Ok, so here is the story. Our FLGS runs a league every year. This year, an ogre player came. He was sort of unclear about his experience level and said things like "I'm not that good." The league is intended as an incubator for newer players, and we try as best we can to rank people according to their power level. Since we weren't sure about this guy, we put in him a low division, with 2 people who've played less than 10 games each and another one of our guys.

Lo and behold, not only is the gentleman a highly accomplished warhammer player, he's also a complete and utter punk. Facing one of our kids, playing warriors of chaos, ogre boy took the leadership-modifying item and simply spammed panic tests (gut magic has a spell to do this) until all of the kid's units ran off the board. Win to the ogres. Note also that in the process here, ogre boy actually cheated by forcing the same unit to take more than one panic test per phase. This was the opponent who had to play him twice, and both games went the same way.

Facing a high elf list, ogre boy killed a unit of archers early, and then played point denial so that kill, just slightly over 100 points, got him the win since he lost zero. To accomplish this, he also deliberately slow-played to the point that it took four hours to reach the top of turn three, at which point the game store closed and the game had to be called. Win to the ogres.

Naturally, the two kids he pulled these shenanigans on were pretty discouraged, especially after he mocked them for not being able to do anything to him. The veteran gamers in our club (incl. me) are now in mama bear mode and out for blood.

As the league progresses, at the semester break all the divisions are reorganized. With his four wins in the first half (out of four), ogre boy is moving into the very top division with myself, and two other experienced players. Our goal is not just to beat him, but to humiliate him, frustrate him, cripple everything his army wants to do; in short, we want to demonstrate to him what it's like to have the kind of experience that he gave our newbies. My Canadian colleagues will understand: when the other team goes out of their way to rough up your guys, it's up to the veterans on the team to play even rougher, even if you have to spend some time in the box.

So. I play empire. I'm throwing the forum open: what disgusting dirty tricks can I play that will neutralize everything ogres want to do? I don't normally play this way, but this is a matter of principle.

Here's the general outline so far:

1) Ws10 pope on war altar (fencer's blades, speculum). Everything in the ogre list will need 5's to hit him except characters, which get speculumed to ws4 and then also need 5's to hit. Ogre boy likes to run a multi-character bullstar, so I should be able to stick it in place and then ignore it completely.

2) HelBlaster/engineer spam. Ogres do not like high-strength armor-wrecking shooting.

3)Priest/pope spam. I think I can undertake to make sure not one single gut magic spell will get off all game.

4) I'll combine this with a level 4 wizard to enhance my dispel rolls. He'll take heavens with the purpose of preventing all those s4 ogre attacks from ever hitting a damn thing (iceshard blizzard, curse of the midnight wind, ws10 pope will mean that ogre bulls or ironguts will only hit on 6's which they have to re-roll. Pha's protection from the pope wagon in reserve) He'll carry a rod of power to ensure he'll always have plenty of dice.

5) Lots of shooty fast cav to distract, confuse, avoid, and whittle down his units.

So far, we've got severely depleted units of ogres finally making it across the board to be met by his holiness, whom they'll struggle to be able to hit at all, while the rest of my army overwhelms the rest of his and then dogpiles on his bullstar. What I'm looking for is any ways to enhance this. Even softer-hearted players can pull out all the stops in good conscience; trust me, this guy's the kind of tool the hobby is better off without.

Ready, go!

Any idea what kind of list he runs? Your plan so far seems pretty solid though.

I would just skip the gaming and ask the prick to leave. Then I would allow him to leave only after apologizing to the beginner players and the store managers for deceiving everyone about his skill level.

That's just me.

What armies do you and the other avengers have at your disposal?

You'r empire plan seems solid. For several other races shadow will be pretty good too, epsecially the pit of shades. With dwarves you can totally screw his RiP spells over and then gunline his fat ass. And just for the fun of it try placing a comet in the middle of the board and then stand still and wait for him while you shoot him at long range.

Edit: And how could i forget my own lizards, just use light and the cube of darkness to mess up unbuffed Ogres with buffed saurus.

NightChild wrote:I would just skip the gaming and ask the prick to leave. Then I would allow him to leave only after apologizing to the beginner players and the store managers for deceiving everyone about his skill level.

That's just me.

I'd go with this idea. If he's going to be a WAAC type of guy and pretend to be a bad player just to achieve it, I really wouldn't bother playing against him.

I don't know how you can beat him, but let us know how badly he loses. I'm very interested now

Thanks for your input, everyone.

I hear what y'all are saying with regard to kicking him out. There's a couple problems with it. One is scheduling: half the league would have to have byes or something if he left, and then the scoring would be weird due to people with byes getting a draw. There are playoffs coming, and we'd like to maintain the integrity of the scoring system.

The other problem is a bit more personal; I'm looking forward to this.

His list so far (this was at 2000, and we're up to 2500 now in the escalation system) has been a horde of bulls (ironfists) with a tyrant, a slaughtermaster, and a bruiser BSB. Not sure about the items, but the tyrant is tooled for survival. Also a scraplauncher and the obligatory gnoblar troop. One of the characters in the bullstar had the crown of command.

Hoverboy, the division is me (empire), Ogre Boy, a skaven player who needs no help at all finding broken things to use (I anticipate his 2000 list rocking double pits and a powerscroll seer, as well as several warpfire throwers with their d3-multiwounding goodness) and a lizardmen player who's the leader of our club, and possibly the nicest guy God ever made. He brought a carnosaur to the league finals last season, is how nice he is. However, he does own a slann, which ogres have approximately zero tools to deal with.

This is the top division, and we'll have to see how our nemesis does now that he's fighting in his own weight class.

Feedback, ideas, etc, still welcome!

Oh, and as for my other armies, I have dwarfs in reserve, but the league rules require that you stay with the same army all season long barring a real catastrophe (by which I mean, the only exception we've ever made to this rule was when a guy got his whole army stolen from his car).

If he's rocking a Bullstar a 50 man Horde Greatsword unit with Wyssan's Wildform is hard to beat, especially if it's accompanied by a flanking detachment.

Or, you could be really, really cheesy and try to get off Purple Sun. It'd be hard, but if you could do it you'd essentially wipe the whole bullstar out in a turn. Give your Wizard the staff that allows them to save up to 3 power dice from the last phase, and then blow 'em all on Purple Sun. Sure, you'll probably miscast, but unless he rolls really lucky you're bound to kill at least half of the unit. It's still kinda risky though. Plus, you might not roll a 6 when you're choosing spells...

But yeah, Helstorm Rockets, Great Cannons, etc. are really great for aggravating Ogres.

NightChild wrote:I would just skip the gaming and ask the prick to leave. Then I would allow him to leave only after apologizing to the beginner players and the store managers for deceiving everyone about his skill level.

That's just me.

I would back this suggestion. Its the best way. If its so obvious get the store manager/club leader to warn him next time he pulls such a stunt he's out.

Beat him...




...up in the parking lot.

First step would be to get some rules in about stalling for time; 4 hours for 3 turns is just stupid. I'd refuse to give him a win based off of an incomplete game.

The best course of action is to have rules put in place to prevent this type of abuse, and disallow total jackasses from playing. Taunting an opponent (mean spirited) should never be tolerated.


Beating him, which isn't tough with a cheesy empire list, might not get the results you are looking for.

Here's an alternative: Deploy everything on your own deployment zone edge, and simply flee every charge. After the game ends, let him know that he's a jack ass and you'd rather hand him a win than waste 3-4 hours of your life with him; as would the other players in the league. You might also let him know that he needs to work on his sportsmanship or he's not likely to find people who will want to play him.
Sometimes people like this need an intervention, and can become positive people in the hobby. Giving him a hallow victory might be the smack he needs.

I did this to a brettonian player with my orcs and goblins. I even faced my own table edge. Game lasted ~20 minutes, then I was on to a game I enjoyed. He got the "win", and was unhappy to find out nobody else wanted to play him that day, and packed up and left. He did eventually become a better person, and has even won best sportsmanship since then.


-Matt

Matt, you sound like an experienced organizer. We're having the midseason league meeting, and rules for slow playing, rules for scoring incomplete games, and rules for restricting list cheese are on the list.

We're also considering a rule which will allow players to insist that a third party be present to referee. Any one of us vets would have put a stop to any of the real abuses (though we wouldn't have been able to do much about that panic-test-modifying item).

As for the intervention you suggest, it's definitely worth considering. I'll point it out to the guys. I've had those moments where I had a shocking realization that I was being an ass... who hasn't? Mainly it dealt with the kind of smack that routinely gets talked between people who know each other well, but gets taken the wrong way in another environment.

This is a one-year problem, in any case; returning league players are seeded based on their performance in the previous year, so now that we know what he's made of, he won't end up being able to bully newbies.

I respect and support this player-roughing proposal, but am afraid I'm still too noobish to contribute anything beyond that encouragement lol

Also, go Canucks

Malleus wrote:Matt, you sound like an experienced organizer. We're having the midseason league meeting, and rules for slow playing, rules for scoring incomplete games, and rules for restricting list cheese are on the list.

We're also considering a rule which will allow players to insist that a third party be present to referee. Any one of us vets would have put a stop to any of the real abuses (though we wouldn't have been able to do much about that panic-test-modifying item).

As for the intervention you suggest, it's definitely worth considering. I'll point it out to the guys. I've had those moments where I had a shocking realization that I was being an ass... who hasn't? Mainly it dealt with the kind of smack that routinely gets talked between people who know each other well, but gets taken the wrong way in another environment.

This is a one-year problem, in any case; returning league players are seeded based on their performance in the previous year, so now that we know what he's made of, he won't end up being able to bully newbies.

You're wrong about it being a single year problem. Even if he goes into the top division, he's still an ass. Slow play for a "win" is totally unacceptable. I'm not an experienced organizer, I was just lucky enough to play in extremely well organized events.
They had a take that if the only way you could find an opponent was to join a league where people are forced to play you, you should not be in the league.

This is especially true with new players. You don't need to throw a game, but you can still win and have your opponent enjoy the game and learn something.

If I'm not going to have fun, and I'm not going to learn anything, I might as well flee every charge and move on to the next game.

-Matt

Required Civil Approach:
"Have you talked to the guy and explained that that was unacceptable..."
Required Passive Aggressive Approach:
"Find someone to pick up his slot and continue with the league, when he shows up, tell him that he has been suspended for wearing his rectum as a hat."

'e is dishonorin Da Maw, smack him round the noggin then let da butcha feast on his inards!

How about a nice Purple Sun down the line of his Deathstar

Ogres like that alot!!!

Andy

QuietOrkmi wrote:Required Civil Approach:
"Have you talked to the guy and explained that that was unacceptable..."

Not only would this be the right thing to do, but it it would be the right example to set for the young 'uns.

Vengeance is allways the right answer

Grey Magic... use the spell that reduces initiative followed by Pit of Shades

At an average init of 2 the pit itself is enough against the Ogres.

Required Civil Approach:
"Have you talked to the guy and explained that that was unacceptable..."

You can't fight fire with fire. To set a good example and to not make him angry, therefore making him ignore everything you say to him, just explain what is acceptable and how he wasn't being sportsmanlike . Then proceed to whoop his ass in a game. He will be taught some humility!

p.s. I don't know much about beating ogres, but I'm an o&g player and both stanks and pit of shades wrecks me.

Question:

What happens when you go to the mat with your uber cheese, and he roffelstomps you?

Sounds like this guy lknows all of the tricks of the trade.

Being diplomatic about this is the best way to do it. Don't let him into group 1 with the experienced gamers, kick him out of the campaign, and take the bye's when he wants to know why let him know he failed his audition and hurt young players confidence in the quest for a simple win. Next campaign he gets a shot, but that will be his last chance.

Any other way is a lose-lose situation.

This is where I like to use what I call a win-win scenario.

Play him with your death army of ultradoom, and do your utmost to crush him like a sack of rice crackers.
If you win, you'll have proved your point, and just to be even more magnificent, be the gentleman at the end of the game, all smiles and good sportsmanship.
If you lose, reveal your doomsday weapon, a sledgehammer, and use it to crush his ogres literally.
Laugh like a maniac.

Either way, kid gets taught not to be a vagabond.

Kicking him out of the league may be the correct thing to do but not nearly as interesting, or memorable, as everyone in the group gearing their army to beat Ogres and stomping him every week

Have a chat with the other players, get them all to curbstomp his ogres and make it look like your game was boring with him. To play against the noobs just to get some wins when they have no chance, is a real horrible move.

You're mad at a player being a dick so you're going to solve it by being a dick?

Does this seem like:
a) a logical solution
b) a long term solution
c) the solution he would use on you
d) peanut butter

If there are interpersonal problems, they will not be changed by a game no matter what the outcome. The game will also not get him to quit smoking and/or use his turn signal before changing lanes.

If you approach the person in question and say something along the lines of, "all of us feel this behavior is unnacceptable for these reasons and if you do not change in this manner, you will no longer be allowed into the matches." In most situations in my life, I've found this to be effective. You are in a social, gaming group after all. Your strongest power is access to it. If he refuses to change, you now have the moral high ground and can boot him with an easy concscience. But being a jerk in a game can backfire in a lot of ways. You might give him new ideas to use. And you're basically encouraging him to continue his behavior by setting the example--I mean if you call him on it later, he can bring up your own tactics as justification. Not sure what you hope to accomplish.

2 steam tanks
3 cannons- each with an engineer.

If you really want to punk him send Karl franz on horse and ghal maraz with 9 knights into the bull star. Karl franz alone will win combat for you. The champ can take any challenge turn 1.
Hit on 3's auto wound, no armour, d3 wounds per failed ward/regen save. Karl Franz Lurves Ogres....

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:2 steam tanks
3 cannons- each with an engineer.

If you really want to punk him send Karl franz on horse and ghal maraz with 9 knights into the bull star. Karl franz alone will win combat for you. The champ can take any challenge turn 1.
Hit on 3's auto wound, no armour, d3 wounds per failed ward/regen save. Karl Franz Lurves Ogres....

Karl's only WS6, and that set up is 401 points. With only 4 attacks and D3 wounds per hit; I'm underwhelmed. He's averaging less than 6 wounds on the ogres; half that if they can regenerate.
He's not going to win it alone either. A tenderizing Tyrant (WS6 with 5 attacks at S7 doing D3 wounds each), is good for ~3.5 to 5.5 wounds depending on gear.

Cannon's aren't as good as mortars; as the D3 wounds isn't currently limited to under the whole. Sure the cannon will draw a line through the ogre block, but you need to kill each ogre for the cannon ball to hit the next ogre (8th edition cannon rules). It's pretty easy to fail to wound, or roll 1 or 2 for the number of wounds and have the ball stop short.
That 5" D3 wounding template will on average put out more hurt on a big block.

Then we come to steam tanks...
Best case is 6D3 S6 impact hits; then the ogre characters pound on it and kill/cripple it.
For 300 points, take Flagellents instead. Against an ogre horde, you go 14 wide, to toss out 44 attacks (hitting on 4's with re-rolls, and possibly, 3+, re-rolling to wound). You're looking at 22 to 29 wounds. Line up 3 of those on his death star.

-Matt

i would kick the guy out.


Ogres do not cheat, we rely on skill and sheer strength to win.

don't come down to his level to beat him, a really good ogre player knows the Weaknesses of his army and will know how to avoid Psuns and the like.



Don't let him play anymore untill he shapes up.

if that isn't an option, then you can go ahead and beat him down.



some general advice regarding ogres

Ogre Magic is tough. it may not see like that, but it is.

if he takes a little item called Grut's Sickle he can one dice spam spells to draw out your dispell dice until he loses concentration, then he uses the Sickle to get another dice by wounding his unit and then continues to cast.


once the Magic is up you have a difficult choice. all Gut Magic is dispelled on a 7 once it is up. if you only use 1 dice then you have a 1/3 chance of your Wizard losing concentration and his magic stays. if you do 2 or more dice then you are in serious danger of not casting any magic of your own.

Multi-wound weapons are good, but there is a catch.

Ogres really don't care about not getting armor saves(What armor?)

if a penetrating weapon fails to fully kill a model then it stops. Bolt throwers are terrible at killing ogres. you need to hit, wound, and then roll a 5 or 6 to kill completely.

cannons are better, but it's still a 1/6 chance of failing to wound and then a 1/3 chance of failing to kill.

Grey Templar wrote:
once the Magic is up you have a difficult choice. all Gut Magic is dispelled on a 7 once it is up. if you only use 1 dice then you have a 1/3 chance of your Wizard losing concentration and his magic stays. if you do 2 or more dice then you are in serious danger of not casting any magic of your own.

It's worse than that. They count as being cast on a 7, so you need an 8 to dispel them (got to beat the roll with RIP).
Also, being able to stack them now means that if I really need a +1 toughness and stubborn, I'm going to cast it on them 2 or 3 times (for +2/+3 toughness and stubborn). Now when it's dispelling time, you've got to get all 2~3 to remove the stubborn. Same goes for Regen/strength.

You just can't let the ogre player get ahead in the magic phase, as miscasts don't end RIP spells like they used to.




-Matt

I heard about this gut magic stacking but I cannot find any information on it... Care to elaborate?

You get the toughness boost off multyple times and the unit gets that much tougher and so on. It's in the FAQ.

QuietOrkmi wrote:I heard about this gut magic stacking but I cannot find any information on it... Care to elaborate?

the restriction in the book saying that no unit may have more then 1 spell on it at a time was removed.

the BRB says that Buffs of any sort stack.


all this combined allows for the stacking of buffs.

Ogres can potentially be Str10 and T10 with Regen and MR2.


the most dangerous things to ogres are tons of attacks, a single T buff makes them practically immune to Str3. if they also have Regen they become really awsome.

Regen even makes Cannonballs seem wimpy(except Dwarf cannons. Stupid Flaming rune )

+2 strength is what I'm always shooting for.
S6 bulls is just stupidly good.

Now if only I could actually hit my opponent.

-Matt

Ogres are already Str4.

T3 is the most common toughness.


you really only need Str buffs if your facing something really tough or well armored.

What page does it say that multiple buffs stack... the paragraph number would also be helpful...

If it is written plain as day, this changes everything! I would definitely drop MSU Ogres for 3x2 ogres strong!

Pge 31, italicised section between Hex and Vortex descriptions.

Grey Templar wrote:Ogres are already Str4.

T3 is the most common toughness.


you really only need Str buffs if your facing something really tough or well armored.

T3 is the most common? I'd say I see about as much T4 as T3.

Beast: T3 ungor, T4+ everything else.
Brets & Empire: T3, though S6 would help bust armor.
Dark Elves, high elves, Daemons: T3 core, no real need for strength (multiple +to instead)
Ogres, Lizards and Dwarf: T4+, and heavy armor (you don't need any sort of help against skinks)
O&G: pretty well split down the middle; but night goblin nets is quasi T4 so the S6 is useful 5/6th of the time.
Tomb Kings, Skaven: Split, T3 core, T4 specials, T5/6 rares, and then we have the bells/furnaces. S6 is good.
Vampires, warriors, wood elves: T3/T4 core, and T4 specials and T4+ rares. Again, S6 is good.

So I'd say that S6 is a waste against High/Dark Elves and Daemon, but just about every other game, it's been useful. It's useful for another reason too. You get to use your boosted strength to take the strength test for another boosted strength, so it's easier to cast the 2nd go around. Maybe you only "need" strength 5 (fight elves for example), having Strength 6 or 7 means that the elf now has to work through 1 or 2 extra dispels to get to that +1 strength. Going from wounding on 3's and saving on 6's to wounding on 2's with no save is a 50% increase in kills. Hell yes I'm going to double stack a spell that increases my kills by 50%. It's also nice that you don't take wounds/hits while doubling up on strength.

-Matt

Ive come to realize that Elves are still the ban of Ogres, all of them even WE. DE and HE can shut down his magic phase and rain death with lots of str 4 ap bolt shots. I had a large unit of glade guard, 22 strong, with the Aech banner(always stand and shoot) and slaughtered two units of bulls before they got to me, plus the stand and shoot helped a lot. Only had to deal with one ogre at that time and my frail little glade guard were able to beat them. As for empire Ive found Pistoliers to be the way to go, that and knights still seem to work really well against them. I dont even bother with WM any more because they are far to fickled for my taste. Kinda hard to battle plan with totaly random attacks. I do more damage to myself then my oppenant 90% of the time when I take war machines. Big blocks of spearmen work pretty well against ogres, as long as those ogres are still toughness 4. Great swords are a moot point, yes the str five is good but the always strike last is gonna hurt unless you're going after Iron guts then its a good fight. I normally take halberdiers as my attachment for greatswords as the str 4 attack help. I like a large gun line against ogres too, normally 3 units of ten handguners and 1 unit of 20 crossbowmen. This has been working really well for me against all armies I face, save skaven and that damnable banner. I still like taking a large unit of 10-12 inner circle knights with at least a mounted warrior preist and a fighty captain or something better.

Hopefully you can teach this guy a lesson or two. I hate meta gamers.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Cannon's aren't as good as mortars; as the D3 wounds isn't currently limited to under the whole.

I know this board has debated this topic before (at least I think it has), and I'm not looking to rehash it now, except to say that not everyone agrees with that sentiment, and at the very least you should be ready for a bit of an argument if you try that.

Purple Sun will bypass any toughness spells he has going. If he runs a deathstar, this seems very feasible. Just bring a sacrificial sorcerer (or 3)

No tactics to contribute, just saying I think you're doing the right thing, this is how people learn.

For inspiration, you should totally re-watch Oceans 13.

phogiston735 wrote:Purple Sun will bypass any toughness spells he has going. If he runs a deathstar, this seems very feasible. Just bring a sacrificial sorcerer (or 3)

Hey, to pull in from the thread on signature spells, it seems the best way do it would be 2 level 4's (one death w/power stone, one shadow), and 2 level 2's (death and shadow, one with rod of power)
Have the level 2's generate 1st, and swap out if you roll up purple sun or pit of shades (so the level 4's can get them).

It should be pretty easy to get that level 4 with purple sun in the right spot for it to hose the Ogres, and then with the dice that generates, throw a pit of shades at the survivors.


-Matt

Honestly, if you can't redirect/stall a Ogrestar with empire, the ass deserves to win. A couple of cannons will win you the day.
Make him play the Skaven player. A single unit of Slaves backed by two Warp-Cannons is essentially auto-win against deathsarry armies, especially an underwhelming one like ogre kingdoms. Your skaven buddy will get bonus points for withering them down to the point where death-frenzied and/or poisoned/ and or normal slaves win against him.

But seriously, the four hour thing should have been called out immediately after he did that. No game takes that long, and he is obviously bulling some kids who are probably too meek to stand up for themselves.

Mekniakal wrote:Honestly, if you can't redirect/stall a Ogrestar with empire, the ass deserves to win. A couple of cannons will win you the day.
Make him play the Skaven player. A single unit of Slaves backed by two Warp-Cannons is essentially auto-win against deathsarry armies, especially an underwhelming one like ogre kingdoms. Your skaven buddy will get bonus points for withering them down to the point where death-frenzied and/or poisoned/ and or normal slaves win against him.

But seriously, the four hour thing should have been called out immediately after he did that. No game takes that long, and he is obviously bulling some kids who are probably too meek to stand up for themselves.

Well, tying up an ogre deathstar isn't as easy as you think Mekniakal. they can pump out well over 80 attacks and thats without adding characters and having a rank or 2 of ablative wounds(28 bulls costs only 980 points)

you would need a truly massive Slave unit to even hope to tie it up more then 2 turns.



the best way to defeat a deathstar is to ignore it(hard to do i know), kill the supporting units and keep the deathstar from getting more then it's other units cost.

Dumb question incoming: Couldn't you use a spell that affects his whole unit? I don't know anything about Empire but couldn't Skaven use the dreaded 13th spell here?

Sadly for skaven the 13th only works on infantry and ogres are monstrous infantry, as far as nuke spells go Ogres hate the pit of shades and/or purple sun.

Pit of Shades isn't as bad as Purple Sun because it is a Strength test which ogres have a good chance of passing, but when you lose 35+ points in one go it can get expensive fast.


Frankly, i think the Miscast table needs to be twice as bad to make up for the damage these spells can do. and Dispell scrolls really need to be able to be taken more then once.

the only Level 4 wizard that is priced right for the damage it does is a DE Supreme Sorceress. everything else is just way undercosted.

beating him sounds fun, i'd like to hear all about it. I am however with the others about talking to him. Obviously he is an Ass, but he should be told in a cold and formal manner, repeatedly that that sort of conduct is not tolerated and delt with if possible as follows:

Deception about skill levels? Well i read about Fantasy battles for over 2 years before i played a game, for all anyone knows that realy could have been his first game. I've seen stranger things.

4 hours for 3 turns? no no nonono... there is no excuse for this whatsoever in a structured environment. I'd like to know on what context he was stalling like that, stuffing his face with Cheetos so he couldn't talk or what?

Lastly, taunting his opponents? I guess you are lucky he wasn't teabagging them. The best way to deal with someone like this other than a cattle prod or a Referee, is to use a game report card filled out by both participants in a given game with an option for rating your opponent's sportsmanship (that gets turned in after a game). Having the best rating on sportsmanship should get you a little prize or store credit or something, even if it's just a congrats. Being rated poorly, repeatedly might get you a talking to from the event manager, or eventualy a 'Penalty' to your ranking. Being rated even just once by an opponent as 'Unacceptable' should get your win counted as half points, or incur you a penalty. If people are getting rated this way unfairly they can appeal it, but most WHF players are not vindictive in my experience. A penalty if that is most applicable should drop you a ranking. Therefore our foolish Ogre friend would find that he was always rated poorly, and though winning every game to first place ranking, finishes say, around Last Place. If he rates other players badly, you can just have them appeal it with the circumstances and you'll know exactly who is at fault, as you do already. If he wants to win, he'll have to play with some common decency, if he wants to pack up his toys and play elsewhere problem equally solved... if he want to be a grief-giving ass, and just mow people and taunt them without caring about scores, then you can just kick him the hell outa your events, and if he resists, spray him with Mace.

Just a warning, the Deathstar will likely include the Rune Maw, which makes hitting them with spells problimatic.

Not template spells.
Also the pit of hades is an init test and thus very bad for ogres, it's dwellers below that does streinght.

If the spell hits the unit, it can be transferred to another unit. No exception for template spells.

Second stupid question:

Wouldn't he be vulnerable to cheap units with high volume attacks?

skyth wrote:If the spell hits the unit, it can be transferred to another unit. No exception for template spells.

Spells that Target the unit can get bounced. out of the uber spells only PoS is a direct damage spell(and as such targets the unit)


i think the runemaw should work against all spells(and it was intended to be that way), but at the time it was written there weren't any spells that didn't directly target a unit.

The morbid part of me wants to know if Ogreboy took an epic beatdown.

The logical part of me hopes the situation was handled in some other way.

The Competitive part of me hopes he got CRUSHED.

Let's hear the trip report!!!

skyth wrote:If the spell hits the unit, it can be transferred to another unit. No exception for template spells.

Spells that target the unit, not hit the unit. Purple Sun Owns him.
Pit of shades is just icing, as it isn't bad to kill the support too, if/when it does get bounced; though pendulum or whatever you call it; the draw a line 6D6" long and init test or remove would not get bounced either, it doesn't target a unit.

-Matt

Grey Templar wrote:
Well, tying up an ogre deathstar isn't as easy as you think Mekniakal. they can pump out well over 80 attacks and thats without adding characters and having a rank or 2 of ablative wounds(28 bulls costs only 980 points)

you would need a truly massive Slave unit to even hope to tie it up more then 2 turns.

980 points is a MASSIVE point sink. If we want to go into rough approximates with skaven units (at minimum size) 980 points nets you 490 slaves (in 24.5 blocks of 20), 245 clanrats (in 12 and a bit blocks) , and 140 stormvermin (in 14 blocks). Extreme cases, but Skaven can easily toss a big mix of those units in 980 points and have a bunch of points left in 2000/2500pts for sheer killy.

the best way to defeat a deathstar is to ignore it(hard to do i know), kill the supporting units and keep the deathstar from getting more then it's other units cost.

Ignoring it, like you say, is the best SOP for beating them. The biggest problem I see with newer players is that they believe they need to face the deathstar.

Get a shovel and beat his fat ass with it.

Grey Templar wrote:

skyth wrote:If the spell hits the unit, it can be transferred to another unit. No exception for template spells.

Spells that Target the unit can get bounced. out of the uber spells only PoS is a direct damage spell(and as such targets the unit)


i think the runemaw should work against all spells(and it was intended to be that way), but at the time it was written there weren't any spells that didn't directly target a unit.

Just borrowed a copy of the army book. That'll teach me to go by the wording in army builder and a friend's explanation.

Watch out for the Great Skul because suddenly you'll be miscasting on double 1s and 2s as well as 6s when casting at his deathstar.

I hit a friend of mine with it during our last game and watched his level 4 wizard evaporate on turn 1. For 35 points, it's an awesome buy and works against every spell except vortexes.

skyth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

skyth wrote:If the spell hits the unit, it can be transferred to another unit. No exception for template spells.

Spells that Target the unit can get bounced. out of the uber spells only PoS is a direct damage spell(and as such targets the unit)


i think the runemaw should work against all spells(and it was intended to be that way), but at the time it was written there weren't any spells that didn't directly target a unit.

Just borrowed a copy of the army book. That'll teach me to go by the wording in army builder and a friend's explanation.

GT still has his spells confused, out of PoS, Purple sun and dwellers below, only dwellers can be runemaw'd.

IIRC, the Greatskull is on doubles of any kind(might be wrong)

I am kind of curious about just how old this player is. The older he is the more likely I would want to just stomp him into the ground, but if he is fairly young then maybe he can still be saved. We used to have a player at my FLGS that was in his 50's that was a real pain to play with and a good number of people dreaded having to play with him during a local tournament.

I would wonder that too.


it is possable that he was just really lucky in his first round of gaming(natural skills)

that doesn't excuse the 4 hour thing(which could have been his idea of playing "Point denial") which means he is a duche.



most likely, D-bag that lied about his skill to buff his ranking. possably a D-bag that just has natural talant and/or textbook knowledge.

either way, still a D-bag.

NewDeal wrote:I am kind of curious about just how old this player is. The older he is the more likely I would want to just stomp him into the ground, but if he is fairly young then maybe he can still be saved. We used to have a player at my FLGS that was in his 50's that was a real pain to play with and a good number of people dreaded having to play with him during a local tournament.

He might not be 50 yet, but then again, he might. Certainly no hair of any color other than gray anywhere on his head. Not just a confused kid, in other words.

As for people who were encouraging me/us to talk to him, this will happen at some point. Call me passive-aggressive, but what I'm hoping will happen is that he'll complain about my list cheese and the conversation will proceed from there.

My ideal outcome here looks a bit like this, since I have to play him twice:
Game 1) he gets roffelstomped by me. Conversation occurs as above. Discussion ensues as to what we'd like the metagame to look like and the league's standards with regard to slowplaying, etc. An understanding of some sort is reached.
Game 2) I play a softer, all-comers list, we have a good time, order is restored. I'd still like to win, of course Possibly several beers are consumed, though this is optional.

We've got the whole semester to play the games, more or less, so it may take some time. I'll post an update here if anything happens. Thanks all for your interest.

I have a request for the OP:

Would you please provide the game as a battle report, and keep the result a secret until the report is posted? that is the kind of thing I'd love to read with a bowl of popcorn.

Grey Templar wrote:IIRC, the Greatskull is on doubles of any kind(might be wrong)

Double 1's, double 2's and double 6's.
(used to be 1's 2's and 3's).

-Matt

Grey Templar wrote:IIRC, the Greatskull is on doubles of any kind(might be wrong)

I think you're confusing it with the Hellheart which is a one use item that forces the opponent to roll on the gut magic miscast table on any double IIRC.

Didn't read all the posts so sorry If I miss this. Anything you can get or any spells that remove remain in play spells hurt ogres pretty bad if you can dispel their buffs.

Yes, but then you just hope that the basic profile of an Ogre is sufficient to wade through that.


it's a shame you can't counter dispell a dispell attempt.

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, but then you just hope that the basic profile of an Ogre is sufficient to wade through that.


it's a shame you can't counter dispell a dispell attempt.

That sounds like a horribly vicious cycle.

So... What happened?

^^

It's been three days, give it some time.

*paces*

I have to admit, poetic justice would call for this guy to get a taste of his own medicine. Still, I have to agree with previous posters and suggest taking this guy aside and pointing out that his methods don't fit the courteous atmosphere your group is trying to maintain in the gaming community. For starters, it'll remind him that he's a grown man and should act like one. If you go for the curbstomp first, talk later, you'll lose your position of strength if the dice go belly up on you or the guy turns out to actually be a skilled player.

My own group has dealt with similar situations and curbstomping the offender leads to the guy avoiding the more experienced players and specifically targeting younger, newer players. (Kinda like a board game pedophile, if you think about it) It was only after the guy was confronted outside of a game that he either changed his tune or moved on to other gaming groups.

Okay, how about now? What happened?

Anything yet? Or did he pummel you guys into oblivion too?

My guess is the plan didn't survive first agression intact

Okay I've been following this for ages now and I don't even play fantasy.

The world needs to know what happened to ogre boy : P

Almarine wrote:Okay I've been following this for ages now and I don't even play fantasy.

The world needs to know what happened to ogre boy : P

+1!

Please tell me ogre boy didn't beat them at their own game!

snake wrote:

Almarine wrote:Okay I've been following this for ages now and I don't even play fantasy.

The world needs to know what happened to ogre boy : P

+1!

Please tell me ogre boy didn't beat them at their own game!

I'm starting to think that he did, henceforth no update on the Ogre Boy situation.

I don't know weather to be happy that Ogres won or sad that a total duche bag didn't get his comuppence.

Grey Templar wrote:I don't know weather to be happy that Ogres won or sad that a total duche bag didn't get his comuppence.

This is why you can't fight explosions with bigger explosions. Everyone still ends up explody.

I've been in email contact with our subject. I anticipate Game 1 (of 2) will happen within the next couple of weeks or so. As soon as the game is over, I'll come post it here.

The minute.

The SECOND.

Cross my heart and hope to make him cry.

This... Is a very long tournament.

Man I hope somebody out there can teach this guy a lesson in proper manners.

The main problem I'm going to have here is that the Warhammer world is so hopelessly and comically gruesome and dark, so over-the-top bad, that anything less than "rip his throat out! Eat his heart!" will seem silly.

...so anyway, I'm going to say this:

Don't play the guy with vengeance as a motive. I'll take this a step further: don't do stuff with the purpose of hurting other people. Making people feel bad isn't cool. I mean, we all do stuff that's unkind now and again, but...we shouldn't. And we all know that.

This guy had his reasons for doing what he did. What he did was cruel, and you should do what you can to prevent it in the future. So talk to him!

Maybe the guy honestly doesn't understand what he's doing. Maybe his ability to relate to people is stunted for some reason. We can't blame him for that.
Or maybe the guy's got some serious depression issues, and feels like the only way to drag himself out of these bouts is to be good at his one hobby that he obsesses over too much for his own good.
Maybe his wife just died and he's trying to get on with his life, but really he's still bereaved and bitter and doesn't know what to do beyond lash out at other people.

I know all of this is ridiculous, but my point is this: People do what they do for a reason. And they think that they're reason is a good one-or else they wouldn't do it. And you can't blame someone for having poor judgement. If they had any ability to somehow improve their own judgment, they would! Who wouldn't? If any of us had any say in how reasonable and level-headed we were, we'd all be enlightened and at one with the world. Right? Right.

So, I reiterate. Talk to him. Say "hey dude, those guys didn't have any fun at all with you in those last games, and we're all kind of pissed about it."
Just see what he says! He might be like "Well, whatever, haha. I won", and then you can ask him to leave. There are plenty of people in the world who you won't be able to instill a greater sense of morality into. Unless you're a groundbreaking psychologist or something.
But he might burst into tears and be like "Aw, man, I'm sorry. Just don't kick me out. I just wanted some friends and I wanted to impress you guys".

My guess is it'll be somewhere in-between.

Of course, all of this logic means that, if you go ahead and try to crush him out of spite-that is, if you try to be cruel to him to show him that he was cruel-I won't be able to hold it against you without being a hypocrite myself.
I'll have to assume that you thought you had a good reason and all that stuff. And I'll try. I'll probably think "well, so much for the advancement of human ethics this time", and feel like this was all pointless and self-sustaining, but I'll try to understand. I hope you can, man.

C'mon. Just talk to the guy. For his sake, and for those other kid's, and your's, and mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, I'll go as far to say that I'll report this whole thread to a mod to get it locked. I don't think the spirit of this thread is at all in lines with the spirit of this forum, or of the games its based around.

...unfortunately...I don't know how to contact a mod...Curse my own non-proficiencies with computers.

@ Squash, it's not a tournament, it's a league. Goes all semester.

@ Warpsolution, You represent a large segment of opinion, which I respect without necessarily agreeing 100%. If a mod decides to lock this thread, that's certainly up to them; people can locate a similar thread on Warseer for future updates.

However, I hope you won't take such a drastic step. The theory here is to exchange opinions and ideas, and it would be frightfully ironic if you decided to stifle my expression, or mobilize others to do so, in the interest of kindness and decency. Maybe my approach is contrary to the spirit in which you play your games. I have no quarrel at all with the way you choose to play; if my approach offends you, I certainly won't use it if we ever face each other across a table. If my post on a forum offends you, absent any actual violations of stated policies, I would respectfully suggest that you voice your opinion civilly (which you have certainly done) and then go and read another thread.

@Warpsolution

If you don't like what you see its kind of like wathcing TV simply change the channel my good man. I understand the point you're getting accross but some people in this world just need a good beat down in a game to set them straight. Honestly there is no need to contact a mod because, technicly, we're not doing anything wrong. As Malleus said if this gets blocked here Ill just go over to Warseer and follow it.

I see what you're saying, but unlike a television, I can hope to influence it.
While this may all be kosher by technicality, I don't think it would take long for the thread to get locked if, say, "Ogre Boy" was on the forum.

"Some people in this world just need a good beat down..." Naw. I don't think so. Would it set him straight? Maybe. Would it feed that petty, cruel part of yourself, and degrade your morality? Yes. In a really minor way. But every inch you give is one you could have fought to keep. I hope this guy sees what he's done, and I hope that it's done in a way that won't require his teacher to see what they've done at some other point.
People shouldn't have to suffer because you want to satisfy some backwards sense of justice. I've made an ass of myself trying to do just that on more than one occasion. I'm sure plenty of us have. "Poetic justice" belongs in poems, novels, and comics.

As for being petty and cruel that explains all man kind. There are two types of people in this world those who admit they are flawed and those who dont have courage to admit that they are.

Everyone, you can deny if you want, want to see those that have it coming get theirs. I am not so kind and never have been. I have no love for power gamers and I always enjoy when a "better" gamer gives it to them.

As for morality, plainly put, is a state of mind. To some people getting drunk is imoral, while for other's its all good. It's all perception my good man as we all feel differently, and strongly, in our core believes. I, for one, am a firm believer in a eye for an eye, let the punishment fit the crime. Sure its archaic but its how I feel.

I've seen "Poetic Justice" played out in the real world plenty of times, it's called karma my good man, what goes around comes around. Sometimes it takes a person to help karma along as we are all just tools in the large scheme of things anyways.

Ok Im steping off the soap box now.

Warpsolution and others who express similar sentiments: if I talk to him and he gives me some kind of verbal finger (or just doesn't see how there was a problem), would it then be acceptable in your view to deliberately curbstomp him? This is neither a sarcastic nor a loaded question; I'm genuinely curious how you see that contingency.

If he built an army like this, he knows what he's doing. Let's face it the chance he's spent time on DakkaDakka is pretty big too. The time for talk can come after the humiliation.

Malleus: I'd bet that he almost for-sure tells you to eff off. That's the nature of this sort of thing. If this guy was considerate and (I'll jump out on a limb and guess he's not) socially competent, all of this would probably never have happened.

I still wouldn't do it though. I'd keep trying. But that's me; I'm a big Ethics type of person. I've studied it a lot, it interests me, etc. If you're not concerned about this guy's "redemption", I'd suggest you do what you must to keep you and your circle happy. Which means, I guess, deciding if putting up with him or if kicking him out and dealing with the screwy scores is a bigger problem.
Your action against him, ideally, should be to protect your state of happiness, rather than to punish him.

@Squash: I agree that he knew what he's doing with his army. That, as you pointed out, is basically obvious. What I mean is that he may not know what he's doing socially.
In some groups, people play cutthroat games, and they like it that way. The guy might not even understand what his opponents feel when they play him (I'm sure it would be too much to suggest that he's a sociopath, but something less dramatic would certainly be possible, or even probable).

@Nieto: I'll make this brief- I'm just going to defend myself once here, and that's all. If you want to further discuss morality with me, I'd suggest some private messagin'. :

- yes, people have flaws. But we can work to overcome them. We certainly won't succeed, but the act of trying is pretty awesome.

- the desire to see this sort of "justice" dealt out is pretty common. Vengeance is cool. Making the other guy pay feels good; I'll admit that. But it's certainly not a "good" thing to do. He'll probably try to do the same right back at ya'.

- Many Beliefs are a state of mind. But basic Right and Wrong are not. They're biological. It's not cool to murder people- a species that thought it was wouldn't last long. The same thing applies to hurting people in any other way. And Hammurabi's Code seems pretty badass, until you really get down there and see just what, exactly, the crime was. Once you can prove that no one individual is wholly to blame/credit for their actions (you can), the "crime" was nothing, and so the punishment should be nothing.
...but that's not to say that we shouldn't protect ourselves. Murderers go to jail, and abusive War Gamers don't get to play with us.

- Karma is cool. But no one should ever be so bold as to assume the role of the Karmic Enforcer. That's a pretty grand claim for any person. You can't say "we're all just Pawns of Fate" and then say "so take the initiative and make your destiny come true" in the same breath. You want Karma to work, you got to leave it alone. You want petty vengeance, you act. If Malleus accidentally hit this guy with his car, that's Karma. If he "accidentally" hit this guy with a bat, that's something else.

...okay.

I don't have a problem with your sentiment, but when you assert that basic right and wrong are biological, I'd love to see where you're getting that from. From my reading, such ideas are pretty grounded in social context. Small family bands will often murder strangers they come across, this has been observed even into the modern day- the reason we do not is because our society has developed rules and taboos around it. If the population density is low enough that these taboos don't need to develop, we see plenty of murderous behaviour.

Also, as someone who studies ethics (I enjoy it too) you will understand that a person's ethics are personal to them, and that if they feel justice is important and can support it (the social contract idea certainly makes an argument for justice) then it is not unethical for them to enforce it, even in the fairly mild and (can I say) pretty humourous fashion presented here.
I mean, I broadly agree with you, I just think you're going too far in trying to put forward your point of view as the correct one.

Warpsolution wrote:I'm a big Ethics type of person. I've studied it a lot, it interests me, etc.

I don't like when people throw academics into gaming discussion. People pay more attention to the language than the content, and assume the point is valid because it's supported by someone who uses professional terminology. For instance if someone less than perused your post they wouldn't have realized that there's no such thing as 'big Ethics', just as there's no such thing as an extremely historic event, or something very unique. Similarly the reader might take at face value your assumption that ethics is a proper noun, inflating its value. It's even possible they wouldn't of realized that we're not talking about ethics, we're talking about morality.

Ethics refers to the application of morality in a community - not the moral decision itself. A moral decision is more or less a personal determination of right or wrong. For instance. You shoot my dog. You made a moral judgement. I'm forced to make a moral judgement myself, should I call the police or shoot you back? I make the decision to call the police and you are charged for first degree Dog Murder. There the jury is given an ethical decision, specifically this is called meta-ethics.

If we were talking about the league organizers, it would be ethics. If we were talking about the FLGS staff, the GW writers, or a mob of angry gamers with torches and pitchforks it would be ethics. We're talking about morals. Ogre Boy just shot someone's dog, and he decided not to call the police. Obviously you already know this though, after all, you've studied this a lot.

More relevantly. I love a good revenge story, and seeing as how this doesn't involve anyone actually getting hurt, I don't see the harm.

Squash wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:I'm a big Ethics type of person. I've studied it a lot, it interests me, etc.

... For instance if someone less than perused your post they wouldn't have realized that there's no such thing as 'big Ethics', just as there's no such thing as an extremely historic event, or something very unique....

I don't believe he's claiming anything of the sort, just that he's "big" on ethics. He enjoys it. He's studied it a lot. It interests him. Etc. Why is this devolving into a discussion of semantics? Especially when Warpsolution requested any further discussion on the morality of the situation be relegated to PMs?

I smell promethium.

The topic. Stay on it. And please do be polite.

Thanks!

Oh yeah. If you try to be reasonable with him, and he refuses to listen to htat reason.

either kick him out of the club,

or organize in such a way that he just stops winning with prejiduce

This includes tooling specifically to beat him, even for tournaments.

In fairness, you wouldn't want to kick him out of the club for something like that. He'd interpret it as being kicked out for winning a bunch of games.

nothing unfair about that. His interpretation doesn't matter. He was a slowplaying jerkface that clubbed baby seals.

Alright back on topic, so when is someone going to play against good ole Ogre Boy? As I am curious to hear what happens. Maybe this weekend a game will be played?

nieto666 wrote:Alright back on topic, so when is someone going to play against good ole Ogre Boy? As I am curious to hear what happens. Maybe this weekend a game will be played?

Just be patient. It was already said it might be weeks before anything happens.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Squash wrote:Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Ancient Klingon proverb.

sorry, the Trekkie in me couldnt resist.

Revenge is a dish best served with a lot of mayonnaise and maybe some of those little cheese cubes on sticks.

A few eyedrops in his drink, when he's not looking would be great.

I do hope something positive comes out of this. I've been thinking about starting fantasy, and if Either of those games happened, I'd be angry enough to not want to play. Esp, in the first 10 games.

It is just a game, after all. A lot of people seem to forget that Warhammer is not real life and there's nothing really important at stake.
Malleus, you should remember that as you and your mates "curbstomp" ogre boy. So long as that is kept in mind I don't think the rest really matters.

Also be vary wary of ogre deathstars. They contain copious amounts of characters who refuse to die with even more ogres who you have to weedle through. I recommend cannons followed by the Waralter pinning technique, and finally (if there is still a turn left and a unit left) a coup de grace using a massive hoard of halberdiers.

Dumb question incoming: Couldn't a feedback scroll be a solution to his crazy unit buffs?

Not when he 1 die casts all of them.

yes, feedback scrolls make ogres laugh.

ooo, you wounded my 4 wound caster who can cast a spell to heal himself or probably has the Bloodcleaver to get wounds back by killing your RnF.

Some quick thoughts:

Ogres are very reliant on hand to hand to do damage and are really good at it. You sould do your damage in the shooting phase. For this I recomend Cannons and hell blaster volley guns.

Ogre players will tend to take those yheti models to come on from the back board edge to remove said artilery. If I wanted to prove a point I would create an unbroken line of my really cheap infantry across my back board edge. Nothing says F-you better than wasting 200 points to simply eliminate a tactic against your army.

Do not go head to head with ogre characters. The dudes can be equiped very solidly and by nigh unkillable by empire.

Magic heavy. I would go offensive magic heavy. Probably death for purple sun and the sniping bjuna spell. I might also consider going warrior priest heavy. I have not seen it run but I believe I talked to an empire player about how warrior priests add dispell dice for each one. Take 5 of them and watch his bone cracker magic go poof.

You do also have to watch out for the panic test at -2 I believe. Make sure you take a bsb and a general and keep it all close enough to pass the tests that you cannot block with magic defense.

I would avoid the steam tank as he has too much that can kill or disable it easily.

Rolling noobs at the game store is not cool. I can forgive undestating your quality as trying to be humble but then trashing the noobs and making fun of them is not cool.. This is a game so I believe your response is correct tool a list and trach him.

BrPrometheus wrote:
Ogres are very reliant on hand to hand to do damage and are really good at it. You sould do your damage in the shooting phase. For this I recomend Cannons and hell blaster volley guns.

A cannon reliably kills less than 1 Ogre per shot. You will have 2 turns of shooting, on average, before the Ogres get locked in combat and are untargetable.

BrPrometheus wrote:Ogre players will tend to take those yheti models to come on from the back board edge to remove said artilery. If I wanted to prove a point I would create an unbroken line of my really cheap infantry across my back board edge. Nothing says F-you better than wasting 200 points to simply eliminate a tactic against your army.

The unit you're talking about is a Gorger, and they're really less than useful in 8th, since the first turn they can attack a war machine is T3, and if Ogres aren't in combat by then, the game is over already.

Badtoof, warrior priests do indeed generate a DD per turn. Not only that, arch lectors (a lord-level priest) generate TWO each. Not only that, they (priests and lectors) give any unit they join hatred against all enemies, allow me to take some flagellants as core (usually rare) and the models are some of the coolest human character models available from GW. I'm pretty sure I would still take the same number of priests in my list even if they didn't generate DD at all... since they do, they're an insanely good buy.

I'm torn.
My Canadian side says: Pull his jersey over his head, give him a couple of good uppercuts and then walk to the penalty box with your head held high.
My Swiss side says: Be diplomatic, find a solution that benifits everyone and use the situation to open a discussion about what kind of games that people in the League want to play.

I don't totaly agree with Warpsolution but he makes a good point. The idea of a "personal crusade (for vengence) against Ogre Boy" isn't the right way and not for the right reasons.
I can suggest going back to the Hockey comparison. Like you said being an Enforcer is not about beating people up, it's about protecting the rookies and/or the players that aren't as physical.
I can see that your hearts in the right place by the description of your plan. Game 1, Game 2 ect. Make sure Ogre Boy knows why you are doing it too.
Maybe invite the noobs to stand on your side of the table so Ogre Boy know why you are giving him a beatdown. I think it would go down better if everyone knows it's not personal but on principle.
This might not work, if he is a real douche then he might just mock them more for needing an "older brother" to fight their battles for them. If he does do that then at least you know he is a lost cause and can kick him without feeling guilty about it.

Stupid question: What if Ogre Boy does read this thread and switches his list to compensate? You have a back-up plan? Unless you can build a list that can beatdown Ogres regardless of what he takes then you should write several lists to make sure.

Good luck, aye!

Stonewyrm

No one is ever set straight by a good beatdown. No bully in the history of humanity has been smacked around and decided to become a prophet of love. People getting smacked around is what makes people bullies (or at least one of the things). That's why they call it a cycle. Not because a kid gets abused and gets on his bi-cycle to preach tolerance.

DukeRustfield wrote:No one is ever set straight by a good beatdown. No bully in the history of humanity has been smacked around and decided to become a prophet of love. People getting smacked around is what makes people bullies (or at least one of the things). That's why they call it a cycle. Not because a kid gets abused and gets on his bi-cycle to preach tolerance.

Germany and Japan? Now two of the most pacifistic countries in the world?

edit, reatard moment.

Stupid question: What if Ogre Boy does read this thread and switches his list to compensate? You have a back-up plan? Unless you can build a list that can beatdown Ogres regardless of what he takes then you should write several lists to make sure.

Not a stupid question, but I'm not concerned. I'm pretty sure the hardest ogre list ever would lose to the kind of list I'm envisioning, and lose hard. But if he beats me, then he does. I don't have a whole bunch of ego tied up in this. I generally lose more than I win, and while I don't love losing, there's much more important things in life than plastic dolls on a tabletop.

... or even metal dolls on a tabletop, though that's a closer call

There isn't much varity in the Ogre book.

pretty much the only variation in the book is with Character loadout and the combination of Leadbeltchers, scrappies, gorgers, and giants.

the other option is massive units of Ogres vs many units of 6ish ogres.

I'm taking you down Empire Boy.

Bweeep, Bweeep, Bweeep.

the jig is up.



My reccomendation is Triple Hellblaster.

and quit picking on the newbies.

Seems 'Ogreboy' Travels quite a ways to play in the league... maybe his attitude is due to jetlag?

Lordhat wrote:Seems 'Ogreboy' Travels quite a ways to play in the league... maybe his attitude is due to jetlag?

QFT

Oh Jeez, here he comes.

I know, I'll hide behind Warpsolution! his ethics will surely get me out of this mess!

that can't be the same guy unless the country flags are really screwed up.

Australia and the US are far enough apart we can't really say your close to the border like what happens with Canada.

This thread is Epic, I can't wait for the battle report.

I would take 2-3 mortars just for the bullstar unit, there is nothing like the face of an opponent as he watches his 700+ unit get eaten by 150+ points.

The Grundel wrote:Beat him...




...up in the parking lot.

Pael wrote:This thread is Epic, I can't wait for the battle report.

I would take 2-3 mortars just for the bullstar unit, there is nothing like the face of an opponent as he watches his 700+ unit get eaten by 150+ points.

are these the same morters that are Str3 and as such will be needing 5s to wound except under the template where it will 2+ and has a 1/3 chance of killing an ogre?

Morters are scary to regular T3 infantry, not T4, 3 wound, infantry that could potentially be even tougher.

Squash wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:No one is ever set straight by a good beatdown. No bully in the history of humanity has been smacked around and decided to become a prophet of love. People getting smacked around is what makes people bullies (or at least one of the things). That's why they call it a cycle. Not because a kid gets abused and gets on his bi-cycle to preach tolerance.

Germany and Japan? Now two of the most pacifistic countries in the world?

Forgetting that war that came before it? WWI led to WWII. Our smackdown of bully Germany resulted in the single biggest loss of civilian life in the history of the planet. Good example! But you can't remotely call them pacifistic since there isn't much going on. It's not like Europe is at war with each other like they had been on and off over the prior millenia. That had to do with the EU and economic opportunities, not killing people. Everyone was an aggressor at some point in Europe. Japan gets pissy about islands with China and such and still visits its war shrines that irks the Chinese to no end. And they do actually have a military. But they were invaded and their constution was forcibly changed. If the equivalent could have been done without dropping atomic bombs and killing tens of millions fire bombing, you better believe it would have been done.

And obviously that opportunity exists with this player. Just seems an angry teenage response to an angry teenager.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Squash wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:No one is ever set straight by a good beatdown. No bully in the history of humanity has been smacked around and decided to become a prophet of love. People getting smacked around is what makes people bullies (or at least one of the things). That's why they call it a cycle. Not because a kid gets abused and gets on his bi-cycle to preach tolerance.

Germany and Japan? Now two of the most pacifistic countries in the world?

Forgetting that war that came before it? WWI led to WWII. Our smackdown of bully Germany resulted in the single biggest loss of civilian life in the history of the planet. Good example! But you can't remotely call them pacifistic since there isn't much going on. It's not like Europe is at war with each other like they had been on and off over the prior millenia. That had to do with the EU and economic opportunities, not killing people. Everyone was an aggressor at some point in Europe. Japan gets pissy about islands with China and such and still visits its war shrines that irks the Chinese to no end. And they do actually have a military. But they were invaded and their constution was forcibly changed. If the equivalent could have been done without dropping atomic bombs and killing tens of millions fire bombing, you better believe it would have been done.

And obviously that opportunity exists with this player. Just seems an angry teenage response to an angry teenager.

Dude have you been to Germany? It's a country of tree huggin hippies and drunks, you cant get more pacifistic then that.

Also keep in mind that Germany and Japan didn't just turn around overnight. There was a very long period of rebuilding, restructuring, and dare I say, rehabilitation after the war, for both of them.

Totally

both countries were so shell shocked they had to be treated for that before they could be made pacifists.


for all intents and purposes, the Germany of today is a different country from the one that existed before WW2. the only thing that survived the war was the people,the country, literally, went through an Exterminatus.

Japanese Fanaticism for their Emperor was extraordinary, but the Emperor's belife in winning the war was shattered by the Atomic bomb. when the Emperor gave up the rest of the country did too. of course it took a few days for them to realize that Hiroshima and Nagazaki were actually gone. if we had dropped the bomb on Tokyo and killed Hirohito they wouldn't have surrendered and the only Japanese People left alive would be Japanese Americans and any PoWs. the Atomic bomb actually saved most of the Japanese populace, and 1 million American troops, from certain death.

In hindsight it was silly for me to bring it up in the first place. I don't want this thread getting closed, so let's just switch back to topic (rules-fu and flagrant game abuses) or sit quietly and wait for an update, because I really want to know what happens.

Grey Templar wrote: if we had dropped the bomb on Tokyo

Point of order: Tokyo was essentially destroyed. Multiple bombing raids hit it, in some circumstances starting firestorms. The descriptions I've read were.....bad.

Edit: Its funny that the thread brings up the reconstruction of Japan and Germany after WWII. I read a book on the reconstruction of each for one of my classes; if anybody really cares, I can try to dig out the titles. Still, the thing that struck me most about Japan is that the vets were treated eerily similar to how Americans treated Vietnam vets. Also, there was a radio station that, three times a day, had a program for a half-hour or hour dedicated to simply re-uniting people separated by the war.

The sobering, and sad, part is that it ran for over 20 years. I want to say 26 years, but I can't remember for a fact.

Squash wrote:In hindsight it was silly for me to bring it up in the first place. I don't want this thread getting closed, so let's just switch back to topic (rules-fu and flagrant game abuses) or sit quietly and wait for an update, because I really want to know what happens.

I'll second this.

Sadly I don't play WHFB...I do want to get into painting some models up though, my D&D friends want better miniatures, and the green knight alone is awesome. Love how this went into Japan and WWII...cause at least for germany that was the "help them when they're down" method everyone's been mentioning rather than kicking his ass...But I for one agree. Having played most of my games against kind people who are into good strategy and the luck of the dice without the loss of cash craps usually has, playing against even one guy who just so utterly crushed me emotionally and physically...I would so love to own him. Sadly tau need serious help against blood angels...and my tactics need a rewrite lol. So yea, post a battle report, and destroy him. at least once. then let him know why you did. maybe he'll learn maybe he wont, but it worked for germany after WWII...as opposed to just hammering him to dust and saying "deal with it" which is what we did after WWI...

Im not sure if its to late but as much as i hate to admit it finding dirty tricks is my specialty. first off one trick for stopping his wizard is a general/wizard/preist(can heal himself) w arabian carpet and aldrads casket, this allows you to trail behind him and capture spells, next i personally love having 3 great cannons because of their bounce and wound d6 rule but you will have to put a unit BEHIND it so gorgers cant getto close, another is kami kazi his strongest character with an engineer w van horstmans speculum even though the engineer will die his close combat monster now sucks. both ideas are quite humiliating if done right "my great warlord can take on ... nadda" also using mounties "3 units of 5 outriders w champ and hochland long rifle although not as great because of only s 4 hit on 3s when picking out characters or standerds and stuff, also one thing that has made people crazy is when units of circle night charge because 1+ natural arm save although i know it would be modified and s 6 on charge, lastlythough i do want to clarify that i do not field these unless i want to get some real payback... mounties and cannons are te exception

tau_etheral wrote:first off one trick for stopping his wizard is a general/wizard/preist(can heal himself) w arabian carpet and aldrads casket, this allows you to trail behind him and capture spells,

Both the Arabyan (seriously GW?) Carpet and Casket of Sorcery are enchanted items, so the same character couldn't have both. I suppose you could just use a pegasus for the flying result. Why would you want to be behind the ogre wizard though? You'll be too far away to cast the pilfered spell on your own troops.

next i personally love having 3 great cannons because of their bounce and wound d6 rule but you will have to put a unit BEHIND it so gorgers cant getto close,

I think the cannons were discussed in this thread. Generally they're great at taking out really expensive monstrous infantry, but against ogres it's hard to make the cannon cost worthwhile, unless he's bringing a giant or maneaters.

another is kami kazi his strongest character with an engineer w van horstmans speculum even though the engineer will die his close combat monster now sucks.

Wait, are you saying the swap change lasts after the challenge is complete? That doesn't sound right. It says that it lasts until the end of the challenge.

also using mounties "3 units of 5 outriders w champ and hochland long rifle although not as great because of only s 4 hit on 3s when picking out characters or standerds and stuff,

Ordinarily I'd back this one up, but against Ogres, their wound count is going to be too tough for snipers. I do think outriders aren't a bad idea though - although the high ogre speed could be an issue for even fast cav.

also one thing that has made people crazy is when units of circle night charge because 1+ natural arm save although i know it would be modified and s 6 on charge,

Again, ordinarily I'm with you here, but with gut magic Strength 6-8 impact hits, 5-7 regular strength attacks, and thunderstomp, it's not a good environment for units that rely on good armour saves. There could be a way to make the knights work in this situation though.

Malleus is now my hero. He used mama bear mode and ref. hockey within a few sentences of each other in the same post. I wish I could provide some kind of help. So I'll just offer this, good luck. Perhaps, also find some buxom street-walker to come in during his match with you. Depending on how bad or good it goes send different signals to the street walker. Make sure she has some venereal diseases. But make sure she is good for it and not some hideous she-beast.

Then, when the getting is good and Ogre Boy is clutching his side in pain, because of the manly beating you are giving him, have the street walker completely demasculinize [sp?] him.

Make him an eunuch.

However, should you lose..

She will sleep with Ogre Boy and he will contract something horrible, something terrible. I'm thinking Warts.

Good luck.

and as far as stealing the Ogre spells,

go ahead. they can, with the exception of Bonecruncher and Braingobbler, only be cast on OGRE units


Ogres are units in the OK book that arn't Gnoblars, Scrappies, Gorgers, Yhetees or Gia-nts.

When your dog poops on the carpet.

You can't punish them for it 2 weeks later.

They have no idea why you're beating them with your shoe yelling "bad dog."

I'm wondering if ogreboy(ogreoldman?) has a short memory.

Game one is TODAY! Watch for a batrep over in that section of the forum.

Ah, so you're finally getting it on with him then?

Erm... I mean playing against him

Report posted in the appropriate forum. I'll post some pictures if I get around to it, but it's not a complex game from the movement point of view. Enjoy!

I'll add to this post to say that a conversation about list cheese and other tactics did ensue after this game was over. I raised it this way: by apologizing for having brought such a rock-hard list and suggesting that I'd be open to an agreement for our second game (still pending) on how to do lists. I mentioned that I had brought the list I had because I was expecting some kind of cheese from him, in light of his list in his games vs. our WoC player.

His response was that he'd do the same thing again, the same way, for the same reason, given an opportunity.

While I still don't agree with his point of view, I think I understand his situation a little bit better. As a player of what you'd have to call an underpowered army, his sense is that he has to run his best list, and have his best day, to ever have a chance at winning in a competitive environment. I continue to believe his response to this problem is unwarranted, but I do recognize the problem; I played empire in 7th, after all. It doesn't resolve all outstanding issues, particularly the slow play, but I have a better idea where he's coming from, and I think he has a better idea where I'm coming from as well. I'll say, to his credit, that he didn't complain about the tank, the speculum, or any of the rest of it. In fact, he asked me to bring the same list again (with an additional 500 points) for our next game. I'm happy to oblige. He's a powergamer, true, but he's not a whiner when others do unto him, and I respect that.

So...wait. From what I understand, you told him about all the crap he was pulling, and he basically told you he doesn't give a flying @#$& about what you have to say and given the chance he would do it all again, playing noobs, lying about skill level, stalling the game. In response to this he says he did what he did because his army is underpowered, and you...forgave him because of this?

I could be wrong in understanding what you wrote, and I apologize if this is the case, but it sounds like there was no progress in fixing things. He knows you people don't like him, but he doesn't really care.

Yeah...hang on a tick...by "do the same thing again, the same way" does that include lying about his skill level and stalling games, or just the part where he brought beardy lists? Hell, I'm sure that he wants you to bring the same list next game so he'll know what you're bringing and ramp up his own cheese accordingly.

This guy sounds like a douche on multiple levels, so I guess I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "I get where he's coming from". If I saw a guy randomly kick a dog, and someone told me "He got bit by a dog when he was a kid, so I know where he's coming from", I'd still want the guy to stop kicking dogs...know what I mean?

Asking him to bring the same list does not mean that it's to take advantage of it.

Back when I was playing 4th edition 40k, I had the most fun playing the 'cheesy' lists. I thought the game was more fun with the more units out there that actually had a bite. If I had the opportunity to play against that sort of list, I would be all for it and I wouldn't have complained if I faced that sort of list. Instead, I would have been happy to. If I encountered someone using a power list, I would encourage them to bring it again so I can bring a similar list that I enjoy playing.

Necroshea wrote:So...wait. From what I understand, you told him about all the crap he was pulling, and he basically told you he doesn't give a flying @#$& about what you have to say and given the chance he would do it all again, playing noobs, lying about skill level, stalling the game. In response to this he says he did what he did because his army is underpowered, and you...forgave him because of this?

I could be wrong in understanding what you wrote, and I apologize if this is the case, but it sounds like there was no progress in fixing things. He knows you people don't like him, but he doesn't really care.

Agree. What the heck?

If he's being an unsportsmanlike , ask him to leave. If not, kick him out of the league or refuse to play him.

biccat wrote:

Necroshea wrote:So...wait. From what I understand, you told him about all the crap he was pulling, and he basically told you he doesn't give a flying @#$& about what you have to say and given the chance he would do it all again, playing noobs, lying about skill level, stalling the game. In response to this he says he did what he did because his army is underpowered, and you...forgave him because of this?

I could be wrong in understanding what you wrote, and I apologize if this is the case, but it sounds like there was no progress in fixing things. He knows you people don't like him, but he doesn't really care.

Agree. What the heck?

If he's being an unsportsmanlike , ask him to leave. If not, kick him out of the league or refuse to play him.

I didn't forgive him, in the sense that I still think his conduct was unjustified, particularly the slow play. I'm certainly not going to sit around festering at him forever, particularly not now that I've made my point. I'm not very old, but I have learned that I am not capable of fixing people. I gave Ogre Boy a fair chance to see it my way. He does not. This is unfortunate but not devastating.

I hope that makes things clearer. I do not, repeat, do NOT endorse any of the things that caused the grievance that's the topic of this thread. However, in terms of 1) using my game against him to express my displeasure and 2) following it up with a conversation about it, I accomplished the most I could hope to do toward resolving it. If it remains unresolved despite my best efforts, then it's up to someone else to try. Certainly my desire to bring about his personal comeuppance has gone a long way toward being satisfied.

Next time, I'll just ruin him again

Was the store owners notified of his behavior? I mean a tourny is a tourny, but I'm sure your FLGS doesn't foster that sort of behavior, and wouldn't be above just giving him his money back (if he paid) and booting him.

If it seems like I'm out for blood, I guess it's because I sort of am. It's been stated in this forum that aggressively responding to gakkers like that does nothing, and eye for an eye does not work. Throughout my entire life, I have found that it does. If someone thinks they can get away with something, and nobody does anything about it, they continue. If someone tries to say, pick on someone at school, and that person responds with a fist and the offender experiencing the taste of dirt and blood, it stops there, and he usually goes on to see if he can find weaker fare. Or the victim who gave him a thrashing could see it for what it is, and after said thrashing explain the logic behind it, and the two could possibly become friends and the once gakker might learn that things like that don't fly. This kind of situation does happen, and I've seen it.

Ya know, this entire thread + battle report has made me realize what this is. It's mob mentality. Everyone has joined the side of Malleus against this unknown person referred to as ogre boy. Has anyone taken a gander at the Bat Rep? Ogre Boy doesn't know how to play ogres, his list is proof. Maybe he wasn't lying about his skill level. We don't know this person, we weren't there. Yet, many in this thread have suggested seriously harming this unknown person just because of say so. Heck Malleus even got reinvited to play against him at higher points despite the wailing he received. I think a little less high horsing may be appropriate.

Can someone post a link to the Battle Report?

Surtur wrote:Ya know, this entire thread + battle report has made me realize what this is. It's mob mentality. Everyone has joined the side of Malleus against this unknown person referred to as ogre boy. Has anyone taken a gander at the Bat Rep? Ogre Boy doesn't know how to play ogres, his list is proof. Maybe he wasn't lying about his skill level. We don't know this person, we weren't there. Yet, many in this thread have suggested seriously harming this unknown person just because of say so. Heck Malleus even got reinvited to play against him at higher points despite the wailing he received. I think a little less high horsing may be appropriate.

That's a pretty fantastic point, Surtur.

While I'm not calling Malleus a liar/saying this didn't happen, But I think that we should maybe back off a little bit; there's only so much we can say about an event we didn't see/hear/experience firsthand.

This is the point I was trying to make with my after-battle post. The incidents I described happened as described, and they were not ok. They made me want to destroy Ogre Boy on the table (I shall repeat, on the table), and I stand by that. So I went and did it.

I don't feel bad about that, but I equally don't feel bad that I didn't get him thrown out of the league or cut his throat while he slept, or whatever.

I've appreciate everybody's interest in this story, but I think Surtur has a point about the degree of rage that happened (possibly contributed to by me, which I regret if so). In the final analysis, this is a game we play with dolls and dice, and while abusive conduct shouldn't be simply ignored on that basis, it should be dealt with in context, and in proportion. I hope we all agree on that (though we may disagree on what "in proportion" means).

Malleus, I respect that you seemed level headed about this whole thing after the game and talked to him about his behaviors and such. I have a problem with the comments that suggested smashing his models, beating him in the parking lot and castrating him.

Surtur wrote:Malleus, I respect that you seemed level headed about this whole thing after the game and talked to him about his behaviors and such. I have a problem with the comments that suggested smashing his models, beating him in the parking lot and castrating him.

plus that last one's just gross; I don't think any revenge is worth touching someone's balls.

plus that last one's just gross; I don't think any revenge is worth touching someone's balls.

Here Here.
I half agree with whats been done. The correct method for dealing with these issues is to sit them down, tell them the way of the world, and hope they change their ways. Alas, sometimes this is not so, and we have to accept the fact that some people in this world are just irrevocably bad inside, and that no amount of talking will shift their position. These people react better to a hammer to the head (metaphorically of course ) and need to have sense beaten into them. I dont like this method, but its just how things work (much like gravity, damn it to physics hell)

Been reading this with interest, Pleased to see you spoke to him, but personaly I think he should have been booted from the tournament simply on the cheating rule. In any game it's not acceptable imo. Been subjected to it twice personaly in tournaments and a couple of friends. These weren't important with big sparkly prizes, but still it cost decent people a shot at the next round. Pleased to say the cheaters got their asses handed to them the next round when word got round what they pulled.
The guy really needs to see that especially against new people he did wrong. He would do the same again? Pathetic, he might want to powergame and build a powerful list, sure go for it. But theres a big difference between that and cheating. Glad to see he lost though, what goes around comes around.

Surtur wrote: Has anyone taken a gander at the Bat Rep? Ogre Boy doesn't know how to play ogres, his list is proof. Maybe he wasn't lying about his skill level.

This.
As much as i was with everyone when i started reading the thread (all of 30 mins ago ) after reading the bat rep, this guy doesnt really know what hes doing by the looks of things.
However, this does in no way allow for the fact that he is a douche who played like a douche and deserved to be ppulled up on it.
@Malleus, im very glad you beat him (as he deserved) and that you had a chat with him afterwards. Im not surprised in the least that he doesnt apologise for what he did, he seems like that sort of person unfortunately, but at least you tried. Good on you man

Sure, the nature of the thread was generally negative towards Ogre Boy, but the real problem here, IMHO, is that if he was somehow causing trouble or somesuch in the tournament setting, he should really just be made aware of it and/or kicked out. I mean, even if his list is crap, and even if he really somehow doesn't mean harm, if his attitude just isn't in the spirit of the tournament he really shouldn't be there. Regardless of who he is as a person, if he's causing trouble in the tournament or with the players in the tournament he should be out...

I will agree his list is utter crap. Hunters? Really? WS 10 Tyrant? Meh

@ Malleus.
Can you truly blame people for being negative after describing him as the type of person who cheats on noobs. Some crimes just attract hate.

Okay, I think I'll jump back into the thick of things.

HoverBoy's right; some things seem more unforgivable than others. And that's really quite a shame. There are certainly levels of suffering (and jerk-ness), but how anyone is supposed to measure them down to the line is beyond me.

If I may (I may), I think I can offer a little perspective on this guy's mindset:

Competitve games are psychological. I mean, in a tournament setting, if your opponent, say, charges a unit you don't care about, exposing his flank to something meatier, do you advise otherwise?
Well, what if he forgets to declare a charge?
Clearly misreads the tape measurer and doesn't cast his Uber Spell?

See what I mean? It's a sort of slippery slope. I try not to point out things like the first example; it's a tactical game, after all. But the other two are silly mistakes that anyone could make on a bad day. Still...they, too, are part of the game.

And then you get into the real mind-games. Where does reasonable competitive spirit end and being a jerk, not in the game, but in general, begin? Poker is a great example where the line is pretty damn grey. Magic: the Gathering (...fantasy poker) is another.
So, I would guess that this guy seems to think that this sort of thing (lying about his experience level or whatever) is okay, since it's a competition.

Really, it's just an extreme example of a spectrum we all know. Some people like Power Scrolls with their Dreaded 13th, and the Cupped Hand with their Slann Mage Priest, or Teclis...at all. Other people say that those things are jerk moves, and that you shouldn't sacrifice fun for victory.

It's a hard line to draw. I mean, we can all agree that this guy stepped over that line, but by how much?

I am 100% positive that this guy or any guy can be changed with words. But they have to be the right ones. And that takes a great deal of patience, understanding, and knowledge. Human philosophy, psychology, and communication just ain't there yet.

Don't worry, though. We'll get there.

Okay.