Island Trading Company (US holding distributor under PolyGram; 1983–1989)[citation needed]
* Island Urban Music (2007)
* Island Visual Arts (1985)[citation needed]
* Jump Records
* Manga Entertainment (1991–1997, moved to Chris Blackwell's Palm Pictures, then was sold to Starz Media)
* Mango Records (1972–1997, US imprint only until 1993)
* Mango Street (1989–1992)
* MonarC Entertainment (2002, founded by Mariah Carey)
* Sense ("Sense of Island"; 1990–1991)
* Stiff Records (1984–1986 only)
* Stolen Transmission (-2007, still in business, but not part of Island anymore)[4]
* Sue Records (UK division)
* Surprise Records (mid-1970s)
* Trade 2 (1996–1997)[citation needed]
* Trojan Records (1967–1968 only)
* Tuff Gong (1990–present, founded by Bob Marley)
* Witchseason Productions (Joe Boyd)
Albatross wrote:I had the fortune not to have heard his music until a few weeks ago when I watched a group presentation on 'Justin Beiber's use of the internet as a means of engaging with his fanbase' at Uni.
He's not actually all that bad. I mean, it's crappy disposable pop, but the kid undoubtedly has natural talent. That said, I won't be purchasing his albums any time soon..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Justin Beiber must die along with Twilight! (Yes they have nothing to do with each other except that they are both things that stupid teenage girls drool over. But I tend to group them all together and it seems there is not much difference.)
You know they are making a blockbuster movie about him.....right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry for the other post but,
There are two things that need to happen before I buy a Justine Beiber Album.
1.Learns how to Play Metal or Rock and Roll and not this R&B, Hip Hop POP or whatever this crap he plays now.
2.Stops selling out.
What makes me not like him is he is the biggest Sellout I have ever seen in a Musician. Even if by some...Evil chance I found (By Accident mind you.) a song I liked.
I would never even concider pirating it at all. Even a Super cool Techno version I wouldn't even touch with my Browser.
Action Figures, Cards, gaks, A Movie., glasses with his face, Posters.
There is only so far a song writer and performer can do before he becomes a sell out and a watered down nothing.
Vasarto wrote:
What makes me not like him is he is the biggest Sellout I have ever seen in a Musician. Even if by some...Evil chance I found (By Accident mind you.) a song I liked.
I would never even concider pirating it at all. Even a Super cool Techno version I wouldn't even touch with my Browser.
That's the thing though, I'm not so sure he's even a musician. I don't think he ever existed prior to selling out. That is to say; he's a product. He has all the traits of a carefully moderated and fine tuned corporate selling piece. Just enough allure to make him compelling to the who won't stop to think about how their being handed fluff completely lacking in substance, and at the same time, completely and utterly harmless in the eyes of the parents who will just buy it for their kids who are clamoring for it. The music was just the initial medium for selling it. At this point, I realized that I just stopped referring to him as a person. People have personality and it's usually the flaws that make them interesting. Where are the flaws? If you can't spot them, then it's because of the fact that the entity you see in the media doesn't exist. I have no doubt there is a person named Justin who looks like what they're shoving down the teeny-bopper's throats, but I'm not sure anyone actually knows or even cares to know him.
I suppose my issue (and I don't hate the kid) is that it seems he hasn't earned almost any of this. We were sold that he is the most popular thing that ever happened and that he is awesome and people just bought it. There was no build up, there was just a sudden appearance, which goes with what daedalus's statement about him being less musician and more prepackaged product. He is the Jonas Brothers replacement, albeit less masculine. Like the Jonas Brothers his shelf life isn't terribly high. Most prefabricated teenage heart-throbs become Trivial Pursuit questions. Of course, he isn't being sold to us as I imagine the majority of us here aren't the intended audience for this brand of computer generated 'music'.
Also, I hate his hair. Probably a nice enough kid though.
Ahtman wrote:I suppose my issue (and I don't hate the kid) is that it seems he hasn't earned almost any of this. We were sold that he is the most popular thing that ever happened and that he is awesome and people just bought it. There was no build up, there was just a sudden appearance, which goes with what daedalus's statement about him being less musician and more prepackaged product. He is the Jonas Brothers replacement, albeit less masculine. Like the Jonas Brothers his shelf life isn't terribly high. Most prefabricated teenage heart-throbs become Trivial Pursuit questions. Of course, he isn't being sold to us as I imagine the majority of us here aren't the intended audience for this brand of computer generated 'music'.
Also, I hate his hair. Probably a nice enough kid though.
He got his start making youtube videos where he would sing and make music in his own time, that got popular which in turn got him noticed. He wasn't pre fabricated in the way that most teen sensations are, he just sorta fell into it.
ShumaGorath wrote:He got his start making youtube videos where he would sing and make music in his own time, that got popular which in turn got him noticed. He wasn't pre fabricated in the way that most teen sensations are, he just sorta fell into it.
I wasn't saying that he was formed in some void and just appeared, just that the way it was handled was that it was if he had always been around when his level of celebrity went from Youtube to GLOBALSTAROMG overnight. Of the people that show talent on youtube, I've seen much better than him, but the pop world isn't really concerned with the most talented or the most deserving. I don't mean that as a slam, but noting that that is what it is. He had the marketable 'x' factor of androgyny with just hint of bad boy while still being safe. he's Davey Jones without the Monkees.
I would LOVE to be Justin Beiber. Think on it for a while.
Oh justin you're so cute and.... errr... well umm... hmm... you're so... err... well not that you're small... just that well... you aren't... how should I say this... I wouldn't feel anything...
Peter Wiggin wrote:
Guitardian wrote:is it any different than hannah montanna?
Yes, here is a picture of Miley Cyrus to make my point for me. Very different from THE BEIBER!!!!!
This makes me happy in ways I can't fully explain...
Just wait till he pulls something off like miley cyrus then he wont be very like be little kids or older kids. and if that doesnt happen then just ignore him, even thought that irratating high pitched voice is hard to ignore...
Granted I myself am NOT a fan of Beiber's music (not my cup of tea), but I find the nerd-rage in this thread somewhat forced.
The only thing more annoying than kiddie pop and boy bands are people that insist on telling you how much cooler they are for not liking it (which is what this thred can essentially be distilled down to).
Beiber was making videos of himself performing his songs (that he wrote and performed) on youtube BEFORE usher discovered him and decided to mentor him t stardom. It wasn't like he was picked out of a mall and told to lip sync to some music written by others. The kid was into music and was trying to make it happen himself on youtube. Too bad more people are,nt half as self-motivated and driven as this kid tbh.
I give the kid props for making a go of it, taking the opportunities presented to him,, and hopefully banking his fortune to set himself up for life. All of you would do the same if offered tons of money to do what you love. Hypocrit much? Denial much?
and yes the odds are his fifteen minutes are almost over, I'm sure he knows ths as well, but then again people said Justin Timberlake and mark Wahlberg were gonna be a flashes in the pan as well...
We get it: you are hip and happenign for not falling for commercial music. Want a cookie?
CT GAMER wrote:Granted I myself am NOT a fan of Beiber's music (not my cup of tea), but I find the nerd-rage in this thread somewhat forced.
The only thing more annoying than kiddie pop and boy bands are people that insist on telling you how much cooler they are for not liking it (which is what this thred can essentially be distilled down to).
Actually the only thing more annoying than either of those things are the people who pretend they are cooler than others becuase they act like they have no opinion.
And as I stated before the only thing really wrong with this kid is his hair. It's just...just awful.
CT GAMER wrote:Granted I myself am NOT a fan of Beiber's music (not my cup of tea), but I find the nerd-rage in this thread somewhat forced.
The only thing more annoying than kiddie pop and boy bands are people that insist on telling you how much cooler they are for not liking it (which is what this thred can essentially be distilled down to).
Actually the only thing more annoying than either of those things are the people who pretend they are cooler than others becuase they act like they have no opinion.
And as I stated before the only thing really wrong with this kid is his hair. It's just...just awful.
I think my opinion is in the first sentence you quoted above. The point however is that just becuse I don't like something doesnt make me feel the need to nerd-rage on the interwebz about it...
And btw I'd love for everyone to post current pics so we can compare and rate hairstyles. I know gamers are usually fashion icons, but I'm sure Beiber wouldn't be the only one in the "awful hair" camp...
CT GAMER wrote:I think my opinion is in the first sentence you quoted above. The point however is that just becuse I don't like something doesnt make me feel the need to nerd-rage on the interwebz about it...
We're supposed to get one of those arguments where we keep adding one more thing to the list going, but now you went and ruined it.
CT GAMER wrote:And btw I'd love for everyone to post current pics so we can compare and rate hairstyles. I know gamers are usually fashion icons, but I'm sure Beiber wouldn't be the only one in the "awful hair" camp...
I'm not sure how noting that other people have hair excuses bad hair. I still think Justin Bieber and Ellen Page are the same person.
CT GAMER wrote:
I think my opinion is in the first sentence you quoted above.
Not really, not liking a thing is essentially indifference to that thing. For example, I don't like Mongolia as I've never experienced it such that I can like it. But I also do not dislike Mongolia, as I've never experienced it such that I can dislike it.
The (Americanized) barbecue that country produces, on the other hand...
CT GAMER wrote:
The point however is that just becuse I don't like something doesnt make me feel the need to nerd-rage on the interwebz about it...
Well, obviously, if its simply a matter of not liking something then you have no recourse to comment. That only follows from hatred, or an active dislike.
Apparently you actively dislike nerd-rage on the internet, which is itself nerd-rage in a way; though perhaps one that is less "rage" and more "disdain".
I never knew who he was, but i kept on seeing slowed jb comments ALL OVER youtube. I kinda just ignored them until curiousity got the better of me... and now well lol.. nerd rage was born in those dark moments
I've not been sufficiently exposed to his autotuned crap to feel a blindless rage when hearing his name, but from what I've seen about him, I feel quite sad for this kid.
He doesn't understand that he is only a fashion (like so many others before him). He doesn't understand that within 1 or perhaps 2 years the success will vanish and that another idol will be made. When a journalist asked him what he would do if
success faded, he was just unable to understand the question and his agents had to explain him.
No doubt this will not end well for him.
The reason I feel sad is his lack of understanding of the business he's in. Somehow, spoiling someone's life for profit seems wrong to me (unless this person knows what he's doing which is clearly not the case here).
Now, after feeling sad for the others, let's get a little cynical:
Spoiler:
There's no need to call for murder on him, alcohol and drugs will make their job whithin...let's say 5 years. And in 2020 a TV show will depict how he drifted after his carreer collapsed, and how was finally found dead of an overdose in California.
Does no one else remember New Kids on the Block, or NKOTB as all the jr.high girls scrawled all over their notebooks 20 plus years ago? How about the Bay City Rollers? Man, my sisters were in love with those guys. Now they're a bunch of fat bald Scotsman who work at Argos.
Yes, I am that old. My age is my armour protecting me from pop culture manufactured schisse like Justin Beaver, Miley cyrus, Lady What's her name and anyone with the moniker "MC" attached to their name. Plus everyone knows music got super lame after 1978.
Heyena Joe, I think he's too naive/good to do that. I'd predict that he either successfully reinvents himself post puberty (or there is a slight chance that he is just a natural soprano) and launches a more mature not-based-on-six-month-tween-crushes career (I'll admit, it is a slim chance), or he becomes a b to d list celebrity, good for being random hosts and mystery guests of T.V. shows. Heck, maybe he'd be like Eminem (I only know about the fellow from a classmate's presentation, this might be false), who basically faded from the public eye, responsibly handled his money, and is now a happy father with a regular job. Once again, that might be some guy's b.s. spin, heck, it might even be my memory playing tricks on us all. But hey, it's possible. He seems like a smart enough, if somewhat shallow, of a kid. Probably could do okay in college, career, ect. as long as the fame doesn't go to his head.
micahaphone wrote:Hyena Joe, I think he's too naive/good to do that. I'd predict that he either successfully reinvents himself post puberty (or there is a slight chance that he is just a natural soprano) and launches a more mature not-based-on-six-month-tween-crushes career (I'll admit, it is a slim chance)
Quite slim indeed, it could work for an actor, but I'm not sure it would work for a "singer".
micahaphone wrote:or he becomes a b to d list celebrity, good for being random hosts and mystery guests of T.V. shows.
More likely something like that...until the overdose.
micahaphone wrote: He seems like a smart enough, if somewhat shallow, of a kid. Probably could do okay in college, career, ect. as long as the fame doesn't go to his head.
I think it's too late, he has reached the point where he simply can't imagine his life without this fame, and that's precisely why I think it won't end well for him (perhaps if he'd been older when it all started...)
micahaphone wrote:maybe he'd be like Eminem (I only know about the fellow from a classmate's presentation, this might be false), who basically faded from the public eye, responsibly handled his money, and is now a happy father with a regular job.
He's still making albums, and even admits how bad his last ones were
WELP that shows how much I know. But it's possible. I think Beiber is taking it relatively well, despite how much he is schlubbed from one location to the next for whatever event he has to be at.
Lol I can't believe there's an entire site for that. But I'm sure there are worse sites about him out there.
Darn now I'm tempted to look some of them up. Must..resist..the urge.
Btw those videos are a new guilty pleasure for me. Mostly pleasure, but still.
Edit: Here are 10 real Facebook hate groups for him.
1. Justin Bieber should do a cover of ‘If I were a boy’ by Beyoncé (2,309 fans). 2. If Puberty Doesn’t Kill Justin Bieber, I Will (387 members). 3. Nice Voice Justin Bieber, Does It Come In Mens? (22,040 members). 4. I bet the 2020 New Years ball will drop before Justin Bieber’s will (10,497 members). 5. Can This Gay Man In A Turban Get More Fans Then Justin Bieber (1,908 members). 6. Hey, Justin Bieber, a little girl just called, she wants her voice back (1,574 members). 7. My Grandma’s More Gangsta Then Justin Bieber (1,227 members). 8. If I can survive a Justin Bieber song, I can survive a nuclear holocaust (5,075 members). 9. Puberty Is Going To Hit Justin Bieber Like a Train (293,071 fans). 10. Lesbians That Look Like Justin Bieber (306 fans).
Khornholio wrote:Does no one else remember New Kids on the Block, or NKOTB as all the jr.high girls scrawled all over their notebooks 20 plus years ago? How about the Bay City Rollers? Man, my sisters were in love with those guys. Now they're a bunch of fat bald Scotsman who work at Argos.
Yes, I am that old. My age is my armour protecting me from pop culture manufactured schisse like Justin Beaver, Miley cyrus, Lady What's her name and anyone with the moniker "MC" attached to their name. Plus everyone knows music got super lame after 1978.
Khornholio wrote:Does no one else remember New Kids on the Block, or NKOTB as all the jr.high girls scrawled all over their notebooks 20 plus years ago? How about the Bay City Rollers? Man, my sisters were in love with those guys. Now they're a bunch of fat bald Scotsman who work at Argos.
Yes, I am that old. My age is my armour protecting me from pop culture manufactured schisse like Justin Beaver, Miley cyrus, Lady What's her name and anyone with the moniker "MC" attached to their name. Plus everyone knows music got super lame after 1978.
what about ABBA?
Conceded. Music started getting lamer around 1974.
Mike Noble wrote:Lol I can't believe there's an entire site for that. But I'm sure there are worse sites about him out there.
Darn now I'm tempted to look some of them up. Must..resist..the urge.
Btw those videos are a new guilty pleasure for me. Mostly pleasure, but still.
Edit: Here are 10 real Facebook hate groups for him.
1. Justin Bieber should do a cover of ‘If I were a boy’ by Beyoncé (2,309 fans).
2. If Puberty Doesn’t Kill Justin Bieber, I Will (387 members).
3. Nice Voice Justin Bieber, Does It Come In Mens? (22,040 members).
4. I bet the 2020 New Years ball will drop before Justin Bieber’s will (10,497 members).
5. Can This Gay Man In A Turban Get More Fans Then Justin Bieber (1,908 members).
6. Hey, Justin Bieber, a little girl just called, she wants her voice back (1,574 members).
7. My Grandma’s More Gangsta Then Justin Bieber (1,227 members).
8. If I can survive a Justin Bieber song, I can survive a nuclear holocaust (5,075 members).
9. Puberty Is Going To Hit Justin Bieber Like a Train (293,071 fans).
10. Lesbians That Look Like Justin Bieber (306 fans).
My "hate" towards the kid is justified. He's an idiot. This is pretty much what happened in an interview once;
Interviewer: Is it true your last name means 'basketball' in German?
JB: What's that?
Interviewr: German?
JB: I don't know what that is.
That made me an angry Tim, but then I rejoiced when I saw him walk into a glass door. And a window.
EDIT: Just found out that 'Biber' is the German word for 'beaver'.
Tim the Biovore wrote: EDIT: Just found out that 'Biber' is the German word for 'beaver'.
ha, my sister was watching Wizards of Waverly place,being in the same room, basically so was I. And Alex, the character played by Selena Gomez, turned herself into Justin Beaver
Slarg232 wrote:I mean, seriously. The dude has his own "Action Figures", he has four year old children singing his songs.... And he now has his own trading cards Seriously, I work in retail, I have to stare at this guys smug mug alot depending on which department I work now
Seriously, I work in retail, I have to stare at this guys smug mug alot depending on which department I work now 
You won't feel left out then.
This makes me happy in ways I can't fully explain... 
