They're uncompromising, can be rather irritating, and, worst of all, they can be very overpriced.

But, at what cost? It seems alot of the time, people take GW services for granted.

every time I go to GW, I see kids hanging around in the store. they don't mind looking after kids, as long as there is a chance for patronage.
They're usually willing to help with problems [within the game] that you're having, and helpful while you're learning to paint.

their tools can be of rather poor quality, and their cases can be just as bad, but they're almost never going to not take responsibility for their products. they almost always refund, except for extenuating circumstances

So, it's my opinion that people don't always bag GW - other then being expensive, they're often very good and reputable.

oh, and they have excellent customer service. [by phone and e-mail.]

Just my two cents. what are yours?

I've heard it said that by buying GW games you're not just buying the models, but buying into a community. I can't argue. As somebody who loves wargaming, I'm always guaranteed to find another 40k player in any game store I go to. It's not the best game in the world, but it's not too hard to find a game.

I have no major issues with GW aside from some of their cynical sales ploys and rulebook inconsistency (was impressed with the mass FAQs on the release of Warhammer 8th though).

Certainly in the UK, they are a big reason for the fairly active war gaming community. It's where most of us start.

I think that, because the employees are also part of the hobby, they are enthusiastic and willing to help. It's like a perfect job because you are pretty much just doing what you like to do and getting paid.

If GW was a food, I would give it a 7 out of 10. Not too bad really but room for improvement.

Can I have sprinkles please?

the game is fun but they're a pretty terrible company and you have to drink the Jim Jones kool-aid if you want to use their stores

OoieGoie wrote:
Can I have sprinkles please?

Given your avatar, this comment is adorable.

Anyway, GW is just fine. The hobby is sort of pricey, but not to the extent that I stop buying. The biggest issue seems to be the rate at which prices have escalated. When I started playing 16 Chaos Warriors were 20 USD, and that was only (!?!) 12 years ago.

Evil sponge, why are they a terrible company? are you saying it's bad of them to ask you to pay for their space, their terrain, their toys, their knowledge?

that comment really gets to me. how dare you forget why patronage is important.

I don't have any problems with GW. I think some people just love to hate them and they yell about it on the interwebs because they can.

Yeah the price is high, but I know it's high and I buy what I can afford and actually want, I also buy the occasional model just because I want to paint and sell it, and then turn around and use the cash I make to buy stuff I want to keep so the hobby pays for itself sometimes.

The games have their issues but they're still fun to play and they make some of the best looking models around. I'll be more than happy to keep giving GW my money for as long as they continue to have high quality models that are fun to paint, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I have no real issue with GW, except lack of support for Specialist Games. They are sitting on a veritable treasure trove of great spin off games and are doing nothing with them, aside from Space Hulks limited run.

I have never had problems with GW. I mean, I;ve heard the horror stories online about some horrible managers or pushy employees, but I've never encountered it myself.

They may be expensive, and the rules may not be the best, but I enjoy my games. They always have a very....cinematic quality to them. I mean c'mon, everyone has imagined that game their playing as some bad ass movie right?

I guess, all in all, GW isn't a bad company. They're not gods among men in their perfection, but they get the job done, and they get it done well. What else can we ask for?

From what I've read on Dakka, there are a lot of players who will grumble about the prices but still willingly pay them. I stopped last year, not even buying from discount websites. What I will point out is that there will come points for all of you where you will feel less inclined to buy from any source. And while GW brought many of us into the hobby, GW are now pushing many of us out of the hobby; even 'little Timmy' may not even be able to afford to get into the hobby! Beware the law of diminishing returns...

The quality of their plastic kits is just top notch. It's what keeps me interested, frankly.

Their customer service is tops and their ubiquitous nature means you can find a player in almost any wargames groups and they are the means by which many many gamers enter the hobby.

But their position within "the hobby" is an aggressive domineering one and the quality of their miniatures is generally good, their actual games and publications are fairly poor. They are in fact too ubiquitous which drives down competition and therefore, from our gaming point of view, customer choice and variety. Their massively corporate profit making approach means they are heavily invested in attracting new players and constantly leave older players with models, armies and whole games unsupported or in fact deliberately rendered obsolete. As far as their support for gaming goes in stores, it only stretches as far as their main games which is where the money is made. Taking in a copy of necromunda is unlikely to be allowed a game, hell do they even allow people to play Space Hulk released last year? And thus you are isolated as a veteran to gaming with small gaming groups and that's when you know you are a vet... when half your products and models are 'officially' useless and only any real use in private groups and with house rules.

I think they allowed Space Hulk for the month it was released then it was gone again.

Generally their best point is customer service.

Like 'em or hate 'em, GW is the gaming equivalent of microsoft, they're big and ubiquitous, they know it, they're taking advantages of it, and no, they don't really care about you.

Having said that, they're overcosted, clearly, but still reasonnably competent when it comes to writing games. There are far less competent gaming companies around.

n0t_u wrote:I think they allowed Space Hulk for the month it was released then it was gone again.

Well there you go. How many other manufacturers offer just a month's support to one of their products, even a limited edition one?

I wouldn't call what GW did with Space Hulk 'support'. I mean, not a month (or two) before they released Planet Strike and that was all but forgotten by the time Space Hulk came out.

dogma wrote:

OoieGoie wrote:
Can I have sprinkles please?

Given your avatar, this comment is adorable.

And given your avatar that comment is horrifying.

I appreciate GW for giving me something to do no the weekends

GW put retail stores in main streets in cities all over the globe. This has grown miniature gaming more than anything else. I mean, lots of people burn out or outgrow GW games and go onto other products, but how many of them would have ever played a game if the only means of getting into mini games was mail order (now the internet) or tiny little stores in the bad part of town, run by a really, really smelly man?

NELS1031 wrote: I have no real issue with GW, except lack of support for Specialist Games. They are sitting on a veritable treasure trove of great spin off games and are doing nothing with them, aside from Space Hulks limited run.

Actually specialist games have proved to be a huge loss. After you buy the army/models you want, there's not much left to it beyond that. It's not like the wargames where you can expand your army in a variety of ways, you have a limited selection. I understand the theory is "When I get tired of the same old game, I can switch it up with a specialist game!" but reality has proven that given the opportunity gamers will cause communities to stagnate by playing specialist games.

My opinion, gw has excellent customer service, but are too pricey. I wished they kept up with the support games, necromunda, epic, bloodbowl, space hulk just too name a few, these were really great games. I remmember a road warrior style game gw made back during the rouge trader day off hand I can't think of the name of it, but it look like it had potential. Anyone rememmbers the name of that game?

I don't think the good points listed really balance out the horrible overpricing and inconsistent quality of GW's products. Really, the things that people in this thread are praising them for should IMHO be the bare minimum standard of service we expect from every company.

Back when GW had a bitz service, I would have said they had great customer service. Now, I have to say they only really provide service when it looks to them like they'll get an easy sale. In fact, I've found my local GW to be perhaps not unfriendly but cold if I am there to watch other people play and not buy something myself.

JOHIRA wrote:Now, I have to say they only really provide service when it looks to them like they'll get an easy sale. In fact, I've found my local GW to be perhaps not unfriendly but cold if I am there to watch other people play and not buy something myself.

Honestly, we get along great at my local GW because I've been going there for a few years. Even to the point joke smack-talk to each other.
Me: "Hey Bill, check out this paint-job"
Bill(without looking right away): "It's stupid."
Me: "Your face is stupid."
Bill: "Not as stupid as yours."
Me: "But it does not matter for me because I'm as tough as a kroxigor*."

However, when I go to a different GW. I also get this feeling that I'm unwanted since I'm usually not exactly flipping my wallet out.

*It's a running joke that Bill once said I was T4 and he(as an LM player) is kind of annoyed that kroxigors are S/T4, so we joke that I'm as tough as a kroxigor.

Captain Solon wrote:Evil sponge, why are they a terrible company? are you saying it's bad of them to ask you to pay for their space, their terrain, their toys, their knowledge?

that comment really gets to me. how dare you forget why patronage is important.

No i'm saying that, of course I don't expect them to give away their services for free, I'm saying its not a very well run company.

The only thing about GW that irks me is that everyone is eye-humping my girlfriend, including the staff.
Curse her attractiveness.

That or one of the GW staff at my local shop is really obnoxious to the extreme.

Aside from that, I've never found them too pushy or anything. Probably because I'm the kind of guy that ignores pushiness.

I believe, overall, that GW only gets a 3 out of 10 at best. The customer service is great. It should be with any larger company though so I cant make this a high mark item. Their models are consistent most of the time with a higher quality of sculpting, design and actual quality of casting. There are the minotaurs though so this reduces points as well. Their inability to produce all of the models listed in an army book is a big reduction in points as I see it. White Dwarf has gone through the roof in price and through the floor in quality. Another big downer. Codex creep is annoying even if it isn't intended. I am still unsure if it is though. The new gamers only attitude is horrible. Most companies are able to support their regulars and attract new people as well so I see this as a horrible attitude brought on by greedy corporate banking types. Damn you Bank of Scotland. The quality of their hobby products such as tools and paints are rather poor in most cases and can be found substantially cheaper and often much better at your local hardware store or hobby shop.

Overall I really can say that the only thing that keeps GW afloat is the community that they shun and actually show a disdain for in their retail stores from what I have read. Why people choose to defend then at all still amazes me. I believe that because of this community though GW wont have to change at all because they are still supported. What is the motivation to stop kicking you if you keep coming back every time that I do?

Wolfun wrote:The only thing about GW that irks me is that everyone is eye-humping my girlfriend, including the staff.
Curse her attractiveness.

That or one of the GW staff at my local shop is really obnoxious to the extreme.

Aside from that, I've never found them too pushy or anything. Probably because I'm the kind of guy that ignores pushiness.

Get used to the eye humping. the GW store isn't the only place it happens. Or get an uglier girlfriend.
It isnt the fact that they are staff that makes them obnoxious. Its the fact that they are elitist staff in an elitist hobby.
You might be one of the few that has a store without pushy staff. Be thankful.

Excellent on-line customer services, yes. Free shipping and swift delivery? Ace.

Their brick and mortar stores? No thanks, I stopped going there after the cool kids were fired and replaced by massive tools who do the leg hump tactic the moment you step in. "OHHIDIDYOUKNOWTHEREARENEWDARKELDARTHATYOUSHOULDTOTALLYBUY!!!" Decline their offer and be prepared for the stare. Also, don't crack jokes about their sales tactics, hoo boy.

Costumer service was excellent, they were nice enough to ship me replacement stuff even though I couldn't find any of the info they asked for, box number or receipt (twas a small error at least) and the quality of the models are generally top notch.

Complaints: pricey and not enough attention to their other games. Though I would like a battlefleet gothic force still, just for the look of the craft.

BrookM wrote:Excellent on-line customer services, yes. Free shipping and swift delivery? Ace.

Their brick and mortar stores? No thanks, I stopped going there after the cool kids were fired and replaced by massive tools who do the leg hump tactic the moment you step in. "OHHIDIDYOUKNOWTHEREARENEWDARKELDARTHATYOUSHOULDTOTALLYBUY!!!" Decline their offer and be prepared for the stare. Also, don't crack jokes about their sales tactics, hoo boy.

I was under the informed impression that GW staff approach customers because it's their job. If they're leghumping then they're bad employees for a start... but on the other hand if you're too socially stunted to impress upon them that you're "just looking" then you probably deserve it. Going into a GW to take the piss out of them is probably a bad idea, yeah. That applies to just about everywhere else too.

evilsponge wrote:

Captain Solon wrote:Evil sponge, why are they a terrible company? are you saying it's bad of them to ask you to pay for their space, their terrain, their toys, their knowledge?

that comment really gets to me. how dare you forget why patronage is important.

No i'm saying that, of course I don't expect them to give away their services for free, I'm saying its not a very well run company.

Given that they actually are a rather successful and very well-run company, I'm inclined to politely advise you that you're mistaken. Aside from your blunt opinion, do you have any supporting statements?

Regarding Space Hulk, I've recently seen people playing it in a GW store and no one made an attempt to stop them.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

BrookM wrote:Excellent on-line customer services, yes. Free shipping and swift delivery? Ace.

Their brick and mortar stores? No thanks, I stopped going there after the cool kids were fired and replaced by massive tools who do the leg hump tactic the moment you step in. "OHHIDIDYOUKNOWTHEREARENEWDARKELDARTHATYOUSHOULDTOTALLYBUY!!!" Decline their offer and be prepared for the stare. Also, don't crack jokes about their sales tactics, hoo boy.

I was under the informed impression that GW staff approach customers because it's their job. If they're leghumping then they're bad employees for a start... but on the other hand if you're too socially stunted to impress upon them that you're "just looking" then you probably deserve it. Going into a GW to take the piss out of them is probably a bad idea, yeah. That applies to just about everywhere else too.

Wow, from green straight to red skipping orange. Classy mate, real classy.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

BrookM wrote:Excellent on-line customer services, yes. Free shipping and swift delivery? Ace.

Their brick and mortar stores? No thanks, I stopped going there after the cool kids were fired and replaced by massive tools who do the leg hump tactic the moment you step in. "OHHIDIDYOUKNOWTHEREARENEWDARKELDARTHATYOUSHOULDTOTALLYBUY!!!" Decline their offer and be prepared for the stare. Also, don't crack jokes about their sales tactics, hoo boy.

I was under the informed impression that GW staff approach customers because it's their job. If they're leghumping then they're bad employees for a start... but on the other hand if you're too socially stunted to impress upon them that you're "just looking" then you probably deserve it. Going into a GW to take the piss out of them is probably a bad idea, yeah. That applies to just about everywhere else too.

This is a pretty unfair criticism of BrookM. I've been to just about every nerdly business on the planet in several countries, and I've never gotten the hard-sell-the-moment-you-step-in-the-door at any of them that I get at a GW store. Even in high-end shops, most stores allow you a little bit of time to browse on your own before hitting you up with sales pitches. And most sales pitches for other products are made up of something more enticing than breathless if clueless enthusiasm.

I go to GW stores because I want to talk to someone IRL about miniatures and don't have any other venues to do so. I get tired of getting hit up to buy the latest release/overpriced hobby tool/scenery completely irrelevant to my army/pot of paint every single time I set foot in the store. And the black shirt in my store knows I'm not going to buy something every time I come in. And yet he still jumps in with the hard sell.

The sad thing is, most days my enthusiasm is pretty near the tipping point for a purchase. If my local GW guy would relate to me as a human being (as opposed to a generic carbon-based cash delivery vehicle) they could probably get me to buy more. For example, my beastmen army is my first Fantasy army, and I've told my local GW blackshirt that. And yet he's done nothing to encourage me to buy product faster other than to directly ask me to buy product faster. If he'd invite me to play a demo game with him or introduce me to some local players or talk about my planned army list or whatever I could conceivably spend twice as much per year and get some personal enjoyment out of it. But my blackshirt doesn't seem to want to relate to me outside of The Hard Sell, so I get annoyed with being in the shop, and most weeks decide I'd rather spend my free cash on beer/steaks/etc. Good salesmanship isn't just asking the customer if they want Devlan Mud with that. It's making the customer want to spend more. It's creating value for your product through your relationship with the customer, not just proclaiming your product to be the Porsche of Miniatures.

I see the high prices of GW as a form of insurance: you pay for your models and pay a bit extra for insurance that if something is damaged, they tend to replace it for you with no questions asked: I had damaged models and even offered to send the damaged models back, either by mistakes in the directions or an incomplete box set and get a refund of a new model that is not damaged/incomplete, but was always told to keep the original model. You pay higher prices for the insurance that if something does go wrong, you will be refunded and end up with some free material. It's just like car, home, or health insurance, but instead that higher cost is just added into the models instead of being tacked on as an extra-it's hobby insurance. Yes, we gripe about GWs high costs, just like we gripe about all other insurances-but we still pay them because we need to. This is just a luxury insurance. I complain about GW prices myself, but when I get that box of berzerkers missing a leg/arm sprue and call them up and get a full 4 additional berzerkers, or ruin my first drop pod because the diagram in the instructions are inaccurate and they send me a new drop pod free of charge, I remember why I pay that extra: to insure myself that damaged goods will be replaced. So thank you GW for the great customer service. Even if your 'insurance' does cost the same as my car insurance per month

Stuff has changed in the GW stores, period. Back then you could talk with staff about anything hobby related and they had the time to go into stuff, be it painting, tactics or the odd rumour discussion. But with the old guard removed it's all about selling boxes now, they've got quota to meet and the flavour of the month needs to be pushed hardest.

timetowaste85 wrote:I see the high prices of GW as a form of insurance: you pay for your models and pay a bit extra for insurance that if something is damaged, they tend to replace it for you with no questions asked: I had damaged models and even offered to send the damaged models back, either by mistakes in the directions or an incomplete box set and get a refund of a new model that is not damaged/incomplete, but was always told to keep the original model. You pay higher prices for the insurance that if something does go wrong, you will be refunded and end up with some free material. It's just like car, home, or health insurance, but instead that higher cost is just added into the models instead of being tacked on as an extra-it's hobby insurance. Yes, we gripe about GWs high costs, just like we gripe about all other insurances-but we still pay them because we need to. This is just a luxury insurance. I complain about GW prices myself, but when I get that box of berzerkers missing a leg/arm sprue and call them up and get a full 4 additional berzerkers, or ruin my first drop pod because the diagram in the instructions are inaccurate and they send me a new drop pod free of charge, I remember why I pay that extra: to insure myself that damaged goods will be replaced. So thank you GW for the great customer service. Even if your 'insurance' does cost the same as my car insurance per month

I have the same insurance with a lot of stuff. I buy practically anything and its not right. I complain to the seller and I get replacement. I buy socks at wal mart and they replace them if the seam is poorly done. I buy kitchen knives and they don't hold the edge as advertised then they get replaced. I go to my local hobby shop and purchase anything there. if there is a problem then the store replaces it without question.

Now I will concede that I don't get to keep the original defective item in most cases unless it was a disposable item. GW replacing without return is actually an economical choice anyway. It cost more to return the item and process it. That is it. And what are they gonna do with a defective sprue anyway? Recycle it? They gotta ship it again to the plant. Throw it away? Why have it shipped back anyway.

The sole reason that the price is high is because the community tolerates it with the fact that they keep spending the money to prove GW made the financially correct decision.

This thread seems to have been totaly derailed somewhere along the way.

Wasn't this supposed to be the "GW is not so bad" thread?



On topic I look at the stores as more a of a gateway for alot of people who have no experience with wargaming. And it gives those who try a good way to pick up new skill sets like painting or terain building. And gives alot of diverse people a chance to be social.

I have no beef with GW. The business is in need of some serious help.

They have a chance to really get mainstream, and they seem to timid to do so. The company is not "aggressive" enough

Their support for independent retailers far, far outstrips anything that any other company does. Free racks, free shipping, preview books and models, event support. Trust: If I call in a problem with a box, they ship me a new one. I don't have to ship it back first, take pictures, or wait 6 weeks. I get sick of the runaround other companies put me through after they ship me bad product. A retailer can recieve thousands of dollars in support from GW every year, and use it to support their community of gamers.

I've found them overall to be a flexible, generous, and well run company.

timetowaste85 wrote:I see the high prices of GW as a form of insurance: you pay for your models and pay a bit extra for insurance that if something is damaged, they tend to replace it for you with no questions asked: I had damaged models and even offered to send the damaged models back, either by mistakes in the directions or an incomplete box set and get a refund of a new model that is not damaged/incomplete, but was always told to keep the original model. You pay higher prices for the insurance that if something does go wrong, you will be refunded and end up with some free material. It's just like car, home, or health insurance, but instead that higher cost is just added into the models instead of being tacked on as an extra-it's hobby insurance. Yes, we gripe about GWs high costs, just like we gripe about all other insurances-but we still pay them because we need to. This is just a luxury insurance. I complain about GW prices myself, but when I get that box of berzerkers missing a leg/arm sprue and call them up and get a full 4 additional berzerkers, or ruin my first drop pod because the diagram in the instructions are inaccurate and they send me a new drop pod free of charge, I remember why I pay that extra: to insure myself that damaged goods will be replaced. So thank you GW for the great customer service. Even if your 'insurance' does cost the same as my car insurance per month

Rubbish. It's not "insurance" by any stretch of the imagination, it's a legal requirement. GW don't do anything that other companies are not expected to do. All shops are obliged under the sale of goods act and similar to supply you with a replacement product or your money back if the item sold to you is not 'fit for purpose', ie miscast, damaged or has parts missing. Having to abide by the law is not an adequate reason for jacking up the prices. The same laws apply to all manufacturers, even the cheap ones, everyone is obliged to replace damaged products.

The reason GW tell you usually not to bother returning something is because they could reasonably be expected to cover the cost of the postage and then once they have it back they would have to break up the kit and take out the parts that are still saleable and put them back into the production line to be repackaged and sold again. All that is likely more hassle and cost than the actual production cost and postage of the kit in the first place. It's much easier to simply write off the kit and send you another one. Job done.

The idea that GW should be so highly commended for replacing miscast models and could have their high prices justified in any way as a result is just barmy. Sure, they provide a good, professional replacement service, but lets not get carried away here. It's merely being professional and following retailing laws.

It's the background that keeps me coming back to 40k. GW does a good job of working on their background (though I miss when the background actually progressed).

Quality of plastics is good, but there are other companies now with the same quality and lower prices.

Oh, there's also the nostalgia. It's not something GW does, but something they did. At this point in my life my happy thoughts about GW are based on my fond memories of the GW of the past.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Rubbish. It's not "insurance" by any stretch of the imagination, it's a legal requirement. GW don't do anything that other companies are not expected to do. All shops are obliged under the sale of goods act and similar to supply you with a replacement product or your money back if the item sold to you is not 'fit for purpose', ie miscast, damaged or has parts missing. Having to abide by the law is not an adequate reason for jacking up the prices. The same laws apply to all manufacturers, even the cheap ones, everyone is obliged to replace damaged products.

The reason GW tell you usually not to bother returning something is because they could reasonably be expected to cover the cost of the postage and then once they have it back they would have to break up the kit and take out the parts that are still saleable and put them back into the production line to be repackaged and sold again. All that is likely more hassle and cost than the actual production cost and postage of the kit in the first place. It's much easier to simply write off the kit and send you another one. Job done.

The idea that GW should be so highly commended for replacing miscast models and could have their high prices justified in any way as a result is just barmy. Sure, they provide a good, professional replacement service, but lets not get carried away here. It's merely being professional and following retailing laws.

You've never had to claim anything back on insurance, have you?

JOHIRA wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

BrookM wrote:Excellent on-line customer services, yes. Free shipping and swift delivery? Ace.

Their brick and mortar stores? No thanks, I stopped going there after the cool kids were fired and replaced by massive tools who do the leg hump tactic the moment you step in. "OHHIDIDYOUKNOWTHEREARENEWDARKELDARTHATYOUSHOULDTOTALLYBUY!!!" Decline their offer and be prepared for the stare. Also, don't crack jokes about their sales tactics, hoo boy.

I was under the informed impression that GW staff approach customers because it's their job. If they're leghumping then they're bad employees for a start... but on the other hand if you're too socially stunted to impress upon them that you're "just looking" then you probably deserve it. Going into a GW to take the piss out of them is probably a bad idea, yeah. That applies to just about everywhere else too.

This is a pretty unfair criticism of BrookM. I've been to just about every nerdly business on the planet in several countries, and I've never gotten the hard-sell-the-moment-you-step-in-the-door at any of them that I get at a GW store. Even in high-end shops, most stores allow you a little bit of time to browse on your own before hitting you up with sales pitches. And most sales pitches for other products are made up of something more enticing than breathless if clueless enthusiasm.

I go to GW stores because I want to talk to someone IRL about miniatures and don't have any other venues to do so. I get tired of getting hit up to buy the latest release/overpriced hobby tool/scenery completely irrelevant to my army/pot of paint every single time I set foot in the store. And the black shirt in my store knows I'm not going to buy something every time I come in. And yet he still jumps in with the hard sell.

The sad thing is, most days my enthusiasm is pretty near the tipping point for a purchase. If my local GW guy would relate to me as a human being (as opposed to a generic carbon-based cash delivery vehicle) they could probably get me to buy more. For example, my beastmen army is my first Fantasy army, and I've told my local GW blackshirt that. And yet he's done nothing to encourage me to buy product faster other than to directly ask me to buy product faster. If he'd invite me to play a demo game with him or introduce me to some local players or talk about my planned army list or whatever I could conceivably spend twice as much per year and get some personal enjoyment out of it. But my blackshirt doesn't seem to want to relate to me outside of The Hard Sell, so I get annoyed with being in the shop, and most weeks decide I'd rather spend my free cash on beer/steaks/etc. Good salesmanship isn't just asking the customer if they want Devlan Mud with that. It's making the customer want to spend more. It's creating value for your product through your relationship with the customer, not just proclaiming your product to be the Porsche of Miniatures.

BrookM wrote:Wow, from green straight to red skipping orange. Classy mate, real classy.

I'm not sure what the problem is. You can either cope with the fact that GW employees have to do their job, or you can't. It's not like they aren't humans or hobbyists themselves.

Are you saying that some of your mates got fired, or are you upset that they have to do their job and can't stand around talking about hobby with you all day? I don't know about GW stores in the rest of the world but they don't seem to have that problem over here... they aren't pushy sellers, like 'would you like fries with that?' It's not like you're ever going to buy something you don't want anyway, and it'd be a fool's errand to try to pull it off, not to mention terrible customer service in general. If they are doing that at your local store then they're not going to do particularly well for themselves. I'm pretty sure that part of their job is establishing rapport with regular customers (note; "customers") so if you're going in to crack jokes about their 'sales tactics' then you're pretty much actively disrupting their attempts to communicate with you on a human level. At that point even I'd be of the mindset, "Buy something or get out". Just because they work there it doesn't make them into little sales robots, and just because they approach you (once again, doing their job) it doesn't mean you have to have a great chat with them - "Just having a look thanks, I know the hobby pretty well".

I talk to GW staff about hobby when I feel like it, and I don't get all cut up when they mention a release I've already heard of, or ask what I'm working on and make suggestions for purchases. The reasons they do it are pretty obvious, but then again the GW staff I've gotten to know are aware of the fact that I'm up-to-and-ahead-of-date. The stores clearly weren't as viable when it was the neckbeard's club, and I actually think they've gotten a lot better since they did the big shake-up of staff. There are significantly less weirdos in the GW stores around my local area these days.

We're clearly of different opinions.

Really the best part of Games Workshop is that there games survive the test of time. They make a product that has defined an industry, while it might not be the best rules, best minis, or best competition, it will be there after you take a break for 8 years. That is something special in the hobby gaming industry.

Yup, I agree with Arctik there, my local store despite getting even smaller thanks to a location change has always been pretty good. The staff there are interested and enthusiastic, not too pushy, and willing to talk for awhile about any part of the hobby. Honestly, when I go in, I've usually got a purchase in mind, and I just make a point of engaging them first, that way, their mindset becomes 'great, finally a customer I dont 'have' to sell too'

Give them a break, in all honesty, how would most of us deal with a job where ninety percent of the customers were people like us or annoying little kids!

Jihadnik wrote:Give them a break, in all honesty, how would most of us deal with a job where ninety percent of the customers were people like us or annoying little kids!

I spend much of my time in my real job dealing with little kids and I think customers like me would be a dream to work with. Honestly, it's not hard to exercise the barest bit of empathy and try to relate to customers, as opposed to just asking them to buy moar please.

JOHIRA wrote:

Jihadnik wrote:Give them a break, in all honesty, how would most of us deal with a job where ninety percent of the customers were people like us or annoying little kids!

I spend much of my time in my real job dealing with little kids and I think customers like me would be a dream to work with. Honestly, it's not hard to exercise the barest bit of empathy and try to relate to customers, as opposed to just asking them to buy moar please.

Your description does not match the GW employees I am familiar with. This must be why I keep hearing such bad things about American GW in general, and why Tom Kirby had to move to Baltimore and kick their arses into shape. Do you go to GW stores in Japan or are you native to somewhere else?

You seem to be ignoring the point that all good retail employees exercise empathy and try to relate to customers (unless, of course, those customers are not suitable to relate to). I'm sorry if they employ retards over there; I really am. You should ship over 'ere to the good side of the world and give it a crack!

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Your description does not match the GW employees I am familiar with.

And this does not make my description wrong. Nor does it indicate any kind of failing in my personality, as you tried to imply with BrookM.

This must be why I keep hearing such bad things about American GW in general, and why Tom Kirby had to move to Baltimore and kick their arses into shape. Do you go to GW stores in Japan or are you native to somewhere else?

I'm a native of the US, living in Japan, going to GW shops in Japan.

The funny thing is, even the independent retailer I went to in Osaka didn't have the problems I see in GWs. It's not a Japanese thing, it's definitely a culture in the company.

You seem to be ignoring the point that all good retail employees exercise empathy and try to relate to customers (unless, of course, those customers are not suitable to relate to).

No, that's my entire point. I'm not asking for GW employees to do anything out of the ordinary. I'm asking them to uphold the basic level of customer service we demand from other stores. If we have GW stores that can't meet that standard (and while it's nice you have a GW store that does meet that standard, it's clear from listening to many GW customers that your case is not universal) then that is a serious problem for GW. Contrary to the title of the thread, they are indeed that bad. Now, they do have some points in their favor. They are not the worst company ever. They aren't Greyhound Busline bad. They aren't putting cadmium in drinkware. They aren't selling weapons to terrorists. But they are doing customer service badly. The fact that they can do a couple things right does not mitigate that.

GW and FW customer service is outstanding. Every issue I've ever had was resolved with 100% satisfaction.

At Mt Gravatt, I usually buy things every so often. even if it's just a pot of paint.

it's out of respect that you buy something, if you're gonna patronize a store. how cheapskate is it to go to a store, use their recources and then leave without even so much as a single item bagged.

Now, if any of you have run a business, you could understand it. it's like "Can I use your phone?" and then not even offering to pay for the call.

And as for this

HOWDYDEECANUPLZBUYMYEXPENSIVEMODELKIT? ITREALLYCOOLLOOKTHERESALITTLELIGHTSHININGOUTOFTHEMIDDLE. SOYOUWANTFIVE?

I've never really experienced this. I've had the 'have you seen these models? they're rather cool.' and 'if you're buying this, have you thought about that?' and, on the contrary, I've had excellent advise with my new bretonnians, I've had a test game to see how the list works, [if anyone was there, the game with stealth cloaked nights.] and a bit of (albeit useless) painting advice.

Wolfun wrote:You've never had to claim anything back on insurance, have you?

I have had to make an insurance claim yes. But I can't see the relevance in this case, the service GW offer through high pricing is not at all equivalent to insurance. When you buy something in a shop you are always covered by consumer law, you should never expect to pay more just to have your basic rights honoured. GW have to abide by the same laws as all the smaller wargames companies who produce much cheaper models. All you achieve by paying more is help compensate *them* for the occasional mistake, it should make no difference to the service you receive which is laid down in law.

Basically the argument from timetowaste85 is that high GW prices are partly justified because they are good enough correct their own mistakes (ie replace damaged and miscast kits) when they arise, even though they have to do this by law. Bizarre. GW have him suckered, he's happily paying extra for something that the law already gives him. Put is this way, if GW or anyone else refused to replace a damaged or miscast model then you'd call trading standards.

JOHIRA wrote: I get tired of getting hit up to buy the latest release/overpriced hobby tool/scenery completely irrelevant to my army/pot of paint every single time I set foot in the store.

I don't what it is but I never get this.

I was in on Friday.

Staffer "Buying some paint?"
Me "Yup"
Staffer "What are you painting?"
Me "Guardsmen."
Staffer "Need anything else?"
Me "Nope, this is everything."
Staffer "That was easy"
Me "Have a good day."
Staffer "You too."

Not so hard, is it?

If they're offering you random stuff that isn't appropriate to you, they're not doing their job very well. However if they're not offering you stuff, they're not doing their job. It's a tricky one to balance and with the shake up they've had this year, people are still getting used to how things are now.

As someone said previously, if you don't want something, it's really not hard to politely decline. If they're offering you something you've no interest in, it's easy enough to politely inform them it's of no interest to you.

Now I know I may be coming from a biased direction here, but I'll add my comments to what I like about GW. Well, I both like and hate this, every couple of months they discover more and more ways to make me go "OOOH SHINY!" and hand more of my wages back to them. I got into the hobby as a spotty faced teenager, and 13 years down the line they can still grab my attention with awesome new models, and I also like the cross-section of people I get to meet in the store.

The biggest problem I have with the local GW store is that the rules get played a little wonky from time to time. Strange things like artillery can not be killed only the firing model are stuff like that.

ewwww this is a tough one. It's like loving the crack but hating the dealer but liking him anyway because hey at least he's around.

GW's brand extremism is good for their business, what is good for their business is good for the hobby in general, and also bad for it. Miniatures Wargaming wont ever change to GW gaming because a few purists will always hold fast, but they definitely have a brand name advantage. Nobody goes to a large con event and expects to find a game of Chainmail or AD&D Battlesystem on a competative tournament level. The proliferation of tournament play and such has led to the stuff I call the "GW METHOD".

When my brother was running a tourney at the GW Bunker last month I sat in with him, and I saw the scoring sheet for the painting judges. When there is even a GW method for judging something as abstract and aesthetic as a paintjob you can tell some people are just a little too far into hitting that crackpipe. They are measuring and dividing half a milligram of rock found in the carpet and arguing over who got the bigger hit.

I could go down their checklist meticulously adhering to every criteria for a point and end up painting the most god awful figure in the world that is just a hideous eyesore to look at, and score all but one of 40 or so points (something subjective like 'is the overall model pleasing'... one which I could even argue if I wanted).

Making lots of rules attracts people who are very into rules. Some people are very into rules. Some people are TOO into rules. They tend to be douchebags. GW made a rule to be able to kick you out. GW will not kick you out if they aren't busy, unless you are a douchebag. Now they have an excuse, so they don't have to say "You have to leave because you annoy everyone", they can say it is because you aren't buying anything. Plenty of people hang out at GW stores who have the tact to know when to shut up and stay out of an employees way when he is WORKING trying to get a 10 yr old into the hobby with his hovering parent watching over his shoulder and eyeing the prices with distaste.

Some people who are frequent store-flies are very tactful and know when to stay out of the way. They usually aren't asked to leave unless it's insanely busy, in which case they probably figured it out for themselves and don't need to be asked. Other trolls being asked to leave is because they are just not funpeople. Nobody wants to be on the clock for 8 hours and stuck on a slow day having to talk to some horrendous boor who bugs the hell out of them who isn't even a customer. "Buy something or leave" is really saying "SHUT UP DUDE YOU ANNOY THE PISS OUT OF ME!"

more power to em. Even the rules lawyers can't argue with it.

To be fair: The painting standard that GW uses for tournaments is not too dissimilar to what is used for other tournaments/organized play.

Let's see...

1) I could go upstairs, right now and grab one of my armies, then walk the 5 minutes to my local GW Store (yeah, I'm lucky in that respect) and know with relative certainty I'll be able to get a game of whatever I've brought (hell, thanks to the combined efforts of the Manager and I, this now extends to War Of The Ring).

2) I know that if I buy something from GW, it's up to the task. Paint, brushes, glue, tools, brushes. Are they the best quality? I dunno, but suffice to say the quality is good enough that I've not had to look elsewhere. Make of that what you will.

3) They have a range of novels which reflect various styles of background. Currently enjoying the latest Ciaphas Cain novel. Love those ones!

4) I actually feel support by the company as a Hobbyist. I can walk into any store, and get advice on a project. I know I am welcome in their stores, and can chat to their staff about hobby related goodness.

5) Within their own stores, you don't really find a clique of gamers who demand things be done their way. Sure there are people seemingly always in there, but to find it being run 'by the vets' is increasingly rare.

So yeah, all things that other Wargames Manufacturers do not, or in many cases, cannot offer due to a lack of their own stores. As a comparisson, I spent quite a lot of money this year on GW products, and am happy to do so because I enjoy the hobby, and I know beyond shadow of a doubt I will get my monies worth out of them, due to the large community in my area. Other games however are more of a risk, as whilst I'm happy to spend whatever on my army, I'm not too keen on procuring and painting a new range, just to find others don't take to it and I wind up out of partners, or worse, a limited range of gamers to play against.

^ thats it.

I frequent three different GW stores (Oxford Street & Covent Garden in London, plus Bluewater in Kent, and have been into several more. Maidstone, Canterbury, Lakeside) as well as several independent stockists, most notably Dark Sphere under Waterloo several times.

No-one in a GW store has ever been rude to me, which is a lot more than I can say for Sainsbury's, Tesco, PC World, my local comic shop, numerous clothes shops and department stores. Everyone says you should expect politeness, but you don't actually get it everywhere. At GW, I have always been treated politely. I have had people check whether I want anything else, such as glue or paints, and sometimes even actually reminded me I do need more, and someone try to get me to buy Valkyries when they came out in plastic, and Garro on CD when he saw me looking at the other printed HH books, but never anything rude or that I could not say "no thanks" to. I have had numerous pleasant discussions about the hobby, and am almost always asked what armies I am collecting. Staff have been enthusiastic to see final painted or converted models once I am done with what I am buying, and have responded very appreciatively when I have noticed models they have painted in the display case that I particularly like. At GW Bluewater, the manager (Darren) even recognised me as a semi-regular from sixteen years previously when he used to manage the Maidstone store, and I remembered him too. We must have been chatting for a good hour, after I had already paid for my goods. Makes me go back there all the more.

I am not sure I love the company HQ, but by god, the staff in the stores have never once let me down.

Fifty, if you've ever been into the Tunbridge Wells Store, it is entirely possible we have crossed paths.

Actually, that is one I have never been in. My parents live in Medway, so the Maidstone store was my closest growing up, most of my family used to live in Canterbury, so I used to stop in there, I now live in London, so Bluewater is between my flat and my parents' house, and I live just off the District and Central lines, to I can get to the Oxford Street and Covent Garden stores easily. Tunbridge is just... meh

Has an awesome pub as well you know!

I think Mr Mystery's post actually serves to highlight the largest shortcoming of GW, and serves as a useful contrast;

Mr Mystery wrote:Let's see...

1) I could go upstairs, right now and grab one of my armies, then walk the 5 minutes to my local GW Store (yeah, I'm lucky in that respect) and know with relative certainty I'll be able to get a game of whatever I've brought (hell, thanks to the combined efforts of the Manager and I, this now extends to War Of The Ring).

2) I know that if I buy something from GW, it's up to the task. Paint, brushes, glue, tools, brushes. Are they the best quality? I dunno, but suffice to say the quality is good enough that I've not had to look elsewhere. Make of that what you will.

3) They have a range of novels which reflect various styles of background. Currently enjoying the latest Ciaphas Cain novel. Love those ones!

4) I actually feel support by the company as a Hobbyist. I can walk into any store, and get advice on a project. I know I am welcome in their stores, and can chat to their staff about hobby related goodness.

5) Within their own stores, you don't really find a clique of gamers who demand things be done their way. Sure there are people seemingly always in there, but to find it being run 'by the vets' is increasingly rare.

So yeah, all things that other Wargames Manufacturers do not, or in many cases, cannot offer due to a lack of their own stores. As a comparisson, I spent quite a lot of money this year on GW products, and am happy to do so because I enjoy the hobby, and I know beyond shadow of a doubt I will get my monies worth out of them, due to the large community in my area. Other games however are more of a risk, as whilst I'm happy to spend whatever on my army, I'm not too keen on procuring and painting a new range, just to find others don't take to it and I wind up out of partners, or worse, a limited range of gamers to play against.

Of his 5 points, 3 are directly related to the GW retail stores (and their convenient proximity). Now, when I lived in Manhattan, near GW's 8th street store, I might have held the same opinion, but having since moved away, I've realized that, while I no longer benefit from the variety of services offered at their retail stores, I still pay for them. We all pay for them, in the form of a increased prices at all levels for all products.

This is related to point 2 of course: brushes, tools, glue, all of these things are priced higher then comparable alternatives to support the GW retail edifice.

Paint and brushes that comes with an instructor in how to paint, kits that come with a playing space and help understanding how to put them together are, of course, worth more then those same paints, brushes and kits on their own: but they go for the same price in the retail store or your FLGS or Online (theoretically).

Thus, (one of) GW's greatest strengths is also its greatest weaknesses: the retail outlets allow for a community to be formed, for people new to the table-top hobby to be brought in with relative ease, and creates in those people an impression that GW is the hobby. At the same time, the overhead on these retail outlets affects the bottom line of the company, and the costs must be made up through increased prices at all levels*.

* There is, of course, supposition here, since I do not have access to the minutia of financial breakdown in order to state all this without reservation. It's based on the simple (perhaps too simple) notion that if GW's prices are higher then it's competitors, that the point of difference in costs is what explains the difference in price. All such companies have 3 costs; 1) design, 2) manufacture, 3) distribution to which GW adds a 4th) retail overhead (staff, rent, utilities and so on). Is it possible that GW's retail outlets are self-sufficient? Possible certainly, but in a way that would almost be worse: their retail outlets do provide a great deal of service and are certainly vital to nurturing and bringing people into the TTG hobby, so in a way one can almost rationalize paying more on a per model basis for that. If the retail outlets are paying for themselves, then GW is charging more just because they feel they can.

The price you pay in any store is part and parcel of keeping them open, regardless of who runs it.

As for the financial impact, GW is a profitable company, so the stores are clearly doing their job. Yet other companies charge similar amounts, with no chance of anything like the convenience and benefit of having a store just round the corner. What's their excuse?

HI all.
In comparison to NOTHING or GW , GW is not that bad .
(And as many have NOTHING to compare GW to thats why they choose GW)

Compared to other companies products GW just isnt good enough value for money for me.
But I dont NEED to play in a GW store.(I have multiple alternative locations...)

So I dont buy into the limited 'GW hobby' tm.
But I am happily involved in the wider table top minatures games hobby.

TTFN

Word

Lanrak, has it ever crossed your mind that some have indeed tried other games, and preferred GW games?

Buzzsaw wrote:* There is, of course, supposition here, since I do not have access to the minutia of financial breakdown in order to state all this without reservation. It's based on the simple (perhaps too simple) notion that if GW's prices are higher then it's competitors, that the point of difference in costs is what explains the difference in price.

That's only true if the GW stores are significantly less efficient than independent stores. When you buy at an indy store you're still paying for the store.

I usually dont have a problem with the staff. I actually sold one of the staff members my old sisters for some guard. She was very nice about it.

Its the old patron though. The guys who play blood bowl, 40k fantasy. They are the mean ones.

Happygrunt wrote:
Its the old patron though. The guys who play blood bowl, 40k fantasy. They are the mean ones.

Funny. That's like a quarter of the people here.

My local shop in Canterbury has always had good staff, contary to many peoples pushy sales persons experiences i have had an experience quite opposite to that. i walked in to buy some of the latest flavour of the month army stuff and was talked OUT of buying it and into consolidating my current army. i think that sort of service should be expected by people and if it is not supplied then the sales tactics are wrong

I like them. Nice quality paints. Excellent brushes. Beautiful models. They're great. GW is as close to perfect as I could imagine....Except for that whole price thing. I really wish they'd just make everything a bit cheaper.
My dream GW-
Paint pots- $1.99
Metal singles- $4.99
Set of ten plastics- $20.00
Transports- $15.00
Tanks- $20.00
Big stuff- $30.00

I've been told things were this cheap not too long ago. Something about two rhinos for 15 bucks or something like that. Man, what I wouldn't give to have played 20 years ago. I could have bought Chaos- Squats and sold them on ebay for 45$

They're very nice. I've never gone to an official GW store- the closest one for me is Chicago, I believe- but their email and phone customer service is top-notch. The community is nice, and the game is fun. I don't play tournaments, so I don't have very many problems with the rules. There are some that make you scratch your head and say "Wait, their ride blows up with them inside, and they are hardly scratched?", but it is easy to logic out why they'd do it.

Well, if you are discussing GW stores, then I can't really comment. There aren't any here, and I can't say that I would give them my patronage if they were as it seems most of what they have offer over the LFGSs holds no value to me.

If you are discussing the company as a whole, the only things I can offer in their favor are that I love the fluff, I feel that they produce excellent quality in their models, and that if there is a problem with a model kit, they take care of it quickly and with far less burden to the purchaser than most companies. I'll leave out all the negative stuff as it is not the point of the thread, and considering it's still the main game system I play, the positives are pretty strong for me.

Considering all they do for my FLGS (which does everything, Card games, LAN parties, board games and war games), they take care of prizes for Tourneys, even send in "Black Box" goodies that are early releases, use our store as a location for sectionals for 'Ard Boyz and pretty much help that sotre stay afloat, I appreciate everything they do. Am I thrilled about the prices (A single Ogryn is $20!! Are they high?!)? Hell no. Will I continue to purchase products from them? An emphatic yes!

A single ogryn is 20$. but how many are you taking? 5?

Episode 50 of World's End Radio did a whole 2+ hour show about the good/bad of GW. Range of discussion included plastic kits, pricing, retail stores and staff etc etc. Was pretty informative as two of the dudes hosting the podcast used to work for GW in Australia, so it was a unique perspective(for me at least). I believe the verdict from the hosts was "GW isn't so bad"(paraphrasing and stealing from thread title). It was good listening as they brought up great points on the good and bad.

Great podcast.

Hi, Mr Mystery.
I LIKE some GW games alot. (Blood Bowl, is brilliant IMO.)
And I am aware that GW write the rules of 40k and WHFB to appeal to a specific demoghraphic.
So those that fall into GW specific demoghraphic WILL prefer thier core games to others ...

However, those gamers who want well defined elegant rules,that allow balanced tactical gameplay , and collectors who want good value for money .
Do NOT fall into this demoghraphic.

I did say MANY not ALL.
And MANY GW customers are indoctrinated into the GW Hobby (tm) in GW stores , and ARE isolated from the wider table top wargames hobby.

IF GW was as good as they would have you belive.They would be able to compete in the open market.
They wouldnt need to operate the chain of B&M stores to isolate thier customers from better value for money alternatives would they?

And the cost of runnning the B &M stores makes up over 50 % of thier overheads.
So for people making full use of the GW stores the incresed mark up may be seen to be fair.
But why should customers NOT using the GW stores have to pay 2 times as much for stuff?

The free brainwashing, er, I mean free painting, free Game, free minature, free hobby advice.
Is NOT free. Everyone is paying a premium for those people who use GW B&M stores.

And as far as sending out free replacements for defective items.
Its CHEAPER than instigating beter quality control.

Remember the cost of the item to GW , is a TINY FRACTION of the retail price.(Usualy less than 1/6).

GW does a very good job of recruiting new long term wargamers -collectors who then move on to better value for money alternatives.
They sort out the wheat from the chaff.
And then let the wheat move on to other companies....

This is why GW is not so bad.
It recruits gamers for all the other companies out there , god bless 'em!
And GW customer pay for this, god bless you too!

Merry Christmas and Happy new year.

Lanrak wrote:

GW does a very good job of recruiting new long term wargamers -collectors who then move on to better value for money alternatives.
They sort out the wheat from the chaff.
And then let the wheat move on to other companies....

This is why GW is not so bad.
It recruits gamers for all the other companies out there , god bless 'em!
And GW customer pay for this, god bless you too!

Merry Christmas and Happy new year.

Merry Christmas to you too!

This actually reminds me of a quote from a FLGS owner I knew in the Seattle area: "GW is good at two things; Getting people into the hobby, and ticking people off!"

As I read through the thread, I can't help but notice a lot of the negative feeling toward the company is a result of bad experiences in their stores, and to a lesser extent the high prices. I think that what we are seeing is that the quality of the staff at GW stores can be very hit or miss, and that our individual personalities can have a major impact on how we perceive GW sales tactics (and NO, just because you find their tactics offensive doesn't make you "stunted" ). My feeling is that the GW stores can be a really good thing, as they increase the exposure people have to the hobby and provide a nurturing environment for new hobbyists. The prices are what they are; they are high, and prevent me from buying as much as I would like, but not high enough to prevent me from buying at all. That these prices are being used to finance their retail stores is not a huge deal for me, as I think those stores go a long way towards establishing the community everyone has talked about.

I think that, overall, GW is a "good" company, in the sense that they provide me with things I value (a fun game, cool models, a community to play with, interesting background, etc).

The models for the most part keep getting better and better.

I was putting together the Plauge Furnace on Christmas Day, and its a wonderful model, brilliantly designed.

Things like the Skaven pulling the Furnace itself, are perfectly cut to come together with the ropes. In what at first glance on the sprue seems some frankly bizarre cutting decesions for the model.

Makes me wonder what we are going to get in the future, the next chariot for example to get the plastic treatment should be interesting. Will they finally have the means to include the reigns to the steeds/creatures pulling it?

Well I think GW has been doing the best they can. Sure the models have become really expensive(three metal IG 8 dollars, today 3 metal IG 15, thats almost double?!) but thats life, everything else in general is getting more expensive too. That being said,I will say that their customer support and website have come along way and are both really good. When I first started 13yrs ago they had very little customer support and there website was pretty bare bones, very little hobby support lol. The models have come a long way too. The new plastic kits and better detailing and scaling make for some really cool models. The better models with better hobby support have made 40k a lot more accessible I think. Best example of this is how the my local gaming community has changed, went from bunch of old guys with ponytails and myself(12yr kid/dork) playing with stubby little 80's/90's models in small obscure comic stores, flash forward to present day community, players of various ages and back grounds, good looking models, hobby specific stores. GW needs to keep on doing what there doing. Maybe one day we'll see the 3 IG for 8 again

Lanrak wrote:However, those gamers who want well defined elegant rules,that allow balanced tactical gameplay , and collectors who want good value for money .
Do NOT fall into this demoghraphic.

In what way do you feel the need to insult people that like GW games or products? If you don't like them, that's fine. But please don't belittle anyone else because of their choice of games.

Indeed.

I think most of their employees are ace however their random price increases that are not in line with inflation, or follow an increase in production quality are outrageous. I also hate the shift of focus from adults to kids. I hate any other kids other than my own and my nephew!

Captain Solon wrote:A single ogryn is 20$. but how many are you taking? 5?

I was considering, but that's a bit too much for me.

Ed_Bodger wrote:I think most of their employees are ace however their random price increases that are not in line with inflation, or follow an increase in production quality are outrageous. I also hate the shift of focus from adults to kids. I hate any other kids other than my own and my nephew!

There's more to price rises than mere inflation. Minimum Wage goes up, rents go up, insurance (generally) goes up, staffing levels go up, cost of raw materials go up (and sometimes down) and so on. Inflation is a prediction as far as I understand it!

No I disagree having studied GW's financial figures as part of my masters they are trying to cut costs in every area of their organisation. Their price increases have nothing to do with reaction to cost increases and everything to do with trying to sell their product at the highest price the market will stomach.

Klawz wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:
Its the old patron though. The guys who play blood bowl, 40k fantasy. They are the mean ones.

Funny. That's like a quarter of the people here.

Its not that they play those games, its that they played them for longer, and think they are better then the rest of us. Just because they can recall 2 editions back, when most of my friends started at the end of 4th, dosen't make anyone better then anyone else. That, and they are the super tournament nuts who are no fun to play against.

Ed_Bodger wrote:No I disagree having studied GW's financial figures as part of my masters they are trying to cut costs in every area of their organisation. Their price increases have nothing to do with reaction to cost increases and everything to do with trying to sell their product at the highest price the market will stomach.

Which is different from pretty any other company ever conceived how?

Mr Mystery wrote:The price you pay in any store is part and parcel of keeping them open, regardless of who runs it.

As for the financial impact, GW is a profitable company, so the stores are clearly doing their job. Yet other companies charge similar amounts, with no chance of anything like the convenience and benefit of having a store just round the corner. What's their excuse?

Your premise is flawed: while there are no doubt competitors that do not offer superior value, I am referring to competitors that provide superior value for money spent. Put another way, competitors that provide comparable product for cheaper prices.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:* There is, of course, supposition here, since I do not have access to the minutia of financial breakdown in order to state all this without reservation. It's based on the simple (perhaps too simple) notion that if GW's prices are higher then it's competitors, that the point of difference in costs is what explains the difference in price.

That's only true if the GW stores are significantly less efficient than independent stores. When you buy at an indy store you're still paying for the store.

As I pointed out in the paragraph following that statement, on the off chance that GW's retail outlets are self-sufficient, it makes their pricing even more egregious. Beyond that, I would argue it's very difficult to imagine that GW's retail outlets are individually self-sufficient; they labor under a number of problems that an independent retail store simply does not. They have absolute restraints on the products they can sell (how many gaming stores are able to turn a small amount of counter space into a valuable sales spot for highly profitable food and drink, or CCGs, or other products that GW stores simply cannot sell?), they have to devote no small amount of their floor space to non-retail use and, to my knowledge, they do not have individual flexibility on their hours of operation.

A number of people seem to have misconstrued my point, or have brought up what is a counter-point: that GW is not so bad, because for one thing they do X, where X is going some extra mile, above and beyond. Owing to the fact that they do X, the fact their prices are quite high can be forgiven.

To which I propose: what if instead of doing X, GW just lowered their prices? You see, the problem with saying their prices can be forgiven because they go the extra mile in a) their stores or b) select other retail outlets, is that people that buy their products through c) not-so-favored retail outlets or d) on-line retailers, are paying a premium price, but not getting the same premium service.

Perhaps my local store is simply unlucky with their GW rep, perhaps I am the type of person that simply doesn't care about frills, and just focuses on the bottom line: the prices on their product are too high, in my way of estimation.

Mr Mystery wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote:No I disagree having studied GW's financial figures as part of my masters they are trying to cut costs in every area of their organisation. Their price increases have nothing to do with reaction to cost increases and everything to do with trying to sell their product at the highest price the market will stomach.

Which is different from pretty any other company ever conceived how?

Not to be pedantic, but you do realize that the rationalization "everyone else is doing it" even if true (and I disagree that it is true), wouldn't make it laudable, right?

*Some people have also brought up the quality of their rules, to which I will only remark that they are doing much better. Whether their efforts are actually adequate, is an entirely different matter. Once again, this is an area where they have far to go to be the equal of some of their competitors.

Buzzsaw wrote:As I pointed out in the paragraph following that statement, on the off chance that GW's retail outlets are self-sufficient, it makes their pricing even more egregious. Beyond that, I would argue it's very difficult to imagine that GW's retail outlets are individually self-sufficient; they labor under a number of problems that an independent retail store simply does not. They have absolute restraints on the products they can sell (how many gaming stores are able to turn a small amount of counter space into a valuable sales spot for highly profitable food and drink, or CCGs, or other products that GW stores simply cannot sell?), they have to devote no small amount of their floor space to non-retail use and, to my knowledge, they do not have individual flexibility on their hours of operation.

Good analysis.

I would add that the prices may be a contributing factor in other problems the company has. Because prices are high, the models do not "sell themselves" as it were. So they have to put pressure on their store employees to push the models hard in order to make up the difference. Now some store employees can do this without creating an obnoxious environment. But as we've seen, many can't. And really, while a bit better training from GW may be in order, we shouldn't expect people to be able to push product hard while simultaneously making the experience fun for customers. They're two completely different social skills, in some ways at odds with each other. I know this from my own experience.

So taking the prices down a bit would ease some of the pressure on selling individual models. Yes, the store staff have to sell more stuff to make up the difference, but if selling more is easier, that shouldn't be a problem, especially if the staff are then freed to make the products fun for everyone.

I really love how so many experts here could do a better job at running a company than those running the market leader in its sector. You may not like the company, but it is obviously not bad at what it does.

Happygrunt wrote:That, and they are the super tournament nuts who are no fun to play against.

Some of my best games have been against vets.

usually, however, 'vets' keep to themselves and don't let anyone else play them. it makes it increasingly difficult to get games against experienced players.

However, usually they're helpful, and I respect them. really I've only ever had two or three primadonna vets. though, PWFF (play-to-win-and-forget-the-fun-aspect) tournament players deserve to have 'TFG' written on their forhead in indellable ink

JOHIRA wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:As I pointed out in the paragraph following that statement, on the off chance that GW's retail outlets are self-sufficient, it makes their pricing even more egregious. Beyond that, I would argue it's very difficult to imagine that GW's retail outlets are individually self-sufficient; they labor under a number of problems that an independent retail store simply does not. They have absolute restraints on the products they can sell (how many gaming stores are able to turn a small amount of counter space into a valuable sales spot for highly profitable food and drink, or CCGs, or other products that GW stores simply cannot sell?), they have to devote no small amount of their floor space to non-retail use and, to my knowledge, they do not have individual flexibility on their hours of operation.

Good analysis.

I would add that the prices may be a contributing factor in other problems the company has. Because prices are high, the models do not "sell themselves" as it were. So they have to put pressure on their store employees to push the models hard in order to make up the difference. Now some store employees can do this without creating an obnoxious environment. But as we've seen, many can't. And really, while a bit better training from GW may be in order, we shouldn't expect people to be able to push product hard while simultaneously making the experience fun for customers. They're two completely different social skills, in some ways at odds with each other. I know this from my own experience.

So taking the prices down a bit would ease some of the pressure on selling individual models. Yes, the store staff have to sell more stuff to make up the difference, but if selling more is easier, that shouldn't be a problem, especially if the staff are then freed to make the products fun for everyone.

And now you show your lack of knowledge of working in a GW store. You see, the models do indeed 'sell themselves'. It's a simple premise. There are two reasons a person is in a GW Store. 1. To buy something (kerching) 2. To find out what it is about (kerching). The role of the staff member is to engage with the customer, and figure out what it is they fancy purchasing today. To give you an example, I've managed to turn a £5 sale into a £150 sale more than once, all without pressure. Combination of talking to the kid about 'what he would need' and talking to the parent about 'what this will do for him'.

As for GW stores being more limited than a single FLGS etc... I fail to see how being part of a chain is a bad thing? Barring the odd exception, chain stores very much dominate the world. Why? Because of a plateau of quality and service. GW's have far less fluctuation in these than FLGS. Some FLGS are truly amazing, but others, well there's a reason they don't tend to last long in too many cases.

[quote=Buzzsaw}Not to be pedantic, but you do realize that the rationalization "everyone else is doing it" even if true (and I disagree that it is true), wouldn't make it laudable, right?

Ah Mr Mystery I see where your fervent stance on Games Workshop being awesome comes from: you work for them.

Fantastic, I've just finished writing a 12,000 word paper on why Games Workshop fail to deliver customer value so lets do a little bit of summarising of it and try and relate it to your point of it being good business sense to sell a product at the top level the market will stomach. This is a good policy for increasing short term profits as is Games Workshops preference for targeting children and selling them a starter set we have all seen that good old sales technique get the parent to buy the starter box set lets say AOBR oh but they need a painting starter set and a couple of extra brushes, what's that little snotty wants to paint his space marines an attractive green colour well you will need these extra paints, oh and don't forget to play the game properly, get some good tips on painting and what to collect you need C:SM - we are now on around the £120 mark when all the parent really wanted was to buy the £23 tactical squad and get the hell out of the shop but credit to you 9insert generic GW employee) you have done a good sales job. I imagine during all this patter you have pointed out how much money the customer has saved by buying the starter box/battalion box over buying the models individually. So your customers have left the hobby store with little snotty creaming his pants over his new models and mr/mrs snotty quite pleased that despite spending over £100 they have got a good deal and are now one up over GW because they have saved money (idiots). At this stage we have short term satisfied customer.

Fast forward a bit and that same customer goes to expand their army by adding some individual box sets and now the parent realises exactly how expensive the individual box sets/ paints etc are and unfortunately the ugly little apple of their eye is hooked on this great new hobby and lets give GW employees some credit here - they now have a safe environment to dump the kid for a few hours while they go shopping or create another little snotling etc. You are now in a position where the customer is not feeling too happy as they realise that the high price of the individual models is going to cost them quite a lot more money than they saved in the long term...

Meanwhile once again GW shareholders are telling Tom Kirby and co that they need to cut costs once again as the overheads are unacceptable (please see 2010 GW Chairmans report for confirmation) so once again they cut costs, the plastic supplier is changed to someone who can supply it a bit cheaper, a couple more staff are let go and designers are encouraged to maximise options per spruce to encourage minimal wastage. However Tom has a great idea, lets raise prices again because our 'followers' (quote ibid) will pay pretty much whatever we ask. There is no consideration of the current global recession and the fact that people are trying to cut their costs of living in all areas and certainly in the hobby/luxury goods area (just look at the latest retail figures for Western Europe and North America). So now we are in a situation where veteran gamers, many of whom are married are now faced with increase prices which raises tension with their spouses - not a situation you want your loyal fanbase to be in they are going to buy less. Meanwhile the nice family snot who we began with earlier have come to the realisation that the hobby is just too expensive and suddenly that Xbox 360 with Kineckt looks a hell of lot cheaper and more long masting (after all little snotty is not good at following the rules and painting is just too much trouble). So GW now look for the next customer to start the hobby with. However GW do no external marketing and rely solely on word of mouth or people walking past hobby centres (which due to cost cutting in leasing are no longer located in prime positions) but little snotty is telling people at school that GW is not as good as Xbox and mr and mrs snotty are telling other parents how expensive GW is so the whole word of mouth advertising is going tits up and there is no GW propaganda to stop it.

Winding this down GW are IMO at a tipping point in their approach to business, with little growth in our economy peoples disposable income is on the decline rather than increasing yet still GW increase prices (out of line with inflation) they do pretty much no market research, there are no special offers, no discount on volume and very little communication to customers over anything other than prices or to be released models. This is not good business sense and again in my opinion unless they modify their strategy their long term growth will be massively affected. GW prides itself on being a company that relies on steady growth and as some will no have cleared all their outstanding long term debt and only use a small overdraft facility, however their business is supplying people hobby; their customers want to be loyal but given enough pressure this will cease. Ultimately people will change the supplier of their hobby before the hobby itself.

Well, I was reading it, then you dropped all reason for baseless opinion, showing a rather odd amount of research.

Also, for what it's worth...worked for them. Past tense. Not that it's important by there you go.

How to get someone involved it the hobby, the way I used to do it...

Step 1. Spot new face, approach and make them welcome.

Step 2. Explain a bit about the overall theme of the hobby.

Step 3. Ask if they fancy trying their hand at painting.

Step 4. Model painted (basic level, lesson should take no more than 5 minutes) it's time for a quick intro game. Keep it cinematic now!

Step 5. Game finished, ask if they enjoyed that.

Step 6. Explain what they need to get into the hobby. Introduce bundle set (HSS, Spray and Boxed Game).

At no point do you try to hide the extent of the hobby. This is about getting people into it eyes wide open, not hiding things. So your initial supposition appears inaccurate already, which might I suggest would bring the rest of your paper into dispute. You explain what a Codex is, but point out that the contents of Black Reach etc are enough for now, until you've found out where your tactical fancy lies.

And do you know what? It works. And it works well. Oh the times I'd read online about 2 or 3 people sticking it to the man by 'quitting the hobby' when that very day I'd sold 4 Core Game bundles. Seriously...hard to keep a straight face.

But now on to the rest of your post...

Again, massive massive assumption. ANd not too keen on your description of younger gamers as 'snotty'. The lack of marketing and GW's success speaks volumes. It's all about word of mouth. Get on kid into it, and get him to bring his friends. If you invite them, they will come. BOOM, new mini-hobby community. And as for the recession...so what? Hobbies traditionally do quite well in a recession. Last big one in the UK saw GW do as they are doing now (minus the cost cutting of course) and continuing to expand. Fundamental truth is, if I have less dispoable a month for whatever reason, I want greater value for money from my purchases. And to me at least that very much includes GW. I manage a game at least twice a week, so I do get my monies worth. Others have a different opinion sure, but that doesn't invalidate mine.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd quite like to read this paper you wrote, as I suspect the wording would be rather less emotive. And I'd like to see the research you did as it seems to fly in the face of my experience both as a (former) staff member, and as a long term hobbyist.

You would be very welcome to read it and yes it is written very differently to how I post on the internet. It was based upon a survey of over 1,000 customers from various locations around the UK and interviews with current staff at all levels within GW, plus a little bit of internet research for some international perspectives.

Also I was not talking about hiding the extent of the hobby it is the realisation of the cost of the hobby that causes a shock and leads to a discontinuation of the hobby especially amongst parents.

Mr Mystery wrote:And now you show your lack of knowledge of working in a GW store. You see, the models do indeed 'sell themselves'. It's a simple premise. There are two reasons a person is in a GW Store. 1. To buy something (kerching) 2. To find out what it is about (kerching). The role of the staff member is to engage with the customer, and figure out what it is they fancy purchasing today. To give you an example, I've managed to turn a £5 sale into a £150 sale more than once, all without pressure. Combination of talking to the kid about 'what he would need' and talking to the parent about 'what this will do for him'.

That's all well and good, and I'm happy you were good at your job. But it doesn't have anything at all to do with what I said. If the models truly sold themselves, GW employees would not need to engage the customer. The models would do the job themselves and all you would have to do is stand by the register and wait for the customer to bring up their blister/box.

If you have to engage the customer, the models aren't selling themselves. And while you may have been able to upsell someone £145 once, not every customer is prepared to drop that much in one go. Especially not if the store employee is badgering them about purchases irrelevant to that player's interests, as often happens at GW stores.

Mr Mystery wrote:

JOHIRA wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:As I pointed out in the paragraph following that statement, on the off chance that GW's retail outlets are self-sufficient, it makes their pricing even more egregious. Beyond that, I would argue it's very difficult to imagine that GW's retail outlets are individually self-sufficient; they labor under a number of problems that an independent retail store simply does not. They have absolute restraints on the products they can sell (how many gaming stores are able to turn a small amount of counter space into a valuable sales spot for highly profitable food and drink, or CCGs, or other products that GW stores simply cannot sell?), they have to devote no small amount of their floor space to non-retail use and, to my knowledge, they do not have individual flexibility on their hours of operation.

Good analysis.

I would add that the prices may be a contributing factor in other problems the company has. Because prices are high, the models do not "sell themselves" as it were. So they have to put pressure on their store employees to push the models hard in order to make up the difference. Now some store employees can do this without creating an obnoxious environment. But as we've seen, many can't. And really, while a bit better training from GW may be in order, we shouldn't expect people to be able to push product hard while simultaneously making the experience fun for customers. They're two completely different social skills, in some ways at odds with each other. I know this from my own experience.

So taking the prices down a bit would ease some of the pressure on selling individual models. Yes, the store staff have to sell more stuff to make up the difference, but if selling more is easier, that shouldn't be a problem, especially if the staff are then freed to make the products fun for everyone.

And now you show your lack of knowledge of working in a GW store. You see, the models do indeed 'sell themselves'. It's a simple premise. There are two reasons a person is in a GW Store. 1. To buy something (kerching) 2. To find out what it is about (kerching). The role of the staff member is to engage with the customer, and figure out what it is they fancy purchasing today. To give you an example, I've managed to turn a £5 sale into a £150 sale more than once, all without pressure. Combination of talking to the kid about 'what he would need' and talking to the parent about 'what this will do for him'.

As for GW stores being more limited than a single FLGS etc... I fail to see how being part of a chain is a bad thing? Barring the odd exception, chain stores very much dominate the world. Why? Because of a plateau of quality and service. GW's have far less fluctuation in these than FLGS. Some FLGS are truly amazing, but others, well there's a reason they don't tend to last long in too many cases.

"You see, the models do indeed 'sell themselves'." Indeed. To answer your question about "how being part of a chain is a bad thing", I can only point to my post above, as any explanation is first simply repeating what I wrote.

GW stores are rather interesting, as unlike other company's factory outlets they don't offer the company's goods at a cheaper price, rather they simply pile on more "premium service".

Mr Mystery wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Not to be pedantic, but you do realize that the rationalization "everyone else is doing it" even if true (and I disagree that it is true), wouldn't make it laudable, right?

Laudable? To a business man it is indeed laudable. In the abscence of a Walmart 'pile it high sell it cheap' volume dealing, why in the name of satan's throbbing portion wouldn't you charge what the market will bare? Name me one global company with an entirely philanthropic pricing structure?

I think the biggest problem here is that you need to stop, reread what I wrote, and then read what you wrote. I have said several times now that I am proposing that GW should "stop doing X and Y, and just sell me Y, made cheaper by the absence of X"; you then bring up Walmart and "'pile it high sell it cheap' volume dealing", and then go on to ask "Name me one global company with an entirely philanthropic pricing structure?" Well, at the risk, again, of being pedantic, how about the one you mentioned the sentence before, Walmart?

Remember, I'm in disagreement with your premise that GW's prices are a) representative of the field, and b) "bearable" by the market. Now, this is of course opinion, but all I can say is that I haven't bought GW products at retail prices, for the best of my recollection, perhaps 2, maybe 3 years now. I simply can't justify the price to myself on a per-model basis.

The "'pile it high sell it cheap' volume dealing" style of selling is entirely what I am suggesting is what GW needs to do: you mentioned that "I fail to see how being part of a chain is a bad thing? Barring the odd exception, chain stores very much dominate the world." But they don't dominate the global market simply by virtue of being "chain stores", they dominate because they are able to use the economies of scale and shared promotion to sell a standardized (generally) high quality product at competitive prices. GW stores, by contrast, sell a standardized high-quality product at premium prices.

GW's products are more expensive on a per-model basis than many of their competitors, I don't think there's a huge disagreement on this. Whether or not they claim on their balance sheet, several people in this thread at least have stated that the premiums that GW stores (and Retailer support) makes up for this.

Let's put it another way: GW sells you a model kit, and includes in the price of a painting lesson in the kit's sticker price. All well and good for people that would like a painting lesson, except that once they get the lesson, they're still paying for it, because the price never goes down. And those people that didn't want a painting lesson to start? They're just out of luck then I suppose.

Ed_Bodger wrote:Also I was not talking about hiding the extent of the hobby it is the realisation of the cost of the hobby that causes a shock and leads to a discontinuation of the hobby especially amongst parents.

Really? Maybe the difference in US vs UK. I sell GW to parents by showing how cheap it is compared to all the other stuff they spend money on.

-Art classes at 25.00 a week for a half hour of making a clay ashtray, and 25.00 the next week to paint it.
-Hundreds of dollars a quarter for piano lessons the kid doesn't want to take.
-Sports uniforms and equipment.
-Toys. Holy Emperor, the TOYS! Parents are already spending huge amounts a year on stuff the kids break or don't want.

I have parents that specifically bring in kids to get them into a hobby and off an x-box. They want something to occupy the kids time that isn't a video game or TV, where they actually have to interact with a human being. Wargaming involves reading, math, logic, and problem solving. Painting and modeling teach patience, hand-eye co-ordination, and a number of skills that can be useful down the road.

Compared to what parents are already spending on the kids, and quite possibly getting less out of it, wargaming is actually quite cheap.

Again, might be a UK vs. US thing, as I have no idea what the average parent spends on children over there.

The other thing that always comes to mind when someone complains about the cost of a GW model, is what they would spend the money on other wise? Everyone has a salarly or money coming in, and most of us don't have a thing left at the end of the year, so where'd it go? Want to demoralize someone? Help them with a budget for their yearly expenses and work out what they spend on pizza, cigarettes, gas, coffee, etc. (Beer does not count! Beer is a basic commodity like food, housing, or bacon.) I've got one guy that used to say "I don't have the money to play Warhammer". Turns out Rob worked in the mall, and rather than bring a lunch, ate at the mall twice a day, five days a week, spending 80 bucks a week, and 4000.00 a year. I told him to start packing his lunch and he could afford a new space marine army and a girlfriend on the side.) A starbucks habit is worse.

Everyone earns money, everyone spends money, very few have saving left over, and alot of us accumulate debt on credit cards, cars, and houses. All the money you earn gets spent. Everything is expensive when you look at it's cost per year. Warhammer is just an easy target.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buzzsaw wrote:GW's products are more expensive on a per-model basis than many of their competitors, I don't think there's a huge disagreement on this.

Sorry, but I'll disagree. I would define GW's closest competitiors in the wargaming industry as Warmachine/Hordes, and Flames of War. Both companies have had to raise prices significant'y in the past 5 years. Privateer games take less models to play, but players are constantly buying the new models that come out, to keep up with the game. Privateer responds by making their business model very front end loaded, with constant releases. I've watched 15mm tanks go from 8.00 to 12.00 in the last couple of years. Both companies are moving to doing more with plastic models, following GW's success with them.

There are a lot of other games out there with cheaper models, or companies making cheaper models for use in GW games. But I don't think of them as competition to GW. If they were, I'd be selling a whole lot more of the cheaper alternatives than I do right now.

To Ed_Bodger:

Thank you for posting. I would like to read your work paper as well so I can compare notes on your viewpoint with my own.

can you post up a url on it please?

mikhaila wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buzzsaw wrote:GW's products are more expensive on a per-model basis than many of their competitors, I don't think there's a huge disagreement on this.

Sorry, but I'll disagree. I would define GW's closest competitiors in the wargaming industry as Warmachine/Hordes, and Flames of War. Both companies have had to raise prices significant'y in the past 5 years. Privateer games take less models to play, but players are constantly buying the new models that come out, to keep up with the game. Privateer responds by making their business model very front end loaded, with constant releases. I've watched 15mm tanks go from 8.00 to 12.00 in the last couple of years. Both companies are moving to doing more with plastic models, following GW's success with them.

There are a lot of other games out there with cheaper models, or companies making cheaper models for use in GW games. But I don't think of them as competition to GW. If they were, I'd be selling a whole lot more of the cheaper alternatives than I do right now.

I refute you by emphasis. I would also point out that "many" is not a synonym for "closest", nor 'most', nor 'every' for that matter. Ultimately, ours is a difference not of fact, but of definitions; you acknowledge that there are "games out there with cheaper models, or companies making cheaper models", but prefer not to label them as competitors to GW, whereas I do. Further, since your definition of competition for GW requires that a company "be selling a whole lot more of the cheaper alternatives than [you] do right now", this would seem an insuperable barrier to definitional change, being, as it is, linked not to overall sales globally, regionally or even within an industry or a sub-market within an industry, but within the 4 walls of your establishment. Therefore, in the manner of the season and good Christian generosity of spirit, allow to humbly redefine my statement as follows;

GW's products are more expensive on a per-model basis than some of their competitors, I don't think there's a huge disagreement on this.

In the spirit of such compromise, allow me to ask; do you feel that GW's prices, on their own, reflect adequate value for money? Given the content of your post above (especially the notion that "Compared to what parents are already spending on the kids... wargaming is actually quite cheap"), it would seem in a case of first impression that you do. If so, then we are simply at an impasse, as I do not find their prices, taken on their own, to be adequate for the money, and we are unlikely to convince each other.

Put another way, if I claim that gold is outrageously expensive at $10,000 an ounce, that evaluation is little mollified by the recitation that it is a bargain compared to platinum at $20,000 an ounce.

Ed_Bodger wrote:You would be very welcome to read it and yes it is written very differently to how I post on the internet. It was based upon a survey of over 1,000 customers from various locations around the UK and interviews with current staff at all levels within GW, plus a little bit of internet research for some international perspectives.

Also I was not talking about hiding the extent of the hobby it is the realisation of the cost of the hobby that causes a shock and leads to a discontinuation of the hobby especially amongst parents.

Count me also among those that would be interested in reading your work.

At what point though does an alternative become a competitor? I mean GW are far and away the market leader, with if memory serves, something like 60-70% market share.

Let's take Mantic, a fairly new company. Sure, their models are nice and cheap, and they do indeed have their own rules, but in order to be a genuine competitor to GW's title is going to take a while. PP are indeed going quite well from what I understand, but still have nowhere near the market penetration of GW, and without their own stores are unlikely (as are other companies) to make a serious dent in GW's position.

As has been illustrated already, whether or not you find GW good value is an entirely personal affair. I do, as I have easy access to my local store, and am well known there (being a former staff member). Indeed I once worked out the per-hour cost of my Savage Orcs over a year, allowing time to paint the army, and the amount of games I tend to play a week. Worked out in the region of £3 an hour. And I don't mind telling you that where I live, there is literally nothing else I can do for that sort of price.

I'll illustrate with my current army, Ogre Kingdoms. Comprised of 2 Batallions, 2 Irongut boxes, 3 Rhinoxen, a Tyrant and a Butcher. To buy this off the peg would set you back £269 if I've done my sums right. Now, everything to play with them....measuring tape, rulebook, army book, paints, glues, tools etc. £62.50 for the books, £27 for glue, clipper, files and hobby knife, £7 for dice and measuring tape. Also whack on £12 for two lots of movement trays, and I think we're about there for everything I need to play this army. £377.50 before paints. Now to remember by paint scheme...Spray, 10 different pots, three different brushes...£44.50 to go on top and we're on a round £422.00.

So, I reckon it will take me around 6 hours to paint each horde unit, same for the Rhinox, 3ish per character, and I'm done. So all in...21 hours painting. I usually fit in 2 games a week, each taking up 2.5 hours of my time including set up and packing up on average. So, in the first year of owning this army, including a rough 6 hours of construction (Ogres are simple to build!) and we're on 157 active hours in an average year.

So we now divide the cost, by the time to see the hourly rate...

Rounding up the nearest penny, thats £2.69 per hour. I honestly cannot do anything else locally for that amount. Movies are £9 just to get in, without transport to and from (why it's on the arse end of nowhere in the industrial estate, I will never know) Hell a pint of my favoured Beer runs to £3.10 and that's lucky to last 20 minutes.

So as you can see to me the hobby is excellent value. And if we were to include just the cost of the models in the army (as I had everything else already, and included it to avoid calls of obfuscation) that hourly rate drops to a mere £1.72 per hour. Which is positively a bargain in my book.

Hence why I continue in this hobby. Sure, my next planned army (Vampires with lots of Skeletons for that Harryhausen feel) isn't going to be cheap (I want 3 units of 40 Skellies, at £15 for 10) but as I know I'll get my monies worth out of them, I'm not fussed by the price. Your experience might well differ, but you can hardly fault my logic.

Not sure about everyone else here, but personally speaking, if I have to start working out a cost per hour figure for every single activity to judge whether it is 'worth' doing or cost effective, kind of misses the point.

Just to be devils advocate: drawing is an excellent hobby. I bought a box pencils for a dollar and spent 200 hours on a drawing. the guy who sold me the paper should have charged me $500 by that logic and I still would have gotten good value for my money.

No, but then the guy selling you the paper likely doesn't design, manufacture and sell it all himself.

And depending on what medium of art you practice, it can be very expensive in terms of materials. Also worth re-reading my post, specifically the part about why I find it good value.

Also filbert, the cost per hour thing came up a while back, originally on Warseer as a way of explaining why I don't whinge about the price as long as I continue to see value in what I'm buying.

Mr Mystery wrote:No, but then the guy selling you the paper likely doesn't design, manufacture and sell it all himself.

And depending on what medium of art you practice, it can be very expensive in terms of materials.

Also filbert, the cost per hour thing came up a while back, originally on Warseer as a way of explaining why I don't whinge about the price as long as I continue to see value in what I'm buying.

I understand the logic; the point I am trying to make is that totting up a cost per hour value for every leisure activity in order to somehow determine what is 'better' based on a monetary value, is simply not a valid or fair comparison - GW/war gaming in particular would always score well because of the time taken to paint which skews the value.

This argument seems to crop up time and time again. Bottom line is that different people have different criteria for what they consider to be value for money. It really is an arbitrary thing.

Which is my point exactly. Cost and value are two seperate things entirely.

Hence why I am looking at shelling out new Larping kit this year, despite only doing it annually. I enjoy it, and fit in..erm....72 hours in that one event, so no beef from myself chucking £300 on kit. Spesh if I buy carefully and choose items I can use again should my character get slotted.

So in essence, to make any kind of empirical statement that GW charges too much is a bit untrue. Sure, you personally might find it hard to justify the £422 I mentioned, but to me, I find it an agreeable price. I could get it cheaper of course, but again I choose to pay where I play, so that's a further cost I choose to bare.

To all those who wanted to read the paper I submit it on the 4th January and get it back some time towards the end of February I would be more than happy for you to see it after it is marked but I am not allowed to publish it before hand (part of the exam board rules) so as soon as I get it back it is all your for the reading.

Groovy. Let me know via PM when it's available!

Buzzsaw wrote:In the spirit of such compromise, allow me to ask; do you feel that GW's prices, on their own, reflect adequate value for money? Given the content of your post above (especially the notion that "Compared to what parents are already spending on the kids... wargaming is actually quite cheap"), it would seem in a case of first impression that you do. If so, then we are simply at an impasse, as I do not find their prices, taken on their own, to be adequate for the money, and we are unlikely to convince each other.

I would say that it does. And it would seem that the vast majority of people playing wargames agree.

Buzzsaw wrote:Put another way, if I claim that gold is outrageously expensive at $10,000 an ounce, that evaluation is little mollified by the recitation that it is a bargain compared to platinum at $20,000 an ounce.

Surely there are only three ways of establishing the "value" of something:
1. Market Value - what people are prepared to pay. On this basis it's doing fine.
2. Comparison to similar products. On this basis too, it's not too bad. (even compared to Mantic, the all plastic infantry isn't that much cheaper whilst having much less variety. The metal/plastic hybrid kits like cavalry are more expensive than GW's metal/plastic cavalry and much more expensive than the all plastic cavalry) Warmachine models are way more expensive than most 40K minis. A 40K army costs more but the cost per mini is dramatically lower.
3. Personal Value - how much you feel it's worth to you.

You've already decide to discount the first and second options, leaving only the third which is entirely subjective.

I can't say that I have much experience with GW personally, other than customer support.

And I along with 2 others at least from the FLGS have had some problems, and GW resolved the problems without hassle. Hard to get that from any other company in any reasonable time.

I can get over the fact that it costs me $25 dollars for 10 guys, because I will spend 8 hours putting them together and painting them. That along is worth the money. Then the countless amount of hours they will die on the table (guardsman are squishy).

At least GW can keep the shelves stocked. The FLGS can't get any more Warmachine because PP is so backordered, it will be months before he gets what he wants in orders, losing him hundreds in sales. At least with GW he can order it Tuesday and it will be in the store Friday, waiting for you to pick up.

I just wish that they would add more variety to the guard. The Catachans are a pain in the butt to put to put together, and the Cadians are too common on the table. And as much as I like the forgeworld models, they just don't really fit in well with my tastes.

quick edit here:
I wonder how many of you that have complained about their sales staff have any experience actually selling to people in a retail setting. Stores have quotas, and it is the sales staff's job to meet those. Sure the great salespeople can take a $5 dollar sale and turn into a $100 dollars. I had one lady come in for a lei and I got her to walk out in $50 dollars in candy, and a few decorations. On a slow day, I would be shoving as much products down your throat as possible. If it was a busy day, I would practically be ignoring you because I had work to get done. All this happens while 3 managers would be breathing down my neck to make sure I was doing what corporate wanted.

I got yelled at by the human resources guy because I didn't push beverage napkins on a lady. Cashiers always had to push an item when they were ringing them up, usually something small that is easily forgettable while roaming around. But how do you push beverage napkins on someone who is already buying 10 packs for them?

commissar80 wrote:My opinion, gw has excellent customer service, but are too pricey. I wished they kept up with the support games, necromunda, epic, bloodbowl, space hulk just too name a few, these were really great games. I remmember a road warrior style game gw made back during the rouge trader day off hand I can't think of the name of it, but it look like it had potential. Anyone rememmbers the name of that game?

Dark Future(s?)

I just wish that GW would go back to the good old days and promote publications/products not their own. Sure they don't have to go to the likes of PP, but at least go back to RPGs. Anyone remember the short Traveller/Runequest/Call Of Cthulu adventures. Those made WD worth reading, it wasn't just £4 for a bunch of adverts.

And it was an opportunity to keep people in the hobby abreast of what was happening elsewhere, and so perhaps keep them going.

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:

commissar80 wrote:My opinion, gw has excellent customer service, but are too pricey. I wished they kept up with the support games, necromunda, epic, bloodbowl, space hulk just too name a few, these were really great games. I remmember a road warrior style game gw made back during the rouge trader day off hand I can't think of the name of it, but it look like it had potential. Anyone rememmbers the name of that game?

Dark Future(s?)

I just wish that GW would go back to the good old days and promote publications/products not their own. Sure they don't have to go to the likes of PP, but at least go back to RPGs. Anyone remember the short Traveller/Runequest/Call Of Cthulu adventures. Those made WD worth reading, it wasn't just £4 for a bunch of adverts.

And it was an opportunity to keep people in the hobby abreast of what was happening elsewhere, and so perhaps keep them going.

Cheers

Andrew

Wouldn't it be great if they would allow other companies to independently licence and release these? I mean if they really aren't up to much money wise and only appeal to those veteran gamers they have no interest in any more then it would seem a great idea. Perhaps these games would actually do very well in the right hands.

My guess is that GW just don't want them cutting into the profits of the big three they currently have because the main games all have huge buy in costs and Necromunda and the rest have relatively small buy in costs. They are perfect for those on a limited budget or starting into the hobby or just have limited time and space. It rather looks like Necromunda and others were a little *too* well designed compared to 40K/fantasy and took people away from their main games where the really big money is to be found. They must have been well designed because they have an enduring appeal that has long outlived their retirement from GW stores, Necromunda, Warhammer Quest and Epic all have very loyal and long lived fanbases. Space Hulk got a re-release on the basis that it was a flash in the pan that received no enduring support in stores or the magazine.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

commissar80 wrote:My opinion, gw has excellent customer service, but are too pricey. I wished they kept up with the support games, necromunda, epic, bloodbowl, space hulk just too name a few, these were really great games. I remmember a road warrior style game gw made back during the rouge trader day off hand I can't think of the name of it, but it look like it had potential. Anyone rememmbers the name of that game?

Dark Future(s?)

I just wish that GW would go back to the good old days and promote publications/products not their own. Sure they don't have to go to the likes of PP, but at least go back to RPGs. Anyone remember the short Traveller/Runequest/Call Of Cthulu adventures. Those made WD worth reading, it wasn't just £4 for a bunch of adverts.

And it was an opportunity to keep people in the hobby abreast of what was happening elsewhere, and so perhaps keep them going.

Cheers

Andrew

Wouldn't it be great if they would allow other companies to independently licence and release these? I mean if they really aren't up to much money wise and only appeal to those veteran gamers they have no interest in any more then it would seem a great idea. Perhaps these games would actually do very well in the right hands.

Haven't they done something similar with FFG? What's the difference between FFG releasing a Horus Heresy game and releasing a Dark Futures or Man o War reboot?

I don't understand why GW are so keen to sweep these older games under the carpet.

filbert wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

commissar80 wrote:My opinion, gw has excellent customer service, but are too pricey. I wished they kept up with the support games, necromunda, epic, bloodbowl, space hulk just too name a few, these were really great games. I remmember a road warrior style game gw made back during the rouge trader day off hand I can't think of the name of it, but it look like it had potential. Anyone rememmbers the name of that game?

Dark Future(s?)

I just wish that GW would go back to the good old days and promote publications/products not their own. Sure they don't have to go to the likes of PP, but at least go back to RPGs. Anyone remember the short Traveller/Runequest/Call Of Cthulu adventures. Those made WD worth reading, it wasn't just £4 for a bunch of adverts.

And it was an opportunity to keep people in the hobby abreast of what was happening elsewhere, and so perhaps keep them going.

Cheers

Andrew

Wouldn't it be great if they would allow other companies to independently licence and release these? I mean if they really aren't up to much money wise and only appeal to those veteran gamers they have no interest in any more then it would seem a great idea. Perhaps these games would actually do very well in the right hands.

Haven't they done something similar with FFG? What's the difference between FFG releasing a Horus Heresy game and releasing a Dark Futures or Man o War reboot?

I don't understand why GW are so keen to sweep these older games under the carpet.

Expect to see more GW liscenced games coming out from FFG over the next couple of years. Things like Manowar and DF are actually quite a possibility.

mikhaila wrote:

filbert wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

AndrewC wrote:

commissar80 wrote:My opinion, gw has excellent customer service, but are too pricey. I wished they kept up with the support games, necromunda, epic, bloodbowl, space hulk just too name a few, these were really great games. I remmember a road warrior style game gw made back during the rouge trader day off hand I can't think of the name of it, but it look like it had potential. Anyone rememmbers the name of that game?

Dark Future(s?)

I just wish that GW would go back to the good old days and promote publications/products not their own. Sure they don't have to go to the likes of PP, but at least go back to RPGs. Anyone remember the short Traveller/Runequest/Call Of Cthulu adventures. Those made WD worth reading, it wasn't just £4 for a bunch of adverts.

And it was an opportunity to keep people in the hobby abreast of what was happening elsewhere, and so perhaps keep them going.

Cheers

Andrew

Wouldn't it be great if they would allow other companies to independently licence and release these? I mean if they really aren't up to much money wise and only appeal to those veteran gamers they have no interest in any more then it would seem a great idea. Perhaps these games would actually do very well in the right hands.

Haven't they done something similar with FFG? What's the difference between FFG releasing a Horus Heresy game and releasing a Dark Futures or Man o War reboot?

I don't understand why GW are so keen to sweep these older games under the carpet.

Expect to see more GW liscenced games coming out from FFG over the next couple of years. Things like Manowar and DF are actually quite a possibility.

Thumbs up from me - some of these older games were pretty decent and deserve exposure to a newer audience.

filbert wrote:Haven't they done something similar with FFG? What's the difference between FFG releasing a Horus Heresy game and releasing a Dark Futures or Man o War reboot?

I don't understand why GW are so keen to sweep these older games under the carpet.

I know FFG do the RPG 40K releases but they are new rather than older games, and they are RPGs. There are lots of older games with dedicated fan bases that are unsupported.

Dark Future and Man o' War would be great to see again, GW had a good go at burying MoW not long after it was released.

FFG also do Talisman, several expansions for Taliman, Chaos in the Old World, and Warhammer Invasion LCG. The Deathwatch card game is new, and they reprinted the old Chaos Marauder game. Horus Heresy I haven't played yet, so I can't say how close it is to the old board game.

I like GW. The value is there for me. The community is there. The pricing is fine considering how much use I get out of them and how much I enjoy it. My two "evening" hobbies after work are generally reading and miniatures. For the amount of time I get out of my miniatures game/hobby wise I'm golden at their price. Granted I rarely purchase at cost unless I'm supporting a local store or buying in to a tournament but hey, I've got no problem with them.

No other miniature game in the produced is easier to find a game for anywhere here in the US that I've travelled. I'd support them just based on that alone. Plus I'm a big tourney junky and 40k is the only miniature game that has a large tournament circuit and largely organized community. And it's only getting better!

This old horse is dead, buried and rotted to dust.

But I suppose it is a discussion that must be had with each new wave of fresh faces.

GW is a business. A business exists to turn a profit. GW dominates the market, has grown and innovated the industry like no game company before or since and they are still around after 30 years. They are doing a lot of things right.

Is it worth the money? That is a decision only you can answer for yourself. If you take a lot of enjoyment from their games, then obviously yes. If you do not, then no. Pretty simple.

A 2,000 point army with some extra units to change things up bought at retail with books, dice, an army bag, etc. will run you about $600. That army will last you for years.

If you keep and use that army for 4 years, you paid $150 a year to assemble and paint an army, make new friends, play countless hours of fun games and generally enjoy yourself.

That to me is more than worth the cost of admission.

GW has excellent customer service as well. They do take care of their paying customers.

The game is huge and growing all the time. I move around a lot and no matter where I have gone I have been able to find a place I can play, make new friends and have fun with my armies.

So yeah, I love GW. Their games have provided me with hours and hours of fun. I spend what is realistic for me on the game and don't even think twice about it. It's far cheaper than Golf, Scuba, Drinking, Snowboarding, or any other number of hobbies.

I hope GW lasts for ages and that I can one day play this silly game with my kids and grand kids.

Comparing GW with other companies seems to be the way to go, so:

Product quality: GW are like BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Lexus et al - a top marque that turns out quality products (which is the reason they got to the top) and they now charge a premium price so you get the item with the name on it - in the car terms, that price is paid as a status thing IMO; GW, it's because of that monopoly they have. The miniatures they produce are great; the peripheral stuff (brushes, paints, glues, whatever) may not be the highest quality, but they definitely aren't the lowest - serviceable stuff suited to the job in hand.

Customer service (not needed to use it personally, but from others' experiences): GW are like Marks and Spencer: you pay a bit more than comparable (or as said above, slightly higher quality) products from their competitors, but you have complete confidence that any problem you may encounter will be resolved satisfactorily in the shortest possible time.
To those who stated they are just following the law: from what I've heard, they're going well above and beyond what is required. A company could resolve your complaint in 2 hours or 28 days (or longer, depending on the situation), and both scenarios are perfectly compliant - which would make you a happier customer, though?

Business model: GW are just like the company I work for (and a whole load of other large private and public companies)
- They have a very corporate environment/culture, sales scripts and shop quotas and targets, certain products that have to be promoted, detaching the customer from the hobby experience; the customer is just someone to be sold something and then on to the next. I'm sure they have customer service seminars for their staff, but from views in this thread (and elsewehere on the forum) their current practice is obviously not what many customers want.
- They manufacture the product and have an extensive distribution system: their own retail outlets; independent retail outlets; their own e-commerce site; independent e-commerce. Other miniatures and game systems could be the best in the world, but if they have no way to get them to hobbyists then no one will know about them.

Can't think of a comparison here, but the GW worlds are 'complete' - from game systems to miniatures to paints and hobby equipment to extensive background fluff and fiction, they try to cover every angle. If someone finds a new angle, they try to cover it (like Microsoft I suppose, who, if they can't replicate a technology, buy a company that can).

Short summary is what I think has been said many times before: good product from a good company that has lost its way now that it has shareholders that it needs to satisfy.

Ulver wrote:Comparing GW with other companies seems to be the way to go, so:

Product quality: GW are like BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Lexus et al - a top marque that turns out quality products (which is the reason they got to the top) and they now charge a premium price so you get the item with the name on it - in the car terms, that price is paid as a status thing IMO;

What's that rumbling I hear in the distance? Oh no, it's getting closer! OMG!!!!!



The horror, the horror.....

Hahaha, hey, every company has it's ugly ducklings!

In general, GW models are top notch. Their plastic kits, literally, have no peers. They have changed the entire industry time and again.

Reecius wrote:Their plastic kits, literally, have no peers.

Let's not overstate the case.

How many other plastic minotaur kits are out there Johira? See, no peer

And yeah, any company can miss the mark from time to time even though I personally like the Mino's (though not the razorgor).

JOHIRA wrote:

Reecius wrote:Their plastic kits, literally, have no peers.

Let's not overstate the case.

Funny, here I was thinking the general consensus was that "when not painted like beefcakes, the Minotaurs can actually look pretty good".

Crazy!

The big positive of GW:

Like many start up and independent companies, it has not been bought out by a bigger entity (read: Hasbro, WOTC, TSR).

Hence I feel that despite the many complaints (including costs), they still have an original vision for their product rather than the crap that gets spewed out as their corporate slavemasters demand of them.

WarOne wrote:The big positive of GW:

Like many start up and independent companies, it has not been bought out by a bigger entity (read: Hasbro, WOTC, TSR).

Hence I feel that despite the many complaints (including costs), they still have an original vision for their product rather than the crap that gets spewed out as their corporate slavemasters demand of them.

Not sure the angle you're trying to represent there, but either way Gw doesn't exactly count as a 'small' entity:

"For the {year ended 30th (sic) May 2010}, the company reported revenue of £126.511 million against £125.706 million a year ago. Operating profit was £16.045 million against £8.933 million a year ago."

Ulver wrote:

WarOne wrote:The big positive of GW:

Like many start up and independent companies, it has not been bought out by a bigger entity (read: Hasbro, WOTC, TSR).

Hence I feel that despite the many complaints (including costs), they still have an original vision for their product rather than the crap that gets spewed out as their corporate slavemasters demand of them.

Not sure the angle you're trying to represent there, but either way Gw doesn't exactly count as a 'small' entity:

"For the {year ended 30th (sic) May 2010}, the company reported revenue of £126.511 million against £125.706 million a year ago. Operating profit was £16.045 million against £8.933 million a year ago."

And yet, they're still not as large as WOTC was when it was bought out by Hasbro or TSR was when bought out by WOTC.

I was trying to look for that info, but couldn't source it.

Again then, I wouldn't regard WOTC or TSR as startups or independents. WOTC was acquired after about 9 years of trading.

GW is a publicly-listed company, so I don't see how it qualifies as an 'independent'.

I had quite some fun when i whent into a gw store the other day, they didnt know me so i played the ignorant teen, he spent half a hour explaining every thing for me and proclaimed when he was finished, "soo, i was just picking up some paint for my dwarves." The look he gave me was priceless. Ah... good times.

Kanluwen wrote:Funny, here I was thinking the general consensus was that "when not painted like beefcakes, the Minotaurs can actually look pretty good".

I've seen no consensus (just like I've seen no plastic minotaurs yet that "actually look pretty good"). But if you need a different plastic example then you can look at the "chibi-hawk", a miniature that no doubt saw many months of design time and is still inferior to many players' kitbashes and designs people could knock together in photoshop in 30 mintues.

Why is it that despite my general dislike for GW I can acknowledge that they do some things well, and yet there are still people out there who cannot accept that GW has any negative points? They're a big company, they don't need anyone to defend them and you won't get any free minis white knighting for them.

Why is it that despite my general dislike for GW I can acknowledge that they do some things well, and yet there are still people out there who cannot accept that GW has any negative points? They're a big company, they don't need anyone to defend them and you won't get any free minis white knighting for them.

There are those people who border the Zealot edge of reality who are so... blinded that no wrong can be to their beliefs. I've met a few of these people in my businesses and when I was active in a more professional tournament play.

Games workshop makes good models in their market sphere but they are not the "absolute" best IMHO.

They do have a good product and they promote the hobby in their stores. It is everything else that people are complaining about.

As far as positives go, GW has a decent, long running product and hobby. Whilst I won’t say that they are the best hobby company around, they are probably the most iconic.

Probably the main negative of the company IMO is their rules side of the hobby with the slow release of codices as the sole source of rules updates and the lack of supplement/interim rules for older codices. This reason has always restricted me to a small degree when purchasing GW products

The bad:

Their items are overpriced. 40k favors expensive armies and is horribly unbalanced. They do not update codexes frequently enough. C'mon, we're what? 2 years into 5th edition and still have what 3, 3rd edition codexes in use?

The good:

Their models are usually excellent. They have the best plastic kits. 40k and Warhammer are both fascinating universes. I'd say Warhammer is probably my favorite fantasy setting. .

Captain Solon wrote:Evil sponge, why are they a terrible company? are you saying it's bad of them to ask you to pay for their space, their terrain, their toys, their knowledge?

that comment really gets to me. how dare you forget why patronage is important.

in my exp id say its because they dont pay enough to staff to enable them to live (if they have any dependants) without getting a second job (in terms of how much cash you actually get in 12 months...) - shame or id have stayed put with a great big smile on my face..... that upsets a lot of staff n x staff.....